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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 05:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Someone posted a thread re; how theyre unhappy with some Eve mechanics, Eve as we know it is finnished, the end is nigh blah blah blah.
What I found interesting was that they mentioned inferno will directly affect Datacore farming; Anyone know whats gonna happen to Datacores in May? Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 06:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2304
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 06:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just keep your eye out for any devblogs. This would be a significant change to the status quo, so it's going to be announced through official channels before it will be implemented on TQ. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
599
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 06:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
So long as I get all the science releated SP back, all the skill books to cash out, and what ever I earned all ready I couldn't care. I had already trained those over a year ago, but if they change it to straight up LP conversion in a store I don't have access to then I want the research skills and the research skill pre-req back...was almost 30 days worth of training and I want that back since I can no longer use them nor am I interested at all in any other research as industry building is ******* boring beyond setting some ammo to be built when I need it. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
719
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 06:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. |
Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 06:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
And I grinded all those lvl4 Rand D agents, at least havent trained much research skills yet, phew! Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Arcan Winter
Hedion University Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 06:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Assume all they need to do with the current datacore from agents is: unless you solve the mission that thay give you within 24h you stop earning RP. It will easily stop passive datacore farming.... |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 07:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. this word does not mean what you think it means |
supersexysucker
Uber Awesome Fantastico Awesomeness Group Ayn Sof Aur
82
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 08:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. this word does not mean what you think it means
+1 your an idiot. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
1452
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 08:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
supersexysucker wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. this word does not mean what you think it means +1 your an idiot.
You probably need to clarify your antecedent, can't tell if you're calling Vera or Xython an idiot. Cause one of those is the right call, and one is the wrong, and the closest antecedent is the person who understands what an Isk Faucet is. (Hint: The Bathtub is the EvE economy as a whole, not the individual wallet) Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 13:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
1b that it WONT be included in Inferno. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1787
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 14:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
As for the reference CCP made about Data Cores:
CCP said they were looking into increasing the amount of Research Point's needed for civilians to redeem Data Cores and maybe even have a small ISK fee included with the redemption.
As a civilian I have a problem with that considering there was a lot of time spent training up skills and building up standings to access high level R&D Agents. As such, I don't think there should be any change done to the civilian cost and I'm certain a lot of other civilians would also agree with that.
FYI - Data Cores from R&D Agents are not a big ISK printing press. The amount of ISK gained by selling Data Cores in market is extremely low when compared to the amount of time it took to acquire those Data Cores. This is not something that enables players to get rich quick. I don't know where CCP got the idea that it's an ATM machine but they are obviously mistaken.
CCP said they are looking to increase rewards for Factional Warfare players by adding Data Cores to the FW LP Store at a reduced rate compared to the civilian cost. Right now the cost of items in the FW LP Store is roughly about 60% of the regular LP Store cost. With the current revision plans pertaining to FW LP's, those Data Cores will be very cheap for Militia members.
I don't see a problem with FW LP Stores selling Data Cores at a reduced rate compared to the civilian cost. However, I think the FW Data Cores should also require the appropriate Science skills for redemption. If not, I imagine there will be some rage threads posted about that. If CCP plans on retiring R&D Agents, then an option to reimburse Research Project Management skill points should be offered to civilians. The rest of the Science skills are still needed for invention and manufacturing. |
SlapNuts
Massive Dynamic weapons
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 14:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rewards, requirements and sometimes what skills give you can and have been changed over the years by CCP. I used to have Research agents for the T2 lottery, then they changed it to data cores witch paid out a lot when they were introduced. The current market for data cores suck as a money maker IMO. I think most vets just sit on them collecting the data cores every year or more and the return on that is not that great either.
i would love a system to regain certain skills points, not just these and put them into things that are actually usefull for me but thats not about to happen any time soon so just sit back and take the changes CCp gives you, cause there is nothing we can do about it, waisted skills are waisted skills, at least with data cores you can upgrade a clone =) |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 15:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.
CCP misuses it's own terms sometimes and I do not like it...
"Printing ISK like an ATM" is the term I hear used regarding datacores from TWO different developers. This is simply not true as the defined terms outlined by SEVERAL other developers.
ISK does NOT enter the game by datacores - period! This is a false primes to use in justifying the upcoming research agent nerf!
Datacores are purchased and sold in the market at player controlled rates. That is not the same as introducing ISK into the game similar to bounties and mission running. There is NO inflationary pressures caused by datacore purchases and reselling.
This will have unintended consequences that I believe CCP is not clearly thinking through. T2 items will increase in price. People will not play faction who RP now just because you want them to. The ISK distribution will shift to PvP players, not industrialists who build materials ank maintain downward pressure on market prices.
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Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 15:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:Someone posted a thread re; how theyre unhappy with some Eve mechanics, Eve as we know it is finnished, the end is nigh blah blah blah.
What I found interesting was that they mentioned inferno will directly affect Datacore farming; Anyone know whats gonna happen to Datacores in May?
I believe his quote was to the effect of
If youre smart you'll cash in before the change With a widening of eyes like it was REALLY obvious.
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Micheal Dietrich
Standards and Practices
351
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 15:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
I am rather curious about this myself as it was suggested to me just the other night to try jumping in to R&D for some side cash. Picked up 2 skills to train and got one L1 agent going. I have no plans to make this a primary income by no means but just something to stop by and do during 'downtime' |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 15:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. Emphasis on "problem" ??? Why is this a problem? I never have trouble selling my datacores, so somebody needs them. Seems like a valid business enterprise to me, and I am helping to supply needed materials to satisfy a hungry public.
Also, and I think others have mentioned this, we had to grind standings to have access to the R&D agents as well as train a lenghty skills pathway. Therefore, we have made fairly large investments to build a passive income stream - "free ISK" it is not.
So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.
But if this is CCP's thinking, then simply restrict access to R&D agents (or the Research skills tree) to one toon per account. In my mind this is similar to skills restrictions on trial accounts. I'd be fine with that. But to make radical changes to the datacore market is uncalled for.
P.S. I'm selling the last of my datacores tomorrow because the foreshadowing on the Ten Ton Hammer vid is has the feel of a steam roller ... |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
366
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. Please, Mr. Scientist, explain how Datacores or PI is an "isk faucet". HINT: They aren't, because no new isk enters the game because of them.
Isk faucets are (for example) bounties, where you get isk from npc's, that would not have existed except for your actions.
Taking someone else' isk for your datacores/PI brings in no new isk, so therefore is *not* an isk faucet.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1306
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:supersexysucker wrote:Vera Algaert wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. this word does not mean what you think it means +1 your an idiot. You probably need to clarify your antecedent, [Period] [I] can't tell if you're calling Vera or Xython an idiot. [Be]Cause one of those is the right call,[remove and] and one is the wrong, and the closest antecedent is the person who understands what an Isk [Capital f ?]Faucet is. (Hint: The Bathtub is the EvE economy as a whole, not the individual wallet)
I wonder who are the real idiots here?
I pointed out a few of the ironies.
Mr Epeen
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
287
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like where this is going. Do you smell what the Lock's cooking? |
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Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
236
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
It's kind of wierd. A few years ago when they nerfed shadow training, the datacore thing came up and they chose to not nerf it out. Now they are saying it's a problem. |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1241
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
102
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 16:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you.
^^^^^^^
In EVE?
You cater to the worst sort of people, and then ask everyone to play nice?
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
255
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 17:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. But it's still market transactions. Supply and demand. Who cares if people don't do them for the cores but to sell on the market? That's like saying miners who don't use their ore to build stuff are just mining for money.
If they make cores harder to obtain (ie faction warfare) then then price of T2 items will go up dramatically. Case in point, drone poo nerf.
And yes, I have two data core alts but that isk is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else I can do. I seriously don't see the problem with the current system. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
255
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 17:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
AFK Hauler wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. CCP misuses it's own terms sometimes and I do not like it... "Printing ISK like an ATM" is the term I hear used regarding datacores from TWO different developers. This is simply not true as the defined terms outlined by SEVERAL other developers. ISK does NOT enter the game by datacores - period! This is a false primes to use in justifying the upcoming research agent nerf! Datacores are purchased and sold in the market at player controlled rates. That is not the same as introducing ISK into the game similar to bounties and mission running. There is NO inflationary pressures caused by datacore purchases and reselling. This will have unintended consequences that I believe CCP is not clearly thinking through. T2 items will increase in price. People will not play faction who RP now just because you want them to. The ISK distribution will shift to PvP players, not industrialists who build materials ank maintain downward pressure on market prices. Exactly. The isk faucet talk really bugs me too. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
367
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. Emphasis on "problem" ??? Why is this a problem? I never have trouble selling my datacores, so somebody needs them. Seems like a valid business enterprise to me, and I am helping to supply needed materials to satisfy a hungry public. Also, and I think others have mentioned this, we had to grind standings to have access to the R&D agents as well as train a lenghty skills pathway. Therefore, we have made fairly large investments to build a passive income stream - "free ISK" it is not. So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that. But if this is CCP's thinking, then simply restrict access to R&D agents (or the Research skills tree) to one toon per account. In my mind this is similar to skills restrictions on trial accounts. I'd be fine with that. But to make radical changes to the datacore market is uncalled for. P.S. I'm selling the last of my datacores tomorrow because the foreshadowing on the Ten Ton Hammer vid is has the feel of a steam roller ... If I recall correctly, it was to do several things:
A) Give new incentive to Faction War, B) Remove AFK wealth generation... C) Promote more player interaction (beyond the market).
Also - No, Research as a business is *not* costing CCP a cent... You can't buy a plex (for in game money) that wasn't bought and payed for by someone. So CCP gets their money either way. As an aside, if you are able to use plex to pay for your account, CCP makes more money than someone who pays for their account with the "one year subscription". Look at the cost of plex/month of game time in your local currency, and the cost of each month of game time on a one year subscription.
Plex makes CCP more money than regular subscriptions (across the board, I think).
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1308
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno.
I can live with that as long as they cash out the SP that I spent 60 days training to get Research Project Management to level 5 for the sole reason of collecting datacores from the maximum agents. Unless you can still run agents and the FW stuff is in addition too, and not instead of.
In any case I will be following this closely as I have a lot of SP over a lot of characters that are dedicated researcher/ inventors. At this point it's mostly speculation and guesses.
Mr Epeen
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
664
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno.
Suggested?
He outright states point blank that Data Cores are being switched into FW, he didn't say which ones, I assume the racial starship engineering cores, but he also point blank says that when the change goes live you shouldn't have any LP left on your research agents.
There has never been a more definitive statement from CCP regarding a change like that. You should listen.
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
103
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 19:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno. Suggested? He outright states point blank that Data Cores are being switched into FW, he didn't say which ones, I assume the racial starship engineering cores, but he also point blank says that when the change goes live you shouldn't have any LP left on your research agents. There has never been a more definitive statement from CCP regarding a change like that. You should listen.
Pretty typical actually. CCP gets the players to invest lots of time in skills and standings in order to get datacores, then makes all that time and training useless..... In fact, it seems like over the last year, CCP is punishing a multitude of people for training skills. Look at Supercoffins and Titans...
GG CCP, did it ever occur to you that this might bother a few people? Not so much the changes, but the attitude that you can get people to invest in all that training, only to make it completely useless....
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you.
CCP PHANTOM, why not some input on this topic from the Dev's side, we need some clarification from you guys on this important issue of datacore nerfing!
Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
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Something Random
The Barrow Boys
139
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
This to me is a bit worrying.
Free datacores for the skill investment HAS always felt like a cheat - one i dont mind collecting on of course. However i USE my datacores mostly, my current spread is to have 3 dedicated useable datacore researchers and i have 2 that produce cores i dont currently use and sale for cash for yet more produce basically.
My alts do other stuff.
Dont kill me CCP - really think about this hard.
Datacore for ISK is pointless - all will happen is datcore sales will rise to reflect the input isk and boom back where you were. I dont mind a little work - research orientated work - for my cores in the future.
"caught on fire a little bit, just a little." "Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangsn++ all here!" |
Kurai Okala
Okala Corp
15
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.
Neither datacore farming or PI are "isk faucets" since neither bring isk into the EVE economy. However, I agree that datacore farming is a pretty terrible mechanic since it creates huge value for those players who engage in it with no risk and barely any player input. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1310
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 20:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. Neither datacore farming or PI are "isk faucets" since neither bring isk into the EVE economy. However, I agree that datacore farming is a pretty terrible mechanic since it creates huge value for those players who engage in it with no risk and barely any player input.
A couple of billion a year is hardly huge considering the time it takes to get to the level and standing where you can do that.
Mr Epeen
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1242
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 21:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:CCP PHANTOM, why not some input on this topic from the Dev's side, we need some clarification from you guys on this important issue of datacore nerfing!
I would pretty much like to comment on the questions here, but that wouldn't do any good to anyone since I do not know enough about these things right now. Instead I will inform people about this thread who are qualified to comment.
CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
96
|
Posted - 2012.04.27 21:45:00 -
[35] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:CCP PHANTOM, why not some input on this topic from the Dev's side, we need some clarification from you guys on this important issue of datacore nerfing! I would pretty much like to comment on the questions here, but that wouldn't do any good to anyone since I do not know enough about these things right now. Instead I will inform people about this thread who are qualified to comment.
That would be appreciated.
And datacores are NOT free ISK, you have to invest TONS of time in skill training (about 3 months from the start) and so have to deny yourself training ship skills, not to mention TONS of time grinding up to lvl 4 agents, its very tough to properly farm data cores, its a Big initial investment. Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Dataa
LightBender Mining and Research Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 15:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
I like the system just the way it is.
It took a lot of money and time to get my skill books and even longer to get the standings to use my agents , specially when i can barely fit a cruiser. I use my cores for what they were intended for inventions. I dont get enough cores to keep up with how fast i can do invention jobs . This is where i like it that other people can help with the supply of cores and keep the costs down.
If you dont have access to cheaper moon goo than market a lot of ships are not even worth building if you have to buy the materials off the market
Buying cores from the agent is just adding more expense , pushing smaller entities out of the t2 market. |
FT Diomedes
Factio Paucorum
63
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Like others complaining in this thread, I invested a lot of time and energy in setting up 4 characters with R&D agents to get datacores. I don't really know how much ISK I get from it. Maybe 3 billion? I don't know because I don't access it exactly once a year. Still, it's not exactly a flood, but a nice supplement to my income.
With that said, I would be okay with having to maintain my R&D agents. If I had to run a mission for each agent once a week, it wouldn't be the end of the world. That would take care of the completely passive ISK injection. Level 4 R7D agents tend to be spread out (I think it is about 20 jumps to get to all my Carthum Conglomerate agents). This requires some effort, which I don't think is a bad thing. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:
So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits?
No, that cannot be the motivation, because PLEX increase CCP profits not reduce them. Every player that buys PLEX for ISK increase demand for them and creates upward pressure on their value, in ISK. This also makes them more attractive to RL cash rich players, who buy more of them. A PLEX is more expensive in RL than a subscription, so the net effect is that CCP make more income from the PLEX system, with some players using PLEX.
Also in the fan fest video stream it was "faction datacores" which I believe means the Faction Starship engineering core. |
Galffin
Black Lion Brigade Tragedy.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
I am all for a change in datacores and research agents.
As they stand with maxed out skills you make around 100m per month and it is the most boring and slow money in the game. If this was some cheap and passive income for newbies like PI I would understand, but datacores are a high skill way to make money.
Personally I would like to see datacores move to a more time intensive profession with better payout potential or made low skillcost so newbies can get into the action. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
323
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 16:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.
I don't see the difference between datacores and moongoo.
They aren't ISK and it trickles in. And to actually make some ISK on datacores you have to invest quit some time and skills.
|
|
Zora'e
Nasty Pope
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 17:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
I would hope that CCP would give us the option of reverting skill points placed into R&D if they intend to destroy data core farming. I have a significant amount of points into R&D and have no desire to go into faction warfare to make those skills useful. If your going to make them useless otherwise then you need to allow those of us who have no desire to deal with your planned outcome, to revert our SP's so we can move along.
At least that way the screaming will be kept to a minimum.
The thing that bothers me the most right now is what I see CCP doing and that is consistently nerfing everything in high-sec in a desperate attempt to drive people out in low/null/wh's.
Personally I don't mind living in any of those places, and prefer null/wh's over low but at the same time I also understand people who have no desire to go out into any of those areas and it seems counter intuitive to me for CCP to try and force the majority of their players to play in an area they have no desire to play. That is asking for cancelled accounts I think.
At the same time I also know that (at least) null/wh's are very profitable if someone bothers to take the time to make them that way and people are missing out on a lot of potential fun by not going there and experiencing it for themselves. However, you can't make a chihuahua turn into a mountain lion just by demanding that it do so. It will just make the chihuahua shake and shiver and have a heart attack. Then you have a dead chihuahua (cancelled account) on your hands. In EVE Online...-á-áA Friend will calm you down when you are angry after getting Ganked.., but a Best Friend will fly along beside you commanding a Strike Group singing "Someones Gonna Get It!!!".-á ~Zora'e |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 17:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you. why do you troll us by attaching meaningless blue bars to threads??? |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1851
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 18:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.
There's nothing free about it and it takes a lot of invested time and ISK to buy and train up skills as well as grind up standings for access.
I have 5 high level R&D Agents available and after 4 months have gained enough points to make about 150 mill to 200 mill ISK max. I have to travel round to all R&D Agents, redeem the points, transport the Data Cores to market and then decide on quick sell or play the .01 ISK market game. Either way it's not an ISK printing press or ATM machine.
Basically the amount of ISK gained through Data Cores for that character can only buy one PLEX per year. I only have this one character on my account specialized to access R&D Agents. Not everyone has 3x Data Core farming alts nor does everyone do Planetary Interaction, I certainly don't.
Hell, I gain more Data Cores within one day from doing exploration than what I get from all my R&D agents within one week. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
324
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 18:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Zora'e wrote: At the same time I also know that (at least) null/wh's are very profitable if someone bothers to take the time to make them that way and people are missing out on a lot of potential fun by not going there and experiencing it for themselves. However, you can't make a chihuahua turn into a mountain lion just by demanding that it do so. It will just make the chihuahua shake and shiver and have a heart attack. Then you have a dead chihuahua (cancelled account) on your hands.
I think you miss a very large point there.
There are also those who have limited gametime. So they aren't really seeing any point in logging in and then being called to fight most of the time without having the chance to build up any assets for themselves. For casual players it's a lot harder to maintain a PvP life style then for the almost no-lifers who practicly live in EVE or have people with even less life making the Isk for them.
Should they log in then to get aggravated by those who have loads more time to hop into (often) pointless or useless CTA's etc?
I have seen it in various alliances where people with a socalled FC tag keep calling CTA's or HD's for 2 or 3 neuts somehwhere. They then expect that everyone drops what they are doing and form up all over the place. God knows howmany hours later the CTA or HD drops and most of the time it was just another pointless exercise.
The no-lifer can easy continue then with his stuff whereas the casual player most often has to log off during the fleet or right after. No making Isk to support the pvp life the alliance cries about.
Now the uproar comes alive that there are many ways to make Isk. True enough, but let's just not factor in that those too need time plus you often need another character to do it. This then requires another account or you need to train / purchase another character for it.
So let's invest even more money / Isk. But not all can do the money making on the alt while the main is huddling around after some e-peen FC who just loves the attention of the group straddling after him.
The few Isk someone can make from Datacores is hardly worth while to mention. Simply because they invested time and Isk into getting the standings and the skills up to par to make some Isk on datacore sales.
If CCP in their infinite wisdom is gonna do yet another nerf in favour of certain play styles then please cast away the word Sandbox.
|
Tarkelan
ARES Unlimited
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 19:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
I heared the warning, got all cores and sold them last week. After that i canceled contracts with the agents. So let Inferno come and lets see what happens. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
213
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 20:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
I spent alot of time to raise the standing for the RnD corps/agents, not to mention several million sp to max out the datacore gain. I'm fine with the change as long as CCP transfers RnD related skills to the free SP pool. EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
MotherMoon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
574
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 20:13:00 -
[47] - Quote
Skydell wrote:It's kind of wierd. A few years ago when they nerfed shadow training, the datacore thing came up and they chose to not nerf it out. Now they are saying it's a problem. They nerfed it out with shadow training |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 20:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
Damn, this sucks.
I've got 4 characters doing research, two of which I started and trained specifically for the purpose of having a passive income. It took about 3 months pr. character to get the relevant skills, so combined that's a year worth of skill training, some 500m in skillbooks and implants not to metion all the work going into boring grinding of missions to gain the necessary standings.
Dear CCP, I implore you to really think this through before you completely negate the purpose of 2 of my characters, render a year worth of skill training useless and rob me of all my work on this.
Fixing the FiS part of EVE doesn't mean it all has to be nerfed into the ground.
/Croup |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.28 20:43:00 -
[49] - Quote
To those who don't know here is a breakdown the amount of ISK earned with Research Agents:
With lvl 5 negotian, lvl 5 in the relevant research skill and lvl 4 agent you can earn around 120 RP's pr. day in the high value category.
- That's 2.4 datacores pr. day pr. agent.
- You can have six agents so that's 14.4 datacores.
- Prices on datacores vary greatly, but normally ranges between 150k and 300k, so that's an average of 225k.
- 14.4 x 225k = 3.24m ISK
So, if we assume you have done this for all three characters on your account you can now in total earn:
3.24m ISK x 3 characters x 30 days = 291m ISK pr month.
That's not even close to being a PLEX.
Also, consider that players who chose to do this normally train a character on a separate account and then transfer it once it's ready to make ISK. That means the initial investment is 3 months of game time which translates into 3 plex of around 500m plus a character transfer fee.
That's a 2b ISK investment pr. character, so each character will have to run research for almost 2 years before you see a return on your initial investment.
Whomever said this was an ISK printing machine needs to learn the facts.
/Aron |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 07:56:00 -
[50] - Quote
Oh and one final point.
There is no way this can ever become a problem for the EVE economy, for two reasons.
1: The datacore system does not introduce any new ISK into EVE. 2: If more people start doing research, the price on datacores will simply go down.
Sometimes you just gotta wonder if these guys even play their own game.
/Aron |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
520
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:02:00 -
[51] - Quote
Someone really wants their datacores to not be nerfed... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
101
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 08:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
I grinded lvl 4 R and D agents too, was about to train the skills for datacores, all suspended for now Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Ten Bulls
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 09:11:00 -
[53] - Quote
One of the things that sets EVE apart from other games is that there are long term consequences for what you do, both good and bad.
Datacores provide a good return for those that plan long term, these long term players are also likely to be good reliable customers for CCP.
Datacores have already been nerfed by reducing the standing requirements for agents, if you want to nerf datacores even more, then you should allow a refund for all datacore related skill points (even if they can also be used for invention) and provide another benefit for having high corp standings.
|
Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
101
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 09:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
And they should reimburse standings also, so we can apply them to agents that will be useful, and not useless after Inferno Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
32
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 09:50:00 -
[55] - Quote
Eliminating gun-mining in missions so forth is good. Adding gun-researching in FW is... good?
While the method, the mechanics, of the new system is entirely unknown I would expect all datacores to appear in FW LP Stores. If they're still available through R&D Agents in parallel then I would not expect the datacore market to change that much (though the prices might) as the FW datacores will be competing with Navy 'geddons and so forth for profit/LP. Most likely the datacores will be pitched high initially and we'll see a huge oversupply which will drop the price of datacores sharply (good news for us inventors) but that in itself will effectively eliminate the FW LP Store from the equation.
The only way it can work in the way Soundwave seems to be hoping is if FW LP Stores become the only source of datacores... |
Lictor Yeva
WoonGaffe
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 11:03:00 -
[56] - Quote
The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.
If a particular PvP tactic is nerfed you can just adapt to a new tactic. There's no adapting to losing the entire reason you created your character in the first place. It'd be like CCP saying "We're removing mining/pvp/missions/exploration, etc...".
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1505
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 12:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
+1 for nerfing passive income ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 12:29:00 -
[58] - Quote
Lictor Yeva wrote:The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.
You know you could use the invested SP into good use right? With little additional training you have a good inventor.
But anyway, first of all, we're talking about the RACIAL DC, so changes would effect only a small portion of the agents.
Second, the DC markets are pretty stable. So in this case we're not talking about something that is broken. |
Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
359
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 12:32:00 -
[59] - Quote
I just cashed out over 2 years worth of datacores on all my R&D alts. Thank god I installed jump clones in the agent locations back then, cause flying all those alts around.... |
Lictor Yeva
WoonGaffe
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 12:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
clixor wrote:Lictor Yeva wrote:The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.
You know you could use the invested SP into good use right? With little additional training you have a good inventor. But anyway, first of all, we're talking about the RACIAL DC, so changes would effect only a small portion of the agents. Second, the DC markets are pretty stable. So in this case we're not talking about something that is broken.
1. The invested SP's are useless, because I trained these characters for a passive income. I have no use for another active income toon. Besides, I do have an invention character, she does all the invention I need to do... so can hardly use 3 more toons for that purpose.
2. Racial datacores? No, the jist of Soundwaves talk is that they're considering the changes for all datacores and research agents.
3. The DC markets are pretty stable now. If CCP mangles them in some ill conceived nerf, that may no longer be the case. The stability of the markets also does nothing to address the concern that there are MANY players out there who have spent what amounts to years of skill training, standings grinding and ISK investment, long term, to be able to have a modest passive income which CCP now threatens to take away for no good reason.
|
|
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 13:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
I really don't like this change.
I just trained my 2nd account up to do Research with agents, and I am now stuck in a rut with what to do for the next month while I wait for Inferno and confirmation on what is going to happen.
Research Project Management cost me ISK40million. Ok, I am rich, but it's still alot of ISK. And each of the Science skills used for Research costs ISK10million a pop. I spent hundreds of millions on these skills.
I agree that there should be no passive income to help fund PLEX, but as someone else has already stated, Why Not just make the continued accumulation on Research Points dependent on you completing those daily Research missions that are offered? i.e. if you don't do the mission after a day, your agent stops working for you until you complete it. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1339
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 14:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.
Being in goons you should probably know the difference between an isk faucet (i.e. something that adds isk to the economy and leads to inflation) and a material faucets such as moongoo or datacores that just lead to redistribution of isk already in the game.
Concerning the possible changes, I don't really care since I couldn't be arsed to grind research alts up - however CCP will have to come with something to compensate those with research alts for their efforts. You know... morons. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
214
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 16:28:00 -
[63] - Quote
This way of passive income comes at a price: Invest alot of playing time and the training time, plan ahead, maybe for years to get a ROI. Some people even created accounts for that and put in real cash.
I wonder how many RPs are researched each day in total. Maybe we can get a statement from CCP?
EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1867
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 17:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
clixor wrote:Lictor Yeva wrote:The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.
You know you could use the invested SP into good use right? With little additional training you have a good inventor. But anyway, first of all, we're talking about the RACIAL DC, so changes would effect only a small portion of the agents. Second, the DC markets are pretty stable. So in this case we're not talking about something that is broken.
Guess you missed the part where CCP Soundwave talked about increasing the amount of research points needed to redeem Data Cores and possibly adding an ISK fee on top of that. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
612
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 17:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:+1 for nerfing passive income ! Ah good, if you could just sign this petition to buff Hulks...
Wait here me out....it can't even fight...T2 drones don't count since its dead before they react...thin easy to break tank...you can't get a more passive easy isk generating income when it comes to hulk bashing when that salvage and modules drop that easily replace the destroyers.
Now if you could just sign right here... |
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 17:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
Remove 50% waste from datacore bpc's while you are at it. BPO owners have had their cake for too long. |
Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
88
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 18:34:00 -
[67] - Quote
For those have not watched Soundwave in the Ten Ton Hammer interview, it gets even better. The idiot does not even have a clue how this this will impact the datacore market and ultimately invention / T2 costs. And he is quite proud of this. These are not my words, but his. Watch the interview.
In the interview, Soundwave paints a scenario, where the Caldari side of FW blows away the Gallente side. He then goes on to describe how this will cause an immense reduction of Gallente datacores available, and that the Eve player community will have to "get involved" with FW to rectify the situation.
So now we will have all these industrialist chars who need Gallente datacores either training PvP skills for their chars and organizing massive FW fleets to gain Gallente datacores, or paying people to fight in Gallente FW.
I am sure that industrialists will be thrilled to spend months training chars for FW PvP, and I am equally sure that it will be very cheap to hire merc corps to fight FW to generate said datacores. |
Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 19:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote: So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.
What are you talking about? When you buy a plex someone has paid CCP $15. It doesn't matter who redeems it for gametime. |
Duvida
The Scope Gallente Federation
67
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 19:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
Zaerlorth Maelkor wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote: So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.
What are you talking about? When you buy a plex someone has paid CCP $15. It doesn't matter who redeems it for gametime.
Simply stated and precise. This is the point that many people miss about PLEX. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
215
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 19:34:00 -
[70] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:For those have not watched Soundwave in the Ten Ton Hammer interview, it gets even better. The idiot does not even have a clue how this this will impact the datacore market and ultimately invention / T2 costs. And he is quite proud of this. These are not my words, but his. Watch the interview.
In the interview, Soundwave paints a scenario, where the Caldari side of FW blows away the Gallente side. He then goes on to describe how this will cause an immense reduction of Gallente datacores available, and that the Eve player community will have to "get involved" with FW to rectify the situation.
So now we will have all these industrialist chars who need Gallente datacores either training PvP skills for their chars and organizing massive FW fleets to gain Gallente datacores, or paying people to fight in Gallente FW.
I am sure that industrialists will be thrilled to spend months training chars for FW PvP, and I am equally sure that it will be very cheap to hire merc corps to fight FW to generate said datacores.
I already see alliances slicing the datacore cake. Finally T2 will become as expensive as intended. Look at T2 rigs, they should lead the way. EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
|
TWHC Assistant
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
So we should start hoarding datacores now instead of selling them. There is going to be another wave of market manipulations ... |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1340
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:26:00 -
[72] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:
I am sure that industrialists will be thrilled to spend months training chars for FW PvP, and I am equally sure that it will be very cheap to hire merc corps to fight FW to generate said datacores.
Well - the market should fix that - as there will be decreased supply of e.g. gallente data cores, prices will increase and it will become very profitable to join gallente FW - it wont be necessary to hire mercs or do it yourself because people will relaize the insane profits that could be made and start fighting over it (provided they don't make it stealth-bomber PVE as it is now).
Generally I'd say T2 ships are way too expensive for what they offer currently, especially if you count in the far longer skill times.
Alliances bored of nullsec and joining FW to farm it could indeed become a problem though. You know... morons. |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
200
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:26:00 -
[73] - Quote
You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market
Edit: and by crash I mean flood |
TWHC Assistant
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:45:00 -
[74] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market Edit: and by crash I mean flood Maybe, but why should the militias sell datacores unless the demand pushes the prices up? Faction ships and modules will continue to sell and serve as an income source. I am pretty sure some first speculators are buying datacores now, which alone will drive the prices up. |
Lictor Yeva
WoonGaffe
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 07:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Here's a question no-one asked.
What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? From an immersion point of view why do we take the research and development part of the game away from the people who trained R&D characters and give it to people who like to shoot things in low-sec?
This idea is stupid on so many different levels that it could only have come from CCP Soundwave. I loathe the day CCP hired that inept Goon and put him in charge of anything.
|
TWHC Assistant
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 10:37:00 -
[76] - Quote
Lictor Yeva wrote:Here's a question no-one asked.
What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? Each Empire faction has its technologies and with the different technologies come different datacores. Best is you check out each datacore and for what it is used. |
fgft Athonille
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 10:49:00 -
[77] - Quote
id sell all your datacores now
fw is primarily an lp farming venture for all four factions. if you can get them from the lp store, the people with millions of horded lps will gush them all over the market. |
Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
360
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 14:35:00 -
[78] - Quote
Lictor Yeva wrote: What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? From an immersion point of view why do we take the research and development part of the game away from the people who trained R&D characters and give it to people who like to shoot things in low-sec?
This idea is stupid on so many different levels that it could only have come from CCP Soundwave. I loathe the day CCP hired that inept Goon and put him in charge of anything.
Pretty much this. |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
114
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
i would like some kind of change for R&D stuff in the way of adding something a little more active at least int he way of the offerd R&D missions to something a bit more... well Sciencey. with perhaps a more involved mission that involves some sciencey things like hacking or acrcheology or collection of some kind of material from a special mission to bring back in order to give a decent boost to your RP points in that field and the missions would be specific to the research field and level of agent.
actually come to think of it maybe something to think of as a little extra for incarna when that comes out. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:46:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lictor Yeva wrote:Here's a question no-one asked.
What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? From an immersion point of view why do we take the research and development part of the game away from the people who trained R&D characters and give it to people who like to shoot things in low-sec?
This idea is stupid on so many different levels that it could only have come from CCP Soundwave. I loathe the day CCP hired that inept Goon and put him in charge of anything.
I have mentioned it before on these forums, but how does CCP Greyscale and CCP Soundwave have absolute and overriding authority to make massive changes to the game on their own personal whims while other aspects to this game like Walking In Stations are based around a team concept? Talk about a (potential) dysfunctional working environment at CCP. |
|
Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
361
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 19:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:CCP PHANTOM, why not some input on this topic from the Dev's side, we need some clarification from you guys on this important issue of datacore nerfing! I would pretty much like to comment on the questions here, but that wouldn't do any good to anyone since I do not know enough about these things right now. Instead I will inform people about this thread who are qualified to comment. A clarifying comment would be nice. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 20:02:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hearing about this I went around and redeemed most of my RP although not all. Its not worth 30 minutes of time to pick up cores worth 30 or 40 million.... it would really take 60 minutes but not with full atteniton.. enough attention though that it would impact the efficiency of what i was doing on the other sceens.
Datacores ARE NOT Passive income !
They passively accrue but they took one heck of a lot of hours to get going --- training skills (yest planning skill quues takes more than a few minutes and logging in and out of a character never takes me much less than 5 minutes.... but mostly building standing,, examining markets and determining the best agents I could get in a trade off with time building standing and value of the different types of cores.
That initial time and expensive of books and tags (maybe 50 to 100 milion depending on how many tags) needs to be prorated into future earnings but even more... after a few years, if you went once a year to pick your cores up and had maybe 1.5 billion worth acrooss say 7 characters, it would take you(its taken me) 10 hours to get all of those points redeemed and item safely (thats a trick in itself) transported to a major hub to sell them.
I'm actually only 7 hours in because it's tedious as all hell just paying 1/2 atttention and not autopiloting when i've got a 500 million load etc.... 100s and 100's of jumps.
Maybe this most recent activity as a stand alone (just picking up a years worth from various chars with various lvl research agents) maybe I've made 150 million an hour for this once a year privalage that caps at 10 hours.
Its not like some people don't have incursions dialed in or multiboxed and ble to earn in that vicinity from time to time.
I'm not arguing that the system is perfect nor am I arguing that I'm entitled to anything -- stuff gets nerfed sometimes and i'll lose..big deal
I would take issue with the notion of it being "passive income" though. A simple change capping maximum accumlated points at 6 months worth would drastically change things and might even make it not worth most long time players time to pick them up from many agents.
Good from the currrent system ? It was engaging for me to study the space map and markets , set a goal and achieve the goal of getting the little industry in place. The HOPE of Passive Income was alluring.. and that hope made for motivated game play. Along the way I saw different areas of space and learned about Criminal tags etc.. other depth to the environment.
Its not like its the #1 super neeatess neat part of the game.. but it is something that exists already and works ok and is different from other parts of the game and makes NPC standings relevant in a different way (nice to BUILD on NPC stuff, not dismantle whats in place and replace instead of adding).
So Tldr its not broken, its not passive.. it doesn't need much fixing unless its part of something really bitching. |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
238
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 20:09:00 -
[83] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:Super Chair wrote:You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market Edit: and by crash I mean flood Maybe, but why should the militias sell datacores unless the demand pushes the prices up? Faction ships and modules will continue to sell and serve as an income source. I am pretty sure some first speculators are buying datacores now, which alone will drive the prices up.
Militias will undercut eachother (within your own militia, too) to make sure their stuff sells. The price of datacores will go down after the patch. The only way I see datacore prices going up is if a militia loses a ton of systems/ability to fight and what not and can't meet demand. There isn't going to be some level of co-operation within a militia to limit supply of datacores, this is due to alts. The prices will drop. Fgft Athonille has it right, sell now. |
Carton Mantory
Occassus Republica Trade Wind Commodities
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 20:24:00 -
[84] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:TWHC Assistant wrote:Super Chair wrote:You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market Edit: and by crash I mean flood Maybe, but why should the militias sell datacores unless the demand pushes the prices up? Faction ships and modules will continue to sell and serve as an income source. I am pretty sure some first speculators are buying datacores now, which alone will drive the prices up. Militias will undercut eachother (within your own militia, too) to make sure their stuff sells. The price of datacores will go down after the patch. The only way I see datacore prices going up is if a militia loses a ton of systems/ability to fight and what not and can't meet demand. There isn't going to be some level of co-operation within a militia to limit supply of datacores, this is due to alts. The prices will drop. Fgft Athonille has it right, sell now.
Under this Charters should be going down |
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 08:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
What an incredibly stupid idea. Let me see if I have this right.
Datacores are being moved from people who specifically trained R&D skills and grinded R&D agent standings to be able accumulate them, to Factional Warfare, which has nothing to do with R&D and who didn't ask for this in the first place?
I foresee a ton of problems with this latest brainfart:
- As someone else already mentioned people trained R&D characters for datacore income, most of the time transferring fully R&D trained characters onto another active account. There is no other reason for these characters and they will be rendered useless by this change.
- Characters that aren't rendered useless by this change (which are those that were cross trained for other purposes, i.e. mains and multipurpose alts) will need to have skillpoints and standings reimbursed. It will be nearly impossible to draw a line and say which skills should be re-imbursed and which shouldn't. For instance would I have trained research lvl 5 and laboratory operation lvl 5 if I hadn't needed these for research project management? Would I have trained High Energy Physics level 5? Would I even have trained mechanic lvl 5 on a caldari toon if it wasn't a prerequisite for Mechanical Engineering?
- CCP will lose revenue, because no people will train additional characters for datacore mining. They are in essence shooting themselves in the foot here.
- A part of the EVE production chain will be drastically changed, which will in turn drastically impact the market.
- These people who formerly relied on this income will now have to earn ISK elsewhere, so those that do not ragequit will turn to other venues of ISK grinding, which will to some extent dilute these other venues.
This idea sucks on every possible level. I hope CCP will get off their high horse and respond to this thread, because as it stands I'm about ready to close down 2 of my accounts, and just run missions.
|
Francisco Bizzaro
70
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 09:31:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dini Mueter wrote:
- As someone else already mentioned people trained R&D characters for datacore income, most of the time transferring fully R&D trained characters onto another active account. There is no other reason for these characters and they will be rendered useless by this change.
Except you probably did earn a bit of effortless money from these characters, so that training time has probably paid for itself many times over.
I'm late to the passive ISK research game, so actually my training time hasn't paid for itself. Shrug. The game changes, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's like speculation on any market.
And we don't know enough about the details of the new system to know if anyone has actually "lost" yet. You may still be able to do something profitable with your research skills, it will probably just be less passive than cashing in datacores.
Quote:
- These people who formerly relied on this income will now have to earn ISK elsewhere, so those that do not ragequit will turn to other venues of ISK grinding, which will to some extent dilute these other venues.
Is that really a bad thing? You didn't have to do anything for this money except visit your research agents every couple of months. There was no gameplay involved. This broken mechanic could be replaced by CCP just topping everyone's wallet by 100MISK/month, it's about the same thing. Is having to play the game to earn ISK really such a bad idea?
