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Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Rainson Arrvax Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:12:00 - [1] I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:14:00 - [2] So we all can laugh at you for taking so long in a mission and then steal your salvage.
Furb Killer Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:14:00 - [3] Because he wasted his time? In empire i cant even get someone to salvage my AE lvl 4 when i ask for it in several channels (for me basicly only mission i sometimes bother salvaging). --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Kale Kold Caldari Brutal Seizure	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:14:00 - [4] Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. Killboard \| Personal Record
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:17:00 - [5] If you didn't salvage it yet it isn't your salvage
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:18:00 - [6] It is ok because you already got rewarded for doing the mission (ISK, LPs, Standing) and for creating the wrecks (Bounty, Loot Rights) and the salvager is investing the same amount of time for salvaging as you would, plus an investment in time and ISK to even find any location worth salvaging. Considering that you are guaranteed to know the whereabouts of sizable amounts of wrecks you are already in an advantage over the freelance salvager. Consider yourself lucky. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Salliene Gallente Trinity Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. It helps build forum traffic. One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. You got it right m8, it's the salvage like in 'anybody's salvage' not like in 'my' salvage. If you think that salvaging makes you richer than missions you can always start a career as a ninja salvager yourself. My opinion is purely personal and not related to my alliance
Rainson Arrvax Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:22:00 - [9] Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. Ah, the cheer of the ass! Care Bear Care Bear! Like living your life as a 12 year old is some great human jump in human evolution. You win, you are a superior human being and so strong...sitting there behind your computer screen. Oh, you make me so hot. You're power is sooooo intoxicating. Oh, tell me how much better you are than those of us with different goals in a game. Oh yes...yes...yes... Boy, that was great. Thanks for spending the time on someone so pathetic!
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:22:00 - [10] Salvage, noun, to collect discarded or refused material. It's trash. If you don't sweep up your trash as you go, you can't feel hard done by when someone else does.
Salliene Gallente Trinity Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. Ah, the cheer of the ass! Care Bear Care Bear! Like living your life as a 12 year old is some great human jump in human evolution. You win, you are a superior human being and so strong...sitting there behind your computer screen. Oh, you make me so hot. You're power is sooooo intoxicating. Oh, tell me how much better you are than those of us with different goals in a game. Oh yes...yes...yes... Boy, that was great. Thanks for spending the time on someone so pathetic! Do you act this way when someone takes one of your pawns in chess (assuming you know how to play)? One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:27:00 - [12] "Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?" Because it's not "EVE : Chronicles of Riddick - 'You keep what you kill' "... _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Rainson Arrvax Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:28:00 - [13] Originally by: H Lecter Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. You got it right m8, it's the salvage like in 'anybody's salvage' not like in 'my' salvage. If you think that salvaging makes you richer than missions you can always start a career as a ninja salvager yourself. I'm really speaking to the issue of no recourse. If you steal a can I have immediate recourse. That makes up for the fact that you just create an alt an put him in an NPC corp. With salvage there is NO recourse at all. That's what wrong, not that someone can take the salvage.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:28:00 - [14] open up the dictionary and look up the word salvage. Then you'll see why it's not yours ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page "Nothing about Eve should be easy. Not even ganking." -Rhohan
Rainson Arrvax Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Salliene Originally by: Rainson Arrvax Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. Ah, the cheer of the ass! Care Bear Care Bear! Like living your life as a 12 year old is some great human jump in human evolution. You win, you are a superior human being and so strong...sitting there behind your computer screen. Oh, you make me so hot. You're power is sooooo intoxicating. Oh, tell me how much better you are than those of us with different goals in a game. Oh yes...yes...yes... Boy, that was great. Thanks for spending the time on someone so pathetic! Do you act this way when someone takes one of your pawns in chess (assuming you know how to play)? OMG, that's so funny. I can't believe that God didn't break the mold after you. Please, post some more about your greatness and how everyone else is not worth the air they take up. Its still soooo hot. Come on, I need it.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax If you steal a can I have immediate recourse. Yeah, about that - it's a relatively recent change (2-ish years), which has caused the side that was supposedly helped by it MORE total problems than before they HAD a "recourse". If salvaging becomes an act of agression, expect "mission busters" of the future to not only take your salvage, but also LOOT too (because there's no additional risk), and also expect them to come back in a PvP-fit ship to bust your balls as soon as you destroy their "thief" cheap ship. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:32:00 - [17] Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 13/01/2009 16:33:58 i take any salvage thats available, noob ships at gates, battlecruisers at stations, crap in complexs, its just litter as far as i'm concerned waiting to be cleared, but finding mission locations is like work, no way dude. If you wanted the salvage that badly why didn't you fit a salvager to a top slot and salvage whilst you kill the next one, also don't do missison in busy locations if you want to avoid being probed down. forgot the don't lol ...... continues overleaf.
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:32:00 - [18] Because CCP said so. The Ghost-training vote thread
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:36:00 - [19] Quote: I'm really speaking to the issue of no recourse. Live in highsec and of course you're not allowed to shoot people who pick up the "trash". Move to lowsec or zerosec, and you can shoot whoever you like. That's the bargain, like it or lump it. Hardpoint Rigs ECM Balancing
Rainson Arrvax Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Rainson Arrvax If you steal a can I have immediate recourse. Yeah, about that - it's a relatively recent change (2-ish years), which has caused the side that was supposedly helped by it MORE total problems than before they HAD a "recourse". If salvaging becomes an act of agression, expect "mission busters" of the future to not only take your salvage, but also LOOT too (because there's no additional risk), and also expect them to come back in a PvP-fit ship to bust your balls as soon as you destroy their "thief" cheap ship. You know, that's a really good point. Thanks for the well thought out and adult response.
Rainson Arrvax Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 13/01/2009 16:33:58 i take any salvage thats available, noob ships at gates, battlecruisers at stations, crap in complexs, its just litter as far as i'm concerned waiting to be cleared, but finding mission locations is like work, no way dude. If you wanted the salvage that badly why didn't you fit a salvager to a top slot and salvage whilst you kill the next one, also don't do missison in busy locations if you want to avoid being probed down. forgot the don't lol Fair points. Thanks.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:39:00 - [22] Basically all the reasons listed so far are half right. Once long long before salvage you could steal without recourse. This caused much whining so CCP added can ownership and aggro recourse. This caused much whining when players adapted can baiting. So you see, CCP learned that no matter what they do, someone is going to ***** about it. Why bother to change it? Funny thing is a lot of the gankers would love ownership rights on salvage. I think the mission runners should consider that one for a moment. ------ I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Davina Braben If you didn't salvage it yet it isn't your salvage Doesn't belong to him when he picks it up anyway, all Eve Online core data stuffs belongs to CCP, on their serverfarm. Which they don't really own either, as the local authorities/council/government just allow you to use it for certain things and stay there for a certain time in exchange for pieces of paper. Which they don't really own either, because we're all born unto this world long after mother earth had come to be to provide for us. But it doesn't all belong to mother earth either, as we must look furthur outwood, for the creator of all that we see! We cannot seem to find the creator of all that we see, so we'll just borrow all his stuff as we see fit for now... ...and that include your wreck. :p
Rainson Arrvax Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Quote: I'm really speaking to the issue of no recourse. Live in highsec and of course you're not allowed to shoot people who pick up the "trash". Move to lowsec or zerosec, and you can shoot whoever you like. That's the bargain, like it or lump it. Haha...ok...that's a good perspective! Good point.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:40:00 - [25] Because salvaging isnt stealing!
Hamoroid Hangcock	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:43:00 - [26] There is no such thing as stealing loot or salvage
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:44:00 - [27] Because someone has to clean up all that mess... ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
DjLowballer Amarr FLASHTROOPER CORP	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:47:00 - [28] Because they took the time to learn how to probe, come find you, bookmark, come back, learn to salvage, bring salvage ship, and put in the effort. Please Vote DjLowballer as your delegate to the CSM!
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.13 16:58:00 - [29] It's not stealing if it's not yours in the first place and CCP has made very clear that salvage (much like ore from asteroids) isn't yours until it's in your cargo hold.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:07:00 - [30] Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Arous Drephius Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:10:00 - [31] Originally by: CCP Prism X it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Devpwnt.
Jara Made	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:11:00 - [32] Yarr, I want to be a tinker when I grow up!
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:13:00 - [33] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. <3
EnslaverOfMinmatar	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:16:00 - [34] Buy a Nightmare and STFU!!!!!! uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ
Primnproper	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:16:00 - [35] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax Originally by: Salliene Originally by: Rainson Arrvax Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. Ah, the cheer of the ass! Care Bear Care Bear! Like living your life as a 12 year old is some great human jump in human evolution. You win, you are a superior human being and so strong...sitting there behind your computer screen. Oh, you make me so hot. You're power is sooooo intoxicating. Oh, tell me how much better you are than those of us with different goals in a game. Oh yes...yes...yes... Boy, that was great. Thanks for spending the time on someone so pathetic! Do you act this way when someone takes one of your pawns in chess (assuming you know how to play)? OMG, that's so funny. I can't believe that God didn't break the mold after you. Please, post some more about your greatness and how everyone else is not worth the air they take up. Its still soooo hot. Come on, I need it. Just so you know going off on one like this makes you look like a child, not the person who called you a carebear. Also one of the reasons people grief is to get exactly this sort of response from people who can't take being called names on the internet. As the old saying goes "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will (or should) never harm me"...
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:24:00 - [36] TBH I'd like to see aggression given to people who salvage other people's wrecks. This has absolutely nothing to do with buffing mission runners (I myself run missions in highsec on an alt, I don't salvage and really don't care if someone else does), but has more to do with the way eve in general works. In eve, if someone does something that ****es you off, you go and deal with them, or at least you have the option to. As it stands salvaging as a profession is just too easy to get into and has virtually no risk. You can nearly match a mission runner's income, without needing many skills, or an expensive ship. If you screw up and die, you lose a frigate, ONOES! It also bothers me that people try to bring dictionary definitions to this argument, when they clearly do not belong. "Go look up the word salvage" Oh? How about YOU go look up the word JETTISON. A jetcan is just as much "junk" as the wreck of a ship. And while we're at it: Let's allow dreadnoughts in highsec, because it's technically a battleship, just with an all-big-guns mentality. Dictionary definitions have no place in an argument about game mechanics.Period. What exactly is the reasoning behind not allowing people to shoot ninja salvagers? Giving them the ability certainly wouldn't stop the salvagers from doing what they do, so that crap about making it too easy/profitable to run missions is bunk, the only reason to do it is to make it as easy as possible to ninja-salvage, which given the potential income just doesn't make any sense.
InSession Shuugouteki	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:02:00 - [37] Edited by: InSession on 13/01/2009 18:01:54 <3 CCP I love the hostile game environment, don't ever lose it!
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:04:00 - [38] Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. then why are you making it less and less hostile for each expantion? Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:19:00 - [39] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. Simple solution: move on to another less populated system where there's no salvage thiefs. Problem solved, no need for any code change. ------------------------------------------
Ironshirt Ocean Level Deep DeStInY.	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:20:00 - [40] I read somewhere in another thread that warping out and leaving the salvager to deal with the mission spawns is moderately effective.
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:23:00 - [41] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. then why are you making it less and less hostile for each expantion? 10 bucks salvage theft is nerfed somehow with Apocalypha.
fatherted1989 Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:24:00 - [42] Tell em over local you've dropped em some stuff in a can. Works once in a while
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:25:00 - [43] Once in a blue moon some salvager takes the trouble of scanning my wrecks out where I do missions. Sometimes he's able to salvage those wrecks before I can. Personally, he's welcome to the salvage. Yes, I lose some Isk on it, but it's not a lot and can really help some new player get further in the game. Or he can make it his little profession to do this, if he hasn't already. Me, I think he's welcome to the salvage, as he has to actually work for it as well, and the Isk I lose on it is minimal anyway. If he goes beyond this, I can pop his ass. Why people get so worked up over a little bit of salvage is really beyond me. Seriously, get a grip and be a bit more generous. -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Battleclash	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:29:00 - [44] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. then why are you making it less and less hostile for each expantion? They're not making it less hostile, you're just becoming more emo Originally by: Vladimir Ilych Stupidity is universal.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Schalac So we all can laugh at you for taking so long in a mission and then steal your salvage. /thread.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Battleclash Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. then why are you making it less and less hostile for each expantion? They're not making it less hostile, you're just becoming more emo Yeah you're right. "Concord buffs" was actually the name of a goth band and "Wreck Ownership Change" was their hit single.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:40:00 - [47] This is really all I can do now. CCP (at the behest of the whiners) Nerfed every single ship I'm capable of flying. My Missile skills are meaningless in PvP. I have no drone skills to solo Level 4s. Thank all the nerfs for making Ninjasalvaging my only viable occupation
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.01.13 18:58:00 - [48] Buy an alt...get it into an Orca. Problem solved. Or you can setyourself up for pvp and kill whatever comes to steal if they try ganking you after you shoot 'em... There ARE tactics... Karrade-Confirming all pirate babies come from me Surfin's PlunderBunny-I always knew you were a woman Karrade-I am a man of many talents.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:07:00 - [49] I think I'm gonna start a new character and put him in a corp called *****Corp and do nothing but start threads like this with it all day. I need to be banned again tbh so I don't get distracted by the forum
DHG Cold Blooded Killers	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:21:00 - [50] Originally by: Ironshirt I read somewhere in another thread that warping out and leaving the salvager to deal with the mission spawns is moderately effective. I absolutely love it when a guy leaves me alone when I try to ninja salvage a highly profitable, npc BS heavy mission! After he leaves, I just swap out for a BS, run the mission, kill all the rats & possibly ransom back the mission objective for a nice amount of isk. Mad fun when carebears in a steaming rage try to suicide gank my covert ops after they discovered how badly they screwed themselves! Seriously, best thing to do is just accept the fact somebody is salvaging and not waste any more time on it. Ok, it might hurt your income a bit, but in the end, it's way less than loosing all the bounties and perhaps paying a ransom for some object you need.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:42:00 - [51] Originally by: DHG Originally by: Ironshirt I read somewhere in another thread that warping out and leaving the salvager to deal with the mission spawns is moderately effective. I absolutely love it when a guy leaves me alone when I try to ninja salvage a highly profitable, npc BS heavy mission! After he leaves, I just swap out for a BS, run the mission, kill all the rats & possibly ransom back the mission objective for a nice amount of isk. Mad fun when carebears in a steaming rage try to suicide gank my covert ops after they discovered how badly they screwed themselves! Seriously, best thing to do is just accept the fact somebody is salvaging and not waste any more time on it. Ok, it might hurt your income a bit, but in the end, it's way less than loosing all the bounties and perhaps paying a ransom for some object you need. I find this quote amusing, because it illustrates my point quite nicely. A salvage thief actually has the ability to ransom a mission runner if said carebear tries to act upon the theft, all the while the salvage thief himself never risks anything bigger then a frigate, and that's a problem.
Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:46:00 - [52] Edited by: Ghengis Tia on 13/01/2009 19:46:50 Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites. Rather than run their own missions, they rely on hard-working players to provide them a chance at some income. If the salvage is a significant part of the mission rewards, so what? Your combat skills, ammo, and risking the mission in the first place are considered of no value to them, even though you were directly responsible for creating the wrecks in the first place. They justify their behavior by saying "it is a legal game mechanic", "you get enough from missions anyway", and "I trained salvaging skills so I've earned the right to salvage". Most of them haven't the common courtesy to ask the mission runner or explorer for the salvage, they just start salvaging and f*** the other player. Move to a more remote area to mission, as the leeches prefer heavily populated mission areas to make their "occupation" even easier.
Huberek Morchu	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:50:00 - [53] Edited by: Huberek Morchu on 13/01/2009 19:53:32 Edited by: Huberek Morchu on 13/01/2009 19:52:09 Funny how you own the loot in the wreck, but not the wreck. Pick one or the other, CCP. I say put it back to no one own the wreck or the loot. Then we can hear everyone whine about ore theives again. I would also nerf loot and salvage. Too much isk there.
Malvorak Amarr IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.01.13 19:53:00 - [54] Stealing salvage its not ok, but who cares, its fun!! "I wave my private parts at your aunties son of a window dresser"
Mikal Drey Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:03:00 - [55] Edited by: Mikal Drey on 13/01/2009 20:06:19 Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. not to be picky or anything but when wrecks and salvaging were first introduced they caused a criminal flag if you salvaged wrecks which didnt "belong" to you and you werent ganged. you could criminally flag someone deliberatly by dropping gang or by simply warping off grid when they were mid salvage. It was changed to the current design. oh and the server believes that the wreck ownership belongs to the player who accepted the mission http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=766902 so its a catch 22 situation. the wrecks belong to the player and the salvage inside them is fair game to anyone. so can we have a mechanic where the wreck stays in space as a wreckage and the salvage inside doesnt destroy the actual wreck. that way when people complain their wrecks are being stolen in fact they arent.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:10:00 - [56] Originally by: Ghengis Tia Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites. Rather than run their own missions, they rely on hard-working players HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Running missions? Hard work? You're doing it wrong. It's far more work to scan people down and nick their wrecks than it is to create those wrecks to begin with (the latter can be done AFK ffs!). Quote: Your combat skills, ammo, and risking the mission in the first place are considered of no value Combat skills have far wide application than missions, so no they don't really add anything. Ammmo? You get bounties as reward for expending it, so that value is already covered. Risk? Non-existant and thus has no value. Quote: Most of them haven't the common courtesy to ask the mission runner or explorer for the salvage, they just start salvaging and f*** the other player. Why should they? It's there for the taking. I suppose you expect miners to ask others before they can use the same belt? You want the salvage? Then take it and don't leave it for others. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Hugo Splat Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:17:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. And here I was thinking 'Risk vs Reward' was a big part of the CCP plan also. Can you point out to me where the risk is please? I see the reward, I am just having trouble finding the risk.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:22:00 - [58] Originally by: Hugo Splat And here I was thinking 'Risk vs Reward' was a big part of the CCP plan also. Can you point out to me where the risk is please? I see the reward, I am just having trouble finding the risk. It's the same as for the mission runner. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:33:00 - [59] However, agreeing that pilots shouldn;t be allowed to hide in NPC corps.
Fish Hunter	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:34:00 - [60] If there's a ninja salvager about and you are getting ****ed off. Then just think of it as they are keeping the price of rigs lower than they would be otherwise. But really i've done a bit myself when i ran out of isk. And anyone who says they can make 15mil isk an hour salvaging is getting too lucky, i'd say its more around 5. If they are polite and ask if they can salvage be nice to them back and they will continue to be polite. Not a whole lot you can do if they beat you to your salvage though. Oh and for everyone that makes their own rigs from their salvage with an unreasearched bpo and no skills for every 4 rigs you make a manufacturer with the proper skills can make 5 with less parts.
Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:38:00 - [61] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ghengis Tia Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites. Rather than run their own missions, they rely on hard-working players HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Running missions? Hard work? You're doing it wrong. It's far more work to scan people down and nick their wrecks than it is to create those wrecks to begin with (the latter can be done AFK ffs!). Quote: Your combat skills, ammo, and risking the mission in the first place are considered of no value Combat skills have far wide application than missions, so no they don't really add anything. Ammmo? You get bounties as reward for expending it, so that value is already covered. Risk? Non-existant and thus has no value. Quote: Most of them haven't the common courtesy to ask the mission runner or explorer for the salvage, they just start salvaging and f*** the other player. Why should they? It's there for the taking. I suppose you expect miners to ask others before they can use the same belt? You want the salvage? Then take it and don't leave it for others. Get a life, Tippia. If it is more work to "scan down players and nick their wrecks" why do you do it other than to antagonize other players? At least you don't deny my first sentence, "Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites". You at least acknowlege the essence of your inner being. You seem to enjoy your denigrating behavior, Eve provides fun for all types of players, even you.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:42:00 - [62] You'd think it would get old after awhile, but the "Hard working missionrunner vs parasitic, pathetic, lazy thieves" tirade never does. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Chomin H'ak Integrated Takeovers	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Ghengis Tia Get a life, Tippia. If it is more work to "scan down players and nick their wrecks" why do you do it other than to antagonize other players? At least you don't deny my first sentence, "Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites". You at least acknowlege the essence of your inner being. You seem to enjoy your denigrating behavior, Eve provides fun for all types of players, even you. Um... she's belittling you how? I hate to say it (well, not really) but it's your behavior which is denigrating. Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Hugo Splat Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:45:00 - [64] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Hugo Splat And here I was thinking 'Risk vs Reward' was a big part of the CCP plan also. Can you point out to me where the risk is please? I see the reward, I am just having trouble finding the risk. It's the same as for the mission runner. They risk losing their ship. Small risk once they know the missions, but the risk remains.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Ghengis Tia Get a life, Tippia. If it is more work to "scan down players and nick their wrecks" why do you do it other than to antagonize other players? Beats me. Some like a challenge, I guess. Quote: At least you don't deny my first sentence, "Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites". You at least acknowlege the essence of your inner being. Yes, I'm lazy as hell. That's why I run missions. Or did you assume that I was a ninja salvager trying to protect my income?! LMAO no. Can't be bothered — I salvage my own missions as I go since it's much easier and it leaves nothing to the poor ninjas. …not that they ever find me — I've been ninja'd once in the last year. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.13 20:46:00 - [66] Originally by: Hugo Splat They risk losing their ship. Small risk once they know the missions, but the risk remains. Well, there's your answer then. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Solomon Weyland Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:47:00 - [67] Just blow up any wrecks they go for, all of them if necessary. Its the simple solution. You will still get the money from bounties and the mission reward itself. All they will get is wasted time and probes.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Battleclash Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. then why are you making it less and less hostile for each expantion? They're not making it less hostile, you're just becoming more emo Yeah you're right. "Concord buffs" was actually the name of a goth band and "Wreck Ownership Change" was their hit single. but they spawn less now. you just take a bigger sec hit but can deal more damage before you die.
Scarlet Pimpdaddy Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. This
fatherted1989 Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:16:00 - [70] IMHO it should be equal to flipping a can, i.e i can blow you to ****. I, do all the work killing I, should be allowed to salvage (which is very profitable) in my own time You, should not be able to just take without some sort of repercussion.
Darwin Duck A Quest Millitia	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:33:00 - [71] Doesn't stealing salvage flag him so you can attack? A TEF (temporarly enemy flag) should be applied in such situation (IMHO). Then you can fight it out for the wrecks.
Blastil	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:38:00 - [72] Quote: When property is lost at sea and rescued by another, the rescuer is entitled to claim a salvage award on the salved property. Essentially salvage is free. Since the majority of salvage cannot or may not be returnable to the owner, a salvage ship essentialy has free reign. That IS my applying IRL law to EVE, but the dev's reasoning is the same. I'm not off base here.
Lex Alandar Cskillzone DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:47:00 - [73] The way I see it, the problem is not that people are able to 'steal' your salvage but rather that you are not allowed recourse against it. Yet you continue to choose to run missions in an area where this applies to you. I think you will find ninja-salvaging is non-existent in lowsec. Ninja-salvager would not be a viable profession but for the thousands of carebears who are too ingrained with this idea of 'safety' to take a little risk for their reward. Move to lowsec, get some blues, problem solved.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Lex Alandar I think you will find ninja-salvaging is non-existent in lowsec. Ninja-salvager would not be a viable profession but for the thousands of carebears who are too ingrained with this idea of 'safety' to take a little risk for their reward. Move to lowsec, get some blues, problem solved. High sec is fine too as ninja salvagers only work in the high traffic systems otherwise it would take too long to find a mission to nick the salvage off of.
Druadan BLAM Industries	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:56:00 - [75] Tell me again why mission runners thinking they need additional protected rewards for the mind-numbingly simple task they do to line their pockets is okay?
Lady Aja Caldari Scarlet Scourge Society	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:58:00 - [76] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. FIRST! sorry to hijack a thread but... if what you say is true.. eve is not meant to be a breaze. then why the hell is the orca making it so easy for ppl to mine in 100% safty in npc corps? it can be got around in a player corp or alliance. but allowing non corp/alliance pilots to access the hanger bay? not on CCP. 140k m3 secure cargo container at maxed out skills and t2 fittings. what you gonna do about it ccp?
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:29:00 - [77] I think that in a game in which the devs and players constantly cite 'risk v. reward' as a design consideration, it's a shame that the dregs of the galaxy are have a protected right to zero-risk income generation. No other profession in the game -- including high-sec mining, where the miner is at risk from thieves and suicide gankers -- is protected in this way. Nobody (well, nobody reasonable, at least) is asking for the mechanics to be changed to prevent salvage theft. The problem is only that the salvage thieves are invulnerable to retaliation of any sort, since they do not generate an aggression flag like can thieves do (which is odd, since wrecks replaces loot cans which did generate such flags), and the salvage thieves are generally in NPC corps and are therefore un-wardec'able. Three possible solutions: 1) Make salvaging wrecks cause an aggression flag (not a criminal flag). This means the mission runner can choose to defend the wrecks assuming they are willing to accept the risk inherent in doing so. 2) Disallow salvaging by any member of an NPC corp. (Noting that there are already rules about hopping in and out of corps to avoid war-decs.) This has the dual benefit of allowing the mission-runner to dec the thief, and also the side effect of encouraging mission-runners to move out of NPC corps. 3) Have ships drop seperate wrecks and loot cans, which would return this aspect of the game to the pre-wreck days as far as loot ownership was concerned, while making the wrecks themselves 'first come, first served'.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:32:00 - [78] It is impossible to "steal" salvage by design. It is waste that belongs to no one. You can't claim it any more than you could claim space dust.
