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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Sedious Bloke
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Posted - 2009.01.10 02:56:00 -
[451]
Fixing is good
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.10 09:52:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Yaay
Where in empire can you do those sorts of things, and in timely fashion. A considerable collection of agent missions take more than a 15 minute window which 0.0 ratting allows. Empire lacks Moons, Legit loot, faction spawns, commercial value, Renters, and a considerable number of other valuse that 0.0 already holds. 0.0 does not need a boost, although empire does need a nerf.
1. You just claimed that your numbers represent the final culmination of a full days ratting in an already properly chained system.
You cannot then come in and claim that "0.0 ratting allows production in 15 minute windows". It takes a lot of time to properly chain a system. Certainly more than 15 minutes. If someone is chaining in front of you, they're doing work for you that you have to consider into your calculations of profitability.
2. Empire does not lack "legit loot". Though i have no clue what it means
3. Faction spawns: Only in delve
4. Commercial Value: Are you actually saying that there is more profit to be made in 0.0 selling than there is in empire? Seriously? There is a reason that the markets are larger in empire.
5. Renters are not personal income. Nor is it income that draws people into 0.0. Its its actually a cost that they have to pay to the people who already own the space.
6. "other values not defined"... because they don't exist
7. Saying that empire needs a nerf is the exact same thing as saying that 0.0 needs a buff. After all that time bloviating about how its so easy to make money you turn around and say "oh yea, but you totally don't make enough more money than in empire and it doesn't support enough people" which is what everyone else has been saying this entire damned time!
Quote:
25 Mil an hr for rat spawns is an average day for anybody with a clue, properly chained systems reward upwards of 40 mil an hour per 1 person they can hold. Typically 8-10 belts sustain 1 person who's not totally emo selfish. I ratted in a system with multiple people, so those numbers declined down to what probably was around 25 an hr.
So what you're actually saying is that your real production wasn't 56m isk/hour or 75m isk/hour as you previously claimed, but it was actually one half to one third of those claims?
addendum: I am going to guess that you don't consider hauling time into your profit calculations do you?
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Astria Tiphareth
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.01.10 11:37:00 -
[453]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 10/01/2009 11:39:01 I don't even spend serious time in 0.0 and want to see this improved (perhaps because then I might). Supported.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Solutions * Add game mechanics that favor quick hit-and-run tactics. * Make it beneficial for small gangs to roam and patrol own space.
Some time ago I suggested one mechanic that might work for this. It might be food for thought for someone. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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LaserX
Legion of Steel Lions
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Posted - 2009.01.10 15:23:00 -
[454]
Supported. ;) |
Yaay
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.10 18:01:00 -
[455]
Edited by: Yaay on 10/01/2009 18:05:52 Edited by: Yaay on 10/01/2009 18:01:42
Originally by: Goumindong
So what you're actually saying is that your real production wasn't 56m isk/hour or 75m isk/hour as you previously claimed, but it was actually one half to one third of those claims?
addendum: I am going to guess that you don't consider hauling time into your profit calculations do you?
I believe i said bounty times. And as for hauling, you mean to that station in system where I sell things. 0.0 markets ftw. Not everyone relies on Jita for profits.
Quote: 1. You just claimed that your numbers represent the final culmination of a full days ratting in an already properly chained system.
You cannot then come in and claim that "0.0 ratting allows production in 15 minute windows". It takes a lot of time to properly chain a system. Certainly more than 15 minutes. If someone is chaining in front of you, they're doing work for you that you have to consider into your calculations of profitability.
Team work allows for system chains, so yes, 15 minutes of time logged in is feasible. Again, teamwork, not I pwn selfishness.
Whether the system is or is not properly chained does not negate the fact that you can log in for 15 minutes and do something, where as most empire agents require more time.
0.0 markets have higher profit margins due to scarcity. Empire markets offer quicker turnarounds. If you're not a price gouging git, or even if you are, 0.0 markets are nice k.