Quote: This idea sucks on every possible level. I hope CCP will get off their high horse and respond to this thread, because as it stands I'm about ready to close down 2 of my accounts, and just run missions.
"You've nerfed the most boring mechanic in game so I'm going to get my revenge by bullheadedly focusing on the most boring alternative I can think of." Have fun with that. Loss to Eve = zero. |
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 09:56:00 -
[87] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Is that really a bad thing? You didn't have to do anything for this money except visit your research agents every couple of months. There was no gameplay involved. This broken mechanic could be replaced by CCP just topping everyone's wallet by 100MISK/month, it's about the same thing. Is having to play the game to earn ISK really such a bad idea?
Is that supposed to be funny or some poorly disguised troll attempt? Didn't have to do anything? I had to train characters for years, do months of standings grinding with agents, travel thousands of jumps around EVE to agents that are scattered all over the place, unable to AFK haul because of the value of the cargo.
Not to mention the initial ISK investment of roughly a billion and a half in each R&D character.
No, no, you're right. It's free and effortless ISK.
|
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 10:30:00 -
[88] - Quote
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a R&D system that rewarded active playing higher than inactive accumulation. The current mechanic around this requires you to actually go to the agents location and do a mission, which will reward you with an extra days worth of research points.
My average R&D agents are about 20 jumps from eachother, so I'd have to travel 20 jumps to do a mission that pays out between 200k and 400k ISK worth of datacores. Nobody will do this.
If instead they made a mechanic like the one in PI, where you can access your planet from anywhere, it would be more feasible to actively work on your R&D characters. It wouldn't be hard to do, just some small interface that required some user input once pr. day to accelerate the research or prevent it from slowing down, like the readjustment of harvesting cycles on planets.
Hell, the problem with this FW idea is not that R&D agents are being nerfed. If they reduced the income by 50% I would still be running them... it'd take twice as long to get a return on investment, but I'm in this for the long haul. No, the problem is that instead of fixing the mechanic or coming up with some new content that can make it a more active endeavor, CCP just dumps it on FW and in the process screw over all the people who trained for R&D.
And frankly it's indicative of a strange new process going on at CCP. Rearranging content is not new content. The game was working fine with the old module names, the current skill training requirements for destroyers and battlecruisers and datacore mining. I could think of some actual broken stuff that might benefit from the resources put into cosmetics and needless rearrangement.
|
Francisco Bizzaro
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 10:35:00 -
[89] - Quote
Dini Mueter wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Is that really a bad thing? You didn't have to do anything for this money except visit your research agents every couple of months. There was no gameplay involved. This broken mechanic could be replaced by CCP just topping everyone's wallet by 100MISK/month, it's about the same thing. Is having to play the game to earn ISK really such a bad idea?
Is that supposed to be funny or some poorly disguised troll attempt? Didn't have to do anything? I had to train characters for years, do months of standings grinding with agents, travel thousands of jumps around EVE to agents that are scattered all over the place, unable to AFK haul because of the value of the cargo. Not to mention the initial ISK investment of roughly a billion and a half in each R&D character. Years? Months? Thousands of jumps? A billion and a half ISK per character??... I think you were doing it wrong. Anyhow, if you've really done thousands of jumps, you've been collecting datacores for quite some time and probably earned a tidy sum from them already.
Seriously, people trained research skills who have no interest in research. It's no surprise that they are closing the loophole that encouraged this.
The minute you work out the ISK that can be earned from datacores, you think to yourself: This mechanic is so dumb it verges on being an CCP-endorsed exploit. Should I bet some training time/standings grind on this, or will the datacore market crash soon, or will CCP realize the dumbness before it pays off?
If you've created a full-time career out of farming these things without having any other need for R&D skills or other source of income ... well, that is the saddest thing I've read on the forums today - and that includes having skimmed a page or two of "Goons need to save face". |
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 10:55:00 -
[90] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: Years? Months? Thousands of jumps? A billion and a half ISK per character??... I think you were doing it wrong. Anyhow, if you've really done thousands of jumps, you've been collecting datacores for quite some time and probably earned a tidy sum from them already.
Datacore mining takes around two years from you create the character until you actually see a return in the invested resources. If you wish to accelerate this, you need to watch the market and adjust your research to the most profitable cores, which are constantly fluctuating based on other developments in EVE, like the boost to hybrid turrets. As the agents are typically scattered far from each other, in different regions even, there is significant amounts of travel required to collect and sell your product. Also, I started this around 2 years ago, so yes, I'm about to break even on two of my characters and one of them have begun to net a small profit.
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: Seriously, people trained research skills who have no interest in research. It's no surprise that they are closing the loophole that encouraged this.
Oh, that may very well be. Just like people buy ships on the market that they have no interest in flying, just to resell them at a higher price. Or people that have no interest in producing T2 ships mine moon minerals. That argument has no merit in EVE whatsoever.
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: The minute you work out the ISK that can be earned from datacores, you think to yourself: This mechanic is so dumb it verges on being an CCP-endorsed exploit. Should I bet some training time/standings grind on this, or will the datacore market crash soon, or will CCP realize the dumbness before it pays off?
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with this? If this was such an easy way of making ISK you'd think more people were doing it? Like all of EVE? The truth of it is that some of us had research characters from before the datacore system, trying our luck in the T2 BPO lottery. Some won big, others like me never won anything. Regardless, I did not suddenly jump onto an exploit bandwagon, I am following a natural progression of my research and production based characters, and decided to capitalize on it by creating extra alts to support that. This is no different than people training extra characters to assist with looting in missions or haul during mining operations.
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: If you've created a full-time career out of farming these things without having any other need for R&D skills or other source of income ... well, that is the saddest thing I've read on the forums today - and that includes having skimmed a page or two of "Goons need to save face".
I never said that I don't do any other R&D work. I am an industrialist at heart, and I do invention with some of my datacores, but regardless of that fact who made you the judge of what is the right way to play the game? It's obvious to anyone reading your posts that you know little to nothing about industry in EVE, so why would you come here and troll in a thread about datacores?
Any other non-arguments you wanna throw at us while you're trolling?
|
|
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
1007
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 10:58:00 -
[91] - Quote
Taking away R&D from the characters that haven chosen this aspect of the game as their focus and giving it to other players who never really cared about it sounds like a bad move. It's like taking away warpscramblers from the pvp crowd and make them only operable on exhumers. On the other hand I really believe that the R&D system should be somewhat reworked- right now I have to watch my sec status very carefully, since if it drops too low, I will not be able to visit some of my R&D agents anymore. Eve is a pvp game- any mechanism that disencourages you to pvp (= actually play the game) is a bad mechanism and should be changed. -.- |
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
842
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:05:00 -
[92] - Quote
We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. |
|
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:07:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.
Thank you for that clarification. Can you confirm whether or not the datacores added to the faction warfare LP stores are only the racial ship engineering datacores or will it be all of them?
|
|
CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
842
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
Dini Mueter wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. Thank you for that clarification. Can you confirm whether or not the datacores added to the faction warfare LP stores are only the racial ship engineering datacores or will it be all of them?
We've divided all of them into the LP stores. |
|
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:14:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Dini Mueter wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. Thank you for that clarification. Can you confirm whether or not the datacores added to the faction warfare LP stores are only the racial ship engineering datacores or will it be all of them? We've divided all of them into the LP stores.
Thanks. Off to the markets then |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1302
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:19:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut.
Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries?
Mining with guns, all over again.
|
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
843
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:21:00 -
[97] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price. At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut. Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries? Mining with guns, all over again.
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. |
|
Corbin Blair
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:21:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you. How come any time I click one of those blue dev thingies on a post there's never any useful information. What's the point of the blue thingy? Inferno information or GTFO.
CCP Soundwave wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price. At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut. Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries? Mining with guns, all over again. Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly? We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. Thanks. |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
1007
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:27:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
So...inventing and building t2 stuff will no longer automatically doom me to a bleak and humiliating carebear life?
Sounds good to me....
-.- |
Max Teranous
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
23
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:29:00 -
[100] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.
Sup.
Dynamic pricing in LP stores? How are you going to do that then? As currently the LP store rewards are horribly set and are all over the place. Is this new dynamic function going to be for Datacores only or all LP store items?
Max |
|
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
843
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:31:00 -
[101] - Quote
Max Teranous wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. Sup. Dynamic pricing in LP stores? How are you going to do that then? As currently the LP store rewards are horribly set and are all over the place. Is this new dynamic function going to be for Datacores only or all LP store items? Max
We have a pretty cool system, which Ytterbium will outline in a devblog :)
All I can say is that if you're good at killing things, you'll benefit. |
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1302
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:33:00 -
[102] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
What happened to previous ideas of increasing data core availability through exploration?
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1302
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:34:00 -
[103] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:So...inventing and building t2 stuff will no longer automatically doom me to a bleak and humiliating carebear life?
How did inventing and building T2 stuff ever doom you to a bleak and humiliating care bear life? That sounds like a major case of putting the cart before the horse.
|
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
843
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 11:44:00 -
[104] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly? What happened to previous ideas of increasing data core availability through exploration?
Right now, 0.0 feels a lot more healthy than low-sec. There are a few good ways of making money there right now and I'm not sure adding another steady source to compete is as good as doing something for low-sec. Exploration is something I see getting a lot more rare and "jack-pot" type rewards, rather than something farm-able like datacores. It's profession that should rely on you tracking down diamonds, not standing at an assembly line.
|
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Bubanni
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
279
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:06:00 -
[105] - Quote
Soundwave, just move level 4 missions and incursions to low sec, and you would have balanced the game |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
127
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:16:00 -
[106] - Quote
You do realise you're saying "low sec" when you mean FW right?
The two are not mutually exclusive but are quite different given plenty of people live in lowsec and are not in FW. Unfortunately lots of people in FW don't class as "lowsec" pilots coz they're there to farm missions in bombers too.
Boost lowsec - yes, boost FW - yes, but dont think boosting FW is a boost to all lowsec.
Cheers. |
Francisco Bizzaro
71
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:19:00 -
[107] - Quote
Dini Mueter wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote: If you've created a full-time career out of farming these things without having any other need for R&D skills or other source of income ... well, that is the saddest thing I've read on the forums today - and that includes having skimmed a page or two of "Goons need to save face".
I never said that I don't do any other R&D work. I am an industrialist at heart, and I do invention with some of my datacores, but regardless of that fact who made you the judge of what is the right way to play the game? It's obvious to anyone reading your posts that you know little to nothing about industry in EVE, so why would you come here and troll in a thread about datacores? If you are an industrialist, why are you bitter about having spent time training R&D? Your previous post argues for the sake of those who have wasted time training R&D skills for datacore income, and I responded to those points specifically. But your estimates of "years" of training and 1.5 billion ISK in skill books is for a full-fledged career in industry. It's an exaggeration to say that is needed for datacore farming. And an industrialist doesn't need to threaten to run missions as a result of these changes.
My comments are directed at datacore farmers. You can earn a profit on a very short timescale if that is your only objective in industry. It's pure passive income that non-industrial pilots like myself have been exploiting, and I'd be happy if that system were changed. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
349
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:23:00 -
[108] - Quote
Next year EVE will come with free condomes per account.
That way when they screw you it will be atleast safe.
|
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp Unified Church of the Unobligated
438
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:24:00 -
[109] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:You do realise you're saying "low sec" when you mean FW right?
The two are not mutually exclusive but are quite different given plenty of people live in lowsec and are not in FW. Unfortunately lots of people in FW don't class as "lowsec" pilots coz they're there to farm missions in bombers too.
Boost lowsec - yes, boost FW - yes, but dont think boosting FW is a boost to all lowsec.
Cheers.
I second this, there are a lot of pilots who have nothing to do with FW that have connections to low sec. Low sec needs more than just some new items to be farmed in the FW LP store. WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
Kariva
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:36:00 -
[110] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:.... Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
If EVE is sandbox in with anyone can do what ever they want . Why are you constantly nerfing professions that don't need co-operation....? When will you MOVE the ganking to Low and null sec ? it's to f.. rewarding comparing to risk... Some People don't wont to PVP is that so HARD to understand CCP....??? Everything that is moved from high sec to low sec is dying. How many people do lvl 5 now ? ded 4/10 ? 2% -5% o former numbers. Can we get the numbers...??? |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3596
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:38:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Max Teranous wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. Sup. Dynamic pricing in LP stores? How are you going to do that then? As currently the LP store rewards are horribly set and are all over the place. Is this new dynamic function going to be for Datacores only or all LP store items? Max We have a pretty cool system, which Ytterbium will outline in a devblog :) All I can say is that if you're good at killing things, you'll benefit.
Dynamic LP store prices would be one of the best possible economic changes you could make. It's one of those boring-sounding, undramatic changes that would have a very large affect.
(Especially if you also combined it with a look at the LP store to promote more specialisation - each major corp within a faction should have unique specialities) Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor Federal Consensus Outreach
821
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Soundwave, just move level 4 missions and incursions to low sec, and you would have balanced the game
Why do people still think this would work? Most people wouldn't start running level 4 missions and incursions in low sec if they aren't available anymore, they'll just go and do level 3 missions or leave the game. This won't be beneficial whatsoever. Andreus Anthony LeHane Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Animated Corporate Logos |
Max Teranous
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
Kariva wrote:If EVE is sandbox in with anyone can do what ever they want . Why are you constantly nerfing professions that don't need co-operation....? When will you MOVE the ganking to Low and null sec ? it's to f.. rewarding comparing to risk... Some People don't wont to PVP is that so HARD to understand CCP....??? Everything that is moved from high sec to low sec is dying. How many people do lvl 5 now ? ded 4/10 ? 2% -5% o former numbers. Can we get the numbers...???
Lets be honest with ourselves, grinding some standing, training a few skills then forevermore grabbing passively generated datacores is not a "profession". It's something you setup on a few chars if you can be bothered then grab a bit of an isk influx every 6 months.
Max |
Cys Root
The Oasis Group Combat Mining and Logistics
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:52:00 -
[114] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price. Wow...thanks for completely screwing over those that put in the time and effort to train the skills and grind the standings...not only are you nerfing our agents but now any dumbass in a rifter has their own datacore faucet...a couple months of this and datacores will be worthless to farm...
WTS 2 now useless research alts... |
Lifelongnoob
The Motley Crew Reborn Tribal Dragons
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 12:57:00 -
[115] - Quote
nerfing datacore farming would kill t2 production pretty much. most players farm them then cash in every so often but if we will need FW LP to get them then the supply will never be able to keep up with demand and t2 production costs will sky rocket.
end result will be alot of players only using t1 ships for pvp and it will drive away more players from the game if they cant afford decent t2 ships because of high productions costs associated with Tech, and if this goes ahead invention + construction costs. |
Kariva
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 13:06:00 -
[116] - Quote
Max Teranous wrote:Kariva wrote:If EVE is sandbox in with anyone can do what ever they want . Why are you constantly nerfing professions that don't need co-operation....? When will you MOVE the ganking to Low and null sec ? it's to f.. rewarding comparing to risk... Some People don't wont to PVP is that so HARD to understand CCP....??? Everything that is moved from high sec to low sec is dying. How many people do lvl 5 now ? ded 4/10 ? 2% -5% o former numbers. Can we get the numbers...??? Lets be honest with ourselves, grinding some standing, training a few skills then forevermore grabbing passively generated datacores is not a "profession". It's something you setup on a few chars if you can be bothered then grab a bit of an isk influx every 6 months. Max
training alt to tier3 bc + scaning some ships + press F1 is also a "profession"...... Even bigger isk influx Seting up printing money moon ..... |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
850
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 13:48:00 -
[117] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Max Teranous wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. Sup. Dynamic pricing in LP stores? How are you going to do that then? As currently the LP store rewards are horribly set and are all over the place. Is this new dynamic function going to be for Datacores only or all LP store items? Max We have a pretty cool system, which Ytterbium will outline in a devblog :) All I can say is that if you're good at killing things, you'll benefit. Dynamic LP store prices would be one of the best possible economic changes you could make. It's one of those boring-sounding, undramatic changes that would have a very large affect. (Especially if you also combined it with a look at the LP store to promote more specialisation - each major corp within a faction should have unique specialities)
This is basically exactly it, yes.
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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
93
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:03:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
It detracts from the standing benefits for mission runners.
CCP Soundwave wrote: We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.
T2 production is already heavily influenced by zeo-sec, they have exclusive control of supply.
CCP Soundwave wrote: This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
Where ISK farmers high on the FW priority list ?
CCP failing |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
239
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:06:00 -
[119] - Quote
What does FW have to do with tech II research? |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
350
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:25:00 -
[120] - Quote
Max Teranous wrote:Lets be honest with ourselves, grinding some standing, training a few skills then forevermore grabbing passively generated datacores is not a "profession". It's something you setup on a few chars if you can be bothered then grab a bit of an isk influx every 6 months. Max
Ah, one of the daft ones.
First of all the training to be able to get datecores takes time and Isk.
Second you have to work up your standings which takes time and if you get skills to increase the standing grind also Isk.
Third you have to get the agents that give out specific cores, which in most cases are 20+ jumps away from eachtether.
Fourth the income on mothly base isn't the huge printingmachine people think. To make it somewhat interesting you need a full account of datecore alts. Which requires more time and Isk invested.
Fifth you have to spend a lot of time flying around to gather the cores and if you want them to make reasonable income you have to haul them to a spot where they make more than the station you gather them at. Thus running risk of being ganked.
Sixth To break even in time and Isk invested into a single datacore alt you need several months. If the alt is on main account because you only have 1 account then you're even further from making Isk because the time needed to fly around to pick up the cores is effectivly drawing you away from your regular Isk making profession.
If the only way CCP can buff certain area's by nerfing other area's to death then this isn't a sandbox but a stealth guided MMO where they covertly are attempting to turn everyone's noses in the same direction. CCP has had some valuable and gamebreaking improvements to MMO's over the years, but the constant drive to get people to move to certain area's of the game makes them more and more in par with games like WoW and such.
It's not up to CCP which part of the "sandbox" is the "endgame" of EVE. Atleast not if it's supposed to be a sandbox game. In a true sandbox they throw in the toys and let people play whatever they want and where ever they want without screwing one part of the sandbox in favour of another part.
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Rob Crowley
State War Academy
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:32:00 -
[121] - Quote
Kariva wrote:If EVE is sandbox in with anyone can do what ever they want . Let me help you here with your logic: If Eve is a sandbox in which anyone can do whatever they want, then the people trying to prevent you from doing whatever you want have to be able to do what they want too. Naturally the stronger one will win this conflict of interest.
Quote:When will you MOVE the ganking to Low and null sec ? it's to f.. rewarding comparing to risk... In low/null it's called PvP, (suicide) ganking by definition happens in hisec. And if it really were so rewarding why am I not getting ganked more often? And why does everyone else not get ganked more often? Hint: It's not too fracking rewarding.
Quote:Some People don't wont to PVP is that so HARD to understand CCP....??? I generally tend to avoid it, but you really had this gb2wow coming.
Quote:How many people do lvl 5 now ? ded 4/10 ? Comparatively difficult "end-game" PvE content like incursion HQs, class 6 WHs and L5 missions will always only be done by a minority of people, don't see a problem there. DED 4/10s are in hisec, so I don't see how they could possibly be relevant. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2331
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 14:41:00 -
[122] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Max Teranous wrote:Lets be honest with ourselves, grinding some standing, training a few skills then forevermore grabbing passively generated datacores is not a "profession". It's something you setup on a few chars if you can be bothered then grab a bit of an isk influx every 6 months. Max Stuff
Don't be over dramatic. It's not a profession and certainly nothing worth preserving in it's current form. Currently it offers no gameplay and is just a passive ability to generate some pocket change, that you gain if you spend a little time on it. It has been nice, but I certainly won't be shedding any tears over these changes. |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 19:37:00 -
[123] - Quote
CCP, why are you moving "farming with guns" away from the drone regions and into FW? Isn't the whole point of FW to promote PVP, rather than botting? Seems like you just want to nerf industry, despite saying at fanfest that you're going to be promoting industry next expansion. What gives? |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
241
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 20:49:00 -
[124] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Malcanis wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Max Teranous wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. Sup. Dynamic pricing in LP stores? How are you going to do that then? As currently the LP store rewards are horribly set and are all over the place. Is this new dynamic function going to be for Datacores only or all LP store items? Max We have a pretty cool system, which Ytterbium will outline in a devblog :) All I can say is that if you're good at killing things, you'll benefit. Dynamic LP store prices would be one of the best possible economic changes you could make. It's one of those boring-sounding, undramatic changes that would have a very large affect. (Especially if you also combined it with a look at the LP store to promote more specialisation - each major corp within a faction should have unique specialities) This is basically exactly it, yes.
So why did you go out of your way to homogenize LP stores and Corps in Factions for that matter? Show me a corp in Gall Fed I can't get a Navy Mega in. You plan to spend the next for years undoing all the things you spent the last 4 years doing? Great make work project but it isn't really doing anything for the game. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
352
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 20:51:00 -
[125] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Don't be over dramatic. It's not a profession and certainly nothing worth preserving in it's current form. Currently it offers no gameplay and is just a passive ability to generate some pocket change, that you gain if you spend a little time on it. It has been nice, but I certainly won't be shedding any tears over these changes.
As soon as you have to put time and Isk into it to even start with it and then also time to collect them all over the place I dare calling it a profession. If you're so concerned about gameplay then let's have a look at PI. This isn't really a lot of interaction either. It's also just "pocketmoney" yet it does require some management from time to time. There is far less travel for planets you utelize since there are far more options in it than with datacore aquirement.
No it hasn't been nice and it's going to be even less nice than it already was.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
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Posted - 2012.05.02 21:09:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Malcanis wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Max Teranous wrote: Dynamic pricing in LP stores? How are you going to do that then? As currently the LP store rewards are horribly set and are all over the place. Is this new dynamic function going to be for Datacores only or all LP store items?
We have a pretty cool system, which Ytterbium will outline in a devblog :) All I can say is that if you're good at killing things, you'll benefit. Dynamic LP store prices would be one of the best possible economic changes you could make. It's one of those boring-sounding, undramatic changes that would have a very large affect. (Especially if you also combined it with a look at the LP store to promote more specialisation - each major corp within a faction should have unique specialities) This is basically exactly it, yes. Are dynamic LP costs intended to stay Faction Warfare LP related or something you hope to have affect other LP stores? If other LP stores do became involved in this mechanic would that tie itself back to FW? |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1890
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 21:32:00 -
[127] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
WTF?
How much more ISK control does null sec need?
Basically what I see here is just more favoritism being shown towards null sec by nerfing high sec once again.
Why don't you just hurry up and turn high sec into low sec, get rid of concord and turn low sec into SoV since this is what you and null sec Alliances want to do anyway.
This is supposed to be a fun game that allows players the option to do whatever they want where ever they want. It's supposed to be fun. Being dictated to and told how I'm supposed to play this game is not fun. These constant fail plans of yours trying to push players into low sec only drives more players from the game.
You're just pushing players closer and closer into selling off their characters, closing out their accounts and spending their hard earned real life money on some other game that's more fun to play.
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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
94
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 22:00:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.
Your changes wont achieve the result you desire.
Production is done in high sec, because thats where the BUYERS are, its lower risk, and its more time efficient for producers due to scale. The changes your suggesting are only effecting the SUPPLY side of production, which is already controlled by low and zero-sec and it makes production less efficient.
Have you ran this idea passed the CSM ?
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Peter Raptor
Plutonian Army
108
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Posted - 2012.05.02 22:11:00 -
[129] - Quote
CCP Soundwave can you answer this:
1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation,
2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings? Evelopedia;-á
The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion -áGÇá-á-á |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1891
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 22:14:00 -
[130] - Quote
Peter Raptor wrote:CCP Soundwave can you answer this: 1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation, 2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings? Probably not. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 22:33:00 -
[131] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. Another question, during the interview with TTH you seemed to indicate an intent to eventually phase out R&D agents altogether. Is this still on the drawing board for when FW comprises a significant amount of datacore production? |
Jastra
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
92
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 22:39:00 -
[132] - Quote
why does t2 need to move more towards 0.0, wtf happened to the sandbox ? - you know, play how you want, except now it;s play as you want if your in a sov holding alliance otherwise bugger off, I am not usually one to complain, I certainly support 0.0 alliances holding sov because they earned it but slowly stripping all other value from the game for those who play less hardcore or simply do not want to be in 00 is not the way to go.
I DGAF about datacores because the market will adjust but i do resent the implication that t2, despite needing 0.0 moongoo already needs to move towards 0.0 it's upsetting, frankly, please explain the rationale otherwise more tinfoil hattery will result about you being in bed with the major alliances rather than ALL your players
many many people of all types do t1 and t2 manufacturing as a major part of there enjoyment of the sandbox, please respect all these folks and explain what you are doing rather than constantly starting rumours....
If you want to change things, introduce new things, not fix possibly one part of the game that actually works pretty well
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Dataa
LightBender Mining and Research Corp
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 23:02:00 -
[133] - Quote
Grr forum ate my post .
This is just screwing people that play the inventor industrialist.
Why should somebody with a gun be able to get datacores , that i had to train for and on top of that slow down my production of them ? Yes yes i am an inventor i actually use these .
Ill be clear i have 0 interest in your FW or pew pew ,lo or null sec over all pretty much.
Mining sucks ,not only is it boring might as well just paint a target on yourself and throw your cash out to everybody in the system if you take an exhumer out.
Want to do something worth while give mining ships some sort of survieablity, or let us fight back or escape something throw us a bone.
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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
149
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 23:43:00 -
[134] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:CCP Soundwave can you answer this: 1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation, 2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings? Probably not.
They had no ethical reservations about wasting 2 years of game time when they "rebalanced" super crapitals. Some how I don't see restitution for data core miners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:33:00 -
[135] - Quote
Ioci wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:CCP Soundwave can you answer this: 1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation, 2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings? Probably not. They had no ethical reservations about wasting 2 years of game time when they "rebalanced" super crapitals. Some how I don't see restitution for data core miners.
Pity your idea of game time equates to accruing skill points....perhaps in your next 2 years accruing skill points you can lecture us all more on what constitutes ethical changes to our beloved MMO spaceship game.
Super caps are still there in game way up there top of the food chain, they just got balanced a bit. It is not like folks stopped flying them because of these changes. |
Faith Patrouette
Careless Carebears Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:34:00 -
[136] - Quote
I know you guys cannot make everyone happy, so obviously there are people pro and con. However what I have seen in highsec lately is just more and more wannabe-controlling behavior by big alliances,
-Player groups (constant qq about high sec players getting too much isk out of things because they dont have much risk) - lets take all drone poo out of missions so high end minerals only come from nullsec
-QQ about incursions in high sec, that brought a new and 'fun' way of teamwork into the game et voila, big alliences cry and low and null sec dwellers whine, and ..... - yay nerf.
-Changes to war mechanisms , sure they were broken, they needed changes, but hey.. why not stir in the pot of non pvp players, by making wardecs against smaller corps cheaper, and thus looking for an easy prey much easier. Force people to either pvp or join a big alliance.
- Most null sec alliances that have held sov for a while now, are loaded, what the F do they need the upper hand. sole control over t2 production for? They are sitting on billions and billions of isk while whining en-masse to CCP because 'care-bears' have such an easy life.
And for some reason, either people at CCp are too heavily influenced by the bigger group of louder voices, or their own notion of how the game should be played, to see that changes like these will ruin the sandbox. Things like these, slowly but steadily moving certain core aspects for industrialists out of high sec so people are forced to do what you want them to do, or unsub.
Yes I would call myself 75% carebear, no I don't hate pvp, I have a character I pvp with as well as chars in high sec. I like both, but I am not always in the mood to do pewpew. There are many people in eve who do not do pvp. They know eve is pvp, they know they cannot evade it and will lose ships, they just choose not to participate in it. That was always the nature of the sandbox. Do what you want to do, choose your career, choose your own path.
These changes will just slowly but steadily kill the way you could live in the sandbox while being your own individual, and choose your own path, it will eventually limit the choices for people that do not intend to do FW or go to low or null way to much, while giving big null-sec corps more and more easy handouts.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 00:45:00 -
[137] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Ioci wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:CCP Soundwave can you answer this: 1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation, 2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings? Probably not. They had no ethical reservations about wasting 2 years of game time when they "rebalanced" super crapitals. Some how I don't see restitution for data core miners. Pity your idea of game time equates to accruing skill points....perhaps in your next 2 years accruing skill points you can lecture us all more on what constitutes ethical changes to our beloved MMO spaceship game. Super caps are still there in game way up there top of the food chain, they just got balanced a bit. It is not like folks stopped flying them because of these changes. Considering time is the only way to accrue skill points and all else that doesn't explicitly require then can be gained through one form of direct effort or another, how would you propose that SP be accounted for? The time that could have been spent training other skills which would remain relevant seems pretty significant. |
Vyktor Abyss
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:01:00 -
[138] - Quote
My point is you pay to "play" the game; skillpoints are part of the game yes, but after a while you can play the game almost equally effectively with 10 or 100 million.
I'm at 113 million now and trust me, getting all excited about your next skill dies pretty quickly after a while. Research project management was never exciting, even back in the days you 'could*' win a T2 BPO.
* If you were in the right alliance |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
354
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:25:00 -
[139] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:* If you were in the right alliance
Seems the opposite side is now the "right" alliance.
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Yalneg Splet
State Protectorate Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:46:00 -
[140] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:As for the reference CCP made about Data Cores:
FYI - Data Cores from R&D Agents are not a big ISK printing press. The amount of ISK gained by selling Data Cores in market is extremely low when compared to the amount of time it took to acquire those Data Cores. This is not something that enables players to get rich quick. I don't know where CCP got the idea that it's an ATM machine but they are obviously mistaken.
This.
Forget for a second all the time spent grinding stats to use top R&D agents. DC prices fluctuate a lot over the years but once they go below a certain point (which they have been at for about 2-3 years) it's barely worth the time spent to fly around and pick them up anymore. I can spend that same time grinding FW missions and make a lot more isk per hour.
So since I have 2 toons trained for maximum datacore farming (I used to have 3 and sold 1), this change would not even make me sad. It helps make the decision to finally stop wasting time flying around to pick them up and just keep grinding missions. |
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Yalneg Splet
State Protectorate Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 01:50:00 -
[141] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:My point is you pay to "play" the game; skillpoints are part of the game yes, but after a while you can play the game almost equally effectively with 10 or 100 million. I'm at 113 million now and trust me, getting all excited about your next skill dies pretty quickly after a while. Research project management was never exciting, even back in the days you 'could*' win a T2 BPO. * If you were in the right alliance
lol, my main is at 90 million sp and I agree totally. First of all I actually get annoyed when something stops training because I have to find something new to train for that I don't even really care about or will never fly. Also, anyone playing this game more than 3 months could probably beat me at PVP despite me maxing dps via skills. |
Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 02:33:00 -
[142] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote: We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.
Your changes wont achieve the result you desire. Production is done in high sec, because thats where the BUYERS are, its lower risk, and its more time efficient for producers due to scale. The changes your suggesting are only effecting the SUPPLY side of production, which is already controlled by low and zero-sec and it makes production less efficient. Have you ran this idea passed the CSM ?
LOL..who do you think GAVE him the idea. Once null sec zealots realized how powerful a meta-game tool the CSM was, it was all over for high sec. |
Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 02:42:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price. At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut. Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries? Mining with guns, all over again. Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly? We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
My god, how deep the hypocrisy runs in you. You are either a complete moron, or plain evil.
How is this bad..gun mining is bad, but acquiring datacores by guns is OK. I am truly not surprised anymore, once I read a couple days ago in a comment on Jester's blog that you are a goon.
So when you were drinking with your null sec buddies on April 27th, how many beers did they buy you over the giggles you all must have had over how you screw the little guy again. And how much lead time are you giving your goon buddies about what datacores are with what race?
I posted a thread last week asking this question, naturally ignored by you. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
726
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 03:12:00 -
[144] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
If this happens......"this will not be the game for me" after 2 1/2 years. Definitely.
This is not empty posting.
Just like POCO's......yet another Goon ISK Fountain.
"Behold, as a wild ass in the desert, go I forth to my work." - Gurney Halleck |
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:12:00 -
[145] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price. At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut. Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries? Mining with guns, all over again. Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly? We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
Why do we have to keep moving more and more to low and zero-sec. You keep making it harder and harder for a small corporation to get on it's feet. Soon it will be nothing but mission runners, and mining bots in highsec.
Frankly, I'm getting a little peeved at the changes. I've been in this game for a bit over a year, and just as I start to get into a profitalbe stream on some part of the game you change it again. I'll respond and start training different skills to adjust, only to have you change another aspect of the game and all my efforts are for naught.
Why should I have to be part of a mega alliance in low or zero-sec to engage in these activities.
It wasn't easy the first few months in game to make enough isk to get into a battlecruiser. Anyone remember the grinding you did back then. It wasn't so long ago for me. Sure I've a fair amount of isk now, but lets look at the new player and how much more grinding is needed for that first battleship even. Yeah off topic, but someone has to say it.
So, this isn't the well thought out response I was planning to write, but your post really got me fired up. So you just get the flame response from a paying customer.
PI and POCO's benefit low/null sec corps and nerf small hisec corps Removal of Meta 0 item from drops (not a bad idea for small industrialists, but horrible margins for sure on production) income and minerals from refining gone. Drone poo removal - mineral speculation shoots through the roof, and drone mission compounds and highend mineral supply dwindles.
Have you not skrewed with the market enough? Look at all of these changes that have affected the price of T2 modules. Now you want to impose another because it should be moved to low or zero (but you nerfed drones)?
Now you want to make T2 invention even less attractive than it already is. If you ask most industrialists, its a royal pain. There is a decent amount of profit in it, but the isk per hour is not. It takes time to make copies, invent T2 BPCs, purchase/build components, collect PI materials, and finally build the T2 module/ship.
You know why so much T2 production takes place in high sec? A properly fit POS is expensive for invention and production purposes. The risk to run that in low sec is enourmous, and certainly no small corp is going to be able to do that.
Thank you... AGAIN... for wasting so much time and effort.
BAH! I'm so right peeved that I'm not even going to clean up my post. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:17:00 -
[146] - Quote
Well, its be nuts to repost this in a place where he's reading it so....
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:So I have been stating for weeks now what most people have just tweaked to: Soundwave is an idiot.
Then I read a couple days ago in Jester's blog in one of the comments that Soundwave was plucked from the ranks of the goons.
oh plz linkies lol Nick Bison wrote:When my RL situation changed and I could no longer spend the time I wanted to in null, I decided to stay with Eve because it's just so damn cool. So I moved to HiSec.
I am one of those "casual" players. I've got 3 accounts, 7 toons all with specific jobs. I mine a little. I mission run a little. I build a little.
I saved up so I could buy the BPOs to build Orcas, invent and build Hulks and Mackinaws. No big production line, just a few ships here and there.
Assuming this datacore change actually happens as planned, it may be time for me to move on. Don't get me wrong, I still love the game but, my reason for playing will be effectively removed.
An yes, if it happens, I will be a "UmadBro" Hopefully the loss in subs kicks them in the groin like this summer does and this soundwave idiot is one of those on the chopping block. Yes, I accept ppl from Goons can seperate real life from game and job from goons but when you hire a guy from a faction in the game who have stated their goal isnt just to win the game but to destroy it for everyone, then you make him lead designer and he starts DESTROYING THE GAME, its time to remove him from the workload and roll back his ideas
Thomas Kreshant wrote:It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno.
"if youre smart" cash out. Telling.
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.
tech moons. You get infinite isk, yet THIS is a "horrific isk faucet"?? I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:24:00 -
[147] - Quote
Something Random wrote:This to me is a bit worrying.
Free datacores for the skill investment HAS always felt like a cheat - one i dont mind collecting on of course. However i USE my datacores mostly, my current spread is to have 3 dedicated useable datacore researchers and i have 2 that produce cores i dont currently use and sale for cash for yet more produce basically.
My alts do other stuff.
Dont kill me CCP - really think about this hard.
Datacore for ISK is pointless - all will happen is datcore sales will rise to reflect the input isk and boom back where you were. I dont mind a little work - research orientated work - for my cores in the future.
Theyre not killing you, theyre killing T2
SO prior to this, go and but a CRAPLOAD of hulks and T2 ammo cause you aint gonna see it again if Soundwave's fun destruction comes about I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:29:00 -
[148] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:To those who don't know here is a breakdown the amount of ISK earned with Research Agents: With lvl 5 negotian, lvl 5 in the relevant research skill and lvl 4 agent you can earn around 120 RP's pr. day in the high value category.
- That's 2.4 datacores pr. day pr. agent.
- You can have six agents so that's 14.4 datacores.
- Prices on datacores vary greatly, but normally ranges between 150k and 300k, so that's an average of 225k.
- 14.4 x 225k = 3.24m ISK
So, if we assume you have done this for all three characters on your account you can now in total earn: 3.24m ISK x 3 characters x 30 days = 291m ISK pr month. That's not even close to being a PLEX. Also, consider that players who chose to do this normally train a character on a separate account and then transfer it once it's ready to make ISK. That means the initial investment is 3 months of game time which translates into 3 plex of around 500m plus a character transfer fee. That's a 2b ISK investment pr. character, so each character will have to run research for almost 2 years before you see a return on your initial investment. Whomever said this was an ISK printing machine needs to learn the facts. /Aron
The sad thing about this is who said it -.-
I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1315
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Right now, 0.0 feels a lot more healthy than low-sec. There are a few good ways of making money there right now and I'm not sure adding another steady source to compete is as good as doing something for low-sec. Exploration is something I see getting a lot more rare and "jack-pot" type rewards, rather than something farm-able like datacores. It's profession that should rely on you tracking down diamonds, not standing at an assembly line.
Exploration doesn't only happen in nullsec. Lowsec is not only Faction Warfare. Shooting things isn't the only activity in this game.
How is a cache of a dozen datacores not a "jackpot" while a single decryptor is? Even if every single magnetometric or radar site dropped datacores, that is hardyl "standing at an assembly line". Instead you are increasing the attractiveness of FW to the ISK/hr maximizers. You are turning shooting things into the assembly line.
"C'mon fleet, we need to chase down this guy and blow him up!"
"Hell no! We get more LP from this bunker that just spawned!"
100 datacores is a month or more production from a single agent. That's 20M ISK or so. One decryptor is worth around 9M ISK. Even a dozen drops per month of a dozen datacores would spice up exploration a little for the pilots involved while simultaneously replacing the production you are cutting from R&D agents. You can't get much more diffuse than a few cores here and there from exploration sites.
Perhaps you could compare the number of exploration sites visited each month to the number of datacores consumed each month. Come back to us with an indication of the average number of datacores that would need to be dropped from each mag or radar site in order to supply 1/3rd of the consumption.
And while doing that, could you update us with any progress on those ancient plans to move asteroid belts to the content system?
Will purchasing datacores from the LP store require science skills? Will purchasing datacores from the LP store cost ISK? |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:12:00 -
[150] - Quote
Damnit, forums ate my post...
Short version: Its possible CCP Soundwave might be an honest fool, we need to push the CSM to make him confront the flaws in his plan. Im sure most CSM people take their job seriosuly, let them know its a problem.
CSM contact details are in the Jita Park speakers forum |
|
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
359
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:13:00 -
[151] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote: LOL..who do you think GAVE him the idea. Once null sec zealots realized how powerful a meta-game tool the CSM was, it was all over for high sec.
