Quote:

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Channel ID: 2143102800
Channel Name: Private Chat (alone)
Listener: ME
Session started: 2009.05.03 15:22:09
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[ 2009.05.03 15:22:15 ] ME > hey, sorry.. i was out
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:17 ] HIM > np
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:20 ] HIM > just got back myself
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:38 ] ME > ah hello
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:41 ] HIM > lo =)
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:59 ] ME > your offer certainly interests me
[ 2009.05.03 15:33:40 ] HIM > Good to hear :)
[ 2009.05.03 15:34:45 ] ME > one sec, making a petition
[ 2009.05.03 15:34:51 ] HIM > kk
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:22 ] ME > okay :)
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:36 ] ME > would you want any assets with the character?
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:45 ] ME > I can chuck in a fitted thanatos, sleipnir, hurricane + rapier in the mix
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:50 ] ME > they can come in the thanatos' ship bay
[ 2009.05.03 15:39:31 ] HIM > While I wouldn't mind them, unfortunately I don't have the extra isk to toss in to compensate
[ 2009.05.03 15:40:52 ] HIM > Atm I am consolidating assets, but I don't see being able to come up with much more than 17.5b.
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:08 ] ME > aha no problem, I can sell them off myself
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:26 ] HIM > k :)
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:31 ] ME > though I would perhaps look for a bit more than 17b for ed, just a little more
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:46 ] ME > if you were to go to 17.5 I could chuck in the sleipnir
[ 2009.05.03 15:42:05 ] HIM > Hmm.
[ 2009.05.03 15:42:30 ] HIM > It's in the cards, have to round off a few variables first.
[ 2009.05.03 15:43:16 ] HIM > I have around 1.9b in ship assets (A Vargur + Maelstrom) to get off my hands, depending on what I have to let those go for, I'll see what I can do.
[ 2009.05.03 15:43:39 ] ME > im not in a massive rush to sell, as in, I can give you time to reach that
[ 2009.05.03 15:43:49 ] ME > as i'll have to line up a new char to buy
[ 2009.05.03 15:45:59 ] HIM > Very similar position to what I am in :)
[ 2009.05.03 15:47:28 ] ME > oh?
[ 2009.05.03 15:48:15 ] HIM > This character is being sold, you're one of my potentional upgrades :P
[ 2009.05.03 15:48:39 ] ME > aha I see
[ 2009.05.03 15:51:48 ] ME > got a link to your char?
[ 2009.05.03 15:53:00 ] HIM > SUre, sec.
[ 2009.05.03 15:53:07 ] HIM > http://eve-sheet.com/skills/Rho_Jones
[ 2009.05.03 15:53:25 ] HIM > Fairly similar to Ed, just less SP and a different crosstrain
[ 2009.05.03 15:57:05 ] ME > aha will look now
[ 2009.05.03 16:02:24 ] ME > aha not for me :)
[ 2009.05.03 16:02:34 ] ME > if i sell ed i will have like 25b to spend on a char :)
[ 2009.05.03 16:02:35 ] HIM > I already have a buyer, so that's ok :)
[ 2009.05.03 16:02:48 ] ME > so when do you think you can buy ed?
[ 2009.05.03 16:03:31 ] HIM > Well, I'm 90% certain I can get this characters sale completed in a matter of hours. That just leaves the sale of my Vargur / Maelstrom.
[ 2009.05.03 16:09:26 ] ME > aha righto
[ 2009.05.03 16:49:23 ] HIM > Alright, might be ready to roll in a matter of 30-60minutes
[ 2009.05.03 16:49:54 ] ME > I will have to get some stuff sorted
[ 2009.05.03 16:49:57 ] ME > gathering of assets and that
[ 2009.05.03 16:51:19 ] HIM > Certainly
[ 2009.05.03 17:04:44 ] HIM > Just curious on a timeframe that we're looking at - hours or a day or two?
[ 2009.05.03 17:06:41 ] ME > a few horus I think
[ 2009.05.03 17:06:43 ] ME > are you on tonight?

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Quote:

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[ 2009.05.03 17:06:43 ] ME > are you on tonight?
[ 2009.05.03 17:19:59 ] HIM > I'll be leaving in about 2 hours, and back on after about 6 hours. Then I will be available for several hours in the evening
[ 2009.05.03 17:20:14 ] HIM > But I don't have a problem sending the isk and awaiting transfer if you wanted to get it done while I was away.
[ 2009.05.03 17:21:01 ] ME > okay, can wait until tomorrow I think would be better
[ 2009.05.03 17:21:03 ] ME > I live on EU time
[ 2009.05.03 17:21:10 ] ME > so in 8 hours it's like 2am for me
[ 2009.05.03 17:21:15 ] HIM > aye.
[ 2009.05.03 17:27:10 ] ME > sure, could well do that
[ 2009.05.03 17:27:14 ] ME > will let you know for sure in a minute
[ 2009.05.03 17:35:09 ] HIM > kk
[ 2009.05.03 17:38:58 ] ME > any chance you could go up to 18?
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:02 ] ME > will include the carrier for that
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:35 ] HIM > hmm
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:01 ] ME > character forum says I cant include assets ont he char
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:05 ] ME > so will contract them to you separately
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:14 ] ME > nvm the thanatos
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:17 ] ME > have a corp buyer for it
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:46 ] HIM > kk, 17.5 it is then :P
[ 2009.05.03 17:43:00 ] ME > you are selling rho?
[ 2009.05.03 17:43:04 ] ME > or selling another char
[ 2009.05.03 17:43:21 ] HIM > Rho.
[ 2009.05.03 17:44:19 ] ME > ah i will delete that contract then
[ 2009.05.03 17:44:41 ] HIM > Ah np, I can contract it from rho to my alt before transfer, no worries
[ 2009.05.03 17:44:52 ] ME > ah will remake it
[ 2009.05.03 17:44:56 ] HIM > :P
[ 2009.05.03 17:45:02 ] HIM > For the Sleip I presume?
[ 2009.05.03 17:45:06 ] ME > aye
[ 2009.05.03 17:45:14 ] HIM > Set it up for 500m
[ 2009.05.03 17:45:30 ] HIM > I will send the other 17b shortly
[ 2009.05.03 17:46:32 ] ME > afk going to pick someone up
[ 2009.05.03 17:46:34 ] ME > will be back in about 45 mins
[ 2009.05.03 17:46:36 ] HIM > kk
[ 2009.05.03 17:46:56 ] HIM > I will transfer the isk during that time probably. I will send a mail with the account to transfer to
[ 2009.05.03 17:47:06 ] HIM > and a contact to talk with me in the future

