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NeoTech Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:37:00 - [391] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Thresh Avery ...otherwise there would have been no strong reason for BoB to join that alliance instead of just making a new one. Goons abused game mechanics to prevent BoB from creating a new alliance. How?
YuuLike FryLice Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:39:00 - [392] In any case, it isn't really news that CCP favors BoB. This might as well be a rage session over the sky being blue. The good thing for us is that this plus the director forums publishing will hopefully keep xX~.BoB.ReLOADed.~Xx from gaining any sort of underdog status after getting so thoroughly run into the ground.
Serj Darek Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers Reloaded	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:44:00 - [393] Originally by: YuuLike FryLice In any case, it isn't really news that CCP favors BoB. This might as well be a rage session over the sky being blue. The good thing for us is that this plus the director forums publishing will hopefully keep xX~.BoB.ReLOADed.~Xx from gaining any sort of underdog status after getting so thoroughly run into the ground. Moar pew pew and less QQ
Lizhia Birath	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:49:00 - [394] Hey, could we get some sort of list of all the alliances that has had their names changed coz they whished to and not coz it was offensive or in some other way forced? Could someone at CCP also please specify in what timeframe a namechange petition should be filed and what criteria needs to be filled for it to be OK? Right now it stands at up to atleast 3 months after alliance creation (I think) and simply need to be the wish of the members, even thou they at the time of joining had ample opportunity to creat a new alliance named in whatever way they wanted(But chose not to)
Nazowa The Scope	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:49:00 - [395] After the previous humiliations of corrupt employees now this ? CCP's best excuse is that this is a GM decision ? Maybe it is something culturally normal over there but I can certainly say it is not for the rest of the world. Sorry but it won't cut it this time. This is one drop too many...
Thresh Avery Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:50:00 - [396] Originally by: NeoTech Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Thresh Avery ...otherwise there would have been no strong reason for BoB to join that alliance instead of just making a new one. Goons abused game mechanics to prevent BoB from creating a new alliance. How? They made a corp called Band of Brothers neotech, and you can't have a duplicate name whether it's a corp or alliance. And Kuar, i don't see how them doing this stopped BoB making a new alliance instead of choosing to take KenZoku's name? Your point is irrelevant. The BoB guys could have just made a new alliance with whatever name they want, provided it didn't already exist. They're the game mechanics, they weren't abused. Abuse can only be determined when such an action is against the EULA. This was not.
SZ Rota Caldari Esto Perpetua	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:53:00 - [397] Man I hate getting lied to all the time by CCP. CCP, you did NOT have a flexible policy with regard to renaming alliances. CCP, you DID consistently make corps and alliances disband and reform to change their names. The game is about 6 years old. We have 6 years of history to see how things worked. CCP, BoB/Kenny/Beaver asked you to cheat. They asked you to do something that you hadnÆt in the past done for anyone else, nor would do for anyone else. They asked you to cheat for them, and CCP you did it. You, CCP, can blah blah blah rationalize and lie all you want, but thatÆs all it boils down to, plain and simple. I donÆt care what side of the war a person is on. I donÆt care if someone wants to be called Prince. I donÆt care if someone wants to be a weirdo and use odd symbols in a name and be referred to as æthe artist formerly known as Prince,Æ ItÆs not the name that matters. What matters is that with incidents like this, CCP demonstrates how dishonest, insulting, and unprofessional they are on some issues. This leads to the bigger question which is: If theyÆre willing to act so poorly in the public eye, what nonsense are they pulling when they know nobody is watching. To those that say ôout with the conspiracy theories and away with the tinfoil hats,ö I say, You are dodging the issue. Stop. Just stop. ItÆs all just blah blah blah to me. I, and others who are angry, do not have conspiracy theories and tales of alien abduction and CIA planned coups. BoB asked CCP to cheat for them. CCP did it. If CCP did that, and other things, on behalf of BoB, they arenÆt trustworthy. ItÆs plain, itÆs simple, itÆs public, itÆs fact. CCP might get some things right, but they got this and a bunch of other things absolutely WRONG.
