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Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.16 15:50:00 - [391] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 11:05:17 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Would it not be good enough to just have covert cynoes generateable while cloaked? silences "solopwn" sentiment but allows for undetected approach of target/destination. Covert cynos are not the panacea. Rarely used module in gangs. Most tacklers do not have it. So most of the time you have to warp to target, not jump to it... Also cannot be used it same system, and it consume fuel, which is limited. But thats the point, it means if you want to use your black ops for pvp you have to make sure your gang supports its role. Black Ops, especially with their amount of tank, aren't meant for the outright toe to toe combat, their job is to quickly snuff small camps, surprise ratters and what not. You wouldn't want to use a black ops in your big RR gang because then you're ignoring the entire benefit of a black ops, undetected approach. Gangs/scenarios where a black ops WOULD fit in is with a gang made up of CoC only ships (ie: force recons). It would work best as you have 1 arazu essentially imitating a solo player flying around, if he finds something suitable he could warp cloaked to a target and cyno cloaked so that when the black ops jumps it'll be near the target which is basically the same as what having a CoC would do EXCEPT it needs assistance to do it thus it won't be a "solopwnmobile." Not to mention if they want an ideal amount of DPS you'll probably want at least 3 black ops to jump to that cyno. They would make for great hit and run type assassins. For that purpose, like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag. As for fuel, like that above poster just mathed out it wouldn't be difficult for a black ops to get itself to the target via cyno and out via cyno. Tbh the bridge isn't really worth it since the things it can jump can all warp cloaked anyways so they can get wherever they want on their own. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.16 19:00:00 - [392] Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 19:03:50 Originally by: Mr Ignitious like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag. Currently they do not belong to cloaky gang either. Want a bet? 90% of your cloaked gang will NOT have a covert cyno fitted. And of these 10% who will, only 20% will remember (and dare) to use it if sutuation arise. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.16 23:39:00 - [393] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 19:03:50 Originally by: Mr Ignitious like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag. Currently they do not belong to cloaky gang either. Want a bet? 90% of your cloaked gang will NOT have a covert cyno fitted. And of these 10% who will, only 20% will remember (and dare) to use it if sutuation arise. Thats because right now Black Ops have no use what so ever and need to decloak to use their cyno gen. If it gets changed though the black ops pilot can say "yo, i need someone to fit a cov ops cyno gen." Then its done. You're saying RIGHT NOW (which is where the problem is persisting) dictates that the problem will remain after my proposed change gets put in place. Besides that, your argument there is nearly equivalent to saying "Noone just randomly fits normal cyno gens for a random carrier pilot to tag along on the roam." The gang HAS to be DESIGNED around the black ops first and made clear its a black ops gang. If your gang doesn't want to bring a covert cyno gen then you have no right or reason to use a black ops at all. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 00:15:00 - [394] Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 00:18:24 Originally by: Mr Ignitious If your gang doesn't want to bring a covert cyno gen then you have no right or reason to use a black ops at all. It's a waste to base all Black Ops usefullness around cynogen on other ship. Cloaked cyno can be useful, but i think it is not be really different from current covert cyno, except for better survivability of a ship who light it. Current covert cyno usage is quite tactically limited. Please explain, how exactly and against who you want to use your 'cloaked cyno'? I'm trying to see how it helps to attack someone? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 02:03:00 - [395] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 00:18:24 Originally by: Mr Ignitious If your gang doesn't want to bring a covert cyno gen then you have no right or reason to use a black ops at all. It's a waste to base all Black Ops usefullness around cynogen on other ship. Cloaked cyno can be useful, but i think it is not be really different from current covert cyno, except for better survivability of a ship who light it. Current covert cyno usage is quite tactically limited. Please explain, how exactly and against who you want to use your 'cloaked cyno'? I'm trying to see how it helps to attack someone? I was trying to say it before, but I'll try and be clear this time. Right now, if cynoer needs to uncloak to cyno then the target is preemptively alerted of the black ops jumping in giving them time to warp out or whatever. Since there is a lock delay for the cynoer it becomes tricky how you want to get your tackles then before everything tries to gtfo. If the cyno could be made while cloaked then the black ops could enter and engage with out any prior warning. Also, they won't have that lock delay issue either to help with tackling. (In this case cloaks aren't even that crucial). How I would use them then is have my cloaky cynoer get out ahead and find a target. Once they find a target/gate camp that can be stamped out with a quick application of DPS, I'd have 5 (+/- 2, depending on what I can get) black ops jump in and wipe out whatever was there. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 09:02:00 - [396] Originally by: Mr Ignitious I was trying to say it before, but I'll try and be clear this time. Right now, if cynoer needs to uncloak to cyno then the target is preemptively alerted of the black ops jumping in giving them time to warp out or whatever. Since there is a lock delay for the cynoer it becomes tricky how you want to get your tackles then before everything tries to gtfo. If the cyno could be made while cloaked then the black ops could enter and engage with out any prior warning. Also, they won't have that lock delay issue either to help with tackling. (In this case cloaks aren't even that crucial). How I would use them then is have my cloaky cynoer get out ahead and find a target. Once they find a target/gate camp that can be stamped out with a quick application of DPS, I'd have 5 (+/- 2, depending on what I can get) black ops jump in and wipe out whatever was there. Hm, do you plan to use this approach against farmers in belts? These will warp out and cloak as soon as your cyno ship enter local. You don't really have time for that cyno stuff, you just need to be fast. And if you want to wait a lot and set a trap, i think it is just better to use cloaked interdictor. Same with the gates... target jump in... and warp out, unless you used a interdictor bubble + tacklers. Static targets these you can take your time to approach for putting up a cyno are kinda rare. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 17:13:00 - [397] While some people are cautious enough to dock up/safe whenever a neut/red enters I find, in my experience, that if 1 cloaky ship enters local none too many go into a full panic and dock up, otherwise they would never make much isk. What does tend to warrant the docking up though is when 1 red/neut enters local but 1-2 jumps away are their scouted gang bang brigade. My hope would be that black ops can sit at a more comfortable and less known place so that the one ship doesn't get the "dock up" reaction. However, I think that is where we disagree. I would like to know then what you would like to see black ops used for so I can understand a little better why you think cloaked cynoes aren't worth the effort to change. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 20:21:00 - [398] I'd myself like to see BO as a medium-long range heavy damager part of cloaked gangs. Not exactly sniper ships, but with range of 50-100km range, preferrably turrets with high tracking and damage. But close to no tank. With COC and fast locking. Tactic (for example): While recons and frig work closer BO decloak at med-long range, lock target, put there 1000+ DPS and then recloak or run if under direct threat. Portals and cynos are only secondary, just in case if situation arise. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 21:45:00 - [399] Ok, thats a little better for me to understand. I definitely share your sentiment on WTFDPS but no tank really, I like the guns as tank idea. About the range I was mostly impartial but ok if I can get range and tracking then I'm good with that. I still don't think a cov ops cloak is needed though, you could just ask 1 of your cloaky pilots to fit the generator for it, could even make it funny if you had a conventional fleet in a tough fight then suddenly 5 black ops appear 70km off and laying down the pain. More scan res goes with out saying. Since it is inevitable these ships will be pricey they do need to retain a certain amount of survivability. I think good cloaked speed could help with that. Bridges I agree are mostly pointless especially due to fuel problems. I think that with just the Improved Cloaks and a cov cyno they could accomplish the tactic you outlined in your post. Over all I think we agree and the gank role to fill in gangs (I just prefer to see them accompany sneaky gangs, but in yours it adds another opportunity of use in conventional fleets) Now all we need is for CCP to come back and tell us what they think. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:04:00 - [400] Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 22:06:33 Well, battleships cannot be fast enough with any reasonable speed bonus, they are more or less static anyway. So i think cloaked speed bonus not needed. For me Black ops mobility relies on rewarps. Thats why covert cloak is needed... to rewarp cloaked. It is too risky to rewarp back to battle wihtout cloak, you do not know where you exit warp. Maybe near lucky tackler, or on the edge of the bubble. This means you cant rewarp in battle, and combat value of Black Ops drops severely. Other reason: is to have more free 'bonus slots' to use for offensive bonuses, instead of ones unnerfing harmful effects of simple cloak. With simple cloak you will need ALOT of bonuses to negate it shortcomings. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:30:00 - [401] the way I see it though, in their usage as gank ships, is that the rewarp thing shouldn't be an issue/it should be a limitation. They jump in and have their chance at ganking their targets. If they get in trouble they can take their chances killing it or just gtfo and wait for an out cyno. I only say this in honor balance reasons. I can't deny it would be awesome if they got CoC's but I don't want them to be too good either. I'd also say that I don't anticipate using gates often at all with the black ops ships. Because of this bubbles are less of an issue. Going back to my plan, if they have a dedicated cynoer and the Bops need to warp out they could have their cynoer give them a new warp in. It requires coordination and communication but I think it will still be plenty effective; effective enough to make them worth it. The point of needing to dedicate more slots to compensate for simple cloaks is true enough, but maybe just a bonus to a reduction of the penalty to scan res. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:39:00 - [402] Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 22:45:13 Well, it can be so for a pirate oriented warfare where your victim is rarely put up a good fight. But with 0.0 gang fight it is not. And about 'too good', imho slow and vulnerable 800+ mil ship which is quite easy to kill with simple cruiser (if you catch it) cannot be overpowered by mere cloak. If BO cannot fit COC i rather get dedicated T1 Battleship to gank with. Both cheaper and more effective. Mark my words: if Black Ops will be 'try or die' style of ship, they will not be used on TQ. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:25:00 - [403] I fly about equal between 0.0 and low sec (I much prefer low sec though... aside from gate guns) I'm thinking about roaming gangs, and that is a good point. I think though that once your scout (which will have a cov ops cyno since if you plan to use a bops you should make your gang aware you're coming) finds a target/group to engage you could have your black ops get to within jump range via conventional gates. I think the jump range increase would definitely help because 5jumps away really isn't that far. (I see your quote just made me reconsider how I'm thinking about them) I should change my "tactic" to not using gates to enter the fight. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it's going to be very difficult to make black ops useful for any sort of roam gank boat. Black ops (with their current bonuses and weapon setups) aren't suited for fights really at all. Alternatively the ranged DPS is still an amiable ideal, coming back to a large rework of the ships. If it were implemented properly (making the ships clearly reflect they should be used as a mid range roaming gang DPS support) I think a CoC wouldn't be outrageous. Thinking like you get your fleet into a fight but keep your bops a few systems back to help disguise your numbers. Once you get your engagement jump in the bops at desired range and then let them do their thing. It should be made however that if they get CoC's they can't (easily) make fits that allow them to fly around solo killing people because that's what I think is a big fear. That or CCP intends black ops as like homeland security that have short jump range so they are limited to being quick to get to where invaders are i hope not. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Jedziah Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.04.18 13:11:00 - [404] OK So first of all. Well done so far on the changes. The BlackOps has been really given it's niche now and allows alliances such as ours to move past ridiculous blob gate camps and get a pvp fix. The fuel bay is certainly needed. Even with the expanded space, we are getting through 'topes quicker than Mr. T drinks his milk. I personally think that there is one thing the BlackOps needs that would make it the perfect ship for the role it is being pushed into. That is a fitting array. Allowing the ships it can jump bridge to refit at it would be an absolute godsend for the small gang pvp community. I'm unsure to how that fits in with maintence/corp hangar in the database for the capital vessels and Orca but I am sure that could kill two birds with one stone as it could be used for fuel storage until the fuel bay is correctly implemented. Real good job so far though. You have made them a great ship to fly. In summary: - Covert Cyno avoidance is fantastic - Fuel Bay desperately needed - Ship Fitting Ability? - Maint/Corp Hangar could provide ship fitting with a temporary cure to the fuel bay? Just my two pence -Jed
Strure Deadly Ringers	Posted - 2009.04.18 15:56:00 - [405] Edited by: Strure on 18/04/2009 16:03:08 Taken in conjunction with SB switching to torps, it seems BO's have become bomber tenders with recons remaining EW and tackling for the fleet. The purpose appears to be striking at an enemy's back yard, to disrupt what were safe industrial operations, just screwing with system ratters, or hitting fleets being assembled. If this is the purpose what changes do and don't make sense? 1) Cov Cloak? Well, this scenario calls for point blank hot drops initiated by a single recon (Arazu, usuallY). Here cloak only lets you safe spot after the battle and preparing to safely disembark system....SO not really useful 2) Local invisibility? The cyno recon ship would benefit, but the fleet is striking fast and hard for maximum confusion. Local is hardly how the targets will know they're under attack. Except, when the single pilot in local makes them think seriously about a BO drop. But here local serves as a way to passively disrupt enemies, especially if a known cov cyno pilot parks in system...lots of nasty games you could play w/o local invis. 3) More DPS? Well, the bombers have that generally covered against large targets. So DPS against cruiser class ships would be a real benefit. Tracking and weapon radius bonuses could handy over raw damage vs. other BS classed ships. 4) Fleet modules? Oh yea 5) Jump range? No brainer, this is an offensive weapon. This short looks like a defensive role. I think all BO pilots wonder about the logic for such a prenerfed range 6) Speed? Maybe not so important as a Bomber defender. 7)Simultaneous bridging? Awesome idea. Can be nearly done with practiced pilots, but some code would just make better fleet coordination. How do the other pilot's see the BO's primary role now?