Roymundo Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 02:55:00 - [79] Originally by: fatherted1989 IMHO it should be equal to flipping a can, i.e i can blow you to ****. I, do all the work killing I, should be allowed to salvage (which is very profitable) in my own time You, should not be able to just take without some sort of repercussion. nah. the laws of salvage in eve as in real life are pretty simple; i.e: first come first serve. take for example those who salvage spanish wrecks (deep blue sea kinda situation). they have the right to take what they want.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 05:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Becq Starforged it's a shame that the dregs of the galaxy are have a protected right to zero-risk income generation. I agree, missions need to be removed or some risk added to them! Quote: No other profession in the game -- including high-sec mining, where the miner is at risk from thieves and suicide gankers -- is protected in this way. Uhm… if suicide gankers is a risk for miners, then they're certanly a risk to salvagers as well, so there goes the argument about zero risk. Quote: The problem is only that the salvage thieves are invulnerable to retaliation of any sort …in exactly the same was as someone mining from my asteroid field is invulnerable to retaliation. Quote: 3) Have ships drop seperate wrecks and loot cans, which would return this aspect of the game to the pre-wreck days as far as loot ownership was concerned, while making the wrecks themselves 'first come, first served'. Uhm… You mean kind of like how it is right now, only with more crap on the overview? Sure. This means that the (supposed) problem is already solved. And no change is needed. Originally by: Lex Alandar The way I see it, the problem is not that people are able to 'steal' your salvage but rather that you are not allowed recourse against it. Depends on your definition of recourse. You can always simply salvage the wrecks first… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
TomNewDelhi MTND Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:17:00 - [81] why do some people get so animated over a computer game?
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.01.14 06:27:00 - [82] Originally by: TomNewDelhi why do some people get so animated over a computer game? Because they obviously care. Which is funny. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:00:00 - [83] Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is. So you say but still your actions speaks against this bulzhit. When you have shiny little 0.0 space and you want to have NICE fleet battle you can call up your dev frie... create petition to GM and ask more hamsters for your node. Good and nice except in your reality you think that EVE has 2 types of people: Hi-Sec macromission runners and 0.0 sec UBER player political yay we rule-people but you kinda forget that you created your stupid and worthless FW to be in LOWSEC! Last nite we were DUMB enought to have 20 blob in gate and we waited 3 hours that enemy can gather fleet. They finally got 3x more people than us and engaged us. Sadly only winner is that match was LAG. So whats the point of doing "epic fw fights" when your pathentic servers cannot even handle SMALL battles and your effort to boost fleet battles is towards 0.0 space. Why I even bother .. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Victoria Ehr Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:05:00 - [84] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. Make it more Hostile by flagging people who take salvage from someone else's wreck, just as if they stole loot from that wreck. -------------------------------------------- Glory to the State and Tibus Heth.
Vikarion Caldari White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:12:00 - [85] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. You, I, and Zulupark need to go out drinking sometime. I'll buy. Until then, can you bonk Greyscale with a baseball bat every time he tries to nerf hi-sec wars?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:19:00 - [86] Originally by: Victoria Ehr Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. Make it more Hostile by flagging people who take salvage from someone else's wreck, just as if they stole loot from that wreck. Or make it more hostile by extending the NPC aggression to other players. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:32:00 - [87] Originally by: Akita T "Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?" Because it's not "EVE : Chronicles of Riddick - 'You keep what you kill' "... Haha Your cap ship deserves CPR's!
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 08:39:00 - [88] Haha, salvage whine thread got pwned by the database developer. That shows how cemented ninja salvaging is and how it will be in the game forever. Screw you people who said CCP would cave in to the whiners eventually. Originally by: CCP Prism X EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. Hail, CCP Prism X! Burn the whiners!
Navtiqes Noob Mercs	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:01:00 - [89] Edited by: Navtiqes on 14/01/2009 09:01:37 Back when in the day we didn't even have salvage. Kids these days take everything for granted. We had to disassemble minmatari ships for spare parts. Not that it was particularly hard in itself, but the matari kept trying to undock while we were working on their ships. I tell ya, being forced through warptravel while hanging from the sails of a Tempest in a welding harness surviving only on the pockets of air under you fingernails gets old pretty fast.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:09:00 - [90] Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 14/01/2009 09:11:05 I hereby propose a petition to include a booklet detailing some of the more basic real world laws, such as the maritime law of salvage and their applications in EVE, so as to avoid unnecessary Customer Confusion. Honestly, look at it this way. You are the Commanding Officer on the deck of a ship designed for naval warfare belonging to the United States of America. You are in enemy waters, and have just sunk a insert-fictional-country-here's very expensive ship. Technically, the ship and everything that is on it, having been produced by them, and formerly belonging to them, should be theirs first by right - however, you believe you have the right to it instead, because you're the one that put all the hard work into sinking it. So what of ore thieves? Technically, by the same kind of justification, the ore they steal is rightfully theirs, as they had to scout around looking for ore to steal. Salvage/loot thieves in your missions have a right to the salvage/loot, because they had to first find your mission and get to the salvage/loot they wanted to take. Miners should have right-of-way in belts if they arrived before you, because they did just that. Heck, traders should have a right to trade routes, if they're the first to find them, because of that simple fact; they're the ones that initially put in the work to find and exploit it, and someone else is coming and trying to muck it up for them. You should be grateful that you are afforded any kind of recourse at all, rather than complain about not being able to lay claim to something that technically belongs to the first one to retrieve it. ninja edit Technically, my use of the word 'technically' is not technical. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:28:00 - [91] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 09:29:04 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ghengis Tia Some lazy players enjoy being considered thieves and parasites. Rather than run their own missions, they rely on hard-working players HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Running missions? Hard work? You're doing it wrong. It's far more work to scan people down and nick their wrecks than it is to create those wrecks to begin with (the latter can be done AFK ffs!). If it's so much easier to create the wrecks than it is to find them, then go run missions yourself and stop being a leech. It's not right that someone can follow the ship I'm shooting and immediately salvage it just after it pops. At that point, there is no opportunity to clean up as I go. You must also consider that targets can be much further than the range of a tractor beam, so immediately salvaging our own wrecks is out of the question. Plus you lose two high slots to a tractor beam and salvager. Regardless of how the server code considers salvage, the wreck itself is still color coded according to whether or not it belongs to you. That alone could be used to trigger a criminal flag. Not everyone can afford a second account with which to train and operate a salvage alt and not everyone can run two accounts on the same system at the same time. CCP is constantly "balancing" the game, but in this case, there is no balance. They can steal the salvage and I can't do anything about it. How is that balanced?
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:34:00 - [92] Originally by: Hugo Splat And here I was thinking 'Risk vs Reward' was a big part of the CCP plan also. Can you point out to me where the risk is please? I see the reward, I am just having trouble finding the risk. You're missing the 'Effort' part of that equation. Stealing salvage is a fairly worthless activity, imho. You won't make much money at all with guristas or serpentis loot, and the rest seem akin to grinding lv2 missions, imho. So laugth at the thieves, either they're fools, or they do this to annoy you, and mocking them will make their acts pointless.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Mintoko If it's so much easier to create the wrecks than it is to find them, then go run missions yourself and stop being a leech. I do run missions. That's why I know how AFK-ishly easy it is. Quote: It's not right that someone can follow the ship I'm shooting and immediately salvage it just after it pops. Apart from the fact that it is right, the question has to be asked: why do you let them? If you have an uninvited salvager in your mission, why do you keep feeding him wrecks? Quote: Plus you lose two high slots to a tractor beam and salvager. Lose two slots or lose the salvage — your choice. (Or fly a ship where you have two non-weapon highslots, and it won't feel like such a loss). Quote: They can steal the salvage and I can't do anything about it. How is that balanced? Apart from the fact that they can't steal salvage and that you can do something about it, you get first right of refusal (on top of bounties and loot) — they get sloppy seconds. Seems more than balanced to me… or rather, over-balanced in favour of the wreck-creator.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:12:00 - [94] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto It is impossible to "steal" salvage by design. It is waste that belongs to no one. You can't claim it any more than you could claim space dust. Again, you're playing with the definition of salvage. Stop it. :) My proposal....allow us the ability to freely shoot those who STEAL our salvage. If the mission area is closed with existing wrecks, then it's fair game. Of course, the ability to locate areas with wreckage will need to be added. ATM, you can see it on your scanner, but can't warp to it unless you're warping to a ship in the same general area.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:14:00 - [95] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto It is impossible to "steal" salvage by design. It is waste that belongs to no one. You can't claim it any more than you could claim space dust. Again, you're playing with the definition of salvage. Stop it. :) My proposal....allow us the ability to freely shoot those who STEAL our salvage. If the mission area is closed with existing wrecks, then it's fair game. Of course, the ability to locate areas with wreckage will need to be added. ATM, you can see it on your scanner, but can't warp to it unless you're warping to a ship in the same general area. Your proposal has already been made many times, considered and rejected by CCP. See Dev response in this very thread.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:17:00 - [96] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. Comment
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:18:00 - [97] Quote: Apart from the fact that it is right, the question has to be asked: why do you let them? If you have an uninvited salvager in your mission, why do you keep feeding him wrecks? What are we supposed to do, just stop running the mission? Some missions are on a tight schedule, some people don't have the luxury of spending all day online. If they stop the mission so that they quit feeding you wrecks, they waste their time just sitting around doing nothing. Quote: Lose two slots or lose the salvage ù your choice. (Or fly a ship where you have two non-weapon highslots, and it won't feel like such a loss). Personally, I don't have a problem with this. My ship has the two extra slot for tractor and salvager. Quote: Apart from the fact that they can't steal salvage and that you can do something about it, you get first right of refusal (on top of bounties and loot) ù they get sloppy seconds. Seems more than balanced to meà or rather, over-balanced in favour of the wreck-creator. you're still ignoring the fact that not all wrecks are within the 20km range of the tractor beam....Factor in a slow moving battleship and there is no chance for your "first right of refusal". How is this balance?
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:20:00 - [98] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. Comment lets add in the 2-6 hour period cans-wrecks turn white and are tractorable by whoever gets locks on it first - it could loose all tags and be for whoever finds it
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:21:00 - [99] Originally by: Malcanis Your proposal has already been made many times, considered and rejected by CCP. See Dev response in this very thread. I've read this entire thread and found no dev response to the exact proposal and I don't have time to sift through the entire forum. If you're going to give reference to a previous decision, afford others the courtesy of a link.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:24:00 - [100] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours) Comment
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:32:00 - [101] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: Malcanis Your proposal has already been made many times, considered and rejected by CCP. See Dev response in this very thread. I've read this entire thread and found no dev response to the exact proposal and I don't have time to sift through the entire forum. If you're going to give reference to a previous decision, afford others the courtesy of a link. See the sticky thread in the missions forum.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:34:00 - [102] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours) Comment
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:36:00 - [103] Originally by: Mintoko What are we supposed to do, just stop running the mission? Yes. If they are there and keep beating you to the punch, stop doing it. Easy. Quote: Some missions are on a tight schedule, some people don't have the luxury of spending all day online. Such as? I have yet to see a single mission that can't be done in half the speed-bonus time. This includes the 6h missions, and comes from me who likes flying (supposedly) underpowered ship which (also supposedly) take longer than neeed to finish the missions. Think blaster-battlecruiser here. I can't spend all day online either, and I have no problem finishing these missions. (As an aside, many of the longer ones are highly farmable and you don't want to finish them in one day anyway — the bounties, loot and salvage of even a single repeat outweighs the time bonus by far). Quote: you're still ignoring the fact that not all wrecks are within the 20km range of the tractor beam....Factor in a slow moving battleship and there is no chance for your "first right of refusal". You chose to use a battleship. You chose to kill the thing. You chose to kill them at that range. You are in complete control of every aspect of where and when the wreck will appear — you have first right of refusal, period. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:37:00 - [104] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours) Comment
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:47:00 - [105] ollobrains2, stop spamming your post.
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:50:00 - [106] Because. Now, please, get over it. Trit bars aren't were THAT much...
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:51:00 - [107] Originally by: Rondo Gunn Because. Now, please, get over it. Trit bars aren't were THAT much... What are you talking about?
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:56:00 - [108] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: Rondo Gunn Because. Now, please, get over it. Trit bars aren't were THAT much... What are you talking about? Answering the OP's titular query my good man. What are you talking about? shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:59:00 - [109] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:00:19 Originally by: Rondo Gunn Answering the OP's titular query my good man. What are you talking about? To make it easier for others to understand your response, please use the "quote" button. Otherwise, we have no idea who you're talking to. The OP had made no mention of trit bars, so your response made no sense.
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:02:00 - [110] Originally by: Mintoko Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:00:19 Originally by: Rondo Gunn Answering the OP's titular query my good man. What are you talking about? To make it easier for others to understand your response, please use the "quote" button. Otherwise, we have no idea who you're talking to. The OP had made no mention of trit bars, so your response made no sense. No, I think you only wanted to know if I was talking too you. Lonely? Do you need to cuddle? Well, don't look at me man, I don't swing that way, ya dig? shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:06:00 - [111] Originally by: Rondo Gunn Originally by: Mintoko Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:00:19 Originally by: Rondo Gunn Answering the OP's titular query my good man. What are you talking about? To make it easier for others to understand your response, please use the "quote" button. Otherwise, we have no idea who you're talking to. The OP had made no mention of trit bars, so your response made no sense. No, I think you only wanted to know if I was talking too you. Lonely? Do you need to cuddle? Well, don't look at me man, I don't swing that way, ya dig? Don't be a smart a*. I knew you weren't talking to me, but I couldn't tell who you were* talking to.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:11:00 - [112] Edited by: Davina Braben on 14/01/2009 11:15:38 This thread is so epic I think I'm going to start salvaging other people's wrecks
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:15:00 - [113] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: Rondo Gunn Originally by: Mintoko Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:00:19 Originally by: Rondo Gunn Answering the OP's titular query my good man. What are you talking about? To make it easier for others to understand your response, please use the "quote" button. Otherwise, we have no idea who you're talking to. The OP had made no mention of trit bars, so your response made no sense. No, I think you only wanted to know if I was talking too you. Lonely? Do you need to cuddle? Well, don't look at me man, I don't swing that way, ya dig? Don't be a smart a*. I knew you weren't talking to me, but I couldn't tell who you were* talking to. I would rather be a smartass than a dumbass any day of the week. Buck up son. shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:21:00 - [114] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. 'Nuff Said. Quit your tears, Carebears
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:26:00 - [115] Originally by: Napro Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. 'Nuff Said. Quit your tears, Carebears Not all mission runners are carebears.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:33:00 - [116] The ones producing the tears are carebears. Why do they think they're owed so much from CCP for missioning? If you don't like the mechanics of mission-grinding.... quit grinding! Really don't even see why their arguing for an aggression timer... I salvage in a AF and I'd run circles against any PvE fitted ship
Vincent Death Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:33:00 - [117] Apparently a lot of us are whiny idiots though. Oh noes, someone is stealing my salvage! I know, I'll continue missioning in overcrowded hubs without alts/low sp friends to salvage for me. I definitely will not change my fitting or even leave the mission for a few seconds to make things harder for my uninvited quest. Any problem that I encounter must immediately be addressed because my money is worth more than the salvage thief's. TL:DR sarcasm free version: Dodos adapt quicker than you.
Kitty McKitty Gallente The Kitty Kitty Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:36:00 - [118] THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS THEY ARE NOT YOUR WRECKS
Hungo Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:36:00 - [119] I had this problem, so i started getting people ninjaring my missions, so i used a golem and salvaged as i went along, i thin had my alt in a cov ops sat in the mission area and when they trie to flip my cans i scrammed n owned him
Xylia Ailyx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:37:00 - [120] The word "stealing" in the topic line is misleading, how can you steal that which has no owner? The only entity I could see as "the owner" of mission wrecks would be the NPC pirate corp (True Power for instance), not the guy who blew them up
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:37:00 - [121] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:39:19 Originally by: Napro The ones producing the tears are carebears. Why do they think they're owed so much from CCP for missioning? If you don't like the mechanics of mission-grinding.... quit grinding! Really don't even see why their arguing for an aggression timer... I salvage in a AF and I'd run circles against any PvE fitted ship Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Quote: The word "stealing" in the topic line is misleading, how can you steal that which has no owner? The only entity I could see as "the owner" of mission wrecks would be the NPC pirate corp (True Power for instance), not the guy who blew them up If I only had a few dollars for every time someone has mentioned this in this one thread....
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:40:00 - [122] Mintoko, fine, then what about this? The agent has given you a mission; that mission's only objective is to eliminate a single target at the end of a deadspace complex. It just so happens that the thingamajiggies in the ships in the pockets before the final one happen to be locking the gates, and they're not up for discussing your safe passage, so your only choice is to blow them up. So, if you think about it, those NPCs aren't really part of the mission your agent gave you; they're simply people that are tagging along. Want to know why I say this? You're in a merc corp. You have been given a contract to eliminate CCP Oveur. All the other devs have decided they're going to fight to protect him, but they aren't your targets and there is no profit from your employer in killing them, so you ignore them and go straight for CCP Oveur. Somebody else comes along and kills the other devs - are you going to complain if they take the salvage+loot from the ships? Of course not! They weren't part of your objective and you didn't have any intention of killing them anyway! But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. I've got news for you mate; those NPC wrecks? They belong to the NPC corps - not to you. The loot and salvage on them? Belong to the NPC corps, not you. The contents of the NPC buildings you blew up? Belong to the NPC corps, not you. You are in fact being afforded a luxury that dictates that loot dropped from these destroyed NPC entities belong to you. However, as per maritime law, salvage belongs to whoever comes to strip it first. Honestly, I think it would be hilarious if we had to start seeing contracts taken out by NPCs against players that have destroyed, looted and pillaged NPC entities, in missions or otherwise; where strong NPC forces come to punish players for their deeds. Hell, all being fair, it would only be normal for this to be the case, because surely nobody could take THAT much pushing around and not stand up to it eventually? Heaven forbid this should be the case, tho, or you'd start complaining when only you are focused on, not the guy that was actually taking the salvage you believe belonged to you when it actually belonged to the NPC's but CCP decided to finally throw you your bone and gave salvage an ownership flag, meaning that through anyone taking the salvage/loot, your 'time till next NPC WTFBBQ-fest event' flag ticks a few seconds closer to D-Day, purely because you had inferred rights to the salvage/loot. I can think of a million and one ways that your own justifications are driven against you, and yet, the simplest way to look at the non-issue is to simply accept that salvage works on a first come, first served basis, and does not have ownership. This way, it is nobody's fault but your own if you do not get to the salvage of the rats you killed, because let's face it; if you can't beat them, join them. There is NOTHING stopping you, apart from your moral high ground, from probing out other mission runners and taking THEIR salvage; in turn completely removing the possibility of 'your' missions getting probed out, since they quite simply do not exist. As for those saying ninja salvaging isn't profitable: Likelyhood of finding an Angel Blockade in some of the mission hubs is 1 per 20 minutes Likelyhood of it being near-completed by not yet stripped of salvage is about 1 in 3 Average yield in salvage is around 25mil isk Time to strip the pocket of all medium and larger wrecks with a properly fitted ship is approximately 8 minutes, depending on the degree of kiting 3 * 0.333 * 25 = 24.975mil isk/hour Assuming you can chain the missions, and have a turnaround of 10min per, you can make up to 150mil/hour. It's a bit of a gamble, though. Some days can be dry, others pouring with isk-rain.
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:41:00 - [123] Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Because CCP says so? Same reason for why you actually have the ability to do anything in this game?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:43:00 - [124] Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 11:44:25 Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? You know what? You've convinced me. I want killrights on anyone who enters my asteroid field. What have they done to freely take without recourse? The nerve of those slimy bastard!
Bumbum George	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:44:00 - [125] Originally by: Decarus Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Because CCP says so? /thread
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:45:00 - [126] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [127] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 11:44:25 Originally by: Mintoko Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? You know what? You've convinced me. I want killrights on anyone who enters my asteroid field. What have they done to freely take without recourse? The nerve of those slimy bastard! This has nothing to do with mining and you know it. We were talking about salvaging wrecks.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [128] Originally by: Mintoko Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 11:39:19 Originally by: Napro The ones producing the tears are carebears. Why do they think they're owed so much from CCP for missioning? If you don't like the mechanics of mission-grinding.... quit grinding! Really don't even see why their arguing for an aggression timer... I salvage in a AF and I'd run circles against any PvE fitted ship Why do you think that you are owed the ability to freely take without recourse? Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:47:00 - [129] Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 11:48:35 Originally by: Mintoko ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate. Actually, you can — it just takes some precise navigation, fast ship and a bit of patience… Originally by: Mintoko This has nothing to do with mining and you know it. We were talking about salvaging wrecks. Incorrect. It has everything to do with mining since it's the same kind of universal resource — free and available to whoever extracts it first. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:48:00 - [130] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate. You're blowing them up because they're there and in your way, not because they're your objective.
Chipan Asty	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:48:00 - [131] It's just not fair is it. It's not fair that someone blows up my hauler in hi sec when I'm autopiloting with a bils worth of cargo. It's not fair that I get blown up when jumping unscouted in to low sec. It's not fair that they still kill me even when I ask in local for them to stop. It's not fair that mission runners can grind level 4's in hi sec when they should only be in low sec so the pirates can probe them out. It's not fair that CCP introduced wrecks that can be salvaged by anyone because only the loot belongs to you. Lifes just not fair.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:51:00 - [132] Pod me sideways you people whinging are pathetic. "Oh no, people are slightly diminishing my totally safe source of income which I don't need for anything but slightly better spaceships for generating totally safe ISK".
Yesh Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:53:00 - [133] Originally by: Chipan Asty It's not fair that mission runners can grind level 4's in hi sec when they should only be in low sec so the pirates can probe them out. I completely agree with my alt here. Let the mission runners have agro rights on their wrecks, but as a compromise all level 4's should only be available in low sec. Sounds fair to me.
Yesh Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:55:00 - [134] Originally by: Davina Braben Pod me sideways you people whinging are pathetic. "Oh no, people are slightly diminishing my totally safe source of income which I don't need for anything but slightly better spaceships for generating totally safe ISK". Also this
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:55:00 - [135] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours) Comment
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:56:00 - [136] Originally by: Eran Laude Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja But wait! There's more! You completely ignore the details of your mission and automagicallywithaspecialdoseofsupercalifragilisticexpialidocious decide that everything in the mission location your agent gave you 'belongs to you'. ...and you ignore a fact you yourself mentioned in that you can't complete your mission without blowing to hell those who are "tagging along" and locking the gate. You're blowing them up because they're there and in your way, not because they're your objective. It doesn't matter....he was trying to say that by going outside of the mission's parameters, I have no right to the spoils of battle. Either way...you blow them up, you should have the right to salvage them. If someone else comes in and takes them before you've even had a chance to get close to it, you should be allowed to shoot them. They then have the option of running away.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:58:00 - [137] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours) Comment
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:59:00 - [138] Originally by: Napro Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME And I will repeat.... not all mission runners are carebears.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 11:59:00 - [139] Edited by: Tippia on 14/01/2009 12:00:46 Originally by: Mintoko you blow them up, you should have the right to salvage them You already do. If you choose not to exercise that right, though, you shouldn't be surprised if someone else comes along and takes care of the crap you leave behind. Quote: If someone else comes in and takes them before you've even had a chance to get close to it, you should be allowed to shoot them. You've already had that chance. You were too slow and they beat you to it.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:02:00 - [140] Originally by: Tippia Actually, you can ù it just takes some precise navigation, fast ship and a bit of patienceà Ah...I've actually thought about that, but being in a deadspace area, you'd need to be able to run the mission in that small, fast ship as you can't bookmark and warp directly into a deadspace pocket. You get sent to the first gate into it.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:06:00 - [141] Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: Napro Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME And I will repeat.... not all mission runners are carebears. Nothing worse than an aloof Carebear. Whining about current game-mechanics. Check. Whining about things being owed to you. Check. Carebear. Check.
