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New Specialization Skills Are Contradictory

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Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:14:00 - [1] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 30/09/2004 19:01:22 Linky See the above image. It shows the skill requirements to train for Large RailGun Specialization. A definition of specialization: Main Entry: speÀcialÀiÀzaÀtion Pronunciation: "spe-sh(&-)l&-'zA-sh&n Function: noun 1 : a making or becoming specialized 2 a : structural adaptation of a body part to a particular function or of an organism for life in a particular environment b : a body part or an organism adapted by specialization Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Surely it would be a better idea to make the requirements only Level 5 in the associated weapon types rather than force battleship pilots to train up 2 further specializations just so we can gain an advantage in our chosen weapon. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:14:00 - [2] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 30/09/2004 19:01:22 Linky See the above image. It shows the skill requirements to train for Large RailGun Specialization. A definition of specialization: Main Entry: speÀcialÀiÀzaÀtion Pronunciation: "spe-sh(&-)l&-'zA-sh&n Function: noun 1 : a making or becoming specialized 2 a : structural adaptation of a body part to a particular function or of an organism for life in a particular environment b : a body part or an organism adapted by specialization Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Surely it would be a better idea to make the requirements only Level 5 in the associated weapon types rather than force battleship pilots to train up 2 further specializations just so we can gain an advantage in our chosen weapon. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Parallax Error	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:19:00 - [3] Edited by: Parallax Error on 01/09/2004 16:21:15 I quite agree with this. Specialisation in large turrets should only be dependant on the large turret skills, not having medium and small as prerequisites. Instead of having specialist frigate, cruiser and battleship pilots you'll still have fairly generalised combat pilots.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:19:00 - [4] Edited by: Parallax Error on 01/09/2004 16:21:15 I quite agree with this. Specialisation in large turrets should only be dependant on the large turret skills, not having medium and small as prerequisites. Instead of having specialist frigate, cruiser and battleship pilots you'll still have fairly generalised combat pilots.
Core Bash	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:22:00 - [5] Agreed! á
Core Bash	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:22:00 - [6] Agreed! á
meowcat	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:23:00 - [7] totally agree i want my frigate specialisations to be 'special' and not just a necessary evil that BS pilots have to get. we should have BS pilots who suck in frigates.
meowcat	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:23:00 - [8] totally agree i want my frigate specialisations to be 'special' and not just a necessary evil that BS pilots have to get. we should have BS pilots who suck in frigates.
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:24:00 - [9] Look, they need at least 2 months to finish tech2 large turrets, thats why and now more serioulsy, it indeed stinks. Leave the small and med specialisation skills out of it and add something like BS4 and some other BS related stuff f you want to make it hard
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:24:00 - [10] Look, they need at least 2 months to finish tech2 large turrets, thats why and now more serioulsy, it indeed stinks. Leave the small and med specialisation skills out of it and add something like BS4 and some other BS related stuff f you want to make it hard
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:25:00 - [11] Agreed. I really don't see it as Specialization when I've have to train for a ton of other stuff for a long time too. ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:25:00 - [12] Agreed. I really don't see it as Specialization when I've have to train for a ton of other stuff for a long time too. ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Avon	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:26:00 - [13] Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Avon	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Parallax Error Edited by: Parallax Error on 01/09/2004 16:21:15 I quite agree with this. Specialisation in large turrets should only be dependant on the large turret skills, not having medium and small as prerequisites. Instead of having specialist frigate, cruiser and battleship pilots you'll still have fairly generalised combat pilots. Exactly. Battleship pilots will now be specialized in weapons use across all classes just so they can use their favoured and most used weapons which surely contradicts the whole point of specializing. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Parallax Error Edited by: Parallax Error on 01/09/2004 16:21:15 I quite agree with this. Specialisation in large turrets should only be dependant on the large turret skills, not having medium and small as prerequisites. Instead of having specialist frigate, cruiser and battleship pilots you'll still have fairly generalised combat pilots. Exactly. Battleship pilots will now be specialized in weapons use across all classes just so they can use their favoured and most used weapons which surely contradicts the whole point of specializing. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Zinke	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:29:00 - [17] Well, i kind of disagree. You need to train simple things to be able to grasp highly specialized matter. What i don't like is that ccp just makes them high rank skills and force long training upon us. Further i don't like most of the new (and in some cases specialized skills) becase they have insane requirements that force us all to train same useless skills (what else would be point of requirements on new spaceship command skills). And before somebody cames and say that i don't need to be able to fly all ships (i only fly gallante) i would like to remind them that this is space game and i am pilot first (as we all are) and then whatever i chose to be in game.
Zinke	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:29:00 - [18] Well, i kind of disagree. You need to train simple things to be able to grasp highly specialized matter. What i don't like is that ccp just makes them high rank skills and force long training upon us. Further i don't like most of the new (and in some cases specialized skills) becase they have insane requirements that force us all to train same useless skills (what else would be point of requirements on new spaceship command skills). And before somebody cames and say that i don't need to be able to fly all ships (i only fly gallante) i would like to remind them that this is space game and i am pilot first (as we all are) and then whatever i chose to be in game.
The Sloth	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:32:00 - [19] Agreed. However the reason for this probably lies in the fact that CCP wanted the specialisation to have a huge amount of training time. You have to ask yourself this - would you prefer a higher rank (i.e. rank 12) and some other requirement for the skill or would you prefer to spend the same amount of time training and end up being 'specialised' in the lesser skills as well? The Sloth.
The Sloth	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:32:00 - [20] Agreed. However the reason for this probably lies in the fact that CCP wanted the specialisation to have a huge amount of training time. You have to ask yourself this - would you prefer a higher rank (i.e. rank 12) and some other requirement for the skill or would you prefer to spend the same amount of time training and end up being 'specialised' in the lesser skills as well? The Sloth.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:33:00 - [21] Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 3 Sharpshooter 3 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 3 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 4 Sharpshooter 4 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 4 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Something along those lines seems more suited to REAL specialization. If that leaves too little training time, then up the rank of the specialization skill. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:33:00 - [22] Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 3 Sharpshooter 3 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 3 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 4 Sharpshooter 4 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 4 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Something along those lines seems more suited to REAL specialization. If that leaves too little training time, then up the rank of the specialization skill. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Einheriar Ulrich	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:39:00 - [23] Im wondering what the stance on new clones are from ccp, we havent heard anything, and i know alot of these new skills, will put alot near the limit and some over it SO what is the use of these skills, when you in the end cannot get a clone that incompasses these new skills. So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar. **Minion Of VOTF**
Einheriar Ulrich	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:39:00 - [24] Im wondering what the stance on new clones are from ccp, we havent heard anything, and i know alot of these new skills, will put alot near the limit and some over it SO what is the use of these skills, when you in the end cannot get a clone that incompasses these new skills. So Say I. Einheriar Ulrich of the Bloodline of Einheriar. **Minion Of VOTF**
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Daakkon	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:50:00 - [27] contra what? hehe I agree with you josh www.dark-cartel.com
Daakkon	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:50:00 - [28] contra what? hehe I agree with you josh www.dark-cartel.com
Tindel	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:54:00 - [29] Yeah i dont like it either, get the bs noobs away from my small turrets willya Y helo thar
Tindel	Posted - 2004.09.01 16:54:00 - [30] Yeah i dont like it either, get the bs noobs away from my small turrets willya Y helo thar
Lord Azraiel	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:04:00 - [31] /signed I don't fly battleships anymore and even I don't like this. "I'm comin' for ya, and Hell's comin' with me!"
Lord Azraiel	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:04:00 - [32] /signed I don't fly battleships anymore and even I don't like this. "I'm comin' for ya, and Hell's comin' with me!"
DJTheBaron	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:09:00 - [33] Originally by: Joshua Calvert *** and whine, whine and ***, oh look at me, im on the forums again, oh oh devs, ccp, look at my post why the hell should any dev, gm, or ccp read a post just because they are placed in the title, they dont care, they have better things to do than listen to you summon them over trivial issues __________________________________________________ Scum, your all scum.
DJTheBaron	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:09:00 - [34] Originally by: Joshua Calvert *** and whine, whine and ***, oh look at me, im on the forums again, oh oh devs, ccp, look at my post why the hell should any dev, gm, or ccp read a post just because they are placed in the title, they dont care, they have better things to do than listen to you summon them over trivial issues __________________________________________________ Scum, your all scum.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:11:00 - [35] Originally by: DJTheBaron Originally by: Joshua Calvert *** and whine, whine and *, oh look at me, im on the forums again, oh oh devs, ccp, look at my post why the hell should any dev, gm, or ccp read a post just because they are placed in the title, they dont care, they have better things to do than listen to you summon them over trivial issues Whereas you, obviously, don't. Now shut the up and go smacktalk in Nonni some more. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:11:00 - [36] Originally by: DJTheBaron Originally by: Joshua Calvert *** and whine, whine and *, oh look at me, im on the forums again, oh oh devs, ccp, look at my post why the hell should any dev, gm, or ccp read a post just because they are placed in the title, they dont care, they have better things to do than listen to you summon them over trivial issues Whereas you, obviously, don't. Now shut the up and go smacktalk in Nonni some more. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
Seleene	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:12:00 - [37] I'm with Josh. *SIGNED* - T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today!
Seleene	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:12:00 - [38] I'm with Josh. *SIGNED* - T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today!
Avon	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. lol, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was driving home Josh, it is a valid point. Maybe they should not be requirements, but I think there should be some type of bonus for having them all, or at least have the bigger gun bonus benefit in some way by from the level of the smaller ones. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Avon	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. lol, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was driving home Josh, it is a valid point. Maybe they should not be requirements, but I think there should be some type of bonus for having them all, or at least have the bigger gun bonus benefit in some way by from the level of the smaller ones. ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. lol, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was driving home Josh, it is a valid point. Maybe they should not be requirements, but I think there should be some type of bonus for having them all, or at least have the bigger gun bonus benefit in some way by from the level of the smaller ones. It would be sweet if the damage bonus stacked I think it's just a bit unfair that a person chosing to specialize in frigates/cruisers has less training time to get his specialization compared to a battleship pilot but then doesn't feel that specialized because every BS pilot has the same skills as him. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. lol, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was driving home Josh, it is a valid point. Maybe they should not be requirements, but I think there should be some type of bonus for having them all, or at least have the bigger gun bonus benefit in some way by from the level of the smaller ones. It would be sweet if the damage bonus stacked I think it's just a bit unfair that a person chosing to specialize in frigates/cruisers has less training time to get his specialization compared to a battleship pilot but then doesn't feel that specialized because every BS pilot has the same skills as him. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Wyckoff	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:24:00 - [43] Originally by: DJTheBaron I apologize for my nubness, my father never showed me enough love I agree. By making players who want to specialize in Large Hybrids also become elite in Small Hyrbids, cheapens the game for those not interested in become Large Turret Masters. In order to drive a Car, knowing how to drive a Bicycle, a Motorcycle and a 4-wheel ATV is not necessary. I should hope that the skills required to fly a Frigate and to fly a battleship are significantly different that one is not necessary to do the other, though I can understand how one would be helpful, and do agree with EVE's game mechanics in this case. But not with weapons and certainly not to this degree. ______________ "I Type with my Tongue"
Wyckoff	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:24:00 - [44] Originally by: DJTheBaron I apologize for my nubness, my father never showed me enough love I agree. By making players who want to specialize in Large Hybrids also become elite in Small Hyrbids, cheapens the game for those not interested in become Large Turret Masters. In order to drive a Car, knowing how to drive a Bicycle, a Motorcycle and a 4-wheel ATV is not necessary. I should hope that the skills required to fly a Frigate and to fly a battleship are significantly different that one is not necessary to do the other, though I can understand how one would be helpful, and do agree with EVE's game mechanics in this case. But not with weapons and certainly not to this degree. ______________ "I Type with my Tongue"
Bretarin Thor	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:26:00 - [45] I always saw tech 2 stuff as means of specialising in an area you are already trained in. i.e. you already know how to use large energy turrets (tech 1), the tech 2 ones mean you are focusing more on them to get better than the average user, there isn't any need for you to get better at using small energy turrets becuase you can already use the bs guns.
Bretarin Thor	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:26:00 - [46] I always saw tech 2 stuff as means of specialising in an area you are already trained in. i.e. you already know how to use large energy turrets (tech 1), the tech 2 ones mean you are focusing more on them to get better than the average user, there isn't any need for you to get better at using small energy turrets becuase you can already use the bs guns.
olyyy	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:26:00 - [47] I disagree here: 1. The heavy requirements are necessary for the use of those turrets. They give quite a nice bonus, the skill add a bonus, the lvl5 in large hybrid gives a nice bonus too... Having small and medium hybrid lvl5 is like having lvl4 in minmatar frig and cruiser to be able to train for the battleship skill. The Sharpshooter lvl5 requirement is like for elite frigs: there is a main skill required (lvl5 in a race frig) and another skill necessary which has a link with the elite frig (evasive maneuvering lvl5 for interceptors). 2. However 2 skills shouldn't be required imo: small and medium Railgun Specialization. But that's just a matter of view. Admit that you're just too lazy to train up your skill Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 )
olyyy	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:26:00 - [48] I disagree here: 1. The heavy requirements are necessary for the use of those turrets. They give quite a nice bonus, the skill add a bonus, the lvl5 in large hybrid gives a nice bonus too... Having small and medium hybrid lvl5 is like having lvl4 in minmatar frig and cruiser to be able to train for the battleship skill. The Sharpshooter lvl5 requirement is like for elite frigs: there is a main skill required (lvl5 in a race frig) and another skill necessary which has a link with the elite frig (evasive maneuvering lvl5 for interceptors). 2. However 2 skills shouldn't be required imo: small and medium Railgun Specialization. But that's just a matter of view. Admit that you're just too lazy to train up your skill Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 )
ElricUK	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:28:00 - [49] Im sorry but if I know how to use a large weapon, I dont need to have advanced knowledge/skills of a smaller version of that gun to improve in my use of the large that I know how to use. Please fix the skill pre-requisites for the specilization skills.
ElricUK	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:28:00 - [50] Im sorry but if I know how to use a large weapon, I dont need to have advanced knowledge/skills of a smaller version of that gun to improve in my use of the large that I know how to use. Please fix the skill pre-requisites for the specilization skills.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:33:00 - [51] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 01/09/2004 17:34:54 Originally by: olyyy I disagree here: 1. The heavy requirements are necessary for the use of those turrets. They give quite a nice bonus, the skill add a bonus, the lvl5 in large hybrid gives a nice bonus too... Having small and medium hybrid lvl5 is like having lvl4 in minmatar frig and cruiser to be able to train for the battleship skill. The Sharpshooter lvl5 requirement is like for elite frigs: there is a main skill required (lvl5 in a race frig) and another skill necessary which has a link with the elite frig (evasive maneuvering lvl5 for interceptors). 2. However 2 skills shouldn't be required imo: small and medium Railgun Specialization. But that's just a matter of view. Admit that you're just too lazy to train up your skill I have no issue with training the level 5 small/medium/ large skills. I do have a problem with being forced to specialize in turrets I am probably not going to use. It's not a question of laziness. It's a question of asking yourself, "Why don't elite cruisers need interceptor level 5?" because, at the end of the day, that's equivalent to these turret specialization skills. Skills, in general, don't make sense a lot of the time. Tech II modules require less skills than their Tech I versions...except for turrets/damage related modules? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:33:00 - [52] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 01/09/2004 17:34:54 Originally by: olyyy I disagree here: 1. The heavy requirements are necessary for the use of those turrets. They give quite a nice bonus, the skill add a bonus, the lvl5 in large hybrid gives a nice bonus too... Having small and medium hybrid lvl5 is like having lvl4 in minmatar frig and cruiser to be able to train for the battleship skill. The Sharpshooter lvl5 requirement is like for elite frigs: there is a main skill required (lvl5 in a race frig) and another skill necessary which has a link with the elite frig (evasive maneuvering lvl5 for interceptors). 2. However 2 skills shouldn't be required imo: small and medium Railgun Specialization. But that's just a matter of view. Admit that you're just too lazy to train up your skill I have no issue with training the level 5 small/medium/ large skills. I do have a problem with being forced to specialize in turrets I am probably not going to use. It's not a question of laziness. It's a question of asking yourself, "Why don't elite cruisers need interceptor level 5?" because, at the end of the day, that's equivalent to these turret specialization skills. Skills, in general, don't make sense a lot of the time. Tech II modules require less skills than their Tech I versions...except for turrets/damage related modules? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
ActiveX	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:44:00 - [53] Well this works out for me since I plan to specialize in Small and Medium...guns, but if I just wanted to specialize in Large this would be a ridiculous treadmill... CCP is really reaching here. ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000
ActiveX	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:44:00 - [54] Well this works out for me since I plan to specialize in Small and Medium...guns, but if I just wanted to specialize in Large this would be a ridiculous treadmill... CCP is really reaching here. ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000
Meridius	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:45:00 - [55] I didn't agree at first. I always liked high training reqs for these so less people would have them. After reading Josh's points i see that i'm wrong, it is true that specializing in turrets you are not going to use is completely moot as well as penalizing battleship pilots. However, it does make sense to require some knowledge of small turrets to be able to master a medium or large type. Perhaps requiring lvl 4 small & lvl 4 medium would suffice? ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:45:00 - [56] I didn't agree at first. I always liked high training reqs for these so less people would have them. After reading Josh's points i see that i'm wrong, it is true that specializing in turrets you are not going to use is completely moot as well as penalizing battleship pilots. However, it does make sense to require some knowledge of small turrets to be able to master a medium or large type. Perhaps requiring lvl 4 small & lvl 4 medium would suffice? ________________________________________________________
Avon	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. lol, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was driving home Josh, it is a valid point. Maybe they should not be requirements, but I think there should be some type of bonus for having them all, or at least have the bigger gun bonus benefit in some way by from the level of the smaller ones. It would be sweet if the damage bonus stacked I think it's just a bit unfair that a person chosing to specialize in frigates/cruisers has less training time to get his specialization compared to a battleship pilot but then doesn't feel that specialized because every BS pilot has the same skills as him. Or... Small specialisation gives you a tracking bonus to all size turrets of that type. Medium gives a ROF bonus to all size turrets of that type Large gives you a damage bonus to all size turrets of that type. Stick those bonuses on top of the ones you would get anyway. Oh that would make it worth training them all :) ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Avon	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 01/09/2004 16:29:20 I don't agree. By that arguement you shouldn't need to train frigates to fly cruisers and then cruisers to fly battleships? Skill progression is a a good thing. Anyway, if it is easy to train then everyone will do it quickly - then it will be neither special or an advantage. The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. lol, I was actually thinking the same thing as I was driving home Josh, it is a valid point. Maybe they should not be requirements, but I think there should be some type of bonus for having them all, or at least have the bigger gun bonus benefit in some way by from the level of the smaller ones. It would be sweet if the damage bonus stacked I think it's just a bit unfair that a person chosing to specialize in frigates/cruisers has less training time to get his specialization compared to a battleship pilot but then doesn't feel that specialized because every BS pilot has the same skills as him. Or... Small specialisation gives you a tracking bonus to all size turrets of that type. Medium gives a ROF bonus to all size turrets of that type Large gives you a damage bonus to all size turrets of that type. Stick those bonuses on top of the ones you would get anyway. Oh that would make it worth training them all :) ______________________________________________ Never argue with idiots. They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience.
