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Is this an EULA violation or valid scam?

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Kavu Genos Occidere The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.05.12 17:55:00 - [271] The page 10 snipe is an elusive creature known only to a few ~~~~
Kaptain Klo	Posted - 2009.05.12 18:14:00 - [272] Still here, and petition still In Action. In the interest of not discussing active rulings, I'll wait till the end of everything to give a general outline of what is going on. I hadn't meant for the logs that the seller posted to get up here, as it does describe specifics of current petition action. But I guess that's what I get for being civil and keeping him informed. I should have learned the first time.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.05.12 18:25:00 - [273] Originally by: Lady Cynosural I would also imagine, that as one of the largest single scams in eve - and of a character based nature, they would take the time and consideration to investigate it properly. If they haven't, then that's quite poor customer service. It's a reasonable possibility that Kaptain Klo is buffing as a last ditch attempt to panic me into giving him the money. Lmao. Largets single scams in eve? Dream on. Did you get a state Apoc? Did you scam trillions of isk out of thousands of players? Did you singlehandedly dismantle one of the largest alliances in eve? No, no, and no. Seeing as how the initial GM decision that was in your favor was retracted, I would guess that you should be the one worrying, not Klo.
Weight What	Posted - 2009.05.12 21:24:00 - [274] Originally by: Kavu The page 10 snipe is an elusive creature known only to a few ~~~~ Originally by: Magic Dragonrider Tao Ball A pompous man knows. But he realises to do so would be arrogant. Make book on racetrack, and suffer. ----------------------------------------------- Annonymous, trading as "Weight What".
Daevok silstream	Posted - 2009.05.12 22:53:00 - [275] Originally by: g0ggalor Lmao. Largets single scams in eve? Dream on. Did you get a state Apoc? Did you scam trillions of isk out of thousands of players? Did you singlehandedly dismantle one of the largest alliances in eve? No, no, and no. Single scam= one person, why are you pulling out "thousands of players" or singlehandedly dismantle..blah blah. He did a single scam on one player which would equate to one of the largests 'single' scams in eve. This is a straw man argument buddy. Would you like lessons on plurals and single denotations of the english language?
Amy Mouse Intersteller Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.05.13 00:54:00 - [276] page 10 snipe! i love cookies
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.05.13 01:25:00 - [277] Originally by: Daevok silstream Originally by: g0ggalor Lmao. Largets single scams in eve? Dream on. Did you get a state Apoc? Did you scam trillions of isk out of thousands of players? Did you singlehandedly dismantle one of the largest alliances in eve? No, no, and no. Single scam= one person, why are you pulling out "thousands of players" or singlehandedly dismantle..blah blah. He did a single scam on one player which would equate to one of the largests 'single' scams in eve. This is a straw man argument buddy. Would you like lessons on plurals and single denotations of the english language? Yea for internet grammar police!
Lana Torrin Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2009.05.13 01:28:00 - [278] Originally by: Amy Mouse page 10 snipe! Ummmmmm.......
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.05.13 03:01:00 - [279] Originally by: Daevok silstream Originally by: g0ggalor Lmao. Largets single scams in eve? Dream on. Did you get a state Apoc? Did you scam trillions of isk out of thousands of players? Did you singlehandedly dismantle one of the largest alliances in eve? No, no, and no. Single scam= one person, why are you pulling out "thousands of players" or singlehandedly dismantle..blah blah. He did a single scam on one player which would equate to one of the largests 'single' scams in eve. This is a straw man argument buddy. Would you like lessons on plurals and single denotations of the english language? Actually the phrase "single scam" means exactly what it says. One scam. The number of impacted parties is irrelavant. I can scam 1 person, or I can scam 50 at the same time. I have still only committed a single scam. --Vel Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Trellish The Perfect Storm Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.05.13 04:03:00 - [280] Thanks for keeping us as updated as possible... I'm quite interested in this one. While it does sorta suck for the guy, I'm personally of the opinion that the scam should be allowed... mostly because the purchaser should have known that there is an official process for character transfers, and it doesn't include paying billions for a slepnir. It's definitely a gray area though, so I look forward to seeing where the chips fall.