Modahn Etch Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:12:00 - [142] afaik it can only be called salvage once its created in your cargo. you own the wrecks not the salvage that comes from them. also What ATN said.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:18:00 - [143] Originally by: Mintoko Ah...I've actually thought about that, but being in a deadspace area, you'd need to be able to run the mission in that small, fast ship as you can't bookmark and warp directly into a deadspace pocket. You get sent to the first gate into it. Small is optional. Fast is all that's needed. Depends what you mean by "small" too — HACs do very well in L4s; AFs do very well in L3s. Quote: The problem of the mission runners is that the salvage is being taken as we watch. It's not "left behind" and if it's "crap" don't take it...Go find something that isn't crap. You did't take it, but rather went on to the next enemy — you left it behind. If you wanted it, you could have picked it up there and then. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:22:00 - [144] Originally by: Napro Originally by: Mintoko Originally by: Napro Read the dev quote ...... Salvage was introduced to create a mini-profession, NOT SUPPLEMENT A CAREBEAR'S INCOME And I will repeat.... not all mission runners are carebears. Nothing worse than an aloof Carebear. Whining about current game-mechanics. Check. Whining about things being owed to you. Check. Carebear. Check. You don't know me...don't make assumptions. I never said anything about my being "owed". The game mechanics you accuse us of whining about allow you to take without repercussion. If you wanna take the salvage, fine, do it, but I want to shoot you for it. That's all we want. We're not here to discuss the moral issues of who owns a wreck, but the mission runner did produce it...ammo costs money. Salvaging a mission can make up for some of the crappy rewards. We should be able to fight you for it. Originally by: Davina Braben Pod me sideways you people whinging are pathetic. "Oh no, people are slightly diminishing my totally safe source of income which I don't need for anything but slightly better spaceships for generating totally safe ISK". Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:24:00 - [145] ollo, stop spamming the same post. If anyone wants to respond to it, they will.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:31:00 - [146] Originally by: Mintoko You don't know me...don't make assumptions. I never said anything about my being "owed". The game mechanics you accuse us of whining about allow you to take without repercussion. If you wanna take the salvage, fine, do it, but I want to shoot you for it. That's all we want. We're not here to discuss the moral issues of who owns a wreck, but the mission runner did produce it...ammo costs money. Salvaging a mission can make up for some of the crappy rewards. We should be able to fight you for it. You're making assumptions their yourself. I always trip the aggro timer during ninja runs (simply because the loot is worth Much more than the salvage). 9 times out of 10 carebears will stand idly by and do nothing simply because they aren't fit for pvp while I am. The few that do engage are noobs in supertank Drakes that I have no problem chasing off. In effect, you're making a big stink out of nothing. Anyway, if you Carebears are willing to send all Level 4s to low-sec.. I'd lose my ability to salvage without repercussion... but then you'd lose your ability to Carebear mish grind. Something tells me the vast majority of you won't go for it :P
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:35:00 - [147] Originally by: Mintoko The game mechanics you accuse us of whining about allow you to take without repercussion. If you wanna take the salvage, fine, do it, but I want to shoot you for it. That's all we want. We're not here to discuss the moral issues of who owns a wreck, but the mission runner did produce it...ammo costs money. Salvaging a mission can make up for some of the crappy rewards. We should be able to fight you for it. Hey moron, read the **ing CCP developer repsonse. He went over this. No one is stealing. I do not reach into your cargohold and steal anything. IT IS FLOATING IN SPACE. Do you not understand the concept of space? or floating? Do you know what "it" is? Originally by:** Mintoko Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take. Hey, have you ever completed a mission before? there are thousands of guides on how to do it. You never get scrambled, you can always warp out. You never die in a mission, you know exactly what is coming and exactly how to fit and if you die in a mission to anything but lag, then you fail at this game and fail at basic concepts such as reading and math. I suggest you: 1) Learn to read 2) Read the CCP response 3) Learn how to think 4) Think 5) Realize that this is the way the game is and you cannot change it 6) GTFO 7) Never procreate
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:38:00 - [148] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. In addition 2-6 hours all cans become unowned ( and wrecks) and are tractorable by whomever gets the lock on it also. ( ownership tags vanish after 2 hours)
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:48:00 - [149] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 12:49:44 Originally by: Vaal Erit Hey moron, read the **ing CCP developer repsonse. He went over this. No one is stealing. I do not reach into your cargohold and steal anything. IT IS FLOATING IN SPACE. Do you not understand the concept of space? or floating? Do you know what "it" is? Originally by:** Mintoko Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take. Hey, have you ever completed a mission before? there are thousands of guides on how to do it. You never get scrambled, you can always warp out. You never die in a mission, you know exactly what is coming and exactly how to fit and if you die in a mission to anything but lag, then you fail at this game and fail at basic concepts such as reading and math. I suggest you: 1) Learn to read 2) Read the CCP response 3) Learn how to think 4) Think 5) Realize that this is the way the game is and you cannot change it 6) GTFO 7) Never procreate Why is it that anyone who can't come up with their own thoughts always resort to name calling and hiding behind a dev? Let me clue you in...one dev is not the final word. Things can change. Before the invention of wrecks, a can would be dropped. This can was FLOATING IN SPACE, yet if you took from it and it wasn't yours....oh no!!... YOU COULD GET SHOT FOR IT!. But why? It was floating in space.....the contents weren't being taken from the cargohold, yet it was still considered theft. Wrecks should be no different. They're produced from the destruction of a ship just as the cans were. When did this come down to mission skills? Never get scrambled???? Have YOU ever completed a mission? My first or second level 4 mission had warp scramblers. Perhaps YOU shouldn't procreate and hopefully, you haven't already.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:49:00 - [150] Originally by: ollobrains2 my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are The new MY RAVEN WAS FITTED WITH THE FOLLOWING meme? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:12:00 - [151] Salvaging a wreck is desecrating a war grave, and should be punishable by CONCORD.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:21:00 - [152] Quote: Missions being totally safe source of income???? Please....don't make me choke while laughing at that. The salvagers have a truly safe source of income in the salvage that they take. It's very, very hard to lose a ship to a mission if you're awake. Missions are predictable, well documented, don't adapt to your ship and tactics.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:35:00 - [153] Edited by: Mintoko on 14/01/2009 13:35:52 Originally by: Gypsio III Salvaging a wreck is desecrating a war grave, and should be punishable by CONCORD. Nice twist... I like it.
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:37:00 - [154] I don't get this at all :S Even WoW lets you skin other peoples kills, this is no different. It's not looting it's salvaging, salvaging is a profession. Professions nodes are always free game. WTF is next? People are stealing my asteroid!! It should be flagged to me when I start mining it!!!
XJennieX Minmatar Children of Gjallarhorn	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:47:00 - [155] Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. aside that he is doing missions,how is that a carebear behaviour? many people who are in big 0.0 alliances still do lvl4 missions because those give good income.. i think you are just a 12 year old who dont know anything else but trying to troll people.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:54:00 - [156] Originally by: XJennieX do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. In that case, he could have spared us a 6-page thread and gotten a ton of support by rephrasing it as wishing that "people could not hide behind NPC corps and that he could wardec them" — the complaint you claim he has has nothing to do with salvaging rights.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2009.01.14 13:59:00 - [157] Originally by: XJennieX Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. That's fine. As long as mission runners can't hide in NPC corps either. TBH mission runners asking for salvage flagging are being very foolish. Who do you want ninjaing "your" salvage? (1) Fairly new players who have no better source of income (2) Highly skilled gankers who want nothing more than for you to be dumb enough to fire on them AND fairly new players who have no better source of income, but can still fit out a new T1 astrometrics frigate for the prices of a couple of melted caps if you happen to pop him. Prediction: If CCP introduce salvage flagging overnight, membership of TEARS will double within the week.
Rennion	Posted - 2009.01.14 14:32:00 - [158] Edited by: Rennion on 14/01/2009 14:32:24 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: XJennieX Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs could not hide behind NPC corp that he coud WARDEC THEM. That's fine. As long as mission runners can't hide in NPC corps either. TBH mission runners asking for salvage flagging are being very foolish. Who do you want ninjaing "your" salvage? (1) Fairly new players who have no better source of income (2) Highly skilled gankers who want nothing more than for you to be dumb enough to fire on them AND fairly new players who have no better source of income, but can still fit out a new T1 astrometrics frigate for the prices of a couple of melted caps if you happen to pop him. Prediction: If CCP introduce salvage flagging overnight, membership of TEARS will double within the week. Yeh the similarity to can flagging is pretty stark silly bears don't even know what they are asking for.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:27:00 - [159] Originally by: XJennieX do you have problems comprehensing what the op wrote? he only wishes that salvage thiefs And right there, with those two little words, all logic in the thread is destroyed. Those two little words. "Salvage thiefs", or, as I assume you meant, "salvage thieves". We'll go over this one more time, slowly, for the ones of you who never learned to read in first grade. THERE. IS. NO. SUCH. THING. AS. A. SALVAGE. THIEF. "Salvage thief" is an oxymoron. Like some of y'all, only with more oxy. There's no such thing as a salvage thief. "Thief" requires that salvage have been yours before the salvager got his grubby hands on it. Salvage, by definition, belongs to the first person who gets his grubby hands on it. That person, it turns out, was not you. It is not yours. It never was yours. It cannot have been stolen from you. There was no theft. This is not in doubt. This is not in dispute. No fewer than three different devs, including two GMs, have now weighed in on this issue. Yes, the rules of the game could change. They always can. In this case, I suspect that there will be snowballs in Hell first, but it could happen. If it does? Then, maybe, it will be possible for there to be a "salvage thief" in the game. But until then? Using the phrase demonstrates that you don't understand the game, or the rules as they are, or simple logic, or the concept of the oxymoron. It is beyond me how anybody can keep talking about "salvage thieves" in the very thread where CCP Prism wrote: Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Salvage is not considered your stuff until it enters your cargo hold. Simple concept. Do you understand? Or do we need to go over this yet again? We in the salvage community GET that you don't like this. We GET that you wish it were different. We GET that you want to play by different rules that give you more ISK for your mission-running efforts. You'd earn a great deal more respect for your advocacy if you could somehow manage to speak of the game that is (the game where there's no such thing as a salvage thief) when arguing for the game you'd like to play (where, in theory, there could be). The summary, for those of you who think "wall of text" whenever you encounter more than twenty words in a row: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SALVAGE THIEF. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Elena Morin'staal Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:30:00 - [160] Quote: snowballs in Hell first What about some snowballs in A Hel? Ok, smartassery aside, I pretty much second. To steal salvage, implies they have removed it from your cargo hold.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:34:00 - [161] Originally by: Marlenus "Salvage thief" is an oxymoron. Like some of y'all, only with more oxy. +2 Internets to you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for brightening my forum lurking today. ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2009.01.14 16:38:00 - [162] Originally by: Marlenus "Salvage thief" is an oxymoron. Like some of y'all, only with more oxy. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SALVAGE THIEF. #eve-online salutes you, sir MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:09:00 - [163] Tip your waiter, I'll be here ... well, until they turn the servers off. But seriously, glad I could amuse a few folks with my rant. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:31:00 - [164] Lets say you beat some guy up on the streets because he hit you first. His wallet falls out and a bum steals it. Point being the wallet was always there for the taking...yes...yes...
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2009.01.14 18:37:00 - [165] ok this might have alreadt been said but: GET YOUR ASS OUT OF A MISSION HUB AND ALSO SALVAGE BELONGS TO NO-ONE so with salvage having no official 'owner' it can not be stolen /ends thread
Iomar Uisdean Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:04:00 - [166] I do consider it to be MY salvage..... But only because I salvaged it first, during the mission as I complete the mission objectives (usually blow up a lot of stuff). In my experience it takes more or less equal time to clean up as I go, rather then complete the mission first, dock up and switch to a dedicated salvage/loot gathereer. Most of the ships I use for missioning can mount a salvager without gimping the mission platform. It's my salvage because I salvaged it. If someone were to salvage it before I did, it would be their salvage. They'd have to scan me down first, without me noticing and safespotting or docking or setting up a little suprise. Heck, scan me down, you're welcome to my salvage, you've earned it. You're also welcome to my loot, and the salvage and widgets from the wreck of my ship. Actually ..... if you're trying to scan me down, the salvage is the least of my concerns.
FarosWarrior Amarr Sonnema	Posted - 2009.01.14 20:51:00 - [167] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I do consider it to be MY salvage..... It's my salvage because I salvaged it. if you already salvaged how the hell can someone else salvage it as well?
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 21:50:00 - [168] i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:22:00 - [169] Originally by: ollobrains2 i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again Spamming your terrible idea over and over again like a 5 year old didn't work? Who'd have thought that?
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:27:00 - [170] Salvage stealing? Doesn't exist.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:46:00 - [171] Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 14/01/2009 22:47:12 Originally by: "Mintoko" Originally by: "Gypsio III" Salvaging a wreck is desecrating a war grave, and should be punishable by CONCORD. Nice twist... I like it. So in one breath, you want the ability to shoot at people taking your salvage, and in another you 'like the twist' that wrecks (and the loot contained therein) are 'war graves', and that 'desecrating' them is a CONCORD offence; ignoring the fact that CONCORD and the Empire Factions don't want the NPC pirates there, which is why they're sending you to kill them. They don't care for the wrecks, which is why they even afford you the right to shoot someone that takes loot from them. I will say this for the umpteenth time. When it comes to salvage, the owner of the vessel has 'first right' to any equipment or machinery that is on said vessel. A salvager is allowed to remove these things; HOWEVER the owner of the vessel is allowed to lay claim to these salvaged items in court - that is to say if they even get the salvager to go to court. Beyond this, agreements are made for the time-investment and resource-investment involved in retrieving the equipment/machinery, and the owner of the vessel has to compensate the salvager if they want the stuff back. It's no different from the owner spending the same money on time and resources to go salvage the wreckage(s) themselves. Any salvage that derives from dismantling the wreckage for scrap metal or other components, however, is purely first-come, first-served. Trit bars are not equipment or machinery, they are components used in the construction of the vessel hull. Armor plates, the same story. Shield Emmiter arrays, same story. Capacitor Consoles, same story. And Mintoko, I wasn't ignoring my own statement; fact of the matter is that those rats are not part of the objective, they just happen to have something in their ships locking down the gate. If you had to go down into 0.0 to try and remove a corp you have a contract against, but there happens to be some unaffiliated corp camping one of the gates you HAVE to go through with bubbles and the like, you have the choices of removing them, dying or trying to get out. They are, however, not included in your contract; they are simply there, or they were hired as guardians by the small corp you were contracted against - your employer isn't going to pay you for taking them out and you're risking resources to deal with them, if you do. Mission runners have it perfectly safe. How safe depends on what precautionary measures they will take when running their missions. I know for a fact that if you have one guardian/basilisk and a relevant battleship for them to transfer to, you have a tank that is quite literally unbreakable in pretty much all lvl4 missions, even if everything decides to shoot at you. You are also afforded the ability to better manage blobs, as you needn't kite; you can let everything come to you. You are also afforded extra cargo capacity for carrying your precious l00tz. You are afforded the ability to fit more DPS on the battleship, as the lowslots/mids otherwise used for tanking related mods are freed up for dps/tracking/painting/webbing ones instead. By the time you are running just these two accounts (and don't tell me not everyone can run dual accounts, that is a blatant lie - I can run dual accounts on my mom's crappy Sempron 2400+ at 1gb ram with a GeForce2 MX400 64mb and the onboard graphics, and that was entry level maybe some 8 years ago), your efficiency goes up such that you can possibly even afford to have a third account that you dedicate to salvaging/looting purposes. There are extra uses to having these second and third accounts, but I don't expect everyone to understand why you'd want them, and I'm not going to go through the trouble of listing the benefits - use your imagination. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.14 22:49:00 - [172] Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 14/01/2009 22:49:19 You make refernce to can flagging - prior to can flagging, bears were complaining that they didn't have any way to prevent the thieves from taking their stuff. Post can flagging, they're complaining anyway, because people are still taking their stuff, but they're unwilling to do anything about them. As has been mentioned before, a lot of the time, mission ninjas actually take loot along with salvage, because they could deal with being shot at and are making more isk in the process, one way or the other. Your proposal, on the other hand, could backlash against the younger players, as more of the larger corps running missions together or in the same system are avoided and mostly newer, alone players are targeted instead, because there is less risk involved. As it is, this is already the case a lot of the time when people encounter noobcorp mission runners, because they know that beyond logistic support, that guy is effectively alone. Originally by: "ollobrains2" i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again Your changes were, in fact, not realistic. By changing the wreck/container-in-space timer from 2 hours to 6 hours, you increase the amount of entities that the database has to track at any given time by more than 3 fold. Your posts were removed because you were spamming the same exact thing over and over again; the Features & Ideas discussion forum is the place to post ideas, and to wait for people to read/discuss them. [/wall-of-text attack] edit and here I thought typing these up in notepad would prevent me from making as many mistakes... -_- --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Exolun Imperium Technologies Sangre Azul	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:11:00 - [173] Edited by: Exolun on 14/01/2009 23:11:22 It's not stealing. It's bottom-feeding. I can't say that I like it, but as others have stated, there are certain measures you can take if you don't want it to happen. If I'm missioning in Dodixie, for example, I'll fly a dominix with 2x salvagers, and 2x tractors. Elsewise, if I'm not set up to salvage mid-mission and a salvager comes in, I start popping every wreck rather than let them have the salvage. It's a brutal tactic since nobody benefits, but they aren't going to stick around for long. For me, it hasn't been a problem for a long time though. I moved to a quieter system where I can complete missions fast with a high DPS ship, then come in with a salvaging ship and deal with it all quickly. I agree that if you're the type of missioner that earns a tidy sum from salvaging his missions, it's very annoying and financially damaging. But there are many workarounds, and it adds an additional dimension to the game for those who want to play that way.
Squasar Caldari Kiith Paktu	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:18:00 - [174] Originally by: Exolun Edited by: Exolun on 14/01/2009 23:11:22 It's not stealing. It's bottom-feeding. Well I'll bottom feed any day. I enjoy my easy 30-50 mil/hr from afk missioners with little to no effort besides waiting for a scan to finish and Warp to 0
URUS FORGE Caldari THE TRUST INCORPORATED	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:30:00 - [175] I have no problem with their career choice.. same with pirates.. its just a choice of how to play. What doesn't make any sense. Is that there is no aggression when they salvage. The way the rule is now.. they can take broken bits without agro, but if they take something that work there is? I know this was done to achieve some sort of balance.. but it just doesnt make sense. It's like going hunting shooting a deer.. and having someone take all the tenderloins off it leaving you the rest.. and you just have to sit there and watch em do it.. or the game warden will blow up your truck. Let the salvager choose if they wish to gain aggression.. and give the originator of the kill time to salvage it. You accomplish both goals.. and create some opportunities to kick some a$$!
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.14 23:43:00 - [176] Originally by: FarosWarrior Originally by: Iomar Uisdean I do consider it to be MY salvage..... It's my salvage because I salvaged it. if you already salvaged how the hell can someone else salvage it as well? That's the whole point — it's not your salvage until you salvage it. Since you get it when you salvage it, no-one can steal it from you (short of blowing up your ship and looting the remains). As long as it's just a wreck it's not "your salvage" and any salvage extracted from that wreck by someone else isn't yours, by very definition, so they didn't steal it from you.
Vincent Death Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:37:00 - [177] Originally by: Exolun Edited by: Exolun on 14/01/2009 23:11:22 It's not stealing. It's bottom-feeding. The day that CCP remove bottom-feeding from EvE will be a very sad day imho. I'll play a bugle solo and wear a black armband and maybe even cry bloody tears of rage.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.15 01:47:00 - [178] Tippia, it's also amusing to note that the wrecks 'of yours' that are being 'stolen' might not even have any valuable salvage, let alone loot, in them to begin with. Heck, the wreck could have no salvage and just a pack of cap boosters, a worthless tag and some ammo - the 'owner' of the wreck would still throw a hissy fit if someone had to 'take' the wreck and all the loot in it...
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:12:00 - [179] This is funny because any "salvage is theft" posts is akin saying a dev doesn't know about their own game.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2009.01.15 02:17:00 - [180] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I'm really speaking to the issue of no recourse. If you steal a can I have immediate recourse. ... With salvage there is NO recourse at all. If I am mining in highsec and you come along and start mining "my" asteroid, I have NO RECOURSE. I am sick of this unfair abuse of game mechanics, frankly. I don't have a problem with the fact that you can mine my asteroid, but I refuse to accept that there is no recourse. I demand that from now on, mining in highsec should aggro you to all other pilots in the system who have at least one mining laser or mining drone fitted. .............
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.15 09:17:00 - [181] Edited by: Mintoko on 15/01/2009 09:23:39 Edited by: Mintoko on 15/01/2009 09:19:15 Originally by: Johli This is funny because any "salvage is theft" posts is akin saying a dev doesn't know about their own game. That's assuming that we're saying that the game mechanics are not as intended. That's not what we're saying. We don't care how the server code looks at it, we're not saying the devs are dumb. What we are saying is that it, in our opinion, should be changed. In RL, there are laws regarding the salvage of sea wrecks. If you take something from a wreck belonging to someone else, you can get in trouble for it. Why can we not have that in the game? Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I'm really speaking to the issue of no recourse. If you steal a can I have immediate recourse. ... With salvage there is NO recourse at all. If I am mining in highsec and you come along and start mining "my" asteroid, I have NO RECOURSE. I am sick of this unfair abuse of game mechanics, frankly. I don't have a problem with the fact that you can mine my asteroid, but I refuse to accept that there is no recourse. I demand that from now on, mining in highsec should aggro you to all other pilots in the system who have at least one mining laser or mining drone fitted. A couple others thought they we're making some prophetic statement by saying the same thing...maybe you didn't read that far. It's not the same. If the contents of a destroyed ship are labeled as belonging to me, so should the wreck itself. Originally by: ollobrains2 i had some realistic suggestion changes earlier seems ccp didnt like em tho. So back to the same carebear protectionist arguments again No, they removed them because you posted the same message more than half a dozen times. So yeah....big conspiracy there.
Trind2222 Amarr The Red Ring	Posted - 2009.01.15 09:27:00 - [182] My high sloth 2 salvagers 2 tractor beams. velocy on my ship whit ab 567 M/S on lv 4. ship Isthar. ____________ Wrangler comes back out wearing his wizard hat and robe Wrangler: Hail and well met from Blizzard, how might I assist you?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.15 10:07:00 - [183] Originally by: Mintoko In RL, there are laws regarding the salvage of sea wrecks. If you take something from a wreck belonging to someone else, you can get in trouble for it. Why can we not have that in the game? The thing is, in RL, what's in the wreck doesn't belong to the person who blew the ship up — it belongs to whoever owned the ship. If you want to make EVE like RL, you should be arguing that not even the loot belongs to you and that taking stuff from NPC wrecks should give you aggression towards the NPC corp/faction, not to the person who created the wreck. After all, when you blow som unsuspecting Angel battleship up, the cargo and salvage belong to the Angels, not you. If you take stuff from the wreck (be it loot or salvage), you're a thief, stealing from the Angels. If someoen else comes and nicks the stuff, he's not stealing from you — he's also stealing from the Angels and should get aggression towards them, not towards you. So yes, let's make EVE more like RL and give ninja salvagers even more rights in relationship to the wrecks: by any reasonable standard, they should have full looting and tractoring rights, but should incur NPC aggression for interacting with the wreck. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.15 10:57:00 - [184] Originally by: "Mintoko" In RL, there are laws regarding the salvage of sea wrecks. If you take something from a wreck belonging to someone else, you can get in trouble for it. Why can we not have that in the game? Marine Salvage Flotsam and Jetsam The kind of wreckages you see in EVE are, in essence, derelicts. If you wish to change this, then it would have to be changed such that they belong to the original owner of the vessel; ie, if you blow up an NPC faction's ships, the wreckages belong to that faction, not you or the 'salvage thief'. But then, you wouldn't like that, because that'd mean no flag for you. I think I will have said this over 10 times thus far: Salvage, or the hull of a ship, in EVE, belongs to noone, because they are simply floating husks. The loot, on the other hand, belongs to the person that destroyed the ship (and only because there was such a high amount of complaints received about ore theft from jetcan miners that flagging had to be introduced), or in the case of missions belongs to the mission owner. If it would not result in such an insane clutter, database nightmare and general performance hog, (some) loot would float off from destroyed ships the way it does in Freelancer and X3: Reunion, and would be fair game for whoever comes along to take it. I have seen various ideas for how to 'fix' this 'issue' before. Let me list some of them, and the problems they would cause: 1. Wrecks, when created, do not belong to anyone, and must be 'flagged' by someone for them to own it. If anyone not in the flagging player's corporation or gang takes from the wreck or salvages it, they get flagged to that player and their corp. --- Salvage thief comes into your mission and instaflags any wrecks he can as belonging to him - this gives him full salvaging and looting rights on whatever wrecks he manages to tag. Causes especially grave issues where a wreckage may contain a mission objective. 2. Wrecks don't belong to anyone and are purely first come, first served. This includes loot --- We get back to the original 'issue' of jetcan miners, where people are now especially peeved that they have no chance whatsoever to lay claim to salvage or loot, as thieves can take at will 3. Wrecks give a flag if salvaged by anyone that doesn't belong to the corp or gang of the player that created them. --- Not that much of an issue except if you take into consideration the shift that would occur; Larger corporations or corporations that have multiple people in the mission or in system will be avoided, and smaller corporations, younger players or the like will be targeted instead, creating an unbalanced environment where 'younger players' or 'weaker players' are punished more than 'older players' or 'bigger corps'. This already exists as a problem for individuals or smaller corps in the form of loot theft, anyway. 4. Shift all lvl4 missions to low-sec; mission thieves/salvage thieves don't want to salvage lvl3 or lower missions since it's not worth their time. It lets mission runners in low-sec deal with the thieves/salvagers immediately, before they even get to steal anything --- cough yeah, uh-huh. Find mission runner in low-sec, take in PVP ship(s), eliminate mission runner and loot/salvage all wrecks, including their ship's. I personally think that the current system has the best 'balance' of the many possible choices. It is not impossible for a player to loot/salvage their mission; it simply requires that they pair up with someone else to help them. Salvagers are scavengers - they're like flies - they're going to be around no matter what you do, and swatting one will only bring two more. The best thing you can do is to move somewhere without any flies. Failing that, you make a point of removing anything they want, and they'll simply stop coming around. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:39:00 - [185] Originally by: Mintoko A couple others have already said that...maybe you didn't read that far. It's not the same. If the contents of a destroyed ship are labeled as belonging to me, so should the wreck itself. Give it a rest. You're just making up arguments now. First of all destroyed ships do not always have loot contents in the wreck. Secondly the only reason they are in a wreck but not in a can next to the wreck is because it's easier on everyone to have 1 thing appear rather than 2. Thirdly, so when you dock in a station (which is a container with functions as far as I care) you own the station? Just give it a rest already. We all understand you want to make more ISK per hour. We all want to make more ISK per hour. The difference between you and me is that I go out of my way to invent new ways to make more ISK per hour where as you invent ways CCP can help you make more ISK per hour. You have a Dev here telling you that things are working as intended. Hell, you have at least 10 other threads on this matter yet CCP remains adamant along with most of the community which does not stand to gain millions from the change. This means the neutral parties disagree with you along with the powers that be.. the only support you have is from biased parties. You must be so proud of your crusade.
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn	Posted - 2009.01.15 11:59:00 - [186] 1) introduce a special new "mission objective" container. It's like a Jettison Container, but with the HP of a Giant Secure Container. This means, you can't shoot it with 1 pop, but you can race to it and steal from. 2) Move all mission objectives that still spawn inside a wreck into such a container 3) Move all mission objectives that currently spawn in a Jetcan into such a container 4) Remove the ownership of wrecks completely. For salvage and loot. Tada, no more "why is the loot yours but the salvage not" whines.
Nva Ris	Posted - 2009.01.15 12:07:00 - [187] Originally by: Arous Drephius Originally by: CCP Prism X it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Devpwnt. this ^^
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.01.15 13:04:00 - [188] Originally by: Nva Ris Originally by: Arous Drephius Originally by: CCP Prism X it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Devpwnt. this ^^ If this doesn't quiet the salvage whiners, nothing will.
