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Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?

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Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:38:00 - [61] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ghengis Tia Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites. Rather than run their own missions, they rely on hard-working players HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Running missions? Hard work? You're doing it wrong. It's far more work to scan people down and nick their wrecks than it is to create those wrecks to begin with (the latter can be done AFK ffs!). Quote: Your combat skills, ammo, and risking the mission in the first place are considered of no value Combat skills have far wide application than missions, so no they don't really add anything. Ammmo? You get bounties as reward for expending it, so that value is already covered. Risk? Non-existant and thus has no value. Quote: Most of them haven't the common courtesy to ask the mission runner or explorer for the salvage, they just start salvaging and f*** the other player. Why should they? It's there for the taking. I suppose you expect miners to ask others before they can use the same belt? You want the salvage? Then take it and don't leave it for others. Get a life, Tippia. If it is more work to "scan down players and nick their wrecks" why do you do it other than to antagonize other players? At least you don't deny my first sentence, "Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites". You at least acknowlege the essence of your inner being. You seem to enjoy your denigrating behavior, Eve provides fun for all types of players, even you.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:42:00 - [62] You'd think it would get old after awhile, but the "Hard working missionrunner vs parasitic, pathetic, lazy thieves" tirade never does. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Chomin H'ak Integrated Takeovers	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Ghengis Tia Get a life, Tippia. If it is more work to "scan down players and nick their wrecks" why do you do it other than to antagonize other players? At least you don't deny my first sentence, "Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites". You at least acknowlege the essence of your inner being. You seem to enjoy your denigrating behavior, Eve provides fun for all types of players, even you. Um... she's belittling you how? I hate to say it (well, not really) but it's your behavior which is denigrating. Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Hugo Splat Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:45:00 - [64] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hugo Splat And here I was thinking 'Risk vs Reward' was a big part of the CCP plan also. Can you point out to me where the risk is please? I see the reward, I am just having trouble finding the risk. It's the same as for the mission runner. They risk losing their ship. Small risk once they know the missions, but the risk remains.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Ghengis Tia Get a life, Tippia. If it is more work to "scan down players and nick their wrecks" why do you do it other than to antagonize other players? Beats me. Some like a challenge, I guess. Quote: At least you don't deny my first sentence, "Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites". You at least acknowlege the essence of your inner being. Yes, I'm lazy as hell. That's why I run missions. Or did you assume that I was a ninja salvager trying to protect my income?! LMAO no. Can't be bothered — I salvage my own missions as I go since it's much easier and it leaves nothing to the poor ninjas. …not that they ever find me — I've been ninja'd once in the last year. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:46:00 - [66] Originally by: Hugo Splat They risk losing their ship. Small risk once they know the missions, but the risk remains. Well, there's your answer then. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Solomon Weyland Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:47:00 - [67] Just blow up any wrecks they go for, all of them if necessary. Its the simple solution. You will still get the money from bounties and the mission reward itself. All they will get is wasted time and probes.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Battleclash Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. then why are you making it less and less hostile for each expantion? They're not making it less hostile, you're just becoming more emo Yeah you're right. "Concord buffs" was actually the name of a goth band and "Wreck Ownership Change" was their hit single. but they spawn less now. you just take a bigger sec hit but can deal more damage before you die.
Scarlet Pimpdaddy Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. This
fatherted1989 Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:16:00 - [70] IMHO it should be equal to flipping a can, i.e i can blow you to ****. I, do all the work killing I, should be allowed to salvage (which is very profitable) in my own time You, should not be able to just take without some sort of repercussion.
Darwin Duck A Quest Millitia	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:33:00 - [71] Doesn't stealing salvage flag him so you can attack? A TEF (temporarly enemy flag) should be applied in such situation (IMHO). Then you can fight it out for the wrecks.
Blastil	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:38:00 - [72] Quote: When property is lost at sea and rescued by another, the rescuer is entitled to claim a salvage award on the salved property. Essentially salvage is free. Since the majority of salvage cannot or may not be returnable to the owner, a salvage ship essentialy has free reign. That IS my applying IRL law to EVE, but the dev's reasoning is the same. I'm not off base here.
