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John Zorg
Caldari
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.31 23:37:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Javelin6
Being able to just into cyno-jammed systems is OUT-FREAKIN-STANDING. Tweaks to scan res and cargo hold sizes are great too. However if fuel bays are a PITA to integrate, then how about just adjusting the fuel burn formula for portals? It would accomplish the same thing with less dev time.
Something else to consider is maybe a bonus of some sort (skill or ship) to fuel consumption for covert portals. Again it would accomplish the same thing as a dedicated fuel bay with less dev time.
And to echo my CEO: agility bonuses (or speed for that matter) on battleships is stupid. Its the automotive equivalent of putting a racing suspension on a city bus. No one gives a "flying blue f***" that you can take corners at 10 MPH instead 8.
That said I am very excited to test these changes.
Hi,
As Javelin6 said, just do the same as they did for the Jump freighter skill. 10% less fuel usage per level for a jump? I have a few questions as I have never really seen the need for these ships so have never even tried it.
- Does the Covert Jump Portal generator only uses cap?
- Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a cyno generator array(POS module) that only blackops ships can jump to?
- Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a normal cyno?
Things I would like to see:
- Covert ops cloak
- Decrease the fuel usage, that will solve the need for a fuel bay. 10% less per level.
- Allow Covert jump portal generators to create a jump bridge to a cyno jammed system.
- Increase the range to that of a titan.
Comment?
JZ
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Vitrael
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.03.31 23:39:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ephemeron
It certainly would be nice if BO were better than t1 ships as far as pure combat goes
I wouldn't even mind if they were just equal to t1 battleships and also came with properly functional jump drive, jump portal generator and cloak without targeting recalibration... and the #*&%ing high slots to use them.
I don't see a future for blackops in fleet warfare, especially not in cynojammer takedowns, and that is not a problem for me. Just being able to get around the cyno jammers with the jumpdrive will make them amusing roaming gank tools. Then all they need is lots of room for fuel and some increased range and they will be a new force of hotness for pimped-out skirmish jobs.
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Dead sir ever heard about Marauders?
Marauders are better than T1 battleships, yes, when it comes to looting missions and salvaging. For everything else they're very good at being called primary and costing more than a carrier.
-----
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.31 23:57:00 -
[63]
This is a start but only a start.
The black ops biggest failing is its limited cargo hold and limited jump range.
Wasn't this ship designed to operate behind enemy lines? The ship needs the range to jump itself and covops ships from outside an enemy's borders into their carebearing systems. It needs to have greater range than capitals, not less.
Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew! |
Javelin6
Minmatar
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2009.04.01 00:03:00 -
[64]
Originally by: John Zorg
- Does the Covert Jump Portal generator only uses cap?
Yes and No. Cap to activate and fuel is burned when ships bridge thru.
Originally by: John Zorg
- Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a cyno generator array(POS module) that only blackops ships can jump to?
No.
Originally by: John Zorg
- Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a normal cyno?
Yes.
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.04.01 00:43:00 -
[65]
wow, everyone is so focused on killing the cyno jammers nobody is thinking of all the other cool stuff getting around cyno jammers allows . . .
No more rorquals deployed in a belt in a cyno jammed system, no more hulks perma-tanking the belt rats with no danger.
More piratey things to do? bring it on YAR!
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.01 00:44:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Vitrael
Marauders are better than T1 battleships, yes, when it comes to looting missions and salvaging. For everything else they're very good at being called primary and costing more than a carrier.
1. Same goes to BO.
2. Use Marauder properly. They can last long enough to outclass the incoming DPS at the very least. At best, they can do that on their own.
--
Thanks CCP for cu |
galphi
Gallente
Unitary Senate
Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.04.01 00:55:00 -
[67]
Bypassing cyno jammers is a much needed capability, glad to see it added. Fuel bays will be extremely useful for all jump-capable ships, looking forward to this big change to be implemented.
I don't think the Blackops need a huge amount extra to make them worthwhile, but here's my 2 cents.
