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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:13:00 - [1] We promised an update to these and some love. If you have been following the forums, you should know or do now know that we are very open in our desire to revisit black ops. In particular we wanted to add a fuel bay at least and allow them to jump to cynojammed systems as the major additions. The functionality which allows us to add special cargobays to ships (such as a fuel bay, ore hold, fighter bay and so on). That functionality is not ready yet so a black ops fuel bay sits very high on our wishlist still. For now, we have been able to allow covert cynosural fields to be activated in cynojammed systems so a covert ops fleet could bridge/jump into a cynojammed system and perhaps one of the side benefits of certain changes to other certain ships will be that quite a deadly combination for taking out the jammers is possible for the innovative strategists amongst you. Perhaps the truest form of black ops and behind enemy lines operations is now possible to a greater degree :) We would very much like testing of this new functionality and feedback on it on sisi. We are very much not done yet with Black Ops but one step closer to perfection and we hope most of you agree.

The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:29:00 - [2] awesome! more sneaky sneaky :) first.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:29:00 - [3] Yes! Finally.
Relyen Caldari Heavy Influence	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:30:00 - [4] Awesome, might have to train for one now. ________________________________ I am own.
Fenix Zealot Caldari Aeon Of Strife Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:39:00 - [5] Is there a plan to allow them to use the covert ops cloaking device. It has been argued that due to the price of the ships, and their limited role offensively, as well as their vulnerability defensively, they should be allowed that feature. Personally I think they should have their bonuses tweaked a bit to give them a more specific role (except for the widow perhaps). For my own part, however, I believe that all things considered, the covert ops cloak should be allowed on the black ops if for no other reason, than to promote its actual use on the battlefield. I believe more people would use them if they could use the covert ops cloaking device. ~Fenix En Taro Adun!
Cerui Tarshiel Minmatar Asset Reallocation Specialists Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:51:00 - [6] Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 31/03/2009 17:52:25 Rofl, I just remarked on this in the stealth bomber thread that it was hopefully coming soon. This is really good first step, you've definantly got a beer or two coming at next fanfest. Now the question is how soon will the other boosts be implemented and turn that into a 6pack
DNSBLACK Gallente Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:07:00 - [7] Edited by: DNSBLACK on 31/03/2009 18:17:03 Reserved 1. Please take a look at lowering the fuel cost of the Force Recons as the go thru the bridge. If this cant be done look at the bridge using Liquid Ozone or heavy water to send ships thru not the faction iso that the ship uses to jump with. That would also lessen the need for a fuel bay. 2. A few more light years on the range. 3. Never really understood the agility bonus for Black Op levels on the sin. Agility is kind of usless with the recent changes brought on by QR. A combat bonus like scan res increase or lowering the re-cloaking time after decloaking with a covert op cloak (<---- just sneaking this in). There are a few more changes that i have written down at home will put them here when I get home from work. DNSBlack
Samiloth Justinian Evolution KenZoku	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:09:00 - [8] Originally by: CCP Chronotis For now, we have been able to allow covert cynosural fields to be activated in cynojammed systems so a covert ops fleet could bridge/jump into a cynojammed system and perhaps one of the side benefits of certain changes to other certain ships will be that quite a deadly combination for taking out the jammers is possible for the innovative strategists amongst you. I will hope this means more types of ships can be bridged by a Black Op (by somehow classing them as cov op ships), or is it the brawler falcon and short range torpedo bomber that will become the ships to use against POSes?
Vall Kor Minmatar ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Samiloth Justinian Originally by: CCP Chronotis For now, we have been able to allow covert cynosural fields to be activated in cynojammed systems so a covert ops fleet could bridge/jump into a cynojammed system and perhaps one of the side benefits of certain changes to other certain ships will be that quite a deadly combination for taking out the jammers is possible for the innovative strategists amongst you. I will hope this means more types of ships can be bridged by a Black Op (by somehow classing them as cov op ships), or is it the brawler falcon and short range torpedo bomber that will become the ships to use against POSes? kinda wondering how an SB is going to tank some pos guns.
Mr Frog Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:17:00 - [10] How about giving SB bombs a bonus against POS structures, it would actually give them a purpose.

Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:18:00 - [11] You are ruining my master plan dammit!!!! Having trained for Black Ops under the assumption that they would forever remain useless hangar ornaments, allowing me to whine about them in public! I demand you scrap these wild and fanciful ideas immediately. PS: Sounds awesome Chron, will you be holding back the changes until you get your special-cargo bay thingie to work or are you going ahead with them using a temporarily enlarged cargo capacity on them? PPS: What is the signature radius on cyno-jammers?
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:19:00 - [12] removing the scan res penalty of cloak or simply increasing scan res to offset the cloak penalty would be another good boost. After all, these ships are meant to fly with cloaks, and no targeting delay after decloak - that doesn't work well with gimped scan res
Tarkina Koslix Deep Space Supplies Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:21:00 - [13] Hi, if you really wanne improve a black ops, pls give the widow a little bit of love. It's tank is weaker than the scorpions one due to less shield cap, and t2 resistences are missing at all bo bses. > > "will be that quite a deadly combination for taking out the jammers is possible for the innovative strategists amongst you" > If you wanne kill a cyno jammer by bringing stealth bombers with torpedos and BS class ships, these ships have to be able to attack it without dieing instantly. Most jammers are positioned at death star towers. It would be very surprising if you can bring a 100 rr black op bs fleet to your target system. And shield tanks are not welcome there i'm afraid ;) someone in the cov ops thread said, that 0.0 systems have real good information channels. It you take this into account, a 4 LJ jump means 3 systems at best, there will be no surprise ;) And, if you get 100 ships for an attack together, you don't need to use black ops, you will just go there with normal ones: better dps, better tank, insureable and way easier to fly. With more range on the other side it would be a surprise. Tarkina
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:23:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Chronotis For now, we have been able to allow covert cynosural fields to be activated in cynojammed systems so a covert ops fleet could bridge/jump into a cynojammed system and perhaps one of the side benefits of certain changes to other certain ships will be that quite a deadly combination for taking out the jammers is possible for the innovative strategists amongst you. Stealthbombers with Siegemods c/d ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
Eigof Tahr Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:28:00 - [15] We will take what we can get! Thanks for the long overdue progress on the pre-nerfed Black Ops BS. Pos Guns (un-manned) take too long to target a frigate before it can fire off a few volleys and warp out. Stop thinking of conventional tactics, covert ops isn't conventional. ------- A rose, by any other name, would be "deadly thorn-bearing assault vegetation."
Dierdra Vaal Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:43:00 - [16] Sounds good, but don't stop there :) Fuel bay, increase in jump range and perhaps the ability to fit a covops cloak would be greatly appreciated. Vote Dierdra for CSM! Director of Training :: EVE University
Samiloth Justinian Evolution KenZoku	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Eigof Tahr We will take what we can get! Thanks for the long overdue progress on the pre-nerfed Black Ops BS. That is true. Originally by: Eigof Tahr Pos Guns (un-manned) take too long to target a frigate before it can fire off a few volleys and warp out. Stop thinking of conventional tactics, covert ops isn't conventional. The thing is that there usually is an enemy fleet guarding the system. If there is no enemy fleet around, then you can simply move your main BS fleet through the front door to knock out that jammer (and at the same time also have an effective fleet to use in the system when the caps arrive). Why would anyone want to cyno in the small stuff when you simply can move in the good stuff? So we can work with the assumption that it isn’t an empty (or near empty) system, or else the conventional fleet would be sent. Brawler falcons, torpedo bombers and such will not do good against POS gunners and a hostile fleet (or rather, the light support of a hostile fleet). Now, I like this change, it is a step in the right direction, but to somehow try to make the Black Op cyno squad into an anti-POS squad just makes no sense. That is not what they should be doing IMO, if CCP plans for them to have that role, then they probably need to make some big changes.
SexxxSlave	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Sounds good, but don't stop there :) Fuel bay, increase in jump range and perhaps the ability to fit a covops cloak would be greatly appreciated. So eve uni can use their Black Ops fleet? lol
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:07:00 - [19] Samiloth Justinian is completely right about the state of POS warfare In addition to strong enemy presence, you can pretty much count on having at least 1 titan guarding the cyno jammer any Black Ops and recon gang that dares to approach would be instantly slaughtered. So one thing for sure, Black Ops role shouldn't be about taking out the cyno jammer, but find some way to bypass it completely. How about this: BlackOps can enter cyno jammed system, then anchor a special device (that only works outside POS shields) that acts like a beacon to which anybody can warp, and when it's done onlining in 2-4 mins, it creates a regular cyno, bypassing cynojammer, that every friendly cap ship jump to and get bridged to. This would be fair to the enemy as they would have 2-4 minutes to warp to that device and destroy it
Alastairon	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Eigof Tahr Pos Guns (un-manned) take too long to target a frigate before it can fire off a few volleys and warp out. Stop thinking of conventional tactics, covert ops isn't conventional. Kay. Since I've done the math on using bombers for this exact purpose, I figure I'm as good as anyone to talk on this subject. So siddown and listen. For 25 bombers with an alpha of 2500 it takes 60 min to take down a cyno jammer, give or take 5 minutes. It will take a medium battery ~15sec to target a bomber. This is half the recloak time for the proposed 30-sec recloak time for bombers. A large battery will be a crapshoot at ~30sec. I don't like those odds at all. So, logistically, this isn't doable. Warpin/out times being added into the mix means that you're taking at least DOUBLE the amount of time it would normally take with the current Imp Cloak IIs. This is untenable. Chronotis, not to be your ever-present detractor, the concept of a fuel bay to the black ops ships is a fantastic idea. Seriously, fantastic. I wholeheartedly support this. But I cannot help but wonder what ships you're planning on it warping behind enemy lines to take out a jammer. The "brawling falcon"? Maybe the combat recon "long range rook"? Because it's certainly not the new "torp 30-sec cloak bomber". The PERFECT ship to complement the proposed Black Ops change is the purpose-built for this idea as-currently-on-tranquility Stealth Bomber. There's a great idea in here, Chronotis, and you've got part of it. But there's a discontinuity between this change to the Black Ops and the proposed changes to Recons and Bombers. I honestly, truly hope that you can bring them all into a cohesive, positive vision of covert ops ships that makes them valuable additions to the game. All the best, Al


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:11:00 - [21] Originally by: Samiloth Justinian Now, I like this change, it is a step in the right direction, but to somehow try to make the Black Op cyno squad into an anti-POS squad just makes no sense. That is not what they should be doing IMO, if CCP plans for them to have that role, then they probably need to make some big changes. Although I hinted at that, it was more at the possibilities and opportunities this allows rather than inferring the direct ability to take out cyno jammers solely with black ops. We merely think this will allow for some interesting strategies and less issues with the wall of cyno jammers around null sec in some cases.

Captain Vampire	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:18:00 - [22] Cloak for these ships, covops or not, is next to useless with the instant local in 0.0. I assume the design role of black ops ships are to enter hostile space undetected and bring firepower/ewar capabilities to a greater extent than their cruiser counterparts. The concept is awesome and very interesting, but it is pretty much impossible to achieve this per se due to local. Improving the ships with a fuel bay and the ability to jump to cynojammed systems will improve the "fun/buck" ratio, but the black ops ships (and their cruiser counterparts in lesser extent) will not really fill their designated role until delayed local is introduced in 0.0.
Vina Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:19:00 - [23] Edited by: Vina on 31/03/2009 19:20:46 disrupting enemy logistics should be the role of a black ops squad. Since logistics in eve now consists of either jumping a JF with loads of stuff to a station, or jumping normal freighters through cyno jammed systems with jump bridges on, this requires the ability to disrupt enemy logistics AT A POS DIRECTLY. There are two ways I see of accomplishing this: 1. Give black ops a new module that does AoE pos targeting disruption field of like 20km around the ship so that the black ops and fleet can warp in and stay near eachother. This field would not allow any pos structures to lock any covert/black ops ships within the field. however as a trade off they would have near instant lock from any other ships, or something like that (or maybe not be able to warp out.) 2. Increase the ability of hacking modules to be able to "hack" cyno jammers and jump bridge modules to pull them offline after a set amount of time or a mini-game or something. Without doing something liek this, jumping into a cyno jammed system will only be good for one thing: easy gank of NPCing players, which is pretty much pointless. If you allow black ops to do what I have suggested, they will really have a new and very important role. Also, add a new ship class, tech 2 tier 2 BC for structure bombing :> -----------------------------------
Lysah Tribute	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:21:00 - [24] Edited by: Lysah Tribute on 31/03/2009 19:21:31 wrong forum.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:22:00 - [25] Originally by: TZeer some inputs: - Better scan resolution, or take away the scan resolution penalty you get for fitting a cloak. the scan res's have been increased a little and a small increase in cargo capacity added. Nothing too drastic though.

Alastairon Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:22:00 - [26] Originally by: CCP Chronotis We merely think this will allow for some interesting strategies and less issues with the wall of cyno jammers around null sec in some cases. And we wholeheartedly agree. Being able to covert cyno into/out of jammed systems will make alliance warfare much, much more interesting. Provided, of course, we have a cohesive, logical set of covert ops ships to utilize once we get there. I think this is possibly the most important aspect of the changes to Black Ops. It must function logically with the full compliment of covert ops ships. An overall vision and focusing, if you will.
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:23:00 - [27] Stealth Bombers might be able to use cloak to keep themselves safe from POS. Lock times aren't exactly amazing, and two SB with torps do the same DPS as a CNR/Blasterthron. The only issue is lag, and the 2000m activation distance.
Souju	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Alastairon Originally by: CCP Chronotis We merely think this will allow for some interesting strategies and less issues with the wall of cyno jammers around null sec in some cases. And we wholeheartedly agree. Being able to covert cyno into/out of jammed systems will make alliance warfare much, much more interesting. not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation.
Alastairon Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:33:00 - [29] Originally by: Souju not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation. Which is exactly what you can do with a well-coordinated Black Ops ship and a strike force of SBs and Recons as they are currently envisioned in the game. You can literally wage POS warfare without having to deal with the ponderousness and exposure traveling in enemy space through stargates forces you to. If you can cyno into jammed systems and take out the jammer, for example? Or their JBs? Perhaps put all their POS into reinforced and jump back out? Plenty of uses for the new Black Ops, with the rest of the CovOps as they stand currently on TQ.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:35:00 - [30] Edited by: fuxinos on 31/03/2009 19:37:10 While you guys are at balancing already, why not buff ALL ships that seriously need a buff? They only need a few numbers changed, but you guys are trying to avoid buffing them for ages... Ferox (Damage), Prophecy (Damage), Nighthawk (Powergrid), Cerberus (CPU&Powergrid), Omen (CPU&Powergrid), Blood Raider ships (Bonis), Dread Guristas ships (Bonis), Raptor (4th Turret slot&Powergrid), and so on... I see no plaussible reason as to way it takes you guys so long to fix stuff, that are obviously so easy to fix.

Vall Kor Minmatar ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:43:00 - [31] Originally by: Alastairon Originally by: Souju not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation. Which is exactly what you can do with a well-coordinated Black Ops ship and a strike force of SBs and Recons as they are currently envisioned in the game. You can literally wage POS warfare without having to deal with the ponderousness and exposure traveling in enemy space through stargates forces you to. If you can cyno into jammed systems and take out the jammer, for example? Or their JBs? Perhaps put all their POS into reinforced and jump back out? Plenty of uses for the new Black Ops, with the rest of the CovOps as they stand currently on TQ. They are in the process of killing SBs now. So it'll be recons only.
Vina Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Alastairon Originally by: Souju not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation. Which is exactly what you can do with a well-coordinated Black Ops ship and a strike force of SBs and Recons as they are currently envisioned in the game. You can literally wage POS warfare without having to deal with the ponderousness and exposure traveling in enemy space through stargates forces you to. If you can cyno into jammed systems and take out the jammer, for example? Or their JBs? Perhaps put all their POS into reinforced and jump back out? Plenty of uses for the new Black Ops, with the rest of the CovOps as they stand currently on TQ. explain to me how you're going to take out a jump bridge/cyno jammer at a deathstar pos with 5 bombers and a recon and a widow without getting 1 shot. -----------------------------------
isdisco3 Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:59:00 - [33] Ok, so you can't code in a fuel bay, fine. But the black ops still need more jump range, and you could easily write in a larger cargo bay for them until you get your code sorted. Beyond that, kudos for attempting to solve 1 of the 3 obvious problems with black ops.
Alastairon Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:00:00 - [34] Originally by: Vina explain to me how you're going to take out a jump bridge/cyno jammer at a deathstar pos with 5 bombers and a recon and a widow without getting 1 shot. With current SBs? Sure. The Black Ops can transport 56 bombers 1-way with it's current cargo capacity. That leaves 25 bombers and a recon for a there-and-back trip. Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. decloak, target, fire. cloak. Rinse/repeat until jammer is dead 60min later. Warp back to BO. Jump out. If anyone bothers you, the falcon jams him quickly, the bombers target and alpha it outta the sky then cloak again. Or warp out, bombers warp back in and alpha invader. Total interruption time of maybe 10 sec. Nothing decloaked longer than 10 sec. Next question?
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:09:00 - [35] Quote: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. More like: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. ..DDD warp pod to safe wait for aggro timer log out Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:13:00 - [36] It's not contested until the enemy sees your blob trying to take out a jammer first. The reason why that trick won't work is because Bombers can't cloak when they're all clustered together like that. The more people in gang or on the battlefield, the more likely you're getting locked. In the context of POS guns that's instadeath.
Gromik THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. More like: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. ..DDD warp pod to safe wait for aggro timer log out Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead?
Alastairon Up2-NoGood Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Gromik So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead? Exactly. But all of that isn't possible unless Bombers have the proposed 30-sec recloak delay done away with. Otherwise you have a ship that can jump into a jammed system but nothing to jump it in with, since it's other covops-class ships cannot engaged in any sort of warfare without having to warp in/out repeatedly. One has to look at the overall battle group in order to make changes to a single ship. This is a great change for the Black Ops, but useless without a cohesive vision for the Recons and Bombers.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Gromik Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. More like: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. ..DDD warp pod to safe wait for aggro timer log out Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead? local ... what do you think the inhabitants will do when they see 26 enemies in local and they did not enter via gates ? --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:40:00 - [40] Considering that the volleydamage of a stealthbomber with torps is much higher than one with cruises, one could actually do a lot of things with them. Most cynojammers are set up to work against battleships. The arnaments, while impressive, actually won't do a lot against frigs. I once orbited such a deathstar in a ceptor without mwd (neuts are evil), and never got hit. Especially since nobody anchors missile sentries. There are mods against frigs, but you rarely see them on pos designed to kill bs. Now, with the ability to send in a lot of bombers..well. Warp in, shoot volley, fleetwarp out to a gridload. Warp back, fire volley, warp to gridload. It should work, the pos won't target you fast enough. Morsus Mihi can easily switch from 200 normal fleet into 200 stealthbombers. Basically anyone can fly them, they're a byproduct of skilling for recons or covops. Now, 200 stealthbombers being portaled into a cynojammed system would be pretty hilarious, and purely hypothetical. But if it's doable, then why not? I remember that a fleet of stealthbombers portaled on top of cva dreads put one into structure once, and they had only cruise missiles... ---------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.

Shigsy Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:50:00 - [41] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Gromik Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. More like: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. ..DDD warp pod to safe wait for aggro timer log out Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system So why not hit a system before the owners know it's contested? The ability to take out any jammer in a few LY radius of a 26 man gang sounds pretty good for first-strike capability. And why not have a large fleet look like it's after one system where enemy forces are concentrated only to hit a few systems away and jump caps in there instead? local ... what do you think the inhabitants will do when they see 26 enemies in local and they did not enter via gates ? Or use 4 BO's and bring 100 stealth bombers in.... They then have 6 minutes to try defend wherever you attacked before cyno jammer goes down.
Lewyrus Jugis Modo Utopia Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:51:00 - [42] Fuel bay, better scan res, no scan res penalty for cloacks, double jump range, cyno-jammer immunity for covert cynos, better speed bonus for Panther. May as well make them a little cheaper by cutting material cost by just a little, 5-8% perhaps.
Gromik THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2009.03.31 20:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Gromik ... local ... what do you think the inhabitants will do when they see 26 enemies in local and they did not enter via gates ? Assuming that people are actually stationed in every system at all times, which doesn't really happen. Now people passing through or watching the map will notice for sure. It would be nice to have local delayed in 0.0 as many have suggested. But the nifty use of black ops seems to me the ability to strike with little warning and bypass defenses. You can't really sneak a 100-man BS fleet through 0.0, but if your stealth fleet only enters every fourth system for a few minutes, with one cov ops moving ahead, it's at least easier, if still unlikely, to sneak in somewhere. (Note that would require bringing a covert transport with you for BO jump fuel, covert cyno fuel, and probably lots of ammo) But even with that, POS managers will still get spammed with messages about a POS being under attack, so the jig would still be up after a few minutes.
Valadeya uthanaras Corp 1 Allstars PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:04:00 - [44] Lots of love for the update, you good CCP Chronosis is a god at listening to your players and we gonna make duct tape altar in our room to worship you. You are giving it pretty much what we asked for at least a year on the other side , might you consider giving this tasty ship at least the t1 hull armor/sheild/structure amount so we are more willing to put it on the field cause atm its paperthin for a bs ^^
darkmancer	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:17:00 - [45] Originally by: Shigsy Or use 4 BO's and bring 100 stealth bombers in.... They then have 6 minutes to try defend wherever you attacked before cyno jammer goes down. ALL HAIL THE BLOB. So CCP have changed the stealth bomb for a ship that (carefully) picks off ships at gatecamps, to a tool used for blob warfare on the cheap. Nice --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:43:00 - [46] Quote: Black Ops missions often fall into the deniable category, a situation in which there is no claim of responsibility for the action, and/or a false flag operation is used to give the appearance that another actor was responsible, or -- most often -- black operations involve extensive arrangements so as to be able to hide the fact that the black operation ever occurred. Black military operations, or paramilitary operations, can be used by various secret services to achieve or attempt to achieve an unusually sensitive goal. The methods used in black operations are also used in unconventional warfare. Depending on the precise situation in a given case, and the level of authoritarianism of the national government or other responsible party, some tasks will be conducted as black operations, while there are usually other activities that can be admitted openly. Black operations may include such things as assassination, sabotage, extortion, spying on allied countries or one's own citizens, kidnapping, supporting resistance movements, torture, use of fraud to obtain funds, use of child soldiers, human experimentation, trafficking in contraband items, etc. Best thing to achieve a real Black Ops ship in EVE: give them a module to temporarily deactivate local putting it into delayed mode. Just imagine the posibilities. I would also ensure that they are able to be scanned down reasonably easy. Better than that, their module don't works while warping. EVE Knowledge
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:48:00 - [47] The general boost to black ops is welcome. But please do not forget to revisit a bit the inner balance on the class. The changes to speed in QR changed a lot for example the value of speed (makign the panther even weaker than it was). Just compare the Panther and redeemer. The ammount of DPS and tank difference is VERY large. Please do not use HAIL as a standard ammo to measure Minmatar ships damage, since all other races can achieve basically same damage as T2 ammo with Navy Ammo (without tracking penalties). When you compare 2 ships of same class and one have more range, more damage more tank, more alpha strike, more space for the jump fuel (due to ammo nature of both) while the other is ONLY 1.5% faster as a counter balance..... There IS something wrong.
Kesper North Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:51:00 - [48] We are not going to start seeing stealthbombers assaulting cyno jammers directly with this new jump bridge capability. Let's do some back-of-the-envelope calculations on this. A typical cyno jammer assault fleet might be composed of 100-150 remote-repping battleships, and takes 30-45 minutes to take down the cyno jammer. How many stealth bombers would be needed to do the same job? Assuming covert ops 4, a torpedo SB would have 70% of the DPS of an equivalent torp-fitted Raven (with the SB having 3 launchers at 40% bonus to torp damage). So if a 150-ship BS fleet took at best 30 minutes to take down the jammer, a similarly sized SB fleet might take 51 minutes to do the same raw damage. However! This assumes that every pilot does his job perfectly, cloaks before the POS guns can lock, and no ships arrive to defend or repair the jammer. If you take into account: * Pilots screwing up and getting caught by guns * Fast-locking interceptors instalocking and pointing SBs before they can recloak, holding them down for the POS guns * Defending SBs launching bombs * Smartbombing carriers and battleships repping the jammer * Titans You're looking at a dead SB fleet long before the jammer is down. Next, consider the fact that in order to bridge in that many stealth bombers, you need to either use three blackops or one blackops three times. Four times if you want any recons along. Then there's the fact that if you have 150 SB pilots to throw at the problem, you might as well throw 150 RR BS instead... No, I don't think it's practical or wise. Instead, here's my cyno jammer assault black ops vision thing: 1. Black ops cyno equipped covert ops frigate or recon arrives in the target system one or more days ahead of time and logs off. 2. The rest of the black ops fleet stages to an empty system within jump range of the target and logs off. 3. The day of the op comes, the usual RR BS fleet forms up, and it and its support travel to the target system as per normal. 4. The enemy learns of the approaching BS fleet and forms up for home defense, presumably camping the target system gate. 5. The black ops fleet logs in, and the black ops bridges them into the target system. They immediately attack the gatecamp while they have the advantage of suprise. The tactic is focused fire on single targets, hoping to alpha individual defenders then recloak. Bombs may be deployed if the attackers are hugging the gate or otherwise close together. Void bombs might be particularly effective against RR BS gangs. 6. A wing of blackops might also specifically target interdictors and mobile bubbles. 7. The suprise black ops attack having weakened the defenders' strength and strategic position, RR BS jump in with their support and begin the mop-up, then leave the support to secure the gates while they begin the cyno jammer assault proper. 8. The cyno jammer falls, dreads jump in, and the rest, we hope, is history. Thoughts?
Mikal Drey Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:52:00 - [49] hey hey can we have the jump range improved pretty please with sugar on top. i would love a recon fleet to have the ability to bridge/jump the same range as a dread/JF so it can act as an escort of sorts. atm the blackops has awfull jump range and some systems are so huge that the system next door is as far as a blackops can bridge :/ 1. get recon scout in system 2. safe up, pop covert cyno 3. bridge recon "fleet" 4. jump dreads/JF 5. ????? 6. Profit Shattered Crystal - 60 day GTC
Kesper North Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.03.31 21:55:00 - [50] Hrm, there where a few places there where I said "black ops" and meant "stealth bomber".

Malen Nenokal Oedipus Complex	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:05:00 - [51] Edited by: Malen Nenokal on 31/03/2009 22:05:25 http://www.eve-search.com/thread/967426/page/1#1 Stealth Field Emitters plz Quote: Black Ops Stealth field emitters are deployed much like an interdiction sphere but cannot be deployed in .5 or higher. Can only be deployed by Black Ops. If gate guns, stations, or stargates are within the sphere, it will aggro them and be destroyed. This means they can only be used at planets, moons, belts, and safespots. After ten minutes, the stealth field will run out of capacitor and shut down. To keep it running, cap transfer modules will have to be used on it. The deployed stealth field emitter would have a 50km range and would have the following effects on those inside: -Remove you from local -When you appear on scanner, you appear as an 'Unidentifiable Entity'. -90% loss of scan resolution Scanner isn't completely removed in order to give people at least a fighting chance of detecting a surprise attack. If the fleet properly sets up a deep safespot, complete secrecy can be achieved. The 90% loss in scan res is to prevent groups from setting this up within combat range of a gate, you will need to leave the sphere in order to engage in proper combat.
VoiceInTheDesert Zebra Corp Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:27:00 - [52] <3 bypassing cyno jammers. Might actually cause the sov map to change from time to time.
Javelin6 Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:28:00 - [53] Being able to just into cyno-jammed systems is OUT-FREAKIN-STANDING. Tweaks to scan res and cargo hold sizes are great too. However if fuel bays are a PITA to integrate, then how about just adjusting the fuel burn formula for portals? It would accomplish the same thing with less dev time. Something else to consider is maybe a bonus of some sort (skill or ship) to fuel consumption for covert portals. Again it would accomplish the same thing as a dedicated fuel bay with less dev time. And to echo my CEO: agility bonuses (or speed for that matter) on battleships is stupid. Its the automotive equivalent of putting a racing suspension on a city bus. No one gives a "flying blue f***" that you can take corners at 10 MPH instead 8. That said I am very excited to test these changes.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Fenix Zealot Is there a plan to allow them to use the covert ops cloaking device. It has been argued that due to the price of the ships, and their limited role offensively, as well as their vulnerability defensively, they should be allowed that feature. Should I point to the Titans? Noone was even thinking about possibility to have them produced on a scheduled basis, not to say use them in gangs. Now they are as common as any other ship in game, aside those unproducable and unobtainable State Ravens and Silver Magnates. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Samiloth Justinian I will hope this means more types of ships can be bridged by a Black Op (by somehow classing them as cov op ships), or is it the brawler falcon and short range torpedo bomber that will become the ships to use against POSes? No, he mean the killing of the Stealth Bombers... -- Thanks CCP for cu
Nimrel Caldari Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:49:00 - [56] While you're updating, I'd love to see a bit of "T2 Love" given to the Widow. I was surprised that when I got down to stats comparisons between my 60 MISK Scorpion and my 600 MISK Widow that my Widow was actually weaker toe to toe than its T1 brother. Special abilities aside, I'd really like to see my T2 BS have better combat stats. It doesn't need to be a p0wnmobile, but given that this ship costs almost as much as a carrier, could it at least be given T2 resists so it has a much better tank? The Widow is already dps limited so a high resist tank won't be overbalancing but it sure will make me feel better about bringing it out of the hanger and into the danger of combat.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:51:00 - [57] Naive kids... are you seriously thinking that CO gang could have more than eight bombers without being unable to cloak at all due to "you are too blobbed" message? -- Thanks CCP for cu
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Nimrel While you're updating, I'd love to see a bit of "T2 Love" given to the Widow. I was surprised that when I got down to stats comparisons between my 60 MISK Scorpion and my 600 MISK Widow that my Widow was actually weaker toe to toe than its T1 brother. Special abilities aside, I'd really like to see my T2 BS have better combat stats. It doesn't need to be a p0wnmobile, but given that this ship costs almost as much as a carrier, could it at least be given T2 resists so it has a much better tank? The Widow is already dps limited so a high resist tank won't be overbalancing but it sure will make me feel better about bringing it out of the hanger and into the danger of combat. That's a basic problem of all BO ships. When people start analyzing stats and setups, they realize BO are little to no better than t1 ship. The only worthy thing they got is this special ability with cynos and the cloak bonus It certainly would be nice if BO were better than t1 ships as far as pure combat goes
Nimrel Caldari Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:14:00 - [59] One thing that's making me nervous about the BO Covert Bridge is that with all the changes we're talking about in SBs, we may find the fleet that we can bridge in is very weak in certain areas. The biggest worry I have is if all I can bring in are SBs (only good against BC and BS with the torp changes) and Force Recons with their very limited DPS, a BO bridged fleet will be extremely vulnerable to counter fleets containing Frigates and Cruisers. Perhaps if we could bridge in the more "dps-worthy" Combat Recons to make up for lack of frig/cruiser dps of the SB, this would help BO fleets keep fights in balance...
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:20:00 - [60] Originally by: Ephemeron That's a basic problem of all BO ships. When people start analyzing stats and setups, they realize BO are little to no better than t1 ship. The only worthy thing they got is this special ability with cynos and the cloak bonus That was a sole purpose of T2 ship design. Minimal resists increase just to prove them slightly more resilient without being OP. Quote: It certainly would be nice if BO were better than t1 ships as far as pure combat goes Dead sir ever heard about Marauders? -- Thanks CCP for cu

John Zorg Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:37:00 - [61] Originally by: Javelin6 Being able to just into cyno-jammed systems is OUT-FREAKIN-STANDING. Tweaks to scan res and cargo hold sizes are great too. However if fuel bays are a PITA to integrate, then how about just adjusting the fuel burn formula for portals? It would accomplish the same thing with less dev time. Something else to consider is maybe a bonus of some sort (skill or ship) to fuel consumption for covert portals. Again it would accomplish the same thing as a dedicated fuel bay with less dev time. And to echo my CEO: agility bonuses (or speed for that matter) on battleships is stupid. Its the automotive equivalent of putting a racing suspension on a city bus. No one gives a "flying blue f***" that you can take corners at 10 MPH instead 8. That said I am very excited to test these changes. Hi, As Javelin6 said, just do the same as they did for the Jump freighter skill. 10% less fuel usage per level for a jump? I have a few questions as I have never really seen the need for these ships so have never even tried it. - Does the Covert Jump Portal generator only uses cap? - Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a cyno generator array(POS module) that only blackops ships can jump to? - Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a normal cyno? Things I would like to see: - Covert ops cloak - Decrease the fuel usage, that will solve the need for a fuel bay. 10% less per level. - Allow Covert jump portal generators to create a jump bridge to a cyno jammed system. - Increase the range to that of a titan. Comment? JZ
Vitrael Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:39:00 - [62] Originally by: Ephemeron It certainly would be nice if BO were better than t1 ships as far as pure combat goes I wouldn't even mind if they were just equal to t1 battleships and also came with properly functional jump drive, jump portal generator and cloak without targeting recalibration... and the #&%ing high slots to use them. I don't see a future for blackops in fleet warfare, especially not in cynojammer takedowns, and that is not* a problem for me. Just being able to get around the cyno jammers with the jumpdrive will make them amusing roaming gank tools. Then all they need is lots of room for fuel and some increased range and they will be a new force of hotness for pimped-out skirmish jobs. Originally by: Tonto Auri Dead sir ever heard about Marauders? Marauders are better than T1 battleships, yes, when it comes to looting missions and salvaging. For everything else they're very good at being called primary and costing more than a carrier. -----
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:57:00 - [63] This is a start but only a start. The black ops biggest failing is its limited cargo hold and limited jump range. Wasn't this ship designed to operate behind enemy lines? The ship needs the range to jump itself and covops ships from outside an enemy's borders into their carebearing systems. It needs to have greater range than capitals, not less. Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew!
Javelin6 Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:03:00 - [64] Originally by: John Zorg - Does the Covert Jump Portal generator only uses cap? Yes and No. Cap to activate and fuel is burned when ships bridge thru. Originally by: John Zorg - Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a cyno generator array(POS module) that only blackops ships can jump to? No. Originally by: John Zorg - Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a normal cyno? Yes.
Sigras	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:43:00 - [65] wow, everyone is so focused on killing the cyno jammers nobody is thinking of all the other cool stuff getting around cyno jammers allows . . . No more rorquals deployed in a belt in a cyno jammed system, no more hulks perma-tanking the belt rats with no danger. More piratey things to do? bring it on YAR!
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:44:00 - [66] Originally by: Vitrael Marauders are better than T1 battleships, yes, when it comes to looting missions and salvaging. For everything else they're very good at being called primary and costing more than a carrier. 1. Same goes to BO. 2. Use Marauder properly. They can last long enough to outclass the incoming DPS at the very least. At best, they can do that on their own. -- Thanks CCP for cu
galphi Gallente Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:55:00 - [67] Bypassing cyno jammers is a much needed capability, glad to see it added. Fuel bays will be extremely useful for all jump-capable ships, looking forward to this big change to be implemented. I don't think the Blackops need a huge amount extra to make them worthwhile, but here's my 2 cents. * Remove the scan resolution penalty from having a cloak on board. On a stealth bomber you can live with it, but on a battleship it really does make quite a difference in targeting times. * Increase resistances. They don't need to be dps gankships, but for such a huge investment in isk I think they should have a bit of extra protection. They should get the resist bonus that the Marauder-class vessels have.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:05:00 - [68] Originally by: galphi * Increase resistances. They don't need to be dps gankships, but for such a huge investment in isk I think they should have a bit of extra protection. They should get the resist bonus that the Marauder-class vessels have. ISK price is not the argument you could win with. ISK price solely decided by offer and demand balance and irrelevant to the "needed levels of protection". -- Thanks CCP for cu
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:41:00 - [69] Under no circumstances should the Black ops be given cov ops cloaking ability. The ship is intended for fighting behind enemy lines, not ratting behind enemy lines. Don't give isk farmers another invulnerability button, they have far too many already. If the Black ops had the things the op suggests in addition to an increase in scan res to off set the cloak penalty, and perhaps an increase in resists they would be fine. Considering that if a Black ops gets tackled, everyone for 2 regions around comes to kill it, just like with a capital ship, it ought to have some survivability. I have pilgrim set ups with as much or more effective hp than my Redeemer.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.01 03:07:00 - [70] Changes looks good, real good. So far we have: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in cargobay - Small increase in scan resolution - Fuel bay (when they get mechanic working, so it wont be in this patch) Some are arguing for longer jumprange. Thats a very tricky one IMO. The most common places into 0.0 will be out of jumprange, Hek, M-0 etc. But there is usually a second way in within range. And as it is right now, there is no lack of systems you can jump to. In the system I am in now, I have over 40 other systems within range.

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.04.01 05:46:00 - [71] Originally by: TZeer Changes looks good, real good. So far we have: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in cargobay - Small increase in scan resolution - Fuel bay (when they get mechanic working, so it wont be in this patch) Some are arguing for longer jumprange. Thats a very tricky one IMO. The most common places into 0.0 will be out of jumprange, Hek, M-0 etc. But there is usually a second way in within range. And as it is right now, there is no lack of systems you can jump to. In the system I am in now, I have over 40 other systems within range. As far as jump range goes: you're thinking in too limited of a fashion. Imagine, for once, that you're not in 0.0. Instead... say... you're in lowsec, and you want to jump from one lowsec pocket to another... because you're a pirate and you're -10... The jump range could do with an increase. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.04.01 06:10:00 - [72] Hi everyone, I just wanted to say that I am a bit confused. It's great to see that something is being done about the Black Ops after nearly a year of waiting I can finaly plan to use my ship. What confuses me is that you still need Input. I mean there must be hundreds of threads and responses etc. for you guys. Me was curious. Why not simply give the Black Ops that covert cloaking ? What speaks against it? As now you use SB's with covert cloak... Beside the BO's tank is still paperfin and gives no reason to be used in offensive combat, so maybe don't give it the CO Cloak but the usual t2 Buff in Resistance. Make it more usefull while tanked. Thanks for patience
Sigras	Posted - 2009.04.01 06:40:00 - [73] i propose an increase in jump range to the black ops ship, and a reduction in jump fuel use as well for jump bridging with the following trade-off, increase the effect range has on its jump bridge 2 fold, so it can make short to medium jumps reasonably easily, but to jump more than a few ships to its max range is a lesson in mathmatics and logistics . . . what do you think?
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.01 06:53:00 - [74] Even tho I want to see Black Ops boost to make it more viable in pure pvp, I'd also strongly oppose giving in Cov Ops cloak. Cov Ops cloaks don't belong on strong tank and gank ships. And as a battleship that can be fitted to tank and gank 600 dps, cov ops cloak would make it too good better give it some more resists, some more grid
Virgo I'Platonicus Zoners	Posted - 2009.04.01 08:29:00 - [75] Edited by: Virgo I''Platonicus on 01/04/2009 08:29:42 Chronotis, maybe you would consider at least giving widow some more cargo space? torps + 800 charges + 550m^3 cargo space is a combination that could be improved. V. <3
Waarph ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.04.01 08:39:00 - [76] Edited by: Waarph on 01/04/2009 08:41:45 Hello Great News I would like to stress a few ideas I saw above - jump in cyno jamm system: necessary, the short range of the black ops means that you cannot pick up your route easely as almost all systems in 0.0 are cynojammed nowadays. - Increased bay and later a fuel bay: great - less fuel: jumping a gang here and there means that I always need a friend with a blockade runner. That in turns means that any operating black-ops gang (bombers/reconn/black ops, etc..) has one more guy just for the logistic (which is on top of the black ops cargo extended and the several covert cyno guy). And you need for mid size gangs even more blockade friends and black ops. So lesser use of fuel per level of black ops seems a good idea. And as user of the black ops, I would also really stress the need to just a tiny bit of extra range. I needed to train jump drive qualibration 5 because suddenly, with the tiny 0.5 ly of extra range, the black ops become from a "lets jump two system away" to something usefull. So maybe not like a titan but a small bit (say base 2.25 or 2.5 instead or 2 ly as today). Also, please bear in mind that there are two types of use for black ops. The "gang jump bridge" black ops that is cargo extended and therefore does not enter into combat as well as the combat black ops as used by burn eden (tm not mine ). Please make sure that both use remains possible.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:00:00 - [77] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The functionality which allows us to add special cargobays to ships (such as a fuel bay, ore hold, fighter bay and so on). That functionality is not ready yet so a black ops fuel bay sits very high on our wishlist still. Are you kidding me? this functionality has been in game before i joined it - 2.5years+. Ship Maint Bays it's called. Just replicate that code. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Hell Commander Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:41:00 - [78] I only vote for fuel bay and increese in jump range.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:46:00 - [79] Originally by: Ephemeron Even tho I want to see Black Ops boost to make it more viable in pure pvp, I'd also strongly oppose giving in Cov Ops cloak. Cov Ops cloaks don't belong on strong tank and gank ships. And as a battleship that can be fitted to tank and gank 600 dps, cov ops cloak would make it too good better give it some more resists, some more grid How about tweaking the covops fitting so that it uses a lot more CPU than on a recon or covert ops frigate? Say ~300 CPU or so. So fit a covops by all means - at the cost of significantly gimping the rest of the fit.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:55:00 - [80] I`m happy some changes are coming and i seriously hope CCP make a real effort at fixing these ships.. I can fly all BOs and i`ve bought, fitted and tested 3 of them. My conclusion has been that there really is no use for BOs as they are. -small cargo bay (can`t combine cap boosters and isotopes) I see you might be doing something about this, but what about the other issues.. like misplaced bonuses.. BO has no use for a cloaking device.. 1. You can`t activate covert cynos while cloaked and the BO can`t jump while cloaked. Also it can`t warp while cloaked. If it`s can`t do any of these things- there`s no point in having a cloak on the ship. 2. Cloaked velocity bonus in pointless on BO. BO is primary fighter on the battlefield. Except for the widow the BOs will be close quarter fighters that tackle and scramble hostile ships. It doesn`t shoot-and-scoot like stealth bombers do. Some will say it can use the bonus to insta-warp after gatejumping, but it has a jump drive so there should be no need to use gates at all.. Either the BO should combine covert ops cloak with a cloaked velocity bonus of 300% pr lvl or it should replace the speed bonus alltogether- the BO is not a stealth bomber.. other gripes: -crap resists.. resists should at least be in the vincinity of tech II command ships. BOs are designed as close quarter fighters and will generally not be used at ranges beyond 40km. Resists and bonuses should reflect this (or come up with a brand new role with innovative bonuses) -slot layout.. slot layout generally degrades the BOs ability to perform the functions it`s tech i counterparts can perform. Again- give it proper role bonuses to optimize it`s role as a covert ship- end-of-the-line covert command ship (or come up with something new and innovative) -jump range is a laugh (no alliance will be surprised by a BO gang staging 3 jump away) BOs would be perfect against mission runners, but since you can`t jump into deadspace pockets and you can`t jump cloaked- they`re useless there as well.. BOs can be alot of things- right now they seem to be big close quarter combat ships with stealthbomber bonuses and longevity. Two roles have been combined that have nothing to do with each other.. You need to resolve the ship function and replace all the role bonuses and probably some of the stats. Addendum (not essential- mostly disappointed ranting) There is no point in flying 700mill ships (billion isk ships after fitting them) that are weaker then standard tech I BS and tech II command ships. I know some people use BOs in gangs to hot drop on unsuspecting ratters, but there is nothing a 5 man BO gang can do (at this time) that a regular 5 man gang cannot do. And one more point- there is no way a 5 man BO gang will ever engage a 5 man standard gang- because at that gang size there are few clear victories and loosing only 1 BO is a clear loss, while the standard gang will have a clear victory even if loosing 4 of it`s ships. There is just no advantage in fielding Black Ops. At every turn, i`ve found a mix or recons, commands ships and some other ingredients to be far superior to Black Ops.

Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:24:00 - [81] Edited by: Rajere on 01/04/2009 11:29:22 Hi. Thank you very much for the update. As early adopters and probably the most prolific PVP blackops pilots in eve, our corp has been looking forward to reading CCPs ideas for BO improvements for a long time now. After flying them for nearly a year, developing strategies and tactics for their use, analyzing their weaknesses and discovering the roles in which they excel and the right conditions for their use, we've put together our own list. Here was our wishlist for BOs improvements. Items CCP has touched upon are *bold + italicized* *+40% base scan resolution to counteract fitting a cloak.* +60 CPU (cost to fit a T2 cloak) +50% native sensor strength (Opposite of Marauders) T2 resists (racial flavor as appropriate on t2 ships) Jump Range increased to 3ly base (6.75ly with JDC 5, 6ly with JDC 4) 500-2000m3 Fuel Bay added (whatever developers feel is balanced) Covert Cynos changed to be usable in Cynojammed Systems Sin: Hull > Megathron. Developer > Duvolle. 7H:5M:7L, 5 Turrets Gallente BS bonuses changed to: 5% Large Turret dmg/lvl, 7.5% Large Turret Tracking/lvl. 5% Agility per level of blackops bonus (highly useful pre-QR, worthless now) becomes a third Turret bonus, perhaps optimal, 2nd damage, or falloff. Panther: Hull > Tempest. Developer > Boundless Creation 7H:5M:7L, 5 turrets 5% speed per level of blackops bonus (highly useful pre-QR for an entirely different reason, worthless now) removed. The Panther is thukker (like the vagabond), this doesn't work for battleships. The Panther needs to become Boundless Creation and given a 3rd projectile bonus (such as falloff). Widow: Change ECM bonus to 5% kinetic cruise/torp dmg bonus (Unfortunately this would cause a huge uproar among inexperienced blackop pilots, so is probably out of the question) -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:52:00 - [82] To Rajere... I see where you`re coming from and while i support those ideas i don`t support the reasoning behind them (from the link you posted) Your ideas will move the BO towards the close quarter brawler role, which i support- that is how i would use them as well, if my other ships weren`t better at it. Those ideas however- also remove the necessity for a cloak altogether- imho. I don`t agree that the covert ops cloak is something stupid that should never be mentioned again- as you state. I do however believe that whether to remove the cloak altogether or upgrade to covert ops cloak, that is a decision that should put the ship in line with it`s other bonuses and stats. I know what bonuses i WOULD WANT the BO to have, but i`ll not push any agenda here. As i see it CCP could go multiple ways: 1. Close quarter brawler with no cloak 2. Close quarter brawler with covert ops cloak combined with speed bonus 3. Mid range gang support ship with no cloak, but gang relevant bonuses 4. Mid range skirmish warfare ship with stealth bomber role 5. Something coherent and innovative that i can`t imagine or stay as is 6. semi-close quarter ship with stealth bomber stats and longevity I think CCP should have a thrurough session regarding what they want the ship to actually be. I think your suggestions would be a band-aid on something that should be pulled apart and redone.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 12:24:00 - [83] If ccp wants their ideas to work they need to revise a few things. Cyno jammers suffer from the same issue that station services suffer. The second ones were made to be targets for small gangs. But they have tooo much HP. Take HOURS literally with large gagns to take them down. Cyno jammers cannot have too few HP or they become too easy to bring down using battleships and large fleets. But with the current HP count they are too hard for a small gang to dent. So I suggest.. always suggested in fact. Make cyno jammers have 1/3 of current HP. But allow you to have up to 3 in same system. Now to attack a system you can have more than failure and success.. you can have a partial result.... You can make a fast strike take 1 jammer, force enemy carrier to there to repair it then your fleet can enter trough gate more easily and try to get the other ones... just an example. Would make wonders for the usage of small hit and run forces on 0.0 warfare, specially the black ops into cyno jammed systems idea. At same time suggest station services HP dropped to 1/10 of current values.... Without that.. its a VERY DISTANT DREAM that black ops gangs will be used to do anything meaningful against POSs...
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.04.01 12:50:00 - [84] Originally by: Kagura Nikon If ccp wants their ideas to work they need to revise a few things. Cyno jammers suffer from the same issue that station services suffer. The second ones were made to be targets for small gangs. But they have tooo much HP. Take HOURS literally with large gangs to take them down. Very true. And when you consider the dps a POS can put out station services arent a really viable target for small gangs. Move some of this functionality away from the POS (and by away I mean across the system away) then maybe you have some valid small gang targets. But as it stands this idea of 'black ops teams' replete with recons and SBs jumping into a system to take out a jammer or other station service is a fantasy land. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.01 13:01:00 - [85] Edited by: TZeer on 01/04/2009 13:05:37 Quote: My conclusion has been that there really is no use for BOs as they are. Then that has to be your conclusion, cause there are plenty examples where they are put to great use. Quote: BO has no use for a cloaking device.. 1. You can`t activate covert cynos while cloaked and the BO can`t jump while cloaked. Also it can`t warp while cloaked. If it`s can`t do any of these things- there`s no point in having a cloak on the ship. The cloak is to prevent you from being run over by a blob. It has a great use. Prevents you from warping from SS to SS while there are 3-4 people probing for you. You also have to take into consideration what game mechanics CCP might implement. They have stated they would like to nerf cloaks on normal ships. Quote: 2. Cloaked velocity bonus in pointless on BO. BO is primary fighter on the battlefield. Except for the widow the BOs will be close quarter fighters that tackle and scramble hostile ships. It doesn`t shoot-and-scoot like stealth bombers do. Some will say it can use the bonus to insta-warp after gatejumping, but it has a jump drive so there should be no need to use gates at all.. Either the BO should combine covert ops cloak with a cloaked velocity bonus of 300% pr lvl or it should replace the speed bonus alltogether- the BO is not a stealth bomber.. Cloaked velocity is very nice bonus thank you very much. Not everyone is running around with a covert op alt you know. Quote: Addendum (not essential- mostly disappointed ranting) There is no point in flying 700mill ships (billion isk ships after fitting them) that are weaker then standard tech I BS and tech II command ships. I know some people use BOs in gangs to hot drop on unsuspecting ratters, but there is nothing a 5 man BO gang can do (at this time) that a regular 5 man gang cannot do. And one more point- there is no way a 5 man BO gang will ever engage a 5 man standard gang- because at that gang size there are few clear victories and loosing only 1 BO is a clear loss, while the standard gang will have a clear victory even if loosing 4 of it`s ships. There is just no advantage in fielding Black Ops. At every turn, i`ve found a mix or recons, commands ships and some other ingredients to be far superior to Black Ops. Good for you then that you have found your way. But it doesnt make it right. We and as I have seen on Rajere and the gang`s killboard, we are both engaging outnumbered. That you dont have the balls to do it and all you think about is lost isk if you loose a ship, then thats your loss. But it doesnt make it less fun when the tactics actually works and people like you die to "horrible, no tank, no damage BO`s" Quote: Widow: Change ECM bonus to 5% kinetic cruise/torp dmg bonus (Unfortunately this would cause a huge uproar among inexperienced blackop pilots, so is probably out of the question) Damn right it will CCP Chronotis, can you please confirm as stated in the previous ECM thread that the Widow will get the same jamstrength as the other close range T2 ships, Rook and Falcon? Thanks
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.04.01 13:21:00 - [86] Quote: - Does the Covert Jump Portal generator only uses cap? yep. Takes isotopes for jumping stuff though. Quote: - Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a cyno generator array(POS module) that only blackops ships can jump to? Assuming you have access. You can indeed. You can set the access to like Starbase Caretaker-Corporation-Alliance. Someone in fleet with him is at the array. Activates it. You jump. Thing is though. That array lasts for 10 seconds. You have a delay. You then have to activate your mod. Then u communicate to the others to jump through. all this happening in 10 seconds? Yessssh. Quote: - Can a Covert Jump Portal Generator generate a bridge to a normal cyno? Yep. I've done this on all ends heh. Quote: Things I would like to see: - Covert ops cloak Very very unlikely. Quote: - Decrease the fuel usage, that will solve the need for a fuel bay. 10% less per level. Erm. Dont think they will go any lower. Quote: - Allow Covert jump portal generators to create a jump bridge to a cyno jammed system. Indeed... that's what the thread is about? Quote: - Increase the range to that of a titan. Well. You need jumpdrive cal 4. Which brings you to like 4ly? LESS even. Newb carriers are 6.5ly and people find that short. I dunno. Honestly black ops just needs to be unnerfed in the stats itself. sin 5000 armor? t1 domi has 6000 armor. sin 56km targeting, t1 domi 70km. 4 turrets vs 6 turrets. I think the price itself and the steep training will keep it from becoming solopwn or something. Matching the t1 domi stats for the above wouldnt be a bad thing. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.01 13:23:00 - [87] to Tzeer.. Regarding your arguments i will say that i agree to all of them. I have no issue with what your saying- i know Burn Eden for competent PvP and it`s been interesting when engaging them. I am also not contesting either Burn Edens or anyone elses results with BO tactics. If i had an active corp atm, i would have the opportunity to use BO tactics myself, but would choose not to, as i believe other tactics serve the same level of efficiency at a far less cost. But this is not where i want to take the discussion. My argument goes to the composition of the BO- the interaction of hull, role bonuses and and ship statistics and they coalesce into a Black Ops factor (as i interpret the term Black operations). As stated i believe the BO as it stands, is similar to a close quarter ship with stealth bomber stats and longevity. Do you disagree with this? Taking this notion further i`ll state that it`s a poorly defined ship that while being put to good use by rich and creative people, suffers from an identity crisis. I`d love to use my BOs, but i`d require better role-bonus-function cohesion. Do you really believe that a scan-res/fuel bay is all that`s missing for these ships to be completed? PS: People like me don`t get killed by BOs
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:20:00 - [88] Edited by: TZeer on 01/04/2009 14:23:48 Originally by: Baudolino Edited by: Baudolino on 01/04/2009 13:34:56 to Tzeer.. Regarding your arguments i will say that i agree to all of them. I have no issue with what your saying- i know Burn Eden for competent PvP and it`s been interesting when engaging them. I am also not contesting either Burn Edens or anyone elses results with BO tactics. If i had an active corp atm, i would have the opportunity to use BO tactics myself, but would choose not to, as i believe other tactics serve the same level of efficiency at a far less cost. But this is not where i want to take the discussion. My argument goes to the composition of the BO- the interaction of hull, role bonuses and and ship statistics and they coalesce into a Black Ops factor (as i interpret the term Black operations). As stated i believe the BO as it stands, is similar to a close quarter ship with stealth bomber stats and longevity. Do you disagree with this? Taking this notion further i`ll state that it`s a poorly defined ship that while being put to good use by rich and creative people, suffers from an identity crisis. I`d love to use my BOs, but i`d require better role-bonus-function cohesion. Do you really believe that a scan-res/fuel bay is all that`s missing for these ships to be completed? PS: People like me don`t get killed by BOs Addendum: to Rajere and Tzeer.. I`ve been reading the proposed changes of BOs, SBs and ECM-ships. To me it seems like major changes are coming to the function of covert-ops/Black-ops. For you guys this might not be much of an issue, but personally i`m tired of everything drifting towards mid- to large-sized gangs and fleets. I like the idea of the BO- i just hope the changes made provide for easier use for small gangs. I would say that BO has a little better longevity then a stealth bomber. And Rajere mentioned something about close to 100k EHP on their BO, dunno their setup, but thats not excactly stealth bomber stats. Close range, long range, depends how you wanna use it. No problem for both the widow and redeemer going in at range if you fit for it. Cant speak for the other two. They where poorly defined ships, cause they were very limited by all the cynojammers. I also want to stress that it`s good this ships is not a "T2 resisted, bigger damage, more defined role" ship. Makes the user use some brain and think about how he wants to use it. The black ops is very non restrictive when it comes to how you wanna use it. Other ships are not, HIC, dictors, rapier, falcon. You know what they do, and what they dont do. Bo and jumpportal, jump bridge and you get a very dynamical battleground. Quote: Do you really believe that a scan-res/fuel bay is all that`s missing for these ships to be completed? No, the biggest boost now was the ability to fire up a covert cyno in cynojammed systems. It`s crazy how many systems are cynojammed for no apparent reason. Quote: Addendum: to Rajere and Tzeer.. I`ve been reading the proposed changes of BOs, SBs and ECM-ships. To me it seems like major changes are coming to the function of covert-ops/Black-ops. For you guys this might not be much of an issue, but personally i`m tired of everything drifting towards mid- to large-sized gangs and fleets. I like the idea of the BO- i just hope the changes made provide for easier use for small gangs. You need maximum 3 peeps in gang to utilize all it`s uses. Cant get much smaller then this... I was in a gang where we had 4 ships in gang. Had no problems engaging stuff and getting fights/kills. And bringing black ops to a fleet fight i would say is a bad move.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:28:00 - [89] To Tzeer.. Then i rest my case for the moment. I`d still like a re-work of some aspects of it, but i`ll get back to it when i`ve had time to play around with the jump-portal. So far i`ve only used the BOs jump-drive and not the portal. My corp is too small..:)
Vigaz	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:34:00 - [90] Widow is a gimp Raven with same ECM capability. It's a BO so you should be able to bridge same Recons after all. There are a lot of complain about Falcons into close range fight (150M isk?), No complain about a Billion ship that have to fight short range with ECM? I strongly believe that no one is going to fit Widow with ECM, just bring a dedicated recon support, and tank as much u can. Widow proposed changed: Correct the hull description -> Raven (it's more a Raven than a Scorpion look at the bonus per Caldari BS level!) Correct the number of launcher -> 6 Remove 2 mid slot and add 1 high and 1 low slot. Remove the ecm bonus. Add 5% lol agility bonus per level. After that, pls boost all BOs to let them to be useful somehow.

TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Vigaz Widow is a gimp Raven with same ECM capability. It's a BO so you should be able to bridge same Recons after all. There are a lot of complain about Falcons into close range fight (150M isk?), No complain about a Billion ship that have to fight short range with ECM? I strongly believe that no one is going to fit Widow with ECM, just bring a dedicated recon support, and tank as much u can. Widow proposed changed: Correct the hull description -> Raven (it's more a Raven than a Scorpion look at the bonus per Caldari BS level!) Correct the number of launcher -> 6 Remove 2 mid slot and add 1 high and 1 low slot. Remove the ecm bonus. Add 5% lol agility bonus per level. After that, pls boost all BOs to let them to be useful somehow. Gimped raven or a boosted scorp, depends how you look at it... And arguments with, just bring that or just bring this, maybe it`s a small corp, maybe you dont have 200 alliance mates to come join you. Or you just plain and simple aint interested in inflating the numbers. Your changes looks more like bad trolling to be honest, so I`m not even commenting on that. Strange that you find the redeemer useless when thats the one who is actually most used.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:03:00 - [92] Basically Burn Eden are the only players who can ignore everything I say about Blackops and how they should be used. They're the kind of people who'll take 3 ravens, a sabre, and a hyena and go against a 100man blob and win, killing ship after ship after ship until the blob realizes how pathetic they are and docks up. BE can do whatever the hell they want with blackops and they're doing it right. Now to everyone else who thinks it's a good idea to sit them in high sec belts cloaked and wait for war targets to start ratting, pop haulers all day in cloaked gate camps, etc, so forth, you should listen to me, because you're doing it wrong, blackops are not Stealth Bombers. Quote: My argument goes to the composition of the BO- the interaction of hull, role bonuses and and ship statistics and they coalesce into a Black Ops factor (as i interpret the term Black operations). As stated i believe the BO as it stands, is similar to a close quarter ship with stealth bomber stats and longevity. Do you disagree with this? Taking this notion further i`ll state that it`s a poorly defined ship that while being put to good use by rich and creative people, suffers from an identity crisis. I`d love to use my BOs, but i`d require better role-bonus-function cohesion. You can fit BOs for close range or long range, it requires different strategies of course but as long as you have a solid plan in place, execute it well, then you're fine. A key part of any strategy is to use the right ships/right setups for the task at hand. You need to ask yourself, what is the best ship for this situation? When you compare a blackops to its T1 variety the T1 version quickly pulls ahead in terms of stats especially comparing effectiveness vs cost (Blackops is roughly 90% effectiveness of T1 BS @ 10x Cost). Comparing the two you must question "Why would I use a blackops in any situation where I have the option to use a T1 BS instead?" And the answer is simple, "You wouldn't." This is the point where most players decide that blackops are broken, thus asking for all kinds of buffs. However, this line of thought is incomplete and thus flawed. The next logical question you should ask is "Ok, what situations should I use a blackops in?" and the answer is "in situations where you don't have the option to use T1 BS" Basically, "what can a blackops do that a battleship cannot?" The answer to this question defines the ship's role, and it revolves around either it's Jump Drive or it's Jump Bridge. There's many reasons/situations for using the Jump Bridge, but those are obvious to most people. Here's a few of the answers regarding the Jump Drive, ie using the Blackops directly: When you need the abilities (damage, tank, etc) of a BS but, for whatever reason, you cannot use a t1 bs, such as: Any time where hostile scouts/intel channels would interfere/prevent/deter your gang from getting a fight using t1 bs, fighting in hostile space where defenders/gate camps/blobs prohibits the movement of your gang, Any time an engagement takes place in an area you cannot reach (-10) such as lowsec systems behind high sec space, or Any time where the element of surprise and the ability to dictate the engagement will enable you to defeat an unorganized but otherwise overwhelming opponent. Also, situations where time is absolutely the most crucial element of an engagement, where a few seconds makes the difference between victory and defeat. When your gang need helps immediately and you don't have time to travel X jumps to the fight, or when you must kill a target before his buddies show up, before he can deagress and dock/jump, etc. For me, Black Ops are a very well defined ship with clear Roles. In the simplest terms, Black Ops are battleships you can hotdrop using invisible 30 second cynos, in situations where capitals (carriers/dreads/etc) along with standard cynos are not viable/unnecessary/overkill/suicidal/etc. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Jarne Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:05:00 - [93] Edited by: Jarne on 01/04/2009 15:06:51 On my wish list for Eastern: :) Activation of the Covert Cynosureal Field Generator sets local into delayed mode, just like in W-Space, for the duration of the activation. Remember: The activation duration of Covert Cynosureal Field Generators is very short compared to normal Cynogens. Maybe increase the LO consumption a bit to balance it. You can then hide your gang for half a minute or longer, depending on how much fuel you want to invest. But you can't do it for longer periods of time, particularly not for hours. As soon as the Covert Cyno deactivates, local resets to immediate mode and all of your gang appears in local. You could even use Covert Cyno ships for conventional roaming ops. When in delayed mode, local should show those characters that were in local right before the Covert Cyno lit up. To notice that local is in delayed mode, you would have to jump in and look if you appear in local, or you would have to jump out and let someone else look if you are still visible in local. Thoughts? [Edit]You could even hide your fleet from being seen while passing by if you bring multiple Covert Cyno ships and enough LO.[/Edit] - Success=Achievements/Expectations
Vigaz	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:10:00 - [94] Originally by: TZeer Originally by: Vigaz Widow is a gimp Raven with same ECM capability. It's a BO so you should be able to bridge same Recons after all. There are a lot of complain about Falcons into close range fight (150M isk?), No complain about a Billion ship that have to fight short range with ECM? I strongly believe that no one is going to fit Widow with ECM, just bring a dedicated recon support, and tank as much u can. Widow proposed changed: Correct the hull description -> Raven (it's more a Raven than a Scorpion look at the bonus per Caldari BS level!) Correct the number of launcher -> 6 Remove 2 mid slot and add 1 high and 1 low slot. Remove the ecm bonus. Add 5% lol agility bonus per level. After that, pls boost all BOs to let them to be useful somehow. Gimped raven or a boosted scorp, depends how you look at it... And arguments with, just bring that or just bring this, maybe it`s a small corp, maybe you dont have 200 alliance mates to come join you. Or you just plain and simple aint interested in inflating the numbers. Your changes looks more like bad trolling to be honest, so I`m not even commenting on that. Strange that you find the redeemer useless when thats the one who is actually most used. I'm a Widow pilot. Am I wrong when I say that Widow gain RoF and velocity bonus as a Raven? (where is this bonus into the Scorpion description?) Could u please tell me what is the only BO that has different bonus per its Racial BS level then its tier1 version?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:22:00 - [95] Originally by: Vigaz Originally by: TZeer Originally by: Vigaz Widow is a gimp Raven with same ECM capability. It's a BO so you should be able to bridge same Recons after all. There are a lot of complain about Falcons into close range fight (150M isk?), No complain about a Billion ship that have to fight short range with ECM? I strongly believe that no one is going to fit Widow with ECM, just bring a dedicated recon support, and tank as much u can. Widow proposed changed: Correct the hull description -> Raven (it's more a Raven than a Scorpion look at the bonus per Caldari BS level!) Correct the number of launcher -> 6 Remove 2 mid slot and add 1 high and 1 low slot. Remove the ecm bonus. Add 5% lol agility bonus per level. After that, pls boost all BOs to let them to be useful somehow. Gimped raven or a boosted scorp, depends how you look at it... And arguments with, just bring that or just bring this, maybe it`s a small corp, maybe you dont have 200 alliance mates to come join you. Or you just plain and simple aint interested in inflating the numbers. Your changes looks more like bad trolling to be honest, so I`m not even commenting on that. Strange that you find the redeemer useless when thats the one who is actually most used. I'm a Widow pilot. Am I wrong when I say that Widow gain RoF and velocity bonus as a Raven? (where is this bonus into the Scorpion description?) Could u please tell me what is the only BO that has different bonus per its Racial BS level then its tier1 version? because you are forgetting the phanter (hint.. main typhoon weapon are torps not AC) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
ivegi Amarr Operational Urban Zion Order	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:22:00 - [96] Black ops really need to be able to use the covert ops cloaking device. Otherwise they are basically a really expensive geddon. When you compare them to other ships in their class they are always matched in pairs. Example, pilgrim and curse, Stealth bombers and Covert ops frigates. If anything another Black ops ship should be added that can fit the covops cloaking device. As I have said as it stands most think black ops are useless because they are.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:27:00 - [97] Originally by: Vigaz Originally by: TZeer Originally by: Vigaz Widow is a gimp Raven with same ECM capability. It's a BO so you should be able to bridge same Recons after all. There are a lot of complain about Falcons into close range fight (150M isk?), No complain about a Billion ship that have to fight short range with ECM? I strongly believe that no one is going to fit Widow with ECM, just bring a dedicated recon support, and tank as much u can. Widow proposed changed: Correct the hull description -> Raven (it's more a Raven than a Scorpion look at the bonus per Caldari BS level!) Correct the number of launcher -> 6 Remove 2 mid slot and add 1 high and 1 low slot. Remove the ecm bonus. Add 5% lol agility bonus per level. After that, pls boost all BOs to let them to be useful somehow. Gimped raven or a boosted scorp, depends how you look at it... And arguments with, just bring that or just bring this, maybe it`s a small corp, maybe you dont have 200 alliance mates to come join you. Or you just plain and simple aint interested in inflating the numbers. Your changes looks more like bad trolling to be honest, so I`m not even commenting on that. Strange that you find the redeemer useless when thats the one who is actually most used. I'm a Widow pilot. Am I wrong when I say that Widow gain RoF and velocity bonus as a Raven? (where is this bonus into the Scorpion description?) Could u please tell me what is the only BO that has different bonus per its Racial BS level then its tier1 version? Grats, I fly one too. But I cant see what you are trying to argue. At one point you are complaining that it has 5 launcher and not 6. And want the ECM to an agility bonus? wtf. On the other you are complaining that the ship has ROF and velocity bonus on missiles? All tier 2 = marauders All tier 1 = black Ops
Vigaz	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:44:00 - [98] I want to point out that Widow is an hybrid that doest give you any advance. Want to tank and DPS? Raven. Want to ECM and range? than Scorpion. Widow? I dunno... close range with torp t2 with ECM as tank? Widow Sig is quite big that any subcapital can get a fast lock on u. so if u jam while firing torps (only BS targets) 5 heavy drones can easly eat you alive... unless u warp out... (if u can). That's why CCP canceled the short range modification of new Scorpion (ECM nerf with new RoF bonus). I'm upset that the more expensive Widow must fight close range and suffer all the problems of the Scorpion. So if u ask me there is a big issue here. Or the scorpion is crap that needs rework (CCP says no), or the widow is crap that needs rework. Since CCP prefer the Scorpion as long range ECM boat, I guess that the Widow is crap. So better to use Raven as design.. adding 5% lol agility just to be in line with others BO... then all together they need a serious buff (new Widow included).
Malin folkungs	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:46:00 - [99] Agreed, it looks like the general consensus here is that black ops need covops cloak. Ill second (more like 300th) that.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:58:00 - [100] Originally by: Malin folkungs Agreed, it looks like the general consensus here is that black ops need covops cloak. Ill second (more like 300th) that. Would be awesome if it could fit one yes. But not if you have to gimp it to get it. Talking damage etc here. Then you would be stuck with another "support" ship that cant really kill anything unless you bring a small blob of them.

Malin folkungs	Posted - 2009.04.01 16:03:00 - [101] Originally by: TZeer Originally by: Malin folkungs Agreed, it looks like the general consensus here is that black ops need covops cloak. Ill second (more like 300th) that. Would be awesome if it could fit one yes. But not if you have to gimp it to get it. Talking damage etc here. Then you would be stuck with another "support" ship that cant really kill anything unless you bring a small blob of them. Agreed. Id rather have it stay as is and not use it if its going to get gimped. Let people cyno all over it it and watch local clear as soon as they appear on scan. I am in favor of adding a counterpart to the Black ops we have now. Like the force recon/combat recon ships combo. Maybe make another black ops that can't cyno but can use the covops cloak.
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2009.04.01 16:30:00 - [102] Love the news about the fuelbay, and that of the scan res. Mind you, in all honesty, the scan res is fine. Its the penalty that we gain when fitting a cloak. Nothing more. However, i shall stick with the majority here, and also scream cov ops cloak. A little while back, it was a mere hinderance. Then a hauler was able to do what all black ops dreamt of. Ill now sit back, and repeat my age ol' arguement, of how come a hauler, meant for hauling, can warp cloaked, when a battleship, worth 8 times as much, and designed for cloakyness, cant. Lastly (although possibly a moot point), the actual bonuses are somewhat redundant on the ships. No one needs an uber-fast battleship, or a close range ECM bs. Imo atleast. Far more useful, non-overpowered ideas out there.
Vall Kor Minmatar ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.04.01 18:44:00 - [103] Edited by: Vall Kor on 01/04/2009 18:45:04 Originally by: Waxau ... Ill now sit back, and repeat my age ol' arguement, of how come a hauler, meant for hauling, can warp cloaked, when a battleship, worth 8 times as much, and designed for cloakyness, cant. This should apply to all Recons and Cov Ops ships. The class that is designed around stealth isn't very stealthy.
Leandro Salazar Better Dead Then Smeg	Posted - 2009.04.01 18:56:00 - [104] Imho the one thing that totally breaks Black Ops is the scan res, or lack thereof. So unless you either give them a bonus that removes the scan res penalty from cloaks, allow them to fit covert cloaks (overpowered imho despite the ship price) or give them twice the current base scan res, they will remain broken regardless of what other goodies they get. So please for the love of god fix this so I can finally justify wasting isk on one of these things. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:24:00 - [105] Originally by: Vall Kor Edited by: Vall Kor on 01/04/2009 18:45:04 Originally by: Waxau ... Ill now sit back, and repeat my age ol' arguement, of how come a hauler, meant for hauling, can warp cloaked, when a battleship, worth 8 times as much, and designed for cloakyness, cant. This should apply to all Recons and Cov Ops ships. The class that is designed around stealth isn't very stealthy. That issue is indeed troublesome. And the right solution to it is to accept that a hauler has no business flying about with covert ops cloaking device. That change should be undone. All a hauler needs is ability to use 10mn MWD and fit regular cloak - that means nearly identical survivability in empire, and just slightly decreased survivability in 0.0 But then, there should be some risk to hauling expensive stuff in 0.0. When in doubt - get a scout Long long time ago, people actually organized freighter escorts, which provided fun for everyone, reasons to fight
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:54:00 - [106] Until Pilots with Covops cloaks active dont appear in local, or local is universally delayed, your much vaunted 'stealth tactics' are all so much hot air. Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.
SpaceSlag Gallente the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:58:00 - [107] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The functionality which allows us to add special cargobays to ships (such as a fuel bay, ore hold, fighter bay and so on). That functionality is not ready yet so a black ops fuel bay sits very high on our wishlist still. If I am not mistaken, you already have that functionality. Of course to a minor degree. POS silos have a limit of 1 variant of 1 type of cargo at a single time. You cannot mix Oxygen Isotopes with Nitrogen Isotopes in the same silo. You can also assign different modification bonuses on "brand X" silo with the different control towers. (+200% space, +150% space) The same would apply to the racial black ops ship as it would the racial tower. We have T3 ship parts already coded. Expand. The Black Ops ship could get a "fuel bay" part that is a rig the player adds to the ship. Because we already have these T3 ship modifications coded into the client to adjust the attributes of the ship, so could the fuel bay. Therefore the ship could now get an accessible fuel bay. The coding for specialized strontium bays and regular fuel bay for POS is existing. The coding for Corp Hangar Array Bays for carriers is existing. I'm thinking the Black Ops just would not have access to theirs unless the modification was fitted. What you get with this version rather than hard coding a silo to the ship: Scalable ship setups. Each fuel bay could reduce the ship's high slots by one and add "X" amount of space to the special bay, whereas "X" is not a percentage, but an actual integer. The least amount of high slots on a Black Ops is 7 slots, use one for a covert jump portal generator and if you have all fuel bays used, you would have 1 High slot for a cloak. -Perfect. The more buddies you can get through, the less effective your own ship is for offensive tactics. Say each fuel bay has enough fuel for 10 recons to jump through. Your own cargo bay enough for 5 recons to jump through. If you maxed out your ship, for a 1 way trip, a max of 55 recons could jump through. Cyno jammed POS setups realistically have medium autocannons or similar weaponry for cruiser to battleship defense. POS setups in cyno jammed systems have absolutely no reason for large guns. Therefore, a fleet of 55 recons will still be short lived versus a properly fit POS. If you blob the POS with 300 + recons, then the logistics involved in this feat would suggest you could take down a single POS and offline its modules. Besides, decent FC's know how to do this with a rag-tag group of battleships and not get a single scratch in their paint. Become a pirate without fear of death!
Tandin The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.04.01 20:00:00 - [108] Suggestion: With the heavy dictors serving in a gate camp role now, it might make sense to give light dictors the ability to use covert jump portals. I'm not suggesting anything silly like covert ops cloaks, just give the black ops gangs a way to bubble within reason. Light dictors are tissue paper thin anyway so it's not like they're overpowered for such a use. "Boo hoo. Cry some more." CCP Whisper "There's no such thing as too much of a deathtrap. Y'all obviously need more deathtraps." CCP Prism X
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.01 20:04:00 - [109] Originally by: RedSplat Until Pilots with Covops cloaks active dont appear in local, or local is universally delayed, your much vaunted 'stealth tactics' are all so much hot air. Eventually the local nerf will happen. And when it finally does, that will serve as yet another good reason NOT to give BO the cov ops cloak - not without significant reduction in DPS and tank
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.01 20:14:00 - [110] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: RedSplat Until Pilots with Covops cloaks active dont appear in local, or local is universally delayed, your much vaunted 'stealth tactics' are all so much hot air. Eventually the local nerf will happen. And when it finally does, that will serve as yet another good reason NOT to give BO the cov ops cloak - not without significant reduction in DPS and tank BO DPS and tank is already severly compromised, a t2 fit tier 1 BS will roll a BO at close range with ease, while snipefit BO are out performed by T1 BS. Giving Bo a covops cloak then further trashing any combat potential they have is rather nonsensical. (Go look at the panther and weep ) Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.

Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.01 20:36:00 - [111] Originally by: RedSplat BO DPS and tank is already severly compromised, a t2 fit tier 1 BS will roll a BO at close range with ease, while snipefit BO are out performed by T1 BS. Redeemer + Arazu vs Typhoon + Arazu -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.01 20:43:00 - [112] Edited by: RedSplat on 01/04/2009 20:47:11 Originally by: Rajere Originally by: RedSplat BO DPS and tank is already severly compromised, a t2 fit tier 1 BS will roll a BO at close range with ease, while snipefit BO are out performed by T1 BS. Redeemer + Arazu vs Typhoon + Arazu I see an unrigged Typhoon with a single LAR for its tank, T1 torps and an empty highslot. Further, said Typhoon has an Afterburner fit, no cap injector to run that LAR and Neut. Oh and the guy had warrior 1's apparently, assuming his Ogre/Beserker II's didnt pop earlier (?) So if your point was that a BO with an Arazu can beat a failfit Typhoon piloted by someone whom likely lacks the skills to pilot it effectively Its a Typhoon for christs sake!) even were the fit acceptable, then i guess you have made your point! (Incidentally, Arazu + Scorch using Megapulse II's will beat any close range BS with ease.) Next example please, i'm not convinced funnily enough, please excuse the passive agressive. Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:18:00 - [113] Originally by: Rajere Originally by: RedSplat BO DPS and tank is already severly compromised, a t2 fit tier 1 BS will roll a BO at close range with ease, while snipefit BO are out performed by T1 BS. Redeemer + Arazu vs Typhoon + Arazu I would say that BO tank and gank is less than that of t1 ship, but not by much, not enough to call it "severe" and even with this reduced performance, it is still too great for something that can use covert ops cloak We have to draw a line with covert ops - this unique ability should never be given to strong fighter ships. BO, as it is now, is stronger than any HAC. Giving it cov ops is like equipping Ishtars, Zealots, and Vagabonds with cov ops cloak. EVE does not need that.
SauI Tigh	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:41:00 - [114] I see you haven't seen the new t3 subsystems. Anyway black ops bs already have terrible scan resolution, 2/3 of regular bs hp, horrible targeting range and a pathetic amount of cargo room to fuel consumption ratio. If you can't give us the fuel bay yet just increase our freaking cargohold until you can! We can already jump bridge around blockade runners so you can't say that would move it from its intended purpose or something besides black ops have similiar skill requirements to that of a freaking capital and with the current jita costs it costs more to lose a black ops then it does to lose a carrier!
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:43:00 - [115] Originally by: Ephemeron We have to draw a line with covert ops - this unique ability should never be given to strong fighter ships. I can see where you are coming from with that, it is a tricky issue- the ability to use the covops cloak allows a ship to be essentially imperviable and to select targets it wants to engage. However, Blackops are Billion isk ships (or were last i checked, prices may have gone up or down slightly). As current any given BO will still die solo to a Tier 1 BS most of the time, a Tier 3 BS almost certainly. I dont believe the advent of a covops cloak will make BO Pwnsauce. At the end of the day it will only make them adept at avoiding unfavourable fights, they will still be vulnerable on any gate with an interceptor or frigate present (and a halfway competent pilot that knows how to uncloak people) and vulnerable to anything they engage that locks them and manages to tank long enough for help to arrive; and help WILL arrive at the promise of a BO kill. Originally by: Ephemeron EVE does not need that. Eve certainly does not need 'i win' button ship classes. I think we may have very different perceptions of how powerfull a BO ship will become with a covops cloak, as i see it they will still end up being fundamentally a ship favouring defensive playstyles- rather an anethema to the whole ethos of Guerilla warfare Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.
DNSBLACK Gallente Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:45:00 - [116] 1. The increase in the cargo was good but not enough another 20% per level would be nice and attach it to the Black ops skill. 2. Lower the fuel cost of the recons going thru the bridge. 3. The fuel to go thru bridge should not be the same as the fuel used to jump the ship. Heavy water or Liquid ozone would be nice. Thanks once again for the BO changes so far keep them coming. Cant wait to see what my sin gets instead of the agility bounus. As for the Cov cloak you can take it or leave it.
DNSBLACK Gallente Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.04.01 21:58:00 - [117] Edited by: DNSBLACK on 01/04/2009 22:00:01 Found something that is disturbing my max range at cal 5 should be 5 light years. On SISI it is reading 4.5 . I hope this is not part of the patch and is a mistake. please let us know. The last thing we need is less jumping range ______ Never mind iam miss read my notes ignore this. On this same note please increase our range based on our BO skills
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.01 22:02:00 - [118] vigaz please shut the ** up with your **ed changes to widow. you're **ing stupid. it's the most awesome solo ship in game. ---
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.01 22:35:00 - [119] Quote: However, Blackops are Billion isk ships (or were last i checked, prices may have gone up or down slightly). As current any given BO will still die solo to a Tier 1 BS most of the time, a Tier 3 BS almost certainly. I'm arguing in favor of boosting BO, and I agree it is a bit weak right now. But I strongly disagree that cov ops is the way to go. We need other boosts - make it a better fighter I'd say, just giving them better t2 resists and increasing scan res to offset cloaking penalty would be enough to make them quite attractive
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.01 22:43:00 - [120] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Fixes... So glad CCP is finally looking at these ships. Please address my one request: Allow Black Ops cover jump portal to move any frigate sized hull. I think this will go a long way to making all frigates including assault frigates, ewar ships and stealth bombers far more valuable in 0.0. It would also expand the Black Ops role to make it a force multiplier is small fast-moving gangs. As it is I rarely see these ships in fleet and would love for them all to have their role expanded. Thanks

RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.01 22:56:00 - [121] Originally by: Ephemeron giving them better t2 resists and increasing scan res to offset cloaking penalty would be enough to make them quite attractive Wasnt an original CCP concern with BO that having a BS with proper T2 resists would be rather over powered? I'm not personally shooting the idea down but i believe that was an issue raised; unde the general unbrella of concerns that BO would be 'the only BS class to fly' if they were monstrously tanking jumpdrive capable pwnboats. Resists become more important the larger a ship becomes as weapon damage increases between weapon sizes (small->medium->large) dont scale in the same way as base and additive HP gain between ship classes and the number of plates/extenders/resist mods that can be fitted. I would certainly like CCP to look at propping up BO damage output; a specific case in point would be the Panther, gimping its turrets like that really isnt a good idea. Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:10:00 - [122] Originally by: RedSplat Originally by: Ephemeron giving them better t2 resists and increasing scan res to offset cloaking penalty would be enough to make them quite attractive Wasnt an original CCP concern with BO that having a BS with proper T2 resists would be rather over powered? I'm not personally shooting the idea down but i believe that was an issue raised; unde the general unbrella of concerns that BO would be 'the only BS class to fly' if they were monstrously tanking jumpdrive capable pwnboats. Resists become more important the larger a ship becomes as weapon damage increases between weapon sizes (small->medium->large) dont scale in the same way as base and additive HP gain between ship classes and the number of plates/extenders/resist mods that can be fitted. I would certainly like CCP to look at propping up BO damage output; a specific case in point would be the Panther, gimping its turrets like that really isnt a good idea. You already acknowlegde that BO are inferior to t1 bs for fighting role. How would adding 10-15% more resists on 2 of the 4 attributes make them "the only bs to fly"? I'm not talking about HAC resists, I'm talking about Maraduar resists
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:15:00 - [123] Originally by: RedSplat I can see where you are coming from with that, it is a tricky issue- the ability to use the covops cloak allows a ship to be essentially imperviable and to select targets it wants to engage. Blackops already do this. Quote: I dont believe the advent of a covops cloak will make BO Pwnsauce. At the end of the day it will only make them adept at avoiding unfavourable fights, Blackops already excel at avoiding unfavorable fights, in fact that is basically their selling point. Blackops completely dictate the terms of their engagements, they choose who when where how and what they engage. I don't think you understand exactly how much control blackops have in terms of dictating engagements, otherwise you'd never claim that adding a CO Cloak would somehow improve this. Imagine the following scenario, you have 3-5 unknowns currently in your home system. They are sitting cloaked at safe spots, much like those isk farming cloaky ravens ninja ratting out in deep 0.0, as long as they remain cloaked up there's nothing you can do except sit there, continue scanning hoping that one of them uncloaks long enough for your to probe them. You set up a camp and place tacklers on the other side of each gate leading out of this system, hoping they get bored/frustrated and that you can catch them when they try to leave system. However, unlike ninja ratting ravens, you setting gate camps isn't impacting these guys in the slightest. You could bubble up every gate and have 20 guys manning each camp and you'd still be completely inconsequential to these guys, they're just laughing at you in local. Suddenly they disappear from local, and you're yelling at your scouts to try and find out where they went. 2 seconds later someone calls for help. Turns out, they simply teleported from the system you had locked down to another system 12 jumps over, directly on top of your buddy's CNR who was ratting in a belt. His ship pops in less than 30 seconds, all his loot is scooped and they insta-warp to a safe spot in that system and cloak up. 3-4 minutes later your gang finally enters local, they laugh at you, then teleport from their safe spot directly on top of their next victim. They kill so fast they can even hotdrop targets in the system the defense gang is in, destroying their target and warping off before you can make it out of warp. Quote: they will still be vulnerable on any gate with an interceptor or frigate present (and a halfway competent pilot that knows how to uncloak people) and vulnerable to anything they engage that locks them and manages to tank long enough for help to arrive; and help WILL arrive at the promise of a BO kill. What do you mean they will still be vulnerable on any gate with an inty/frigate? A: Why on earth would they be using stargates? and B: With the current cloaked speed mechanics (aka stealth bomber bonus), even if they did use a gate they currently are invulnerable to anything short of a Bubble, ie in Low Sec (in 0.0, again why would they be using gates at all?). With the current cloak bonus they enter warp in 4 seconds flat (1.5-2.5sec for the Sin) and that entire time they are cloaked thus untargettable. Basic client/server overview lag prevents frigates from being able to get a bead on them and decloak them before they reach warp velocity and uncloak/warp off. Giving them a Cov Ops Cloak would actually make them vulnerable to inties/frigates decloaking/tackling them since losing the SB bonus and instead warping cloaked increases the time it takes for them to enter warp. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Bobbeh Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:28:00 - [124] Originally by: Ephemeron Stuff see above I agree with Ephemeron their reists are sub par for t1-t2 increases for all ships. I mean you fit the exact same tank on the tier 1 and you get several thousand more ehp than the black ops. Some Will argue the Cloak is part of your tank you only uncloak when you know you can win. But with the locking delay from uncloaking you dont get the OH **** factor you would if you could instantly start locking and with the current scan res locking is a pain anyway. The way i see these ships used is you bring a regular fleet to engage enemy defenders you slip a cov ops behind them and cyno in your blackops and force recons and sbs and camp their retreating gate with the covert gang. Some things that i think could be added are giving the Dictor the ability to use the black ops jump portal. Black ops bs's should beable to anchor something midwarp channel that sucks ships out of the channel like a bubble but ends in the middle not either end. it wouldnt keep you there and you would come out somewhere in the bubble still aligned and at 50% speed but if they had a hic or a dictor they could catch you. If not covert cloak give black ops the ability to lock while cloaked once locked they uncloak but while the ships systems are locking the ship is still cloaked like a passive targetter but built in. Inherant +1 to warp strength... i mean if they were building a behind the enemy lines covert spy bs youd think theyd put the tech from the blockade runner into it to make it harder to catch. Finally Higher sensor strentgh why is a cutting edge BS platform has less sensor strentgh that its t1 counterpart To all that said the panther is too slow agreed.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:42:00 - [125] Originally by: Ephemeron You already acknowlegde that BO are inferior to t1 bs for fighting role... I'm happy with the Black Ops in a purely logistics role. If someone's shooting at your Panther you've already made a mistake somewhere. Personally I think the ship's stats are fine for the most part. It just doesn't work for the role of moving smaller ships quickly and quietly from point A to point B behind enemy lines. With a cov ops cloak or T2 resists, or scan-res improvements it comes out of that role and moves to the front lines. Again, I'm happy if the thing can just move more ships through the cov ops portal. Allowing for any frig-sized hull accomplishes that without making it over powered.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:47:00 - [126] Originally by: Ephemeron You already acknowlegde that BO are inferior to t1 bs for fighting role. How would adding 10-15% more resists on 2 of the 4 attributes make them "the only bs to fly"? I'm not talking about HAC resists, I'm talking about Maraduar resists It wasnt my intention to suggest that giving BO t2 Resists was definitely OP, but i'm pretty sure that was an issue that was considered when they were first rolled out. I dont think giving BO Marauder resists would make BO 'the only thing to fly', but i was trying to stimulate discussion about that. My personaly view is that anything that uses stealth should be relatively fragile (but perhaps as fargile as BO are currently?), i personally like the idea of compensating for that with increased damage output or crippling EWAR (Pilgrim style, not Falcon!) Honestly, i'm not sure what to think of giving BO T2 resists, but i do certainly think they should have aspects of thier tank improved so they are at least significantly better than rigged tier 1 BS. Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.
Lilla Kharn Amarr THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:48:00 - [127] Bridge to cyno towers like titans can. It doesn't make sense how we can jump to towers but yet we cant bridge to them. Just an idea
Potrero Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.04.01 23:58:00 - [128] Originally by: Rajere Turns out, they simply teleported from the system you had locked down to another system 12 jumps over, directly on top of your buddy's CNR who was ratting in a belt. His ship pops in less than 30 seconds... Huh? We're talking Black Ops here, right? 12 jumps? How? Pop a CNR in 30 seconds? With a Panther? Again how? And how would they ever find such a target anyway. Any sane CNR pilot would see the hostile covert cyno-ship in local and cloak up. Sounds like you're flying a different ship than I am.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.02 00:00:00 - [129] Originally by: Lilla Kharn Bridge to cyno towers like titans can... /signed
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.02 00:07:00 - [130] Originally by: Rajere Blackops already do this. Not nearly as effectively as a covops cloak will allow Quote: Blackops already excel at avoiding unfavorable fights, in fact that is basically their selling point. Blackops completely dictate the terms of their engagements, they choose who when where how and what they engage. I don't think you understand exactly how much control blackops have in terms of dictating engagements, otherwise you'd never claim that adding a CO Cloak would somehow improve this. Imagine the following scenario, you have 3-5 unknowns currently in your home system. They are sitting cloaked at safe spots, much like those isk farming cloaky ravens ninja ratting out in deep 0.0, as long as they remain cloaked up there's nothing you can do except sit there, continue scanning hoping that one of them uncloaks long enough for your to probe them. You set up a camp and place tacklers on the other side of each gate leading out of this system, hoping they get bored/frustrated and that you can catch them when they try to leave system. However, unlike ninja ratting ravens, you setting gate camps isn't impacting these guys in the slightest. You could bubble up every gate and have 20 guys manning each camp and you'd still be completely inconsequential to these guys, they're just laughing at you in local. Suddenly they disappear from local, and you're yelling at your scouts to try and find out where they went. 2 seconds later someone calls for help. Turns out, they simply teleported from the system you had locked down to another system 12 jumps over, directly on top of your buddy's CNR who was ratting in a belt. His ship pops in less than 30 seconds, all his loot is scooped and they insta-warp to a safe spot in that system and cloak up. 3-4 minutes later your gang finally enters local, they laugh at you, then teleport from their safe spot directly on top of their next victim. They kill so fast they can even hotdrop targets in the system the defense gang is in, destroying their target and warping off before you can make it out of warp. That really is rather idealized; not to mention fuel req's, the number of accounts/player required, coordination and the isk requirements to setup something like that. Exactly how much fuel are you carrying/ how many jumps are you capable of? The specifics of the BO portal/covert cyno arent familiar to me. Something else to consider: Covops cloaks and warping cloaked is a mighty benefit, instead of sitting in a safespot relying on a scanner or on a covops or on another BO your BO are now warping off gate or belt and carefully positioning themselves for the kill. Perhaps i do underestimate how effective BO are currently, but the utter reliance on a finite fuel resource in areas where you shouldnt be able to readily resupply as in your hypothetical, neccesity of uncloaking to warp and reliance on multiple accounts/character/individuals to be effective... hmm Quote: a Bubble, ie in Low Sec (in 0.0, again why would they be using gates at all?). With the current cloak bonus they enter warp in 4 seconds flat (1.5-2.5sec for the Sin) and that entire time they are cloaked thus untargettable. Basic client/server overview lag prevents frigates from being able to get a bead on them and decloak them before they reach warp velocity and uncloak/warp off. Yes the Sin has a agility bonus does it not? How do the other BO fare assuming combat fits? Lag works both ways, or as so often of late only one and usually the individual jumping into th ecamp Quote: Giving them a Cov Ops Cloak would actually make them vulnerable to inties/frigates decloaking/tackling them since losing the SB bonus and instead warping cloaked increases the time it takes for them to enter warp. I really didnt consider that. You present some compelling arguments, i'm having a another think about Covops cloaks specifically Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.

Silent Sins Deliciously Vicious	Posted - 2009.04.02 00:22:00 - [131] moar pwg and cpu all around! ------------------------------ ------------------------------
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2009.04.02 04:14:00 - [132] Originally by: Potrero Originally by: Rajere Turns out, they simply teleported from the system you had locked down to another system 12 jumps over, directly on top of your buddy's CNR who was ratting in a belt. His ship pops in less than 30 seconds... Huh? We're talking Black Ops here, right? 12 jumps? How? Pop a CNR in 30 seconds? With a Panther? Again how? And how would they ever find such a target anyway. Any sane CNR pilot would see the hostile covert cyno-ship in local and cloak up. Sounds like you're flying a different ship than I am. I have to agree - 12 jumps is a bit over the top for black ops. In EVE topology 'normal' distance for black ops to cover with max jumping skills is around 5 - 7 jumps. Yeah there is locations where - if you are in exactly right point there are systems up to 15 j away you might be able to reach but that is few pretty special locations.
SATAN BURN EDEN Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.02 05:49:00 - [133] Tzeer, Coke, smile, and STFU. If you want to be like Eve University then go join them. Your job is not to train noobs or tell them who, what, when and why.
McEivalley Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.02 06:47:00 - [134] Edited by: McEivalley on 02/04/2009 06:49:35 Ok, so I've been criticizing a lot but not giving any ideas... so I decided to say its a nice direction but you need MOAR. Here's what I think: 1) Dedicated fuel bay? Kwl. 2) Cyno activity in cyno proof system? Kwwwwwl. 3) Cyno ECCM... WHAT?! I WANT THAT!!! do that! Ok, on #3 topic. Someone suggested it but this is the way I see it working.Black ops are, much as recons are, a specialized ship that handles all sorts and forms of ewar. It is cool, to be able to open a bridge to coverts behind enemy lines, but after that... what? Die? No! dedicate them in the art of ECCMing the system from cyno jamming like the idea thrown above. However, this needs polishing. What I'm suggesting is this: If you get enough black ops on a cyno jammer, they could jam it long enough for a normal cyno to be lit. It would be pretty hard to do that as it is. The module that only black ops could fit (99% role bonus to cyno ECCM module cpu fit) will have the following disadvantages: 1) -100% bonus to ship speed. 2) Unable to cloak while active. 3) Requires a huge amount of cap to operate. Say, about 40% of the ship's total cap will be required for 1 cycle. 4) The eccm is a localized effect. A cyno can be lit up to 10kms away from the black op ship if the cyno jammer is jammed. 5) As hinted so far, this is - much like normal jammers are - chance based. 6) The module also works as a double edged sword, in the sense that the cyno ewar distorts space/time so much to tear the universe fabric blah blah, that it acts like a super dampner on all ships trying to lock the black ops. -75% to -90% per black ops level when cyno ECCM is activated to lock the ship. So while the POS and reacting support arrives at the scene have trouble locking them and give the black ops a solid chance to maintain the cyno-jammer jammed long enough for a normal cyno to be open, the POS would still be able to target these faster than big ships RR (including their own) could start working on saving their asses (not mentioning capitals). This might actually usher a new era for a real use to small RR modules that since forever have been neglected by anyone that can use medium or larger remote reps (Inties with RR module on the KM? Not gonna make you laugh that much anymore). 8) Using the module will require fuel. You want this to be threaded with your W-space effort? The gas that can only be harvested in w-space aches for yet a new way to refine it or something... That would probably make some alliances far-far more interested in W-space than ever before. 9) Can fit only 1 cyno ECCM module on the ship. If you do that, everyone will love you long time. - Edit: added issue module effect #9. Do - don't die trying.
Waarph ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.04.02 07:24:00 - [135] @ RedSplat: Making sure that enough fuel is available is the issue that any group wishing to use black ops must make sure to solve before going into any operation. I would even say that fuel availability as well as playing in group (or with alts) are the two things necessary to successfully use black ops. Also, Rajere and Burn eden have proven on the field of battle that the way they use black ops is efficient. Now that was my friendly two cents to your ongoing discussion Cya in space
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.04.02 07:52:00 - [136] The fuel bay is obviously a required step, at least if you want to make the jump portal useful in practice. Ability to jump/bridge into cynojammed systems is a nice bonus. Not 100% sure those are enough to make the ships balanced... maybe some small bit more would be needed. Perhaps a (small) extension of the jump range (it's extremely short at the moment). Maybe bit more resists. Or something like that. No way should they fit a covops cloak, imho.
Zeimanov Kalzumaan Caldari Haruspex Industries	Posted - 2009.04.02 08:09:00 - [137] Originally by: Nimrel Perhaps if we could bridge in the more "dps-worthy" Combat Recons to make up for lack of frig/cruiser dps of the SB, this would help BO fleets keep fights in balance... I was under the impression you already could. If CCP implement this it could be at least the start of making a much-loved ship class relevent. As part of "defining the role" of stealth - ships ect, the ability to engage Jammers and Bridges deep in enemy territory would be fantastic. The best way to do it would be to make a bomb that has a 5-10% chance (tweak the numbers) to temporarily disable a Cyano jammer for 10 mins. If it where a low chance you would still need a decent sized fleet of bombers and it would be much riskier to deploy bombs than cruises or torps - the reward would be well worth it though!
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.02 10:09:00 - [138] As CCP is generous with cloaks lately: can i has covops cloak on HACs and t1 BS too? Read it as: stop putting covops cloak on everything. Bombers do not need it. Nor Blackops. Nor blockade runners.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.02 11:27:00 - [139] Originally by: Waarph Also, Rajere and Burn eden have proven on the field of battle that the way they use black ops is efficient. Cya in space People actually use BO regularly for combat, on Tranq? Okay i exagerate but BO are the only ship class i almost never see in space (i'd love the changes proposed to change this) goes looking for video Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't have holidays. I don't leave the forums unattended. I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Waarph ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.04.02 11:48:00 - [140] Originally by: RedSplat Originally by: Waarph Also, Rajere and Burn eden have proven on the field of battle that the way they use black ops is efficient. Cya in space People actually use BO regularly for combat, on Tranq? Okay i exagerate but BO are the only ship class i almost never see in space (i'd love the changes proposed to change this) goes looking for video a rare few... a too rare few

Shaitis Caldari Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.02 12:18:00 - [141] Originally by: Ephemeron Samiloth Justinian is completely right about the state of POS warfare In addition to strong enemy presence, you can pretty much count on having at least 1 titan guarding the cyno jammer any Black Ops and recon gang that dares to approach would be instantly slaughtered. So one thing for sure, Black Ops role shouldn't be about taking out the cyno jammer, but find some way to bypass it completely. How about this: BlackOps can enter cyno jammed system, then anchor a special device (that only works outside POS shields) that acts like a beacon to which anybody can warp, and when it's done onlining in 2-4 mins, it creates a regular cyno, bypassing cynojammer, that every friendly cap ship jump to and get bridged to. This would be fair to the enemy as they would have 2-4 minutes to warp to that device and destroy it THIS
666Devious Sinister Elite	Posted - 2009.04.02 12:28:00 - [142] More fuel, more range, and covert ops cloak. Thats all thats needed. It follows the progression of lighter tanked ships that warped cloaked. You have a frig that warps cloaked made of tissue, u have a cruiser that warps cloaked made of paper, can we have a battle ship made of cardboard?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.04.02 13:45:00 - [143] I really don't think it would be a good idea to give covops cloaks to ships that can gank and tank. Some other form of love might be needed though (in addition to the fuel bay stuff). I'd personally like to see a bit more jump range (the current one is painful), and a bit more armor/shield resists. But please, no covops cloak... and I say this as someone who has a BO and intends to fly it in combat in the near future.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:04:00 - [144] Good broad discussion on the impact and future potential this change has. I think the black ops commando style appeals to many of us and many of you have good up with good ideas for further expanding on this which have been noted and its deeper role in conflicts, whether through sabotage or surprise attacks and ways in which a heavily camped system could be penetrated besides a full frontal assault. Ideas like these will have much more meaning in the expansions to come. You should if not already know that sovereignty and null sec very high on our list of what's coming next from Hammerhead and t0rfifrans talks with the CSM, press and Eve-TV interviews. Suggestions for further improving the black ops A lot of these have a lot of merit and deserve attention. We sadly do not have time needed to commit to making any more changes for this patch but as said previously we are definitely not done yet with Black ops and more changes are to come in the future. Covert ops cloak for black ops There is pros and cons to this, we can definitely see why it would be good and deserved however in combination with the other abilities of the ship would probably make it far too powerful though nothing is set in stone here. Why is adding special cargoholds so hard? It is not particularly difficult but does carry some risk making any changes to the inventory system. More importantly it takes time above all else which is time we used to add changes or fix defects elsewhere with higher priority. We also want to do it right so it add a great tool for us in design to utilize so we can add and develop ships as a result of the ability to add special holds to them. In short, watch this space and we will continue to give our love to this ship line in future releases.

MuffinsRevenger EmpiresMod	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:07:00 - [145] How about allowing covert op cyno fields to be lit in highsec? That way, apart from sneekyness enamblers in lowsec, they could be used to be a part of trade chains using blockade runners

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:23:00 - [146] Originally by: MuffinsRevenger How about allowing covert op cyno fields to be lit in highsec? That way, apart from sneekyness enamblers in lowsec, they could be used to be a part of trade chains using blockade runners It is a nice possibility but would have to be carefully tested to ensure there are no possible exploits.

musgrattio H A V O C Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:53:00 - [147] Please, don't allow covert ops cloaks. I don't think many people at all realize how powerful the ship is, even in its current state, and if they could use covert ops cloaks, it would be overpowered to the extreme. I say that as someone who actually uses black ops quite a bit. The changes for cyno jammers we do thank you for, the only other thing we need is the fuel bay. Without a fuel bay, the only useful ship to bridge is a blockade runner, otherwise the portal is just a waste of fitting resources. After this next patch, could you please do some work on a fuel bay, then release it as soon as possible? You promised us this fuel bay 2 or 3 patches ago now, we've been waiting a long time. After this patch, it wouldn't even take you a week to sit down and figure the fuel bay out. We deserve it :)
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.04.02 14:55:00 - [148] Originally by: CCP Chronotis It is a nice possibility but would have to be carefully tested to ensure there are no possible exploits. Same with everything yes? No jumping with a GCC would eliminate the immediately obvious (and previously used) one. Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:04:00 - [149] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Good broad discussion on the impact and future potential this change has. I think the black ops commando style appeals to many of us and many of you have good up with good ideas for further expanding on this which have been noted and its deeper role in conflicts, whether through sabotage or surprise attacks and ways in which a heavily camped system could be penetrated besides a full frontal assault. Ideas like these will have much more meaning in the expansions to come. You should, if not already know that sovereignty and null sec are very high on our list of what's coming next from Hammerhead and t0rfifrans talks with the CSM, press and Eve-TV interviews. Suggestions for further improving the black ops A lot of these have a lot of merit and deserve attention. We sadly do not have time needed to commit to making any more changes for this patch but as said previously we are definitely not done yet with Black ops and more changes are to come in the future. Covert ops cloak for black ops There is pros and cons to this, we can definitely see why it would be good and deserved however in combination with the other abilities of the ship would probably make it far too powerful though nothing is set in stone here. Why is adding special cargoholds so hard? It is not particularly difficult but does carry some risk making any changes to the inventory system. More importantly it takes time above all else which is time we used to add changes or fix defects elsewhere with higher priority. We also want to do it right so it add a great tool for us in design to utilize so we can add and develop ships as a result of the ability to add special holds to them. In short, watch this space and we will continue to give our love to this ship line in future releases. but then can't you make an at least temporary chagne on fuel usage for the black ops? So they can do soemthign with their current cargo? As of now basically the Sin and Redeemer are usable because they need none or almost no ammo. Widow focus is not on damaging so same situation. But panther eats ammo like mad and needs half cargo hold for that. Or at least increase a bit the panther cargo hold :( ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:38:00 - [150] I've seen a few mentions of the essential impossibility of taking down a Cynojammer with a black ops fleet, one suggestiong was having multiple smaller cynojammers around a system with fewer hitpoints. That sounds kinda interrresting, but then you still need to bring enough combined DPS. So, how about combining the multiple jammer idea with a specialist bomb for stealth bombers which doesn't do any damage, but disables a cynojammer's jamming ability for a short time, maybe 10 minutes. So then the black ops beachhead operation requires enough recon to locate all the cynojuammers in system ahead of time, and then the attack will require coordinating multiple stealth bombers (and backups in case one fails) to simultatneously disable all the cynojammers and create a short jump in window for plain old fashioned non-covert cyno's. Possibly overpowered, but then the defender can make things harder by deploying more cynojammers in a system.

Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 15:57:00 - [151] Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 02/04/2009 16:06:19 Originally by: Illectroculus Defined I've seen a few mentions of the essential impossibility of taking down a Cynojammer with a black ops fleet, one suggestiong was having multiple smaller cynojammers around a system with fewer hitpoints. That sounds kinda interrresting, but then you still need to bring enough combined DPS. So, how about combining the multiple jammer idea with a specialist bomb for stealth bombers which doesn't do any damage, but disables a cynojammer's jamming ability for a short time, maybe 10 minutes. So then the black ops beachhead operation requires enough recon to locate all the cynojuammers in system ahead of time, and then the attack will require coordinating multiple stealth bombers (and backups in case one fails) to simultatneously disable all the cynojammers and create a short jump in window for plain old fashioned non-covert cyno's. Possibly overpowered, but then the defender can make things harder by deploying more cynojammers in a system. The idea was mine. Is base don the concept that as of now attack any structure in eve is an all or nothing work. And the path between nothing into all is a HUGE one. By separatign in several smaller milestones you give somethign for smaller fleets to work on. You can attack and cripple 1 of the mini jammers. If enemies force you away.. ok you leave. But then you have done something. As of now with the HUGE jammer, you need to bring a HUGE fleet to be able to kill the jammer before a titan appears and makes all your work means nothing. The idea you propose look cool, but then the number of jammers woudl need to be ilimited i think. PErsonnaly I think (IF POSSIBLE TO BE IMPLEMENTED) a second damage bonus of 100% applying only when targeting structures would help a lot to solve this. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Vigaz	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:06:00 - [152] Originally by: Kayosoni vigaz please shut the ** up with your **ed changes to widow. you're **ing stupid. it's the most awesome solo ship in game. Right, It's the most awesome solo ship in game. Do you mind if I ask u: How do u know that? I'm looking at Bob KB, but I can just see ur Widow loss, I'm not able to see any solo kill. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong KB.
Ex Caliburr Caldari	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:22:00 - [153] Originally by: Captain Vampire Cloak for these ships, covops or not, is next to useless with the instant local in 0.0. I assume the design role of black ops ships are to enter hostile space undetected and bring firepower/ewar capabilities to a greater extent than their cruiser counterparts. The concept is awesome and very interesting, but it is pretty much impossible to achieve this per se due to local. Improving the ships with a fuel bay and the ability to jump to cynojammed systems will improve the "fun/buck" ratio, but the black ops ships (and their cruiser counterparts in lesser extent) will not really fill their designated role until delayed local is introduced in 0.0. How about BO get a race-specific "command ship" type effect as well? Gang ECM bonus for widow, gang drone bonus for sin, etc? won't be overpowered, blacks ops ships aren't that common, are they?
Valadeya uthanaras Corp 1 Allstars PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:24:00 - [154] Again lots of <3 CCP Chronotis but on a more serious note, I fail to see how a covert cloak would make the ship into overpowered: It doesnt have a very large tank With covert cloak having a 30 sec delay , you cannot achieve, especially in a battleship, a uncloak/fire/cloak without having significant chance of getting caught and losing a really expensive toy a covert cloak will mean: get a real bonus instead of the cloaking speed one (lots of love could generate from there - and help us to use them in real fight) get around the extremely low jump range problem , with high risk make them more stealthy and reduce de extent of the signature resolution problem as for tactic , well , with the new bombers , they could become tool of mass fun ... but never getting the fun themselve .... unless they get something so its less crazy risky to put them on the feild with their pre-nerfed stats
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.04.02 16:25:00 - [155] Originally by: Kagura Nikon PErsonnaly I think (IF POSSIBLE TO BE IMPLEMENTED) a second damage bonus of 100% applying only when targeting structures would help a lot to solve this. I think other posters have come up with estimates that it would take an hour or so to take down a cynojammer with stealth bombers, even with a 100% damage boost that's half an hour, assuming that the bombers don't get popped by defenders.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:08:00 - [156] Originally by: Illectroculus Defined Originally by: Kagura Nikon PErsonnaly I think (IF POSSIBLE TO BE IMPLEMENTED) a second damage bonus of 100% applying only when targeting structures would help a lot to solve this. I think other posters have come up with estimates that it would take an hour or so to take down a cynojammer with stealth bombers, even with a 100% damage boost that's half an hour, assuming that the bombers don't get popped by defenders. Check the context of my post. We are talking on using that sided with jammers being divided in multiple WEAK jammers in each system. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:09:00 - [157] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 02/04/2009 17:12:06 Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 02/04/2009 17:10:04 The cov ops cloak is ridiculous on a BS sized ship. The only use for it is to make warping in and out of belts while ratting easier. I really get tired of seeing people cry for it on Black Ops. Cov ops on a ship that size is useless in combat, and wont help a ship get off a gate because even a cruiser with decent speed could decloak a BS before it warps. The only arguement for it I can see is the ability to put the Black Ops on grid unseen, then warp out again at a later point unseen. Really, there isn't much tactical ability in that. The ship still goes down like a wet sack once any fair amount of dps hits it. It is still incredibly easy to lock with a BS sized sig radius, and even easier to tackle with it's crap speed. Basically the only thing the cov ops cloak is good for is running away. At least the improved cloak, the velocity bonus and a single cycle of mwd allows you to try to get the ship out of the way of a decloak, or use the cloak/mwd/align insta warp trick. Perhaps Black Ops might benefit from the same increased cloaked velocity bonus as the new bombers? It would make for a fast cloaked BS, but it might would make them much more effective while using the improved cloak. Edit: I think CCP needs to look into the Black Ops survivability / cost ratio and the same ratio for a nearly equally priced carrier.
Illectroculus Defined	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:27:00 - [158] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Check the context of my post. We are talking on using that sided with jammers being divided in multiple WEAK jammers in each system. Yes, you said, 3 jammers with 1/3 the hitpoints. so if it takes an hour to take down one full strength jammer it'll take 3 x 1/3 hour = 1 hour to take down 3 weakers jammers.
cptgone	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:30:00 - [159] i'd love to have a fuel bay in all types of ships, to store liquid ozone in (to fuel jump bridges with)
Destructor1792 Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:30:00 - [160] Nice to see these puppies are eventually being looked at As others have already stated the thing the BO needs more than anything is: Removal of Scan Res penalty - This is just plain daft & one of the main reasons why the majority is screaming for the ability to use cov-cloaks. Resists - these things shouldn't be solo pawn mobiles but their current tanks are very much "meh" for a ship which costs nearly as much as a Capital!! Boost the Resists to the T2 varients but remove any DPS bonuses. Gives them survivability during pew pew engagements but very limited chance of destroying things whilst solo. Jump Portal / Range / Fuel costs: This is probably the biggest gripe with all BO pilots out there! Max range should be not as far as a carrier or Dread but alot more than what it currently stands at. And lets not forget that you still need to move your cov-cyno pilot to the target system which in itself, can take a fair bit of work & time! The bridging mech. is one that has always had me scratching the old bonce! Issue 1: No idea how much fuel you need as ships bridge through (lots of guestimates needed) Issue 2: If you're unlucky to not have a transport ship with you, Issue 1 becomes an absolute mare due to juggling space with fuel / ammo reqs! Why not just have the jump portal use a set amount of fuel but hard code the amount of ships able to jump through at any one time ? Introduce a cool down timer to limit the abuse. Example: 500 isotopes per activation 60 sec cycle time (cannot auto repeat, 10min reactivation delay) Max Ships per bridge: 1 x transport 3 x recon 3 x cov-ops 5 x SB's You've now removed the need for a fuel bay & BO's can actually carry a decent stock of Ammo,etc. instead of wasting 95% of their space on fuel. Even means if you have no access to a transport ship, other members can bring along a bit of fuel without seriously impacting their own ammo stocks. Anyhows, i'm starting to ramble so I'm gonna go WTFPWN a coffee & smoke - will probably edit this at some point to make it clearer / add bits I missed, etc ______________________________________ Bringing The Fun Back [gold]I Have No Fear, That's your Problem[/go

Dirap Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.02 17:45:00 - [161] The ability to create a bridge to a cyno beacon would be greatly appreciated.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:11:00 - [162] Hey Folks, we will be testing some additional changes on sisi over the weekend. The jump fuel base cost has been reduced from 400 to 300 isotopes lowering your isotope use a little while jumping. A small change but nonetheless a good one.

Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:26:00 - [163] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 02/04/2009 18:31:10 A lot of good idea's in this thread, and very good feedback on the changes. If I may, let me throw out one idea that I don't think has been touched on that would bring added value to a Black Ops battleship. Introduce a specialized new line of Command Modules, and allow them to only be fitted to a Black Ops Battleship. These specialized modules would be able to be used while the BO Battleship is cloaked. My recommendation would be to allow it to use all 3 of these Command Modules if desired. 1: Increases cloaked velocity. 2: Reduces cloaking delay penalty. 3: Reduces signature radius Just a rough idea, but adds value and broadens tactics available to a covert team. It would require the Black Ops to give up most of its combat capability if used with modules also fitted to act as a Covert Cyno bridge, but still requires it to be in system with the group. In most cases currently the BO Battleship is going to be sitting somewhere cloaked anyway, it might as well provide further benefit for the rest of the gang. Alternatively, if the Black Ops group is on a more conventional roam (and the Covert Cyno bridge is left at home) a fitting with even 1 of these modules incorporated would enable the BO Battleship specifically(and the covert gang in general) to have some nice tactical options. Perhaps even to the point of seeing them used more directly in combat situations than they are now, as the Command Modules would enhance its basic abilities in ways that allow it to be more survivable. On the other hand, these ideas could be shelved for now and be incorporated in a future line of Black Ops Command Ships. Just food for future thought. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.
musgrattio H A V O C Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:37:00 - [164] Fuel changes are great, but please don't start the game down a path of black ops rule everything, where we get bridgeable T3 cruisers, T3 BCs with black ops command mods, etc. Once you fix the black ops (fuel bay) give us some modules that do unique things, like disable a mobile bubble, jam an interdictor/heavy dictor's bubble launcher, disrupt dread siege modes, disable cyno jammers for short amounts of time, etc. That's all we need. Again, don't boost these much, or you'll have to nerf them later. Right now they're almost overpowered when used correctly.
Trigger Jocky Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:45:00 - [165] Originally by: Bobbeh Originally by: Ephemeron Stuff see above I agree with Ephemeron their reists are sub par for t1-t2 increases for all ships. I mean you fit the exact same tank on the tier 1 and you get several thousand more ehp than the black ops. Some Will argue the Cloak is part of your tank you only uncloak when you know you can win. But with the locking delay from uncloaking you dont get the OH **** factor you would if you could instantly start locking and with the current scan res locking is a pain anyway. The way i see these ships used is you bring a regular fleet to engage enemy defenders you slip a cov ops behind them and cyno in your blackops and force recons and sbs and camp their retreating gate with the covert gang. Some things that i think could be added are giving the Dictor the ability to use the black ops jump portal. Black ops bs's should beable to anchor something midwarp channel that sucks ships out of the channel like a bubble but ends in the middle not either end. it wouldnt keep you there and you would come out somewhere in the bubble still aligned and at 50% speed but if they had a hic or a dictor they could catch you. If not covert cloak give black ops the ability to lock while cloaked once locked they uncloak but while the ships systems are locking the ship is still cloaked like a passive targetter but built in. Inherant +1 to warp strength... i mean if they were building a behind the enemy lines covert spy bs youd think theyd put the tech from the blockade runner into it to make it harder to catch. Finally Higher sensor strentgh why is a cutting edge BS platform has less sensor strentgh that its t1 counterpart To all that said the panther is too slow agreed. ^^ this
TimMc Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.04.02 18:59:00 - [166] I vote dropping 50 torp stealth bombers into a cynojammed system and the blowing up the jammer
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.04.02 19:23:00 - [167] Here's the problem: you're fixing the wrong thing. Just fixing the fuel issues doesn't make black ops into good combat ships, it just brings us right back to the cargo expander fits: a mobile jump bridge that never engages in combat directly. Currently they're just too expensive for what they bring to the fight, so why risk them? To make them useful combat ships, you need to also fix their combat abilities, and this means three things: 1) The covert ops cloak. Learn your lesson from the stealth bomber issue, the only cloak that is useful in combat is the covert ops cloak. With the covert ops cloak, a black ops can jump in away from the fight, then get into position without broadcasting a giant "I'M HERE, RUN AWAY OR COME SHOOT ME!!!!!!" sign for everyone to see. The cloak now becomes a very useful tool, and leads to legitimate stealth tactics. On the other hand, without it, you have no stealth. To get any kind of surprise attack, you're going to have to jump directly on-grid with the target. The cloak is only useful, if ever, for hiding in a safespot and avoiding scan probes, something any random ship with a cloak can do. And here, competition with carriers kills the black ops. If you have to jump directly into the fight, why pay almost as much ISK for a ship with much lower dps, tank, and logistics? 2) Proper tank. I understand not wanting to have full T2 resists and the matching uber-tank, but black ops actually have LESS tank than the equivalent T1 ship. While increased resists (maybe not full T2) would do the job, the better approach is to just increase base HP and ensure fitting room for tank mods. This way you avoid having your expensive black ops explode in seconds, but you don't end up with the dreaded scenario of a T2 battleship permanently tanking any lesser ship. 3) Fixed bonuses. Honestly, some of these just don't make any sense. For example, the Widow's ECM bonus and missile bonuses pull in completely opposite directions. Any non-comedy setup is going to end up ignoring one of them, probably ECM. A shield resist bonus or second damage bonus would be FAR more useful, especially when you're going able to jump in dedicated ewar ships to cover that role. I will use the Redeemer as my example here, of what an ideal black ops should be: Corrupter Hull: Armageddon Role: Black Ops Following the stunning success of the Curse recon ship, Khanid Innovation was the natural choice to take over Viziam's failed Redeemer project. The Khanid engineers spared no expense with this ship, supplementing the Redeemer's terrifying laser batteries with state of the art shield and electronics systems borrowed from their Caldari contacts. Developer: Khanid Innovation The Corrupter represents somewhat of a departure from traditional Khanid designs, a difference that has led some experts to suspect a partnership with elements of the Sanshas pirate faction, rather than the Caldari State. Official sources of course deny all such rumors. Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in large energy turret capacitor use and 5% shield resistances per level Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large energy turret ROF and 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal range per level Role bonus: able to fit Covert Ops Cloak II and Covert Jump Portal I Change the slot layout to 6 mid, 5 low, increase base shield HP to 8500 (same as Rokh) and adjust fitting to allow the following setup: 6x Mega Pulse II 1x Covops Cloak 1x Jump Portal 1x 100mn MWD II 1x Heavy Cap Booster II 2x Large Shield Extender II 2x Invulnerability Field II 3x Heatsink II 1x Damage Control II 1x Power Diagnostic System II 2x Extender rigs -----------
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.04.02 19:24:00 - [168] reserved -----------
DNSBLACK Gallente Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.04.02 19:25:00 - [169] CCP Chronotis 1. Does lowering the jump fuel cost for the BO ship jumping also lower the cost for ships using the bridge? 2. If number 1 is not the case is lowering the fuel used by ships going thru the bridge one of the things being looked at. 3. Will we be getting a range increase from 4.5 to 6 or 7 So far the slow addition on SISI have been noticed. Can you do a repost on all the changes so far and what will be coming.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.04.02 20:15:00 - [170] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Alastairon Originally by: Souju not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation. Which is exactly what you can do with a well-coordinated Black Ops ship and a strike force of SBs and Recons as they are currently envisioned in the game. You can literally wage POS warfare without having to deal with the ponderousness and exposure traveling in enemy space through stargates forces you to. If you can cyno into jammed systems and take out the jammer, for example? Or their JBs? Perhaps put all their POS into reinforced and jump back out? Plenty of uses for the new Black Ops, with the rest of the CovOps as they stand currently on TQ. explain to me how you're going to take out a jump bridge/cyno jammer at a deathstar pos with 5 bombers and a recon and a widow without getting 1 shot. Do damps work? Stop, hammer time.

Vall Kor Minmatar ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:13:00 - [171] Originally by: Megan Maynard Originally by: Vina Originally by: Alastairon Originally by: Souju not really. No one camps cyno jammed systems, no one in 0.0 travels alone unless they are looking for pvp. No one pvps liek that anymore. Everyone uses jump bridge networks. Pos are far too mcuh of a safe haven and are killing the game. There needs to be a way for small gangs to directly interfere with their operation. Which is exactly what you can do with a well-coordinated Black Ops ship and a strike force of SBs and Recons as they are currently envisioned in the game. You can literally wage POS warfare without having to deal with the ponderousness and exposure traveling in enemy space through stargates forces you to. If you can cyno into jammed systems and take out the jammer, for example? Or their JBs? Perhaps put all their POS into reinforced and jump back out? Plenty of uses for the new Black Ops, with the rest of the CovOps as they stand currently on TQ. explain to me how you're going to take out a jump bridge/cyno jammer at a deathstar pos with 5 bombers and a recon and a widow without getting 1 shot. Do damps work? I'm pretty sure damps do not work against POS modules. "By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
musgrattio H A V O C Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.02 21:26:00 - [172] No they don't.... But if only they did. That would be so awesome, jump into a pos with 20 bombers, start speed tanking the medium/large guns, damp/tracking disrupt the small guns while you take out a cyno jammer...
666Devious Sinister Elite	Posted - 2009.04.02 22:08:00 - [173] Ok let me get this merin. You want to shield tank a T2 armageddon? Thats just atroshish, I hope that was a late April Fools Day joke. I want to say first the covert ops cloak is needed baddly. This truly gives the ship the ability to infiltrate enemy lines and allowing it some type of offensive capability. Increasing HP and/or resistance along with a covert ops cloak will make this ship way to over powered. To be able to out tank/gank or both a T1 B/S plus the ability to warp cloaked is way too much. I think every here agrees on one thing so far. More jump range and more fuel space. So just getting that out of the way first. Now with the covert ops cloak I feel that is all that is needed, but nothing else should be changed. I will use the redeemer as an example. This will be a fleet close range Black Ops. "I am using all level 5" http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1982/fleetredeemer.png Now for the use of covert cynosural field generators of covert jump portal generators just off line the the mwd since you cant go anywhere anyways. This is a comparison of its T1 counter part. http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5641/fleetarmageddon.png Redeemer has less tank and less gank but is granted the bonus of warping cloaked which defines the essences of "black ops" Side note: sorry I dont know much about the other black ops. The covert ops cloak and with the resizing of fuel bay you should be able to pack ammo and boosters and make the black ops the ship that it should be.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.04.02 22:24:00 - [174] Originally by: 666Devious Ok let me get this merin. You want to shield tank a T2 armageddon? Thats just atroshish, I hope that was a late April Fools Day joke. No, it was entirely serious. Not only would it be a Khanid black Armageddon (which is awesome in so many ways), but it would utterly dominate the current Redeemer. There's a very good reason the Nightmare is an awesome PvP ship, you know. Quote: Increasing HP and/or resistance along with a covert ops cloak will make this ship way to over powered. To be able to out tank/gank or both a T1 B/S plus the ability to warp cloaked is way too much. Have you checked the costs lately? The changes I proposed make black ops worth taking into a fight directly (as opposed to just sitting safespotted as a mobile jump bridge), but not so effective that they can't be killed by T1 ships. A pair of T1 battleships or a T1 battleship with a support ship or two would easily kill them. Quote: http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1982/fleetredeemer.png Now for the use of covert cynosural field generators of covert jump portal generators just off line the the mwd since you cant go anywhere anyways. Err, lol? Full active tank on a fleet ship? Trimarks with no plates? Conflag on, well, anything? And no, you can't just offline the MWD, since, assuming you're using the ship in combat instead of just as a cargo expanded jump bridge, onlining the bridge will kill your cap and leave you unable to bring the MWD back online when it's time to jump in. Quote: http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5641/fleetarmageddon.png Err, really lol? A cruiser MWD on a battleship? Here is a non-comedy fleet Armageddon setup: [Armageddon, gank] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency L [empty high slot] Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 Good luck getting anything even remotely close to that with a Redeemer. -----------
666Devious Sinister Elite	Posted - 2009.04.02 23:00:00 - [175] errm, my bad on the cruiser mwd. I had all my fits on my old computer and i had to throw some fits together while i was alt tabbed trying to respond to this thread. But to get your cap back up you use some boosters if need be. getting to the nightmare, making a ship comparable to the nightmare that can also warp cloaked is over kill by far. I hate to say this since i love my nightmare very very much, but i feel a nighmare nerf coming soon. All in all if u wanted a b/s that you fly right into comabt for black ops cost then get a paladin, but in the mean time the ability to warp cloaked has to come with a price.
RyMcQeN I Caldari Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.02 23:09:00 - [176] It sure would be nice if DEV posts got prioritized to the beginning of the thread, regardless of when it was posted. That way we wouldn't have to hunt through the pointless posts made by people making outrageous requests. Thank you CCP Chronotis for your prompt updates on this topic.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2009.04.02 23:25:00 - [177] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: 666Devious Ok let me get this merin. You want to shield tank a T2 armageddon? Thats just atroshish, I hope that was a late April Fools Day joke. No, it was entirely serious. Not only would it be a Khanid black Armageddon (which is awesome in so many ways), but it would utterly dominate the current Redeemer. There's a very good reason the Nightmare is an awesome PvP ship, you know. You forgot that now days khanis ships are not shield tanked but armor tanked unguided missile (rockets, heavy assualt and should be for BSs torps) boats so what you should really be designing is an armor tanked torp geddon. However tbh i dont think black ops should be able to out DPS and tank their T1 counterparts definitely just like the force recons however i do think they should be able to pick their fights and that means warping into places cloaked. The covert ops cloak is a must to make them truely viable. Also anyone who comes up with setups which do silly overloaded DPS to argue against cov ops cloak should then be taking their T1 versions and seeing what DPS you can produce on those (the exception will be the widow obviously)
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.02 23:42:00 - [178] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 02/04/2009 23:41:59 3 points: 1: Black Ops ships should be useful and varied, with unique roles in game, not overpowered. 2: People that argue that a stealth/covert ops ship cannot live up to its name without a Covert Ops cloak are the same people who don't know how to fly those ships. There are times where a Covert Ops cloak is the correct choice for a vessel design, and there are times when it is a game-breakingly bad idea to go that route. 3: As a general rule, any ship that can use a Covert Ops cloak must be either weak in damage, or a glass cannon, or both with some other useful trait. Any deviation from this will result in EVE: Covert Ops Online. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.03 00:06:00 - [179] Originally by: 666Devious Now with the covert ops cloak I feel that is all that is needed, but nothing else should be changed. I will use the redeemer as an example. This will be a fleet close range Black Ops. "I am using all level 5" http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5641/fleetarmageddon.png Redeemer has less tank and less gank but is granted the bonus of warping cloaked which defines the essences of "black ops" The covert ops cloak and with the resizing of fuel bay you should be able to pack ammo and boosters and make the black ops the ship that it should be. You are completely misunderstanding the term Black Ops. The ability to conduct operations behind enemy lines is NOT contingent on the ability to warp cloaked. If not for local, a black ops is quite capable of moving unseen with a covert cynonig cov ops along for the ride. CCP is already talking about allowing Black Ops to bypass cyno-jammers (probably the number 1 problem), lowering fuel costs and adding a fuel bay. The ship doesn't need a cov ops cloak, in fact it is less useful in 90% of situtations. I honestly wonder if the people who cry for covert ops cloaks even fly these ships. The cloak is not the problem.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.04.03 00:23:00 - [180] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: MuffinsRevenger How about allowing covert op cyno fields to be lit in highsec? That way, apart from sneekyness enamblers in lowsec, they could be used to be a part of trade chains using blockade runners It is a nice possibility but would have to be carefully tested to ensure there are no possible exploits. Yeh, welcome to no-risk eve? Atm the only way to catch blockade runner is on 0.0 gate (thx to bubbles) because its virtually impossible to catch cloaker in low or hisec. So lets add em ability to completly negate any danger altogether... Maybe just add "GM MOVEME" command to transports? Easier to implement imo and same results... Seriously you need to rethink "risk vs reward" options in this game. Moving in and out (and around) 0.0 should NOT be risk-free. ATM its carebear land with jump bridges, cyno jammers which negates most of fast-strike abilities for "hostiles". Adding another safe way of travel to already overabundant safety measures in 0.0 makes travel much easier than undocking in Jita (here you can at least get blackscreen and get instapopped).

Gin Doom	Posted - 2009.04.03 01:37:00 - [181] imo anything that has an offensive role and can cloak should be able to uncloak and at least target quickly. After messing around with a few fits for a sin I figured it wasnt worth it to pay so high a price for something that doesnt feel t2. Compare, any t1 , a lach to a celestis, or arbi to a curse. One can clearly see there is a step up from the t1. The Sin , basicly adds one more BS in the field that has a cloak on it so targeting is slow as ****. Agility bonus is about close to worthless in a armor tank as you can get, least in this example. fix the targeting to something superior and if you want agility bonus for whatever reason then boost rep amout or resists so you dont need buffer tank. Warping cloaked makes more sense to me though along with all around superior firepower/tank as it should own a t1 version. 0.0 is nice and all but these need to be options for high sec , low and null. Someday maybe I'll see one fly around but for now its a novelty ship. thanks for your time.
Javelin6 Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.04.03 02:53:00 - [182] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hey Folks, we will be testing some additional changes on sisi over the weekend. The jump fuel base cost has been reduced from 400 to 300 isotopes lowering your isotope use a little while jumping. A small change but nonetheless a good one. It is a good change however, the GREAT change would be Covert Jump Portal fuel consumption rates. Jumping the Black-ops itself was never an issue as the cargo bay was plenty large enough for that. The issue is the HUGE amount of fuel needed to bridge recons.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 03:01:00 - [183] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Covert ops cloak for black ops There is pros and cons to this, we can definitely see why it would be good and deserved however in combination with the other abilities of the ship would probably make it far too powerful though nothing is set in stone here. Please tell me that CCP realizes that there are only ~3 known corporations who actively PVP with Blackops on a regular basis (i'm sure most corps have atleast 1 member who owns a blackops ship and some may even pvp with them, but that's not what i'm talking about), and that two of those corps (Burn Eden and No Trademark) have both said NO to Covert Ops cloak if it means nerfing anything else on the ship. Paging Glen Quagmire's Finishing School for Young Ladies (the third BOs Corp) for the hat trick. Dirt Nap Associates as well as others i'm sure utilize the Covert Bridging aspect of blackops but BOs used solely for that is pretty much irrelevant to the debate. The only "pro" to adding Cov Ops cloak is that it's a cloak with 0 CPU and no scan res penalty, and for that reason alone I'd fit one (it certainly wouldn't be to warp around cloaked, hi it's got a jump drive, it doesn't need to warp to get places), and I'd support adding the Cov Ops cloak only if nothing else with the ship is nerfed, which clearly would be an overpowered combination and would require nerfing the ship into uselessville, thus I oppose even considering adding it. The only reason blackops would need Cov Ops cloak is because either CCP gutted the ship line by removing the jump drive, or random forum theorycrafter #2815602, who's never even flown a blackops much less owns one, doubt they even have them trained tbh, whining about BO's needing them so they can run around solo trying to kill ratters (who all can warp out before a solo blackops could even tackle them) however with the necessary nerfs to the ship line to justify the Cov Ops cloak, will instead lose their newly nerfed 700mil+fitting's ~HAC level Blackop ships to t1 fit ravens instead. I urge you, please consider the testimony of experienced Blackops pilots and ignore the theorycrafters. There's one thing that majorities all have in common and that is that the majority of any group of people are idiots and their opinions should be dismissed as such. If you do destroy the ship class by adding the cov ops cloak and nerfing their other stats, once the dust settles and the legions of whiners learn how idiotic their whining was, the only people who would actually benefit from nerfing the ship/adding the cov ops cloak is going to be the legions of Macro ISK farmers out in empty 0.0 systems. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.04.03 03:17:00 - [184] Originally by: Rajere Please tell me that CCP realizes that there are only ~3 known corporations who actively PVP with Blackops on a regular basis Hint to the clueless: there's a reason only three corps are stubborn enough to try and PvP with black ops in their current state: *black ops suck. Without the covops cloak, a carrier does everything a black ops can do, does it vastly better, does things the black ops can't* do, and all for only a little more ISK once insurance is considered. The only thing adding a fuel bay is going to change is instead of a complete waste of ISK, black ops will have a very narrow role as a cargo-expanded mobile jump bridge. Without the covops cloak, just make them a T2 industrial with a jump bridge. They'll be far more useful ships that way. -----------
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 03:40:00 - [185] Originally by: Potrero Huh? We're talking Black Ops here, right? 12 jumps? How? Pop a CNR in 30 seconds? With a Panther? Again how? And how would they ever find such a target anyway. Any sane CNR pilot would see the hostile covert cyno-ship in local and cloak up. Sounds like you're flying a different ship than I am. 1. 12 jumps on average, for now. The ships are currently only viable in NPC 0.0/Low Sec due to Cynojammers, and space is clustered together tighter the closer you are to empire. 2. How about a http://notr.darkfrontier.com/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18931Panther and a Sin? Combined they equal 1 Redeemer :) You ignored my example which explicitly mentioned 3-5 blackops, but even with just 2, ~30 seconds or less. With 3-5 blackops any sub-capital ship dies in <60 seconds. 3 Blackops can kill a Jump Freighter in 2 minutes. 3. Carebears who warp to a safe and cloak every time any neutral enters local are unkillable, true. They're also horribly inefficient at making any ISK ratting/missioning in any reasonably traveled space if they warp out the instant they see +1 local. The thing about Covert Cyno ships is they fit Covert Ops cloaks (and lol Stealth Bomber) thus they warp cloaked, so their's no way to know if the new neutral is an ibis or a Cov Op Cyno fit Recon. For a 3-5man Blackops gang you'll have 2-3 recons + possibly a Cov Ops for probing (don't really need the cov ops anymore since the probing changes) roaming around independently, scouring the area for targets. Quote: Not nearly as effectively as a covops cloak will allow Completely Wrong. Blackops are so good at dictating engagements they aren't even in the systems where these engagements may occur, thus not even potentially putting their ships at risk. In fact, usually they're just sitting undocked on a station drinking mojitos waiting for the Covert Ops Frigates and Force Recon cruisers (both of which far superior than a blackops with a covert ops cloak would be, by an order of magnitude) to evade the hostiles/gate camps, scout the systems, find/probe the targets, warp to them, maneuver into range, and then tackle them, before they even light the covert cyno. And even at this point the blackops still have the option to simply not jump if scouting/intel failed completely, it was a trap, local floods, etc. Even if they already jumped, unless there was a cloaked dictor on the field with the bait who managed to bubble the blackops on jump in, they still have the option to GTFO in 4 seconds, 3.99s of which is spent cloaked thus untargetable. If they did get bubbled, they're still burning away from the bubble, cloaked, and have a decent possibility of escaping, though it's not guranteed. cont~ -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 04:24:00 - [186] Quote: That really is rather idealized; not to mention fuel req's, the number of accounts/player required, coordination and the isk requirements to setup something like that. Exactly how much fuel are you carrying/ how many jumps are you capable of? The specifics of the BO portal/covert cyno arent familiar to me. If you're the only blackops pilot in your corp then sure, but otherwise, that's not idealized at all, that's exactly how it works. We're talking 5-10man gangs here, couple of recons as scouts/tacklers and the rest of the gang are blackops, or possibly blackops+recons/stealth bombers if one of the blackops is cargo expander fit used solely for bridging. Accounts/Player required is interesting to bring up, since it meshes very well with existing Main/Alt trends. You have your main who if he flies blackops is also probably a capital pilot, and you have an alt who is probably trained for stuff like probing, tackling, whatever and usually can fly Cov Ops if not Recon (ie falcon) already. It's common that each Black Ops pilot who has an alt acct will train that alt for Recons/Covert Cyno if he hasn't already, thus the number of tacklers/scouts/support can easily be equivalent to the number of Blackops you're fielding, assuming everyone has an alt in fleet. Until the fuel bay goes in, we get by with caches of jump fuel spread around various NPC stations in constellations we frequently visit. Nowadays it's usually 1 jump to the target, gank it, 1 jump back since as soon as the locals see us active (killed 1 ship) that whole constellation/half a region will dock and logoff :( Bridging basically works the same, you just need alot more fuel stored in your caches. Bridging BOs never actually jump into engagements directly, they'll open the bridge on the initial covert cyno to bridge the recons over, then after the fight a recon simply pops a covert cyno at one of the stations you have fuel cached in. The only reason we don't sit around ganking ship after ship after ship is that the large, isk rich carebear groups have all died out/vanished and the groups who are still around know better by now. If we could be arsed to become a mobile corp/move around all the time we could do this non-stop, pick a region, blackops it until the carebears have no more tears/ships to lose, then move to another, eventually ending up back at where we started and repeating the process. Quote: Something else to consider: Covops cloaks and warping cloaked is a mighty benefit, instead of sitting in a safespot relying on a scanner or on a covops or on another BO your BO are now warping off gate or belt and carefully positioning themselves for the kill. You're only ever sitting at a safe after you've killed stuff. As a blackops cloaked up at a safe you can just afk. Anything you think you'd want your BO to be able to do (ie stuff like warping around/positioning because he would be able to warp cloaked) you don't need or want your BO to do, your cyno ships take care of all of that and they're waaay better at it than BOs would be. After fights, your BOs are just sitting in space somewhere, until one of your scouts has found something. Mainly because you don't want your BOs to be in local of where your going to engage next (having your gang in local pretty much defeats the purpose of using BOs), but also because Adding a Cov Ops cloak to a BS hull does not a scout/defense camp evader make, it really wouldn't be a viable platform for what you are describing. In low sec, BOs are pretty much invincible when traveling so they can move from point a to point b using gates like everyone else (but only really for convenience/getting in Jump Range to cyno), but in 0.0 and for moving from where you are to where the engagement is, you using your jump drive. The only time you ever use your warp drive is after a fight, not before it, so being able to warp cloaked is pretty irrelevant. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
SATAN BURN EDEN Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.03 05:19:00 - [187] Black ops need the following and nothing else. 1)Larger fuel bay or reduced fuel use prefer the later. 2)Longer jump range right now its a bit short especially is spread out regions. 3)Jump into cyno jammed systems. 4)More DPS, since these ships are meant to jump in and kill fast, they need the tools to do so without bringing a blob of them. Give them the ability to do 50% more damage, and its all good. My wish list would be that they not appear in local chat.
Admiral Khaztina	Posted - 2009.04.03 05:23:00 - [188] Originally by: Lilla Kharn Bridge to cyno towers like titans can. It doesn't make sense how we can jump to towers but yet we cant bridge to them. Just an idea /signed. Not having this doesn't make any sense whatsoever and at least for logistics it makes everything that much easier. Seeing as only two classes of ships can use a jump portal, why can't we both bridge to towers?
Mirei Jun Right to Rule FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.04.03 05:55:00 - [189] Looking at the changes to Black Ops and Stealth Bombers together gives way to some very potent combinations. One might almost say too potent. I really hope you take a good, hard look and the cyclic system of cloaking, local, and scanning at some point. While I like the proposed changes, they will make cloaking even more powerful and unstoppable then it often is already.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:03:00 - [190] Blackops should never ever be allowed to use covert cloaks, OR they can have the cloak but have a 15-20 second targeting delay after decloaking. If they don't and get a cloak they will become uber recons, which is far too powerful. Giving them a range bonus would make them into 200km+ snipers, adding the fact that they can cloak with ease means they will be uncatchable almost, so that's no good either. I'd be all for them to actually be able (and have to) mix into the normal fights, give them an increased tank over their T1 counterparts (but not like a T2 BS ofcourse) and allow them to fit stuff properly. THEN you'll see blackops actually in fights rather than being used as a logistics only. So; - increased jump range - lowered fuel costs for jumping/bridging - increased tank - increased cpu/pg The ability to jump into a cynojammed system is fantastic and logical at the same time, so that's nice. Self-proclaimed idiot

Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:16:00 - [191] Some of my friends asked me "The widow can warp cloaked right ?" And i said -No Then they said "Woow, then it must suck ! , i would never train for one" Common sense indicates that Black ops cloaking should be no different than force recons have.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:23:00 - [192] Originally by: Overbrain Some of my friends asked me "The widow can warp cloaked right ?" And i said -No Then they said "Woow, then it must suck ! , i would never train for one" Common sense indicates that Black ops cloaking should be no different than force recons have. Some of my friends told me they watch X factor, big brother and voted for Bush. The fact that they say something doesn't mean they should be listened to. Self-proclaimed idiot
Marius Nervosu Caldari The Fallen Angels Unit Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:29:00 - [193] Increased jump range, Lowered fuel costs for jumping/bridging (jump in cynojammed system), covert ops clocking...this are the most important ones :)
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:37:00 - [194] It was a simple summary of at least 50 people i have talked to who canceled their blackops trainings just because blackops were not able to fly warp cloaked. And the one's who trained blackops dont even undock with it. Of course , if the blackops had covert ops cloaking, then many* people would train it and then we would have blackops online. Except you are missing one very tiny little detail , nobody can solo with these ships and they are very easy to kill . They lock slow , they would still lock as slow as they are atm if ccp decided to have give them CC. Also they are slumbering slow boats and with battlecruiser specs , only costing 20x more ! With no insurance. So what would you have ? Only a very few handful of people would fly them , because the rest would still either reject to undock or die horibly losing a fortune and not being able to field any other for months. There is your balance. The ship is already very weak/slow/dumb .
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:44:00 - [195] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Hey Folks, we will be testing some additional changes on sisi over the weekend. The jump fuel base cost has been reduced from 400 to 300 isotopes lowering your isotope use a little while jumping. A small change but nonetheless a good one. Good change, thank you. If you could also consider a slight reduction in jump portal fuel usage, that would rock. Currently, the fuel cost of bridging even one recon over a very short distance is utterly ridiculous, and kills the use of jump portals in a lot of scenarios. As someone said, the real problem was never the jump fuel cost for the ship itself (though reducing that a bit is very welcome), it's the huge cost of the jump portal. Bridging three recons over just one (!) light year eats up all the fuel in a Sin's cargo bay, for instance (leaving the ship itself no fuel to jump). And that's only one light year, which is a tiny distance.
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:45:00 - [196] The covert op cloak is not needed, at all. It's not meant to be a solo pwn-boat, and will be too powerful. -1 recon with covert cyno, damps and 50k point (Arazu) -1 BR, with fuel -1 BO -x amount of SB/BO/recons for DPS. This all you need to have some awesome fun. I'd like to see an increase of jumprange, more then anything else, since the rest is easily to counter with the current state on SiSi. ---- [PXIN Recruiter] PXIN Recruitement thread
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:47:00 - [197] Another issue is the relative power level of the ships. At the moment, one Redeemer is about equal to about one Sin plus one Panther. The ability of the Redeemer to jump in and apply good ranged dps on a target at once is huge, and something Sin and Panther can't hope to match currently -- and those ships don't have any real advantages that they would bring to the table, either. I think Redeemer is at the correct power level as such, but both the Sin and Panther need a bit of love, methinks. Not sure about the Widow.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 08:59:00 - [198] Originally by: Overbrain It was a simple summary of at least 50 people i have talked to who canceled their blackops trainings just because blackops were not able to fly warp cloaked. And the one's who trained blackops dont even undock with it. Proof that your friends are idiots. Why would they even start Black Ops training, it's never been able to fit a Covert Ops Cloak, not even implied. Quote: Of course , if the blackops had covert ops cloaking, then many idiots would train it and then immediately lose them faster than Siigari loses ships. Fixed this for you. Quote: Except you are missing one very tiny little detail , nobody can solo with these ships and they are very easy to kill . A ship designed specifically to be used in gangs, at the very least in conjunction with another ship utilizing a Covert Cyno. And you thought it was a solo ship, why? PS they're pretty hard ships to kill, only ones we've lost have been to pilot error/rookie mistakes, or jumping into crazy scenarios we had no business jumping them into. Quote: They lock slow , they would still lock as slow as they are atm if ccp decided to have give them CC. Also they are slumbering slow boats and with battlecruiser specs , only costing 20x more ! With no insurance. Every single statement here is false. If they gave COC or simply a bonus reducing the scan res penalty from improved cloaks to 0%, then BOs would lock faster than they do now, which is already faster than their T1 BS counterparts. Their specs are already above Command Ships, very close to BS, thus well above BCs. PS Blackops don't really need to move all that much really, if you move after cynoing in you lose your ability to GTFO super quickly, unless you moved by aligning towards the object you'll be warping to. Quote: So what would you have ? Only a very few handful of people would fly them , because the rest would still either reject to undock or die horibly losing a fortune and not being able to field any other for months. There is your balance. um ok, great? I'm happy that only a few handful of people fly them, not particularly interested in seeing a bunch of r-tards going out and failboating with them. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:15:00 - [199] Edited by: Overbrain on 03/04/2009 09:17:10 I sense anger and totaly flawed will to find something wrong in my arguments . But what i see is total fail lol. When i said , if ccp have gave them COC and they would still have slow lock time . Lets see , pump some more blood into your brain and then you will understand. IF* they had COC, then ccp would give them scan res penalty on top* of that . Get it ? These people just cant understand one thing . I see this everywhere. When you ask for a ship to gain an ability, you dont necessarily mean that the ship should gain that ability without losing anything in return or be subject to balance. We ask for COC on Blackops because the ship's name and the overall need for "covert operations" in eve , "calls" for it . Eve needed a stronger/slower force recon which could penetrate deep into so called safe* zones in 0.0 . And we got it, well not quite . Ever wondered why blackops required level(4) cloaking skill ? Which is the same requirement for COC . NOW you are thinking.. Edit: typos
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:22:00 - [200] You're backpedaling. IF you want to comment on changes like you do and somehow 'in your mind' change other stats to complement/offset your own changes, then you should have probably mentioned those. Rather than pointing at others for not being able to read minds. Self-proclaimed idiot

Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:27:00 - [201] Not quite, im merely reminding the hundreds of posts that were spoken before and after blackops came out . What is obvious in those words need not to be explained in detail in favor of a "new guy" who is just finding more about blackops.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:35:00 - [202] After my discussion with Tzeer i sat down and thought about it for a bit and i personally think the discussion boils down to two questions.: What does CCP want the ship to do? -Close quarter fighter -Mid range gang-support -etc etc How does the BO fulfill it`s role? Currently the BO exists in the close quarter fighter role and nothing implies this is going to change. In this role i still think the ship has ill defined bonuses that realte poorly to the ship stats. I said it before to objections from both rajere and Tzeer- BO doesn`t need the speed bonus at all. -and i find it strange that tzeer and rajere disagree to this, because you yourselves don`t even use the speed bonus. case: BO is hotdropped to combat spot. Kills it`s target and warps off. It doesn`t use gates and it doesn`t move cloaked on the grid like the SB- it jumps in, kills and warps off. It`s bonuses should reflect this. This is why i say it has stealth bomber stats on a close quarter fighter. Rather than a speed bonus- it should have bonuses that improves it`s role performance like AGILITY bonus to let it warp out faster. Maybe even a ECM BURST bonus to help it get out more easilly. The speed bonus would only be tactically usefull, if it was bigger, if the BO used covert ops cloaks and were used as solo tools to hunt ratters and mission runners. I would enjoy such a ship as i fly solo alot, but CCP do not advocate solo gameplay, so i would not expect to see the BO in such a role. For it`s current use as system jumping mugger, it has no need for the speed bonus. There are other bonuses that would be more usefull. This obviously comes in addition to scan res, fuel bay, jump range changes that should be made.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:43:00 - [203] Originally by: Overbrain Edited by: Overbrain on 03/04/2009 09:17:10 I sense anger and totaly flawed will to find something wrong in my arguments . But what i see is total fail lol. When i said , if ccp have gave them COC and they would still have slow lock time . Lets see , pump some more blood into your brain and then you will understand. IF* they had COC, then ccp would give them scan res penalty on top* of that . Get it ? These people just cant understand one thing . I see this everywhere. When you ask for a ship to gain an ability, you dont necessarily mean that the ship should gain that ability without losing anything in return or be subject to balance. We ask for COC on Blackops because the ship's name and the overall need for "covert operations" in eve , "calls" for it . Eve needed a stronger/slower force recon which could penetrate deep into so called safe* zones in 0.0 . And we got it, well not quite . Ever wondered why blackops required level(4) cloaking skill ? Which is the same requirement for COC . NOW you are thinking.. Edit: typos Wow, lol. I realize english isn't your first language so i'm not laughing at that, i'm laughing at how completely inaccurate everything you just said was, you managed to be totally off base in every single one of your statements. You do realize that the Scan Resolution Penalty is a function of the actual Cloaking Module itself, and not the ship, right? Are you saying that CCP will create a special BO only Covert Ops Cloaking device and add a Scan Res Penalty to it? Why not just nerf the base scan res of the ships, it would accomplish the same thing? Oh wait, didn't they just boosted the base scan resolutions to partially compensate for the penalty on the Cloak Module? You and everyone else who asked for a COC on blackops did so because you're terrible at this game, and lack even the most elementary concept of how stuff works. You really haven't got a clue, and would use a COC fitted Blackops to try and run around solo, going after ratters in belts, except you'd fail to tackle anything before they could warp off, and then of course you'd lose your COC fitted Blackops in the very first bubble gatecamp you jumped into, which just so happens would be the very next system you jumped into as the locals have already easily identified you and your lack of pvp prowess from your previous attempt to gank t1 fit ratting ravens. You think Eve needs a stronger/slower Force Recon? Even if it did, what on earth makes you think that Black Ops are supposed to fill that role? is it the diametrically opposed ship design? The fact that they have completely different, yet synergetic pvp roles? Or that they have so much in common, oh wait, absolutely nothing in common with one another? Do you even play eve or are you just trolling me? srs post -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.04.03 10:15:00 - [204] No-one's trolling you. Its because of posts like this that people try to ignore everything you say in Black Ops threads. Just saying 'OMG YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY' doesn't mean your right, or that you win the argument. All it does it make you sound like your a kid. If you have reasons why you're right: Post them.
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.03 10:16:00 - [205] Originally by: Overbrain IF* they had COC, then ccp would give them scan res penalty on top* of that . Get it ? Edit: typos First part of sentence: "IF* they had COC" Second part of sentence: " then ccp would give -->them<--" So "them" in the second sentence points to "they" in the first sentence, which is the ship itself , not the COC . Oh my god , are you still going to elementary school or what. Study your lessons my son , learn to read.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.04.03 10:31:00 - [206] These arguments are in circles. I'm tired of reading through 7 pages of "but this" and "but that" and "it's fine" and "covops cloak" and all this crap. How about we make a BLACK OPS cloak? It allows you to cloak and warp whislst cloaked, but has a 5km uncloak penalty or summat. Cloaking and warping would make the black ops ships FUN. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.quafeultra.com
Neddy Fox Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.04.03 10:33:00 - [207] Cmon guys, stop the flames, no need for that. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. The reason way COC nay-sayers state this is : You don't NEED the COC ! You don't need to evade gate-camps with it, since you never meet them ! Your recon/covop pilot does the hard work, and pops up an invisible cyno far away from the camp. A BO does NOT have to warp cloaked, since it doesn't have to fly places. BtW, don't touch my Sin dronebay :P I have VERY good skills in drones, and a T2 sentry Sin is just what I like to fly ! I'd like to have 1-2 more low slots to match the Domi, but that's all. ---- [PXIN Recruiter] PXIN Recruitement thread
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:12:00 - [208] Originally by: Baudolino I said it before to objections from both rajere and Tzeer- BO doesn`t need the speed bonus at all. -and i find it strange that you disagree to this, because you yourselves don`t even use the speed bonus. The stealth bomber "speed bonus" has nothing to do with your speed, not for blackops and for SB really only because they lacked COC or a Jump Drive thus they don't have a choice in how they get in position on grid other than slowboating there cloaked. What it does do is allow you to align while cloaked and then warp instantly after you decloak, but there's more to it than that. At level 4+ BO skill the bonus speed puts you above your base speed, ~50m/s faster base speed cloaked vs uncloaked (~90m/s at lvl 5), but really 175 m/s vs ~130 makes absolutely no difference if you were relying on that to try and move around cloaked on grid. Even SBs only get a minor overall speed bonus from it (about 80m/s faster at Cov Ops IV, ~170m/s faster at Cov Ops V, 330ish vs 500ish m/s is nothing when you've gotta fly 50-100km cloaked). The true benefit of this bonus, especially for a BS, is manipulating your max speed and it's implications with TTW (time to warp). Ships need 75% of their max velocity to enter warp. Ship acceleration is based on an exponential curve where the time it takes you to add each additional % of your max speed takes long and longer to achieve the closer you are to max speed, factoring in your agility/etc. For example, say you gain ~35% of your speed in the first second or so, another 20% or so in the next couple of seconds, then 10% more in the next 3-4 seconds, etc etc (not precise %s, just guesstimates for example). BOs/SBs can use their cloaks to instantly increase their max speed, which increases their raw m/s of speed gained per second of acceleration, because the speed gained per second is based on %. When BOs/SBs decloak they instantly reduce their max speed back to normal. 75% of ~130m/s (most BO's base speed) is ~98m/s, which is only ~55% of your cloaked velocity at BO IV (45% of your cloaked velocity @ BO V), which means BO's TTW effectively can be reached at only 45-55% of their max velocity instead of 75%. Or in other words, it takes a BO 8 seconds to enter warp normally, but only 4 seconds if you simply hit align + cloak, wait a few seconds until your actual speed is > 75% of your base max speed (~98m/s for most), then decloak + warp. This is somewhat similar to the MWD/cloak trick that pretty much any ship is capable of using as long as they fit an Improved Cloak + MWD (25% of 6x your base max velocity is > 75% of your base max velocity). The main difference is the MWD/cloak trick requires an agonizing 10 second cycle of the MWD to work, and slower ships like BS can be decloaked by fast ships during that 10 second window which causes the trick to fail and typically results in the battleship getting tackled and killed. Also without the bonus, the T2 battleship designed to fit a cloak would pretty much be crippled to ~39m/s speed anytime they actually used their cloak. It's not so much a benefit as not having the bonus would be a nuisance. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:21:00 - [209] Originally by: Tzar'rim I'd be all for them to actually be able (and have to) mix into the normal fights, give them an increased tank over their T1 counterparts (but not like a T2 BS ofcourse) and allow them to fit stuff properly. THEN you'll see blackops actually in fights rather than being used as a logistics only. S What? Since when Marauders have good tank? Its pathetic for the ship class! T2 BS should ALL marauders and BO have same resists as a Recon ship. CCP made a HUGE screw up with BOTH black ops and marauders.. the most anticipated EVER ships on eve , t2 BS were added as completely worthless pieces of crap for any PVP (AND this is a PVP game.. pve does not matter when a raven can already do anything!!!) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Jomanda Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:24:00 - [210] As someone who does use the Black Ops in combat, I would have to agree that a COC will not add to the role of a BO as much as the other mentioned changes would do, namely: Originally by: SATAN 1)Larger fuel bay or reduced fuel use prefer the later. 2)Longer jump range right now its a bit short especially is spread out regions. 3)Jump into cyno jammed systems. Originally by: Rajere The Panther needs it's velocity bonus converted into a 3rd turret bonus. The Sin needs to stop being a dominix hull drone ship and start being a megathron hull blaster ship, losing the drone bonus, agility bonus, and the pg/cpu/slots it inherited from the domi and becoming a modified megathron blackops with 7-5-7 slot layout, with 5 or possibly even 6 turrets and 3 turret bonuses. I also fully agree with this statement, as it would emphasize the close quarter combat that BO's are typically used. The notion of BO's being used to attack cyno jammers is not realistic in my opinion. They are simply too expensive and the risks are far too great for that. The way I see BO ships (in combination with its force recon / SB support) is guerrila warfare, preying on lone travellers, careless ratters and such.

Mafaka	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:29:00 - [211] Edited by: Mafaka on 03/04/2009 11:29:08 come on people ! role of this ship ? right now is very unclear why on earth people would get one of this ships. simply because u can just put t2 cloaking device and move a little bit slower then BO so what the point in training for a year for it ? none it does not have no dmg nor ability to warp cloaked not even ECM bonus ( amarr version) it does not have the tank , it does not have the resist , it does not have anything right now worth looking into ( total fail) for some reason all the good ideas went into force recon cruisers. things that are needed 1) COC , simply because u spent 4 times more time training and u cant warp cloaked - what a joke 2) whats up with jump range? 2LY ? come on - too unrealistic - smaller engine should move much smaller mass further away for less fuel ( 50 - not 300) - jump range of 10 LY would be good enough 3) i dont need no tank no extra dmg , no extra resistance - BO should get something like + 2 warp strength as role bonus - simply becasue they not made for combat ( not direct ) 4)and jump portal bridge - ability to link it to enemies cyno fields
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:39:00 - [212] Edited by: Rajere on 03/04/2009 11:40:15 Originally by: Overbrain IF* they had COC, then ccp would give them scan res penalty on top* of that . Get it ? Edit: typos First part of sentence: "IF* they had COC" Second part of sentence: " then ccp would give -->them<--" So "them" in the second sentence points to "they" in the first sentence, which is the ship itself , not the COC . Oh my god , are you still going to elementary school or what. Study your lessons my son , learn to read. Yeah I knew what you meant by them, I just didn't realize you were this dense. So basically you're argument is that if CCP gave COC to blackops, they would implement the scan res penalty of the standard cloaks onto the base ship instead simply out of spite, which means they would effectively remove the scan res buff currently on SiSi, resulting in scan res equal to what's currently on tranquility, except you'd replace your standard cloak with its 35-40% Scan Res penalty with a COC with 0% scan res penalty, which means you're scan res/lock time's would improve by 35-40% over what they are currently. Study your lessons my son, learn to read+write+logic -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.03 11:43:00 - [213] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 03/04/2009 11:40:15 Originally by: Overbrain IF* they had COC, then ccp would give them scan res penalty on top* of that . Get it ? Edit: typos First part of sentence: "IF* they had COC" Second part of sentence: " then ccp would give -->them<--" So "them" in the second sentence points to "they" in the first sentence, which is the ship itself , not the COC . Oh my god , are you still going to elementary school or what. Study your lessons my son , learn to read. Yeah I knew what you meant by them, I just didn't realize you were this dense. So basically you're argument is that if CCP gave COC to blackops, they would implement the scan res penalty of the standard cloaks onto the base ship instead simply out of spite, which means they would effectively remove the scan res buff currently on SiSi, resulting in scan res equal to what's currently on tranquility, except you'd replace your standard cloak with its 35-40% Scan Res penalty with a COC with 0% scan res penalty, which means you're scan res/lock time's would improve by 35-40% over what they are currently. Study your lessons my son, learn to read+write+logic you know, english is not the first language of everyone.. for some is not even the second.. Just by example its my 4th.... so do not insult people because they don have perfect english skills, since very likely you do not have perfect skill son all the languages the people on this forums are able to speak. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:00:00 - [214] The jump range of Black Ops should be the same of dreadnoughts at least. This way, a Black Ops could fly with a capital fleet while a carrier could transport some recons/bombers. ________________________________________ [img]http://www.atlas-alliance.com/killboard-new/sig.php/4652/alliancerank/signature.jpg[/img
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:06:00 - [215] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 03/04/2009 11:23:17 Originally by: Baudolino I said it before to objections from both rajere and Tzeer- BO doesn`t need the speed bonus at all. -and i find it strange that you disagree to this, because you yourselves don`t even use the speed bonus. The stealth bomber "speed bonus" has nothing to do with your speed, not for blackops and for SB really only because they lacked COC or a Jump Drive thus they don't have a choice in how they get in position on grid other than slowboating there cloaked. What it does do is allow you to align while cloaked and then warp instantly after you decloak, but there's more to it than that. (some text has been removed) Also without the bonus, the T2 battleship designed to fit a cloak would pretty much be crippled to ~39m/s speed anytime they actually used their cloak. The actual speed is not so much a benefit as not having the bonus would be a nuisance, but as a whole the "cloaked speed bonus" is very useful for BOs. It allows for near invincibility while traveling in low sec, and gives BOs an "evac" option if they cyno into a trap. All this i already know.. You say a couple of things here: 1. Speed bonus is usefull for travelling in low-sec -On the other hand, you have said yourself countless times that BO has no use for stargates and i agree with this, it`s stupid to move through gates when you have jump drive that can move you multiple systems at a time. BOs do not need speed for travel, they need speed in the combat zone. 2. Cloak+speed bonus gives evac option -We can`t cloak after being targeted and we can`t cloak while engaged by drones. Even if targets are jammed and killed- you can`t cloak after the engagement if you are still targeted by drones. -Moreover.. there are other bonuses that would be much more beneficial in an evac phase- like agility and ecm burst bonuses or some other bonus i`ve not considered. My case isn`t that the functions you mention aren`t usefull, but that OTHER bonuses would be more usefull on the BO- especially considering that the BO is atm looking at a close quarter combat role. Even if you jump right into a trap, setting a BO specific trap is unlikely and BOs that hotdrop on target will have 30+ sec to realign and move out if winds suddenly change. There is no need for a speed bonus in this picture.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 12:48:00 - [216] Edited by: Rajere on 03/04/2009 12:51:57 Quote: The notion of BO's being used to attack cyno jammers is not realistic in my opinion. They are simply too expensive and the risks are far too great for that. The way I see BO ships (in combination with its force recon / SB support) is guerrila warfare, preying on lone travellers, careless ratters and such. Exactly. The reason why we need Covert Cyno's to work in Cynojammed space is because cynojammed space has a great deal of the targets blackop gangs excel at killing. Alot of them are expensive ships with nice loot, piloted by players with less PVP experience than Low Sec carebears. You probably could take out a cynojammer via bridging in a huge SB fleet, using bookmarks+pre-aligning while cloaked, have all the SB's fire a volley then warp to an offgrid before the tower can lock them, then turn around and warp back to the tower and repeat. Would take a loooooong time and maybe 50-100 guys flying SBs, but it's irrelevant. If you have 50-100 guys available to shoot a cynojammer then you aren't exactly desperate for off the wall strategies to succeed, just have your pilots reprocess the SB's and bring RR BS instead. Quote: If you have reasons why you're right: Post them. I always post my reasons, and I must assume my arguments are flawless, since no one ever successfully contests them. Oddly enough it's the other side of the argument who fails to post any reasons whatsoever to support their side, and even when my reasons absolutely demolish theirs, destroying any logical basis for holding their position, they continue on any and simply repeat what they already said but add more CAPITAL LETTERS, bold and italic words, and bullet points, as if these things alone will trump reasonable debate and validate their beliefs. If you believe BOs need Covert Ops Cloaks, please post a simple answer explaining why? What benefits would this grant the ships, what it would enable you to do which you cannot already accomplish? Make sure you clearly express the benefits adding the COC would achieve since every sane poster has pointed out and CCP has confirmed that adding the COC would overpower them and that there would be a trade off ie nerfs to BOs abilities to balance them. You must explain the need for COCs, despite the fact that their existing Jump Drives vastly outclass COCs in every conceivable way, in terms of what it enables you to do, where it enables you to go, and what it enables you accomplish. Not to say that there isn't a small number of things a COC would enable your BOs to do that the Jump Drive doesn't (such as scouting, probing, warping in to tackle targets, etc), but you need to explain A: why you think Blackops would be suited for these roles (instead of failing horrible at them), and B: why you would want to use 6-700mil ships (+rigs/fittings) for this stuff when the other ships you have in BO Gangs, CovOps & Force recons, happen to already be the #1 ships designed specifically for these tasks. When you come up with something other than misguided, fail wannabe solopwnmobiles, let me know, tia -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.04.03 13:17:00 - [217] Originally by: Rajere If you believe BOs need Covert Ops Cloaks, please post a simple answer explaining why? What benefits would this grant the ships, what it would enable you to do which you cannot already accomplish? My personal view is that Covert Ops II cloaks are required. I dont believe they would make these ships 'overpowered' for the very reason you've already explained: the cov cyno ability beats the Cov Ops Cloak in almost all respects. However, the jump capability always assumes that you have another player available (online, correct ship etc) to whom you can jump too, and that this player is within Jump Range. Not all B Ops pilots will have this luxury. Smaller corporations (the very corps that would benefit from small scale operations) are less likely to have cov cyno capabable players. Perhaps through choice (not everyone wants to fly a recon) or neccessity (through simple lack of sufficient skills, players being online etc). For example say youre a B Ops pilot, with no cyno target with whom to utilse your jump capability? You're now sat in an extremely expensive T1 Battleship. The addition of a covert ops II cloak simply enables a B ops pilot to mimic, albeit at reduced functionality, the covert capabilities that a cov cyno would normally provide. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Tethys Thule Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.03 13:19:00 - [218] Edited by: Tethys Thule on 03/04/2009 13:23:10 Originally by: Cailais Not all B Ops pilots will have this luxury. Smaller corporations (the very corps that would benefit from small scale operations) are less likely to have cov cyno capabable players. Perhaps through choice (not everyone wants to fly a recon) or neccessity (through simple lack of sufficient skills, players being online etc). hmmm I have three covert cyno V characters myself, maybe I wasted 3 months but it sure does make things easier when using cynos on a cheetah... All I want for my Panther is more fuel, less onerous consumption for jumpbridging, a little more range, and t2 resists. Maybe a scan res bonus would be sweet too (or perhaps a hull bonus that negated the cloak scan penalty.) I don't see the covops cloak as a necessity (and I'd honestly hate to lose the insta-warp from cloak ability on a BS.) Also, if blackops BS get a covert cloak, I'll have wasted my faction cloak, haha. I do hate the tension between "jump a gang in" and "jump myself somewhere" that the fuel requirements create.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 13:22:00 - [219] Edited by: Rajere on 03/04/2009 13:25:21 Originally by: Baudolino 1. Speed bonus is usefull for travelling in low-sec -On the other hand, you have said yourself countless times that BO has no use for stargates and i agree with this, it`s stupid to move through gates when you have jump drive that can move you multiple systems at a time. BOs do not need speed for travel, they need speed in the combat zone. This is mostly an issue of convenience. Technically BO's do not need to use stargates ever, but for practical purposes if you can use a stargate for "traveling" then there's no reason not to. The distinction here is traveling is your gang getting to point A, so that you can cyno to point C, evading all the blobs/bubble camps/defenders sitting at point B ie the route between A and C. BO's are basically invincible in low sec flying gate to gate, thus there's no reason not just use gates for traveling. Also no reason not to use gates in 0.0 if you're scouts/tacklers are flying with you ie they jump first and scout the other end of gates for you. The #1 reason you need to travel is to get within jump range of the system you are going to be jumping to. All these kind of details are specific to the area you live in and how the systems in that space are placed in terms of ly. Sometimes you need to move a few systems over to be in range to jump. Buffing the jump range from 2ly to 3ly (JDCV 4.5ly to 7.5ly) would greatly reduce the amount of traveling needed. Quote: 2. Cloak+speed bonus gives evac option -We can`t cloak after being targeted and we can`t cloak while engaged by drones. Even if targets are jammed and killed- you can`t cloak after the engagement if you are still targeted by drones. -Moreover.. there are other bonuses that would be much more beneficial in an evac phase- like agility and ecm burst bonuses or some other bonus i`ve not considered. By evac option I mean when you realize it's a trap and is being sprung, ie, towards the beginning of the engagement right after you jumped in. It's not supposed to be a get out of jail free card for escaping from a trap that's already happened, have already warped in, and started ****caging you :P If you are suspicious about a potential trap, or even if you aren't since the best time to do this is as soon as you appear in local before you have begun moving, the moment you load system, pick a celestial, hit align, cloak, uncloak all in quick succession and then begin locking your target. You'll be fully aligned and able to insta-warp out before you finish your lock and cloaking/uncloaking combined with overview lag caused by delays between client/server prevents your targets from starting to lock you before you're aligning and already locking them. Note that you won't be able to recloak again right away, though you shouldn't need to. The best blackops trap is a cyno on the bait "ratting" ship and counter dropping blackops. If your opponent sets it up correctly it's a race to who loads first and who locks first, and every second counts. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.04.03 13:42:00 - [220] Originally by: Tethys Thule Edited by: Tethys Thule on 03/04/2009 13:23:10 Originally by: Cailais Not all B Ops pilots will have this luxury. Smaller corporations (the very corps that would benefit from small scale operations) are less likely to have cov cyno capabable players. Perhaps through choice (not everyone wants to fly a recon) or neccessity (through simple lack of sufficient skills, players being online etc). hmmm I have three covert cyno V characters myself, maybe I wasted 3 months but it sure does make things easier when using cynos on a cheetah... Youre in a lucky position as you can dictate the training path and ship selection of your alts. That's not the case if you are running one account for example. Equally to be able to utilise a Black Ops BS in a covert role should the cost requirement be for a Black Ops (+ associated skills) and a 2nd account with a cov cyno capable pilot (+assocaited skills and ship). At a rough order of maginitude you are delivering the strike capability of 1 x T1 BS for a cost in the region of 500mil - 1billion ISK. Im not sure thats really worth it. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.

Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.03 13:49:00 - [221] Originally by: Cailais My personal view is that Covert Ops II cloaks are required. I dont believe they would make these ships 'overpowered' for the very reason you've already explained: the cov cyno ability beats the Cov Ops Cloak in almost all respects. However, the jump capability always assumes that you have another player available (online, correct ship etc) to whom you can jump too, and that this player is within Jump Range. Not all B Ops pilots will have this luxury. Smaller corporations (the very corps that would benefit from small scale operations) are less likely to have cov cyno capabable players. Perhaps through choice (not everyone wants to fly a recon) or neccessity (through simple lack of sufficient skills, players being online etc). For example say youre a B Ops pilot, with no cyno target with whom to utilse your jump capability? You're now sat in an extremely expensive T1 Battleship. The addition of a covert ops II cloak simply enables a B ops pilot to mimic, albeit at reduced functionality, the covert capabilities that a cov cyno would normally provide. C. I understand where you're coming from, but honestly, if you don't have a Covert Cyno available there is no reason to undock a blackops to begin with. You said it yourself, you're in a extremely expensive <t1 battleship, why would you undock with that instead of just undocking in a regular battleship instead? If you are a blackops pilot, especially one in situations you listed, you need to have an covert cyno alt, period. At the very least, you need an alt/player who can tank out a cruiser/bc with a regular cyno fitted, but that's only a bandaid, situationally limited solution for your problem. If you do not reliably have the "luxury" of having a Covert Cyno available, then there is no reason to have the blackops. Note that Covert Cyno is required for the ship to function properly and to the full extent of it's abilities, that makes it a necessity, not a luxury. We're a small corp, ~40 total members including alts, nearly all of our mains have blackops but only half a dozen or so of our Black Ops pilots have Covert Cyno capable alts. There's always atleast 1-3 of our Cov Cyno pilots around during our primetime so our guys are somewhat lax on getting their cov cyno pilots trained up, but if/when there are no Cov Cyno pilot available (and a regular cyno fit to a tanked suicide ship won't work well enough to pull it off), then that basically eliminates the option of using blackops, regardless of how many BOs we have online and ready to jump. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Griffinator Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.03 14:29:00 - [222] please make these ships usefull properly and allow them to use the covert ops cloaks and warp when cloaked, make a very nice isk sink and increase the usage in pvp, i don't know of anyone who has one apart from as a hangar ornament.
Waarph ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.04.03 15:41:00 - [223] /Signed what Rajere and Burn eden guys said. They use it in game, they risk it and they know the **** can be good
Agillious Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.04.03 17:10:00 - [224] Reading this postfarm, as well as the discussion on black ops battleships, I see two camps discussing two roles regarding one ship. I see this circling around the justifications and problems with allowing Black Ops Battle Ships to use covert cloaks, and the accompanying warping while cloaked factor. My personal position is NO to covert cloaks. With covert cynos, you don't need the covert cloaks. While each have their situational advantages, both are methods for travelling without being seen. The covert cyno is a sudden appearance in the system, while cloaks are sudden appearances on the battlefield. In 0.0, where terrain (systems) allow you more travel freedom (jumps and cynos), tactical cloaking's surprise results are achieved with jumps. Jumping into system provides the surprise. In lo-sec and hi-sec, terrain is more limitied in that jumping from system to system isn't common, ergo, gate travel and warping near other people is perceived to be more common, hence the perceived value for adding the ability to warp cloaked is greater than the mobility provided by the jump drive. The issue of covert cloaks aside, I think there is value in considering a BS role designed to support covert ships in lo-sec or hi-sec. I believe that BOBS belong in 0.0. That's their native home, where they can make the best use of the jump drive. I believe they are best used in groups of small, tactical minded corps, that ensure they have the dedicated resources to support these beasts. Non-dedicated corporations, or solo players SHOULD find it difficult to support this kind of ship. Accordingly, the players arguing for the covert cloak I think are essentially arguing for an additional ship class, or at least a new role. To me the BOBS represents the Deep Space Black Op battleship. There is an opportunity here for CCP to create a lo-sec/ hi-sec focused Guerrilla Ops Battle Ship. Light, quick, flimsy, cloaky, no jump-drive. Get in, kill/harass, get out. While obviously not meant to be the cloaking solopwnmobileo'totalheldeth, they should provide a good sting. I am trying to think of other role-bonuses that would develop the Guerrilla role... probe bonuses? support ecm bonuses? secondary ecm bonuses? economic inhibitors? projected effects specialties? MORE SHINY, PLEASE!!!
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.03 19:24:00 - [225] Originally by: Griffinator allow them to use the covert ops cloaks... I can't believe no one is anticipating what 0.0 will look like when these rich alliances get hold of a Black Ops ship with a COC. Whole fleets of invisible battleships = a complete mess. Here's something no one has successfully done: Clearly state the role of a Black Ops. What's it for? - Solo roaming + combat? - Fleet logistics to get small teams into heavily camped systems? To what end? - Support for moving small gangs around 0.0? Someone (CCP) please state what these things are for. Once that's done the features they need to support that role will be a lot easier to define.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.04.03 19:52:00 - [226] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Griffinator allow them to use the covert ops cloaks... I can't believe no one is anticipating what 0.0 will look like when these rich alliances get hold of a Black Ops ship with a COC. Whole fleets of invisible battleships = a complete mess. Here's something no one has successfully done: Clearly state the role of a Black Ops. What's it for? - Solo roaming + combat? - Fleet logistics to get small teams into heavily camped systems? To what end? - Support for moving small gangs around 0.0? Someone (CCP) please state what these things are for. Once that's done the features they need to support that role will be a lot easier to define. just clueless. No stupid alliance gets rich. Smart alliances will not make fleets of 500m BS that can evenwhile invisible be wiped by the surely titan that will be waiting them.... Also rich alliances power lies in dreads not on any fancy stuff. They use brute force
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.04.04 00:06:00 - [227] Originally by: Rajere If you only have 1 acct then you shouldn't have trained for blackops tbh. In the current context your statement is probably correct - but that doesnt excuse such poor game design. Great money spinner of course - but tragic game design. I'd suggest a re-name to Marketing Ops. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.04 01:54:00 - [228] Give Black Ops 1. Covert ops cloak, 2. +2 warp strength 3. Sizable fuel bay. That will make it somewhat useful. Otherwise simple t2 recon cruiser is better. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.04 07:17:00 - [229] Originally by: rgreat Give Black Ops 1. Covert ops cloak, 2. +2 warp strength 3. Sizable fuel bay. That will make it somewhat useful. Otherwise simple t2 recon cruiser is better. Yes, please make the Black Ops into a better covert hauler. I've always wanted a Battleship sized crane... Has anyone noticed that those who want cov ops cloaking are generally people who don't plan on using the Black Ops for it's primary role, bridging forces behind enemy lines? I already have a recon ship, if the Black Ops becomes that I'll sell mine and fly my pilgrim instead. I mean honest to god, the Redeemer and a well fit Pilgrim have about the same effective hp anyway.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.04.04 07:43:00 - [230] Ah, I just love the black ops fanboys, you're really kind of cute. You're like stealth bomber fanboys, but with more ISK to throw away. But really, get over it, your ships suck. Let us compare a black ops to a carrier, in the gank scenario you claim is so perfectly suited to the black ops: Jump range: carrier wins. Carrier jumps in from longer distances, making it easier to hide from scouting and giving it a much larger are to hunt in. DPS: draw. The black ops has a small theoretical advantage, but the carrier has the advantage of neuts and much greater ability to engage any smaller targets that show up. Tank: carrier wins by a huge margin. Black ops are paper thin and have minimal active tank, carriers can tank several thousand dps by themselves, and tons more with remote reps included, on top of over a million EHP. Remote tank: carrier wins, as the black ops can not even compete. The black ops has minimal, if any, remote repair capability, while the carrier can make any support ships essentially invulnerable to a small gang. Escape time: carrier wins. Warp-out time is a draw, the carrier takes longer to align, but both ships can align out before the target is dead. However, the carrier has a faster jump-out time, especially once the black ops' cap use in the fight is considered. Lock time: carrier wins. Not only does it have more slots for sensor boosters, but it has no need to cripple its lock time with a cloak. Result: carrier locks faster. Trap vulnerability: carrier wins by a huge margin. Any gang that can kill a carrier gang will effortlessly massacre a black ops gang. The reverse is NOT true, many of those black ops killers will die horribly against an equal number of carriers. So even in your supposed ideal scenario for the black ops, the carrier does everything the black ops does, and does it better. Without the covops cloak, they are worthless ships. -----------

Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.04.04 08:27:00 - [231] Can't you see theres a problem with something when its totally unusable without one exact situation and one exactly set-up alt ? You use black ops to gank solo t1 bcs and bses... Its a totally disproportionate amount of training time and isk spent. Especially assuming you have a recon holding the other guy, which in reality means an arazu, then the guy is screwed anyway. Damped to hell, no MWD. All you need do is bring just about enough dps to win. I've said it before and will continue to do so. All you're doing is a really expensive form of ganking. You aren't 'ambushing' your just using a slightly different way to get 'the damage' to 'the target'. It doesn't make you big or clever, it just makes you rich. I mean, you COULD just use a BS gang in the next system, and tackle with inties like normal functioning people. Thats the bottom line. Why bother with black ops when you may just as well use ANY other gang.
Sevanna Minmatar The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2009.04.04 11:24:00 - [232] please dont make this yet another poswar fiasko!.. =( let the recon's be recon's!.. let the pos waring gimps play with their dreads and blobb tactics, and let those who want tactical combat's and being able to load the gridd before getting DDD'd, have a little love a) cov'op cloak.. it's not a recon force without it.. all ships can fit cloak anyhow. b) maybe some minor addiotion to jump range would be lovely.. and less fuel, letting small gangs being able to get some travel distances, go deep into enemy/unknown space. recons = small gangs of cov ops that use guerilla tactics on enemys, selective targets.. NOT BLOB WAREFARE... sighs please please please!! dont make another blobbit specced warefare.. there's too much of it already.. Use your recon's to secure the pathway for Blob-cynotake out or something. hrmf! disrupt their logistics, etc... leave the covert ships out of the pos stuff.. >.< on another note: BO. have little dps, little tank, and poor res cause by cloak. wich make them only a logistical object =( good and bad )= yet another 'alt-character ship' not really used, but is there for afk purpose. specced, not multirole.. in a way good.. but too much in my opinion, a ship shouldnt be specced for alt/afk characters... =/ larger fuel bay or less fuel req's = verry good. cov'cloak = Needed! without it, its not a recon ship. better jump range = would be soooo lovely =) not nessisary but would be great. make them a little combat specce'd, with the cov'cloak, they'd already be at least somwhat combat speced being able to choose targets more easilly. (like their counterpart recons.) :: rebell against opression ::
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.04 11:26:00 - [233] Ah Merin, my favorite delusional forum troll. Still spouting that same, tired rhetoric that I've already disproved I see? I'll give you credit, if you keep posting the same BS myths enough times, maybe you'll start to believe it. Everyone else just feels sorry for you :( Here, for old times sake: Jump range: carrier wins, if this was a category to consider, but it's not. "guys, lets hide our carriers 40 jumps away, they'll never see it coming. " "dude, they've only got 1 scout and he's sitting 1 system out watching the gate. We don't need to hide anything." "Nah man, we gotta do this right. i'm gonna move my cyno alt the 40 jumps so we can get in position, afk 30 min, hopefully that raven will still be ratting when I get back!" DPS: Black Ops wins. Even if the Carrier is triple sensor boosted which it wouldn't be (this was in case he needed to rep the cyno rupture), it will still deal less damage than a Panther on a tackled, BS+ sized target. Against anything smaller the Carrier's DPS is non-existent. Tank: carrier wins this, no contest. Remote tank: This is a category how? If this category comes into play, it's because you're losing your entire carrier gang to a massive blob, all because you were determined to hotdrop ratters with Carriers. Lock time: Black Ops win by a huge margin, locking nearly twice as fast as carriers. Carrier would require 3x SBs to have a higher scan res than a Black Ops, which you could argue that allows carriers to win this category, at the cost of failing that much harder in the "Escape time" and "Trap Vulnerability" categories, due to having no cap regen. I'll even ignore the fact that since you have no cloak your carrier cannot even consider jumping into the kind of hostile systems that BOs excel in, since your carrier loss would be guaranteed. Escape time: Blackops absolute win this one, no question. 4 seconds. That's how long it takes a blackops to align out and enter warp. It takes the carrier 25-30seconds to even align. Blackops also have faster jump out time, with a complete recharge fit the carrier can get close, but is still about 2minutes slower than the BOs. Trap vulnerability: Black Ops win by a total landslide victory here, and this is the killer. The moment the trap is sprung, Anything short of a cloaked dictor in bubble range of the bait decloaking and bubbling everyone, and the blackops are gone, in warp to a safe and immediately cloaking up, meanwhile the carriers still have 20 seconds left before they are aligned to warp out, and they start getting tackled. Even if there is a cloaked bubble, the BOs much faster velocity with MWD Pulse + cloak means they should be able to escape, though its possible they may lose 1 BO. The Cloaked bubble gurantees the death of the entire carrier gang. Cost to Use: An important category you like to forget, Black Ops win. In order to hotdrop targets in hostile space you must be able to avoid camps/blobs while traveling through their space, find the target, get in position, tackle it, and then you can light a cyno. That combination means your cyno ship must be a force recon. BO jump through via an invisible, 30 second cyno. Carriers jump through via a system wide, 5 minute cyno, your cyno ship is going to die. You lose 120mil ISK for every t1 fit raven you kill. The truth is that the blackops gang can jump in, gank the target, scoop the loot, salvage it, and warp out in the time it takes the Carriers to even finish aligning. The target would already be in armor before the Carriers finishes lock. The target would be entering structure by the time you could get his drones/fighters deployed, issue attack commands, and have them on the target to even begin dealing damage. By this time, local is flooding and your cyno provides the warp in. You may get the kill, but you abandon your recon and warp out(ohnocloak?) or you lose all your caps. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S
Fulbert Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.04 11:38:00 - [234] There is actually no need for a jumpfuel bay : - decrease the fuel consumption amount base from 400 to 300 or less - increase the cargohold size from 600m3 to 1000m3 - give black ops a skill bonus for jump fuel consumption and for cargohold - let the jumpportal draw its fuel from the jumping ships (recons, covert, etc.) cargo and not from the BO themselves. BO will never become hauling ships. You can easily increase their cargohold w/o ruining Transport ships (especially since they can use covert ops cloaks). -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist Gallente Cruiser V : 22d left
Jomanda Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.04 14:31:00 - [235] Merin, comparing BO with Carriers is just as silly as comparing a Manticore to a Phoenix. Besides, it does not add to the thread. For all you naysayers, simply slagging of Black ops ships, does not help improve them. We all know that there are issues with the current state of BO ships, and this thread is to discuss options and ideas to improve them. Simply stating they suck without offering any ideas or suggestions is a complete waste of everybody's time. Originally by: Fulbert There is actually no need for a jumpfuel bay : - decrease the fuel consumption amount base from 400 to 300 or less - increase the cargohold size from 600m3 to 1000m3 - give black ops a skill bonus for jump fuel consumption and for cargohold - let the jumpportal draw its fuel from the jumping ships (recons, covert, etc.) cargo and not from the BO themselves. This could be an option, but I do not think the cargobay needs to be increased, as long as the bridge fuel is consumed from the bridged ships' cargoholds. Furthermore, the fuel consumption should be so that several jumps can be made, even for recon ships. I believe that CCP had plans to have the fuel consumed from the bridged ships and I wonder what happened to those ideas? This would eliminate a lot of cargo requirements for the BO ships and could, if implemented correctly, eliminate the need for seperate fuel bays alltogether.
Sevanna Minmatar The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2009.04.04 14:39:00 - [236] Rajere and Merrin or whotnot name seem to hold the difference in carrier and Black ops compatibillity in much respect to the actual role and usefullness vs ceirtan factors of abillity and pricing. I use both... as such.... carrier i use, black op, has been collecting dust... similar pricetags on them for most parts.. on the issue of targeting. the black op wins by a margin of resolution of 20. yay..sighs a ship that fragile being so slow to target, horrid.. anyhow.. think theyr fixing this a little at least. anything comparing these two in survivabillity, the carrier wins.. dps... the carrier by about 200dps =) vs friggs!? easy use t2 light drones lol! remember the drone bay of the carrier is rather large =) anyhow.. comparing these two ships shouldnt be done, different types of ships entirely and different roles.. sadly, one is usefull the other isnt atm..(for an active playing character) sure you can mange to stumble uppon ceirtan situations where you manage to use your overpriced blackops other than a rather tacky logistical ship and keep it afk cloaked or in hangar.. (just sounds wrong doesnt it for a 600++mill ship) not sure bout the price these days anymore .... current use: train an alt to operate.. using a main character for black ops is going to ensure a boring life indeed if not changed. if you want to be doing something yourself, just get a carrier rather, it allows for more options, more action, more survivabillity, etc etc... and the pricecheck in the long run if you use it activly is going to be allot smaller =) I love the fact that black ops were introduced, and got myself one almost imidatly.... and well that was it.. >.< sad monkeywrench.. :: rebell against opression ::
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.04.04 15:30:00 - [237] How about when you activate your cloak it removes you from the local channel list as an addition to some of the other great ideas in here.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.04 15:38:00 - [238] Edited by: rgreat on 04/04/2009 15:42:53 Edited by: rgreat on 04/04/2009 15:39:23 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Yes, please make the Black Ops into a better covert hauler. I've always wanted a Battleship sized crane... Has anyone noticed that those who want cov ops cloaking are generally people who don't plan on using the Black Ops for it's primary role, bridging forces behind enemy lines? I already have a recon ship, if the Black Ops becomes that I'll sell mine and fly my pilgrim instead. I mean honest to god, the Redeemer and a well fit Pilgrim have about the same effective hp anyway. Huh, blocade runner is still MUCH better covert hauler. Weird that you, carebears of eve do not know about it. Cov ops cloak give BO initiative advantage in combat. +2 Warp strength add better survivability in solo and small gangs figths. And hope to actually make a run for it if something goes wrong. Its a much needed feature as battleships does not have the mobility of it cruieser covert counterparts. With black ops huge cost its a must have feature. It is not nearly an immunity, but a chance to survive. interdictors still get you, more then 1 tackler will get you again. And you will still be a primary targed for all hostiles around. Finally fuel bay adds mobility to it. As most of typical black ops cargo bay is filled with cap batteries it definitely need fuel bay. If you plan to use BO as transport - it is a waste. Use carriers or blocade runners. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.04 22:02:00 - [239] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Ah, I just love the black ops fanboys, you're really kind of cute. You're like stealth bomber fanboys, but with more ISK to throw away. But really, get over it, your ships suck. Let us compare a black ops to a carrier, in the gank scenario you claim is so perfectly suited to the black ops: Jump range: carrier wins. Carrier jumps in from longer distances, making it easier to hide from scouting and giving it a much larger are to hunt in. DPS: draw. The black ops has a small theoretical advantage, but the carrier has the advantage of neuts and much greater ability to engage any smaller targets that show up. Tank: carrier wins by a huge margin. Black ops are paper thin and have minimal active tank, carriers can tank several thousand dps by themselves, and tons more with remote reps included, on top of over a million EHP. Remote tank: carrier wins, as the black ops can not even compete. The black ops has minimal, if any, remote repair capability, while the carrier can make any support ships essentially invulnerable to a small gang. Escape time: carrier wins. Warp-out time is a draw, the carrier takes longer to align, but both ships can align out before the target is dead. However, the carrier has a faster jump-out time, especially once the black ops' cap use in the fight is considered. Lock time: carrier wins. Not only does it have more slots for sensor boosters, but it has no need to cripple its lock time with a cloak. Result: carrier locks faster. Trap vulnerability: carrier wins by a huge margin. Any gang that can kill a carrier gang will effortlessly massacre a black ops gang. The reverse is NOT true, many of those black ops killers will die horribly against an equal number of carriers. So even in your supposed ideal scenario for the black ops, the carrier does everything the black ops does, and does it better. Without the covops cloak, they are worthless ships. And i love all the isk farmers trying their damnedest to make these ships into thier own personal ratting machines. I accept that in it's current state the black ops is useless. But, CCP is adding the ability to bypass cyno jammers, which is HUGE. The idea that the Blac Ops in worthless without cov ops cloaking is just infantile. The ships need: 1. to have the scan res penatly fixed, so we can fire and recloak. 2. the ability to bypass cyno jammers (already on the board.) 3. a jump fuel consumption boost (already on the board.) 4. a fuel bay (coming soon.) 5. and imo, a small resist bonus to add survivabilty, since everyone agrees at this point the cost out weighs thier value. I understand that having a Cov ops cloak will make plexing and ratting in these ships so much more fun for you guys, but honestly, isn't your Domi survivavble enough already with it's proto type cloak and safe spot?
SkwisgaarSkwigelf C.R.M Productions Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.04.04 22:10:00 - [240] I'm still out on the covops cloak debate. I do want better range, less fuel consumption, a 3rd turret bonus and proper resists for the panther. I also want to see more cpu and powergrid, running setups through eft seems way too tight all the time.

Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.04 22:27:00 - [241] I'm willing to accept cov ops cloak if the DPS output is reduced by half - half the high slots. And reduce tank by about 25% - by reducing hit points, cap, and grid. That way it would be fair, and it wouldn't be used by farmers. But I'd rather see Black Ops as a stronger fighter without cov ops, than a cov ops with weak ship
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.04.04 22:40:00 - [242] Where are all these 'farmers' flying Black Ops BS??? Trying to imply cov ops cloak = farmers is rubbish: trying to drum up support against cover ops cloaks being an option by appealing to the anti-farmer lobby. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Pesadel0 Minmatar Black Nova Corp KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.04 23:10:00 - [243] They need the CoC because if they don, they will be just the typhoon of old ,the few that used it said it was the best ship in eve the other people saw it like the true manure it was ,a poorly designed ship. Or they could leave it at that and create a real COVERTBS like a bigger rapier, people that like the sh**** BS chould be still in one and the normal people could grief our brains out.
Fulbert Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.04 23:29:00 - [244] CoCD isn't the big deal. The whole debate is about the jumpdrive and the jump portal : how can we make these things useful and reliable for BOs w/o making them ultimate pwnmachines? CoCD is only a mean for survability. It doesn't solve anything about the reliability of the BOs : yes, yes, a BO with CoCD can't be catch, even at camped gates... so what? Being a BS variant of Force Recons wasn't the original task of BOs! -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.04.04 23:50:00 - [245] Hmm, some good arguments in this thread, I'm thinking; - Give it a covops cloak - Nerf it's combat ability a little - Make it more expensive to build. - Improve the fuel efficiency if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature.
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.05 00:39:00 - [246] Originally by: Ephemeron I'm willing to accept cov ops cloak if the DPS output is reduced by half - half the high slots. And reduce tank by about 25% - by reducing hit points, cap, and grid. That way it would be fair, and it wouldn't be used by farmers. But I'd rather see Black Ops as a stronger fighter without cov ops, than a cov ops with weak ship half the dps for a covert ops cloak? that's like the same dps as a falcon. ---
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.04.05 01:42:00 - [247] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Ephemeron I'm willing to accept cov ops cloak if the DPS output is reduced by half - half the high slots. And reduce tank by about 25% - by reducing hit points, cap, and grid. That way it would be fair, and it wouldn't be used by farmers. But I'd rather see Black Ops as a stronger fighter without cov ops, than a cov ops with weak ship half the dps for a covert ops cloak? that's like the same dps as a falcon. No, that means instead of 600 dps you get 300, which is more than all the recons Pimped out gank Black ops hit 1000 dps, so you could get 500 with cov ops cloak
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.05 02:31:00 - [248] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Ephemeron I'm willing to accept cov ops cloak if the DPS output is reduced by half - half the high slots. And reduce tank by about 25% - by reducing hit points, cap, and grid. That way it would be fair, and it wouldn't be used by farmers. But I'd rather see Black Ops as a stronger fighter without cov ops, than a cov ops with weak ship half the dps for a covert ops cloak? that's like the same dps as a falcon. No, that means instead of 600 dps you get 300, which is more than all the recons Pimped out gank Black ops hit 1000 dps, so you could get 500 with cov ops cloak I'd rather have the dps than covert cloak. ---
Trigger Jocky Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.04.05 03:10:00 - [249] Edited by: Trigger Jocky on 05/04/2009 03:14:51 Dps for a cloak doesnt make sense, cause you cant hurt stuff when your cloaked. I am a proponent of the CoCD because i can see it being a invaluable asset when your fighting out numbered. With it you have no warning when you arrive even if you cloak when you land. They still know your there, and can react accordingly. I Personally thought the locking time was appropriate for the use of a cloak and the speed to reposition while cloaked. Reasons i like the CoCD - Can't be scanned on the directional when your inbound to the target. - Your Arrival on the field isnt broadcast to the entire enemy fleet. - Can relocate without the enemy knowing. in the past ive used my redeemer plenty alone and with small gangs of other blackops. Usually by travelling paralell to the friendly fleet and when our scouts report the target our cyno passes the enemy and we jump past them and block their escape with a deployable bubble and some bops force recons and stealth bombers camping the gate. i see the black ops being more of a tactical striker on and off the battlefield warp to the field cloaked apporach your target as a gang fc says uncloak and engage you gank then claok warp off get a new warp in rinse and repeat. i completely disagree with the notion of using them to bash a pos, they really dont have the resistances or tank to attack a pos. Previously someone said give em an ecm burst bonus, id go father and change the cloaking velocity bonus to a bonus to burst or eccm and give them the CoCD and inherant passive targetting. Even if you didnt give them a CoCD inherent passive targetting gives you the oh** factor and for a cutting edge top of the line bs its not too hard to imagine. prolly have a lot of spelling mistakes i apologize my text box was ****ed and i couldnt see what i was typing (it wouldnt scroll down) and yes i tried reloading didnt fix anything.
Winterreign	Posted - 2009.04.05 04:15:00 - [250] I've never flown a Black ops before But. Personaly 1. I think they should have more DPS then a T1 ship, very combaty close range. 2. They should have suffiently better tank then a T1 ships, as they are high tech-ish 3. They should be able to do anything associated with covert - ops/cyno's/cloaks whatever whenever. Jumping, fuel bay the whole works 4. They should be overpowered for their niche. They are the end all be all of covert ops. I don't mean a little strong or measuredly balanced but overpowered. Consideringin the skills dump the ISK involved (shy of a billion) you should be warranted that you get a ship that kicks ass. And lastly if the black ops dosn't do any of the above? Then what the hells the incentive for training for one? -W

Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.05 05:47:00 - [251] Originally by: Winterreign I've never flown a Black ops before But. Personaly 1. I think they should have more DPS then a T1 ship, very combaty close range. 2. They should have suffiently better tank then a T1 ships, as they are high tech-ish 3. They should be able to do anything associated with covert - ops/cyno's/cloaks whatever whenever. Jumping, fuel bay the whole works 4. They should be overpowered for their niche. They are the end all be all of covert ops. I don't mean a little strong or measuredly balanced but overpowered. Consideringin the skills dump the ISK involved (shy of a billion) you should be warranted that you get a ship that kicks ass. And lastly if the black ops dosn't do any of the above? Then what the hells the incentive for training for one? -W Play WoW much? --Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.05 07:51:00 - [252] I'd like them to have a CoCD (considering the ISK and SP sink). In addition, if they are to take out cyno jammers (which are protected like death stars) they will need: To fire citadel torpedoes (like the super stealth bombers they should be) To tank like a dred The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out!
Jomanda Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.05 08:21:00 - [253] Originally by: Trigger Jocky Edited by: Trigger Jocky on 05/04/2009 03:14:51 Dps for a cloak doesnt make sense, cause you cant hurt stuff when your cloaked. I am a proponent of the CoCD because i can see it being a invaluable asset when your fighting out numbered. With it you have no warning when you arrive even if you cloak when you land. They still know your there, and can react accordingly. I Personally thought the locking time was appropriate for the use of a cloak and the speed to reposition while cloaked. Reasons i like the CoCD - Can't be scanned on the directional when your inbound to the target. - Your Arrival on the field isnt broadcast to the entire enemy fleet. - Can relocate without the enemy knowing. I completely disagree with you. In my opinion, the jump drive trumps the COC every time. A BO is not supposed to warp in the hostile system, except after the fight is over, to safe up and cloak to recharge the cap for the jump out. In addition to your 3 bulletpoint, the jumpdrive offers more advantage like not being in local, not revealing the size of you fleet to scouts in ajoining systems and having the ultimate safespot: another system! I would even go as far, that when COC's are allowed on BO, you might as well remove the jumpdrive of the ship itself (note: not the bridge). That way you can just use it as the damage-dealing recon that the game doesnt have. However this takes away the charm of the ship, it is clearly intended to be jumping into to choas of a fight, guns blazing. The pilot can decide for himself if he wants to jump in or not until the last second the cyno is up. You cannot be safer than being in another system! The cloak on the BO is intended to be used when the ship is waiting to jump into the target system, as well as to sit in (relative safety) at a safespot to recharge the cap, in order to jump out of a targetsystem, after a fight. And finally to allow for escape, using the cloak-warp trick. There is no other need for a cloak on a BO! I dont understand the idea of the boost to ECM Burst. If you boost the strength of the ECM burst, you only have a chance to break the lock of everything within a 5 km radius, and if you boost the range, you will not successfully break the lock of everything above frigate size. I mean if you need to use the ECM Burst to get out, there are likely multiple cruiser size ships or larger trying to kill you. If only one is out of range of the ECM Burst or his lock failed to break, you are still dead. And to make the range of the ECM burst over 24 km, to counter a warp disrupting hostile, is just silly. And to top it all off, the ECM Burst consumes a lot of cap, which is the juice of life especially for BO! You need to have sufficient cap to jump out as soon as possible after engaging. So it depends on how you see the role for Black Ops ships, if you think it is just another recon with more guns, then there is no need for the jump drive. And if you think the BO should be used for mini-hotdrops, there is no need for a COC. Having both would be pointless, because one does not complement the other. Originally by: Mors Magne Edited by: Mors Magne on 05/04/2009 08:12:48 I'd like them to have a CoCD (considering the ISK and SP sink). Cyno jammers are protected like death stars. Therefore, Black Ops BS could have the ability to hack death star defence systems to then hack the cyno jammer (using the hacking skill). They must be able to do this without being attacked by the defence systems because they currently have too weak a tank. Alternatively, if they are to take out cyno jammers, they will need: To fire citadel torpedoes (as if they are super stealth bombers) To tank like a dred Would a Doomsday device not be more useful, that would eliminate the need for any other ships, and we could call this game, Black Ops Online!
quik90	Posted - 2009.04.05 08:32:00 - [254] Rather than making a senseless wish list here, we should be looking to add character to the ship type, to provide it with a stronger role. As someone who currently has his BlackOps inserted with an alt scout/tackler in hostile territory, I'm horrified at these idiots suggesting that a Black Ops sacrifice its DPS for a COC. Are you mad? The BO is currently the only way a covert/recon gang can apply significant DPS to a battlefield. THIS SHOULD REMAIN ITS MAIN ROLE! Even the no sensor recalibration delay is a much more role defining bonus than being able to fit a COC, as this facilitates effective sniping, even if getting into position can take more time. As has already been mentioned, being able to warp cloaked to a target is not really important when you can cyno there instantly via the much quicker covert/recon. In making BlackOps COC capable, while boosting the ship you are actually taking away the role of coverts/recons and diminishing the exclusive value of the covert cyno generator and the BOs jump drive mechanic. Not being able to warp cloaked is actually a very good role defining weakness. Everything should have strengths and weaknesses. The stealth bomber has lost character with the proposed COC change. Not wanting to only bash other people's suggestions, i'll make a few of my own: - Increased cloak speed. 150-200% per BO level. Allows ship to jump in off grid to a target and get to its optimal faster. This proposal should have been kept with the stealth bomber imo. - New BO module: Doomsday shield (high slot). Activated while cloaked the module provides immunity to all other ganged covert-ops/recon/SBs in X radius. Huge cap drain means it has to be timed well to be effective. In view of a SB cyno-jammer attacks this could prevent the covert gang from being wiped with a single DDD. - New BO module: AOE cloaking device (Hi slot) - activated while cloaked, the module cloaks all ganged ships within X radius (works on convention non-covert ships too). Cloaked ships within the radius lose the ability to target or activate any mods. This could potentially provide a fleet role for the BlackOps and SBs. Idea stolen from the Protoss Arbitrator in Starcraft. - New BO module: Infiltrator cloak - Activated while uncloaked and not switched off by warping, the module makes the black ops appear on sensors as if it was its T1 variant. Additionally all non-ganged ships and POSes will see it as if it was part of their gang or high standing or alliance. Clicking on pilot info will however reveal the true identity of the ship. Other enhancements make the changes applied to local, allows the ship to dock at hostile stations or move into hostile pos shields. This would allow the BlackOps to operate within enemy fleets and close to hostile poses without being targeted by the guns. Idea stolen from the ingenious Spy in Team Fortress II. - New BOps module: Mass infiltrator cloak. Activated as a squad commander, the module makes all squad ships appear to be part of the gang/alliance/high standing to any unganged ships on grid and poses. This would facilitate covert gangs to make the proposed attacks on cyno jammers without them being torn appart by the POS guns. Perhaps to compensate cap drain should be moderate/high/to be supported by cap transfers? It would allow SBs to make the proposed attacks with torpedoes on targeted battleships, and bombs on targeted fleets, without getting pwned instantly. - Command modules - BOps gangs need command modules in some form to improve fighting effectiveness. Skimish/information warfare come to mind. As each of the proposed modules is very powerful in its own way, restrict the BOps to fitting only one. The all add value and character to the Black Ops shiptype, without overpowering. And solidify its role as a commander/facilitator of Black/Covert operations. Enjoy and please start thinking outside the box people.
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.05 08:41:00 - [255] The Dev said: Originally by: CCP Chronotis Perhaps one of the side benefits of certain changes to other certain ships will be that quite a deadly combination for taking out the jammers is possible for the innovative strategists amongst you. Perhaps the truest form of black ops and behind enemy lines operations is now possible to a greater degree :) Stealth bombers won't be able to take out the death stars protecting the cyno jammers. Therefore, hacking defences is a cool way for BOs to solve this problem. Once the defences are hacked, SBs could torpedo the cyno jammer. The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out!
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.04.05 13:45:00 - [256] Is this idea of hacking cyno jammers to make nullsec less stagnant?
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:01:00 - [257] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Is this idea of hacking cyno jammers to make nullsec less stagnant? And to provide a new game of cat and mouse - with expensive mice that have teeth.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:45:00 - [258] Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 14:47:37 Please change 5% hybrid damage of a Sin (and Dominix) to something actually usefull. These ships are rarely fit with these anyway. Thanks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.04.05 14:53:00 - [259] for the love of god make blackops cheaper. Around 200-300mil or so at tops... They're not so much better than normal t1 battleships...
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.05 16:33:00 - [260] Edited by: Mors Magne on 05/04/2009 16:35:16 Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 14:47:37 Please change 5% hybrid damage of a Sin (and Dominix) to something actually usefull. These ships are rarely fit with these anyway. Thanks. If BOs are to distroy cyno jammers, fitting blasters would be a good idea. However, if the role of BOs is versus ships, I agree - a nos/neut bonus would be best. The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out!

Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.05 17:41:00 - [261] Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Ephemeron I'm willing to accept cov ops cloak if the DPS output is reduced by half - half the high slots. And reduce tank by about 25% - by reducing hit points, cap, and grid. That way it would be fair, and it wouldn't be used by farmers. But I'd rather see Black Ops as a stronger fighter without cov ops, than a cov ops with weak ship half the dps for a covert ops cloak? that's like the same dps as a falcon. Black Ops already have about the same amount of effective hit points as a heavily tanked Pilgrim anyway, at least if they fit the portal. What I fail to see is why people are so stuck on the Cov ops cloak. It really adds nothing to the viability of these ships. The only way I could see the COC working is if, like was said eariler, they took a massive dps reduction and gained similiar e-war bonuses to the force recon ships. Really though, that seems entirely pointless since they lose all definition as a class. I'd like to see the ships gain a greater cloaked velocity bonus, making it easier to get the ship as far from it's warp in point as possible and aviod decloaks. The COC doesn't really do that. It's only advantage is warping on to grid unseen. A COC black ops coming through a hostile gate is a dead black ops. A COC black ops the decloaks at any point is probably a dead ship. To survive the ship needs to be able to fire, recloak and move from it's original location as quickly as possible. I don't think you guys get how easily a large COC ship can be decloaked by a mildly experienced interceptor pilot. It will never get into warp before it's tackled. At least with the improved you can get an mwd cycle and get a few km away from your original position, with a speed bonus this would be even more viable.
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.05 17:52:00 - [262] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Originally by: Kayosoni Originally by: Ephemeron I'm willing to accept cov ops cloak if the DPS output is reduced by half - half the high slots. And reduce tank by about 25% - by reducing hit points, cap, and grid. That way it would be fair, and it wouldn't be used by farmers. But I'd rather see Black Ops as a stronger fighter without cov ops, than a cov ops with weak ship half the dps for a covert ops cloak? that's like the same dps as a falcon. Black Ops already have about the same amount of effective hit points as a heavily tanked Pilgrim anyway, at least if they fit the portal. What I fail to see is why people are so stuck on the Cov ops cloak. It really adds nothing to the viability of these ships. The only way I could see the COC working is if, like was said eariler, they took a massive dps reduction and gained similiar e-war bonuses to the force recon ships. Really though, that seems entirely pointless since they lose all definition as a class. I'd like to see the ships gain a greater cloaked velocity bonus, making it easier to get the ship as far from it's warp in point as possible and aviod decloaks. The COC doesn't really do that. It's only advantage is warping on to grid unseen. A COC black ops coming through a hostile gate is a dead black ops. A COC black ops the decloaks at any point is probably a dead ship. To survive the ship needs to be able to fire, recloak and move from it's original location as quickly as possible. I don't think you guys get how easily a large COC ship can be decloaked by a mildly experienced interceptor pilot. It will never get into warp before it's tackled. At least with the improved you can get an mwd cycle and get a few km away from your original position, with a speed bonus this would be even more viable. I agree - a BO doesn't need a COC. It needs: Higher cloaked velocity bonus Higher scan resolution so it can uncloak -> fire -> recloak fast To hack POS defenses (at hacking V) so it can take out cyno jammers The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out!
Takashi Setsu	Posted - 2009.04.05 19:11:00 - [263] Originally by: Cailais Where are all these 'farmers' flying Black Ops BS??? Trying to imply cov ops cloak = farmers is rubbish: trying to drum up support against cover ops cloaks being an option by appealing to the anti-farmer lobby. C. They are waiting for CCP to give them covert ops cloaks...
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.05 20:40:00 - [264] Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 20:41:02 Originally by: Takashi Setsu Originally by: Cailais Where are all these 'farmers' flying Black Ops BS??? Trying to imply cov ops cloak = farmers is rubbish: trying to drum up support against cover ops cloaks being an option by appealing to the anti-farmer lobby. C. They are waiting for CCP to give them covert ops cloaks... Black Ops are too weak to farm with them. Wake up. T1 are better, not to count marauders. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.05 20:55:00 - [265] Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 20:59:16 Originally by: Mors Magne Edited by: Mors Magne on 05/04/2009 16:35:16 Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 14:47:37 Please change 5% hybrid damage of a Sin (and Dominix) to something actually usefull. These ships are rarely fit with these anyway. Thanks. If BOs are to distroy cyno jammers, fitting blasters would be a good idea. However, if the role of BOs is versus ships, I agree - a nos/neut bonus would be best. Do you know how many HP cynojammers have? More then 16 Millions. I severely doubt you can gather so many black ops so you can effectively siege a pos for so long. You'll need to kill cynojammer fast... very fast. Or youll be wiped out with conventional fleet ;) And i still do not understand HOW black ops can attack a fully armed pos. Kamikaze style? ;) No point to fit these blasters. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kethry Avenger We Build Stuff Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.05 22:00:00 - [266] It seems to me that to add a COC and have the ship be able jump itself would make the ship overpowered. What about a compromise. Allow the ship to fit a COC but on this ship it would then cancel its ability to jump or jump bridge or both. Game design wise, could it be added as a feature of the COC or ship that if COC is fitted the ship can't jump? Would this allow the ship to be useful for lowsec PvP with a COC and not make it overpowered in 0.0 space? Just curious, for me as a sometimes pirate sometimes 0.0 peon, I think flexibility without overpowering the ship would be a good option.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.05 22:17:00 - [267] Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 22:23:24 Black Ops cannot be overpowered unless CCP in fact also boost their combat perfomance. Alot. Like tank and damage or ECM ability. What the point if you can warp cloaked and jump around like a happy hauler if you cannot win a fight with actual enemy of a comparable size (or cost, lol)? If you can do well both covert and fight parts, then yes - it can be overpowered (unless the price is a billion isk, ooops, lol it is!). But currently Covert Ops is pretty much suck both at covert ops, and at combat. Well, maybe only Amarr Black Ops is comparable to T1 battleships at combat... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.05 23:03:00 - [268] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 20:41:02 Originally by: Takashi Setsu Originally by: Cailais Where are all these 'farmers' flying Black Ops BS??? Trying to imply cov ops cloak = farmers is rubbish: trying to drum up support against cover ops cloaks being an option by appealing to the anti-farmer lobby. C. They are waiting for CCP to give them covert ops cloaks... Black Ops are too weak to farm with them. Wake up. T1 are better, not to count marauders. Sorry bro, I'm gonna have to call BS on you here. With t2 sentries the Sin is a farming machine. With COC it would be nigh on invulerable.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.05 23:07:00 - [269] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Black Ops are too weak to farm with them. Wake up. T1 are better, not to count marauders. Sorry bro, I'm gonna have to call BS on you here. With t2 sentries the Sin is a farming machine. With COC it would be nigh on invulerable. Isn't the Dominix better, eh? And all farmers will still use Navy Ravens and Golems. Wake up. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.05 23:09:00 - [270] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 05/04/2009 23:16:01 Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 05/04/2009 23:10:16 Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 23:08:17 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Black Ops are too weak to farm with them. Wake up. T1 are better, not to count marauders. Sorry bro, I'm gonna have to call BS on you here. With t2 sentries the Sin is a farming machine. With COC it would be nigh on invulerable. Isn't the Dominix with cloak better, eh? And all farmers will still use (Navy) Ravens and Golems. Wake up. Ok. I've never seen an isk farmer fly a Golem unless he was runnig high sec missions. In 0.0 it is 99% Domi's and Ravens. Edit: And I'm talking about these ships using COC, not in thier current state. Also the Sin has no need of tank to 0.0 rat, the rats put off crap for dps anyway. It can tank anything a belt throws with one repper, and has a jump drive and a cloak to spare.

rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.05 23:16:00 - [271] Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 23:22:55 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Ok. I've never seen an isk farmer fly a Golem unless he was runnig high sec missions. In 0.0 it is 99% Domi's and Ravens. Edit: And I'm talking about these ships using COC, not in thier current state. I just consider highsec missions as another form of farming. I do not see how COC make Sin better farmer compared to Dominix or Golem in that case. As for why we do not see alot of Golems at belt farming, it is easy: Cost. Very expensive to lose. And with belt farming you will lose your ship sooner or later. It IS dangerous. No concord to save you. Thats another reason why we will not see Black Ops farming - their cost is too much, same with Marauders. And you cannot fully use this lovely COC while hunting in belt. You are being targeted by rats (oh noes!) or being near object (****!), or by clever decloaked hunter, or by interdictor who put you out of cloak after putting a bubble on you. Or even if you got disconnected from game. By the way, it is pretty easy to kill Recons and even Covert Ops jumping throgh the gate in 0.0. With hunter fitted Black Ops you do not even really need a bubble. Plenty of ways to lose your ship. ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mors Magne M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.05 23:22:00 - [272] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 20:59:16 Originally by: Mors Magne Edited by: Mors Magne on 05/04/2009 16:35:16 Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 14:47:37 Please change 5% hybrid damage of a Sin (and Dominix) to something actually usefull. These ships are rarely fit with these anyway. Thanks. If BOs are to distroy cyno jammers, fitting blasters would be a good idea. However, if the role of BOs is versus ships, I agree - a nos/neut bonus would be best. Do you know how many HP cynojammers have? More then 16 Millions. I severely doubt you can gather so many black ops so you can effectively siege a pos for so long. You'll need to kill cynojammer fast... very fast. Or youll be wiped out with conventional fleet ;) And i still do not understand HOW black ops can attack a fully armed pos. Kamikaze style? ;) No point to fit these blasters. Yes, I agree. In order to take out a cyno jammer (like the Devs want) a BO would have hack the cyno jammer to death. They would have to do it in such a way that the POS defences count for nothing. So SBs cannot have a role here. The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out!
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.05 23:47:00 - [273] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 05/04/2009 23:47:02 Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 23:33:24 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Ok. I've never seen an isk farmer fly a Golem unless he was runnig high sec missions. In 0.0 it is 99% Domi's and Ravens. Edit: And I'm talking about these ships using COC, not in thier current state. I just consider highsec missions as another form of farming. I do not see how COC make Sin better farmer compared to Dominix or Raven/Golem in that case. As for why we do not see alot of Golems at belt farming, it is easy: Cost. Very expensive to lose. And with belt farming you will lose your ship sooner or later. It IS dangerous. No concord to save you. Thats another reason why we will not see Black Ops farming - their cost is too much, same with Marauders. And you cannot fully use this lovely COC while hunting in belt. You are being targeted by rats (oh noes!) or being near object (****!), or by clever decloaked hunter, or by interdictor who put you out of cloak after putting a bubble on you. Or even if you got disconnected from game. By the way, it is pretty easy to kill Recons and even Covert Ops jumping throgh the gate in 0.0. With farming fitted Black Ops you do not even really need a bubble. Plenty of ways to lose your ship. ;) You are misunderstanding one very important point. Professional isk farmers rat aligned. Meaning that the moment they see local pop the warp to a safe spot or a planet. When chasing a ship that cannot cloak there is a slim chance you can find the planet it is warping to with the directional scanner, warp there and decloak it. It is difficult but I have done it. With a COC equipped ship this is impossible. It cannot be scanned once it enters warp and activates it's cloak. I can't believe that you would argue that a COC equipped ship is as easy to capture as it's T1 counter part.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.05 23:52:00 - [274] Edited by: rgreat on 05/04/2009 23:57:18 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn You are misunderstanding one very important point. Professional isk farmers rat aligned. Meaning that the moment they see local pop the warp to a safe spot or a planet. When chasing a ship that cannot cloak there is a slim chance you can find the planet it is warping to with the directional scanner, warp there and decloak it. It is difficult but I have done it. With a COC equipped ship this is impossible. It cannot be scanned once it enters warp and activates it's cloak. Only dumb farmers warp out to planets. These will die anyway.. even with COC. Warp to POS or to a safe spot near object you align to. If you do that - no real difference if you have COC or simple T1 cloak. Quote: I can't believe that you would argue that a COC equipped ship is as easy to capture as it's T1 counter part. Maybe you limited expirience with these? Are you ever hunted chinese raven farmer guilds? I did. ;) I play this game for a long time... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mean McCrabby	Posted - 2009.04.06 06:31:00 - [275] I was extremely disappointed with my widow when I got it. Please make the following adjustments.. Fuel Bay I should be able to jump in a small fleet of HACS and Recons in one go. Defense and Firepower Both are lacking severely. The widow locks too slowly to do ecm support, so it needs significantly higher defenses, and firepower, or it needs corrections to make it perform like a big falcon (lock speed/range/ecm bonus) If its paper thin then it needs great ecm. Or skip the ecm and make it able to slug it out close range if needed. Covert ops cloak All the BO ships should have covert ops ability. When you hear "black operations" you think this will be some evil stuff... but you get a targeting delay (lose kills) and have to decloak to warp, and when you warp into trouble and are uncloaked, someone MWDs into you the moment you cloak anyway. They need covert ops cloak, period!!! Long jump range Self explanatory. All in all, you guys did a terrible job designing these ships. Please make them worth the 600+ million isk they cost!!! Not to mention all the training time. Please do not make the falcon a brawler either. And please make stealths able to fire a bomb every 10 seconds, and make bombs cost a couple mil, and make them harder to shoot down. Problem solved.
Jomanda Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.04.06 08:42:00 - [276] Originally by: Mors Magne To hack POS defenses (at hacking V) so it can take out cyno jammers This will never be feasable, only a handfull of gun batteries and a warp disruptor will be enough to ensure your BO wont be able to finish the hacking cycle. Using BO ships against anything POS related is pure madness! They dont have the tank or dps required to be anywhere near effective for that. And giving them either of those, will make the BO horribly overpowered. Any BO pilot that does use his BO against a POS fully deserves to lose his 600 mil ship. So pls stop talking about BO as if they stand any chance against posses, let alone anti-battleship cynojammer posses! Their role is to operate covertly, behind enemy lines using hit and run tactics. They need a fuel bay They need to be able to jump into cynojammed systems They need to have their jump fuel consumption reduced They need to have their bridge fuel consumtion reduced They need to have the bridge fuel consumed from the bridging ships They may need to have their jump range extended They may need to have 3rd gun bonusses added for the Panther and Sin, and have the Sin changed to a megathron hull, as was discussed earlier. They do not need anything else at this time.
McEivalley Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2009.04.06 09:24:00 - [277] Originally by: Dr Resheph Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. More like: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. ..DDD warp pod to safe wait for aggro timer log out Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system It's not contested until the enemy sees your blob trying to take out a jammer first. The reason why that trick won't work is because Bombers can't cloak when they're all clustered together like that. The more people in gang or on the battlefield, the more likely you're getting locked. In the context of POS guns that's instadeath. With a bit of thinking, you could probably have the SB pilots warp out before the DD (they are frigates after all, earning you a free titan pos bump), and regarding the initial cluster-fark, a little brains for warping from different locations at various ranges could solve the matter. The only real problem here is (and always was) the sad range of the torpedoes. Do - don't die trying.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.04.06 11:28:00 - [278] Originally by: McEivalley Originally by: Dr Resheph Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. More like: Safe the BO @36AU safe spot. warp 25 bombers 30km off jammer. cloak. ..DDD warp pod to safe wait for aggro timer log out Sorry, but only the most naive would seriously think BO has a chance of taking on a cyno jammer in contested system It's not contested until the enemy sees your blob trying to take out a jammer first. The reason why that trick won't work is because Bombers can't cloak when they're all clustered together like that. The more people in gang or on the battlefield, the more likely you're getting locked. In the context of POS guns that's instadeath. With a bit of thinking, you could probably have the SB pilots warp out before the DD (they are frigates after all, earning you a free titan pos bump), and regarding the initial cluster-fark, a little brains for warping from different locations at various ranges could solve the matter. The only real problem here is (and always was) the sad range of the torpedoes. Torpedos have a nice range now. 60 km with javs. The main problem is the STUPID cov ops cloak that made us loose all the cloaked mobility and a stupidly long recloak timer.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.06 13:00:00 - [279] Edited by: Baudolino on 06/04/2009 13:01:34 As CCP is not clear about what role the BO is supposed to fill and the players disagree, I want to throw out some different roles and bonuses- some ideas for what the ships and future of covert ops could be.. Universal changes (regardless of role) According to Fulbert: - decrease the fuel consumption amount base from 400 to 300 or less + increase the cargohold size from 600m3 to 1000m3 + give black ops a skill bonus for jump fuel consumption + let the jumpportal draw its fuel from the jumping ships (recons, covert, etc.) cargo and not from the BO themselves. and these: +improve scan resolution +improve jump range +allow for cloaked activation of covert cyno Black ops roles 1. Heavy Covert Ops +Increase cloaked velocity to 200%/lvl +Allow for covert ops cloak +keep all other stats 2. Close range brawler -remove cloaked velocity bonus +increase resistances from 12.5% to 25% above tech I versions -remove fitting penalties on cloaking device -all BO get one of the following bonuses *ECM burst bonus 40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill) 20% strength pr lvl (5% pr lvl on specialization skill) *Smartbomb bonus 40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill) 20% strength pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill) *Cap neutralization pulse (240 sec cycle time) 6km base range, 2500 cap activation, 3000 cap neutralized 40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill) 10% amount pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill) *Propulsion neutralization pulse (240sec cycle time) 6km base range, deactivates MWD+AB, duration 10sec 40% range pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill) 20% duraton pr lvl (5% pr lvl extra on specialization skill) 3. Mid range gang support +improve resistances from 12.5% to 50% above tech I hulls +BO can fit 3 ganglinks +BO command processor (gives 20% bonus to fitted ganglinks) +bonus to remote rep and shield transfer (range and amount) +Introduce Black ops mindlink 7.5% bonus to armor and shield hitpoints 50% bonus to ANY ganglinks fitted 4. A mix of the above 5. None of the above Also i have suggestions for improvements for covert warfare: New modules (exluding those suggested above) *Covert Projected warp beacon module +High slot module that can be activated while cloaked. Generates a warpable beacon (for gang) on target location. (works in mission locations as well) Covert projected Cyno module +works same as projected warp beacon* I think people see where i`m going here. Please comment and add some ideas of your own. The entire concept of covert and skirmish warfare seems to be under revisement.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.06 14:45:00 - [280] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 06/04/2009 14:52:11 Yes, the role of the BO is the key here. I'll keep my point of view short and sweet. Search and Destroy Operations (with a gang of SBs and Recons): 1: Obviously, providing the bridge to get the group there. 2: Since the SB's are providing damage to the large targets, and Recons are providing EW, the BO ship could fill a very interesting role if its attack capabilities were focused on being an anti-support/anti-tackler ship. In this role the BO would be the guardian angel of the covert group. Uncloaking when smaller craft are closing on the main group and attacking with ship abilities focused on dealing with smaller, faster ships quickly... preferably from range. In this role the BO could add modest fire support to the main target when possible, but would not be over-powered in damage. However they could easily provide much needed survivability if the groups target has support that needs to be dealt with. This would give it a much needed role in this type of operation. Additionally, we really don't currently have a Battleship class with bonus's specifically designed to deal with smaller craft. Considering its price and skill requirements I think that the BO would be rare enough to fill that role without unbalancing the value of support craft. It would also make the addition of a BO to a conventional attack force well worth considering and make them much more useful in general. Lone Wolf Operations: If the BO were geared specifically for taking out smaller targets, this would provide immense amusement for those that like to operate solo behind enemy lines. Drawing out and destroying tacklers could be made into an art form by these pilots. Anti-Cyno Operations: Obviously, some sort of ability to "hack" a Cyno Jammer is extremely overpowered. It completely removes the value of having a Cyno Jammer in system. Taking out the Cyno Jammer should be done through damage, and I still believe specialized bombs that do immense damage to anchored (or possibly even caps in Siege Mode) is the most viable solution. Particularly if those bombs are huge and require resupply from a nearby Blockade Runner. For this role obviously the Covert Bridge is the BO's most valuable ability. And if it retains the ability to have a speed boost while cloaked it has value for providing different warp in points around the field (in addition to any Recons or Covert Ops frigates it brought with it). I doubt it would be useful in an anti-support role in this situation however, as the POS will be able to target it too quickly in most cases for it to be able to take out support and re-cloak. No, it this case it would be better off playing more of a logistical role. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.

