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Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?

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Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:37:00 - [121] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:39:19 Originally by: Napro The ones producing the tears are carebears. Why do they think they're owed so much from CCP for missioning? If you don't like the mechanics of mission-grinding.... quit grinding! Really don't even see why their arguing for an aggression timer... I salvage in a AF and I'd run circles against any PvE fitted ship Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Quote: The word "stealing" in the topic line is misleading, how can you steal that which has no owner? The only entity I could see as "the owner" of mission wrecks would be the NPC pirate corp (True Power for instance), not the guy who blew them up If I only had a few dollars for every time someone has mentioned this in this one thread....
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:40:00 - [122] Mintoko, fine, then what about this? The agent has given you a mission; that mission's only objective is to eliminate a single target at the end of a deadspace complex. It just so happens that the thingamajiggies in the ships in the pockets before the final one happen to be locking the gates, and they're not up for discussing your safe passage, so your only choice is to blow them up. So, if you think about it, those NPCs aren't really part of the mission your agent gave you; they're simply people that are tagging along. Want to know why I say this? You're in a merc corp. You have been given a contract to eliminate CCP Oveur. All the other devs have decided they're going to fight to protect him, but they aren't your targets and there is no profit from your employer in killing them, so you ignore them and go straight for CCP Oveur. Somebody else comes along and kills the other devs - are you going to complain if they take the salvage+loot from the ships? Of course not! They weren't part of your objective and you didn't have any intention of killing them anyway! But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. I've got news for you mate; those NPC wrecks? They belong to the NPC corps - not to you. The loot and salvage on them? Belong to the NPC corps, not you. The contents of the NPC buildings you blew up? Belong to the NPC corps, not you. You are in fact being afforded a luxury that dictates that loot dropped from these destroyed NPC entities belong to you. However, as per maritime law, salvage belongs to whoever comes to strip it first. Honestly, I think it would be hilarious if we had to start seeing contracts taken out by NPCs against players that have destroyed, looted and pillaged NPC entities, in missions or otherwise; where strong NPC forces come to punish players for their deeds. Hell, all being fair, it would only be normal for this to be the case, because surely nobody could take THAT much pushing around and not stand up to it eventually? Heaven forbid this should be the case, tho, or you'd start complaining when only you are focused on, not the guy that was actually taking the salvage you believe belonged to you when it actually belonged to the NPC's but CCP decided to finally throw you your bone and gave salvage an ownership flag, meaning that through anyone taking the salvage/loot, your 'time till next NPC WTFBBQ-fest event' flag ticks a few seconds closer to D-Day, purely because you had inferred rights to the salvage/loot. I can think of a million and one ways that your own justifications are driven against you, and yet, the simplest way to look at the non-issue is to simply accept that salvage works on a first come, first served basis, and does not have ownership. This way, it is nobody's fault but your own if you do not get to the salvage of the rats you killed, because let's face it; if you can't beat them, join them. There is NOTHING stopping you, apart from your moral high ground, from probing out other mission runners and taking THEIR salvage; in turn completely removing the possibility of 'your' missions getting probed out, since they quite simply do not exist. As for those saying ninja salvaging isn't profitable: Likelyhood of finding an Angel Blockade in some of the mission hubs is 1 per 20 minutes Likelyhood of it being near-completed by not yet stripped of salvage is about 1 in 3 Average yield in salvage is around 25mil isk Time to strip the pocket of all medium and larger wrecks with a properly fitted ship is approximately 8 minutes, depending on the degree of kiting 3 * 0.333 * 25 = 24.975mil isk/hour Assuming you can chain the missions, and have a turnaround of 10min per, you can make up to 150mil/hour. It's a bit of a gamble, though. Some days can be dry, others pouring with isk-rain.
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:41:00 - [123] Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Because CCP says so? Same reason for why you actually have the ability to do anything in this game?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:43:00 - [124] Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 11:44:25 Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? You know what? You've convinced me. I want killrights on anyone who enters my asteroid field. What have they done to freely take without recourse? The nerve of those slimy bastard!