Piratejoeh	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:55:00 - [398] I wonder what Icelands courts/laws would say about CCP's conduct with BoB vs the rest of the Eve Community. Now Ive only known of one lawsuit vs a game developer that won, when players sued Ultima Online and most crys people are going to sue are pointless. However I believe if someone actually did wish too pursue legal means in this case they might actually have a case. Players pay CCP to play the entertainment product CCP provides and in return for this CCP is expected to provide certain services. Now usually the EULA covers CCP and other game developer companys for almost anything from asteroids hitting their servers to them forgeting too fead their hamsters, But in this case theirs a pattern of misconduct on the company CCPs part that paying customers may be able too claim they are being disenfranchised by CCP giving a unfair advantage from small things such as name changes to huge things as prime real estate and BPO's. I know this may sound silly too many readers but I'm willing too bet CCP would lose in court if a class action lawsuit was brought up against them. (But I also know that they would recieve only a slap on the wrist) and a lawsuit would not really be worth it. On a personal note, I cannot see why any player would stay in BoB. I have my dignity and I know this is just a game but still. How could I look my self in the mirror each time I log on knowing im playing in a Alliance that cheats and I dont mean just meta gaming, but actual cheating. Id either start looking for another Alliance or another game.
clone 1 Laughing Leprechauns Corporation Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:55:00 - [399] -------------------------------------------------- The Angels Have the Phone Box
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:01:00 - [400] people who crying over a name change! Stop playing EVE and move on or STFU at least. Its a freaking name! Like I said before it's just a name boo hoo Trinity Corporate Services
Cendaliaa	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:03:00 - [401] Originally by: northwesten people who crying over a name change! Stop playing EVE and move on or STFU at least. Its a freaking name! Like I said before it's just a name boo hoo oh look another one who has no clue whats it about, what about trying to read the posts. trust me it wont hurt you...much
REDEI CEO	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:06:00 - [402] Edited by: REDEI CEO on 24/03/2009 22:07:03 Originally by: LaVista Vista Edited by: LaVista Vista on 24/03/2009 15:23:23 Grimmi, due all respect, I think this could have been solved a bit nicer. So tell me if I'm wrong, but here's what happened: 1. BOB was compromised and disbanded after they eliminated a built-in safeguard, in exchange for convenience. Enlighten US about this story please. How did they compromise a built-in safeguard? Are you talking about deleting the shares of the holding corp? How do you do that exactly. Did you try doing it yourself? Also examples of CCP intervening in Alliance names: Cult of War and Curse Alliance mkII (Xirtamvotf's ImperiumII), other cases may exist to.
Tobruk Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:09:00 - [403] Originally by: Hubris Edited by: Hubris on 24/03/2009 21:00:27 Hey everyone Avon (of bob/kenny/beavers) thinks its ok if there is a protest in jita that crashes the server over this. He stuck up for players to be able to protest in the 4S name debockle. "Avon - it was a peaceful protest" BTW the people that started the protest got banzored for crashing the server. I am not saying that we shoudld, unlike avon i am saying it would be a bad idea. He also speaks at great lengths about the selective interpretation of rules "Avon - What I want are rules that are enforced fairly and equally. If something is not allowed, then it should be the same for everyone." Anyway enjoy this walk down memory lane with your best bob/kenny/beaver buddy Avon. Originally by: Avon Posted - 2005.11.09 23:37:00 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I feel mistreated should i; A: Attempt to communicate with CCP trough diplomatic channels to convince them of their mistakes. or B: Crash the entire server, which serves no purpose other then inflicting our own grief onto others. 