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Dzil
Caldari
Second Quadrant Ice Division
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Posted - 2009.05.05 22:27:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Elora Narst
I want to replace your reality, and substitute my own:
No matter what the technicalities of the case are, the OP has clearly performed a character transfer scam. It is not a "gray area", and there are really no fine points to discuss here.
That right folks, there was no discussion of selling the slepnir separately, no request to set up a contract for 500m, this doesn't look one bit like the legal Jita scams we see every day. Move along.
Quote:
Incidentally, every character transfer transaction means an additional $20 deposited into CCP's wallet. Every character transfer scam would more or less equate to an $20 loss for CCP. Going after wannabe scammers like the OP makes a whole lot of financial sense.
And that's precisely why, despite this being an item exchange scam, the OP will probably get a healthy whack from the GM pwnhammer. Probably not quite banned, but disenfranchised. Nothing says I'm right quite like your friend Andrew Jackson.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Black Serpent Technologies
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Posted - 2009.05.05 22:28:00 -
[122]
This is my outlook on this:
- OP might have been 'unclear' about certain things such as the char bazaar post, the fact he DID have at thread
going there with the intention of selling his char counts towards victim's defence because you could validate him
sending the 17.5bil was with the intention of buying the character after reading forum, regardless of what was said in private chat.
- OP however never stated in forum or private chat that he/she ACCEPTED victim's offer and neither did OP state he agreed to sell the character.
- OP however DID imply accepting the offer by making a contract for the sleipnir.
The biggest 'mootpoint' I guess is the private chat and how big of a role it plays in GM's deciding.
Because if you take the ENTIRE private chat out of the equasion, all the victim did was accept a 17.5bil contract for a sleipnir.
If the victim had directly SENT the isk to the OP (stating perhaps it was for the charsale as stated on forum) it wouldave been an easy matter
because then it was quite clear the victim sent the isk with the premise of buying the char in accordance to OP's forum post.
HOWEVER the victim DID NOT do this.. and if all you guys have said about contract system NOT ABLE to constitute as a EULA violation I can't help but
conclude that this constitutes as a very well contract scram, nothing more, nothing less.
I'm very anxious to find out how the GM's rule over this issue... and I hope they/someone will post in this thread once it's been decided and (if at all) any punishment/reimbursement has been dealt.
__________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Jenny5
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Posted - 2009.05.05 22:47:00 -
[123]
a bit on the wrong side of being right, but shouldn't be an eula violation as the proper procedures for safe character transfer were not followed.
i would have asked the GM's first before trying to pull something like this though....better safe than sorry....
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Jenny5
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Posted - 2009.05.05 22:48:00 -
[124]
a bit on the wrong side of being right, but shouldn't be an eula violation as the proper procedures for safe character transfer were not followed.
i would have asked the GM's first before trying to pull something like this though....better safe than sorry....
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dr doooo
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Posted - 2009.05.05 23:34:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Sidephex
i dont think this needs to be discussed any further.
both sides make good arguments. fact is, its a very gray area.
its up to a GM to decide. and quite frankly i think that it will be more than 1 gm included in the decision-making on this one.
Looking at it from the GMs point of view, I doubt it will take more than one GM, or more than a few seconds for that matter. If character scams are bannable.... the rest is wannabe hot-shot spaceship defence-lawyers.
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Information Broker
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Posted - 2009.05.06 00:51:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Lexa Hellfury
Just to throw another kink in this:
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
5. The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK.
IMO, this is just some moron who didn't follow the rules and wound up buying a Sliepnir for 17b.
This.
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Sidephex
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.05.06 01:16:00 -
[127]
Originally by: dr doooo
Originally by: Sidephex
i dont think this needs to be discussed any further.
both sides make good arguments. fact is, its a very gray area.
its up to a GM to decide. and quite frankly i think that it will be more than 1 gm included in the decision-making on this one.
Looking at it from the GMs point of view, I doubt it will take more than one GM, or more than a few seconds for that matter. If character scams are bannable.... the rest is wannabe hot-shot spaceship defence-lawyers.
possibly. tbh id call it eula offense too. but what do i know? or anybody else in here? lets wait and c what happens.
