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Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.15 23:58:00 - [601] Originally by: Aranis Nax Originally by: Seishi Maru You cannot simply make graphs of damage agaisnt armor and say that this is the real damage and that all is OK. There is a VERR large ammount of shield tanked ships around eve. Also do not base the survival of the minmatar ships on the tanking FLAVOR since that may change .. specially when rigs are reviewed. Among ships you need to fire into PVP where shields are at least as relevant or more relevant than armor: Drake, rave,rokh, scorpion, maelstrom,half of ishtars,chimeras,wyverns, phoenix, nalgfar any capital ship in fact to be fair, a lot of Hictors, falcon rook,arazu... And on that I am not putting minmatar T2 shield tankers.. because those are weak against minmatar ammo, but at same time ammar t2 are "weak" against lasers. The damage selection could be used to balance minmatar but for that all the ammo would need to be fixed. Make fusion top damage, with same damage as Amatter, make an 80% EM 20% kin as second highest damage (same as EMP now, and keep plasma as it is. All that with changing reload time to 5 seconds MAX! You're welcome to make your own graphs. I have made a base shield resist graph before, discussion on that simply didn't continue. There's soo many possible difference in resists, ship setups that I'm not gonna bother doing a graph for every request asked of me. That's why I posted the graph I use so people can go nuts on it all they want. There is another graph out there that is very very nice and better overall then mine but it was made for Excel and I'm too cheap to get Excel . Naughtyboy's spreadsheet, it's still being maintained on scrapheap challenge, last I checked. the point remains that you cannot present ONLY "against armor"damage graphs without placing always at same post slinks for the shield ones or normalized ones. Otherwise you push general opinion on a biased way. Or you put generic damage graphs or put all the common types of target graphs. Selectign one and putting that is biased, no matter what.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.16 00:09:00 - [602] Originally by: Seishi Maru the point remains that you cannot present ONLY "against armor"damage graphs without placing always at same post slinks for the shield ones or normalized ones. Otherwise you push general opinion on a biased way. Or you put generic damage graphs or put all the common types of target graphs. Selectign one and putting that is biased, no matter what. If you're interested in it, Nax's original shield graph is here. I do have one thing to say about it though...the advantage that Amarr has against shields is far, far, far out of proportion with the advantage the Maelstrom has against Armor. The only thing I can think of to justify that is that people tend to ignore their sheilds when tanking. But that still leaves Caldari in the dust.
Jan'z Kolna Dark Star Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.16 00:27:00 - [603] I'd settle for following 'fix' for tempest : - -1 hi-slot - +1 med-slot - +40 m/s base speed - mass and agility pre- QR - 100 m3 drone bay more options with slight increase in dps (drones) versatility ,right? all without touching large AC's CETERUM CENSEO CALDARI NERFAM ESSE
Ecky X	Posted - 2009.08.16 01:08:00 - [604] Originally by: Jan'z Kolna I'd settle for following 'fix' for tempest : - -1 hi-slot - +1 med-slot - +40 m/s base speed - mass and agility pre- QR - 100 m3 drone bay more options with slight increase in dps (drones) versatility ,right? all without touching large AC's I like it, but I "feel" it would still be lacking in some way. I'd rather have that Tempest than the current one, though.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.16 01:17:00 - [605] Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Jan'z Kolna I'd settle for following 'fix' for tempest : - -1 hi-slot - +1 med-slot - +40 m/s base speed - mass and agility pre- QR - 100 m3 drone bay more options with slight increase in dps (drones) versatility ,right? all without touching large AC's I like it, but I "feel" it would still be lacking in some way. I'd rather have that Tempest than the current one, though. I'd go for 60m/s and..... wait for it - a giant dronebay reserve. Keep 75m/3 bandwidth, increase drone bay to... I don't know... 200m3? Oh, don't you love choices.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.16 02:10:00 - [606] Keep it serious people. 40ms is not a seriously believable request as it would make it faster than BC. Projectiles need rework. FACT. Tempest need slight changes to give it a role. Maelstrom role scream close range, therefore tempest need somethign to make it a bit better as sniper. The most reasonable ideas have been (besides the NEEDED PROJECTILES FIX) Increase PG enough so sniper tempest can drop RC II, make it able to warp out without MWD trick in a bit UNDER 10 seconds. A tiny bit more locking range. And we have a better sniper than maelstrom. But to make it competitive with other races the projectiles still need to be fixed.