It's the Economy Stupid |
Yaay
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.10 18:12:00 -
[456]
Edited by: Yaay on 10/01/2009 18:18:26 Edited by: Yaay on 10/01/2009 18:15:41 Edited by: Yaay on 10/01/2009 18:14:39
Quote: Originally by: Goumindong
So what you're actually saying is that your real production wasn't 56m isk/hour or 75m isk/hour as you previously claimed, but it was actually one half to one third of those claims?
addendum: I am going to guess that you don't consider hauling time into your profit calculations do you?
I believe i said bounty times. And as for hauling, you mean to that station in system where I sell things. 0.0 markets ftw. Not everyone relies on Jita for profits.
Quote:
Quote:1. You just claimed that your numbers represent the final culmination of a full days ratting in an already properly chained system.
You cannot then come in and claim that "0.0 ratting allows production in 15 minute windows". It takes a lot of time to properly chain a system. Certainly more than 15 minutes. If someone is chaining in front of you, they're doing work for you that you have to consider into your calculations of profitability.
Team work allows for system chains, so yes, 15 minutes of time logged in is feasible if your team is working that system all day. Again, teamwork, not I pwn selfishness.
Whether the system is or is not properly chained does not negate the fact that you can log in for 15 minutes and do something, where as most empire agents require more time.
0.0 markets have higher profit margins due to scarcity. Empire markets offer quicker turnarounds. If you're not a price gouging git, or even if you are, 0.0 markets are nice k.
Quote: 5. Renters are not personal income. Nor is it income that draws people into 0.0. Its its actually a cost that they have to pay to the people who already own the space.
6. "other values not defined"... because they don't exist
7. Saying that empire needs a nerf is the exact same thing as saying that 0.0 needs a buff. After all that time bloviating about how its so easy to make money you turn around and say "oh yea, but you totally don't make enough more money than in empire and it doesn't support enough people" which is what everyone else has been saying this entire damned time!
Last I checked, moon mining and renters often go to alliance programs such as capital replacements. So while the income is not directly in your wallet, the effects are certainly significant to the average 0.0 player. Not to mention that renting opens doors to smaller empire entities that could not practically hold space for themselves while reaping the rewards of 0.0.
Other values include things like complexes, 0.0 agents and pirate faction gear/ships "hello phantasm/nightmare, rattlesnake... etc" and those in space cosmos areas that pay out quite well. Not to mention mining, drugs, and trade routes into 0.0 space that pay the most of any in game.
Empire getting a nerf isn't the same as saying 0.0 needs a boost. One forces more inflationary pressure and outrageousness into the game, the other does not. This game cannot sustain it's economy forever if the faucets do not get turned off rather than increased. This is an age old problem in all MMOs that has truely ruined them. When everyone becomes wealthy, it loses meaning, there is a reason to have class warfare.
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.10 18:50:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Yaay I know hardly any alliance or even if there is one that has died in the past year due to financial ruin and an inability to Muster ships for fights.
RISE.
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Yaay
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.10 19:13:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Draygo Korvan
Originally by: Yaay I know hardly any alliance or even if there is one that has died in the past year due to financial ruin and an inability to Muster ships for fights.
RISE.
they died for many reasons, money for the average player wasn't one. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.10 22:04:00 -
[459]
Originally by: Yaay
Team work allows for system chains, so yes, 15 minutes of time logged in is feasible if your team is working that system all day. Again, teamwork, not I pwn selfishness.
Do you understand the concept of "cost/benefit" do you?. You see, if you're benefiting from your corp mates work, then the guy who initially started the chain is paying for your increased profit. Not that he would do anything else, but he is still paying for your increased profit.
Quote:
I believe i said bounty times. And as for hauling, you mean to that station in system where I sell things. 0.0 markets ftw. Not everyone relies on Jita for profits.
Goods still need to be moved within 0.0. Unless you only rat in station systems
Quote:
Last I checked, moon mining and renters often go to alliance programs such as capital replacements. So while the income is not directly in your wallet, the effects are certainly significant to the average 0.0 player. Not to mention that renting opens doors to smaller empire entities that could not practically hold space for themselves while reaping the rewards of 0.0.
Yes, the prospect of rending space will certainly endear the alliance subsisting of 0.0 production income to go and move into 0.0...
Oh wait.
