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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 10 post(s)
Janus Ovellian Minmatar Calpolli Namtz' aar K'in	Posted - 2009.03.09 02:15:00 - [391] Originally by: MotherMoon other than the loki having 320 cpu ... :( Worth noting that 2 of the minmatar defensive systems have additional cpu (50 and 90). And the third has additional pg (150). Similarly two of the caldari offensive modules have additional cpu (33 each), the third extra pg (350). Interesting times await...
Ferria Caldari FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.03.09 03:56:00 - [392] If you've been on Sisi today you will have noticed that things got changed today again, and is only partially seeded. I ended up with no drone bay on a galentee ship. odd
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 04:17:00 - [393] Originally by: Janus Ovellian Originally by: MotherMoon other than the loki having 320 cpu ... :( Worth noting that 2 of the minmatar defensive systems have additional cpu (50 and 90). And the third has additional pg (150). Similarly two of the caldari offensive modules have additional cpu (33 each), the third extra pg (350). ah must be new then :)
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.09 07:47:00 - [394] Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 09/03/2009 07:48:53 Check Gallente or Caldari, they get 3 offensive bonuses as well. Actually, Gallente have it nuts, "7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage, 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret rate of fire, 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level". That's over 1k gun DPS with Neutrons and 2 MFS at Subsystem lvl 5 That said, Caldari don't lag far behind, with Rage Terror Tengu will easily break 1k dps mark too.
Carniflex Caldari Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.09 08:20:00 - [395] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 09/03/2009 07:48:53 Check Gallente or Caldari, they get 3 offensive bonuses as well. Actually, Gallente have it nuts, "7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage, 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret rate of fire, 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level". That's over 1k gun DPS with Neutrons and 2 MFS at Subsystem lvl 5 That said, Caldari don't lag far behind, with Rage Terror Tengu will easily break 1k dps mark too. Sounds good. Have to take a look. Who needs Golem for mission running if you can use Tengu afterall. Assuming it could get reliably 1000+ dps from cruiser sized weapons.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.09 08:43:00 - [396] Originally by: Carniflex Sounds good. Have to take a look. Who needs Golem for mission running if you can use Tengu afterall. Assuming it could get reliably 1000+ dps from cruiser sized weapons. Hm, guess I should apologise for misinformation Forgot that Tengu would have 6 launchers now, so that 1k DPS figure is considerably harder to reach. 3 faction BCS, Rage Terrors and close-to-max skills would make it though; now I'm not sure if HAMs are best tool for PvE, since I'm not doing it, but... PvP-wise it's pretty funny, even if we down the number to like 900 DPS... (oh, that's with flight of lights included) Proteus fitted for passive armor tank should be able to fit 6 Neutrons with 3xMFS, it comes to like 1150 DPS from guns alone With drones it will probably outgank Mega on most targets
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 09:06:00 - [397] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 09/03/2009 07:48:53 Check Gallente or Caldari, they get 3 offensive bonuses as well. Actually, Gallente have it nuts, "7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage, 7.5% bonus to medium hybrid turret rate of fire, 10% bonus to medium hybrid turret falloff per level". That's over 1k gun DPS with Neutrons and 2 MFS at Subsystem lvl 5 That said, Caldari don't lag far behind, with Rage Terror Tengu will easily break 1k dps mark too. wait... then why do minmatar get so shafted? :( is nozh balancing the bonuses as if minmatar have the highest dps base turrets in the game or what?
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.09 09:15:00 - [398] Minmatar was king of the hill the past two years, now the cycle moves on and minmatar fades to worst race (again) so every nano***got must train another race. Wait 1-2 Years and Minmatar will shine again. Or learn your raxes strength properly and make the best out of it... like ... everyone else.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.09 09:21:00 - [399] Originally by: MotherMoon wait... then why do minmatar get so shafted? :( is nozh balancing the bonuses as if minmatar have the highest dps base turrets in the game or what? Well, I've not tested Loki, it's too fugly for me. But if it's fine then who cares how many bonuses it has? Alas, if it's not fine, it's not about number of bonuses either.