Fail Cat Sad Panda Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.15 14:12:00 - [189] Originally by: Hugo Splat Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. And here I was thinking 'Risk vs Reward' was a big part of the CCP plan also. Can you point out to me where the risk is please? I see the reward, I am just having trouble finding the risk. High sec mission runner complaining about risk vs reward makes me laugh. Bear tears are the best If you want ninja salvagers to have risk, run missions in low sec and just pop them, but then ofc by doing that you are no longer 100% safe... Im seeing the reward for high sec missioning but not the risk...
Sieessenschwanz	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:16:00 - [190] Originally by: DHG ransom back the mission objective for a nice amount of isk. You can get banned for that. Mission invasion and ninja salvaging is permitted. Futzing with the mission objective is a definite no no.
Sieessenschwanz	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:18:00 - [191] Originally by: Solomon Weyland Just blow up any wrecks they go for, all of them if necessary. Its the simple solution. You will still get the money from bounties and the mission reward itself. All they will get is wasted time and probes. This only encourages those who do it for the grief caused rather than the ISK gained.
Naga Elohim Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.01.15 15:21:00 - [192] Stealing salvage is ok when people do missions and abandon the wrecks.... Stealing salvage is also ok when you fail to salvage while you do the mission.... There is alot of reasons why stealing salvage is ok..... ...but it gets funny when I read the forums and see people so mad over something they can prevent with a tractor beam and salvage module. To the OP, just salvage your crap while you run the mission. Makes sense yes?
Rufus MacMaranth Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.01.15 16:16:00 - [193] Originally by: Napro This is really all I can do now. CCP (at the behest of the whiners) Nerfed every single ship I'm capable of flying. My Missile skills are meaningless in PvP. I have no drone skills to solo Level 4s. Thank all the nerfs for making Ninjasalvaging my only viable occupation You are doing it wrong. I used to fly Gallente in missions but got fed up with either sniping and the pain that causes for looting/salvage or losing/recalling drones and the time all that takes. I now fly a Drake and L4s are trivial. I get nicer wreck patterns, have a nice no effort tank and good rat specific DPS. No faction fits, pure T2. It is easy and cheap. Cheers, Ruf.
General Ric EXPLORATIS	Posted - 2009.01.15 17:23:00 - [194] I don't think its unreasonable for someone who kills a ship to want to be able to shoot another player who then salvages that wreck. Salvaging can still be a viable profession, just it won't be zero risk if you do it while the mission runner is still in the area. Since it has been tossed around in this thread as explanation for the current system, even real world maritime law for salvaging awards a certain percentage of the salvage retrieved, often 50% or more, to the owner of the wreck - which in EVE's case is the player who destroyed the ship. Moving on, one of the most important aspects of game design in EVE is about risk vs. reward. Currently salvagers - especially on multi level missions like the Extravaganzas - have near zero risk with very little actual ISK or SP investment due to the low cost and short training time required to fly a good salvaging destroyer. To maintain this risk vs. reward balance, mission runners need to have an option for recourse if someone is salvaging their mission wrecks to increase the risk for salvagers. Now if this leads to more PvP and carebears getting popped when they pick a fight with someone stronger than them, I don't see how non-carebears can complain. The only players who really win with the current system are the jackasses who like to **** off other players fully knowing they can't do anything about it. These players are below carebears in my opinion, because they are too cowardly to engage in PvP, but they also want to ruin other players game experience as much as possible. The art of "ninja-salvage" is one of the few hostile actions you can take in high sec without the other player having any retaliation options, and for that reason it needs to be fixed.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:47:00 - [195] Originally by: Sieessenschwanz Originally by: DHG ransom back the mission objective for a nice amount of isk. You can get banned for that. Mission invasion and ninja salvaging is permitted. Futzing with the mission objective is a definite no no. Actually IIRC, ransoming the mission item is fine, it's just taking it and not offering any chance to get it back that is frowned upon.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:50:00 - [196] Originally by: Johli Originally by: Nva Ris Originally by: Arous Drephius Devpwnt. this ^^ If this doesn't quiet the salvage whiners, nothing will. That would be the way to bet! ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:52:00 - [197] i find it weird how the loot is your but the salvage isn't.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.15 19:54:00 - [198] Originally by: Lord Zoran i find it weird how the loot is your but the salvage isn't. when you take loot, you actually have something in your hangar, while salvaging is chance based. ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:03:00 - [199] Originally by: Lord Zoran i find it weird how the loot is your but the salvage isn't. Because the salvage requires skill training, modules and possibly some rigs to retrieve. The loot does not. If you can't be arsed with training the skills and fitting the module, you don't deserve to get salvage.
Noriko Rei	Posted - 2009.01.15 20:52:00 - [200] There is one way you could possibly turn 'em red, if you're willing to put some effort into it. A ninja salvager is just trying to make money. When one of them arrives on the scene and salvages a couple wrecks, simply offer to let them have the loot, too. Tell your pet ninja that you're just grinding missions for LP, bounties, and lulz. If you get him in the fleet, make a quick hop to a neighboring system; all the wrecks will turn yellow. If your pet ninja finds this suspicious, simply inform him that you had to go next door and refit your tank for the next mission. Encourage him to keep picking things up. Come back to the area and relieve him of his ship. Collect whatever loot drops from his cargo hold. It was all "yours" anyway.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.15 21:10:00 - [201] Oh hi, guys! What's going on in this thread? (Miss me?)
General Ric EXPLORATIS	Posted - 2009.01.15 21:34:00 - [202] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja I will say this for the umpteenth time. When it comes to salvage, the owner of the vessel has 'first right' to any equipment or machinery that is on said vessel. A salvager is allowed to remove these things; HOWEVER the owner of the vessel is allowed to lay claim to these salvaged items in court - that is to say if they even get the salvager to go to court. Beyond this, agreements are made for the time-investment and resource-investment involved in retrieving the equipment/machinery, and the owner of the vessel has to compensate the salvager if they want the stuff back. It's no different from the owner spending the same money on time and resources to go salvage the wreckage(s) themselves. Yes. The equivalent to the courts in EVE should be "Salvage my wreck on my terms or I'll shoot at you", not "LOL I'm protected by CONCORD while salvaging your wrecks, tough cookies". Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Any salvage that derives from dismantling the wreckage for scrap metal or other components, however, is purely first-come, first-served. Trit bars are not equipment or machinery, they are components used in the construction of the vessel hull. Armor plates, the same story. Shield Emmiter arrays, same story. Capacitor Consoles, same story. Trit bars and scrap metal, I will give you that. But armor plates, shield emitters, capacitor consoles... if that isn't equipment or machinery what is? Just because it is built into your ship by the manufacturer doesn't automatically make it scrap. Yes it might be slightly or even severely damaged, but clearly it is still useful to the "owner" in some capacity.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:08:00 - [203] Originally by: General Ric Yes it might be slightly or even severely damaged, but clearly it is still useful to the "owner" in some capacity. The "Owner" is whoever gets to it first, and believe me, it's very useful!
Adaris Gallente E X I U S	Posted - 2009.01.15 22:19:00 - [204] Originally by: Akita T "Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?" Because it's not "EVE : Chronicles of Riddick - 'You keep what you kill' "... haha. indeed.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.16 00:56:00 - [205] General Ric, you seem to forget that even in the real world, you don't have a "Give me a percentage of my salvage back or I'll shoot you" style of agreement - you either get the guy to court or he gets away with your salvage, period. If you shoot the guy, you become the criminal; he is not STEALING, because he is going through the effort to retrieve stuff from the wreckage. It should also be noted that the merit salvage system most specifically applies to ships that are in peril not ships that have already sunk. Wreckages in the real world belong to the individual or company/organization that owns the vessel. If pirates come and blow up the vessel, it does not magically belong to them, it still belongs to the original owner of the vessel. Unfortunately, EVE has no 'in peril' situation for ships - they're either functioning or destroyed. Also unfortunately, EVE has no system where NPC wrecks belong to their original NPC faction, and there is no system that gradually builds up aggro to said NPC faction if someone takes loot or the salvage from the wrecks. Technically, salvage and loot on NPC wrecks shouldn't belong to anyone but the NPC corporation, but as with the age old jetcan mining issue, because it was considered 'abandoned' by default, there were no aggro flags. What happened? CCP invented the can-theft aggro flag, to satisfy the whining miners/mission runners. What happened? These people not only kept whining because they were STILL being stolen from, but started whining even more because they were being stolen from MORE FREQUENTLY, because there was the chance for pirates that their intended prey would open fire. What also happened? Younger players, smaller corps and smaller groups of players became more likely targets than larger corps etc, because they are easier pickings. Do you see the issue here? Ninja salvagers are on their own; at best, they can have a few logistics ships to come and keep them alive should someone shoot at them, but they cannot add more DPS, whereas the mission runner and his entire corporation are afforded the ability to shoot at this guy and any remote supporters at will. Hell, they're even allowed to take these people on one-by-one. So you see, mission runners and miners have in essence only hurt themselves in the past few years, and continue to hurt themselves blindly. Making salvage flag to the mission runner will simply have more individuals and smaller corps being picked on, and let the fat cats get more isk as their missions magically stop being salvaged. This game's picture is of a far higher resolution than the 1x1 pixels that represent the whining individual carebear that doesn't want to deal with corp politics that wants everything handed to him on a silver platter. Did you ever consider using the Orca in your missions? 75km range, 2km/s tractoring speed - I'd LOVE to see a cruiser sized ship (generally required to survive long enough if aggro messes up so that you're able to get out) do 2km/s... It also has the cargo capacity to scoop ALL the loot - not to mention if you have a dedicated salvager on hand you can easily have a 55% chance across 8 salvagers with a 9.5s salvager cycle time (the implant is cheap enough). "The ninja will simply move to next to the orca" And what if you don't tractor those wrecks that are far away? He'd have to go out to them if he really wants them. He can only go for one at a time, so while he's busy with those on one side of your orca, you simply tractor the other side's wrecks; unless he's in an inty, he's not going to AB the 2km/s+ he needs to get to your orca before the wrecks, if he was further away from your orca than they were when you began tractoring. You see, I can think of all these wonderful methods to use to prevent myself from getting jacked off by a salvage ninja; why can't you? Do you 'not want to deal with childish corp politics' or what?
Chruker	Posted - 2009.01.16 13:54:00 - [206] Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense ----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi - Speedup IGB table rendering
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:23:00 - [207] Originally by: Chruker Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense If you read the CCP response... Originally by: CCP Prism X If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. ...you would already know the answer to your question.
Fail Cat Sad Panda Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 14:25:00 - [208] Beat me to it
St3v3sancho The Funkalistic	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:30:00 - [209] Eve is meant to be and reputed to be a tough game to live in. Salvage it as you go along. Set him and his corp to a negative standing and blow them up in low sec systems. Salvage other peoples missions to increase your revenue and get revenge. So what if that person never diod anything to you. It's a GAME and the person in the mission should also appreciate that it's a game and how you act in it, is not representative of how you act in real life. I salvage other peoples missions every single day pretty much and make decent money out of it. Do other people do it to me? Yes. Do I mind it? No. Sorry boys and girls but it's a survival of the fittest kind of game. Just mop up your tears and get some revenge for yourself. Use the tools at your disposal to deal with it rather than crying out of game. Just my take on things.
St3v3sancho The Funkalistic	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:33:00 - [210] All this talk of people going to court and who owns what items is such garbage. It's a GAME. lol.
MrJordanIOI Minmatar The Lantern Mining Corporation	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:47:00 - [211] Ok - if anyone feels he has lost some salvage or someone stole it from him or he wants to get any. Here is A deal; Drop me an Eve-mail. Why ? Because next time I do a level 3 or higher mission I ll invite you to join me and get the salvage. If you then hand me half of what you salvaged I will gladly invite you again, next time around - if not - well -- I wont. End of story - Eve is a hostile game. That is why being nice is even easier ;) Cheers, IOI http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=567889&page=1#8..I just checked the subscription numbers,
Kamikazi ONE PROGENITOR CORPORATION	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:14:00 - [212] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. In that case, as it's a mini-profession can we have probes that we can use to search for abandoned missions sites with wrecks floating in them ? Or a way to allow mission runners to broadcast the locations of wrecks in a local system that anyone can have if they get there first ?
Piratejoe Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:34:00 - [213] Theirs only 2 solutions here (I see it as a loophole in EVE that people can be jerks and not be killable but oh well) A. When a Salvage thief shows up, Destroy all your wrecks (Just be careful doing this) Give them no reason too hang around. B. Suck it up and Train up for a Maurader and Salvage/Loot as you go.
Decarus Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:40:00 - [214] Edited by: Decarus on 16/01/2009 16:42:29 Edited by: Decarus on 16/01/2009 16:42:19 Originally by: Piratejoe Theirs only 2 solutions here (I see it as a loophole in EVE that people can be jerks and not be killable but oh well) A. When a Salvage thief shows up, Destroy all your wrecks (Just be careful doing this) Give them no reason too hang around. B. Suck it up and Train up for a Maurader and Salvage/Loot as you go. Wow, I finally get it! You guys simply have no problem solving skills and the issue seems insurmountable to you! C. Don't do missions in hubs D. Don't train for a Marauder but fit a salv on your ship and salvage as you go. E. Do missions in low sec secured by your corporation and shoot the damn salvagers. E2. This requires leaving your noob corp of course. F. Stop doing missions since they are obviously beneath your profit margin and start trading/hauling. G. Start salvaging other peoples missions yourself.. the fuzz here would indicate it's the majority of your L4 running income. Realize what Prism just said and actually work for your bonus profits. I guess to some whining and moaning could be considered work but apparently CCP doesn't agree with that PoV.
Rex Lashar Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:44:00 - [215] The answer to the OP is simple. It's not stealing if it's not yours. At most the system lets you two fight about it. Don't presume that killing an NPC gives you some kind of entitlement.
Piratejoe Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:02:00 - [216] Originally by: Decarus Edited by: Decarus on 16/01/2009 16:42:29 Edited by: Decarus on 16/01/2009 16:42:19 Originally by: Piratejoe Theirs only 2 solutions here (I see it as a loophole in EVE that people can be jerks and not be killable but oh well) A. When a Salvage thief shows up, Destroy all your wrecks (Just be careful doing this) Give them no reason too hang around. B. Suck it up and Train up for a Maurader and Salvage/Loot as you go. Wow, I finally get it! You guys simply have no problem solving skills and the issue seems insurmountable to you! C. Don't do missions in hubs D. Don't train for a Marauder but fit a salv on your ship and salvage as you go. E. Do missions in low sec secured by your corporation and shoot the damn salvagers. E2. This requires leaving your noob corp of course. F. Stop doing missions since they are obviously beneath your profit margin and start trading/hauling. G. Start salvaging other peoples missions yourself.. the fuzz here would indicate it's the majority of your L4 running income. Realize what Prism just said and actually work for your bonus profits. I guess to some whining and moaning could be considered work but apparently CCP doesn't agree with that PoV. C. Your right, I try too avoid the main mission running sytems since thats just asking too be griefed. D. Also true, I just figured this was standard practice? If your running lvl 4's and not doing this... E. Blah, If Im going too do lowsec missions I'd rather personally do complex's F. I do missions from time too time because I actually find them fun, I personally cant stand mining, hauling or all that stuff. I'd rather watch paint dry. G. No. Eve may be just a game but I will not lower myself too being a lowlife, be it in real life or with silly spaceships. (Personally just taking a break from 0.0 since I came back too eve after a small break.)
Belmarduk Amarr M.A.R.S. Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:19:00 - [217] Originally by: Chruker Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense This I STILL feel that the salvage from MY Mission belongs to me - ever since salvage was introduced.Period Ninja-Salvagers are hiding behind the aggression system.Period Make it so that EVERYTHING is freely lootable or that EVERYTHING is not.Period If someone takes my salvage in highsec I want to be able to kill him.Period Mainchar:
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.16 17:50:00 - [218] Edited by: Tippia on 16/01/2009 17:51:42 Originally by: Belmarduk I STILL feel that the salvage from MY Mission belongs to me - ever since salvage was introduced.Period You can feel it all you like — you're still wrong. Also: why? If salvage works the same way as loot, then why even make a difference between the two? edit: Oh, and for the record, if someone takes your salvage, you can kill him. Of course, it's not your salvage until you've extracted it from a wreck, so you'll have to jettison it first and he needs to take the bait, but once he has taken your salvage, fire away! ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:03:00 - [219] Originally by: Belmarduk I STILL feel that the salvage from MY Mission belongs to me - ever since salvage was introduced. Period. Too bad. If you read between the lines of what CCP said, it wasn't made for Mission Runners, exclusively. It was, in fact made for Ninja Salvagers. Originally by: Belmarduk Ninja-Salvagers are hiding behind the aggression system. Period. I'm not, and I built a Corporation and Alliance to prove it. Perhaps you're talking about NPC Ninja Salvagers, hmm? Originally by: Belmarduk Make it so that EVERYTHING is freely lootable or that EVERYTHING is not. Period. It used to be, and then people whined about people stealing their stuff. Way back when, jetcans didn't give aggro! If you dumped it in space and somebody took it, tough nuts for you. If you're asking for a return to this mechanic, hell, I'm all for it. Originally by: Belmarduk If someone takes my salvage in highsec I want to be able to kill him. Period. That's what losec is for, son. Your arguments are not well thought out, and quite frankly, your post has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Suck it up, princess. This is EvE, and the salvage belongs to whoever is fastest. (...and that's usually me.) Period.
Belmarduk Amarr M.A.R.S. Enterprises	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:40:00 - [220] Edited by: Belmarduk on 16/01/2009 18:41:00 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Belmarduk stuff Did you read my post or couldnt you stop your sweaty little fingers from quickly replying? hmm ? Again: It is as it is,but I still feel that when salvage was introduced it was only half-thought out. Its just not logical that jetcans cause aggression but wrecks DONT.Whatever I dont care - Just stating a fact. Princess: Are you..nevermind Son: Unless you are retiring in a couple of years I doubt it would physicly be possible age-wise
Violet Serena	Posted - 2009.01.16 21:26:00 - [221] Originally by: Rex Lashar The answer to the OP is simple. It's not stealing if it's not yours. At most the system lets you two fight about it. Don't presume that killing an NPC gives you some kind of entitlement. In "the real world", someone who stole your stuff would either be a quick target of the police, your gun, or both. In safe space, I don't think Concord zaps you for opening someone else's NPC wreck, but if you then attack them, watch out. So it's not "fair", so to speak, and the tools to bring the problem under control do not take it into account, but it's not really busted, either, for the same reason. So to put in RP-speak, Concord doesn't care about who loots what, but they care about shots being fired. Don't like it? Vote for a different faction leadership next time...if your faction permits votes. :) One "solution" would be that your ship files an auto-claim on any wreck your fleet/gang/corp/alliance/whatever is attacking, and only the appropriate members can loot it, or you (the looter) go hostile and can be attacked at the other guy's whim, without Concord repercussions, but you cannot attack without immediate repercussions from Concord. And in 0.0, you're on your own, of course!
Sagacious Z Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:18:00 - [222] In real life, somebody goes to a restaurant to eat, then after eating the bulk of the good stuff, the scraps get thrown in the garbage along with all the other restaurant guests' food scraps, and the whole lot of it ends up in the dumpster outside where homeless people come at night and pick through the food scraps to salvage what they can. In EVE, a player goes into space to pew pew, then after looting the bulk of the good stuff, the metal scraps and contaminated logic boards etc. get all thrown in the garbage along with all the other wrecks' scraps, and the whole lot of it all gets thrown in the dumpster some call the vacuum of space, where homers from your local ninja corps show up after you leave to rummage through and salvage the metal scraps and such. Isn't it interesting how EVE imitates real life? You don't really want to shoot a homeless person trying to get food for the kids, do you? Homeless people pick through food others throw away. You didn't want it, so the homeless took it. In EVE, you didn't stick around to salvage your wrecks and fit your ship with a salvager, so ninjas came to claim it. In EVE, if you want your scraps, take a couple guns off your high slot and fit some salvagers and tractor beams on instead so you can salvage immediately after your kill. You may be less effective of a space warrior that away, but at least you can get your scraps you want so dearly (and make the homeless go hungry). The choice is yours. PS: The wreck and salvage ownership rules that CCP has are perfect. They make total sense and offer game play decisions to be made. Is salvaging more valuable for my time, or is leaving my ship fitted with all weapons and running off to do more ratting or my next mission or kill my next PvP victim more valuable as a time/ISK ratio? You make the call.
Taldarin Gallente Black Harvest Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:42:00 - [223] heya
General Ric EXPLORATIS	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:56:00 - [224] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Do you see the issue here? Ninja salvagers are on their own; at best, they can have a few logistics ships to come and keep them alive should someone shoot at them, but they cannot add more DPS, whereas the mission runner and his entire corporation are afforded the ability to shoot at this guy and any remote supporters at will. Hell, they're even allowed to take these people on one-by-one. You completely lost me here, if it were possible to shoot ninja salvagers (especially those in NPC corps) this thread wouldn't exist. Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja So you see, mission runners and miners have in essence only hurt themselves in the past few years, and continue to hurt themselves blindly. Making salvage flag to the mission runner will simply have more individuals and smaller corps being picked on, and let the fat cats get more isk as their missions magically stop being salvaged. Great, sign me up! This is the way the game should be, whoever has the bigger stick wins. If the mission runner chooses to shoot at the salvager, its at his own peril, but at least he has the choice. I think you are also missing the point that if the salvagers really wanted mission runners to shoot at them, they would just loot the cans too. The ones that don't are clearly cowards. I know I have had some players loot my wrecks completely while I was running L4s, and they paid for it when I came back in a PvP ship and popped them before they even knew what happened. Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Did you ever consider using the Orca in your missions? 75km range, 2km/s tractoring speed - I'd LOVE to see a cruiser sized ship (generally required to survive long enough if aggro messes up so that you're able to get out) do 2km/s... It also has the cargo capacity to scoop ALL the loot - not to mention if you have a dedicated salvager on hand you can easily have a 55% chance across 8 salvagers with a 9.5s salvager cycle time (the implant is cheap enough). "The ninja will simply move to next to the orca" And what if you don't tractor those wrecks that are far away? He'd have to go out to them if he really wants them. He can only go for one at a time, so while he's busy with those on one side of your orca, you simply tractor the other side's wrecks; unless he's in an inty, he's not going to AB the 2km/s+ he needs to get to your orca before the wrecks, if he was further away from your orca than they were when you began tractoring. You see, I can think of all these wonderful methods to use to prevent myself from getting jacked off by a salvage ninja; why can't you? You can't be serious... This is possibly one of the most ******ed suggestions I have ever seen to deal with ninja salvagers. Who in their right mind is going to pay for an alt account to train for and buy an Orca to accompany them on L4 missions? On the minimal return you get from that investment, you would be much better off just using the subscription money to buy GTCs and sell them for ISK and buy the salvage you lost on the market. Now I would happily go do my L4 missions in low sec if it were actually profitable to do so, but as it is I usually only see ninja salvagers once every one or two weeks. This really isn't enough to justify the chance that I'm going to get caught in a gate camp, or scanned down by a gang of pirates. I would also lose a lot of my mission running efficiency after downgrading my faction fittings to T2, so unless everyone is forced into low sec for L4s, I'm not going to purposefully downgrade my income.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.17 03:59:00 - [225] 'it doesn't make sense that cans have an aggro flag but salvage doesn't' Actually, it doesn't make sense that jettison containers have an aggro flag at all. Let me give you a brief history lesson regarding can flags. Back in the days of old, people mined. They did happily so, frolicking among the asteroid belts of New Eden in their frigates and cruisers, with not a care in the world as they listened to the soothing drone of their mining lasers, watching the numbers rise in their cargo holds. Soon, bonuses to mining yield came along, increasing how quickly these numbers would grow; however, their ships' cargo holds had not the space to accommodate this kind of influx! A bright young lad then thought "hey, why don't I just collect it all in an assembled jettison container next to my ship? That way myself or a friend can come and fetch it later!". And he did so. However, it was not long before these vast expanses of collected ores were discovered by prospecting miners. Reading the little label underneath the 'Made In China' sticker on these jettison containers, one explorer discovered that the contents within were considered discarded, by the powers that be! What a delightful discovery! Mounds upon mounds of collected ore, with none to claim it as their own in sight! So our little explorer would find the nearest station selling an industrial ship, so as to be able to haul these collected riches to safety. Upon returning to the asteroid belt, however, he would be greeted by a ship akin to his own, bearing down on his bounty! "Oi! That's mine!" we'd hear our little explorer yell at this trespasser. "Rubbish - I mined this, it's mine. Sod off." would be his response. Being the faster of the two and having a nearer bearing, our little explorer would still win the race, managing to take of this precious bounty his fill. This would be met by this supposed miner with much anguish, as he feels he was wronged in the theft of that which he had laid claim to; abandoned materials. And so, this miner became part of a greater community forum, dedicated to the opposition of these cruel and unforgiving circumstances they believed placed upon them by the powers that be. He would soon find he was not alone in his grieving, as there were those assigned missions by the Great Empire Factions and their Agents, who had suffered a fate not dissimilar in execution. And so, after much tumult, the powers that be gave in, granting upon these miners and missioners a right to recourse; use of violence in order to defend that which they believed was theirs. For a time, all was once again well in the world. Our happy little miners once again frolicked in the belts, secure in the knowledge that they were safe from trespass, that they would no longer have to suffer the deeds of the greedy. However, a while would pass, and they would find this to be not quite so. Younger members of the greater mining community found themselves the targets of a new breed of aggravation; chaotic dogs of an unspoken society referring to themselves as 'can flippers'. Their ore would be stolen without hesitation, removed to a container of this can flipper's own design, newly laid claim to! By the rights bestowed upon these miners by the powers that be, they would open fire, hoping to reclaim what they believed rightfully theirs. Battles would ensue and ships would be lost. It would be found after many a brief display of brilliant lights that these dogs would often emerge victorious, relishing in their spoils. And so, a new community was established; the grieved widows of mining vessels long lost were dissatisfied with this new occurrence. They demanded action, they demanded recourse! However, the powers that be were not as forgiving this time...