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Channel ID: 2143110440
Channel Name: Private Chat (alone)
Listener: ME
Session started: 2009.05.03 18:36:17
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[ 2009.05.03 18:38:47 ] ME > hey
[ 2009.05.03 18:43:57 ] HIM > lo
[ 2009.05.03 18:44:53 ] HIM > Alright, so I'm prepared to send the isk now, and have you transfer the character sometime tonight or tomorrow morning (obviously prefer tonight, but I'm pretty flexible).
[ 2009.05.03 18:45:38 ] ME > what about the sleipnir?
[ 2009.05.03 18:45:51 ] HIM > Either contract it now to Rho, or contract it later to Toscaria
[ 2009.05.03 18:46:15 ] ME > contract is there now
[ 2009.05.03 18:46:24 ] HIM > Not seeing it
[ 2009.05.03 18:47:14 ] HIM > Set it up as a Item Exchange, private to HIM, 500m as price
[ 2009.05.03 18:47:20 ] ME > [Multiple Items]
[ 2009.05.03 18:47:30 ] HIM > Ah, I see.
[ 2009.05.03 18:47:45 ] HIM > Odd that it doesn't show up
[ 2009.05.03 18:47:56 ] HIM > Ah, nm found it.
[ 2009.05.03 18:48:33 ] HIM > heh, out in 0.0, suppose I can manage something.
[ 2009.05.03 18:50:26 ] ME > not a place well frequented
[ 2009.05.03 18:50:33 ] HIM > Some irony that I used to live there. Anyway accepting now.
[ 2009.05.03 18:51:49 ] ME > you just bought one goddamn expensive sleipnir
[ 2009.05.03 18:51:57 ] HIM > :P
[ 2009.05.03 18:52:30 ] HIM > For the transfer specifics, the account name is: 1337pyrax
[ 2009.05.03 18:52:46 ] HIM > Give me 30 seconds to clear up a character slot (character is pre-deleted just needs to be finalized)
[ 2009.05.03 18:52:50 ] ME > will be online tomorrow morning

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[ 2009.05.03 18:52:50 ] ME > will be online tomorrow morning about 09:00 eve time
[ 2009.05.03 18:52:51 ] HIM > Brb
[ 2009.05.03 18:53:00 ] HIM > kk
[ 2009.05.03 18:53:01 ] ME > girlfriend wants me over tonight
[ 2009.05.03 18:53:08 ] HIM > That's fine.
[ 2009.05.03 18:53:21 ] HIM > Your future contact after transfer is HIS ALT
[ 2009.05.03 18:53:41 ] HIM > Will send a mail to confirm account name and various details
[ 2009.05.03 18:55:08 ] ME > HIS ALT
[ 2009.05.03 18:55:20 ] HIM > Yep - Info mailed
[ 2009.05.03 18:55:34 ] HIM > Any questions?
[ 2009.05.03 18:59:46 ] ME > its ok
[ 2009.05.03 18:59:50 ] ME > on phone
[ 2009.05.03 19:01:40 ] HIM > Alright, going to transfer this character to it's new buyer. Send any questions you have in the future to HIS ALT, my alt. o7
[ 2009.05.03 19:01:47 ] ME > plau
[ 2009.05.03 19:01:48 ] ME > okay

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Originally by: Jimer Lins

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Character scams are not allowed. Only CCP can tell you if what you did was a EULA violation.

They'll tell you by banning your account if it was. I doubt that whether you've returned anything will factor into their decision.

So, here's the possible outcomes I see:

1) Not a EULA violation, you keep ISK.
2) EULA violation, you get a stern warning, he gets ISK back.
3) EULA violation, you get banned, he gets ISK back.

In any case, I'd avoid spending the ISK, as if you get #2, you'll want to have a positive wallet balance.

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Originally by: Jasper Dark

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I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!

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Originally by: Myra2007

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Look, the only real answer can be given by gms. Tbh though - and thats purely my gut feeling speaking there - i think you might be in trouble.

I do think character scams are forbidden and i don't think this rule is restricted to the character bazar.

However now that is just freaking hilarious. How can people raise 17.5b in this game and not realize they're being set up like that?

The chatlogs also contain character names and whats more important an account name. Personally i'd strongly advise you to at least remove the account name from the logs as posting real life or account info of people is prohibited iirc.

Also don't forget to let us know what the official answer is. You must not post gm replies here, but paraphrasing the content is within the rules from what i've seen.

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Originally by: Apoctasy

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tbh it just sounds like a regular scam. You weren't specifically scamming him out of a character, such as for example making him pay 117 billion for a crappy char you lied about. You just socially engineered him to accept a sleipnir contract for 17 billion.

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Originally by: Jimer Lins

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Originally by: Apoctasy

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tbh it just sounds like a regular scam. You weren't specifically scamming him out of a character, such as for example making him pay 117 billion for a crappy char you lied about. You just socially engineered him to accept a sleipnir contract for 17 billion.

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The problem is that unlike other scam types, the character data cannot be verified, which is why CCP says specifically that scams involving characters are not allowed. All other scamming and lying in the game is allowed so long as the victim could have verified something along the way.

I'm putting my ISK on this being a EULA violation and that the banhammer is already falling.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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Agreements on the forums or in game, or winning an auction does not guarantee a character will be transferred to you. The seller may choose to renege on a deal at any time, prior to the transaction being completedAgreements on the forums or in game, or winning an auction does not guarantee a character will be transferred to you. The seller may choose to renege on a deal at any time, prior to the transaction being completed

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Originally by: isdisco3

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Should be legit imo.

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Originally by: Apoctasy

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needs moar internet spaceships lawyers

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Originally by: Apoctasy

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needs moar internet spaceships lawyers

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Originally by: Lana Torrin

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Can we place bets on this one? I'm going to bet on 'he'll be fine'.. Mainly because I may use that in the future and I don't want to limit my options..

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Originally by: Colonel Cornbread

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Originally by: Lana Torrin

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Can we place bets on this one? I'm going to bet on 'he'll be fine'.. Mainly because I may use that in the future and I don't want to limit my options..

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I will be the intermediary. Everyone send their ISK to me with your side of the bet as the reason.

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Originally by: Cyrdax

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ashley sky advance petitioned when he ran the wardec removal alliance (ie you get dec'd, you join the alliance, you quit the alliance, bye bye wardec). the gm told him it would be perfectly ok

then someone petitioned it once it got going and the gms shut it down

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Originally by: Galston

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It's a EULA violation, if you get caught by a GM(and by posting this thread you're definitely going to be) you'll lose the isk and your account.

Hopefully the GM you petitioned will just let you give back the isk, but yeah, this sort of scam is definitely not allowed.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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5. The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK.

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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the rules clearly state that scams in char sales isnt allowed, and thats what u just did

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Originally by: Michael Corinthos

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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the rules clearly state that scams in char sales isnt allowed, and thats what u just did

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Where is this clearly stated? I linked the rules thread from the character bazaar and it doesn't say that. Post a link to these alternative rules, sir.

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Originally by: Benedikt Miloslav

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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1050855


:)

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Originally by: Butzewutze

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promise of a character was used as bait

This sums is up pretty clearly and in my oppinion you really should feel the banstick.

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Originally by: Everybruce

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there was no promise for a character - throughout our conversation I did not once say that I would transfer him the character, or prior to the accepting of the contract did either of us say that if he accepts the contract he will get the character.

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Originally by: Lumine Fusion

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Originally by: Everybruce

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there was no promise for a character - throughout our conversation I did not once say that I would transfer him the character, or prior to the accepting of the contract did either of us say that if he accepts the contract he will get the character.

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[ 2009.05.03 15:32:59 ] ME > your offer certainly interests me

So what does this mean then? You fail to include any info about conversations prior to this one but it would seem an offer was made for something. You just neglect to include what it could be in your op.

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Originally by: Everybruce

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there was no promise for a character - throughout our conversation I did not once say that I would transfer him the character, or prior to the accepting of the contract did either of us say that if he accepts the contract he will get the character.

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Originally by: Everybruce

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there was no promise for a character - throughout our conversation I did not once say that I would transfer him the character, or prior to the accepting of the contract did either of us say that if he accepts the contract he will get the character.

He asked to buy the sleipnir for 500m, again - inferring a separate transaction entirely... would seriously like some clarification on this as it's been nearly 24 hours.. are the GMs on holiday or something?

