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Is this an EULA violation or valid scam?

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Everybruce	Posted - 2009.05.05 06:35:00 - [91] Please note that he posted his "buyout" offer on the forum 20 hours after he bought my sleipnir.
Sjobba	Posted - 2009.05.05 07:47:00 - [92] Originally by: Smirna Auff Originally by: Sjobba Originally by: Smirna Auff All is well, this should be legit. From the log, it looks like you have two completely separate trades going: 1) For the char 2) For the assets. If these logs are complete, they sorta appear to be separate and unrelated trades. Let me quote the highlights. (As I see them, at least) Originally by: EveryBruce [ 2009.05.03 15:38:36 ] ME > would you want any assets with the character? [ 2009.05.03 15:38:45 ] ME > I can chuck in a fitted thanatos, sleipnir, hurricane + rapier in the mix [...] [ 2009.05.03 15:41:31 ] ME > though I would perhaps look for a bit more than 17b for , just a little more [ 2009.05.03 15:41:46 ] ME > if you were to go to 17.5 I could chuck in the sleipnir [...] [ 2009.05.03 17:38:58 ] ME > any chance you could go up to 18? [ 2009.05.03 17:39:02 ] ME > will include the carrier for that [ 2009.05.03 17:39:35 ] HIM > hmm [ 2009.05.03 17:40:01 ] ME > character forum says I cant include assets ont he char [ 2009.05.03 17:40:05 ] ME > so will contract them to you separately ... looks like a package deal to me, only contracted separately to get around the forum limitations. Contracting separately means you are going to do a 500 mil contract for the Sleip, and then do the normal char transfer process for the 17b char. If you happen to overpay for that Sleip, you win a Darwin award, congrats. It's interesting how we can come to completely different conclusions from the same snippet of text. They always talked about 17.5b as the total sum of the sale, which included both the char and the ship, where the ship would be contracted to avoid the forum rules. This was not a 17b char sale AND a 500m Sleipnir sale. This was a 17.5b character + Sleipnir sale. A 17.5b contract for the Sleipnir would of course be interpreted as the payment for both, even tho the contract itself can't in any way include the character. The bottom line, regardless of the technicalities or whichever loopholes you try to hide behind, the buyer was lead to believe he was paying for a character transfer, and after paying up (in whichever way that happened), he did not get the char. The very definition of a character trade scam.
Sidephex Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.05.05 10:08:00 - [93] i dont think this needs to be discussed any further. both sides make good arguments. fact is, its a very gray area. its up to a GM to decide. and quite frankly i think that it will be more than 1 gm included in the decision-making on this one. ___________
Future Mutant	Posted - 2009.05.05 10:16:00 - [94] Gray area? hardly- the op sums up the situation nicely. * he wanted to buy my char... but accepted a contract for a sleipnir for 17.5 billion* In other words the op said he was selling a character- and instead scammed him. So many rules were broke here i dont know where to begin. Character scam- Assets with character to be sold- Character sale out of forum- The only gray area i see is if the buyer should be shown any sympathy at all or if they should both be banned
Benedikt Miloslav	Posted - 2009.05.05 11:49:00 - [95] Edited by: Benedikt Miloslav on 05/05/2009 11:54:27 Originally by: Everybruce Please note that he posted his "buyout" offer on the forum 20 hours after he bought my sleipnir. No. That wasn't an offer. The offer was made in-game. He simply waited 20 hours to make a post confirming it. You lied about having made a post makes it even worse. You were selling the character, throughout the conversation, you discussed said character. Even if this can, from the point of view of the average player, be classed as a valid scam, it's simply easier and more profitable for CCP to consider this a violation of the EULA. The question is whether you'll be banned or simply have the ISK taken from you, and whether the buyer will be punished for breaking several of the rules established for the character bazaar, although I've seen that before and no real punishment was given.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Special Projects Executive	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:45:00 - [96] The part about this whole thing that's really amusing to me is that now, everyone who's read this thread knows better than to trust you with anything. Seems like a bad move for a scammer, frankly. Though I suppose we can always count on the stupidity of people to continue to provide you with an ample supply of morons to rip off. --Vel Experience is what you get right after you need it.
Kage Toshimado Gallente The Logistical Nightmare	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:34:00 - [97] EULA violation. I played lawyer for both sides in my head for about 6 hours yesterday on this. When it came down to it, no matter how justified I tried to make the scam sound it still comes out as a violation. The only thing in question to me, is what punishment will be handed down.