* Remove the scan resolution penalty from having a cloak on board. On a stealth bomber you can live with it, but on a battleship it really does make quite a difference in targeting times.
* Increase resistances. They don't need to be dps gankships, but for such a huge investment in isk I think they should have a bit of extra protection. They should get the resist bonus that the Marauder-class vessels have.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.01 01:05:00 -
[68]
Originally by: galphi
* Increase resistances. They don't need to be dps gankships, but for such a huge investment in isk I think they should have a bit of extra protection. They should get the resist bonus that the Marauder-class vessels have.
ISK price is not the argument you could win with.
ISK price solely decided by offer and demand balance and irrelevant to the "needed levels of protection".
--
Thanks CCP for cu |
Lysander Kaldenn
Viper Intel Squad
Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.04.01 01:41:00 -
[69]
Under no circumstances should the Black ops be given cov ops cloaking ability. The ship is intended for fighting behind enemy lines, not ratting behind enemy lines. Don't give isk farmers another invulnerability button, they have far too many already.
If the Black ops had the things the op suggests in addition to an increase in scan res to off set the cloak penalty, and perhaps an increase in resists they would be fine. Considering that if a Black ops gets tackled, everyone for 2 regions around comes to kill it, just like with a capital ship, it ought to have some survivability. I have pilgrim set ups with as much or more effective hp than my Redeemer.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2009.04.01 03:07:00 -
[70]
Changes looks good, real good.
So far we have:
- Covert cyno in cynojammed systems
- Small increase in cargobay
- Small increase in scan resolution
- Fuel bay (when they get mechanic working, so it wont be in this patch)
Some are arguing for longer jumprange. Thats a very tricky one IMO. The most common places into 0.0 will be out of jumprange, Hek, M-0 etc. But there is usually a second way in within range.
And as it is right now, there is no lack of systems you can jump to. In the system I am in now, I have over 40 other systems within range.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.01 05:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: TZeer
Changes looks good, real good.
So far we have:
- Covert cyno in cynojammed systems
- Small increase in cargobay
- Small increase in scan resolution
- Fuel bay (when they get mechanic working, so it wont be in this patch)
Some are arguing for longer jumprange. Thats a very tricky one IMO. The most common places into 0.0 will be out of jumprange, Hek, M-0 etc. But there is usually a second way in within range.
And as it is right now, there is no lack of systems you can jump to. In the system I am in now, I have over 40 other systems within range.
As far as jump range goes: you're thinking in too limited of a fashion.
Imagine, for once, that you're not in 0.0. Instead... say... you're in lowsec, and you want to jump from one lowsec pocket to another... because you're a pirate and you're -10...
The jump range could do with an increase.
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Killerhound
Caldari
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.04.01 06:10:00 -
[72]
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to say that I am a bit confused. It's great to see that something is being done about the Black Ops after nearly a year of waiting I can finaly plan to use my ship.
What confuses me is that you still need Input. I mean there must be hundreds of threads and responses etc. for you guys.
Me was curious. Why not simply give the Black Ops that covert cloaking ? What speaks against it? As now you use SB's with covert cloak... Beside the BO's tank is still paperfin and gives no reason to be used in offensive combat, so maybe don't give it the CO Cloak but the usual t2 Buff in Resistance. Make it more usefull while tanked.
Thanks for patience
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.04.01 06:40:00 -
[73]
i propose an increase in jump range to the black ops ship, and a reduction in jump fuel use as well for jump bridging with the following trade-off, increase the effect range has on its jump bridge 2 fold, so it can make short to medium jumps reasonably easily, but to jump more than a few ships to its max range is a lesson in mathmatics and logistics . . . what do you think?
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.01 06:53:00 -
[74]
Even tho I want to see Black Ops boost to make it more viable in pure pvp, I'd also strongly oppose giving in Cov Ops cloak.
Cov Ops cloaks don't belong on strong tank and gank ships. And as a battleship that can be fitted to tank and gank 600 dps, cov ops cloak would make it too good
better give it some more resists, some more grid
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Virgo I'Platonicus
Zoners
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Posted - 2009.04.01 08:29:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Virgo I''Platonicus on 01/04/2009 08:29:42
Chronotis,
maybe you would consider at least giving widow some more cargo space?
torps + 800 charges + 550m^3 cargo space is a combination that could be improved.
