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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2004.08.22 17:39:00 -
[1]
I have seen many threads about the need to have something that makes it easier to scoop the content of cargo containers.
I would like to collect all arguments why this is needed and all your suggestions on how to make it easier here.
When you collect all arguments for and against its easier for the devs to form an opinion on this and understand what the public thinks or feels about this and why.
If you have made long threads about this then you are free to reply with a short summary and link to a well thoguht of post of yourself elsewhere.
I dare you to impress me and DEVS when they get a chance to read this 
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2004.08.22 17:39:00 -
[2]
I have seen many threads about the need to have something that makes it easier to scoop the content of cargo containers.
I would like to collect all arguments why this is needed and all your suggestions on how to make it easier here.
When you collect all arguments for and against its easier for the devs to form an opinion on this and understand what the public thinks or feels about this and why.
If you have made long threads about this then you are free to reply with a short summary and link to a well thoguht of post of yourself elsewhere.
I dare you to impress me and DEVS when they get a chance to read this
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage
Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.08.22 18:45:00 -
[3]
 Umm...because flying to scoop up cargo is simply not fun. It is a pointless timesink that I frankly find boring - the 'difficulty' should lie in killing the rats not picking up the cargo.
Many suggestions have been offered to 'rectify' this - things such as 'salvage' drones, tractor beams, cargo transporters (ie. you can scoop cargo from lets say within 20km (an ore theif's dream))
Making it possible to scoop cargo quicker would simply make it a more enjoyable gaming experience.
The Sloth.
P.S. Eris I know you were hoping for some profound argument, however the reasoning is quite simple - in my opinion at least.
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The Sloth
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Posted - 2004.08.22 18:45:00 -
[4]
Umm...because flying to scoop up cargo is simply not fun. It is a pointless timesink that I frankly find boring - the 'difficulty' should lie in killing the rats not picking up the cargo.
Many suggestions have been offered to 'rectify' this - things such as 'salvage' drones, tractor beams, cargo transporters (ie. you can scoop cargo from lets say within 20km (an ore theif's dream))
Making it possible to scoop cargo quicker would simply make it a more enjoyable gaming experience.
The Sloth.
P.S. Eris I know you were hoping for some profound argument, however the reasoning is quite simple - in my opinion at least.
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.08.22 22:18:00 -
[5]
yeah sometimes it takes longer to take the loot than to kill the ppl! and thats just wrong >< i mean i see lots of ppl just ignore loot sometimes cause its not worthin going over there and getting it, or just the bs loot or just the cruiser loot, i find that sad cause there might be good loot in the other cans, if u dont want to make it so that u dont have to do that why dont u have a drone that will show u whats in the can so u can decide if its worth the time or not?
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.08.22 22:18:00 -
[6]
yeah sometimes it takes longer to take the loot than to kill the ppl! and thats just wrong >< i mean i see lots of ppl just ignore loot sometimes cause its not worthin going over there and getting it, or just the bs loot or just the cruiser loot, i find that sad cause there might be good loot in the other cans, if u dont want to make it so that u dont have to do that why dont u have a drone that will show u whats in the can so u can decide if its worth the time or not?
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Orb Lati
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Posted - 2004.08.23 00:58:00 -
[7]
This is a non issue.
It doesnt take that long to collect loot from containers.
I will admit there are some Mission locations where static containers are located within Astorid caves which can be a bit tricky but i would rather ask for beeter object detection so i can manuver more easily around roids and objects.
If you find that your long range, slow moving setup means that you take to long collecting items in containers then reconsider your fitout.
"We Worship Strength, because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Orb Lati
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Posted - 2004.08.23 00:58:00 -
[8]
This is a non issue.
It doesnt take that long to collect loot from containers.
I will admit there are some Mission locations where static containers are located within Astorid caves which can be a bit tricky but i would rather ask for beeter object detection so i can manuver more easily around roids and objects.
If you find that your long range, slow moving setup means that you take to long collecting items in containers then reconsider your fitout.