Not as powerfull as having a lead designer in your alliance.
|
Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
101
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 05:46:00 -
[152] - Quote
I got into research in the hopes of getting a T2 bpo. That never happened and then they nerfed the system. Oh well, at least I get datacores. Now they are nerfing that as well? What the heck did I bother with all that grinding and training for?
What they should do is revamp the whole R&D system. Give us more things to purchase with those RP other than just datacores. Maybe let us buy T2 components, bpc's, etc. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3615
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 06:32:00 -
[153] - Quote
Lifelongnoob wrote:nerfing datacore farming would kill t2 production pretty much. most players farm them then cash in every so often but if we will need FW LP to get them then the supply will never be able to keep up with demand and t2 production costs will sky rocket.
end result will be alot of players only using t1 ships for pvp and it will drive away more players from the game if they cant afford decent t2 ships because of high productions costs associated with Tech, and if this goes ahead invention + construction costs.
Do you even think about what you're saying or are you deliberately talking nonsense?
Scenario: 1 FW LP yields 100,000 datacores. Result: "would kill t2 production pretty much"?
What matters is the relative ease of production.
Futhermore, what's your evidence that making T2 harder to obtain would drive more players away? Players "need" T2 ships and mods because other players have T2 ships and mods, not because they are in and of themselves necessary for anything. EVE was thriving and growing when a Cerberus sold for 350 million ISK - at a time when a 90 day GTC sold for 270M. That's the equivalent of a modern-day PLEX-equivalent price of almost 2 billion ISK. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
538
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 06:59:00 -
[154] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 07:45:00 -
[155] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
Hey Soundwave!
While I agree that it gives you a venue for FW to influence the rest of New Eden, I must question the coolness part of it. Really, the coolness factor of grinding LP's for datacores eludes me here, we only do it because it earns us ISK and because we need it for our production chains.
If you wanted FW more interesting, you should change the whole mechanic of it. It's boring and there's too much PVE going on with it already. I know the FW crowd came together and made a list of things they'd like and I know taking our datacores and putting them in low-sec loyalty point stores was not on that list. This is not gonna make the FW crowd happy and it's certainly not making us R&D people happy either, so I wonder who you're doing this for?
If you're doing this to introduce the dynamic loyalty points feature, that could easily be done without punishing R&D characters for their career choice in EVE.
If you wanted to boost low-sec in general, they have been asking for years for a proper bounty system, pirate NPC stations, a proper smuggling mechanic and black markets in low-sec. You recently opened the markets to pirate and deadspace modules. If you had made these items 'unlicensed' for sale in high-sec, you would see the emergence of new low-sec trading hubs for pirate mods and ships. Datacores in FW LP stores are hardly gonna thrill them.
If you wanted to make R&D a more involved process, then I wholeheartedly agree with that, but then give us a real research interface. Something that lets us do 'actual research' and invent stuff, instead of just clicking on an agent once and then wait. I have many many ideas for such a system if you want to hear them.
Bottom line is what you're doing is will not achieve what you want it to, it will only alienate some of your players further and eventually cost you some subscriptions because once the datacore market crashes there are many toons out there that simply have no value anymore.
So I urge you to really go back to the drawing board on this one. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:03:00 -
[156] - Quote
Not enough details yet.
How do we know how much loss will be from current R&D agents? It might be a lot or might be small. It hasn't been stated. How do we know the prices of datacores won't go down or up or perhaps just stay the same? How do we know what types of cores will be available for the FW folks or where it all comes from or how you obtain it? Dynamic LP store? At what points does it change, at what costs/values and what item turn-in to get them if any? "Datacores" - FW - all types of cores or just faction based ones and are they earned or dropped or a composite?
If it's not all types of datacores, then what?
Alt farmers parked to just "earn" them, I do see taking a bit of a hit but if you think any mass amounts of sympathy will arise for chars that log in only long enough to contract batches of datacores over to mains... No, that I don't see garnering much support from any in the community except other farmers.
The info here is just too vague right now on how it will pan out. It might raise prices, it might lower them. There are just too many factors to know how it will work without seeing it up and running - live style. Especially with something about "dynamic LP stores" going in. That's a hell of a lot of room for CCP to tweak it.
Remember how Incursions were supposed to be so well designed - how it was supposed to enhance PvE but also hold competitive PvP aspects? Then there were problems with gankers setting up the logistics guys and such... then the income levels came into question, etc.
Such changes as this... It's a major wait and see. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3621
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:08:00 -
[157] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity.
What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
361
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:13:00 -
[158] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0?
My suggestion would be to also introduce much higher jumpbridge costs and much smaller jumprange for capitals.
This should make EVE a tad bigger again and bring some "risk" to hauling all those datacores to null sec then. We can't have any riskfree Isk, you know.
|
Jastra
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:14:00 -
[159] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0?
hell why not move the whole game out there right, I mean no one actually plays in highsec or has any right at all to use the sandbox they way they want.... |
Josef Djugashvilis
133
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:24:00 -
[160] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Soundwave, just move level 4 missions and incursions to low sec, and you would have balanced the game
So, you want to be able to attack pve fitted ships with your pvp fitted ships.
Sounds balanced to me. You want fries with that? |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3621
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:44:00 -
[161] - Quote
Jastra wrote:Malcanis wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0? hell why not move the whole game out there right, I mean no one actually plays in highsec or has any right at all to use the sandbox they way they want....
So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1315
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 09:59:00 -
[162] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Not enough details yet.
How do we know how much loss will be from current R&D agents? It might be a lot or might be small. It hasn't been stated. How do we know the prices of datacores won't go down or up or perhaps just stay the same?
The main factors that will impact data core prices are the ISK cost of data cores through the FW LP store versus ISK cost of data cores through R&D agents. CCP Soundwave has clearly stated that he doesn't want exploration to benefit from data cores so we can ignore that avenue that was suggested by CCP Soundwave barely six months ago.
So what it boils down to is simply what the ISK cost is for purchasing data cores from the FW LP store. The dynamic LP store will be nonsense if all that changes is the LP value of various items: the ISK farmers will simply keep buying whatever earns them the most ISK for the input costs. With the firehouse of FW LP about to open up due to new ways of earning LP, I'd be surprised if people don't switch to data cores and ammo simply because the market for Navy ships will be saturated.
If the ISK cost of data cores from the FW LP store is 0, the floor price of data cores becomes 0 ISK. CCP will run into their usual problems of underestimating player greed, underestimating the ISK farmers willingness to engage in PvP to farm ISK, and completely stuffing up their attempts at introducing new features.
So you're a FW participant, and you've gone just about completely broke from getting yourself blown up. You have stacks of LP though, so you head off to the FW LP store and find the stuff that only requires LP: you trade your 1M LP for 100k data cores, and head off to flood the market with data cores than end up earning you about 10 ISK/LP. But you didn't have to spend any ISK to make that ISK, so you figure you're ahead.
You end up with a race to the bottom, EVE Online style. In the meantime all those people with R&D agents in the wings are continually accruing RP that they won't redeem since they'll lose ISK in the process.
So what happens if CCP makes the FW data cores cost ISK? For argument's sake, let's say it's on parity with the ISK cost of R&D agent data cores. You have the R&D agent farmers who have RP accruing at a fixed rate per day. Then you have the LP farmers who have LP accruing directly in relation to how much stuff they blow up in FW fights. At the end of the month the R&D farmer can collect 50 data cores per agent maximum, while the FW pilot can buy 5000 thanks to his handy store of FW LP. Again, the race to the bottom ensues due to the FW guy having no other option that he can afford. Thanks to dynamic scaling, all the navy ships are costing millions of LP, so the FW ISK farmer settles for what he can afford to buy that will sell for a profit: data cores. The R&D guy sees that two hours of effort collecting data cores is going to net approximately 10M ISK of profit and gives up.
Mocam wrote:How do we know what types of cores will be available for the FW folks or where it all comes from or how you obtain it?
CCP Soundwave has stated in this very thread that all data cores will be available through the FW LP stores for LP.
The only way that data cores are not going to drop to the FW LP store floor price within a month or so of this patch is if the supply scales with data cores collected from R&D agents. Of course, FW LP data cores could be set at 100k ISK to purchase in the first place, which means the price for data cores will trend towards 100,000.01 ISK.
With higher availability of data cores, there will be many more people attempting to invent T2 stuff. The price of T2 stuff will tend towards the value of the embedded technetium.
Now the only remaining face palm moment remains: will CCP make the "dynamic" calculation of LP prices happen when people access the LP store, or is this yet another task that is being placed on the "too hard, just do it during downtime" pile?
In the meantime, the null sec blocs continue to roll in the ISK from their tech moons, laughing all the way to the bank while all the trivial income sources are wiped out of the game. Soon there will be no choice but to join a OTEC alliance and beg for ISK to you can fly a ship in whatever fleet you are ordered to attend.
EVE will die a death of a thousand paper cuts, each one representing an idea from a Goon that seemed really cool at the time and noone else at CCP was going to criticise because they don't want to rock the boat. It's a pity that EVE is about more than just blowing up spaceships. CCP even highlighted this at Fanfest: too much emphasis on blowing stuff up, not enough emphasis on extracting resources and making things.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1315
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:01:00 -
[163] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't?
Nullsec already gets cheaper-to-run POSes and cyno jammers. What further advantages do they need?
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Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:04:00 -
[164] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't?
A BPO or BPC requires the same materials and time to produce an item in high-sec as it does in null. The advantages of producing in high-sec comes from proximity to resources and proximity to the people who buy your product. If you move the resources out of high-sec (i.e. datacores and high-end minerals) that is not going to change the fact that people will still build things primarily in empire, close to the rest of the resources they need and close to the buyers.
Also, don't complain that high-sec is convenient. That's how it's supposed to work. Empire space is the center of New Eden, where billions of people live out their lives, so naturally that's where the commerce would be.
Null-sec, on the other hand, is a frontier, remote and lawless, and in the old days with vast distances between settled systems.
So unless you want to offer the builders of EVE some cheap labor in null-sec that we can outsource our workload to, I don't think it makes much sense to move T2 production.
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Jastra
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:04:00 -
[165] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jastra wrote:Malcanis wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0? hell why not move the whole game out there right, I mean no one actually plays in highsec or has any right at all to use the sandbox they way they want.... So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't?
no I am merely asking why things should change, not that I fear change, I already pay 0.0 alliances through purchasing t2 materials, therefore I already support them de-facto, I am asking why the need to change something that has been this way since I started playing eve all of a sudden. Datacores are one thing, changing an entire playstyle is another.
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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
103
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 10:07:00 -
[166] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0?
Nothing stopping T2 production from happening in zero-sec at the moment, it would be more efficient as it would save them hauling the moon good to empire. The only ingredient missing from zero-sec is datacores.
However, if your building T2 stuff in zero-sec to use in zero-sec it would be much easier to move datacores from high sec to zero-sec than move the moon good from zero-sec to high-sec due to volumes. In terms of reducing risk and cost of production it makes even more sense to research BPC's in empire and haul the bpc's out top zero-sec, and them build T2 produce with moon goo from zero-sec.
But if we are really talking about T2 production thats sole purpose is to be exported and sold in high-sec then manufacturing in zero-sec and hauling manufactured produce to high sec would be a logistical nightmare as produced stuff has higher volume.
In other words, the way it is now is as efficient as it can be.
But this is all meaningless talk as CCP Soundwave's idea that moving datacores from high-sec to low-sec is going to move T2 production to zero-sec has no rational basis behind it. Hes proposed a bad solution to fix a problem that doesnt exist.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3621
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 11:59:00 -
[167] - Quote
I think you're neglecting the huge effective subsidies that hi-sec manufacturing recieves compared to 0.0 Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1318
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:08:00 -
[168] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I think you're neglecting the huge effective subsidies that hi-sec manufacturing recieves compared to 0.0
The greatest subsidy that hisec gets to manufacturing is the number of people in hisec allowed to do manufacturing. As a result, there is always a supply of near- or below-cost material for you to work with for T1 manufacture. Noone has to worry where their next load of Tritanium is going to come from.
In nullsec, mining is an express pass on the ridicule bus. If you're not shot by blues, you'll be labelled a bot if not kicked from corp. People who manage to maintain an industrial lifestyle in null sec are the exception, not the rule. Even in supposedly "industry friendly" corporations, you are still expected to be able to fly approved fleet fits in mandatory fleet fights.
The funniest joke in the game is the null sec alliances complaining that it's hard to get serious industrialists out to null sec, then in the same breath they laugh about the industrial corp they tricked into flying billions of ISK worth of ships and bootstrapping resources through EC-P8R. This talk of "farms and fields" from The Mittani is the greatest joke of all: he's not interested in farms and fields as activities to occupy his industrialists with: he just wants more stuff (for his minions) to blow up.
Malcanis is neglecting the huge effective disincentives to null sec manufacturing which have absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics, very little to do with carrot, and a hell of a lot to do with stick.
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Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
363
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:19:00 -
[169] - Quote
Null sec just want's it easier to dominate the game.
Goons just want it easier to ruin your game.
CCP just want's to cater to them more because they succesfully took metagaming to a new level.
New players and old vets alike who want to spend most or all of their time in hi sec for whatever reason have their place at the bottom of the foodchain.
The sandbox is dead and the linear game is born. CCP threw the baby out with the bathwater when they started to set directions and "endgame goals" in the game and fabricate directions towards a certain playstyle and section in the game. Favouritism prevails and the beginning of the end takes yet another step.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
544
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:25:00 -
[170] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0?
Wrong? It's just CCP standard procedure, whiny minority A bitches, so let's all devs figure a way to steal gameplay from hisec and spoon feed it to whiny minority A. I mean, actually adding content for those whiny minorities without fuking hisecccers in the process would be so un-EVE-ish, wouldn't it?
And certainly nothing could go wrong with stealing gameplay from the huge hisec majority to feed the little whiny minorities, as no one who has ever had their liver taken out by us has survived... EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
|
jack morrigan
red vine industrial services
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:30:00 -
[171] - Quote
dear CCP this datacore chamge along with the removal of drone salvage is just the latest attack on indipendent hi/sec t2 industry , if the purpose of these attacks is to force us into lagre alliance's you lose i'm don't pay my subscription just to be controled by someone i have a boss in R/L , i'll just find another game to play |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3622
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:34:00 -
[172] - Quote
jack morrigan wrote:dear CCP this datacore chamge along with the removal of drone salvage is just the latest attack on indipendent hi/sec t2 industry , if the purpose of these attacks is to force us into lagre alliance's you lose i'm don't pay my subscription just to be controled by someone i have a boss in R/L , i'll just find another game to play
Did you know that there are areas of 0.0 that aren't controlled by "lagre" alliances? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:36:00 -
[173] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote: LOL..who do you think GAVE him the idea. Once null sec zealots realized how powerful a meta-game tool the CSM was, it was all over for high sec.
Not as powerfull as having a lead designer in your alliance.
as I said elsewhere:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Fannie Maes wrote:BoB all over again, when will CCP ever learn? If they have one source of income you would assume you take great lengths to protect it, afterlast year, dust and wod and now this goons stuff... no wonder Iceland are doing so great! Seriously, if CCP wants to play the game tey need to give it to someone else to make as theve proven time and time again they cant be trusted to seperate in game and business I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:38:00 -
[174] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity.
Theyve BEEN saying this since the qq no ice in high sec drama when we saw that idea board
however, wheres the coolness in turning EVE from a sandbox into a linear game? Sandbox, you can try to do anything anywhere Linear, highsec is the introduction area, 0.0 is end game.
Quote:This is not gonna make the FW crowd happy and it's certainly not making us R&D people happy either, so I wonder who you're doing this for? The people that enjoy killing the ppl that like making T2 stuff till they no longer WANT to make said stuff. I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3622
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:44:00 -
[175] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. Theyve BEEN saying this since the qq no ice in high sec drama when we saw that idea board however, wheres the coolness in turning EVE from a sandbox into a linear game? Sandbox, you can try to do anything anywhere Linear, highsec is the introduction area, 0.0 is end game. Quote:This is not gonna make the FW crowd happy and it's certainly not making us R&D people happy either, so I wonder who you're doing this for? The people that enjoy killing the ppl that like making T2 stuff till they no longer WANT to make said stuff.
As a compromise, how would you feel if conditions for hi-seccers trying to do industry and invention were merely made the same as in 0.0?
I presume a level playing field would be optimum for promoting "the sandbox" in your eyes? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:45:00 -
[176] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Malcanis wrote:
What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0?
My suggestion would be to also introduce much higher jumpbridge costs and much smaller jumprange for capitals. This should make EVE a tad bigger again and bring some "risk" to hauling all those datacores to null sec then. We can't have any riskfree Isk, you know.
Dont they all ready? Tech Moons and all that. Looks like just High Sec isnt allowed those I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:50:00 -
[177] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:Malcanis wrote:So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't? A BPO or BPC requires the same materials and time to produce an item in high-sec as it does in null. The advantages of producing in high-sec comes from proximity to resources and proximity to the people who buy your product. If you move the resources out of high-sec (i.e. datacores and high-end minerals) that is not going to change the fact that people will still build things primarily in empire, close to the rest of the resources they need and close to the buyers. Also, don't complain that high-sec is convenient. That's how it's supposed to work. Empire space is the center of New Eden, where billions of people live out their lives, so naturally that's where the commerce would be. Null-sec, on the other hand, is a frontier, remote and lawless, and in the old days with vast distances between settled systems. So unless you want to offer the builders of EVE some cheap labor in null-sec that we can outsource our workload to, I don't think it makes much sense to move T2 production.
Agreed I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3622
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:50:00 -
[178] - Quote
Can't you answer the question? Surely if tilting one part of industrial activity towards 0.0 is "breaking the sandbox" then tilting all parts of industrial activity to hi-sec is breaking it, scattering the sand and replacing it with broken glass and rusty razor wire?
How is giving hi-sec every possible advantage in industrial activity "sandboxy"? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:51:00 -
[179] - Quote
So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP....so presumably folks doing FW will buy them with their LP/ISK and then put them on the market, so us bottom feeder Tech 2 producers can still operate. Will these guys even have to have the prerequisite skills to get them?
Right now what I've been doing is using the datacores I aquire through my standings and skills to research blueprints, so I can go on to manufacture the goods. I assume in this new scheme I can buy the datacores at a vastly inflated price from the market to continue to do this? Margins are kinda squeeky close on some of the stuff you can manufacture as it is, so I assume this will essentially crush the ability to make any money doing tech 2 production UNLESS you are participating in FW?
Is there any wiggle room in this new paradigm? Can I still make a profit on tech 2 without doing FW somehow?
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3622
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:55:00 -
[180] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP....so presumably folks doing FW will buy them with their LP/ISK and then put them on the market, so us bottom feeder Tech 2 producers can still operate. Will these guys even have to have the prerequisite skills to get them?
Right now what I've been doing is using the datacores I aquire through my standings and skills to research blueprints, so I can go on to manufacture the goods. I assume in this new scheme I can buy the datacores at a vastly inflated price from the market to continue to do this? Margins are kinda squeeky close on some of the stuff you can manufacture as it is, so I assume this will essentially crush the ability to make any money doing tech 2 production UNLESS you are participating in FW?
Is there any wiggle room in this new paradigm? Can I still make a profit on tech 2 without doing FW somehow?
You realise that you can drop in and out of the NPC FW corps at will, right? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:57:00 -
[181] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Can't you answer the question? Surely if tilting one part of industrial activity towards 0.0 is "breaking the sandbox" then tilting all parts of industrial activity to hi-sec is breaking it, scattering the sand and replacing it with broken glass and rusty razor wire?
How is giving hi-sec every possible advantage in industrial activity "sandboxy"?
Im not good at arguing is why. Please note the difference between me being **** at debate and me not being able to defend my position because youre right - cause youre not. Im just one of those ppl ppl like you LOVE to debate with because I do it in fact so poorly that ppl like yuo will tromp all over me every time and stroke your ego lol
So I perfer to agree with ppl in quotes and let someone who can argue come into the thread while you shriek in impotent rage.
GL with that
Mara Rinn wrote:Malcanis wrote:I think you're neglecting the huge effective subsidies that hi-sec manufacturing recieves compared to 0.0 The greatest subsidy that hisec gets to manufacturing is the number of people in hisec allowed to do manufacturing. As a result, there is always a supply of near- or below-cost material for you to work with for T1 manufacture. Noone has to worry where their next load of Tritanium is going to come from. In nullsec, mining is an express pass on the ridicule bus. If you're not shot by blues, you'll be labelled a bot if not kicked from corp. People who manage to maintain an industrial lifestyle in null sec are the exception, not the rule. Even in supposedly "industry friendly" corporations, you are still expected to be able to fly approved fleet fits in mandatory fleet fights. The funniest joke in the game is the null sec alliances complaining that it's hard to get serious industrialists out to null sec, then in the same breath they laugh about the industrial corp they tricked into flying billions of ISK worth of ships and bootstrapping resources through EC-P8R. This talk of "farms and fields" from The Mittani is the greatest joke of all: he's not interested in farms and fields as activities to occupy his industrialists with: he just wants more stuff (for his minions) to blow up. Malcanis is neglecting the huge effective disincentives to null sec manufacturing which have absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics, very little to do with carrot, and a hell of a lot to do with stick.
that too
Killer Gandry wrote:Null sec just want's it easier to dominate the game.
Goons just want it easier to ruin your game.
CCP just want's to cater to them more because they succesfully took metagaming to a new level.
New players and old vets alike who want to spend most or all of their time in hi sec for whatever reason have their place at the bottom of the foodchain.
The sandbox is dead and the linear game is born. CCP threw the baby out with the bathwater when they started to set directions and "endgame goals" in the game and fabricate directions towards a certain playstyle and section in the game. Favouritism prevails and the beginning of the end takes yet another step.
as well I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 13:58:00 -
[182] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:jack morrigan wrote:dear CCP this datacore chamge along with the removal of drone salvage is just the latest attack on indipendent hi/sec t2 industry , if the purpose of these attacks is to force us into lagre alliance's you lose i'm don't pay my subscription just to be controled by someone i have a boss in R/L , i'll just find another game to play Did you know that there are areas of 0.0 that aren't controlled by "lagre" alliances?
Did you know theyre so because theyre worthless?
I'm a little tea pot, short and stout... this is my handle, SMASH THE TEA POT, IT'S EVIL! IT DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE DIE! DIE! DIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!-á "When a Malkavian speaks, listen. When a Malkavian acts, leave. When two Malkavians gather, run." Ah,Word Eater. I kne |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3622
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:00:00 -
[183] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Malcanis wrote:Can't you answer the question? Surely if tilting one part of industrial activity towards 0.0 is "breaking the sandbox" then tilting all parts of industrial activity to hi-sec is breaking it, scattering the sand and replacing it with broken glass and rusty razor wire?
How is giving hi-sec every possible advantage in industrial activity "sandboxy"? Im not good at arguing is why. Please note the difference between me being **** at debate and me not being able to defend my position because youre right - cause youre not. Im just one of those ppl ppl like you LOVE to debate with because I do it in fact so poorly that ppl like yuo will tromp all over me every time and stroke your ego lol So I perfer to agree with ppl in quotes and let someone who can argue come into the thread while you shriek in impotent rage. GL with that
Well it seems like you're the one "shrieking with impotent rage" and I'm trying to understand why. If you can't give a coherent reason as to why you're right, and I can, then you might want to consider the possibility that it's because I'm right and you're not.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Francisco Bizzaro
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:05:00 -
[184] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP.... Really? But there was a guy earlier in this thread who said:
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3622
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:15:00 -
[185] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Malcanis wrote:jack morrigan wrote:dear CCP this datacore chamge along with the removal of drone salvage is just the latest attack on indipendent hi/sec t2 industry , if the purpose of these attacks is to force us into lagre alliance's you lose i'm don't pay my subscription just to be controled by someone i have a boss in R/L , i'll just find another game to play Did you know that there are areas of 0.0 that aren't controlled by "lagre" alliances? Did you know theyre so because theyre worthless?
No, that actually comes as something of a surprise to me. Now I feel a bit let down about the 9 Dramiel and 2 Cynabal BPCs I got on Tuesday evening, plus the 91 Gallente Fleet Col. I tags (almost enough for 2 CN BCU BPCs)
1.2 billion ISK doesn't go as far as it used to I guess. I'll try harder tonight to make up for the worthlessness of the space I'm forced to inhabit. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:22:00 -
[186] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP....so presumably folks doing FW will buy them with their LP/ISK and then put them on the market, so us bottom feeder Tech 2 producers can still operate. Will these guys even have to have the prerequisite skills to get them?
Right now what I've been doing is using the datacores I aquire through my standings and skills to research blueprints, so I can go on to manufacture the goods. I assume in this new scheme I can buy the datacores at a vastly inflated price from the market to continue to do this? Margins are kinda squeeky close on some of the stuff you can manufacture as it is, so I assume this will essentially crush the ability to make any money doing tech 2 production UNLESS you are participating in FW?
Is there any wiggle room in this new paradigm? Can I still make a profit on tech 2 without doing FW somehow?
You realise that you can drop in and out of the NPC FW corps at will, right?
Yep, but why would I? I have no interest at all in FW. Forcing me to participate won't work because I'm not going to spend liesure time doing something I don't want to do, even if that something enables something else. I have really limited game time, sadly, due to life. I love EvE though, so I still play in a limited capacity...ie tech 2 production/market/mining. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
246
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:24:00 -
[187] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP.... Really? But there was a guy earlier in this thread who said: CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.
Fair enough, as long as the "small pricetag" doesn't crush the margins to the point of non-viability. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 14:54:00 -
[188] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP.... Completely incorrect.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1229956#post1229956
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1363
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:11:00 -
[189] - Quote
My industry characters, like most who focus their characters, fly indys, transports, freighters and JFs. It takes near 10m SP in ship skills and another 10m SP in science, not to mention all the building and efficiency skills, to build a good inventor/builder.
You spend months and months grinding standing via courier missions to unlock level 4 research.
Then CCP comes along and says, " Sorry you wasted all that time and training., but you need to shoot stuff for datacores now and become a war target while you do it."
Cool. So now I get to jump into lowsec through the most heavily camped gates in the game in my mighty Iteron and fight wars so that I can get some datacores that fail nine times out of ten in invention runs.
Time to start stockpiling T2 people. If this goes through you will be rich since T2 will become more rare than faction stuff.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:22:00 -
[190] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP....so presumably folks doing FW will buy them with their LP/ISK and then put them on the market, so us bottom feeder Tech 2 producers can still operate. Will these guys even have to have the prerequisite skills to get them?
Right now what I've been doing is using the datacores I aquire through my standings and skills to research blueprints, so I can go on to manufacture the goods. I assume in this new scheme I can buy the datacores at a vastly inflated price from the market to continue to do this? Margins are kinda squeeky close on some of the stuff you can manufacture as it is, so I assume this will essentially crush the ability to make any money doing tech 2 production UNLESS you are participating in FW?
Is there any wiggle room in this new paradigm? Can I still make a profit on tech 2 without doing FW somehow?
You realise that you can drop in and out of the NPC FW corps at will, right?
You realize T2 industrialists likley have a POS for research??? and you realize that this POS is likely in hisec??? So leaving the corp isn't really an option, less you dismantle your corp just to go farm some LP for datacores.
Oh wait, now I need another alt.
One glaring thing occurs to me. How many of us have alts? LOTS Why do we have alts? Perhaps we were looking for other ways to make ISK. Why do we need so much ISK? Well the rewards for the playstyle I was in made it incredibly hard to afford that next ship tier.
In my eyes, all of this is from a poor rewards system to begin with. Whether it be industry, mining, ratting, missioning, etc We have nearly all tried to find other ways to supplement our main characters efforts and wallet, in the form of trading, DC's, PI, etc.
What does CCP do.... They have put an all out assault on these forms of income. What do we see as a result? Skyrocketing costs of all in game items.
Perhaps if the rewards system was better, we could do as they want and just go shoot other ships. It's often voiced that a PvP player has an alt to generate isk so they can PvP. Instead, all of these nerfs to the passive, or semi-passsive income only create the need for us to spend more time generating ISK.
ISK drives your game, stop making it harder to aquire. |
|
Belloche
Revelation Exploration Inc. Without Remorse.
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:36:00 -
[191] - Quote
All, Just checked on the latest build of SISI. They are HALVING the amount of datacores you get and adding an isk cost. Instead of costing 50RP for a mechanical engineering datacore it now costs 100RP and 10k isk per mechanical engineering datcore. So my 80M isk a month from running 5 agents will now be worth 40M.
here is a screen shot: Datacore costs
Malcanis, How about making it so that all the alliances in 0.0 should not be able to control who docks at their outposts and have open build slots. After all, you currently can't restrict who docks and builds in high sec. When all of 0.0 is open to ANYONE to dock and build, then it will be a level playing field. That would be a level playing field, right? |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security
35
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 15:45:00 -
[192] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Can't you answer the question? Surely if tilting one part of industrial activity towards 0.0 is "breaking the sandbox" then tilting all parts of industrial activity to hi-sec is breaking it, scattering the sand and replacing it with broken glass and rusty razor wire?
How is giving hi-sec every possible advantage in industrial activity "sandboxy"? I chose this, of all you comments Malcanis. And I'll answer your first question with one word. Technetium.
Now I'll ramble on. In the T2 production cycle, HiSec has the following items in plentiful supply (or at least, easy to get):
Low-end minerals Virtually unlimited production lines in stations Agents with Datacores for T2 invention T1 BPOs from NPC stations.
LoSec has: ... ... Agents with Datacores for T2 invention Available R&D slots in stations for BP research & copying Towers for moon goo reactions Limited Technetium ...
NullSec has: High end Minerals Limited production lines in stations (including R&D) Capital and Supercapital Construction Platforms Towers for moon go reactions Technetium More Technetium did I mention Technetium?
I'm in favor of improving the ability to produce in Nullsec. But realistically, the three areas of space should have some interdependency, and throwing datacores in Faction War does not move datacores to LoSec, it moves datacores to a singular aspect of of LoSec that inherently excludes access to 50% of empire (including racial datacores).
Nullsec already has a virtual monopoly on T2 production by the simple existence of Technetium without an alchemical alternative. The fact that that production happens in Empire has NOTHING to do with R&D agents providing datacores instead of an LP store. EVERY SINGLE T2 item in the game REQUIRES Technetium. All of the other changes to ANY production system are virtually IRRELEVANT with that TEN-TON ELEPHANT sitting in the corner.
A Patch from CCP that fixed T2 production and Technetium would do more for this game than any of the things happening in Inferno. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
387
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:05:00 -
[193] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Then CCP comes along and says, " Sorry you wasted all that time and training., but you need to shoot stuff for datacores now and become a war target while you do it."
Completely incorrect.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1229956#post1229956
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. But do carry on, your amusing as always....
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:20:00 -
[194] - Quote
Belloche wrote:All, Just checked on the latest build of SISI. They are HALVING the amount of datacores you get and adding an isk cost. Instead of costing 50RP for a mechanical engineering datacore it now costs 100RP and 10k isk per mechanical engineering datcore. So my 80M isk a month from running 5 agents will now be worth 40M. here is a screen shot: Datacore costsMalcanis, How about making it so that all the alliances in 0.0 should not be able to control who docks at their outposts and have open build slots. After all, you currently can't restrict who docks and builds in high sec. When all of 0.0 is open to ANYONE to dock and build, then it will be a level playing field. That would be a level playing field, right?
Thanks for the screen shot, and the info. I made my regular 2 month run yesterday to pick up my datacores. If you think this doesn't have an in game cost of time.... Total round trip for my four lv4 agents... 84 jumps. That's not AFK either when you are carrying these things.
Now, I actually use my datacores, and it's not even enough to supply me what I need for the two months it takes to accrue them. So I'm not farming ISK. I will now have to buy twice as many datacores off the market (perhaps all, because it's hardly worth running around getting them anymore). The cost of your T2 mods, and ships is going up, because you just reduced my profit margins. (If it isn't profitable it doesn't get produced.)
I can't believe the amount of time I spent grinding those agents. The costs of the skills, and time training.
T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.
I don't know why we all bother posting our thoughts here. CCP already made their decision obviously. They really don't care what we have to say. The only thing that will get their attention is a player protest as happened last year. |
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:25:00 -
[195] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Then CCP comes along and says, " Sorry you wasted all that time and training., but you need to shoot stuff for datacores now and become a war target while you do it." Completely incorrect. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1229956#post1229956CCP Soundwave wrote:We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.
We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details. But do carry on, your amusing as always....
The point trying to be made was that it's no longer worth running R&D agents for return on investment. A 50 % reduction in RP rates effectively kills the incentive to train or build standings with the R&D corp.
Not very amusing at all when you have made that kind of commitment to a career path.
As another poster pointed out, it takes years of accumulation to make up for the time invested. Now it would have been better spent just running lv4 missions. |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:32:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP, did you get feedback on this R&D change from the CSM? Either CSM6 or CSM7? Both? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:37:00 -
[197] - Quote
The various cores will be split among the militias and even with variable pricing in the LP store, they will crash and hard as FW LP will become a lot (as in "thats a lot of zeroes!) easier to acquire.
LP for plexing, for killing, for system flips, for missions and just about anything else FW related .. so effectively infinite LP for anyone at any time. Personally consider the whole thing a stealth-boost to invention (and by extension a stealth-nerf to BPOs) as lower costs will put it very close to BPO holder performance after volume is factored in. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:41:00 -
[198] - Quote
Kesker wrote:The point trying to be made was that it's no longer worth running R&D agents for return on investment. A 50 % reduction in RP rates effectively kills the incentive to train or build standings with the R&D corp.
Not very amusing at all when you have made that kind of commitment to a career path.
As another poster pointed out, it takes years of accumulation to make up for the time invested. Now it would have been better spent just running lv4 missions. I get his point. My agents are going to be impacted exactly the same way...
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
46
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:45:00 -
[199] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:jack morrigan wrote:dear CCP this datacore chamge along with the removal of drone salvage is just the latest attack on indipendent hi/sec t2 industry , if the purpose of these attacks is to force us into lagre alliance's you lose i'm don't pay my subscription just to be controled by someone i have a boss in R/L , i'll just find another game to play Did you know that there are areas of 0.0 that aren't controlled by "lagre" alliances?
Yes. Those are the areas that are conquered by large alliances, and then rented out for profit.
|
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
47
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:59:00 -
[200] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:As a compromise, how would you feel if conditions for hi-seccers trying to do industry and invention were merely made the same as in 0.0?
I presume a level playing field would be optimum for promoting "the sandbox" in your eyes?
Noone ever said that. There's no ABC ores in high-sec, no dysp and tech moons. Sandbox does not equal level playing field or conformity, it means that you get to chose what you want to do and where you want to do it.
When CCP Soundwave states that they would like to see T2 production move to 0.0, that points to CCP visions of streamlining the game play experience to one where you progress from high-sec to low-sec and finally null-sec, which is a linear progression rather than an open and free experience.
If you watched the fanfest panels and listen to CCP's podcasts it's not uncommon to hear such sentiments, that they would like more 'empire carebears' to move into low- and null-sec and take up PVP, but I think it's a big mistake for CCP to try and define what we should all be doing.
The success of this game has always come from the formulae that CCP gives us the tools and we do what we want with them (until we break them).
|
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Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
27
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:00:00 -
[201] - Quote
when it was on sisi last night, it was like this:
rp rate is halved from agents, datacores all cost 10k isk and 100 rp from the agents.
militia lp store, offers were 5 datacores for 1000 lp and 1m isk.
Amarr lp store has: Amarr starship engineering, graviton physics, high energy physics, laser physics, nanite engineering
Caldari lp store has: Caldari starship engineering, hydromagnetic physics, quantum physics, rocket science
Gallente lp store has: Gallente starship engineering, electronic engineering, electromagnetic physics, plasma physics
Minmatar lp store has: Minmatar starship engineering, mechanical engineering, molecular engineering, nuclear physics.
No science skills are needed to get the offers. Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/ |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
388
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:03:00 -
[202] - Quote
Kariva wrote:Some People don't wont to PVP is that so HARD to understand CCP....??? When you adjust an order on the market, you pvp... When you create contracts *just* below someone else' contract, you pvp... When you grind standings so that you get that 1.5% better refine than someone else, you pvp... When you kill rats you are effectively pvp'ing against anyone else who wants to shoot rats (their gone when they look, because of your actions)... PVP isn't just "target, press f1" - it's dam near *everything* in eve with the possible exception of "request mission" & "complete mission".
And apparently, CCP likes it that way, because (you know) they've coded it that way...
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
907
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:04:00 -
[203] - Quote
Kesker wrote: T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.
POS fuel costs have not changed much in a very long time.
(small/medium/large, millions of ISK per 30 days)
Oct 2011 - 150-175 / 231-276 / 392-482 Dec 2011 - 125 / 230 / 440 Feb 2012 - 95 / 190 / 380 Apr 2012 - 100 / 200 / 400
If anything, running a small/medium tower got a good bit cheaper once fuel blocks arrived on the scene. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:08:00 -
[204] - Quote
Kesker wrote:T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.
I don't know why we all bother posting our thoughts here. CCP already made their decision obviously. They really don't care what we have to say. The only thing that will get their attention is a player protest as happened last year.
I had to pull my tower down recently because of this. What I had planned to do was put it back up in bursts to try and conserve fuel costs, by building up enough fuel through PI to run it for a stretch, blitz the thing with research jobs, then pull it down again after I had enough successes to do a decent manufacturing blitz. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:23:00 -
[205] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: POS fuel costs have not changed much in a very long time.
(small/medium/large, millions of ISK per 30 days)
Oct 2011 - 150-175 / 231-276 / 392-482 Dec 2011 - 125 / 230 / 440 Feb 2012 - 95 / 190 / 380 Apr 2012 - 100 / 200 / 400
If anything, running a small/medium tower got a good bit cheaper once fuel blocks arrived on the scene.
I'm sure you are correct, but yields from PI went down. So if you are like me, and make your own fuel (I even mine my own ice), there's less of it on hand. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
369
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:34:00 -
[206] - Quote
This is how a typical miner / builder in null sec thinks:
Mine ABC's only to have maximal Isk per hour ratio. Refine and keep Zydrine and Megacyte required to build aside and use the almost perfectly safe way of JB's and titanbridges to haul the rest to Empire Sell the excess zydrine and megacyte and buy low ends. Compress the low ends and use the virtually safe way of jumpdrives to get back. For real easy transport get capships, jump them back and reprocess.
In null sec sov space the Isk per hour ratio is virtually a holy mantra. Just looking at the various sites you will see Sanctums and Havens farmed to death. The lesser ones get glanced at at times for various reasons, but the overall Isk per hour is too low to bother with them.
However if hi sec wants to do maximal Isk per hour the null sec sov bears quickly start to use their batphone and voila, more nerfs in favour of null sec and then the mandatory HTFU.
You play the game as directed or you just have to suffor more and more the consequences.
The hypocracy of even calling it a Sandbox nowadays is absurd. Instead of fixing the real issues they cater towards their "Homies" and all is well.
Make the route to get the low ends to null sec more of a pain in the butt. There isn't really a harsh null sec unless you talk about NPC null sec. Cyno jammers all over the place, plenty of PoS to safe up or warp to safespot and cloak up. There is plenty of intell about a hostile or hostiles.
All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.
In hi sec the use of directional scanner is a must, in null sec you can see in local if someone doesn't belong before you even start using the directional scanner.
|
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
52
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:50:00 -
[207] - Quote
I have 5 hisec datacore agents and I think this is a great move by CCP. Passive isk income from hisec activities are in need of a nerf. |
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:01:00 -
[208] - Quote
I agree all passive income sources should be nerfed but lets start on the big earners first and completely scrap moon mining and replace it with a PI style system until ring mining or whatever is ready. |
Jaangel
Cloak and Badgers
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:01:00 -
[209] - Quote
AFk wealth is great.