Rakareo	Posted - 2009.08.16 02:25:00 - [607] My Setup. High: 6 x 650mm, 2 Unstable Neuts Mids: 100mn Mwd, Disruptor, Web, Heavy Cap booster, Choice of (Scram, sensor booster, ECCM) Lows: 1 LAR, 1600mm tung, gyro, 2 EANMs, DCU Rigs: 3 trimarks I use this fit, admittedly with slaves but it is good setup IMO. Plus points: - Enough EFHP for your neuts to break down cap dependant ships ie active tank/ weapons using cap. - A/c don't need cap. Barrage has good range. Can dictate damage type. - 5th mid slot to customise for smaller ships, possible EWAR, heavy tackle - 1 rep allows regenerative ability rather then pure plate setups. Neg points - Relatively wet dps. However more of a cap battling ship. - Not amazing without slave set. I think the tempest is balanced. It may not be a tanking monster or a melt your face battleship but from my experience you can kill alot in it. "Why does it have more than 1000 more shield hitpoints than Armour when its slot layout heavily implies us to go for more armour tanking?" /me shrugs at that, doesnt seem right to me either. "Why does Republic Fleet EMP have a total 52.5 total damage multiplier when Amarr Navy Multifrequecy and Caldari/Gallente Navy Antimatter total 55.5?" IMO having the choice of different damage negates the lower dps (admittedly slightly tied down by range and distribution of damage type of the ammo type. Barrage is definatly sub par compared to scorch which is just dirty. "Why is there so little difference in damage, range and falloff between 800mm / Dual 650mm and Dual 425mm autocannons?" Not looked at the stats myself. Its nice however to have a different concepts for dmg distribution in guns i.e. low optimals and variance of optimal + huge falloff verses hugely variable optimals + tight falloffs. Nice to keep the individuality of races and thier weaponary however in this case its forcing it the be out off line with other races guns. Like i say have not looked deeply into it. "Why is it we cant have more replies from CCP that involve testing in Close quarter, small gang pvp? instead of always 100+ man blob fleet warfare, case in point there decision to change the Scorpion to make it now more useless to those that would like to use it for the reasons in bold?" Eve is like any other business and will try to make as much cash as possible. This means keeping the largest majority of players happy and they possible see large scale warfare to contain a higher player base. Doesnt nessecarily mean they wont try to adjust small gang pvp its just lower on the list. Ps. Good post, can't take anymore "shall i fly a banana or a slighty unripe pear" posts anymore.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.16 02:29:00 - [608] Yes, you have the DPS of a cruiser and a relatively unimpressive mixed tank. Your 2 heavy neuts take a fair bit of cap, yes. But you can fit 2 heavy neuts on nearly every battleship and still be more effective than the tempest. No, it's quite trash. Try flying a mega with the same setup (2 heavy neuts, 6 blasters, mix tank). I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Rakareo	Posted - 2009.08.16 03:02:00 - [609] Pretty sure i wouldn't catch as much as i do currently with my tempest setup if i was to do that with a megathron. 5th slot means i got initial point then get close and cut off mwd with scram to stop them running back to the gate. Barrage also stops you from being kited as badly as blaster boats. Difference like that mean you win more fights. Simply playing top trumps with eve fit defence rating and paper dps doesn't always give you the right answers.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.16 03:08:00 - [610] Originally by: Rakareo Pretty sure i wouldn't catch as much as i do currently with my tempest setup if i was to do that with a megathron. 5th slot means i got initial point then get close and cut off mwd with scram to stop them running back to the gate. Barrage also stops you from being kited as badly as blaster boats. Difference like that mean you win more fights. Simply playing top trumps with eve fit defence rating and paper dps doesn't always give you the right answers. Please keep claiming I'm an EFT warrior, you'd only be the 5 millionth person to do so. It's trash and a utility mid, 2 utility highs and slightly above average speed doesn't change that. At all. In fact, please tell me what a similarly fit phoon doesn't do better, sans the 5th mid.