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Originally by: Butzewutze

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Edited by: Butzewutze on 04/05/2009 17:14:43

Originally by: Everybruce

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there was no promise for a character - throughout our conversation I did not once say that I would transfer him the character, or prior to the accepting of the contract did either of us say that if he accepts the contract he will get the character.

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[ 2009.05.03 15:38:36 ] ME > would you want any assets with the character?
[ 2009.05.03 16:02:34 ] ME > if i sell i will have like 25b to spend on a char
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:01 ] ME > character forum says I cant include assets ont he char
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:05 ] ME > so will contract them to you separately

You promised nothing, thats right. But i think you mentioned "your char" a bit to often to be a single mistake. Fact is: You used this char as bait, and everyone with a bit of common sense can see this.

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[ 2009.05.03 15:22:15 ] ME > hey, sorry.. i was out
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:17 ] HIM > np
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:20 ] HIM > just got back myself
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:38 ] ME > ah hello
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:41 ] HIM > lo =)
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:59 ] ME > your offer certainly interests me

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Originally by: Miss Shivarrr

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OP i really dont believe you are telling us the whole truth.
Youre trying to pull one over us like you did over the person buying your char.

Quote:

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[ 2009.05.03 15:22:15 ] ME > hey, sorry.. i was out
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:17 ] HIM > np
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:20 ] HIM > just got back myself
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:38 ] ME > ah hello
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:41 ] HIM > lo =)
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:59 ] ME > your offer certainly interests me

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OP why would you be sorry you were out if you never had prior contact with the buyer and thus had no intention to talk at a specific time? You must have had some contact for the context of that quoted conversation to make sense.

Also you say "your offer certainly interests me". I see no mention of any offer from the buyer before that line is mentioned. So what offer interests you? Contextually that sentence makes no sense to me (unless i have discussed selling my char previously, ergo you have had prior discussion with buyer which you are purposely hiding).

Clearly you are trying to misguide us into having sympathy for you.

You clearly did a character scam and you must believe that to be the case to, or why would you have concerns about what you did yourself.

Isk should be returned to buyer at a minimum.

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Originally by: Everybruce

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Originally by: Miss Shivarrr

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OP i really dont believe you are telling us the whole truth.
Youre trying to pull one over us like you did over the person buying your char.

Quote:

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[ 2009.05.03 15:22:15 ] ME > hey, sorry.. i was out
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:17 ] HIM > np
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:20 ] HIM > just got back myself
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:38 ] ME > ah hello
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:41 ] HIM > lo =)
[ 2009.05.03 15:32:59 ] ME > your offer certainly interests me

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OP why would you be sorry you were out if you never had prior contact with the buyer and thus had no intention to talk at a specific time? You must have had some contact for the context of that quoted conversation to make sense.

Also you say "your offer certainly interests me". I see no mention of any offer from the buyer before that line is mentioned. So what offer interests you? Contextually that sentence makes no sense to me (unless i have discussed selling my char previously, ergo you have had prior discussion with buyer which you are purposely hiding).

Clearly you are trying to misguide us into having sympathy for you.

You clearly did a character scam and you must believe that to be the case to, or why would you have concerns about what you did yourself.

Isk should be returned to buyer at a minimum.

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He convoed me for the first time whilst I was out, invitation timed out.. I got back, convoed him again.

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Originally by: Everybruce

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[ 2009.05.03 15:38:36 ] ME > would you want any assets with the character?
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:45 ] ME > I can chuck in a fitted thanatos, sleipnir, hurricane + rapier in the mix
[...]
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:01 ] ME > character forum says I cant include assets ont he char
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:05 ] ME > so will contract them to you separately

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Originally by: Feilamya

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I searched the forum and could not find any statement from a dev that explicitly prohibity character scams.

There is this sticky, but it only describes the rules of the Character Bazaar, which is a part of the forum. However, since the scam happened ingame and not on the Character Bazaar, I don't see how these rules could have any significance here.

To me this whole "character scams are forbidden" thing looks like just another urban legend caused by a butthurt player who got scammed and made a thread about it in the past. And as always, the devs help these urban legends spread by not answering threads.
(Which is good, btw. If they did answer, some scams and dirty tricks would die of overuse)

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Feilamya

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I searched the forum and could not find any statement from a dev that explicitly prohibity character scams.

There is this sticky, but it only describes the rules of the Character Bazaar, which is a part of the forum. However, since the scam happened ingame and not on the Character Bazaar, I don't see how these rules could have any significance here.

To me this whole "character scams are forbidden" thing looks like just another urban legend caused by a butthurt player who got scammed and made a thread about it in the past. And as always, the devs help these urban legends spread by not answering threads.
(Which is good, btw. If they did answer, some scams and dirty tricks would die of overuse)

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char trades have never been allowed.

ive been scammed twice in char trades, and both times ive gotten my isk back , and ive never seen the chars that scammed me online since

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Originally by: Everybruce

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Originally by: ArmyOfMe

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Originally by: Feilamya

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I searched the forum and could not find any statement from a dev that explicitly prohibity character scams.

There is this sticky, but it only describes the rules of the Character Bazaar, which is a part of the forum. However, since the scam happened ingame and not on the Character Bazaar, I don't see how these rules could have any significance here.

To me this whole "character scams are forbidden" thing looks like just another urban legend caused by a butthurt player who got scammed and made a thread about it in the past. And as always, the devs help these urban legends spread by not answering threads.
(Which is good, btw. If they did answer, some scams and dirty tricks would die of overuse)

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char trades have never been allowed.

ive been scammed twice in char trades, and both times ive gotten my isk back , and ive never seen the chars that scammed me online since

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But when you got scammed, did you accept a contract for a ship that you asked to buy separately?

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Originally by: Smirna Auff

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All is well, this should be legit. From the log, it looks like you have two completely separate trades going: 1) For the char 2) For the assets. If these logs are complete, they sorta appear to be separate and unrelated trades.

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Originally by: EveryBruce

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[ 2009.05.03 15:38:36 ] ME > would you want any assets with the character?
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:45 ] ME > I can chuck in a fitted thanatos, sleipnir, hurricane + rapier in the mix
[...]
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:31 ] ME > though I would perhaps look for a bit more than 17b for , just a little more
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:46 ] ME > if you were to go to 17.5 I could chuck in the sleipnir
[...]
[ 2009.05.03 17:38:58 ] ME > any chance you could go up to 18?
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:02 ] ME > will include the carrier for that
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:35 ] HIM > hmm
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:01 ] ME > character forum says I cant include assets ont he char
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:05 ] ME > so will contract them to you separately

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Quote:

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I would start transferring assets to alts or friends so you do not lose everything you just stole.

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Originally by: wth nonames

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this whole thread shows just how CCP is trying to welcome new players to the game


come spend your real life money for a month lose everything you spend your free time gaining and leave because there are no rules to be followed protecting players from people with no moral fiber

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Originally by: Dani SP

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I say don't ban him!!!

This is New Eden, an hostile galaxy. They were trading ingame assets. character is an asset itself from my point of view ofcourse. and he was not asking for real money, but isk.

its like scamming with PLEXtentions , CCP said it was legit. Then this is the same on a larger scale. Obviously nobody likes being scammed, and no one would like to be involved on this.

But seriously if someone is SO innocent to give out 17.5b, and this dude managed to fake it and make him send the isk... he deserves it. Want a pimping kickass character, work it yourself.

HELL leave things like theyre now and lets celebrate most succesful scam I ever remember of (after the one with 10b PLEX from some kid playing EVE and his father arguing for it)

I personally say: YOU ROCK at scamming.

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Originally by: Dani SP

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I say don't ban him!!!