Artean	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:57:00 - [59] Totally agree to this. Think its rather strange they have designed the "specialization" ladder in this way. Perhaps a Dev respons to this matter is in order? ........ There is a fine line between gate camping and just standing by a gate, looking like an idiot...
Artean	Posted - 2004.09.01 17:57:00 - [60] Totally agree to this. Think its rather strange they have designed the "specialization" ladder in this way. Perhaps a Dev respons to this matter is in order? ........ There is a fine line between gate camping and just standing by a gate, looking like an idiot...
Jan Ors	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:06:00 - [61] I agree completely. ________ My chosen sig won't fit. Fah.
Jan Ors	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:06:00 - [62] I agree completely. ________ My chosen sig won't fit. Fah.
Nafri	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:21:00 - [63] signed Wanna fly with me?
Nafri	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:21:00 - [64] signed Wanna fly with me?
Tolkh	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:37:00 - [65] Something to consider though is that when you talk about specialisation you usually have a path that requires a sacrifice to reach the end. The idea being that not everyone will be willing to pay the price to specialise wich is the idea since it makes the people who did specialise, well "special" =) . So the question is, if they don't do it this way, what way can they do it by retaining the notion of a big enough sacrifice that not everyone wants to do this ? If every BS pilot takes these skills then there is simply no specialisation.
Tolkh	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:37:00 - [66] Something to consider though is that when you talk about specialisation you usually have a path that requires a sacrifice to reach the end. The idea being that not everyone will be willing to pay the price to specialise wich is the idea since it makes the people who did specialise, well "special" =) . So the question is, if they don't do it this way, what way can they do it by retaining the notion of a big enough sacrifice that not everyone wants to do this ? If every BS pilot takes these skills then there is simply no specialisation.
Ardor	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:39:00 - [67] I disagree. I understand your arguments and I think they are somehow valid. But... The big problem is a MMOG always needs new players. The new players dont want to play as cannonfodder for us vets. Surprise! If we make it too easy to gain specialization in large guns it would be 1.) not very specialized and 2.) the difference between newbies and vets will stay the same. The goal of a fair skillsystem (fair for noobs) is give them a chance to catch up while vets always have a small advantage. This advange of vets will decrease over time in effectivness but will not decrease in number of reached skillpoints. As long as both (the new player and the vet) are always training their skills the new player will always come closer in effectivness to a vet but he will never be able to become equal if both train the same skills. This is fair for noobs and rewarding the vets. The other options would be 1. make it too easy for vets to stay at the top which will be the death for Eve because no new player wants to join being cannonfodder forever. 2. skill cap for vets which I very much dislike. 3. a different and harder way for specialization. Example: you want to be specialized in large guns only. Ok, large blaster specialization is now a rank 16 skill. I like it the way it is now. To be able to specialize in T2 medium blaster you must be able to handle T2 small blaster etc. I dont see a problem here.
Ardor	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:39:00 - [68] I disagree. I understand your arguments and I think they are somehow valid. But... The big problem is a MMOG always needs new players. The new players dont want to play as cannonfodder for us vets. Surprise! If we make it too easy to gain specialization in large guns it would be 1.) not very specialized and 2.) the difference between newbies and vets will stay the same. The goal of a fair skillsystem (fair for noobs) is give them a chance to catch up while vets always have a small advantage. This advange of vets will decrease over time in effectivness but will not decrease in number of reached skillpoints. As long as both (the new player and the vet) are always training their skills the new player will always come closer in effectivness to a vet but he will never be able to become equal if both train the same skills. This is fair for noobs and rewarding the vets. The other options would be 1. make it too easy for vets to stay at the top which will be the death for Eve because no new player wants to join being cannonfodder forever. 2. skill cap for vets which I very much dislike. 3. a different and harder way for specialization. Example: you want to be specialized in large guns only. Ok, large blaster specialization is now a rank 16 skill. I like it the way it is now. To be able to specialize in T2 medium blaster you must be able to handle T2 small blaster etc. I dont see a problem here.
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:41:00 - [69] I think people are kinda missing the direction of the specialization. It's not specialization in Turret Size but rather in Turret Type. You specialize in blasters or railguns or beams or pulses not large, medium or small. It allows you to specialize at your fighting STYLE not you ship. The ship is sort of just a platform to support your style. That way you can be a great blaster pilot and someone else can be a great rail pilot. It makes sense that you would need to learn the lower level gun skills before you would be able to learn the higher level ones. So in that way it makes a lot more sense to be able to specialize in the type of turret rather than the size of turret. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:41:00 - [70] I think people are kinda missing the direction of the specialization. It's not specialization in Turret Size but rather in Turret Type. You specialize in blasters or railguns or beams or pulses not large, medium or small. It allows you to specialize at your fighting STYLE not you ship. The ship is sort of just a platform to support your style. That way you can be a great blaster pilot and someone else can be a great rail pilot. It makes sense that you would need to learn the lower level gun skills before you would be able to learn the higher level ones. So in that way it makes a lot more sense to be able to specialize in the type of turret rather than the size of turret. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:43:00 - [71] Two points from me. 1) Support cruisers the first of the elite cruisers don't need a elite frigate skill. Don't bet on others not requiring them. 2) You're specializing, not in a given turret such as large hybrid. You specialize in a given turret type, such as rails, autocannons, pulse lasers. Which follows the same linear progression the normal turrets do. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:43:00 - [72] Two points from me. 1) Support cruisers the first of the elite cruisers don't need a elite frigate skill. Don't bet on others not requiring them. 2) You're specializing, not in a given turret such as large hybrid. You specialize in a given turret type, such as rails, autocannons, pulse lasers. Which follows the same linear progression the normal turrets do. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:55:00 - [73] I want to specialize is large railguns. Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns? It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require. And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult? It should be a choice not a requirement. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 18:55:00 - [74] I want to specialize is large railguns. Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns? It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require. And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult? It should be a choice not a requirement. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Damajink	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:19:00 - [75] Specialisation
Damajink	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:19:00 - [76] Specialisation
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:23:00 - [77] Originally by: Damajink Specialisation It can be spelled both ways. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:23:00 - [78] Originally by: Damajink Specialisation It can be spelled both ways. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
DJTheBaron	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:25:00 - [79] Originally by: Joshua Calvert I want to specialize is large railguns. Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns? It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require. And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult? It should be a choice not a requirement. you need to train small to use medium, smal and medium to train large and its been that way for over a year, why does this suprise you and why are you complaining over diction __________________________________________________ Scum, your all scum.
DJTheBaron	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:25:00 - [80] Originally by: Joshua Calvert I want to specialize is large railguns. Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns? It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require. And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult? It should be a choice not a requirement. you need to train small to use medium, smal and medium to train large and its been that way for over a year, why does this suprise you and why are you complaining over diction __________________________________________________ Scum, your all scum.
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:35:00 - [81] Originally by: DJTheBaron Originally by: Joshua Calvert I want to specialize is large railguns. Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns? It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require. And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult? It should be a choice not a requirement. you need to train small to use medium, smal and medium to train large and its been that way for over a year, why does this suprise you and why are you complaining over diction Dude, can't you read? Or didn't you even bother to read the rest of the thread? sigh ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:35:00 - [82] Originally by: DJTheBaron Originally by: Joshua Calvert I want to specialize is large railguns. Why am I forced to specialize in small and medium railguns? It defeats the entire purpose of specialization when I'm forced to train skills I don't require. And, please, what is with the idea that specialization should be difficult? It should be a choice not a requirement. you need to train small to use medium, smal and medium to train large and its been that way for over a year, why does this suprise you and why are you complaining over diction Dude, can't you read? Or didn't you even bother to read the rest of the thread? sigh ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:43:00 - [83] Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:36 Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:17 What happens when CCP nerfs them, after people have had to invest 3.4 millions skillpoints, just to get them? I just plugged the numbers, and I'd need around 3 million skillpoints (I have 4.5m total) just to use Mega Pulse IIs. Considering that they each take an aditional 250mw of power grid to run, and only offer a 3.6 damage modifier and a range improvement, they are not worth dedicating three months of my training time, just to get a weapon that will be nerfed into oblivion by the time I can actually use it. Someone once said, "There is a difference between risk, and dousing oneself in deer blood, smacking a bear, and then saying, I'll just take what's coming my way." Harry Voyager
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:43:00 - [84] Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:36 Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:17 What happens when CCP nerfs them, after people have had to invest 3.4 millions skillpoints, just to get them? I just plugged the numbers, and I'd need around 3 million skillpoints (I have 4.5m total) just to use Mega Pulse IIs. Considering that they each take an aditional 250mw of power grid to run, and only offer a 3.6 damage modifier and a range improvement, they are not worth dedicating three months of my training time, just to get a weapon that will be nerfed into oblivion by the time I can actually use it. Someone once said, "There is a difference between risk, and dousing oneself in deer blood, smacking a bear, and then saying, I'll just take what's coming my way." Harry Voyager
Tamur	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:51:00 - [85] Just a thought here, but forget for 1 minute that the skills are called 'Specialization' skills. They are simply the required skills that enable you to use the new Tech II turrets. They could be called 'Tech II Turret Skills' - so the feeling of being 'special' is not really a factor. When you wanted to use large turrets you had to train small ones, then medium ones to enable the use of large ones - ok its a bit of a broader scale as the Tech II turrets are already clasified as 'small, medium and large' but having to train the skills up in this way kinda builds up to the excitement of being able to use them no? So having to train the Tech II turret skills in this way is simply keeping the manor in way turrets are trained the same, only I will agree that the pre-requisite skills are rather high!
Tamur	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:51:00 - [86] Just a thought here, but forget for 1 minute that the skills are called 'Specialization' skills. They are simply the required skills that enable you to use the new Tech II turrets. They could be called 'Tech II Turret Skills' - so the feeling of being 'special' is not really a factor. When you wanted to use large turrets you had to train small ones, then medium ones to enable the use of large ones - ok its a bit of a broader scale as the Tech II turrets are already clasified as 'small, medium and large' but having to train the skills up in this way kinda builds up to the excitement of being able to use them no? So having to train the Tech II turret skills in this way is simply keeping the manor in way turrets are trained the same, only I will agree that the pre-requisite skills are rather high!
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Harry Voyager Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:36 Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:17 What happens when CCP nerfs them, after people have had to invest 3.4 millions skillpoints, just to get them? I just plugged the numbers, and I'd need around 3 million skillpoints (I have 4.5m total) just to use Mega Pulse IIs. Considering that they each take an aditional 250mw of power grid to run, and only offer a 3.6 damage modifier and a range improvement, they are not worth dedicating three months of my training time, just to get a weapon that will be nerfed into oblivion by the time I can actually use it. Someone once said, "There is a difference between risk, and dousing oneself in deer blood, smacking a bear, and then saying, I'll just take what's coming my way." Harry Voyager Thats why they need to change this now. Before people waste too much training in this. ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:53:00 - [88] Originally by: Harry Voyager Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:36 Edited by: Harry Voyager on 01/09/2004 19:47:17 What happens when CCP nerfs them, after people have had to invest 3.4 millions skillpoints, just to get them? I just plugged the numbers, and I'd need around 3 million skillpoints (I have 4.5m total) just to use Mega Pulse IIs. Considering that they each take an aditional 250mw of power grid to run, and only offer a 3.6 damage modifier and a range improvement, they are not worth dedicating three months of my training time, just to get a weapon that will be nerfed into oblivion by the time I can actually use it. Someone once said, "There is a difference between risk, and dousing oneself in deer blood, smacking a bear, and then saying, I'll just take what's coming my way." Harry Voyager Thats why they need to change this now. Before people waste too much training in this. ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Safronique	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:59:00 - [89] could someone explain too me please, but say you have a large projectile II fitted to your Tempest... How does the damage modifier work out? is it Base of gun, i.e. 6 with 5% increase per level of BS you have, plus 5% per level of large turret you have, plus any level of surgical strike you may have then plus 2% for the specialization skill? so e.g. if I had the following: Minmatar BS 5 Large Turret 5 Surgical Strike 5 Specialization 5 the dmg of a tech II 1400 would be someting like this: approx 11.9 ?? (my maths is total poo BTW so its probably way out lol)
Safronique	Posted - 2004.09.01 19:59:00 - [90] could someone explain too me please, but say you have a large projectile II fitted to your Tempest... How does the damage modifier work out? is it Base of gun, i.e. 6 with 5% increase per level of BS you have, plus 5% per level of large turret you have, plus any level of surgical strike you may have then plus 2% for the specialization skill? so e.g. if I had the following: Minmatar BS 5 Large Turret 5 Surgical Strike 5 Specialization 5 the dmg of a tech II 1400 would be someting like this: approx 11.9 ?? (my maths is total poo BTW so its probably way out lol)
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2004.09.01 20:05:00 - [91] I agree. I wouldn't want to see the skill times being cut, but it would be better if someone good at large guns didn't automatically have all the skills to be great at small and medium guns already when it comes to the specialisations. Instead of needing the previous gun skill at level 5, I'd have 3 new skills for, say, better tracking - small sharpshooter specialist, medium sharpshooter, etc. Then make those the pre-reqs for the damage specialisations. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2004.09.01 20:05:00 - [92] I agree. I wouldn't want to see the skill times being cut, but it would be better if someone good at large guns didn't automatically have all the skills to be great at small and medium guns already when it comes to the specialisations. Instead of needing the previous gun skill at level 5, I'd have 3 new skills for, say, better tracking - small sharpshooter specialist, medium sharpshooter, etc. Then make those the pre-reqs for the damage specialisations. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.09.01 20:21:00 - [93] Originally by: Safronique could someone explain too me please, but say you have a large projectile II fitted to your Tempest... How does the damage modifier work out? is it Base of gun, i.e. 6 with 5% increase per level of BS you have, plus 5% per level of large turret you have, plus any level of surgical strike you may have then plus 2% for the specialization skill? so e.g. if I had the following: Minmatar BS 5 Large Turret 5 Surgical Strike 5 Specialization 5 the dmg of a tech II 1400 would be someting like this: approx 11.9 ?? (my maths is total poo BTW so its probably way out lol) Remember, there are people who have those skills, aside from Spec 5, who are now switching to lasers, as Projectiles are now so useless. That is what I am talking about. When the nerf hammer comes down, it doesn't matter how good a Tech II item is on paper, it will be rendered useless, and all skill points invested in that skill will be wasted. Harry Voyager
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.09.01 20:21:00 - [94] Originally by: Safronique could someone explain too me please, but say you have a large projectile II fitted to your Tempest... How does the damage modifier work out? is it Base of gun, i.e. 6 with 5% increase per level of BS you have, plus 5% per level of large turret you have, plus any level of surgical strike you may have then plus 2% for the specialization skill? so e.g. if I had the following: Minmatar BS 5 Large Turret 5 Surgical Strike 5 Specialization 5 the dmg of a tech II 1400 would be someting like this: approx 11.9 ?? (my maths is total poo BTW so its probably way out lol) Remember, there are people who have those skills, aside from Spec 5, who are now switching to lasers, as Projectiles are now so useless. That is what I am talking about. When the nerf hammer comes down, it doesn't matter how good a Tech II item is on paper, it will be rendered useless, and all skill points invested in that skill will be wasted. Harry Voyager
Jocca Quinn	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:05:00 - [95] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 3 Sharpshooter 3 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 3 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 4 Sharpshooter 4 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 4 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Something along those lines seems more suited to REAL specialization. If that leaves too little training time, then up the rank of the specialization skill. I cannot agree more. THIS is specialisation, not the "get the small then the medium then the large" that exists at this moment. JQ none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free
Jocca Quinn	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:05:00 - [96] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 3 Sharpshooter 3 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 3 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 4 Sharpshooter 4 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 4 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Something along those lines seems more suited to REAL specialization. If that leaves too little training time, then up the rank of the specialization skill. I cannot agree more. THIS is specialisation, not the "get the small then the medium then the large" that exists at this moment. JQ none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free
Blacklight	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:36:00 - [97] Agreed. It doesn't make sense the way it is and does penalise people for flying larger ships. Another step in the "let's get everyone into frigates" campaign. Eve Blacklight Style
Blacklight	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:36:00 - [98] Agreed. It doesn't make sense the way it is and does penalise people for flying larger ships. Another step in the "let's get everyone into frigates" campaign. Eve Blacklight Style
Speknek	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:43:00 - [99] Agreed Current requirements would be fine if the BS was still the uber ship. This is not specialisation but another tree of required skills. Should be changed. I would change the requirements to: Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization There's no reason to have less requirements for small guns vs large guns. Its specialisation in one gun type and size, should have the same requirements. Elite frigates aren't cheap frigs, but very powerfull and usefull ships that require (player) skill to fly, so i dont see a reason to lower the skill requirements for them, only because the guns are smaller.