Crimsonjade Amarr Secret Service	Posted - 2009.04.06 15:46:00 - [281] Good to hear your working on them. But please for the love of all that is holy(Velsdpar ofc) Dont just make these have bonuses for Pos take downs. The name implys Nasty bad people aka Pirates here in eve, so pls pls pls give us something that IS incredible . Jump Range is Badly needed upped. amount of fuel required needs lowered, Covert ops cloak maybe is almost required for its role. Maybe more of a Covert commandship role possibly. BUT with the abilty to use all the mods it would require. Tech 2 resist are needed, its a tech 2 BS and requires something along the lines to show it is superior to a t1 BS. aww dammit now im gonna be on the test server :/ and was starting to love the WH stuff :P ps: some Dev needs to take this up as a crusade ( TomB) :P everyone isnt afraid of these ships... and thats a shame
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.06 17:48:00 - [282] Originally by: Ranger 1 Search and Destroy Operations (with a gang of SBs and Recons): Lone Wolf Operations: Anti-Cyno Jammer Operations: Exactly. Define the role first. The attributes will follow logically. The way I see it there's: Solo hunter-killer work: Needs a cov ops cloak, gank and tank. Jump range isn't a big deal. Neither is a fuel bay. Large fleet support: Needs to be able to jump into cyno-jammed systems. Jump range isn't a big deal here but being able to bring more and larger ships through the covert portal is. Guerilla fleet logistics: Needs fuel bay and jump range improvements. Probably not so much damage dealing. Maybe remote repair bonuses. Need to be able to move smaller ships longer distances. Sovereignty Defense: Needs to be able to link to jump bridges. Extra-long range jump portal abilities. Maybe cov ops cloak. I'm personally a fan of the guerilla fleet logistics role. Moving gangs of small ships very quickly. I think this works because it not only gives a clear role to the Black Ops ship but it gives people a new reason to fly assault frigates (if they're allowed through the portal) as well as ewar ships and stealth bombers. This is a role that's clearly missing and so I think it would be great to see CCP address this. I don't think we need another uber solo hunter ship. HACs and force recons work just fine in these roles and so I'm not a real fan of the cov ops cloak on the black ops.
Marlona Sky Astroglide X The Foray Project	Posted - 2009.04.06 19:35:00 - [283] I still think electronic attack ships should be allowed to take the covert jump bridge. EAS are so ultra rarely used. This would give these ships a new lease on life. And yes, I know they would do what force recons do but come on, they are like a diet version of force recons. CCP?
Waxau Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2009.04.06 20:31:00 - [284] K. Might i be somewhat obvious if i pointed out that CCP dont want this ship overpowered? EG. For every boost we want, we need to come up with a nerf. As such, here is mine: Covert ops cloak. Downside - Cant fit the jump portal at the same time. Side effect of this? You cant go pewpewing everyone and portaling at the same time. One role at a time, like that of carriers. Either uber reppage triage, or fighters. Rajere - Without highlighting you out too much, id simply like to reitterate what has been said before. The fact that only 3 corps actively pvp in them to any real degree is evidence in itself. I know of more corps that field motherships/carriers as their main ships, than corps who even USE black ops slightly, let alone in any real sense of the word black ops. You might have found a use for them, but let me ask you this. When CCP made destroyers, did they see them becoming salvager ships? Your style of warfare is very very very very very niche based. Its easily 'beaten/expoitable (in a non-EULA breaking manner ofcourse), and has boredom associated with it. EVE is a game, meant for fun. Wheres the fun in a ship that isnt fun to fly? As stated but Sig, a covert ops cloak would make the ship fun. It would make it interesting to fly. And for those who think the cloak adds nothing to the combat nature of it....lack of scan res penalty, ability to warp cloaked, thus ability to position itself with stealth, pvp in stealth, and set up traps in stealth. The second you are on scan, you lose ANY stealth. Everyone in local knows what you fly, and generally knows where you are. And to actually pvp someone, you need to know where they are, and what theyre doing. To do that, you need to be on grid. To do that, you need to warp there uncloaked. Finally, Thanks CCP Chronotis for the changes so far. The issue imo is with the ships itself, rather than the fuel bay, but its getting there, no doubt of that.
Vall Kor Minmatar ZipZoom Kaboom	Posted - 2009.04.06 20:32:00 - [285] Originally by: Marlona Sky I still think electronic attack ships should be allowed to take the covert jump bridge. EAS are so ultra rarely used. This would give these ships a new lease on life. And yes, I know they would do what force recons do but come on, they are like a diet version of force recons. CCP? EA ships really need some love too. The T1 EW cruisers have a much better isk to performance ratio than EA ships.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:12:00 - [286] Originally by: Vall Kor Originally by: Marlona Sky I still think electronic attack ships should be allowed to take the covert jump bridge. EAS are so ultra rarely used. This would give these ships a new lease on life. And yes, I know they would do what force recons do but come on, they are like a diet version of force recons. CCP? EA ships really need some love too. The T1 EW cruisers have a much better isk to performance ratio than EA ships. Agreed. I gave them a healthy go, but finally stopped flying them. I really figured that maybe they were more geared as a stepping stone, but I can't get past the point you just made. ===== Yeah, VC is back, and we have a bone to pick with you.
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:34:00 - [287] Originally by: Rajere Jump range: carrier wins, if this was a category to consider, but it's not. "guys, lets hide our carriers 40 jumps away, they'll never see it coming. " "dude, they've only got 1 scout and he's sitting 1 system out watching the gate. We don't need to hide anything." "Nah man, we gotta do this right. i'm gonna move my cyno alt the 40 jumps so we can get in position, afk 30 min, hopefully that raven will still be ratting when I get back!" Now, if only you read the second part of that, the part where higher jump range = larger hunting grounds. Thanks to a little detail of geometry, any increase in jump range produces a massive increase in potential targets. Quote: DPS: Black Ops wins. Even if the Carrier is triple sensor boosted which it wouldn't be (this was in case he needed to rep the cyno rupture), it will still deal less damage than a Panther on a tackled, BS+ sized target. Against anything smaller the Carrier's DPS is non-existent. Sorry, you're wrong. Black ops dps with max skills, 3x damage mods, overheat, is below 1200 dps. A carrier can easily beat that. And as for smaller targets, you do know you can use drones other than fighters, right? As for your killmail: lol. So what if you out-damaged a carrier in one fight? What were the carrier pilot's skills? Who loaded the new system first? Oh, and if a lol-fit Dominix is your idea of an awesome black ops kill, I think that's a pretty obvious concession that the ships need fixing. Quote: Remote tank: This is a category how? If this category comes into play, it's because you're losing your entire carrier gang to a massive blob, all because you were determined to hotdrop ratters with Carriers. Let's see... maybe you don't want to lose your expensive cyno recon, maybe you want to kill the trap instead of running away from everything that could shoot back? Quote: Lock time: Black Ops win by a huge margin, locking nearly twice as fast as carriers. Carrier would require 3x SBs to have a higher scan res than a Black Ops, which you could argue that allows carriers to win this category, at the cost of failing that much harder in the "Escape time" and "Trap Vulnerability" categories, due to having no cap regen. I'll even ignore the fact that since you have no cloak your carrier cannot even consider jumping into the kind of hostile systems that BOs excel in, since your carrier loss would be guaranteed. Hint: 2x sensor boosters are standard on most carrier fits. And your average carrier, even with sensor boosters, will have a faster cap recharge time than a black ops, without even counting the black ops' need to use cap in the fight. Quote: Escape time: Blackops absolute win this one, no question. 4 seconds. That's how long it takes a blackops to align out and enter warp. It takes the carrier 25-30seconds to even align. Blackops also have faster jump out time, with a complete recharge fit the carrier can get close, but is still about 2minutes slower than the BOs. Who cares if you can align in 4 seconds when you can't KILL in 4 seconds? Both ships will be aligned before the target dies, so it's a draw. PS: try using a non-fail carrier fit. A standard combat-fit Chimera has a shorter cap recharge time than any combat-fit black ops. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:38:00 - [288] Originally by: Rajere Trap vulnerability: Black Ops win by a total landslide victory here, and this is the killer. The moment the trap is sprung, Anything short of a cloaked dictor in bubble range of the bait decloaking and bubbling everyone, and the blackops are gone, in warp to a safe and immediately cloaking up, meanwhile the carriers still have 20 seconds left before they are aligned to warp out, and they start getting tackled. Even if there is a cloaked bubble, the BOs much faster velocity with MWD Pulse + cloak means they should be able to escape, though its possible they may lose 1 BO. The Cloaked bubble gurantees the death of the entire carrier gang. Translation: anything short of the most obvious way of trapping a black ops, and the black ops escapes. Or if, you know, the bait decides to lock all of the black ops and turn off their cloaks. PS: a cloaked interdictor only guarantees the death of a carrier gang if the interdictor is backed up by a gang capable of KILLING the carriers. Since a carrier gang will laugh at traps that will massacre a black ops gang, I think I'd rather have the carriers. Quote: Cost to Use: An important category you like to forget, Black Ops win. In order to hotdrop targets in hostile space you must be able to avoid camps/blobs while traveling through their space, find the target, get in position, tackle it, and then you can light a cyno. That combination means your cyno ship must be a force recon. BO jump through via an invisible, 30 second cyno. Carriers jump through via a system wide, 5 minute cyno, your cyno ship is going to die. You lose 120mil ISK for every t1 fit raven you kill. Unless, you know, you put some remote reps on your cyno ship... Besides, weren't you the one talking about how awesome black ops are because you can kill a target while its closest backup is 15 minutes away? You know, I think you were... ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:40:00 - [289] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Vall Kor Originally by: Marlona Sky I still think electronic attack ships should be allowed to take the covert jump bridge. EAS are so ultra rarely used. This would give these ships a new lease on life. And yes, I know they would do what force recons do but come on, they are like a diet version of force recons. CCP? EA ships really need some love too. The T1 EW cruisers have a much better isk to performance ratio than EA ships. Agreed. I gave them a healthy go, but finally stopped flying them. I really figured that maybe they were more geared as a stepping stone, but I can't get past the point you just made. Again, giving the black ops portal the ability to move any frigate class hull (EA, AF, cov ops & stealth bomber) will help give all these ships a role that they currently don't have. If a Black Ops could move a bunch of these ships 6 - 10 jumps in a blink it would really make all of these ships useful. Black Ops needs a role. Tech II frigates need a role. Match made in heaven! Everybody wins!
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.04.06 21:42:00 - [290] Oh, and as for the idea of a covops cloak helping "farmers" (IOW: anyone killing NPCs and not instantly exploding as soon as we enter local)? Sorry, but that's just pure lol. A covops cloak is an offensive weapon, if all you want to do is hide from scan probes, a T1 cloak will work just fine. The only reason you need the covops cloak is if you need the cloaked warping and short recalibration delay to kill a PvP target. A covops black ops would be a terrible ship for "farmers", since it would be no more effective than a Raven, but have a much higher price tag. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!

Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.06 23:10:00 - [291] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/04/2009 23:15:35 Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/04/2009 23:12:47 The COC crowd is having a hard time looking past their desire for a cov ops BS and looking at reality of what COC means for the Black Ops. COC would almost certianly come with a dps reduction. Why do we need a BS sized recon? That is the question you guys are avoiding. Yes, you want it. "Black Ops are broken without it". Still, no one has given a valid arguement as to why the ship needs it enough to justify the inevitable nerfs that will come with it. Would I like to a cov ops ship that can do 800+ dps? Hell yes! Is such a thing imbalanced? Absolutely. I for one would like to use this ship to fight, not sneak around with my COC and do 300+ dps. As a dedicated pilgrim pilot, I am not anti-COC, I just believe that the Black Ops doesn't need one. The pilgrim does everything (short of portaling) that COC Black Ops could and does it better. Edit: spellingz
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.04.06 23:25:00 - [292] Why do we need a BS-sized recon? Ask CCP, they're the ones who came up with the idea of black ops. The class really wasn't needed in the first place (jump bridge could easily be on a T2 industrial or whatever), but if we're going to have a cloaking battleship, it needs to be done *right*. Oh, and 300 dps? Yeah, right. A gun Pilgrim can easily do 450 dps, so I don't think full battleship-level dps would be unbalanced. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.06 23:45:00 - [293] Originally by: Sera Ryskin Why do we need a BS-sized recon? Ask CCP, they're the ones who came up with the idea of black ops. The class really wasn't needed in the first place (jump bridge could easily be on a T2 industrial or whatever)... Black ops smells like something that was created to alleviate gate lag in fleet engagements by providing an alternate method for entering a target system.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.07 03:41:00 - [294] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Would I like to a cov ops ship that can do 800+ dps? Yes. Quote: Is such a thing imbalanced? No. Quote: I for one would like to use this ship to fight, not sneak around with my COC and do 300+ dps. As a dedicated pilgrim pilot, I am not anti-COC, I just believe that the Black Ops doesn't need one. The pilgrim does everything (short of portaling) that COC Black Ops could and does it better. It is only yours idea that if BO get COC it must be nerfed even more as a combat platform. It is already near the edge of uselessnes as a heavy hitter and tanker. Noone will fly them in combat if they got nerfed more. Even if CCP add alot of fancy covert stuff to them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.04.07 11:36:00 - [295] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/04/2009 23:15:35 Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 06/04/2009 23:12:47 The COC crowd is having a hard time looking past their desire for a cov ops BS and looking at reality of what COC means for the Black Ops. COC would almost certianly come with a dps reduction. Why do we need a BS sized recon? That is the question you guys are avoiding. Yes, you want it. "Black Ops are broken without it". Still, no one has given a valid arguement as to why the ship needs it enough to justify the inevitable nerfs that will come with it. Would I like to a cov ops ship that can do 800+ dps? Hell yes! Is such a thing imbalanced? Absolutely. I for one would like to use this ship to fight, not sneak around with my COC and do 300+ dps. As a dedicated pilgrim pilot, I am not anti-COC, I just believe that the Black Ops doesn't need one. The pilgrim does everything (short of portaling) that COC Black Ops could and does it better. Edit: spellingz The question thats been asked again and again, with no real answer from the anti covert cloak lobby, is this: If you demand top end BS-level damage, why is there any need to fly a black ops? If you just want to gank stuff, thats fine. But almost any other ship is as good if not better, and almost certianly cheaper. With the upcoming bomber changes, SBs will be the ones doing the damage in covert gangs, so black ops honestly won't NEED to do a great deal of damage, and that means we can give them some more interesting bonuses. I'd LOVE to see black ops being ANYTHING other than just a gank ship. Something with some subtlety and finesse.
DOARota Gallente BURN EDEN Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.07 12:50:00 - [296] The added scan res is good, as well as the added cargo bay and slightly reduced fuel consumption. Now that they can jump into jammed systems the only thing left is to say good job CCP, it does exactly what it's description says it does. A fuel bay down the road would be great, but nothing else.Not even a cup holder.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.07 14:32:00 - [297] Edited by: rgreat on 07/04/2009 14:32:24 Originally by: Katarlia Simov I'd LOVE to see black ops being ANYTHING other than just a gank ship. Something with some subtlety and finesse. Thats fine by me, but i think 'subtlety and finesse' are quite lacking for now. Current Black ops do not really have a role. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.07 18:31:00 - [298] Originally by: DOARota The added scan res is good, as well as the added cargo bay and slightly reduced fuel consumption. Now that they can jump into jammed systems the only thing left is to say good job CCP, it does exactly what it's description says it does. A fuel bay down the road would be great, but nothing else.Not even a cup holder. They still need balance betweenthem. Just compare redeemer and panther. Redeemer has more HP, More firepower, more range on weapons more effective cargo space to fuel... panther on other hand is 1.7% faster.. WOOOOOW!!!
Ms Massacre Amarr	Posted - 2009.04.07 18:50:00 - [299] Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: DOARota The added scan res is good, as well as the added cargo bay and slightly reduced fuel consumption. Now that they can jump into jammed systems the only thing left is to say good job CCP, it does exactly what it's description says it does. A fuel bay down the road would be great, but nothing else.Not even a cup holder. They still need balance betweenthem. Just compare redeemer and panther. Redeemer has more HP, More firepower, more range on weapons more effective cargo space to fuel... panther on other hand is 1.7% faster.. WOOOOOW!!! ... but speed is life! nurf panthor!
termite156	Posted - 2009.04.07 19:19:00 - [300] Would like to see these changes. 1. When the bridge first came out we were jumping combat recons thru the bridge. This got changed can we have it back. 2. Please lower the fuel cost for ships going thru the bridge. 3.RE-Think the Black OPS bonus all together. Get creative agility is not creative for the SIN. 4. If fuel usage for the bridge does not come down can we have it use liquid OZ instead. That way we are not using our jships jumping fuel to my our black ops gang.

Lord Eremet	Posted - 2009.04.07 23:03:00 - [301] Black Ops are infiltration vessels, right? Ships designed primarily to do espionage and sabotage behind enemy lines. So why don't they do justice to the name and let you be invisible in local? If you are a Black Ops in hostile space then you likely did not enter through a gate but used a covert cyno to get in and therefore you should not show up in local. Only players in normal ships and pods should show up in local because they get registered by New Edens gate network. Then you can sit there cloaked in your safe and gather intel about the locals, and maybe wait for a opportunity to take out a weak undefended target by yourself, or a bigger one if you are a group. However to not let this become overpowered and thus broken the second you take action against a target your local invisibility should be blown and remain so until you decide to leave system or get destroyed. Combine the no local + the idea to let Black Ops be able to cyno into a cyno jammed system and suddenly you have a very powerful ship class well worth its high price. Also, I agree with people saying that it does NOT need a covert ops cloak. They should not become battleship-sized stealth recons. People need to wrap their heads around that just because they fail to use it correctly it does not mean it is broken. Just look at No Trademark and Burn Eden. Don't tell me you are to dense to mimic their operations. And no I'm not a alt of either...
Little Fistter Caldari Highlander Guard	Posted - 2009.04.07 23:32:00 - [302] You know, many Eve players are soloers. I have been in corps and alliances, and most group activities are a waste of time. I always end up logging off and playing an alt while a dozen guys argue about whether to gate camp or roam. So I trained Maurauders and Black Ops, thinking one of these would allow me to solo in 0.0 space. However, both ship classes are so pre-nerfed that they are useless without support. Add to that the prestige ot a Maurauder or Black Ops kill, which seems to bring PvPers out of the woodwork, and all the poor soloer gets is an expensive target. Please, for the soloers among us, who need a BS that can work with a cloak, please make a ship that can cloak and fight without fleet support. I could care less about jumping or especially covert jumping.. I just want to rat in 0.0 and have a chance against the rats and not be grist for the PvP mill. Now I know there is a lot of people who like the fraternal play style, and I do not mean to reduce their fun. But quit making us soloers the targets, give us a chance. That said, I have an agenda for changing Black Ops into a soloer dream ship. If I see PvPers in local, I want to cloak and wait till they leave. However, the cloak nerfs my targeting, meaning the rats get 25-30 seconds to pound on me before I get off my first shot. I am not asking for an I Win button, but please quit designing ships that require fleet support to use. Right now, the best ship for 0.0 ratting is a Raven with cruise launchers. However, with a cloak its far less effective. Can we have a special Maurauder-Black Ops class, minus the jump engine but with the cloak benefits? Thank you, Little Fistter DEVS! Please a small color indicator upon jump gate icon that shows color of the system security rating of the destination system in the overview and in the HUD view. Little Fistter
Gregore Jandori Caldari Ice-Storm	Posted - 2009.04.07 23:52:00 - [303] Please, CCP - this ship screams for a CovOps cloak. At this point, it's simply not a viable covert predator or fleet boat, and needs something to help protect it when it's inevitably called primary... I think we'll see far more of these on the battlefield if you give them more survivability.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.08 04:50:00 - [304] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 07/04/2009 05:37:37 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Would I like to a cov ops ship that can do 800+ dps? Yes. Quote: Is such a thing imbalanced? No. Quote: Arazu can do more damage than a Sin arguement ? Sorry to burst your bubble but I have sin set up that does 538 dps with t2 sentries and no guns, that is far more than any Arazu in game can do. Toss in some nuets and it is a battleship sized pilgrim that does literally double and then some dps. My Redeemer can easily do 850+. No matter what you want to believe this is not balanced, no matter how awesome it would be, with a COC.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.08 05:21:00 - [305] Originally by: Lord Eremet ...why don't they do justice to the name and let you be invisible in local? Any time you have an idea like this think forward to what an alliance like BoB (now Kenny) would do with it. 500 completely invisible battleships in your sov space is game-breaking.
Lord Eremet	Posted - 2009.04.08 09:01:00 - [306] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Lord Eremet ...why don't they do justice to the name and let you be invisible in local? Any time you have an idea like this think forward to what an alliance like BoB (now Kenny) would do with it. 500 completely invisible battleships in your sov space is game-breaking. 500 black ops battleships that cost 600+ mil each, maybe eight hundred with a decent setup, that tank less then a normal t1 battleship and will die even easier to some serious dps. Ya I'm sure that is realistic to imagine 500 black ops in your homesystems And lol at bringing in BoB in the discusion to why it would be gamebreaking...
Pboyt	Posted - 2009.04.08 12:30:00 - [307] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Lord Eremet ...why don't they do justice to the name and let you be invisible in local? Any time you have an idea like this think forward to what an alliance like BoB (now Kenny) would do with it. 500 completely invisible battleships in your sov space is game-breaking. This. Its the mostly ridiculous idea to allow players in a system without them appearing in local - it will NEVER happen. People would stop playing eve in 0.0 - they would be too paranoid to rat, mess around, pvp ... ANYTHING. You would NEVER know if there were 50 cloaked black-ops battleships right ontop of your face. SO please... dont suggest stupid ideas like this that would completely ruin the game. Though Im sure CCP laughed at your suggestion as much as I did. If CCP WERE to ever allow people into a system without letting them appear in local it would be for players in a very very very weak vessel such as a covert ops or equivalent frigate vessel that would pose minimal and/or NO threat. That way people in 0.0 could still feel safe to PLAY THE F**KING GAME in their own home systems without fearing that they would be ganked by invisible fleets in local. Sigh, it annoys me when people dont think before they speak.
Attrezzo Pox Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.08 12:39:00 - [308] Originally by: Captain Vampire Cloak for these ships, covops or not, is next to useless with the instant local in 0.0. I assume the design role of black ops ships are to enter hostile space undetected and bring firepower/ewar capabilities to a greater extent than their cruiser counterparts. The concept is awesome and very interesting, but it is pretty much impossible to achieve this per se due to local. Improving the ships with a fuel bay and the ability to jump to cynojammed systems will improve the "fun/buck" ratio, but the black ops ships (and their cruiser counterparts in lesser extent) will not really fill their designated role until delayed local is introduced in 0.0. Originally by: Pboyt Originally by: Ahz Any time you have an idea like this think forward to what an alliance like BoB (now Kenny) would do with it. 500 completely invisible battleships in your sov space is game-breaking. This. Its the mostly ridiculous idea to allow players in a system without them appearing in local - it will NEVER happen. People would stop playing eve in 0.0 - they would be too paranoid to rat, mess around, pvp ... ANYTHING. You would NEVER know if there were 50 cloaked black-ops battleships right ontop of your face. SO please... dont suggest stupid ideas like this that would completely ruin the game. Though Im sure CCP laughed at your suggestion as much as I did. If CCP WERE to ever allow people into a system without letting them appear in local it would be for players in a very very very weak vessel such as a covert ops or equivalent frigate vessel that would pose minimal and/or NO threat. That way people in 0.0 could still feel safe to PLAY THE F**KING GAME in their own home systems without fearing that they would be ganked by invisible fleets in local. Sigh, it annoys me when people dont think before they speak. I don't see why this is a bad suggestion. Overpowered, maybe if it was perpetual, but in wormhole space that's what local is like right now. People still go there even with the idea that there if someone comes into that space after you they will CERTAINLY have probing capabilities. I think it would be a reasonable compromise to allow covert ops a certain amount of time before showing in local, or set up a module that drastically increases scan resolution when active and pulls you out of local. This is not "game ruining", it's just that all you scared little carebears wouldn't be able to rat alone. It's pretty rare to find people ratting alone anyway. Point is there's no surprise when you jump into a system and boom, HEllo LOCAL! HERE I AM STARTING A COVERT CYNO! WE'RE GOING TO GANK YOU KTHX! What is covert about that? There are plenty of ways to balance something that keeps you out of local, that in mind I'm sure the reason CCP might have laughed at this is that it's far more likely that local would be really hard to re-program just for 0.0. But they're obviously toying with the idea in wormhole space. ------------------------- PoX IS Eve!!! BOOM!!!
Attrezzo Pox Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.08 12:52:00 - [309] Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 08/04/2009 12:57:07 On a separate note, I honestly don't see how covert ops (unless there were some changes to "hacking") could have a reasonable effect on a POS. With a strike force of SBs like a previous poster pointed out, you'd get slaughtered before you could make a dent even if you had 50 SBs come with you. And at that point why not just put them in battleships and blob the system. In my mind there's another side effect of being able to blow up a POS with covert ops. You'd be rebuilding the freaking things every day. At that point who needs a capital fleet when you can just jump in with covert ops and take the thing out of the sky. There needs to be a more subtle solution. For instance, A module that can only be fit on recon/black ops and creates a "semi-stable" cyno. It could still be warped to. It would only allow a certain amount of "ship" to pass through. Maybe it costs more than usual to jump to. Maybe you're limited by the number of cynos you have active. A system like this would allow someone with sovereign space plenty of time (provided they were in system) to get over there and put up a fight. At the same time it limits large scale dropping, one black ops/recon is not going to be able to drop an entire fleet of caps into a system. It will take lots of time to trickle them in, unless you have more covert pilots to create more than one cyno. I see something like that as a somewhat fair balance. Jammers still offer a fairly great amount of protection, while at the same time the cost and logistics of getting a recon fleet into their space become worth it, but just enough. Even this though without the local change I see as a short sighted patch. If you gave this without some kind of change to local then you've locked covert/black/recon ops to dropping fleets, the warfare and ew capabilities will be overlooked because you can't surprise anyone ever. So setting a command module that keeps you out of local until you attack, or some junk like that seems like it would keep covert ships useful in small gank fleets to screw with logistics and gather information. Hopefully with a change like that the bil isk price tag seems more reasonable. ------------------------- PoX IS Eve!!! BOOM!!!
Aylara	Posted - 2009.04.08 13:03:00 - [310] BO boost: - better scan resolution and no recalibration delay - less fuel for jump and bridging - increase cargo capacity - double the jump range - increase armor/shield resistances - a slight increase in damage - no COC

Attrezzo Pox Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.08 13:05:00 - [311] Originally by: Pboyt Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Lord Eremet ...why don't they do justice to the name and let you be invisible in local? Any time you have an idea like this think forward to what an alliance like BoB (now Kenny) would do with it. 500 completely invisible battleships in your sov space is game-breaking. This. Its the mostly ridiculous idea to allow players in a system without them appearing in local - it will NEVER happen. People would stop playing eve in 0.0 - they would be too paranoid to rat, mess around, pvp ... ANYTHING. You would NEVER know if there were 50 cloaked black-ops battleships right ontop of your face. SO please... dont suggest stupid ideas like this that would completely ruin the game. Though Im sure CCP laughed at your suggestion as much as I did. If CCP WERE to ever allow people into a system without letting them appear in local it would be for players in a very very very weak vessel such as a covert ops or equivalent frigate vessel that would pose minimal and/or NO threat. That way people in 0.0 could still feel safe to PLAY THE F**KING GAME in their own home systems without fearing that they would be ganked by invisible fleets in local. Sigh, it annoys me when people dont think before they speak. Also please try to be a little more open minded when flaming other people in a forum for any idea. No matter how stupid it seems to you, there's almost always a middle ground and a far better way to argue a point. Surely, removing local entirely is a bad idea (if only because we've grown so dependent on it), but pointing out how much you laughed at it, or blasting profanity at someone's thoughts is just indicative of your inability to deal with change. I don't know any of those other guys but you need to grow up man. Eve is a hard game, when they patch it and nerf something you liked, and they will. I'd put money on you quitting because you can't see past your own ego. Keep that in mind, it might make you a better player. I'm sure this will be removed in an hour but I had to say it. ------------------------- PoX IS Eve!!! BOOM!!!
Lord Eremet	Posted - 2009.04.08 13:18:00 - [312] Originally by: Pboyt *Sigh, it annoys me when people dont think before they speak. /me holds up a mirror for Pboy This is the game development forum where people discuss ideas. Don't like the idea, fine. You could have said that with less words then you did and not react like a fourteen year old. I'm sure CCP are a lot more professional then you, they made the game after all, and it need to continue to evolve and change to stay fresh and recruit new players as old ones quit. Preferably both recruit new players and keep the old ones, but its a fine line. Not everyone will agree with changes but the older players have endured several already and most of them are still here. Maybe a local invisibility would be a to powerful ability for just black ops but I'm certain we will have a No Local in the future when CCP gets around to make a new ship scanning system. People have been asking for that for a long time to make EVE bigger and more risky. So what will you do then, hide in empire? Quit the game?
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.04.08 13:34:00 - [313] I think people this far have very different idea about what blackops really are and what they think they are. blackops is not infiltration ship, it's not that sneaky thing at all, and it shouldn't be. It's a neat ganking machine with cloak so you can afk somewhere. It just is million times too expensive for what it can do, oh and don't forget ****ed scan resolution which starts **ing you off after flying the ship for a bit. I.E. you realise it would be just better to buy battlecruiser, fit a cloak and max dps. In my opinion if ccp would want to make some sneaky infiltration battleship they should design totally new ship class and leave blackops as they are (except reducing price and increasing scan res :p)
Pboyt	Posted - 2009.04.08 16:41:00 - [314] Lol just looked at my own post and was shocked at how heated it was! Whoops - i'll try again. Yea basically I really do think that to stay permanently out of local would be a bad idea just because of the paranoia. Im not a carebear myself im a 100% pvper and I personally love to gank someone with a suprise recon attack as much as the next cloaky player. But there are times when it is just me and a few mates in our home system outside the station or in a belt or something just having a laugh shooting at each other while there are no neuts in local. It can be a fun breather during a time of harsh war with neighbouring alliances and this kind of freedom/relaxation for pilots is important and should not be taken away. To add the thought of there being 'permanent stealthed' enemy battleships around us at all times would destroy all sense of security. Yes, there may be a possible comprimise to the suggestion made and I should not just have flamed the first one suggested! How about the possibly a 'delayed' entry into local for black ops battleships or other ships covert jumping into a system?
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.04.08 19:20:00 - [315] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Lord Eremet ...why don't they do justice to the name and let you be invisible in local? Any time you have an idea like this think forward to what an alliance like BoB (now Kenny) would do with it. 500 completely invisible battleships in your sov space is game-breaking. yeahh because 22 Titans is not game breaking...
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.08 21:22:00 - [316] Originally by: Lord Eremet 500 black ops battleships that cost 600+ mil each, maybe eight hundred with a decent setup, that tank less then a normal t1 battleship and will die even easier to some serious dps. Ya I'm sure that is realistic to imagine 500 black ops in your homesystems And lol at bringing in BoB in the discusion to why it would be gamebreaking... The references to both Bob and the 500 ships come from here.
Strike Valheru Caldari Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.08 21:33:00 - [317] I like the sneaky new update, but it still leaves blackops pretty useless for their cost. For the most part i used mine to rat in plexes, untill i lost it. Pvp wise it doesnt really provide enough insentive to bring. One due to most of the fights in 0.0 involve too many ships for it to survive. Two not many other ships carry covert cyno gen. Three most of the time fc's dont want battleship hull due to them being slow, unless its big fleet fight and they want either remote rep or sniper battleship. So unless blackops get some sort of concrete role i dont think we will see it on pvp warfare much. Sig: Support the cause!! http://sons-of-tangra.mybrute.com/
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.09 00:13:00 - [318] Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Sorry to burst your bubble but I have sin set up that does 538 dps with t2 sentries and no guns, that is far more than any Arazu in game can do. Toss in some nuets and it is a battleship sized pilgrim that does literally double and then some dps. My Redeemer can easily do 850+. No matter what you want to believe this is not balanced, no matter how awesome it would be, with a COC. So what you're saying is, you want a 700mil ship that tanks like cruiser, has the scan res of a carrier, with the agility of a battleship, with the DPS of a gank fit T1 cruiser, and the speed of a plated BS. Hmm interesting. You're ideas are TERRIBLE. Pilgrim ~100mil + fittings, rigs, 180mil sound fair? For this you get: a little above 400dps good agility Cov Ops Cloak Ewar Decent Scan Res (granted there is the 5 sec delay post uncloaking) So what would you rather have? 180mil force recon cruiser that has some perks or 800mil type BS that barely surpasses a force recons DPS. Recon? thats what I though. Black ops should be the other option of firepower additions to Recon gangs, with SB's. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Lord Eremet	Posted - 2009.04.09 00:24:00 - [319] Originally by: Ahz Some stuff... Fair enough. I did not imagine anyone would be able do it at such a scale if black ops got local invisibility. 500 invisible black ops deployed at once could destroy the game of 0.0 by terrorizing whole regions into a stand still. My idea was based on the premise that none would use more then 5-10 of them at most, spread over several systems to gather intel, and to take out easy targets at opportunity but at the cost of the local invisibility when doing so. But 500 of them would throw every semblance of game balance through the window... Maybe if CCP gives us ingame tools first to detect their presence in system by actively scanning for the cloaking device emissions and localize them in space if they stay to long at a spot could my idea get salvaged. If not I settle for what CCP will give us; increased jumping range, +40% scanning resolution, less fuel consumption and the ability to jump into a cyno-jammed system.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.04.09 02:14:00 - [320] Originally by: Lord Eremet Originally by: Ahz Some stuff... Fair enough. I did not imagine anyone would be able do it at such a scale if black ops got local invisibility. 500 invisible black ops deployed at once could destroy the game of 0.0 by terrorizing whole regions into a stand still. My idea was based on the premise that none would use more then 5-10 of them at most, spread over several systems to gather intel, and to take out easy targets at opportunity but at the cost of the local invisibility when doing so. But 500 of them would throw every semblance of game balance through the window... Maybe if CCP gives us ingame tools first to detect their presence in system by actively scanning for the cloaking device emissions and localize them in space if they stay to long at a spot could my idea get salvaged. If not I settle for what CCP will give us; increased jumping range, +40% scanning resolution, less fuel consumption and the ability to jump into a cyno-jammed system. that is completely ridiculows ideas. Anyoen that can field 400 dreads will field 400 dreads, not Black ops no nothing else. If you can overhelm your enemy with such brute force you give crap to stealthness.

SniperWo1f Omega Enterprises Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.04.09 03:22:00 - [321] Originally by: Vina Edited by: Vina on 31/03/2009 19:20:46 disrupting enemy logistics should be the role of a black ops squad. Since logistics in eve now consists of either jumping a JF with loads of stuff to a station, or jumping normal freighters through cyno jammed systems with jump bridges on, this requires the ability to disrupt enemy logistics AT A POS DIRECTLY. There are two ways I see of accomplishing this: 1. Give black ops a new module that does AoE pos targeting disruption field of like 20km around the ship so that the black ops and fleet can warp in and stay near eachother. This field would not allow any pos structures to lock any covert/black ops ships within the field. however as a trade off they would have near instant lock from any other ships, or something like that (or maybe not be able to warp out.) 2. Increase the ability of hacking modules to be able to "hack" cyno jammers and jump bridge modules to pull them offline after a set amount of time or a mini-game or something. Without doing something liek this, jumping into a cyno jammed system will only be good for one thing: easy gank of NPCing players, which is pretty much pointless. If you allow black ops to do what I have suggested, they will really have a new and very important role. Also, add a new ship class, tech 2 tier 2 BC for structure bombing :> ^this is the kind of thing you should be looking at , these ships are expensive and time consuming to train and fit they should be this scary great suggestion "In Rust We Trust"
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.09 04:26:00 - [322] Originally by: Seishi Maru that is completely ridiculows ideas. Anyoen that can field 400 dreads will field 400 dreads, not Black ops no nothing else. If you can overhelm your enemy with such brute force you give crap to stealthness. If you'd read the link I provided you'd realize that the 400 cap ships failed. They failed because they couldn't jump into the cyno-jammed system. In this scenario 400 invisible black ops would succeed. There would be no way for the defenders to keep them out. There would be no way for them to find them in system and, if they don't show up in local, there'd be no way for anyone to know they were there at all. Add a little meta-gaming (logging off in system) and you've got a force that's pretty much impossible to stop. My only point was that there are a lot of people for whom 500 million isk isn't a big deal. When you think of features for any given ship you've got to consider what would happen if you multiplied it out by hundreds.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.09 04:32:00 - [323] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 09/04/2009 04:36:15 Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 09/04/2009 04:34:28 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Sorry to burst your bubble but I have sin set up that does 538 dps with t2 sentries and no guns, that is far more than any Arazu in game can do. Toss in some nuets and it is a battleship sized pilgrim that does literally double and then some dps. My Redeemer can easily do 850+. No matter what you want to believe this is not balanced, no matter how awesome it would be, with a COC. So what you're saying is, you want a 700mil ship that tanks like cruiser, has the scan res of a carrier, with the agility of a battleship, with the DPS of a gank fit T1 cruiser, and the speed of a plated BS. Hmm interesting. You're ideas are TERRIBLE. Pilgrim ~100mil + fittings, rigs, 180mil sound fair? For this you get: a little above 400dps good agility Cov Ops Cloak Ewar Decent Scan Res (granted there is the 5 sec delay post uncloaking) So what would you rather have? 180mil force recon cruiser that has some perks or 800mil type BS that barely surpasses a force recons DPS. Recon? thats what I though. Black ops should be the other option of firepower additions to Recon gangs, with SB's. No, in fact, that is not what I'm saying. I agree with you completely. I was arguing with Rgreat who said that black ops damage is already small. I'm saying I don't want a COC for black ops because the inevitable nerfing will make them into said cruiser class gimp BS. Black Ops with COC and full damage is not balanced. As much as I like soloing in a Pilgrim, I think the Black Ops would be far to overpowered. They would become the only ships worth soloing in, thus an insta-train for most of eve. Yes, they are hard to train. But anything that the majority of eve considers an "i-win button" becomes required training and people will burn long and hard until they get it. Look at Titans. Giving Black Ops COC without a damage reduction makes them what CCP pre-nerfed them not to be. I want a full damage Black Ops with a jump drive and a functional, USEFUL portal, that I can use to take gangs into and out of hostile space without spending billions in isos and having 7 alts flying blockade runners. I don't want the force Recon's nerf-batted "big" brother. Edit: I also want to see an increase in resists to add some survivability, nothing insane, but I do agree that for their price these ships die to easily.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.09 07:23:00 - [324] Edited by: rgreat on 09/04/2009 07:25:54 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn I want a full damage Black Ops with a jump drive and a functional, USEFUL portal, that I can use to take gangs into and out of hostile space without spending billions in isos and having 7 alts flying blockade runners. I don't want the force Recon's nerf-batted "big" brother. Black ops are already nerf-batted. You simply afraid they will be nefred even more, while all this update is about boosting them. And i still do now understand how can BO be overpowered with just adding COC to them. Can you explain WHY it will ovepowered? What is your reasoning? Even if you stealthy approach and uncloack with BO you cant kill target of your size solo. Whats the point of the argument? Same skills and fitting quality, Dominix vs Sin = Dominix win. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Severice Crushed Ambitions	Posted - 2009.04.09 08:45:00 - [325] An idea i've kicked around for black ops is racial abilities. Each race has an ewar difference in their ships why not reflect the races strong points? Sin - Fighters - Gallente are drone users give them a small mobile fighter platform, supports cov-ops gangs with what they lack, DPS, and you risk 125 million isk instead of 500 million for the sin. Sounds about right to me. After reviewing the proposed capabilities of the other ships it feels like agian the sign gets the raw end of the deal, to bring it in line and offset the panther, a remote armor rep bonus and possible triage might be in order. Widow - Projected ECM Burst - Another Capital ship ability (see where i'm going here?) a ship that is an ECM ship that has a no holds barred "GTFO" button. - along with normal ECM the widow is an extremely potent ship. Panther - Jump Portal generator - No covert ops limitations. The minmatar are all about speed, let them haul ass from A to B like never before. Extremely powerful logistics ship, throw in a remote shield rep bonus (possible triage mod) and you have the makings of a monster. Redeemer - Siege mode - The Amarr have long held the title of meanest battle ship. A siege module will make the redeemer a damage dealing monster. Giving a siege module to the redeemer has two effects. A. It's an empire solution to poses at an appropriate cost. B. It's a quick, dirty, sneaky way to take down a cyno jammer.
Lijhal FrEE d00M Fighters	Posted - 2009.04.09 10:32:00 - [326] with the upcoming changes, do we need again an alt in a hostile system to jump with our BO into it or are BO ships able to jump complete autark from one system into another ?
Asterisk Grat Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.04.09 13:23:00 - [327] First, thanks to CCP for finally working on blackops. 1. Covert cyno in cyno jammed systems. - A+ 2. Base isotope consumption change to 300 - A+ 3. Fuel bay - GREAT. Question: How big is the fuel bay? Also, if you run out of isotopes in fuel bay and have some stored in cargo, will it automatically take from cargo hold or do you need to transfer manually? Covops cloak on blackops. I don't think they are needed. For what? Doesn't help it improve any of it's roles it can currently do, just making it a big expensive bird with a cloak. Changes I'd like to see. Better Tech II resistances, more damage. It costs close to a carrier, needs to be able to deal more damage and have a better tank.
Aramova Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.09 14:48:00 - [328] Change the jump portal to use a heat method. Follow along guys :) The jump portal generator can jump any style of ship. It's a smaller, blackops james bond style device that's powerful, expensive, and can do in a BMW what most people would need a Tank for... However, it has a heat issue. You can pick as to if you want it to eat the high slot heat, or have it's own, but jumping around covert ships makes so little heat cause that's what it's designed for and protects against, that it won't cause major damage. If you jump a HAC through it however, that ship class is not designed to resonate with the jump portal, and causes damage to the portal and/or ship ship generating it. Once it's jumped a non-covert ship through it then needs a 30-60 minute recalibration time, and has caused long term damage to other systems. This could allow you to move a half dozen HACs if you MUST, but you risk losing your ship if the heat generated is too much to handle. Best way is to base it off of uncalibradted mass, give that risk that someone with 2 Trimarks and 2 Plates on a HAC could push your ship over the edge and cause a catastrophic failure. It would add a whole new element to the game, and some uncertainty. ________________________________
Kiyoseki One-Trick Pony Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.09 15:47:00 - [329] Originally by: Aylara BO boost: - better scan resolution and no recalibration delay - less fuel for jump and bridging - increase cargo capacity - double the jump range - increase armor/shield resistances - a slight increase in damage - no COC Yes. Although I think that it should be CoC, as sneaky is the name of the game, but keep the 5 second recal that current CoC ships have. Quote: To add the thought of there being 'permanent stealthed' enemy battleships around us at all times would destroy all sense of security. If its 0.0, there shouldn't be any sense of security. Thats what empire and low-sec is for. 0.0 is rough and currently it pays more than it should for the risk involved. Maybe disable local (delayed mode) in all systems below Sov 4. If your a smaller corp/alliance that doesn't worry about sov fighting, then you are probably well versed in group defense and smart ratting/mining tactics. All they need now is a 14au proximity warning, 30 second ping and only if the sensor str to sensor str math works out to sense the ship. So say a Tier 2 BS is ratting, its 14au ping may not hit the Inty or LightDictor that is headed towards it after being probed by a covops. But once the dps ships start warping towards it, the alarm would sound. Escape is still possible, but only if your vigilant and fit the minor changes in your ratting ship needed to scare off smaller tacklers. Suddenly small-gang/solo roaming becomes more fun for the PvP'ers picking off the bottom-feeders and the smart and well-played ratters, or small gangs mining/defending can still do their job.
Photon Ceray	Posted - 2009.04.09 17:31:00 - [330] I suggest the following regarding black ops/local: either: BO cyno + jump all ships remain cloaked they do not appear in local for a period of time (30 secs) unless they uncloak or: (this is more of a delayed local thing) if it came through a covert ops cyno it doesn't appear in local untill it agressed something (rats/ships) or warped to gates for a very long time. scanner systems are hauled and replaced with an active scanner that works like a radar(as it is supposed to be!!), so you set range to 14 AU and when a ship gets in range it'll appear on scanner. (remove the need for ridiculous scan button spamming fgs!) you see all the blue people in local (even if they jump with BO) but only your aliance can see them not hostiles. this way if you see a group of recon ships suddenly appear on scan you'll know some BOs jumped in local and get safe. this way MACRO ratters and isk farmers will be easier targets, real 0.0 players will not be affected since they pay attention all the time anyway. suggestions for the ship itself: personally I think BO ships should not be like battleships more like mini carriers, or black ops command ship. they should be able to: have T2 resists jump friendly recons into enemy territory give command bonuses allow friendly ships to refit just like with carrier much larger cargo for storing whatever is needed for the gang as well, loot, fuel, ammo, drones, bubbles...etc no CoC, they don't have to be big pilgrims/rapiers. here is a CRAZY idea! not asking to put this one in game, but it might inspire for something else a black ops command mod just like siege/triage, allows giving command bonuses, stays stationary, this would be the mod that allows the usage of a module that (if local remains just like it is now) removes ships in the BOs fleet from local after they initially apear (hacking the gate systems and stuff like real BOs would lol). this "command center" would be able to work cloaked, but if stuff gets within 2500 it get uncloaked like everything else, this includes friendly ships refitting or dumping loot/taking ammo. I don't know if my ideas are implementable, it depends on CCP, what they want and what they can, but I hope that they at least inspire the creation of other ideas.

Potrero Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.04.09 18:56:00 - [331] Originally by: Photon Ceray ...this "command center" would be able to work cloaked Some interesting stuff here. Gang assist modules that work while cloaked other than warp. Command links, jump portal generator... these are good ideas and fit the black ops role very well I think.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.09 20:06:00 - [332] My list: Black ops cyno works in jammed systems Fuel Bay + 2x increase in cyno jump range (either fuel cost reduction or increase in fuel bay size) Jump portal works for any frigate-class hull (assault frigs, stealth bombers, e-war ships, cove ops). Nothing larger than a destroyer under any circumstances Jump portal works by linking to any other jump bridge (titan, jump bridge or another black ops) + range increase. Jump technology should always require equipment on both ends of the jump. 1 racial warfare link (works while cloaked) Tech II resists Fleet Role: An assaulting force gets a force recon into heavily defended systems and cynos in a black ops Black ops links to second black ops outside the defending system Assaulting force sends in mixed bag of evil frigates through the linked black ops ships and assaults from within. Maybe 8 to 10 frigates per black ops. Need more frigates, send in more black ops. The main attacking force sends its large ships through main gate and attacks from both sides Guerilla Role: A gang of two or three black ops roam a hostile system always staying several jumps apart from each other. One of the black ops is always attended by half a dozen evil frigates Anytime one of the black ops encounters a target it links to one of the other black ops ships It then engages the adversaries while linked. The evil frigates jump through the link and hot drops into the battle already in progress. Gankage ensues. While this is going on the other black ops either cloak up or continue to roam looking for new targets. Rinse and repeat. Defense Role: Small attack fleet harasses your system You send a force recon to the most likely escape route that the attackers will take and rally your main force to chase the insurgents away When they retreat you cyno a black ops into their path and set a trap. Swarm of evil frigates engages the attackers Solo Role: Overpriced trophy with great resists and so-so damage These changes allow for the ship to play an important support role in a number of engagements and allows for types of combat you can't currently find. It does some interesting things without creating a new over-powered invisible solo ganging machine. The only risk I can see is that it can be abused by allowing large forces to move massive amounts of small ships around quickly. I think the only way to control that is by carefully balancing the amount of fuel they can carry.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.09 20:33:00 - [333] So I just had an idea for some changes that could work. -We have jumping into cyno jammed systems, great... GOOO us. -Fuel bay...when they get around to writing it, fantastic -...10% scan res bonus... thx for something i guess +My post ignores the jump portal feature of BOps as it doesn't interest me much and doesn't what I have to say much anyways, I'll run it down why further down. There is a LOT of hostility about the whole COC issue, as people don't want it to become a solo pwnzor. Personally I don't think that will happen, but whatever, I came up with I think could be an excellent compromise. First change: Allow generating covert cynoes while cloaked, I'll elaborate why more in a moment, bear with me. Second change: Allow the black ops ship to jump to cover cynoes while cloaked and stay cloaked when they reach destination. (ie: Their cloak is active when they jump, and it is still active when they arrive so when they start moving on their target they don't have to reveal themselves) --Note: BRIDGING other ships, as far these ideas go, don't have this perk available to them. However, if you think my idea is good then feel free to say it would be ok. Effect: The Black Ops ships would then be able to sneak up on targets JUST as undetected as they would with a COC BUT they could ONLY do it if they have someone else cloaked with a covert cyno gen fitted. Thus they can't do it solo, but still get the total element of surprise. It would make for some great mining op ganks/gate camp crashing tactics. --Note: As far as other stat changes, in these gank situations more tank (resists or HP) would be unnecessary however a little damage boost would be ideal. Perhaps a little more than 10% scan res boost too... But whatever. Whatya folks think? I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Little Fistter Caldari Highlander Guard	Posted - 2009.04.09 22:10:00 - [334] Any of the BS'es that the Black Ops ships are based upon do more damage. A domy has six turrets, a Sin only has four. WHY? Originally by: Ephemeron Pimped out gank Black ops hit 1000 dps, so you could get 500 with cov ops cloak WTF? Even if you fit all damage mods and T2 Mega Blasters and T2 Drones, you're not going to do 1000 damage per second in a Sin. A Widow, or the rest, might come close. But, to accomplish that you have to neglect every other fitting requirement, like repair, tank, range or drone enhancement or nosft/neuts. In short, the price to survivability is too high, in practice, to depend on that kind of damage. Fail Boat. DEVS! Please a small color indicator upon jump gate icon that shows color of the system security rating of the destination system in the overview and in the HUD view. Little Fistter
thoth rothschild Strategic Solutions Ltd. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.04.10 00:37:00 - [335] I do like the idea of command modules working while cloaked and coc. It would give the ship a defensive and supporting role. There is no need for another damage output batleship in fleets or gangs. + speed/manover + coc + command modules working while cloaked + sensor strength - damage - high / lowslots This is only my fiew of a perfect black ops command ship :D Yes! This is quite strong but there are many other ships strong in some way. Try to get rid of a damantion or avoid an ishtar gang. We¦ll see what they are up to.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.10 01:31:00 - [336] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 09/04/2009 07:25:54 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn I want a full damage Black Ops with a jump drive and a functional, USEFUL portal, that I can use to take gangs into and out of hostile space without spending billions in isos and having 7 alts flying blockade runners. I don't want the force Recon's nerf-batted "big" brother. Black ops are already nerf-batted. You simply afraid they will be nefred even more, while all this update is about boosting them. And i still do now understand how can BO be overpowered with just adding COC to them. Can you explain WHY it will ovepowered? What is your reasoning? Even if you stealthy approach and uncloack with BO you cant kill target of your size solo. Whats the point of the argument? Same skills and fitting quality, Dominix vs Sin = Dominix win. You can kill a target of your size solo. A Sin fit with nuets and t2 sentires will eat most other battleships for breakfast. It may have a hardtime against a Domi, but Domi's can't use jump drives, Domi's can't portal, Domi's can't cloak. It's the whole package, not one selected sitution. Even ship will die in a 1v1 with certian other ships. A Domi will eat up a pilgrim most of the time, despite the fact that a pilgrim on average costs more to fit. Every ship that has COC in game currently has reduced damage output. Warping cloaked adds an incredible iniative bonus to a ship. It can choose it's fights most of the time, and even if it is out gunned this ability lets it select the best time to attack. This may not seem like much, but I can tell you as pilgrim pilot who has solo'd many BS targets that it is better than any other skill or ship bonus. You play by your own rules when using one, you fight only what you want to fight. In the pilgrim's case this is fine because it takes time to bring down a large target on, at the ceiling, 250-260dps, even with tank reduced by nueting it takes a long time to down a BS. Giving COC to Black Ops makes the solo recons, like the pilgrim, useless. A second choice for people without the skills to fly Black Ops.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.10 03:12:00 - [337] Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 03:16:31 Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 03:16:17 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn You can kill a target of your size solo. A Sin fit with nuets and t2 sentires will eat most other battleships for breakfast. Login on to SiSi. Try to fighting battles with Sin... solo. You will learn about meaning of the 'failboat'. Sin can only fare well if target is outnumbered, tackled and jammed to hell. But in this situation target will die even without Sin help. Quote: It may have a hardtime against a Domi, but Domi's can't use jump drives, Domi's can't portal, Domi's can't cloak. Do you know the line 'master of none' ? Its about 'master' who know alot of things but cannot do anything good. As a result this 'master' lose in all categories. Thats just about right for Sin (And black ops in general, to lesser extent). Quote: It's the whole package, not one selected sitution. Even ship will die in a 1v1 with certian other ships. Sin die vs most decent fitted battleships. You can't totaly compensate for it with some fancy stuff, if you still consider Sin as primary a combat ship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DOARota Gallente BURN EDEN Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.10 04:55:00 - [338] Hopefully they only fix the jumping into cyno jammed systems and add the fuel bay. That would keep the ship from a huge nerf later while keeping it very usable.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.10 05:34:00 - [339] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 10/04/2009 05:36:15 Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 03:44:58 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn You can kill a target of your size solo. A Sin fit with nuets and t2 sentires will eat most other battleships for breakfast. Login on to SiSi. Try to fighting battles with Sin... solo. You will learn about meaning of the 'failboat'. Sin can only fare well if target is outnumbered, tackled and jammed to hell. But in this situation target will die even without Sin help. Quote: It may have a hardtime against a Domi, but Domi's can't use jump drives, Domi's can't portal, Domi's can't cloak. Do you know the line 'master of none' ? Its about 'master' who know alot of things but cannot do anything good. As a result this 'master' lose in all categories. Thats just about right for Sin (And black ops in general, to lesser extent). Quote: It's the whole package, not one selected sitution. Even ship will die in a 1v1 with certian other ships. Sin die vs most decent fitted battleships. You can't totaly compensate for it with some fancy stuff, if you still consider Sin as primary a combat ship. As for piligrim, i consider this ship as much harder target for a battleships compared to Sin. With turreted battleship they do not even really have a chance. With others it is very hard, as piligrim is very good tanked, hard to hit and have alot of cap. As i sayd before Sin is a very easy target (large scan res, low resists, low speed, mediocre HP) with no EW, glass tank and only a HAC level of DPS at most. Also it will have problems with capacitor if you try to use MWD or active tank with neutralisers on target. Neutolisers alone will not win all your fights as you actually have good chances to die first and fast, and you will need to get close to use neutrolisers, which is a gamble with 800+Mil on definite win or die situation. By the way, try to fit a combat, decent tanked, jump protal enabled fit with MWD and heavy neutrolisers on Sin...even with T2 rigs, heh. Check resulted stats and cost and then consider just using Curse/Piligrim instead. This arguement is pretty pointless. I don't think there is any way you will conceed that Black Ops doesn't need COC because you believe it so hard. The funny thing is by your own arguements COC wont make the Black Ops a better ship, a pilgrim would be a better choice. Why do you want something you think is so ineffective? I believe it is absolutely the wrong choice for the ships and apparently I am the one who actually thinks it gives the ship the advantage. If you can't understand the HUGE advantage that COC gives I can't explain it to you. But think about this, unless your dealing with an AC minmatar BS, a raven or a domi the ship can't even shoot after a few cycles of nuets. If you've got a good buffer the AC BS will die before you and so will the raven because they melt when thier cap dies. 530+ dps will burn through an untanked ship like a hot knife through butter. The Domi is the only real threat. I think the COC arguement can be summed up in this: "It cost me 800mil, it should have a COC." I'm sorry, but the combination of jump drive and improved cloak does everything a COC could. I do agree with you that something needs to be done about the scan res, and I've posted that before in other threads. But warping cloaked really isn't needed for a jump capable ship that will soon be able to bypass cyno jammers.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.10 11:30:00 - [340] Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 11:31:06 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn If you can't understand the HUGE advantage that COC gives I can't explain it to you. Advantage is not that huge. Basicly it only give you more freedom of movement on target approach and better scan resolution. With COC you not give out yourself completely for everyone who bother to use a scanner each time you need to warp around system. All other things are not very different. So i think while COC is nice, but it must be only one of steps which is needed to make BO usefull, and it is a most logical one. Like covert ship must use covert cloak. Currently BO is the only covert ship without it... even bombers got it now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vigaz	Posted - 2009.04.10 14:05:00 - [341] Edited by: Vigaz on 10/04/2009 14:15:43 new stats on sisi now. SB Racial damage bonus from 15% to 20%. Range? about 65 km javelin max skills and 1 rig. Once again I have to say that if this last modification is intended by CCP, then base attributes of the Manticore MUST be revisited. It's just lame to have uber targetting range and no weapon that can be used in that range. Hound/Purifier/Nemesis have less targetting range (but still adeguate for the max range of the Javelin with 2 rigs) and Manticore got the worst Sig/scan res/agility/speed in exchange. If CCP cannot provide different torped velocity bonus per Race, then just reduce all SBs targetting range by 30-40%. then if u want to use long range Javelin manticore/nemesis is preferred, Rage for close range Hound/Purifier. Problem solved imo.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.04.10 15:53:00 - [342] Originally by: rgreat Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn If you can't understand the HUGE advantage that COC gives I can't explain it to you. You cant explain it because advantage is not that huge. COC gives you complete freedom in picking your fights. In 1 on 1 combat target selection is everything. In 1 on 1 combat you should never lose. Hang out in 0.0 and you see lots of force recons for exactly this reason. You can travel almost completely unmolested until you see someone you want to blast. The problem is that Rapiers and the like are kind of fragile. There are only so many targets you can blast at will. Give the same ability to a black ops and you've got invisible battleships engaging big targets. It's unbalanced and a bad idea. You want big fights in your battleship. Man up and get in your typhoon or whatever. Go fight people who can see you.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.10 16:55:00 - [343] Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 17:01:15 Originally by: Ahz COC gives you complete freedom in picking your fights. In 1 on 1 combat target selection is everything. I agree, but with slow and large 800 mil ship it is imperative that it stays this way. Quote: In 1 on 1 combat you should never lose. There can be surprises. Also Black Ops are quite weak combatants. You can lose easily. Remember, each time you make a mistake you can lose alot of isk. Quote: Hang out in 0.0 and you see lots of force recons for exactly this reason. You can travel almost completely unmolested until you see someone you want to blast. The problem is that Rapiers and the like are kind of fragile. I personally killed alot of recons who think that COC give hime ability to travel "unmolested". For a large ship it is not really much easier to travel through gatecamps with COC (compared to T1 Cloak). And recons are harder to kill compared to Sin. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Elin Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2009.04.10 20:48:00 - [344] Originally by: CCP Chronotis The functionality which allows us to add special cargobays to ships (such as a fuel bay, ore hold, fighter bay and so on). That functionality is not ready yet so a black ops fuel bay sits very high on our wishlist still. If adding a fuel bay to ship is such a big problem, why just not reduce fual use for jusp drives??
JesterWiLD Caldari DEATHFUNK Doctrine.	Posted - 2009.04.10 22:34:00 - [345] Edited by: JesterWiLD on 10/04/2009 22:35:00 Finally some good news for these ships. they truely would need a cov ops or at least an agility modifier
Saaya Illirie Caldari Core Element Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.04.10 22:45:00 - [346] Erm. No ones thinking about the obvious??? Cov Ops cyno in Blockade Runners into cyno jammed systems!! Bring in towers, fuels, etc. into a cyno jammed system instead of risking gate camps... if you break the system by 51% who cares if it's cyno-jammed or not... everyones thinking about how to initiate POS warfare, instead of thinking how to use cov ops during wars of attrition... instead of risking an attack on a deathstar to disable the cynojammer you can just bring in the crap by blockade runner. Suffer not the insufferable to live.
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.10 23:48:00 - [347] Originally by: Saaya Illirie Erm. No ones thinking about the obvious??? Cov Ops cyno in Blockade Runners into cyno jammed systems!! Bring in towers, fuels, etc. into a cyno jammed system instead of risking gate camps... if you break the system by 51% who cares if it's cyno-jammed or not... everyones thinking about how to initiate POS warfare, instead of thinking how to use cov ops during wars of attrition... instead of risking an attack on a deathstar to disable the cynojammer you can just bring in the crap by blockade runner. you can only put down 5 towers a day so that still won't work. ---
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.11 03:15:00 - [348] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 10/04/2009 15:46:57 Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn If you can't understand the HUGE advantage that COC gives I can't explain it to you. You cant explain it because advantage is not that huge. Basicly it only give you more freedom of movement on target approach and better scan resolution, is is not make BO a alot better fighting machine or 'i-win' button. With COC you not give out yourself completely for everyone who bother to use a scanner each time you need to warp around system. All other things are not very different. So i think while COC is nice, but it must be only one of steps which is needed to make BO usefull, and it is a most logical one. Like covert ship must use covert cloak. Currently BO is the only covert ship without it... even bombers got it now (lol, even hauler got one!), finally. And 2 bombers in fact have better DPS then BO... frigates... with COC. Hows that? I still do not understand why you argue against COC on BO. You did not state any significant reason why BO will be overpowerded with it. Only agrument you use is that BO can be used fine without COC (with extra bonuses). To do so you will need alot of extra bonuses which compensate for harmful effects simple cloak does to BO. Which, i think are better to apply to ther areas BO lacking instead. Convert cyno is definetely NOT a replacement to warping in on target. Thats where we part ways. This instrument is broken at birth, as covert cyno make its bearer static and very vulnerable. Tackler put a cyno - he dies. Well, drop covert cyno 100% speed penalty (for tacklers to use it in combat), reduce needed isotopes (so you can put up many cynos in one day), reduce training requerement for it (so not only dedicated tacker can fit it), and it can work then, maybe. I have expalined it too you, but in your lust for COC you've ignored it. You obiviously don't understand the basic mechanics of fighting in and fitting COC capable ships. The initative bonus I'm talking about is not invulerablity, it's the ability to choose fights. Does it work everytime? No. Is it a huge freaking advantage on ship that can dish out BS level damage? Yes. Is the combination of COC, BS damage, bypassing cyno jammers, jump drive capablity, and covert jump portaling overpowered? Compare these ships to every other ship in game. There is NO platform that can do 500-800+ dps and gain the advantages that COC capable vessels have. There are others in this thread that agree with me. COC on a ship with high damage potential is not balanced. CCP themselves have said they don't want these ships to be HAC or recon replacement solopwn mobiles. I'm not argueing that the Black Ops aren't messed up, I never have been. The ships do not work the way they are. I'm argueing that COC is not the solution for fixing them. the COC on the stealth bomber is a stupid change brought about forum morons tbh. Stealth bombers are going to die more horribly than they ever have before with that recloaking penalty CCP is adding to thier COC use. The instant one of those bombers drops cloak, or fails to navigate the storm of warrior 2s, it is dead. It will die before it's torps even hit home. I can see COC on a battleship class t2 ship. I cannot see it on the Black Ops. Their role is not toe to toe combat. It is bridging, and soon getting forces past cyno jammers. CCP needs to make this aspect work effectively. They don't need to worry about if your Black Ops can kill a Domi in low sec, or what would happen in a 1v1, or what happens if you engage a hostile gang in it solo and get murdered.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.11 10:34:00 - [349] Edited by: rgreat on 11/04/2009 10:35:36 To have BO only as a logistic ship and mobile bridge platform is a waste. Do you intend to fight with it at all? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2009.04.11 12:24:00 - [350] Edited by: Random Womble on 11/04/2009 12:25:52 The only way to settle the COC arguement is to try it and see, and no trying it on SiSi wont be a realistic test. I can see how using TQ to test a ship may seem mad but then really thats what we do all the time its only because of use and therefore testing on TQ that we are in the current position now where black ops and many other ships are getting changed. So best way to see is put it on TQ if BO become the next solopwn mobile its allways possible to change it back but then if they become effective ships for their 500mil+ price tag then it works. TBH its pretty hard to get a solo fight anyway and you wont really want to 1v1 another battleship with a BO COC or no COC unless your pimped up with faction and deadspace at which point it the other BS was also similarly pimped you would get severly beaten.

Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.04.11 16:23:00 - [351] You cannot simulate a BO Fight on SISI, sadly because the real bonus of hidden tactics is to be able to chose your oponent which I don't see how this can be tested on SiSi unless with a prepared fleet, which is in anyway not realistic either. I followed some of the discussion here, and saw the results of usage of Black Ops on many killboards. Mostly the only advantage you gain by using such a ship is for logistical purpose only in far too rare occasions or as killer in hostile Belts. In the last case again, 2 fully fitted Vagabonds are far more efficient then a bomber and a BO together. The Vagas are faster, smaller, cost less, are more easy to skill for, can be used for other things aswell, do not cost fuel, have no penalty whatever, in my opinion they even tank more (for widow). Oh come on this ship is a joke! Reimburse everybody with 500 mio Isk and remove it, or start really think about any use, because now its just like a giant foobar(); function somewhere in the code which looks so great but has absolutely no use.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.04.12 01:06:00 - [352] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 11/04/2009 10:35:36 To have BO only as a logistic ship and mobile bridge platform is a waste. Do you intend to fight with it at all? Fight with it yes, but the ship is not intended to be the primary damage platform, or a solo ganker. As I've said before it needs higher resists, since everyone agrees it gets primaried before any other ship on the field.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.04.12 02:36:00 - [353] Originally by: Vall Kor kinda wondering how an SB is going to tank some pos guns. Pretty easy, just recloak before you get locked. Bypassing cynojammers = epic win btw
ian666 Minmatar Lamb Federation Navy C0VEN	Posted - 2009.04.12 11:31:00 - [354] Edited by: ian666 on 12/04/2009 11:35:37 Edited by: ian666 on 12/04/2009 11:34:04 If ccp really thinks about black ops as a weapon for killing cyno jammer structures on enemy pos, few things must be changed. Typical black ops have 5 turrets/launchers, give them a really strong damage bonus and some type of tanking bonus. But if we give them ship bonuses to hp or resistances then people will start using Black Ops in plexs and missions and this could be bad. So we could add a new module something simmilar to siege module but with activation time around 30s, fuel free just 1 unit of cap per cycle. 5 turrets / 5 launchers (with jump portal, cloak and new module will be 8 slots used) New module: +125% damage bonus (but only to short range weapon type), +90% to all shield or armor resistances, immune to ew, penalty -90% to tracking and explosion radius, speed -100% High resistances could be usefull for remote repping and penalty makes them very bad in everything else than killing single pos structure. That ship for sure will have a role, but in same time he wont be more usefull than Dreadnought because of dealing damage/price/ship jump range etc. Idea will be to bring a Black Ops fleet to kill Jammer, after it cyno up and proper capital fleet jumping in to kill rest of structures/pos.
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.04.12 12:05:00 - [355] Then again, if this would be so then the ship would be to overpowerd again. Imagine you could change the fait of a war (which is often the case in one system) by using only one gang of Black ops, that would be far too overpowered. I was about something else, which made me thought. We got an Industrial command ship, we got command ships, what about a stealth command ship? It would request another skill, sadly but that would match to the "intended function" Lets say something like "Gang Warfare Link - Stealth Operation" - Skill 2% Bonus per Level to damage output on force reckons, reckons and stealth bomber. "Stealth Operation" - Skill 5% Bonus to speed of cloaked ships per level. "Stealth tactician" 3% Bonus to Damage output of cloaked ships, such as force reckons, reckons and stealth bombers. The damageoutput would remain the same for all BO's. The Module would request an additional highslots but no turret / missile launcher hardpoint. This would give the ship the role it should fullfill. The Bomber squads would be a dangerous fact in war.
Javelin6 Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.04.12 17:16:00 - [356] Even though it has been said that this was all the changes going to be made to Black-Ops, I am going to throw this into the wishing well. Something that would be drowning in "winsauce" (IHMO), would be for the Black-Ops to be able to jump itself and bridge its fleetmates simultaneously. This way the entire strike package would arrive on 1 Covert-cyno cycle. For example, when the beacon has been lit the ships to be bridged have a context menu selection that says "Bridge WITH (name) to x(system)x" on the Black-Ops. When Black-Ops pilot jumps, he takes everyone that "queued up" with him. End result would be covert-cyno pilot only has to keep it lit for 1 cycle and the entire element is there at once. I don't have any idea how hard it would be to code this as I am sure it would open a huge can of desync worms, but that's why you guys are Devs and I just play the thing.
Maraleith Gallente Zephan Industries	Posted - 2009.04.12 23:59:00 - [357] Edited by: Maraleith on 13/04/2009 00:05:33 There is one issue I have with all this love with black ops. How do you defend yourself as an alliance against a black ops gang that cyno's into your space? You choose where and when you fight. You can easily avoid fights. Just how would a cov ops gang that can avoid bubbles through jump portals be stopped? From what I have read, the answer is that a cov ops fleet after these changes could not be stopped. There needs to be a counter to having 20 cov ops ship suddenly appear in your constellation capital, particularly when you have no way of hunting them otherwise you have created a new I win button and will have to nerf them all later on. How about a new class of ship called a stealth hunter? Can probe while cloaked but much ,ore slowly than normal, enormous tanks, no firepower at all as the sensor system required eliminates the possibility of firepower and it drops a decloaking bubble 20km wide. Decloaking bubbles and dictor bubbles counter each other to make gate jumping viable. Then cyno and run where ever you like but don't spend too long there or you will be hunted down..........
Alxea	Posted - 2009.04.13 04:14:00 - [358] Originally by: Little Fistter Any of the BS'es that the Black Ops ships are based upon do more damage. A domy has six turrets, a Sin only has four. WHY? Originally by: Ephemeron Pimped out gank Black ops hit 1000 dps, so you could get 500 with cov ops cloak WTF? Even if you fit all damage mods and T2 Mega Blasters and T2 Drones, you're not going to do 1000 damage per second in a Sin. A Widow, or the rest, might come close. But, to accomplish that you have to neglect every other fitting requirement, like repair, tank, range or drone enhancement or nosft/neuts. In short, the price to survivability is too high, in practice, to depend on that kind of damage. Fail Boat. Blame the manufacturers for jacking up T2 prices. If you can't afford it don't buy it, problem solved. Kind of pointless to whine about a ship.
Do Won	Posted - 2009.04.13 11:20:00 - [359] Humbly suggest that local only be updated for ships that arrive via the 'normal' gates. Black ops forces arrival in a system wouldn't be announced to all. Jump bridge arrivals wouldn't be either. Makes scouting/recon more important than some one just watching local, and I'm sure that some enterprising 0.0 types have already created bots that just float around cloaked doing just that, and ones that haven't gone that automated have an alt doing it.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.04.13 12:23:00 - [360] Originally by: Do Won Humbly suggest that local only be updated for ships that arrive via the 'normal' gates. Black ops forces arrival in a system wouldn't be announced to all. Jump bridge arrivals wouldn't be either. Makes scouting/recon more important than some one just watching local, and I'm sure that some enterprising 0.0 types have already created bots that just float around cloaked doing just that, and ones that haven't gone that automated have an alt doing it. Why bother with all of that? Just remove local from 0.0 and be done with it. Period. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting

Maraleith Gallente Zephan Industries	Posted - 2009.04.13 13:32:00 - [361] Originally by: Do Won Humbly suggest that local only be updated for ships that arrive via the 'normal' gates. Black ops forces arrival in a system wouldn't be announced to all. Jump bridge arrivals wouldn't be either. Makes scouting/recon more important than some one just watching local, and I'm sure that some enterprising 0.0 types have already created bots that just float around cloaked doing just that, and ones that haven't gone that automated have an alt doing it. NO. No more I win buttons for cloakers. It makes scouting IMPOSSIBLE as one moment your safe; the next you have 30 recons next to you that have jumped in.
DNSBLACK Gallente Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.04.13 13:49:00 - [362] CCP Chronotis, 1. I know you are working hard on the Stealth Bomber but can you give us a recap on what has been changed in the Black Ops so far. 2. Since the Black Ops were pre-nerfed I really dont think any of us know what to do. This is like starting at ground zero. Could you share what the DEVs' intended for this ship so we can begin moving int hat direction. 3. I read in a post about allowing Black Ops BS to use the gang modules and take on a role of a BO command ship. This idea sounds really intresting. Having it give bonuses to a recon gang would make this ship alot of fun. I dont think it should have the tank of a command ship but a bonus giving role would make these intresting in any kind of a fight. 4. Fuel consumption- Lower bridge fuel used by recons and cov ops going thru. Jump range- increase to 8 light years Not sure what other changes to make do to this ship really not being used alot.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2009.04.13 13:56:00 - [363] I still think this should be a discussion of BO roles (as outlined in this post), rather than the covert ops pro con discussion going on now.. But what about making two tiers of Black ops- as with the command ships. One BO version for gang support and another combat focused version..
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.13 17:01:00 - [364] Originally by: Baudolino I still think this should be a discussion of BO roles (as outlined in this post), rather than the covert ops pro con discussion going on now.. But what about making two tiers of Black ops- as with the command ships. One BO version for gang support and another combat focused version.. I agree some clarification on intended role of black ops would be nice, and some illumination on the intended purpose of black ops from the devs. I'm curious how they would go about implementing gang bonuses that effect damage. It may be easy, but it could be difficult. Would it be just damage modifier? or rate of fire? I think such a function could be useful but I wonder how it could be done. Personally though I want to see Black Ops as a fighter and not a booster, at least not totally. It seems a waste to have so much specialization and isk sunk into a ship just to have it safed up somewhere to just boost fleets. On the other hand, some input from others on my previous post cloaking compromise. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.13 17:03:00 - [365] Originally by: DNSBLACK CCP Chronotis, 1. I know you are working hard on the Stealth Bomber but can you give us a recap on what has been changed in the Black Ops so far. 2. Since the Black Ops were pre-nerfed I really dont think any of us know what to do. This is like starting at ground zero. Could you share what the DEVs' intended for this ship so we can begin moving int hat direction. 3. I read in a post about allowing Black Ops BS to use the gang modules and take on a role of a BO command ship. This idea sounds really intresting. Having it give bonuses to a recon gang would make this ship alot of fun. I dont think it should have the tank of a command ship but a bonus giving role would make these intresting in any kind of a fight. 4. Fuel consumption- Lower bridge fuel used by recons and cov ops going thru. Jump range- increase to 8 light years Not sure what other changes to make do to this ship really not being used alot. Changes so far: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in scan resolution - Small increase in cargobay - Small reduction in fuel usage. From 400 units to 300 units per LY as base. Think that was it before it all went in to a covert op cloak vs no covert op cloak discussion.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.13 18:48:00 - [366] Originally by: TZeer Changes so far: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in scan resolution - Small increase in cargobay - Small reduction in fuel usage. From 400 units to 300 units per LY as base. Think that was it before it all went in to a covert op cloak vs no covert op cloak discussion. Correct. What we could use now is some elaboration on what/why black ops were born then. Could shed some light on the issue(s) I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.14 00:25:00 - [367] Edited by: rgreat on 14/04/2009 00:33:08 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Correct. What we could use now is some elaboration on what/why black ops were born then. Could shed some light on the issue(s) My guess Black Ops were born because CCP need to make up new toy for veterans to train for. As long as you have some new flashy candy to get alot of people will continue to extend their subscription. Even if candy turns out as flashy on the outside, and kinda rotten inside. Also it helped for EVE economy to make BO as a pretty good isk sink (high const, crappy insurance), altough it did not worked out very good, as BO are hardly used (and killed as a result). Hopefully now CCP actually feels that candy need not to only look good, but to taste good too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ollobrains Caldari State Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.14 06:33:00 - [368] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 14/04/2009 00:33:08 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Correct. What we could use now is some elaboration on what/why black ops were born then. Could shed some light on the issue(s) My guess Black Ops were born because CCP need to make up new toy for veterans to train for. As long as you have some new flashy candy to get alot of people will continue to extend their subscription. Even if candy turns out as flashy on the outside, and kinda rotten inside. Also it helped for EVE economy to make BO as a pretty good isk sink (high const, crappy insurance), altough it did not worked out very good, as BO are hardly used (and killed as a result). Hopefully now CCP actually feels that candy need not to only look good, but to taste good too. BO need a defined role If its warping claoked ( useful for sleeper space) Bonuses to scanning Jump range extended to 10 LY - 20 LY less or condensed fuel allowing more time in space better resists maybe or some new bonus might be in order
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.04.14 11:59:00 - [369] What we need is a DECENT T2 combat battleship. T2 battleships were the most waited ship in game sicne T2 was introduced. And CCP screwed up with them. A LOT!! Marauders are near useless on PVP.. (come on.. wanted to avoid solo pwnmobiles? just add "this ship cannot use warp disruptors") Black ops are pre nerfed up to pathetic levels ( Can anyone point me other classes where t2 versions have far less HP than the t1 and no huge resists to compensate?) Com on CCP. Give BOTH black ops and marauders RECON level resists. They cost more than carriers!! They shoudl be more survivable than an abaddon. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.04.14 13:35:00 - [370] Originally by: TZeer Changes so far: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in scan resolution - Small increase in cargobay - Small reduction in fuel usage. From 400 units to 300 units per LY as base. yes, this is a good summary of the changes which will be in Apocrypha 1.1. As mentioned previously, we are not done yet with the black ops and the discussion here has been very useful. More changes will come in the future.


Valadeya uthanaras Corp 1 Allstars PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.04.14 13:53:00 - [371] Originally by: CCP Chronotis yes, this is a good summary of the changes which will be in Apocrypha 1.1. As mentioned previously, we are not done yet with the black ops and the discussion here has been very useful. More changes will come in the future. Any bonus insight you could give us about the "more change part" , because even if you did solve the main problem (aka jump into cyno jammed and lower fuel use) there is mainly 3 points that come very often in this very civilized discussion: 1. Jump range increase (aka need at least 6-7.5)? 2. Covert ops cloak , any tought? 3. More resist/survivability ? I will pray for more change in those direction to the tape altar i made (should put a pick somewhere i guess) and hopefully you will "let go" of a bit of intel to feed our hunger
Haramir Haleths	Posted - 2009.04.14 13:57:00 - [372] Dont forget the Jump Range increase at least to 8 LJ. CoC not needed imo. And a little bit more tank would be very nice ...
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.14 18:38:00 - [373] Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 14/04/2009 18:38:27 Originally by: Valadeya uthanaras Originally by: CCP Chronotis yes, this is a good summary of the changes which will be in Apocrypha 1.1. As mentioned previously, we are not done yet with the black ops and the discussion here has been very useful. More changes will come in the future. Any bonus insight you could give us about the "more change part" , because even if you did solve the main problem (aka jump into cyno jammed and lower fuel use) there is mainly 3 points that come very often in this very civilized discussion: 1. Jump range increase (aka need at least 6-7.5)? 2. Covert ops cloak , any tought? 3. More resist/survivability ? I will pray for more change in those direction to the tape altar i made (should put a pick somewhere i guess) and hopefully you will "let go" of a bit of intel to feed our hunger 4. Changes to cov ops cyno gen changes? (cyno while cloaked)? 5. More gank? (Gank/DPS should be their tank, at least if they're supposed to be the subtlety type) edit: I personally stand by they don't need CoC, especially if cov ops cynoes can be generated while cloaked, which btw, is my favorite idea. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.14 20:16:00 - [374] Originally by: Mr Ignitious 4. Changes to cov ops cyno gen changes? (cyno while cloaked)? 5. More gank? (Gank/DPS should be their tank, at least if they're supposed to be the subtlety type) 4. Cyno while moving. 5. I like idea of paper thin, but heavy damage capable covert battleships. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EgoMan	Posted - 2009.04.14 20:39:00 - [375] All I know is I fly a widow and its the most worthless ship I have ever trained. It does everything poorly. Why does this ship have EWAR? Why does the scorpion hull always have to have ewar? Drop the ewar and make the ship have a purpose besides being a 700 million dollar cyno ship. "Black Ops" Implies that it does something awesome...a black ops should have survivablity and be able to kill something. Navy seals are black ops they rock, they dont run into a war zone and pop a can of smoke so that the helicopters know where to land. This ship does nothing "black ops" at all... Just like the "force recon" ships do nothing "force recon". Recon marines are BAMF's the falcon...is not. Whatever you do make it productive because these ships suck.
SauI Tigh	Posted - 2009.04.14 21:03:00 - [376] That is a good start but please also decrease the amount of fuel it costs to jb other ships around.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.14 21:05:00 - [377] Originally by: EgoMan All I know is I fly a widow and its the most worthless ship I have ever trained. It does everything poorly. Why does this ship have EWAR? Why does the scorpion hull always have to have ewar? Drop the ewar and make the ship have a purpose besides being a 700 million dollar cyno ship. "Black Ops" Implies that it does something awesome...a black ops should have survivablity and be able to kill something. Navy seals are black ops they rock, they dont run into a war zone and pop a can of smoke so that the helicopters know where to land. This ship does nothing "black ops" at all... Just like the "force recon" ships do nothing "force recon". Recon marines are BAMF's the falcon...is not. Whatever you do make it productive because these ships suck. re: rattlesnake. Further, it shouldn't be the "survivability"/tank that gets boosted, Black Ops should be a class known for its DPS tank. I'm not talking over 9000!! but have them all floating around 1000, give or take a bit depending on fitting. Obviously anything exceeding 1.2k pre-overheating could be too much, but keeping that peak figure in mind I think Black Ops could be happily formed into a premier assassin type boat. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Waxau Wormhole Backdoor Ninja Bandits	Posted - 2009.04.15 06:00:00 - [378] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: TZeer Changes so far: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in scan resolution - Small increase in cargobay - Small reduction in fuel usage. From 400 units to 300 units per LY as base. yes, this is a good summary of the changes which will be in Apocrypha 1.1. As mentioned previously, we are not done yet with the black ops and the discussion here has been very useful. More changes will come in the future. Agreed the current changes arent enough to make the ships 100% useful imo...but dear god, you've ticked off some boxes finally! That it itself makes me want to steal your virtual babies. And can i just say... # All Black Ops battleships will now have their cloaking delay bonus set to five seconds. WOOPWOOOOOP!
Bladen Kerst Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.04.15 06:55:00 - [379] Edited by: Bladen Kerst on 15/04/2009 06:55:39 Increase jump range for widow to the equivalent of jump freighter and maybe we will be able to actually use its jamming ability for something.. For example as a convoy ship for jump freighters trying to shake off scrambler at cyno field
Lord Fett	Posted - 2009.04.15 10:23:00 - [380] things that I liked to see : increased jump range : if you would follow the current titan/mom/dread/rorq/carrier scheme the black ops should be able to jump the longest (20 LY ?) the problem now is that you can only jump it a few systems wich is fine if you wanna go behind gatecamps but if you wanna jump into cynojammed systems that mostly means your going in deep into enemy lines. now that means it needs a boost to the fuel bay (more then the 100m3 extra it got now) ofc you can counter this to say just take a transport ship with fuel/lo with you to fuel the bo. the less fuel usage per ly is a nice start but still to field a large enough fleet to take out a cynojammer using only recons is troubled (unless you take 100 stealthbombers with the new sieges fitted) the problem is that isn't reasonable. so the next question is will you allow bsses to jump via the covert jump portal. if you do this + the 20 LY the titans will become nerfed and the BO might become to powerfull. so there has to be some kind of mid point where it can do what its supposed to do but not overdo it. next up is the cloaky bit. the name is black ops.. as in covert, still it can't fit a covert cloak and thus not warp around cloaked. so in short 1 : add some more jump range to it (10-20 LY) 2 : make it so bo's can jump in bsses or may b just battlecruiser size ships. 3 : covert ops cloak ? 4 : more cargospace or fuel bay

super bomberman	Posted - 2009.04.15 10:23:00 - [381] Needs more jump range, would make sense (for me at least) for it to be able to jump the same distance as carriers and such It can jump to a normal cyno, why can't it bridge to 1 as well? (including cyno gens)
Valadeya uthanaras Corp 1 Allstars PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.04.15 14:16:00 - [382] Originally by: super bomberman It can jump to a normal cyno, why can't it bridge to 1 as well? (including cyno gens) well I tested on current TQ , and you can both bridge and jump to regular " 5 mins" cyno Didnt test for cyno gens , but I asume you can also bridge and jump to them ( from click right , i got cyno gens listed ) Maybe they changed it on SiSi tought , if they did , it would be easily understandable to promote the use of covert cyno, only problem with covert cyno is you cannot bridge and jump to same cyno, not enaught time maybe increase covert cyno to 45 sec? Valadeya
Mafaka	Posted - 2009.04.15 19:07:00 - [383] Edited by: Mafaka on 15/04/2009 19:09:37 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: TZeer Changes so far: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in scan resolution - Small increase in cargobay - Small reduction in fuel usage. From 400 units to 300 units per LY as base. yes, this is a good summary of the changes which will be in Apocrypha 1.1. As mentioned previously, we are not done yet with the black ops and the discussion here has been very useful. More changes will come in the future. indeed - u guys havent done anything , anything at all worth mentioning. ship is still very very useless, radical decisions needed , u can chage them later on , but at least give it try. the ship cost 5x times more than recon and it does not do anything special at all.
isdisco3 Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.04.15 20:22:00 - [384] These changes strike me as patching a hole type of changes. They are good, but don't fix the problem. Finally, after 8 months or whatever, they fixed the coding error that made covert cyno's unable to activate in cynojammed systems. Props. Now, increase the jump range (the fuel consumption is nice, but not enough), give it a fuel bay like a carrier, and let it use covops cloaks. Beyond that I think the ships are pretty good. Give them those bonuses and I think we'd have a pretty awesome ship subset.
ChoobEating Noob Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.15 23:43:00 - [385] "All Black Ops battleships will now have their cloaking delay bonus set to five seconds." What is the current delay? (and will it affect the way BO's are used?)
Kayosoni Caldari Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.04.16 00:28:00 - [386] Originally by: ChoobEating Noob "All Black Ops battleships will now have their cloaking delay bonus set to five seconds." What is the current delay? (and will it affect the way BO's are used?) 30s ---
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.16 01:20:00 - [387] Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 01:22:46 Most severe penalty non covert cloak do to the PVP oriented black ops is scan resolution penalty. You can not target anything fast enough. In PVP is is critical. Much less so in PVE. Second one - is inability to warp cloaked. You give out yourself on approach which is a failure for a supposed covert ship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.16 03:42:00 - [388] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 01:22:46 Most severe penalty non covert cloak do to the PVP oriented black ops is scan resolution penalty. You can not target anything fast enough. In PVP is is critical. Much less so in PVE. Second one - is inability to warp cloaked. You give out yourself on approach which is a failure for a supposed covert ship. Would it not be good enough to just have covert cynoes generateable while cloaked? silences "solopwn" sentiment but allows for undetected approach of target/destination. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.04.16 08:30:00 - [389] Exact improvements (taking jump fuel conservation at 5 and jump drive calibration at 5 Old Jump Range 550m^3 (capacity actually) / 0.15 = 3666.6667 Units of fuel. (if nothing else carried) New Jump Range 650m^3 (capacity in future) / 0.15 = 4333.3333 Units of fuel. (if nothing else carried) For the maximal jumprange Jump Range: 2LY * (1+(Skillevel * 0.25)) = 2LY * (2.25) = 4.5 LY Jump Fuel: old: 400 * (1-(skilllevel0.10)) = 400 (1-(50.1)=200 new:300 (1-(skilllevel0.1)) = 300 (1-(50.1)=150 This gives us the following maximal range(with maxed Skills): Old: 3666.66667 / 200 = 18.3 LY New: 4333.33334 / 150 = 28.89 LY Which is a difference of 10.5 LY allowing at least to return from a trip of 14.445 LY. To jump this far you need additionally 25 Liquid Ozon * 8 = 200 LO and well 8 Cynos. As a small sidnote a carrier can jump with good skills: 14.625 LY in one jump means the whole way in a single jump. A carrier has *100 in mass and can carry much more, has a maximum jump range of more then 50 LY and costs the same as a black ops...
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.16 11:05:00 - [390] Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 11:05:17 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Would it not be good enough to just have covert cynoes generateable while cloaked? silences "solopwn" sentiment but allows for undetected approach of target/destination. Covert cynos are not the panacea. Rarely used module in gangs. Most tacklers do not have it. So most of the time you have to warp to target, not jump to it... Also cannot be used it same system, and it consume fuel, which is limited. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.16 15:50:00 - [391] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 11:05:17 Originally by: Mr Ignitious Would it not be good enough to just have covert cynoes generateable while cloaked? silences "solopwn" sentiment but allows for undetected approach of target/destination. Covert cynos are not the panacea. Rarely used module in gangs. Most tacklers do not have it. So most of the time you have to warp to target, not jump to it... Also cannot be used it same system, and it consume fuel, which is limited. But thats the point, it means if you want to use your black ops for pvp you have to make sure your gang supports its role. Black Ops, especially with their amount of tank, aren't meant for the outright toe to toe combat, their job is to quickly snuff small camps, surprise ratters and what not. You wouldn't want to use a black ops in your big RR gang because then you're ignoring the entire benefit of a black ops, undetected approach. Gangs/scenarios where a black ops WOULD fit in is with a gang made up of CoC only ships (ie: force recons). It would work best as you have 1 arazu essentially imitating a solo player flying around, if he finds something suitable he could warp cloaked to a target and cyno cloaked so that when the black ops jumps it'll be near the target which is basically the same as what having a CoC would do EXCEPT it needs assistance to do it thus it won't be a "solopwnmobile." Not to mention if they want an ideal amount of DPS you'll probably want at least 3 black ops to jump to that cyno. They would make for great hit and run type assassins. For that purpose, like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag. As for fuel, like that above poster just mathed out it wouldn't be difficult for a black ops to get itself to the target via cyno and out via cyno. Tbh the bridge isn't really worth it since the things it can jump can all warp cloaked anyways so they can get wherever they want on their own. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.16 19:00:00 - [392] Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 19:03:50 Originally by: Mr Ignitious like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag. Currently they do not belong to cloaky gang either. Want a bet? 90% of your cloaked gang will NOT have a covert cyno fitted. And of these 10% who will, only 20% will remember (and dare) to use it if sutuation arise. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.16 23:39:00 - [393] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 16/04/2009 19:03:50 Originally by: Mr Ignitious like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag. Currently they do not belong to cloaky gang either. Want a bet? 90% of your cloaked gang will NOT have a covert cyno fitted. And of these 10% who will, only 20% will remember (and dare) to use it if sutuation arise. Thats because right now Black Ops have no use what so ever and need to decloak to use their cyno gen. If it gets changed though the black ops pilot can say "yo, i need someone to fit a cov ops cyno gen." Then its done. You're saying RIGHT NOW (which is where the problem is persisting) dictates that the problem will remain after my proposed change gets put in place. Besides that, your argument there is nearly equivalent to saying "Noone just randomly fits normal cyno gens for a random carrier pilot to tag along on the roam." The gang HAS to be DESIGNED around the black ops first and made clear its a black ops gang. If your gang doesn't want to bring a covert cyno gen then you have no right or reason to use a black ops at all. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 00:15:00 - [394] Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 00:18:24 Originally by: Mr Ignitious If your gang doesn't want to bring a covert cyno gen then you have no right or reason to use a black ops at all. It's a waste to base all Black Ops usefullness around cynogen on other ship. Cloaked cyno can be useful, but i think it is not be really different from current covert cyno, except for better survivability of a ship who light it. Current covert cyno usage is quite tactically limited. Please explain, how exactly and against who you want to use your 'cloaked cyno'? I'm trying to see how it helps to attack someone? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 02:03:00 - [395] Originally by: rgreat Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 00:18:24 Originally by: Mr Ignitious If your gang doesn't want to bring a covert cyno gen then you have no right or reason to use a black ops at all. It's a waste to base all Black Ops usefullness around cynogen on other ship. Cloaked cyno can be useful, but i think it is not be really different from current covert cyno, except for better survivability of a ship who light it. Current covert cyno usage is quite tactically limited. Please explain, how exactly and against who you want to use your 'cloaked cyno'? I'm trying to see how it helps to attack someone? I was trying to say it before, but I'll try and be clear this time. Right now, if cynoer needs to uncloak to cyno then the target is preemptively alerted of the black ops jumping in giving them time to warp out or whatever. Since there is a lock delay for the cynoer it becomes tricky how you want to get your tackles then before everything tries to gtfo. If the cyno could be made while cloaked then the black ops could enter and engage with out any prior warning. Also, they won't have that lock delay issue either to help with tackling. (In this case cloaks aren't even that crucial). How I would use them then is have my cloaky cynoer get out ahead and find a target. Once they find a target/gate camp that can be stamped out with a quick application of DPS, I'd have 5 (+/- 2, depending on what I can get) black ops jump in and wipe out whatever was there. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 09:02:00 - [396] Originally by: Mr Ignitious I was trying to say it before, but I'll try and be clear this time. Right now, if cynoer needs to uncloak to cyno then the target is preemptively alerted of the black ops jumping in giving them time to warp out or whatever. Since there is a lock delay for the cynoer it becomes tricky how you want to get your tackles then before everything tries to gtfo. If the cyno could be made while cloaked then the black ops could enter and engage with out any prior warning. Also, they won't have that lock delay issue either to help with tackling. (In this case cloaks aren't even that crucial). How I would use them then is have my cloaky cynoer get out ahead and find a target. Once they find a target/gate camp that can be stamped out with a quick application of DPS, I'd have 5 (+/- 2, depending on what I can get) black ops jump in and wipe out whatever was there. Hm, do you plan to use this approach against farmers in belts? These will warp out and cloak as soon as your cyno ship enter local. You don't really have time for that cyno stuff, you just need to be fast. And if you want to wait a lot and set a trap, i think it is just better to use cloaked interdictor. Same with the gates... target jump in... and warp out, unless you used a interdictor bubble + tacklers. Static targets these you can take your time to approach for putting up a cyno are kinda rare. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 17:13:00 - [397] While some people are cautious enough to dock up/safe whenever a neut/red enters I find, in my experience, that if 1 cloaky ship enters local none too many go into a full panic and dock up, otherwise they would never make much isk. What does tend to warrant the docking up though is when 1 red/neut enters local but 1-2 jumps away are their scouted gang bang brigade. My hope would be that black ops can sit at a more comfortable and less known place so that the one ship doesn't get the "dock up" reaction. However, I think that is where we disagree. I would like to know then what you would like to see black ops used for so I can understand a little better why you think cloaked cynoes aren't worth the effort to change. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 20:21:00 - [398] I'd myself like to see BO as a medium-long range heavy damager part of cloaked gangs. Not exactly sniper ships, but with range of 50-100km range, preferrably turrets with high tracking and damage. But close to no tank. With COC and fast locking. Tactic (for example): While recons and frig work closer BO decloak at med-long range, lock target, put there 1000+ DPS and then recloak or run if under direct threat. Portals and cynos are only secondary, just in case if situation arise. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 21:45:00 - [399] Ok, thats a little better for me to understand. I definitely share your sentiment on WTFDPS but no tank really, I like the guns as tank idea. About the range I was mostly impartial but ok if I can get range and tracking then I'm good with that. I still don't think a cov ops cloak is needed though, you could just ask 1 of your cloaky pilots to fit the generator for it, could even make it funny if you had a conventional fleet in a tough fight then suddenly 5 black ops appear 70km off and laying down the pain. More scan res goes with out saying. Since it is inevitable these ships will be pricey they do need to retain a certain amount of survivability. I think good cloaked speed could help with that. Bridges I agree are mostly pointless especially due to fuel problems. I think that with just the Improved Cloaks and a cov cyno they could accomplish the tactic you outlined in your post. Over all I think we agree and the gank role to fill in gangs (I just prefer to see them accompany sneaky gangs, but in yours it adds another opportunity of use in conventional fleets) Now all we need is for CCP to come back and tell us what they think. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:04:00 - [400] Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 22:06:33 Well, battleships cannot be fast enough with any reasonable speed bonus, they are more or less static anyway. So i think cloaked speed bonus not needed. For me Black ops mobility relies on rewarps. Thats why covert cloak is needed... to rewarp cloaked. It is too risky to rewarp back to battle wihtout cloak, you do not know where you exit warp. Maybe near lucky tackler, or on the edge of the bubble. This means you cant rewarp in battle, and combat value of Black Ops drops severely. Other reason: is to have more free 'bonus slots' to use for offensive bonuses, instead of ones unnerfing harmful effects of simple cloak. With simple cloak you will need ALOT of bonuses to negate it shortcomings. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:30:00 - [401] the way I see it though, in their usage as gank ships, is that the rewarp thing shouldn't be an issue/it should be a limitation. They jump in and have their chance at ganking their targets. If they get in trouble they can take their chances killing it or just gtfo and wait for an out cyno. I only say this in honor balance reasons. I can't deny it would be awesome if they got CoC's but I don't want them to be too good either. I'd also say that I don't anticipate using gates often at all with the black ops ships. Because of this bubbles are less of an issue. Going back to my plan, if they have a dedicated cynoer and the Bops need to warp out they could have their cynoer give them a new warp in. It requires coordination and communication but I think it will still be plenty effective; effective enough to make them worth it. The point of needing to dedicate more slots to compensate for simple cloaks is true enough, but maybe just a bonus to a reduction of the penalty to scan res. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.17 22:39:00 - [402] Edited by: rgreat on 17/04/2009 22:45:13 Well, it can be so for a pirate oriented warfare where your victim is rarely put up a good fight. But with 0.0 gang fight it is not. And about 'too good', imho slow and vulnerable 800+ mil ship which is quite easy to kill with simple cruiser (if you catch it) cannot be overpowered by mere cloak. If BO cannot fit COC i rather get dedicated T1 Battleship to gank with. Both cheaper and more effective. Mark my words: if Black Ops will be 'try or die' style of ship, they will not be used on TQ. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.18 01:25:00 - [403] I fly about equal between 0.0 and low sec (I much prefer low sec though... aside from gate guns) I'm thinking about roaming gangs, and that is a good point. I think though that once your scout (which will have a cov ops cyno since if you plan to use a bops you should make your gang aware you're coming) finds a target/group to engage you could have your black ops get to within jump range via conventional gates. I think the jump range increase would definitely help because 5jumps away really isn't that far. (I see your quote just made me reconsider how I'm thinking about them) I should change my "tactic" to not using gates to enter the fight. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it's going to be very difficult to make black ops useful for any sort of roam gank boat. Black ops (with their current bonuses and weapon setups) aren't suited for fights really at all. Alternatively the ranged DPS is still an amiable ideal, coming back to a large rework of the ships. If it were implemented properly (making the ships clearly reflect they should be used as a mid range roaming gang DPS support) I think a CoC wouldn't be outrageous. Thinking like you get your fleet into a fight but keep your bops a few systems back to help disguise your numbers. Once you get your engagement jump in the bops at desired range and then let them do their thing. It should be made however that if they get CoC's they can't (easily) make fits that allow them to fly around solo killing people because that's what I think is a big fear. That or CCP intends black ops as like homeland security that have short jump range so they are limited to being quick to get to where invaders are i hope not. I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Jedziah Asshats and Alcoholics Turbo.	Posted - 2009.04.18 13:11:00 - [404] OK So first of all. Well done so far on the changes. The BlackOps has been really given it's niche now and allows alliances such as ours to move past ridiculous blob gate camps and get a pvp fix. The fuel bay is certainly needed. Even with the expanded space, we are getting through 'topes quicker than Mr. T drinks his milk. I personally think that there is one thing the BlackOps needs that would make it the perfect ship for the role it is being pushed into. That is a fitting array. Allowing the ships it can jump bridge to refit at it would be an absolute godsend for the small gang pvp community. I'm unsure to how that fits in with maintence/corp hangar in the database for the capital vessels and Orca but I am sure that could kill two birds with one stone as it could be used for fuel storage until the fuel bay is correctly implemented. Real good job so far though. You have made them a great ship to fly. In summary: - Covert Cyno avoidance is fantastic - Fuel Bay desperately needed - Ship Fitting Ability? - Maint/Corp Hangar could provide ship fitting with a temporary cure to the fuel bay? Just my two pence -Jed
Strure Deadly Ringers	Posted - 2009.04.18 15:56:00 - [405] Edited by: Strure on 18/04/2009 16:03:08 Taken in conjunction with SB switching to torps, it seems BO's have become bomber tenders with recons remaining EW and tackling for the fleet. The purpose appears to be striking at an enemy's back yard, to disrupt what were safe industrial operations, just screwing with system ratters, or hitting fleets being assembled. If this is the purpose what changes do and don't make sense? 1) Cov Cloak? Well, this scenario calls for point blank hot drops initiated by a single recon (Arazu, usuallY). Here cloak only lets you safe spot after the battle and preparing to safely disembark system....SO not really useful 2) Local invisibility? The cyno recon ship would benefit, but the fleet is striking fast and hard for maximum confusion. Local is hardly how the targets will know they're under attack. Except, when the single pilot in local makes them think seriously about a BO drop. But here local serves as a way to passively disrupt enemies, especially if a known cov cyno pilot parks in system...lots of nasty games you could play w/o local invis. 3) More DPS? Well, the bombers have that generally covered against large targets. So DPS against cruiser class ships would be a real benefit. Tracking and weapon radius bonuses could handy over raw damage vs. other BS classed ships. 4) Fleet modules? Oh yea 5) Jump range? No brainer, this is an offensive weapon. This short looks like a defensive role. I think all BO pilots wonder about the logic for such a prenerfed range 6) Speed? Maybe not so important as a Bomber defender. 7)Simultaneous bridging? Awesome idea. Can be nearly done with practiced pilots, but some code would just make better fleet coordination. How do the other pilot's see the BO's primary role now?
DOARota Gallente BURN EDEN Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.04.19 05:36:00 - [406] After using them post-patch,they are perfect. A fuel bay would be icing on the cake in the future, but other than that you guys at ccp can call this one a success.
Mafaka Amarr The 5th Freedom Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.19 19:16:00 - [407] Edited by: Mafaka on 19/04/2009 19:22:02 Edited by: Mafaka on 19/04/2009 19:16:32 lol lol lol they have done done nothing - all was insignificant, pointless its like giving the person with only one hand an extra , the 6th finger on it - he still gona have one hand - what the point ? no one is going to be encouraged to get black op because of this change, everyone wana be in stealth bombers which like 20 days of training and far more fun and usefull right now average player
Bobbeh Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.20 06:52:00 - [408] My Fellow alliance mate speaks the truth. Tho in my Redeemer i love the lack of a decloak delay on locking. The target still knows im there because i have to warp to grid unless im camping the grid. Even as a bomber defender, ecm is more effective BOps are still BS's and therefore cant and should be anti cruiser/frigate ships. That role is perfectly filled by arazu's and rapiers, and pilgrims. The changes so far are awesome yes and steps in the right direction. But Unless the BOps is meant to be a Second line ship to Stealth bombers and recons it still needs more loving, Right now it is a Black ops Tactical Relocation and logistics BS. If this is there role so be it, but then they shouldnt really have damage bonus's cause they really are used to move other ships into and out of place.
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.20 14:48:00 - [409] Originally by: Bobbeh If this is there role so be it, but then they shouldnt really have damage bonus's cause they really are used to move other ships into and out of place. Damn that sounds boring. I hope not and we can just get some pewpew boost (RE: rgreat & ignitious discussion above) I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Hatch Minmatar Ixion Defence Systems Sc0rched Earth	Posted - 2009.04.23 05:31:00 - [410] so, when are they going to go actually make the panther usefull. right now, it's a doorstop

Missuri	Posted - 2009.04.23 11:18:00 - [411] They made changes but not enough, sadly no reactions so far from CCP about the useness of the Black ops!
easei Corp 1 Allstars PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.04.23 17:39:00 - [412] I don't see any clear bonus with this class of ships. The redeemer has an assault ship role the widow has a recon ship role and the panther and sin roles are useless considering they are a battleship class. Also 125% velocity while cloaked doesn't do much for a support or a damage standpoint. IMO change the bonuses to buff the role not the ship Try this: 10% reduction of covert jump portal fuel consumption and 10% bonus jump drive range per black ops skill level. (increases range of the portals) 6.75ly with all level 5's If you want the ships to be encouraged to be on grid in combat rather than cloaked in a safe give them a limited logistical bonus to remote reps (50% range per level of racial BS ~ 21KM reps) so they can defend the bombers and recons they jump. That should replace the damage bonus on each. Any bonuses you add that increases the amount of damage or offensive capabilities will result in a ship that's used solo. By boosting gang defensive and the jump portal roles you make it a very effective tool for the guerrilla warfare game, while using it solo isn't that effective due to the HP of a tier 1 BS and damage of a cruiser.
Mafaka Amarr The 5th Freedom Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.04.23 21:11:00 - [413] Edited by: Mafaka on 23/04/2009 21:13:24 black ops are still handicapped ships, and ccp thinks that they fixed them or something? why they did they start on ECM drons when black ops are still unfixed? what about jump range and resistances on it average player
Tover Chris	Posted - 2009.04.24 15:04:00 - [414] Edited by: Tover Chris on 24/04/2009 15:17:46 Any ship that requires skills like JDO V and Cyno V, and on top of that cost 800mil should be a bit more...useful. increase jump range. 2ly is a joke giev covops cloak giev agiliy bonusi giev more resistances make them be what they should be...cyno jammer liberators.
Vasili Z Pyre of Gods	Posted - 2009.04.25 08:01:00 - [415] They shouldn't be able to warp cloaked, but sin and panther definitely need a boost.... Plus jump-range. ------- P0GS is recruiting; no fatties
Mrsticks Minmatar RNCGM Inc.	Posted - 2009.04.25 21:22:00 - [416] Nice Now you just need to let Blockade runners use the Bridge and Im all set to go play Long Live TEXAS! Texans join the Texas channel in game plz.
Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2009.04.26 20:17:00 - [417] Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 26/04/2009 20:22:13 Ok I'll ask the questions.. Why not give all jump capable ships fuel tanks? Why not allow all jump capable ships independant jump capability that doesn't require cyno fields, I don't believe it's actually required especially now jump inhibitors and system interdiction have been in game for some time, instead allowing them to jump to a random position in the target system perhaps or someone already there independantly. This is one of the things that really gets to me as a capital pilot not being able to move independantly, early days yes it was required however these days it's not, in fact it's rather tedious. Same goes for black ops, there's little point of having a ship that can Jump with the intent of insertion if it can't get it'self there in the first place. In fact here's a wacky idea how's about making all ships move this way, eliminate the focal points such as gates expand the universe's colonising space vastly to suit the population and eliminate blob warfare by making people split up into smaller groups to fight throughout a system instead of warping 400 peeps from one focal point to another and the ole point click boom lag syndrome? With good design and planning it can be done. Alot more needs to be done about the core design elements of eve, that haven't changed one bit since beta, they worked then with low population but simply fail completely now with so many and such a small universe, it's time for something fresh and new rather than just slinging content at us constantly. Improve the core design of the game and gameplay.
Evlyna	Posted - 2009.04.28 15:54:00 - [418] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: TZeer Changes so far: - Covert cyno in cynojammed systems - Small increase in scan resolution - Small increase in cargobay - Small reduction in fuel usage. From 400 units to 300 units per LY as base. yes, this is a good summary of the changes which will be in Apocrypha 1.1. As mentioned previously, we are not done yet with the black ops and the discussion here has been very useful. More changes will come in the future. After all this time and 13 pages of discussion not mentionning the amount of threads started since the first appearance of the BOPS.......... Can't say I'm jumping in joy I admit. ok... Yay for the cyno-jammed thing. But you barely scratched the surface of the problem.
Solar Ra	Posted - 2009.04.29 23:30:00 - [419] Should the lack of sticky of this post be taken as a sign of it considered resolved? If a fuel bay is not possible then maybe a very small maintenance bay 500-1000m3 for rearming and refitting in the field, can double as a fuel bay if the player choose so , this will make it a much better support ship and allow it to help the fleet as no other means of refitting behind (in with current jump range) enemy lines.
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.04.30 09:44:00 - [420] This thread is dropped out of being sticky . This will be the last buff blackops will ever get. Look up for a new blackops ship soon to be introduced , probably t3 chasis after t3 battlecruisers are introduced. There is always room for making people train more skills . I have invested 1 year into this ship from being pure amarr to training caldari up to chimera skills along with widow(blackops) . What is got is 3 nerfs and another one soon to come . Missile nerf + shield tank nerf(painters) + ecm nerf , and ecm drones / ecm mechanics itself is on the nerf table atm. Like the ship was overpowered or something , and it only got a locking speed increase which was very good . But the summary of buffs and nerfs now is that nobody smart would fly these ships in actual combat if they are not ridiciluously rich . I bought this ship , fitted it and can fly it , but it wont ever leave the station except in empire space killing belt frigates. I guess this was intended. From what i understand , investing billions into t1 ships and skills give you 500 times more efficiency than you would have with trying to make blackops useful . You can die countless of times and still not care, while the effect will still be sound. Looking at the big picture , now that stealth bombers are boosted and t3 cloakers are introduced, which are the latest advertisement of eve . Blackops are to only serve them as portal officers and nothing else. Just as falcons were alts, blackops are soon going to be portal alts , which will also require covert cyno alts .

Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.04.30 20:22:00 - [421] Lol this thread is full of so much fail it's scary. Lotta of completely misinformed peeps with no clue what they're talking about (hihi Cov Cyno doesn't go on the Black Ops) As usual BE guys have the right of it, welcome the changes thus far, has definitely improved their usability, can't wait for the fuel bay. Jump Range could use a slight increase now that they are usable in Sov 0.0 (which is more spread out than NPC 0.0/low sec regions close to empire). Originally by: Mr Ignitious Originally by: rgreat Originally by: Mr Ignitious Would it not be good enough to just have covert cynoes generateable while cloaked? silences "solopwn" sentiment but allows for undetected approach of target/destination. Covert cynos are not the panacea. Rarely used module in gangs. Most tacklers do not have it. So most of the time you have to warp to target, not jump to it... Also cannot be used it same system, and it consume fuel, which is limited. But thats the point, it means if you want to use your black ops for pvp you have to make sure your gang supports its role. Black Ops, especially with their amount of tank, aren't meant for the outright toe to toe combat, their job is to quickly snuff small camps, surprise ratters and what not. You wouldn't want to use a black ops in your big RR gang because then you're ignoring the entire benefit of a black ops, undetected approach. Gangs/scenarios where a black ops WOULD fit in is with a gang made up of CoC only ships (ie: force recons). It would work best as you have 1 arazu essentially imitating a solo player flying around, if he finds something suitable he could warp cloaked to a target and cyno cloaked so that when the black ops jumps it'll be near the target which is basically the same as what having a CoC would do EXCEPT it needs assistance to do it thus it won't be a "solopwnmobile." Not to mention if they want an ideal amount of DPS you'll probably want at least 3 black ops to jump to that cyno. They would make for great hit and run type assassins. For that purpose, like i said, black ops do not belong in conventional non-cloaky gangs. They don't have the HP/tank to do so along with their price tag. As for fuel, like that above poster just mathed out it wouldn't be difficult for a black ops to get itself to the target via cyno and out via cyno. Tbh the bridge isn't really worth it since the things it can jump can all warp cloaked anyways so they can get wherever they want on their own. Mr Ignitious, this and other things you've said you wanted the Black Ops to be able to do, that's exactly what they already do now. Except for this silly notion of popping Covert Cynos while cloaked? Why on earth would you do that, how would that help? Here's a hint: Who do you think tackles? Black Ops are fine, few minor tweaks here and there. They have a clear Role which they excel at, a role that's been lacking for so long that people turned to blobbing to accomplish said role, now they refuse to go back to the time where you didn't a huge gang to kill stuff and get things accomplished because most players are too scared to fight without their blobs. btw Sin/Panther could use a looking at (Make the Sin a Megathron ffs) The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2009.05.02 05:06:00 - [422] Prolly the biggest balane change requried as with most T2 ships is the insane market prices that preclude their use for the purpose for which they were designed. But as with carriers free independant movement that doesn't require Cyno fields to jump. The other being if they are going to remain so expensive which I hope they don't is their resistances that give them the durability to justify the cost. And at 1 Billion for a BS that's going to be hard to do in my eyes and many others.
Destructor1792 Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.02 08:27:00 - [423] Even with the new changes, my BO will stay docked up!! Apart from the odd "your mates have a target held down / cyno over / help kill it / cyno out" scenario, the cost of bridging gang mates is still too high!! And lets not forget the pitifull jump range of the things!! I skilled up for one the moment they were released & going by their description of espionage, was looking forward to some fun times... How sorely I was mistaken I still say no to CoC (although it's getting harder to stick with this as T3's now have that option ) Either Fix them properly or just remove the damn things from the game - Stop faffing about over them! Yes, people will ***** & moan if they're removed for a month or two and then move on.. I (and many others) still want to see the follow: True T2 resists Ability to cyno to a system without the use of a cov-cyno (albeit dumped anywhere in the system!) Increase in the base jump range Removal of fuel costs to bridge gang members (make it cap or mass dependant instead). \rant off \chill pill on standby ______________________________________ Bringing The Fun Back [gold]I Have No Fear, That's your Problem[/go
Mafaka Amarr The 5th Freedom Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.05.03 08:49:00 - [424] Edited by: Mafaka on 03/05/2009 08:49:22 so are they gona leave it like that - / im really disappointed average player
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.05.04 06:36:00 - [425] Edited by: Killerhound on 04/05/2009 06:37:06 Guys cool down me being happy that they look at it after a year of complaining. Just for the lazzy ones again a little "essay" about the possible changes: Make Covert Ops Cloaking Device usable on BO's Give them true T2 Resistance Give them an even greater fuel reduction Give them a dedicated Fuel bay Modify their offensive power (some say more, some less) Give them more jump Range (my personal favorit)
Kaiden Exeider Gallente Astrowork Systems Haven Innovations	Posted - 2009.05.04 08:41:00 - [426] I've been asking for capitals and other jump drive ships to be able to lock onto stargates, or the star's gravity well, or planet gravity well. being dropped somewhere in the system. as well as being able to perform "Tactical Jumps" which would allow In-System jumps, assuming you have the skill trained. I've been asking this for a long time, I hope someday it gets considered. -Kaiden Kaiden Exeider - CSM Candidate
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.05.04 19:15:00 - [427] Subject is dropped it seems. Pity. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.05.04 19:20:00 - [428] Oh its not dropped, there is just no capacity to make changes in the upcoming patch so dropped for now yes. However has the thread demonstrated, there is a lot of confusion and disagreement on what a black ops ship should do or be capable of doing. We would definitely like your ideas on what your think black ops should be like. and have bookmarked this thread for the future.