Carniflex Caldari Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.09 09:37:00 - [400] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: Carniflex Sounds good. Have to take a look. Who needs Golem for mission running if you can use Tengu afterall. Assuming it could get reliably 1000+ dps from cruiser sized weapons. Hm, guess I should apologise for misinformation Forgot that Tengu would have 6 launchers now, so that 1k DPS figure is considerably harder to reach. 3 faction BCS, Rage Terrors and close-to-max skills would make it though; now I'm not sure if HAMs are best tool for PvE, since I'm not doing it, but... PvP-wise it's pretty funny, even if we down the number to like 900 DPS... (oh, that's with flight of lights included) Proteus fitted for passive armor tank should be able to fit 6 Neutrons with 3xMFS, it comes to like 1150 DPS from guns alone With drones it will probably outgank Mega on most targets Considering that last time I looked most sensible midsection for mission running was the one granting afterburner bonuses HAM's might work ok for missionrunning. Tengu can do quite reliably around 500 m/s on afterburner even when not fitted extra for speed (or was able to do few days ago, not sure about current iteration). Dunno about 1000 dps tho, Might be a fit far fetched even for HAM's. However if it was possible with 7 launchers without taking into account proper hardiwres it should be possible with 6 launchers with proper hardwires (5% RoF and 5% damage add up for roughly same effect as 7th launcher without those would). Will try to take a look myself after SiSi comes up again.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 10:02:00 - [401] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Originally by: MotherMoon wait... then why do minmatar get so shafted? :( is nozh balancing the bonuses as if minmatar have the highest dps base turrets in the game or what? Well, I've not tested Loki, it's too fugly for me. But if it's fine then who cares how many bonuses it has? Alas, if it's not fine, it's not about number of bonuses either. it's not about the bonuses? bonuses are the only real thing that seperate ships aside form base stats and skills. there is a BIG different between minmatar getting 7.5% rof per level and 10% falloff bonus per level. and gallente getting 7.5% rof per level , 10% falloff bonus per level , and 7.5% damage per level. If you don't see how this is better than the minmatar bonus, or doesn't make a real different in combat, your a damned fool.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.09 10:22:00 - [402] Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 09/03/2009 10:22:59 You don't have much of a clue, do you? I never said Loki was fine, and I actually stated I've not tested it even. As far as bonuses go, you could have one ship with 4 turrets with rof and dmg bonuses and you could have a ship with 5 turrets and just rof bonus, go figure. They'd be pretty much the same in many regards. If Gallente will have 5 turrets in most fits, while Minnie would get 7 turrets then the bonuses would be quite okay. If that's not the case then it should be looked into obviously. But just wailing about how you get less bonuses, hence your ship sucks is not very smart. Btw, new build dumbed down T3 options quite a bit. AB bonus system got nerfed from 20% pl to 10% pl, MWD sig reduction 15%->5% pl; Electronic subsystems with scanres and sig reduction had their sig reduction part cut away =\ Overall sig also got increased, etc. They really look like the only viable way would be to fit them in gank/tank ways @Carniflex - I was talking with hardwirings counted in already :)
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 11:07:00 - [403] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 09/03/2009 10:22:59 You don't have much of a clue, do you? I never said Loki was fine, and I actually stated I've not tested it even. As far as bonuses go, you could have one ship with 4 turrets with rof and dmg bonuses and you could have a ship with 5 turrets and just rof bonus, go figure. They'd be pretty much the same in many regards. If Gallente will have 5 turrets in most fits, while Minnie would get 7 turrets then the bonuses would be quite okay. If that's not the case then it should be looked into obviously. But just wailing about how you get less bonuses, hence your ship sucks is not very smart. 1st of all I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. ok, I never said you said the loki was good or bad I was only talking about about what you said that bonuses aren't everything. on tech 3, only one type of loki can get 7 turrets and you give up a lot for that. normally you'll have just 5 with that bonus. SO that doesn't excuse the huge difference in bonuses. I was only arguing that bonuses are more important than you were stating. that's all :)
Lijhal FrEE d00M Fighters	Posted - 2009.03.09 11:28:00 - [404] confirming that all t3 bonuses should be equal!! do it ccp, do it
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 12:35:00 - [405] Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/03/2009 12:38:08 Allright ccp, here is my idea for the loki subsystems. seeing as you can only get 6 turrets on it now TOPS. you don't have to use them at all, but think about it. COMBAT subsystem 1: 12.5% bonus to turret damage per level/10% Optimal range per level/12.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness per level subsystem 2: 7.5% bonus to turret RoF per level/10% falloff per level/10% bonus to tracking per level subsystem 3: 7.5% bonus to turret rof per level/7.5% bonus to missle rof per level/10% reduction in drone sig radius per level now you have a sniping set up artillery set up with painters A close up autocannon gank fit with tracking bonus And a split weapon system ship with faster drones/harder to kill drones see fair bonuses, that make each system more useful. or subsystem 1: 20% bonus to turret damage per level/10% bonus to optimal range per level hell or this! subsystem 1: Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed and 12.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage per level Penalty: -30% Rate Of Fire for all turrets Bonus: 10% bonus to optimal range for projectile turrets per level sound familiar? it should http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Thrasher This would make the loki a cruiser alpha turret boat, while still giving less dps than the galanete 7.5%rof/7.5%damage/10%falloff Give us options CCP, without actually making it any better than the munnin at RAW turret use, instead being good with one type of turret at a time. or another option is 20% bonus to turret damage per level -25% ROF for turrets 10% optimal per level now you get double alpha guns, at less dps than the gallante tech 3 boat.