4S tried A. Repeatedly. CCP then said that their name was gone and was not comming back and that option A was no longer open. Those are the facts. B would never have happened if CCP had looked fully in to the matter before telling the entire community that their descision would not be reversed, and that channel A was closed. the same issue avon yet again Originally by: Avon Posted - 2005.11.09 23:57:00 Originally by: Wrangler Ok, we need to calm down again. It's ok if you are angry about what happened, no matter what "side" you are on. But please don't start fighting each other over it. Smile Shame on you Wrangler. It isn't about sides, it is about truth and justice. It is about fairness and understanding. It is about doing the right thing. he rage quits and cancels his accounts Originally by: Avon Posted - 2005.11.10 11:22:00 I have already said my accounts have been cancelled, so why bother ranting at me? We have seen the problems caused by selective enforcement of the EULA, and yet we also see a thread on this forum about the creation of can art. Can art and dumping shuttles are both in violation of the same clause in the EULA, and yet again we see selective enforcement. We have seen a section of our community demonised unfairly, and now they are being treated as figures of hate. How can progress be made without compassion and forgiveness. These people have been wronged, and deserve justice. I value my principles, and I will stand by them. "We win justice quickest by rendering justice to the other party. Mohandas Gandhi" it seems that at one time est 2005 Avon actually was against selective enforcement of the rules........ best for last Originally by: Avon Posted - 2005.11.10 11:49:00 Originally by: Mallikanth Of course it selective. You want everything allowed or everything banned? I'll ignore the subtle flames and get to the real issue. I don't want either everything banned or allowed, that isn't the issue with selective enforcement. What I want are rules that are enforced fairly and equally. If something is not allowed, then it should be the same for everyone. If something is allowed, then it should be the same for everyone. How hard is that to understand? This obviously isn't the Avon we all know currently or his merry band of beavers. Has to be a different alliance and person behind these rants. Please Avon do not quit the game this time in a crazy injustice fueled rage. Ive seen people get wrecked by their own words on the forum before, but this, this is a masterpice. Avon you just got DESTROYED. ---------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:10:00 - [404] Originally by: Cendaliaa Originally by: northwesten people who crying over a name change! Stop playing EVE and move on or STFU at least. Its a freaking name! Like I said before it's just a name boo hoo oh look another one who has no clue whats it about, what about trying to read the posts. trust me it wont hurt you...much I not clueless I just think you all throwing a toy out for over a name. I don't care about the name! It doesn't EFFECT the game play. So I say again crying over a bloody name! Trinity Corporate Services
threeDspider Caldari Caldari and United Breweries The Firm.	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:11:00 - [405] Originally by: Thresh Avery They made a corp called Band of Brothers neotech, and you can't have a duplicate name whether it's a corp or alliance. And Kuar, i don't see how them doing this stopped BoB making a new alliance instead of choosing to take KenZoku's name? Your point is irrelevant. The BoB guys could have just made a new alliance with whatever name they want, provided it didn't already exist. They're the game mechanics, they weren't abused. Abuse can only be determined when such an action is against the EULA. This was not. Technically, I believe they created that corporation just after the Band of Brothers alliance was closed, which means that there was no such thing as Band of Brothers when the corporation was made, and therefore no EULA violation. Technically Actually, it works the other way around, the new Band of Brothers Reloaded Alliance name could be seen as a parody of the Band of Brothers corporation in Goonswarm, and could be liable to be renamed http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/namepolicy.asp Also, 'the BOB guys' couldn't just create a new alliance without losing sovereignty (i believe, i'm not an expert in sov rules) and paying the 1 Billion dollar charge for a new alliance. This is why so many people are frustrated by this, they've circumvented this system of penalties designed to prevent alliances being renamed just because the members want it, with the help of a GM or CCP employee.
Cendaliaa	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:13:00 - [406] Edited by: Cendaliaa on 24/03/2009 22:14:34 Originally by: northwesten Originally by: Cendaliaa Originally by: northwesten people who crying over a name change! Stop playing EVE and move on or STFU at least. Its a freaking name! Like I said before it's just a name boo hoo oh look another one who has no clue whats it about, what about trying to read the posts. trust me it wont hurt you...much I not clueless I just think you all throwing a toy out for over a name. I don't care about the name! It doesn't EFFECT the game play. So I say again crying over a bloody name! this just strengthens my point, its not about a name its about gm breaking ccps own rules, as i said read the posts and learn something.