Leave data cores alone.
|
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:03:00 -
[210] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Kesker wrote: T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.
POS fuel costs have not changed much in a very long time. (small/medium/large, millions of ISK per 30 days) Oct 2011 - 150-175 / 231-276 / 392-482 Dec 2011 - 125 / 230 / 440 Feb 2012 - 95 / 190 / 380 Apr 2012 - 100 / 200 / 400 If anything, running a small/medium tower got a good bit cheaper once fuel blocks arrived on the scene.
Bob, I respect you and all you have done for the game. Even a past uni member here.
However, my history doesn't show this at all. Hard to make a direct comparison as fuel costs used to be dependent on the arrays you were running. A small research POS used to cost me around 86mil per month. Using recent price averages I costed at 15k per unit, and it's 7200 units for a small pos, so 108mil. (Damn I just looked at current prices in my region, and they are now 18000 per fuel block. The cost of running that small pos just went up 21mil in the last week.)
The fuel blocks benefited larger corps, and industry operations, that run varied arrays on a Med / Lg POS. The small emergent industrialist is who took the hit. |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
907
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:10:00 -
[211] - Quote
Block prices are up to 18k ISK/u right now because Isotopes have gone up to 900-1000 ISK/u due to HAG5. Come back in a month and they'll be back down in the 500-650 range. Plus, you should always make your own fuel blocks. It is not an expensive investment (20-25M for a perfectly researched BPO on contracts) or a big time cost (you can make a month of fuel for a large tower in about 30-35 hours in a station slot).
October prices have to assume full LOz/HW usage. Which, even for a larger tower back then (assuming you didn't max out one or the other) only changed the total numbers by 5-10%. No matter which way you sliced it, fuel pellets were cheaper then the old-style fueling for small towers. If you ran your tower at maximum LOz usage, then it was a big savings. If you didn't max out your LOz usage, it wasn't as much savings, but still some.
The current isotope price spike also goes to show why you should maintain a 2-3 month supply of fuel, so you can ride out the semi-annual spikes in the market caused by HAG / interdiction efforts. |
Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
104
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:16:00 -
[212] - Quote
You know, I would do FW if I didn't have to leave my corp to do so.
It's just not practical, particularly for someone involved in science and industry, for a variety of reasons. |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security
39
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:16:00 -
[213] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote: All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.
In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again? |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
Kesker wrote:Malcanis wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP....so presumably folks doing FW will buy them with their LP/ISK and then put them on the market, so us bottom feeder Tech 2 producers can still operate. Will these guys even have to have the prerequisite skills to get them?
Right now what I've been doing is using the datacores I aquire through my standings and skills to research blueprints, so I can go on to manufacture the goods. I assume in this new scheme I can buy the datacores at a vastly inflated price from the market to continue to do this? Margins are kinda squeeky close on some of the stuff you can manufacture as it is, so I assume this will essentially crush the ability to make any money doing tech 2 production UNLESS you are participating in FW?
Is there any wiggle room in this new paradigm? Can I still make a profit on tech 2 without doing FW somehow?
You realise that you can drop in and out of the NPC FW corps at will, right? You realize T2 industrialists likley have a POS for research??? and you realize that this POS is likely in hisec??? So leaving the corp isn't really an option, less you dismantle your corp just to go farm some LP for datacores. Oh wait, now I need another alt.
One glaring thing occurs to me. How many of us have alts? LOTS Why do we have alts? Perhaps we were looking for other ways to make ISK. Why do we need so much ISK? Well the rewards for the playstyle I was in made it incredibly hard to afford that next ship tier. In my eyes, all of this is from a poor rewards system to begin with. Whether it be industry, mining, ratting, missioning, etc We have nearly all tried to find other ways to supplement our main characters efforts and wallet, in the form of trading, DC's, PI, etc. What does CCP do.... They have put an all out assault on these forms of income. What do we see as a result? Skyrocketing costs of all in game items. Perhaps if the rewards system was better, we could do as they want and just go shoot other ships. It's often voiced that a PvP player has an alt to generate isk so they can PvP. Instead, all of these nerfs to the passive, or semi-passsive income only create the need for us to spend more time generating ISK. ISK drives your game, stop making it harder to aquire.
While this may not benefit CCP, it most certainly benefits RMT.
|
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:21:00 -
[215] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote:Killer Gandry wrote: All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.
In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?
Well, you already knew this, but I'll repeat it for the people who don't know you are a lying Goon.
In High Sec, I CAN NOT know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.
In Null Sec, I CAN know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel.
This makes it much, much, almost infinitely, easier to avoid ganks in Null Sec. |
Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
99
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:26:00 -
[216] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote:
In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?
Thank you for answering your own question and saving me the trouble of doing so.
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
350
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:26:00 -
[217] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Brunaburh wrote:Killer Gandry wrote: All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.
In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again? Well, you already knew this, but I'll repeat it for the people who don't know you are a lying Goon. In High Sec, I CAN NOT know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel. In Null Sec, I CAN know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel. This makes it much, much, almost infinitely, easier to avoid ganks in Null Sec.
This is drooling ****** speak here. Nullsec space is made safe by the players making it that way. There is no NPC police force bringing the fear of god into potential gankers. There are literally a million reasons why nullsec is more dangerous and risky than highsec. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:30:00 -
[218] - Quote
I can see CCP being vindictive enough to make these changes throughout the game and then offer what used to be available through their albatross known as the Nex store...
No, I am not liking it either. |
Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
99
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:30:00 -
[219] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: This is drooling ****** speak here. Nullsec space is made safe by the players making it that way. There is no NPC police force bringing the fear of god into potential gankers. There are literally a million reasons why nullsec is more dangerous and risky than highsec.
Sov null-sec in and of itself is not dangerous. Getting out there may be sketchy, unless you have something with a jump drive.
But once you are actually in your home system, life couldn't be more safe. You have intel channels that let you know of hostiles jumps away. You have local that instantly tells you what everyone is there to do (blue=not shot you, not blue=shoot you). You have fewer people, so the chances of running into a "not blue" are less.
I've lived in pretty much every region of EVE at one point or another, and nothing makes me more nervous than flying through highsec in anything of value.
Well, maybe rancer is more dangerous than high-sec, but that's different.
|
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
111
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:32:00 -
[220] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Jessie-A Tassik wrote:Brunaburh wrote:Killer Gandry wrote: All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.
In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again? Well, you already knew this, but I'll repeat it for the people who don't know you are a lying Goon. In High Sec, I CAN NOT know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel. In Null Sec, I CAN know if someone is there to kill me by just looking at the Local channel. This makes it much, much, almost infinitely, easier to avoid ganks in Null Sec. This is drooling ****** speak here. Nullsec space is made safe by the players making it that way. There is no NPC police force bringing the fear of god into potential gankers. There are literally a million reasons why nullsec is more dangerous and risky than highsec.
Is it even possible for me to lose a Hulk in Null Sec if I pay any attention at all to Local?
How exactly do I lose it?
I'm watching Local and a non blue shows up.
I leave drones, and warp to deep safe spot and log.
How do I lose my Hulk?
HOW? |
|
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
51
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 18:39:00 -
[221] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.
While there is some truth to that statement, you must take into account that having a 'safe' carebear haven in null-sec is based on diplomatic relations, sovereignty mechanics and having a large enough PVP fleet to defend your space if required.
Nobody is saying that CCP should make empire an overly safe carebear zone. It would be nice if they would acknowledge that two thirds of the games population live there though, and perhaps pay some attention to the voices of this majority instead of catering so much to the null-sec alliances.
|
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
371
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:32:00 -
[222] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote: In nullsec (Sovereign Nullsec) if you see a single neut in local, he's there to kill you. That's not true in HiSec. So how is Nullsec safer again?
I think you answered the question in the same very statement.
In null sec it's easy to see who might be out to get you. As for it being kept safe by players. It's not the players that keep it safe, it's the ridiculous sov system that does most of that. The players mainly play reinforcetimer blobwars.
Once you have the sov then all you really need is numbers. And nothing flocks better than a herd of CFC sheep.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 20:38:00 -
[223] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I think you're neglecting the huge effective subsidies that hi-sec manufacturing recieves compared to 0.0 Forgive my ignorance but as someone who hasn't partaken in nullsec industry could you expand a bit on this? |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
242
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 20:54:00 -
[224] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
You're eliminating mining with guns and but planning on replacing it with researching with guns.
These changes not only detract from Researching as a profession (Careers#Researcher (evelopedia)) they actually decimate it. Most of these science skills(evelopedia) become pointless.
The impact on this character alone is :
- 11 Million skill points in science now pointless.
- One years training wasted
- 240 Million ISK in skill books
And I have two more researchers. The total impact of this is about 600 Million ISK in science skill books, around 30 Million SP in science and over two years training time.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6373
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 20:58:00 -
[225] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote:And I have two more researchers. The total impact of this is about 600 Million ISK in science skill books, around 30 Million SP in science and over two years training time. GǪwhich you can still use for things other than simple RP collection (and for RP collection as well, since it's not going away). None of your SP or training time is wasted unless you choose to waste it by not making use of it.
Have a look in EVEMon what those skills can be used for and start doing that in addition to RP harvesting. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Cmdr Tarlton
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 22:56:00 -
[226] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price. At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut. Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries? Mining with guns, all over again. Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly? We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
Why not just take out the security level system and make the whole universe null. I'm sure the pvp lovers would cream themselves over that. Pushing things to low sec is simply forcing people who don't play eve for pvp ... to play for pvp and guess what... when I can't play how I want to without pvp then I won't play. Move lvl 4 missions to low sec and I'm done. You won't be able to do any missions without pvp. Pirates will be everywhere. Nobody even bothers with lvl 5s for that reason. You need to wake up and realize that not of your business comes with pvp players. There are a significant player base who don't want pvp 23/7. We know how to get to low sec if we want pvp. It's bad enough we can't join a corporation without having our play time ruined by war after war after war. So either cater to both sides or cater to your pvp base. I promise you though if you keep choosing your pvp base over your non pvp base you're not going to have a non-pvp base and your pvp crowd will not have any non pvpers to grief on and they will quit too. Wake up CCP. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1371
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 23:03:00 -
[227] - Quote
CCP Soundwave seems to be using the old 'carrot and stick' approach to get people into low/null.
Trouble is, he forgot the carrot and is only using the stick. I think this will come back to haunt him, to be honest.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 00:31:00 -
[228] - Quote
This is good news for people who don't mind a little risk and a step in the right direction towards buffing FW. Also the news for the high sec harvesters isn't that bad because over time prices will adjust anyway. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
908
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 01:24:00 -
[229] - Quote
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:This is good news for people who don't mind a little risk and a step in the right direction towards buffing FW. Also the news for the high sec harvesters isn't that bad because over time prices will adjust anyway.
The problem with this is that:
- WTF do the faction warfare corps have to do with R&D from a lore standpoint?
- Nerfing the rate of passive RP accumulation or raising the cost of datacores is going to raise the prices of invented T2 gear.
The proper approach would have been:
a) Leave existing passive R&D mechanics alone. Leave RP/datacore prices alone. Don't move player's cheese if you don't have to.
b) Increase the amount of RP that you get as a reward from the daily mission. Boost it enough that it's worth doing those daily missions. Right now, those daily missions are only worth about a few hundred thousand ISK/day. And because L4 R&D agents are spread around, nobody wants to bother flying 20-30 jumps per day just to earn 2-3 million ISK worth of datacores.
c) Add datacores to the R&D NPC corp LP stores.
d) Go ahead and add things to the FW LP store - I think datacores are a bad thing because they don't have anything to do with the lore of the FW NPC corps. BPCs for combat hulls / modules would be a far better fit.
e) If you have high standings with the corp in question, you should get a 10-30% discount on goods from that NPC store.
Increased supply would turn down the payback on passive R&D point earning another notch over time, giving people time to figure out that it's becoming an even more marginal income method. Right now, payback for (5) R&D L4 agents is already 30-60 days. By boosting the supply sources, you gradually wean people off while moving them towards more active production of datacores. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
908
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 01:39:00 -
[230] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I think you're neglecting the huge effective subsidies that hi-sec manufacturing recieves compared to 0.0
The reason that hi-sec stations are considered a subsidy is because they don't float based on demand/usage as much as they need to.
Manufacturing fees in Jita, even though there is never a wait of less then 1 day for slots, is still stuck at 1000 ISK install and 800 ISK/hr. That's about 1/10th what it costs to run a POS manufacturing array (plus the hassle of loading the array with materials every few days).
ME research slots top out at around 3000 ISK/hr, even though wait times are 30-40 days. POS labs run around 10k-12k ISK/hr to cover the fuel costs.
PE/Copy/Invent slots all have the same low-ball ISK/hr fees.
CCP needs to let those fees float in a freer manner. Every day at downtime, the station should look at the number of slots in use and boost/lower the ISK/hr and install fees. One formula would be:
- Base per hour rate no lower then 1000 ISK/hr. Lowest install fee should be 1000 ISK (hard lower limit).
- Install fee should be equal to per hour fee. Add a standings discount on the install fee of up to 25% (or a penalty of up to 25%) depending on your standings with the corp that owns the station. A 5.0 standing would get you a 12.5% discount, a 10.0 standing would get you the 25% discount.
- Offer per-hour fee discounts based on standings, but discounts should be no more then 5% at 10.0 standings.
- If the number of slots in use at downtime is >= 75%, then the cost per hour number should be bumped up by 0.05%. Over 85% utilization and the boost should be about 0.40% If the number of slots in use is 100%, then bump the cost per hour by 0.75% that day (linear percentage boost based on the difference between 100% and 75%).
- If the number of slots in use at downtime is < 75%, drop the cost by 0.20% per day. If the number of slots < 25% drop it by about 0.40%. If no slots are in use, drop it by 0.60% that day.
After 6 months to a year, high-demand slots in empire space will be at prices equivalent to what you would pay at a POS tower. After that point, more production / research would have to shift to POS towers to remain cost competitive. |
|
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
18
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 01:49:00 -
[231] - Quote
Instead of adding Datacores to the FW stores, why not give FW pilots something they'll actually use? New shiny ships or modules or something. Industry pilots and FW pilots don't have much, if anything, in common. I'm sure FW pilots would rather have something they can use.
If the goal is to remove passive income, it'd be better to update T2 production. It seems like that's part of the goal, so here's some ideas.
- Change moon goo! I don't know enough about it to make any suggestions on -how- to change it, but I hear plenty of people complaining about it. Perhaps a different way to obtain the all powerful technetium?
- Remove T2 Blueprint Originals. Setting up copy jobs for researched T2 BPOs is as passive as R&D, and it pays better. Replace them with a bunch of max-run copies at their current research level. Then, when they're used up, they're gone. Simple phase-out.
- Move datacores into R&D Corporation LP rewards. Change all the R&D agents into distribution or some other type of agent. This makes datacores something you have to earn actively, and it makes sense with where you have to go to earn them. People who have R&D agents had to get the standings to use them somehow, so it doesn't leave anyone out of the loop. They've got at least one mission runner. It also makes a ton more sense than suddenly having datacores become part of FW.
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 03:22:00 -
[232] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno. I can live with that as long as they cash out the SP that I spent 60 days training to get Research Project Management to level 5 for the sole reason of collecting datacores from the maximum agents. Unless you can still run agents and the FW stuff is in addition too, and not instead of. In any case I will be following this closely as I have a lot of SP over a lot of characters that are dedicated researcher/ inventors. At this point it's mostly speculation and guesses. Mr Epeen I couldn't agree more regarding the reimbursement of skillpoints for a loss in the ability to perform an in-game action.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1328
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 07:39:00 -
[233] - Quote
Louella Dougans wrote:rp rate is halved from agents, datacores all cost 10k isk and 100 rp from the agents.
militia lp store, offers were 5 datacores for 1000 lp and 1m isk.
At first blush, it might seem that the approach that they are taking is not totally foolish. Then again, NeX store items were 10 Aurum each on Singularity before Noble Exchange launched on Tranquility. |
Francisco Bizzaro
83
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 07:55:00 -
[234] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Thomas Kreshant wrote:It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno. I can live with that as long as they cash out the SP that I spent 60 days training to get Research Project Management to level 5 for the sole reason of collecting datacores from the maximum agents. Unless you can still run agents and the FW stuff is in addition too, and not instead of. In any case I will be following this closely as I have a lot of SP over a lot of characters that are dedicated researcher/ inventors. At this point it's mostly speculation and guesses. Mr Epeen I couldn't agree more regarding the reimbursement of skillpoints for a loss in the ability to perform an in-game action. Before you clicked "begin training" and started the 60 day wait for Research Proj. Mgmt. 5, you probably did a calculation of how much extra profit this would make, and how long it would take for that skill to pay for itself. It's a long term investment, with a very good chance that market conditions will be different at the end than at the beginning. Natural market dynamics might have dropped the bottom out of the datacore market (if everyone had jumped on the farming bandwagon). Or a rule change might have come along to change their value.
The latter has happened, and your speculation on long-term datacore futures didn't pay off. Or maybe it did. We don't know yet.
But you're the one who gambled on a long term payoff while knowing that the game changes. I don't see that CCP's rebalancing efforts always need to be hamstrung by player choices like that, otherwise nothing would get done. |
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 10:17:00 -
[235] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:CCP Soundwave seems to be using the old 'carrot and stick' approach to get people into low/null. Trouble is, he forgot the carrot and is only using the stick. I think this will come back to haunt him, to be honest. Mr Epeen
This tbh.
FW is still broken and even in the case it becomes more profitable (highly questionable imo) than other activities it won't attract the risk averse crowd.
And let's assume the DC become the most profitable LP/isk item than you still a large group who either are unaware of this or use their LP for shinies anyway.
So, fix FW first (long long long overdue in any case) before fiddling with mechanics which are not broken atm. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
218
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 12:00:00 -
[236] - Quote
Or maybe make special tech moons in nullsec which can be harvested for datacores directly. Of course, they should be vey rare. Remove all the silly agents. So let there be real competition among the alliances to control T2 production. Down with passive income! This will surely drive to nullsec. For real.
EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
Cys Root
The Oasis Group Combat Mining and Logistics
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 13:59:00 -
[237] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Wyke Mossari wrote:And I have two more researchers. The total impact of this is about 600 Million ISK in science skill books, around 30 Million SP in science and over two years training time. GǪwhich you can still use for things other than simple RP collection (and for RP collection as well, since it's not going away). None of your SP or training time is wasted unless you choose to waste it by not making use of it. Have a look in EVEMon what those skills can be used for and start doing that in addition to RP harvesting.
Research Project Management V is a rank 8 skill, and a memory/charisma skill at that, no one has mem/char mapped...it takes forever to train, and has absolutely no other use than R&D agents.
With most of the science skills level V unlocks absolutely nothing in terms of items or ships, level V is only needed for mat research on a few BPOs...but a bunch more skills are needed for that as well, skills which i don't have, and no I won't be training amarr starship engineering to V just so i can research some paladin BPOs and not have mechanical engineering V stand forever useless on my skillsheet.
5 characters with Research Project Management V, Nanite Engineering V, Mechanical Engineering V, Molecular Engineering V amounts to LOT of time and plex invested in skills and standings...and no there is nothing else they can do with those skills appart from HTFU and keep collecting datacores, except that now instead of collecting 5-6 times a year, ill collect once a year and will probabaly need a freighter. Anything less won't be worth the hassle. |
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:17:00 -
[238] - Quote
Quote:Before you clicked "begin training" and started the 60 day wait for Research Proj. Mgmt. 5, you probably did a calculation of how much extra profit this would make, and how long it would take for that skill to pay for itself. It's a long term investment, with a very good chance that market conditions will be different at the end than at the beginning. Natural market dynamics might have dropped the bottom out of the datacore market (if everyone had jumped on the farming bandwagon). Or a rule change might have come along to change their value.
The latter has happened, and your speculation on long-term datacore futures didn't pay off. Or maybe it did. We don't know yet.
But you're the one who gambled on a long term payoff while knowing that the game changes. I don't see that CCP's rebalancing efforts always need to be hamstrung by player choices like that, otherwise nothing would get done.
And how was this helpful??? insightful???
Useless contribution to the discussion, thanks. |
Ronald Ray Gun
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:27:00 -
[239] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Ronald Ray Gun wrote:This is good news for people who don't mind a little risk and a step in the right direction towards buffing FW. Also the news for the high sec harvesters isn't that bad because over time prices will adjust anyway. The problem with this is that: - WTF do the faction warfare corps have to do with R&D from a lore standpoint? - Nerfing the rate of passive RP accumulation or raising the cost of datacores is going to raise the prices of invented T2 gear. The proper approach would have been: a) Leave existing passive R&D mechanics alone. Leave RP/datacore prices alone. Don't move player's cheese if you don't have to. b) Increase the amount of RP that you get as a reward from the daily mission. Boost it enough that it's worth doing those daily missions. Right now, those daily missions are only worth about a few hundred thousand ISK/day. And because L4 R&D agents are spread around, nobody wants to bother flying 20-30 jumps per day just to earn 2-3 million ISK worth of datacores. c) Add datacores to the R&D NPC corp LP stores. d) Go ahead and add things to the FW LP store - I think datacores are a bad thing because they don't have anything to do with the lore of the FW NPC corps. BPCs for combat hulls / modules would be a far better fit. e) If you have high standings with the corp in question, you should get a 10-30% discount on goods from that NPC store. Increased supply would turn down the payback on passive R&D point earning another notch over time, giving people time to figure out that it's becoming an even more marginal income method. Right now, payback for (5) R&D L4 agents is already 30-60 days. By boosting the supply sources, you gradually wean people off while moving them towards more active production of datacores. CCP want to reduce the amount of profit made by research agents in hisec and reward people taking part in FW/PvP/losec and your idea is to make them more profitable. You are not even on the same page as CCP. |
Francisco Bizzaro
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:31:00 -
[240] - Quote
Kesker wrote:Quote:Before you clicked "begin training" and started the 60 day wait for Research Proj. Mgmt. 5, you probably did a calculation of how much extra profit this would make, and how long it would take for that skill to pay for itself. It's a long term investment, with a very good chance that market conditions will be different at the end than at the beginning. Natural market dynamics might have dropped the bottom out of the datacore market (if everyone had jumped on the farming bandwagon). Or a rule change might have come along to change their value.
The latter has happened, and your speculation on long-term datacore futures didn't pay off. Or maybe it did. We don't know yet.
But you're the one who gambled on a long term payoff while knowing that the game changes. I don't see that CCP's rebalancing efforts always need to be hamstrung by player choices like that, otherwise nothing would get done. And how was this helpful??? insightful??? Useless contribution to the discussion, thanks. Not claiming to be insightful. Especially since I'm pointing out something more or less self-evident.
But people are complaining about how long Research Project Management takes to train. Which is strange, because they knew that from the outset, and could do the calculation for how long it would take to pay for itself. So it's a gamble that the datacore market would remain long-term stable.
I don't see why SP need to be refunded for a speculation that went wrong.
Contribution may have been useless. Or not. Keep it in mind next time you embark on 60 days training for a 1-trick skill with marginal payoff. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6407
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:57:00 -
[241] - Quote
Cys Root wrote:Research Project Management V is a rank 8 skill, and a memory/charisma skill at that, no one has mem/char mapped...it takes forever to train, and has absolutely no other use than R&D agents. GǪand it can still be used.
Quote:With most of the science skills level V unlocks absolutely nothing in terms of items or ships, level V is only needed for mat research on a few BPOs...but a bunch more skills are needed for that as well, skills which i don't have, and no I won't be training amarr starship engineering to V just so i can research some paladin BPOs and not have mechanical engineering V stand forever useless on my skillsheet. That's your choice GÇö you choose to waste your SP, and you can't really blame anyone else for that. You also chose to train those skills to those levels, and if they haven't paid themselves back handsomely by now, you've done something wrong. Now, they've given you a great platform for branching out into other money-making schemes, so what are kvetching about?
If anything your example shows why the change is needed: because the whole thing was so valuable that people did what you did, to the extent you did, and that kind of passive income generation is something that EVE is quite clearly moving away from. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
250
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:16:00 -
[242] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:WTF do the faction warfare corps have to do with R&D from a lore standpoint?
this.
Apparently, Lore and Game Mechanics are non-interchangable entities.
Odd, because the Lore was written to support Game Mechanics - so a change to the Lore is on the table now?
Great...
GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002.
somethingjustgotreal.com |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
247
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:16:00 -
[243] - Quote
I just wish they would tie the aquisition of the datacores directly to industry somehow, instead of FW.
I don't mind so much that they are moving away from passivity, but it's a bit of a shame the datacores won't be tied to the manufacturing skills involved in getting access to them. For example, you could actually trade in a manufactured good for an amount of related datacores or something like that...or trade minerals for them or something aquired through the use of industry itself.
I agree the skills themselves are not being wasted though because you need the skills to manufacture the items in many cases, and it seems that we'll still be able to collect half the current amount of datacores based on the Research Management skill. |
Aredeth
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:30:00 -
[244] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:As for the reference CCP made about Data Cores:
I don't know where CCP got the idea that it's an ATM machine but they are obviously mistaken.
you do know what the 'M' means in ATM right? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1791
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:36:00 -
[245] - Quote
Cerulean Ice wrote:Instead of adding Datacores to the FW stores, why not give FW pilots something they'll actually use? New shiny ships or modules or something. Industry pilots and FW pilots don't have much, if anything, in common. I'm sure FW pilots would rather have something they can use. If the goal is to remove passive income, it'd be better to update T2 production. It seems like that's part of the goal, so here's some ideas.
- Change moon goo! I don't know enough about it to make any suggestions on -how- to change it, but I hear plenty of people complaining about it. Perhaps a different way to obtain the all powerful technetium?
- Remove T2 Blueprint Originals. Setting up copy jobs for researched T2 BPOs is as passive as R&D, and it pays better. Replace them with a bunch of max-run copies at their current research level. Then, when they're used up, they're gone. Simple phase-out.
- Move datacores into R&D Corporation LP rewards. Change all the R&D agents into distribution or some other type of agent. This makes datacores something you have to earn actively, and it makes sense with where you have to go to earn them. People who have R&D agents had to get the standings to use them somehow, so it doesn't leave anyone out of the loop. They've got at least one mission runner. It also makes a ton more sense than suddenly having datacores become part of FW.
To answer some of your points.
Data Cores will be ADDED to the FW stores, along side the existing shiney ships and modules that FW pilots can (but don't often) use.
1: Moo Goo changes are already being discussed, and quite probably will soon end up being produced by a new form of mining (Ring Mining) or possibly even via PI (although the latter is unlikely).
2: T2 originals are fine and serve as a balancing mechanism to the T2 market. People do not do copy jobs from T2 BPO's as this takes FAR longer than simply producing the item. Max ship production from your average T2 BPO is about a ship a day, hardly a detrimental factor.
3: Data Cores will be available from the FW loyalty point store and continue to be available from research agents at a reduced rate. Two competing methods of obtaining them is healthy, and allows both combat and non-combat pilots to compete directly for them. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Francisco Bizzaro
85
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:49:00 -
[246] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:I just wish they would tie the aquisition of the datacores directly to industry somehow, instead of FW. I agree with this. Datacores from FW doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure what they are trying to engineer with that change. It looks like they decided they want to add some incentives to low-sec, and also want to make some adjustments to industry, and thought they could kill two birds with one stone. Or something. vOv
Ranger1 wrote: 3: Data Cores will be available from the FW loyalty point store and continue to be available from research agents at a reduced rate. Two competing methods of obtaining them is healthy, and allows both combat and non-combat pilots to compete directly for them.
Maybe. But since the industry side of the competition amounts to "wait for the RP to accumulate," it doesn't seem like much of a fun race from that side. |
Jouron
Hadon Shipping
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 15:52:00 -
[247] - Quote
I have suggested several times in the past that when FW people would flip a system, the station owners would change after downtime, so from Caldari corporations to gallente corporations or back, this would include R&D corporations within a faction.
I also suggested that In order to redeem LP you would have to do it in these systems even though your could earn the lp the same way you always had. If you did the same thing with data cores, as they come from the factions R&D Corporations, people could earn them at the same rate they always had, they would just have to got to low sec to get them.
The only problem is stopping the FW people from pirating these industry people, and the solution to that, the higher the industrial persons standing with the corp and faction, the higher the standing hit a person would get from the faction they fought for if they blapped that indy. This also gives pirates one more thing to try to pirate in low sec.
This kind of change also could be in done in tandem with letting FW people get Data cores as well with LP.
With this sort of situation every one benefits. People travel to low sec. FW people get more rewards, and Datacore farmers still get there data cores at the same rate they had in the past.
It also achieves another one of soundwaves goals which was having non FW people take an interest in who controls what. If the gallente control all the systems certain Datacores arent being collected, and people will try to influence caldari to retake some stations so other kinds of datacores start flowing.
Lore wise it also makes sense as the empires want to encourage the capsuleers to take space from each other on there behalf, datacores from the R&D corps that work for those empires would definitely play into that game plan.
Soundwave, I get what your trying to do, but there are better compromises to achieve what your going for. Every time theres a change in this game it doesn't have to result with a whole group of people getting disenfranchised. Or at least it shouldn't. Creative gameplay development doesn't have to involve always whacking somebody in the face with a nerf bat. |
Wyehr
Magister Corp Talocan United
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 16:36:00 -
[248] - Quote
There are a lot of posts here from people that have clearly never done serious research. Those posts are hilarious.
At one time, I had intended to train up alts for my spare pilot slots to do research. When I got done grinding up standings for myself and one other pilot, I decided that it was too tedious for me. Probably a good thing too, because the datacore prices tanked pretty hard. And no, I had no idea that I could turn in tags for standing; just learned about that today.
Right now, with 6 level 4 agents and a bunch of level 5 skills, I earn about a billion, maybe a billion and a half, per pilot per year. Not a path to riches by any means, but a decent thing to fall back on if I have a couple of bad months and lose all my stuff.
I had some concern that the proposed changes would make my datacores worthless. But the numbers I've seen suggest that they will simply become worth less, which isn't so bad. 1 million ISK + some FW LP for 5 datacores means that they won't necessarily go under 200k like a bunch of us had been expecting. Of course, that may not be the final number, but it seems pretty reasonable.
I think that faction warfare LP stores are a silly place to find datacores, but that is a different issue. |
Killian Redbeard
Mindhead Cosmic Conditioning
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:12:00 -
[249] - Quote
First off, I don't think FW LP stores should get datacores. Research and Faction Warfare are 2 separate careers.
A couple ideas:
1. Research Agents give out missions. They just give you the system the mission is in, you must scan down the mission site. Rewards are datacores, no isk and no LP. Your choice on the datacores you get based of Agents skills.
2. Remove the research agents as Soundwave wants. Use reverse engineering to create the datacores. Want you can reverse engineer and qty gained from reverse engineering based on your science skills. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
249
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:21:00 -
[250] - Quote
Tippia wrote: None of your SP or training time is wasted unless you choose to waste it by not making use of it.
Have a look in EVEMon what those skills can be used for and start doing that in addition to RP harvesting.
I'm well away of what my research/science skills can be used for, however you seem to be missing the secondary effects of this change.
Most datacore science skills have either limited or no other application. Those science skills that do have another purpose e.g. starship engineering, have very limited utility/few applications. T2 Science skills are relatively high rank (5-8) compared to most skills in EVE.
Take T2 BPO research. This has essentially ended. They have no ongoing need for ME/PE research.
Manufacturing T2 typically requires only level 1 skill in the appropriate science skill.
Invention will be crippled, rising datacore prices will make it increasingly uncompetitive against T2 BPOs.
That leaves, what else exactly...?
|
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ChaeDoc II
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
42
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:43:00 -
[251] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:So long as I get all the science releated SP back, all the skill books to cash out, and what ever I earned all ready I couldn't care. I had already trained those over a year ago, but if they change it to straight up LP conversion in a store I don't have access to then I want the research skills and the research skill pre-req back...was almost 30 days worth of training and I want that back since I can no longer use them nor am I interested at all in any other research as industry building is ******* boring beyond setting some ammo to be built when I need it.
Sure. That can happen. Of course, i'm sure you won't mind returning all the ISK you've made from those datacores too.
|
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:55:00 -
[252] - Quote
Quote: Not claiming to be insightful. Especially since I'm pointing out something more or less self-evident.
But people are complaining about how long Research Project Management takes to train. Which is strange, because they knew that from the outset, and could do the calculation for how long it would take to pay for itself. So it's a gamble that the datacore market would remain long-term stable.
I don't see why SP need to be refunded for a speculation that went wrong. Especially when you can still do what you trained to do: get datacores from RP agents.
Contribution may have been useless. Or not. Keep it in mind next time you embark on 60 days training for a 1-trick skill with marginal payoff.
I think you are just missing the bigger picture.
Sure people are complaining about the time spent training the skills. Even if they didn't train all to lv5 its a massive amount of time and ISK. It's just the same as if someones skilled for a capital, and then CCP cut the effective damage in half. Skill trianing = time = isk = subscription time/$$$. It's not just skills either, you spend a great deal of time grinding missions to get the standing in order to run the lv4 agents. The agents for a particular corp are not anywhere near each other, so you have incredible amount of time spent in running those missions. People with the mind to maximize their T2 industry obviously run alts for more RP generation, sure. You can't possibly get enough datacores from a single toon to have a very profitable T2 production. If these alts were not out there generating RP for datacores, just imagine how much more expensive your T2 mods would be.
Not only is it just the fact that they are cutting the RP in half, they are putting datacore access into the hands of players that have nothing to do with T2 invention, or production at all. These players didn't train anything, or spend any isk for skills, yet they will benefit from the T2 producers who need the datacores. So there is a logical basis for the all the complaints. Whether people are voicing them with regards to the whole picture or not, it's all relevant.
Some people are actually suggesting that this will lower the cost of datacores on the market, and it very well may. That is only up to the point that the lp conversion rate is more profitable than other lp rewards. Is this really a good thing anyway, the reduction of cost in datacores? This very well could also have the affect of enticing many more people into T2 production, because of the lower cost of the datacores. Thus driving down prices of T2 modules and cutting into profit margins. Now your talking decimating, not just my generated datacores, but the sole bases of what I have been training a character for over the last year and a half - T2 production.
The fact of the matter is... they are skrewing over one part of the population (the ones that actually use the datacores) in favor of another. The latter of which doesn't have any basis for generation of datacores. Where does datacores through an LP store fit within the New Eden model?
It's virtually all been said, and the complaints are all in this forum topic. Will CCP listen though? Likely not. Social engineering sucks in RL and it's just as bad in EVE. |
Kesker
Integrated Massive Dynamics
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:58:00 -
[253] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:I just wish they would tie the aquisition of the datacores directly to industry somehow, instead of FW.
I don't mind so much that they are moving away from passivity, but it's a bit of a shame the datacores won't be tied to the manufacturing skills involved in getting access to them. For example, you could actually trade in a manufactured good for an amount of related datacores or something like that...or trade minerals for them or something aquired through the use of industry itself.
I agree the skills themselves are not being wasted though because you need the skills to manufacture the items in many cases, and it seems that we'll still be able to collect half the current amount of datacores based on the Research Management skill.
Now that is much more sensible, and simple solution. |
Nlex
Domini Canium
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 21:03:00 -
[254] - Quote
Am I understanding it right? "Research" is not made an active gameplay venue, but datacores' influx from it is to be nerfed. And there's another way to get them by shooting things, not connected to any science? I really don't think it's a good change. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
378
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 22:24:00 -
[255] - Quote
CCP slowly takes the Microsoft route more and more.
Mess up stuff with new material and if the uproar is big enough change it back. If the uproar is only mild then screw em.
|
Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:41:00 -
[256] - Quote
All i know is this: I have two accts, 1 combat char on each, rest of the slots are RnD alts. If this change goes thru, my option is pretty simple... Transfer the second combat char to the first acct, and close the second acct
Sure ccp gets a plex outta me for the transfer, but theyll have to eat the second acct sub loss
Not mad... Shrug... Just sayin...
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess! |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
125
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 02:43:00 -
[257] - Quote
ChaeDoc II wrote:Aqriue wrote:So long as I get all the science releated SP back, all the skill books to cash out, and what ever I earned all ready I couldn't care. I had already trained those over a year ago, but if they change it to straight up LP conversion in a store I don't have access to then I want the research skills and the research skill pre-req back...was almost 30 days worth of training and I want that back since I can no longer use them nor am I interested at all in any other research as industry building is ******* boring beyond setting some ammo to be built when I need it. Sure. That can happen. Of course, i'm sure you won't mind returning all the ISK you've made from those datacores too.
Well, skip, I think you should have to retrain all your capital ship skills. ALL OF THEM.
Seeing as you've had some "good fights" from then, no problem. Eh?
Yeah, you are a loudmouth punk. |
Francisco Bizzaro
88
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 07:30:00 -
[258] - Quote
Kesker wrote:Quote: Not claiming to be insightful. Especially since I'm pointing out something more or less self-evident.
But people are complaining about how long Research Project Management takes to train. Which is strange, because they knew that from the outset, and could do the calculation for how long it would take to pay for itself. So it's a gamble that the datacore market would remain long-term stable.
I don't see why SP need to be refunded for a speculation that went wrong. Especially when you can still do what you trained to do: get datacores from RP agents.
Contribution may have been useless. Or not. Keep it in mind next time you embark on 60 days training for a 1-trick skill with marginal payoff.
I think you are just missing the bigger picture. Sure people are complaining about the time spent training the skills. Even if they didn't train all to lv5 its a massive amount of time and ISK. It's just the same as if someones skilled for a capital, and then CCP cut the effective damage in half. Skill trianing = time = isk = subscription time/$$$. I'll repeat for the third time: You knew how long it would take to train when you started. You knew the profits you'd make from Lvl 5 over Lvl 4. You knew that those profits are dependent on the datacore market, which might change between the day you make the calculation and the day it finally pays off. You speculated on the value of Lvl 5; conditions changed. Why is that worth a refund?
As you say, the situation is quite comparable to training for combat skills. I might get excited about this month's FOTM combat ship. So I spend three months training to fly that ship. Then they release a new expansion, things get rebalanced, and suddenly the FOTM ship I trained for is last month's flavour. Do I get my training time back?
And we can even make a direct analogy within this expansion: Let's say in December some kid noticed that Incursions are paying out like crazy, and so develops the ambition to become an elite incursion runner. He tries to join a fleet and gets told: Go away, don't come back until you can fly XYZ. So he fires up his skill-queue and spends 4 months training XYZ. Then May rolls around and all of a sudden Incursions have been nerfed and all the cool kids are doing something else. Does he get his training time back?
R&D agents hand out datacores, not ISK. They are market commodities who's value is determined by the market. There was never a guarantee that you'd get X amount of ISK from your investment in Research Project Management 5. The market is always affected by rebalancing. The value of individual skills is always affected by rebalancing.
Quote:It's not just skills either, you spend a great deal of time grinding missions to get the standing in order to run the lv4 agents. The agents for a particular corp are not anywhere near each other, so you have incredible amount of time spent in running those missions. People with the mind to maximize their T2 industry obviously run alts for more RP generation, sure. You can't possibly get enough datacores from a single toon to have a very profitable T2 production. If these alts were not out there generating RP for datacores, just imagine how much more expensive your T2 mods would be. I was talking about SP refunds. How is this related to that? If you are bitter about how spread out R&D agents are, that sounds like a completely different discussion to the Inferno changes.