Kavu Genos Occidere The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.05.13 04:09:00 - [281] Originally by: Lana Torrin Originally by: Amy Mouse page 10 snipe! Ummmmmm....... yeah i sniped page 10 what of it, lol and i believe you are far short of the single greatest scam as i can recall 800 billion being scammed
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.05.13 04:52:00 - [282] Originally by: Lady Cynosural Edited by: Lady Cynosural on 11/05/2009 15:57:14 I would also imagine, that as one of the largest single scams in eve Yeah, don't get too excited about being the largest scam... Blueprint Store
Liitar	Posted - 2009.05.13 05:59:00 - [283] Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: Lady Cynosural Edited by: Lady Cynosural on 11/05/2009 15:57:14 I would also imagine, that as one of the largest single scams in eve Yeah, don't get too excited about being the largest scam... Let him stroke his epeen, I mean, technically it is one of the largest scams in eve - just because if you ranked them this would be a dismal 1,000 or so in top hits, doesn't mean it wouldn't make it into a top1000 list Oh, and I can still see this being reversed, and I'll tell you why - I just petitioned the GMs to ask if I can do a certain scam using a character as bait, as I am sure everyone else that read this thread did - if it isn't overturned, CCP have about a week to implement a new system for character transfers or we are all going to be trillionaires
Pipecock Jackxon Gallente Certo Cita	Posted - 2009.05.13 10:02:00 - [284] tbh, this should be a valid scam... just like the 999,999,999 scam... He didn't read his contract. He deserves to loose all that isk, as he didnt know how to read a contract.. ----------------------- Thanatos - God of death (¬.¬)
floridajay	Posted - 2009.05.13 11:33:00 - [285] Ok . first off I dont see this as a scam that violates EULA in any way shape or form . Yes there was a post in the Character Bazzar forums . But.... one thing everyone in this form thread is not realizing is the isk Everybruce recieved was via contracts it was our friend here who didnt know wat he was doing . Its quite obvious that Everybruce has a very clever idea on his hand using the forums as a "convo starter" to see if they have a ammount of isk worth scamming people over .I Think it was a very clever scam imho . And to refresh your mind the isk wasnt transfered for a "character Transfer" was clearly for a "Slepnier" . Case Closed , doesnt take a GM or a Senior GM to figure this out .
denwo togu	Posted - 2009.05.13 13:38:00 - [286] Originally by: floridajay Ok . first off I dont see this as a scam that violates EULA in any way shape or form . Yes there was a post in the Character Bazzar forums . But.... one thing everyone in this form thread is not realizing is the isk Everybruce recieved was via contracts it was our friend here who didnt know wat he was doing . Its quite obvious that Everybruce has a very clever idea on his hand using the forums as a "convo starter" to see if they have a ammount of isk worth scamming people over .I Think it was a very clever scam imho . And to refresh your mind the isk wasnt transfered for a "character Transfer" was clearly for a "Slepnier" . Case Closed , doesnt take a GM or a Senior GM to figure this out . I have to agree. The bottom line is that you can't con an honest man. I'm not saying the buyer was dishonest, but the buyer went around the process. Honest intentions or not, going around the process loses you the protection that the process provides. There are strict guidelines about char sales for a reason. Circumventing them for any reason, even with good intentions, SHOULD leave you open to be scammed.
Smokkmeballs	Posted - 2009.05.13 15:38:00 - [287] Just have the guy accept his loss, so what if he was to stupid to actually follow the rules of character transfers! If he wanted it to be legit, he shouldve followed the the rules clearly laid down on the site!
floridajay	Posted - 2009.05.13 18:00:00 - [288] I mean am i right or am i wrong here the guy clearly scammd with contract which is no violation to EULA . The "ONLY" way i see this as a scam is if the owner of the character had ABSOLUTLY NO intentions on selling the character . And from what im reading the owner found himself a weak target and sold him a "Slepnier" for 17.5billion isk ... I say the guy should beable to keep his toon seeing that we will never know if he HONESTLY was gunna sell the character or not .
igil	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:16:00 - [289] I have to wonder if the last several posts are just alts of the OP trying to strengthen his case for himself again. You people seem to be clearly ignorant of the entire situation at this point, and altogether ignorant of character transfer mechanics (or the lack thereof). There is no mechanic to send isk for a character. The isk has to be given via a "Give Money," a trade, or a contract. It is quite clear from the logs that the ship was considered a part of the deal, and that the money paid was intended for the character as well. The only real rule regarding character transfers is that there has to be a forum post advertising the character, and there was. The rule for not including assets on a character does not apply in this case. The purpose of that rule is to prevent sellers from saying "I also have a slepnir on this character that you will receive when you get it, so give me some extra money," and then not delivering on the asset. This contract was a way to circumvent the rule. The rule does NOT say that you may not trade assets as a package deal IN ADDITION to char transfer, it just states that there can be no assets on the character AT THE TIME OF TRANSFER. A large difference. To be honest though, this rule is very unclear can be twisted in any way depending on how a particular person decides to interpret it. This is part of the reason why there is a no tolerance policy for character transfer scams. When it comes down to it, it is not a matter of whether or not an item was included in the deal. The violation here is that the seller advertised a character, discussed the sale with a potential buyer, received money at an agreed upon price, and then didn't deliver on the character. The fact that the Seller hasn't made a post in several days now is also quite interesting.