"We Worship Strength, because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Cutter John
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Posted - 2004.08.23 02:12:00 -
[9]
right now, you can fit a mwd and make loot pickup faster.. but ever tried it without? its insanely slow, even in frigates. even if you fight medium range, at 30k, it can still take upwards of 10 minutes to collect all the cans. for those that prefer long range hunting, its necessary to bookmark the can, warp out, and back in at the can. my apoc does 140m/s without a mwd i believe.. to fly 30k takes 3.5 minutes. then once i get to that can, i have several more minutes of flying to get to the next one. and so on.
simple truth is its NOT needed... its simply a convenience we want added, much like the shuttles or the ability to set destination from the assets window, to reduce/eliminate one of the more tedious portions of this game.
My Idea Thread
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Cutter John
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Posted - 2004.08.23 02:12:00 -
[10]
right now, you can fit a mwd and make loot pickup faster.. but ever tried it without? its insanely slow, even in frigates. even if you fight medium range, at 30k, it can still take upwards of 10 minutes to collect all the cans. for those that prefer long range hunting, its necessary to bookmark the can, warp out, and back in at the can. my apoc does 140m/s without a mwd i believe.. to fly 30k takes 3.5 minutes. then once i get to that can, i have several more minutes of flying to get to the next one. and so on.
simple truth is its NOT needed... its simply a convenience we want added, much like the shuttles or the ability to set destination from the assets window, to reduce/eliminate one of the more tedious portions of this game.
My Idea Thread
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ElDiabloRojo
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Posted - 2004.08.23 08:50:00 -
[11]
Personally im not sure about the idea of scooping a cargo container itself. on a lag free connection scooping is the same as select all and dragging into your cargo.
However there are a few things i do think are needed in the game. Firstly the ability to SEE whats inside a cargo can at a higher range then 1.5km i mean come on! Thousands of years in the future and scanners cant penetrate something that is itself described as weak and thin material. 5km at LEAST but im talking much greater (skill related?).
Secondly is a faster way to get to the container, ok u right clicked and pressed SCAN and got a report with a 95% accuracy or whatever and u see in letters that seem to emit their own light "1400mm 'Scout' Artillery". But the containers 60km away and your ina BS. By the time u get there more NPCs will of shown up, most likely in that exact spot. So i can think of 2 ways to do this. Firstly how about a drone, call it what u will. given the average value of stuff in a container a ****er scooper drone would be fairly accurate. basicly it has a skill whos bonus adds to the range of this type of drone, its fairly big but also very fast. has no weapons. it just flies up, grabs all the stuff and comes back. drops it in your hold like a mining drone and orbits (or goes back for more in the case of a REALLY full can). This could also be given a feature where u can send stuff over ina drone... bit more complex for the targeting system but would really make drones more realistic (orbit, attack, mine as the only options really sucks the life out of a cool-o-meter)
The other idea was just a tractor beam of sorts, give it a range and say it adds a pulling force to whatever u use it on. High slot mod?
I spose a "transporter" would be ok but too star trek for my liking (not that theres anything wrong with star trek, its just nothing like eve and so shouldnt be mixed)
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ElDiabloRojo
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Posted - 2004.08.23 08:50:00 -
[12]
Personally im not sure about the idea of scooping a cargo container itself. on a lag free connection scooping is the same as select all and dragging into your cargo.
However there are a few things i do think are needed in the game. Firstly the ability to SEE whats inside a cargo can at a higher range then 1.5km i mean come on! Thousands of years in the future and scanners cant penetrate something that is itself described as weak and thin material. 5km at LEAST but im talking much greater (skill related?).