Jack Gates Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:15:00 - [407] Originally by: Tobruk I don't think CCP has a full appreciation of how dangerous a situation like this is to their game. It is so ungodly frustrating to fight an entity in game that has developer support, its like your fighting the game itself. How long will we tolerate this **?? Is it time for another open letter to CCP? no, its already gone past that point. Frankly I find this too hard to stomach: - spawning BPOS - Handing out motherships - Changing the titan memorial rules when molles titan died - refunding titans after saying they never would 2 Titans in game died to "broken mechanics" 1 AZN and 1 D2 both pilots petitioned the loss but no exception was given. A good policy. The game has rules, they can change, but until then we live, fly, and die by them. People care that its BOB you did it for, because you have a LONG history of doing them special favors, but it really doesnÆt matter that its BOB, most people recognize that. It matters that YOU broke the rules and gave someone special treatment. WhatÆs even more insulting is that you changed their name to Band of Brothers Reloaded, as though, by not giving them their original name back somehow it would be ok. How stupid do you think we are? What a disgusting insult. This action is shameful beyond words CCP. Your failure to act last time and your continued, blatant cheating is a slap in the face to every person who plays the game. This pretty much sums it up. I'd like to add that this effects everyone in the game, not just the major 0.0 alliances; it continues a precedent for GM favoritism, like the T20 scandal, aura events scandal, etc. What happens when BoBR is finally gone? Who will be the next favorite? What if your alliance is in a conflict with the GM's special pet? We all know Beaver has GMs in its pocket, as evidenced by its leaked forums. This is horse**.
REDEI CEO	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:16:00 - [408] Edited by: REDEI CEO on 24/03/2009 22:17:20 Originally by: threeDspider Also, 'the BOB guys' couldn't just create a new alliance without losing sovereignty (i believe, i'm not an expert in sov rules) and paying the 1 Billion dollar charge for a new alliance. Exactly, you are not, so spare us, and its ISK not dollars.
Kewso	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:20:00 - [409] man the jealousy is thick...
Auroral Borealis	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:23:00 - [410] This name change probably stems from the original petition that ex-BoB filed concerning the possible hacking of Haargoth's (or whatever his name was) account. In the mean time BoB took on the ticker and name of an alt alliance as an interim measure due to the complexity of the petition. No doubt CCP investigated the allegations. This isn't favoritism in the slightest, it's a simple result of that petition. No rules were broken, because the name "Band of Brothers Reloaded." and "KenGoKu" were just switched when the petition was finished... If the petition could have been handled instantly, perhaps they would have been able to get their BoB reloaded ticker right away. Who knows. This is not a big deal. AT all. I'm as glad as anyone else that BoB/Kengoku are getting hammered in delve/querious, but this is just stupid nonsense. Don't worry though - maybe if everyone spams more "OMG CCP DEV HAX BOB T20" it'll turn into a scandal through sheer repitition.
Tobruk Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:26:00 - [411] Originally by: REDEI CEO Edited by: REDEI CEO on 24/03/2009 22:17:20 Originally by: threeDspider Also, 'the BOB guys' couldn't just create a new alliance without losing sovereignty (i believe, i'm not an expert in sov rules) and paying the 1 Billion dollar charge for a new alliance. Exactly, you are not, so spare us, and its ISK not dollars. Clearly you are not, becuase if you were you would recognize how valid his point is. Unless REDEI CEO cares to enlighten us on how bob could have done their rename without sov loss? (besides the way they did, cheating). ---------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
Lizhia Birath	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:27:00 - [412] Originally by: Auroral Borealis This name change probably stems from the original petition that ex-BoB filed concerning the possible hacking of Haargoth's (or whatever his name was) account. In the mean time BoB took on the ticker and name of an alt alliance as an interim measure due to the complexity of the petition. No doubt CCP investigated the allegations. This isn't favoritism in the slightest, it's a simple result of that petition. No rules were broken, because the name "Band of Brothers Reloaded." and "KenGoKu" were just switched when the petition was finished... If the petition could have been handled instantly, perhaps they would have been able to get their BoB reloaded ticker right away. Who knows. This is not a big deal. AT all. I'm as glad as anyone else that BoB/Kengoku are getting hammered in delve/querious, but this is just stupid nonsense. Don't worry though - maybe if everyone spams more "OMG CCP DEV HAX BOB T20" it'll turn into a scandal through sheer repitition. How come they didnt creat a new alliance with the name Band of brothers reloaded from the get go and instead choose to jump in on a excisting alt alliance?