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:19:00 - [226] ...they did not listen. They found no reason to bestow upon these miners any protection born of their resources, for they had given the right to violent recourse to these afflicted souls. And so it would be that these chaotic dogs would goad the miners into forming corporations, knowing that their prey was both unwilling and abated to doing so. They could see no reason to share their profits with a greater community; they had not done so in the past, why should they be forced to do so now? And so the chaos spread throughout New Eden. Scores upon scores of the dogs of chaos gathered into well organised packs, assaulting virgin systems and leaving none but the fiercest opposition to their toil. An age would pass, the packs shifting among the stars as waters through a sieve, taking anything not met with resilience parallel or greater than their own. Woes and anguish would not cede among the mining communities; the powers that be would given in, and strain their resources to design a vessel not vulnerable to these crimes. And so it should come to pass that the Hulk graces the expanses of New Eden, affording the mining community not only the security of mining without the necessity of a jettison container, but with improved defenses and ore yields to complement this. It would thus be found that the dogs of chaos would begin to run out of prey. Hungry for the profits they had previously known, they would direct their attention to a new technology. The ability to salvage the wreckages of battles had would be known to the galaxy; an age old tradition stemming from the Empires' forlorn and forgotten home, Earth. Scraping what logs of human law had remained on the pioneering vessels, the powers that be were able to surmise that wrecks had none to lay claim to their contents. Derelict vessels not unlike those found in the greater ship graveyards of New Eden would soon to be utilized as bountiful veins of renewable resources, affording citizens the right to invention and vessel augmentations, breaking the monopolies formerly held only by the more vested Factional Corporations. And so it would come to pass that the dogs had found this avenue profitable; reaping the vast scores of derelict vessels for all their salvageable materials, owing no part to any being but themselves. However, it would not be long before missioners would find these dogs prowling grounds they had laid claim to. They demanded recourse, ignoring the faults of their miner companions, ignoring the potential for a greater chaos within New Eden; the isolation of the great from the small. And it is with this that we find ourselves in the current age. An age yet again born of dissent and tumult. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.17 04:27:00 - [227] Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 17/01/2009 04:28:38 ./story Ok, so basically, back when we didn't have can aggro, EVERYONE, and I mean but EVERYONE that wasn't mining into a jetcan got picked on - it didn't matter how old they were, it didn't matter how many members their corp had, it didn't matter if they were among the big alliances; if they were jetcan mining, you could damn well bet they were going to get stolen from. When can aggro got introduced, jetcan theft almost instantly shifted to affecting only smaller corporations or gangs of miners, since they were the least likely to pose a threat to the thieves. These players were most of the time between refusing to use secure cans for mining, refusing to join corps and refusing to mine in larger groups, because they simply didn't see why they should go through any effort to mine in 'safety', since they are in empire, and clearly empire is meant to be snoozeville. If salvage aggro had to be introduced, we'd see a near instant shift of individual salvagers targeting only smaller corps or groups of mission runners, because they are adjusting to reduce the risk to themselves. Suddenly Ninjas and our corp are just that, corporations. People can take out wardecs against us to deal with us before we even enter their missions. What do people do instead? Complain on the forums because they can't deal with having to defend themselves. It is tiring for those of us placing ourselves in a situation where we can and want to be dealt with to goad you into finally sucking up your own mistakes and learning to defend what you believe is yours. The pen may be mightier than the sword, but you can inflict more mortal wounds with a sword from a greater range than a pen. This is not to say that you, the individuals, need to take up arms; you simply have to get yourself into a corporation that HAS people that WILL take up arms on your behalf. Instead, you refuse to 'deal with childish corp politics' and come to cry about ninja salvagers and mission looters on the forums, and demand a means of recourse against those taking only salvage. Tell me, if the guy is in your mission in a HAC outfitted specifically to take out your ship, but also be effective at salvaging, and will be invulnerable when remotely supported, would you engage him anyway, knowing that you stand just as much chance against him as if he were specifically taking loot to get you to aggro? Do you somehow believe that by being able to shoot at these people, you will magically stop them from coming to take your stuff anyway? --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.17 09:58:00 - [228] Originally by: Belmarduk Originally by: Chruker Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense This I STILL feel that the salvage from MY Mission belongs to me - ever since salvage was introduced.Period Your "feelings" are contradicted by the facts.
General Ric EXPLORATIS	Posted - 2009.01.17 17:15:00 - [229] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja If salvage aggro had to be introduced, we'd see a near instant shift of individual salvagers targeting only smaller corps or groups of mission runners, because they are adjusting to reduce the risk to themselves. So? If I'm the one being picked on, I would be fine with that because they have the bigger stick. Its my fault for not organizing a bigger better group of players for mutual defense. Its how the real world works. Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Suddenly Ninjas and our corp are just that, corporations. People can take out wardecs against us to deal with us before we even enter their missions. What do people do instead? Complain on the forums because they can't deal with having to defend themselves. It is tiring for those of us placing ourselves in a situation where we can and want to be dealt with to goad you into finally sucking up your own mistakes and learning to defend what you believe is yours. The pen may be mightier than the sword, but you can inflict more mortal wounds with a sword from a greater range than a pen. This is not to say that you, the individuals, need to take up arms; you simply have to get yourself into a corporation that HAS people that WILL take up arms on your behalf. Instead, you refuse to 'deal with childish corp politics' and come to cry about ninja salvagers and mission looters on the forums, and demand a means of recourse against those taking only salvage. Tell me, if the guy is in your mission in a HAC outfitted specifically to take out your ship, but also be effective at salvaging, and will be invulnerable when remotely supported, would you engage him anyway, knowing that you stand just as much chance against him as if he were specifically taking loot to get you to aggro? Personally I have never met anyone from Suddenly Ninjas, and they have never ninja salvaged any of my missions. It is impossible to anticipate who will show up to salvage my mission with 24 hours notice, and so far the majority of the salvagers who didn't loot the cans too have been in NPC corps. That is where the crux of the problem lies, there is no way to war dec a NPC corp. Even if I can convince my corp to go to war with Suddenly Ninjas, a lone SN salvager who stumbles across my mission is going to immediately recognize a war target is in the deadspace pocket, and there is no way a mission fitted BS is going to lock you down and scramble you before you get away. If it is a multi level mission, I might not even know that you have located me, and I could soon find a gang of 5-6 PvP fitted ships warping in and slaughtering my ass. Declaring war in this case is actually counter-productive if I am actually running missions, and not just trying to bait you and your corporation into a trap. Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Do you somehow believe that by being able to shoot at these people, you will magically stop them from coming to take your stuff anyway? No, but at least I have an option for recourse and it is up to me whether I take that option or not. If the members of Suddenly Ninjas were actually an organized corporation with balls, they would be looting the wrecks completely because they would know that getting shot at would be a chance at free faction loot when their buddies warp in and pop the noob in the mission fitted CNR.
Yarik Mendel Privateers	Posted - 2009.01.17 18:48:00 - [230] Edited by: Yarik Mendel on 17/01/2009 18:48:03 The answer is to make it at least a crime to salvage/loot it for 30 seconds. Only the owning corp and killer can salvage before the 30 second safeguard.
WAuter Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.18 19:09:00 - [231] Clean up your salvage during the mission not after...
Feilamya Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.18 19:59:00 - [232] Easy solution: Team up with a friend who runs missions in the same system. When he runs a mission, you salvage his stuff while he's shooting the rats. Then vice versa. No loss for either of you, because you none of you can shoot rats and salvage at the same time (except with an alt, but then salvage thieves are not an issue). (I know this looks like helping the carebears, but in fact I'm trolling the mission grinding carebears because most of them don't have friends. That's why they grind missions 24/7)
Togotchen Renamour Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:39:00 - [233] The problem still comes down to this: Salvage is part of the mission reward, and theft of it devalues the missions. Got it. I'm cool with that. But if I move to do level 4 missions in low sec- it's a loss. Because the advantage goes 100% to the mission raider. Ships lost, and plenty of tears, cried by people who aren't carebears. If CCP wants to make missions require a PVP fitting then I'm totally ok with the current dynamics. In low sec I have recourse- in high sec I do not. I don't care what happens in empire frankly. Really. I'd prefer that low sec have some playability. It currently has none for a non-pirate. Fix low sec, you fix empire. It's not that pirates, ninja looters, and can stealers don't have their place. It's the fact that recourse is usually impossible and Ninja looting is risk free.
Jonas Barcal Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:43:00 - [234] Edited by: Jonas Barcal on 18/01/2009 21:44:07 Originally by: Togotchen Renamour Salvage is part of the mission reward No salvage isn't part of the mission reward, salvage is a by product of a ship being blown up the wreck is the property of the person/npc that got blown up and the salvage rights are there on a first come first served basis. There is no difference whether the ship is destroyed in a mission or in the rest of the eve universe. *edit:fixed my quotes
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.18 21:45:00 - [235] Originally by: Togotchen Renamour Salvage is part of the mission reward, and theft of it devalues the missions. Dev says no-o: Originally by: CCP Prism X it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. Problem solved by being non-existent.
MPaladin O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.19 04:29:00 - [236] Edited by: MPaladin on 19/01/2009 04:37:00 Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Oh hi, guys! What's going on in this thread? (Miss me?) Heh wondered how long it would take for you to show up. Personally I find some (not all) ninja looters sort of cowardly, but hey CCP says its not exploiting to salvage a wreck. Personally I salvage my wrecks when possible, and I have no problem with someone who wants to salvage as long as they ask if its ok first. Sometimes they get a no and sometimes they get a yes go ahead, just depends on my mood at the time.
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2009.01.19 04:41:00 - [237] Why are people still talking about this?
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.19 04:59:00 - [238] Originally by: Schalac Why are people still talking about this? Eve is too risky ISK is hard to get level 4 missions are unfair pirates are mean.
Napro Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.19 06:08:00 - [239] Originally by: Belmarduk Originally by: Chruker Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense This I STILL feel that the salvage from MY Mission belongs to me - ever since salvage was introduced.Period Ninja-Salvagers are hiding behind the aggression system.Period Make it so that EVERYTHING is freely lootable or that EVERYTHING is not.Period If someone takes my salvage in highsec I want to be able to kill him.Period You are not a Dev. Period
Togg Bott Minmatar League of the Tiger and Tentacle	Posted - 2009.01.19 08:18:00 - [240] ok...i'll toss in my 2isk worth. 1). i run mission 2) ninja slavager takes time to scan me out 3) nija salvager comes in. i see him 4) i offer Nija salvager the rights to salvage AND loot the wrecks 5) salvager agree's 6) i buy said ninja salvager a dedicated salvage ship 7) i pop rats, he salvages behind me 8) go to station for a 50/50 split 9) repeat for profit its simple. it helps him. helps me. and isnt so DAMN boring to me. yes... this is my main. mission running is a means to make isk to pay for pvp. anything that makes it faster and less boring is fine by me.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.19 21:47:00 - [241] Originally by: MPaladin Heh wondered how long it would take for you to show up. I was reading this thread for a couple days, while out of game time, and it was killing me. (Not reading my own name, or someone complaining about my opinions, I mean.) Originally by: MPaladin Personally I find some (not all) ninja looters sort of cowardly, but hey CCP says its not exploiting to salvage a wreck. Personally I salvage my wrecks when possible, and I have no problem with someone who wants to salvage as long as they ask if its ok first. Sometimes they get a no and sometimes they get a yes go ahead, just depends on my mood at the time. I'm of a similar mind. I hate that NPC's are permitted to Ninja Salvage, and think that it's a privilege, not a right. Restrict NPC chars to Mining and Mission Running to a point, and then, they hit the glass ceiling. As for asking - it's similar for me. If someone asks me to stop, and I'm in a good mood (and they're polite - that's key) I might. If they're a dick, screw em.
Research Slots	Posted - 2009.01.19 22:19:00 - [242] Originally by: Belmarduk Originally by: Chruker Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense This I STILL feel that the salvage from MY Mission belongs to me - ever since salvage was introduced.Period Ninja-Salvagers are hiding behind the aggression system.Period Make it so that EVERYTHING is freely lootable or that EVERYTHING is not.Period If someone takes my salvage in highsec I want to be able to kill him.Period Your tears, we has dem.
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.19 22:21:00 - [243] You want salvage to be Protected? then you gotta leave the protection off your loot. yep, that's right, you cannot have both protected at the same time.
Mordrake Orbital Anvil Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.20 00:11:00 - [244] Salvage is a viable profession, did you ever watch the Beachcombers? Old Relic and his beat up black boat flitting around looking for stuff to grab and sell? Its fair game after you blow it up. My solution is if I see a salvager show up in a mission of mine I blow up all the wrecks... eventually they get the idea that they will not get a free lunch off of you and not bother warping to ya when they scan you out.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 02:04:00 - [245] Originally by: Mordrake Salvage is a viable profession, did you ever watch the Beachcombers? /me shudders and wonders how we ever got a truly Canadian reference like "The Beachcombers" in here. Of course, if you want to call me "The King Of Kensington", then that's a different story. Just don't relegate my profession to that terrible, terrible show.
Cyprus Black Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.20 04:08:00 - [246] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. You seem familiar. Were you in Umokka when this NPC corp ninja salvager struck?
Bomberlocks	Posted - 2009.01.20 04:20:00 - [247] Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around. The arrogance of attitudes expressed by CCP developers seems to know no bounds. Your post had my finger hovering over the cancel subscription button for a while there. It sadly seems to me that CCP is so undisciplined as a company that they are willing to let developers with poor communication skills loose on their customers. It is puzzling for sure. It also, sadly, points out a fairly glaring weakness within CCP itself: The inability to make good design decisions. A case in point: If you love the game being so hostile (really "l337" attitude their, mate), why, for the love of all that's holy, not get rid of hisec altogether, make a decent introductory period for new players, with proper, detailed tutorials and training, and then, after this period, let them loose into the big, wide "hostile" world of PvP? YOU made hisec. YOU made carebears possible. YOU made Concord. If you don't like it,why the hell did you make it in the first place. It smacks of either gross incompetence, or, what is more likely, a ploy, combined with laziness on the part of the designers ("Coders rule" mentality) to keep new players in Eve in order to drive sales. It is a favourite pastime to sneer at so called carebears on this forum, yet you make them possible, albeit with barely concealed hostility. Yet you keep them and hisec around, probably because there are so many of them and they, surprise surprise, help pay for your salary. It's ironic that in the REAL hostile world out there, you are dependant on real people to keep you alive.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.20 04:23:00 - [248] Originally by: Bomberlocks The arrogance of attitudes expressed by CCP developers seems to know no bounds. Your post had my finger hovering over the cancel subscription button for a while there. It sadly seems to me that CCP is so undisciplined as a company that they are willing to let developers with poor communication skills loose on their customers. It is puzzling for sure. It also, sadly, points out a fairly glaring weakness within CCP itself: The inability to make good design decisions. A case in point: If you love the game being so hostile (really "l337" attitude their, mate), why, for the love of all that's holy, not get rid of hisec altogether, make a decent introductory period for new players, with proper, detailed tutorials and training, and then, after this period, let them loose into the big, wide "hostile" world of PvP? YOU made hisec. YOU made carebears possible. YOU made Concord. If you don't like it,why the hell did you make it in the first place. It smacks of either gross incompetence, or, what is more likely, a ploy, combined with laziness on the part of the designers ("Coders rule" mentality) to keep new players in Eve in order to drive sales. It is a favourite pastime to sneer at so called carebears on this forum, yet you make them possible, albeit with barely concealed hostility. Yet you keep them and hisec around, probably because there are so many of them and they, surprise surprise, help pay for your salary. It's ironic that in the REAL hostile world out there, you are dependant on real people to keep you alive. But what they didn't do was make High Sec risk-free, a point you have missed entirely. Personally I like the way CCP communicates with us on the forums. It's a more human sort of communication than just spouting uniform company talking points.
Bomberlocks	Posted - 2009.01.20 04:30:00 - [249] Originally by: Dirk Magnum But what they didn't do was make High Sec risk-free, a point you have missed entirely. Personally I like the way CCP communicates with us on the forums. It's a more human sort of communication than just spouting uniform company talking points. No, I didn't miss that point. The topic of the thread is about the so-called risk in hisec, yet the developer was indicating how much he, and presumably CCP in general dislike hisec ("we don't want to increase mission grinding in hisec"). Also, if CCP were so good at communicating with the players here, then it would also be nice if they were to be more transparent when it comes to really controversial issues such as the exploits that have been discovered with very little communication on the issue by CCP itself.
Terra Mikael SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.20 04:30:00 - [250] Why is it okay? Because I can!
Evelgrivion Ignatium. Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.01.20 08:52:00 - [251] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 20/01/2009 08:53:05 Originally by: Bomberlocks The arrogance of attitudes expressed by CCP developers seems to know no bounds. Your post had my finger hovering over the cancel subscription button for a while there. It sadly seems to me that CCP is so undisciplined as a company that they are willing to let developers with poor communication skills loose on their customers. It is puzzling for sure. It also, sadly, points out a fairly glaring weakness within CCP itself: The inability to make good design decisions. A case in point: If you love the game being so hostile (really "l337" attitude their, mate), why, for the love of all that's holy, not get rid of hisec altogether, make a decent introductory period for new players, with proper, detailed tutorials and training, and then, after this period, let them loose into the big, wide "hostile" world of PvP? YOU made hisec. YOU made carebears possible. YOU made Concord. If you don't like it,why the hell did you make it in the first place. It smacks of either gross incompetence, or, what is more likely, a ploy, combined with laziness on the part of the designers ("Coders rule" mentality) to keep new players in Eve in order to drive sales. It is a favourite pastime to sneer at so called carebears on this forum, yet you make them possible, albeit with barely concealed hostility. Yet you keep them and hisec around, probably because there are so many of them and they, surprise surprise, help pay for your salary. It's ironic that in the REAL hostile world out there, you are dependant on real people to keep you alive. Your reply just made Prism X win the forums.
Vanderie Amarr Ignatium. Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.01.20 09:02:00 - [252] Originally by: Evelgrivion Your reply just made Prism X win the forums. I second this notion. Furthermore, this thread is a solid block of "bawwww" and tears. It so beautiful. -Vanderie
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.20 09:06:00 - [253] Originally by: Bomberlocks Originally by: Dirk Magnum But what they didn't do was make High Sec risk-free, a point you have missed entirely. Personally I like the way CCP communicates with us on the forums. It's a more human sort of communication than just spouting uniform company talking points. No, I didn't miss that point. The topic of the thread is about the so-called risk in hisec, yet the developer was indicating how much he, and presumably CCP in general dislike hisec ("we don't want to increase mission grinding in hisec"). Also, if CCP were so good at communicating with the players here, then it would also be nice if they were to be more transparent when it comes to really controversial issues such as the exploits that have been discovered with very little communication on the issue by CCP itself. Oh wow, 9 pages and this thread is still teaming with life. Are you talking about the POS exploit? They have given satisfactory communication with the playerbase. There will be another update soon, so your point here is completely wrong. CCP has decent communication, you just don't like what CCP is communicating. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.20 09:34:00 - [254] Originally by: Vaal Erit CCP has decent communication, you just don't like what CCP is communicating. Exactly this.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.01.20 10:02:00 - [255] I like it when a Dev answer like this. That give us more hindsight in what CCP really think about their game and want to do. You want Devs being Politicaly Correct(tm) at all times, and giving you next to no information on how it really works? Then cancel your sub, and go find another game.
Axel Vindislaga	Posted - 2009.01.20 10:10:00 - [256] *You got it right m8, it's the salvage like in 'anybody's salvage' not like in 'my' salvage.* OK we all accept this concept for salvage now apply it to cargo.
The AEther	Posted - 2009.01.20 12:23:00 - [257] Originally by: Arous Drephius Originally by: CCP Prism X it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Devpwnt. so very very pwnt
Dotard Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 13:25:00 - [258] Edited by: Dotard on 20/01/2009 13:26:44 CCP; Just give it to them. Give Mission Runners shootin' rights when their missions salvaged. All I ask is, just like their entire corp gets shooting rights, when fired upon their entire corp gets aggro'd by my entire corp. You shoot my buddies, I can shoot you in their defence. Be like a mini 15 minute wardec. Won't that be the ****zle? JaneNinja is mission invading and swiping salvage and lootz. FrancesMissionRunner fires on JaneNinja. JoeNinja is just cruising the belts, oblivious to what's happening in a deadspace somewhere, when he notices that a shiney Hulk suddenly goes flashy red. ((Wha? S.h.i.z is censored?))
Leaving Eve	Posted - 2009.01.20 13:29:00 - [259] Actually, I think salvage & looting should not cause a criminal flag. See my thoughts here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=977995
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.01.20 16:41:00 - [260] Originally by: Leaving Eve Actually, I think salvage & looting should not cause a criminal flag. See my thoughts here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=977995 Quite why this isn't the case is baffling. Surely if salvaging is ok, looting is ok, too. Any comments about "it's merely an NPC wreck and not your property" support this. So the flagging for looting, but not salvaging completely contradicts the CCCP stance on this.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:20:00 - [261] Originally by: Vanderie I second this notion. Furthermore, this thread is a solid block of "bawwww" and tears. You rang? TEARS is capitalized, btw. We're Recruiting!
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:24:00 - [262] Originally by: Gunnanmon Originally by: Leaving Eve Actually, I think salvage & looting should not cause a criminal flag. See my thoughts here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=977995 Quite why this isn't the case is baffling. Surely if salvaging is ok, looting is ok, too. Any comments about "it's merely an NPC wreck and not your property" support this. So the flagging for looting, but not salvaging completely contradicts the CCCP stance on this. Loot is good stuff. Salvage is garbage. CCP has explained this. The most baffling thing is why that isn't the end of this discussion.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:25:00 - [263] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Honestly, look at it this way. You are the Commanding Officer on the deck of a ship designed for naval warfare belonging to the United States of America. You are in enemy waters, and have just sunk a insert-fictional-country-here's very expensive ship. (Which was actually a British tank.) Also, OH MY GOD: ANOTHER MULTI-PAGE THREAD ON THIS AGAIN?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:55:00 - [264] I agree with the OP. Nerf NPC corps.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:49:00 - [265] Originally by: Bomberlocks Originally by: Dirk Magnum But what they didn't do was make High Sec risk-free, a point you have missed entirely. Personally I like the way CCP communicates with us on the forums. It's a more human sort of communication than just spouting uniform company talking points. No, I didn't miss that point. The topic of the thread is about the so-called risk in hisec, yet the developer was indicating how much he, and presumably CCP in general dislike hisec ("we don't want to increase mission grinding in hisec"). Also, if CCP were so good at communicating with the players here, then it would also be nice if they were to be more transparent when it comes to really controversial issues such as the exploits that have been discovered with very little communication on the issue by CCP itself. You did in fact miss the point. The dev in no way, even out of context, said they don't like hi-sec. He said that they want to try and prevent lvl4 missions in empire becoming the be-all, end-all of profits. If players had exclusive rights to their salvage or were afforded the ability to shoot anyone that dared glance at the wrecks sideways, there would quickly be a steady increase in organised mission running dedicated to mass lvl4 running and trawling. Why the change? Because they know that they'll be able to deal with the annoying little salvagers that will definately notice the big blip on the radar and come to salvage all willy-nilly. Go take a look at this thread of mine, where I suggested restrictions be placed on players as to what ships they are allowed to fly while in an NPC corp, and associated restrictions when changing/leaving/joining corps. The gist of the 20 pages of name calling and recyled arguments and counter arguments is that there are people trying to protect their investments they have made into alts flying T2 ships (read: jump freighters, transports, exhumers, recons, covert ops ships) that are in NPC corps, that they would prefer to keep in said NPC corps, to make it impossible to declare war on them. It was considered nothing but a request to create a super-exploitable situation where players would be forced to join 'vulnerable corporations' or even form their own ones simply to be able to fly ships they believe they have a right to fly regardless of what corporation they are in. And yet, it could prevent such things as neutral logistics pilots. It could prevent such things as jump freighters safely jumping to a fringe system and entering empire without so much as a fart in its general direction, where people knew for a fact it was supplying their war targets' logistical backbone, and that they could have declared war on the corporation the pilot belongs to. It could prevent similar situations with transports and it could aid in a around-the-bush kind of way in combating macrominers, as they'd have timer restrictions placed on them when corp-shifting to avoid wardecs with their miners. Preventing NPC corpers from salvaging anyone's wrecks but their own or gang members' would be like the "you don't have permission to loot that corpse" rules or the way npc aggro works in WoW (which I'm giving a bash at the moment). I can tell you now, that stuff is lame. I'm finding it pathetic in that game that I can ruin a bunch of noobs' fun simply by going to their quest's location in my tanked up trial character and draw aggro of ALL the NPCs, including the ones they need to kill or get items from, and kill them, leaving NONE of them for these poor little noobs to kill, meaning they can't progress with their quest. They have no way to get rid of me further than reporting me and hoping there's a GM with a kind enough heart to stab me in the eye, hex me and throw me into enemy territory. Instead, in EVE, you're able to still try and get your objective/loot/stuff. You have luxuries, but all you can do is complain about them.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.20 22:04:00 - [266] So tell me, what EXACTLY is the issue with people taking 'your' salvage from the missions you're running? Give me reasoning for the following: 1. Why are the wrecks available for them to salvage? 1.1 If it's because you're running the missions alone; why are you running them alone? 1.2 If it's because you have no salvager alt; do you not want to, are you unable to or do you not feel you should need to run a second account to do it for you? If 1.2 is a case where you feel you do not need to do so, have you reconsidered running missions with another person? 2. Exactly what kinds of players are coming to take your stuff? 2.1 If they are NPC corpers, have you considered moving to a non-hub system? 2.2 If you're not moving to a non-hub system, why? 2.3 If you answer "because I don't feel I should need to" to 2.2, I am going to use my metaphorical rusty spork to metaphorically stab you in the metaphorical eye. 3. If they are players, how frequently do you see people from the same corporation coming to salvage your missions? 3.1 In the event it is frequently players from the same corporation (fex: suddenly ninjas in dodixie and surrounds), have you considered 3.2 or 3.3? 3.2 Have you considered moving to a non-hub system? 3.3 Have you considered declaring war on their corporation? More should be added to this, but just answer those for now. Basically, the options that are available to you right now are: 1. moving to a non-hub system, knowing that if there's few enough people there running missions, the ninja salvagers will not bother you as they won't get frequent enough probing hits to make it worth their while 2. declaring war on the offending corporation(s), knowing that you will be afforded a means of removing these people from your missions (not enough wardec slots? you're definately still in a hub mate) 3. teaming up with someone that can run a dedicated salvager+looter platform so that there's nothing for the ninjas anyway 4. getting an alt to do this with "I only come on for an hour or two after work and don't have time to have to socialize with people or find someone that can run a mission with me before I go tend to my wife, multiple children, backlog of bills and taxes, book balancing, car washing, clothes ironing, shoe polishing, dog petting, toilet bowl cleaning, showering, eating, sleeping, defecating, hair combing, working and driving" is not a valid excuse. There are literally hundreds of people in some corporations that have similar schedules to you with whom you could come to an arrangement with, so that you can both (if it's only two of you) work together and be happy. You: "I'm able to play and want to run missions between 9pm and 10pm GMT+1" 1of300: "I'm able to play between 8pm and 10pm GMT+1 - I could fit a mission or two in there." And voila! You have someone you could potentially team up with. Don't want to have to deal with being social? Wait, who said you need to be social? It's a business agreement - you help him and he helps you, you both benefit and get what you want. You're still getting ninja'd? Maybe you need to revise your strategy a bit or move out of that damned hub. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:50:00 - [267] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Holy Mary, Mother of God that's a lot of text. Please tell me you have this available for copypasta, and that you simply don't type it every single time.