This is New Eden, an hostile galaxy. They were trading ingame assets. character is an asset itself from my point of view ofcourse. and he was not asking for real money, but isk.

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Originally by: Keyzzani

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I hope you get banned. Or at least ISK to be given back to the victim.

What's the point if you can't even sell/buy a character without risks? Why do we even have character bazaar then?

Selling or buying a character is no different on forums or in-game. There are logs that can be checked etc... And as seen, people who scam for characters on forums do get banned and ISK is returned, so why should in-game be any different?

And twisting words and saying he just accepted Sleipnir contract for 17.5B is stupid. It's crystal clear what the arrangement was. That's like killing a guy with a gun and saying to a judge: "I didn't kill the victim, I only pulled the trigger. The bullet killed him!".

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Originally by: Sjobba

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Originally by: Smirna Auff

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All is well, this should be legit. From the log, it looks like you have two completely separate trades going: 1) For the char 2) For the assets. If these logs are complete, they sorta appear to be separate and unrelated trades.

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Let me quote the highlights. (As I see them, at least)

Originally by: EveryBruce

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[ 2009.05.03 15:38:36 ] ME > would you want any assets with the character?
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:45 ] ME > I can chuck in a fitted thanatos, sleipnir, hurricane + rapier in the mix
[...]
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:31 ] ME > though I would perhaps look for a bit more than 17b for , just a little more
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:46 ] ME > if you were to go to 17.5 I could chuck in the sleipnir
[...]
[ 2009.05.03 17:38:58 ] ME > any chance you could go up to 18?
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:02 ] ME > will include the carrier for that
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:35 ] HIM > hmm
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:01 ] ME > character forum says I cant include assets ont he char
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:05 ] ME > so will contract them to you separately

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... looks like a package deal to me, only contracted separately to get around the forum limitations.

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Originally by: Dzil

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That line keeps getting thinner :) I think this is valid, you said buy this Slepnir for 500m and pay up the rest later, he said ok and bought that slepnir for 17.5b. If that's invalid, I got a whole mess of contracts being advertised in Jita that you need to take a look at too.

Its fuzzy because they were talking about character transfers at one point, which enters a certain protected zone. I'm guessing that will become irrelevant though. A proof by contradiction: If talking about character transfers nullifies any scams pulled off, can I ask Jita spammers to buy their main character before accepting their contracts?

That would seem silly, so I have to assume the OP is safe.

---

Originally by: Butzewutze

---

Edited by: Butzewutze on 04/05/2009 19:11:48

Quote:

---

I would start transferring assets to alts or friends so you do not lose everything you just stole.

---

Thats a pretty good idea. I mean, its not like ccp can track where items / isk have been transfered to and i guess friends will be very pleased if they get involved in a scam / possible accountban. So u can see how friendly your friends really are.

---

Originally by: Keyzzani

---

Originally by: Dzil

---

That line keeps getting thinner :) I think this is valid, you said buy this Slepnir for 500m and pay up the rest later, he said ok and bought that slepnir for 17.5b. If that's invalid, I got a whole mess of contracts being advertised in Jita that you need to take a look at too.

Its fuzzy because they were talking about character transfers at one point, which enters a certain protected zone. I'm guessing that will become irrelevant though. A proof by contradiction: If talking about character transfers nullifies any scams pulled off, can I ask Jita spammers to buy their main character before accepting their contracts?

That would seem silly, so I have to assume the OP is safe.

---

Comparing this scam to Jita spammers isn't really fair.

We all know that 17.5 Sleipnir was meant as payment for the character. And we have a chat log of a long discussion and trading arrangement.

If CCP bans character scammers on forums, and returns ISK then they should do so in-game too.

If they allow this then let's go and scam on forums too, and ultimately we won't be able to buy/sell characters anymore because every advertisement will be a scam.

Rules on this matter should be clear. I hope we can get some blue reply in here.

---

Originally by: Dani SP

---

I say don't ban him!!!

This is New Eden, an hostile galaxy. They were trading ingame assets. character is an asset itself from my point of view ofcourse. and he was not asking for real money, but isk.

its like scamming with PLEXtentions , CCP said it was legit. Then this is the same on a larger scale. Obviously nobody likes being scammed, and no one would like to be involved on this.

But seriously if someone is SO innocent to give out 17.5b, and this dude managed to fake it and make him send the isk... he deserves it. Want a pimping kickass character, work it yourself.

HELL leave things like theyre now and lets celebrate most succesful scam I ever remember of (after the one with 10b PLEX from some kid playing EVE and his father arguing for it)

I personally say: YOU ROCK at scamming.

---

Originally by: igil

---

Regardless of any obtuse technicalities, it is clear that the money sent was for the character, and that the scammer clearly and maliciously misused the character bazaar to scam someone.

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Originally by: Smirna Auff

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Originally by: Sjobba

---

Originally by: Smirna Auff

---

All is well, this should be legit. From the log, it looks like you have two completely separate trades going: 1) For the char 2) For the assets. If these logs are complete, they sorta appear to be separate and unrelated trades.

---

Let me quote the highlights. (As I see them, at least)

Originally by: EveryBruce

---

[ 2009.05.03 15:38:36 ] ME > would you want any assets with the character?
[ 2009.05.03 15:38:45 ] ME > I can chuck in a fitted thanatos, sleipnir, hurricane + rapier in the mix
[...]
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:31 ] ME > though I would perhaps look for a bit more than 17b for , just a little more
[ 2009.05.03 15:41:46 ] ME > if you were to go to 17.5 I could chuck in the sleipnir
[...]
[ 2009.05.03 17:38:58 ] ME > any chance you could go up to 18?
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:02 ] ME > will include the carrier for that
[ 2009.05.03 17:39:35 ] HIM > hmm
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:01 ] ME > character forum says I cant include assets ont he char
[ 2009.05.03 17:40:05 ] ME > so will contract them to you separately

---

... looks like a package deal to me, only contracted separately to get around the forum limitations.

---

Contracting separately means you are going to do a 500 mil contract for the Sleip, and then do the normal char transfer process for the 17b char. If you happen to overpay for that Sleip, you win a Darwin award, congrats. It's interesting how we can come to completely different conclusions from the same snippet of text.

---

Originally by: Everybruce

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Please note that he posted his "buyout" offer on the forum 20 hours after he bought my sleipnir.

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

To quote GM Nova;

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

Originally by: Everybruce

---

Originally by: wth nonames

---

this whole thread shows just how CCP is trying to welcome new players to the game


come spend your real life money for a month lose everything you spend your free time gaining and leave because there are no rules to be followed protecting players from people with no moral fiber

---

to me that is the beauty of eve, and how it's so unlike any other MMO with namby pamby developers and what makes me, along with many others want to play...

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Originally by: arbiter reborn

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

To quote GM Nova;

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

lame, but lol your chars so gonna be CCPDOOKEN if this is trusies, screens and or tearz would be nice

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Originally by: Matrix Skye

---

To the OP,

You lied in this very thread by claiming there were no forum posts on this open offer . Are you trying to convince US you did no wrong? Are you looking for us to light candles and do vigils for you when you get banned? Save your creative thinking and excuses for the devs. You'll need everything you can muster to avoid the ban stick headed your way. Personally, I think you bit more than you can chew on this one. Good luck.

---

Originally by: Tadesae

---

Originally by: Everybruce

---

Originally by: wth nonames

---

this whole thread shows just how CCP is trying to welcome new players to the game


come spend your real life money for a month lose everything you spend your free time gaining and leave because there are no rules to be followed protecting players from people with no moral fiber

---

to me that is the beauty of eve, and how it's so unlike any other MMO with namby pamby developers and what makes me, along with many others want to play...