Komi Toran	Posted - 2009.05.04 21:00:00 - [429] OK, FYI, I have never flown a black ops, and have never seen one flown. So, prepare to eviscerate me. However, let me suggest that, for those who are calling for the black ops to be a better PvP boat, instead of giving the black ops T2 resists and the cov-ops cloak, the black ops gets a significant drop in its sig radius and a boost to sensor strength. This will have the effects of making it more effective against BS-sized weapons and unusually resistant to ECM, while simultaneously having the bonus of making it harder to scan out, thus augmenting its stealthy role. In other words, the black ops will gain a buff that is useful no matter how you use the ship.
Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.05.04 21:27:00 - [430] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Oh its not dropped, there is just no capacity to make changes in the upcoming patch so dropped for now yes. However has the thread demonstrated, there is a lot of confusion and disagreement on what a black ops ship should do or be capable of doing. We would definitely like your ideas on what your think black ops should be like. and have bookmarked this thread for the future. 1) Start with a T1 battleship. That is, full dps and HP. This will not be overpowered, as they will still die quite easily to a T1 battleship and a random second ship (BC, Blackbird, etc). This is necessary to avoid the problem of the best black ops setup being lots of cargo expanders, currently the lack of tank makes taking one into direct combat a stupid idea. 2) Add the covops cloak. Learn from your experience with the stealth bombers, the only cloak worth using in combat (as opposed to hiding cloaked in a safespot so you don't get probed) is the covert ops cloak. If the covert ops cloak would be too powerful, remove the cloak bonuses entirely and replace them with useful combat bonuses. 3) Add useful jump drive abilities. The current jump drive and portal are fine concepts, but the fuel use needs to be fixed. Maximum range may need to be looked at, but the ability to use the covert ops cloak for movement may offset that problem a bit. 4) Reduce cost. Right now they're just too expensive to use in any fight with even the slightest risk of losing, especially compared to carriers. Bring costs down to the 300-500 million ISK range. This still leaves them the most expensive T2 PvP ship (marauders are not for PvP), but makes them considerably cheaper than capitals, and should make people more willing to risk their black ops in combat, as opposed to just ganking helpless ratters with 5v1 odds. 5) Fix the odd ship and bonus choices. Why is the Sin the black ops and the Megathron the marauder, while the Dominix is the carebear ship and the Megathron is the classic Gallente PvP ship? Why does the Widow have competing ECM and missile bonuses that are impossible to use effectively at the same time? Etc. The intended result is a ship that is capable of solving the major problem with recon gangs: lack of dps. The proposed ship is no better than a T1 battleship in direct combat, but if its special abilities are used properly, it can be extremely effective. Making them into proper direct combat ships (IOW, tank and covops cloak) instead of this absurd "hotdrop lone newbies in battleships" role is mandatory, especially now that stealth bombers have been boosted to provide comparable dps for a fraction of the cost. Until these changes are made, the role of a black ops will be sitting at a POS/station on an alt, jump bridging stealth bombers. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!

Sera Ryskin	Posted - 2009.05.04 21:28:00 - [431] My ideal black ops: Corrupter Hull: Armageddon Role: Black Ops Following the stunning success of the Curse recon ship, Khanid Innovation was the natural choice to take over Viziam's failed Redeemer project. The Khanid engineers spared no expense with this ship, supplementing the Redeemer's terrifying laser batteries with state of the art shield and electronics systems borrowed from their Caldari contacts. Developer: Khanid Innovation The Corrupter represents somewhat of a departure from traditional Khanid designs, a difference that has led some experts to suspect a partnership with elements of the Sanshas pirate faction, rather than the Caldari State. Official sources of course deny all such rumors. Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in large energy turret capacitor use and 5% shield resistances per level Black Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large energy turret ROF and 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal range per level Role bonus: able to fit Covert Ops Cloak II and Covert Jump Portal I Change the slot layout to 6 mid, 5 low, increase base shield HP to 8500 (same as Rokh) and adjust fitting to allow the following setup: 6x Mega Pulse II 1x Covops Cloak 1x Jump Portal 1x 100mn MWD II 1x Heavy Cap Booster II 2x Large Shield Extender II 2x Invulnerability Field II 3x Heatsink II 1x Damage Control II 1x Power Diagnostic System II 2x Extender rigs The result: a ship with the required stealth abilities, and enough dps and tank to make it worth risking in direct combat, but not so much dps and tank that it can't be taken down by a good T1 battleship pilot (or a decent T1 battleship pilot + a support ship or two). And yes, I understand that it's not perfectly Khanid. However, a Khanid black Armageddon would just be unspeakably awesome (I would have a hard time ever flying any other ship), but there are two limiting factors: 1) It must use lasers. Anything other than lasers on an Armageddon hull is just wrong. 2) It must have some Caldari influence. Missiles are out, so that leaves shield tanking. The ship above is the obvious result. As for the others, my suggested changes: Widow: slot layout to 7 mid, 6 low, bonuses to BS: 5% shield resists, 5% missile kinetic damage. BO: 5% missile ROF, 10% missile velocity. Or, swap the kinetic bonus to missile precision, if the dps would be too much. Panther: BS: 5% projectile damage, 10% projectile falloff. BO: 5% projectile ROF, 20% cloaked velocity Sin: BS: 10% drone damage/HP, 7.5% armor rep amount. BO: +5km drone control range, +10% neut/NOS amount Adjust fittings to allow setups comparable to the Corrupter above. ========== Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.05.05 09:00:00 - [432] Edited by: rgreat on 05/05/2009 09:05:55 I rather have Sin without drone bay at all. Main problem with Sin is easy: Drones suck @ PVP. At least large ones do. They are too slow and easy to lose. I wish Gallente BO was based on Megathron or even Hyperion, although hyperion sucks too due to weak tracking... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:58:00 - [433] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Oh its not dropped, there is just no capacity to make changes in the upcoming patch so dropped for now yes. However has the thread demonstrated, there is a lot of confusion and disagreement on what a black ops ship should do or be capable of doing. We would definitely like your ideas on what your think black ops should be like. and have bookmarked this thread for the future. +Fuel Bay that you're working on already, ~1,500-2,500m3 space for fuel +Jump Drive base LY range increased from 2LY to 3LY (6LY w/ JDCIV, 6.75LY with JDCV) Sin redesigned with Megathron Hull/Fittings (7l/4m/8h, 125m3 Drone bay, 6 Turrets, Gallente BS V = 25% Large Hybrid Turret Damage, 37.5% Large Hybrid Turret Tracking). Redeemer is fine, Widow is already a Raven, Panther is already a Tempest (just move 1 Utility highslot from the Panther to a Low, ie 7l/5m/7h) Black Ops Skill bonus #1 changed to: 7.5-10%% damage per level to appropriate weapon systems (Redeemer = Large Energy Turrets, Sin = Large Hybrids, Panther = Large Projectiles, Widow = Cruise/Torps) leave the Black Ops Skill bonus #2 ie cloaked velocity bonus, as is. This compensates for the lack of weapons by raising their default damage mod/boosting their DPS up to compete with T1 BS DPS. Marauders are PVE, they should have >T1 BS tanks. Black Ops are PVP, and what they need more than anything is more DPS, their DPS should be > T1 BS, though their tanks should be weaker (The same as they are now). Damage is crucial to their role. I should note that BOs design is fine, their role is fine. They do exactly what you would expect them to do from reading their description. People who do not understand their role or even read the description want them to be glorified taxi's for lazy recon gangs, which isn't what they were designed to do. The limited Jump Range, fuel costs to bridge, and jumping via covert cyno's were all intentional design choices, not blatant errors that need correcting. People who's expectations of "what the ships were supposed to do" that drastically exceed the ships actual abilities simply do not understand the ship class. They are simply trying to use them incorrectly. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
thoth rothschild Strategic Solutions Ltd. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.05.07 12:01:00 - [434] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Oh its not dropped, there is just no capacity to make changes in the upcoming patch so dropped for now yes. However has the thread demonstrated, there is a lot of confusion and disagreement on what a black ops ship should do or be capable of doing. We would definitely like your ideas on what your think black ops should be like. and have bookmarked this thread for the future. i like it as a black ops command ship (possibility of gang modules)
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.05.07 12:16:00 - [435] I am joining the idea of my comrade, STEALTH GANG WARFARE would be absolutely perfect for that ship, exactly what its meant to be!
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.05.07 12:18:00 - [436] Edited by: Killerhound on 07/05/2009 12:17:56 Oops sorry doublepost :)
Vigaz	Posted - 2009.05.07 13:51:00 - [437] It's quite clear that almost no1 uses this billion ship in TQ. If I can enter into a sys with a covertop ship, then why I cannot just jump in with more stealthy ships (SB/Recon)? They can warp cloaked and they are fast enough to pass almost any 0.0 camp. So where is the plus to use the Covertop bridge? just to bring BOs into the sys? Why it's needed? DPS -> SB (1,5xSB DPS = 1xBO DPS best scenario) Ewar -> Recon (also Widow but with lower scan res/speed/agility than a recon) Tackler -> Ceptor/Recon Where is the role for BO? Just give the BO T2 resists and CoC in sisi to test if it's worth or not.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.07 14:07:00 - [438] Originally by: Vigaz It's quite clear that almost no1 uses this billion ship in TQ. Burn Eden and a few others hotdrop Black Ops, but most people aren't willing to risk the kind of ISK that a Black Ops costs for pure hotdropping. I would imagine that more people use them for bridging around bombers/recons and such, but as those activities don't produce any sort of record (i.e. no killmail) it's harder to get a feel for how many people are using the bridge capability. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Vigaz	Posted - 2009.05.07 15:40:00 - [439] Originally by: Bronson Hughes Originally by: Vigaz It's quite clear that almost no1 uses this billion ship in TQ. Burn Eden and a few others hotdrop Black Ops, but most people aren't willing to risk the kind of ISK that a Black Ops costs for pure hotdropping. I would imagine that more people use them for bridging around bombers/recons and such, but as those activities don't produce any sort of record (i.e. no killmail) it's harder to get a feel for how many people are using the bridge capability. Still I dont understand why I should bridge SBs and Recons. They cannot move alone? Default fit for SB and Recon is MWD and CoC, so really who cares if I can bridge them to a system where they can enter easily by their own? BTW GG for the Burn Eden KMs with BO.
Stein Voorhees Caldari Ghost in the Machine	Posted - 2009.05.07 15:49:00 - [440] Edited by: Stein Voorhees on 07/05/2009 15:50:50 Originally by: Vigaz Still I dont understand why I should bridge SBs and Recons. They cannot move alone? Default fit for SB and Recon is MWD and CoC, so really who cares if I can bridge them to a system where they can enter easily by their own? To be fair, I agree. I don't think the Covert Jump Portal is a very good use of the BO. Like you say, Covert ships can currently move through hostile space very easily, avoiding camps. But this also means that you really don't need a Covert Ops Cloak on a BO. Just use the jump drive and the need for a COCD II disappears. In fact, it was a need that was only ever there for people who just don't get BOs. However, reports from the test server (I can't patch up to it thanks to the new, rubbish patching malware that gets installed ) say that the old MWD + Cloak trick has now been nerfed into oblivion. If that stays and gets onto the live server for Covert Ops Cloaks, the BO Jump Portal might actually find a use to get your 'Covert' ships past heavily bubbled gates (but only if you already have someone who has made it past of course ).

Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.05.08 07:57:00 - [441] Me is curious.... 300 Guys work at CCP, only one is responsible for nerfing/boosting BO's ? Tell me, what are you doing in secret? WoS? Ambulation? Secret super weapon, to convice all that eve is the best game ever?
ITF	Posted - 2009.05.13 02:23:00 - [442] Edited by: ITF on 13/05/2009 02:23:48 T2 resists and increased jump range would be just fine.
ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.13 02:24:00 - [443] Let's get this bumped. Most important mentioned so far: * T2 resists to make up for missing tank slot. * Increase in base jump/bridge range (3.25 base range would be just peachy - 6.5 w/ skills) * ! FUEL BAY ! * Proper bonuses (!) * Possibly reduced fuel use/jump cap requirements. These aren't recharge fit. * Bring base HP back into line with t1 BS. (it's that of a BC atm) * Covops cloak would be nice, but i'm not holding my breath.
Postus Caldari Life is Experience	Posted - 2009.05.20 09:44:00 - [444] Hell, Id be happy with just the cover ops cloak ... well they would still bite but not as bad and almost be useable. Other than that, increase the jump range, improve/fix the scan resolution and maybe lower fuel needed
Ahz	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:38:00 - [445] Originally by: Rajere People who do not understand their role or even read the description want them to be glorified taxi's for lazy recon gangs, which isn't what they were designed to do... Maybe not, but this is exactly what I want them to do. Maybe because I'm lazy. But I've been on enough carpal tunnel-inducing, 45 jump, roving ops which produce nothing that I want a solution which will speed the whole process up. Maybe it's not what the Black Ops is for but it's a problem that they can solve. I'd get a lot more combat if there were a quick way of moving small gangs through 0.0. It's why I keep suggesting that the Black Ops portal support any frigate class hull.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:23:00 - [446] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Rajere People who do not understand their role or even read the description want them to be glorified taxi's for lazy recon gangs, which isn't what they were designed to do... Maybe not, but this is exactly what I want them to do. Maybe because I'm lazy. But I've been on enough carpal tunnel-inducing, 45 jump, roving ops which produce nothing that I want a solution which will speed the whole process up. Maybe it's not what the Black Ops is for but it's a problem that they can solve. I'd get a lot more combat if there were a quick way of moving small gangs through 0.0. It's why I keep suggesting that the Black Ops portal support any frigate class hull. That problem Black Ops can already solve, so no changes need to be made to promote it. Simply fit cargo expander IIs and don't jump your BOs into fights, just bridge sb/recons. I should note that setting up covert bridges takes :effort: and if you were truly lazy, you would use the blackops as they were intended like we do, cus we're way more lazy than you are. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Ahz	Posted - 2009.05.21 17:54:00 - [447] Originally by: Rajere if you were truly lazy, you would use the blackops as they were intended like we do.... Maybe you've spelled this out somewhere in the past. I apologize if I've missed it. What is this intended purpose that they do so well? I've been thinking about this for a while now and the only roles I can come up with are exceedingly narrow.
Anderson Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:28:00 - [448] Originally by: Rajere Sin redesigned with Megathron Hull... ...Redeemer is fine, Widow is already a Raven, Panther is already a Tempest... You= WRONG. The simple fact that you can't even take 30 seconds to look at the actual ship models in game (CCP gave us that wonderful yet useless preview option), caused me to cease reading your post right there, and regard you as a 'tard.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.21 22:56:00 - [449] Originally by: Anderson You= WRONG. The simple fact that you can't even take 30 seconds to look at the actual ship models in game (CCP gave us that wonderful yet useless preview option), caused me to cease reading your post right there, and regard you as a 'tard. lol The simple fact that you think the ship graphic has anything to do with a ships attributes, stats, slots, or bonus means that I know you're a r-tard. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Captator Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2009.05.21 23:53:00 - [450] Edited by: Captator on 21/05/2009 23:53:12 I would like longer jump range and fuel bay as a common ground fix. Personally for combat I would like to see the marauder 100% weapon damage bonus used to free up slots for EWAR as well, this would allow their use in other roles besides that which No Trademark is fond of. Something like (restoring HP stats to t1 levels, cpu and grid would have to be tweaked): Redeemer: 7/4/8, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 7.5% tracking Blackops bonuses: 7.5% optimal, 10% Nos/neut range Role bonus: 250% cloaked velocity, 100% large energy turret damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Rationale: The redeemer remains as currently the heavy hitter of the blackops arena, but now has the capability to be dropped as part of a group onto a hostile gang (A use I would love to see made a bit more likely than currently) and hold its own with a buffer tank like its predecessor the armageddon. It also has some ability to reach out and neutralise secondary threats with its cap warfare range bonus (though still inferior to the curse in this role). This ship can be brought in close, midrange and at sniping distance, and can be fit to survive in each. Widow: 6/8/5, 3 launchers, 75m3 dronebay, 75tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% siege/cruise ROF, 10% siege/cruise velocity Blackops bonuses: 30% ECM jammer strength, 5% shield resists Role bonus: 250% cloaked velocity, 100% cruise/siege damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Rationale: The widow can now as currently be fit with a large buffer tank and heavy damage, but you also have the option of actually fitting a tank with some jammers. It can operate at midrange with javelin torps or cruise, reaching out to 250km with a sniping fit while fielding a good buffer or some mild jamming, and it has enough lows to fit a damage mod with some SDAs, or vice versa. Again this would facilitate wider use than that which BE and No Trademark have been successful at. Panther: 6/7/6, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 5% damage Blackops bonuses: 10% falloff, 7.5% tracking Role bonus: 250% cloaked velocity, 100% large projectile damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Rationale: This makes the panther a real contender in the blackops arena, giving it punching power rivalling a maelstrom, and enough slots to fit either a credible armour tank with a lot of utility mids, or a strong shield tank with a full rack of damage and agility mods, damage loss due to falloff balances what could be seen as an excessive slot layout (others may disagree of course). This ship again is workable across nearly all ranges. Sin: 6/6/7, 3 turrets, 450m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 10% drone hitpoints/damage, +5km drone control range Blackops bonuses: 7.5% repair amount, 10% drone optimal and mwd speed Role bonus: 250% cloaked velocity, 100% large hybrid damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Rationale: This is the big brother of the ishtar, carrying the philosophy of very flexible drone loadout (works well as sentry sniper or with increased speed heavies), and strong tank with good utility midslots to the battleship class. This ship would survive under fire in a smaller engagement for a while (slightly better than a hyperion), but will still go down rapidly to more than one close range battleship. This prevents it being dropped thoughtlessly, while still facilitating the roles it is currently good at. TL;DR just look at the bolded bits

Ahz	Posted - 2009.05.22 01:36:00 - [451] Originally by: Captator Panther: 6/7/6, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth Role bonus: 250% cloaked velocity, 100% large projectile damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Why would you do this and not just use all 8 high slots? 6 guns negates the need for the 100% bonus. Frankly I'm happy with Black Ops damage the way it is. I'd prefer to see them in more of a logistics role anyway. More tank than gank.
Captator Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2009.05.22 13:49:00 - [452] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Captator Panther: 6/7/6, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth Role bonus: 250% cloaked velocity, 100% large projectile damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Why would you do this and not just use all 8 high slots? 6 guns negates the need for the 100% bonus. Frankly I'm happy with Black Ops damage the way it is. I'd prefer to see them in more of a logistics role anyway. More tank than gank. Several reasons: 1. You can't just give them a large number more slots over t1 (look at the way CCP does tech 2, they add maybe a slot, in the case of t2 BS they may even add none or take away one). 2. To have utility high slots; this way you can have 6 effective guns (+ bonuses), one utility high, cloak and portal gen. Likewise with Widow. In the case of redeemer, couple of cap warfare mods (following the bonuses, or otherwise if you prefer), for sin a couple of drone range mods with a sniper fit.
EliteSlave Minmatar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.22 13:57:00 - [453] I think this would be the best and prolly the easiest to do Jump into Cyno Jammed systems... Pos's / Players can target Blackops, but takes 500% longer to target Ability to attack Cyno Jammer, and when doing so, It does not Alert the sov holder of said attack. oh and jump fuel bay.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.22 15:24:00 - [454] Edited by: Rajere on 22/05/2009 15:25:14 Originally by: Captator Something like (restoring HP stats to t1 levels, cpu and grid would have to be tweaked): Originally by: Captator Stuff...free up slots for EWAR as well (except that there are no EWAR modules for highslots)... Emphasis mine Originally by: Captator ...allow their use in other roles besides that which No Trademark is fond of.... ...Again this would facilitate wider use than that which BE and No Trademark have been successful at... Basically, other than sniping at a few of the successful BO using corps, you want Black Ops to not only obsolete their T1 BS hulls, you also want them to simultaneously obsolete Marauders as well? Seriously, what would be the point of Marauders when Black Ops would be Marauders that also have Jump Drives, no Sensor Strength weakness, and are a few hundred million isk cheaper? I believe we've done this before, where you went through and listed out your opinions on what they should change. I'm just going to repost from another thread, here is how they are setup now (and what's wrong with some of them): All Black Ops receive the two Racial Battleship Skill bonuses of their true Parent Hull, ie: Redeemer = Armageddon with -1 Low, +1 Mid. -1 Turret Hardpoint. 10% energy turret cap use/lvl, 5% energy turret ROF/lvl Widow = Raven with -1 Low, +1 Mid, -1 High, +1 Mid. -1 Missile Hardpoint. 5% Cruise/Siege ROF/lvl, 10% cruise/torp Velocity/lvl Panther = Tempest with -1 Low, +1 Mid. -1 Turret hardpoint. 5% projectile ROF/lvl, 5% projectile dmg/lvl Sin = Dominix with -1 Low, +1 Mid, +1 High. -2 Turret Hardpoints. 5% hybrid turret dmg/lvl, 10% drone hp/dmg/lvl (Dominix has 1 less slot than the other BS, so the Sin gets an additional slot to balance it, but loses an extra Turret hardpoint in the process) All Black Ops received 2 Black Ops Skill Bonuses: Cloaked Velocity, +1 completely out of left field that makes no sense whatsoever, ie: Redeemer, Viziam (ie Zealot)= Tracking Bonus??? This should be 5% Damage Per level, or 10% Optimal per Level like all other Viziam ships. Widow, Kaalakiota (ie Crow, Nighthawk)= ECM Strength Bonus??? This should be 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage per level like all other Kaalakiota ships. *Sin, Creodron (ie Ishtar, Eos) = Agility Bonus??? This should be +Drone bay or Drone Control Range like all other Creodron ships. Panther, Thukker Mix (ie Vagabond)= Speed Bonus This one actually fits, though Thukker Mix is stupid for BS design, and the 3rd/4th bonus for Thukker is always 10% range (optimal or falloff) per level, or 5% damage per level, the first bonus is usually the speed bonus. However, as far as balance is concerned, you need to do more than just fix those mistakes. 1. The Panther needs to be changed to Boundless Creation (ie Sleipnir, Muninn, Wolf) and receive 5% dmg/lvl. 2. The Sin not only needs to be changed to Duvolle Labs (ie deimos, Astarte) but also reworked as a Megathron instead. It should have a 6L/5M/8H slot layout (based off standard BO slot adjustments for a Megathron hull, although really a 7L/4M/8H slot layout would be Ideal), 6 Turrets, 125m3 Drone Bay, and receive 5% Large Hybrid Turret Damage, 7.5% Large Hybrid Turret Tracking per Gallente BS Skill level bonus, then either 5% turret Damage or 10% turret Falloff per Black Ops skill level bonus just like all other Duvolle Labs ships. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Captator Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2009.05.22 22:16:00 - [455] Originally by: Rajere Originally by: Captator Something like (restoring HP stats to t1 levels, cpu and grid would have to be tweaked): Originally by: Captator Stuff...free up slots for EWAR as well (except that there are no EWAR modules for highslots) Here i meant nos/neut/smartbomb... Emphasis mine (replied in bold) Originally by: Captator ...allow their use in other roles besides that which No Trademark is fond of.... ...Again this would facilitate wider use than that which BE and No Trademark have been successful at... Basically, other than sniping at a few of the successful BO using corps, you want Black Ops to not only obsolete their T1 BS hulls, you also want them to simultaneously obsolete Marauders as well? Seriously, what would be the point of Marauders when Black Ops would be Marauders that also have Jump Drives, no Sensor Strength weakness, and are a few hundred million isk cheaper? No, I do not. I want blackops to be more than gankboats, for this to happen they have to have some field survivability in a small gang environment. I am quite prepared to accept that as laid out there they may be a bit OTT, but it was a sketch of the direction I think they need to go to see use in a slightly wider niche. Originally by: Rajere I believe we've done this before, where you went through and listed out your opinions on what they should change. I'm just going to repost from another thread, here is how they are setup now (and what's wrong with some of them): All Black Ops receive the two Racial Battleship Skill bonuses of their true Parent Hull... All Black Ops received 2 Black Ops Skill Bonuses: Cloaked Velocity, +1 completely out of left field that makes no sense whatsoever, ie: Redeemer, Viziam (ie Zealot)= Tracking Bonus??? This should be 5% Damage Per level, or 10% Optimal per Level like all other Viziam ships. Widow, Kaalakiota (ie Crow, Nighthawk)= ECM Strength Bonus??? This should be 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage per level like all other Kaalakiota ships. *Sin, Creodron (ie Ishtar, Eos) = Agility Bonus??? This should be +Drone bay or Drone Control Range like all other Creodron ships. Panther, Thukker Mix (ie Vagabond)= Speed Bonus This one actually fits, though Thukker Mix is stupid for BS design, and the 3rd/4th bonus for Thukker is always 10% range (optimal or falloff) per level, or 5% damage per level, the first bonus is usually the speed bonus. However, as far as balance is concerned, you need to do more than just fix those mistakes. 1. The Panther needs to be changed to Boundless Creation (ie Sleipnir, Muninn, Wolf) and receive 5% dmg/lvl. 2. The Sin not only needs to be changed to Duvolle Labs (ie deimos, Astarte) but also reworked as a Megathron instead. It should have a 6L/5M/8H slot layout (based off standard BO slot adjustments for a Megathron hull, although really a 7L/4M/8H slot layout would be Ideal), 6 Turrets, 125m3 Drone Bay, and receive 5% Large Hybrid Turret Damage, 7.5% Large Hybrid Turret Tracking per Gallente BS Skill level bonus, then either 5% turret Damage or 10% turret Falloff per Black Ops skill level bonus just like all other Duvolle Labs ships. Given that I doubt CCP will scrap the tier system, I tried to come up with a good role for the sin, and made the panther on par with the others (as these two are the weakest in my opinion) while giving the redeemer and widow a bit more flexibility. There is precedent for armageddon hull cap warfare (bhaalgorn) though, looking back on it, they are as you say a bit OTT. Perhaps they all need a low slot shaved off. If changes made along the lines I proposed were made, it would no longer be considered an insane waste of isk to portal/drop in a blackops and recon gang to attack a small camp, or act as surprise reenforcements. My issue with the changes you suggest is that they do not widen blackops scope at all. Jumping to stars would also be nice, but until the ships are broader, I don't think it is worth discussing.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.23 10:51:00 - [456] Edited by: Rajere on 23/05/2009 10:52:11 Originally by: Captator No, I do not. I want blackops to be more than gankboats, for this to happen they have to have some field survivability in a small gang environment. I am quite prepared to accept that as laid out there they may be a bit OTT, but it was a sketch of the direction I think they need to go to see use in a slightly wider niche. This is like saying you want interceptors to be more than just fast tacklers. You can use them for other things (for 1v1 dogfighting pvp, as a fast shuttle, etc), but that's their role, it's what they were designed to do. The only thing you suggested that actually increases their survivability was this: Originally by: Captator Something like (restoring HP stats to t1 levels, cpu and grid would have to be tweaked): BOs have 20% less shield/armor/structure of their T1 hulls. For a Redeemer, this works out to 1367 shields, 1661 armor, 1554 structure. BOs do have minor T2 racial resist bonuses +40%/+15% to their primary/secondary resists (for Amarr, they receive 40% bonus to Explosive, 15% bonus to Kinetic due to lolrp vs Minmatar), however they only have 2 rig slots vs 3 on t1 Battleships. Factoring in T2 Resists and missing a rig slot, it works out back at 20% EHP. Even if they restored the base stats, +20% EHP isn't enough to make them viable in situations they aren't viable in now. Oh and for the record, I don't think you realize what is/isn't viable: Quote: it would no longer be considered an insane waste of isk to portal/drop in a blackops and recon gang to attack a small camp, or act as surprise reenforcements. My issue with the changes you suggest is that they do not widen blackops scope at all. What makes you think this isn't viable now, or that people aren't doing this now? Surprise reinforcements, check. Hot drop gate camps every single day, check. You shouldn't rely on KBs for accurate battle reports, especially when gate campers burn out of their bubbles and align for station or deagress and jump through the gate the second 1 known cov cyno pilot simply enters local. When KBs show a BO gang ganking 1-2 ships more often than not it's "cov cyno pilot gtfo" panic and the only kills are what was tackled before they warped out, since if you don't lose anything only the ships you killed are going to show up, and usually you don't lose anything. (example where cyno died) My suggestions are solid and what needs to happen imo. They do not widen BOs scope but BO's scope doesn't need to be widened (besides, you were unaware of how wide their scope is currently). More importantly, your changes neither widen their scope or really improve the ships either. Sure, restoring their base hp is an improvement, and making them Marauders (which won't happen) so you can free up a highslot to move to a low would be nice, but the reasoning for doing so is flawed. You claim it's EWAR, yet you give none of them any ewar. Your bonuses and slot layouts are either useless or even sometimes detrimental to the ships/their role. You're increasing their tank but not really increasing their damage (indirectly, the extra low universally used for +1 dmg mod, giving them all ~6 weapons is good, until you start taking away damage bonuses to give them junk). In a way, your suggestions turns them all into sins/panthers, which is the opposite of what needs to happen. Marauder/weapon hardpoint tinkering aside, there's a reason why the Widow/Redeemer only has 1 Utility high + Cloak, while the sin/panther have 2 + Cloak. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.23 11:24:00 - [457] I seriously doubt that CCP would go with the Marauder weapons + role bonuses option, honestly it's way more work just juggling around the slots than what's necessary to balance these ships. However, if you were going make them marauders, and move the Cloaked Velocity bonus (needs to be 500-625% cloaked Velocity btw, not 250%) to a role bonus and give them 2 real bonuses for the BO's skill, then they should be as following: Redeemer: 6/5/8, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 7.5% tracking Blackops bonuses: 5% dmg, 5-10% optimal Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large energy turret damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno dropping the cap use bonus since they have 1/2 the turrets, same as you did. However I left an extra utility highslot instead of a 6th mid, since that would make the redeemer too good. This means the Redeemer can fit a CJB instead of the Panther. Optionally, 5 highs 6 mids, revert to 5% ROF/10% Cap use for BS bonuses, and 5% dmg/7.5% tracking or 5-10% optimal for BO bonuses. Tracking isn't really a Viziam quality Widow: 5/8/6, 3 launchers, 75m3 dronebay, 75tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% siege/cruise ROF, 10% siege/cruise velocity Blackops bonuses: % Kinetic missile dmg, 30% ECM jammer strength Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% cruise/siege damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno ECM bonus should really be something else for kaala, but 4 bonuses lets you keep this here for those who use this bonus Panther: 5/6/8, 3 turrets, 175m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 5% damage Blackops bonuses: 5% damage, 10% falloff Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large projectile damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno double dipping with the damage bonuses (not unheard of with Boundless Creation) but even with 6 effective turrets, large ACs need this to compete. Moved it's extra utility high to a low for more dmg mods Sin: 6/6/7, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% dmg, 7.5% tracking Blackops bonuses: 5% dmg, 10% falloff Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large hybrid damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Sin I made a Megathron, but left it's extra utility high as a CJB option rather than giving it an 8th low. 6 Effective turrets with 2 damage bonuses can compete just fine without an 8th low btw if you really want long range sniping to be an option, you'd need to consider that their base lock range is 20% less than their T1 equivalent's as well, and many of those t1 ships didn't have snipe favorable lock ranges to begin with. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Captator Yakuza Corp	Posted - 2009.05.23 15:43:00 - [458] Originally by: Rajere I seriously doubt that CCP would go with the Marauder weapons + role bonuses option, honestly it's way more work just juggling around the slots than what's necessary to balance these ships. However, if you were going make them marauders, and move the Cloaked Velocity bonus (needs to be 500-625% cloaked Velocity btw, not 250%) to a role bonus and give them 2 real bonuses for the BO's skill, then they should be as following: Redeemer: 6/5/8, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 7.5% tracking Blackops bonuses: 5% dmg, 5-10% optimal Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large energy turret damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno dropping the cap use bonus since they have 1/2 the turrets, same as you did. However I left an extra utility highslot instead of a 6th mid, since that would make the redeemer too good. This means the Redeemer can fit a CJB instead of the Panther. Optionally, 5 highs 6 mids, revert to 5% ROF/10% Cap use for BS bonuses, and 5% dmg/7.5% tracking or 5-10% optimal for BO bonuses. Tracking isn't really a Viziam quality Widow: 5/8/6, 3 launchers, 75m3 dronebay, 75tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% siege/cruise ROF, 10% siege/cruise velocity Blackops bonuses: % Kinetic missile dmg, 30% ECM jammer strength Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% cruise/siege damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno ECM bonus should really be something else for kaala, but 4 bonuses lets you keep this here for those who use this bonus Panther: 5/6/8, 3 turrets, 175m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 5% damage Blackops bonuses: 5% damage, 10% falloff Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large projectile damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno double dipping with the damage bonuses (not unheard of with Boundless Creation) but even with 6 effective turrets, large ACs need this to compete. Moved it's extra utility high to a low for more dmg mods Sin: 6/6/7, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% dmg, 7.5% tracking Blackops bonuses: 5% dmg, 10% falloff Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large hybrid damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Sin I made a Megathron, but left it's extra utility high as a CJB option rather than giving it an 8th low. 6 Effective turrets with 2 damage bonuses can compete just fine without an 8th low btw if you really want long range sniping to be an option, you'd need to consider that their base lock range is 20% less than their T1 equivalent's as well, and many of those t1 ships didn't have snipe favorable lock ranges to begin with. I accept your points above, as you say, it is hard to get a good picture of how these things are used from killboards, so I admit a lack of good data when making those pronouncements. That having been said, my versions all gained improved damage, the redeemer gained optimal and tracking, while the other 3 gained raw damage as well as increased hitrate for the panther. I added the cap warfare bonus for the redeemer, and retained the ECM bonus for the widow, but the problem I faced when wanting to give the sin and panther an ewar option is that due to the nature of their racial ewar, they would likely render their recons redundant. If this could be disregarded then I would give the Panther a small web range bonus (like the hyena) and a web effectiveness bonus per level (not as good as marauders, but upto perhaps 80% from a 60% web). I would give the sin a damp strength bonus (given you want to jump in and kill without losses this is logical). I didn't give the Redeemer as many mids as you, as I thought that would be OP and khanid-esque, not fitting with its armour and lasers. I gave the resist bonus for Widow to make a 3-4 slot tank possible, and the slot layout on the panther is more aimed at a shield tank, though sufficient lows that an armour tank could be mounted too. The Sin is the black sheep, and I think your idea is better here.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.23 16:37:00 - [459] Edited by: Rajere on 23/05/2009 16:40:24 And that's the problem (and reason) why you can't give them the Marauder bonus. You can only have 8 lows and only need 4 highs (3 for weapons, 1 for cloak). You leave an extra highslot for a Utility Mod (technically this slot is the place holder for the CJB but CJB is a useless mod on 99% of Black Ops. the Covert Cyno is a useless mod on 100% of Black Ops.) After that you've really got no choice other than throw the rest into Mids (or lows for the Widow). Basically the real issue is Black Ops have nothing to do with Recons, they're two totally unrelated ship classes. BOs shouldn't get any Ewar bonuses precisely because it infringes on the recons role. However, due to CCPs insistence that Tier 1 BS > Black Ops, Tier 2 BS > Marauders, you're stuck with a Caldari Black Ops which is loosely tied to the scorpion. When it comes to bonuses, slot layout, stats/etc, it's obvious that the actual design of the ship is based on the raven, thus a ship based on a raven obviously should fill the same role as the raven, DPS. It needs to be based on the raven, given the role of Black Ops is DPS. If CCP valued balance > consistency/in game lore/etc, then it would be quite easy to fix the ships. Change the background lore so that the Widow is based on the Raven, and that the Gallente noticed this so they also based their BO tech on their Megathron as to not allow the Caldari to one up them. The Domi becomes the parent of the Kronos (which would be a far better mission running Marauder than the Megathron Kronos). The Scorpion becomes the parent hull of the Golem, just add a little blurb in the show info text stating something like "the caldari engineers focused their Ewar expertise (with the help of the minmatar) on a more useful Ewar ability, Target Painters", and your done, you don't have to actually change anything about the Golem itself as it's fine as is. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Ahz	Posted - 2009.05.24 17:22:00 - [460] Originally by: Rajere ...CJB is a useless mod on 99% of Black Ops. This is what confuses me about the Black Ops. It looks like No Trademark has had some success using these ships as hot-droppable BS in small gang combat. If that's the case then good for you guys. I would never have considered these ships in a front line combat role given how their stats compare to their tier 1 counterparts. But the CJB should be central to the role that the ship plays. It's meant to move *other* ships around. This is the role that I think is interesting and the one that it seems to fail at. Originally by: Rajere ...Black Ops have nothing to do with Recons, they're two totally unrelated ship classes. Add to that the fact that the CJB only moves recon ships, stealth bombers and transport ships and the value of the CJB gets really confusing. Two of these ship classes warp cloaked! They are the exactly the ships that need the CJB least! Maybe you're right. Maybe the Black Ops is fine and it's the CJB that's borked. I also agree about the ability to fit a cove ops cyno on a BO. None of this really seems well thought through.

Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.05.24 19:31:00 - [461] Originally by: Ahz Originally by: Rajere ...CJB is a useless mod on 99% of Black Ops. This is what confuses me about the Black Ops. It looks like No Trademark has had some success using these ships as hot-droppable BS in small gang combat. If that's the case then good for you guys. I would never have considered these ships in a front line combat role given how their stats compare to their tier 1 counterparts. But the CJB should be central to the role that the ship plays. It's meant to move *other* ships around. This is the role that I think is interesting and the one that it seems to fail at. Then why is it a battleship hull? If black ops are supposed to be for moving stuff around, make them T2 industrials (with lots of cargo space for fuel) and make a proper combat T2 battleship to replace them. Quote: Originally by: Rajere ...Black Ops have nothing to do with Recons, they're two totally unrelated ship classes. Add to that the fact that the CJB only moves recon ships, stealth bombers and transport ships and the value of the CJB gets really confusing. Two of these ship classes warp cloaked! They are the exactly the ships that need the CJB least! The advantage of the jump bridge is the ability to instantly appear next to the target without any warning, warping cloaked is irrelevant here. -----------
Ahz	Posted - 2009.05.24 20:34:00 - [462] Originally by: Merin Ryskin ...why is it a battleship hull? Hell if I know. Originally by: Merin Ryskin The advantage of the jump bridge is the ability to instantly appear next to the target without any warning, warping cloaked is irrelevant here. I'm talking about his module. The Cover Jump Portal Generator: "A piece of machinery designed to allow a black ops vessel to create a bridge between systems without the use of a stargate, allowing its companions access through vast tracts of space to join it on the battlefield. Note: can only be fitted on Black Ops." Only the other ships that it's able to move around are exactly those ships that have the most mobility on their own. They fit the Covert Ops Cloak and can go just about anywhere without the BO. It doesn't make any sense to me.
ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.24 20:35:00 - [463] Originally by: Rajere ... BOs have 20% less shield/armor/structure of their T1 hulls. For a Redeemer, this works out to 1367 shields, 1661 armor, 1554 structure. BOs do have minor T2 racial resist bonuses +40%/+15% to their primary/secondary resists (for Amarr, they receive 40% bonus to Explosive, 15% bonus to Kinetic due to lolrp vs Minmatar), however they only have 2 rig slots vs 3 on t1 Battleships. ... Check again. It's 10% primary, 5% secondary added. Completely worthless, and doesn't make up for the lost hp at all. Need proper resists to make up for loss of tank slot, less bridge fuel use/and or fuel bay, and preferably a 3.5ly base jump range. (5ly would be perfect but i'm not holding my breath). Also need proper t2 bonuses, not agility or whatever useless bonuses. Covert ops cloak would be nice, but i can live without it. Preferably they'd have their HP restored and then a little to make up for one less rig slot. Panther needs large projectiles to stop sucking to be viable (and or +1 turret), and changing it to boundless for shield tank wouldn't hurt either. Speed alone isn't enough (let's not forget most minnie t2 is worked over because they need speed and one scrambler is enough to deny this. wtb racial scrambler immunity for t2). Or can just make panther into a torp boat with 5 launchers and a damage/range bonus. (epitome of the t2 phoon) Sin needs a proper t2 bonus and sentries to get a 150-200m/s mwd speed so you don't loose them while you stay aligned. Or just remake it in the image of a megathron gunboat. I dig the extra mid, but the missing low really hurts. Redeemer kicks arse already. Widow I can't comment on.
TimeKeeper Chronos	Posted - 2009.05.24 21:13:00 - [464] I'm not going to get into %s or roles but I've always seen Black ops as a powerful ship that is made to slip in, destroy a target(s) and get out before the enemy knows what has happened. Does this make it a ganker? In my opinion, yes, but only for the cruiser class and below that are stupid enough to wander off from the fleet. Against a normal BS it should stand a chance but need another ship to help it. Having said that I agree with this quote: Quote: Redeemer: 6/5/8, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 7.5% tracking Blackops bonuses: 5% dmg, 5-10% optimal Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large energy turret damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno dropping the cap use bonus since they have 1/2 the turrets, same as you did. However I left an extra utility highslot instead of a 6th mid, since that would make the redeemer too good. This means the Redeemer can fit a CJB instead of the Panther. Optionally, 5 highs 6 mids, revert to 5% ROF/10% Cap use for BS bonuses, and 5% dmg/7.5% tracking or 5-10% optimal for BO bonuses. Tracking isn't really a Viziam quality Widow: 5/8/6, 3 launchers, 75m3 dronebay, 75tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% siege/cruise ROF, 10% siege/cruise velocity Blackops bonuses: % Kinetic missile dmg, 30% ECM jammer strength Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% cruise/siege damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno ECM bonus should really be something else for kaala, but 4 bonuses lets you keep this here for those who use this bonus Panther: 5/6/8, 3 turrets, 175m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% ROF, 5% damage Blackops bonuses: 5% damage, 10% falloff Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large projectile damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno double dipping with the damage bonuses (not unheard of with Boundless Creation) but even with 6 effective turrets, large ACs need this to compete. Moved it's extra utility high to a low for more dmg mods Sin: 6/6/7, 3 turrets, 125m3 dronebay, 125tb bandwidth BS bonuses: 5% dmg, 7.5% tracking Blackops bonuses: 5% dmg, 10% falloff Role bonus: 500% cloaked velocity, 100% large hybrid damage, can fit covert jump portal and cyno Sin I made a Megathron, but left it's extra utility high as a CJB option rather than giving it an 8th low. 6 Effective turrets with 2 damage bonuses can compete just fine without an 8th low Something else which has been talked about is a covert ops cloak. I agree somewhat but I also do not agree. I believe black ops should warp while cloaked but not actually fit the covert ops cloak. Such a modification can be native to the black ops itself while using a normal cloaking device. If a covert ops cloak is to be used then something else must give and I believe that any cyno generator(normal of covert) must not be allowed to be fitted as such. Therefore a cov ops cloak and cyno can not be fitted on at the same time. You must choose Another thing in keeping with my first 2 paragraphs is scan resolution. It needs to be able to target things and silence them before the fleet can respond. I would say a base scan res of 160 would be good but it could be anything as long as it is not below 120. Another issue is of course how soft the ship itself is without proper resists and HP. Yeah it should be increased. this is a Tech 2 ship afterall. Did the ship magically become weaker when researching? I don't know but it needs to be more stout. Thats my piece. Love it hate it. but the ship in its present state seems only to be a cyno bridge and very little else. Certainly not an operative fighting behind enemy lines.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2009.05.25 00:34:00 - [465] Edited by: Rajere on 25/05/2009 00:36:10 Originally by: ZigZag Joe Originally by: Rajere ... BOs have 20% less shield/armor/structure of their T1 hulls. For a Redeemer, this works out to 1367 shields, 1661 armor, 1554 structure. BOs do have minor T2 racial resist bonuses +40%/+15% to their primary/secondary resists (for Amarr, they receive 40% bonus to Explosive, 15% bonus to Kinetic due to lolrp vs Minmatar), however they only have 2 rig slots vs 3 on t1 Battleships. ... Check again. It's 10% primary, 5% secondary added. Completely worthless, and doesn't make up for the lost hp at all. You're correct, I flaked out and was doing the resists calculation wrong. +3.8% is 15% of 25, +8% is 40% of 20%, when resists are actually expressed as the amount they reduce damage from the remaining incoming damage, ie 25% + 5% = 28.8%, 20% +10% = 28%. I know that, not sure why I flaked there with the explanation, but it is as i said a minor t2 racial resist bonus. The opinions expressed in my posts do represent my corp -------------------------- NOTR
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2009.05.25 07:25:00 - [466] Originally by: Fenix Zealot Is there a plan to allow them to use the covert ops cloaking device. It has been argued that due to the price of the ships, and their limited role offensively, as well as their vulnerability defensively, they should be allowed that feature. ~Fenix u make these things too powerful as solo-pownmobiling then they'll be the new FOTM. keep in mind its meant to have a role. and thats being a tatical ship that can jump fleets around. for example.. you dont hear none of us complaining how badly a claymore is at front line short range combat. it has its role, and still is getting buffed, be happy with that. otherwise you wont see any stealthbombers around.. only black ops _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected])
syncrom The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.05.26 12:59:00 - [467] Edited by: syncrom on 26/05/2009 13:01:10 May be give them ability to use 1-2 Warfare Links while cloaked (reduce effectiveness bonus to +1% per BO lvl) also increased jump range, lowered fuel costs for jumping/bridging ---------
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.05.26 18:14:00 - [468] I think by far the most important upgrade the black ops class needs is the use of the cov ops cloak. The essence of what the ship is supposed to be requires that cov ops cloak. Any way to carry more fuel would be appreciated. Whether its a bonus to use less fuel, a larger cargohold, or the creation of a fuel bay. But other than a cov ops cloak, the best idea I've heard is the creation of an anchorable structure to bypass cyno jammers. An item that only black ops can deploy, would take 2-4 minutes to anchor around a moon, and when filled with fuel will emit a cyno that can allow any jump capable ship to lock on and jump into a jammed system. Then black ops would be relevant. Of course, this structure would appear on everyone's overview once it is deployed and you can warp to it. This gives at least a 2-4 minute window to destroy it and prevent the invading forces from entering. Imagine: A black ops jumps into a jammed system with acov ops fleet. They warp cloaked to a vacant moon. The black ops decloaks, deploys the new cyno structure and starts to anchor it. 2 minutes before it anchors, the defending forces warp to it, and the cov ops fleet must defend it until it onlines. If defended, it turns on, and then your fleet of cap ships can jump into the jammed system. Adds a whole new dimension to defending your territory.
Rukia KuchikiSan	Posted - 2009.05.26 18:43:00 - [469] Originally by: CCP Chronotis In particular we wanted to add a fuel bay at least [...] The functionality which allows us to add special cargobays to ships (such as a fuel bay, ore hold, fighter bay and so on). That functionality is not ready yet so a black ops fuel bay sits very high on our wishlist still. Why don't give them a BIG cargobay in the meanwhile, then?
abrasive soap Balls Deep Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.26 21:26:00 - [470] These need to be able to use cov ops cloaks.

wicked cheese Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.26 22:26:00 - [471] covert ops cloak. able to attack targets that are inside a POS shield.
Potrero Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.26 23:10:00 - [472] Originally by: abrasive soap These need to be able to use cov ops cloaks. Plus they should be able to lock and fire while cloaked. Also the pilots should not show show up in local while cloaked.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.26 23:42:00 - [473] Originally by: Potrero Originally by: abrasive soap These need to be able to use cov ops cloaks. Plus they should be able to lock and fire while cloaked. Also the pilots should not show show up in local while cloaked. :troll: ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Potrero Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 02:42:00 - [474] Originally by: Blane Xero :troll: Really?
Alex Raptos Caldari Phoenix Rising.	Posted - 2009.05.27 02:49:00 - [475] Originally by: Potrero Originally by: Blane Xero :troll: Really? :effort:
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.05.27 11:59:00 - [476] This is no more constructive ... Well I said a lot and wrote a lot, all I want to say now is: WTS: Widow
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.05.27 12:22:00 - [477] Originally by: Killerhound This is no more constructive ... Well I said a lot and wrote a lot, all I want to say now is: WTS: Widow Hit me up with contract. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:44:00 - [478] It has sit enough in my station , it was fun watching an expensive and useless luxury ship for a while but no more. WTS : Widow + My Blackops skills
Ahz	Posted - 2009.05.27 19:16:00 - [479] Originally by: Overbrain WTS : Widow 500 mil standing offer to any and all who want to sell their BO. Please bring to Khanid region and create contract.
Alex Raptos Caldari Phoenix Rising.	Posted - 2009.05.27 20:01:00 - [480] Originally by: Overbrain It has sit enough in my station , it was fun watching an expensive and useless luxury ship for a while but no more. WTS : Widow + My Blackops skills Will offer 500m, 550 depending on rigs/fit. __________________

Intangible Mirage	Posted - 2009.05.29 12:30:00 - [481] Is it just me or did they decrease the Widow's scan res back to 99 in the last patch? It was 115 after the Stealth bomber patch. Why the backslide?
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.05.30 11:10:00 - [482] I sold mine for 650Mio. I suggest you guys do the same, especially since the fuel bay will take much longer to realize, if ever. Feeling a bit disapointed about the widow, farewell little ship.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.05.31 07:08:00 - [483] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 31/05/2009 07:08:47 Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 31/05/2009 07:08:03 Traded mine for an archon. It's really unfortunate but everytime I think I have useful fit for a blackops, I realise I forgot to add the cloak and there I go off to the cpu wall again. Black Ops may see more use in bomber wing tactics (PL bombing BS fleets seigeing towers), but they are entirely useless outside a logistics role at this point. I realise this is a bit of a reversal of my previous stance, but it took some time, and many hours of EFT, to really see how completely gimped they are. I still don't think a COC would fix the problem. As things stands the only hope for these ships to be anything other than bomber bridges (maybe thats all they were supposed to be?) is a complete redesign. edit: can't spell
bloody johnroberts Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.31 11:37:00 - [484] i agree at this moment they have 1 role bridging and nothing else its a shame but its true even extra cargo bays will not make this any better :(( i know how much fun these could be but at this time they are logistic only and will stay that way as they have no teeth and the cost prohibits there use on the battle field.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.31 12:34:00 - [485] another dead promises topic 60D GTC - shattared link
Ahz	Posted - 2009.05.31 19:07:00 - [486] Originally by: bloody johnroberts i agree at this moment they have 1 role bridging and nothing else its a shame but its true even extra cargo bays will not make this any better :(( I sure hope you guys continue to think this way. These ships aren't going to get much better for a reason.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.06.01 17:59:00 - [487] Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 01/06/2009 18:00:11 Originally by: Ahz Originally by: bloody johnroberts i agree at this moment they have 1 role bridging and nothing else its a shame but its true even extra cargo bays will not make this any better :(( I sure hope you guys continue to think this way. These ships aren't going to get much better for a reason. You are correct... Full redesigns take too much time. Because everything they do can be done better by another ship class. Titans bridge better and farther and they are incredibly common these days. T1 BS easily out fight the Black Ops. And Recons do the cloaking thing better. Tbh, I think my Pilgrim could kill almost any Black Ops, barring maybe the Widow. The only stand out ability the Black Ops has is the ability to bypass cyno jammers. Other than that they are completely worthless, unless your a masochist (which I am at times) who just likes trying to fly something broken to prove that your awesome. The real question at this point is did CCP intend these ships to be logistics only? If thats the case give them a fuel bay and call it done. Those of use who want to fight in them are just trying make a VW van preform like a ferrari.
Bylator	Posted - 2009.06.01 18:51:00 - [488] Hi, firstly may I agree with the general concensus of enabling a BO to use cov ops cloak, and having an increased jump cargo capacity (however this is going to be done.. but quickly). Next may I put a couple of quirky ideas out there. 1. Enable the BO to yes have increased range to jump people but how about also enabling it to use some kind of beacon that it can deploy at the current jump range so it can work solo for a shorter distance? It would be able to deploy to a moon say, so anyone may be able to scan for it giving the BO pilot a fighting chance to jump there before its found and also making it possible to find after a few mins so it cant hang there forever. 2 Secondly, how about addressing someones point i saw earlier of stealth and cov ops flying into each other. Let the BO take command of a squad by enabling a 'Formation flight'. In a 'wing'; 'v'; 'box' or other formation the BO pilot becomes the lead flier and can physically direct his team so they fly formed and even into warp until the time that he directs the strike?? Sound like anything that could be effective. Lastly, this doesnt take away any of the enjoyment i have from flying cov ops, as it is still very useful for surveillance, directing jump points and generally being less of a price ticket of a loss if found out than flying a 800m isk widow.
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.06.02 09:45:00 - [489] We come again always to the same point, give COC to BO's, give them more jump range, adjust ressistance or give them some sort of cloaking command ship role. But that again would mean a lot of work for the programmer, as of the day cloaking and activating command modules isn't possible. Again, bye bye sweet ship , welcome new Thanatos.
John Zorg Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.06.02 23:34:00 - [490] I just finished training for Blackops, Covert Jump Portal Generator and JDC V. 1. This ship can hardly jump from 1 system to the next. 4.5ly is way to short even with Calibration V :\ 2. I cannot open a Covert Jump portal to a Cyno Generator array???? I thought the restriction was on the ships it could pass through, is this also one? 3. 22+ days for Cyno Theory V This really should be lower. It's great for small specialized gangs, but it would forsure be used a lot more if that was Cyno Theory IV. Maybe add a small Corporate Hanger Array as a Fuel bay? Correct me if I am wrong but it seems the devs do have a way of restricting containers. Look at tower for example, I can add Nitrogen Isotopes to a Caldari Tower but I cannot add Helium? Otherwise I like it. Good ship, nice look and well worth using.