Cendaliaa	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:28:00 - [413] Edited by: Cendaliaa on 24/03/2009 22:28:37 Originally by: Auroral Borealis This name change probably stems from the original petition that ex-BoB filed concerning the possible hacking of Haargoth's (or whatever his name was) account. In the mean time BoB took on the ticker and name of an alt alliance as an interim measure due to the complexity of the petition. No doubt CCP investigated the allegations. This isn't favoritism in the slightest, it's a simple result of that petition. No rules were broken, because the name "Band of Brothers Reloaded." and "KenGoKu" were just switched when the petition was finished... If the petition could have been handled instantly, perhaps they would have been able to get their BoB reloaded ticker right away. Who knows. This is not a big deal. AT all. I'm as glad as anyone else that BoB/Kengoku are getting hammered in delve/querious, but this is just stupid nonsense. Don't worry though - maybe if everyone spams more "OMG CCP DEV HAX BOB T20" it'll turn into a scandal through sheer repitition. there was no reason for the name change, it wasnt offensive in any way. Old BoB was disbanded and not due to hacking which BoB really hopped for. The problem isnt the name itself, its about ccp bent the rules for BoB and no other alliances got the same treatemnt but got instead: Thank you for contacting customer support. Please accept our sincere apologies for the inconvenience. However we can't change your alliance name as we have a strict policy about it. You can find more infos about it here https://support.eve-online.com/Pages...cle.aspx?id=37 . by NOT disbanding and paying the 1bil like other alliances had to they saved their sov3.
Ben Derindar Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:31:00 - [414] I feel sorry for Grimmi tbh. The GMs aren't under any obligation to ever explain themselves, but they did so here anyway. True, it's not a good look for them that the decision has taken this long to reach, but it has still been reached. And this is what they get for going out of their way. It would be sad if the fact that, most of those who are whining the loudest about all this, belong to alliances that have long claimed to take pride in not taking internet spaceships oh so seriously, wasn't also so very amusing at the same time. /Ben
Auroral Borealis	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:32:00 - [415] Because, it was a, key word, INTERIM measure. No doubt they scrambled after the petition to find something else to name their alliance, as any other alliance would have done. When CCP concluded the investigation and said "sorry, goonswarm owns your name now [you got pwnd]" they went with plan B. Any other alliance would get the same treatment, so saying this is favoritism is worse than ridiculous. Sorry I'm messing up the wildly irrational logic and flamefests, carry on.