Speknek	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:43:00 - [100] Agreed Current requirements would be fine if the BS was still the uber ship. This is not specialisation but another tree of required skills. Should be changed. I would change the requirements to: Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization There's no reason to have less requirements for small guns vs large guns. Its specialisation in one gun type and size, should have the same requirements. Elite frigates aren't cheap frigs, but very powerfull and usefull ships that require (player) skill to fly, so i dont see a reason to lower the skill requirements for them, only because the guns are smaller.
KIAPieman	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:52:00 - [101] Signed --------------------------------------------------------
KIAPieman	Posted - 2004.09.01 22:52:00 - [102] Signed --------------------------------------------------------
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2004.09.01 23:39:00 - [103] /me agrees with Gariuys & DJTheBaron JC: Haven't you quit yet (and by quit I of course mean EVE and not whining) MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2004.09.01 23:39:00 - [104] /me agrees with Gariuys & DJTheBaron JC: Haven't you quit yet (and by quit I of course mean EVE and not whining) MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Selim	Posted - 2004.09.01 23:40:00 - [105] Originally by: Speknek Agreed Current requirements would be fine if the BS was still the uber ship. This is not specialisation but another tree of required skills. Should be changed. I would change the requirements to: Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization There's no reason to have less requirements for small guns vs large guns. Its specialisation in one gun type and size, should have the same requirements. Elite frigates aren't cheap frigs, but very powerfull and usefull ships that require (player) skill to fly, so i dont see a reason to lower the skill requirements for them, only because the guns are smaller.
Selim	Posted - 2004.09.01 23:40:00 - [106] Originally by: Speknek Agreed Current requirements would be fine if the BS was still the uber ship. This is not specialisation but another tree of required skills. Should be changed. I would change the requirements to: Small Weapon specialization should require the following skills: Small Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5. Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for short-range specialization Medium Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Medium Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for the long-range specialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization Large Weapon Specialization should require the following skills: Large Hybrid or Projectile or Laser Level 5 Gunnery 5 Sharpshooter 5 for long-range secialization/Motion Prediction 5 for the short-range specialization There's no reason to have less requirements for small guns vs large guns. Its specialisation in one gun type and size, should have the same requirements. Elite frigates aren't cheap frigs, but very powerfull and usefull ships that require (player) skill to fly, so i dont see a reason to lower the skill requirements for them, only because the guns are smaller.
Claire Scott	Posted - 2004.09.01 23:42:00 - [107] Totally disagree. You're a nub. -E If you're not running with the pack, you're prey . . .
Claire Scott	Posted - 2004.09.01 23:42:00 - [108] Totally disagree. You're a nub. -E If you're not running with the pack, you're prey . . .
Procion	Posted - 2004.09.02 00:01:00 - [109] i bet tech 2 missile launchers have another retarded skill training set as pre req's aswell, probably another 90 days. its either turrets ,missiles or tech 2 ships which will you specialize in
Procion	Posted - 2004.09.02 00:01:00 - [110] i bet tech 2 missile launchers have another retarded skill training set as pre req's aswell, probably another 90 days. its either turrets ,missiles or tech 2 ships which will you specialize in
The Enslaver	Posted - 2004.09.02 00:27:00 - [111] I agree that you shouldn't have to train up in small or medium to a high level, at least not as high as this, to train large weapon specialization. However, the skill requirements should be just as severe for the large turrets, but they should require other skills at level five than they do at current. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2004.09.02 00:27:00 - [112] I agree that you shouldn't have to train up in small or medium to a high level, at least not as high as this, to train large weapon specialization. However, the skill requirements should be just as severe for the large turrets, but they should require other skills at level five than they do at current. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Amarr Agent	Posted - 2004.09.02 00:40:00 - [113] Originally by: Nafri signed Nafri's sig is by far the worst waste of forum space yet. 99% crap 1% content.
Amarr Agent	Posted - 2004.09.02 00:40:00 - [114] Originally by: Nafri signed Nafri's sig is by far the worst waste of forum space yet. 99% crap 1% content.
Centauro	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:03:00 - [115] I do not agree you don't need small/med turrets in order to train large. Sounds familiar? yes, prior , if you wanted to train large turret you have have to train small and medium to lvl 4 in order to train next one. Plain and simple. P.S.: I have small and large to lvl 5 and training medium to 5 too, wish they remove this, but they will not that's why I'm trianing medium.
Centauro	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:03:00 - [116] I do not agree you don't need small/med turrets in order to train large. Sounds familiar? yes, prior , if you wanted to train large turret you have have to train small and medium to lvl 4 in order to train next one. Plain and simple. P.S.: I have small and large to lvl 5 and training medium to 5 too, wish they remove this, but they will not that's why I'm trianing medium.
Gripen	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:22:00 - [117] Agreed
Gripen	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:22:00 - [118] Agreed
Inanna Sumer	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:24:00 - [119] cent, that's in there because there's a logical progression in training, ie you need to know the basics of how smaller weapons work, before progressing to their larger counterparts. as this is a specialization skill we're talking here- why would i want to know all the little quirks and such associated with small blasters- when what i really want to know are all the quirks and tips of a large blaster weapon. progression works fine for learning the basics, but specialisations should stand alone imo.
Inanna Sumer	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:24:00 - [120] cent, that's in there because there's a logical progression in training, ie you need to know the basics of how smaller weapons work, before progressing to their larger counterparts. as this is a specialization skill we're talking here- why would i want to know all the little quirks and such associated with small blasters- when what i really want to know are all the quirks and tips of a large blaster weapon. progression works fine for learning the basics, but specialisations should stand alone imo.
Khali Nephtys	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:47:00 - [121] Edited by: Khali Nephtys on 02/09/2004 01:49:40 I agree with Josh on this one, he has obviously put some thought into this. It certainly does fly in the face of specialisation if you assume that we are going to start branching off with the new ship types. The current specialisation skills seem to be stuck in the old Battleships are best loop, when it is becoming clear this is not the case any longer. Battleships are better at certain tasks granted, but there are also certain tasks that the new frigates and cruisers can do better than a BS. So penalising those who wish to focus their skills in BS, is working on the assumption that to specialise in large turrets for instance, means you are automatically better than someone who specialised in small turrets and flies an interceptor. This of course is not the case, so these skills are based on a false assumption. By all means make the requirements for the skills high, but at least make the requirements fit the model of the ship class they are specialised for! Khabs am pehkt...........seize the stars.
Khali Nephtys	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:47:00 - [122] Edited by: Khali Nephtys on 02/09/2004 01:49:40 I agree with Josh on this one, he has obviously put some thought into this. It certainly does fly in the face of specialisation if you assume that we are going to start branching off with the new ship types. The current specialisation skills seem to be stuck in the old Battleships are best loop, when it is becoming clear this is not the case any longer. Battleships are better at certain tasks granted, but there are also certain tasks that the new frigates and cruisers can do better than a BS. So penalising those who wish to focus their skills in BS, is working on the assumption that to specialise in large turrets for instance, means you are automatically better than someone who specialised in small turrets and flies an interceptor. This of course is not the case, so these skills are based on a false assumption. By all means make the requirements for the skills high, but at least make the requirements fit the model of the ship class they are specialised for! Khabs am pehkt...........seize the stars.
olyyy	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:51:00 - [123] I'm sorry but the bonus you get from those new guns justify high skill requirements: -> +20% firepower with the gun -> +5% dmg with large hybrid lvl5 -> +2% dmg per lvl in specialization skill Since those damages are added to each others... I mean let's be serious, you can expect something like at lest +30% firepower... So yeah if you are flying an arma with that kind of guns that's a pretty quick OMGWTFPWNage, especially since dmg mods will influence your firepower after you trained skills... So it's not 30% you get... It's even more... Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 )
olyyy	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:51:00 - [124] I'm sorry but the bonus you get from those new guns justify high skill requirements: -> +20% firepower with the gun -> +5% dmg with large hybrid lvl5 -> +2% dmg per lvl in specialization skill Since those damages are added to each others... I mean let's be serious, you can expect something like at lest +30% firepower... So yeah if you are flying an arma with that kind of guns that's a pretty quick OMGWTFPWNage, especially since dmg mods will influence your firepower after you trained skills... So it's not 30% you get... It's even more... Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 )
Khali Nephtys	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:54:00 - [125] You seem to have missed the point Olyyy. I don't think the issue is whether the requirements should be high or not, the point was why be forced to train specialisations that you won't be using/needing? Khabs am pehkt...........seize the stars.
Khali Nephtys	Posted - 2004.09.02 01:54:00 - [126] You seem to have missed the point Olyyy. I don't think the issue is whether the requirements should be high or not, the point was why be forced to train specialisations that you won't be using/needing? Khabs am pehkt...........seize the stars.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2004.09.02 02:31:00 - [127] Disagree. You're specializing in a gun type, not a size class. Railgun, Blaster, Autocannon vs Small, Medium, Large is quite different. It makes sense that if you wanna know how to use the tech 2 big rails, that you should have to know how to use the tech 2 small rails first. Just like if you wanted to fly gallente battleships really well, you need to know how to fly the frigs and cruisers really well first. Skill progression IS a good thing. Battleships are as end-game as it gets, and tech 2 large guns should NOT be for some pansy ass miners or producers. Let them keep with their tech 1, but if you've devoted your character to pure combat, and have the gunnery skills to back it up, it shouldn't be a problem. hf, gg, gl _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2004.09.02 02:31:00 - [128] Disagree. You're specializing in a gun type, not a size class. Railgun, Blaster, Autocannon vs Small, Medium, Large is quite different. It makes sense that if you wanna know how to use the tech 2 big rails, that you should have to know how to use the tech 2 small rails first. Just like if you wanted to fly gallente battleships really well, you need to know how to fly the frigs and cruisers really well first. Skill progression IS a good thing. Battleships are as end-game as it gets, and tech 2 large guns should NOT be for some pansy ass miners or producers. Let them keep with their tech 1, but if you've devoted your character to pure combat, and have the gunnery skills to back it up, it shouldn't be a problem. hf, gg, gl _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Altai Saker	Posted - 2004.09.02 03:24:00 - [129] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Disagree. You're specializing in a gun type, not a size class. Railgun, Blaster, Autocannon vs Small, Medium, Large is quite different. It makes sense that if you wanna know how to use the tech 2 big rails, that you should have to know how to use the tech 2 small rails first. Just like if you wanted to fly gallente battleships really well, you need to know how to fly the frigs and cruisers really well first. Skill progression IS a good thing. Battleships are as end-game as it gets, and tech 2 large guns should NOT be for some pansy ass miners or producers. Let them keep with their tech 1, but if you've devoted your character to pure combat, and have the gunnery skills to back it up, it shouldn't be a problem. hf, gg, gl quoted for emphasis.
Altai Saker	Posted - 2004.09.02 03:24:00 - [130] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Disagree. You're specializing in a gun type, not a size class. Railgun, Blaster, Autocannon vs Small, Medium, Large is quite different. It makes sense that if you wanna know how to use the tech 2 big rails, that you should have to know how to use the tech 2 small rails first. Just like if you wanted to fly gallente battleships really well, you need to know how to fly the frigs and cruisers really well first. Skill progression IS a good thing. Battleships are as end-game as it gets, and tech 2 large guns should NOT be for some pansy ass miners or producers. Let them keep with their tech 1, but if you've devoted your character to pure combat, and have the gunnery skills to back it up, it shouldn't be a problem. hf, gg, gl quoted for emphasis.
DarK	Posted - 2004.09.02 03:35:00 - [131] Originally by: Amarr Agent Originally by: Nafri signed Nafri's sig is by far the worst waste of forum space yet. 99% crap 1% content. Its called attention seeking:) And I agree with DigitalCommunist on this one, it is a good thing, even though I find with all that training, tech2 weapons should have the same fitting requirements as the tech1.
DarK	Posted - 2004.09.02 03:35:00 - [132] Originally by: Amarr Agent Originally by: Nafri signed Nafri's sig is by far the worst waste of forum space yet. 99% crap 1% content. Its called attention seeking:) And I agree with DigitalCommunist on this one, it is a good thing, even though I find with all that training, tech2 weapons should have the same fitting requirements as the tech1.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.09.02 04:00:00 - [133] Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Other than that I've shoved all the skills I need to fire a tech 2 425 railgun decently and it's... Sharpshooter 4 to 5 - 10d 20h (in training now) Small Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 6d 9h Medium Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 19d 3h Large Hybrid Turret 4 to 5 - 27d 2h Small Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 3d 11h Medium Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 5d 19h Large Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 9d 7h Total - 82d 1h (November 23rd 2pm) A bit harsh because even though I have plonked myself on the path of large railguns and nothing else, I will be lucky to see much benefit from tech 2 425's over tech 1 as the stats stand at the moment. I'm not saying I should be a super killing machine, but I'd like a bit more bang for my '3 month training time' buck. Agreed with Josh btw.
Kerosene	Posted - 2004.09.02 04:00:00 - [134] Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Other than that I've shoved all the skills I need to fire a tech 2 425 railgun decently and it's... Sharpshooter 4 to 5 - 10d 20h (in training now) Small Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 6d 9h Medium Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 19d 3h Large Hybrid Turret 4 to 5 - 27d 2h Small Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 3d 11h Medium Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 5d 19h Large Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 9d 7h Total - 82d 1h (November 23rd 2pm) A bit harsh because even though I have plonked myself on the path of large railguns and nothing else, I will be lucky to see much benefit from tech 2 425's over tech 1 as the stats stand at the moment. I'm not saying I should be a super killing machine, but I'd like a bit more bang for my '3 month training time' buck. Agreed with Josh btw.
Koris	Posted - 2004.09.02 04:14:00 - [135] I agree with josh, it's just a obvious change ccp made among many others to artifically extend the game's life. It would make more sense for gunnery skills be required to a gunnery skill of the same class not lower classes otherwise it's just another grind. Maybe even a engineering and/or electronic skill as well.
Koris	Posted - 2004.09.02 04:14:00 - [136] I agree with josh, it's just a obvious change ccp made among many others to artifically extend the game's life. It would make more sense for gunnery skills be required to a gunnery skill of the same class not lower classes otherwise it's just another grind. Maybe even a engineering and/or electronic skill as well.
EviL ElecTricIaN	Posted - 2004.09.02 04:38:00 - [137] 100% signed If you want large gun specialisation, train large stuff. Leave the small stuff to us frigate pilots.
EviL ElecTricIaN	Posted - 2004.09.02 04:38:00 - [138] 100% signed If you want large gun specialisation, train large stuff. Leave the small stuff to us frigate pilots.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.02 06:27:00 - [139] Originally by: The Enslaver I agree that you shouldn't have to train up in small or medium to a high level, at least not as high as this, to train large weapon specialization. However, the skill requirements should be just as severe for the large turrets, but they should require other skills at level five than they do at current. Yeah, I son't mind being forced to train sharpshooter 5 or rapid firing 5 or whatever because those will ultimately improve my guns. Specializing in small or medium rails will do nothing for my large railguns. MOO: No, I'm staying just to ** you off. Claire Scott: To the AltMobile? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.02 06:27:00 - [140] Originally by: The Enslaver I agree that you shouldn't have to train up in small or medium to a high level, at least not as high as this, to train large weapon specialization. However, the skill requirements should be just as severe for the large turrets, but they should require other skills at level five than they do at current. Yeah, I son't mind being forced to train sharpshooter 5 or rapid firing 5 or whatever because those will ultimately improve my guns. Specializing in small or medium rails will do nothing for my large railguns. MOO: No, I'm staying just to ** you off. Claire Scott: To the AltMobile? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!**
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.02 06:36:00 - [141] Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Other than that I've shoved all the skills I need to fire a tech 2 425 railgun decently and it's... Sharpshooter 4 to 5 - 10d 20h (in training now) Small Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 6d 9h Medium Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 19d 3h Large Hybrid Turret 4 to 5 - 27d 2h Small Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 3d 11h Medium Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 5d 19h Large Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 9d 7h Total - 82d 1h (November 23rd 2pm) A bit harsh because even though I have plonked myself on the path of large railguns and nothing else, I will be lucky to see much benefit from tech 2 425's over tech 1 as the stats stand at the moment. I'm not saying I should be a super killing machine, but I'd like a bit more bang for my '3 month training time' buck. Agreed with Josh btw. Yeah, 3 months training and most of that training will be spent on gun sizes I'm rarely going to use. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.02 06:36:00 - [142] Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Other than that I've shoved all the skills I need to fire a tech 2 425 railgun decently and it's... Sharpshooter 4 to 5 - 10d 20h (in training now) Small Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 6d 9h Medium Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 19d 3h Large Hybrid Turret 4 to 5 - 27d 2h Small Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 3d 11h Medium Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 5d 19h Large Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 9d 7h Total - 82d 1h (November 23rd 2pm) A bit harsh because even though I have plonked myself on the path of large railguns and nothing else, I will be lucky to see much benefit from tech 2 425's over tech 1 as the stats stand at the moment. I'm not saying I should be a super killing machine, but I'd like a bit more bang for my '3 month training time' buck. Agreed with Josh btw. Yeah, 3 months training and most of that training will be spent on gun sizes I'm rarely going to use. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Necrologic	Posted - 2004.09.02 06:45:00 - [143] i think Josh, as always (atleast that i've seen) is right. _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.