And in fact, my understanding is that Inferno will actually provide more opportunity to get datacores from nearby agents.
Quote: Not only is it just the fact that they are cutting the RP in half, they are putting datacore access into the hands of players that have nothing to do with T2 invention, or production at all. These players didn't train anything, or spend any isk for skills, yet they will benefit from the T2 producers who need the datacores. So there is a logical basis for the all the complaints. Whether people are voicing them with regards to the whole picture or not, it's all relevant.
I was specifically addressing the issue of SP refunds which some people seem to feel entitled to. This paragraph and the rest of your post engages in rebutting arguments which I didn't make.
Quote: Some people are actually suggesting that this will lower the cost of datacores on the market, and it very well may. That is only up to the point that the lp conversion rate is more profitable than other lp rewards. Is this really a good thing anyway, the reduction of cost in datacores? This very well could also have the affect of enticing many more people into T2 production, because of the lower cost of the datacores. Thus driving down prices of T2 modules and cutting into profit margins. Now your talking decimating, not just my generated datacores, but the sole bases of what I have been training a character for over the last year and a half - T2 production.
The fact of the matter is... they are skrewing over one part of the population (the ones that actually use the datacores) in favor of another. The latter of which doesn't have any basis for generation of datacores. Where does datacores through an LP store fit within the New Eden model?
It's virtually all been said, and the complaints are all in this forum topic. Will CCP listen though? Likely not. Social engineering sucks in RL and it's just as bad in EVE.
|
Antisocial Malkavian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 07:32:00 -
[259] - Quote
ChaeDoc II wrote:Aqriue wrote:So long as I get all the science releated SP back, all the skill books to cash out, and what ever I earned all ready I couldn't care. I had already trained those over a year ago, but if they change it to straight up LP conversion in a store I don't have access to then I want the research skills and the research skill pre-req back...was almost 30 days worth of training and I want that back since I can no longer use them nor am I interested at all in any other research as industry building is ******* boring beyond setting some ammo to be built when I need it. Sure. That can happen. Of course, i'm sure you won't mind returning all the ISK you've made from those datacores too.
k agreed
Funny thing... how did Goons win BoB... infiltration then takeover by disbanding... how many Goons work there now?
Goons win EVE yet? I've commented repeatedly that behavior in game reveals a truth about a person in their real life as well. Never has that been demonstrated so successfully in the alliance panel this year at Fanfest. Issler-á ---- Your VOTED CSM |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
59
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 08:38:00 -
[260] - Quote
Shaera Taam wrote:All i know is this: I have two accts, 1 combat char on each, rest of the slots are RnD alts. If this change goes thru, my option is pretty simple... Transfer the second combat char to the first acct, and close the second acct
Sure ccp gets a plex outta me for the transfer, but theyll have to eat the second acct sub loss
Not mad... Shrug... Just sayin...
There's a lot of us in that situation. I have recently started training this character for DC farming, and with the current changes I will simply not renew my subscription. Why invest over 2b worth of gametime/ISK into a character and wait 4 years to see a return on that investment, if I can just farm the datacores with my normal character, doing missions?
|
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Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
390
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 18:51:00 -
[261] - Quote
Since Soundwave is so prone to put risk to reward. Does this mean we also see actions taken against scammer alts which are perma docked in stations? Can't see much risk in that and a lot of reward.
And real great effort ain't in that either. Copy paste tekst over and over till someone falls for it.
|
ReiAnn
Nova-Tek
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 22:15:00 -
[262] - Quote
So basically all I got from reading this thread, CCP wants more players involved in PVP. Great. So they are taking all the reasons that the non pvp people, who like the industrial side, stay playing the game. Not Great. It takes all theses non pvpers to provide the ships and equipment necessary for the pvp people to play and not spend their time building their own ship. I, for one and not the only one, don't plan on renewing my subscriptions if that is the case. By making R&D items accessible to the FW only (or reduced prices), you just created yet another isk faucet. If anything you should have given it to them as a balancing factor to the R&D agents to keep people from abusing the passiveness of them. Additionally, actually make the research stop (as someone suggested) when you don't do the R&D mission.
No matter how you play it, there will always be people who don't want to pvp regardless of how you try and punish them. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
392
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 23:07:00 -
[263] - Quote
ReiAnn wrote:Not reding it all and replying.
They aren't gonna make it so that the only way to get RP is by FW. They just take away any incentive to do it outside of FW. So yes basicly the same, but atleast Soundwave and his BFF's can counter argue.
Goons have been out to make the game as miserable as possible for non Goons and they are succeeding more and more.
The Grey Council of CCP leadership doesn't get that because they have their heads up the proverbial arses too much to see what counterproductivity they are achieving.
Instead of fixing low and null sec the only thing their narrow minds can come up with is nerfing anything not low and null sec.
Don't give me the bullcrap that there was an industrial expansion in the passt because there have been a lot more expansions so the rejects in the game have plenty of materials to mess with miners/haulers.
Most recent example the T3 BC.
CCP is more and more biting it's arse to make the game most lucrative for those who choose the way of the biggest ********. The more of a backstabbing, lying, thieving SOB you are the more EVE caters towards you. They love to give plenty of tools for asshattery and turn a blind eye towards the other playstyles.
And Concord isn't a risk for gankers, it's a calculated loss. As soon as you are 100% sure you are going to loose your ship it's not a risk, it's a concequence you choose for.
The whole crap of Soundwave and his cheerleadersquad of making the game Risk vs Reward somehow strikes as odd seeing there are professions in the game with virtually no risk and not even skill dependant to a measure like RP gathering through R&D agents.
But heck, why fix it when all you have to do is nerf it to hell and keep it just barely alive enough to keep on saying " I didn't kill it, see it's alive"
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Chris Tao
Mad Men Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 00:48:00 -
[264] - Quote
I just don't get it. There are so many things that needs to be fixed and here they go brake something that is currently working. Isk is a passive income after you spent a lot of time and isk to get it. There is no need to nerf it again and again. DC prices have dropped in the past years. Nobody that is today getting datacore passive is suddenly going to start doing FW, and this is a FACT.
Worst part is that its to late to do anything about it now. How do this new ideas get approved when there is so much to do that is constantly left unfinished?
At this point I'd wished that i spent all the time I've spent on R&D in Incursions instead. I only feel empty thinking about hours and days I've spent getting level 4 agents to all my chars. Probably wasted 1 year on R%D on all char on my accounts. Wow its feels insane to say this. 1 freaking year on all my accounts. LOL just freaking insane. This is probably the first time i feel like rage quitting.
Also CCP Soundwaves i have a present to give you for all your HARD WORK, i KNOW it fits PERFECT on your head.
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSATomRud07FzIeCq2kyFHw89QOgS9N5iJcYsxLaA8EdBsLFseKcg
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Captain Carius
Deathshead Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 02:50:00 -
[265] - Quote
My only comments regarding this matter are ...
1) CCP Soundwave is an idiot of the first degree.
2) Hilmar?? What madness possessed you to ever allow a phuking GOON anywhere near EVE game design???
3) Looks like my two mains will be leaving EVE after all as it seems soon there will be nothing left to do but garbage detail in some zero shythole.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
117
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 03:38:00 -
[266] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. Emphasis on "problem" ??? Why is this a problem? I never have trouble selling my datacores, so somebody needs them. Seems like a valid business enterprise to me, and I am helping to supply needed materials to satisfy a hungry public. Also, and I think others have mentioned this, we had to grind standings to have access to the R&D agents as well as train a lenghty skills pathway. Therefore, we have made fairly large investments to build a passive income stream - "free ISK" it is not. So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that. But if this is CCP's thinking, then simply restrict access to R&D agents (or the Research skills tree) to one toon per account. In my mind this is similar to skills restrictions on trial accounts. I'd be fine with that. But to make radical changes to the datacore market is uncalled for. P.S. I'm selling the last of my datacores tomorrow because the foreshadowing on the Ten Ton Hammer vid is has the feel of a steam roller ... Urgg Boolean is spot-on.
But also, let's talk about demand generated for PLEX sold via in-game mechanisms in the context of Xython's example. Here, we have a player (aka, the farmer) with his datacore farming alts who sold his goods to a willing buyer for ISK. The farmer now puts up a buy order for a couple of PLEX or cruises the forum-based Timecode bazaar in order to fulfill his subscription.
Separately, some poor slob with disposable income IRL buys a bunch of PLEX and / or GTCs with RL currency from either CCP or one of their partners. CCP profits and gets currency to pay bills, attorneys to manage layoffs, etc.
The poor slob then sells those PLEX or timecodes to the farmer for ISK in order to buy bling ships and other ego-boosting hardware. The poor slob *also* pays for his subscription with RL currency because he can't be arsed to go ratting or manage a trade alt. His decision and a valid form of play, right?
You see where this is headed? CCP makes RL bank no matter whether a player buys PLEX with ISK or if a player pays a re-occurring subscription fee with RL currency.
If CCP management has some twisted notion that the farmer is magically going to pay cash for his subscriptions instead of buying PLEX with ISK, then they have their heads buried so far up Hilmar's ass that the next stop is his pyloric valve.
Instead, CCP needs to come up with far more creative and compelling ideas for its players to want to buy PLEX. Create some amazing new class of implants or ships that players *must* have. Re-jigger some existing aspect of the game that makes it full of awesome. Etc.
What about skins on ship? You can do it on Tanks for gold. Why not on ships for PLEX?
p.s. sorry for the thread hijack, but I read so many posts where people have no idea of how PLEX work. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
ASKEN KURLEE
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 05:47:00 -
[267] - Quote
Are you listening CCP? Do you get the feeling here that maybe this is not a good idea?
I remember a major CCP spokesperson offering a rather profound apology for not listening to their community not too long ago.
Can you show us where we requested you change our gamestyles concerning this matter?
Is it really all about the money and if so, at least tell us how it benefits you....cause I personally dont see how it benefits us. |
Schmacos tryne
Norsk Testosteron
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:15:00 -
[268] - Quote
Kurai Okala wrote:Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad. Neither datacore farming or PI are "isk faucets" since neither bring isk into the EVE economy. However, I agree that datacore farming is a pretty terrible mechanic since it creates huge value for those players who engage in it with no risk and barely any player input.
I spent a SICK amount of time to grind the standings I needed to become independant in terms of Datacores. Now I have access to ALL agents and I swith around which ones (Yeah I got 6 research jobs also which took too much fricking time to set up).
Compared to the time spent on maxing out Learning skills, this time investement was huge.
Most of the corps have very few agents and some of them lack Lvl 3 agents. Imagine grinding lvl 2 missions to get your standings up so you can use a lvl 4 agent.
So if CCP and players like you THINK it took no player input and no loss of income during this time from my other endevours then please:
THINK again.
CCP: I (and I think more people also) am not "farming" Datacores for anything else then myself and my own science and industrial projects. So if you gonna nerf them, find a way to make them worthless in terms of isk but don't flust the investment in time and effort some of us has made down the drain. That would be twice as mean as when you nerfed my SP training speed. |
Schmacos tryne
Norsk Testosteron
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:39:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price. At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut. Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries? Mining with guns, all over again. Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly? GOONS want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
Let's stick to the facts shall we. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
528
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 10:41:00 -
[270] - Quote
ASKEN KURLEE wrote:Are you listening CCP? Do you get the feeling here that maybe this is not a good idea?
I remember a major CCP spokesperson offering a rather profound apology for not listening to their community not too long ago.
Can you show us where we requested you change our gamestyles concerning this matter?
Is it really all about the money and if so, at least tell us how it benefits you....cause I personally dont see how it benefits us.
If you are trying to comparing what I think you are, then you are comparing apples to oranges. |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3676
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 15:19:00 -
[271] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Malcanis wrote:So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't? Nullsec already gets cheaper-to-run POSes and cyno jammers. What further advantages do they need?
Given that 99% of all non-capital manufacturing occurs in hi-sec, I'd say that perhaps 1 or 2 teeny tiny little tweaks might still be in order. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
393
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 15:27:00 -
[272] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Given that 99% of all non-capital manufacturing occurs in hi-sec, I'd say that perhaps 1 or 2 teeny tiny little tweaks might still be in order.
So it's hi sec's fault that CCP doesn't adress the issues in null sec. And instead of fixing the issue in null sec let's nerf hi sec.
Balancing sounds nice but the balancing in EVE a lot of times comes down to nerfing something instead of fixing the real problem. It's called a quick fix because they have no idea how to fix the real problems.
|
Cedric Mactavish
Shiva Hara
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 16:59:00 -
[273] - Quote
Well, there is some good news in this for me. I just opened a new account, so I could concentrate one on flying and another on PI and datacore/industry. If CCP nerfs the research datacore profitablity - which, I agree with most everyone else here, is nothing special - I can just drop back to 1 account. I lost 3 months or so, CCP loses half my subscription revenue. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1394
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 18:02:00 -
[274] - Quote
I follow the trends in the character bazaar closely. It's what I do to make the major portion of my ISKies so I need to keep a finger on the pulse over there.
The sell orders for datacore alts are the highest I've seen at the lowest price per SP I've seen since I started. And they are not selling. No one with any sense is going to buy a nerfed character.
Pay attention CCP. These are real people with real subs bailing out of the game. Or at the very least dumping a few accts they can't be bothered carrying anymore. If no one is buying, that's just losing subs for the sole reason that a dev has got some stupid idea in his head and launched it with no community discussion. Like I said earlier. I think this will come back to haunt them.
It already is and this thing isn't even live yet.
Mr Epeen Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
65
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 18:11:00 -
[275] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I follow the trends in the character bazaar closely. It's what I do to make the major portion of my ISKies so I need to keep a finger on the pulse over there. The sell orders for datacore alts are the highest I've seen at the lowest price per SP I've seen since I started. And they are not selling. No one with any sense is going to buy a nerfed character. Pay attention CCP. These are real people with real subs bailing out of the game. Or at the very least dumping a few accts they can't be bothered carrying anymore. If no one is buying, that's just losing subs for the sole reason that a dev has got some stupid idea in his head and launched it with no community discussion. Like I said earlier. I think this will come back to haunt them. It already is and this thing isn't even live yet. Mr Epeen
Anyone with half a brain could have predicted this outcome.
Like I said earlier, this nerf strikes at the very core of these characters' careers. There's no other reason for these characters to exist and when CCP goes through with it, many of them will simply be unsubbed.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
598
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 18:17:00 -
[276] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Malcanis wrote:So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't? Nullsec already gets cheaper-to-run POSes and cyno jammers. What further advantages do they need? Given that 99% of all non-capital manufacturing occurs in hi-sec, I'd say that perhaps 1 or 2 teeny tiny little tweaks might still be in order. Yeah, highsec could really use some cynojammers. It would keep that pesky incursion mothership out.
Hisec is just easily suited for producing non-caps. The stations are very nice, walk in, refine and set a production. POSes are pretty safe from people shooting them. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
395
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:47:00 -
[277] - Quote
The typical null sec sove holder will always reply.
" I went to null sec for the cake, and my piece isn't big enough when compared to those who don't play my game"
|
Thomas Kreshant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 20:54:00 -
[278] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Malcanis wrote:So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't? Nullsec already gets cheaper-to-run POSes and cyno jammers. What further advantages do they need? Given that 99% of all non-capital manufacturing occurs in hi-sec, I'd say that perhaps 1 or 2 teeny tiny little tweaks might still be in order.
Most manufacturing occurs in high sec as if you try and build anything other than capitals in 0.0 stations you get a swift kick to the nuts
Tthe changes to POS that CCP wants to introduce would the ideal time to revamp 0.0/low sec construction. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
119
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 21:00:00 -
[279] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:I follow the trends in the character bazaar closely. It's what I do to make the major portion of my ISKies so I need to keep a finger on the pulse over there. The sell orders for datacore alts are the highest I've seen at the lowest price per SP I've seen since I started. And they are not selling. No one with any sense is going to buy a nerfed character. Pay attention CCP. These are real people with real subs bailing out of the game. Or at the very least dumping a few accts they can't be bothered carrying anymore. If no one is buying, that's just losing subs for the sole reason that a dev has got some stupid idea in his head and launched it with no community discussion. Like I said earlier. I think this will come back to haunt them. It already is and this thing isn't even live yet. Mr Epeen Anyone with half a brain could have predicted this outcome. Like I said earlier, this nerf strikes at the very core of these characters' careers. There's no other reason for these characters to exist and when CCP goes through with it, many of them will simply be unsubbed. Also, the point about no community discussion is pretty interesting. I thought the new line at CCP was all about getting some kind of input from CSM and the EVE community before doing these things. I haven't seen or heard anything about this before the ten ton interview with Soundwave...
Perhaps CCP is becoming too blinded by their success. During the launcher program, there is the small splash window celebrating their ninth birthday and "growing". So in their eyes, every change they have made has been for the better. Perhaps they are trying to move away from their niche status and become more main stream. Personally, many of the recent changes, while stated to help the new player, are outright bland, boring, and dumb in their simplified role (basic, limited, prototype) across numerous modules. Or gutting drone alloys and replacing them with bounties while complaining about rampant inflation within the game. Or any of the other "we'll get around to reviewing old issues and offering to fix something soon" without any sense of urgency.
But they are growing!
Since I am not a developer, my opinion is worth squat. But if I was, then I would have it that destroying and reverse engineering the wrecks of the enemy would offer insight into their strengths and weaknesses which would translate into data about them. Or in simpler sense, if I destroyed Gallente ships, then I should gain Gallente spaceship data cores. So if a Gallente industrial ship manufacture wants the information, then it would cost them!
But what do I know - just a bitter vet in a newbie corp after all these years = double whammy! |
ELECTR0FREAK
21
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 22:23:00 -
[280] - Quote
I originally built my character to be a researcher. In February of 2005, I picked a Deteis and piled on the Intelligence and Memory statistics. I don't have an impressive killboard after years of running a small industry corp, living in large nullsec alliances as an industrialist and again in empire as a solo T2 manufacturer.
Unlike many, I didn't get into research for the passive ISK. I got into it for datacores, which I actually used to supplement my T2 production.
*Gasp!* Can it be?! Has CCP considered that people like me actually exist? Of course not. Everyone must be milking that 100 million ISK per month cash cow that is R&D agents.
Reality check; 100m isk a month is nothing, particularly when you consider that it's not free ISK... it requires skill books, training time, a lengthy standings grind with an R&D corp (Lai Dai doesn't have any stations with jump clones, can you believe it?) and a fair bit of time collecting datacores at regular intervals. It was always a thrill dumping my own datacores into my invention bucket, knowing that I was reaping a return on the skill and time investment I'd made previously.
Now, over 8 years later, I'm edging up on 130m skill points, I have a single account, and I'm being told that soon, people will be able to be "researchers" like me by pewpewing eachother in faction warfare. Here are a few reasons why this bothers me:
A) You're directly nerfing a profession (T2 manufacturer). You have this impression that everyone is doing R&D agents for the passive ISK. Many are, but some are not. Already, the rate at which you get datacores via R&D is only a fraction of what you need for a solo T2 production line... reducing it further makes R&D virtually useless.
B) EVE is supposed to be a sandbox. I see more and more where CCP is drawing lines in this sandbox and giving people those cookie-cutter sandcastle molds ("No, no, this is what it should look like") instead of encouraging them to make something truly unique. I agree with the 'mining with guns' change because of the way it damaged null-sec mining (I saw running Anoms suddenly become more profitable than mining in a Hulk in deep null) but I also think it was poorly handled (bounties... that's it? Not extra salvage dropped or something similar? Not like salvage and guns weren't already linked!) CCP, please, give us tools (not premade molds) and let us control this universe. Stop pushing us this way and that trying to make it perfect.
C) The reasoning behind it from a lore perspective is pretty frail. "Hey, thanks for blasting those Amarr scum to hell with your repeating artillery. Here's a bunch of highly technical Minmatar research databases as a reward." Perhaps I'm a rarity in that when I've got the T2 production line up and running I actually use my datacores, but what percentage of FW warfare players will use them for anything other than getting ISK? Is that your intention?
D) It ties T2 ship costs to FW, and thus specific races T2 ships will see price fluctuations on something completely unrelated to consumer supply and demand for said ships. Lets say Minmatar do better in FW, they get more datacores, market has more supply, Minmatar ship prices fall along with datacore prices. Now suddenly Minmatar ships are cheaper, but so is the ISK gain from being a Minmatar in FW. I see a can of worms here.
So, what would I do instead? I doubt I'm going to change any Dev's mind here... the intention has been announced so that means it's already being implemented, but what I'd do is to actually INCREASE the rate that datacores accumulate via R&D, by maybe 2 or 3 times. Obviously this will cause prices to drop significantly, so the passive ISK rate won't be any higher than it is now, but it'll also make going and picking up all the cores and distributing them a more time-consuming matter.
Actual T2 industrialists will have a reason to use R&D for themselves as I do, as they could actually do the majority of their production off of their own R&D. For those just looking for passive ISK, they can either elect to move all of the datacores themselves or put them up on the market locally and avoid having to truck all over space in a Transport ship, allowing traders to swoop in and redistribute stockpiles of datacores to market hubs.
But hey, what do I know, it's not like I've been playing EVE very long. I'm sure the Devs know what's right for EVE. Carry on... Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
|
Chris Tao
Mad Men Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 23:43:00 -
[281] - Quote
Currently i don't see why DC prices would drop
From the test server we have received the information that:
Datacore from R&D agent will now cost double RP and 10isk/pice
This in itself would make datacore twice as expensive moving them from
250k isk to 500 isk
From the FW lp stop you get 5 DC for the price of 1000LP and 1000k Isk
so that's 200k isk /datacore and 200LP
So the 200lp will come at a cost of 300k isk value so thats 1500 isk/LP
But to be honest i do believe that Soudnwave is a very smart person and has grate ideas i don't see the reason why he gets bashed in this thread. Here is a tip for you Soundwave there is a place where people would Love this ideas that you come up with daily and would also hire you right away so why you take this daily **** i don't get. Just make a change.
Here i will give you a link http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/company/careers/index.html
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:04:00 -
[282] - Quote
Chris Tao wrote: But to be honest i do believe that Soudnwave is a very smart person and has grate ideas i don't see the reason why he gets bashed in this thread.
If you are right, he still deserved to "bashed in this thread" because - A well implemented stupid idea is still a stupid idea. - He shouldnt need YOU to explain his ideas to the community. |
Chris Tao
Mad Men Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:11:00 -
[283] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Chris Tao wrote: But to be honest i do believe that Soudnwave is a very smart person and has grate ideas i don't see the reason why he gets bashed in this thread.
If you are right, he still deserved to "bashed in this thread" because - A well implemented stupid idea is still a stupid idea. - He shouldnt need YOU to explain his ideas to the community.
10 points for not getting it, oh snap that what she said |
ELECTR0FREAK
24
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:19:00 -
[284] - Quote
Chris Tao wrote:.... Here is a tip for you Soundwave there is a place where people would Love this ideas that you come up with daily and would also hire you right away so why you take this daily **** i don't get. Just make a change. Here i will give you a link http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/company/careers/index.html
Chris Tao wrote:...10 points for not getting it, oh snap that what she said
AAHahahhahahaha OMG thank you for that, I needed a good laugh! Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:32:00 -
[285] - Quote
Duoh... i knew that link to blizzard was clue !!!
"So the 200lp will come at a cost of 300k isk value so thats 1500 isk/LP" - Chris Tao
I need it explained. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
605
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 00:48:00 -
[286] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote: - A well implemented stupid idea is still a stupid idea. Quoteable right there. :) Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Chris Tao
Mad Men Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:31:00 -
[287] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Duoh... i knew that link to blizzard was clue !!!
"So the 200lp will come at a cost of 300k isk value so thats 1500 isk/LP" - Chris Tao
I need it explained.
are you freaking serious??
What is it that you need explained, basic third grade math?
Are you possible related to Soundwave?
NO NO NO
I know you are Soundwave and this is one of your alts
PS: if you didn't get the clue right away it's probably because you didn't us the right decoder ring |
Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 01:55:00 -
[288] - Quote
Keep in mind folks, this is only phase 1. The next phase will take us closer to wiping out the existing mechanic entirely.
I started a thread challenging Soundwave to trash this idiotic idea. What I suggested is an even heavier nerf than what he has started with, but completely trashes his laughably weak ruse about hating passive income.
He has stated he hates passive income. We all know that datacores are far from passive. You only get 50% of your potential income daily from doing nothing (once of course you have taken weeks to set up your chars). The other 50% comes from running a mission on a daily basis.
I suggested that to make it so we can run 2 missions a day. You run zero missions, you get zero RP. You run one mission, you get 50%. You run 2 missions, you get 100%.
I posted my challenge on Friday. I will bump that thread Monday.
I will wait to see if Soundwave (btw, for those that do not know, he is ex-goon, maybe currently goon. He did the goon presentation at Fanfest 2007.)
I expect him not to respond, but it will prove his comments about wanting to wipe out passive income was clearly a lie to cover the true goal: hammer high sec again.
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
116
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 02:18:00 -
[289] - Quote
Chris Tao wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:Duoh... i knew that link to blizzard was clue !!!
"So the 200lp will come at a cost of 300k isk value so thats 1500 isk/LP" - Chris Tao
I need it explained. are you freaking serious?? What is it that you need explained, basic third grade math?
Is 1500 isk/Lp good or bad ? |
Dersk
90040045
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 02:56:00 -
[290] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Is 1500 isk/Lp good or bad ?
For something that can be easily bought (no tags/manufacturing) and readily dumped without waiting for sell orders, that's very nice, from a FW store or not. Most easy & quick LP items go for 500~1000 isk per LP, such as implants and faction ammo.
When stuff gets into the 2500~3000 isk/LP range people stop talking about them for fear of losing their niche. |
|
Aeryn Tiberius
Imperial Reclamation
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 03:55:00 -
[291] - Quote
CCP Soundwave can I have the Skills I trained back. Go ahead and nerf datacores I do not care, but I do care about the wasted time spent on the skills. It is not worth the time and effort for making only 50 mill isk a month. Thanks, |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
250
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:38:00 -
[292] - Quote
Datacores are already in the faction war LP stores, however the LP/isk costs in the stores are representative if a militia held no systems.
Edit: this is on sisi of course |
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
107
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:20:00 -
[293] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:
I expect him not to respond, but it will prove his comments about wanting to wipe out passive income was clearly a lie to cover the true goal: hammer high sec again.
And return the T2 BPO cartel back to it's rightful place. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
562
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 06:53:00 -
[294] - Quote
ELECTR0FREAK wrote:I originally built my character to be a researcher. In February of 2005, I picked a Deteis and piled on the Intelligence and Memory statistics. I don't have an impressive killboard after years of running a small industry corp, living in large nullsec alliances as an industrialist and again in empire as a solo T2 manufacturer. Unlike many, I didn't get into research for the passive ISK. I got into it for datacores, which I actually used to supplement my T2 production. *Gasp!* Can it be?! Has CCP considered that people like me actually exist? Of course not. Everyone must be milking that 100 million ISK per month cash cow that is R&D agents. Reality check; 100m isk a month is nothing, particularly when you consider that it's not free ISK... it requires skill books, training time, a lengthy standings grind with an R&D corp (Lai Dai doesn't have any stations with jump clones, can you believe it?) and a fair bit of time collecting datacores at regular intervals. It was always a thrill dumping my own datacores into my invention bucket, knowing that I was reaping a return on the skill and time investment I'd made previously. Now, over 8 years later, I'm edging up on 130m skill points, I have a single account, and I'm being told that soon, people will be able to be "researchers" like me by pewpewing eachother in faction warfare. Here are a few reasons why this bothers me: A) You're directly nerfing a profession (T2 manufacturer). You have this impression that everyone is doing R&D agents for the passive ISK. Many are, but some are not. Already, the rate at which you get datacores via R&D is only a fraction of what you need for a solo T2 production line... reducing it further makes R&D virtually useless. B) EVE is supposed to be a sandbox. I see more and more where CCP is drawing lines in this sandbox and giving people those cookie-cutter sandcastle molds ("No, no, this is what it should look like") instead of encouraging them to make something truly unique. I agree with the 'mining with guns' change because of the way it damaged null-sec mining (I saw running Anoms suddenly become more profitable than mining in a Hulk in deep null) but I also think it was poorly handled (bounties... that's it? Not extra salvage dropped or something similar? Not like salvage and guns weren't already linked!) CCP, please, give us tools (not premade molds) and let us control this universe. Stop pushing us this way and that trying to make it perfect. C) The reasoning behind it from a lore perspective is pretty frail. "Hey, thanks for blasting those Amarr scum to hell with your repeating artillery. Here's a bunch of highly technical Minmatar research databases as a reward." Perhaps I'm a rarity in that when I've got the T2 production line up and running I actually use my datacores, but what percentage of FW warfare players will use them for anything other than getting ISK? Is that your intention? D) It ties T2 ship costs to FW, and thus specific races T2 ships will see price fluctuations on something completely unrelated to consumer supply and demand for said ships. Lets say Minmatar do better in FW, they get more datacores, market has more supply, Minmatar ship prices fall along with datacore prices. Now suddenly Minmatar ships are cheaper, but so is the ISK gain from being a Minmatar in FW. I see a can of worms here. So, what would I do instead? I doubt I'm going to change any Dev's mind here... the intention has been announced so that means it's already being implemented, but what I'd do is to actually INCREASE the rate that datacores accumulate via R&D, by maybe 2 or 3 times. Obviously this will cause prices to drop significantly, so the passive ISK rate won't be any higher than it is now, but it'll also make going and picking up all the cores and distributing them a more time-consuming matter. Actual T2 industrialists will have a reason to use R&D for themselves as I do, as they could actually do the majority of their production off of their own R&D. For those just looking for passive ISK, they can either elect to move all of the datacores themselves or put them up on the market locally and avoid having to truck all over space in a Transport ship, allowing traders to swoop in and redistribute stockpiles of datacores to market hubs. But hey, what do I know, it's not like I've been playing EVE very long. I'm sure the Devs know what's right for EVE. Carry on...
Good post for the record.
But don't count on anyone CCP notice it, User Oriented Design does not include actually listening to Users.
BTW, did somebody else notice the deafening silence of the CSM about this issue? EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Chris Tao
Mad Men Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 08:33:00 -
[295] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Chris Tao wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:Duoh... i knew that link to blizzard was clue !!!
"So the 200lp will come at a cost of 300k isk value so thats 1500 isk/LP" - Chris Tao
I need it explained. are you freaking serious?? What is it that you need explained, basic third grade math? Is 1500 isk/Lp good or bad ?
I would not go below 2,5k isk/lp, but that's me |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
252
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 08:47:00 -
[296] - Quote
Zelda Wei wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote:
I expect him not to respond, but it will prove his comments about wanting to wipe out passive income was clearly a lie to cover the true goal: hammer high sec again.
And return the T2 BPO cartel back to it's rightful place.
Add the moon goo empire to the list of things that don't get touched.
Soon a T2 tracking disruptor will hit missiles for 20.1% explosion radius Datacores will be handed to FW farm teams anyone not in a 2000 man alliance will be griefer bait for war dec people.
Yep, another smoke and mirrors expansion. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3684
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 08:48:00 -
[297] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Malcanis wrote: Given that 99% of all non-capital manufacturing occurs in hi-sec, I'd say that perhaps 1 or 2 teeny tiny little tweaks might still be in order.
So it's hi sec's fault that CCP doesn't adress the issues in null sec. And instead of fixing the issue in null sec let's nerf hi sec. Balancing sounds nice but the balancing in EVE a lot of times comes down to nerfing something instead of fixing the real problem. It's called a quick fix because they have no idea how to fix the real problems.
But that's just what they're doing here: datacores will still be available in hi-sec; now they'll also be available in lo-sec FW LP stores.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 11:33:00 -
[298] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
But that's just what they're doing here: datacores will still be available in hi-sec; now they'll also be available in lo-sec FW LP stores.
So what will be the incentive for people to have research agents again? They won't even come close to breaking even for the time and Isk invested for many years. Next to that the travel time doesn't get cut in half but will remain the same to pick up cores and haul them over to a place where they are actually worth a few Isk.
The great Isksink, that datacores are called, is now farmable by gunpoint at a much better rate than investing a lot of time, skills and Isk in an alternate character. Les traveltime to pick up the cores aswel because you can get them all at one station. And with that I mean I don't have to fly to 4 or 5 agents all over EVE to gather my Mechanicla Engineering cores, I now all have them in one station.
If your brain can't wrap around the whole concept as where this is all just (hand)leading to then you aren't as smart and smug as you pose to be.
|
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 11:51:00 -
[299] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote: The great Isksink, that datacores are called
The are not called isk-sink, but isk-faucet. And even that is wrong.
Quoted for you:
Killer Gandry wrote: If your brain can't wrap around the whole concept as where this is all just (hand)leading to then you aren't as smart and smug as you pose to be.
Also, for the record, I disagree with the proposed change by CCP. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:08:00 -
[300] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Killer Gandry wrote: The great Isksink, that datacores are called
The are not called isk-sink, but isk-faucet. And even that is wrong. Quoted for you: Killer Gandry wrote: If your brain can't wrap around the whole concept as where this is all just (hand)leading to then you aren't as smart and smug as you pose to be.
Also, for the record, I disagree with the proposed change by CCP.
If you had bothered to read the thread you would have caught on on the sarcasm that was used in the naming of Isk Sink.
|
|
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1478
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:10:00 -
[301] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Killer Gandry wrote: The great Isksink, that datacores are called
The are not called isk-sink, but isk-faucet. And even that is wrong.
How in the world do Datacores add ISK to the economy?
ISK Faucets occur when NPCs pay ISK to Players (bounties, etc).
ISK Sinks occur when Players pay ISK to NPCs. (factory rent, etc).
Data Cores add no ISK to the economy and result in no ISK being removed. They're neutral on the sink-faucet spectrum. Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
53
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:52:00 -
[302] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote: If you had bothered to read the thread you would have caught on on the sarcasm that was used in the naming of Isk Sink.
Fine, I hadn't bothered to read the whole thread. It grew rather long and I am more interested in the facts that come out of this.
RubyPorto wrote:Cebraio wrote:Killer Gandry wrote: The great Isksink, that datacores are called
The are not called isk-sink, but isk-faucet. And even that is wrong. How in the world do Datacores add ISK to the economy? ISK Faucets occur when NPCs pay ISK to Players (bounties, etc). ISK Sinks occur when Players pay ISK to NPCs. (factory rent, etc). Data Cores add no ISK to the economy and result in no ISK being removed. They're neutral on the sink-faucet spectrum.
If you have directed this explanation to me, you targeted the wrong person. I never said they were sinks or faucets. But thanks for summing up what we already knew. |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1219
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:51:00 -
[303] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:BTW, did somebody else notice the deafening silence of the CSM about this issue?
What are you looking for exactly? If I was still a CSM my response would be something like this:
"You mean they're giving FW a reason to exist AND nerfing passive highsec income? Awesome."
Are you looking for that? I can give you that if you'd like. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:59:00 -
[304] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:BTW, did somebody else notice the deafening silence of the CSM about this issue? What are you looking for exactly? If I was still a CSM my response would be something like this: "You mean they're giving FW a reason to exist AND nerfing passive highsec income? Awesome." Are you looking for that? I can give you that if you'd like.
Hadn't expected else from you Vile. No need to think about it and just blurp off your mouth cause one of your "former" mouthbreathers makes it so because he is a lead designer now.
I am fairly certain he is having a laugh with his buddies on the SA forums.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
533
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:10:00 -
[305] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:BTW, did somebody else notice the deafening silence of the CSM about this issue? What are you looking for exactly? If I was still a CSM my response would be something like this: "You mean they're giving FW a reason to exist AND nerfing passive highsec income? Awesome." Are you looking for that? I can give you that if you'd like.
That seems to be the main issue with CCP as well as the CSMs ideology on how to fix FW. Your not going to fix FW or even give it meaning by increasing its profitability, especially with datacores. All your going to achieve is the same that lowering the LP cost in FW stores did, fluff the number of people leeching off of missions. Once CCP starts realizing its not the profitability that attracts people to participate in FW but the PVP. Give meaning to pvping in FW, create content around promoting pvp, data core farming isn't going to achieve that. Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
415
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:11:00 -
[306] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:What are you looking for exactly? If I was still a CSM my response would be something like this:
"You mean they're giving FW a reason to exist AND nerfing passive highsec income? Awesome."
Are you looking for that? I can give you that if you'd like. Spoken like a true BoB CSM...
Goons - the *NEW* "Band of Brothers".
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1219
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:15:00 -
[307] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Vile rat wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:BTW, did somebody else notice the deafening silence of the CSM about this issue? What are you looking for exactly? If I was still a CSM my response would be something like this: "You mean they're giving FW a reason to exist AND nerfing passive highsec income? Awesome." Are you looking for that? I can give you that if you'd like. Hadn't expected else from you Vile. No need to think about it and just blurp off your mouth cause one of your "former" mouthbreathers makes it so because he is a lead designer now. I am fairly certain he is having a laugh with his buddies on the SA forums.
You are painfully stupid. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
415
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:16:00 -
[308] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:You are painfully stupid. Spoken with true SA aplomb!
/salute
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1219
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:19:00 -
[309] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Vile rat wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:BTW, did somebody else notice the deafening silence of the CSM about this issue? What are you looking for exactly? If I was still a CSM my response would be something like this: "You mean they're giving FW a reason to exist AND nerfing passive highsec income? Awesome." Are you looking for that? I can give you that if you'd like. That seems to be the main issue with CCP as well as the CSMs ideology on how to fix FW. Your not going to fix FW or even give it meaning by increasing its profitability, especially with datacores. All your going to achieve is the same that lowering the LP cost in FW stores did, fluff the number of people leeching off of missions. Once CCP starts realizing its not the profitability that attracts people to participate in FW but the PVP. Give meaning to pvping in FW, create content around promoting pvp, data core farming isn't going to achieve that.
Yeah maybe, I like other ideas put out there for lowsec and fw upgrading better but I'm happy they are at least revisiting FW instead of leaving it dead and buried. To clarify I mostly posted just to show that there are few people going to cry tears over the loss of a high sec no effort steady income mechanism. I did like the idea of not getting rp if you don't do the daily mission though, that was a nice touch. Putting things in to at least take some managing in order to get cash would be a nice change of pace.
I don't think this is going to really do much to improve FW though. Nobody does that kind of crap for LP, let's face it. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
534
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:28:00 -
[310] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:
Yeah maybe, I like other ideas put out there for lowsec and fw upgrading better but I'm happy they are at least revisiting FW instead of leaving it dead and buried. To clarify I mostly posted just to show that there are few people going to cry tears over the loss of a high sec no effort steady income mechanism. I did like the idea of not getting rp if you don't do the daily mission though, that was a nice touch. Putting things in to at least take some managing in order to get cash would be a nice change of pace.
I don't think this is going to really do much to improve FW though. Nobody does that kind of crap for LP, let's face it.
Don't get me wrong some of the changes they are making to FW are decent and its nice for them to finally look at FW to change it, but their mentality of looking at things from a profitablity standpoint is what my concern is.
Same issue when trying to balance high sec, lowsec, and nullsec. They try to balance it based off of the profitability of the other areas, ex. trying to nerf high sec to make null more profitable to get people to move there which doesn't work. Where as they need to look at each area in of itself and make changes that benefit that style of play, giving each area a niche that will attract players.
Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
|
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1219
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:31:00 -
[311] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Vile rat wrote:
Yeah maybe, I like other ideas put out there for lowsec and fw upgrading better but I'm happy they are at least revisiting FW instead of leaving it dead and buried. To clarify I mostly posted just to show that there are few people going to cry tears over the loss of a high sec no effort steady income mechanism. I did like the idea of not getting rp if you don't do the daily mission though, that was a nice touch. Putting things in to at least take some managing in order to get cash would be a nice change of pace.
I don't think this is going to really do much to improve FW though. Nobody does that kind of crap for LP, let's face it.
Don't get me wrong some of the changes they are making to FW are decent and its nice for them to finally look at FW to change it, but their mentality of looking at things from a profitablity standpoint is what my concern is. Same issue when trying to balance high sec, lowsec, and nullsec. They try to balance it based off of the profitability of the other areas, ex. trying to nerf high sec to make null more profitable to get people to move there which doesn't work. Where as they need to look at each area in of itself and make changes that benefit that style of play, giving each area a niche that will attract players.
Ain't nobody going to get into FW as a way to make money. Maybe it'll keep people there though if it's comfortable and fun. At least you should be able to make enough to fund your ships and whatnot so that'd be a definite plus. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:34:00 -
[312] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:
Yeah maybe, I like other ideas put out there for lowsec and fw upgrading better but I'm happy they are at least revisiting FW instead of leaving it dead and buried. To clarify I mostly posted just to show that there are few people going to cry tears over the loss of a high sec no effort steady income mechanism. I did like the idea of not getting rp if you don't do the daily mission though, that was a nice touch. Putting things in to at least take some managing in order to get cash would be a nice change of pace.
I don't think this is going to really do much to improve FW though. Nobody does that kind of crap for LP, let's face it.
Your ignorance just oozes out of your replies.
No effort steady income?
So the time and Isk invested to even get it started was no effort. Once you actually have everything sorted out you still have the very long jumps to collect those cores and then more jumps to put them on a market. Yes still no effort. By the way, you will have to train blockade runner too or outsource the transport of the datacores because opposite to null sec you can't see who might be trying to (suicide) gank you while you carry some Isk worth of datacores.
The whole shift of datacores to FW is a stupid idea and you are just too butthurt to agree to it because it might upset your batphone buddy.
You already get only 50% of the RP you would get daily if you were to do the daily mission for the agent. Just too bad that if you want to have any shot at some usefull RP and datacores you are already forced to use agents which are often 20 or more jumps apart. That might not be an issue for the null sec jumpbridge dwellers but it does take away a lot of gametime from regular players. But you don't give a damn about that. Why would you. it's not a part of the game you care about.
This is one reason why it's one of the best things you and your kind should stay out of the CSM and game design. You lack the broader vision and only trample narrowminded through it all and disregarding all which isn't up your ally.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
535
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 14:55:00 -
[313] - Quote
Your really overstating the effort required for datacore farming. When it comes to Eve nothing is passive, datacore farming is the closest thing in Eve to a passive income. The only thing not passive is the standings grind, however you only have to do that once and your set. The excuse of having to move stuff is something that any profession has to do. Same goes for peoples ideology that moon mining is completely passive which its not its less passive then data core farming or even PI. While I agree with you on the moving datacores to FW is a bad idea, I disagree with your opinion on data cores not being a passive income source at least relative to income sources in Eve. Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
396
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:12:00 -
[314] - Quote
It is barely an income but the bitterness from those who wish to get it nerfed is far more present than those who wish to keep it as it is. But I understand the oversight in that because it doesn't fit the concept of risk versus reward EVE loves to propoganda about.
Skills, standings and everything appears magicly by the wave of a wand and the collecting and transport of datacores is done by EVE mail so it's instantanious.
Not as hard as everything else in EVE.
And since nobody else can do the same we have to nerf it. Or is it because they can't be bothered to do the same but instead want it tied to their pew pew habbits instead.
God, now do something you don't like to do but you do it anyways because of the reward it might bring you in the future. Nah, we just wanna do what we love to do and heck, let's add something else we can get from it and screw those others.
The level of ignorance in EVE is slowly but steadily rising to a point where we can safely say that there never was a sandbox but only a smokescreen guided tour.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3685
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:20:00 -
[315] - Quote
Stop trying to pretend there's anything particularly awesome or deserving about grinding L4 standings in hi-sec. Seriously, you are coming across as the most bitter little babby ever. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Francisco Bizzaro
91
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:30:00 -
[316] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:So the time and Isk invested to even get it started was no effort. Once you actually have everything sorted out you still have the very long jumps to collect those cores and then more jumps to put them on a market. Yes still no effort.
I have a couple of datacore agents working for me in the background. Every few months, I make 20-30 jumps, gather up the cores, and sell them for a half billion ISK.
It's not zero effort - but pretty good pay for a courier contract.
Quote: By the way, you will have to train blockade runner too or outsource the transport of the datacores because opposite to null sec you can't see who might be trying to (suicide) gank you while you carry some Isk worth of datacores.
Why is training ships regarded as odious extra work? Everything you do in the game requires training, but nothing else in the game gives a guaranteed payout every month like a dole cheque.
The only redeeming feature of the system is that some of the best R&D agents were placed in low sec, so you actually do have to make a couple of risky jumps to get the datacores to safety. But a blockade runner makes that job easy as well. |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1219
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 15:51:00 -
[317] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:
Your ignorance just oozes out of your replies.
No effort steady income?
So the time and Isk invested to even get it started was no effort.
No, the time and isk invested to even get it are absolutely inconsequential.
http://i.imgur.com/wzUW9.png
Quote: Once you actually have everything sorted out you still have the very long jumps to collect those cores and then more jumps to put them on a market. Yes still no effort. By the way, you will have to train blockade runner too or outsource the transport of the datacores because opposite to null sec you can't see who might be trying to (suicide) gank you while you carry some Isk worth of datacores.
Holy crap man do you want us to play the game for you?
Quote: The whole shift of datacores to FW is a stupid idea and you are just too butthurt to agree to it because it might upset your batphone buddy.
You already get only 50% of the RP you would get daily if you were to do the daily mission for the agent. Just too bad that if you want to have any shot at some usefull RP and datacores you are already forced to use agents which are often 20 or more jumps apart. That might not be an issue for the null sec jumpbridge dwellers but it does take away a lot of gametime from regular players. But you don't give a damn about that. Why would you. it's not a part of the game you care about.
This is one reason why it's one of the best things you and your kind should stay out of the CSM and game design. You lack the broader vision and only trample narrowminded through it all and disregarding all which isn't up your ally.
Oh come now, insults are just rude! |
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
110
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:03:00 -
[318] - Quote
Vile rat wrote: If I was still a CSM blah, blah, blah passive highsec income
Passive Income dwarfed by technetium Moons.
Just thankfully your ignorance no longer debases the CSM. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
399
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:11:00 -
[319] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Stop trying to pretend there's anything particularly awesome or deserving about grinding L4 standings in hi-sec. Seriously, you are coming across as the most bitter little babby ever.
As soon as you stop trying to make datacore farming a bigger income than they actually are.
|
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
399
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:12:00 -
[320] - Quote
Vile rat wrote: Oh come now, insults are just rude!
Want me to link every single insult you threw at people out there?
|
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
612
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:19:00 -
[321] - Quote
Zelda Wei wrote:Passive Income dwarfed by technetium Moons. Damn right it is. We just had two fleets sit on titans (passively !) for an hour until the enemy just left us alone.
The blob requires a lot of people to be a proper blob. Sadly, some enemies seems disincentivized to fight when you have a proper blob. Oh well.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Whitehound
255
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:32:00 -
[322] - Quote
Has anyone yet said that having one, single and lazy form of farming might not be a bad idea?
Having one form of lazy ISK-farming is good, because it adds diversity to a game. It is still only a game. It allows to have a single ISK-farming feature, which requires no attention at all while it is still in control by CCP. Taking away this mechanic will likely only create a few more botters, because some players will continue to feel a need to make easy ISKs and will go for alternatives.
I did grind several NPC research corps to get access to their L4 research agents. I will still be able to profit from my grinding, because these corps offer blueprints of some of the faction modules, which can only be found at their LP stores (i.e. a 5-run blueprint copy of Fed. Navy magnetic field stabilizers). So my standings with them will not suddenly become useless.
Anyhow, just a thought, but I will not care much either way.
No more crappy expansions!-á-á Raise A Little Hell"20 percent of CCP staff fired." - CEO Hilmar-á-á No more crappy layoffs! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3685
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:40:00 -
[323] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Malcanis wrote:Stop trying to pretend there's anything particularly awesome or deserving about grinding L4 standings in hi-sec. Seriously, you are coming across as the most bitter little babby ever. As soon as you stop trying to make datacore farming a bigger income than they actually are.
Yeah, except that I haven't made any comment whatsoever about how much datacore income is.
I'll make one now, though: the 3 or 4 days standing grind I did for a couple of my characters about a year ago (and on which I spent about 100M on skillbooks for) just paid off enough to get me two months subs, and they're still earning for me even now. Of course I'll be scooping up the scraps, so to speak, on the 21st. Should be a nice few mill. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
68
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 16:46:00 -
[324] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Your really overstating the effort required for datacore farming. When it comes to Eve nothing is passive, datacore farming is the closest thing in Eve to a passive income. The only thing not passive is the standings grind, however you only have to do that once and your set. The excuse of having to move stuff is something that any profession has to do. Same goes for peoples ideology that moon mining is completely passive which its not its less passive then data core farming or even PI. While I agree with you on the moving datacores to FW is a bad idea, I disagree with your opinion on data cores not being a passive income source at least relative to income sources in Eve.
Not entirely true. I have a character that does level 4 missions for Sisters of EVE. The furthest he has to move away from Osmon to do his mission is 2 jumps. The furthest I have to move to sell my LP store rewards is 6 the jumps to Jita.
Comparatively, when I go to my R&D toon to collect datacores, I have around 90 jumps to cover before they're all collected an placed on the market, for each character. That's 360 jumps in total for all my R&D characters. Each jump takes about a minute, so in game time I have to play 6 hours of active, non-afk, non-stop hauling to collect all my datacores. That CANNOT be classified as a passive activity.
Here's the kicker. If I do this once pr. month, I gain around 90m worth of ISK for each character, which is 360m total.
If I spend the same time doing lvl 4 missions I earn around 30m in bounties, 10m in loot+salvage (by outsourcing to ProSynergy) and another 15-20m in loyalty points, which amounts to a total of 55-60m pr. hour or 330-360m for 6 hours.
So to be honest, even in the old system I might as well just have spent those 6 hours doing missions, at least they're slightly more interesting than hauling. In the new system the datacore generation has been halved to 45m and there's a 10k fee pr. datacore, so more like a profit of 40m, pr. character. For four characters I can now earn spend 6 hours hauling to collect 160m worth of datacores, which means that if I collect the datacores on a monthly basis I would actually only earn half as much by doing so compared to spending the same time running missions.
And please note, this calculation doesn't even take into account the time you have to spend on the market to adjust sell orders that are being undercut by 0.01 ISK every 5 minutes.
So in the new system the only way to make DC farming in any way profitable is to collect the cores after at least two months worth of research, which in turn makes it fairly impossible to adapt to new trends in the market and adjust research to get the best priced cores. The bottom line of all this is that the market will be skewed towards some cores, that will then be filled by the FW people, who use their FW LP to buy the best priced cores, and the majority of the proceeds in the R&D career have now moved to pew pew pilots in low-sec.
|
Vile rat
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1220
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 17:08:00 -
[325] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Vile rat wrote: Oh come now, insults are just rude!
Want me to link every single insult you threw at people out there?
Yes! please do! |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
400
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 21:59:00 -
[326] - Quote
Sorry, but crosslinking isn't allowed, but people can easy find themselves all the crapposts you made. Wouldn't want to give you the temptation to do a quick hop on the batphone to get me forumbanned.
The whole datacore debacle boils down to one simple thing.
Where in the passt EVE was a game of own choises and consequences it more and more leads to others making the choices for you by making on choice you made in the passt as unattractive as possible. This only makes me firmly believe that the sandbox they promoted over the years has been broken and polluted over and over again.
As soon as Soundwave introduces nerfs into a game like this they clearly state that the part people played in the passt doesn't fit in their sandbox concept and they just rearrange the sandbox to their likings.
Ofcourse you have to defend him Vile, because let's face it. Even if he actually is a former Goon. Once a Goon always a Goon, right. Brosefs for brosefs. |
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1478
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:39:00 -
[327] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Sorry, but crosslinking isn't allowed, but people can easy find themselves all the crapposts you made. Wouldn't want to give you the temptation to do a quick hop on the batphone to get me forumbanned.
You make an offer then can't back it up when you're called on it?
The crosslinking ban is so people don't shit up their OPs with links to their own, identical OPs in other (or the same) forum. Linking to other people's comments to prove a point is fine. Like this:
How Hisec Miners are a threat to EVE as we love it.
or this:
Just in case you haven't figured it out, being a Sandbox means that the Goons are amazing content for EVE
Regardless, if OP has any evidence of Dev/GM/CCP employee misconduct/malfeasance/incompetence/etc, he should direct it to the IA Department at CCP. Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
400
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:53:00 -
[328] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Regardless, if OP has any evidence of Dev/GM/CCP employee misconduct/malfeasance/incompetence/etc, he should direct it to the IA Department at CCP.
Ah yes. an Internal Affairs investigating their own people.
CCP has a good trackrecord for being trustworthy in that department.
T20. mainly a cover up till the **** hit the fan so darn hard the lid got blown off. Hillmars famous e-mail. Long term silence and then a simple "sorry". But more "sorry I got caught" then "sorry for being an idiot"
20% lay off of employees but not the one really responcible for the whole mess.
No you are absolutely right. I can trust CCP they double my money if I send them any amount.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
618
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 22:56:00 -
[329] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote: I can trust CCP they double my money if I send them any amount. I don't think they do the whole injecting isk thing...
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1405
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 23:04:00 -
[330] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Killer Gandry wrote:Malcanis wrote:Stop trying to pretend there's anything particularly awesome or deserving about grinding L4 standings in hi-sec. Seriously, you are coming across as the most bitter little babby ever. As soon as you stop trying to make datacore farming a bigger income than they actually are. Yeah, except that I haven't made any comment whatsoever about how much datacore income is. I'll make one now, though: the 3 or 4 days standing grind I did for a couple of my characters about a year ago (and on which I spent about 100M on skillbooks for) just paid off enough to get me two months subs, and they're still earning for me even now. Of course I'll be scooping up the scraps, so to speak, on the 21st. Should be a nice few mill.
You kinda glossed over the TWO FREAKING MONTHS it takes to get the rank 8 skill to level 5 that does one thing and one thing only. Allows for one research agent per level. Then you left out the other FEW MONTHS to train up a couple of the base skills to 5 so that your agents are actually producing stuff at a decent rate.
Now, Mal, want to try again? But see if you can use all the facts this time. Not just the ones that suit your broken argument.
Mr Epeen
Me too!-á I ate one sour, too! |
|
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1478
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 23:15:00 -
[331] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Regardless, if OP has any evidence of Dev/GM/CCP employee misconduct/malfeasance/incompetence/etc, he should direct it to the IA Department at CCP. Ah yes. an Internal Affairs investigating their own people. CCP has a good trackrecord for being trustworthy in that department. T20. mainly a cover up till the **** hit the fan so darn hard the lid got blown off. Hillmars famous e-mail. Long term silence and then a simple "sorry". But more "sorry I got caught" then "sorry for being an idiot" 20% lay off of employees but not the one really responcible for the whole mess. No you are absolutely right. I can trust CCP they double my money if I send them any amount.
T20 was before IA (and the reason they have IA). The rest is incompetence writ large. If you want to start bitching about CCP's track record of incompetence, you won't get much disagreement. When you raise that incompetence to accusations of malice, you run into Hanlon's Razor, which usually keeps CCP pretty well defended (through reference to the aforementioned long history of incompetence).
I trust them to not screw with the game in a Dev Corruption sense. I also trust them to screw up the game constantly because that's what they do because they don't quite know what they want the game to look like (let alone how to get there). Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
400
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 23:42:00 -
[332] - Quote
Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special.
Please remove the player driven part to stay atleast partially correct.
|
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1478
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 23:53:00 -
[333] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Single-Shard, Player DrivenSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special.
Please remove the player driven part to stay atleast partially correct.
Nullsec -> Huge, Well Organized groups of players fighting (or not) for power, territory, etc. Lowsec -> Do people actually PvE out here? Pirate player's in heaven. Hisec -> The Economy has roughly the minimum possible NPC inputs (I can't think of a good way around BPOs) Jita -> A trade hub created by players through an accident of history and retains its status despite the reason it became a hub disappearing
Events: Hulkageddon -> Dreamed up, organized, funded, and prosecuted by players for the enjoyment (and profits) of players Burn Jita/Ice Interdiction -> See Hulkageddon The immense player driven organization that ran Incursions for the last year The random quiet acts of violence or kindness that happen between strangers every moment on TQ
There's no interesting NPC driven activity in EvE, so why the hell are you playing if you don't think EvE's a player driven world?
Enough about my sig, got any evidence of Dev misconduct? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
156
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:00:00 -
[334] - Quote
I think we are making this more complex than it needs to be.
Some years ago they homogenized Agent groups and in so doing all the R&D corps got a fist full of Security agents they never had before. I just took Duvolle Laboratories from 0 standing to 2.00 standing with 4 Lv. 3 Sec missions and Connections 4. I will have it to 3.00 and be able to run level 4 R&D in an afternoon.
Anyone remember the nursery rhyme, She swallowed the goat to catch the dog, to catch the cat, to catch the bird to catch the fly?
EVE swallowed a fly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
402
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:20:00 -
[335] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Enough about my sig, got any evidence of Dev misconduct?
I don't have the database access they have and if I had I would be breaking some rules of the EULA, wouldn't I.
And IA won't investigate anyways since heck, they need the proof delivered to their doorstep first and made public so they can first shoot down the messenger. It sounded so darn nice and nifty, but let's face it, it's just anotehr propoganda stunt promoted to sooth one of the many fuckups in the passt. Just like some excuses tried to sound as sincere as Enron's CEO when he appologized.
The fact alone that there is a growing group of the playerbase is suspecting the same as I suspect does make the thing sound more and more probable. But heck, let's just call it tinfoil hattery and be done with it. And incase the roof does get blown off of this and suspicions become reality you can wiggle your arse in silence or all of a sudden become one of the bleating sheep at the rear. Most likely using an alt though.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
537
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:25:00 -
[336] - Quote
Usually when things happen that people dislike or don't understand they claim haxors or in Eve's case Dev involvement. Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
417
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 00:54:00 -
[337] - Quote
Ioci wrote:I think we are making this more complex than it needs to be.
Some years ago they homogenized Agent groups and in so doing all the R&D corps got a fist full of Security agents they never had before. I just took Duvolle Laboratories from 0 standing to 2.00 standing with 4 Lv. 3 Sec missions and Connections 4. I will have it to 3.00 and be able to run level 4 R&D in an afternoon.
Anyone remember the nursery rhyme, She swallowed the goat to catch the dog, to catch the cat, to catch the bird to catch the fly?
EVE swallowed a fly. They also "homogenized" the agent standings to spread the mission runners out, to thin out the camouflage for the botters. Don't know if you were aware of that.
Killer Gandry wrote:The fact alone that there is a growing group of the playerbase is suspecting the same as I suspect does make the thing sound more and more probable. No it doesn't. It's called mass hysteria
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Darth Tickles
Dark Sun Consortium
325
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 01:17:00 -
[338] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Killer Gandry wrote:The fact alone that there is a growing group of the playerbase is suspecting the same as I suspect does make the thing sound more and more probable. No it doesn't. It's called mass hysteria
Agreed. That stood out as one of the dumber and more mentally unhinged comments on here, and that's pretty significant considering the competition.
|
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
420
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 01:30:00 -
[339] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Agreed. That stood out as one of the dumber and more mentally unhinged comments on here, and that's pretty significant considering the competition. I have no idea why, but that just made me laugh so hard my wife is looking at me VERY CROSSLY!
thanks!
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1478
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 01:31:00 -
[340] - Quote
Darth Tickles wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Killer Gandry wrote:The fact alone that there is a growing group of the playerbase is suspecting the same as I suspect does make the thing sound more and more probable. No it doesn't. It's called mass hysteria Agreed. That stood out as one of the dumber and more mentally unhinged comments on here, and that's pretty significant considering the competition.
At least he admits that he's got nothing and just wants someone to be mad at. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
|
Aeryn Tiberius
Imperial Reclamation
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 02:59:00 -
[341] - Quote
So let me get this straight, CCP wants more people to play FW, and they decide to put datacores in the FW LP store, and then call FW fixed. Is that suppose to be an off-color joke. I will go grab my guns and play FW for datacores. I thought that the initial discussions about changing FW did not even include datacores, so what this really means is CCP rather than do surgery and fix somethings are going to put a band-aid on cancer and call it good. Well I needed my laugh for the day, Thank you CCP! |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2348
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:18:00 -
[342] - Quote
Aeryn Tiberius wrote:So let me get this straight, CCP wants more people to play FW, and they decide to put datacores in the FW LP store, and then call FW fixed. Is that suppose to be an off-color joke. I will go grab my guns and play FW for datacores. I thought that the initial discussions about changing FW did not even include datacores, so what this really means is CCP rather than do surgery and fix somethings are going to put a band-aid on cancer and call it good. Well I needed my laugh for the day, Thank you CCP!
You got it wrong. You'll notice that this thread is about datacores, so unsurprisingly that is what the discussion is focused on. It just happens to have a connection to FW. The list of FW changes are not final yet, but based on SiSi they will include:
- LP for kills - Bunkers are now infrastructure hubs - LP for all FW actions (capturing complexes, capturing infrastructures hubs, etc) - New FW front page - Consequences for capturing systems/regions (benefits for you, grief for your enemy) - Capturing FW system affect SOV ownership - Map filters for FW have been revamped |
ELECTR0FREAK
32
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:25:00 -
[343] - Quote
Aeryn Tiberius wrote:So let me get this straight, CCP wants more people to play FW, and they decide to put datacores in the FW LP store, and then call FW fixed. Is that suppose to be an off-color joke. I will go grab my guns and play FW for datacores. I thought that the initial discussions about changing FW did not even include datacores, so what this really means is CCP rather than do surgery and fix somethings are going to put a band-aid on cancer and call it good. Well I needed my laugh for the day, Thank you CCP!
It's not rocket surgery!
Well, okay, maybe it is.
Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:32:00 -
[344] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Usually when things happen that people dislike or don't understand they claim haxors or in Eve's case Dev involvement.
The Drone Regions are Null Sec.
I have no idea why they were nerfed even in the "risk/reward" paradigm. Oh yeah, we switch to "people should mine, not gun-mine" cause it's a sand-box and you do what we say or we remove features from the game to make you.
Or something like that.
Removing datacores is being done in a similarly stupid way. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:34:00 -
[345] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Aeryn Tiberius wrote:So let me get this straight, CCP wants more people to play FW, and they decide to put datacores in the FW LP store, and then call FW fixed. Is that suppose to be an off-color joke. I will go grab my guns and play FW for datacores. I thought that the initial discussions about changing FW did not even include datacores, so what this really means is CCP rather than do surgery and fix somethings are going to put a band-aid on cancer and call it good. Well I needed my laugh for the day, Thank you CCP! You got it wrong. You'll notice that this thread is about datacores, so unsurprisingly that is what the discussion is focused on. It just happens to have a connection to FW. The list of FW changes are not final yet, but based on SiSi they will include: - LP for kills - Bunkers are now infrastructure hubs - LP for all FW actions (capturing complexes, capturing infrastructures hubs, etc) - New FW front page - Consequences for capturing systems/regions (benefits for you, grief for your enemy) - Capturing FW system affect SOV ownership - Map filters for FW have been revamped
You forgot the part where they still let Null Bears hot drop 1,000 Titans anywhere in Low Sec cause they wanna. |
Aeryn Tiberius
Imperial Reclamation
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:40:00 -
[346] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Aeryn Tiberius wrote:So let me get this straight, CCP wants more people to play FW, and they decide to put datacores in the FW LP store, and then call FW fixed. Is that suppose to be an off-color joke. I will go grab my guns and play FW for datacores. I thought that the initial discussions about changing FW did not even include datacores, so what this really means is CCP rather than do surgery and fix somethings are going to put a band-aid on cancer and call it good. Well I needed my laugh for the day, Thank you CCP! You got it wrong. You'll notice that this thread is about datacores, so unsurprisingly that is what the discussion is focused on. It just happens to have a connection to FW. The list of FW changes are not final yet, but based on SiSi they will include: - LP for kills - Bunkers are now infrastructure hubs - LP for all FW actions (capturing complexes, capturing infrastructures hubs, etc) - New FW front page - Consequences for capturing systems/regions (benefits for you, grief for your enemy) - Capturing FW system affect SOV ownership - Map filters for FW have been revamped
Thanks for the insight, I guess the hardest part I have understanding this change, is the logic behind it or lack of.
Spend 1 month or more training for skills to now get half the datacores in the past and for a fee and going out with guns and getting them!
I want my SP back that is all I am asking for. |
Bennet Am
Seekers of Oblivion
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:58:00 -
[347] - Quote
I trained these skills as a beginner in hopes of inventing a t2 BPO.
They mean something. The passive income for anyone who played way back then is inconsequential. That is not the issue.
Clever is not always better. Improve the game, don't just move around old mechanics in the name of improvement.
Fix the science profession first, then move farming skills to pvp. If you just want to fix pvp, add isk. |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
409
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:04:00 -
[348] - Quote
Bennet Am wrote:I trained these skills as a beginner in hopes of inventing a t2 BPO.
.
That is gonna be a long hope then since you can't invent a T2 BPO onlyBPC's.
|
Aeryn Tiberius
Imperial Reclamation
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:21:00 -
[349] - Quote
Bennet Am wrote:I trained these skills as a beginner in hopes of inventing a t2 BPO.
They mean something. The passive income for anyone who played way back then is inconsequential. That is not the issue.
Clever is not always better. Improve the game, don't just move around old mechanics in the name of improvement.
Fix the science profession first, then move farming skills to pvp. If you just want to fix pvp, add isk.
I think you are talking about another game, In EVE online there are two professions, Kill people or be a carebear and be killed by other people. |
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1478
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:22:00 -
[350] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Bennet Am wrote:I trained these skills as a beginner in hopes of inventing a t2 BPO.
. That is gonna be a long hope then since you can't invent a T2 BPO onlyBPC's.
Wow, REALLY?
But then how do people obtain T2 BPOs? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
|
Hockston Axe
100
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:47:00 -
[351] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.
Yep, right on the frontlines is the best place to put your military heavy industry...
|
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
158
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:54:00 -
[352] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Ioci wrote:I think we are making this more complex than it needs to be.
Some years ago they homogenized Agent groups and in so doing all the R&D corps got a fist full of Security agents they never had before. I just took Duvolle Laboratories from 0 standing to 2.00 standing with 4 Lv. 3 Sec missions and Connections 4. I will have it to 3.00 and be able to run level 4 R&D in an afternoon.
Anyone remember the nursery rhyme, She swallowed the goat to catch the dog, to catch the cat, to catch the bird to catch the fly?
EVE swallowed a fly. They also "homogenized" the agent standings to spread the mission runners out, to thin out the camouflage for the botters. Don't know if you were aware of that.
It sounds like you are assuming I said that in a negative way. I know why they did what they did and I myself liked the changes. It still had some side effects and access to R&D is one of them. You could argue the best thing CCP could do is leave them alone. So what if there are 3 billion datacores in the game? It reduces the cost of inventions, that can be a good thing. I'm just nit sure of all the various ideas as to why they are doing it. I think its cut and dry on the why. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Aeryn Tiberius
Imperial Reclamation
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 05:04:00 -
[353] - Quote
The sad thing is that I just got done training the skills that is why I want them back now, I could fly a carrier with the needed sp.
A quick noob question, I got this from my agent. If I do not do the mission does that mean I will not still be collecting research points towards datacores?
Our research has been fruitful, but I've encountered a snag and our research has been halted. Please contact me as soon as possible. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
158
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 05:50:00 -
[354] - Quote
Aeryn Tiberius wrote:The sad thing is that I just got done training the skills that is why I want them back now, I could fly a carrier with the needed sp.
A quick noob question, I got this from my agent. If I do not do the mission does that mean I will not still be collecting research points towards datacores?
Our research has been fruitful, but I've encountered a snag and our research has been halted. Please contact me as soon as possible.
It's a mission flag. You can either take the mission or ignore it and on datacores, don't worry about it. They like everything else in EVE are priced to stalemate. You will still get more ISK out of them than you put in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Godfrey Silvarna
Stargates and Smuggler Barons
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 06:25:00 -
[355] - Quote
Moving things away from Player to NPC interaction centered areas towards areas where focus is on Player to Player interaction sounds like a fine idea... but FW LP stores seem far too tightly bound to NPC empires to actually do that significantly better than NPC agents. Too much focus on the empires I say. In a perfect sandbox it should be possible to ignore the needs of some silly non player characters and the wars of their empires. |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
74
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 07:40:00 -
[356] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Bennet Am wrote:I trained these skills as a beginner in hopes of inventing a t2 BPO.
. That is gonna be a long hope then since you can't invent a T2 BPO onlyBPC's.
There was a time when you could.
Oh, and you just made yourself look very... very... silly. |
Bellona Roman
Army Of Angels Army Of Angels Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 07:56:00 -
[357] - Quote
Regarding datacores, Why not change it so that datacores are now player made, from bpc's obtained from research agents.
If this happened , how many fw ppl would use lp to buy bpc and then go and make said cores? not as many as if it were simply as it is going to be perhaps? |
Killer Gandry
V I R I I Ineluctable.
411
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 14:26:00 -
[358] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:
Oh, and you just made yourself look very... very... silly.
I do like to fit in with the rest.
|
Cedric Mactavish
Shiva Hara
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 16:58:00 -
[359] - Quote
Being relatively noob, this is my first significant Eve nerf experience. So Question: is there any consistent expectation we can have about when we will know the details of this one?
I've seen a Soundwave post promising a dev blog, and I think I recall a post that mentioned a May 21 date (for what, I can't recall). Other than that, I don't know what or when. Is there a regularly scheduled release notes procedure, or do we just wait for CCP to bestow upon us the divine intervention? |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 17:41:00 -
[360] - Quote
Cedric Mactavish wrote:Being relatively noob, this is my first significant Eve nerf experience. So Question: is there any consistent expectation we can have about when we will know the details of this one?
I've seen a Soundwave post promising a dev blog, and I think I recall a post that mentioned a May 21 date (for what, I can't recall). Other than that, I don't know what or when. Is there a regularly scheduled release notes procedure, or do we just wait for CCP to bestow upon us the divine intervention?
Yes, the changes are already in effect on SiSi, and Soundwave has all but confirmed that the datacore collection rate will be halved, there will be a tax on purchase of datacores of 10.000 ISK and that all the different kinds of datacores will be available in the FW loyalty point stores. |
|
Cedric Mactavish
Shiva Hara
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 18:11:00 -
[361] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:Yes, the changes are already in effect on SiSi, and Soundwave has all but confirmed that the datacore collection rate will be halved, there will be a tax on purchase of datacores of 10.000 ISK and that all the different kinds of datacores will be available in the FW loyalty point stores.
Thanks! That's enough detail to run with.... |
Llyandrian
Livestock Science Exchange
62
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:03:00 -
[362] - Quote
This is a massive nerf of invention based T2 production, months of training now useless, hundred of hours grinding standing up all wasted, prices will rocket. Predictable the main beneficiaries will again be the favoured sons of null-sec.
|
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
319
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:12:00 -
[363] - Quote
Llyandrian wrote:This is a massive nerf of invention based T2 production, months of training now useless, hundred of hours grinding standing up all wasted, prices will rocket. Predictable the main beneficiaries will again be the favoured sons of null-sec.
Yup, things in nullsec are looking pretty sweet right now. Poor little hisec babbies...
Now if only they'd make a way for me to pump all the tech mined from my personal moons right into my veins.
|
Iamien
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
135
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:23:00 -
[364] - Quote
Because null-sec players participate all day erryday in Faction Warfare. |
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1484
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 19:55:00 -
[365] - Quote
Iamien wrote:Because null-sec players participate all day erryday in Faction Warfare.
You forget, Null is anyone who's not a carebear in high. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Killian Redbeard
Mindhead Cosmic Conditioning
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.09 23:38:00 -
[366] - Quote
Not sure what Faction warfare has to do with Research but since you insist on putting datacores in FW LP stores can you also put in all mineable minerals, gases, moon goo, and ice. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
262
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 18:26:00 -
[367] - Quote
In an effort to over come the impasse I have a counter proposal.
My aim to buff FW in an RP/lore consistent manner without buffing null-sec or nerfing existing Researchers.
1) Introduce 4 new Faction Warfare military technology datacores, e.g.
Amarr Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Gallente Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Minmatar Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Caldari Military Doctrine / Technology / Science.
2) Make these only available from the FW LP Store.
3) Use these datacores to invent Navy variants of existing ships. Make these ships attractive by making them different from existing Navy Hulls. e.g. Starting with Navy Interceptors, EAS or AF.
Navy Wolf, Enyo, etc.
This could even be done in stages, 1&2 could be used to show a clear intent and get players collecting them, step #3 would probably take time to complete.
|
Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
382
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:00:00 -
[368] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote: In an effort to over come the impasse I have a counter proposal.
My aim to buff FW in an RP/lore consistent manner without buffing null-sec or nerfing existing Researchers.
1) Introduce 4 new Faction Warfare military technology datacores, e.g.
Amarr Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Gallente Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Minmatar Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Caldari Military Doctrine / Technology / Science.
2) Make these only available from the FW LP Store.
3) Use these datacores to invent Navy variants of existing ships. Make these ships attractive by making them different from existing Navy Hulls. e.g. Starting with Navy Interceptors, EAS or AF.
Navy Wolf, Enyo, etc.
This could even be done in stages, 1&2 could be used to show a clear intent and get players collecting them, step #3 would probably take time to complete.
Something like this is actually not a bad idea.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
561
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 19:02:00 -
[369] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote:In an effort to over come the impasse I have a counter proposal.
My aim to buff FW in an RP/lore consistent manner without buffing null-sec or nerfing existing Researchers.
1) Introduce 4 new Faction Warfare military technology datacores, e.g.
Amarr Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Gallente Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Minmatar Military Doctrine / Technology / Science. Caldari Military Doctrine / Technology / Science.
2) Make these only available from the FW LP Store.
3) Use these datacores to invent Navy variants of existing ships. Make these ships attractive by making them different from existing Navy Hulls. i.e. Navy Interceptors, EAS or AF such as a Navy Wolf, Enyo, etc.
This could even be done in stages, 1&2 could be used to show a clear intent and get players collecting them, step #3 would probably take time to complete skins and balance etc, bu I believe offers a better buff to FW.
Or just make it simple and ONLY move the racial ship datacores to their respective militia. Everything else could stay the same.
Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
Salinas Montif
Midnight Kittens
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.10 21:00:00 -
[370] - Quote
Llyandrian wrote: This is a massive nerf of invention based T2 production, months of training now useless, hundred of hours grinding standing up all wasted, prices will rocket. Predictable the main beneficiaries will again be the favoured sons of null-sec.
Again the favors go to the large alliances that already have the T2 BPO market by making research that much more expensive.
Ideally if they wanted to improve the T2 market and increase the FW LP store, they could offer T2 BPCs with better ME and PE on the LP store then could be garnered through invention. Like 1 run BPC with 4ME and 4PE (versus the -4,-4 of an invention BPC). Or multiple run BPCs of 0ME and 0PE. BPC types would be divided among the factions based on the data interface required. Then FW would get the buff it needs, Research of Datacores would get the nerf they aparently want price wise, and everyone would be happy. Sortof.
Personally I started researching for the T2 lottery (back in 2006). And I was furious when the T20 scandle broke. Still am actually thinking about how I had hoped like many others of getting a BPO only to find out the system was rigged for a bunch of good ol boys. But I thought the datacore thing would be a good leveler for T2 BPO monoplies. That of course never panned out.
Also as said before, Datacores do not make a lot of isk as the more they are worth, the more players train up for them and the price drops. So the idea that datacores are some form of passive isk is a myth.
oh well. |
|
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1488
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 00:02:00 -
[371] - Quote
Salinas Montif wrote:Llyandrian wrote: This is a massive nerf of invention based T2 production, months of training now useless, hundred of hours grinding standing up all wasted, prices will rocket. Predictable the main beneficiaries will again be the favoured sons of null-sec.
Again the favors go to the large alliances that already have the T2 BPO market by making research that much more expensive. Ideally if they wanted to improve the T2 market and increase the FW LP store, they could offer T2 BPCs with better ME and PE on the LP store then could be garnered through invention. Like 1 run BPC with 4ME and 4PE (versus the -4,-4 of an invention BPC). Or multiple run BPCs of 0ME and 0PE. BPC types would be divided among the factions based on the data interface required. Then FW would get the buff it needs, Research of Datacores would get the nerf they aparently want price wise, and everyone would be happy. Sortof. Personally I started researching for the T2 lottery (back in 2006). And I was furious when the T20 scandle broke. Still am actually thinking about how I had hoped like many others of getting a BPO only to find out the system was rigged for a bunch of good ol boys. But I thought the datacore thing would be a good leveler for T2 BPO monoplies. That of course never panned out. Also as said before, Datacores do not make a lot of isk as the more they are worth, the more players train up for them and the price drops. So the idea that datacores are some form of passive isk is a myth. oh well.
Let me get this straight, you want to KILL invention because datacore prices are low? Huh?
T2BPOs don't significantly impact the profitability of the intelligent inventor. More importantly, T2BPOs serve the purpose of keeping marginal markets filled. The idea that Invention didn't cut the T2 BPO owners' monopoly profits off at the taint is ludicrous. It moved the production bottleneck to the R64s. Then another change moved it to Tech where it remains. If T2 BPOs were still the driving force in T2 production, the Tech cartel wouldn't exist as we know it.
Inventors will pass their increased/decreased datacore costs on to the consumer, depending on what's happening in FW or however it's going to work out.
Datacore farmers may be able to pass their costs along or not, depending on how the FW LP turn in turns out. Either way, so long as the cost to extract the datacores is lower than the price of the datacores, you will make a profit. Whether or not it remains a good return on your investment of training and standings grinding is a separate matter.
Oh, and of course Datacores are a passive source of income. They're just not a large one. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 01:27:00 -
[372] - Quote
Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction? |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
569
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 12:37:00 -
[373] - Quote
Maxpie wrote:Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction?
In the same way that US scientists keeps its military secrets to themselves, or Russia, or China, or well you get the point.
Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
114
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 13:00:00 -
[374] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Maxpie wrote:Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction? In the same way that US scientists keeps its military secrets to themselves, or Russia, or China, or well you get the point.
But we, the capsuleers are supposedly the scientists. And we apparently are not bound to assist any particular faction unless we choose to do so. Anyway, I still don't get how the datacores are 'discovered' as a result of one militia fighting another. The A-bomb was created by scientists, it didn't spontaneously appear after the 1000th bombing mission or something. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
570
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 13:14:00 -
[375] - Quote
Maxpie wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Maxpie wrote:Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction? In the same way that US scientists keeps its military secrets to themselves, or Russia, or China, or well you get the point. But we, the capsuleers are supposedly the scientists. And we apparently are not bound to assist any particular faction unless we choose to do so. Anyway, I still don't get how the datacores are 'discovered' as a result of one militia fighting another. The A-bomb was created by scientists, it didn't spontaneously appear after the 1000th bombing mission or something.