---

It does make EVE interesting but I'm always left wondering what the heck happened to people like you when you were growing up? It must have been seriously awful for this to be fun for you.

Either that or you got picked on a lot and you're taking your revenge out on random strangers in virtual reality because you can't get beat up again in here.

If the former I feel bad for you. If the ladder, you need to move on with your life. You'll be much happier.

---

Originally by: Everybruce

---

Originally by: Matrix Skye

---

To the OP,

You lied in this very thread by claiming there were no forum posts on this open offer . Are you trying to convince US you did no wrong? Are you looking for us to light candles and do vigils for you when you get banned? Save your creative thinking and excuses for the devs. You'll need everything you can muster to avoid the ban stick headed your way. Personally, I think you bit more than you can chew on this one. Good luck.

---

I said that there were no forum confirmation posts, i.e "buyout offer"... "ISK sent" and so on.. as he bought my sleipnir rather than anything else!

---

Originally by: Everybruce

---

I said that there were no forum confirmation posts, i.e "buyout offer"... "ISK sent" and so on.. as he bought my sleipnir rather than anything else!

---

Originally by: Everybruce

---

There were *NO* forum posts, and NO evemails involved in this at all.. he just accepted my sleipnir for 17.5 billion as far as he can see - i've petitioned it, but would like advice from this forum...

---

Quote:

---

I've participated in many forms of scamming, stealing and general grief in EVE. But if you actually knew me, you would see I'm far worse in real life than in the game. However, my child hood was fine, and I was never picked on.

So what's your internet analysis of me?

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

To quote GM Nova;

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

Originally by: Nyx Cyth

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

To quote GM Nova;

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

This, if at any point you mentioned that you were selling your char (which is what this whole thing is) and scammed the player with this information then you are in violation of the EULA irrespective of what happened next

Think of it like this, you convinced someone to withdraw their money and pay you for a paperclip and a car, you sent them the paperclip. No police in the world are going to care about money exchanged for a paper-clip (in the same way CCP care not if you scam) but if you sold a car then hold onto the money then you would be arrested irrespective of your arguments

---

Originally by: Tadesae

---

Quote:

---

I've participated in many forms of scamming, stealing and general grief in EVE. But if you actually knew me, you would see I'm far worse in real life than in the game. However, my child hood was fine, and I was never picked on.

So what's your internet analysis of me?

---

I won't go that far. All I know is that I can't get my head around it. I imagine some troll in his room getting seriously excited stroking his epeen about lying and cheating people. *shrug*

WTF am I supposed to make of that? It's repulsive and disgusting to imagine people like that.

---

Originally by: Everybruce

---

Originally by: Nyx Cyth

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

To quote GM Nova;

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

This, if at any point you mentioned that you were selling your char (which is what this whole thing is) and scammed the player with this information then you are in violation of the EULA irrespective of what happened next

Think of it like this, you convinced someone to withdraw their money and pay you for a paperclip and a car, you sent them the paperclip. No police in the world are going to care about money exchanged for a paper-clip (in the same way CCP care not if you scam) but if you sold a car then hold onto the money then you would be arrested irrespective of your arguments

---

So any mention of a char sale nullifies the validity of any scam that happens afterwards? What are the implications of this?

Fact of the matter is he asked to buy my sleipnir separately, indicating an entirely different transaction for the ship - if i'd had sold it for 17.5 million by mistake for example, could I go and cry saying he'd scammed me for a sleipnir under the pretence of buying my character?

---

Originally by: Everybruce

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

To quote GM Nova;

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

This, if at any point you mentioned that you were selling your char (which is what this whole thing is) and scammed the player with this information then you are in violation of the EULA irrespective of what happened next



So any mention of a char sale nullifies the validity of any scam that happens afterwards? What are the implications of this?

Fact of the matter is he asked to buy my sleipnir separately, indicating an entirely different transaction for the ship - if i'd had sold it for 17.5 million by mistake for example, could I go and cry saying he'd scammed me for a sleipnir under the pretence of buying my character?

---

Originally by: wth nonames

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some lines should not be crossed but again it take a person with some kind of moral fiber to see this

---

Originally by: Michael Corinthos

---

OMG HAVE YOU NO VIDEO GAME MORALS?? YOU ALL NEED TO FIND VIDEO GAME JESUS AND GO TO VIDEO GAME CHURCH!!!

---

Originally by: Elora Narst

---

I want to replace your reality, and substitute my own:
No matter what the technicalities of the case are, the OP has clearly performed a character transfer scam. It is not a "gray area", and there are really no fine points to discuss here.

---

Quote:

---

Incidentally, every character transfer transaction means an additional $20 deposited into CCP's wallet. Every character transfer scam would more or less equate to an $20 loss for CCP. Going after wannabe scammers like the OP makes a whole lot of financial sense.

---

Originally by: Sidephex

---

i dont think this needs to be discussed any further.
both sides make good arguments. fact is, its a very gray area.

its up to a GM to decide. and quite frankly i think that it will be more than 1 gm included in the decision-making on this one.

---

Originally by: Lexa Hellfury

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Just to throw another kink in this:

Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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5. The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK.

---

IMO, this is just some moron who didn't follow the rules and wound up buying a Sliepnir for 17b.

---

Originally by: dr doooo

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Originally by: Sidephex

---

i dont think this needs to be discussed any further.
both sides make good arguments. fact is, its a very gray area.

its up to a GM to decide. and quite frankly i think that it will be more than 1 gm included in the decision-making on this one.

---

Looking at it from the GMs point of view, I doubt it will take more than one GM, or more than a few seconds for that matter. If character scams are bannable.... the rest is wannabe hot-shot spaceship defence-lawyers.

---

Originally by: CCP Mitnal

---

5. The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK.

---

Originally by: Mista Sexamalicious

---

I foresee, CCP exercising:

AMENDMENTS TO EULA
CCP may, in its sole discretion, amend the EULA from time to time. If the EULA is amended, you will be asked to review the amended EULA when you log into your Account, and to indicate and confirm your acceptance of the amended EULA by clicking the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons.

If the amendment alters a material term of the EULA that is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in the termination section below.

Found it in Here


I foresee:

"Secure Character Trade" Being added to Account Services.

---

Originally by: Barakkus

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imo fault of the buyer for not reading the contract before hitting accept...

---

Originally by: Arkerius

---

Originally by: Barakkus

---

imo fault of the buyer for not reading the contract before hitting accept...

---

then why wouldn't the OP have put it up for more? if (s)he "got away" with 17.5 billion why not just make it 20 or 30? 17.5 billion looks nothing close to 500 mil (while the "999" Jita scams are more believable, at a quick glance at least)

mistaking 499,999,999,999 for 500 mil would make more sense than mistaking 17,500,000,000 for 500 mil. It looks like the buyer DID read the contract before hitting accept, because even an idiot with half a brain (yes...an idiot, with half a brain) could make a distinction between 17.5 bil and 500 mil.

That said, buyer still shouldn't have accepted the contract on pure suspiciousness...but the OP's methods were a tad less than kosher, even by scamming standards.

I'd say take all the money back from the OP, but only give half back to the buyer (scammed). The other half can be "lost to the abyss". Give them a little slap on the wrist and send them on their way. The End

---

Originally by: Surfs Down

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Still more spaceship lawyers needed.

EveryBruce - please post so we know you are alive.

---

Originally by: wth nonames

---

Originally by: Dani SP

---

I say don't ban him!!!