Secondly is a faster way to get to the container, ok u right clicked and pressed SCAN and got a report with a 95% accuracy or whatever and u see in letters that seem to emit their own light "1400mm 'Scout' Artillery". But the containers 60km away and your ina BS. By the time u get there more NPCs will of shown up, most likely in that exact spot. So i can think of 2 ways to do this. Firstly how about a drone, call it what u will. given the average value of stuff in a container a ****er scooper drone would be fairly accurate. basicly it has a skill whos bonus adds to the range of this type of drone, its fairly big but also very fast. has no weapons. it just flies up, grabs all the stuff and comes back. drops it in your hold like a mining drone and orbits (or goes back for more in the case of a REALLY full can). This could also be given a feature where u can send stuff over ina drone... bit more complex for the targeting system but would really make drones more realistic (orbit, attack, mine as the only options really sucks the life out of a cool-o-meter)
The other idea was just a tractor beam of sorts, give it a range and say it adds a pulling force to whatever u use it on. High slot mod?
I spose a "transporter" would be ok but too star trek for my liking (not that theres anything wrong with star trek, its just nothing like eve and so shouldnt be mixed)
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ElDiabloRojo
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Posted - 2004.08.23 08:55:00 -
[13]
Edited by: ElDiabloRojo on 23/08/2004 08:56:50
 Originally by: Orb Lati
This is a non issue.
If you find that your long range, slow moving setup means that you take to long collecting items in containers then reconsider your fitout.
duno if u wanted a discussion but i have a coment on this. its a new reply so u can delte with ease i guess :)
but your clearly meaning to fit a MWD here. firstly a MWD takes up a whole mid slot, some ships have only 2/3 in the first place. seccondly they take 25% of your cap, bye bye constant laser mr APOC. thridly they take 25% shield, bye bye 7000+ shields mr Raven. i mean think about what your saying. why dont we just go into a 0.0 belt alone with only small guns and no spare ammo... heck lets drop the drones and insurance too. and dont forget to make sure no 1s within 5 jumps that could help u. if its a choice between loosing 25% of my shields or 500M^3 of drone bay ill take the drone bay thanks.
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ElDiabloRojo
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Posted - 2004.08.23 08:55:00 -
[14]
Edited by: ElDiabloRojo on 23/08/2004 08:56:50
Originally by: Orb Lati
This is a non issue.
If you find that your long range, slow moving setup means that you take to long collecting items in containers then reconsider your fitout.
duno if u wanted a discussion but i have a coment on this. its a new reply so u can delte with ease i guess :)
but your clearly meaning to fit a MWD here. firstly a MWD takes up a whole mid slot, some ships have only 2/3 in the first place. seccondly they take 25% of your cap, bye bye constant laser mr APOC. thridly they take 25% shield, bye bye 7000+ shields mr Raven. i mean think about what your saying. why dont we just go into a 0.0 belt alone with only small guns and no spare ammo... heck lets drop the drones and insurance too. and dont forget to make sure no 1s within 5 jumps that could help u. if its a choice between loosing 25% of my shields or 500M^3 of drone bay ill take the drone bay thanks.
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Dane
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Posted - 2004.08.23 09:16:00 -
[15]
I don't have a problem with the way the current setup is for scooping loot, but here are a few ideas.
It would be nice if I remained targeted in some way on the container after I killed whatever it was. If you move around a lot during combat, it can be time consuming looking for those containers, especially if there are already a lot of containers around.
How about if I could just double click on a container to open it when on the approach. Or perhaps just being able to double click on the contents of the container to have it move to your hold.
The tractor beam idea is very E&B...and we know where they went 
Looking for someone to make me a sig banner. Please eve-mail me :) No ridiculous offers need apply. |
Dane
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Posted - 2004.08.23 09:16:00 -
[16]
I don't have a problem with the way the current setup is for scooping loot, but here are a few ideas.
It would be nice if I remained targeted in some way on the container after I killed whatever it was. If you move around a lot during combat, it can be time consuming looking for those containers, especially if there are already a lot of containers around.
How about if I could just double click on a container to open it when on the approach. Or perhaps just being able to double click on the contents of the container to have it move to your hold.