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Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.05.06 07:01:00 -
[128]
To be honest a lot comes down to whether the buyer sent the evemail confirming the payment for the character was being done via a contract for a sleipnir. Otherwise the buyer hasn't followed the rules either (how does a contract for a sleipnir become valid payment for a character? this is precisely why ccp wants chars sold assetless in the first place)and the whole thing is just a mess. While i would say the op has character scammed, the buyer let it happen and if he had followed the rules there wouldn't be a problem. Reverse the transaction and temp ban them both so they can think about what they have done 
If the buyer sent an evemail before or even immediately after accepting the contract then the op should be in more trouble.
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Everybruce
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Posted - 2009.05.06 09:24:00 -
[129]
Still waiting for some sort of confirmation.
To 'that man', yes - he did ask for a sleipnir at 500m, can't you read?
Also - all communication i've had with him has been posted, nothing as suggested above happened.
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igil
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Posted - 2009.05.06 13:31:00 -
[130]
Edited by: igil on 06/05/2009 13:31:58
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
5. The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK.
It is worth discussing this rule a bit, because some people seem to be confused on the issue.
The asset rule was put into affect, as it has been described to me, to prevent problems from arising when a seller claims the character will come with assets, and upon transfer no assets existing. The purpose of contracting assets prior to sale is to guarantee that the assets ARE transferred. It's a fairly common practice in character sales these days.
Finally, in this situation that rule was never broken, as the character -would- have been stripped of all assets prior to transfer. The Sleipnir was used as a 'throw-in' to adjust the price of the character (Think of a character trade... I'll give you this char + 4b isk etc.). The sleipnir contract was therefore used as the payment method.
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Mista Sexamalicious
Sexa Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:43:00 -
[131]
I foresee, CCP exercising:
AMENDMENTS TO EULA
CCP may, in its sole discretion, amend the EULA from time to time. If the EULA is amended, you will be asked to review the amended EULA when you log into your Account, and to indicate and confirm your acceptance of the amended EULA by clicking the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons.
If the amendment alters a material term of the EULA that is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in the termination section below.
Found it in Here
I foresee:
"Secure Character Trade" Being added to Account Services.
________________________________________________________
Real Men don't use Local.
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Dzil
Caldari
Second Quadrant Ice Division
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Posted - 2009.05.06 15:15:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Mista Sexamalicious
I foresee, CCP exercising:
AMENDMENTS TO EULA
CCP may, in its sole discretion, amend the EULA from time to time. If the EULA is amended, you will be asked to review the amended EULA when you log into your Account, and to indicate and confirm your acceptance of the amended EULA by clicking the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons.
If the amendment alters a material term of the EULA that is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in the termination section below.
Found it in Here
I foresee:
"Secure Character Trade" Being added to Account Services.
Surprised it hasn't been already. Followed by secure character transfers by ingame contract. Followed by this going from against the EULA to "You know what folks? We spent months building a system that prevents you from getting scammed if you can read - we're done here. Best of luck."
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Surfs Down
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Posted - 2009.05.06 16:10:00 -
[133]
Still more spaceship lawyers needed.
EveryBruce - please post so we know you are alive.
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.05.06 17:39:00 -
[134]
Quick call Judge Judy
///my vote is for sale, he who sends the most iskies gets it\\\ |
Barakkus
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Posted - 2009.05.06 17:48:00 -
[135]
imo fault of the buyer for not reading the contract before hitting accept...
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Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar
Asset Reallocation Specialists
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2009.05.06 17:50:00 -
[136]
Why the hell don't people follow the bloody rules for char transfer to avoid **** like this happening?
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Arkerius
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Posted - 2009.05.06 18:24:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Barakkus
imo fault of the buyer for not reading the contract before hitting accept...
then why wouldn't the OP have put it up for more? if (s)he "got away" with 17.5 billion why not just make it 20 or 30? 17.5 billion looks nothing close to 500 mil (while the "999" Jita scams are more believable, at a quick glance at least)
mistaking 499,999,999,999 for 500 mil would make more sense than mistaking 17,500,000,000 for 500 mil. It looks like the buyer DID read the contract before hitting accept, because even an idiot with half a brain (yes...an idiot, with half a brain) could make a distinction between 17.5 bil and 500 mil.