Lady Cynosural	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:41:00 - [290] interesting? Things are developing - I won't go into details as the GM on his side is acting very, very oddly indeed and very unprofessionally so i've included that to the GM dealing with my petition (which, by the way - the decision still stands on).
Neacail	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:44:00 - [291] Edited by: Neacail on 13/05/2009 19:44:56 Edit; Failed snipe. Misread number of replies. Move along.
denwo togu	Posted - 2009.05.13 19:51:00 - [292] .
Ta'jek Angels Of Death EVE Free Worlds Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.13 21:46:00 - [293] nothing else been an interesting thread to follow
floridajay	Posted - 2009.05.13 23:29:00 - [294] Originally by: igil Edited by: igil on 13/05/2009 19:36:13 I have to wonder if the last several posts are just alts of the OP trying to strengthen his case for himself again. You people seem to be clearly ignorant of the entire situation at this point, and altogether ignorant of character transfer mechanics (or the lack thereof). There is no mechanic to send isk for a character. The isk has to be given via a "Give Money," a trade, or a contract. There is also no rule saying how the money must be given, only that the character being sold must receive it. In which case, if a character were being sold for 13b and the money was sent via contract, and then the character wasn't transferred, then the contract IS an EULA violation. It is quite clear from the logs that the ship was considered a part of the deal, and that the money paid via contract was intended for the character as well. The only real rule regarding character transfers is that there has to be a forum post advertising the character, and there was. The rule for not including assets on a character does not apply in this case. The purpose of that rule is to prevent sellers from saying "I also have a slepnir on this character that you will receive when you get it, so give me some extra money," and then not delivering on the asset. This contract was a means of legally circumventing the rule. The rule does NOT say that you may not trade assets as a package deal IN ADDITION to char transfer, it just states that there can be no assets on the character AT THE TIME OF TRANSFER. A large difference. To be honest though, this rule is very unclear and can be twisted in any way depending on how a particular person decides to interpret it. This is part of the reason why there is a no tolerance policy for character transfer scams. When it comes down to it, it is not a matter of whether or not an item was included in the deal. The violation here is that the seller advertised a character, discussed the sale with a potential buyer, received money at an agreed upon price, and then didn't deliver on the character. The fact that the Seller hasn't made a post in several days now is also quite interesting. Are you a total ****tard? the isk was clearly given for the "slepnier" therefore the isk was not intended for the character ... Because if it was ... its his own fault for not following the guidelines of character trade .Also the rules DO say that your NOT allowed to included assets in character trades . Hence the sale of the Slepnier . Now you remark about him not posting in a few days is false the cyno char is the seller . And you cant prove he was scamming because of the fact you cant prove he had no intentions on sell the char so therefore you need to stfu or show some hard evidence because all your saying at the moment is false accusations . end of story .
LepurKhan	Posted - 2009.05.14 00:15:00 - [295] Edited by: LepurKhan on 14/05/2009 00:16:09 Originally by: floridajay I mean am i right or AM I WRONG HERE This made me REALLY laugh after seeing your responses to any sort of criticism. You freaked out when this Igil guy said something along the lines of "your wrong." Your response was like a little two year old that had his TOY TAKEN AWAY... If you ask "am I right or wrong" and some one says wrong maybe you shouldn't freak out so much? Oh btw I made sure to put the interesting parts in all CAPS like you seem to love doing.