V.
<3 |
Waarph
ICE is Coming to EVE
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.01 08:39:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Waarph on 01/04/2009 08:41:45
Hello
Great News
I would like to stress a few ideas I saw above
- jump in cyno jamm system: necessary, the short range of the black ops means that you cannot pick up your route easely as almost all systems in 0.0 are cynojammed nowadays.
- Increased bay and later a fuel bay: great
- less fuel: jumping a gang here and there means that I always need a friend with a blockade runner. That in turns means that any operating black-ops gang (bombers/reconn/black ops, etc..) has one more guy just for the logistic (which is on top of the black ops cargo extended and the several covert cyno guy). And you need for mid size gangs even more blockade friends and black ops. So lesser use of fuel per level of black ops seems a good idea.
And as user of the black ops, I would also really stress the need to just a tiny bit of extra range. I needed to train jump drive qualibration 5 because suddenly, with the tiny 0.5 ly of extra range, the black ops become from a "lets jump two system away" to something usefull. So maybe not like a titan but a small bit (say base 2.25 or 2.5 instead or 2 ly as today).
Also, please bear in mind that there are two types of use for black ops. The "gang jump bridge" black ops that is cargo extended and therefore does not enter into combat as well as the combat black ops as used by burn eden (tm not mine  ). Please make sure that both use remains possible.
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.01 10:00:00 -
[77]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The functionality which allows us to add special cargobays to ships (such as a fuel bay, ore hold, fighter bay and so on). That functionality is not ready yet so a black ops fuel bay sits very high on our wishlist still.
Are you kidding me? this functionality has been in game before i joined it - 2.5years+.
Ship Maint Bays it's called. Just replicate that code.
--
Thanks CCP for cu |
Hell Commander
Amarr
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.01 10:41:00 -
[78]
I only vote for fuel bay and increese in jump range.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.04.01 10:46:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Even tho I want to see Black Ops boost to make it more viable in pure pvp, I'd also strongly oppose giving in Cov Ops cloak.
Cov Ops cloaks don't belong on strong tank and gank ships. And as a battleship that can be fitted to tank and gank 600 dps, cov ops cloak would make it too good
better give it some more resists, some more grid
How about tweaking the covops fitting so that it uses a lot more CPU than on a recon or covert ops frigate? Say ~300 CPU or so.
So fit a covops by all means - at the cost of significantly gimping the rest of the fit.
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Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2009.04.01 10:55:00 -
[80]
I`m happy some changes are coming and i seriously hope CCP make a real effort at fixing these ships.. I can fly all BOs and i`ve bought, fitted and tested 3 of them. My conclusion has been that there really is no use for BOs as they are. -small cargo bay (can`t combine cap boosters and isotopes) I see you might be doing something about this, but what about the other issues..  like misplaced bonuses.. BO has no use for a cloaking device.. 1. You can`t activate covert cynos while cloaked and the BO can`t jump while cloaked. Also it can`t warp while cloaked. If it`s can`t do any of these things- there`s no point in having a cloak on the ship.2. Cloaked velocity bonus in pointless on BO. BO is primary fighter on the battlefield. Except for the widow the BOs will be close quarter fighters that tackle and scramble hostile ships. It doesn`t shoot-and-scoot like stealth bombers do. Some will say it can use the bonus to insta-warp after gatejumping, but it has a jump drive so there should be no need to use gates at all.. Either the BO should combine covert ops cloak with a cloaked velocity bonus of 300% pr lvl or it should replace the speed bonus alltogether- the BO is not a stealth bomber..other gripes: -crap resists.. resists should at least be in the vincinity of tech II command ships. BOs are designed as close quarter fighters and will generally not be used at ranges beyond 40km. Resists and bonuses