This is New Eden, an hostile galaxy. They were trading ingame assets. character is an asset itself from my point of view ofcourse. and he was not asking for real money, but isk.

its like scamming with PLEXtentions , CCP said it was legit. Then this is the same on a larger scale. Obviously nobody likes being scammed, and no one would like to be involved on this.

But seriously if someone is SO innocent to give out 17.5b, and this dude managed to fake it and make him send the isk... he deserves it. Want a pimping kickass character, work it yourself.

HELL leave things like theyre now and lets celebrate most succesful scam I ever remember of (after the one with 10b PLEX from some kid playing EVE and his father arguing for it)

I personally say: YOU ROCK at scamming.

---

are there no lines people like you will not cross

---

Quote:

---

CHARACTER TRANSFER
You may transfer a character from your account to another account, either belonging to you or another person. This transfer option is available from the EVE Online Account Management web site https://secure.eve-online.com/login.asp and is subject to fees and the following limitations: You may not offer to transfer characters except your own, or act as a "broker" or intermediary (for compensation or otherwise) for anyone wishing to transfer or obtain characters. The transferee will obtain all rights to your character in a single transaction, and you will retain absolutely no control or rights over the characters, items or attributes of that character. You may not transfer any characters whose attributes are, in whole or in part, developed, or which own items, objects or currency obtained or acquired, in violation of the EULA.
Any character transfers or attempted transfers not in accordance with the foregoing terms is prohibited and void, and shall not be binding on CCP. A transfer or attempted transfer of a character is entirely at the risk of the parties to such transaction. CCP is not liable to any person (whether transferor, transferee or otherwise) for any acts, omissions, statements, representations, defaults or liabilities of the parties in connection with such a transaction.

---

Quote:

---

In an effort to reduce the amount of character scams...

---

Quote:

---

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

Quote:

---

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

- GM Nova

Notice it says, "NO" not "Some" or "One off's."

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

Quote:

---

NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

---

- GM Nova

Notice it says, "NO" not "Some" or "One off's."

---

Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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im everybruce, i will be unable to post as i've been banned for 1 week on an entirely unrelated matter - be careful what you say in local.

---

Originally by: Dzil

---

Originally by: Mista Sexamalicious

---

I foresee, CCP exercising:

AMENDMENTS TO EULA
CCP may, in its sole discretion, amend the EULA from time to time. If the EULA is amended, you will be asked to review the amended EULA when you log into your Account, and to indicate and confirm your acceptance of the amended EULA by clicking the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons.

If the amendment alters a material term of the EULA that is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in the termination section below.

Found it in Here


I foresee:

"Secure Character Trade" Being added to Account Services.

---

Surprised it hasn't been already. Followed by secure character transfers by ingame contract. Followed by this going from against the EULA to "You know what folks? We spent months building a system that prevents you from getting scammed if you can read - we're done here. Best of luck."

---

Originally by: Mista Sexamalicious

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BTW. I can careless if CCP do not tighten the reigns, If they don't I prob scam the hell out of the community in Char Trades.

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Originally by: Elora Narst

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Originally by: Mista Sexamalicious

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BTW. I can careless if CCP do not tighten the reigns, If they don't I prob scam the hell out of the community in Char Trades.

---

I would too.

As will many other professional scammers.

But this will never happen, because it will mean real financial harm to CCP. Which is why the OP will get a banhammer. Or something equally nasty.

---

Originally by: Lana Torrin

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This is one of those rare cases where I agree with CCP.. Transfers cost real cash, so they cant be messed with. Timecards (as in real ones not PLEXs) cos real case and therefor cant be messed with either.. PLEXs cost a timecard, which is 1 step away from real cash, so its fare game.. Which reminds me...

---

Originally by: Arkerius

---

Originally by: Lana Torrin

---

This is one of those rare cases where I agree with CCP.. Transfers cost real cash, so they cant be messed with. Timecards (as in real ones not PLEXs) cos real case and therefor cant be messed with either.. PLEXs cost a timecard, which is 1 step away from real cash, so its fare game.. Which reminds me...

---

Lana has spoken...

/thread

---

Originally by: Arkerius

---

Originally by: Lana Torrin

---

This is one of those rare cases where I agree with CCP.. Transfers cost real cash, so they cant be messed with. Timecards (as in real ones not PLEXs) cos real case and therefor cant be messed with either.. PLEXs cost a timecard, which is 1 step away from real cash, so its fare game.. Which reminds me...

---

Lana has spoken...

/thread

---

Originally by: Karl Kahn

---

Originally by: Arkerius

---

Originally by: Lana Torrin

---

This is one of those rare cases where I agree with CCP.. Transfers cost real cash, so they cant be messed with. Timecards (as in real ones not PLEXs) cos real case and therefor cant be messed with either.. PLEXs cost a timecard, which is 1 step away from real cash, so its fare game.. Which reminds me...

---

Lana has spoken...

/thread

---

uh oh, req is gonna f u up now.....

---

Originally by: Kaptain Klo

---

And finally, the piece of information that everybruce is leaving out, is that I sent an evemail asking if a 17b buyout for his char would be acceptable to him. Hence 'your offer interests me'. Moreover, his issuance of a counter offer (17.5b + sleipnir) implies acceptance of the offer offered (offferoffer?).

---

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Are BS useless in solo combat?
The larger ship still has many benefits:
* Can fit smaller weapons to fend off smaller targets
* More slots allow EW counter measures

---

Originally by: Kaptain Klo

---

And finally, the piece of information that everybruce is leaving out, is that I sent an evemail asking if a 17b buyout for his char would be acceptable to him. Hence 'your offer interests me'. Moreover, his issuance of a counter offer (17.5b + sleipnir) implies acceptance of the offer offered (offferoffer?).

---

Originally by: Megan Aven

---

Originally by: Michael Corinthos

---

OMG HAVE YOU NO VIDEO GAME MORALS?? YOU ALL NEED TO FIND VIDEO GAME JESUS AND GO TO VIDEO GAME CHURCH!!!

---

Are you using video game time to play video games? No, you are using real life time. So if you scam someone for 17.5B in a character scam - think about how much time did he/she had to spend acquiring that.

If you kill a team mate on Counterstrike you have no video game morals. But if you "steal" hundreds of hours from someone's life, that's a bit different.

---

Originally by: Michael Corinthos

---

Originally by: Megan Aven

---

Originally by: Michael Corinthos

---

OMG HAVE YOU NO VIDEO GAME MORALS?? YOU ALL NEED TO FIND VIDEO GAME JESUS AND GO TO VIDEO GAME CHURCH!!!

---

Are you using video game time to play video games? No, you are using real life time. So if you scam someone for 17.5B in a character scam - think about how much time did he/she had to spend acquiring that.

If you kill a team mate on Counterstrike you have no video game morals. But if you "steal" hundreds of hours from someone's life, that's a bit different.

---

I don't care about you OR your hundreds of hours spent grinding in a video game to get your video game hands on some premium video game pixels. I hope you lose everything (ingame).

---

Originally by: Imertu Solientai

---

Originally by: Michael Corinthos

---

Originally by: Megan Aven

---

Originally by: Michael Corinthos

---

OMG HAVE YOU NO VIDEO GAME MORALS?? YOU ALL NEED TO FIND VIDEO GAME JESUS AND GO TO VIDEO GAME CHURCH!!!

---

Are you using video game time to play video games? No, you are using real life time. So if you scam someone for 17.5B in a character scam - think about how much time did he/she had to spend acquiring that.