Tobruk Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:33:00 - [416] Originally by: Piratejoeh I wonder what Icelands courts/laws would say about CCP's conduct with BoB vs the rest of the Eve Community. Now Ive only known of one lawsuit vs a game developer that won, when players sued Ultima Online and most crys people are going to sue are pointless. However I believe if someone actually did wish too pursue legal means in this case they might actually have a case. Players pay CCP to play the entertainment product CCP provides and in return for this CCP is expected to provide certain services. Now usually the EULA covers CCP and other game developer companys for almost anything from asteroids hitting their servers to them forgeting too fead their hamsters, But in this case theirs a pattern of misconduct on the company CCPs part that paying customers may be able too claim they are being disenfranchised by CCP giving a unfair advantage from small things such as name changes to huge things as prime real estate and BPO's. I know this may sound silly too many readers but I'm willing too bet CCP would lose in court if a class action lawsuit was brought up against them. (But I also know that they would recieve only a slap on the wrist) and a lawsuit would not really be worth it. On a personal note, I cannot see why any player would stay in BoB. I have my dignity and I know this is just a game but still. How could I look my self in the mirror each time I log on knowing im playing in a Alliance that cheats and I dont mean just meta gaming, but actual cheating. Id either start looking for another Alliance or another game. This why CCP has been so quite, the second this happened they were in a meeting with their legal team figuring out damage control. NO WAY ON EARTH GRIMMI wrtoe that garbage response - it was legal. CCP is currently rebooting in safe mode. Once their done and CCP legal has written an official decision for them theyÆll publish it as a statement from wrangler or whatever and, then, Do absolutely nothing - just like they did with t20. Bob will be BOBR and the rest of us will be sitting waiting for the next space MMO so we can dump this pathetic rat heap and play a game that isnÆt run by a bunch of incompetent, cheating, lowlifes. ---------------------------------------------- Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
Lizhia Birath Minmatar Rogue Industrial Group The Fifth Syndicate	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:33:00 - [417] Originally by: Ben Derindar I feel sorry for Grimmi tbh. The GMs aren't under any obligation to ever explain themselves, but they did so here anyway. True, it's not a good look for them that the decision has taken this long to reach, but it has still been reached. And this is what they get for going out of their way. It would be sad if the fact that, most of those who are whining the loudest about all this, belong to alliances that have long claimed to take pride in not taking internet spaceships oh so seriously, wasn't also so very amusing at the same time. /Ben "Could you please explain why you did as you did?" "Coz I felt like it." "Uh oh ok." Case closed
Jack Gates Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:33:00 - [418] Originally by: Auroral Borealis This name change probably stems from the original petition that ex-BoB filed concerning the possible hacking of Haargoth's (or whatever his name was) account. In the mean time BoB took on the ticker and name of an alt alliance as an interim measure due to the complexity of the petition. No doubt CCP investigated the allegations. This isn't favoritism in the slightest, it's a simple result of that petition. No rules were broken, because the name "Band of Brothers Reloaded." and "KenGoKu" were just switched when the petition was finished... If the petition could have been handled instantly, perhaps they would have been able to get their BoB reloaded ticker right away. Who knows. This is not a big deal. AT all. I'm as glad as anyone else that BoB/Kengoku are getting hammered in delve/querious, but this is just stupid nonsense. Don't worry though - maybe if everyone spams more "OMG CCP DEV HAX BOB T20" it'll turn into a scandal through sheer repitition. but there was no hacking, no eula violation, nothing that would warrant a name change, so how does this point to anything but GM favoritism? Again?
BuIIseye Amarr Pax Amarria Corp	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:53:00 - [419] Originally by: Tobruk This why CCP has been so quite, the second this happened they were in a meeting with their legal team figuring out damage control. NO WAY ON EARTH GRIMMI wrtoe that garbage response - it was legal. CCP is currently rebooting in safe mode. Once their done and CCP legal has written an official decision for them theyÆll publish it as a statement from wrangler or whatever and, then, Do absolutely nothing - just like they did with t20. Bob will be BOBR and the rest of us will be sitting waiting for the next space MMO so we can dump this pathetic rat heap and play a game that isnÆt run by a bunch of incompetent, cheating, lowlifes. Wow, calm down, its just a game/name.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.24 22:54:00 - [420] I support the decision. Should have been done right away after they lost their original alliance. I wonder how these threads would look if this happened with any other alliance. Would we see the same storm in a teacup if this happened to TCF or Morsus Mihi? I very much doubt that. Less posts and more people agreeing with the name fix is my guess. To deny BoB some semblance of their original name - how small-minded is that. Disbanding and recreating the alliance to achieve that - how is that not stupid. If some other alliance had a name change denied under similar circumstances I would understand if they are annoyed now and they simply should petition to get their 1 bn back. The whole thing started with a (by hindsight) stupid defect on how alliances work. Got fixed right afterwards. I can't see how anybody could argue in good conscience that anybody should loose their alliance that way (without the 24 hour grace period for example that any char gets). I prefer BoB being named BoB. If you want to take sov from BoB do it the old-fashioned way by destroying stuff - not by requiring them to disband their alliance to get the name fixed. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE

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