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:54:00 - [268] 9 pages to say what is pretty basic EvE code? Because I can?
Ankhesentapemkah	Posted - 2009.01.21 16:19:00 - [269] Shoot the wrecks and/or not mission in a system every other stupid mission-*****-clone-and-his-alts are in.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 17:09:00 - [270] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Shoot the wrecks and/or not mission in a system every other stupid mission-*****-clone-and-his-alts are in. WHAAAAAT??? What kind of language are you bringing to our threadnought, Ankh? (...and I had held you in such high esteem, too.) We're Recruiting!
Kiran Minmatar EXPLORATIS Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2009.01.21 18:07:00 - [271] Sorry to say but if I see wrecks that I can salvage I will do so. But I don't scan down missions to find it I just roam the belts and gates and pick them up there. But as my scanning skills increase I will start to look for these sites cause its like my old man once said to me. " Never pass up the oppertunity to take a wazz." Much like salvage. Now if I loot them as well then thats a different matter and I expect to be shot at, so I just leave the cans floating. ----------------------------------------------- Kiran-"Falling is a kind of a peacful experience. But its the sudden stop at the end thats the killer."
Piratejoe Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:11:00 - [272] This is only a problem if you let it bother you or dont take proactive steps too stop it. If you dont think its a problem then just loot and salvage as you go and leave the rest for the vultures. If you hate this type of activity as I do then just do what I do. The scumbags show up when your in the middle of your mission (last night I had three show up at the same time) and they start moving toward my wrecks. I stopped attacking the NPC battleship I was fighting and then proceded too destroy every wreck out their with my Drones and Missles, giving the scumbags no reason too stick around. These guys (last night) then thought it was cute too drop a can when I was destroying all my wrecks (prob hoping I was a noob player and would shoot their can). But no, After their was no more wrecks I then went after the BS I was killing and killed the wrecks as soon as the BS died, and went for the trigger ships when I could. They got bored and saw that they were going too lose isk just folling me around getting nothing and I was not going too fall for their games, they left and things went back too normal (with the exeption of me dropping cans of random junk loot and renaming the can after wrecks, two can play the drop cans game) End of story. Be proactive if you dont like these guys and dont give them any reason too stick around.
Deadeye Devie Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:17:00 - [273] Ok, ive stated elswhere in a thread on this same subject, and ill state here too! I, myself, have recently taken up ninja salvaging, and i find it a benefit to my gaming in reguards to my real life timetable. Let me explain it this way. i CAN and HAVE been running lvl 4 missions for about 1 year now...but even with salvaging counted in at the end, thuis takes me about anywhere from 1-2 hrs for a mission with a TOTAL PAYOFF AFTER SALES OF 50 MIL. sooo, i spent all that time, training for a Domi and boosting up drone skills, getting large turrets, and for what? to run missions to make money to fund flying Covert ops ships, inties, EAS, and AFs......taking time out of training to perfect this type of ship. I HATE flying big ships, but to pull good money in, i needed to.....but then i started playing round with scanning n probing and found i could probe out other missions and salvage the crap outta them, making about the sale 50 mil in only a fraction of the time!! (last night it was about 8 mins rewarded me with 42 mil). Now, my gaming time is limited to maybe 1-2 hours a week, and perhaps an odd session longer every other weekend, due to work and keeping a house above my head tidy and livable...so when it comes to weekends i want to be out in a ceptor or probing out exploration sites to help my corp. Thus ninja salvaging enables me to fund my frigate habit without having to expent extra time on ships i will never want to use appart from grinding tedius, repetative, mind-numingly long missions. Does this at all make sense? it does to me!!! Also, as far as the 'theft' policy goes, as has been said many times, salvage is junk...just because you shot the ship, doesnt mean you have the right to the rubbish...if i went to a junkyard and got a write-off car you chucked away, took it, stripped it down of its usefull, undamaged parts, then went on to sell these bits to people who needed them to fix thier cars, would this mean im stealing from you???? NO, its junk...if you want it, you take it, if not then its someone elses...first come first served...one mans trash is another mans treasure. Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.21 20:54:00 - [274] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Holy Mary, Mother of God that's a lot of text. Please tell me you have this available for copypasta, and that you simply don't type it every single time. Nope, I just type fairly quickly. :\| 'sides, I prefer regurgitating the same opinion driven post repeatedly, rather than simply copy-pasta'ing it - at least that way I, and/or others, can track if/when/why my opinion of something might change. Also, I have lately become more intimate with my forward slash key. Just so you guys know.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 22:50:00 - [275] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Nope, I just type fairly quickly. :\| /me wonders if he should hire AnonyTerrorNinja to type up his next Blog post... We're Recruiting!
Laszlo Ozawa	Posted - 2009.01.21 22:57:00 - [276] 'stealing salvage' is a technical impossibility because the word stealing implies ownership of something, and the word 'salvage' implies that something having no owner.
Bomberlocks	Posted - 2009.01.22 04:09:00 - [277] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja You did in fact miss the point. The dev in no way, even out of context, said they don't like hi-sec. He said that they want to try and prevent lvl4 missions in empire becoming the be-all, end-all of profits. If players had exclusive rights to their salvage or were afforded the ability to shoot anyone that dared glance at the wrecks sideways, there would quickly be a steady increase in organised mission running dedicated to mass lvl4 running and trawling..... I see what you mean and I apologise. I was under the impression that hi-sec was something that was only grudgingly "tolerated". I personally have nothing against ninja-mining. I don't have the probe skills to actually do it myself, but I take other players ratting wrecks all the time when I've got nothing better to do (I generally ask if it's a miner, though). I'vehad missions that have been ninja'ed before and I am ok with that. I see it as part of the game mechanics. I think, though, that the most confusing thing in Eve for a newbie is the fact that you can't just shoot anyone in hisec. It's what feeds the wiles of newbie can baiters etc, and, although I think it shouldn't be banned in 1.0 starter systems, it certainy makes the game more interesting: the fact that there are rules that apply in some places and other places where there are no rules but those the players themselves make.
Cyprus Black Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.01.22 04:50:00 - [278] Most mission runners leave their wrecks and loot behind. They don't feel like wasting time to salvage and loot them. The problem is that us salvagers can't warp in on a wreck site if nobody else is there. We can only warp in when another player is there which is almost always the mission runner. This is why ninja salvaging is so pervasive. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm an avid ninja salvager. It is my main source of income, mission running being second. I would like to see some changes though. 1) Wrecks aren't considered fixed points in space which means we can't warp in on them. This needs to change so that we can warp onto a dead space location full of wrecks. 2) It's an unpopular idea and I know fellow ninja salvagers will take offense, but wrecks should have salvage rights just like loot does. However, the extent of said rights towards wrecks need to change. Maybe if the mission runner warps away, he looses the rights and they become FFA first come first serve. The logical argument to this is that these two changes would kill the salvaging profession. I disagree. There are plenty of mission runners who don't salvage and don't loot. There is plenty left over to keep the same income flowing in for salvagers. But this is all theoretical and based on my personal experiences and opinions. ______________ Some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.22 08:53:00 - [279] Originally by: Cyprus Black Edited by: Cyprus Black on 22/01/2009 04:58:41 Many mission runners leave their wrecks and loot behind. They don't feel like wasting time to salvage and loot them. The problem is that us salvagers can't warp in on a wreck site if nobody else is there. We can only warp in when another player is there which is almost always the mission runner. This is why ninja salvaging is so pervasive. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm an avid ninja salvager. It is my main source of income, mission running being second. I would like to see some changes though. 1) Wrecks aren't considered fixed points in space which means we can't warp in on them. This needs to change so that we can warp onto a dead space location full of wrecks. 2) It's an unpopular idea and I know fellow ninja salvagers will take offense, but wrecks should have salvage rights just like loot does. However, the extent of said rights towards wrecks need to change. Maybe if the mission runner warps away, he looses the rights and they become FFA first come first serve. The logical argument to this is that these two changes would kill the salvaging profession. I disagree. There are plenty of mission runners who don't salvage and don't loot. There is plenty left over to keep the same income flowing in for salvagers. But this is all theoretical and based on my personal experiences and opinions. Actually, that's a pretty good compromise suggestion: salvage is flagged to the "owner" only for as long as they stay in grid. If you leave it, you lose it. Those who want to actively defend the salvage they've made can do so, those who want to bait chumps into firing on salvagers can do so, those who just want to tidy up unwanted wrecks and make some ISK can do so. I like it.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.22 10:05:00 - [280] I see minor issues with that suggestion. Some missions are single-pocket, others are escalating. How would the salvage ownership be determined? Belongs to the mission owner or to any member of the gang taking part in the mission? If the former, the mission owner would need to be the salvager, unless he wants his wrecks to lose his 'ownership' when he goes into the next pocket to pew pew the rest of the rats. Of course, this only really means that if he's using an alt, he needs to get the alt's standings up to accept the missions instead, but yeah... I do like that it promotes an idea of teamwork to defend something, tho. Maybe if that kind of change had to be implemented, people would get a cl00 and stop complaining about being picked on by the entire galaxy and their pet Minmatar Slaver Hound.
mcnuggetlol Amarr Cold Blooded Killers	Posted - 2009.01.22 10:15:00 - [281] Think of it this way: If you went out and shot someone in the face, would their stuff now belong to you?
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.22 10:44:00 - [282] Depends on the country. Let's say it's America or the UK. You are a criminal, the police come to wtflolpwn you and the stuff formerly belonging to the person you killed is given to those in their will. Let's say, on the other hand, it's some backwater micro-nation in Africa with tribal laws, that dictates 'if you kill him, his wife, children and all his possessions become yours, if he has no son-of-age to take ownership of them'. In that case, someone else could come along and kill you and in turn take ownership of all that. Then someone could come and kill him, etc etc etc. The former example could be empire and the latter low-sec. 0.0 could be space, because noone can hear you scream there.
Jemtek	Posted - 2009.01.22 13:53:00 - [283] Originally by: Akita T "Tell me again why stealing salvage is ok?" Because it's not "EVE : Chronicles of Riddick - 'You keep what you kill' "... You Akita are my new hero... for that quote!!!!!!
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.01.22 14:09:00 - [284] Originally by: Abrazzar It is ok because you already got rewarded for doing the mission (ISK, LPs, Standing) and for creating the wrecks (Bounty, Loot Rights) and the salvager is investing the same amount of time for salvaging as you would, plus an investment in time and ISK to even find any location worth salvaging. Considering that you are guaranteed to know the whereabouts of sizable amounts of wrecks you are already in an advantage over the freelance salvager. Consider yourself lucky. That sounds reasonable. The 'loot thief' isn't stealing from you, just claiming what is left behind. Until you pick it up, it isn't really yours. It can be annoying, but that's just the way it is. On the flip side, I occasionally advertise for people to loot what I leave behind, and it's surprising how often they don't, even in busy systems.
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.01.22 14:22:00 - [285] Originally by: Cyprus Black Edited by: Cyprus Black on 22/01/2009 04:58:41 Many mission runners leave their wrecks and loot behind. They don't feel like wasting time to salvage and loot them. The problem is that us salvagers can't warp in on a wreck site if nobody else is there. We can only warp in when another player is there which is almost always the mission runner. This is why ninja salvaging is so pervasive. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm an avid ninja salvager. It is my main source of income, mission running being second. I would like to see some changes though. 1) Wrecks aren't considered fixed points in space which means we can't warp in on them. This needs to change so that we can warp onto a dead space location full of wrecks. 2) It's an unpopular idea and I know fellow ninja salvagers will take offense, but wrecks should have salvage rights just like loot does. However, the extent of said rights towards wrecks need to change. Maybe if the mission runner warps away, he looses the rights and they become FFA first come first serve. The logical argument to this is that these two changes would kill the salvaging profession. I disagree. There are plenty of mission runners who don't salvage and don't loot. There is plenty left over to keep the same income flowing in for salvagers. But this is all theoretical and based on my personal experiences and opinions. There's the nugget of some good ideas there. However, I would make a few changes: In the first example, I wouldn't make the cans points in space, but rather make an option on the mission for the mission holder to make the mission space available to the whole region. It would be the equivalent of flicking a switch on the beacon that says 'broadcast location'. This would allow all people in the system to see it, and warp to it, if they want. However, this could prove impractical if there are a high number of missions simultaneously operating in the same system. In the second example, there could be an option to 'release the salvage rights' on the mission, so the mission runner can forego any rights or ownership on the salvage, and anyone can loot the cans with impunity. The nature of the game's coding may prove these ideas impractical, but it is a thought. It certainly would be interesting to see if ninja looters enjoy trying to beat other ninja looters to the best wrecks.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 14:30:00 - [286] /me waves his hand at the screen and walks away. "Bah. Salvage Rights? I have all the Salvage Rights I need, right here." We're Recruiting!
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:15:00 - [287] I'll repost my suggestion from waaaaaaaay back when: 1) Wrecks will need two timers: - Time to live ( the current ~2 hours before they vanish) - Time owned = suggest 30 minutes. Tractoring during this time only possible by owner, looting and salvaging by a non-owner gives a flag. Once the time owned timer is done, it's everyone's. Can be tractored, salvaged, looted with no flags to anyone. 2) Put wrecks back on the Scan Groups list (and make it work this time), so that recon and exploration probes can find them. But they only will show up after the ownership timer is expired. This gives missioners time to clean up their deadspace so they aren't easily scanned down due to hundreds of wrecks lighting them up like a christmas tree. However, this also makes a salvager profession truely viable without having to scan down active missions to have a chance at all. All those abandoned wrecks that missioners leave behind can be cleaned up. Plus the added bonus of making a tractor beam a possibility. What this does is give everyone what they want. There are people on both sides of the debate wanting salvaging to criminal flag the "thief". Ok, the functionality is there. But only for 30 minutes. Move it or lose it. The "problem" with salvaging is that most people have a very greedy sense of entitlement and assume all things in their mission is therefore theirs by right. It seems to be the intuitive response for quite a percentage of newer players. Fine, give a nod to that inclination but with a true compromise of it being for a limited time only. If you leave stuff laying around, possesion is 9/10s and whatnot.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:21:00 - [288] Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 22/01/2009 15:22:18 Originally by: Roy Batty68 What this does is give everyone what they want. There are people on both sides of the debate wanting salvaging to criminal flag the "thief". Ok, the functionality is there. But only for 30 minutes. Move it or lose it. Try three minutes - because if you don't fit a salvager, or have a buddy, tough luck. Oh, and while we're on the 'timer' idea, make Mission Wreck loot follow the same rule. Hey, if we're giving the 'ownership' of the wreck to the Mission Runner, even on a timer, then the loot should also be fair game when the timer expires. (After all, most people have a very greedy sense of entitlement and assume all things - even loot - in their mission is therefore theirs by right.)
Piratejoe Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:44:00 - [289] I'd rather have a new module, something like a Deadspace Amp module. Pro's: Makes it hard too almost impossible too scan down mission runners in high sec. Negatives: A. Takes up a valuable module space B. Should have some negative impact on the ship like less power or cpu or something C. Should be a very high ranked skill too train for, like rank 16 Everyones happy now, The mission runners are given the ability too hide from people that would scan them down and take what they see as their wrecks but they have too trade this off with a weaker mission ship.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:53:00 - [290] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 22/01/2009 15:22:18 Originally by: Roy Batty68 What this does is give everyone what they want. There are people on both sides of the debate wanting salvaging to criminal flag the "thief". Ok, the functionality is there. But only for 30 minutes. Move it or lose it. Try three minutes - because if you don't fit a salvager, or have a buddy, tough luck. Oh, and while we're on the 'timer' idea, make Mission Wreck loot follow the same rule. Hey, if we're giving the 'ownership' of the wreck to the Mission Runner, even on a timer, then the loot should also be fair game when the timer expires. (After all, most people have a very greedy sense of entitlement and assume all things - even loot - in their mission is therefore theirs by right.) That's what I meant. Loot and salvage. Samey same for jettisoned crap as far as that goes. The three minute thing wouldn't fly and you know it. If you're gonna compromise, you gotta be a bit realistic. You know as well as I that people would complain about "only" 30 minutes. "It takes me an hour and a half to do whatever Extraveganza blah blah blah". /shrug I don't really care one way or another. But it's obvious to me that, just like suicide ganking, as long as it is possible people are going to complain about it. Some kind of middle ground that throws a bone to everyone involved is potentially better than the continual forum lessons approach. ---- ≡v≡
Salliene Gallente Trinity Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.01.22 15:59:00 - [291] Originally by: Piratejoe I'd rather have a new module, something like a Deadspace Amp module. Pro's: Makes it hard too almost impossible too scan down mission runners in high sec. Negatives: A. Takes up a valuable module space B. Should have some negative impact on the ship like less power or cpu or something C. Should be a very high ranked skill too train for, like rank 16 Everyones happy now, The mission runners are given the ability too hide from people that would scan them down and take what they see as their wrecks but they have too trade this off with a weaker mission ship. How are you going to fit that module on your drones? 99% of the time when I go into someones mission I am following their drone signature, not their ship signature. Drones are easier to find and if they have drones out then they sure aren't in Recon Part 3! I ran missions with my corp for the past 2 weeks, and we never had a single person show up in our missions to ninja-loot, ninja-salvage, or ninja-anything. If you are in Dodixie or any of those other systems and have people showing up in your missions, you have no one to blame but the person sitting in your chair holding your mouse. 3500 systems in EVE but some people never see more than 3. One Girls Journey through the EVE Universe
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:04:00 - [292] Originally by: Piratejoe I'd rather have a new module, something like a Deadspace Amp module. Pro's: Makes it hard too almost impossible too scan down mission runners in high sec. That's already happened - prior to a year ago, scanning was ~85%+ more effective, allowing a Ninja Salvager to scan down an EXPONENTIALLY LARGER number of Mission Runners. So, in effect, you got your 'new module' without having to sacrifice anything. Originally by: Roy Batty68 The three minute thing wouldn't fly and you know it. If you're gonna compromise, you gotta be a bit realistic. You know as well as I that people would complain about "only" 30 minutes. "It takes me an hour and a half to do whatever Extraveganza blah blah blah". You're right - it may take an hour and half to do the entire Mission, but once a shipwreck is formed, do you think it should take 30 minutes for them to salvage it? Count it for what it is - a three minute window to salvage that wreck, more than enough time for a tractor beam to engage, pull it in, and extract the contents. As it is today, bring a salvage buddy or fit a tractor. As it is, I believe I'm being more than fair giving them a 3 minute window of ownership.
Pnandor	Posted - 2009.01.22 19:53:00 - [293] Edited by: Pnandor on 22/01/2009 19:54:11 Well I did learn a lesson Next time I will only watch when he salvage my mission wrecks
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2009.01.22 20:17:00 - [294] Edited by: Lady Katrana on 22/01/2009 20:21:32 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Cyprus Black Edited by: Cyprus Black on 22/01/2009 04:58:41 Many mission runners leave their wrecks and loot behind. They don't feel like wasting time to salvage and loot them. The problem is that us salvagers can't warp in on a wreck site if nobody else is there. We can only warp in when another player is there which is almost always the mission runner. This is why ninja salvaging is so pervasive. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm an avid ninja salvager. It is my main source of income, mission running being second. I would like to see some changes though. 1) Wrecks aren't considered fixed points in space which means we can't warp in on them. This needs to change so that we can warp onto a dead space location full of wrecks. 2) It's an unpopular idea and I know fellow ninja salvagers will take offense, but wrecks should have salvage rights just like loot does. However, the extent of said rights towards wrecks need to change. Maybe if the mission runner warps away, he looses the rights and they become FFA first come first serve. The logical argument to this is that these two changes would kill the salvaging profession. I disagree. There are plenty of mission runners who don't salvage and don't loot. There is plenty left over to keep the same income flowing in for salvagers. But this is all theoretical and based on my personal experiences and opinions. Actually, that's a pretty good compromise suggestion: salvage is flagged to the "owner" only for as long as they stay in grid. If you leave it, you lose it. Those who want to actively defend the salvage they've made can do so, those who want to bait chumps into firing on salvagers can do so, those who just want to tidy up unwanted wrecks and make some ISK can do so. I like it. i agree, it is a decent compromise. edit: i am dumb, don't hate me
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.23 10:46:00 - [295] I see one small issue with a wreck salvage/loot ownership flag. The current static flag, I imagine, works like so on the database: NPC#12345 from DeadspaceContainer#54321 has been destroyed DeadspaceContainer#54321 belongs to PlayerCaldariBear Loot in Container Wreck#12345 from DeadSpaceContainer#54321 belongs to PlayerCaldariBear Create SalvageModifier from SalvageTable DeadspaceTable#54321 for Wreck#12345; reference DeadspaceContainer#54321 Entities And from there there's simply a time-created and time-to-remove-from-active-database-container time applied to the wreck. If you create a ownership timer, you're talking about creating a separate session change for the entitiy, namely Wreck#12345, as it has to change from being referenced as an Entitiy belonging to DeadspaceContainer#54321 belonging to PlayerCaldariBear to being a free-floating Wreck with no ownership instead. In other words, the container 'contents' have to be shifted to a new 'container', and a new reference for the salvage modifier has to be created; one that doesn't necessarily have its hook to DeadspaceContainer#54321 anymore, and needs a new hook. That reeks of potential performance issues to me. I do, however, support the idea if what I am saying is nowhere near the server side truth and it wouldn't impact the performance. I would however be kind of upset if it were only 3 minutes, as that would impact my... cough other occupations... (no, not referring to me running missions - when we do missions, we do them so efficiently that the average ninja would be kicking and screaming if they were in the mission with us) --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Permadocked Panda	Posted - 2009.01.23 11:01:00 - [296] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja I see one small issue with a wreck salvage/loot ownership flag. Yeah, the fact that CCP has publicly confirmed that it will never happen. lol
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.23 21:06:00 - [297] Except that there's no harm in discussing the what-if's. 'will never happen', I would like to see you point out exactly where it was specifically stated that it will absolutely never happen. It was claimed that the devs had often said that can 'theft' giving an aggro flag would 'never happen', but it did. It was often said that we'd never see the removal of the 15km minimum warping range, but it was removed. Thing is, IF there is a possibility that something could change, it's a good idea to discuss all the different possible outcomes, so that people know beforehand what they would be getting themselves into if X change were implemented. Otherwise we'd be able to use exotic dancers to create clones in space by now... hang on...... --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Axel Vindislaga	Posted - 2009.01.27 04:48:00 - [298] SHOOT YOUR WRECKS SHOOT YOUR WRECKS SHOOT YOUR WRECKS SHOOT YOUR WRECKS Then there is nothing to acquire Ha Ha
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.01.27 05:02:00 - [299] Salvaging is profit without any risk. Salvage thieves should get a flag.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.27 06:33:00 - [300] oh im sorry, i thought i was posting in a thread where a dev already responded and said this was working as intended. it seemed to me that he said every thing was fine, and people who think that salvaging should give a aggression countdown were wrong? y'know, a response that explicitly stated that salvaging is a mini profession without any sort of problem? hey Tchell, where is that thread? i ment to post there.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.27 08:36:00 - [301] Edited by: Tippia on 27/01/2009 08:36:01 Originally by: Stab Wounds Salvaging is profit without any risk. Yes, which is why missionrunners complain so bitterly: ninja salvaging is removing their risk-free profits. Quote: Salvage thieves should get a flag. They already do.
Salliene Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:16:00 - [302] Originally by: Tippia Quote: Salvage thieves should get a flag. They already do. What flag would that be, exactly?
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:27:00 - [303] Originally by: Salliene What flag would that be, exactly? The standard "theft" flag.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:31:00 - [304] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Salliene What flag would that be, exactly? The standard "theft" flag. Not for salvaging. Only when they loot the modules, too. They do gain the Red Flag for salvaging though, which they can wave at the mission runner and laugh at the insane rage and petulance their activity creates. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.27 12:33:00 - [305] Originally by: Abrazzar Not for salvaging. I wasn't talking about salvaging — I was talking about salvage theft. Two completely different things. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.27 13:34:00 - [306] Originally by: Stab Wounds Salvaging is profit without any risk. Salvage thieves should get a flag. Mission Running is playing EvE with training wheels. Mission Runners should get a helmet. Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux hey Tchell, where is that thread? i ment to post there. Sadly, this is said thread. Of course, it's come back down to the "I don't care what CCP said, it's gonna change - I know it!" from the Missionbears. Oh, and posting in a "Tchell Dahhn gets recognized as the Authority on Ninja Salvaging" thread. (...and for that, Jesslyn, I salute you.) We're Recruiting!