The tractor beam idea is very E&B...and we know where they went
Looking for someone to make me a sig banner. Please eve-mail me :) No ridiculous offers need apply. |
Arte
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Posted - 2004.08.23 11:56:00 -
[17]
Why it's needed? I think that it's an enjoyment thing.. it detracts from the game slightly if hunting NPCs or scavenging is your thing. The right opinion is that why in all this futuristic times have we not thought of a way to open them up or fetch them with more ease. I think that fitting an mwd is a viable option (I dont fly BS so ner) but you fire it up and fly past the can cos even with approach you can't stop at the can because ship mechanics won't slow it down for you in time. So you take longer. When you're doing a mission where you need to clear a spawn to open a can (temple stone for instance) you dont want to be hanging around. I think that the option is to open up the range for scooping contents to say 3km or maybe even 5km. I know this will affect ore thiefs but that's a different arguement. The scanner drone is mute i think cos we already have cargo scanners (am i right in saying the work on jet cans?) but perhaps the Dev's could work harder on the salvage drone. Make it a heavy so that you have an inbuilt difficulty (saves time nerfing it later), or vary size so that each size can carry more or less cargo as appropriate. or even just drag the cans to the parent ship.
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Arte
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Posted - 2004.08.23 11:56:00 -
[18]
Why it's needed? I think that it's an enjoyment thing.. it detracts from the game slightly if hunting NPCs or scavenging is your thing. The right opinion is that why in all this futuristic times have we not thought of a way to open them up or fetch them with more ease. I think that fitting an mwd is a viable option (I dont fly BS so ner) but you fire it up and fly past the can cos even with approach you can't stop at the can because ship mechanics won't slow it down for you in time. So you take longer. When you're doing a mission where you need to clear a spawn to open a can (temple stone for instance) you dont want to be hanging around. I think that the option is to open up the range for scooping contents to say 3km or maybe even 5km. I know this will affect ore thiefs but that's a different arguement. The scanner drone is mute i think cos we already have cargo scanners (am i right in saying the work on jet cans?) but perhaps the Dev's could work harder on the salvage drone. Make it a heavy so that you have an inbuilt difficulty (saves time nerfing it later), or vary size so that each size can carry more or less cargo as appropriate. or even just drag the cans to the parent ship.
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Zzazzt
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Posted - 2004.08.23 12:59:00 -
[19]
The "problem" is really when fighting BS spawns in a BS. Fitting MWD can cripple your setup, and collecting loot in a BS takes far longer than killing the spawn, most of the time. With the 0.0 spawn changes in recent patches, I regularly found myself being jumped by a secondary (different faction) spwan whilst still collecting the loot from the primary. There's nothing wrong with the actual scooping mechanic (apart from the odd lag bug), it's just the time it takes to get over to the pesky things.
Because of this, as has been previously stated, people often leave the loot behind (especially if you're killing npcs in downtime between engagements), which leads to semi-permanent can fields, which of course create lag on the spawn.
Any solution (salvage drones being the most continuous with the eve universe imo) which would reduce the amount of time needed to collect loot would be most welcome to 99% of the rat-hunting population, i should think.
____________________________________________
MLM: Gentlemen at Play |
Zzazzt
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Posted - 2004.08.23 12:59:00 -
[20]
The "problem" is really when fighting BS spawns in a BS. Fitting MWD can cripple your setup, and collecting loot in a BS takes far longer than killing the spawn, most of the time. With the 0.0 spawn changes in recent patches, I regularly found myself being jumped by a secondary (different faction) spwan whilst still collecting the loot from the primary. There's nothing wrong with the actual scooping mechanic (apart from the odd lag bug), it's just the time it takes to get over to the pesky things.
Because of this, as has been previously stated, people often leave the loot behind (especially if you're killing npcs in downtime between engagements), which leads to semi-permanent can fields, which of course create lag on the spawn.
Any solution (salvage drones being the most continuous with the eve universe imo) which would reduce the amount of time needed to collect loot would be most welcome to 99% of the rat-hunting population, i should think.