You don't create datacores solely by yourself, otherwise why would you need to go to a certain agent or station? If the pod pilot was the only one involved I would be making Mechanical Engineering Cores 24/7 in Jita 4-4. In the end the idea of Militia factions taking control over the scientific discoveries is nothing new and wouldn't be hard to RP into Eve.
Plus from my understanding of the recent the Dev blog they aren't even completely moving datacores to FW, they are only making it easier for them to get. Having a military budget to speed up research for example.
Free-áKugutsumen from censorship and end the bitterness. |
Haulie Berry
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 14:27:00 -
[376] - Quote
Quote:Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
I'm going to disagree with the "very cool" part. Very cool would be a means of moving production more towards low sec in a logical, believable fashion.
Instead, you've shoehorned an arbitrary relationship between FW and production into place. It's about as logically consistent as, say, asteroids dropping criminal dogtags.
So, +1 for the notion of moving production more toward low-sec, and -10 for the insipid implementation. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 15:30:00 -
[377] - Quote
Taking a page from listening to CCP Soundwave during the Alliance Tournaments...
Soundwave: "Ummm, so yea, this is going to be so awesome. Removing data cores and putting them with Factional Warfare! Ummm, this is going to be great! Ummm, what do you think of this Kil2?"
Kil2: "Thought we were talking about the tournament fights?"
Soundwave: "Ummm, so Verone, as a low sec pirate, what do you think of this awesome change of mine?"
Verone: "Yea... errr, so factional warfare and data cores go together how...?"
Soundwave: "Yea, so awesome I think. Ummm, let me check out some forum posts before our next match." Soundwave reads a bunch of negative replies before locating his alt character. "Ahhh here is one - from Soundwavealt asks, "You are so great Soundwave, what other changes you have in mind?" Soundwave stares at the camera. "Well ummm, you see, we're thinking about restricting all tech 2 and tech 3 ships to low and null sec space. Ummm, you can sell them in Jita and stuff but ummm, you can only assemble and fly them in low and null! Ummm, so what do you two think about that?"
Kil2 and Verone sit there dumbfounded, speechless.
Soundwave: "Alright, for out next match, ummm, we have Retired Industrialists versus Special Ed Kids... Ummm, two no-name alliances, so we'll skip that and go back to discussing how awesome I am. Verone..."
The alliance tournament cat jumps off the table and runs away. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
942
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 16:28:00 -
[378] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote: Starbase charters (with revised pricing) would have made sense. Datacores, though? This just reeks of, "Well, we couldn't come up with a really good idea, so we just went with the first thing that came to mind."
That would make a whole lot more sense (moving all starbase charters into the FW LP store). Especially if CCP would change the rules so that all towers in empire space (including low-sec) have to pay in charters based on who has Sov over the system.
Yes, low-sec towers should require charters. It's empire space.
(POS towers in contested areas would simply have to stock a few hundred of both racial charters. They don't take up much room, so this is not a huge burden.) |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security
40
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 17:15:00 -
[379] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Haulie Berry wrote: Starbase charters (with revised pricing) would have made sense. Datacores, though? This just reeks of, "Well, we couldn't come up with a really good idea, so we just went with the first thing that came to mind."
That would make a whole lot more sense (moving all starbase charters into the FW LP store). Especially if CCP would change the rules so that all towers in empire space (including low-sec) have to pay in charters based on who has Sov over the system. Yes, low-sec towers should require charters. It's empire space. (POS towers in contested areas would simply have to stock a few hundred of both racial charters. They don't take up much room, so this is not a huge burden.)
When's the last time you saw an empire ship patrol losec?
Oh, yeah you haven't. Gee, let's put a random change in (starbase charters in losec) because we don't like the datacore changes. I'd love to hear your justification for this. |
Haulie Berry
64
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 17:18:00 -
[380] - Quote
Brunaburh wrote: When's the last time you saw an empire ship patrol losec?
From an IC perspective, that's exactly what the militias are. Acting agents of the sovereign empires.
|
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Eaorgan Dax
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.11 17:43:00 -
[381] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.
I think you missed school somehow......... CCP missing profit because people buy plex in game.......... Right.....
Ok, let me help you out there..... PLEX, is bought from CCP, every PLEX in the game has been bought from CCP, so how does CCP not make profit?
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1431
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 18:37:00 -
[382] - Quote
Let me just throw this in here.
One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)
Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)
So by the reasoning in most of this thread (and a few others) we need to nerf SP training massively as it is the highest passive income generator in the game.
Remove passive training? Why not? Wouldn't want someone to make money they didn't work for, right?
Right?
You bunch of morons
Mr Epeen
There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3755
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 21:36:00 -
[383] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Let me just throw this in here.
One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)
Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)
Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1434
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 22:19:00 -
[384] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Let me just throw this in here.
One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)
Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)
Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.
Not free since I am paying for the acct. But considering I'd be doing that anyway for the fully skilled character that needs no more training for what I want him to do, not an issue either. Two empty character slots with nothing to use them for but train up 20M SP characters and sell them. Total passive income at no cost for that specific character.
In other words, completely comparable.
As much as I hate giving away good info that will add to my competition in the character forum, it needed to be said, I guess.
Mr Epeen
There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 22:33:00 -
[385] - Quote
I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP. Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.
Say le's say gets 1 tenth of the kill, and gets 800 LP.
So, he goes to the LP store, plunks down 800K, burns his 800 LP, and now has 20 datacores. 20 datacores at a cost of 40,000 each.
Let's say he picked up molecular engineering datacores from a Minne LP store. They are only used in trivial things like Damage Control II's. No one would ever need to fit those to a ship, so a completely trivial example, right? I am sure there won't be a need for that datacore.
In the meantime, the person who did all the standings grind to get the L4 R&D agents, blew 40 million on skillbook, burned who knows how much training time, well, they can get 1.8-2.2 datacores/ day, from this "passive" income, right now.
Let's call it 2 datacores/day. But wait, that is being hammered back to ONE datacore/ day very soon, and gets to pay 10,000 for that datacore.
Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill. Let's not even begin to get into the thousands they get for a sov structure.
So suddenly the Fw guys are flooding the market with datacores that cost them 40,000. Let's say the FW datacore supplier market decides it wants 100% profit, and they sell for 80,000 each on the market. Market will decide it, but I think my estimate is not out of whack.
So the R&D guy, he is now getting 1 datacore worth 80,000, less the 10,000 ISK fee, for a total of 70,000 ISK/day. He was getting 600,000 /day (2 datacores worth 300K each).
600,000 vs 70,000.....Nope, just a slight nerf. Payback time on that skill book.....40 million / 70,000 = 571 days.
Nicely done Soundwave. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1384
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 22:38:00 -
[386] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.
You get back a character slot in which to train up a new character-for-sale. Training and skilling up for data core production wasn't free either: it cost time that couldn't be used to train something else on the other two characters. If you have two characters trained as far as you want (because the next clone level is too expensive, and you don't want your T2 cruiser specialist to be able to fly a titan, and have no desire for your disposable cyno alt to cost more than a beta clone) that slot is effectively "free".
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1384
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 22:53:00 -
[387] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP. Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.
Weren't the values 1M ISK and 1k LP for a block of 5 datacores? Have they sunk this low already just on Singularity?
Tessla Coil wrote:Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill.
With the 1M/1k price point, this is going to be closer to 4 data cores per share of a BS kill, each core costing about 200k ISK. So the floor price for FW data cores will be 200k. Datacore farmers will only be losing about 2/3 of their income (1/2 from the RP nerf, 1/3 from the FW floor putting pressure on the old price of 260k).
The people I'm feeling the most empathy for right now are those who were enjoying Faction Warfare before Inferno. They will be facing a completely different game after Inferno, complete with new players: those who join FW purely for the ISK farming, and will manipulate battles to suit their own avarice.
|
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.13 23:15:00 -
[388] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP. Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100. Weren't the values 1M ISK and 1k LP for a block of 5 datacores? Have they sunk this low already just on Singularity? Tessla Coil wrote:Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill. With the 1M/1k price point, this is going to be closer to 4 data cores per share of a BS kill, each core costing about 200k ISK. So the floor price for FW data cores will be 200k. Datacore farmers will only be losing about 2/3 of their income (1/2 from the RP nerf, 1/3 from the FW floor putting pressure on the old price of 260k). The people I'm feeling the most empathy for right now are those who were enjoying Faction Warfare before Inferno. They will be facing a completely different game after Inferno, complete with new players: those who join FW purely for the ISK farming, and will manipulate battles to suit their own avarice.
I can't dig up the reference I am quoting for the numbers, but I am certain about what I read and saw. It is buried deep within who knows how many threads screaming about the unfairness of this attack on the players who took the time to grind up the skills on the chars.
And even assuming your numbers are right over mine, a 2/3 hit on income, that is fair?????? It is all going to be irrelevant to me soon enough. The last of my high sec based accounts lapses in early June. I have and enough of giving CCP money for constant game design changes to my income streams, let alone the constant and increasing attacks in game that CCP clearly revels in.
Am I alone in shutting down accounts? Maybe. CCP better hope that I am the only one.
Otherwise, it is going to very interesting reading CCP stumble all over themselves to reverse the damage to the subscription base. Who knows, maybe the marketing dept figures that the drop in high sec based subs will be made up for and then some by more people joining in low sec and null sec. Maybe the devs who hate high sec so much have got it right.
We shall see. |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 00:40:00 -
[389] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog. FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
"First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap" - http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659
"We do realize a 16x multiplier to be quite high, which is why we will keep looking at this situation and change it if need be." - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1278754#post1278754
So that 200k ISK + 200LP isnt very relevent, its actually a floating price, its high point is 16 times its low point
|
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 01:01:00 -
[390] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog. FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
"First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap" - http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659"We do realize a 16x multiplier to be quite high, which is why we will keep looking at this situation and change it if need be." - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1278754#post1278754So that 200k ISK + 200LP isnt very relevent, its actually a floating price, its high point is 16 times its low point
Yes, I read the dev blog, but I don't see how this multiple tier thing is relevant. Enlighten me. |
|
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 01:16:00 -
[391] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:Ten Bulls wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog. FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
So that 200k ISK + 200LP isnt very relevent, its actually a floating price, its high point is 16 times its low point Yes, I read the dev blog, but I don't see how this multiple tier thing is relevant. Enlighten me.
One day a FW player might be able to buy a datacore for 200K ISK + 200LP, the next day/week/month the same datacore might only cost them 50K ISK + 50LP.
Im not sure what the high and low points are specifically. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
117
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 04:49:00 -
[392] - Quote
Eaorgan Dax wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that. I think you missed school somehow......... CCP missing profit because people buy plex in game.......... Right..... Ok, let me help you out there..... PLEX, is bought from CCP, every PLEX in the game has been bought from CCP, so how does CCP not make profit? Thank you. Our fellow subscribers miss this point more often than not.
284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Francisco Bizzaro
105
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 06:38:00 -
[393] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Malcanis wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Let me just throw this in here.
One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)
Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)
Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable. Not free since I am paying for the acct. But considering I'd be doing that anyway for the fully skilled character that needs no more training for what I want him to do, not an issue either. Two empty character slots with nothing to use them for but train up 20M SP characters and sell them. Total passive income at no cost for that specific character. I'd argue the training character income is actually less passive than the datacores. You have to at least log in every couple of days to update the skill queue. Okay, it's not a high level of activity. But a lot of Eve jobs are like that - not intensive activity, but you need to tend to them every once in a while or they stop producing.
The datacore farming is different. You talk to the agent on Jan 1, and don't think about him again until Dec 31 when you pay him another visit. Passive.
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1384
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 06:58:00 -
[394] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:I can't dig up the reference I am quoting for the numbers, but I am certain about what I read and saw.
Mea culpa GÇö had forgotten about the dynamic LP store nonsense.
Tessla Coil wrote:Am I alone in shutting down accounts?
I will not so much be shutting down accounts but letting them lapse as my various forms of income disappear. Maybe I will join FW and make 200M ISK/hr from blowing up other capsuleer's ships? That will not last long before it gets nerfed to oblivion, since that income will distract people from nullsec at which point the null overlords will declare war on FW. No doubt there are enough null drones to stage battles such that they pick and choose which FW store is worth how much for how long. Gaming the system is what they excel at.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1436
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 07:36:00 -
[395] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Malcanis wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Let me just throw this in here.
One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)
Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)
Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable. Not free since I am paying for the acct. But considering I'd be doing that anyway for the fully skilled character that needs no more training for what I want him to do, not an issue either. Two empty character slots with nothing to use them for but train up 20M SP characters and sell them. Total passive income at no cost for that specific character. I'd argue the training character income is actually less passive than the datacores. You have to at least log in every couple of days to update the skill queue. Okay, it's not a high level of activity. But a lot of Eve jobs are like that - not intensive activity, but you need to tend to them every once in a while or they stop producing. The datacore farming is different. You talk to the agent on Jan 1, and don't think about him again until Dec 31 when you pay him another visit. Passive.
That's a pretty lame thing to argue.
If I can be bothered to reset some of my PO2 characters to show time in game, you'd see a total of a couple of hours after 5 months. Do you really want to use that as an argument? I'd say less than a day in game over the course of a year for 10B is about as good as it gets for passive income. About equal with the time in game to collect and market the datacores for under a billion.
Try something a little less contrary next time you post.
Mr Epeen
There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Francisco Bizzaro
105
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 07:55:00 -
[396] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:That's a pretty lame thing to argue.
If I can be bothered to reset some of my PO2 characters to show time in game, you'd see a total of a couple of hours after 5 months. Do you really want to use that as an argument? I'd say less than a day in game over the course of a year for 10B is about as good as it gets for passive income. About equal with the time in game to collect and market the datacores for under a billion.
Try something a little less contrary next time you post.
Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income. |
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
128
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 12:32:00 -
[397] - Quote
To be consistent, they should ban BPO research next.
Once a BPO is researched, you dont have to do anything to keep getting the benefits of research.
Or make all BPO's degrade over time ? |
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 13:20:00 -
[398] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:I can't dig up the reference I am quoting for the numbers, but I am certain about what I read and saw. Mea culpa GÇö had forgotten about the dynamic LP store nonsense. Tessla Coil wrote:Am I alone in shutting down accounts? I will not so much be shutting down accounts but letting them lapse as my various forms of income disappear. Maybe I will join FW and make 200M ISK/hr from blowing up other capsuleer's ships? That will not last long before it gets nerfed to oblivion, since that income will distract people from nullsec at which point the null overlords will declare war on FW. No doubt there are enough null drones to stage battles such that they pick and choose which FW store is worth how much for how long. Gaming the system is what they excel at.
I agree on Goons et al using this to control the datacore market, and by extension, T2 invention costs. I envision a situation where they their traders get together at the beginning of the month, decide which racial datacores/modules they wish to invest or divest in, then making the necessary trading moves.
Once that is done, they give word for their fleets to wipe out or join whatever faction is necessary to control said factional datacore market. It will be quite sad / funny watching the goons drop supercap fleets on FW fights and wiping out BOTH sides, to ensure their members are the only ones to generate LP from sov structure kills.
But I am positive this will never, ever happen. Because Soundwave would never, ever design a mechanism that would benefit his ex-alliance mates, the goons, while hurting so many others. I say ex-alliance mates, because even though Soundwave did the 2007 Goon presentation at Fanfest, he would never remain a Goon after joining CCP. Tthat was 5 years ago. I am positive that when he joined CCP, he left all his friends and ingame loyalty at the CCP door, and now designs game mechanisms that are completely neutral, and would never have a Goon / null sec bias.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3759
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 14:01:00 -
[399] - Quote
Goons have zero presence in FW. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 14:52:00 -
[400] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Goons have zero presence in FW.
You are correct, just like they have zero presence in high sec.
Them organizing burn Jita, underwriting 2 different racial ice interdictions, and underwriting Hulkageddon, none of those actions had a presence in high sec.
Goons clearly have no history at all with interfering in other regions of space than null. They have zero financial interest in high sec, and I am sure they will have financial interest in applying pressure in datacore pricing. |
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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
657
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 14:55:00 -
[401] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income. Unless you used a yearly subscription charge, R&D agents will cancel research as soon as your monthly subscrition ends. You can no longer accumulate RP points on a dead account until its re-subed, CCP killed this back in 2010 pretty much like ghost training.
As for the agents...I didn't even get 3000m3 worth of datacores sitting in a GSC at the moment. Not impressive after a year, 5 agents with level 4in the research for one character. Unless the problem is the fact that everyone is doing it, some with many (and others with multiple of many) maybe the problem....but lol at the fact that as the T2 material requirements shrink the more risk adverse people will become until fewer people are flying T2 ships should the price skyrocket because the supply/demand ends up being out of whack. Grats guys, keep up the work...lets get CCP to just remove T2 ships while we are at it . |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 15:23:00 -
[402] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income. Unless you used a yearly subscription charge, R&D agents will cancel research as soon as your monthly subscrition ends. You can no longer accumulate RP points on a dead account until its re-subed, CCP killed this back in 2010 pretty much like ghost training. As for the agents...I didn't even get 3000m3 worth of datacores sitting in a GSC at the moment. Not impressive after a year, 5 agents with level 4in the research for one character. Unless the problem is the fact that everyone is doing it, some with many (and others with multiple of many) maybe the problem....but lol at the fact that as the T2 material requirements shrink the more risk adverse people will become until fewer people are flying T2 ships should the price skyrocket because the supply/demand ends up being out of whack. Grats guys, keep up the work...lets get CCP to just remove T2 ships while we are at it . Love2BuyHulk Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
265
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 15:54:00 -
[403] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Unless you used a yearly subscription charge, R&D agents will cancel research as soon as your monthly subscrition ends. You can no longer accumulate RP points on a dead account until its re-subed, CCP killed this back in 2010 pretty much like ghost training. As for the agents...I didn't even get 3000m3 worth of datacores sitting in a GSC at the moment. Not impressive after a year, 5 agents with level 4in the research for one character. Unless the problem is the fact that everyone is doing it, some with many (and others with multiple of many) maybe the problem....but lol at the fact that as the T2 material requirements shrink the more risk adverse people will become until fewer people are flying T2 ships should the price skyrocket because the supply/demand ends up being out of whack. Grats guys, keep up the work...lets get CCP to just remove T2 ships while we are at it .
You are doing it right. It's 2.2 datacores a day, per agent, no matter how you slice it. If you are smart you will make back the 200 mill you spent in skill books in less than 3 months. Then the OMFGWTF profits will just roll in.. soon you will be rocking out free T1 cruisers every month. |
Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx Rookie Empire
163
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 16:30:00 -
[404] - Quote
datacore farming...
Way to easy, remove that from the game. Make datacore BPC's come only from sites.
CCP and players will be better off. |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 16:35:00 -
[405] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote:I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP. Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.
Say le's say gets 1 tenth of the kill, and gets 800 LP.
So, he goes to the LP store, plunks down 800K, burns his 800 LP, and now has 20 datacores. 20 datacores at a cost of 40,000 each.
Let's say he picked up molecular engineering datacores from a Minne LP store. They are only used in trivial things like Damage Control II's. No one would ever need to fit those to a ship, so a completely trivial example, right? I am sure there won't be a need for that datacore.
In the meantime, the person who did all the standings grind to get the L4 R&D agents, blew 40 million on skillbook, burned who knows how much training time, well, they can get 1.8-2.2 datacores/ day, from this "passive" income, right now.
Let's call it 2 datacores/day. But wait, that is being hammered back to ONE datacore/ day very soon, and gets to pay 10,000 for that datacore.
Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill. Let's not even begin to get into the thousands they get for a sov structure.
So suddenly the Fw guys are flooding the market with datacores that cost them 40,000. Let's say the FW datacore supplier market decides it wants 100% profit, and they sell for 80,000 each on the market. Market will decide it, but I think my estimate is not out of whack.
So the R&D guy, he is now getting 1 datacore worth 80,000, less the 10,000 ISK fee, for a total of 70,000 ISK/day. He was getting 600,000 /day (2 datacores worth 300K each).
600,000 vs 70,000.....Nope, just a slight nerf. Payback time on that skill book.....40 million / 70,000 = 571 days.
Nicely done Soundwave.
Only slight correction: it is 1.8-2.2 datacores per day per agent. The skillbook you mentioned is needed for accessing multiple agents up to 6. So your final calculation should be: 40 million /70,000/6 = 95 days.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1436
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 16:43:00 -
[406] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:That's a pretty lame thing to argue.
If I can be bothered to reset some of my PO2 characters to show time in game, you'd see a total of a couple of hours after 5 months. Do you really want to use that as an argument? I'd say less than a day in game over the course of a year for 10B is about as good as it gets for passive income. About equal with the time in game to collect and market the datacores for under a billion.
Try something a little less contrary next time you post.
Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income.
Sorry I didn't realize this whole thing was all about you and your inability to plan ahead with a skill queue. Your little scenario affects less than one tenth of one percent of the current players. Most of whom have a clue.
The 300,000 players not affected by Minmatar brain block are managing just fine.
Mr Epeen
There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 17:05:00 -
[407] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:Tessla Coil wrote:I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP. Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.
Say le's say gets 1 tenth of the kill, and gets 800 LP.
So, he goes to the LP store, plunks down 800K, burns his 800 LP, and now has 20 datacores. 20 datacores at a cost of 40,000 each.
Let's say he picked up molecular engineering datacores from a Minne LP store. They are only used in trivial things like Damage Control II's. No one would ever need to fit those to a ship, so a completely trivial example, right? I am sure there won't be a need for that datacore.
In the meantime, the person who did all the standings grind to get the L4 R&D agents, blew 40 million on skillbook, burned who knows how much training time, well, they can get 1.8-2.2 datacores/ day, from this "passive" income, right now.
Let's call it 2 datacores/day. But wait, that is being hammered back to ONE datacore/ day very soon, and gets to pay 10,000 for that datacore.
Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill. Let's not even begin to get into the thousands they get for a sov structure.
So suddenly the Fw guys are flooding the market with datacores that cost them 40,000. Let's say the FW datacore supplier market decides it wants 100% profit, and they sell for 80,000 each on the market. Market will decide it, but I think my estimate is not out of whack.
So the R&D guy, he is now getting 1 datacore worth 80,000, less the 10,000 ISK fee, for a total of 70,000 ISK/day. He was getting 600,000 /day (2 datacores worth 300K each).
600,000 vs 70,000.....Nope, just a slight nerf. Payback time on that skill book.....40 million / 70,000 = 571 days.
Nicely done Soundwave. Only slight correction: it is 1.8-2.2 datacores per day per agent. The skillbook you mentioned is needed for accessing multiple agents up to 6. So your final calculation should be: 40 million /70,000/6 = 95 days.
Sorry, you are correct on the per agent issue. I would suggest the vast, vast majority stop that skill at L4 because of the huge training commitment to L5, and use 5 agents, so payback time is more like 120 days, but we are quibbling.
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.05.14 22:54:00 -
[408] - Quote
Dang the whining and moaning about datacore farming. I have increased my do not show posts by ____, by a large margin just from this thread alone.
All of you complaining about CCP moving your cheese, should really have a look at THIS.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Kuranei
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 08:18:00 -
[409] - Quote
I guess the ones who actually use there data cores for invention just got completely overlooked. No wander the data cores mostly used cost 300k + now. I have never sold any of my data cores to the market..never. it really gave me the perception of invention was free if I owned the bpo, so I was able to turn a profit quicker than repaying the cost of the cores. I run two Inventors and can burn threw a 1000 cores in less than a day. especially doing anything above cruiser size inventions. So what does this hit mean ?
Just like RL, what happens when a product cost more to make? it will cost more to buy. I will pass on the cost to the consumers. Or stop making said ship until it becomes more profitable. Every Invention/manufacturing tool out there caculates the cost of the data cores to determine or not if a ship is profitable. so yea we know...believe me we know what to make and what not to make. which will create a shortage in said ships, which will drive prices even higher (a viscious cycle). If you guys think paying 160-280mil for T2 ships is expensive now. wait till the supply of mechanical data cores dries up. Which are used in every t2 ship invention. This will create a huge demand for them with a slow supply (Which always catches the eye of those pesky market manipulators ) and will create another bottleneck besides moon goo.
Hehe I have no problem with the changes..anyone who is using the data cores as intended will not. Because we will pass that cost on. You think hulks and maruaders, vagabonds and the rest of the nice new shinys cost alot now...We havent seen anything yet ! But hey null -sec is so fat and rich now..they can afford it. |
nat longshot
New Eden Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 08:36:00 -
[410] - Quote
CCP Sounware put the beer down and listen to what is beening said for once.
Becuase of the moves ccp is makeing everything in the market as double in price allmost. unless this is how ccp is pushing people to buy plexs with real money so they can get isk so ccp makes more money becuase they messed up and had lay off because alot of people to keep ccp open. if thats the case your breaking the game because of greed oh wait we all read the mail you a ccp are ok i with greed. Point in case Noble Exchange store. That did not work so puch in game prices high so people buy plexs so they have isk and you get even more cash geezzz what a plan.
The market if messed up you kill the rouge drones and now your killing datacore given the above i see ccp greed clearly now what going to happen when the players a were done and ccp is kill by its own greed. Man the Ceo a nut job if he does the datacore stuff. without the people geting the core T2 stuff will die off no one will buy it your Morons. |
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Francisco Bizzaro
109
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 09:05:00 -
[411] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:That's a pretty lame thing to argue.
If I can be bothered to reset some of my PO2 characters to show time in game, you'd see a total of a couple of hours after 5 months. Do you really want to use that as an argument? I'd say less than a day in game over the course of a year for 10B is about as good as it gets for passive income. About equal with the time in game to collect and market the datacores for under a billion.
Try something a little less contrary next time you post.
Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income. Sorry I didn't realize this whole thing was all about you and your inability to plan ahead with a skill queue. Your little scenario affects less than one tenth of one percent of the current players. Most of whom have a clue. The 300,000 players not affected by Minmatar brain block are managing just fine. Again, you fail to understand the point. (And for a man who belongs to the "It's all about me" corp, I assume you will forgive me for the personal example which I used to illustrate the point. Thanks.)
I'm just pointing out that all other income generation in Eve requires you to tend to it periodically or they stop producing results. This includes your character farming business, which was your example, because this discussion really is apparently all about you.
Datacore farming is different. The pile of datacores keeps getting bigger, perpetually, with no intervention. It is passive.
Is that clear by now? I hope so, because I tend to believe that a person who hasn't understood something after it's repeated three times is unlikely to benefit from me repeating it a fourth. |
Francisco Bizzaro
109
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 09:26:00 -
[412] - Quote
Double post. |
Zora'e
Nasty Pope
36
|
Posted - 2012.05.15 23:14:00 -
[413] - Quote
Killer Gandry wrote:Zora'e wrote: At the same time I also know that (at least) null/wh's are very profitable if someone bothers to take the time to make them that way and people are missing out on a lot of potential fun by not going there and experiencing it for themselves. However, you can't make a chihuahua turn into a mountain lion just by demanding that it do so. It will just make the chihuahua shake and shiver and have a heart attack. Then you have a dead chihuahua (cancelled account) on your hands.
I think you miss a very large point there. There are also those who have limited gametime. So they aren't really seeing any point in logging in and then being called to fight most of the time without having the chance to build up any assets for themselves. For casual players it's a lot harder to maintain a PvP life style then for the almost no-lifers who practicly live in EVE or have people with even less life making the Isk for them. Should they log in then to get aggravated by those who have loads more time to hop into (often) pointless or useless CTA's etc? I have seen it in various alliances where people with a socalled FC tag keep calling CTA's or HD's for 2 or 3 neuts somehwhere. They then expect that everyone drops what they are doing and form up all over the place. God knows howmany hours later the CTA or HD drops and most of the time it was just another pointless exercise. The no-lifer can easy continue then with his stuff whereas the casual player most often has to log off during the fleet or right after. No making Isk to support the pvp life the alliance cries about. Now the uproar comes alive that there are many ways to make Isk. True enough, but let's just not factor in that those too need time plus you often need another character to do it. This then requires another account or you need to train / purchase another character for it. So let's invest even more money / Isk. But not all can do the money making on the alt while the main is huddling around after some e-peen FC who just loves the attention of the group straddling after him. The few Isk someone can make from Datacores is hardly worth while to mention. Simply because they invested time and Isk into getting the standings and the skills up to par to make some Isk on datacore sales. If CCP in their infinite wisdom is gonna do yet another nerf in favour of certain play styles then please cast away the word Sandbox.
I've lived in High, Low, Null and WH's. I know the profitability of all 4 areas. I also know what is needed to live in all 4 areas successfully. Been there. Done that, and *gasp* I had a life while doing so with limited play time. I also fairly clearly stated that you can't force people to play a play style they have no desire to play, and attempting to do so will end with account cancellations. So really.. not sure why you are arguing your point with me and what I said. Maybe take the totality of my post into consideration FIRST.. before you pick out one small part (taken out of context) to make your 'point' when in fact... you have no point to make in consideration of my post.
It seems to me more than anything else, you jumped on a small portion of my post to beat your drum. However take that small portion of my post in context, and you have no drum to beat.
Have a nice day. Cupcake. In EVE Online...-á-á A Friend will calm you down when you are angry after getting Ganked.., but a Best Friend will fly along beside you commanding a Strike Group singing "Someones Gonna Get It!!!".-á ~Zora'e-áI once popped a frigate with a Battleship just for the LOL's... Concord didn't think it was funny. |
Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 11:07:00 -
[414] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jastra wrote:Malcanis wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:(...)
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system. And just when you thought CCP couldn't out-fuk themselves, they manage to successfully shatter a new boundary of stupidity. What's wrong with moving T2 production to 0.0? hell why not move the whole game out there right, I mean no one actually plays in highsec or has any right at all to use the sandbox they way they want.... So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't?
Null sec already has total exclusive control over the primary resources for all T2 construction GÇô what more advantage do they need? The reason that more construction does not take place in 0.0 is down to the nature of the people who play the game there.
Basically there are too many Visigoths and not enough Romans. Nobody tries to build an empire in null, they just build the bare minimum to exploit the resources and move on to the next thing they can shoot. If you could build caps in hi-sec there would be no industry at all in null.
This is why there are no market hubs down there.
What is needed is a re-vamp of the way sov is held. The current mechanism for capturing sov is fine (ish) but once it is taken it is yours forever. They need a mechanism where sov degrades over time, and it can only be improved through industrial activity. Break the sov level up into distinct levels and tie certain activities to those levels, being sure to link cap construction and moon goo harvesting to the highest level and you have a system that encourages null sec alliances to actually build empires, not just control territory.
Unfortunately I donGÇÖt think many null sec alliances would want this change. As I said, too many Visigoths and not enough Romans.
|
Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 12:35:00 -
[415] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Cys Root wrote:Research Project Management V is a rank 8 skill, and a memory/charisma skill at that, no one has mem/char mapped...it takes forever to train, and has absolutely no other use than R&D agents. GǪand it can still be used. Quote:With most of the science skills level V unlocks absolutely nothing in terms of items or ships, level V is only needed for mat research on a few BPOs...but a bunch more skills are needed for that as well, skills which i don't have, and no I won't be training amarr starship engineering to V just so i can research some paladin BPOs and not have mechanical engineering V stand forever useless on my skillsheet. That's your choice GÇö you choose to waste your SP, and you can't really blame anyone else for that. You also chose to train those skills to those levels, and if they haven't paid themselves back handsomely by now, you've done something wrong. Now, they've given you a great platform for branching out into other money-making schemes, so what are kvetching about? If anything your example shows why the change is needed: because the whole thing was so valuable that people did what you did, to the extent you did, and that kind of passive income generation is something that EVE is quite clearly moving away from.
If CCP was at all serious about eliminating passive income they would eliminate tech moons first - a huge never ending ISK fountain with no SP requirements. Either I missed the dev blog or CCP are only trying to eliminate passive income where their own corps / alliances are not affected. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 13:04:00 -
[416] - Quote
So much time and human effort to nerf average player passive income when all these resources would be far more useful on passive moon mining income.
Because of course everyone knows you can buy 1 Titan per month with 5 or even 15 R&D agents passive income and how bad this is for the game ho wait you can barely buy a battleship and fit it wit 15 agents at best rp rate and sell price ...
Malcanis law once again, from now on those older players with their armada of alts farming lvl4's and incursions in high sec claiming how high sec is a gold mine, will now move their armada of alts farm faction lp's.
Awesome moving from average regular individual player (mister every one playing one or two accounts and 2 or 3 char) to some claiming in a few months they're making 5bil month of data cores (with their armada of alts witch doesn't make that much per character).
I'd like to know the exact amount of isk per month is generated with data cores PER CHARACTER. I'm sure it's not that impressive.
This is the only number that should interest everyone, not how much dude "NobrainerLotsOfSpareTime" does with his armada of 20 alts.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3783
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 13:21:00 -
[417] - Quote
I'm not sure Malcanis' Law applies in this case, since as far as I am aware, Soundwave never claimed that this would benefit new players. Nor has anyone else that I've seen seriously advanced that argument, come to that.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
625
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 13:35:00 -
[418] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I'm not sure Malcanis' Law applies in this case, since as far as I am aware, Soundwave never claimed that this would benefit new players. Nor has anyone else that I've seen seriously advanced that argument, come to that.
Yay, it's more a double standards issue than a one-sidedness issue.
PS, offtopic; I am seriously thinking about getting a new sig. A Fazmarai's Law would be fine. EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1513
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 19:47:00 -
[419] - Quote
Imryn Xaran wrote: So it sounds like what you're saying is that hi-sec is entitled to have the overwhelming advantage for all forms of construction? And that making anything preferrable to build in 0.0 is breaking the "sandbox", but gimping 0.0 for building everything isn't?
Null sec already has total exclusive control over the primary resources for all T2 construction GÇô what more advantage do they need? The reason that more construction does not take place in 0.0 is down to the nature of the people who play the game there.
Basically there are too many Visigoths and not enough Romans. Nobody tries to build an empire in null, they just build the bare minimum to exploit the resources and move on to the next thing they can shoot. If you could build caps in hi-sec there would be no industry at all in null.
This is why there are no market hubs down there.
What is needed is a re-vamp of the way sov is held. The current mechanism for capturing sov is fine (ish) but once it is taken it is yours forever. They need a mechanism where sov degrades over time, and it can only be improved through industrial activity. Break the sov level up into distinct levels and tie certain activities to those levels, being sure to link cap construction and moon goo harvesting to the highest level and you have a system that encourages null sec alliances to actually build empires, not just control territory.
Unfortunately I donGÇÖt think many null sec alliances would want this change. As I said, too many Visigoths and not enough Romans. [/quote]
Seriously? You think Nullsec doesn't do major industrial activity because the players are too foaming-at-the-mouth-crazy to build things? First, let me show you Mr. Supercap builder. Then in this corner, there's Mr. POS farmer. The reason you don't do other industry in Null is because it is in no way better than doing it in Hisec. In fact, it's worse. Here's why: 1) Limited Slots: There's at most 1 Station per system, and it probably doesn't have many Manufacturing slots. 2) POS Arrays are expensive: Compared to Station slots, POS costs are enormous (do you ever manufacture at your HS POS?) 3) Logistics: Components are gonna be bought from Jita, because nowhere in Null has all the goo to build everything, and Hidden Belts don't really have low ends. 4) Logistics: The lower population density of Null means that you will almost instantly over saturate the local market with what you build, so you'll be shipping it to Jita. 5) Competition: You'll be competing with JF pilots who will seed the market at a small markup over Jita+Fuel, and Fuel isn't very expensive for modules. 6) Risk: Bringing a BPO to nullsec leaves you with the risk that it will end up locked in a station that you can't access.
Basically, nobody builds things in Nullsec because it offers no advantages, and several disadvantages over building the same things in HS and shipping them down. (Bulky items, like T1 ships are often manufactured from imported, compressed minerals).
Anyway, what is an Empire but territory that you control for the purpose of economic or military exploitation? If that territory is only good at producing raw materials, and sucks at converting them into finished goods, why not move the raw materials somewhere that's better at finishing them? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
63
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 20:29:00 -
[420] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Seriously? You think Nullsec doesn't do major industrial activity because the players are too foaming-at-the-mouth-crazy to build things? First, let me show you Mr. Supercap builder. Then in this corner, there's Mr. POS farmer. The reason you don't do other industry in Null is because it is in no way better than doing it in Hisec. In fact, it's worse. Here's why: 1) Limited Slots: There's at most 1 Station per system, and it probably doesn't have many Manufacturing slots. 2) POS Arrays are expensive: Compared to Station slots, POS costs are enormous (do you ever manufacture at your HS POS?) 3) Logistics: Components are gonna be bought from Jita, because nowhere in Null has all the goo to build everything, and Hidden Belts don't really have low ends. 4) Logistics: The lower population density of Null means that you will almost instantly over saturate the local market with what you build, so you'll be shipping it to Jita. 5) Competition: You'll be competing with JF pilots who will seed the market at a small markup over Jita+Fuel, and Fuel isn't very expensive for modules. 6) Risk: Bringing a BPO to nullsec leaves you with the risk that it will end up locked in a station that you can't access.
Basically, nobody builds things in Nullsec because it offers no advantages, and several disadvantages over building the same things in HS and shipping them down. (Bulky items, like T1 ships are often manufactured from imported, compressed minerals).
Anyway, what is an Empire but territory that you control for the purpose of economic or military exploitation? If that territory is only good at producing raw materials, and sucks at converting them into finished goods, why not move the raw materials somewhere that's better at finishing them? This^^^
I've looked at the numbers, and unless things are drastically changed by CCP, producing locally out in 0.0 would be a pipe dream.
According to the bloodtear report, a large grav site (the most profitable site to cycle) contains 2M units of trit. So assuming you could cycle the large grav site once per day, that's 2M units of trit per day per level 3 indy system. The moderate grav site has 10M units of trit. By comparison, a single drake takes 2.6M units of trit. So if you're cycling grav sites, you could produce enough trit for 1-4 battlecruisers a day per system. A large alliance may burn through 14 Drakes a day - not to mention battleships, capital production, other ships, etc.
There's not going to be a significant amount of trit production in 0.0, so the only way to build locally is to import lowends. However, ships and modules usually take up less volume, so it's better to just produce those in empire and ship them out. With mineral compression, you can get away with producing ships locally at slightly less cost and significantly more effort than importing them, but that doesn't work when it comes to producing modules locally (since the modules are what you use for compression, anyway).
Compounding the lack of trit, is the problem of 0.0 outposts. The amount of manufacturing slots in a single empire constellation is staggering, when compared to even an entire 0.0 region. Not only is lack of trit heavy ores crippling 0.0 production, but a lack of manufacturing slots also limits local production. Another factor in this, is that only one outpost can be built per system, so your refinery isn't even in the same system as your manufacturing center, making moving uncompressed minerals even more effort. This further makes producing in empire, and shipping everything out even more attractive.
With the Drone poo gone, people will mine more and export minerals to empire, which is good for pvp. However, this won't bring manufacturing out of empire. The only thing that would work is if the material to make something took up less volume than the finished product, it became feasible somehow to mine 10-20x more trit, dropping the one outpost per system rule, or significantly boosting the outpost upgrades to have 50 slots each. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Omnituens
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:03:00 -
[421] - Quote
They might as well scrap the R&D system and redesign it from the ground up.