Luirich	Posted - 2009.01.27 14:43:00 - [307] By the logic of the majority here shouldn't loot also be a free for all? I agree that ninja salvagers should have risk of some sort.
Haldir Ravenclaw Tenacious Tendencies Black Union Brothers	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:03:00 - [308] Been said so many times, but it's true... - Salvage during the mission (guess what - Marauders!) - Shoot/destroy them if you don't want others to "steal" them - Stop working for certain agents in popular systems - Bring a friend/corp mate to do it for you (see above) - CCP said so In all the missions I've done I've never had a single salvage "thief" come into my mission (hint - not in Caldari space). Asked a few times if people wanted to and most of them think I'm being too suspicious First come first serve
Zitus	Posted - 2009.01.27 16:40:00 - [309] Originally by: Kale Kold Ahhh... carebears tears! yum yum. NO SIR! its OM NOM NOM! Your troll liscense has been revoked.
Ivana Kimyao Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:04:00 - [310] usually i just blow up the wrecks b4 they get to them. you could use use a marauder, or an alt, or a friendly corp mate, to salvage while you do the mission.
Sherazade Le'Slut	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:18:00 - [311] Originally by: Stab Wounds Salvaging is profit without any risk. Salvage thieves should get a flag. they get the flag when stealing (and stealing has always been an act of taking stuff out of someones can). seriously, if you get frequently jumped by ninjas in your mission, you're running it not fast enough. on a second note, salvaging was implemented with the means to create a new solo profession. to make money of trash left behind by other people. and that's exactly what salvage stands for: trash left behind.
Dedalus77 Junkyard Dogs	Posted - 2009.01.27 17:28:00 - [312] So I totally understand why Mission Runners who plan on salvaging the wrecks themselves get angry and whine about it even though I disagree with their thinking on the matter. But what I don't get is why they get angry if they are not intending on salvaging the wrecks. I mean, it bothers you so much that you're going to waste ammo to blow up the wrecks so I can't salvage them even though you don't want them? Why? What difference is it to you if I salvage them? How does it impact you in any way?
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.01.27 19:15:00 - [313] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: Stab Wounds Salvaging is profit without any risk. Salvage thieves should get a flag. Mission Running is playing EvE with training wheels. Mission Runners should get a helmet. Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux hey Tchell, where is that thread? i ment to post there. Sadly, this is said thread. Of course, it's come back down to the "I don't care what CCP said, it's gonna change - I know it!" from the Missionbears. Oh, and posting in a "Tchell Dahhn gets recognized as the Authority on Ninja Salvaging" thread. (...and for that, Jesslyn, I salute you.) cant hate you for being better recognized for doing the same thing ive been doing. maybe your just more annoying, lol. but i try, really hard. its a shame the devs even had to take the time to respond instead of working on the myriad of things they could be doing that they intend to do. stuff that matters, not worrying about quite literal refuse.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.01.27 20:25:00 - [314] He has more recognition because the rest of us don't have a corp/alliance of 40+ members to do this with, and even if we had we probably wouldn't focus ourselves on a single area as much, so as to not cut into eachother's work. But yeah, someone said that ninja salvagers should get some risk applied to salvaging other people's missions' wrecks. Tell me, what risk is there in you coming to salvage the wrecks after you've finished running the mission? You think they can't run lvl4s on their own? You clearly have not had B.AIT come and do your lvl4 mission for you, because you quite simply take far too long to do it yourself, only to have us not only strip the mission of salvage, but any loot (including objectives) that might have been lying around as a result of our hard work. I mean, since we're the ones that spent the time, risk and ammunition on it, it should be ours by default, right? Don't want to buy your mission objective back from us for a measly 5mil? Too bad, your problem.
Pnandor	Posted - 2009.01.27 21:39:00 - [315] PvE = Player versus Environment, Player versus Entity = fail in high sec because of ninja salvager baiter
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.01.31 09:35:00 - [316] Originally by: Decarus First of all destroyed ships do not always have loot contents in the wreck. True, but irrelevant to the issue. Originally by: Decarus You have a Dev here telling you that things are working as intended. Hell, you have at least 10 other threads on this matter yet CCP remains adamant along with most of the community which does not stand to gain millions from the change. You're still not reading what has already been posted. We are NOT disputing current game mechanics; we know they are working as intended. We would like to see them changed, nothing more. The devs are fond of pew pew apparently, so why not let us dish some out? You want to salvage our missions? Let us shoot you. From your standpoint, the ninja salvagers will continue to reap the millions in salvage instead of the mission runner. Someone is gonna get it...let us fight for it. Originally by: Decarus ...Thirdly, so when you dock in a station (which is a container with functions as far as I care) you own the station? THAT is the dumbest thing I have ever read. Who's making up arguments now? I will say it again for anyone who is actually reading the posts instead of just hitting reply after the OP... We know that it is working as CCP intended when they created it. But they being human beings like the rest of us don't always see where something will lead them. If something doesn't work, they fix it. They make changes along the way to make things work better and to effect "balance". This whole issue in our opinion is something that can be changed, possibly for the better. What would be better than to have to fight over salvage as we would most any other resource? Having read further into the thread, I would support the idea of flagging salvage rights for a specific time period. For the record...3mins or 30secs are far too short of a time period. Like it or not, not everyone runs L4 missions in a small, fast frigate. A battleship can take several minutes to close to within 20km. By that time, the ninja has already salvaged it. Teaming up and/or having a second account is not always an option. After the time period is over, the salvage to include the loot is up for grabs by anyone. Also, pilots with scanning equipment need to be able to specifically search for and warp to wrecks that have been left behind after mission completion. This alone could stop a lot of the ninja salvaging as lots of pilots to include few in my own corp, don't always bother with cleaning up. *Yes, I know this is a late response. I've been on the road without internet. On another note, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.... Am I correct in that Concord will not respond to aggression inside a deadspace area? If so, just shoot the bastard...fit a passive targeting mod. With any luck, he won't see it coming until his ship disintegrates from around him. Of course, make sure that you can afford the security hit and be ready to run if larger forces show up.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.31 09:39:00 - [317] Originally by: Mintoko Am I correct in that Concord will not respond to aggression inside a deadspace area? No. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.01.31 10:06:00 - [318] Edited by: Vaal Erit on 31/01/2009 10:07:02 Originally by: Mintoko But they being human beings like the rest of us don't always see where something will lead them. If something doesn't work, they fix it. They make changes along the way to make things work better and to effect "balance". This whole issue in our opinion is something that can be changed, possibly for the better. CCP is well aware of "salvage thieves" and have even replied in this very thread exactly what they think of them: working as intended. You can have any opinion that you would like, but you might as well be telling the sun to turn green, it just isn't going to happen - ever. If you think just because a few game mechanic inept players (this is you, dude, congrats) in high security space will alter the minds of CCP developers, then you are delusional. Originally by: Mintoko What would be better than to have to fight over salvage as we would most any other resource? Hi, mr. mission runner. Did you have to fight players to get your agent? How about fight players to be able to use the station? How about fight players to be able to redeem your LP? How many other players do you have to fight off when you are running a mission? Oh, ok. you don't have to fight over bleeding anything, but the evil "salvage thieves" have to receive all the punishment for CLEANING UP TRASH. You make a lot of sense . You live in CONCORD protected space. If you do not wish to live by their rules, then you can leave and find other places and enforce your own rules. What would be best is if you would stop whining and go back to wow. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Sagacious Z Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2009.01.31 20:54:00 - [319] Can't believe this thread is this long. CCP has it perfect regarding wreck ownership. Anybody who complains about somebody else salvaging their wreck does not belong in a multiplayer game. The game designers have the mechanics perfect on this issue because it encourages teamwork decision making mission planning ship fitting decisions time/reward calculations potential partnerships *potential fights and battles and enemies. What more could you possibly ask for? Thank you CCP for getting it perfect regarding ship wreck and salvaging rules.
Fighter awesome	Posted - 2009.02.01 19:48:00 - [320] Originally by: Ivana Kimyao usually i just blow up the wrecks b4 they get to them. you could use use a marauder, or an alt, or a friendly corp mate, to salvage while you do the mission. and what you win exactly by destroying them? being so cool?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:12:00 - [321] Originally by: Sagacious Z I get it! I really, really get it! He does. Really! Now, why can't Mission Runners understand?
TamiyaCowboy Caldari The White Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:01:00 - [322] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. Because CCP would rather ignore the point put across by people like you and myself. hide behind thier own reason and feed us plenty of pony and trap. so CCP tell us why is salvage a none hostile agro ? surely what comes from a ship is the owners, salvage is classed as loot correct? so why no agro from salvage looters. personaly ccp cant be bothered any more look at some of the NERF'S or so called fixes they already done !!!
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:04:00 - [323] WHY ARE YOU STILL **ING ARGUING WHEN DEV ALREADY ANSWERED PAGES AGO? i don't get it...really... you got your answer: wreck is no-man-land, you get no aggro, no ccp won't change it, yes it's difficult to change, no ccp won't change it. ----------------------------------------- Originally by:** Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:06:00 - [324] Originally by: TamiyaCowboy Because CCP would rather ignore the point put across by people like you and myself. hide behind thier own reason and feed us plenty of pony and trap. Read page one, genius. Originally by: TamiyaCowboy so CCP tell us why is salvage a none hostile agro? surely what comes from a ship is the owners, salvage is classed as loot correct? Wrong. Therein lies your first mistake. We're Recruiting!
TamiyaCowboy Caldari The White Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:14:00 - [325] go back too dodixe, i was not asking you, and for teh dev in first page. eve is a hostile game you want us too PVP, thats correct right ?, so why aint salvage looting a pvp punnishable offence many a time i would have loved too ****'s a looters arse but ohnoes ccp wont lets me, like you say EVE IS A HOSTLE GAME, salvage looting is eve on very easy mode or should i say more on par with WOW lol !! my rants over with
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:16:00 - [326] Originally by: TamiyaCowboy go back too dodixe, i was not asking you, and for teh dev in first page. eve is a hostile game you want us too PVP, thats correct right ?, so why aint salvage looting a pvp punnishable offence many a time i would have loved too **'s a looters arse but ohnoes ccp wont lets me, like you say EVE IS A HOSTLE GAME, salvage looting is eve on very easy mode or should i say more on par with WOW lol !! my rants over with Because a Dev said it, and Tchell is right (THERE, I SAID IT, I'LL WAIT FOR MY PAYMENT) ----------------------------------------- Originally by:** Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:33:00 - [327] Originally by: TamiyaCowboy go back too dodixe, i was not asking you, and for teh dev in first page. Excuse me, but as I am the resident expert on Ninja Salvaging, I am more than capable at addressing your lack of understanding in regards to what the Devs are talking about. You completely missed the point of EvE being "hostile". Since Mission Runners assume zero risk when playing vs. NPCs, the Devs of CCP are more than happy to inject the sinister element of PvP into the game via Ninja Salvagers and Looters. Now, if you don't mind, I'll just be going back to doing my job as the Emperor of Dodixie. (In the future, I would appreciate you addressing me as such, and showing me the respect I so rightly deserve.) Originally by: Concorduck Because a Dev said it, and Tchell is right (THERE, I SAID IT, I'LL WAIT FOR MY PAYMENT) ISK sent. We're Recruiting!
Jernau Riggs	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:47:00 - [328] Edited by: Jernau Riggs on 01/02/2009 23:47:08 Eve is just like real life, in real life there are people who have to clean the street gutters and the dog crap up, in eve its the ninja salvagers. I salute all the eve players who spend their time online cleaning up all the dog ****, personnally i have better things to do.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:59:00 - [329] Originally by: Jernau Riggs Eve is just like real life, in real life there are people who like to play with themselves and get fat eating Cheetos, in eve its the Mission Runners. I salute all the eve players who spend their time online playing with themselves, personnally i have better things to do. I fixed it for you. We're Recruiting!
Jernau Riggs	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:05:00 - [330] lol Tchell you are a **** cleaner upper?? Personally i can not think of anything more boring than mission running, I rat in 00, please feel free to try and salvage my wrecks
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:11:00 - [331] Originally by: TamiyaCowboy Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. Because CCP would rather ignore the point put across by people like you and myself. hide behind thier own reason and feed us plenty of pony and trap. so CCP tell us why is salvage a none hostile agro ? surely what comes from a ship is the owners, salvage is classed as loot correct? so why no agro from salvage looters. personaly ccp cant be bothered any more look at some of the NERF'S or so called fixes they already done !!! What 'fixes' do you think were in fact 'nerfs'? Missiles? The way polycarbons/overdrives/nanofibers/inertia stabilisers work? Webs? Here's a little clue (this one's free, the next one will cost you) All these things were changed back to how they used to be That's right new kid. It's back to old-school gameplay. Webs used to peak at 75% with the Fleeting. The T2 web simply didn't exist. Eventually people complained that they weren't slowing others down enough, so they demanded an increase to 90%. Then it was 'discovered' by these people that it was possible to reduce someone to less than 10m/s regardless of their ship speed imply by applying two webs onto the same target. Et voila, upon the introduction of the Rapier and Huginn, getting back to docking range on a station if you were unfortunate enough to get caught became, quite literally, impossible, in many cases. Polycarbons didn't exist way back when. In fact, a simple thing that was overlooked with their introduction was the lack of a proper stacking mechanism with regards to nanofibers and overdrives. You see, when stacking was introduced, it was meant to work on the principle that where any given module or ship attribute was being modified (by a percentage mind you, not an amount), an exponential curve to the effectiveness of each successive module would be applied. Eventually they were able to address the fact that polycarbons, auxiliary thrusters and low-friction nozzle joints weren't playing along with the rules and fixed them. At the same time, they also modified the bonuses of the various modules in combination so that while still worth using in certain scenarios, they were not so unbalanced as to cause major issues such as an interceptor becoming quite literally invulnerable to any single BS pilot, and having the ability to hold it in position for as long as necessary for his mates to come and kill the guy. (Unless said guy had the smarts to log off and hope he'd emergency safespot, that is) Now interceptors are simply back where they were in the old days. Still invaluable tools, but not near-invincible ones. Missiles' fix is also back to how they used to work. At some point it happened that there was no limit to how much effectiveness your missiles could lose based on the target's speed and signature. Now the penalties work a bit better, meaning that as long as your missiles can catch up to the target, there will be at least SOME damage inflicted. It just happens that, unfortunately for mission runners and ratters, NPCs tend to not use MWDs and prefer using ABs instead, meaning that their speed goes up but their signature radius doesn't - making it ever so difficult for the average mission runner to keep up with the harsh penalties inflicted on their missiles these days. But then, cruise missiles and torpedoes have little to no issue dealing with cruiser sized targets and up. It's just that they can't instagib destroyer and smaller targets as well as they used to and are forced to make use of drones now (which, you'd be surprised to know, a lot of mission runners didn't do). So tell me, exactly what's broken where? Please give some details. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:13:00 - [332] Originally by: Jernau Riggs I rat in 00, please feel free to try and salvage my wrecks I was down in Morsus Mihi space awhile ago doing just that in a blockade runner. It was lots of fun, but there weren't enough ratters to make it profitable where I went. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:19:00 - [333] Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: Jernau Riggs I rat in 00, please feel free to try and salvage my wrecks I was down in Morsus Mihi space awhile ago doing just that in a blockade runner. It was lots of fun, but there weren't enough ratters to make it profitable where I went. Morsus Teehee owns space? :O Which way? :\| --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:37:00 - [334] Originally by: Jernau Riggs Personally i can not think of anything more boring than mission running, I rat in 00, please feel free to try and salvage my wrecks I'll be sure to do that when you *post with your main.*
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:32:00 - [335] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Morsus Teehee owns space? :O Which way? :\| I went in through Taisy, and their name was on the sov ticker in the upper left-hand corner of my screen. As deep as I got, it stayed there. More than that, I dunno.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:46:00 - [336] Edited by: Mintoko on 02/02/2009 01:52:02 Originally by: Vaal Erit CCP is well aware of "salvage thieves" and have even replied in this very thread exactly what they think of them: working as intended. You apparently did not closely read what I said, so I will repeat it. WE ARE NOT SAYING THE GAME MECHANICS ARE FLAWED! WE KNOW THEY ARE WORKING AS ORIGINALLY INTENDED. We simply think it's too easy for you to come in and swipe salvage that we had every intention of cleaning up, while we contend with the NPCs. That's leeching. Go create your own wrecks. Some of you say that we're taking too long to run missions. What is too long anyway, 5, 10 minutes? Go do missions yourself and leave us alone. You can not only make money from the salvage (that is...if a ninja doesn't jump you), but you get bounties and the agent reward as well. YOU run a mission, YOU kill a ship and immediately salvage it while being pummeled by multiple targets. How long will you last? Don't give me this, "Oh...well....the salvager too has invested time and ISK by finding the site in the first place..." or "Check the definition of salvage..." or "The Dev said, the Dev said!" For those of you who like to toss out the definition of salvage as being abandoned or refused... it's not refused or abandoned if we are still in the area. I physically have to LEAVE in order for it to be abandoned. Originally by: Vaal Erit Did you have to fight players to get your agent? How about fight players to be able to use the station? How about fight players to be able to redeem your LP? That goes too far. Who in their right mind would consider agents, stations, & Loyalty points as resources on the same level as salvage? Originally by: Vaal Erit You live in CONCORD protected space. If you do not wish to live by their rules, then you can leave and find other places and enforce your own rules. You either had a parent tell you this recently or you dished it out to your own children. I have no idea of your age. Again, we have someone telling us to move to lowsec or 0.0? Since when are CONCORD and the Devs one and the same? Originally by: Vaal Erit What would be best is if you would stop whining and go back to wow. Don't make assumptions. I don't play WoW due to major suckage. One of these days, you're going to complain about something and someone will likely tell YOU to shut up and go back to WoW. It's obvious you've made up your mind and stood firm on your position, so go somewhere else and leave us alone. You're not going to convince us of anything.
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:56:00 - [337] Why won't this thread die?!?? /me drives a stakes in it's heart, drags it into the sun screaming and thrashing and then bombs it from orbit...just to be sure. ----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
Mintoko Gallente Nova Remnants	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:59:00 - [338] Edited by: Mintoko on 02/02/2009 02:00:10 Originally by: Rondo Gunn Why won't this thread die?!?? /me drives a stakes in it's heart, drags it into the sun screaming and thrashing and then bombs it from orbit...just to be sure. There have been larger threads. This one isn't even close.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:41:00 - [339] Originally by: Mintoko We simply think it's too easy for you to come in and swipe salvage that we had every intention of cleaning up, while we contend with the NPCs. That's leeching. Go create your own wrecks. Why would I want to play against NPC's, when I have more fun playing against other players? Originally by: Mintoko Go do missions yourself and leave us alone. Not an option. I don't run Missions, and I don't care to leave you alone. (Not you personally - don't flatter yourself. Those like you, however, are fair game. Originally by: Mintoko Don't give me this, "Oh...well....the salvager too has invested time and ISK by finding the site in the first place..." or "Check the definition of salvage..." or "The Dev said, the Dev said!" Why not? If a Mission Runner has the right to use their skills, why don't we? Originally by: Mintoko For those of you who like to toss out the definition of salvage as being abandoned or refused... it's not refused or abandoned if we are still in the area. I physically have to LEAVE in order for it to be abandoned. Well, guess what. You might be right. You may not have abandoned it, but if you're not fast enough, you're damn right I'm going to get to it first. If you haven't figured out how to defend it, then that's really not my fault. Originally by: Mintoko It's obvious you've made up your mind and stood firm on your position, so go somewhere else and leave us alone. You're not going to convince us of anything. Leave you alone? No thanks. I'm having too much of a good time filling my ship with your tears. As for convincing you, I'm not interested. I'm far more interested in bringing you to the brink of that spitting, swearing Mission Runner I know you are. Oh yeah, and that junk you left in that can. Yes, that stuff too. We're Recruiting!
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:00:00 - [340] Originally by: "Mintoko" That goes too far. Who in their right mind would consider agents, stations, & Loyalty points as resources on the same level as salvage? Well, actually, I for one consider them on the same level. Why should a lvl4 base-quality lvl20 Administration agent send me to go fetch his cigarettes he left in his Velator on the other side of the region, even making me pay a collateral incase I don't bring them back, and giving me a measly 350lp, 103k reward and 89k bonus for my efforts, while he's giving some other guy a Angel Blockade repeatedly; disregarding the fact that this guy's only able to run the mission because his daddy (read: main) was able to put in a good word (read: do fleet missions to help grind up standings faster) for him? Surely I worked harder, clawing my way up the ranks, spending days, if not weeks, to get to that agent? Surely I should be more worthy of the better missions? But no, I get the blue milk runs. I can't reject them because then the agent is going to very quickly take a keen disliking to my attitude, and may stop talking to me. I'd deal with this other pest, but unfortunately he happens to be in an NPC corp, so I'm not allowed to wardec him. What do I do? I go run missions in low-sec where I can forcibly remove the competition if I feel they are hurting my bottom line. Oh wait... Originally by: "Mintoko" Some of you say that we're taking too long to run missions. What is too long anyway, 5, 10 minutes? Go do missions yourself and leave us alone. You can not only make money from the salvage (that is...if a ninja doesn't jump you), but you get bounties and the agent reward as well. YOU run a mission, YOU kill a ship and immediately salvage it while being pummeled by multiple targets. How long will you last? Don't give me this, "Oh...well....the salvager too has invested time and ISK by finding the site in the first place..." or "Check the definition of salvage..." or "The Dev said, the Dev said!" One salvaging fitted ishtar. One logistics. One lvl4 Angel-Blockade-Or-Similar-Mission-Of-Which-I-Know-The-Spawn-And-Aggro-Mechanics-Of-Better-Than-The-Back-Of-My-Hand-Because-Like-Many-Mission-Running-Bears-I've-Done-It-Several-Dozen-Times-Already. One endless stream of ships blowing up with me right there on the wreck to loot and salvage it. You see, thing here is, it's just two people and things are magically ok. If you want extra tanking security you take it up to three people - two in logistics. If you want more efficiency, you put in another Ishtar for even more passive DPS and salvaging. But you see, all of these things require that you: a) learn to work with other people and get off your high wooden horse and realise that you are NOT alone in this game or b) suck it up and start running an alt account like so many other people do (they really are quite useful, seriously) or c) suck it up and realise that because you refuse to try a or b, you are attempting to do something that is, in fact, by design, not intended to be done 'efficiently' by a single person, and you are suffering as a direct result. lvl3 missions? Here's a clue: you can not only tank these extremely easily (again if you know what you're doing), but because the ships in these are so weak, you can run them quite nicely with as little as 200dps or so. What does this mean? You should have a lot of slots open to fit salvagers and tractors on your ship, not to mention be able to run an afterburner nonstop. But here's the icing on the cake: you don't use a battleship for the lvl3s. Again. The options exist. You simply refuse to make use of them. I will again say that I find it rather silly for NPC corpers to be able to avoid wardecs when they're 'stealing' salvage. I can, however, not see any feasible way to prevent 'salvage theft' from becoming a barring mechanic that deters people from exploring the salvage mini-profession when they start out in EVE. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:01:00 - [341] I'm beginning to wonder how many times I've sung the same song with the same melody, but different lyrics, in this single thread... Fortunately I never tire of this song. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Lyris Nairn Caldari Sexy Pirate Club	Posted - 2009.02.02 04:13:00 - [342] Originally by: Becq Starforged I think that in a game in which the devs and players constantly cite 'risk v. reward' as a design consideration, it's a shame that the dregs of the galaxy are have a protected right to zero-risk income generation. No other profession in the game -- including high-sec mining, where the miner is at risk from thieves and suicide gankers -- is protected in this way. Nobody (well, nobody reasonable, at least) is asking for the mechanics to be changed to prevent salvage theft. The problem is only that the salvage thieves are invulnerable to retaliation of any sort, since they do not generate an aggression flag like can thieves do (which is odd, since wrecks replaces loot cans which did generate such flags), and the salvage thieves are generally in NPC corps and are therefore un-wardec'able. If suicide ganking is a risk to high-security miners, how is it not a risk to ninja salvagers? Please tell me how the mission-runner is at less risk from the rats against which he is presumably tanked to minimize their damage than is the ninja salvager in his un-tanked salvage ship.
Lyris Nairn Caldari Sexy Pirate Club	Posted - 2009.02.02 04:15:00 - [343] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto It is impossible to "steal" salvage by design. It is waste that belongs to no one. You can't claim it any more than you could claim space dust. Could you please stop breathing? That's my air you're using.