Lex Alandar Cskillzone DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:47:00 - [73] The way I see it, the problem is not that people are able to 'steal' your salvage but rather that you are not allowed recourse against it. Yet you continue to choose to run missions in an area where this applies to you. I think you will find ninja-salvaging is non-existent in lowsec. Ninja-salvager would not be a viable profession but for the thousands of carebears who are too ingrained with this idea of 'safety' to take a little risk for their reward. Move to lowsec, get some blues, problem solved.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Lex Alandar I think you will find ninja-salvaging is non-existent in lowsec. Ninja-salvager would not be a viable profession but for the thousands of carebears who are too ingrained with this idea of 'safety' to take a little risk for their reward. Move to lowsec, get some blues, problem solved. High sec is fine too as ninja salvagers only work in the high traffic systems otherwise it would take too long to find a mission to nick the salvage off of.
Druadan BLAM Industries	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:56:00 - [75] Tell me again why mission runners thinking they need additional protected rewards for the mind-numbingly simple task they do to line their pockets is okay?
Lady Aja Caldari Scarlet Scourge Society	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:58:00 - [76] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. FIRST! sorry to hijack a thread but... if what you say is true.. eve is not meant to be a breaze. then why the hell is the orca making it so easy for ppl to mine in 100% safty in npc corps? it can be got around in a player corp or alliance. but allowing non corp/alliance pilots to access the hanger bay? not on CCP. 140k m3 secure cargo container at maxed out skills and t2 fittings. what you gonna do about it ccp?
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:29:00 - [77] I think that in a game in which the devs and players constantly cite 'risk v. reward' as a design consideration, it's a shame that the dregs of the galaxy are have a protected right to zero-risk income generation. No other profession in the game -- including high-sec mining, where the miner is at risk from thieves and suicide gankers -- is protected in this way. Nobody (well, nobody reasonable, at least) is asking for the mechanics to be changed to prevent salvage theft. The problem is only that the salvage thieves are invulnerable to retaliation of any sort, since they do not generate an aggression flag like can thieves do (which is odd, since wrecks replaces loot cans which did generate such flags), and the salvage thieves are generally in NPC corps and are therefore un-wardec'able. Three possible solutions: 1) Make salvaging wrecks cause an aggression flag (not a criminal flag). This means the mission runner can choose to defend the wrecks assuming they are willing to accept the risk inherent in doing so. 2) Disallow salvaging by any member of an NPC corp. (Noting that there are already rules about hopping in and out of corps to avoid war-decs.) This has the dual benefit of allowing the mission-runner to dec the thief, and also the side effect of encouraging mission-runners to move out of NPC corps. 3) Have ships drop seperate wrecks and loot cans, which would return this aspect of the game to the pre-wreck days as far as loot ownership was concerned, while making the wrecks themselves 'first come, first served'.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:32:00 - [78] It is impossible to "steal" salvage by design. It is waste that belongs to no one. You can't claim it any more than you could claim space dust.
Roymundo Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:55:00 - [79] Originally by: fatherted1989 IMHO it should be equal to flipping a can, i.e i can blow you to ****. I, do all the work killing I, should be allowed to salvage (which is very profitable) in my own time You, should not be able to just take without some sort of repercussion. nah. the laws of salvage in eve as in real life are pretty simple; i.e: first come first serve. take for example those who salvage spanish wrecks (deep blue sea kinda situation). they have the right to take what they want.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Becq Starforged it's a shame that the dregs of the galaxy are have a protected right to zero-risk income generation. I agree, missions need to be removed or some risk added to them! Quote: No other profession in the game -- including high-sec mining, where the miner is at risk from thieves and suicide gankers -- is protected in this way. Uhm… if suicide gankers is a risk for miners, then they're certanly a risk to salvagers as well, so there goes the argument about zero risk. Quote: The problem is only that the salvage thieves are invulnerable to retaliation of any sort …in exactly the same was as someone mining from my asteroid field is invulnerable to retaliation. Quote: 3) Have ships drop seperate wrecks and loot cans, which would return this aspect of the game to the pre-wreck days as far as loot ownership was concerned, while making the wrecks themselves 'first come, first served'. Uhm… You mean kind of like how it is right now, only with more crap on the overview? Sure. This means that the (supposed) problem is already solved. And no change is needed. Originally by: Lex Alandar The way I see it, the problem is not that people are able to 'steal' your salvage but rather that you are not allowed recourse against it. Depends on your definition of recourse. You can always simply salvage the wrecks first… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
TomNewDelhi MTND Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:17:00 - [81] why do some people get so animated over a computer game?