Quote:
Other values include things like complexes, 0.0 agents and pirate faction gear/ships "hello phantasm/nightmare, rattlesnake... etc" and those in space cosmos areas that pay out quite well. Not to mention mining, drugs, and trade routes into 0.0 space that pay the most of any in game.
So "other values" is "Delve"...
Quote:
Empire getting a nerf isn't the same as saying 0.0 needs a boost. One forces more inflationary pressure (not inflation you ******ed gits i'm sure will comment) and outrageousness into the game, the other does not.
"Inflationary pressure" is "money supply increases that create inflation" or "stuff supply decreases that create inflation".... you git. Though nerfing empire would likely cause inflationary pressure through a reduction in production since more of empire based production is in items rather than isk.
Now, boosting 0.0 by increasing the amount of isk produced there might be an inflationary pressure, but you don't have to increase the amount of isk produced you could instead increase the amount of stuff produced... which would be deflationary pressure.
Also, i do not believe that "outrageousness" is a quantitative measure of anything that can really be increased...
Quote: This game cannot sustain it's economy forever if the faucets do not get turned off rather than increased. This is an age old problem in all MMOs that has truely ruined them. When everyone becomes wealthy, it loses meaning, there is a reason to have class warfare.
yes it can. The age old problem in MMOs is not that people get wealthy(if people get wealthy in Eve they will simply PvP more... which was good the last time i checked).
The age old problem in MMOs is that they create a lot of currency faucets but there are no continual currency sinks.
Eve doesn't have this problem because you can always trade isk directly for minerals via NPC sell orders just as you can always trade minerals for ISK via insurance fraud.
Game crippling hyperinflation simply cannot happen because if it starts people will turn all that isk into materials with the push of a button. It also cannot happen because there is constant requirements for new stuff when people blow it up.
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German General
Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.01.27 03:49:00 -
[460]
check |
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.27 09:53:00 -
[461]
seems like a start...
I'd agree with Vuks points ... some more things:
1. moon POSes are completely industry based with light defenses and slow initial response times. 2. planet POSes could be mini stations with only a ship hangar (you can store a fited ship there in case defenses are needed) with some reasonable limit on the hangar size, only docking and hangar, no other services. 3. once moon POSes stop being relevant for SOV, make a POS overhaul as suggested in the 'dead horse' thread :-) 4. make NPC rats spawn at industry POSes and attack the installations. If the POS kills the rat, no bounty is payed and the wreck is also destroyed by the POS.
I realy have no clue about other things, my exposure to 0.0 was brief ...
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Dumah Tace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.29 19:53:00 -
[462]
Edited by: Dumah Tace on 29/01/2009 19:54:11 As far as alliance making improvements to different space, perhaps we could add a static cap so to speak to how far it can be improved. We could probably tie this to it's truesec rating or some other system.
-edit- Wanted to support this topic |
Jack Light
legion syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.04 03:20:00 -
[463]
All the way
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Lorzion
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.04 06:04:00 -
[464]
Edited by: Lorzion on 04/02/2009 06:04:29 0.0 Should have something static that people would fight for to pull real PVP off of the gates and POS's that would effect an alliance's income or something like that. Currently the only way for small allaince's to even make a dent in people's isk making ability is by sitting in a ratting system cloaked keeping everyone docked, safed and cloaked, and POS'ed.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2009.02.04 09:34:00 -
[465]
Here's the CSM minutes where this issue is discussed quite a bit
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:57:00 -
[466]
Read the original suggestions.
Read the CSM minutes on initial discussions.
Heartily approve. In fact, I had intended at one point to write on this myself, but see most of these suggestions as being identical, will save the effort.
"Hammerhead gave a homework for the CSM: brainstorming on this issue." I'll start another thread for this homework, however.
--Krum |
Jove X
Dragon Highlords
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Posted - 2009.02.09 03:31:00 -
[467]
Will there be a chance that in the revamping ... we'll actually see Empire faction rats distributed in 0.0 npc faction space? |
Cataracts
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.09 09:01:00 -
[468]
Some very good ideas.
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Temari Kurita
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.09 17:01:00 -
[469]
Supporting this.