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.02 05:13:00 - [344] Tl;dr for thread: "wahhh theys be stealin mah salvage" "CCP: it's not yours" "CCP is stupid, we know better than them" "durr where's the risk of salvage stealing??" "Where is the risk in mission running?" "... YOU LEECHES GO AWAY" This thread is the cancer that is killing EVE, we must burn it and ironically execute it's supporters by pulling them apart using the tractor beams of a ninja salvaging frigate.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 13:36:00 - [345] Originally by: Johli This thread is the cancer that is killing EVE, we must burn it and ironically execute it's supporters by pulling them apart using the tractor beams of a ninja salvaging frigate. Go back to /b... Oh, wait. You said Salvaging Frigate! OMG, this is one of the first times I've ever seen anyone acknowledge the fact that a Salvage Frigate trumps all other ship choices. +1 Internets to you, my friend.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:59:00 - [346] Originally by: Johli Tl;dr for thread: "wahhh theys be stealin mah salvage" "CCP: it's not yours" "CCP is stupid, we know better than them" "durr where's the risk of salvage stealing??" "Where is the risk in mission running?" "... YOU LEECHES GO AWAY" This thread is the cancer that is killing EVE, we must burn it and ironically execute it's supporters by pulling them apart using the tractor beams of a ninja salvaging frigate. Can't tractor wrecks that don't 'belong' to you because of mechanics to keep lag as low as possible. --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 16:15:00 - [347] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Can't tractor wrecks that don't 'belong' to you because of mechanics to keep lag as low as possible. Damn. I was about to come in here and say, "Anony, please no more postnoughts!" and here you go and post a nice, short response. Kudos.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.02.02 16:40:00 - [348] If I recall, that exact response of mine is also the reason we went to war ;P I still maintain that not all of your members are as nooby as you :3
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:53:00 - [349] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Originally by: Johli Tl;dr for thread: "wahhh theys be stealin mah salvage" "CCP: it's not yours" "CCP is stupid, we know better than them" "durr where's the risk of salvage stealing??" "Where is the risk in mission running?" "... YOU LEECHES GO AWAY" This thread is the cancer that is killing EVE, we must burn it and ironically execute it's supporters by pulling them apart using the tractor beams of a ninja salvaging frigate. Can't tractor wrecks that don't 'belong' to you because of mechanics to keep lag as low as possible. You're a wreck?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:32:00 - [350] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja I still maintain that not all of your members are as nooby as you :3 Ahem.
Turin Caldari Eternity INC.	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:20:00 - [351] Originally by: Solomon Weyland Just blow up any wrecks they go for, all of them if necessary. Its the simple solution. You will still get the money from bounties and the mission reward itself. All they will get is wasted time and probes. This is pretty much how I deal with it as well. Then I call them nasty names in local.
AnonyTerrorNinja Minmatar Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport	Posted - 2009.02.04 14:58:00 - [352] What the hell - no response in two days!? Blasphemy. Let's keep this thread way up there where all the people that WANT to cry about ninja salvaging can cry in ONE thread instead of create a new one because they were too lazy to look three pages deep (or use the search function). --- Incognito - Fierce - Deadly - IFD (Intergallactic Federation of Dummies) aka ATN Ikari Dimji > I mustn't run away... I MUSTN'T RUN AWAY... I MUSTN'T RUN AWA- ooh, skittles! :D
Schalac Caldari Apocalypse Reign	Posted - 2009.02.04 15:05:00 - [353] Please for the love of all that is holy and sacred stop posting in this thread. And just so anyone else that comes here knows. Noob makes thread, people reply, CCP says their piece, noob doesn't like it and generally thinks it us a bad idea, EVE erupts, noob is silenced...THE END. count down to 90 days starts now SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN
Casiella Truza White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.02.17 19:39:00 - [354] Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja Edited by: AnonyTerrorNinja on 04/02/2009 15:23:40 What the hell - no response in two days!? Blasphemy. Let's keep this thread way up there where all the people that WANT to cry about ninja salvaging can cry in ONE thread instead of create a new one because they were too lazy to look three pages deep (or use the search function). Right on. Personally, whenever I think I can get away with it, I steal the loot, too. Because frankly, salvaging as a mini-profession doesn't pay nearly as well as some mission runners seem to think it does, mostly because of the time it takes to find a good set of wrecks. So I do introduce risk into the equation, but I manage the risk. If you don't want me to salvage your wrecks, get into a Marauder. Generally speaking, I can't keep up with them due to their innate bonuses (though I do have fun trying). Though I did have fun the other day with a particularly rude mission runner. -- IC Twitter
Monikerina	Posted - 2009.02.17 20:11:00 - [355] Becuase the devs say so?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.17 20:51:00 - [356] Originally by: Monikerina Becuase the devs say so? No, because you Mission Runners make it too damn easy to do so. Learn your job, and our job wouldn't be as easy as it is. We're Recruiting!
Tybalt Usra	Posted - 2009.02.17 21:33:00 - [357] Seriously it is pretty ****ing simple to work out why CCP allow salvage theft. You are in nigh on perfect safety generating your isk. CCP add salvaging to the game and now you are generating even more isk, the trade off is that now other people can tap a small % of this isk. You ungratefull carebears should be thankfull you get any at all. The self entitlement in this thread is staggering. You are all looking a gift horse in the mouth, if you want that salvage then bring a corpmate and get to it first. If your solo get a marauder and do it as you go. Strewth you guys deserve every second of grief you get.
Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2009.02.17 21:44:00 - [358] Its easy to prevent. Shoot the wrecks if you dont want them to have or move away from a mission hub.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:24:00 - [359] I am a serious professional mission runner (SPMR) as well as a ninja salvager. As a SPMR, I know that anyone who knows what he's doing does missions in lowsec, does them quickly without relying on drones, and knows how to stay alert and protect himself. These mission-running amateurs you find in highsec are sloppy and an offense to the profession. My goal is not to steal their salvage but to destroy them. As such, I will continue baiting them to shoot me and then warping back with a battleship to kill them. Both are actions they should be smart enough to prevent me from doing. In other words, I am assisting Darwin by culling the weak. This leads to their betterment as human beings, and perhaps helps some of them become SPMRs in time. ........... The Fighting Republicans are recruiting!
Ron Bacardi SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.02.17 22:39:00 - [360] Damn it, I have an alt doing nothing but training right now but already has salvaging and probing trained to 4. Why didnt i think of this earlier? Thanks for the ideas guys!!!1! Set destination: Motsu
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:06:00 - [361] Originally by: Ron Bacardi Damn it, I have an alt doing nothing but training right now but already has salvaging and probing trained to 4. Why didnt i think of this earlier? Thanks for the ideas guys!!!1! Set destination: Motsu Forget Motsu. The best salvage is in Amarr space, second best in Minmatar space. I suggest the Sasoutikh or Lustrevik systems. ........... The Fighting Republicans are recruiting!
Ron Bacardi SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:10:00 - [362] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Ron Bacardi Damn it, I have an alt doing nothing but training right now but already has salvaging and probing trained to 4. Why didnt i think of this earlier? Thanks for the ideas guys!!!1! Set destination: Motsu Forget Motsu. The best salvage is in Amarr space, second best in Minmatar space. I suggest the Sasoutikh or Lustrevik systems. Solid, thanks for the tips dude!
Irida Mershkov Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:11:00 - [363] Originally by: Casiella Truza particularly rude mission runner.
Morsus Argent	Posted - 2009.02.17 23:15:00 - [364] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker In other words, I am assisting Darwin by culling the weak. This is one of the most stupid things said in this entire thread, and that's saying something.
Stinky McPoopyPants Minmatar Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.18 00:39:00 - [365] Can you tell me again why you think its a bad thing? The batteries in your new TI-X30 calculator are capable of recharging by themselves. Do not attempt to replace them. Most importantly, how are you supposed to tell whether this is part of my post or
Epegi Givo Amarr Demon Theory UNLeashed Legion	Posted - 2009.02.18 02:16:00 - [366] I actually think making salvage flaggable is a good idea, because you are taking something quite valuable without much of a risk, even less of a risk than that of the mission-runner. Present me with an argument against this and I will happily defeat it for you. ------------------------------------- My other alt is a Ferrari
Madman Murry	Posted - 2009.02.18 02:27:00 - [367] Stolen from public domain sources. Marine salvage is the process of rescuing a ship, its cargo, or other property from peril. Salvage encompasses rescue towing, refloating a sunken or grounded vessel, or patching or repairing a ship. Today the protection of the environment from cargoes such as oil or other contaminants is often considered a high priority. "Salvors" are seamen and engineers who carry out salvage to vessels that are not owned by themselves. When salvaging large ships, they may use cranes, floating dry docks and divers to lift and repair ships for short journeys to safety towed by a tugboat. The aim of the salvage may be to repair the vessel at a harbour or dry dock, or to clear a channel for navigation. Another reason for salvage may be to prevent pollution or damage to the marine environment. Alternatively the vessel or valuable parts of the vessel or its cargo may be recovered for its resale value, or for scrap. My point being, "Salvage" is owned by no one. Which is why it's called salvage. I agree that it's sucks to be robbed, but that is the nature of salvage.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.18 14:01:00 - [368] Originally by: Epegi Givo Present me with an argument against this and I will happily defeat it for you. You first. Don't you know who I am? We're Recruiting!
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.02.18 14:21:00 - [369] Originally by: Epegi Givo I actually think making salvage flaggable is a good idea, because you are taking something quite valuable without much of a risk, even less of a risk than that of the mission-runner. Start with defeating these: 1. Nothing is taken — it's created the same was activating a mining laser on an asteroid (unless we should start flagging people for mining). 2. The risk is about the same as for mission runners (should we flag them too?) 3. Even if the risk is lower for salvaging, the effort is higher (so the entitlement is the same for both parties). 4. Ask miners if the introduction of can-flipping was a good idea. 5. If it's that valuable, why don't mission runners take care to collect it as soon as possible? 6. Salvaging is a legal and legitimate profession, the same as mission-running and trading (should we flag those two? MkII) ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.18 14:32:00 - [370] Here's a clue. If you blow up another players ship, do you own the loot in the wreck or the wreck? No, if you loot it, you refresh the aggression flag cause you stole from that person. With NPC rats, CCP decided to give into the carebear whines, and they let the killer, and not the killed, own the loot. It should, in fact, belong to the NPC rat that got killed, and re-aggro your flag towards the NPC corp (not that it matters anyways, but still). Salvage is different. Wrecks are free-for-all to salvage if they come across it, and if they have the tools (a salvager) to take it. Salvage is a nice way for new players to make some isk, and I encourage new players to train probing skills just so they can find mission runners and salvage the wrecks. This is a good way for the new players to get some isk, and a good way to get a glimpse into the missions the "big boys" are doing. Then you have the carebears who start moaning about owning the wrecks on top of the loot. First CCP lets you have the loot, and now you want the salvage to belong to you as well? Greedy carebears. Why do I salvage wrecks in missions? The truth? Because I love how angry some carebears get. I don't need the salvage, in fact, compared to just running my own L4's I'm losing money by probing and salvaging other people's missions. But I get the carebear tears, and I love it. Sorry, but the more you whine, the more fun it is. You want whoever salvages "your" wrecks to be flagged so you can shoot them. Hey, please add this to the game. Instead of people flying around flipping jet-cans, people will fly around and salvage your wrecks, for the sole purpose of making you shoot them so they can blow up your pretty mission boat. Do you think it would be the slightest bit less frustrating to do missions when you have people flying around you flashing red while you are engaged with rats? But, I rather vote for this, to keep the balance between easy-mode carebear farming in high sec and keeping EVE a dangerous place. If a person is doing missions in low-sec, the salvage will belong to whoever killed the rat. In high-sec the salvage remains free for all. This way, if you really want that extra loot to belong to you, then you take a bit of a risk with your freebie-isk-grinding. Freaking easymode carebears farming missions in high-sec and demanding even more stuff to belong to them as default is the very essence of the problem in EVE in regards to turning it into Hello! Kitty Online. Less padding for carebears and more risk involved with earning more isk. Heck, that could even be a slogan: "More risk is more isk!" Even rhymes. -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"
Mephesto Nizal	Posted - 2009.02.18 15:26:00 - [371] Leave the junkers alone, thats what salvagers are.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.02.18 16:16:00 - [372] Originally by: Morsus Argent Originally by: Joe Starbreaker In other words, I am assisting Darwin by culling the weak. This is one of the most stupid things said in this entire thread, and that's saying something. I agree, Darwin is a load of bunk. I was just using a common pop-culture reference. ........... The Fighting Republicans are recruiting!
Morsus Argent	Posted - 2009.02.18 18:22:00 - [373] Originally by: Misina Arlath Why do I salvage wrecks in missions? The truth? Because I love how angry some carebears get. I don't need the salvage, in fact, compared to just running my own L4's I'm losing money by probing and salvaging other people's missions. But I get the carebear tears, and I love it. Sorry, but the more you whine, the more fun it is. I'm just quoting this because it's amusing. But probably not in the way intended. Originally by: Misina Arlath You want whoever salvages "your" wrecks to be flagged so you can shoot them. Hey, please add this to the game. Instead of people flying around flipping jet-cans, people will fly around and salvage your wrecks, for the sole purpose of making you shoot them so they can blow up your pretty mission boat. Maybe you should switch your brain on before typing. If those people really wanted to do that, they already could by taking the loot. Funnily enough, that doesn't seem to happen much, despite all the talk in threads like this from 'ninja' salvagers saying they'd love it if salvaging flagged and they got attacked, because of course they really want a fight, which is why they (mostly)... don't take the loot... It can only be concluded that 'ninja' salvagers are, for the most part, idiots, wusses, or both.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.02.19 06:03:00 - [374] Confirming that I take the loot. ........... The Fighting Republicans are recruiting!
Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.19 07:31:00 - [375] Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Originally by: Solomon Weyland Just blow up any wrecks they go for, all of them if necessary. Its the simple solution. You will still get the money from bounties and the mission reward itself. All they will get is wasted time and probes. This only encourages those who do it for the grief caused rather than the ISK gained. we love both my friend well mannered ah*
Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.19 07:36:00 - [376] Originally by: St3v3sancho All this talk of people going to court and who owns what items is such garbage. It's a GAME. lol. truest post of the thread well mannered ah*
Insa Rexion Minmatar M3T4LH34DZ	Posted - 2009.02.19 07:41:00 - [377] Originally by: Belmarduk Originally by: Chruker Why the hell is the loot protected by the aggression system when the salvage isnt? That doesnt make any f..... sense This I STILL feel that the salvage from MY Mission belongs to me - ever since salvage was introduced.Period Ninja-Salvagers are hiding behind the aggression system.Period Make it so that EVERYTHING is freely lootable or that EVERYTHING is not.Period If someone takes my salvage in highsec I want to be able to kill him.Period Oh my....you are so tetchy, do you have your. Period ? well mannered ah*
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:49:00 - [378] Originally by: Morsus Argent It can only be concluded that 'ninja' salvagers are, for the most part, idiots, wusses, or both. Coming from an Alt who's afraid to post with their Main, or open up their Corp/Alliance to wardec (NPC Alt, anyone?) your words mean nothing. And you can ask my 100+ Corpmates why they choose to be in a Corporation and not hiding out. It can only be concluded that you, my sad little friend, are pathetic. We're Recruiting!
Morsus Argent	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:09:00 - [379] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Coming from an Alt who's afraid to post with their Main, or open up their Corp/Alliance to wardec (NPC Alt, anyone?) your words mean nothing. And you can ask my 100+ Corpmates why they choose to be in a Corporation and not hiding out. It can only be concluded that you, my sad little friend, are pathetic. Touch a nerve did I? And are you saying you actually would issue a wardec over a forum post? Because if you wouldn't, then you have no point, and if you would, then it would seem entirely sensible to post with an alt to avoid the hassle of idiots who'd declare war over a forum post. And regardless, the reasoning of my post stands by itself. It makes no difference who says it, it's still true. It's always quite revealing to see who attacks the poster instead of the post though...
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:59:00 - [380] Originally by: Morsus Argent I'm hiding in an NPC Corp, and pretending to play with the "Big Boys" who actually get EvE. Shhhhhh! I've seen your kind before. You're a troll, and I'll pay you no further mind. If you ever do become relevant, let me know. We're Recruiting!

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:06:00 - [381] I have created a monster.. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:33:00 - [382] Originally by: CCP Prism X I have created a monster.. ...and her name is Tchell Dahhn. Empress of Dodixie, Master of the Threadnought. I am to Ninja Salvaging what Chribba is to Mining. And for that, New Eden thanks you! We're Recruiting!
Caldari Citizen4714	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:38:00 - [383] Originally by: Irida Mershkov Originally by: Casiella Truza particularly rude mission runner. Taking mission objectives is petitionable and more importantly, bannable.
Morsus Argent	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:43:00 - [384] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn I've seen your kind before. You're a troll, and I'll pay you no further mind. If you ever do become relevant, let me know. Yeah, not exactly countering my point about people who attack posters instead of posts, are you? If I was wrong, you could simply point out the flaw in my reasoning. And yet, you don't. Odd that. And seriously, doesn't all that cognitive dissonance give you a headache?
Cikulisuy Amarr Damage Incorporated.	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:47:00 - [385] because its not stealing nub> you cant mine so you kill.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:56:00 - [386] Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Taking mission objectives is petitionable and more importantly, bannable. Sorry, but that's not true. Certainly, you can petition it, but you won't get anywhere with that. An enterprising Mod might 'give' you the Mission Item (which is wrong) or they might reset your Mission for you (also wrong), but more likely than not, they'll tell you to either turn in the Mission incomplete, or else, wait for it to reset on its own after downtime. And it's also not a bannable offense. Mods have stated that purposefully griefing Players in a Starter System is a no-no, but even then, I don't believe Mods are outwardly banning accounts without a stern warning ahead of time. We're Recruiting!
T3 Alt Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:57:00 - [387] Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Originally by: Irida Mershkov Originally by: Casiella Truza particularly rude mission runner. Taking mission objectives is petitionable and more importantly, bannable. Sure it is!
Casiella Truza White Rose Society	Posted - 2009.02.19 17:07:00 - [388] Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Originally by: Irida Mershkov Originally by: Casiella Truza particularly rude mission runner. Taking mission objectives is petitionable and more importantly, bannable. Either way, he got it back the next day and (I assume) turned in his mission.
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.19 17:39:00 - [389] Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Originally by: Irida Mershkov Originally by: Casiella Truza particularly rude mission runner. Taking mission objectives is petitionable and more importantly, bannable. LOL. Where'd you make up that rule? Anyways, empire carebears don't need to be coddled any more then they already are. Did you know there was a time when cans weren't even flagged for a particular owner? Yes. Amazing isn't it?
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.02.19 18:57:00 - [390] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Coming from an Alt who's afraid to post with their Main, or open up their Corp/Alliance to wardec (NPC Alt, anyone?) your words mean nothing. And you can ask my 100+ Corpmates why they choose to be in a Corporation and not hiding out. It can only be concluded that you, my sad little friend, are pathetic. To be fair, Tchell, you do hide behind the 50-million-ISK war declaration fee by joining an alliance even though you're almost a solo corp. ........... The Fighting Republicans are recruiting!
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 20:14:00 - [391] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker To be fair, Tchell, you do hide behind the 50-million-ISK war declaration fee by joining an alliance even though you're almost a solo corp. No, that would be me, in Ironfleet, which is almost a solo corp. And I'll freely admit that joining TEARS has cut way down on the pointless rage-wardecs -- a not-inconsiderable benefit of joining up. To be honest, there are at least half a dozen Ninjas I see more often than Tchell in TEARS alliance chat. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 20:17:00 - [392] Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Originally by: CCP Prism X I have created a monster.. ...and her name is Tchell Dahhn. Empress of Dodixie, Master of the Threadnought. I am to Ninja Salvaging what Chribba is to Mining. Hey, Tchell, that reminds me, don't you think that before the game gets to enjoy Tchell Dahhn's +2 Salvager Of Sweetness, Chribba should get his Chribba's Modified Capital Strip Miner IIs? ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.02.19 21:54:00 - [393] I meant that TEARS is almost a corp acting alone, except for a few stringers-on like Ironfleet and the inconsequential Starbreaker Frigateers... the only real benefit of an alliance being the possibility of a logo (which you haven't gotten) and the protection from war-declarations. ........... The Fighting Republicans are recruiting!
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.02.19 22:19:00 - [394] You know there was a time i would have leapt on this thread like a rabid stoat on Peter Rabbit.... [i] FOR PONY
Constable Chang Amarr Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 23:20:00 - [395] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Coming from an Alt who's afraid to post with their Main, or open up their Corp/Alliance to wardec (NPC Alt, anyone?) your words mean nothing. And you can ask my 100+ Corpmates why they choose to be in a Corporation and not hiding out. It can only be concluded that you, my sad little friend, are pathetic. To be fair, Tchell, you do hide behind the 50-million-ISK war declaration fee by joining an alliance even though you're almost a solo corp. Ok well I thought I'd pop up out of the woodwork and take offense at this. I've played Eve online for nearly a year on and off, more off than on. Its taken me a while to see what Eve is really all about and reading threads like this one and being in SN has really helped shape my view of the game and shape that view positively. In this game you make your own fun. It isn't all layed on for you as it is in some other MMOs which, due to their insufferable vileness will go unnamed. You make your own fun and you work around or with the way that others make their fun. Some people seem to think that this game is ABOUT running missions. Well it isn't. Eve isn't safe anywhere, not in 0.0 not in lowsec and not in empire space. Your missions aren't safe. Your mining isn't safe. Nothing is safe. Thats why we play this game instead of Hello Kitty island adventure. At first, thats why I quit playing Eve (because its not safe, not because I preferred Hello Kitty island adventure. Which I have never played). But I kept on reading the forums and discovering corps like Suddenly Ninjas gave me an epiphany and brought me back into the game. And anyone who thinks that the game should be about mission running should, instead, go play an MMO which is about running quests.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 23:22:00 - [396] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker I meant that TEARS is almost a corp acting alone, except for a few stringers-on like Ironfleet and the inconsequential Starbreaker Frigateers... the only real benefit of an alliance being the possibility of a logo (which you haven't gotten) and the protection from war-declarations. Ah, misunderstood you -- I thought you were saying the Ninjas were a one-man corp, the way Ironfleet often (but not quite always) seems to be. Originally by: RedSplat You know there was a time i would have leapt on this thread like a rabid stoat on Peter Rabbit.... LOL, nice image! But, yeah -- I lost my taste for these threads after the first sixty times or so. Pretty much any time I see the phrase "salvage thief" or "salvage theft" I know I'm dealing with somebody who just fundamentally does not understand the concept of salvage, or theft for that matter; and these people who do not get it at the beginning of the thread are still not going to get it at the end of the thread. So, mostly these days I just drop my GM quotebomb into these threads for the education of any innocent bystanders, and move on. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.19 23:41:00 - [397] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker To be fair, Tchell, you do hide behind the 50-million-ISK war declaration fee by joining an alliance even though you're almost a solo corp. Yes, because the 1B ISK I dropped to create the Alliance was just to go hiding out from our War Targets. You're still a Member of our Forums, Joe. Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with why, exactly, I created TEARS. It's certainly not to hide from our War Targets. If anything, we've opened our Member Corporations up to wardecs from larger Corporations - ones that recognize the value of bringing the fight when they wardec us. And as you're aware, we're also spending the ISK to declare our own wars, so it's certainly not because we're afraid of anything. We're Recruiting!
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.02.20 07:42:00 - [398] I suppose I should clarify my earlier post by saying that Ironfleet enjoys many benefits from its association with TEARS, including not only the aforementioned protection from nuisance war decs, but also the enjoyment provided by real wars, as well as the not-inconsiderable pleasure that results from association with such a merry crew of like-minded hooligans and ne'er-do-wells. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Natalinnux Caldari RaVeN Alliance RaVeN Federation	Posted - 2009.05.17 18:20:00 - [399] Originally by: Abrazzar It is ok because you already got rewarded for doing the mission (ISK, LPs, Standing) and for creating the wrecks (Bounty, Loot Rights) and the salvager is investing the same amount of time for salvaging as you would, plus an investment in time and ISK to even find any location worth salvaging. Considering that you are guaranteed to know the whereabouts of sizable amounts of wrecks you are already in an advantage over the freelance salvager. Consider yourself lucky. That's why I love to turn to my alt or just go AFK while the little ninja-salvager is waiting for that 100isk charred micro circuit
Jobby Minmatar UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.05.17 19:09:00 - [400] Necro 4tl
Hariya	Posted - 2009.05.17 20:36:00 - [401] Stealing is always ok, and even desirable.
Benzaiten Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2009.05.17 20:44:00 - [402] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 13/01/2009 16:33:58 i take any salvage thats available, noob ships at gates, battlecruisers at stations, crap in complexs, its just litter as far as i'm concerned waiting to be cleared, but finding mission locations is like work, no way dude. If you wanted the salvage that badly why didn't you fit a salvager to a top slot and salvage whilst you kill the next one, also don't do missison in busy locations if you want to avoid being probed down. forgot the don't lol If you are so smart, then tell us how to salvage stuff 50-100km from you. In time you reach 1st wreck you usually have 10+ more wrecks there. I dont mind if someone salvage stuff when i am not there, but when someone doing it right under my nose it really makes me mad that i cannot just blast him out of sky without being concorded.
Misanth The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.05.17 21:38:00 - [403] Originally by: Jobby Necro 4tl - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.05.17 21:40:00 - [404] These are the threads that never end You can post in them again and again Some people started whining not knowing how it works Some people started replying telling them that they're dorks
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.17 21:50:00 - [405] Quote: If you are so smart, then tell us how to salvage stuff 50-100km from you. Depends. Those are almost always BS wrecks, in which case it's worth the 30 seconds of travel time. Will be even easier once MWD use is permitted in missions.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.05.18 07:51:00 - [406] While the OP is silly, the idea that NPC corp members doing certain things that make them attackable, the ones that are normally solved by dec'ing PC corps, is an interesting idea. I can't think of any specific examples now, but it could solve that whole hiding in an NPC corp thing. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.05.18 08:01:00 - [407] Originally by: Rainson Arrvax I spend over an hour on a mission and then have some ass steal half the salvage. Of course...the jerkoff is in an NPC corp so I have no recourse. Simple solution: If you're in an NPC corp taking salvage makes you attackable. If you're not then it doesn't. At least then I can wardeck you. simple answer: this is not eve offline, its eve online. learn to deal with other players interaction.
Reven Cordelle Caldari Yamainu-Mirai Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.05.18 08:07:00 - [408] Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 18/05/2009 08:06:55 Its okay to steal salvage because people love it when you cry about it so much. In short - Salvage is generated upon access, its not there if you don't access it. Therefore, unless you've accessed it first (IE Salvaged it) then it isn't yours. Pretty simple. Probably been said about 50 times in this thread. Its pretty much the same as saying someones stealing your ore from an asteroid belt. You don't own that belt - and the ore requires a player process to obtain.

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