Ahz	Posted - 2009.06.03 07:52:00 - [491] Originally by: John Zorg It would forsure be used a lot more if that was Cyno Theory IV. I'm pretty sure that's the whole idea around requiring cyno V. Personally I kind of like them rare. It rewards those willing to put in the time.
ZigZag Joe Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:19:00 - [492] They need their scan res fixed, something in the last patch broke it. I'm 40mm lower than I should be on my sin. Also, it would be nice to be able to bridge to cyno generators (POS), in addition to changes mentioned earlier. It's pretty obvious the bridge mod is supposed to be activated so you can do so (it uses cap, but cap is never used...), but someone at ccp decided to do an ugly hack and make it passive. Fix plz.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.06.14 00:12:00 - [493] Confirming that the scan resolution took a dump in the last patch. So, CCP, any thoughts of fixing it? Or will it be a unintended feature that happend during a patch cycle, and while the time goes, it slides into the line of "working as intended".....
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.06.14 02:16:00 - [494] Forget it guys. Black Ops suck. And it is intended to be so. ;)
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.14 12:02:00 - [495] Originally by: TZeer Confirming that the scan resolution took a dump in the last patch. So, CCP, any thoughts of fixing it? Or will it be a unintended feature that happend during a patch cycle, and while the time goes, it slides into the line of "working as intended"..... This would be very interesting to hear an official response to.
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.06.16 09:38:00 - [496] I do not believe in any response from CCP. Some 2 days now no DEV posted on any thread that was crucial or had to do with fixing stuff ingame. They actually missing the content for next big expansion. I am again very curious only a few dev-member are really writing here in forums about problems that a lot of player have... Well give it up, there is no role/feature/stat that this ship has that would be needed: Bomber have covert cloaking, so flying on there own is better T3 has covert, bigger damage, not affected by bubble, will cost less The jump drive is crap, no range Fuel demand is crap, much too high T3 and many other T2 ships can tank much better The ship is far too expensive, especially with those t2 prices No one with the gift of a clear mind, would fly this ship. You get the ship and equipment for around 0.8B which is quite close to a T3 ship. No one attacks with a bunch of Bombers a cyno jammer if it takes already a whole fleet and an hour of time to take it down. The players in bombers could use all BS and then attack, much more efficient. No one is interested in jamming with a cloaker ship if jamming got nerfed and ECM Drones will get nerfed. And the list goes on... I am an optimistic person, but I sold my Widow. I'd suggest you guys do the same.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Endemic Aggression Exalted.	Posted - 2009.06.16 11:43:00 - [497] Black Ops were almost coming to be fine at start but then people had to start asking to make them some kind of 0.0 alliance logistics ships. Pretty useless imho. For me blackops always were either 0.0 solo/small gang ships. In my opinion old problems still remain after all these "upgrades": - Scan resolution - Jump drive system. It's too much bother to make cynos with that short jump range. Jump range would be just fine if there was no need for cyno or cynoing would be somehow easier (less fuel, less ozone etc) Also fuel costs for both covert cyno and jump drive are horribly draining. Not to mention cynoing ship cannot cloak/move when cyno is active. - Terrible price. In my opinion blackops are very agressive pvp ships in nature so you'll lose them a lot if you actually use them. 500-1000mil for one ship is too much. Anyhow don't see that happening they're probably going to be just logistics *****es.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.17 05:12:00 - [498] Quote: We come again always to the same point, give COC to BO's wait, I thought they were going to give BO covert cloaks.. what a waste of time if they don't.
Ishihiro tanaka Amarr Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.18 15:55:00 - [499] We can only hope that they revisit the BO ships once more. Flying a redeemer and trying to keep up with the SB's is hard enough. Having to bring 2 fully loaded cloakie haulers with us just to be able to bridge a few systems makes BO ops very, very hard to plan and execute, not to mention the sincere boredom for the unlucky cloakie hauler pilot who sits in the system waiting for the other to return and than fuel the BO which sends the ships back. On top of the, the SB's are quite adapt at getting themselves home with their warp cloaked ability. I can safely say I haven't seen much action, -'m too slow for the roaming gang work, nearly got shot when coming out of warp at a gate. Perhaps I'm using it totally wrong, but for now it's nothing more than a logistic vessel which can repair and rearm the SB's it is supporting.
EvenDirtier	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:49:00 - [500] Hah, It cant even do that, with 550 m3(widow) of hold space, it can barely hold its own ammo and jump fuel. In reality CCP NEEDS to rethink the ships whole purpose. Increased Jump Range would help them alot, along with a COC. but not only that they need more tank. frankly i can get an SB for 15-20 mil, itll have a COC, be able to tank better than the BO, and have close to its firepower. 600m? wat a joke. It isnt worth more than 100.

van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.20 16:45:00 - [501] The BO will get a dedicated fuel bay eventually. How about letting the BO-skill affect the volume of that bay, just as the racial industrial-skill affects the cargo capacity of industrials? Also, why not let the BO-skill affect jump range in addition to the current Jump Drive Calibration, so if you have good skills in both you will get that extra range.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.06.21 23:19:00 - [502] I wish BO was a covert gank ship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.06.22 11:34:00 - [503] CCP Doesn't want to make it a solopwnmobile, but at the same time there is no way to buff it to justify the cost of a Tech Two battleship without doing that. It needs at least 8 ly Max Range. It needs to be able to jump a decent sized gang those 8ly (10-20 people). It needs to tank OR gank better than a T1 Battleship. Right now they buffer tank like crap and Active tanking 9/10 times you hit a CPU wall. It needs some form of being able to approach a target location/prey without them knowing it is there even 30 seconds + before it is in danger zone. (No, jumping ontop of the target is neither acceptable nor functional, there is simply too much "happening" when you jump to be able to lock down a target straight away. If you run a tackeler with your covops, well, you might aswell have had a recon gang go too, you would have had your target, needed less people for it, and 3 more recons > 1 blackops cost wise, and effectiveness wise. CCP just cannot find a way to safely justify the cost without people like me taking it to go hunting on their own/with an alt, but i say to that - People who can afford it and have trained the skills to use it deserve a ship that doesn't make a Tech 1 Battleship laugh at it in its face. ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.06.22 11:57:00 - [504] And bring back the old covert cyno effect.

Tassill Minmatar Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.06.23 05:54:00 - [505] I like the BO ship but it does need a few tweeks still. All ready mentioned is increased jump range and I think this is one of the more important ones. It is often quite hard to find an empty system close enough to your target system at the moment and there is no point in this ship if your fleet gets scouted. Fitting is a bit of an issue at the moment but i dont mind that these have to be almost compleatley faction fitted. However since they do i think the survivability of them should be increased (ie more tank). The scan res suck on them, even with a faction sensor booster with scan res script fitted it is hard to lock your target before your sbers pop it. Cyno ship survivability - using a recon ship as your cyno ship it is quite hard to hot drop any deacent sized fleet successfully. using any of the other ships that can fit a cov cyno it is impossiable. It would be nice imo if logistics ships could jump through a bo bridge. Perhaps there is an oportunity here for ccp to introduced a less powerfull covert logistics ship to the game. Alternatly (might be overpowered) let heavy interdictors fit a covert cyno they are the kind of ship you want popping the cyno imo. Tackling - At the moment recons use a ton of fule (relitive to the cargo hold size of a bo) to bridge through but you need them in your fleet to tackle if you want to kill anything (sbers and cov ops are pretty usless tacklers in my experiance). Alternatley it would be nice to get dictors or hictors involved some how (see above).
Indigosia Caldari Age of Honour Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.23 14:41:00 - [506] well, i use my sin to gatecamp in 0.0..... Decloak - Drop sentries - kill - scoop - cloak.. Or if a fleet comes in, i'll jump to a nearby cyno gen. =) But, let them use cov op cloak, better cargo hold, better range on the frikin jump drive... jump drive cal 4 = 4ly... its ****. A bs with jump drive should be able to go further than a capital imo. and, give them t2 resists...
Mike C Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.06.23 14:49:00 - [507] The range is much too short, however its a very strategic ship to use effectively. What would be nice is if the Black Ops skill also increased range / decreased fuel use, but only if you have jump cal / jump fuel to 5 respectively. Just my thoughts. __________________________________________________ Originally by: Mike C Trolls - We keep Humanity alive... and kicking...
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.06.24 11:33:00 - [508] They gave blackops increased sensor strength but now its back to its normal value . And its not being fixed or even talked about enough , is it a proof that nobody actualy uses these ships except bridging with no need to target anything ? I dont see any dev replies to this thread . Does it always have to take months for you devs to fix simple things .
LordInvisible Gallente GK inc.	Posted - 2009.06.25 16:40:00 - [509] well, CCP needed some ship to add in expansion and they hired somekind of student to give them quick design.. this is product: - useless ship - overpriced ship - ugly ship - useless ship -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We are recruting: Recruitment
Nikuno	Posted - 2009.06.26 14:01:00 - [510] It is disconcerting that CCP recognised there was a problem, put in some work to begin correction of the problem, then ended up rolling back the correction to scan res along with the massive mistake they made with the cloak/instawarp issue (which I did warn them about in good time) and have so far not given us a single indication of when this correction to scan res will be reinstated. Without asking for anything else for Black Ops at this time, would it really cripple CCP's productivity to tell us this one simple thing?

DirtyDirty88 Stone Shadow Syndicate Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.29 20:20:00 - [511] OK so, you guys have time to worry about a damn drone certificate being changed to drones 4... but cant help out black ops at all?
Ishihiro tanaka Amarr Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.07.03 06:42:00 - [512] With the proposed changes, adding a fuel bay to the BO ships, let's hope they make it big enough to jump a decent size fleet with SB's and recons through without having to resort to using 2 blockade runners filled with LO. Imo jumping the ship itself doesn't take all that much racial iso's but that's just me.. .. ... .... .. .... .. .-. --- - .- -. .- -.- .- A bullet, Laser beam or Plasma charge may have your name on it..... A Smartbomb or Shrapnel is adressed "To whom it may concern"...
DirtyDirty88 Stone Shadow Syndicate Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.04 06:13:00 - [513] Ok, the fuel bay on black ops change for 1.5 is a very good start. Thanks CCP.
Lilla Kharn Amarr	Posted - 2009.07.04 09:02:00 - [514] Just wanted to post and say thanks to CCP for giving us a fuel bay on the black ops. I'm glad it's getting it and it will give me a chance to use it quite a bit more ============================================= "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
achoura	Posted - 2009.07.04 09:32:00 - [515] Idk why ppl are applauding. It need to big enough to jump multiple ships, plus itself two ways which, given that it can only do 2/3 ships one way currently, is going to leave sceptics. That plus the stealth nerf to scan res last patch, near impossible fittings, poor tii resists, less base armour than the t1 versions, poor range that effectively prevents it crossing from empire to 0.0, the fact that it can only jump ships to covert cynos rather than both types (or beacons) and all in a ship double to cost of a carrier. Don't be surprised if people don't wait with baited breath. Or at least it would cost double (and archon for those that don't know, cost roughly 400m to loose) if redeemer could be tii fit rather than requiring faction fittings just for cpu. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Nova Soldier Caldari ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.07.04 11:06:00 - [516] Originally by: Killerhound Edited by: Killerhound on 04/05/2009 06:37:06 Guys cool down me being happy that they look at it after a year of complaining. Just for the lazzy ones again a little "essay" about the possible changes: Make Covert Ops Cloaking Device usable on BO's Ah the omgwtf cloak,the only thing i have to say about this is put it on the test server for ppl to test it and see what outhers think about it!! Give them true T2 Resistance a 5% bonus / lvl of black ops has to be more than sufficient, it is a t2 1 bill isk ship it has to diferentiate it self from a t1 50 mil isk ships Give them an even greater fuel reduction Agree, like the recon ships have a great reduction in liquid ozone for normal cyno,compared to outher ships, it should be a reasonable ideea to reduce the amount of fuel for the Black ops Give them a dedicated Fuel bay Heard it's going to be taking care of not only for the black ops but for outher ships also Modify their offensive power (some say more, some less) The dps is balanced however like someone put it out earlier in the thread a bonus of 100% to dmg and reduce 1/2 of the turrets slots would be more than perfect giving the same dmg and the extra high slot to fit a cloaking device/cyno/portal Give them more jump Range (my personal favorit) Agree but not to much 1 Ly max 2Ly should be sufficient, just under a titan jump range 7.875 lightyears (Ship: Leviathan and JumpDriveCalibration: Level 5) 4.5 lightyears (Ship: Sin and JumpDriveCalibration: Level 5)
Overbrain	Posted - 2009.07.05 12:33:00 - [517] Players have proven that they are capable of waiting for years until something is fixed , even after months of steady complaints. So why should this pose a problem to ccp ?
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.07.05 16:59:00 - [518] Originally by: achoura That plus the stealth nerf to scan res last patch Redeemer scan res in QR: 132. Redeemer scan res in Apoc 1.3: 145. You are aware that higher scan res is better? -- Gradient forum
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.05 18:52:00 - [519] Edited by: van Uber on 05/07/2009 18:52:52 Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: achoura That plus the stealth nerf to scan res last patch Redeemer scan res in QR: 132. Redeemer scan res in Apoc 1.3: 145. You are aware that higher scan res is better? I think what many is referring to is that the Widow got overbuffed by mistake in one of the Apocrypha patches, and CCP brought it in line (or stealth nerfed it) to be in line with the other BOs. All Black Ops now have about 33% higher scanres than their T1 counterpart. Whether this is how it should be is another issue...
gasric	Posted - 2009.07.20 20:16:00 - [520] Originally by: Captain Vampire Cloak for these ships, covops or not, is next to useless with the instant local in 0.0. I assume the design role of black ops ships are to enter hostile space undetected and bring firepower/ewar capabilities to a greater extent than their cruiser counterparts. The concept is awesome and very interesting, but it is pretty much impossible to achieve this per se due to local. Improving the ships with a fuel bay and the ability to jump to cynojammed systems will improve the "fun/buck" ratio, but the black ops ships (and their cruiser counterparts in lesser extent) will not really fill their designated role until delayed local is introduced in 0.0. Definitely support the idea of delayed local in 0.0 systems. Not only would it help with the role of Black Ops and all Cov Ops ship it would make all null sec operations alot more eventful. However since this is probably not going to happen any time soon at all I think at the very least we should throw the Black Ops a bone with Cov Ops claok capabilities.

Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.07.20 20:28:00 - [521] Right i'm sitting here looking at the black ops bays and i like what i see but tbh i think the numbers are a little off, with a 1k bay i can fit 6666 isotopes in the bay which isn't too bad really but when you're talking 1440 used by the black ops itself for a 4ly round trip you're losing a fair chunk and portalling anything else around will decimate that fuel supply. Now i'm thinking a minimum of a 2k bay to make it an effective ship because while you might have multiple BO's in a fleet you need to be looking at the fact that you might only have one, for example i only know 2 BO pilots in my alliance, 3k wouldn't be too much either when you think that to portal common recons around would take 1600+ isotopes for an 8ly round trip 4 there and 4 back unless you want to walk back which would mean you would need multiple BO's just to start thinking about any decent sized groups, for throwing cov ops and bombers around its a fair'ish number but i think its still too small, so i think that either an increase in fuel bay size to the 2-3k region or a small increase along with changing a bonus for a portal fuel use bonus on the ship both do the same sort of thing with the later making sure the ship isn't just used as a fuel transporter. Also not sure if its technically possible but is there a way to make the fuel bays only accept a certain racial fuel because at present i could move fuel for other BO's in my bay meaning i could make up slack for a weaker skilled pilot which is a role better suited to the blockade runners now that they can use the BO portal. Just my 2isk though but i think the above could work without making the BO too overpowered.
Securitas Protector Star Frontiers Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.07.21 18:52:00 - [522] ED/IRC Black ops would very much approve of more fuel room, less fuel use, and more range. Thanks, Sec Proud to be shaych
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.07.21 21:10:00 - [523] One major issue I have with BlackOps is that they're forced to fit improved cloaks (vs. CovOps cloaks) and they are still forced to endure the scan res penalty that comes with fitting a cloak other than a CovOps cloak. Their scan res is already bad enough as it is. They don't need this extra penalty. Get rid of it at a minimum, if not allowing them to use CovOps cloaks. -murder one [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.07.21 22:11:00 - [524] Originally by: murder one One major issue I have with BlackOps is that they're forced to fit improved cloaks (vs. CovOps cloaks) and they are still forced to endure the scan res penalty that comes with fitting a cloak other than a CovOps cloak. Their scan res is already bad enough as it is. They don't need this extra penalty. Get rid of it at a minimum, if not allowing them to use CovOps cloaks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.07.22 03:53:00 - [525] Originally by: van Uber Edited by: van Uber on 05/07/2009 18:52:52 Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: achoura That plus the stealth nerf to scan res last patch Redeemer scan res in QR: 132. Redeemer scan res in Apoc 1.3: 145. You are aware that higher scan res is better? I think what many is referring to is that the Widow got overbuffed by mistake in one of the Apocrypha patches, and CCP brought it in line (or stealth nerfed it) to be in line with the other BOs. All Black Ops now have about 33% higher scanres than their T1 counterpart. Whether this is how it should be is another issue... No, all black ops got a buff during their boost, and all black ops got it nerfed again without any notes in the patch notes. Widow: 90mm to 115mm during the black ops boost. Reduced to 99mm. Redeemer: 132mm to 170mm during the black ops boost. Reduced to 145mm. Didnt bother checking the others. And I have bug reported it, and I actually got a positive reply. It`s listed as a defect. An hopefully it will be fixed in this patch.
Ormuz	Posted - 2009.08.01 03:51:00 - [526] 1. mirror the stats (minus the missile bonuses) of the rattlesnake and apply it to the black ops (in this case widow) in doing this .. dont add default shield bonuses, just keep the current bonuses of the widow on a rattlesnake chassis. (this seems radical but some survivabilty would be nice) 2. the use of covert ops cloak, honestly it just seems dumb and totaly non logical that you cant use one on a black ops ship. (who's great idea was that ?) 3. bump up the scan rez (something like a BC etc 200'ish as a default) again .. its a black ops ship not a normal throw away t2 pvp ship 99 scan rez as default just sucks, sure its a BS, but again its a black ops ship not a standard BS ... you train long enough to have something decent (200'ish days ? in some cases for a ship that doesnt even come even keel to the scorpion.. lol)... just to add, by making these kinds of changes i'd probably leave everything else, the jump distance is cool, the new fuel bay is also cool .. it would almost validate the extreme training time for this specialized ship not to mention the COST .. and can we please remember that this ship isnt always used by groups or fleets ... it also provides a platform for the solo'ist black op's pilot. or dont we care to much for the solo player anymore ? people will probably scream at even the thought of these suggestions shrugs i dont much care, least it will stir up some new ideas ;) thats my 2 bob's worth Muz
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.03 03:33:00 - [527] Hello there. Black Ops still suck @ PVP. Good bye. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.08.06 08:59:00 - [528] Originally by: rgreat Hello there. Black Ops still suck @ PVP. Good bye. very constructive, goons suck aswell btw www.garia.net
Clock Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.06 09:26:00 - [529] Edited by: Clock on 06/08/2009 09:27:40 Originally by: Ormuz 2. the use of covert ops cloak, honestly it just seems dumb and totaly non logical that you cant use one on a black ops ship. (who's great idea was that ?) agree'd, can we please get someone with half a brain to read this and act on it, a black ops ship that cant warp cloaked is just another ship with a cloak on it, 1000m3 fuelbay and 115 boost to the scan rez is all great, but the ship needs the ability to warp cloaked ... ITS A BLACK OPS SHIP .. please listen to us .. btw can we get someone to update player data on the sisi server please, how are we supposed to test changes if the player stats are a month or so outta date?
Ishihiro tanaka Amarr Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.08.06 11:11:00 - [530] The changes to the black ops are useful, the fuel-bay seems to have enough capacity to allow a decent fleet to jump a couple of lightyears. It still doesn't free a BO team to use a blockade runner with extra fuel. On the topic of the covert ops cloaking device, this really needs to be adressed, the Black Ops ships are the epitomy of the cloaking ships and, as a side thing, rather expensive. it strikes us as, to say the least, weird that a hauler, frigate and cruise are capable of fitting a covert ops cloaking device where the top-of-the-line can't. What is the major drawback or game-breaking thing that upsets the balance so much when a BO ship is capable of covert warping? .. ... .... .. .... .. .-. --- - .- -. .- -.- .- A bullet, Laser beam or Plasma charge may have your name on it..... A Smartbomb or Shrapnel is adressed "To whom it may concern"...

Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.08.06 19:29:00 - [531] Originally by: Ishihiro tanaka The changes to the black ops are useful, the fuel-bay seems to have enough capacity to allow a decent fleet to jump a couple of lightyears. It still doesn't free a BO team to use a blockade runner with extra fuel. Define decent sized fleet, if you mean a fleet of bombers then yes it can however portaling anything bigger than a frig actually costs more than the BO jumping the same distance so it doesn't really have the space to do any real decent gangs there and back without a blockade runner, TBH i still think the solution to this is to make it so the BO skill reduces the fuel use on the portal but not the ship although given the math it might not be as simple to do as it looks although i'm sure you guys could find a way to just take xx% off of the figure created by the current fuel calcs
Ishihiro tanaka Amarr Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.08.07 08:40:00 - [532] Don't get me wrong, a decent size fleet of, say 8 SB's can be portalled 2LY away, no problems. If you want to portal recons and blockade runners 4LY away, you're basically screwed without said blockade runner feeding you the LO. The current fuel bay IS an improvement, what remains to be discussed with regards to this IMO is if the fuel consumption can be lowered to such an extent that portalling a fleet of 10 SB's, 2 or 3 recons and a blockade runner over 4.5LY (max range of BO). If CCP were to link the fuel usage to a skill, would that help? E.g. meaning that a low skilled pilot cannot portal above mentioned fleet to its max range while a good skilled pilot should be able to? .. ... .... .. .... .. .-. --- - .- -. .- -.- .- A bullet, Laser beam or Plasma charge may have your name on it..... A Smartbomb or Shrapnel is adressed "To whom it may concern"...
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.08.07 10:52:00 - [533] Originally by: Ishihiro tanaka If CCP were to link the fuel usage to a skill, would that help? E.g. meaning that a low skilled pilot cannot portal above mentioned fleet to its max range while a good skilled pilot should be able to? Its already linked to a skill because it uses the base fuel cost of the BO to work out how much it costs to portal stuff so a lower skilled pilot definately can't afford to be portaling stuff without atleast 1 blockade runner. you can find the fuel costs here
Waga Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.08.07 18:45:00 - [534] A: Requires fuel for Recon jump at Covert Jump Bridge . less B: T3 cruiser fitted with Cov Ops Sub, should be able to join the blackops/cov ops covert JB category. C: make em even more agile . speed is fine, but even with good skills its still superslow turning as normal bs. ..and true, they are weak tank, tiny bit better tank, dont make em too powerfull. I see em as tactical BS, not a Damage tankedboat
Henning Larsen	Posted - 2009.08.07 18:47:00 - [535] Jump range is fine, Jump calibration works fine ..train it up *please dont make em too insane long ranged
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.08.07 20:05:00 - [536] Originally by: Waga B: T3 cruiser fitted with Cov Ops Sub, should be able to join the blackops/cov ops covert JB category. Unless there is a bug they are allowed to use covert jump bridges assuming they have the subsystem fitted
Kiithnaras Minmatar Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.08.07 23:44:00 - [537] Right, fuel issue is a big one for me. Yes, it takes less now, but it still takes more to bridge a Falcon that it does to jump the Black Ops itself. The culprit here is the jumpPortalConsumptionMassFactor. For Titans, it is 1 x10^-9, which translates to about 0.6 isotopes per million kg (Mega-Kilograms or Gigagrams[Gg]) per lt-yr. For Black Ops, it is 1.8x10^-7, which translates to about 32.4 isotopes per Gg per lt-yr. For the Falcon at a whopping 12.23 Gg, that comes out to be 396.3 isotopes, a fair bit more than the Black Ops would take at 180 isotopes (JFC 4). For the fuel issue, I'd say that reducing the JPCMF to 1.0x10^-7 would be sufficient, and it'd drop the isotopes needed for cruisers and blockade runners bridging to close to or just slightly less than the Black Ops itself. For Falcons, that'd be 220.1 iso/lt-yr, or 18 iso/(Gg x lt-yr) The other issue is the Covert Cynos. Now that they can in fact be activated in cyno-jammed systems, they should be allowed to activate in high-sec as well for the same reasons.
Clock Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.08 09:12:00 - [538] Originally by: Kiithnaras Edited by: Kiithnaras on 07/08/2009 23:48:55 Edit - They do NOT need covert ops cloaks, offensive power, increased base speed, or improved jump range. Though, separate fuel bays (as should ALL jump-capable ships) and improved resistances and reduced mass (overall improved agility) are a plus. seems to me that there are two uses for this ship one group wants to use it as a solo black ops boat, and the other group wants it to take the same ship and make it into some lame logistics taxi for the rest of the fleet ?? i can understand both sides it just doesnt make sense to try and multi role this ship, keep the black ops ships for the solo BO pilots, why dont you just take a transporter ship that ALREADY HAS COV OPS CLOAK not to mention the cargo bay for the fuel to move all your fleet and just give it cov jump abilities that way we can actualy focus on the black ops changes that are relevant to the ship instead of trying to tear the ships actual role in two very different and seperate directions ... and your wrong, it DOES need the ability to warp while cloaked not to mention the use of a cov ops cloak, again, doesnt make sense that this is the top of the line black ops ship but its lacking the use of one of its main tools while cruisers trasnsport ships and frigates all can ???
Trulion Amarr Black Souls Industries	Posted - 2009.08.08 09:45:00 - [539] Black Ops - ship itself costs nearly 800m. Thats insane. Congratulations CCP. Way to screw things. @CCP Chronotis - how dare you say something about steping closer to perfection? As developer team youve created ship class which is useless for 99.9% eve players and costs houndreds of milions. Same thing with T3. Way to go CCP! Now work on your 'fuel bays'. Its good idea but arent you missing main problem?
Sazuka Kirr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2009.08.08 13:37:00 - [540] Originally by: Trulion Black Ops - ship itself costs nearly 800m. Thats insane. Congratulations CCP. Way to screw things. @CCP Chronotis - how dare you say something about steping closer to perfection? As developer team youve created ship class which is useless for 99.9% eve players and costs houndreds of milions. Same thing with T3. Way to go CCP! Now work on your 'fuel bays'. Its good idea but arent you missing main problem? Sounds OK to me. You've got a ship that very few people can fly with a price tag very few people can afford performing a role very few people need. It's a ship that takes 200 days to train for and that's just the base skills. No support skills. No weapon skills. That's the same time as a Carrier. A little longer than a Marauder or Command Ship. It's also a specialised ship, designed to fill a very unique role in a very unique fleet. It's not like they're taking an every day ship and doubling the material requirements, or adding a zero to the end of the price tag. The Black Ops is already a powerful ship, allowing fleets of covert ships to bypass camped systems and large gangs. It can, by itself, jump to a standard or covert cyno beacon in another system FROM highsec. Soon it will allow these fleets to jump into cynojammed systems. Just recently, members of Dirt Nap Squad took out a capital ship using only covert ops capable ships. This was only made possible with the use of a Black Ops and the buff it is going to receive will make attacks like these even more common. What do you expect? What do you want? A T2 Battleship with the ability to jump like a capital ship, bridge like a titan, the firepower of a Marauder and all for the cost of a Command Ship? I bet you'd like the training requirements reduced too so a three month old alt can hop in one as well!

VonCruix	Posted - 2009.08.08 13:52:00 - [541] Originally by: Trulion Its good idea but arent you missing main problem? There is no problem.
Wrayeth Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.08.08 16:06:00 - [542] Edited by: Wrayeth on 08/08/2009 16:07:40 To the devs: While you're at it, is there any chance you could add about 500-ish grid to the widow, please? It's got problems fitting a full setup with a covert portal right now. Normally I'd just use a fitting mod, except it's only got four lows and all of them are needed for a tank to make the ship survivable. Desired setup: 5 siege II 1 improved cloak II 1 covert jump portal 1 quad LiF MWD 1 PWNAGE target painter 1 medium electrochem cap booster 5 hypnos multispecs 2 1600mm reinforced rolled tungsten plates 2 amarr navy EANM 2 trimark rigs Right now, you have to fit a PDU to make the portal fit, thus depriving the ship of one of one of its intended fitting options. Thank you. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Blooded Heromy Shokal Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.08 20:16:00 - [543] 3 months or so since last responds from ccp, its just like i thought, they do not give a shi* about how buged the BO is Signature removed. Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions - Petwraith
Kiithnaras Minmatar Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2009.08.08 20:19:00 - [544] Edited by: Kiithnaras on 08/08/2009 20:20:50 @Clock - you misunderstand. I said the black ops does not need those things, but I certainly won't complain if it gets them. As it stands right now, the black ops vessel is not a front-line main battle ship. It's actually kind of paper-thin relative to other battleships. As such, you should not be warping or jumping your black ops into the front lines unless it is a surprise attack on relatively vulnerable targets. It can insta-warp off once it decloaks if it is aligned, and you should typically be warping it to a safespot in most cases. Now, if it gets the tougher resists and improved firepower, yeah, it should certainly have a covert cloak, but then you'd lose the speed bonus while cloaked. More to the point - There is no such thing as a Solo BO ship. You would have to be pants-on-head weetoddid or insanely lucky to do any sort of PvP in a trillion-isk ship without support. And another thing; black ops ARE logistics taxis first and foremost, just like the other ship with jump portals, Titans. @Wrayeth - Well, that's what you get for trying to fit armor plates to a Caldari ship. Suck it up and find a better fit for that. : )
VonCruix	Posted - 2009.08.08 22:35:00 - [545] Edited by: VonCruix on 08/08/2009 22:39:01 Originally by: Kiithnaras ... black ops ARE logistics taxis first and foremost, just like the other ship with jump portals, Titans. That is a good point that many don't seem to get. Battleships are to Dreads as Black Ops are to Titans Many are trying to fly this ship as they would a Dread or BS, (front line ship) but what they really need to is fly it more like a Titan. It should be mainly used for Logistics, with the occasional surprise direct combat action, in large numbers, when the odds are strongly in its favor. Many have done this to great success. They even have some similar "desirable" preqs, such as JDC V, JFC IV or V, to maximize their Bridges. But, you can only lead a horse to water...
Millsy1	Posted - 2009.08.09 06:08:00 - [546] Edited by: Millsy1 on 09/08/2009 06:14:17 Ok. so the 1000m3 fuel bay is a good start as people have said. As for those who say "it's just for transport" well then why have guns at all. I'd love to see some sort of real advantage that suits the Black ops for combat. "zero calibration time from decloak" sounds great, but it still takes forever to lock anything, which almost compleatly defeats the point. Perhaps allowing some sort of "cloaked targetting" with a downside of using all your cap or preventing you from jumping/warping.. But anyway, I see a problem with the calculations for how much you can move, even with the 1000m3 bay. With Jump Cal 5 and fuel conservation 4, I can transport 11 stealth bombers 4.5 light years, with a return trip (with myself following them through both times) using under 1000m3 But you can't even take 2 haulers/cruisers/t3 strat cruisers for under 1300m3 on that same trip. I would really rather see the system be much cheaper on fuel, and use some other system to limit the amount of ships you can send through at one time. With the Panther full of Cargo expanders and cargo rigs, You can actually bring over 5000m3 in fuel (one giant secure can + fuel bay) So the number goes up to somewhere around 150+ stealth bombers on a one way trip at max range. I would much rather see the cost of a ship being relativly low, but the introduction of a cap usage per activation. Even better would be a similar system to wormholes, everytime the portal is activated, only a certain amount of mass can go through it before it collapes (that number should increase with the 'portal generation' skill that is currently useless), that coupled with a 30-45 second refire delay would prevent huge gangs from jumping in, but still allow longer distances to be traversed.
Wrayeth Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.08.09 16:00:00 - [547] To those who are saying black ops' only purpose is to be a logistics ship and never enter the field of battle, I ask you this: why does every single one of them have combat bonuses? I think the answer is self-explanatory. Originally by: Kiithnaras @Wrayeth - Well, that's what you get for trying to fit armor plates to a Caldari ship. Suck it up and find a better fit for that. : ) You do know that widow setup does somewhere between 600 and 700 DPS, has a 7.2 jam strength with each jammer at black ops 5, and has 21k of armor before factoring in resists, right? I currently run it with a remote rep (hotdropping people with a remote repping gang of black ops ftw), but I'd like the option to fit a portal generator without killing the ship's survivability. And that's where only having four lows becomes a problem. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
VonCruix	Posted - 2009.08.09 18:40:00 - [548] Originally by: Wrayeth To those who are saying black ops' only purpose is to be a logistics ship and never enter the field of battle, I ask you this: why does every single one of them have combat bonuses? I think the answer is self-explanatory. All the Titans have Combat Bonuses as well. How often are they fitted with Turrets? You need to look at all the capabilities of a particular ship to determine its best use, not just its bonuses. And with the Titan and Black Ops, simply looking at its bonuses can lead you down the wrong train of thought. Of course, some, who don't want to use it for its intended use will come up with all kinds of reasons as to why its broke. Doesn't mean that it is broke. It just means its not so useful to them. This ship wasn't meant to be a front line ship of the masses.
GirlScout Amarr OEG Academy GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.11 02:28:00 - [549] Originally by: VonCruix All the Titans have Combat Bonuses as well. How often are they fitted with Turrets? You need to look at all the capabilities of a particular ship to determine its best use, not just its bonuses. And with the Titan and Black Ops, simply looking at its bonuses can lead you down the wrong train of thought. Of course, some, who don't want to use it for its intended use will come up with all kinds of reasons as to why its broke. Doesn't mean that it is broke. It just means its not so useful to them. This ship wasn't meant to be a front line ship of the masses. As of current Black Ops does not deserve their name. These are purely logistic ships. Shame. I wish CCP just give Blocade Runners a jump drive. Carebears posting in this thread will rejoice and leave Black Ops alone to PVP-ers.
Millsy1	Posted - 2009.08.11 04:23:00 - [550] A black ops ship is excellent in certain roles, some of which are combat. Finding and attacking pos's, it is unrivaled. You don't have to get tons of people organized, just jump them in and out past all sorts of gatecamps. And a Panther can do a crapton of DPS, which is really handy to help on small pos's (which hold empty ships, and with all the stuff going on are often unfueled). http://irc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3594643 And really oddly enough, against dreads, they work great, because they never get the chance to target you with the cloaking delay bonus. http://irc.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3096137 It really needs very little to make it useful (not amazing) in regular PVP. A little resistance buff to make it not compleat crap when attacked by 2 ships. WAY better sensors so it can target faster and farther (faster being more important, it should target like cruisers) The old stealth bomber tactic of "de-cloak, fire, cloak" should be the norm.

Kuar Z'thain Fraser's Finest Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:20:00 - [551] Here to agree with other people. Black Ops needs a Covert Cloak and at least double Scan Resolution.
Chi'kote	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:09:00 - [552] Originally by: VonCruix Edited by: VonCruix on 08/08/2009 22:39:01 Originally by: Kiithnaras ... black ops ARE logistics taxis first and foremost, just like the other ship with jump portals, Titans. That is a good point that many don't seem to get. Battleships are to Dreads as Black Ops are to Titans Many are trying to fly this ship as they would a Dread or BS, (front line ship) but what they really need to is fly it more like a Titan. It should be mainly used for Logistics, with the occasional surprise direct combat action, in large numbers, when the odds are strongly in its favor. Many have done this to great success. They even have some similar "desirable" preqs, such as JDC V, JFC IV or V, to maximize their Bridges. But, you can only lead a horse to water... I'll fly my widow like a titan when it can 1) Jump more than cov ops ships 2) Use a doomsday
VonCruix	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:49:00 - [553] Originally by: Chi'kote I'll fly my widow like a titan when it can 1) Jump more than cov ops ships 2) Use a doomsday Here's you missing the point... Probably on purpose.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.13 06:30:00 - [554] Wall of text warning Black Ops are bad. Really, really bad. I've not slogged through the last pages and pages of stuff, but the additions that are proposed are insufficient. The problem with them is, in a nutshell, the capabilities that they provide do not equal the amount that they cost. Black ops have the following problems: #1. Lack of enough cargo to carry all the fuel that is needed to run the jump drive, covert ops portal, ammunition, cap charges etc. #2. Jump range of only 4.5 LY max w/ JDC 5. #3. HP of the ship base is about that of a tier 2 battlecruiser. #4. Cannot warp cloaked. #5. With a cloak fitted, they have the scan resolution close to what a carrier has. I'll address the above one at a time. First the lack of cargo. It's true that CCP has added a fuel bay, and us who use BO thank them for this. However, it's simply not enough. The amount of iso that can be carried can be exhausted by only 1 use of the covert jump bridge with even a small sized recon gang. In addition, it doesn't address the fact that the cargo, while quite large for a battleship, is still going to have to be jammed full of ammo, cap charges, etc. This is one of the reasons that the redeemer > all, because the frequency crystals are relatively small in size and therefore allow more other useful supplies to be carried. Most other types have to port thousands of rounds of various types of ammo, especially the panther. A ammo bay would be very nice here, as it would equalize out the current advantage the redeemer has in this area. In addition, the fuel bay has to be bigger. It would be nice not to have a fuel tanker blockade runner on even short range combat ops. In case no one noticed, the amount of iso that a blockade runner can actually carry is only enough for 2-3 refuelings for a recon type gang, so to have an operation that requires more than this requires you to bring multiple tankers. This is frankly, quite annoying if you're in the gang to be forced to port around multiple non-combat ships (though showing up on KM with a viator by KM whoring w/ multispecs does have a certian amount of style ). Devs working on this issue should take this into account and frankly err on the side of being generous. Jump range very low - 4.5 LY max doesn't cut it. In some areas of eve - the north quickly comes to mind, not surprisingly for me - 4.5 LY won't even get you to the system next door, much less to a tactically advantageous position. The jump range is useful for 2 reasons, for hotdrops, and moving the gang around camped systems and chokepoints. MANY region jumps - where you commonly find said chokepoint camps - are more than 4.5 LY in distance. With regards to using the jump drive and portal for hotdrops, if the distance that it can cover is so low that scouts covering the ingress routes can commonly see the gang to be dropped, it loses a great deal of it's tactical utility. Currently frequently the jump drive is only useful, actually, as a defensive tool. If you already live in a region, and the distances to be covered are therefore short as you're only going to be moving a few systems, this is not a huge disadvantage. However, the concept of the black ops gang really shines as an offensive idea, not a defensive one. The jump range is simply too low. It would be nice if it had at least a 3.5 LY base jump range - the same as a titan - rather than the pitiful 2 LY base range they currently have. This would greatly increase the utility of the device, and greatly increase it's usefulness on anything other than non-local operations. Battlecruiser HP - Is there any reason that a BO has about the same HP as a battlecruiser? While people pay attention to the jump drive, cloak and portaling ability, when it comes right down to it, BO have about the same about of combat ability - actually a bit less - than the tier 1 BS they are based on. They don't have T2 resists. They don't have tanking bonuses. <next>
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.13 06:31:00 - [555] At the point of contact when rounds start being exchanged, they are no more difficult to destroy than any other T1 BS. In actuality, they are easier, because the specialist gear they are required to fit (cloak, portal) crimps their fittings. Throw in the HP reduction and it's very noticeable that you're flying a nearly billion isk ship that can be destroyed by 2 assault frigates. For illustration I'll compare the hurricane, typhoon, and panther. Hurricane has (all examples are with skills) 15626 HP. Panther has 17889 HP - only about 13% more. In comparison, a typhoon has 22364 HP - 20% more than the panther. The result of all of this is that despite all the wizbangery that black ops have, when it comes to actual fighting abilities, they're abnormally fragile - because of their near BC HP - which reduces their combat ability (which is not exceptional to start out with). CCP should restore the HP of these ships to being the same as their T1 equivalents. Cannot warp cloaked - this is a far larger limitation than most I think realize. By definition, under most circumstances a BO is likely to be the center of a black ops squad - a bomber/recon/cov ops etc group - the fact that it cannot do something that each of the other ships in gang can do is a big limitation. When one ship in a gang can't do something that the other ships cannot do, it makes it hard to use in coordination with the other ships in gang. This might not be a major issue, but in a gang of this nature - which is literally based around the concept of being able to use cloaks for hit and run attacks - it's pretty major. In addition, the lack of being able to warp cloaked greatly limits the way that these ships can be used when compared to other black ops squad type ships. As currently designed the cloak isn't that useful, because in order to sneak up on someone, you either need to be in position before they arrive, or have a spot off grid you can warp to and then cloak to make your approach to the target. Otherwise, the target will see you coming which means any advantage given by the cloak is negated. A cloak allows you to maneuver against a target without them being aware that you are present. When you warp near the target and then have to cloak, the element of surprise is lost. They may not know where you are on that grid, but they know that you're on it, which negates a large part of the point in the first place. This means that currently, tactics of gangs that employ BOBS are frequently limited to one of the 3 following circumstances: 1. Camping a fixed point in space, like a gate, station, jump bridge etc. You are on station before any hostile force arrives and therefore the lack of a covert approach is not a great limitation. 2. You sit cloaked at a safespot in system waiting for a gang member to tackle a target so you can warp to him for the attack. 3. You use a gang member to open a cyno on a target and jump yourself and/or the rest of the gang to it. The problem with the above is that hotdropping a target is frequently not feasible due to jump ranges. So that's not that useful. With regards to camping, the question then becomes why if you're going to fight in this sort of battle, is a BOBS needed? You can fit a cloak on a T1 BS, and get nearly the same performance for this kind of combat situation for 1/8th to 1/10th the cost. In addition, it forces a camping playstyle. This is basically the problem with the second tactic as well. Instead of camping a spot yourself, you sit in a safe and wait for a target to be located. Instead of camping a spot, you basically camp the system instead. If you prefer a roaming type playstle - which would seem to be one of the kinds of operations that a BO gang would be for - the lack of a cov ops cloak is a real limitation. Due to the limitation of jump range - which even if extended would not be enough distance to counter some transregional jumps - you must travel through regional choke points frequently <next>
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.13 06:31:00 - [556] in order to reach the best target areas. Not having a true cloak makes this far more difficult than it otherwise would be; also, since all other ships in gang likely do have this ability, there is a definite possibility of gang separation/fragmentation because of the possibility that the BOBS can't make it through the same systems as the rest of the gang due to unacceptable risk factors. The lack of a cov ops cloak is also an issue for other reasons. Running around uncloaked makes it easy for enemy scouts to see that you have a BOBS in gang. Personal experience shows that the price tag on the boat attracts attention, from the enemy I mean. Once they know that you're in one the interest level in chasing you generally skyrockets and enemy groups converge on your location. If your goal is to disrupt enemy logistics and economic activity (kill miners, plexers, ratters) this detracts from the mission goal and impedes the ability to get these types of targets. Ideally they should not know you've got one until the first target explodes. Cloak not only acts as a way to avoid combat you wish to not engage in, but it also is useful in concealing the nature of the ships (and therefore, capabilities) of the group. Also, then we have the fact that not being able to warp to a target cloaked means that by definition you need to already have it tackled before you can warp on grid, unless by chance you are on grid and they're warping to you (which means generally, camping). What this all comes down to is that with the current cloak these ships use, they're effectively supercamping weapons; they can be effective when sitting on a fixed spot but suffer severe limitations as soon as any kind of mobility based warfare is attempted. Now I think that CCP has said that covert cloaks on these ships would be overpowered. My simple question is - why? A simple perusal of the points made above shows that as currently constituted a non covert cloak hampers these ships. If there's a concern that addition of a COCD would cause issues, this can be compensated for in other ways - fittings, cloak/recloak times, and other factors. It should not be balanced by removal of one of the main capabilities that the ship needs to operate in it's intended role. CCP should reconsider their assumptions if this is their current thinking. Last the scan resolution issue, which is related to the fact that these ships can't use a COCD. Improved cloaks, even faction based improved cloaks, nerf scan resolution. BOBS have BS level scan resolution to begin with; while it is higher than the base ship it is based on, the increase is insufficient to compensate for the nerfing the cloak applies to this area. The result is that a sensor booster is required gear on BOBS to counteract this effect, which causes a slot to be wasted. There are 2 solutions to this issue, either increase the scan resolution of the ship to the point that fitting a cloak causes it to lock at carrier speed, or allow it to fit a COCD, which does not nerf scan resolution. The second is what I would recommend based on the analysis of the factors outlined above. As I've outlined in the above (quite lengthy posts) BOBS have enormous issues. However, there's one more - cost. A typical BOBS these days will run you 800m-1b in cost, not counting fittings. When you take this into account, no matter what size fuel bay CCP adds to this ship, it's simply not really worth it. The cost to return ratio is simply not high enough; few will be willing to invest the amount of isk in a ship with these many issues when they could simply spend the isk on purchasing a carrier - a far more capable ship - for the same cost. Granted, they do not do the same things but as long as this is true these ships will either be maintained mostly as hangar queens or used only in special circumstances where their limitations are not crippling. For these reasons I encourage CCP to consider doing more than <next>
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.13 06:32:00 - [557] Edited by: Kai Lae on 13/08/2009 06:34:40 only adding a fuel bay to these ships and/or tinkering with the size of it. These ships need a overall reevaluation in all areas. Hopefully CCP intends to do that, and doesn't relegate them to the same mostly broken scrapheap they've been keeping assault frigates in for the last 5+ years. If you all bothered to read all of the above, my thanks lol. Edit: Oh, and one more thing. Can we get the ability to change or reload ammo while cloaked. It's damn annoying not to be able to do this.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.13 06:40:00 - [558] Originally by: Wrayeth To those who are saying black ops' only purpose is to be a logistics ship and never enter the field of battle, I ask you this: why does every single one of them have combat bonuses? I think the answer is self-explanatory. Apparently not to some people wray-wray. I've heard from a few people that there's "nothing wrong with these ships, they make nice jump haulers". I generally get slightly ill after I hear this.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2009.08.13 09:37:00 - [559] Originally by: Kai Lae Wall of text warning Well written post and good analysis. I personally feel that your first two points are the most critical and if they are remedied, BOBS will be good enough. But I fear that your comparison with Assault Ships will be all too true. Fuel bays for BOs come pre-nerfed c/d?
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.13 14:18:00 - [560] Edited by: rgreat on 13/08/2009 14:18:38 Originally by: Kai Lae I've heard from a few people that there's "nothing wrong with these ships, they make nice jump haulers". I generally get slightly ill after I hear this. This. Also i agree with your analysis. These things must be crystal clear for anyone who ever tried BO as a combat ship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


CCP Abathur	Posted - 2009.08.13 15:48:00 - [561] Edited by: CCP Abathur on 13/08/2009 15:49:22 Originally by: Kai Lae Wall of text warning Thank you for the write up. Posts like yours do a good job of helping highlight the major problem areas from a player's perspective. I can tell you that, aside from the addition of the fuel bay, Black Ops will likely remain unchanged for Apocrypha 1.5. This does not mean they are not on our 'to do' list and we do realize they need a bit of love.

GirlScout Amarr OEG Academy GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:02:00 - [562] Good think you are still have it on 'to do' list... in few years. But for now Brown Ops will prevail... :)
VonCruix	Posted - 2009.08.13 18:18:00 - [563] Originally by: CCP Abathur Edited by: CCP Abathur on 13/08/2009 15:49:22 Originally by: Kai Lae Wall of text warning Thank you for the write up. Posts like yours do a good job of helping highlight the major problem areas from a player's perspective. I can tell you that, aside from the addition of the fuel bay, Black Ops will likely remain unchanged for Apocrypha 1.5. This does not mean they are not on our 'to do' list and we do realize they need a bit of love. Just be sure not to make them the "top" of any progression tree. These ships need to compliment the capabilities of the other "Cloakers", and fill in the gaps, not replace them as the best at it. We need more lateral progression, not vertical. -Don't make them better at anything the Recons are spec'd to do. -Don't turn them into the gankers wet dream. -They shouldn't be the ultimate goal of any CovOps/Recon spec'd char. These ships should maitain their niche role, not become mainstream.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.13 23:38:00 - [564] Originally by: VonCruix Just be sure not to make them the "top" of any progression tree. These ships need to compliment the capabilities of the other "Cloakers", and fill in the gaps, not replace them as the best at it. We need more lateral progression, not vertical. -Don't make them better at anything the Recons are spec'd to do. -Don't turn them into the gankers wet dream. -They shouldn't be the ultimate goal of any CovOps/Recon spec'd char. These ships should maitain their niche role, not become mainstream. #1. Recons are EW platforms. Other than the Widow, none of the BOBS do EW. It's highly unlikely that any changes in black ops would obsolete anything recons do. #2. BOBS are no more of a ganker's wet dream than any T1 BS can be. They have roughly about the same combat characteristics as a T1 BS. Jump drive and cloak do not change this. What these devices do is provide a way for the BOBS to either accept or refuse combat when desired by it's pilot; they also increase mobility. This is actually quite an important trait when the ship you are driving costs over a billion isk with fittings. Even if T2 prices crash again like during the exploit period, BOBS still be expensive at nearly 400m isk (as that's about what I paid for mine when I got it at that time). 3. I disagree. If you're a BS spec pilot, and are inclined to this type of playstyle, why wouldn't BOBS seem like an ultimate goal for this kind of player? You seem to have an incorrect assumption that in eve certain classes of ships are superior to others, in a rock/paper/scissors relationship. Anyone with any kind of extensive experience in eve knows that this is usually a false premise.
VonCruix	Posted - 2009.08.14 00:12:00 - [565] Originally by: Kai Lae #1. Recons are EW platforms. Other than the Widow, none of the BOBS do EW. It's highly unlikely that any changes in black ops would obsolete anything recons do. #2. BOBS are no more of a ganker's wet dream than any T1 BS can be. They have roughly about the same combat characteristics as a T1 BS. Jump drive and cloak do not change this. What these devices do is provide a way for the BOBS to either accept or refuse combat when desired by it's pilot; they also increase mobility. This is actually quite an important trait when the ship you are driving costs over a billion isk with fittings. Even if T2 prices crash again like during the exploit period, BOBS still be expensive at nearly 400m isk (as that's about what I paid for mine when I got it at that time). 3. I disagree. If you're a BS spec pilot, and are inclined to this type of playstyle, why wouldn't BOBS seem like an ultimate goal for this kind of player? You seem to have an incorrect assumption that in eve certain classes of ships are superior to others, in a rock/paper/scissors relationship. Anyone with any kind of extensive experience in eve knows that this is usually a false premise. 1.People have asked for some of those bonuses to be applied to the BlackOps. 2.People have asked for a serious increase in tank, and combined with its mobility, and a few other "requested" tweaks, it would become the "gankers wet dream". That would be dangerous and probably unbalacning. 3.Black Ops need to be "complementry" to the rest of the "Recon" ships overall, not superior. In the end, a BlackOps heavy gang should be at a disadvantage to a more balanced gang. In this, they won't be the ultimate goal. Many things that people have asked for could make a BackOps heavy gang far better than a balanced one. This shouldn't be the case. You have an incorrect assumption of my assumptons.
rgreat Gallente OEG GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.14 06:03:00 - [566] Originally by: VonCruix In the end, a BlackOps heavy gang should be at a disadvantage to a more balanced gang. ...of the same cost. Which will be like 4-10 times more ships. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Potrero Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.08.18 04:15:00 - [567] Originally by: Kai Lae Wall of text I pretty much agree. Another way to see the problems with the BO is to consider what other ship you'd put the BO pilot in. In almost all cases you'll find that you've got a much more cost effective, flexible gang if the BO pilot simply flies a recon instead. - The gang moves much more quickly without the BO - The skill sets required are much less specialized (this alone is a huge advantage) - The gang is much cheaper (not a big deal for everyone but still...) Consider this: Once you get behind enemy lines think about how you get out again. If you're in Recons people are free to log or leave whenever it suits them. If you've got a BO you need at least one alt in position to extricate him. Otherwise he's stuck. I know what CCP is afraid of. BoB or Kenny or whoever fielding vast fleets with dozens of unstoppable invisible battleships. I think that's a valid concern. For that reason the COC has never been a priority for me. Here's what I'd like: - Increased jump range (double it at least) - T2 resists - Some gang assist capability (warfare links, fittings bay, something...) Or the ability for the Cov Ops Portal to pass any frig-sized hull. These changes clearly place the BO in a logistics role. But they make it a force multiplier. That would be enough of a change to be worth it to drag around.
Pord Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:00:00 - [568] With gate guns coming im wondering how this will effect the ability to get decent cyno pilots in systems sometimes aswell as they will instalock i bet, so recon cruisers will have hard time setting up covert cynos
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.22 17:30:00 - [569] Quote: People have asked for a serious increase in tank yeah duh, it's a t2 battleship. Either it needs to tank in accordance with the cost of the ship or the cost of the ship needs to be seriously devalued.
Cain m Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.08.22 22:46:00 - [570] Edited by: Cain m on 22/08/2009 22:52:42 To be perfectly honest, who doesn't fit a widow, sin, or panther (redeemer is fairly combat-capable. Widow can GTFO by jamming 1 or 2 (or with good skills, 3-5) and jumping out, but still isnt a frontline ship) like you would fit a titan? Portal, Cloak, neuts, smartbombs, and a gun or 2. Mids are 7/1 ECM/ECCM and lows are cargo expanders (1k fuel is simply not enough) and nanos (would use istabs but that sig radius is mean) with 2xCCC in the rigs. EDIT: Typo

Lusulpher Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:26:00 - [571] Originally by: rgreat Originally by: VonCruix In the end, a BlackOps heavy gang should be at a disadvantage to a more balanced gang. ...of the same cost. Which will be like 4-10 times more ships. Cost v Risk v Reward dictates that as the price goes up, the reward while above average does not continue to go up. Diminishing Returns they called it a long time ago... What I want to see on a BOBS is a module that finds cloaked ships. Either a Destroyer vairant or them, to help resolve the cloaked afker problem. I love my Razu but's it's cloak and forget 99% of the time. No one is scanning/probing/patrolling for me becuase they don't even have a chance of it. That's where this module or BOBS comes in. After that is implemented go ahead and give the BOBS a CovOp cloak, because now that bastard can be found with my BOBS(have not trained one because it's pretty pointless). 7
Kayosoni Caldari Ghosting Corp	Posted - 2009.08.26 10:02:00 - [572] Black ops should get an AoE effect siege module that allows them to shield other covert ops type vessels from being locked by a POS so they can shoot cyno jammers. That should be their role. ---
DirtyDirty88 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:40:00 - [573] Originally by: Kayosoni Black ops should get an AoE effect siege module that allows them to shield other covert ops type vessels from being locked by a POS so they can shoot cyno jammers. That should be their role. AoE effect. redundancy at its finest.
DNSBLACK Gallente Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:24:00 - [574] Iam amazed this post is still going. Some changes to look at 1. .5 light year increase 2. Bonus adjustment please make them relevant to the ship. The Sin and Panther need this more then the others. 3. Scan res reduction or take the penalty away. We lose all our advantages cause we cant lock people very fast. 4. Would like a cov cloak but not something that is a must but would be nice
Javelin6 Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad	Posted - 2009.08.29 01:52:00 - [575] Cache cleared.
Sith LordX	Posted - 2009.08.29 12:25:00 - [576] Originally by: Rajere Edited by: Rajere on 03/04/2009 09:48:12 Originally by: Overbrain Edited by: Overbrain on 03/04/2009 09:17:10 I sense anger and totaly flawed will to find something wrong in my arguments . But what i see is total fail lol. When i said , if ccp have gave them COC and they would still have slow lock time . Lets see , pump some more blood into your brain and then you will understand. IF* they had COC, then ccp would give them scan res penalty on top* of that . Get it ? These people just cant understand one thing . I see this everywhere. When you ask for a ship to gain an ability, you dont necessarily mean that the ship should gain that ability without losing anything in return or be subject to balance. We ask for COC on Blackops because the ship's name and the overall need for "covert operations" in eve , "calls" for it . Eve needed a stronger/slower force recon which could penetrate deep into so called safe* zones in 0.0 . And we got it, well not quite . Ever wondered why blackops required level(4) cloaking skill ? Which is the same requirement for COC . NOW you are thinking.. Edit: typos Wow, lol. I realize english isn't your first language so i'm not laughing at that, i'm laughing at how completely inaccurate everything you just said was, you managed to be totally off base in every single one of your statements. You do realize that the Scan Resolution Penalty is a function of the actual Cloaking Module itself, and not the ship, right? Are you saying that CCP will create a special BO only Covert Ops Cloaking device and add a Scan Res Penalty to it? Why not just nerf the base scan res of the ships, it would accomplish the same thing? Oh wait, didn't they just boosted the base scan resolutions to partially compensate for the penalty on the Cloak Module? You and everyone else who asked for a COC on blackops did so because you're terrible at this game, and lack even the most elementary concept of how stuff works. You really haven't got a clue, and would use a COC fitted Blackops to try and run around solo, going after ratters in belts, except you'd fail to tackle anything before they could warp off, and then of course you'd lose your COC fitted Blackops in the very first bubble gatecamp you jumped into, which just so happens would be the very next system you jumped into as the locals have already easily identified you and your lack of pvp prowess from your previous attempt to solo gank t1 fit ratting ravens. Even if they were all T2 fit, do you have any idea how many hundreds of ratting battleships you would need to gank before you'd make back enough isk to replace just 1 of your COC fit blackops? You think Eve needs a stronger/slower Force Recon? What makes you think that? Even if it did, what on earth makes you think that Black Ops are supposed to fill that role? is it the diametrically opposed ship design? The fact that they have completely different, yet synergetic pvp roles? Or that they have so much in common, oh wait, absolutely nothing in common with one another? Do you even play eve or are you just trolling me? srs post Mmm one thing you have wrong is, the ability to make isk in this game. A little thing called market trading gets the job done. 250mill per day. Not going to effect a market trader that much if they lose a black ops now is it when we can make that much isk. We can replace such ships in days.
DirtyDirty88 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:36:00 - [577] no the black ops loss didnt affect me much... <-Market *****. but when i lost my wyvern, i start crying my eyes out hahaha. seriously though,.. that stung on a major level
thoth rothschild Strategic Solutions Ltd. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.09.17 22:06:00 - [578] Edited by: thoth rothschild on 17/09/2009 22:06:51 may i ask for T2 resists with Dominion incomming?


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