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Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:12:00 - [151] Salvaging a wreck is desecrating a war grave, and should be punishable by CONCORD.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:21:00 - [152] Quote: Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take. It's very, very hard to lose a ship to a mission if you're awake. Missions are predictable, well documented, don't adapt to your ship and tactics.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:35:00 - [153] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 13:35:52 Originally by: Gypsio III Salvaging a wreck is desecrating a war grave, and should be punishable by CONCORD. Nice twist... I like it.
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:37:00 - [154] I don't get this at all :S Even WoW lets you skin other peoples kills, this is no different. It's not looting it's salvaging, salvaging is a profession. Professions nodes are always free game. WTF is next? People are stealing my asteroid!! It should be flagged to me when I start mining it!!!
XJennieX Minmatar Children of Gjallarhorn	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:47:00 - [155] Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. aside that he is doing missions,how is that a carebear behaviour? many people who are in big 0.0 alliances still do lvl4 missions because those give good income.. i think you are just a 12 year old who dont know anything else but trying to troll people.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:54:00 - [156] Originally by: XJennieX do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. In that case, he could have spared us a 6-page thread and gotten a ton of support by rephrasing it as wishing that "people could not hide behind NPC corps and that he could wardec them" — the complaint you claim he has has nothing to do with salvaging rights.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:59:00 - [157] Originally by: XJennieX Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. That's fine. As long as mission runners can't hide in NPC corps either. TBH mission runners asking for salvage flagging are being very foolish. Who do you want ninjaing "your" salvage? (1) Fairly new players who have no better source of income (2) Highly skilled gankers who want nothing more than for you to be dumb enough to fire on them AND fairly new players who have no better source of income, but can still fit out a new T1 astrometrics frigate for the prices of a couple of melted caps if you happen to pop him. Prediction: If CCP introduce salvage flagging overnight, membership of TEARS will double within the week.
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:32:00 - [158] Edited by: Rennion on 14/01/2009 14:32:24 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: XJennieX Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. That's fine. As long as mission runners can't hide in NPC corps either. TBH mission runners asking for salvage flagging are being very foolish. Who do you want ninjaing "your" salvage? (1) Fairly new players who have no better source of income (2) Highly skilled gankers who want nothing more than for you to be dumb enough to fire on them AND fairly new players who have no better source of income, but can still fit out a new T1 astrometrics frigate for the prices of a couple of melted caps if you happen to pop him. Prediction: If CCP introduce salvage flagging overnight, membership of TEARS will double within the week. Yeh the similarity to can flagging is pretty stark silly bears don't even know what they are asking for.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:27:00 - [159] Originally by: XJennieX do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs And right there, with those two little words, all logic in the thread is destroyed. Those two little words. "Salvage thiefs", or, as I assume you meant, "salvage thieves". We'll go over this one more time, slowly, for the ones of you who never learned to read in first grade. THERE. IS. NO. SUCH. THING. AS. A. SALVAGE. THIEF. "Salvage thief" is an oxymoron. Like some of y'all, only with more oxy. There's no such thing as a salvage thief. "Thief" requires that salvage have been yours before the salvager got his grubby hands on it. Salvage, by definition, belongs to the first person who gets his grubby hands on it. That person, it turns out, was not you. It is not yours. It never was yours. It cannot have been stolen from you. There was no theft. This is not in doubt. This is not in dispute. No fewer than three different devs, including two GMs, have now weighed in on this issue. Yes, the rules of the game could change. They always can. In this case, I suspect that there will be snowballs in Hell first, but it could happen. If it does? Then, maybe, it will be possible for there to be a "salvage thief" in the game. But until then? Using the phrase demonstrates that you don't understand the game, or the rules as they are, or simple logic, or the concept of the oxymoron. It is beyond me how anybody can keep talking about "salvage thieves" in the very thread where CCP Prism wrote: Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Salvage is not considered your stuff until it enters your cargo hold. Simple concept. Do you understand? Or do we need to go over this yet again? We in the salvage community GET that you don't like this. We GET that you wish it were different. We GET that you want to play by different rules that give you more ISK for your mission-running efforts. You'd earn a great deal more respect for your advocacy if you could somehow manage to speak of the game that is (the game where there's no such thing as a salvage thief) when arguing for the game you'd like to play (where, in theory, there could be). The summary, for those of you who think "wall of text" whenever you encounter more than twenty words in a row: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SALVAGE THIEF. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Elena Morin'staal Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:30:00 - [160] Quote: snowballs in Hell first What about some snowballs in A Hel? Ok, smartassery aside, I pretty much second. To steal salvage, implies they have removed it from your cargo hold.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:34:00 - [161] Originally by: Marlenus "Salvage thief" is an oxymoron. Like some of y'all, only with more oxy. +2 Internets to you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for brightening my forum lurking today. ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:38:00 - [162] Originally by: Marlenus "Salvage thief" is an oxymoron. Like some of y'all, only with more oxy. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SALVAGE THIEF. #eve-online salutes you, sir MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:09:00 - [163] Tip your waiter, I'll be here ... well, until they turn the servers off. But seriously, glad I could amuse a few folks with my rant. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:31:00 - [164] Lets say you beat some guy up on the streets because he hit you first. His wallet falls out and a bum steals it. Point being the wallet was always there for the taking...yes...yes...