That said, buyer still shouldn't have accepted the contract on pure suspiciousness...but the OP's methods were a tad less than kosher, even by scamming standards.
I'd say take all the money back from the OP, but only give half back to the buyer (scammed). The other half can be "lost to the abyss". Give them a little slap on the wrist and send them on their way. The End
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2009.05.06 18:40:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Arkerius
Originally by: Barakkus
imo fault of the buyer for not reading the contract before hitting accept...
then why wouldn't the OP have put it up for more? if (s)he "got away" with 17.5 billion why not just make it 20 or 30? 17.5 billion looks nothing close to 500 mil (while the "999" Jita scams are more believable, at a quick glance at least)
mistaking 499,999,999,999 for 500 mil would make more sense than mistaking 17,500,000,000 for 500 mil. It looks like the buyer DID read the contract before hitting accept, because even an idiot with half a brain (yes...an idiot, with half a brain) could make a distinction between 17.5 bil and 500 mil.
That said, buyer still shouldn't have accepted the contract on pure suspiciousness...but the OP's methods were a tad less than kosher, even by scamming standards.
I'd say take all the money back from the OP, but only give half back to the buyer (scammed). The other half can be "lost to the abyss". Give them a little slap on the wrist and send them on their way. The End
If you read the chat:
[ 2009.05.03 15:40:52 ] HIM > Atm I am consolidating assets, but I don't see being able to come up with much more than 17.5b.
I believe the person scammed said they could only come up with 17.5b, why would you make the contract for more if it would be possible to go over what they had available on the character and the contract fail, being a huge tip off to the person that isn't reading the contract?
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Everybruce
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Posted - 2009.05.06 19:05:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Surfs Down
Still more spaceship lawyers needed.
EveryBruce - please post so we know you are alive.
i'm still alive, and still have the money.. and am still playing eve, well.. ship spinning lol
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Imertu Solientai
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.06 19:15:00 -
[140]
Originally by: wth nonames
Originally by: Dani SP
I say don't ban him!!!
This is New Eden, an hostile galaxy. They were trading ingame assets. character is an asset itself from my point of view ofcourse. and he was not asking for real money, but isk.
its like scamming with PLEXtentions , CCP said it was legit. Then this is the same on a larger scale. Obviously nobody likes being scammed, and no one would like to be involved on this.
But seriously if someone is SO innocent to give out 17.5b, and this dude managed to fake it and make him send the isk... he deserves it. Want a pimping kickass character, work it yourself.
HELL leave things like theyre now and lets celebrate most succesful scam I ever remember of (after the one with 10b PLEX from some kid playing EVE and his father arguing for it)
I personally say: YOU ROCK at scamming.
are there no lines people like you will not cross
The line between real life and internet spaceships. One which you seem to be unaware of.
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g0ggalor
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Posted - 2009.05.06 19:42:00 -
[141]
Here is the section of the EULA as it pertains to character transfer, with important parts bolded: Quote:
CHARACTER TRANSFER
You may transfer a character from your account to another account, either belonging to you or another person. This transfer option is available from the EVE Online Account Management web site https://secure.eve-online.com/login.asp and is subject to fees and the following limitations: You may not offer to transfer characters except your own, or act as a "broker" or intermediary (for compensation or otherwise) for anyone wishing to transfer or obtain characters. The transferee will obtain all rights to your character in a single transaction, and you will retain absolutely no control or rights over the characters, items or attributes of that character. You may not transfer any characters whose attributes are, in whole or in part, developed, or which own items, objects or currency obtained or acquired, in violation of the EULA.
Any character transfers or attempted transfers not in accordance with the foregoing terms is prohibited and void, and shall not be binding on CCP. A transfer or attempted transfer of a character is entirely at the risk of the parties to such transaction. CCP is not liable to any person (whether transferor, transferee or otherwise) for any acts, omissions, statements, representations, defaults or liabilities of the parties in connection with such a transaction.
I don't see any violations here. Even in the Character Bazzar rules, the wording seems to indicate that char scamming is legit.
Quote:
In an effort to reduce the amount of character scams...
Notice it says, "reduce," not "eliminate" or "prevent."
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Fossil Wolf
omen.