Necrologic	Posted - 2004.09.02 06:45:00 - [144] i think Josh, as always (atleast that i've seen) is right. _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.
Serocca	Posted - 2004.09.02 07:27:00 - [145] Edited by: Serocca on 02/09/2004 07:29:22 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Where exactly did you read about this ? If that's true ,then the tech1 named guns will deal more damage then their tech2 counterparts, at least with the crystals we have now. ( same damage multiplier but 10% skill bonus instead of 25 % .. ) I hope you're wrong .
Serocca	Posted - 2004.09.02 07:27:00 - [146] Edited by: Serocca on 02/09/2004 07:29:22 Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Where exactly did you read about this ? If that's true ,then the tech1 named guns will deal more damage then their tech2 counterparts, at least with the crystals we have now. ( same damage multiplier but 10% skill bonus instead of 25 % .. ) I hope you're wrong .
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2004.09.02 08:34:00 - [147] Sorry this is complete bollox It follow the same pattern as EVERYTHING else does in the game, and dont hear no one complaining about that. As said b4, ur becoming specialised in a gun class, not a size class. And to use the large stuff, u have to train the small stuff first anyway. Frig ---> Cruiser ---> Battleship small hybrid ---> medium hybrid ---> large hybrid Its the same pattern ffs. What exactly is the problem? U want to be able to use the tech2 guns asap really and dont want to have to train the other skillz. Well as far as im concerned, u can shove it, cos this is REAL specialisation, get used to it. If all u needed was large gun 5, gunnery 5 and motion pred/sharpshooter 5 just about every veteran would have access to them straight away. The way they have done it is so that its quite possible that the 6 or so month players can still get the skillz, but the vets still get the benefit. Either way, its gonna take any1 quite a while to train for them People ask for specialisation, CCP give it, loads of people b!tch and whinge about. I mean ffs people, come on. This is the way it should be, dont change it, please And flame me all u want. I have seen this posted loads of times and i still think every1 is just taking the real p!ss cos this is what we asked for, we got it, and now people whine about it. Jeez P.S. i dont have access to them either so i aint saying this ok cos it doesnt affect me cos it does. Forums: Sharks - MC
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2004.09.02 08:34:00 - [148] Sorry this is complete bollox It follow the same pattern as EVERYTHING else does in the game, and dont hear no one complaining about that. As said b4, ur becoming specialised in a gun class, not a size class. And to use the large stuff, u have to train the small stuff first anyway. Frig ---> Cruiser ---> Battleship small hybrid ---> medium hybrid ---> large hybrid Its the same pattern ffs. What exactly is the problem? U want to be able to use the tech2 guns asap really and dont want to have to train the other skillz. Well as far as im concerned, u can shove it, cos this is REAL specialisation, get used to it. If all u needed was large gun 5, gunnery 5 and motion pred/sharpshooter 5 just about every veteran would have access to them straight away. The way they have done it is so that its quite possible that the 6 or so month players can still get the skillz, but the vets still get the benefit. Either way, its gonna take any1 quite a while to train for them People ask for specialisation, CCP give it, loads of people b!tch and whinge about. I mean ffs people, come on. This is the way it should be, dont change it, please And flame me all u want. I have seen this posted loads of times and i still think every1 is just taking the real p!ss cos this is what we asked for, we got it, and now people whine about it. Jeez P.S. i dont have access to them either so i aint saying this ok cos it doesnt affect me cos it does. Forums: Sharks - MC
Speknek	Posted - 2004.09.02 09:11:00 - [149] Originally by: Eyeshadow Sorry this is complete bollox Frig ---> Cruiser ---> Battleship small hybrid ---> medium hybrid ---> large hybrid Elite frigate -> elite cruiser -> elite battleship doesnt exist, so why do it for turrets? Thats specialisation, this is just another required skill tree.
Speknek	Posted - 2004.09.02 09:11:00 - [150] Originally by: Eyeshadow Sorry this is complete bollox Frig ---> Cruiser ---> Battleship small hybrid ---> medium hybrid ---> large hybrid Elite frigate -> elite cruiser -> elite battleship doesnt exist, so why do it for turrets? Thats specialisation, this is just another required skill tree.
Redwolf	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:16:00 - [151] Signed This makes me mad. :/
Redwolf	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:16:00 - [152] Signed This makes me mad. :/
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:25:00 - [153] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Linky See the above image. It shows the skill requirements to train for Large RailGun Specialization. A definition of specialization: Main Entry: speÀcialÀiÀzaÀtion Pronunciation: "spe-sh(&-)l&-'zA-sh&n Function: noun 1 : a making or becoming specialized 2 a : structural adaptation of a body part to a particular function or of an organism for life in a particular environment b : a body part or an organism adapted by specialization Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Surely it would be a better idea to make the requirements only Level 5 in the associated weapon types rather than force battleship pilots to train up 2 further specializations just so we can gain an advantage in our chosen weapon. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. I totally agree. The current training-sheme implies that frigates are in some kind 'lesser' combat ships which according to TomB's balancing efforts isn't the case. Logical consequence should be the same amount of skillpoints trained at the same ranks for each given specialization... IMO. Mai's Idealog
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:25:00 - [154] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Linky See the above image. It shows the skill requirements to train for Large RailGun Specialization. A definition of specialization: Main Entry: speÀcialÀiÀzaÀtion Pronunciation: "spe-sh(&-)l&-'zA-sh&n Function: noun 1 : a making or becoming specialized 2 a : structural adaptation of a body part to a particular function or of an organism for life in a particular environment b : a body part or an organism adapted by specialization Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Surely it would be a better idea to make the requirements only Level 5 in the associated weapon types rather than force battleship pilots to train up 2 further specializations just so we can gain an advantage in our chosen weapon. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. I totally agree. The current training-sheme implies that frigates are in some kind 'lesser' combat ships which according to TomB's balancing efforts isn't the case. Logical consequence should be the same amount of skillpoints trained at the same ranks for each given specialization... IMO. Mai's Idealog
Rezi Bogdanov	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:34:00 - [155] Well i agree with Joshes' point here. Having to specialize in small guns to be able to specialize in large guns just does not make sense. Some people have argued that "of course you need to learn small weapons first before you can learn to use large ones", as it was some kind of obvious fact. I disagree completely. Do i need to shoot alot with an UZI to become a good artilleryman? Will being a marksman with my Barret help me hit better with my tank cannon? If im an elite bicyclist, will it make me a great fighter pilot? I know that in some areas its necessary to learn some basic skills first in order to learn more advanced later. Thats pretty fine with me as in the basic learning order for S, M, and L guns. But having to spend lots of time to specilize in a completely different area, just to be able to learn the skill you really want makes absolutely no sense to me. Also i think it might create more of a skill gap between the vets who really spent an enourmous time to get ALL the specializations (just to get at the one they really want), and the beginners who have to wade through a **load of skills they dont really want until they can finally try to get any kind of specialization. Of course the large weapon specializations should take a long time to train, and require some hefty prerequisites, but this is just the wrong way. "Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines" General 'Buck' Turgidson, from Dr Strangelove*
Rezi Bogdanov	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:34:00 - [156] Well i agree with Joshes' point here. Having to specialize in small guns to be able to specialize in large guns just does not make sense. Some people have argued that "of course you need to learn small weapons first before you can learn to use large ones", as it was some kind of obvious fact. I disagree completely. Do i need to shoot alot with an UZI to become a good artilleryman? Will being a marksman with my Barret help me hit better with my tank cannon? If im an elite bicyclist, will it make me a great fighter pilot? I know that in some areas its necessary to learn some basic skills first in order to learn more advanced later. Thats pretty fine with me as in the basic learning order for S, M, and L guns. But having to spend lots of time to specilize in a completely different area, just to be able to learn the skill you really want makes absolutely no sense to me. Also i think it might create more of a skill gap between the vets who really spent an enourmous time to get ALL the specializations (just to get at the one they really want), and the beginners who have to wade through a **load of skills they dont really want until they can finally try to get any kind of specialization. Of course the large weapon specializations should take a long time to train, and require some hefty prerequisites, but this is just the wrong way. "Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines" General 'Buck' Turgidson, from Dr Strangelove*
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:50:00 - [157] After figuring the numbers, you only spend about a third of your skill points on wasted skills for large turret specialization. In order to use Large Pulse Laser II's, you must have 3.4 million skill points dedicated to that, of which 1.4 million skill points are dedicated to small and medium turrets. But, you'll have lvl 4 Small and Medium Turret specialization, and you will have 2.6 million skill points invested in a specific weapon type, with 365,000 skill points invested in a weapon subtype. All of this for a 2% per level increase, and the ability to use Tech II weapons. Note: While Tech II weapons have 20% improved damage, they also have 10% increased requirements, thus the effective improvement is only around 10% effective. Harry Voyager
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.09.02 11:50:00 - [158] After figuring the numbers, you only spend about a third of your skill points on wasted skills for large turret specialization. In order to use Large Pulse Laser II's, you must have 3.4 million skill points dedicated to that, of which 1.4 million skill points are dedicated to small and medium turrets. But, you'll have lvl 4 Small and Medium Turret specialization, and you will have 2.6 million skill points invested in a specific weapon type, with 365,000 skill points invested in a weapon subtype. All of this for a 2% per level increase, and the ability to use Tech II weapons. Note: While Tech II weapons have 20% improved damage, they also have 10% increased requirements, thus the effective improvement is only around 10% effective. Harry Voyager
Nums	Posted - 2004.09.02 12:19:00 - [159] One of my old characters used to fly only amarr ships and only use amarr weapons. I wanted to keep him pure so he would fit into pie perfectly. My view is that whilst i am against the skills progression as stated at the beginning of this discussion, i would like to see more of characters training towards there own race skills. At present the majority of people fly more than one races ship. Which to me is strange. Amarr for amarr and minmatar for minmatar.....This way specialisation will be much quicker
Nums	Posted - 2004.09.02 12:19:00 - [160] One of my old characters used to fly only amarr ships and only use amarr weapons. I wanted to keep him pure so he would fit into pie perfectly. My view is that whilst i am against the skills progression as stated at the beginning of this discussion, i would like to see more of characters training towards there own race skills. At present the majority of people fly more than one races ship. Which to me is strange. Amarr for amarr and minmatar for minmatar.....This way specialisation will be much quicker
Rthor	Posted - 2004.09.02 12:28:00 - [161] Originally by: Joshua Calvert The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. Shh. Be quiet before its too late.
Rthor	Posted - 2004.09.02 12:28:00 - [162] Originally by: Joshua Calvert The difference here is that I don't need Interceptor 5 (a specialized frigate skill) to train up for Cruiser Level 1. Shh. Be quiet before its too late.
Andrew Redburn	Posted - 2004.09.02 13:07:00 - [163] The best reason I see for this skill training tree is that people can not use Tech II guns easily. They shall not be common to all people, just like other Tech II or elite stuff. Since I focused for some time on PvP-Skills, I have pretty much of all prerequirements out of the box and so do lot of other PvPers as well. Now if it was just one of the skills to train, you could get Tech II guns in a few hours and be maxed in a few weeks. Lots of people have already ALL gunnery skills at lv4 or 5, so it is necessary to have new skills as prereqs. The only major problem I see is cloning...if I add 3.4M to my skillpoints and think of missle specialisations I will want as well...
Andrew Redburn	Posted - 2004.09.02 13:07:00 - [164] The best reason I see for this skill training tree is that people can not use Tech II guns easily. They shall not be common to all people, just like other Tech II or elite stuff. Since I focused for some time on PvP-Skills, I have pretty much of all prerequirements out of the box and so do lot of other PvPers as well. Now if it was just one of the skills to train, you could get Tech II guns in a few hours and be maxed in a few weeks. Lots of people have already ALL gunnery skills at lv4 or 5, so it is necessary to have new skills as prereqs. The only major problem I see is cloning...if I add 3.4M to my skillpoints and think of missle specialisations I will want as well...
Zaque Zundu	Posted - 2004.09.02 14:35:00 - [165] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Other than that I've shoved all the skills I need to fire a tech 2 425 railgun decently and it's... Sharpshooter 4 to 5 - 10d 20h (in training now) Small Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 6d 9h Medium Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 19d 3h Large Hybrid Turret 4 to 5 - 27d 2h Small Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 3d 11h Medium Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 5d 19h Large Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 9d 7h Total - 82d 1h (November 23rd 2pm) A bit harsh because even though I have plonked myself on the path of large railguns and nothing else, I will be lucky to see much benefit from tech 2 425's over tech 1 as the stats stand at the moment. I'm not saying I should be a super killing machine, but I'd like a bit more bang for my '3 month training time' buck. Agreed with Josh btw. Yeah, 3 months training and most of that training will be spent on gun sizes I'm rarely going to use. Well its really just over 1/3 of the training which is "wasted". But I have to agree with you Josh that its too much. But I don't really expect them to change it now :(. I also hope that the tech 2 guns will be a lot cheaper than most of the other tech 2 mods. But I don't think that will be the case either. Zaque Zundu Without chemistry there would be no life. Without research we would know nothing. Without Eve we would all be lost.
Zaque Zundu	Posted - 2004.09.02 14:35:00 - [166] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Kerosene Edited by: Kerosene on 02/09/2004 04:10:49 Unless misinformed, It's a bit of a bugger that Large Hybrid 5 has no impact on tech 2 large hybrid weapons though.. Other than that I've shoved all the skills I need to fire a tech 2 425 railgun decently and it's... Sharpshooter 4 to 5 - 10d 20h (in training now) Small Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 6d 9h Medium Hybrid Turret 3 to 5 - 19d 3h Large Hybrid Turret 4 to 5 - 27d 2h Small Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 3d 11h Medium Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 5d 19h Large Railgun Specialisation 0 to 4 - 9d 7h Total - 82d 1h (November 23rd 2pm) A bit harsh because even though I have plonked myself on the path of large railguns and nothing else, I will be lucky to see much benefit from tech 2 425's over tech 1 as the stats stand at the moment. I'm not saying I should be a super killing machine, but I'd like a bit more bang for my '3 month training time' buck. Agreed with Josh btw. Yeah, 3 months training and most of that training will be spent on gun sizes I'm rarely going to use. Well its really just over 1/3 of the training which is "wasted". But I have to agree with you Josh that its too much. But I don't really expect them to change it now :(. I also hope that the tech 2 guns will be a lot cheaper than most of the other tech 2 mods. But I don't think that will be the case either. Zaque Zundu Without chemistry there would be no life. Without research we would know nothing. Without Eve we would all be lost.
Toran Mehtar	Posted - 2004.09.02 15:42:00 - [167] Josh got it right in his very first post when he described the skills as a misnomer. The way these skills have been implemented they are not specialisations at all. If they keep them like this then they may aswell just rename them as advanced small pulse laser or whatever. I don't really care about the massive skill requirements, what bothers me is that If I choose to specialise in frigates (which I would like to), then I won't feel specialised at all because every advanced char out there will have a small 'specialisation' skill. What's so special about it if everyone has got it ?
Toran Mehtar	Posted - 2004.09.02 15:42:00 - [168] Josh got it right in his very first post when he described the skills as a misnomer. The way these skills have been implemented they are not specialisations at all. If they keep them like this then they may aswell just rename them as advanced small pulse laser or whatever. I don't really care about the massive skill requirements, what bothers me is that If I choose to specialise in frigates (which I would like to), then I won't feel specialised at all because every advanced char out there will have a small 'specialisation' skill. What's so special about it if everyone has got it ?