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:48:00 - [98] it really shouldnt be a eula violation, it was caused by social engeneering and ignorence on his part, they say the only way you should do it is the safe way right? i will be most upset if it is
Fossil Wolf omen. Gay4Life	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:02:00 - [99] To quote GM Nova; NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned. Furthermore by continuing this discussion we detract from the real issue many of us are having with eve online, the lack of break between signature and post content.
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:05:00 - [100] Originally by: Fossil Wolf To quote GM Nova; NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned. lame, but lol your chars so gonna be CCPDOOKEN if this is trusies, screens and or tearz would be nice
Tadesae	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:09:00 - [101] Originally by: Everybruce Originally by: wth nonames this whole thread shows just how CCP is trying to welcome new players to the game come spend your real life money for a month lose everything you spend your free time gaining and leave because there are no rules to be followed protecting players from people with no moral fiber to me that is the beauty of eve, and how it's so unlike any other MMO with namby pamby developers and what makes me, along with many others want to play... It does make EVE interesting but I'm always left wondering what the heck happened to people like you when you were growing up? It must have been seriously awful for this to be fun for you. Either that or you got picked on a lot and you're taking your revenge out on random strangers in virtual reality because you can't get beat up again in here. If the former I feel bad for you. If the ladder, you need to move on with your life. You'll be much happier.
Everybruce	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:23:00 - [102] Originally by: arbiter reborn Originally by: Fossil Wolf To quote GM Nova; NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned. lame, but lol your chars so gonna be CCPDOOKEN if this is trusies, screens and or tearz would be nice If he had sent the ISK straight up I would have send it back - the fact that he asked for the sleipnir separately and paid 17b for it makes it a different matter.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:25:00 - [103] To the OP, You lied in this very thread by claiming there were no forum posts on this open offer . Are you trying to convince US you did no wrong? Are you looking for us to light candles and do vigils for you when you get banned? Save your creative thinking and excuses for the devs. You'll need everything you can muster to avoid the ban stick headed your way. Personally, I think you bit more than you can chew on this one. Good luck.
Everybruce	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:26:00 - [104] Originally by: Matrix Skye To the OP, You lied in this very thread by claiming there were no forum posts on this open offer . Are you trying to convince US you did no wrong? Are you looking for us to light candles and do vigils for you when you get banned? Save your creative thinking and excuses for the devs. You'll need everything you can muster to avoid the ban stick headed your way. Personally, I think you bit more than you can chew on this one. Good luck. I said that there were no forum confirmation posts, i.e "buyout offer"... "ISK sent" and so on.. as he bought my sleipnir rather than anything else!
Benedikt Miloslav	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:31:00 - [105] Edited by: Benedikt Miloslav on 05/05/2009 16:34:33 Originally by: Tadesae Originally by: Everybruce Originally by: wth nonames this whole thread shows just how CCP is trying to welcome new players to the game come spend your real life money for a month lose everything you spend your free time gaining and leave because there are no rules to be followed protecting players from people with no moral fiber to me that is the beauty of eve, and how it's so unlike any other MMO with namby pamby developers and what makes me, along with many others want to play... It does make EVE interesting but I'm always left wondering what the heck happened to people like you when you were growing up? It must have been seriously awful for this to be fun for you. Either that or you got picked on a lot and you're taking your revenge out on random strangers in virtual reality because you can't get beat up again in here. If the former I feel bad for you. If the ladder, you need to move on with your life. You'll be much happier. I've participated in many forms of scamming, stealing and general grief in EVE. But if you actually knew me, you would see I'm far worse in real life than in the game. However, my childhood was fine, and I was never picked on. So what's your internet analysis of me? Originally by: Everybruce Originally by: Matrix Skye To the OP, You lied in this very thread by claiming there were no forum posts on this open offer . Are you trying to convince US you did no wrong? Are you looking for us to light candles and do vigils for you when you get banned? Save your creative thinking and excuses for the devs. You'll need everything you can muster to avoid the ban stick headed your way. Personally, I think you bit more than you can chew on this one. Good luck. I said that there were no forum confirmation posts, i.e "buyout offer"... "ISK sent" and so on.. as he bought my sleipnir rather than anything else! No. You said there were no forum posts, period. You announced your intent to sell the character in the bazaar, the guy contacted you about said offer and got scammed. Face it, you're lucky if you don't get banned.
Weight What	Posted - 2009.05.05 16:39:00 - [106] Baffling. ----------------------------------------------- Annonymous, trading as "Weight What".