DOARota Gallente BURN EDEN Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.19 05:36:00 - [406] After using them post-patch,they are perfect. A fuel bay would be icing on the cake in the future, but other than that you guys at ccp can call this one a success.
Mafaka Amarr The 5th Freedom Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.19 19:16:00 - [407] Edited by: Mafaka on 19/04/2009 19:22:02 Edited by: Mafaka on 19/04/2009 19:16:32 lol lol lol they have done done nothing - all was insignificant, pointless its like giving the person with only one hand an extra , the 6th finger on it - he still gona have one hand - what the point ? no one is going to be encouraged to get black op because of this change, everyone wana be in stealth bombers which like 20 days of training and far more fun and usefull right now average player
Bobbeh Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.20 06:52:00 - [408] My Fellow alliance mate speaks the truth. Tho in my Redeemer i love the lack of a decloak delay on locking. The target still knows im there because i have to warp to grid unless im camping the grid. Even as a bomber defender, ecm is more effective BOps are still BS's and therefore cant and should be anti cruiser/frigate ships. That role is perfectly filled by arazu's and rapiers, and pilgrims. The changes so far are awesome yes and steps in the right direction. But Unless the BOps is meant to be a Second line ship to Stealth bombers and recons it still needs more loving, Right now it is a Black ops Tactical Relocation and logistics BS. If this is there role so be it, but then they shouldnt really have damage bonus's cause they really are used to move other ships into and out of place.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.20 14:48:00 - [409] Originally by: Bobbeh If this is there role so be it, but then they shouldnt really have damage bonus's cause they really are used to move other ships into and out of place. Damn that sounds boring. I hope not and we can just get some pewpew boost (RE: rgreat & ignitious discussion above) I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Hatch Minmatar Ixion Defence Systems Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.04.23 05:31:00 - [410] so, when are they going to go actually make the panther usefull. right now, it's a doorstop

Missuri	Posted - 2009.04.23 11:18:00 - [411] They made changes but not enough, sadly no reactions so far from CCP about the useness of the Black ops!
easei Corp 1 Allstars PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.04.23 17:39:00 - [412] I don't see any clear bonus with this class of ships. The redeemer has an assault ship role the widow has a recon ship role and the panther and sin roles are useless considering they are a battleship class. Also 125% velocity while cloaked doesn't do much for a support or a damage standpoint. IMO change the bonuses to buff the role not the ship Try this: 10% reduction of covert jump portal fuel consumption and 10% bonus jump drive range per black ops skill level. (increases range of the portals) 6.75ly with all level 5's If you want the ships to be encouraged to be on grid in combat rather than cloaked in a safe give them a limited logistical bonus to remote reps (50% range per level of racial BS ~ 21KM reps) so they can defend the bombers and recons they jump. That should replace the damage bonus on each. Any bonuses you add that increases the amount of damage or offensive capabilities will result in a ship that's used solo. By boosting gang defensive and the jump portal roles you make it a very effective tool for the guerrilla warfare game, while using it solo isn't that effective due to the HP of a tier 1 BS and damage of a cruiser.