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2004.09.02 16:29:00 - [169] Originally by: Toran Mehtar Josh got it right in his very first post when he described the skills as a misnomer. The way these skills have been implemented they are not specialisations at all. If they keep them like this then they may aswell just rename them as advanced small pulse laser or whatever. I don't really care about the massive skill requirements, what bothers me is that If I choose to specialise in frigates (which I would like to), then I won't feel specialised at all because every advanced char out there will have a small 'specialisation' skill. What's so special about it if everyone has got it ? dont really understand ur point here? Every advanced character in eve has the same skillz. Most fighters will all have gunnery at 4/5, with BS at 4/5. Industrial chars will have mining/refining and building all at 5 Do u honestly think there will ever be skillz that only u and a few other people will have? No chance m8y boy. Whatever skillz u train there will always be people with the same or better, get over it. I really do not understand peoples problems with the new skillz? U specialise in using rails or blasters or autocannons or pulselasers or whatever. not the actual size of the weapon. It will mean u have to make a choice which turret type u want to use. Ok, sop rails + blasters use a similar skill set, as do autocannons + artillery, BUT if it takes 3 months or so to train for rail specialisation skill why would u train for the artillery specialisation skill as its gonna take another 3 months? Answer: Ur not, hence you are therefor SPECIALISING in railguns/blasters woteva. FFS it is so damn obvious to me, why cant other people see it? Forums: Sharks - MC
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2004.09.02 16:29:00 - [170] Originally by: Toran Mehtar Josh got it right in his very first post when he described the skills as a misnomer. The way these skills have been implemented they are not specialisations at all. If they keep them like this then they may aswell just rename them as advanced small pulse laser or whatever. I don't really care about the massive skill requirements, what bothers me is that If I choose to specialise in frigates (which I would like to), then I won't feel specialised at all because every advanced char out there will have a small 'specialisation' skill. What's so special about it if everyone has got it ? dont really understand ur point here? Every advanced character in eve has the same skillz. Most fighters will all have gunnery at 4/5, with BS at 4/5. Industrial chars will have mining/refining and building all at 5 Do u honestly think there will ever be skillz that only u and a few other people will have? No chance m8y boy. Whatever skillz u train there will always be people with the same or better, get over it. I really do not understand peoples problems with the new skillz? U specialise in using rails or blasters or autocannons or pulselasers or whatever. not the actual size of the weapon. It will mean u have to make a choice which turret type u want to use. Ok, sop rails + blasters use a similar skill set, as do autocannons + artillery, BUT if it takes 3 months or so to train for rail specialisation skill why would u train for the artillery specialisation skill as its gonna take another 3 months? Answer: Ur not, hence you are therefor SPECIALISING in railguns/blasters woteva. FFS it is so damn obvious to me, why cant other people see it? Forums: Sharks - MC
Nostradamu5	Posted - 2004.09.02 17:02:00 - [171] Where do I go from here? It appears everything has been said and re-said, quoted, re-quoted and possibly even misquoted. Personally IÆm waiting on the ô****ed on buried shark meat skillö. But what I probably really need is the escape final forum ban skill, sadly it wonÆt be trained in time. So for those of you who read this and want to comment you can use IBTE which is In Before The Execution Stop griping about server instability and go buy an EVE mug! Additionally with the purchase of each mug you will receive two(2) invisible Elves.
Nostradamu5	Posted - 2004.09.02 17:02:00 - [172] Where do I go from here? It appears everything has been said and re-said, quoted, re-quoted and possibly even misquoted. Personally IÆm waiting on the ô****ed on buried shark meat skillö. But what I probably really need is the escape final forum ban skill, sadly it wonÆt be trained in time. So for those of you who read this and want to comment you can use IBTE which is In Before The Execution Stop griping about server instability and go buy an EVE mug! Additionally with the purchase of each mug you will receive two(2) invisible Elves.
Turyleon Caddarn	Posted - 2004.09.02 17:25:00 - [173] Originally by: Eyeshadow ur becoming specialised in a gun class, not a size class. And to use the large stuff, u have to train the small stuff first anyway. CCP haved changed the game a lot sicne it's release, and have made it so ALL types of ship are of value, and means that you wont ahve to get a battleship just to be useful in combat. These specialisation skills completely go against everything they have been trying to implement, and give the impression that THEY still view the battleships as the ultimate fighter. This has not been the case on many an occasion, but we wont go into it here. Now, lets look at your post... Ok, i agree that you should require the small, medium, and large skills in order to train TECH 1 guns, but saying you have to train the tech 2 equivilent for them all again just to train the large or medium skills is proposterous. thats like saying: Quote: Ok, you can drive a normal car because you have a car license. You can drive a HGV because you have the HGV licence and the prerequisit Car license. However, in order to drive this new version of the HGV lorry, you need the updted HGV licence, PLUS the updated car license. Sounds a bit silly to me. Quote: ur becoming specialised in a gun class, not a size class so why did CCP release SMALL, MEDIUM, and LARGE versions of the specialisation skill? soudns like you are specialising in a size AND class to me. except, you are infact specialised in ALL sizes, which isnt very specialised. Also, Large guns take longer to train because they are a higher rankeed skill, so large guns users get double *****. So yea, i agreee with josh. "I know this game, it's called Cat and Mouse. There's only one way to win......... Don't be the mouse."*
Turyleon Caddarn	Posted - 2004.09.02 17:25:00 - [174] Originally by: Eyeshadow ur becoming specialised in a gun class, not a size class. And to use the large stuff, u have to train the small stuff first anyway. CCP haved changed the game a lot sicne it's release, and have made it so ALL types of ship are of value, and means that you wont ahve to get a battleship just to be useful in combat. These specialisation skills completely go against everything they have been trying to implement, and give the impression that THEY still view the battleships as the ultimate fighter. This has not been the case on many an occasion, but we wont go into it here. Now, lets look at your post... Ok, i agree that you should require the small, medium, and large skills in order to train TECH 1 guns, but saying you have to train the tech 2 equivilent for them all again just to train the large or medium skills is proposterous. thats like saying: Quote: Ok, you can drive a normal car because you have a car license. You can drive a HGV because you have the HGV licence and the prerequisit Car license. However, in order to drive this new version of the HGV lorry, you need the updted HGV licence, PLUS the updated car license. Sounds a bit silly to me. Quote: ur becoming specialised in a gun class, not a size class so why did CCP release SMALL, MEDIUM, and LARGE versions of the specialisation skill? soudns like you are specialising in a size AND class to me. except, you are infact specialised in ALL sizes, which isnt very specialised. Also, Large guns take longer to train because they are a higher rankeed skill, so large guns users get double *****. So yea, i agreee with josh. "I know this game, it's called Cat and Mouse. There's only one way to win......... Don't be the mouse."*
Broc Vallion	Posted - 2004.09.03 08:41:00 - [175] Your wrong..............if people (veterans) run out of skills to train they will moan.......like the thread last month about 10 million skill point characters being forced to train level 5 skills, for want of something better to train. Well,you got skills.......I suggest you train em. And I ask you, is is better to be good at one thing, or alot of things?....
Broc Vallion	Posted - 2004.09.03 08:41:00 - [176] Your wrong..............if people (veterans) run out of skills to train they will moan.......like the thread last month about 10 million skill point characters being forced to train level 5 skills, for want of something better to train. Well,you got skills.......I suggest you train em. And I ask you, is is better to be good at one thing, or alot of things?....
Love Ya	Posted - 2004.09.03 11:30:00 - [177] What Josh said Please notice as well that a whole 5 pages with 90% possitive arguments and only 10% negative against this post and no reply from any Dev or GM .. Love Ya wonders why ---------------------------------------------- I will get your Pod but i will still "Love Ya" "Run Rabbits Run" Your pirate name is:Bloody Bess Kidd
Love Ya	Posted - 2004.09.03 11:30:00 - [178] What Josh said Please notice as well that a whole 5 pages with 90% possitive arguments and only 10% negative against this post and no reply from any Dev or GM .. Love Ya wonders why ---------------------------------------------- I will get your Pod but i will still "Love Ya" "Run Rabbits Run" Your pirate name is:Bloody Bess Kidd
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2004.09.03 12:02:00 - [179] Looking at the skill tree's for TLII weapons and modules are bad enough sometimes, just think what could happen when TLII ships come out ... To fly a TLII Frigate you might need: Amarr Frigate level 5 and Caldari Frigate level 5 and Gallente Frigate level 5 and Minmatar Frigate level 5 and Frigate Specialist level 5 (rank 8) and one of the following dependant on race: Amarr Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) Caldari Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) Gallente Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) Minmatar Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) God knows what the requirements will be for TLIII, TLIV and TLV. -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2004.09.03 12:02:00 - [180] Looking at the skill tree's for TLII weapons and modules are bad enough sometimes, just think what could happen when TLII ships come out ... To fly a TLII Frigate you might need: Amarr Frigate level 5 and Caldari Frigate level 5 and Gallente Frigate level 5 and Minmatar Frigate level 5 and Frigate Specialist level 5 (rank 8) and one of the following dependant on race: Amarr Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) Caldari Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) Gallente Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) Minmatar Frigate Specialist level 1 (rank 12) God knows what the requirements will be for TLIII, TLIV and TLV. -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Lucre	Posted - 2004.09.03 12:37:00 - [181] Have to agree - as it stands things are ludicrous and those training times are way excessive. (And if the answer to that is something to do with advanced learning skills then won't that unbalance the skill requirements for existing tech 2?) Also - why don't the skills affect tech 1 guns? Are we seriously saying you train say 5 levels of small railgun specialisation and it has no effect whatsoever on your competence with small tech 1 railguns? Okay, so you could get round this point by renaming the skill something like Advanced Small Railgun Turret - which come to think of it might make Joshua happier too as it'd then parallel the tech 1 turret skills rather than being a 'specialisation'.
Lucre	Posted - 2004.09.03 12:37:00 - [182] Have to agree - as it stands things are ludicrous and those training times are way excessive. (And if the answer to that is something to do with advanced learning skills then won't that unbalance the skill requirements for existing tech 2?) Also - why don't the skills affect tech 1 guns? Are we seriously saying you train say 5 levels of small railgun specialisation and it has no effect whatsoever on your competence with small tech 1 railguns? Okay, so you could get round this point by renaming the skill something like Advanced Small Railgun Turret - which come to think of it might make Joshua happier too as it'd then parallel the tech 1 turret skills rather than being a 'specialisation'.
Bhal'rog	Posted - 2004.09.03 13:14:00 - [183] Edited by: Bhal'rog on 03/09/2004 13:18:27 I think the long training time is good and it is specialized. Now we truely will have projectile specialists, hybrid specialists and laser specialists. Granted if you are specialized in L Turrets you will also be specialized in M and S. The key point is that you are specialized for the type of gun. And I am glad that it takes time to become a specialist. Put in the time and focus your training. If the training was easy, everyone would be specialized in everything and where is the advantage. Everyone wants something for nothing. Tough. Do the time.
Bhal'rog	Posted - 2004.09.03 13:14:00 - [184] Edited by: Bhal'rog on 03/09/2004 13:18:27 I think the long training time is good and it is specialized. Now we truely will have projectile specialists, hybrid specialists and laser specialists. Granted if you are specialized in L Turrets you will also be specialized in M and S. The key point is that you are specialized for the type of gun. And I am glad that it takes time to become a specialist. Put in the time and focus your training. If the training was easy, everyone would be specialized in everything and where is the advantage. Everyone wants something for nothing. Tough. Do the time.
Sybylle	Posted - 2004.09.03 13:22:00 - [185] /second josh on these stipulations. I got nothing ragarding the prerequisites of Medium gun to train Medium specialisation. I'd have prefered a highter rank and not this bull$hit of training small to levl V, then sharpshooter, then... Specialisation should work per weapon size AND type, independently of smaller sizes. A for that would be welcomed to fix that...It's stupid and I fear player are again being screwed...Remember the "specialisation" named DCM??? Hi prereq, costly skill, rare roids, special frigate...Ending in an utter stup_id and unused item... Don't scrEw our guns (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Sybylle	Posted - 2004.09.03 13:22:00 - [186] /second josh on these stipulations. I got nothing ragarding the prerequisites of Medium gun to train Medium specialisation. I'd have prefered a highter rank and not this bull$hit of training small to levl V, then sharpshooter, then... Specialisation should work per weapon size AND type, independently of smaller sizes. A for that would be welcomed to fix that...It's stupid and I fear player are again being screwed...Remember the "specialisation" named DCM??? Hi prereq, costly skill, rare roids, special frigate...Ending in an utter stup_id and unused item... Don't scrEw our guns (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Gess	Posted - 2004.09.03 14:08:00 - [187] Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has been posted already. The main problem with the specialization is the nerfs imo. I for instance am quite happy that I can switch to amarr/gallente/caldari ships now that the projectiles have been nerfed to hell. That's something that can't be done easily with TL2. I wonder what the proponents of specialization will say if one day ccp nerfs their main T2 gun(s) after players have spent months of training. Just my two isk.
Gess	Posted - 2004.09.03 14:08:00 - [188] Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has been posted already. The main problem with the specialization is the nerfs imo. I for instance am quite happy that I can switch to amarr/gallente/caldari ships now that the projectiles have been nerfed to hell. That's something that can't be done easily with TL2. I wonder what the proponents of specialization will say if one day ccp nerfs their main T2 gun(s) after players have spent months of training. Just my two isk.
Rezi Bogdanov	Posted - 2004.09.03 16:39:00 - [189] Originally by: Bhal'rog Edited by: Bhal'rog on 03/09/2004 13:18:27 I think the long training time is good and it is specialized. Now we truely will have projectile specialists, hybrid specialists and laser specialists. Granted if you are specialized in L Turrets you will also be specialized in M and S. The key point is that you are specialized for the type of gun. And I am glad that it takes time to become a specialist. Put in the time and focus your training. If the training was easy, everyone would be specialized in everything and where is the advantage. Everyone wants something for nothing. Tough. Do the time. Why must I be specialized in small laser turrets to be able to use large laser turrets? Is there some inherent knowledge from small lasers that is necessary for using large ones? Do I really need to be a perfect marksman with my rifle in order to calculate the firing solution for a howitzer? I do want specialization, much more of it than whats available right now, but not just by creating an illogical and cumbersome way to get the skills. I dont want the training for specialization to be easy, i wouldnt mind having even steeper skill requirements than whats available now, say 5 new specialization-related rank8 skills at lvl4. Those new skills might actually be useful as well, compared to having small weapons skills when really using large guns. The system right now seems more to be a stop-gap measure by making specializtion a pain in the ass to get, rather than making it very hard, but also worthwile to get. I dont want something for nothing, but i do want to get what i paid for without having to buy a lot of crap i dont want. If i want to rent "Return of the Jedi" at the DVD store, should the clerk force me to pay for "A new hope" and "The Empire Strikes Back" as well? "Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines" General 'Buck' Turgidson, from Dr Strangelove
Rezi Bogdanov	Posted - 2004.09.03 16:39:00 - [190] Originally by: Bhal'rog Edited by: Bhal'rog on 03/09/2004 13:18:27 I think the long training time is good and it is specialized. Now we truely will have projectile specialists, hybrid specialists and laser specialists. Granted if you are specialized in L Turrets you will also be specialized in M and S. The key point is that you are specialized for the type of gun. And I am glad that it takes time to become a specialist. Put in the time and focus your training. If the training was easy, everyone would be specialized in everything and where is the advantage. Everyone wants something for nothing. Tough. Do the time. Why must I be specialized in small laser turrets to be able to use large laser turrets? Is there some inherent knowledge from small lasers that is necessary for using large ones? Do I really need to be a perfect marksman with my rifle in order to calculate the firing solution for a howitzer? I do want specialization, much more of it than whats available right now, but not just by creating an illogical and cumbersome way to get the skills. I dont want the training for specialization to be easy, i wouldnt mind having even steeper skill requirements than whats available now, say 5 new specialization-related rank8 skills at lvl4. Those new skills might actually be useful as well, compared to having small weapons skills when really using large guns. The system right now seems more to be a stop-gap measure by making specializtion a pain in the ass to get, rather than making it very hard, but also worthwile to get. I dont want something for nothing, but i do want to get what i paid for without having to buy a lot of crap i dont want. If i want to rent "Return of the Jedi" at the DVD store, should the clerk force me to pay for "A new hope" and "The Empire Strikes Back" as well? "Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines" General 'Buck' Turgidson, from Dr Strangelove
Bhal'rog	Posted - 2004.09.03 17:50:00 - [191] Originally by: Rezi Bogdanov Why must I be specialized in small laser turrets to be able to use large laser turrets? Is there some inherent knowledge from small lasers that is necessary for using large ones? Do I really need to be a perfect marksman with my rifle in order to calculate the firing solution for a howitzer? I can't answer that. Why do we need to have small and medium turrets trained before we can train large turrets? shurgs It is the current system, so at least its consitent. And it certainly makes sure if you do train Large Autocannon specialization, that you are specialized in the use of all Autocannons S, M and L. They more barriers to use these skills the better IMHO. Originally by: Rezi Bogdanov I dont want the training for specialization to be easy, i wouldnt mind having even steeper skill requirements than whats available now, say 5 new specialization-related rank8 skills at lvl4. Those new skills might actually be useful as well, compared to having small weapons skills when really using large guns. What you suggest might end up taking more time to train than the current system, which I like but I think it should be more difficult to become a specialist than to purchase one skill and poof you are now a L Autocannon specialist. btw: I am not taking this point of view because I already have all the prereqs. trained. I do not have Med Proj 5 or Small Proj 5 trained yet. I do have L Proj 5 trained So personally I will have to train some skills that I am not using at the moment. But its just time, and I'd rather have those other skills at Lvl 5 than spend more time on the new skills.
Bhal'rog	Posted - 2004.09.03 17:50:00 - [192] Originally by: Rezi Bogdanov Why must I be specialized in small laser turrets to be able to use large laser turrets? Is there some inherent knowledge from small lasers that is necessary for using large ones? Do I really need to be a perfect marksman with my rifle in order to calculate the firing solution for a howitzer? I can't answer that. Why do we need to have small and medium turrets trained before we can train large turrets? shurgs It is the current system, so at least its consitent. And it certainly makes sure if you do train Large Autocannon specialization, that you are specialized in the use of all Autocannons S, M and L. They more barriers to use these skills the better IMHO. Originally by: Rezi Bogdanov I dont want the training for specialization to be easy, i wouldnt mind having even steeper skill requirements than whats available now, say 5 new specialization-related rank8 skills at lvl4. Those new skills might actually be useful as well, compared to having small weapons skills when really using large guns. What you suggest might end up taking more time to train than the current system, which I like but I think it should be more difficult to become a specialist than to purchase one skill and poof you are now a L Autocannon specialist. btw: I am not taking this point of view because I already have all the prereqs. trained. I do not have Med Proj 5 or Small Proj 5 trained yet. I do have L Proj 5 trained So personally I will have to train some skills that I am not using at the moment. But its just time, and I'd rather have those other skills at Lvl 5 than spend more time on the new skills.