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.09 12:42:00 - [406] Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 09/03/2009 12:43:14 Originally by: MotherMoon 1st of all I'm sorry for any misunderstanding. ok, I never said you said the loki was good or bad I was only talking about about what you said that bonuses aren't everything. on tech 3, only one type of loki can get 7 turrets and you give up a lot for that. normally you'll have just 5 with that bonus. SO that doesn't excuse the huge difference in bonuses. I was only arguing that bonuses are more important than you were stating. that's all :) Well, bonuses are still that.. bonuses; they're applied to a certain base value, so final value depends on that base as much as it does on bonuses. I can sort of agree that CCP went over the top with Caldari/Gallente. Basically if you think of usual 5% rof/dmg bonuses as of single ones, then 12.5% dmg pl is 2x5% dmg bonuses applied on top of each other, same with 7.5% rof pl, it's dual bonus. In the end, Gallente get... 3.5 direct dmg related bonuses(7.5% rof and 7.5% dmg), Caldari get 3(7.5% rof and 5% kin dmg), Amarr get 2(12.5% dmg), Minnie get 2(7.5% rof OR 12.5% dmg). Why is that the case? Well, looks obvious that CCP don't want Amarr/Minmatar to have just-your-usual gankboats in T3. Now that said, Gallente may end up with sick DPS but nothing else, like Deimos vs Zealot/Vaga comparison, etc. What I don't like is the recent iteration of bonuses, i.e. AB bonus nerf(lol, why?), Sig Radius bonus removal(again.. why? won't it be better to reduce scan res bonus?) and stuff like that. Makes T3 mostly gank/tank boats without peculiar features.
Brutolina	Posted - 2009.03.09 12:45:00 - [407] Why o why did you take away the signature reduction bonus on the Loki. Makes me a sad panda How stupid I was thinking my Halo set would finally being remotely useful.
Xonja 2zero Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.09 12:46:00 - [408] Originally by: MotherMoon there is a BIG different between minmatar getting 7.5% rof per level and 10% falloff bonus per level. and gallente getting 7.5% rof per level , 10% falloff bonus per level , and 7.5% damage per level. If you don't see how this is better than the minmatar bonus, or doesn't make a real different in combat, your a damned fool. I'm fine with the Loki getting the same gun bonuses, as soon as the Proteus gets the same base speed, and 150% bonus to scram range, because that's surely the same thing too. Sarcasm aside, i haven't tried the Loki since i lack the necessary Projectile/Missile skills to be able to really judge its performance. But to me it looks like it will be perfectly able to do the same thing a Vaga can do, engage several targets and bug out if things don't go your way. The difference being is that with the Loki, the number of targets you can kite is limited by the number of webs you want to bring. Fit some ambit extensions and light armor tank, maybe a TD and you're good to go. I'm not a big number cruncher or EFT warrior, but i have a pretty good feeling of what works from years of PVP, as well as practicing with friends to translate stats into experience. If my maths are off, please correct me on the following: Loki, Huggabond def: amp node elc: immo driver eng: cap regen matrix off: proj scoping array prp: chassis opt Hi/Med/Low 5/5/6 5 turrets, 10% dmg/10% falloff per level drones 30mbit/45m¦ 937.5 powergrid 400 cpu 180m/s + 25% (Navigation V) + 5% (Prop Subs V) = 281.25m/s base speed 100m - 25% (Def Subs V) = 75m signature radius An example setup for the above would be: Hi:5x 220 T2 Autos Med: 1x Y-T8 or T2 MWD 2x T2 or