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:03:00 - [107] Edited by: Matrix Skye on 05/05/2009 17:03:13 Originally by: Everybruce I said that there were no forum confirmation posts, i.e "buyout offer"... "ISK sent" and so on.. as he bought my sleipnir rather than anything else! See bold below: Originally by: Everybruce *There were NO* forum posts**, and NO evemails involved in this at all.. he just accepted my sleipnir for 17.5 billion as far as he can see - i've petitioned it, but would like advice from this forum... (it's in your own OP, FFS) You're still lying. And again, it's not us you should be lying to anyway.
Tadesae	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:03:00 - [108] Quote: I've participated in many forms of scamming, stealing and general grief in EVE. But if you actually knew me, you would see I'm far worse in real life than in the game. However, my child hood was fine, and I was never picked on. So what's your internet analysis of me? I won't go that far. All I know is that I can't get my head around it. I imagine some troll in his room getting seriously excited stroking his epeen about lying and cheating people. shrug WTF am I supposed to make of that? It's repulsive and disgusting to imagine people like that.
Nyx Cyth	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:16:00 - [109] Originally by: Fossil Wolf To quote GM Nova; NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned. This, if at any point you mentioned that you were selling your char (which is what this whole thing is) and scammed the player with this information then you are in violation of the EULA irrespective of what happened next Think of it like this, you convinced someone to withdraw their money and pay you for a paperclip and a car, you sent them the paperclip. No police in the world are going to care about money exchanged for a paper-clip (in the same way CCP care not if you scam) but if you sold a car then hold onto the money then you would be arrested irrespective of your arguments
Everybruce	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:24:00 - [110] Originally by: Nyx Cyth Originally by: Fossil Wolf To quote GM Nova; NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned. This, if at any point you mentioned that you were selling your char (which is what this whole thing is) and scammed the player with this information then you are in violation of the EULA irrespective of what happened next Think of it like this, you convinced someone to withdraw their money and pay you for a paperclip and a car, you sent them the paperclip. No police in the world are going to care about money exchanged for a paper-clip (in the same way CCP care not if you scam) but if you sold a car then hold onto the money then you would be arrested irrespective of your arguments So any mention of a char sale nullifies the validity of any scam that happens afterwards? What are the implications of this? Fact of the matter is he asked to buy my sleipnir separately, indicating an entirely different transaction for the ship - if i'd had sold it for 17.5 million by mistake for example, could I go and cry saying he'd scammed me for a sleipnir under the pretence of buying my character?
Benedikt Miloslav	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:46:00 - [111] Originally by: Tadesae Quote: I've participated in many forms of scamming, stealing and general grief in EVE. But if you actually knew me, you would see I'm far worse in real life than in the game. However, my child hood was fine, and I was never picked on. So what's your internet analysis of me? I won't go that far. All I know is that I can't get my head around it. I imagine some troll in his room getting seriously excited stroking his epeen about lying and cheating people. shrug WTF am I supposed to make of that? It's repulsive and disgusting to imagine people like that. Exactly my point. You don't know me, you don't know most people here. Stop trying to judge us. But to give you an idea, I'm no troll, I don't stroke my epeen. I simply don't care. Such attitude has served me well, more so in real life than in games. Originally by: Everybruce Originally by: Nyx Cyth Originally by: Fossil Wolf To quote GM Nova; NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned. This, if at any point you mentioned that you were selling your char (which is what this whole thing is) and scammed the player with this information then you are in violation of the EULA irrespective of what happened next Think of it like this, you convinced someone to withdraw their money and pay you for a paperclip and a car, you sent them the paperclip. No police in the world are going to care about money exchanged for a paper-clip (in the same way CCP care not if you scam) but if you sold a car then hold onto the money then you would be arrested irrespective of your arguments So any mention of a char sale nullifies the validity of any scam that happens afterwards? What are the implications of this? Fact of the matter is he asked to buy my sleipnir separately, indicating an entirely different transaction for the ship - if i'd had sold it for 17.5 million by mistake for example, could I go and cry saying he'd scammed me for a sleipnir under the pretence of buying my character? That's where you fail. 'any mention of a char sale' implies that I could pretend to be buying a character while someone scams me in a legit way, and receive compensation for it. This wasn't the case. You started negotiations with the premise of selling your character, that was announced in the bazaar. You then tried to bypass the rules by scamming him in a contract for the Sleipnir for the price of the character. Even if technically what you did qualifies as a legit scam, and that it's also the buyer's fault for not doing the whole thing correctly, you have to remember that the EULA itself states that you can be banned for any reason at all, with no justification. If you really think the decision will be anything other than 'this is a character scam', you are truly delusional.
Capella Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:56:00 - [112] I feel the banhammer incoming!