Fuse	Posted - 2004.09.03 18:59:00 - [193] This is a loaded topic kind of like the loaded question. No matter what CCP says here it will not make it look any better. I agree with Josh but CCP will not change it. 1) They are too busy with Shiva. 2) Long and drawn out trainings makes more money. 0.o It's not you... no wait it is you.
Fuse	Posted - 2004.09.03 18:59:00 - [194] This is a loaded topic kind of like the loaded question. No matter what CCP says here it will not make it look any better. I agree with Josh but CCP will not change it. 1) They are too busy with Shiva. 2) Long and drawn out trainings makes more money. 0.o It's not you... no wait it is you.
Celistine	Posted - 2004.09.03 20:02:00 - [195] I agree, I'm starting to wonder about the devs now. How much time do they really put into this added content. They have really been pushing "You are not your ship" and "Bigger is not going to mean better", but with these its like everyone else said we all have to be frig experts. (I'm defo a lifer for eve as far as it goes) "Hold still Nathan. This will only hurt for a minute, but damn will it hurt." - Meatwad
Celistine	Posted - 2004.09.03 20:02:00 - [196] I agree, I'm starting to wonder about the devs now. How much time do they really put into this added content. They have really been pushing "You are not your ship" and "Bigger is not going to mean better", but with these its like everyone else said we all have to be frig experts. (I'm defo a lifer for eve as far as it goes) "Hold still Nathan. This will only hurt for a minute, but damn will it hurt." - Meatwad
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2004.09.06 17:43:00 - [197] Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 06/09/2004 17:44:31 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Disagree. You're specializing in a gun type, not a size class. Railgun, Blaster, Autocannon vs Small, Medium, Large is quite different. It makes sense that if you wanna know how to use the tech 2 big rails, that you should have to know how to use the tech 2 small rails first. Just like if you wanted to fly gallente battleships really well, you need to know how to fly the frigs and cruisers really well first. Skill progression IS a good thing. Battleships are as end-game as it gets, and tech 2 large guns should NOT be for some pansy ass miners or producers. Let them keep with their tech 1, but if you've devoted your character to pure combat, and have the gunnery skills to back it up, it shouldn't be a problem. hf, gg, gl http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=106572&page=1 What Joshua has stated and i can only agree with is the specialisation skills are too high requirement, what i plea for is having other skills who are an advantage to your battleskills overall: Level 5 gunnery, Level 5 Sharpshooter, Level 5 rapid firing and such. Also a gun does not make a pilot a good pilot, its more balance overall that makes one a good pilot. I can "specialise" in a gunnery tree, but that doesn't finish my tactics specialisation and thats where we should go to as combat pilots. I can have a tactic of shooting at short range, but spend 70 days in gunnery specialisation... But if i cant tank, use cap relays well enough and repair with large repair units i can go as close as i want but i wont surfive. All CCP has done now is make up 2 unique skills and make subtree's on that... It would be much nicer to see CCP make a whole new range of gunnery skills that are requirements. People tend to talk about n00bs who become cannonfodder, but they have the same time to spend in these skills as the rest of us. The moment one of the veteran pilots hit this skill, you will see the big gap which will take a long time for n00bs to overcome. (65-75 days according to my calculation which is presented in my link.). As i stated in my own post: MY PLEA My personal suggestion is to lower requirements for the skilltraining for gunnery atleast, not only because CCP has a habbit of radicly change gamemechanisms, but also to keep in mind that the tech2 ships where the Large specialised guns are going to be mounted on will require even more training. I can only imagine what a Tech2 battleship class ship will require in training. We dont even know if tech2 large guns are worth 75 days training, only CCP knows that answer. With gunnery you are not a good pilot and you dont get the max out of your ship, a good pilot (skillpointwise) needs to train on various diffrent skilltree's. If all those skill tree's contain 75 days of training then we can expect to be tech2 battleship pilot by the year 2022, and were only talking about tech2 here... I cant wait for tech3. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2004.09.06 17:43:00 - [198] Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 06/09/2004 17:44:31 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Disagree. You're specializing in a gun type, not a size class. Railgun, Blaster, Autocannon vs Small, Medium, Large is quite different. It makes sense that if you wanna know how to use the tech 2 big rails, that you should have to know how to use the tech 2 small rails first. Just like if you wanted to fly gallente battleships really well, you need to know how to fly the frigs and cruisers really well first. Skill progression IS a good thing. Battleships are as end-game as it gets, and tech 2 large guns should NOT be for some pansy ass miners or producers. Let them keep with their tech 1, but if you've devoted your character to pure combat, and have the gunnery skills to back it up, it shouldn't be a problem. hf, gg, gl http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=106572&page=1 What Joshua has stated and i can only agree with is the specialisation skills are too high requirement, what i plea for is having other skills who are an advantage to your battleskills overall: Level 5 gunnery, Level 5 Sharpshooter, Level 5 rapid firing and such. Also a gun does not make a pilot a good pilot, its more balance overall that makes one a good pilot. I can "specialise" in a gunnery tree, but that doesn't finish my tactics specialisation and thats where we should go to as combat pilots. I can have a tactic of shooting at short range, but spend 70 days in gunnery specialisation... But if i cant tank, use cap relays well enough and repair with large repair units i can go as close as i want but i wont surfive. All CCP has done now is make up 2 unique skills and make subtree's on that... It would be much nicer to see CCP make a whole new range of gunnery skills that are requirements. People tend to talk about n00bs who become cannonfodder, but they have the same time to spend in these skills as the rest of us. The moment one of the veteran pilots hit this skill, you will see the big gap which will take a long time for n00bs to overcome. (65-75 days according to my calculation which is presented in my link.). As i stated in my own post: MY PLEA My personal suggestion is to lower requirements for the skilltraining for gunnery atleast, not only because CCP has a habbit of radicly change gamemechanisms, but also to keep in mind that the tech2 ships where the Large specialised guns are going to be mounted on will require even more training. I can only imagine what a Tech2 battleship class ship will require in training. We dont even know if tech2 large guns are worth 75 days training, only CCP knows that answer. With gunnery you are not a good pilot and you dont get the max out of your ship, a good pilot (skillpointwise) needs to train on various diffrent skilltree's. If all those skill tree's contain 75 days of training then we can expect to be tech2 battleship pilot by the year 2022, and were only talking about tech2 here... I cant wait for tech3. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Antinea	Posted - 2004.09.06 18:52:00 - [199] I agree with Joshua... I dont mind the time spent specialising. I dont mind having several lvl 5 prereqs like Sharpshooter, Motion prediction, etc. I do mind having to train Small Specilization to lvl 4 in order to get Medium Specialization. It is pointless, and makes no sense. No matter how much you think you love somebody, you'll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close
Antinea	Posted - 2004.09.06 18:52:00 - [200] I agree with Joshua... I dont mind the time spent specialising. I dont mind having several lvl 5 prereqs like Sharpshooter, Motion prediction, etc. I do mind having to train Small Specilization to lvl 4 in order to get Medium Specialization. It is pointless, and makes no sense. No matter how much you think you love somebody, you'll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close
Thalanor	Posted - 2004.09.06 21:20:00 - [201] i think someone may already have touched upon this, but my concerns are that if these are the requirements for T2 weapons,then the T4 and T5 requirements will be truly horrifying. ----------------------------------------------
Thalanor	Posted - 2004.09.06 21:20:00 - [202] i think someone may already have touched upon this, but my concerns are that if these are the requirements for T2 weapons,then the T4 and T5 requirements will be truly horrifying. ----------------------------------------------
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.19 19:42:00 - [203] Originally by: Antinea I agree with Joshua... I dont mind the time spent specialising. I dont mind having several lvl 5 prereqs like Sharpshooter, Motion prediction, etc. I do mind having to train Small Specilization to lvl 4 in order to get Medium Specialization. It is pointless, and makes no sense. Does anyone have Large Specialization yet? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.19 19:42:00 - [204] Originally by: Antinea I agree with Joshua... I dont mind the time spent specialising. I dont mind having several lvl 5 prereqs like Sharpshooter, Motion prediction, etc. I do mind having to train Small Specilization to lvl 4 in order to get Medium Specialization. It is pointless, and makes no sense. Does anyone have Large Specialization yet? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
babyblue	Posted - 2004.09.29 17:24:00 - [205] Originally by: The Sloth Agreed. However the reason for this probably lies in the fact that CCP wanted the specialisation to have a huge amount of training time. You have to ask yourself this - would you prefer a higher rank (i.e. rank 12) and some other requirement for the skill or would you prefer to spend the same amount of time training and end up being 'specialised' in the lesser skills as well? The Sloth. This post has swung the argument for me. I would rather pick up some more useful skills while training my specialisation, than have a rank 12 skill that JUST gives me the specialisation. At least this way you are picking up skills that you may or may not choose to use in the future.
babyblue	Posted - 2004.09.29 17:24:00 - [206] Originally by: The Sloth Agreed. However the reason for this probably lies in the fact that CCP wanted the specialisation to have a huge amount of training time. You have to ask yourself this - would you prefer a higher rank (i.e. rank 12) and some other requirement for the skill or would you prefer to spend the same amount of time training and end up being 'specialised' in the lesser skills as well? The Sloth. This post has swung the argument for me. I would rather pick up some more useful skills while training my specialisation, than have a rank 12 skill that JUST gives me the specialisation. At least this way you are picking up skills that you may or may not choose to use in the future.
Tokka Konnair	Posted - 2004.09.29 19:19:00 - [207] Edited by: Tokka Konnair on 29/09/2004 19:45:46 agreed - The Sloth has made a good rationalisation there this way is preferable because your specialising in a weapon type (projectile/lasers/hybrids) instead of a size likely if they changed it you'd only get 1 weapon type in one size (ie: just large lasers) to train in the equivelent amount of time it's not realistic perhaps ... realism isn't the issue and no discussion of it belongs on these forums it is, however fair people who want to use multiple research agents have to train lab opps and research to level 5 each before they get Research Project Management they may never make use of those 2 science skills but they have to train them anyway and it means having multiple research agents is a major commitment well Large tech 2 guns should be a very major comitment and this way it is i think a solution might be for some sort of 'size specialisation' skills to come out so that those saying 'i want to specialise specificaly in battleship weapons' can train Large turret damage, Large turret tracking etc.. to level 5 each or whatever __________________________________________
Tokka Konnair	Posted - 2004.09.29 19:19:00 - [208] Edited by: Tokka Konnair on 29/09/2004 19:45:46 agreed - The Sloth has made a good rationalisation there this way is preferable because your specialising in a weapon type (projectile/lasers/hybrids) instead of a size likely if they changed it you'd only get 1 weapon type in one size (ie: just large lasers) to train in the equivelent amount of time it's not realistic perhaps ... realism isn't the issue and no discussion of it belongs on these forums it is, however fair people who want to use multiple research agents have to train lab opps and research to level 5 each before they get Research Project Management they may never make use of those 2 science skills but they have to train them anyway and it means having multiple research agents is a major commitment well Large tech 2 guns should be a very major comitment and this way it is i think a solution might be for some sort of 'size specialisation' skills to come out so that those saying 'i want to specialise specificaly in battleship weapons' can train Large turret damage, Large turret tracking etc.. to level 5 each or whatever __________________________________________
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.09.29 20:03:00 - [209] I still dont like that rationalization. Because now we are getting stuck into one weapon type. Now if I train large hybrid specialization, I now am a specialist for all hybrid weapons. If the specialization skills were different, I could specialize in large weapons but be weak in medium and small. The current situation lets me simply invest a small amount of training time and be a specialist in all ships and weapons. All that is happening is the devs making it easier for jack of all trades characters. Its a joke. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.09.29 20:03:00 - [210] I still dont like that rationalization. Because now we are getting stuck into one weapon type. Now if I train large hybrid specialization, I now am a specialist for all hybrid weapons. If the specialization skills were different, I could specialize in large weapons but be weak in medium and small. The current situation lets me simply invest a small amount of training time and be a specialist in all ships and weapons. All that is happening is the devs making it easier for jack of all trades characters. Its a joke. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Gasparde	Posted - 2004.09.29 20:06:00 - [211] Its all about the dollar. The longer it takes you to train the longer you will stay playing (the theory anyway).
Gasparde	Posted - 2004.09.29 20:06:00 - [212] Its all about the dollar. The longer it takes you to train the longer you will stay playing (the theory anyway).
Tokka Konnair	Posted - 2004.09.29 21:32:00 - [213] bottom line: if you don't intend to use the medium and small guns anyway what difference does it make? i agree it's odd that the pre-req for Large specialisation skills includes the medium and small specialisations at level 4 but the training times are about right, especialy now we have advanced learning skills there's no reason for CCP to change the pre-reqs __________________________________________
Tokka Konnair	Posted - 2004.09.29 21:32:00 - [214] bottom line: if you don't intend to use the medium and small guns anyway what difference does it make? i agree it's odd that the pre-req for Large specialisation skills includes the medium and small specialisations at level 4 but the training times are about right, especialy now we have advanced learning skills there's no reason for CCP to change the pre-reqs __________________________________________
Kaladryn	Posted - 2004.09.29 22:03:00 - [215] I totally disagree with the original post, battleships skills have always been build on requirements from cruisers and frigs... Kaladryn
Kaladryn	Posted - 2004.09.29 22:03:00 - [216] I totally disagree with the original post, battleships skills have always been build on requirements from cruisers and frigs... Kaladryn
Aitrus	Posted - 2004.09.29 23:02:00 - [217] It would appear that CCP does not consider weapon SIZE a specialization. Weapon TYPE is the specialization. Therefore, you're a Railgun specialist, or a Blaster specialist. Not a small turrent specialist. I understand that people want to specialize in the large guns of your choice without training the small, but did you fly a battleship before training cruiser skills? Were you able to use large turrents without specialization while skipping medium? The training path that turrent specialization takes is consistent with what was already set. Honestly, I'm suprised that elite cruisers don't have a frigate 5 pre-requisite.
Aitrus	Posted - 2004.09.29 23:02:00 - [218] It would appear that CCP does not consider weapon SIZE a specialization. Weapon TYPE is the specialization. Therefore, you're a Railgun specialist, or a Blaster specialist. Not a small turrent specialist. I understand that people want to specialize in the large guns of your choice without training the small, but did you fly a battleship before training cruiser skills? Were you able to use large turrents without specialization while skipping medium? The training path that turrent specialization takes is consistent with what was already set. Honestly, I'm suprised that elite cruisers don't have a frigate 5 pre-requisite.
Tokka Konnair	Posted - 2004.09.29 23:06:00 - [219] exactly the pic here reads Large Railgun Specialization not Railgun Large Specilization __________________________________________
Tokka Konnair	Posted - 2004.09.29 23:06:00 - [220] exactly the pic here reads Large Railgun Specialization not Railgun Large Specilization __________________________________________
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.09.29 23:07:00 - [221] This specialization business will absolutely kill the tech 2 large weapon market. --
StinkFinger	Posted - 2004.09.29 23:07:00 - [222] This specialization business will absolutely kill the tech 2 large weapon market. --
Manfred Doomhammer	Posted - 2004.09.30 01:10:00 - [223] well... they simply should rename the specialisation skills into timehog skills or something... all it does is making a frig and cruiser jockey out of everyone who wants to go for large spezialisation... meaning, there will be nothing SPEZIAL about tech2 small guns... only a small percentage of the people will not be able to use them because of the socalled specialisation skills... if they want to make sure training takes long, they could have simply upped the rank of the skill in question.... would ahve made more sense than the approach ccp took now... so, yes, signed, give us specialisation instead of uniformity ---- Manfred Doomhammer Fleet Admiral CEO ShadowTec Inc.
Manfred Doomhammer	Posted - 2004.09.30 01:10:00 - [224] well... they simply should rename the specialisation skills into timehog skills or something... all it does is making a frig and cruiser jockey out of everyone who wants to go for large spezialisation... meaning, there will be nothing SPEZIAL about tech2 small guns... only a small percentage of the people will not be able to use them because of the socalled specialisation skills... if they want to make sure training takes long, they could have simply upped the rank of the skill in question.... would ahve made more sense than the approach ccp took now... so, yes, signed, give us specialisation instead of uniformity ---- Manfred Doomhammer Fleet Admiral CEO ShadowTec Inc.