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MLM: Gentlemen at Play |
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Von Schnopp
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Posted - 2004.08.23 15:29:00 -
[21]
From the most obvious solutions to this probelm being:
A. increased intervals between rat spawning giving the concerned BS pilot enough time to scoop the loot with the downside being a less merry NPC hunt....
B. ...and introducing long range tractor beams/transfer beams that are bound to become the favourite christmas present of orethieves....
...I'd rather see salvage drones capable of moving the cans closer to the ship or simpy bring the loot into the cargo hold. Question is, will they be restricted to 40-50km as their bigger brothers or will there be a salvage drone skill allowing for long range operation (20% extra range per level or something).
"Dying for your corp is just stupid, make those other bastards die for theirs instead" |
Von Schnopp
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Posted - 2004.08.23 15:29:00 -
[22]
From the most obvious solutions to this probelm being:
A. increased intervals between rat spawning giving the concerned BS pilot enough time to scoop the loot with the downside being a less merry NPC hunt....
B. ...and introducing long range tractor beams/transfer beams that are bound to become the favourite christmas present of orethieves....
...I'd rather see salvage drones capable of moving the cans closer to the ship or simpy bring the loot into the cargo hold. Question is, will they be restricted to 40-50km as their bigger brothers or will there be a salvage drone skill allowing for long range operation (20% extra range per level or something).
"Dying for your corp is just stupid, make those other bastards die for theirs instead" |
Rask
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Posted - 2004.08.23 18:51:00 -
[23]
I would love this, and i understand the problem with ore thieves.
how about this a tractor beam that slowly moves cans towards you, say 50m/s and has a max range of 100m, it doesn't need the can targeted to work.
You can have up to 10 cans under tractor at one time and if a can is under tractor it can't be tractored by someone else.
This would let a miner tractor the can he is filling and also give the concord a way of detecting ore theft. ie if you take goods froma can that is under tractor it is the same as opening opening a secure can.
As the can he is filling is under tractor then it can't be stolen.
The idea of cargo transport by transporter beam isn't realistic IMHO as stated ore thieves would love this,
The other alternitive is cargo can drones, that will fetch cans and bring them back to you.
One thing this would also let you do is move your jetisoned can that you are filling along with you when you need to move to mine more rocks of the kind you are mineing.
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Rask
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Posted - 2004.08.23 18:51:00 -
[24]
I would love this, and i understand the problem with ore thieves.
how about this a tractor beam that slowly moves cans towards you, say 50m/s and has a max range of 100m, it doesn't need the can targeted to work.
You can have up to 10 cans under tractor at one time and if a can is under tractor it can't be tractored by someone else.
This would let a miner tractor the can he is filling and also give the concord a way of detecting ore theft. ie if you take goods froma can that is under tractor it is the same as opening opening a secure can.
As the can he is filling is under tractor then it can't be stolen.
The idea of cargo transport by transporter beam isn't realistic IMHO as stated ore thieves would love this,
The other alternitive is cargo can drones, that will fetch cans and bring them back to you.
One thing this would also let you do is move your jetisoned can that you are filling along with you when you need to move to mine more rocks of the kind you are mineing.
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Wyckoff
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Posted - 2004.08.23 20:15:00 -
[25]
Why is it needed:
Why not? Is Tracking disrupter needed when you can use a Ecm Burst? Why use Projectiles when you have Beams or Hyrbrids. No, silly argument. How about its just plain convienent, like having Jump Gates.
And keep it to simple Salvage Drones. I'm not sure which Industrials have Drone Bays, only using the Bestower, but I do know the Bestower doesn't. That way we make those Pesky Ore-relocationists have to travel for others' ore.
Besides, there is NO reason not to have them:
1. They are a convienence.
2. They are technolocially feasible from an Eve Standpoint.
3. There is a demand.
Sounds like all the ingredients necessary for a consumer driven market.