should reflect this (or come up with a brand new role with innovative bonuses) -slot layout.. slot layout generally degrades the BOs ability to perform the functions it`s tech i counterparts can perform. Again- give it proper role bonuses to optimize it`s role as a covert ship- end-of-the-line covert command ship (or come up with something new and innovative) -jump range is a laugh (no alliance will be surprised by a BO gang staging 3 jump away) BOs would be perfect against mission runners, but since you can`t jump into deadspace pockets and you can`t jump cloaked- they`re useless there as well.. BOs can be alot of things- right now they seem to be big close quarter combat ships with stealthbomber bonuses and longevity. Two roles have been combined that have nothing to do with each other.. You need to resolve the ship function and replace all the role bonuses and probably some of the stats. Addendum (not essential- mostly disappointed ranting) There is no point in flying 700mill ships (billion isk ships after fitting them) that are weaker then standard tech I BS and tech II command ships. I know some people use BOs in gangs to hot drop on unsuspecting ratters, but there is nothing a 5 man BO gang can do (at this time) that a regular 5 man gang cannot do. And one more point- there is no way a 5 man BO gang will ever engage a 5 man standard gang- because at that gang size there are few clear victories and loosing only 1 BO is a clear loss, while the standard gang will have a clear victory even if loosing 4 of it`s ships. There is just no advantage in fielding Black Ops. At every turn, i`ve found a mix or recons, commands ships and some other ingredients to be far superior to Black Ops.
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.04.01 11:24:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Rajere on 01/04/2009 11:29:22
Hi. Thank you very much for the update. As early adopters and probably the most prolific PVP blackops pilots in eve, our corp has been looking forward to reading CCPs ideas for BO improvements for a long time now. After flying them for nearly a year, developing strategies and tactics for their use, analyzing their weaknesses and discovering the roles in which they excel and the right conditions for their use, we've put together our own list. Here was our wishlist for BOs improvements.
Items CCP has touched upon are bold + italicized
+40% base scan resolution to counteract fitting a cloak.
+60 CPU (cost to fit a T2 cloak)
+50% native sensor strength (Opposite of Marauders)
T2 resists (racial flavor as appropriate on t2 ships)
Jump Range increased to 3ly base (6.75ly with JDC 5, 6ly with JDC 4)
500-2000m3 Fuel Bay added (whatever developers feel is balanced)
Covert Cynos changed to be usable in Cynojammed Systems
Sin:
Hull > Megathron. Developer > Duvolle. 7H:5M:7L, 5 Turrets
Gallente BS bonuses changed to: 5% Large Turret dmg/lvl, 7.5% Large Turret Tracking/lvl.
5% Agility per level of blackops bonus (highly useful pre-QR, worthless now) becomes a third Turret bonus, perhaps optimal, 2nd damage, or falloff.
Panther:
Hull > Tempest. Developer > Boundless Creation 7H:5M:7L, 5 turrets
5% speed per level of blackops bonus (highly useful pre-QR for an entirely different reason, worthless now) removed. The Panther is thukker (like the vagabond), this doesn't work for battleships. The Panther needs to become Boundless Creation and given a 3rd projectile bonus (such as falloff).
Widow: Change ECM bonus to 5% kinetic cruise/torp dmg bonus (Unfortunately this would cause a huge uproar among inexperienced blackop pilots, so is probably out of the question)
--------------------------
NOTR
B A N A N A S |
Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2009.04.01 11:52:00 -
[82]
To Rajere...
I see where you`re coming from and while i support those ideas i don`t support the reasoning behind them (from the link you posted)
Your ideas will move the BO towards the close quarter brawler role, which i support- that is how i would use them as well, if my other ships weren`t better at it. Those ideas however- also remove the necessity for a cloak altogether- imho.
I don`t agree that the covert ops cloak is something stupid that should never be mentioned again- as you state. I do however believe that whether to remove the cloak altogether or upgrade to covert ops cloak, that is a decision that should put the ship in line with it`s other bonuses and stats.