Bumbum George	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:44:00 - [125] Originally by: Decarus Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Because CCP says so? /thread
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:45:00 - [126] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [127] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 11:44:25 Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? You know what? You've convinced me. I want killrights on anyone who enters my asteroid field. What have they done to freely take without recourse? The nerve of those slimy bastard! This has nothing to do with mining and you know it. We were talking about salvaging wrecks.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [128] Originally by: Mintoko Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:39:19 Originally by: Napro The ones producing the tears are carebears. Why do they think they're owed so much from CCP for missioning? If you don't like the mechanics of mission-grinding.... quit grinding! Really don't even see why their arguing for an aggression timer... I salvage in a AF and I'd run circles against any PvE fitted ship Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [129] Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 11:48:35 Originally by: Mintoko ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate. Actually, you can — it just takes some precise navigation, fast ship and a bit of patience… Originally by: Mintoko This has nothing to do with mining and you know it. We were talking about salvaging wrecks. Incorrect. It has everything to do with mining since it's the same kind of universal resource — free and available to whoever extracts it first. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:48:00 - [130] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate. You're blowing them up because they're there and in your way, not because they're your objective.
Chipan Asty	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:48:00 - [131] It's just not fair is it. It's not fair that someone blows up my hauler in hi sec when I'm autopiloting with a bils worth of cargo. It's not fair that I get blown up when jumping unscouted in to low sec. It's not fair that they still kill me even when I ask in local for them to stop. It's not fair that mission runners can grind level 4's in hi sec when they should only be in low sec so the pirates can probe them out. It's not fair that CCP introduced wrecks that can be salvaged by anyone because only the loot belongs to you. Lifes just not fair.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:51:00 - [132] Pod me sideways you people whinging are pathetic. "Oh no, people are slightly diminishing my totally safe source of income which I don't need for anything but slightly better spaceships for generating totally safe ISK".
Yesh Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:53:00 - [133] Originally by: Chipan Asty It's not fair that mission runners can grind level 4's in hi sec when they should only be in low sec so the pirates can probe them out. I completely agree with my alt here. Let the mission runners have agro rights on their wrecks, but as a compromise all level 4's should only be available in low sec. Sounds fair to me.
Yesh Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:55:00 - [134] Originally by: Davina Braben Pod me sideways you people whinging are pathetic. "Oh no, people are slightly diminishing my totally safe source of income which I don't need for anything but slightly better spaceships for generating totally safe ISK". Also this
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:55:00 - [135] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours) Comment
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:56:00 - [136] Originally by: Eran Laude Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate. You're blowing them up because they're there and in your way, not because they're your objective. It doesn't matter....he was trying to say that by going outside of the mission's parameters, I have no right to the spoils of battle. Either way...you blow them up, you should have the right to salvage them. If someone else comes in and takes them before you've even had a chance to get close to it, you should be allowed to shoot them. They then have the option of running away.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:58:00 - [137] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours) Comment
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:59:00 - [138] Originally by: Napro Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME And I will repeat.... not all mission runners are carebears.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:59:00 - [139] Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 12:00:46 Originally by: Mintoko you blow them up, you should have the right to salvage them You already do. If you choose not to exercise that right, though, you shouldn't be surprised if someone else comes along and takes care of the crap you leave behind. Quote: If someone else comes in and takes them before you've even had a chance to get close to it, you should be allowed to shoot them. You've already had that chance. You were too slow and they beat you to it.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:02:00 - [140] Originally by: Tippia Actually, you can ù it just takes some precise navigation, fast ship and a bit of patienceà Ah...I've actually thought about that, but being in a deadspace area, you'd need to be able to run the mission in that small, fast ship as you can't bookmark and warp directly into a deadspace pocket. You get sent to the first gate into it.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:06:00 - [141] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: Napro Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME And I will repeat.... not all mission runners are carebears. Nothing worse than an aloof Carebear. Whining about current game-mechanics. Check. Whining about things being owed to you. Check. Carebear. Check.