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"I Type with my Tongue" |
Wyckoff
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Posted - 2004.08.23 20:15:00 -
[26]
Why is it needed:
Why not? Is Tracking disrupter needed when you can use a Ecm Burst? Why use Projectiles when you have Beams or Hyrbrids. No, silly argument. How about its just plain convienent, like having Jump Gates.
And keep it to simple Salvage Drones. I'm not sure which Industrials have Drone Bays, only using the Bestower, but I do know the Bestower doesn't. That way we make those Pesky Ore-relocationists have to travel for others' ore.
Besides, there is NO reason not to have them:
1. They are a convienence.
2. They are technolocially feasible from an Eve Standpoint.
3. There is a demand.
Sounds like all the ingredients necessary for a consumer driven market.
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"I Type with my Tongue" |
Jemba'k Ko'cha
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Posted - 2004.08.23 20:29:00 -
[27]
have to agree with everyone else. i tend to hunt at around 30km out only dropping in closer if the enemy manages to get close. on one agent mission i did the other day i killed 20 rats, their cans were spread over an area of about 200 square km's so it took me forever to go from can to can to can.
either a Drone for collecting loot or some form of tractor beam (5km starting distance, skill lvl 1 gives 6km, lvl 2 gives 8, lvl 3 gives 11, lvl 4 gives 15 and lvl 5 gives 20km)
make us spend less time picking up rubbish and more time ENJOYING the game and in turn making us want to play for longer.
i feel that no one option is correct, drones are good for the likes of cruisers/BS etc but tractor beams would be handy for Indys who for some bizarre rason have NO drone capacity. 6000m cubed of storage space and not a single one allocated to drones.
some form of cargo retrieval i tihnk is essential. the 2 obvious choices are of course tractor beams or drones. either way i tihnk your going to make more people happy than unhappy.
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Knowledge is the bomb |
Jemba'k Ko'cha
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Posted - 2004.08.23 20:29:00 -
[28]
have to agree with everyone else. i tend to hunt at around 30km out only dropping in closer if the enemy manages to get close. on one agent mission i did the other day i killed 20 rats, their cans were spread over an area of about 200 square km's so it took me forever to go from can to can to can.
either a Drone for collecting loot or some form of tractor beam (5km starting distance, skill lvl 1 gives 6km, lvl 2 gives 8, lvl 3 gives 11, lvl 4 gives 15 and lvl 5 gives 20km)
make us spend less time picking up rubbish and more time ENJOYING the game and in turn making us want to play for longer.
i feel that no one option is correct, drones are good for the likes of cruisers/BS etc but tractor beams would be handy for Indys who for some bizarre rason have NO drone capacity. 6000m cubed of storage space and not a single one allocated to drones.
some form of cargo retrieval i tihnk is essential. the 2 obvious choices are of course tractor beams or drones. either way i tihnk your going to make more people happy than unhappy.
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Knowledge is the bomb |
David Corbett
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Posted - 2004.08.23 21:55:00 -
[29]
I'm rather new, but already I note the annoyance factor in icking those up. As I'm a Caldari flying a Caracal, my setup is long-range. I usually am engaged in a running firefight with some guristas types, and when I'm done, I discover I have a nice little constellation of cans over 100km long. (Case in point: The Barricade mission.) There's no way I'm going to run over there and grab them all... it's pretty bad for us, considering our long range/not that fast ship bent. Not so bad for Minmatar, considering their (relatively) shorter range and faster ships.
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David Corbett
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Posted - 2004.08.23 21:55:00 -
[30]
I'm rather new, but already I note the annoyance factor in icking those up. As I'm a Caldari flying a Caracal, my setup is long-range. I usually am engaged in a running firefight with some guristas types, and when I'm done, I discover I have a nice little constellation of cans over 100km long. (Case in point: The Barricade mission.) There's no way I'm going to run over there and grab them all... it's pretty bad for us, considering our long range/not that fast ship bent. Not so bad for Minmatar, considering their (relatively) shorter range and faster ships.
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