I know what bonuses i WOULD WANT the BO to have, but i`ll not push any agenda here. As i see it CCP could go multiple ways:
1. Close quarter brawler with no cloak
2. Close quarter brawler with covert ops cloak combined with speed bonus
3. Mid range gang support ship with no cloak, but gang relevant bonuses
4. Mid range skirmish warfare ship with stealth bomber role
5. Something coherent and innovative that i can`t imagine
or
stay as is
6. semi-close quarter ship with stealth bomber stats and longevity
I think CCP should have a thrurough session regarding what they want the ship to actually be.
I think your suggestions would be a band-aid on something that should be pulled apart and redone. |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.04.01 12:24:00 -
[83]
If ccp wants their ideas to work they need to revise a few things. Cyno jammers suffer from the same issue that station services suffer. The second ones were made to be targets for small gangs. But they have tooo much HP. Take HOURS literally with large gagns to take them down.
Cyno jammers cannot have too few HP or they become too easy to bring down using battleships and large fleets. But with the current HP count they are too hard for a small gang to dent.
So I suggest.. always suggested in fact. Make cyno jammers have 1/3 of current HP. But allow you to have up to 3 in same system.
Now to attack a system you can have more than failure and success.. you can have a partial result.... You can make a fast strike take 1 jammer, force enemy carrier to there to repair it then your fleet can enter trough gate more easily and try to get the other ones... just an example.
Would make wonders for the usage of small hit and run forces on 0.0 warfare, specially the black ops into cyno jammed systems idea.
At same time suggest station services HP dropped to 1/10 of current values....
Without that.. its a VERY DISTANT DREAM that black ops gangs will be used to do anything meaningful against POSs... |
Cailais
Amarr
Diablo Advocatus
Vanguard.
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Posted - 2009.04.01 12:50:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
If ccp wants their ideas to work they need to revise a few things. Cyno jammers suffer from the same issue that station services suffer. The second ones were made to be targets for small gangs. But they have tooo much HP. Take HOURS literally with large gangs to take them down.
Very true. And when you consider the dps a POS can put out station services arent a really viable target for small gangs.
Move some of this functionality away from the POS (and by away I mean across the system away) then maybe you have some valid small gang targets. But as it stands this idea of 'black ops teams' replete with recons and SBs jumping into a system to take out a jammer or other station service is a fantasy land.
C.
Originally by: Capa
So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2009.04.01 13:01:00 -
[85]
Edited by: TZeer on 01/04/2009 13:05:37
Quote:
My conclusion has been that there really is no use for BOs as they are.
Then that has to be your conclusion, cause there are plenty examples where they are put to great use.
Quote:
BO has no use for a cloaking device..
1. You can`t activate covert cynos while cloaked and the BO can`t jump while cloaked. Also it can`t warp while cloaked. If it`s can`t do any of these things- there`s no point in having a cloak on the ship.
The cloak is to prevent you from being run over by a blob. It has a great use. Prevents you from warping from SS to SS while there are 3-4 people probing for you.
You also have to take into consideration what game mechanics CCP might implement. They have stated they would like to nerf cloaks on normal ships.
Quote:
2. Cloaked velocity bonus in pointless on BO. BO is primary fighter on the battlefield. Except for the widow the BOs will be close quarter fighters that tackle and scramble hostile ships. It doesn`t shoot-and-scoot like stealth bombers do. Some will say it can use the bonus to insta-warp after gatejumping, but it has a jump drive so there should be no need to use gates at all.. Either the BO should combine covert ops cloak with a cloaked velocity bonus of 300% pr lvl or it should replace the speed bonus alltogether- the BO is not a stealth bomber..
Cloaked velocity is very nice bonus thank you very much. Not everyone is running around with a covert op alt you know.
Quote:
Addendum (not essential- mostly disappointed ranting)
There is no point in flying 700mill ships (billion isk ships after fitting them) that are weaker then standard tech I BS and tech II command ships. I know some people use BOs in gangs to hot drop on unsuspecting ratters, but there is nothing a 5 man BO gang can do (at this time) that a regular 5 man gang cannot do. And one more point- there is no way a 5 man BO gang will ever engage a 5 man standard gang- because at that gang size there are few clear victories and loosing only 1 BO is a clear loss, while the standard gang will have a clear victory even if loosing 4 of it`s ships. There is just no advantage in fielding Black Ops. At every turn, i`ve found a mix or recons, commands ships and some other ingredients to be far superior to Black Ops.