If you kill a team mate on Counterstrike you have no video game morals. But if you "steal" hundreds of hours from someone's life, that's a bit different.

---

I don't care about you OR your hundreds of hours spent grinding in a video game to get your video game hands on some premium video game pixels. I hope you lose everything (ingame).

---

This tbh. The time you spend on the game is already wasted. CCP could turn off the servers at any moment, and all that ISK you have spend months earning is gone.

As far as I can tell the OP simply scammed someone using a standard contract scam, then decided to withdraw his offer of a character sale. The rules state that all character sales must be done through CCP, so any ISK given in-game should have been entirely for the items rather than for the character. If you are claiming you accepted that contract as payment for the character then you broke the rules so you should at least be warned by CCP.

---

Originally by: Imertu Solientai

---

CCP could turn off the servers at any moment, and all that ISK you have spend months earning is gone.

---

Originally by: ArmyOfMe

---

considering Everybruce hasnt posted in quite a while i guess that tells us how it went.

---

Originally by: Lady Cynosural

---

Originally by: ArmyOfMe

---

considering Everybruce hasnt posted in quite a while i guess that tells us how it went.

---

incorrect - i'm everybruce, and i'm banned until next thursday on an entirely unrelated matter.

User **** is banned
Last login: 2009.05.06 21:00
Number of visits: 1023
Reason: EULA Violation - Offensive language.
Until: 2009.05.13

---

Originally by: Tyllie

---

Edited by: Tyllie on 09/05/2009 06:00:03
Edited by: Tyllie on 09/05/2009 04:11:39
Like it was suggested umpteen years ago. Eve needs a prison. A system in the Jove region.

No gates, just a star some planets and some moons (it'll give the dumbasses something to do.)

And instead of banning dumbass (like the OP) players they should throw every char in that players account into the system.

---

Originally by: Lady Cynosural

---

Originally by: ArmyOfMe

---

considering Everybruce hasnt posted in quite a while i guess that tells us how it went.

---

incorrect - i'm everybruce, and i'm banned until next thursday on an entirely unrelated matter.

User **** is banned
Last login: 2009.05.06 21:00
Number of visits: 1023
Reason: EULA Violation - Offensive language.
Until: 2009.05.13

---

Originally by: Future Mutant

---

Originally by: Lady Cynosural

---

Originally by: ArmyOfMe

---

considering Everybruce hasnt posted in quite a while i guess that tells us how it went.

---

incorrect - i'm everybruce, and i'm banned until next thursday on an entirely unrelated matter.

User **** is banned
Last login: 2009.05.06 21:00
Number of visits: 1023
Reason: EULA Violation - Offensive language.
Until: 2009.05.13

---

Just wanted to point out that neither everybruce or the lady have a contract matching one they claim was accepted

---

Originally by: Amond Starsmoke

---

IMO, CCP must be concerned about the impact to the greater eve community than to the parties affected. Most of the people who condone these actions are in fact greaseball scammers that would LOVE a new way to get their hands on 17Bil based on 'trust' that someone places in the character transfer system.

-snip-
tl;dr: Zero tolerance on scams where character transfers are involved is essential given current game mechanics. Period/Full Stop.

---

Originally by: Kaptain Klo

---

My petition is currently In Action. Will give general details once it's closed.

---

Originally by: g0ggalor

---

Originally by: Fossil Wolf

---

Quote:

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NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.

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- GM Nova

Notice it says, "NO" not "Some" or "One off's."

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They should put that in their legal documents and word it as strongly in the char bizarre forum instead of waiting for someone to scam and having a GM post it in an obscure thread.

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Quote:

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This is not considered a EULA violation. You are free to keep the ISK.

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Hi all,

Forgot I could check my petitions on a banned account - i've had the all clear.

Quote:

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This is not considered a EULA violation. You are free to keep the ISK.

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Looks like i've just pulled off a fairly big scam - congrats me! :D

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Hi all,

Forgot I could check my petitions on a banned account - i've had the all clear.

Quote:

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This is not considered a EULA violation. You are free to keep the ISK.

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Looks like i've just pulled off a fairly big scam - congrats me! :D

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Just wanted to point out that you never took into account that private contracts can't be publically viewed, finished or not. Also wanted to point out neither was the character that I sold the sleipnir to him with.

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Originally by: Inenin I

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Just wanted to point out that you never took into account that private contracts can't be publically viewed, finished or not. Also wanted to point out neither was the character that I sold the sleipnir to him with.

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Just wanted to point out that item exchanges / private, can still be viewed publically when finished.

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Edited by: Lady Cynosural on 10/05/2009 10:52:58

Originally by: Inenin I

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Just wanted to point out that you never took into account that private contracts can't be publically viewed, finished or not. Also wanted to point out neither was the character that I sold the sleipnir to him with.

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Just wanted to point out that item exchanges / private, can still be viewed publically when finished.

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incorrect - as I can't look the sleipnir sale up on the character I did it with.
And you would be incorrect on your bull**** claim :) :)

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Originally by: Inenin I

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Edited by: Lady Cynosural on 10/05/2009 10:52:58

Originally by: Inenin I

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Just wanted to point out that you never took into account that private contracts can't be publically viewed, finished or not. Also wanted to point out neither was the character that I sold the sleipnir to him with.

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Just wanted to point out that item exchanges / private, can still be viewed publically when finished.

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incorrect - as I can't look the sleipnir sale up on the character I did it with.
And you would be incorrect on your bull**** claim :) :)

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Hehe - okay I'll admit to making a tiny mistake - but there was no need to get nasty about it.
You can see item exchanges / private on the character that did them - which made me think they were public for a moment there - just checked up on that, and no, you can't see the private ones publically
No wonder you got banned for bad language...

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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The bull**** counterclaim was to chiefyuk who was disputing my post detailing the GM's decision :)

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Originally by: Telinturco

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You're in the clear? But you can't quote the whole convo, can you?

Hrmmm... well, obvious proof would be you posting in this thread again on the 13th, wouldn't it? Unless the guy that paid 17B for a Sleph wants to confirm that he's received similar word from GM's...

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Originally by: Telinturco

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You're in the clear? But you can't quote the whole convo, can you?

Hrmmm... well, obvious proof would be you posting in this thread again on the 13th, wouldn't it? Unless the guy that paid 17B for a Sleph wants to confirm that he's received similar word from GM's...

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Quote what convo? Thought you weren't allowed to post GM responses to petitions?

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Originally by: Capella

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With CCP trying to encourage new players to EvE I am starting to feel that the huge increase in scamming could end up somehow damaging the game. The op admitted to scamming by using a character sale, which should result in a refund for the scammed and a ban imo.

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Originally by: Xtreem

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if i was the buyer i would pass this on to a senior GM, its too close to do anything but not to ban, but to return the isk, then make the rules more clear imo

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Originally by: Dzil

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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My petition is currently In Action. Will give general details once it's closed.

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Thank you for keeping the public in the loop on this one - try to avoid the temptation to specifically quote the GM as I am kind of curious how this turns out, and would hate to see the result moderated out of existence:)

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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Originally by: Xtreem

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if i was the buyer i would pass this on to a senior GM, its too close to do anything but not to ban, but to return the isk, then make the rules more clear imo

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Precisely what I'm going for.

The first ruling also did not take into account that Ed Gein's char does have a forum post up, nor does it take into account the 2 prior rulings which I linked in further correspondance (sp?). I expect to hear something back on monday from the lower level GM, and if it isn't what i want to hear I will escalate the issue to a senior GM, and then move on to the eve marketting team if necessary (AKA the people who care about how many subscriptions/char transfers there are).