Gay4Life
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:13:00 -
[142]
Quote:
NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.
- GM Nova
Notice it says, "NO" not "Some" or "One off's."
Furthermore by continuing this discussion we detract from the real issue many of us are having with eve online, the lack of break between signature and post content. |
Barakkus
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:16:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Fossil Wolf
Quote:
NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.
- GM Nova
Notice it says, "NO" not "Some" or "One off's."
But he sold a ship before the character, that was what the agreed upon contract was for, a ship...unfortunately the person accepting the contract didn't look at the amount.
Can't sell a character to someone with no isk left now can you?
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g0ggalor
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:31:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Fossil Wolf
Quote:
NO forms of Character transfer scams are allowed. We are very, very strict about this. Anyone scamming ISK from players by pretending to be selling a character will be banned.
- GM Nova
Notice it says, "NO" not "Some" or "One off's."
They should put that in their legal documents and word it as strongly in the char bizarre forum instead of waiting for someone to scam and having a GM post it in an obscure thread.
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Lady Cynosural
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Posted - 2009.05.06 21:43:00 -
[145]
im everybruce, i will be unable to post as i've been banned for 1 week on an entirely unrelated matter - be careful what you say in local.
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Dzil
Caldari
Second Quadrant Ice Division
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Posted - 2009.05.06 21:46:00 -
[146]
Interestingly, the accused scammer in the linked thread from GM Nova got unbanned after GMs determined, I would assume, that it was just a case of stupidity with a character scam mask on it.
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Dzil
Caldari
Second Quadrant Ice Division
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Posted - 2009.05.06 21:52:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Lady Cynosural
im everybruce, i will be unable to post as i've been banned for 1 week on an entirely unrelated matter - be careful what you say in local.
Heh, looking at your post history (a failed lottery scam with Everybruce playing like he won something) - I'd say that's probably legit.
And ironic.
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Evthron Macyntire
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Posted - 2009.05.06 22:46:00 -
[148]
You baited him with the offer of a character sale, this is such a grey area that it could go either way.
------------------------------
Sigs like this. |
Flem'berk
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Posted - 2009.05.06 23:33:00 -
[149]
"The character being sold must be stripped of ingame assets of any significant value before being transferred. Items cannot be listed among the character's valuable assets, only skills, implants and reputation. You are buying/selling the character ONLY and nothing else. Ships and items can be readily bought on the market for ISK."
*first rule he broke.
2009.05.03 18:45:51 ] HIM > Either contract it now to , or contract it later to HIS ALT
"The character being sold must receive the ISK for the purchase."
*second rule he broke
Charcatar sale was also not done on the forums so think that brakes another rule.
also
"The 'For Sale/Auction' post must be made by the character being offered. This is being added to prevent scams for characters that have been misrepresented, banned, non-existent, etc."
so he broke the rules and is a scam.
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Mista Sexamalicious
Sexa Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.07 02:12:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Dzil
Originally by: Mista Sexamalicious
I foresee, CCP exercising:
AMENDMENTS TO EULA
CCP may, in its sole discretion, amend the EULA from time to time. If the EULA is amended, you will be asked to review the amended EULA when you log into your Account, and to indicate and confirm your acceptance of the amended EULA by clicking the "ACCEPT" and/or "CONFIRMED" buttons.
If the amendment alters a material term of the EULA that is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in the termination section below.
Found it in Here
I foresee:
"Secure Character Trade" Being added to Account Services.
Surprised it hasn't been already. Followed by secure character transfers by ingame contract. Followed by this going from against the EULA to "You know what folks? We spent months building a system that prevents you from getting scammed if you can read - we're done here. Best of luck."
YTBFH. If I remember correctly they worked D&N building the code for IGST of GTCs, resulting from the immense amount of GTC scamming, because some knucklehead posted
"... Remember 'Nipper' Will Always Be Your Best Friend."
Basicly, what I'm Saying, like you, is they already have what they need to reconcile any, and all, future 'Old College Tries', aspirations of testing the boundaries of the System here in EVE.
BTW. I can careless if CCP do not tighten the reigns, If they don't I prob scam the hell out of the community in Char Trades.
________________________________________________________
Real Men don't use Local.
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