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.30 01:55:00 - [225] Edited by: cashman on 30/09/2004 01:56:49 Originally by: Aitrus It would appear that CCP does not consider weapon SIZE a specialization. Weapon TYPE is the specialization. Therefore, you're a Railgun specialist, or a Blaster specialist. Not a small turrent specialist. I understand that people want to specialize in the large guns of your choice without training the small, but did you fly a battleship before training cruiser skills? Were you able to use large turrents without specialization while skipping medium? The training path that turrent specialization takes is consistent with what was already set. Honestly, I'm suprised that elite cruisers don't have a frigate 5 pre-requisite. [offtopic] ITS TURRETS!! T-U-R-R-E-T-S ! NO "N" IN THAT WORD! AAAGGHHH! TURRET! [/offtopic] ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
cashman	Posted - 2004.09.30 01:55:00 - [226] Edited by: cashman on 30/09/2004 01:56:49 Originally by: Aitrus It would appear that CCP does not consider weapon SIZE a specialization. Weapon TYPE is the specialization. Therefore, you're a Railgun specialist, or a Blaster specialist. Not a small turrent specialist. I understand that people want to specialize in the large guns of your choice without training the small, but did you fly a battleship before training cruiser skills? Were you able to use large turrents without specialization while skipping medium? The training path that turrent specialization takes is consistent with what was already set. Honestly, I'm suprised that elite cruisers don't have a frigate 5 pre-requisite. [offtopic] ITS TURRETS!! T-U-R-R-E-T-S ! NO "N" IN THAT WORD! AAAGGHHH! TURRET! [/offtopic] ____________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Ris Dnalor	Posted - 2004.09.30 04:23:00 - [227] agreed -- Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
Ris Dnalor	Posted - 2004.09.30 04:23:00 - [228] agreed -- Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2004.09.30 05:12:00 - [229] yea I realy dont wanna train "high speed chase" to learn how to "Drive monster truck" or learn how to "fly a hellicopter" to "fly a jumbo jet" /signed Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Bhaal What has turned out better than expected? Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This i
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2004.09.30 05:12:00 - [230] yea I realy dont wanna train "high speed chase" to learn how to "Drive monster truck" or learn how to "fly a hellicopter" to "fly a jumbo jet" /signed Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Bhaal What has turned out better than expected? Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This i
Lachenlaud	Posted - 2004.09.30 05:32:00 - [231] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. Oh cry me a river... no offense against you specifically Joshua... but the whole idea of all these new skills is not just for battleship pilots... Too many people look for instant gratification. Consider what the skills do, not to mention the weapons they allow you to use. For that type of destructive power (multi-racial battleship pilot that I am) you should HAVE to work up to it. Even in the military - they don't let you play with the BIG guns until you can use the little ones.... Stop being indignant people... you just gotta deal... Oh - and in case you haven't noticed - they added ADVANCED LEARNING SKILLS. Prior to all these new skills in the game - gunnery, learning, corp management, and trading... it would have taken you 10+ years to max them out. Now... with ALL the new skills and the advanced learning skills - you can max them all out in 8+ years. So as far as time spent, etc... play your cards right and it won't take all that long at all. [email protected] http://www.goi-eve.com/forums/ Check out the Eve Master Datasheet here!!
Lachenlaud	Posted - 2004.09.30 05:32:00 - [232] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. Oh cry me a river... no offense against you specifically Joshua... but the whole idea of all these new skills is not just for battleship pilots... Too many people look for instant gratification. Consider what the skills do, not to mention the weapons they allow you to use. For that type of destructive power (multi-racial battleship pilot that I am) you should HAVE to work up to it. Even in the military - they don't let you play with the BIG guns until you can use the little ones.... Stop being indignant people... you just gotta deal... Oh - and in case you haven't noticed - they added ADVANCED LEARNING SKILLS. Prior to all these new skills in the game - gunnery, learning, corp management, and trading... it would have taken you 10+ years to max them out. Now... with ALL the new skills and the advanced learning skills - you can max them all out in 8+ years. So as far as time spent, etc... play your cards right and it won't take all that long at all. [email protected] http://www.goi-eve.com/forums/ Check out the Eve Master Datasheet here!!
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.09.30 07:04:00 - [233] Originally by: Lachenlaud Originally by: Joshua Calvert Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. Oh cry me a river... no offense against you specifically Joshua... but the whole idea of all these new skills is not just for battleship pilots... Too many people look for instant gratification. Consider what the skills do, not to mention the weapons they allow you to use. For that type of destructive power (multi-racial battleship pilot that I am) you should HAVE to work up to it. Even in the military - they don't let you play with the BIG guns until you can use the little ones.... Stop being indignant people... you just gotta deal... Oh - and in case you haven't noticed - they added ADVANCED LEARNING SKILLS. Prior to all these new skills in the game - gunnery, learning, corp management, and trading... it would have taken you 10+ years to max them out. Now... with ALL the new skills and the advanced learning skills - you can max them all out in 8+ years. So as far as time spent, etc... play your cards right and it won't take all that long at all. You just dont understand, its not about instant gratification, its about ballance. Right now, the rule of thumb is that if someone has the skills to pilot a battleship and you dont, generally speaking, they will mop the floor with you in terms of total combat skills. If specialization was actually specialization, this would change, but because it is the way it is, a cruiser or frigate pilot will never beat someone who has specialized in large weapons, and do you know why? Because they will have level 4 in the skill for both small and medium, and if you have level 5, chances are an extra 2-5% isnt going to help you any. Trust me, this will bite the game in the ass, not now, but later, probably 6 months down the road people will still be calling for nerfs to battleship pilots, and it wont be their fault that they are the best in all ship classes, it will be because CCP made it easy for them to be the best, now they have an incentive to train up the other ships and be jack of all trades characters. They have the specialization for small and medium? Why waste it now that you have it? You may not believe it now, but it will happen, that I can guarantee. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.09.30 07:04:00 - [234] Originally by: Lachenlaud Originally by: Joshua Calvert Specialization is a misnomer because we are being forced to specialize in areas in which we may hold no interest. Why should I, as a battleship pilot, be forced to train Small Hybrid/Medium Hybrid specialization just so I can then train/specialize in Large Hybrids? It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. Oh cry me a river... no offense against you specifically Joshua... but the whole idea of all these new skills is not just for battleship pilots... Too many people look for instant gratification. Consider what the skills do, not to mention the weapons they allow you to use. For that type of destructive power (multi-racial battleship pilot that I am) you should HAVE to work up to it. Even in the military - they don't let you play with the BIG guns until you can use the little ones.... Stop being indignant people... you just gotta deal... Oh - and in case you haven't noticed - they added ADVANCED LEARNING SKILLS. Prior to all these new skills in the game - gunnery, learning, corp management, and trading... it would have taken you 10+ years to max them out. Now... with ALL the new skills and the advanced learning skills - you can max them all out in 8+ years. So as far as time spent, etc... play your cards right and it won't take all that long at all. You just dont understand, its not about instant gratification, its about ballance. Right now, the rule of thumb is that if someone has the skills to pilot a battleship and you dont, generally speaking, they will mop the floor with you in terms of total combat skills. If specialization was actually specialization, this would change, but because it is the way it is, a cruiser or frigate pilot will never beat someone who has specialized in large weapons, and do you know why? Because they will have level 4 in the skill for both small and medium, and if you have level 5, chances are an extra 2-5% isnt going to help you any. Trust me, this will bite the game in the ass, not now, but later, probably 6 months down the road people will still be calling for nerfs to battleship pilots, and it wont be their fault that they are the best in all ship classes, it will be because CCP made it easy for them to be the best, now they have an incentive to train up the other ships and be jack of all trades characters. They have the specialization for small and medium? Why waste it now that you have it? You may not believe it now, but it will happen, that I can guarantee. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Burga Galti	Posted - 2004.09.30 09:12:00 - [235] /signed Josh is right, this doesn't make a great deal of sense. You see, to be an expert in using a tank sized gun I don't have to be an expert in using a sniper rifle. If I did, then any tank expert would also be a sniper expert which would devalue the role of bein a sniper. The same applies here, yes the time sink should be neccesary, but with the current tree this will be a nerf to the elite frigate & elite cruiser pilots who will find that an elite battleship pilot will be able to step down into their shoes quite easily. That kills all notion of specialisation. Tales from the EVE Cluster
Burga Galti	Posted - 2004.09.30 09:12:00 - [236] /signed Josh is right, this doesn't make a great deal of sense. You see, to be an expert in using a tank sized gun I don't have to be an expert in using a sniper rifle. If I did, then any tank expert would also be a sniper expert which would devalue the role of bein a sniper. The same applies here, yes the time sink should be neccesary, but with the current tree this will be a nerf to the elite frigate & elite cruiser pilots who will find that an elite battleship pilot will be able to step down into their shoes quite easily. That kills all notion of specialisation. Tales from the EVE Cluster
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.09.30 10:21:00 - [237] Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:37:20 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:24:14 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:23:10 Signed again. This makes a weapon class a mere prerequisite for any higher-size class. ie: - small is a prereq. for medium and large. - medium is a prereq for large. Where is the pleasure (and gamer's pride) where the skills you spent 1 month traning are only a stepstone to something bigger? To sum it up: Frigate pilots need to know they are unique. Cruiser pilots need to know they are unique. Battleship pilots need to know they are unique. Here's what it would be nice to have: small (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - Motion Prediction 3 - Small turret 5 small (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - sharpshooter 3 - Small turret 5 medium (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - Motion prediction 4 - Medium turret 5 medium (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - sharpshooter 4 - Medium turret 5 large (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - Motion Prediction 5 - Large turret 5 large (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - sharpshooter 5 - Large turret 5 Although it is true it would be too fast specializing...
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.09.30 10:21:00 - [238] Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:37:20 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:24:14 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:23:10 Signed again. This makes a weapon class a mere prerequisite for any higher-size class. ie: - small is a prereq. for medium and large. - medium is a prereq for large. Where is the pleasure (and gamer's pride) where the skills you spent 1 month traning are only a stepstone to something bigger? To sum it up: Frigate pilots need to know they are unique. Cruiser pilots need to know they are unique. Battleship pilots need to know they are unique. Here's what it would be nice to have: small (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - Motion Prediction 3 - Small turret 5 small (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - sharpshooter 3 - Small turret 5 medium (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - Motion prediction 4 - Medium turret 5 medium (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - sharpshooter 4 - Medium turret 5 large (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - Motion Prediction 5 - Large turret 5 large (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - sharpshooter 5 - Large turret 5 Although it is true it would be too fast specializing...
Manfred Doomhammer	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:35:00 - [239] Edited by: Manfred Doomhammer on 30/09/2004 13:37:09 Originally by: jukriamrr Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:37:20 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:24:14 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:23:10 Signed again. This makes a weapon class a mere prerequisite for any higher-size class. ie: - small is a prereq. for medium and large. - medium is a prereq for large. Where is the pleasure (and gamer's pride) where the skills you spent 1 month traning are only a stepstone to something bigger? To sum it up: Frigate pilots need to know they are unique. Cruiser pilots need to know they are unique. Battleship pilots need to know they are unique. Here's what it would be nice to have: small (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - Motion Prediction 3 - Small turret 5 small (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - sharpshooter 3 - Small turret 5 medium (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - Motion prediction 4 - Medium turret 5 medium (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - sharpshooter 4 - Medium turret 5 large (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - Motion Prediction 5 - Large turret 5 large (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - sharpshooter 5 - Large turret 5 Although it is true it would be too fast specializing... sounds good, and in fact, it doesnt mean that specialising would be too fast.... simply up the rank of the specialising skill by a hefty bit... i dont want specialising to be shorter work, i just hate the thought that everyone going for large specialisation automatically has the small specialisation too... somehow cuts down the speciality of dedicated frigate- (or cruiser-) jockeys... ---- Manfred Doomhammer Fleet Admiral CEO ShadowTec Inc.
Manfred Doomhammer	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:35:00 - [240] Edited by: Manfred Doomhammer on 30/09/2004 13:37:09 Originally by: jukriamrr Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:37:20 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:24:14 Edited by: jukriamrr on 30/09/2004 10:23:10 Signed again. This makes a weapon class a mere prerequisite for any higher-size class. ie: - small is a prereq. for medium and large. - medium is a prereq for large. Where is the pleasure (and gamer's pride) where the skills you spent 1 month traning are only a stepstone to something bigger? To sum it up: Frigate pilots need to know they are unique. Cruiser pilots need to know they are unique. Battleship pilots need to know they are unique. Here's what it would be nice to have: small (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - Motion Prediction 3 - Small turret 5 small (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 3 - sharpshooter 3 - Small turret 5 medium (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - Motion prediction 4 - Medium turret 5 medium (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 4 - sharpshooter 4 - Medium turret 5 large (short-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - Motion Prediction 5 - Large turret 5 large (long-range) turret specialisation - Gunnery 5 - sharpshooter 5 - Large turret 5 Although it is true it would be too fast specializing... sounds good, and in fact, it doesnt mean that specialising would be too fast.... simply up the rank of the specialising skill by a hefty bit... i dont want specialising to be shorter work, i just hate the thought that everyone going for large specialisation automatically has the small specialisation too... somehow cuts down the speciality of dedicated frigate- (or cruiser-) jockeys... ---- Manfred Doomhammer Fleet Admiral CEO ShadowTec Inc.
DeerHunter GE	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:45:00 - [241] CCP, what do you think? I have to agree with this topic ! However, to bring in more time consuming skills for further advanced players is good....but this way its just to bad.... Don't ask "can i have your stuff" because i'll give it to everybody else than you!
DeerHunter GE	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:45:00 - [242] CCP, what do you think? I have to agree with this topic ! However, to bring in more time consuming skills for further advanced players is good....but this way its just to bad.... Don't ask "can i have your stuff" because i'll give it to everybody else than you!
Aneu Angellus	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:50:00 - [243] Edited by: Aneu Angellus on 30/09/2004 13:57:25 Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Antinea I agree with Joshua... I dont mind the time spent specialising. I dont mind having several lvl 5 prereqs like Sharpshooter, Motion prediction, etc. I do mind having to train Small Specilization to lvl 4 in order to get Medium Specialization. It is pointless, and makes no sense. Does anyone have Large Specialization yet? Im on Medium Hybrid Spec level 4, training 5 now, Then i can start training large Hybrid Spec level 1, i allready got Gallante BS 5 and Large Hybrid 5... ________________ Aneu Angellus Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
Aneu Angellus	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:50:00 - [244] Edited by: Aneu Angellus on 30/09/2004 13:57:25 Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: Antinea I agree with Joshua... I dont mind the time spent specialising. I dont mind having several lvl 5 prereqs like Sharpshooter, Motion prediction, etc. I do mind having to train Small Specilization to lvl 4 in order to get Medium Specialization. It is pointless, and makes no sense. Does anyone have Large Specialization yet? Im on Medium Hybrid Spec level 4, training 5 now, Then i can start training large Hybrid Spec level 1, i allready got Gallante BS 5 and Large Hybrid 5... ________________ Aneu Angellus Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:50:00 - [245] Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer somehow cuts down the speciality of dedicated frigate- (or cruiser-) jockeys... Don't tell me man....
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.09.30 13:50:00 - [246] Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer somehow cuts down the speciality of dedicated frigate- (or cruiser-) jockeys... Don't tell me man....