-=-=-=-=- Just another happy bee for the Swarm |
Ray Tarkin
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Posted - 2009.05.21 19:32:00 -
[470]
I find it interesting that i read thru 16 pages on this, and not one question regarding that stance CCP has about " Pushing more Players into 0.0 " ? I see what honestly looks like the same small groups of folks screaming at each other , all the while embracing this assumption that if there was even more stuff in 0.0, there would be a mass exodus into 0.0?
No, i think you all relise why there are very few players exculsive to 0.0 and it isn't about ISK itself. It's about being able to log on, and go play, without hassel, without uber-doom, without having to constantly look over your shoulder or wait around for enough other people that wanna do what you wanna do to be around. Yes, i already hear the keyboards going at this, i'm such a n00b, ect ect. Yet, i think you'll find that argument is the reason even most of you make money in empire, and blow it in 0.0.
Wanna make lowsec and 0.0 attractive? less hassel, less stress. Simple to say, but extremly unpopular to admit. You wanted the biggest ships, best rocks, best ice , ect ect . . You got it , and your alone. No-one even wants to try going out there, because it's just not worth . . There Time. Not ISK alone, but simply because it eats up time and stresses folks out to even try going out there. Guessing this is where you'll start Trolling and screaming Carebear? You said it yourself, Risk vs. Reward. It's not that there isn't reward there, it's that stress and risk to even make the attempt isn't worth it to most players, Because they just wanna play. In low-sec and moreso in 0.0, you just can't really do that, now can you ? You all wanted the pressure, guess what ? Most other players don't. They wanna go shoot some bad guys, mine a few rocks, chatter with others and relax.
So, while i DO AGREE that you all could use more to do out there, and a few of the sugestions i see on here seem great in that direction, CCP's idea that if they keep just tossing candy out there, that more players will swarm out into it? No, not really. Some revamping that might instead make it less stressful? That might be a better question.
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SXYGeeK
Interstellar Planetary KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.21 20:49:00 -
[471]
some awesome ideas in here. I particularily like the ideas around moving sov holding to planets, upgrading stations with agents, upgrading planets with colonies.
I understand that NPC trade goods are an isk sink for the economy and this may be a good thing, but this could be remedies simply by paying salary to colony personel.
the idea of making small gang targets out of the colonies is awesome! perhaps incorporate some of the sub profesion skills such as hacking and salvaging for small gangs to exploit hostile resources.
-We So SeXy |
SXyGeeK Bravo
Interstellar Planetary KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.21 20:57:00 -
[472]
Supporting!, maybe i can finaly use a hacking module in PVP :_) -We So SeXy |
sxyklrsunfish
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Posted - 2009.05.21 20:59:00 -
[473]
Supporting! less trade goods to haul is good :)
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eliminator2
Annihilate. Shock Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.21 21:00:00 -
[474]
after seeing the first page full of MM and goon supports with there alts :p i was thinkin erm no but tbh it isnt that bad
but could do with boostin low sec for the rich as well
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SXYProwler
Interstellar Planetary KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.21 21:06:00 -
[475]
Supporting... I'm not an alt, i swear, just a similar name to my buddies :P
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Huang Tang
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Posted - 2009.05.23 16:20:00 -
[476]
Supported with all my love...! plz CCP make us happy!!1
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Chunky Milk
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Posted - 2009.05.23 17:52:00 -
[477]
Planets are a great start, but if you allow for small objectives such as complexes or pillars or society you're going to run into issues where a bunch of pirates with no territorial ambitions can directly influence a major power. Dreads should be required to even begin the contesting of space, it's one of the larger military assets alliances would have.
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diabeteman
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.25 16:00:00 -
[478]
check !
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Tamahra
Danke fuer den Fisch
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Posted - 2009.05.25 17:22:00 -
[479]
including planets into the sov mechanics sounds nifty.
/supported
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De'Vadder
Heavy Influence Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 10:00:00 -
[480]
Edited by: De''Vadder on 26/05/2009 10:00:46 I totally love the idea of small and little armed structures that generate some sort of wealth (trade goods) over time. If you could go and hack/destroy them and steal that wealth from the sov holding alliance that would be awesome, some real targets for roaming ops, and it would be cool to take a transport and someone with codebreakers out into enemy territory. I couldnt support this ideas any more.
Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 and a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
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