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:27:00 - [82] Originally by: TomNewDelhi why do some people get so animated over a computer game? Because they obviously care. Which is funny. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:00:00 - [83] Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is. So you say but still your actions speaks against this bulzhit. When you have shiny little 0.0 space and you want to have NICE fleet battle you can call up your dev frie... create petition to GM and ask more hamsters for your node. Good and nice except in your reality you think that EVE has 2 types of people: Hi-Sec macromission runners and 0.0 sec UBER player political yay we rule-people but you kinda forget that you created your stupid and worthless FW to be in LOWSEC! Last nite we were DUMB enought to have 20 blob in gate and we waited 3 hours that enemy can gather fleet. They finally got 3x more people than us and engaged us. Sadly only winner is that match was LAG. So whats the point of doing "epic fw fights" when your pathentic servers cannot even handle SMALL battles and your effort to boost fleet battles is towards 0.0 space. Why I even bother .. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Victoria Ehr Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:05:00 - [84] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. Make it more Hostile by flagging people who take salvage from someone else's wreck, just as if they stole loot from that wreck. -------------------------------------------- Glory to the State and Tibus Heth.
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:12:00 - [85] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. You, I, and Zulupark need to go out drinking sometime. I'll buy. Until then, can you bonk Greyscale with a baseball bat every time he tries to nerf hi-sec wars?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:19:00 - [86] Originally by: Victoria Ehr Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. Make it more Hostile by flagging people who take salvage from someone else's wreck, just as if they stole loot from that wreck. Or make it more hostile by extending the NPC aggression to other players. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:32:00 - [87] Originally by: Akita T "Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?" Because it's not "EVE : Chronicles of Riddick - 'You keep what you kill' "... Haha Your cap ship deserves CPR's!
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:39:00 - [88] Haha, salvage whine thread got pwned by the database developer. That shows how cemented ninja salvaging is and how it will be in the game forever. Screw you people who said CCP would cave in to the whiners eventually. Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. Hail, CCP Prism X! Burn the whiners!
Navtiqes Noob Mercs	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:01:00 - [89] Edited by: Navtiqes on 14/01/2009 09:01:37 Back when in the day we didn't even have salvage. Kids these days take everything for granted. We had to disassemble minmatari ships for spare parts. Not that it was particularly hard in itself, but the matari kept trying to undock while we were working on their ships. I tell ya, being forced through warptravel while hanging from the sails of a Tempest in a welding harness surviving only on the pockets of air under you fingernails gets old pretty fast.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:09:00 - [90] Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 14/01/2009 09:11:05 I hereby propose a petition to include a booklet detailing some of the more basic real world laws, such as the maritime law of salvage and their applications in EVE, so as to avoid unnecessary Customer Confusion. Honestly, look at it this way. You are the Commanding Officer on the deck of a ship designed for naval warfare belonging to the United States of America. You are in enemy waters, and have just sunk a insert-fictional-country-here's very expensive ship. Technically, the ship and everything that is on it, having been produced by them, and formerly belonging to them, should be theirs first by right - however, you believe you have the right to it instead, because you're the one that put all the hard work into sinking it. So what of ore thieves? Technically, by the same kind of justification, the ore they steal is rightfully theirs, as they had to scout around looking for ore to steal. Salvage/loot thieves in your missions have a right to the salvage/loot, because they had to first find your mission and get to the salvage/loot they wanted to take. Miners should have right-of-way in belts if they arrived before you, because they did just that. Heck, traders should have a right to trade routes, if they're the first to find them, because of that simple fact; they're the ones that initially put in the work to find and exploit it, and someone else is coming and trying to muck it up for them. You should be grateful that you are afforded any kind of recourse at all, rather than complain about not being able to lay claim to something that technically belongs to the first one to retrieve it. ninja edit Technically, my use of the word 'technically' is not technical. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D

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