A previous poster hit the nail on the head - This issue is too close to the line for them to justify the loss of a subscription, and the opportunity loss from character transfers decreasing in frequency. More than likely it will be a "Here's the isk because the rules are unclear, but in the future be very wary with character transfers." Moreover, I expect them to change the specifics of the char transfer threads.

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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Hi all,

Forgot I could check my petitions on a banned account - i've had the all clear.

Quote:

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This is not considered a EULA violation. You are free to keep the ISK.

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Looks like i've just pulled off a fairly big scam - congrats me! :D

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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A previous poster hit the nail on the head - This issue is too close to the line for them to justify the loss of a subscription, and the opportunity loss from character transfers decreasing in frequency. More than likely it will be a "Here's the isk because the rules are unclear, but in the future be very wary with character transfers." Moreover, I expect them to change the specifics of the char transfer threads.

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Originally by: Dzil

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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A previous poster hit the nail on the head - This issue is too close to the line for them to justify the loss of a subscription, and the opportunity loss from character transfers decreasing in frequency. More than likely it will be a "Here's the isk because the rules are unclear, but in the future be very wary with character transfers." Moreover, I expect them to change the specifics of the char transfer threads.

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I would certainly pursue this to the senior GM level, as it IS close and warrents the most careful scrutiny CCP has to offer. However, I disagree with you on two points:

1. Nothing's too close to call - that's what GMs get paid to do - Making the hard calls, applying the rules even when they appear to be evil, insensitive clods in doing so. You're saying simultaneously that Everybruce might be right, but CCP has no choice but to return the money?
2. Threatening to rage quit over getting scammed? You may be right - Everybruce probably won't rage quit if he doesn't get to keep the 17b isk. But that alone is a terrible reason to judge on a particular side. The impression that GMs will bias towards their income rather than their own ruleset could have longer term implications on the number of subscriptions, in my opinion.

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Originally by: Dzil

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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The impression that GMs will bias towards their income rather than their own ruleset could have longer term implications on the number of subscriptions, in my opinion.

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But their ruleset is what is being exhaustively and perhaps foolishly debated here in this thread. They could easily have argued that this was in fact a EULA violation based on their stance towards character trade scams. If some people would harp "oooohhh sure, CCP always lookin' going for the thing that makes them the most money, typical evil company, rabblerabblerabble", doesn't necessarily mean it was the wrong call. They've forfeited their protectorate status on something they have publicly claimed to protect.

CCP doesn't have to defend their EULA-based decisions in any way to anybody, not even to the involved parties, regardless of what we in this thread of an internet spaceship subforum think. They merely need to disclose their decision to the involved parties, and then thats that. If the result had been in favour of the 'mark', arguing that CCP went 'with the money AGAIN' would be purely speculative noise, easily filtered by the masses.

Originally by: Amond Starsmoke

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Well I am glad I read this thread! I pity the hundreds maybe thousands of character traders who have not been so enlightened that a zero tolerance policy on character trade scams is really something more like 0.888888% policy . Its ok to use character trading as bait, as long as the final 'meeting of the minds' doesn't involve the character.

The problem lies truly in the game mechanics of character trades. If you could trade characters through contract or on the market, you would avoid this thing entirely, and CCP wouldn't need to state a public opinion on character trade scams at all. People can throw their 900m covert ops cloak scams at me all the time, won't make a difference because I can read a contract. Character trades carry a certain amount of trust between the buyer and seller that is not present in the escrow system.

Using character trades as bait, while incredibly underhanded and greasy to me, is in fact now deemed to be clever by CCP. Like i said, this is good to know.

To Dzil: Sorry you feel bad about me calling scammers greaseballs. Didn't know you lot cared so much ;). My intention of discrediting the character of scammers, I think, is a valid point of consideration in determining the value of their arguments in this thread, since they stand to gain personally from Everybruce being successful. I have never bought or sold a character, nor participated in any scams (scammer nor scammee). I don't care/know at all about the victim here and consider myself to be perfectly neutral. But it does irk me that scammers have a new tool in their arsenal that treads on the area of CCP-protected trade.

I suppose props to the scammer, though, for boldly pursuing an original scam, earning substantially more than the typical scammer, and having his actions approved by CCP. At least you showed some creativity for what its worth.

edit: changed 0.999999% to 0.888888% since 8's look more like 0's. Amidoin'itrite?

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Originally by: Dzil

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Originally by: Amond Starsmoke

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Most recent post

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As for callin you a scammer, we can call that a misunderstanding. I said most people defending Everybruce are scammers, you thought that implied I called you a scammer. You said you might be offended that I call you a greaseball scammer, I thought that implied you were a greaseball scammer. Clearly, we were both interested in the same thing: knowledge. Now we've found it.

While people could push the envelope further with using character transfers as bait, I think going much further than Everybruce did would really be putting your account on the line. Thats the risk you take though, but the reward is worth quite a few banned accounts judging by Everybruce's payout. I'd also like to mention that being more careful, perhaps simply saying to him "17.5Bil? This includes the payment for the character right?" would clear that up, though I can definitely see how the victim would think it was implied given the simple math involved that was previously agreed upon (17 for the char .5 for the Sleipner).

Though on a more personal note, I suppose, my sympathies definitely lie with the victim. I have no doubt this will be his last experience with this cold, dark universe. Such a bitter exit from a game I have no doubt he otherwise played well.

Originally by: Dzil

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Originally by: Kaptain Klo

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A previous poster hit the nail on the head - This issue is too close to the line for them to justify the loss of a subscription, and the opportunity loss from character transfers decreasing in frequency. More than likely it will be a "Here's the isk because the rules are unclear, but in the future be very wary with character transfers." Moreover, I expect them to change the specifics of the char transfer threads.

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I would certainly pursue this to the senior GM level, as it IS close and warrents the most careful scrutiny CCP has to offer. However, I disagree with you on two points:

1. Nothing's too close to call - that's what GMs get paid to do - Making the hard calls, applying the rules even when they appear to be evil, insensitive clods in doing so. You're saying simultaneously that Everybruce might be right, but CCP has no choice but to return the money?
2. Threatening to rage quit over getting scammed? You may be right - Everybruce probably won't rage quit if he doesn't get to keep the 17b isk. But that alone is a terrible reason to judge on a particular side. The impression that GMs will bias towards their income rather than their own ruleset could have longer term implications on the number of subscriptions, in my opinion.

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Originally by: Lady Cynosural

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How exactly do you know what the ruling was based on - considering it was made only yesterday?

They took 6 days to come to a decision, so no doubt it was escalated to senior GMs who have decided on the issue. Accept it!

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Originally by: Leon Caedo

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I don't think what the OP did is right. However:

Do you honestly think the GMs solely based their decision on what the OP told them?


They would be pretty craptastic if they did not:
- look into all recent eve mails
- look for any forum posts
- look at all relevant convo's
- review the contract

There is no 'new information' that you can give them that they did not already have access to.

GM 101 is don't believe what either party tells you. Believe what the logs show. Obviously both parties involved are going to be biased and skew the facts.


I'm sorry but I highly doubt the GMs will overturn their previous ruling. I hope they do, but I will lose all remaining respect I had for CCP's customer service.

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Originally by: Leon Caedo

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GM 101 is don't believe what either party tells you. Believe what the logs show.

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Originally by: XXhermesXX

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Which means nothing is wrong.

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Originally by: Lord Windu

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Originally by: Leon Caedo

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GM 101 is don't believe what either party tells you. Believe what the logs show.

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But But, the logs, they show nothing

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