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:37:00 - [165] ok this might have alreadt been said but: GET YOUR ASS OUT OF A MISSION HUB AND ALSO SALVAGE BELONGS TO NO-ONE so with salvage having no official 'owner' it can not be stolen /ends thread
Iomar Uisdean Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:04:00 - [166] I do consider it to be MY salvage..... But only because I salvaged it first, during the mission as I complete the mission objectives (usually blow up a lot of stuff). In my experience it takes more or less equal time to clean up as I go, rather then complete the mission first, dock up and switch to a dedicated salvage/loot gathereer. Most of the ships I use for missioning can mount a salvager without gimping the mission platform. It's my salvage because I salvaged it. If someone were to salvage it before I did, it would be their salvage. They'd have to scan me down first, without me noticing and safespotting or docking or setting up a little suprise. Heck, scan me down, you're welcome to my salvage, you've earned it. You're also welcome to my loot, and the salvage and widgets from the wreck of my ship. Actually ..... if you're trying to scan me down, the salvage is the least of my concerns.
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:51:00 - [167] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I do consider it to be MY salvage..... It's my salvage because I salvaged it. if you already salvaged how the hell can someone else salvage it as well?
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:50:00 - [168] i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:22:00 - [169] Originally by: ollobrains2 i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again Spamming your terrible idea over and over again like a 5 year old didn't work? Who'd have thought that?
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:27:00 - [170] Salvage stealing? Doesn't exist.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:46:00 - [171] Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 14/01/2009 22:47:12 Originally by: "Mintoko" Originally by: "Gypsio III" Salvaging a wreck is desecrating a war grave, and should be punishable by CONCORD. Nice twist... I like it. So in one breath, you want the ability to shoot at people taking your salvage, and in another you 'like the twist' that wrecks (and the loot contained therein) are 'war graves', and that 'desecrating' them is a CONCORD offence; ignoring the fact that CONCORD and the Empire Factions don't want the NPC pirates there, which is why they're sending you to kill them. They don't care for the wrecks, which is why they even afford you the right to shoot someone that takes loot from them. I will say this for the umpteenth time. When it comes to salvage, the owner of the vessel has 'first right' to any equipment or machinery that is on said vessel. A salvager is allowed to remove these things; HOWEVER the owner of the vessel is allowed to lay claim to these salvaged items in court - that is to say if they even get the salvager to go to court. Beyond this, agreements are made for the time-investment and resource-investment involved in retrieving the equipment/machinery, and the owner of the vessel has to compensate the salvager if they want the stuff back. It's no different from the owner spending the same money on time and resources to go salvage the wreckage(s) themselves. Any salvage that derives from dismantling the wreckage for scrap metal or other components, however, is purely first-come, first-served. Trit bars are not equipment or machinery, they are components used in the construction of the vessel hull. Armor plates, the same story. Shield Emmiter arrays, same story. Capacitor Consoles, same story. And Mintoko, I wasn't ignoring my own statement; fact of the matter is that those rats are not part of the objective, they just happen to have something in their ships locking down the gate. If you had to go down into 0.0 to try and remove a corp you have a contract against, but there happens to be some unaffiliated corp camping one of the gates you HAVE to go through with bubbles and the like, you have the choices of removing them, dying or trying to get out. They are, however, not included in your contract; they are simply there, or they were hired as guardians by the small corp you were contracted against - your employer isn't going to pay you for taking them out and you're risking resources to deal with them, if you do. Mission runners have it perfectly safe. How safe depends on what precautionary measures they will take when running their missions. I know for a fact that if you have one guardian/basilisk and a relevant battleship for them to transfer to, you have a tank that is quite literally unbreakable in pretty much all lvl4 missions, even if everything decides to shoot at you. You are also afforded the ability to better manage blobs, as you needn't kite; you can let everything come to you. You are also afforded extra cargo capacity for carrying your precious l00tz. You are afforded the ability to fit more DPS on the battleship, as the lowslots/mids otherwise used for tanking related mods are freed up for dps/tracking/painting/webbing ones instead. By the time you are running just these two accounts (and don't tell me not everyone can run dual accounts, that is a blatant lie - I can run dual accounts on my mom's crappy Sempron 2400+ at 1gb ram with a GeForce2 MX400 64mb and the onboard graphics, and that was entry level maybe some 8 years ago), your efficiency goes up such that you can possibly even afford to have a third account that you dedicate to salvaging/looting purposes. There are extra uses to having these second and third accounts, but I don't expect everyone to understand why you'd want them, and I'm not going to go through the trouble of listing the benefits - use your imagination. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:49:00 - [172] Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 14/01/2009 22:49:19 You make refernce to can flagging - prior to can flagging, bears were complaining that they didn't have any way to prevent the thieves from taking their stuff. Post can flagging, they're complaining anyway, because people are still taking their stuff, but they're unwilling to do anything about them. As has been mentioned before, a lot of the time, mission ninjas actually take loot along with salvage, because they could deal with being shot at and are making more isk in the process, one way or the other. Your proposal, on the other hand, could backlash against the younger players, as more of the larger corps running missions together or in the same system are avoided and mostly newer, alone players are targeted instead, because there is less risk involved. As it is, this is already the case a lot of the time when people encounter noobcorp mission runners, because they know that beyond logistic support, that guy is effectively alone. Originally by: "ollobrains2" i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again Your changes were, in fact, not realistic. By changing the wreck/container-in-space timer from 2 hours to 6 hours, you increase the amount of entities that the database has to track at any given time by more than 3 fold. Your posts were removed because you were spamming the same exact thing over and over again; the Features & Ideas discussion forum is the place to post ideas, and to wait for people to read/discuss them. [/wall-of-text attack] edit and here I thought typing these up in notepad would prevent me from making as many mistakes... -_- --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Exolun Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:11:00 - [173] Edited by: Exolun on 14/01/2009 23:11:22 It's not stealing. It's bottom-feeding. I can't say that I like it, but as others have stated, there are certain measures you can take if you don't want it to happen. If I'm missioning in Dodixie, for example, I'll fly a dominix with 2x salvagers, and 2x tractors. Elsewise, if I'm not set up to salvage mid-mission and a salvager comes in, I start popping every wreck rather than let them have the salvage. It's a brutal tactic since nobody benefits, but they aren't going to stick around for long. For me, it hasn't been a problem for a long time though. I moved to a quieter system where I can complete missions fast with a high DPS ship, then come in with a salvaging ship and deal with it all quickly. I agree that if you're the type of missioner that earns a tidy sum from salvaging his missions, it's very annoying and financially damaging. But there are many workarounds, and it adds an additional dimension to the game for those who want to play that way.
Squasar Caldari Kiith Paktu	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:18:00 - [174] Originally by: Exolun Edited by: Exolun on 14/01/2009 23:11:22 It's not stealing. It's bottom-feeding. Well I'll bottom feed any day. I enjoy my easy 30-50 mil/hr from afk missioners with little to no effort besides waiting for a scan to finish and Warp to 0
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:30:00 - [175] I have no problem with their career choice.. same with pirates.. its just a choice of how to play. What doesn't make any sense. Is that there is no aggression when they salvage. The way the rule is now.. they can take broken bits without agro, but if they take something that work there is? I know this was done to achieve some sort of balance.. but it just doesnt make sense. It's like going hunting shooting a deer.. and having someone take all the tenderloins off it leaving you the rest.. and you just have to sit there and watch em do it.. or the game warden will blow up your truck. Let the salvager choose if they wish to gain aggression.. and give the originator of the kill time to salvage it. You accomplish both goals.. and create some opportunities to kick some a$$!
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:43:00 - [176] Originally by: FarosWarrior Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I do consider it to be MY salvage..... It's my salvage because I salvaged it. if you already salvaged how the hell can someone else salvage it as well? That's the whole point — it's not your salvage until you salvage it. Since you get it when you salvage it, no-one can steal it from you (short of blowing up your ship and looting the remains). As long as it's just a wreck it's not "your salvage" and any salvage extracted from that wreck by someone else isn't yours, by very definition, so they didn't steal it from you.
Vincent Death Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:37:00 - [177] Originally by: Exolun Edited by: Exolun on 14/01/2009 23:11:22 It's not stealing. It's bottom-feeding. The day that CCP remove bottom-feeding from EvE will be a very sad day imho. I'll play a bugle solo and wear a black armband and maybe even cry bloody tears of rage.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:47:00 - [178] Tippia, it's also amusing to note that the wrecks 'of yours' that are being 'stolen' might not even have any valuable salvage, let alone loot, in them to begin with. Heck, the wreck could have no salvage and just a pack of cap boosters, a worthless tag and some ammo - the 'owner' of the wreck would still throw a hissy fit if someone had to 'take' the wreck and all the loot in it...
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:12:00 - [179] This is funny because any "salvage is theft" posts is akin saying a dev doesn't know about their own game.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:17:00 - [180] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I'm really speaking to the issue of no recourse. If you steal a can I have immediate recourse. ... With salvage there is NO recourse at all. If I am mining in highsec and you come along and start mining "my" asteroid, I have NO RECOURSE. I am sick of this unfair abuse of game mechanics, frankly. I don't have a problem with the fact that you can mine my asteroid, but I refuse to accept that there is no recourse. I demand that from now on, mining in highsec should aggro you to all other pilots in the system who have at least one mining laser or mining drone fitted. .............

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