Good for you then that you have found your way. But it doesnt make it right.
We and as I have seen on Rajere and the gang`s killboard, we are both engaging outnumbered. That you dont have the balls to do it and all you think about is lost isk if you loose a ship, then thats your loss. But it doesnt make it less fun when the tactics actually works and people like you die to "horrible, no tank, no damage BO`s"
Quote:
Widow: Change ECM bonus to 5% kinetic cruise/torp dmg bonus (Unfortunately this would cause a huge uproar among inexperienced blackop pilots, so is probably out of the question)
Damn right it will
CCP Chronotis, can you please confirm as stated in the previous ECM thread that the Widow will get the same jamstrength as the other close range T2 ships, Rook and Falcon?
Thanks
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.04.01 13:21:00 -
[86]
Quote:
- Does the Covert Jump Portal generator only uses cap?
yep. Takes isotopes for jumping stuff though.
Quote:
- Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a cyno generator array(POS module) that only blackops ships can jump to?
Assuming you have access. You can indeed. You can set the access to like Starbase Caretaker-Corporation-Alliance. Someone in fleet with him is at the array. Activates it. You jump.
Thing is though. That array lasts for 10 seconds. You have a delay. You then have to activate your mod. Then u communicate to the others to jump through. all this happening in 10 seconds? Yessssh.
Quote:
- Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a normal cyno?
Yep. I've done this on all ends heh.
Quote:
Things I would like to see: - Covert ops cloak
Very very unlikely.
Quote:
- Decrease the fuel usage, that will solve the need for a fuel bay. 10% less per level.
Erm. Dont think they will go any lower.
Quote:
- Allow Covert jump portal generators to create a jump bridge to a cyno jammed system.
Indeed... that's what the thread is about?
Quote:
- Increase the range to that of a titan.
Well. You need jumpdrive cal 4. Which brings you to like 4ly? LESS even. Newb carriers are 6.5ly and people find that short.
I dunno.
Honestly black ops just needs to be unnerfed in the stats itself. sin 5000 armor? t1 domi has 6000 armor. sin 56km targeting, t1 domi 70km. 4 turrets vs 6 turrets.
I think the price itself and the steep training will keep it from becoming solopwn or something. Matching the t1 domi stats for the above wouldnt be a bad thing.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2009.04.01 13:23:00 -
[87]
to Tzeer..
Regarding your arguments i will say that i agree to all of them. I have no issue with what your saying- i know Burn Eden for competent PvP and it`s been interesting when engaging them. I am also not contesting either Burn Edens or anyone elses results with BO tactics. If i had an active corp atm, i would have the opportunity to use BO tactics myself, but would choose not to, as i believe other tactics serve the same level of efficiency at a far less cost.
But this is not where i want to take the discussion.
My argument goes to the composition of the BO- the interaction of hull, role bonuses and
and ship statistics and they coalesce into a Black Ops factor (as i interpret the term Black operations). As stated i believe the BO as it stands, is similar to a close quarter ship with stealth bomber stats and longevity. Do you disagree with this?
Taking this notion further i`ll state that it`s a poorly defined ship that while being put to good use by rich and creative people, suffers from an identity crisis. I`d love to use my BOs, but i`d require better role-bonus-function cohesion.
Do you really believe that a scan-res/fuel bay is all that`s missing for these ships to be completed?
PS: People like me don`t get killed by BOs
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2009.04.01 14:20:00 -
[88]
Edited by: TZeer on 01/04/2009 14:23:48
Originally by: Baudolino
Edited by: Baudolino on 01/04/2009 13:34:56
to Tzeer..