igil	Posted - 2009.05.14 00:42:00 - [296] Originally by: Lady Cynosural And for the record, I didn't plan it all along - I capitalised on an opportunity. He intended to sell originally and backed out after "selling the slepnir" and receiving the money (intended for both ship and character). = not allowed. Originally by: CCP Mitnal The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK. It says the character must be stripped and that items cannot be included among its assets. Items were not listed among its assets, they were contracted on the side. Nowhere does it says you cannot contract assets in addition to the character trade. By saying that ships and items can be readily bought on the market, it can be inferred that contracts both public and private are included among market transactions. As I stated before, this rule can be interpreted in many ways and by no means do I claim to have the 100% correct interpretation. I'm just trying to give you a different perspective to look at the situation from. Though it seems no matter what I write here you won't think about the issue differently, you'll just troll the thread. As stated by many people before me, there is no reason for the price of the slepnir to be 17.5 billion UNLESS you use the sale of the character as an included part of the trade. In this sense you cannot separate the character sale from the slepnir sale because the price matches exactly to the agreed upon price for the character. IF he had sold the ship for 999,999,999.99 then it would have been a legit scam. Instead he accepted money in the amount of an agreed upon price for a character + ship and didn't deliver on the character. You cannot put up an imaginary wall between the sale of the character and the ship just because it is easy to do so. It is simply TOO convenient that the price of the contract matches, and there is a certain amount of common sense that must be taken into account when dealing with this situation. Bottom line (if you accept that the ship and character trades are part of one deal, which from the price of the contract and the agreed upon price for the ship+character they are): If the seller originally intended to sell the character (which he says he did) and didn't do so after receiving the money, then he needs to either transfer the character or give the money back. He didn't deliver on what was agreed upon for the set price. If he had no intention of selling the character to begin with (which would be a dumb decision since he advertised), then he clearly used the character as bait for the slepnir contract and deserves an immediate ban. You make some valid points that the contract is only for the Slepnir and thus the money is only for the slepnir, but common sense dictates otherwise. The seller made the dumb decision of trying to make a contract scam using the agreed upon price for the character transfer, and if CCP doesn't have the common sense to see that, then I fear what we might see happening on the character bazaar in the future. As for the seller not posting for a few days, I'm aware that Lady C is the seller. If you look, you'll see that at the time of my post, she hadn't posted for 1.5-2 days. ;)
floridajay	Posted - 2009.05.14 01:41:00 - [297] Originally by: igil Edited by: igil on 14/05/2009 01:19:54 Originally by: Lady Cynosural And for the record, I didn't plan it all along - I capitalised on an opportunity. He intended to sell originally and backed out after "selling the slepnir" and receiving the money (intended for both ship and character). = not allowed. Originally by: CCP Mitnal The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK. Are you a total moron ? Did your mother drop you when you were a child ? ffs man "The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred" now you answere your own question he HAD to sell the slepnier before commiting to a sale . he then knew the guy had 17.5 billion isk so he scammd him with a legit scam via contracts no where in those chat logs does it say buy this slepnier for 17.5 billion and ill send the character
Misanth The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.05.14 01:46:00 - [298] Originally by: igil Originally by: CCP Mitnal The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK. It says the character must be stripped and that items cannot be included among its assets. Items were not listed among its assets, they were contracted on the side. Just pointing out it says ingame assets of any significant value, which also is why we have to state what assets come with the character when we sell it. It's perfectly fine to sell a character with assets, they can't just have a high value. I sold a character and dropped a regular battleship with fitting with it, which I listed in my sale. All according to rules. It has no significant value. The difinition of significant (or not), I guess, is all up to the GM/CCP whenever they are pulled into a situation like this one. Either they think a Sleipnir worth 17,5bil is an asset of significant value, or they think that someone paying 17,5bil for an asset without significant value, just got scammed, like any person paying over market value for xyz mod. As for the discussion whether the Sleipnir being related to the sale or not.. well, that doesn't matter what we think either. Again, that's up to CCP to decide. It'll show us players where their policy is on this matter. We know that CCP doesn't take lightly on scams related to character sales, so we can guess they don't like this situation. But at the end of the day, that's just a guess. OP is taking some great risk here, but it might just pay off. It's not a direct violation of any rules, as nothing was stated, but it might very well be an indirect violation. CCP owns the "intellectual property" of this game and ultimately it's their choice. Eh, I got carried away. My point was to quote the dude above. Assets can be included, it's the value of the assets that matter, not assets in themselves. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
igil	Posted - 2009.05.14 01:56:00 - [299] Edited by: igil on 14/05/2009 01:59:04 Originally by: floridajay Are you a total moron ? Did your mother drop you when you were a child ? ffs man "The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred" now you answere your own question he HAD to sell the slepnier before commiting to a sale . he then knew the guy had 17.5 billion isk so he scammd him with a legit scam via contracts no where in those chat logs does it say buy this slepnier for 17.5 billion and ill send the character Thank you for confirming that the only thing you're good for is trolling. I'm glad to see that it's ok to judge someone a moron when only taking small portion of their argument into context. Did you even read my entire post? Since this thread has gone downhill I won't be posting any further until we have some sort of official response. The only reason I responded to your last post was because you felt it necessary to attack me, and I felt it necessary to defend. Now I see the futility. ;) @ Misanth: That really is the bottom line here, it all depends on what CCP makes of the situation. I would hope they have enough common sense to see that the buyer was baited with a character transfer, something they claim to have zero tolerance for.
Lana Torrin Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2009.05.14 02:05:00 - [300] This is a setup for a page 11 snipe.

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