Release skill points in science. Refund books. Let people decide if they still want to be scientists in the "new system". I got into R&D back when it was the lottery. Since then, the skills are just sat there being wasted. |
Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
97
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:17:00 -
[422] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote: According to the bloodtear report, a large grav site (the most profitable site to cycle) contains 2M units of trit. So assuming you could cycle the large grav site once per day, that's 2M units of trit per day per level 3 indy system. The moderate grav site has 10M units of trit. By comparison, a single drake takes 2.6M units of trit. So if you're cycling grav sites, you could produce enough trit for 1-4 battlecruisers a day per system. A large alliance may burn through 14 Drakes a day - not to mention battleships, capital production, other ships, etc.
There's not going to be a significant amount of trit production in 0.0, so the only way to build locally is to import lowends. However, ships and modules usually take up less volume, so it's better to just produce those in empire and ship them out. With mineral compression, you can get away with producing ships locally at slightly less cost and significantly more effort than importing them, but that doesn't work when it comes to producing modules locally (since the modules are what you use for compression, anyway).
Grav sites are mostly for high-end ores. Null-sec has plenty of asteroid belts with giant veldspar asteroids, ready to be mined by the industrious null-sec miner. There is no reason a null-sec production corp in need of tritanium couldn't mine the veldspar from regular asteroid belts.
I do agree that null-sec production is less feasible, but that is not a problem with the production mechanic. Rather, it is a problem with the ease of transporting goods into null-sec. If you couldn't just bridge and cyno-jump all the minerals and modules you ever wanted with nearly no risk of being ambushed or attacked, it would be more feasible to have local production in null-sec.
Over the years, CCP has made travel in null-sec too easy and safe, to the point where any need is supplied from the Jita market instead of being built locally.
|
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1515
|
Posted - 2012.05.16 21:27:00 -
[423] - Quote
Aron Croup wrote:
Grav sites are mostly for high-end ores. Null-sec has plenty of asteroid belts with giant veldspar asteroids, ready to be mined by the industrious null-sec miner. There is no reason a null-sec production corp in need of tritanium couldn't mine the veldspar from regular asteroid belts.
I do agree that null-sec production is less feasible, but that is not a problem with the production mechanic. Rather, it is a problem with the ease of transporting goods into null-sec. If you couldn't just bridge and cyno-jump all the minerals and modules you ever wanted with nearly no risk of being ambushed or attacked, it would be more feasible to have local production in null-sec.
Over the years, CCP has made travel in null-sec too easy and safe, to the point where any need is supplied from the Jita market instead of being built locally.
Wrong way around. Making travel in nullsec harder makes manufacturing (especially T2) even less enticing than it is now. When travel into and through Null was very hard (before Carriers), people still exported materials to be produced in Hisec. Nullsec has always exported raw materials and imported finished goods. That's not going to change.
Building things in a relatively lawless area is usually stupid. Why do you think the Wild West had mines and ranches but no factories or meat processing plants? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
37
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 10:37:00 -
[424] - Quote
How about imposing export tariffs?
If hi-sec empires were to impose export tariffs on "finished goods" but not on raw materials then it might be more profitable to buy raw materials in empire but do the actual manufacturing in null.
You wouldn't need to move priceless BPO's down to null - just BPC's so the risk there is negligible.
The low population density in null is at least partially the result of the play style down there. The fact is that many players who like to make their ISK through T1 / 2 manufacturing, industry, mining, exploration, etc have the impression that they will be treated as targets of opportunity by everyone they encounter in null. This impression has been given to them by the never ending succession of knuckle draggers here and in game that insist that the only correct way to play EVE is to PvP in space.
The fact remains that the main obstacle to having a trade hub in null is the null residents.
An empire is much more than an area of territory that you control. An empire is a unifying identity with its own culture, industry and laws. CCP has given us most of the tools needed to build an empire in null, but nobody so far has done it. Null remains a wasteland, with the occasional spot of civilisation, populated by roaming bands of visigoths intent on destroying everything they can.
If an alliance wanted to build a trade hub a good place to start would be to offer full funding and a guarantee of protection to industrialists, with a proven track record, via a trusted third party to set up in their territory. Then they would have to actually follow through and protect the industrialists - basically they would have to replace Concord and couldn't go haring off after a juicy target 10 systems away, and thats where it all falls apart.
The key tool that CCP haven't give us is a police force. It is pretty obvious to me that CCP don't want anything permanent or long lasting in null, they want it to be a constant battle ground with fleets of ships clashing everywhere and laying waste to everything. It is pretty stupid of them to suggest, let alone try to encourage industrialists to set up in that environment.
Basically it boils down to this - CCP wants your stuff blown up. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 11:54:00 -
[425] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I'm not sure Malcanis' Law applies in this case, since as far as I am aware, Soundwave never claimed that this would benefit new players. Nor has anyone else that I've seen seriously advanced that argument, come to that.
Indeed, and this has never applied to new players nor new players ever had/claim to get stockpiles of isk from data cores sales. You know as well as I do a new player choosing to take the industrial road will not make huge millions of isk out of his main data cores, older players and some nerds playing dozens alts do.
Soundwave did it, stating his huge income revenue from his alts data cores sales and "omg that's too much". What an example: "hey if you play my game and don't play like me you suck".
What's the real problem here, the amount of isk generated by a guy playing his main and probably one alt to get R&D rp's or those guys playing 2 accounts plus 10 to 30 R&P/PI alt accounts (x3 char's) doing nothing else but that? |
Francisco Bizzaro
112
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 12:00:00 -
[426] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Malcanis wrote:I'm not sure Malcanis' Law applies in this case, since as far as I am aware, Soundwave never claimed that this would benefit new players. Nor has anyone else that I've seen seriously advanced that argument, come to that.
Yay, it's more a double standards issue than a one-sidedness issue. PS, offtopic; I am seriously thinking about getting a new sig. A Fazmarai's Law would be fine. Please do. There are a number of questionable numbers in your sig. The one I'd point out as obvious (and unlikely to derail the thread as badly as the others) is "14". |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 12:07:00 -
[427] - Quote
Omnituens wrote:They might as well scrap the R&D system and redesign it from the ground up.
Release skill points in science. Refund books. Let people decide if they still want to be scientists in the "new system". I got into R&D back when it was the lottery. Since then, the skills are just sat there being wasted.
I'd actually like to recover those skill points too and actually put them in to guns, I'd for sure get out much more from those skill points in guns than R&D |
RubyPorto
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1521
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 18:46:00 -
[428] - Quote
Imryn Xaran wrote:How about imposing export tariffs?
If hi-sec empires were to impose export tariffs on "finished goods" but not on raw materials then it might be more profitable to buy raw materials in empire but do the actual manufacturing in null.
You wouldn't need to move priceless BPO's down to null - just BPC's so the risk there is negligible.
The low population density in null is at least partially the result of the play style down there. The fact is that many players who like to make their ISK through T1 / 2 manufacturing, industry, mining, exploration, etc have the impression that they will be treated as targets of opportunity by everyone they encounter in null. This impression has been given to them by the never ending succession of knuckle draggers here and in game that insist that the only correct way to play EVE is to PvP in space.
The fact remains that the main obstacle to having a trade hub in null is the null residents.
An empire is much more than an area of territory that you control. An empire is a unifying identity with its own culture, industry and laws. CCP has given us most of the tools needed to build an empire in null, but nobody so far has done it. Null remains a wasteland, with the occasional spot of civilisation, populated by roaming bands of visigoths intent on destroying everything they can.
If an alliance wanted to build a trade hub a good place to start would be to offer full funding and a guarantee of protection to industrialists, with a proven track record, via a trusted third party to set up in their territory. Then they would have to actually follow through and protect the industrialists - basically they would have to replace Concord and couldn't go haring off after a juicy target 10 systems away, and thats where it all falls apart.
The key tool that CCP haven't give us is a police force. It is pretty obvious to me that CCP don't want anything permanent or long lasting in null, they want it to be a constant battle ground with fleets of ships clashing everywhere and laying waste to everything. It is pretty stupid of them to suggest, let alone try to encourage industrialists to set up in that environment.
Basically it boils down to this - CCP wants your stuff blown up.
1) The tariff idea is terrible. Paying an NPC tax on your ship and its contents every time you hop a gate into Low/Null is ridiculous (and that's how it would have to be done)
2) So you're saying that Null Industrialists should *Import* BPCs into null? To take advantage of the more expensive raw materials, more expensive manufacturing and research slots, and increased risk of losing jobs to hostile actions. Sounds like a great deal.
3) The low population density is a result of a few factors, one is that only about 7-8 accounts per system can make a higher income than HS missioning, while any number of people can be in a HS system making that income. Another is that living in Null takes significantly more effort than living in high.
4) If you think an Empire has to have unifying Culture, Laws, and Industry, the British, Roman, and Khanate empires would like to have a word with you. None of them had a unified Culture, none of them had the same laws throughout, and all of them had some areas that produced finished goods and some that produced raw materials. But you were only three off of your three ways to judge an Empire, so... at least you didn't go negative, I guess.
5) You're confusing a "Stocked Market" with a "Trade Hub." The HS trade hubs rely on Easy logistics to function. I can buy something in ita, stick it in a freighter and AP it to my destination with very little risk. In a hypothetical nullsec Hub, I'd have to Jump it to my destination to get equivalent safety, and that costs money, has a lower capacity, and requires a cyno (extra effor). Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
638
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 20:51:00 -
[429] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Malcanis wrote:I'm not sure Malcanis' Law applies in this case, since as far as I am aware, Soundwave never claimed that this would benefit new players. Nor has anyone else that I've seen seriously advanced that argument, come to that.
Yay, it's more a double standards issue than a one-sidedness issue. PS, offtopic; I am seriously thinking about getting a new sig. A Fazmarai's Law would be fine. Please do. There are a number of questionable numbers in your sig. The one I'd point out as obvious (and unlikely to derail the thread as badly as the others) is "14".
The signature is pre-Fanfest and was updated only to reflect Issler Dainze's arrival to CSM. EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 20:53:00 -
[430] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Malcanis wrote:I'm not sure Malcanis' Law applies in this case, since as far as I am aware, Soundwave never claimed that this would benefit new players. Nor has anyone else that I've seen seriously advanced that argument, come to that.
Yay, it's more a double standards issue than a one-sidedness issue. PS, offtopic; I am seriously thinking about getting a new sig. A Fazmarai's Law would be fine. didn't you claim you were unsubscribing
whatever happened to that |
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
640
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 20:58:00 -
[431] - Quote
EvilweaselSA wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Malcanis wrote:I'm not sure Malcanis' Law applies in this case, since as far as I am aware, Soundwave never claimed that this would benefit new players. Nor has anyone else that I've seen seriously advanced that argument, come to that.
Yay, it's more a double standards issue than a one-sidedness issue. PS, offtopic; I am seriously thinking about getting a new sig. A Fazmarai's Law would be fine. didn't you claim you were unsubscribing whatever happened to that
I resubbed for a month right before Burn Jita and after giving a look at mineral prices. Now i am mining in a BS and having a modicum of fun in my litle corner... that's it, when i'm not getting stuck in some exhumers traffic jam at the exit of the station.
I am less than impressed with hulkageddoners' performance in my system. EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Nionn Achren
Lazy Old Logistics Associates
33
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 20:59:00 -
[432] - Quote
Well...if CCP hires people from nullsec alliances the development path should drive to 0.0
Since "carebearing in high sec" is killing EvE , let's all go to carebear in null, because is good, feed your epeen and you can be an important sheep making rich your masters...
The conspiracy theory here, in a plain bussines plot , consist of reducing the isk income of rich nerds of hi, to make them buy plexes cause if they want to have pimped stuff they haven't enough income. The rich nullcesers buy plexes wiyh isk, to recover it selling them the stuff. Also, eventally raid high to destroy that carebear stuff to create the need of more. CCP gets money and the people harvesting null are playing for free and having fun.
Everybody and his dog earns... all are happy and fun... Hippy times!!!
So , CCP, take apart your disguise, grow up a pair and get ride of high, that will show men between childs.
Objects in mirror are closer than they appear... |
EvilweaselSA
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 21:32:00 -
[433] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I resubbed for a month right before Burn Jita and after giving a look at mineral prices. Now i am mining in a BS and having a modicum of fun in my litle corner... that's it, when i'm not getting stuck in some exhumers traffic jam at the exit of the station. I am less than impressed with hulkageddoners' performance in my system. so in other words, ccp can safely ignore all the highsec "people" who claim they will unsubscribe if they don't get their way
i'm gonna link this next time someone tries it
thanks for the info! |
Jed Dye
Quantum Pathways
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 22:47:00 -
[434] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote: I'd like to know the exact amount of isk per month is generated with data cores PER CHARACTER. I'm sure it's not that impressive.
50m a month with no interaction or 100m a month doing RP missions daily per character so i don't see what all the fuss is about.?? With that in mind, it takes 8 months to get a free gtc pretty much, which is crap and not really worth the skills to train for, although i trained mine for the T2 bpo lottery for which i never won anything :( |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.17 23:05:00 -
[435] - Quote
Jed Dye wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote: I'd like to know the exact amount of isk per month is generated with data cores PER CHARACTER. I'm sure it's not that impressive.
50m a month with no interaction or 100m a month doing RP missions daily per character so i don't see what all the fuss is about.?? With that in mind, it takes 8 months to get a free gtc pretty much, which is crap and not really worth the skills to train for, although i trained mine for the T2 bpo lottery for which i never won anything :(
This is right and I guess you'll agree it's not that important as isk amount. Plus it's not free of action since you need to haul stuff and raise (v-e-r-y slowly) standings to get the best isk result, witch is still not impressive.
My question for you is, do you really think this needs any sort of nerf, think it as per individual/ playing a single character and requiring all those training skills/standings efforts for this purpose, since T2 BPO's lottery does not exist any more?
I mean it's not like if your agents were all in the same corporation at the same system and at your character's station, free of skills training/standing efforts and hauling.
Once again, I still think the problem does not come from your main or alt activity for the amount of isk you get out of it, the main problem comes out of a single person doing this with several to a huge amount of alts doing this. Just like PI and just like the guy with his armada of alts cleaning the belt in front of your eyes.
Because this alts behaviour is the single player skills and effort put in that is wasted. Now for random dude playing his armada of alts ow much will he loose? -he will still be making billions, just less billions but does he really cares? |
Velho Scott
Booteco
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 22:48:00 -
[436] - Quote
Simply,
Like SKILL training, ONE CHAR per Account can do Research points.
|
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
19
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 10:48:00 -
[437] - Quote
Velho Scott wrote:Simply,
Like SKILL training, ONE CHAR per Account can do Research points.
Eh. But research requires skill training... I would have to stop training my main for 6 months to train my two alts to the same efficiency on research. Should those 6 months just go to waste?
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Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 17:15:00 -
[438] - Quote
Well, this account has about 3 weeks left on it, then it lapses.
The high sec datacore devastation created by the null sec element within CCP is to be honest, trivial. I am grinding maybe 225-240M / month off of this account in datacores.
But what it represents is key. This is just another attack in the overall co-ordinated campaign by soundwave (who may or may not STILL be a goon), CSM, cfc, and the other null zealots against high sec.
In the past year, in no particular order of date or impact:
1. Introduction of Tornado and buff of Catalysts, which was a huge buff for high sec suicide gankers. 2. Incursion income crushed, the vast majority of which was generated in high sec. 3. goons underwrote attacks against 2 separate racial ices, an attack mostly that hurt high sec 4. goon underwrote hulkageddon, a direct attack against high sec 5. cfc and their allies choked off supplies of tech, which affected all who have no direct access to tech. Impact of this was again, mostly against high sec. 6. the failed lawyer's last post on Ten Ton Hammer states clearly the goon plans on attacking any and all high sec income sources, thanks to CCP's changes in game mechanics. 7. soundwave had Drone alloys removed. This had a huge effect on a specific zone of null sec (it was pure co-incidence that this DID NOT affect any of the CFC). But this was still a huge hit against high sec mission runners. 8. soundwave had Meta 0 items removed, another massive hit to high sec mission runners. Supposedly this improves things for high sec mfg'ers, but the loss of meta 0 items I am sure far outweighs any benefits. 9. soundwave implemented the datacore devastation. 10. PI high sec taxes rise approx 10-fold. 11. soundwave has been quoted as saying that he wants to move more T2 mfg from high sec to low/null sec.
That is just the stuff that I can remember.
And of course soundwave in his Ten Ton Hammer interview stated that he has an "emergency button" option of reducing bounties by 10% and higher empire taxes.
Bottom line, within a year high sec will be an economic wasteland, and the null sec zealot element will have achieved their goal. soundwave and the other devs in his cadre I am sure will be just as thrilled as their friends/allies within the in-game null sec power blocs.
That is unless, of course, the high sec players don't unsub in large quantities. That is the only thing that can stop this. Maybe a large contingent of the high sec player base will quit, and CCP will have to take action to stem the bleeding. Or maybe soundwave, cfc leadership, et al have calculated that the high sec player base will just meekly roll over and accept the destruction of their economic base.
Time will tell. But during that time, CCP won't be receiving income from this account of mine.
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1547
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 22:01:00 -
[439] - Quote
Tessla Coil wrote: (who may or may not STILL be a goon)
Those are, in fact, the options. I may or may not be Barrack Obama. You may or may not be Sarah Palin. They're true statements because OR returns true if either statement is true.
Quote: In the past year, in no particular order of date or impact:
1. Introduction of Tornado and buff of Catalysts, which was a huge buff for high sec suicide gankers. 2. Incursion income crushed, the vast majority of which was generated in high sec. 3. goons underwrote attacks against 2 separate racial ices, an attack mostly that hurt high sec 4. goon underwrote hulkageddon, a direct attack against high sec 5. cfc and their allies choked off supplies of tech, which affected all who have no direct access to tech. Impact of this was again, mostly against high sec. 6. the failed lawyer's last post on Ten Ton Hammer states clearly the goon plans on attacking any and all high sec income sources, thanks to CCP's changes in game mechanics. 7. soundwave had Drone alloys removed. This had a huge effect on a specific zone of null sec (it was pure co-incidence that this DID NOT affect any of the CFC). But this was still a huge hit against high sec mission runners. 8. soundwave had Meta 0 items removed, another massive hit to high sec mission runners. Supposedly this improves things for high sec mfg'ers, but the loss of meta 0 items I am sure far outweighs any benefits. 9. soundwave implemented the datacore devastation. 10. PI high sec taxes rise approx 10-fold. 11. soundwave has been quoted as saying that he wants to move more T2 mfg from high sec to low/null sec.
That is just the stuff that I can remember.
And of course soundwave in his Ten Ton Hammer interview stated that he has an "emergency button" option of reducing bounties by 10% and higher empire taxes.
Bottom line, within a year high sec will be an economic wasteland, and the null sec zealot element will have achieved their goal. soundwave and the other devs in his cadre I am sure will be just as thrilled as their friends/allies within the in-game null sec power blocs.
That is unless, of course, the high sec players don't unsub in large quantities. That is the only thing that can stop this. Maybe a large contingent of the high sec player base will quit, and CCP will have to take action to stem the bleeding. Or maybe soundwave, cfc leadership, et al have calculated that the high sec player base will just meekly roll over and accept the destruction of their economic base.
Time will tell. But during that time, CCP won't be receiving income from this account of mine.
Things you forgot: 1. Removal of Insurance payouts to Suicide gankers, a huge nerf to them. 2. Sanctum Nerf, instantly making tens of billions of Isk worth of Sov upgrades worthless (not to mention, nerfing income), besides Incursions were producing almost a third of the Isk that all the bounties in EvE produced concentrated on a few hundred (vs several thousand) pilots. 3. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (see Gall Ice Interdiction Announcement). 4. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (each Hulk has something like 200m of tech in it, and the CFC is part of OTEC) 5. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (a Tech cartel finally working? OMGWTFBBQ! Seriously, it's been tried a bunch of times and this is the first time it worked) 6. How is that CCP's fault? Players are talking about creating content to relieve their boredom 7. And an OMGWTF Enormous boon to miners everywhere. CCP admitted that they cocked up when they introduced the Drone regions, and just finally got around to fixing it. Drones were horrible for the game in a profession balance sense. 8. You salvaged your missions? For Meta 0 mods? Whaa? And the boon to miners is enormous. 9. That's a nerf to everyone's income. Anyone who's been around a while has some datacores farming. But it's helping FW players (the other Miners) who have been being screwed over since launch. 10. Low and Null are now required to build and defend POCOs, and blues can't start planets in blues space. 11. "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system." Soundwave seems to want to tie the areas together more, rather than Null Exporting Raw materials and Importing finished goods.
These are just
Bottom line, within 3 weeks you'll be gone and EvE will continue to die the same slow death it's been dying since 2003. The death of increasing Subs. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
1024
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 22:18:00 -
[440] - Quote
+1 to what Ruby Porto said, although I'd like to add something to point 8 (no more meta 0 item drops): This one I find rather annoying. Hardly anybody uses meta 0 items when meta 1 and 2 items are better and nearly the same price. The only people who have a constant demand for meta 0 items are t2 producers, who need them as materials for the respective t2 modules. I feel that this was basically just another stealthy ninja-nerf to invention.
-.- |
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1550
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 22:36:00 -
[441] - Quote
Kuranei wrote:I guess the ones who actually use there data cores for invention just got completely overlooked. No wander the data cores mostly used cost 300k + now. I have never sold any of my data cores to the market..never. it really gave me the perception of invention was free if I owned the bpo, so I was able to turn a profit quicker than repaying the cost of the cores. I run two Inventors and can burn threw a 1000 cores in less than a day. especially doing anything above cruiser size inventions. So what does this hit mean ?
Datacores you mine aren't... ah screw it. They're free, like candy. Using them yourself makes more isk than selling them, and Veldspar's been shooting out my ass so long, Chribba's become my number two in the centipede. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1550
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 22:38:00 -
[442] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:+1 to what Ruby Porto said, although I'd like to add something to point 8 (no more meta 0 item drops): This one I find rather annoying. Hardly anybody uses meta 0 items when meta 1 and 2 items are better and nearly the same price. The only people who have a constant demand for meta 0 items are t2 producers, who need them as materials for the respective t2 modules. I feel that this was basically just another stealthy ninja-nerf to invention.
It was a buff to T1 producers who were exposed to competition from a silly source: Missionbears. But when you buff one market player's income, another's must fall. Zero sum game and all. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
1024
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 23:10:00 -
[443] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Zimmy Zeta wrote:+1 to what Ruby Porto said, although I'd like to add something to point 8 (no more meta 0 item drops): This one I find rather annoying. Hardly anybody uses meta 0 items when meta 1 and 2 items are better and nearly the same price. The only people who have a constant demand for meta 0 items are t2 producers, who need them as materials for the respective t2 modules. I feel that this was basically just another stealthy ninja-nerf to invention.
It was a buff to T1 producers who were exposed to competition from a silly source: Missionbears. But when you buff one market player's income, another's must fall. Zero sum game and all.
True, but missing my point. In a player driven economy, players will try to buy the best goods for the lowest price. And meta 0 items are per definition the worst products, and their price is now determined by the mineral cost, whereas meta 1-4 items drop as loot and are often sold by mission runners extremely cheap, so at least meta 1 & 2 items are almost always more cost effective for the buyer than meta 0. When I was still a little hatchling and building t1 stuff in Kaunokka, I had to learn that it was next to impossible to sell meta0s above raw mineral value- with the exception of ammo and drones, of course. I'd like to ask any t1 producer: do you feel that people buy more meta 0 now, can you now make a profit of your meta 0 autocannons (for example) after the escalation changes? -.- |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
196
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 23:27:00 -
[444] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Tessla Coil wrote: (who may or may not STILL be a goon)
Those are, in fact, the options. I may or may not be Barrack Obama. You may or may not be Sarah Palin. They're true statements because OR returns true if either statement is true. Quote: In the past year, in no particular order of date or impact:
1. Introduction of Tornado and buff of Catalysts, which was a huge buff for high sec suicide gankers. 2. Incursion income crushed, the vast majority of which was generated in high sec. 3. goons underwrote attacks against 2 separate racial ices, an attack mostly that hurt high sec 4. goon underwrote hulkageddon, a direct attack against high sec 5. cfc and their allies choked off supplies of tech, which affected all who have no direct access to tech. Impact of this was again, mostly against high sec. 6. the failed lawyer's last post on Ten Ton Hammer states clearly the goon plans on attacking any and all high sec income sources, thanks to CCP's changes in game mechanics. 7. soundwave had Drone alloys removed. This had a huge effect on a specific zone of null sec (it was pure co-incidence that this DID NOT affect any of the CFC). But this was still a huge hit against high sec mission runners. 8. soundwave had Meta 0 items removed, another massive hit to high sec mission runners. Supposedly this improves things for high sec mfg'ers, but the loss of meta 0 items I am sure far outweighs any benefits. 9. soundwave implemented the datacore devastation. 10. PI high sec taxes rise approx 10-fold. 11. soundwave has been quoted as saying that he wants to move more T2 mfg from high sec to low/null sec.
That is just the stuff that I can remember.
And of course soundwave in his Ten Ton Hammer interview stated that he has an "emergency button" option of reducing bounties by 10% and higher empire taxes.
Bottom line, within a year high sec will be an economic wasteland, and the null sec zealot element will have achieved their goal. soundwave and the other devs in his cadre I am sure will be just as thrilled as their friends/allies within the in-game null sec power blocs.
That is unless, of course, the high sec players don't unsub in large quantities. That is the only thing that can stop this. Maybe a large contingent of the high sec player base will quit, and CCP will have to take action to stem the bleeding. Or maybe soundwave, cfc leadership, et al have calculated that the high sec player base will just meekly roll over and accept the destruction of their economic base.
Time will tell. But during that time, CCP won't be receiving income from this account of mine.
Things you forgot: 1. Removal of Insurance payouts to Suicide gankers, a huge nerf to them. 2. Sanctum Nerf, instantly making tens of billions of Isk worth of Sov upgrades worthless (not to mention, nerfing income), besides Incursions were producing almost a third of the Isk that all the bounties in EvE produced concentrated on a few hundred (vs several thousand) pilots. 3. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (see Gall Ice Interdiction Announcement). 4. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (each Hulk has something like 200m of tech in it, and the CFC is part of OTEC) 5. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (a Tech cartel finally working? OMGWTFBBQ! Seriously, it's been tried a bunch of times and this is the first time it worked) 6. How is that CCP's fault? Players are talking about creating content to relieve their boredom 7. And an OMGWTF Enormous boon to miners everywhere. CCP admitted that they co cked up when they introduced the Drone regions, and just finally got around to fixing it. Drones were horrible for the game in a profession balance sense. 8. You salvaged your missions? For Meta 0 mods? Whaa? And the boon to miners is enormous. 9. That's a nerf to everyone's income. Anyone who's been around a while has some datacores farming. But it's helping FW players (the other Miners) who have been being screwed over since launch. 10. Low and Null are now required to build and defend POCOs, and blues can't start planets in blues space. 11. "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system." Soundwave seems to want to tie the areas together more, rather than Null Exporting Raw materials and Importing finished goods. These are just Bottom line, within 3 weeks you'll be gone and EvE will continue to die the same slow death it's been dying since 2003. The death of increasing Subs.
I'm sure that the loss of a few hundred thousand per Catalyst was a real big deal for the suicide gankers.
Really, are you trying to be moronic? |
Zhihatsu
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.05.19 23:31:00 -
[445] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Tessla Coil wrote: (who may or may not STILL be a goon)
Those are, in fact, the options. I may or may not be Barrack Obama. You may or may not be Sarah Palin. They're true statements because OR returns true if either statement is true. Quote: In the past year, in no particular order of date or impact:
1. Introduction of Tornado and buff of Catalysts, which was a huge buff for high sec suicide gankers. 2. Incursion income crushed, the vast majority of which was generated in high sec. 3. goons underwrote attacks against 2 separate racial ices, an attack mostly that hurt high sec 4. goon underwrote hulkageddon, a direct attack against high sec 5. cfc and their allies choked off supplies of tech, which affected all who have no direct access to tech. Impact of this was again, mostly against high sec. 6. the failed lawyer's last post on Ten Ton Hammer states clearly the goon plans on attacking any and all high sec income sources, thanks to CCP's changes in game mechanics. 7. soundwave had Drone alloys removed. This had a huge effect on a specific zone of null sec (it was pure co-incidence that this DID NOT affect any of the CFC). But this was still a huge hit against high sec mission runners. 8. soundwave had Meta 0 items removed, another massive hit to high sec mission runners. Supposedly this improves things for high sec mfg'ers, but the loss of meta 0 items I am sure far outweighs any benefits. 9. soundwave implemented the datacore devastation. 10. PI high sec taxes rise approx 10-fold. 11. soundwave has been quoted as saying that he wants to move more T2 mfg from high sec to low/null sec.
That is just the stuff that I can remember.
And of course soundwave in his Ten Ton Hammer interview stated that he has an "emergency button" option of reducing bounties by 10% and higher empire taxes.
Bottom line, within a year high sec will be an economic wasteland, and the null sec zealot element will have achieved their goal. soundwave and the other devs in his cadre I am sure will be just as thrilled as their friends/allies within the in-game null sec power blocs.
That is unless, of course, the high sec players don't unsub in large quantities. That is the only thing that can stop this. Maybe a large contingent of the high sec player base will quit, and CCP will have to take action to stem the bleeding. Or maybe soundwave, cfc leadership, et al have calculated that the high sec player base will just meekly roll over and accept the destruction of their economic base.
Time will tell. But during that time, CCP won't be receiving income from this account of mine.
Things you forgot: 1. Removal of Insurance payouts to Suicide gankers, a huge nerf to them. 2. Sanctum Nerf, instantly making tens of billions of Isk worth of Sov upgrades worthless (not to mention, nerfing income), besides Incursions were producing almost a third of the Isk that all the bounties in EvE produced concentrated on a few hundred (vs several thousand) pilots. 3. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (see Gall Ice Interdiction Announcement). 4. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (each Hulk has something like 200m of tech in it, and the CFC is part of OTEC) 5. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (a Tech cartel finally working? OMGWTFBBQ! Seriously, it's been tried a bunch of times and this is the first time it worked) 6. How is that CCP's fault? Players are talking about creating content to relieve their boredom 7. And an OMGWTF Enormous boon to miners everywhere. CCP admitted that they co cked up when they introduced the Drone regions, and just finally got around to fixing it. Drones were horrible for the game in a profession balance sense. 8. You salvaged your missions? For Meta 0 mods? Whaa? And the boon to miners is enormous. 9. That's a nerf to everyone's income. Anyone who's been around a while has some datacores farming. But it's helping FW players (the other Miners) who have been being screwed over since launch. 10. Low and Null are now required to build and defend POCOs, and blues can't start planets in blues space. 11. "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system." Soundwave seems to want to tie the areas together more, rather than Null Exporting Raw materials and Importing finished goods. These are just Bottom line, within 3 weeks you'll be gone and EvE will continue to die the same slow death it's been dying since 2003. The death of increasing Subs. I'm sure that the loss of a few hundred thousand per Catalyst was a real big deal for the suicide gankers. Really, are you trying to be moronic?
Did you just read part of the post? |
Stella Daverson
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 00:41:00 -
[446] - Quote
This is supposed to be a frigging SAND Box, so who let the cat take a dump in the dirt. Soundwave needs to serve us all or get lost. I dont like null sec its people or its slave hive mentality. CCP you need to check this guy and make sure his direction is yours. The Data Core portion of the game is functioning fine, it takes effort, and planning to achieve said goals, what those who get the data cores do with them should not influence the game. Mining with guns is a joke, you nurfed the drone regions for that very reason. Don't make the same mistake with doing R&D at the point of a gun. And who ITH said that the null sec crowd should get the cream of the crop of EVE to begin with. They are less than 15% of you CUSTOMER BASE and have access to untold wealth in minerals, ice and moon goo. Now you want to nurf R&D at the point of a gun, sounds like GOON to me.
Here's an idea get rid of High sec all together period, Have all new players and old high sec players automatically placed into one of the Null Sec "We are Your Fing Lord" Alliances to be AF, and finish killing this game.
Having a know traitor at the helm will not only result in defeat but a ship wreck.
Quite letting the 15% ZOO population i.e. Monkeys run it and consider the bottom line, Your Profits.
Time to get the boat out and go fishing, EVE is officially Goon Nuffed to death. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1551
|
Posted - 2012.05.20 03:33:00 -
[447] - Quote
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Tessla Coil wrote: (who may or may not STILL be a goon)
Those are, in fact, the options. I may or may not be Barrack Obama. You may or may not be Sarah Palin. They're true statements because OR returns true if either statement is true. Quote: In the past year, in no particular order of date or impact:
1. Introduction of Tornado and buff of Catalysts, which was a huge buff for high sec suicide gankers. 2. Incursion income crushed, the vast majority of which was generated in high sec. 3. goons underwrote attacks against 2 separate racial ices, an attack mostly that hurt high sec 4. goon underwrote hulkageddon, a direct attack against high sec 5. cfc and their allies choked off supplies of tech, which affected all who have no direct access to tech. Impact of this was again, mostly against high sec. 6. the failed lawyer's last post on Ten Ton Hammer states clearly the goon plans on attacking any and all high sec income sources, thanks to CCP's changes in game mechanics. 7. soundwave had Drone alloys removed. This had a huge effect on a specific zone of null sec (it was pure co-incidence that this DID NOT affect any of the CFC). But this was still a huge hit against high sec mission runners. 8. soundwave had Meta 0 items removed, another massive hit to high sec mission runners. Supposedly this improves things for high sec mfg'ers, but the loss of meta 0 items I am sure far outweighs any benefits. 9. soundwave implemented the datacore devastation. 10. PI high sec taxes rise approx 10-fold. 11. soundwave has been quoted as saying that he wants to move more T2 mfg from high sec to low/null sec.
That is just the stuff that I can remember.
And of course soundwave in his Ten Ton Hammer interview stated that he has an "emergency button" option of reducing bounties by 10% and higher empire taxes.
Bottom line, within a year high sec will be an economic wasteland, and the null sec zealot element will have achieved their goal. soundwave and the other devs in his cadre I am sure will be just as thrilled as their friends/allies within the in-game null sec power blocs.
That is unless, of course, the high sec players don't unsub in large quantities. That is the only thing that can stop this. Maybe a large contingent of the high sec player base will quit, and CCP will have to take action to stem the bleeding. Or maybe soundwave, cfc leadership, et al have calculated that the high sec player base will just meekly roll over and accept the destruction of their economic base.
Time will tell. But during that time, CCP won't be receiving income from this account of mine.
Things you forgot: 1. Removal of Insurance payouts to Suicide gankers, a huge nerf to them. 2. Sanctum Nerf, instantly making tens of billions of Isk worth of Sov upgrades worthless (not to mention, nerfing income), besides Incursions were producing almost a third of the Isk that all the bounties in EvE produced concentrated on a few hundred (vs several thousand) pilots. 3. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (see Gall Ice Interdiction Announcement). 4. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (each Hulk has something like 200m of tech in it, and the CFC is part of OTEC) 5. How is that CCP's fault? Players created content in an effort to reap financial gain (a Tech cartel finally working? OMGWTFBBQ! Seriously, it's been tried a bunch of times and this is the first time it worked) 6. How is that CCP's fault? Players are talking about creating content to relieve their boredom 7. And an OMGWTF Enormous boon to miners everywhere. CCP admitted that they co cked up when they introduced the Drone regions, and just finally got around to fixing it. Drones were horrible for the game in a profession balance sense. 8. You salvaged your missions? For Meta 0 mods? Whaa? And the boon to miners is enormous. 9. That's a nerf to everyone's income. Anyone who's been around a while has some datacores farming. But it's helping FW players (the other Miners) who have been being screwed over since launch. 10. Low and Null are now required to build and defend POCOs, and blues can't start planets in blues space. 11. "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system." Soundwave seems to want to tie the areas together more, rather than Null Exporting Raw materials and Importing finished goods. These are just Bottom line, within 3 weeks you'll be gone and EvE will continue to die the same slow death it's been dying since 2003. The death of increasing Subs. I'm sure that the loss of a few hundred thousand per Catalyst was a real big deal for the suicide gankers. Really, are you trying to be moronic?
Actually, the insurance nerf drove gankers from using T1 Fit Brutixes to using T2 Fit Catalysts. A T1 fit brutix used to cost less than 10m to lose once insurance was taken into account. A T2 fit Catalyst costs around 15m to lose.
The hull cost isn't important, it's the overall cost per gank, and that has risen (even more in higher sec systems where you need 2 Cats).
In addition Hulks aren't the only ships people gank. The Insurance Nerf, even combined with the introduction of the tornado, still increased the cost of suicide ganking a freighter (almost doubled it).
Finally, you gonna comment on the rest of my posts, or did you just try to pass off silly arguments about hull price as arguing ove Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
332
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 12:28:00 -
[448] - Quote
Ten Bulls wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote: Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?
It detracts from the standing benefits for mission runners. CCP Soundwave wrote: We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.
T2 production is already heavily influenced by zeo-sec, they have exclusive control of supply. CCP Soundwave wrote: This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.
Where ISK farmers high on the FW priority list ? CCP failing
Got to agree, this makes little sense to me, I am in favor of changes to the datacore mechanic if you're deeming it "free isk" perhaps drops in hacking or arch sites or whatever...
However, changing it to benefit FW pilots because you can't think of any other benefits for FW pilots right at the moment doesn't seem a reasonable way to go to me.
You are constantly nerfing one part of the game to keep happy another part of the game and making some awful decisions in the process.
Just because FW needs to be "fixed" doesn't mean datacores should "go to them".
It doesn't really make sense as far as income or possible side benefits for someone doing invention or being able to expand your invention capabilities to one day garner all the necessary parts. In order to do this you are saying I need to run an invention POS and do FW at the same time ?
It's faulty gameplay... please think of another path here. People in all walks of gameplay in eve should have a suitable amount of progression they can partake of when the time is right.
If you're a combat pilot there are plenty of paths. To go from pirating to running a corp to an alliance to holding space...
Mining hopefully will be fixed where people can mine in empire, then low-sec then 0.0...
Guys doing industrial lab work should have some kind of progression that allows them availability of the parts THEY need too.
So one day they are buying all the parts and getting them off the market, then they implment some miners and suddenly cut costs by 5%, then they can get datacores however and cut another 5%... becoming an FW corp to do that just makes zero sense to me.
Mining with guns is bad, but making datacores with guns is good?
Stop smoking the pipe soundwave. CSM7 Skype Leak
|
Carton Mantory
Occassus Republica Trade Wind Commodities
15
|
Posted - 2012.05.29 12:44:00 -
[449] - Quote
Wow after 9 years we should just do what is right.
High sec should become one constellation with Concord as ruling party and no faction police. Everything else should be low sec /null sec . In low sec you have faction police.
Let pod pilots be forced to fight for the needs or get placed in 6 systems. I really think the time for a different game out of CCP is needed. Nothing really has changed in 9 years except cosmetic.
EVE was a break thru game back in 2003 but its now time to really change it and make like "Firefly".
One major fix is to allow jumping to other systems not thru jump gates but ending up in random points for individuals and fleet jumps like BattleStar Galactica . This game has great potential. CCP needs to hire Sci fi fans not marketing people. |
Jaangel
Cloak and Badgers
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:08:00 -
[450] - Quote
is it just me that thinks the issues with alot of eve stem from 0.0.
It's not profitable by one person(Or lots of one person's)
but is very profitable by large alliances.
coupled with the fact it's very static with large pools of wealth no one wants/needs to move.
data cores and afk wealth in general arn't the issues it's the fact it doesn't move.
I also think that invention needs a boost as it is still hard to compete with BPO holders in certain areas of the market.
Making it harder to earn data cores may compound the current issues.
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