Regarding your arguments i will say that i agree to all of them. I have no issue with what your saying- i know Burn Eden for competent PvP and it`s been interesting when engaging them. I am also not contesting either Burn Edens or anyone elses results with BO tactics. If i had an active corp atm, i would have the opportunity to use BO tactics myself, but would choose not to, as i believe other tactics serve the same level of efficiency at a far less cost.
But this is not where i want to take the discussion.
My argument goes to the composition of the BO- the interaction of hull, role bonuses and
and ship statistics and they coalesce into a Black Ops factor (as i interpret the term Black operations). As stated i believe the BO as it stands, is similar to a close quarter ship with stealth bomber stats and longevity. Do you disagree with this?
Taking this notion further i`ll state that it`s a poorly defined ship that while being put to good use by rich and creative people, suffers from an identity crisis. I`d love to use my BOs, but i`d require better role-bonus-function cohesion.
Do you really believe that a scan-res/fuel bay is all that`s missing for these ships to be completed?
PS: People like me don`t get killed by BOs
Addendum:
to Rajere and Tzeer..
I`ve been reading the proposed changes of BOs, SBs and ECM-ships. To me it seems like major changes are coming to the function of covert-ops/Black-ops. For you guys this might not be much of an issue, but personally i`m tired of everything drifting towards mid- to large-sized gangs and fleets. I like the idea of the BO- i just hope the changes made provide for easier use for small gangs.
I would say that BO has a little better longevity then a stealth bomber. And Rajere mentioned something about close to 100k EHP on their BO, dunno their setup, but thats not excactly stealth bomber stats.
Close range, long range, depends how you wanna use it. No problem for both the widow and redeemer going in at range if you fit for it. Cant speak for the other two.
They where poorly defined ships, cause they were very limited by all the cynojammers.
I also want to stress that it`s good this ships is not a "T2 resisted, bigger damage, more defined role" ship. Makes the user use some brain and think about how he wants to use it. The black ops is very non restrictive when it comes to how you wanna use it.
Other ships are not, HIC, dictors, rapier, falcon. You know what they do, and what they dont do. Bo and jumpportal, jump bridge and you get a very dynamical battleground.
Quote:
Do you really believe that a scan-res/fuel bay is all that`s missing for these ships to be completed?
No, the biggest boost now was the ability to fire up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems.
It`s crazy how many systems are cynojammed for no apparent reason.
Quote:
Addendum:
to Rajere and Tzeer..
I`ve been reading the proposed changes of BOs, SBs and ECM-ships. To me it seems like major changes are coming to the function of covert-ops/Black-ops. For you guys this might not be much of an issue, but personally i`m tired of everything drifting towards mid- to large-sized gangs and fleets. I like the idea of the BO- i just hope the changes made provide for easier use for small gangs.
You need maximum 3 peeps in gang to utilize all it`s uses. Cant get much smaller then this...
I was in a gang where we had 4 ships in gang. Had no problems engaging stuff and getting fights/kills.
And bringing black ops to a fleet fight i would say is a bad move.
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Baudolino
Gallente
Royal Crimson Lancers
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Posted - 2009.04.01 14:28:00 -
[89]
To Tzeer..
Then i rest my case for the moment.
I`d still like a re-work of some aspects of it, but i`ll get back to it when i`ve had time to play around with the jump-portal. So far i`ve only used the BOs jump-drive and not the portal. My corp is too small..:)
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2009.04.01 14:34:00 -
[90]
Widow is a gimp Raven with same ECM capability. It's a BO so you should be able to bridge same Recons after all.
There are a lot of complain about Falcons into close range fight (150M isk?), No complain about a Billion ship that have to fight short range with ECM? I strongly believe that no one is going to fit Widow with ECM, just bring a dedicated recon support, and tank as much u can.
Widow proposed changed:
Correct the hull description -> Raven (it's more a Raven than a Scorpion look at the bonus per Caldari BS level!)
Correct the number of launcher -> 6
Remove 2 mid slot and add 1 high and 1 low slot.
Remove the ecm bonus.
Add 5% lol agility bonus per level.
After that, pls boost all BOs to let them to be useful somehow.
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