shivan	Posted - 2004.09.30 14:43:00 - [247] Im a battleship piloit and think these new skills are good, not only does it mean i might have to wait a while before i can use something, but it means that i cant specilize in all the large guns in a couple of weeks, seeing as i got sharpshooter 5 before the guns where even on the market. Not to mention all the other skill i need to start specilizing in projectilles. Thing is, its not going for a certain size of gun, your specilizeing in a race of gun, then what type, so in my case im speclizing in projectilles, then either auto cannons or artys. Open your eyes and see what CCP are trying to do. I could learn large proctilles till i had learnt medium, and not medium till i had small, why shold specelizing in say large arty be any different, i need to know how to do them tricks with small guns and work my way up. Only my 2 cents and what i think, but hey, every1 else is entitled to ur own opipions. --------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
shivan	Posted - 2004.09.30 14:43:00 - [248] Im a battleship piloit and think these new skills are good, not only does it mean i might have to wait a while before i can use something, but it means that i cant specilize in all the large guns in a couple of weeks, seeing as i got sharpshooter 5 before the guns where even on the market. Not to mention all the other skill i need to start specilizing in projectilles. Thing is, its not going for a certain size of gun, your specilizeing in a race of gun, then what type, so in my case im speclizing in projectilles, then either auto cannons or artys. Open your eyes and see what CCP are trying to do. I could learn large proctilles till i had learnt medium, and not medium till i had small, why shold specelizing in say large arty be any different, i need to know how to do them tricks with small guns and work my way up. Only my 2 cents and what i think, but hey, every1 else is entitled to ur own opipions. --------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
BoBoZoBo	Posted - 2004.09.30 15:53:00 - [249] Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 16:00:08 Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 15:59:25 How can you master bigger and better if you have not mastered the small and easy? You think that you could be a good at hyperdimetional physics if you could not master addition? or fly a spaceshuttle without the ablilty to be a badss in a cropduster? or start college without graduating highschool? or leatrn advanced hand combat without basic physical endurance? or handle high-power/ high-calible weapons without being a hotshot with smaller arms? You need to master the basics before you can be good at the advanced stuff. CCPs logic is understandable. ========================= Operator 9*
BoBoZoBo	Posted - 2004.09.30 15:53:00 - [250] Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 16:00:08 Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 15:59:25 How can you master bigger and better if you have not mastered the small and easy? You think that you could be a good at hyperdimetional physics if you could not master addition? or fly a spaceshuttle without the ablilty to be a badss in a cropduster? or start college without graduating highschool? or leatrn advanced hand combat without basic physical endurance? or handle high-power/ high-calible weapons without being a hotshot with smaller arms? You need to master the basics before you can be good at the advanced stuff. CCPs logic is understandable. ========================= Operator 9*
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.09.30 16:02:00 - [251] Originally by: BoBoZoBo Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 16:00:08 Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 15:59:25 How can you master bigger and better if you have not mastered the small and easy? You think that you could be a good at hyperdimetional physics if you could not master addition? or fly a spaceshuttle without the ablilty to be a badss in a cropduster? or start college without graduating highschool? or leatrn advanced hand combat without basic physical endurance? or handle high-power/ high-calible weapons without being a hotshot with smaller arms? You need to master the basics before you can be good at the advanced stuff. CCPs logic is understandable. The usefulness of RL analogies apart... Probably not, but you can learn how to: - fire a stinger without ever touching a M-16 - fire a M-60 without ever touching a M-16 - fire a M-16 without ever touching a gloack pistol - fly a plane without knowing how to bike... It's not plausible, it's possible*
jukriamrr	Posted - 2004.09.30 16:02:00 - [252] Originally by: BoBoZoBo Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 16:00:08 Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 15:59:25 How can you master bigger and better if you have not mastered the small and easy? You think that you could be a good at hyperdimetional physics if you could not master addition? or fly a spaceshuttle without the ablilty to be a badss in a cropduster? or start college without graduating highschool? or leatrn advanced hand combat without basic physical endurance? or handle high-power/ high-calible weapons without being a hotshot with smaller arms? You need to master the basics before you can be good at the advanced stuff. CCPs logic is understandable. The usefulness of RL analogies apart... Probably not, but you can learn how to: - fire a stinger without ever touching a M-16 - fire a M-60 without ever touching a M-16 - fire a M-16 without ever touching a gloack pistol - fly a plane without knowing how to bike... It's not plausible, it's possible*
BoBoZoBo	Posted - 2004.09.30 16:16:00 - [253] Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 16:22:02 I fail to see how the analogy applies, Please note how I stayed in the same category Bikes and airplanes are apples and oranges. bikes to motorbikes maybe. M-60, M-16, Stinger systems and a Glock pistol are all considered small arms so yes, you would do those things, but you would still probably have a good understanding to small arms theory The question is would you handle the next size up wihout at least an good understanding and experience with the previous class. Anything is "possible" but on the average when playing with fire like that, you wanna know what the hell you are doing. Yes, that is RL and this is a game, there should ba a modifyer once you get to a certain level that increases the speed of lower calibre (not level) skills in the same category. But to say that specializing in something means that you should not have to learn the lower end of the skill is rediculous. If you SPECIALIZE in a certain type of medicine do you stop learining biology? NO.. you learn MORE of the basics so you can sharpen your specialization. ========================= Operator 9
BoBoZoBo	Posted - 2004.09.30 16:16:00 - [254] Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 30/09/2004 16:22:02 I fail to see how the analogy applies, Please note how I stayed in the same category Bikes and airplanes are apples and oranges. bikes to motorbikes maybe. M-60, M-16, Stinger systems and a Glock pistol are all considered small arms so yes, you would do those things, but you would still probably have a good understanding to small arms theory The question is would you handle the next size up wihout at least an good understanding and experience with the previous class. Anything is "possible" but on the average when playing with fire like that, you wanna know what the hell you are doing. Yes, that is RL and this is a game, there should ba a modifyer once you get to a certain level that increases the speed of lower calibre (not level) skills in the same category. But to say that specializing in something means that you should not have to learn the lower end of the skill is rediculous. If you SPECIALIZE in a certain type of medicine do you stop learining biology? NO.. you learn MORE of the basics so you can sharpen your specialization. ========================= Operator 9
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:02:00 - [255] Real life analogies aside, the current specialization training method brings us back to a situation wherein a battleship pilot can do everything. It doesn't make a battleship specialized. It makes him an all-rounder. Only a frigate pilot could be considered specialized because he only has to train the first step to receive his advantage. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:02:00 - [256] Real life analogies aside, the current specialization training method brings us back to a situation wherein a battleship pilot can do everything. It doesn't make a battleship specialized. It makes him an all-rounder. Only a frigate pilot could be considered specialized because he only has to train the first step to receive his advantage. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:03:00 - [257] "I fail to see how the analogy applies, Please note how I stayed in the same category" To stay on the 'same category' ground, the requirements are along the lines of requiring the would-be pilot of advanced, large passenger jets to first master the acrobatics with single-person plane. The pilot in question is expected to know how to fly a small plane. They are not expected to be ultimate expert in subjects relating strictly to these small planes, though. That's the difference between requiring specialization in the subject, and familiarity with the subject. "But to say that specializing in something means that you should not have to learn the lower end of the skill is rediculous. If you SPECIALIZE in a certain type of medicine do you stop learining biology? NO.. you learn MORE of the basics so you can sharpen your specialization." It's not what people are saying; having to learn lower end in order to specialize in the higher end is something very different from having to specialize in lower end in order to specialize in higher end. To use your analogy, it's like requiring expert in pediatrics to first become expert in gynaecology because hey, both concern the children so one should first become the expert on where they come from, right..? ;s
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:03:00 - [258] "I fail to see how the analogy applies, Please note how I stayed in the same category" To stay on the 'same category' ground, the requirements are along the lines of requiring the would-be pilot of advanced, large passenger jets to first master the acrobatics with single-person plane. The pilot in question is expected to know how to fly a small plane. They are not expected to be ultimate expert in subjects relating strictly to these small planes, though. That's the difference between requiring specialization in the subject, and familiarity with the subject. "But to say that specializing in something means that you should not have to learn the lower end of the skill is rediculous. If you SPECIALIZE in a certain type of medicine do you stop learining biology? NO.. you learn MORE of the basics so you can sharpen your specialization." It's not what people are saying; having to learn lower end in order to specialize in the higher end is something very different from having to specialize in lower end in order to specialize in higher end. To use your analogy, it's like requiring expert in pediatrics to first become expert in gynaecology because hey, both concern the children so one should first become the expert on where they come from, right..? ;s
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:05:00 - [259] j0? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:05:00 - [260] j0? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:17:00 - [261] ;p 'tis what you get for not training "Specialization: Forum Whoring, Corporation Discussions" all way to lvl.5 ... some info goes unnoticed -.^
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:17:00 - [262] ;p 'tis what you get for not training "Specialization: Forum Whoring, Corporation Discussions" all way to lvl.5 ... some info goes unnoticed -.^
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:20:00 - [263] Originally by: Number SixtyNine ;p 'tis what you get for not training "Specialization: Forum Whoring, Corporation Discussions" all way to lvl.5 ... some info goes unnoticed -.^ Glad to see you're back. If you need anything to help you get back into the swing of things, just send me an evemail. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:20:00 - [264] Originally by: Number SixtyNine ;p 'tis what you get for not training "Specialization: Forum Whoring, Corporation Discussions" all way to lvl.5 ... some info goes unnoticed -.^ Glad to see you're back. If you need anything to help you get back into the swing of things, just send me an evemail. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:34:00 - [265] Nahh, not back really atm... might try to reactivate the main after Shiva thingie, but it's just trial account so i'd post ;s But thanks, if i do check back will take liberty to pester you with some noobie questions.. ^^ ("hey am in New Caldari, wtf did the stargate to Nonni go o.O; <-- me, yesterday >>;
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 17:34:00 - [266] Nahh, not back really atm... might try to reactivate the main after Shiva thingie, but it's just trial account so i'd post ;s But thanks, if i do check back will take liberty to pester you with some noobie questions.. ^^ ("hey am in New Caldari, wtf did the stargate to Nonni go o.O; <-- me, yesterday >>;
BoBoZoBo	Posted - 2004.09.30 18:52:00 - [267] I agree with what you are saying, but I must admit you are wrong. The author was indicating small hybrids with larger ones, they are in a direct line with one another. Your would be right if he had to train small hybrids in order to train a high general weapons skill, but that is not the case. As far as the analogies, you and I are saying the same thing, but you analysis is tainted and shortened in order to support your thesis But, if you need to be right, so be it. My apologies, ========================= Operator 9
BoBoZoBo	Posted - 2004.09.30 18:52:00 - [268] I agree with what you are saying, but I must admit you are wrong. The author was indicating small hybrids with larger ones, they are in a direct line with one another. Your would be right if he had to train small hybrids in order to train a high general weapons skill, but that is not the case. As far as the analogies, you and I are saying the same thing, but you analysis is tainted and shortened in order to support your thesis But, if you need to be right, so be it. My apologies, ========================= Operator 9
Kaleigh Doyle	Posted - 2004.09.30 19:24:00 - [269] Edited by: Kaleigh Doyle on 30/09/2004 19:27:11 Just a silly question, but with the recent changes to turret tracking and all, hasn't CCP encouraged the usage of multiple gun sizes on a battleship(obviously depending on your roles)? Wouldn't it be advantageous for a Battleship pilots to have better skills in the smaller guns as well?(i.e. to be an effective battleship pilot, you'll prolly wanna specialize in the smaller guns) Perhaps it was a subtle suggestion on the devs part. (edited for english readers ) Glamour Bunnies Entertainment Corporation
Kaleigh Doyle	Posted - 2004.09.30 19:24:00 - [270] Edited by: Kaleigh Doyle on 30/09/2004 19:27:11 Just a silly question, but with the recent changes to turret tracking and all, hasn't CCP encouraged the usage of multiple gun sizes on a battleship(obviously depending on your roles)? Wouldn't it be advantageous for a Battleship pilots to have better skills in the smaller guns as well?(i.e. to be an effective battleship pilot, you'll prolly wanna specialize in the smaller guns) Perhaps it was a subtle suggestion on the devs part. (edited for english readers ) Glamour Bunnies Entertainment Corporation
Winterblink	Posted - 2004.09.30 20:07:00 - [271] This is one of those slap me on the forehead moments where I totally agree with something Josh says that appears to have been completely obvious before. :) ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Winterblink	Posted - 2004.09.30 20:07:00 - [272] This is one of those slap me on the forehead moments where I totally agree with something Josh says that appears to have been completely obvious before. :) ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
shivan	Posted - 2004.09.30 20:44:00 - [273] Edited by: shivan on 30/09/2004 20:50:28 Well all I can say, is this, if you want to learn how to fight a fight jet, then you at least have to know how to fly a light aircraft. If you want to dogfight in the fighterjet, then you have to have your training in the lgiht aircraft first, to practice your manavoies before you try it out on the real thing which might kill you. I think having to specilize in the small arys to traing the large artys is right, simple cuz you will need to know how to do the basics, in this case small Speciliztion in small artys. There will always be a place for the frigs and crusiers piloits out there, simple cuz, i went from being a bs guy to flying a frig and it took me a while to get used to the pace of it all. So regardless of the skills needed, a frig dude that does nothin but fly frigs in combat will still be better at it than a guy who normaly flys a bs in PvP and its his first day in a frig. Its called EXPERENCE --------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
shivan	Posted - 2004.09.30 20:44:00 - [274] Edited by: shivan on 30/09/2004 20:50:28 Well all I can say, is this, if you want to learn how to fight a fight jet, then you at least have to know how to fly a light aircraft. If you want to dogfight in the fighterjet, then you have to have your training in the lgiht aircraft first, to practice your manavoies before you try it out on the real thing which might kill you. I think having to specilize in the small arys to traing the large artys is right, simple cuz you will need to know how to do the basics, in this case small Speciliztion in small artys. There will always be a place for the frigs and crusiers piloits out there, simple cuz, i went from being a bs guy to flying a frig and it took me a while to get used to the pace of it all. So regardless of the skills needed, a frig dude that does nothin but fly frigs in combat will still be better at it than a guy who normaly flys a bs in PvP and its his first day in a frig. Its called EXPERENCE --------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 20:56:00 - [275] "I agree with what you are saying, but I must admit you are wrong." I think it boils down to the wording, really. "Specialization" just isn't most fortunate name for the skill in question, as it implies one who trains it becomes some sort of ultimate expert in given branch of weaponry. If it was something like "advanced knowledge" instead it'd probably be easier to swallow. ^^
Number SixtyNine	Posted - 2004.09.30 20:56:00 - [276] "I agree with what you are saying, but I must admit you are wrong." I think it boils down to the wording, really. "Specialization" just isn't most fortunate name for the skill in question, as it implies one who trains it becomes some sort of ultimate expert in given branch of weaponry. If it was something like "advanced knowledge" instead it'd probably be easier to swallow. ^^
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.10.01 01:02:00 - [277] Originally by: Joshua Calvert It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. quit moaning you got most of them anyway.... and why not make it harder to gain an advantage?
Kai Duracknar	Posted - 2004.10.01 01:02:00 - [278] Originally by: Joshua Calvert It goes against the very idea of specialization and, to be honest, I think this is just another silent nerf on battleship users. quit moaning you got most of them anyway.... and why not make it harder to gain an advantage?
mk ultra	Posted - 2004.10.01 04:23:00 - [279] Edited by: mk ultra on 01/10/2004 04:27:48 Edited by: mk ultra on 01/10/2004 04:26:42 Didnt want to read the whole thread cause its now too damn long . This probably have been said somewhere in the post but heh here is my 2 cents .I think by specialization they mean either projectile , hybrid or laser specialization ...to have them all would require a lot of time so you better choose your type and stick with it . Which is why you need to know everything about hybrids before being able to use t2 Large guns ... ------------------------ <Beeth> Girls are like internet domain names, the ones I like are already taken. <honx> well, you can stil get one from a strange country :-P
mk ultra	Posted - 2004.10.01 04:23:00 - [280] Edited by: mk ultra on 01/10/2004 04:27:48 Edited by: mk ultra on 01/10/2004 04:26:42 Didnt want to read the whole thread cause its now too damn long . This probably have been said somewhere in the post but heh here is my 2 cents .I think by specialization they mean either projectile , hybrid or laser specialization ...to have them all would require a lot of time so you better choose your type and stick with it . Which is why you need to know everything about hybrids before being able to use t2 Large guns ... ------------------------ <Beeth> Girls are like internet domain names, the ones I like are already taken. <honx> well, you can stil get one from a strange country :-P
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.10.01 06:32:00 - [281] Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle Edited by: Kaleigh Doyle on 30/09/2004 19:27:11 Just a silly question, but with the recent changes to turret tracking and all, hasn't CCP encouraged the usage of multiple gun sizes on a battleship(obviously depending on your roles)? Wouldn't it be advantageous for a Battleship pilots to have better skills in the smaller guns as well?(i.e. to be an effective battleship pilot, you'll prolly wanna specialize in the smaller guns) Perhaps it was a subtle suggestion on the devs part. (edited for english readers ) If I want to specialize in small or medium guns to allow me to fit those smaller weapons more effectively, then I agree. However, the current system FORCES that choice. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.10.01 06:32:00 - [282] Originally by: Kaleigh Doyle Edited by: Kaleigh Doyle on 30/09/2004 19:27:11 Just a silly question, but with the recent changes to turret tracking and all, hasn't CCP encouraged the usage of multiple gun sizes on a battleship(obviously depending on your roles)? Wouldn't it be advantageous for a Battleship pilots to have better skills in the smaller guns as well?(i.e. to be an effective battleship pilot, you'll prolly wanna specialize in the smaller guns) Perhaps it was a subtle suggestion on the devs part. (edited for english readers ) If I want to specialize in small or medium guns to allow me to fit those smaller weapons more effectively, then I agree. However, the current system FORCES that choice. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.10.01 06:50:00 - [283] Not only that, people who do want to train only small or medium lose the ability to be unique because people who get the large specializations will be just as capable as they are with medium or small specialized weaponry. CCP is just furthering the "Battlship be-all-end-all" personality, though this time, it wont be the battleships themselves that may destroy everything, it will be the individual characters. I'm really surprised that there havent been any devs to post in this thread to set the record straight, though I guess I can say thats because they cant set the record straight because this entire specialization thing was a stupid idea to begin with and they really dont have a cohesive plan for it. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.10.01 06:50:00 - [284] Not only that, people who do want to train only small or medium lose the ability to be unique because people who get the large specializations will be just as capable as they are with medium or small specialized weaponry. CCP is just furthering the "Battlship be-all-end-all" personality, though this time, it wont be the battleships themselves that may destroy everything, it will be the individual characters. I'm really surprised that there havent been any devs to post in this thread to set the record straight, though I guess I can say thats because they cant set the record straight because this entire specialization thing was a stupid idea to begin with and they really dont have a cohesive plan for it. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Kileak	Posted - 2004.10.02 11:46:00 - [285] i dunno if it's good or bad or what not. but i have trained large spec to lvl 3 for pulse and will get large beam in a week or so. i was kinda running out of stuff to train for amarr type ships specially battleships but as it stands i think i got about 4 mroe months of training now due to the crazy rank and sp needed to master these skills. for those of us who prefer one race ships and weapon type it gives us something to do. i mean i don't wanna train production or science skills. and why fly another bs when i got my apoc. dunno simple view i guess. but then again allways wondered why i can have 6mil sp in gunnery and feal threated by a guy with 1mil sp in missles. seems sorta unbalanced
Kileak	Posted - 2004.10.02 11:46:00 - [286] i dunno if it's good or bad or what not. but i have trained large spec to lvl 3 for pulse and will get large beam in a week or so. i was kinda running out of stuff to train for amarr type ships specially battleships but as it stands i think i got about 4 mroe months of training now due to the crazy rank and sp needed to master these skills. for those of us who prefer one race ships and weapon type it gives us something to do. i mean i don't wanna train production or science skills. and why fly another bs when i got my apoc. dunno simple view i guess. but then again allways wondered why i can have 6mil sp in gunnery and feal threated by a guy with 1mil sp in missles. seems sorta unbalanced

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