Mafaka Amarr The 5th Freedom Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.23 21:11:00 - [413] Edited by: Mafaka on 23/04/2009 21:13:24 black ops are still handicapped ships, and ccp thinks that they fixed them or something? why they did they start on ECM drons when black ops are still unfixed? what about jump range and resistances on it average player
Tover Chris	Posted - 2009.04.24 15:04:00 - [414] Edited by: Tover Chris on 24/04/2009 15:17:46 Any ship that requires skills like JDO V and Cyno V, and on top of that cost 800mil should be a bit more...useful. increase jump range. 2ly is a joke giev covops cloak giev agiliy bonusi giev more resistances make them be what they should be...cyno jammer liberators.
Vasili Z Pyre of Gods	Posted - 2009.04.25 08:01:00 - [415] They shouldn't be able to warp cloaked, but sin and panther definitely need a boost.... Plus jump-range. ------- P0GS is recruiting; no fatties
Mrsticks Minmatar RNCGM Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.25 21:22:00 - [416] Nice Now you just need to let Blockade runners use the Bridge and Im all set to go play Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.
Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2009.04.26 20:17:00 - [417] Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 26/04/2009 20:22:13 Ok I'll ask the questions.. Why not give all jump capable ships fuel tanks? Why not allow all jump capable ships independant jump capability that doesn't require cyno fields, I don't believe it's actually required especially now jump inhibitors and system interdiction have been in game for some time, instead allowing them to jump to a random position in the target system perhaps or someone already there independantly. This is one of the things that really gets to me as a capital pilot not being able to move independantly, early days yes it was required however these days it's not, in fact it's rather tedious. Same goes for black ops, there's little point of having a ship that can Jump with the intent of insertion if it can't get it'self there in the first place. In fact here's a wacky idea how's about making all ships move this way, eliminate the focal points such as gates expand the universe's colonising space vastly to suit the population and eliminate blob warfare by making people split up into smaller groups to fight throughout a system instead of warping 400 peeps from one focal point to another and the ole point click boom lag syndrome? With good design and planning it can be done. Alot more needs to be done about the core design elements of eve, that haven't changed one bit since beta, they worked then with low population but simply fail completely now with so many and such a small universe, it's time for something fresh and new rather than just slinging content at us constantly. Improve the core design of the game and gameplay.
Evlyna	Posted - 2009.04.28 15:54:00 - [418] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: TZeer Changes so far: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in scan resolution - Small increase in cargobay - Small reduction in fuel usage. From 400 units to 300 units per LY as base. yes, this is a good summary of the changes which will be in Apocrypha 1.1. As mentioned previously, we are not done yet with the black ops and the discussion here has been very useful. More changes will come in the future. After all this time and 13 pages of discussion not mentionning the amount of threads started since the first appearance of the BOPS.......... Can't say I'm jumping in joy I admit. ok... Yay for the cyno-jammed thing. But you barely scratched the surface of the problem.
Solar Ra	Posted - 2009.04.29 23:30:00 - [419] Should the lack of sticky of this post be taken as a sign of it considered resolved? If a fuel bay is not possible then maybe a very small maintenance bay 500-1000m3 for rearming and refitting in the field, can double as a fuel bay if the player choose so , this will make it a much better support ship and allow it to help the fleet as no other means of refitting behind (in with current jump range) enemy lines.
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.30 09:44:00 - [420] This thread is dropped out of being sticky . This will be the last buff blackops will ever get. Look up for a new blackops ship soon to be introduced , probably t3 chasis after t3 battlecruisers are introduced. There is always room for making people train more skills . I have invested 1 year into this ship from being pure amarr to training caldari up to chimera skills along with widow(blackops) . What is got is 3 nerfs and another one soon to come . Missile nerf + shield tank nerf(painters) + ecm nerf , and ecm drones / ecm mechanics itself is on the nerf table atm. Like the ship was overpowered or something , and it only got a locking speed increase which was very good . But the summary of buffs and nerfs now is that nobody smart would fly these ships in actual combat if they are not ridiciluously rich . I bought this ship , fitted it and can fly it , but it wont ever leave the station except in empire space killing belt frigates. I guess this was intended. From what i understand , investing billions into t1 ships and skills give you 500 times more efficiency than you would have with trying to make blackops useful . You can die countless of times and still not care, while the effect will still be sound. Looking at the big picture , now that stealth bombers are boosted and t3 cloakers are introduced, which are the latest advertisement of eve . Blackops are to only serve them as portal officers and nothing else. Just as falcons were alts, blackops are soon going to be portal alts , which will also require covert cyno alts .



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