Arkerius	Posted - 2009.05.05 18:10:00 - [113] I think a ban would be a tad harsh. Have the ISK refunded and send everyone on their way. Should the OP attempt something like this again...well, good luck to him/her :) That being said...as for whether or not it was a scam...doesn't it seem a tad odd that the scammed amount for the ship was EXACTLY what was agreed upon for the character? If the buyer (scammie) "fell" for buying the ship why didnt the OP (scammer) make it 20 or 30 billion isk? Surely (s)he could have gotten away with it. If the buyer (if he was truly unaware of what was going on) didn't notice the 17.5bil ISK for the contract, surely he wouldn't have noticed a few billion more. It sounds to me like there was some agreement to just pay the whole thing up front through the contract when (whether planned or spur of the moment) the OP decided to circumvent character scam rules through means of the contract, and run with the money.
Benedikt Miloslav	Posted - 2009.05.05 18:14:00 - [114] Yeah, the buyer thought the seller got confused or whatever and offered the sleipnir for 17.5b as the payment for the character. He did see the price and accepted anyway, which basically means he did so under the premise that he was paying for the character, not the sleipnir. If this isn't a character transfer scam, I don't know what is.
Future Mutant	Posted - 2009.05.05 18:46:00 - [115] Edited by: Future Mutant on 05/05/2009 18:48:11 Originally by: Everybruce Originally by: Fossil Wolf To quote GM Nova; NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned. This, if at any point you mentioned that you were selling your char (which is what this whole thing is) and scammed the player with this information then you are in violation of the EULA irrespective of what happened next So any mention of a char sale nullifies the validity of any scam that happens afterwards? What are the implications of this? Fact of the matter is he asked to buy my sleipnir separately, indicating an entirely different transaction for the ship - if i'd had sold it for 17.5 million by mistake for example, could I go and cry saying he'd scammed me for a sleipnir under the pretence of buying my character? The facts are clear from your own posts- You mentioned selling him a character, violated several rules- and scammed him in the process. And the char trading rules are clear on this- also no you can not claim you were scammed for a sleipnir because no assets of any real worth can be traded with a character.
Michael Corinthos	Posted - 2009.05.05 19:54:00 - [116] Originally by: wth nonames some lines should not be crossed but again it take a person with some kind of moral fiber to see this OMG HAVE YOU NO VIDEO GAME MORALS?? YOU ALL NEED TO FIND VIDEO GAME JESUS AND GO TO VIDEO GAME CHURCH!!!
Megan Aven Amarr	Posted - 2009.05.05 21:17:00 - [117] Originally by: Michael Corinthos OMG HAVE YOU NO VIDEO GAME MORALS?? YOU ALL NEED TO FIND VIDEO GAME JESUS AND GO TO VIDEO GAME CHURCH!!! Are you using video game time to play video games? No, you are using real life time. So if you scam someone for 17.5B in a character scam - think about how much time did he/she had to spend acquiring that. If you kill a team mate on Counterstrike you have no video game morals. But if you "steal" hundreds of hours from someone's life, that's a bit different.
Enden Assulu Caldari Blood Money Inc. Blood Money Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.05 21:33:00 - [118] ITT: Lots of but hurt alts that got scammed and will return to WoW in the next few weeks.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:04:00 - [119] Its pretty damn clear that the deal was 17.5B for char plus assets. He gave you 17.5B, but you you gave him a ship and no char. If characters scams are bannable, you should be banned. The fact that it hasn't happened yet makes me question whether or not character scams are bannable offenses.
Elora Narst	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:17:00 - [120] I want to chime in and confirm what many others have already said. No matter what the technicalities of the case are, the OP has clearly performed a character transfer scam. It is not a "gray area", and there are really no fine points to discuss here. The said scam is quite lame too: there was no need for extensive social engineering, since the victim believed (legitimately and rightfully so) that a character transfer transaction would be CCP-guaranteed. Back in the good old days of EVEmail GTC selling, there were plenty of similar scammer wannabes who thought they can circumvent CCP's rules on pure technicalities. They tried scamming people on GTC transactions. A banhammer was the result every single time. Incidentally, every character transfer transaction means an additional $20 deposited into CCP's wallet. Every character transfer scam would more or less equate to an $20 loss for CCP. Going after wannabe scammers like the OP makes a whole lot of financial sense. Finally, to the OP (if he has not received the banhammer yet): yes, it is quite possible to scam people out of many billions of their ISK without breaking the EULA. It is not that hard - you just need to have a little bit of creativity and patience. You, sir, just fail at scamming - and your posts are not entertaining either.

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