Modahn Etch Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:12:00 - [142] afaik it can only be called salvage once its created in your cargo. you own the wrecks not the salvage that comes from them. also What ATN said.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:18:00 - [143] Originally by: Mintoko Ah...I've actually thought about that, but being in a deadspace area, you'd need to be able to run the mission in that small, fast ship as you can't bookmark and warp directly into a deadspace pocket. You get sent to the first gate into it. Small is optional. Fast is all that's needed. Depends what you mean by "small" too — HACs do very well in L4s; AFs do very well in L3s. Quote: The problem of the mission runners is that the salvage is being taken as we watch. It's not "left behind" and if it's "crap" don't take it...Go find something that isn't crap. You did't take it, but rather went on to the next enemy — you left it behind. If you wanted it, you could have picked it up there and then. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:22:00 - [144] Originally by: Napro Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: Napro Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME And I will repeat.... not all mission runners are carebears. Nothing worse than an aloof Carebear. Whining about current game-mechanics. Check. Whining about things being owed to you. Check. Carebear. Check. You don't know me...don't make assumptions. I never said anything about my being "owed". The game mechanics you accuse us of whining about allow you to take without repercussion. If you wanna take the salvage, fine, do it, but I want to shoot you for it. That's all we want. We're not here to discuss the moral issues of who owns a wreck, but the mission runner did produce it...ammo costs money. Salvaging a mission can make up for some of the crappy rewards. We should be able to fight you for it. Originally by: Davina Braben Pod me sideways you people whinging are pathetic. "Oh no, people are slightly diminishing my totally safe source of income which I don't need for anything but slightly better spaceships for generating totally safe ISK". Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:24:00 - [145] ollo, stop spamming the same post. If anyone wants to respond to it, they will.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:31:00 - [146] Originally by: Mintoko You don't know me...don't make assumptions. I never said anything about my being "owed". The game mechanics you accuse us of whining about allow you to take without repercussion. If you wanna take the salvage, fine, do it, but I want to shoot you for it. That's all we want. We're not here to discuss the moral issues of who owns a wreck, but the mission runner did produce it...ammo costs money. Salvaging a mission can make up for some of the crappy rewards. We should be able to fight you for it. You're making assumptions their yourself. I always trip the aggro timer during ninja runs (simply because the loot is worth Much more than the salvage). 9 times out of 10 carebears will stand idly by and do nothing simply because they aren't fit for pvp while I am. The few that do engage are noobs in supertank Drakes that I have no problem chasing off. In effect, you're making a big stink out of nothing. Anyway, if you Carebears are willing to send all Level 4s to low-sec.. I'd lose my ability to salvage without repercussion... but then you'd lose your ability to Carebear mish grind. Something tells me the vast majority of you won't go for it :P
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:35:00 - [147] Originally by: Mintoko The game mechanics you accuse us of whining about allow you to take without repercussion. If you wanna take the salvage, fine, do it, but I want to shoot you for it. That's all we want. We're not here to discuss the moral issues of who owns a wreck, but the mission runner did produce it...ammo costs money. Salvaging a mission can make up for some of the crappy rewards. We should be able to fight you for it. Hey moron, read the **ing CCP developer repsonse. He went over this. No one is stealing. I do not reach into your cargohold and steal anything. IT IS FLOATING IN SPACE. Do you not understand the concept of space? or floating? Do you know what "it" is? Originally by:** Mintoko Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take. Hey, have you ever completed a mission before? there are thousands of guides on how to do it. You never get scrambled, you can always warp out. You never die in a mission, you know exactly what is coming and exactly how to fit and if you die in a mission to anything but lag, then you fail at this game and fail at basic concepts such as reading and math. I suggest you: 1) Learn to read 2) Read the CCP response 3) Learn how to think 4) Think 5) Realize that this is the way the game is and you cannot change it 6) GTFO 7) Never procreate
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:38:00 - [148] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours)
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:48:00 - [149] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 12:49:44 Originally by: Vaal Erit Hey moron, read the **ing CCP developer repsonse. He went over this. No one is stealing. I do not reach into your cargohold and steal anything. IT IS FLOATING IN SPACE. Do you not understand the concept of space? or floating? Do you know what "it" is? Originally by:** Mintoko Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take. Hey, have you ever completed a mission before? there are thousands of guides on how to do it. You never get scrambled, you can always warp out. You never die in a mission, you know exactly what is coming and exactly how to fit and if you die in a mission to anything but lag, then you fail at this game and fail at basic concepts such as reading and math. I suggest you: 1) Learn to read 2) Read the CCP response 3) Learn how to think 4) Think 5) Realize that this is the way the game is and you cannot change it 6) GTFO 7) Never procreate Why is it that anyone who can't come up with their own thoughts always resort to name calling and hiding behind a dev? Let me clue you in...one dev is not the final word. Things can change. Before the invention of wrecks, a can would be dropped. This can was FLOATING IN SPACE, yet if you took from it and it wasn't yours....oh no!!... YOU COULD GET SHOT FOR IT!. But why? It was floating in space.....the contents weren't being taken from the cargohold, yet it was still considered theft. Wrecks should be no different. They're produced from the destruction of a ship just as the cans were. When did this come down to mission skills? Never get scrambled???? Have YOU ever completed a mission? My first or second level 4 mission had warp scramblers. Perhaps YOU shouldn't procreate and hopefully, you haven't already.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:49:00 - [150] Originally by: ollobrains2 my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are The new MY RAVEN WAS FITTED WITH THE FOLLOWING meme? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki

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