better web 1x T2 or better disruptor Low:1x DCU II 1x Armor Kin II 1x Armor Exp II 1x MAR II 1x Nano T2 or better Rigs:3x Projectile rigs to taste, i.e. 2x Ambit/1x Burst for 30km falloff For comparison, a Huginn is 10m/s slower, and has half the lowslots to begin with. Add one T2 Nano to the Loki and you get 307.69 base. More turret DPS than a Vaga, plus spare drones. Just 10m more signature radius than a Scimitar. The only thing that's missing here would be +1 mid or high slot for injector/utility. No CPU issues at all in this build, although for shield tanking setups, more might be needed. I suspect the CPU got nerfed so badly because of the lolpassivetank setups that were possible. I don't get why CCP still won't stacking penalize SPRs, but that's off topic. Anyway, with the above setup the only limiting factor is how much you want to spend on faction gear. With proper webs and disruptor, you can engage any two ships safely out of heavy Neut range. Anything except heavy missile or laserboats without risk to yourself at all. Replace one web with a TD and you can engage any single turret ship without risk to yourself at all. If you can't kill, run! It's the most survivable of all the T3 ships. In wolfpacks, it is definitely the scariest in my opinion. What more can you ask, want a neut bonus maybe? Oh wait, we already have a Curse, and it's probably the only ship you'd be worried about. TL;DR: Vaga/Huginn remix, sounds like a fair deal to me.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 12:58:00 - [409] Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/03/2009 13:01:37 but they nerfed the web bonus to 10%. edit:no they needed! damn forum info! 30% bonus to stasis webifier range per level and the afterburner bonus. also I don't want the same bonus as the gallante I was thinking a 10%/7.5% tracking bonus. Finally yes it's not that's a bad ship, but the gallenete ship can do everything BUT the webrange increase. which it instead gets as a scram range bonus. So as far as EW I think the minmatar and gallenete ship are even. they both get the sig radius reduction. they both get everything the same BUT, the type of weapons, and the bonuses. same number of turrets even. oh and the gallenete ship always has a better drone bay too boot. so I don't see the justification for lack of a bonus. edit: ok point still stands, gallente get super MWD killer at long range, minmatar get web range. where does the loki deserve 37.5% less damage due to balance? or in my opinion, a tracking bonus.
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company	Posted - 2009.03.09 13:03:00 - [410] Aw WTF they did nerf the AB bonus for the Legion too. WTH CCP! There's no way that was overpowered, 700m/s with an AB isn't exactly fast...
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company	Posted - 2009.03.09 13:06:00 - [411] OH nice, the powergrid on all the T3 ships was drastically reduced overnight.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 13:17:00 - [412] Originally by: IceAero Edited by: IceAero on 09/03/2009 13:12:33 Edited by: IceAero on 09/03/2009 13:10:58 OH nice, the powergrid on all the T3 ships was drastically reduced overnight. EDIT: For the record, some setups did have a lot of PG, so I'm ok with you reducing it. But you went too far! The Tengu and Loki are still going to be able to passive shield tank, and you just took away the ability for a Proteus or Legion to fit an oversized plate with the help of an Ancillary Current Router, now it's almost mandatory to have one! That's not good... they could introduce fitting bonuses to help with this maybe.... I don't know anymore too tired.
Elendra Ragnek	Posted - 2009.03.09 16:55:00 - [413] Edited by: Elendra Ragnek on 09/03/2009 16:58:40 Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 09/03/2009 13:01:37 but they nerfed the web bonus to 10%. edit:no they needed! damn forum info! 30% bonus to stasis webifier range per level and the afterburner bonus. also I don't want the same bonus as the gallante I was thinking a 10%/7.5% tracking bonus. Finally yes it's not that's a bad ship, but the gallenete ship can do everything BUT the webrange increase. which it instead gets as a scram range bonus. So as far as EW I think the minmatar and gallenete ship are even. they both get the sig radius reduction. they both get everything the same BUT, the type of weapons, and the bonuses. same number of turrets even. oh and the gallenete ship always has a better drone bay too boot. so I don't see the justification for lack of a bonus. edit: ok point still stands, gallente get super MWD killer at long range, minmatar get web range. where does the loki deserve 37.5% less damage due to balance? or in my opinion, a tracking bonus. For a minute there I thought these things might actually be worth the cost and risk of flying them but looks like CCP have pulled the rug at the last minute. TBH given these substantial changes a day before launch we have no way of testing and providing useful feedback so we are straight back to the good old pre-nerf days. Looks like this will be another ship to muck around on on SISI but no point going to the time and effort of trying to build and fly em for real pvp with these crappy bonuses Loki were looking like viable AB fit roaming ships but with these nerfs you can no longer hope to dictate range against a MWD shipt in disruptor range so now you have to go back to an mwd and thats one of the most useful subsytems for minnie ships now wasted.
Inflationem Faba	Posted - 2009.03.09 17:53:00 - [414] tbh, much as I hate to defend CCP, if these cruisers were to remain this overpowered (cruisers dealing 1100dps to me is overpowered), then large alliances like BoB and Goonswarm would just begin "mining" wormholes for these things and add to their already rediculous fleets. T3 ships have to be something that are really cool in solo or small gang fleets, but not so incredible that everyone has to have one. Its kind of like with the T2 BS. They are really handy for certain situations (maurader = mission ship, black ops is a big SB with short range jump capability). Neither of which I want in my large fleets. (maybe the black ops for a small ninja fleet, but that's about it.) I'd rather spend my isk on a carrier or some faction fit ship for the amounds people still want for them. If CCP does feel like coming around and beefing them up again, how about this offer: Return the ships to one of the earlier rediculous setups, and restrict them to low sec and 0.0. At least then whoever is in the cross hairs of a t3 gunsight will be more likely to put up a fight.
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company	Posted - 2009.03.09 18:15:00 - [415] Originally by: Inflationem Faba tbh, much as I hate to defend CCP, if these cruisers were to remain this overpowered (cruisers dealing 1100dps to me is overpowered), then large alliances like BoB and Goonswarm would just begin "mining" wormholes for these things and add to their already rediculous fleets. T3 ships have to be something that are really cool in solo or small gang fleets, but not so incredible that everyone has to have one. Its kind of like with the T2 BS. They are really handy for certain situations (maurader = mission ship, black ops is a big SB with short range jump capability). Neither of which I want in my large fleets. (maybe the black ops for a small ninja fleet, but that's about it.) I'd rather spend my isk on a carrier or some faction fit ship for the amounds people still want for them. If CCP does feel like coming around and beefing them up again, how about this offer: Return the ships to one of the earlier rediculous setups, and restrict them to low sec and 0.0. At least then whoever is in the cross hairs of a t3 gunsight will be more likely to put up a fight. I lol'd
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.03.09 20:33:00 - [416] everything just changed ranodmy 6 hours after they changed everythign on them :P one of the devs told me "they wanted to keep us on our toes" so I say once a week they shufle the bonuses around with a possible of 10 and just surprize us every month! now that would be modular.
The Economist Logically Consistent	Posted - 2009.03.10 17:24:00 - [417] So just before patch day they change the bonuses again, re-nerf the fittings and bugger up market seeding of the subsystems allowing for little to no testing of said last minute changes.... ...sounds like a recipe for success to me!
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.10 18:20:00 - [418] Why do you took away the dual bonus of Armor AND Shield Remote repair ? :( This was the most exciting bonus I'd like to take. Loki with the old modul was so sweet for Gangs. And for the new Amarr offense moduls: The drone module is nice BUT why not even 20 or 25 m3 bay/band for the other moduls ? :( One TD and you are out of fight with the other two moduls. One Frig (even a slow one) and you can't do anythink anymore :/. Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
IceAero Amarr Shadow Company	Posted - 2009.03.10 19:18:00 - [419] no one argues that they didn't screw up with the latest changes... question is, what now? =\
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.03.10 20:48:00 - [420] Edited by: fuxinos on 10/03/2009 20:52:27 Originally by: IceAero question is, what now? =\ Wait 2 years, or probably more, until they fix em ( o/ Black Ops ). Why the heck did they open all these threads about feedback and blabla... if they change it anyway? proof of failure

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