Rakareo	Posted - 2009.08.16 03:25:00 - [611] "Please keep claiming I'm an EFT warrior, you'd only be the 5 millionth person to do so." I am not twelve reverse physcology doesn't really work on me and plus i was trying to say look at the bigger picture, not that you spend your life on eve fit. Also i am assuming you are talking about a plated neut/phoon with siege missle launchers 2 BSU setups? No rep means you wont be able to sustain longer engagements with varying levels of imcomming dps; finite dps is only good for the seriously high sustained dps fights. Siege missle launchers are nice dps if you're actually shooting BS, drones admittedly will deal better with cruisers but lets say your dps on anything sub battleship will be "trash". Anyhow phoons are still good, I am saying that the tempest is more versitile and if i had to give up one of the ships it would be the phoon over the pest.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.16 04:00:00 - [612] Originally by: Rakareo "Please keep claiming I'm an EFT warrior, you'd only be the 5 millionth person to do so." I am not twelve reverse physcology doesn't really work on me and plus i was trying to say look at the bigger picture, not that you spend your life on eve fit. Also i am assuming you are talking about a plated neut/phoon with siege missle launchers 2 BSU setups? No rep means you wont be able to sustain longer engagements with varying levels of imcomming dps; finite dps is only good for the seriously high sustained dps fights. Siege missle launchers are nice dps if you're actually shooting BS, drones admittedly will deal better with cruisers but lets say your dps on anything sub battleship will be "trash". Anyhow phoons are still good, I am saying that the tempest is more versitile and if i had to give up one of the ships it would be the phoon over the pest. No, I said similar fit. Like, the fit you had on your tempest, but on the phoon. Assume 4x siege 2x AC 2x Heavy neut You get: more EHP, more DPS, more speed, more agility. You lose: two mids, one due to TP (which usefulness mitigates the second mid loss). You have to downgrade to a medium injector but can run both neuts and the rep for 4.5mins, so no real loss. So picking between more EHP, DPS, speed and agility vs a mid (and a half), you'd pick the mid? Fit for reference. [Typhoon, rkakaka] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II Ballistic Control System II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage L Dual 425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage L Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 Vespa EC-600 x5
Rakareo	Posted - 2009.08.16 11:11:00 - [613] ok read this carefully - You will not get as many kills with this ship as you wont catch anything. This time i am going to call you a eve fit warrior beacause you have gone on it and done some stats bashing not even considering my points over the 5 mids. Maybe the points were not bold enough so you could spend some time considering the points so i will make it simple. Mwd + scram + TP + medium injection on a phoon will not catch anywhere near as many ships. Medium injector on a ship that can only tackle at best 10km means your gonna have to rag your mwd .. then apparently neut them sufficiently to break an active tank. 5 mids on a tempest: Mwd + Web + Injector + Disruptor + scram = good solid tackling of any battleships that want to run away. Mwd + Web + injector + Disruptor + Sensor booster = more likly to tag BC's / cruisers Mwd + web + Injector + Disruptor + ECCM = some protection against EWAR. I can see what you are saying the numbers do suggest the tempest isnt very good in comparison on paper. Don't give me the i am not a evefit warrior in this case because that is all hat you are replying with. I am saying think about the practical aspects of flying the ship actually engaging and getting kills. However i do agree with sorting A/Cs i think your right on that; the falloff malarky isnt very "neat". Certainly a bigger drone bay would fall in line with the versitility aspect and style of the ship.
Aranis Nax Minmatar Seraphim Blades	Posted - 2009.08.16 14:11:00 - [614] Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Aranis Nax Originally by: Seishi Maru ... You're welcome to make your own graphs. I have made a base shield resist graph before, discussion on that simply didn't continue. There's soo many possible difference in resists, ship setups that I'm not gonna bother doing a graph for every request asked of me. That's why I posted the graph I use so people can go nuts on it all they want. There is another graph out there that is very very nice and better overall then mine but it was made for Excel and I'm too cheap to get Excel . Naughtyboy's spreadsheet, it's still being maintained on scrapheap challenge, last I checked. the point remains that you cannot present ONLY "against armor"damage graphs without placing always at same post slinks for the shield ones or normalized ones. Otherwise you push general opinion on a biased way. Or you put generic damage graphs or put all the common types of target graphs. Selectign one and putting that is biased, no matter what. I didn't just make a single graph as an attempt to put in bias. I made three(+1 for a suggestion change). That it was one later on, was mostly because it was being argued it wasn't accurate by Seriously Bored(who saw the error of her logical ways ). For any more graphs on specific resists you're very very welcome to make your own. I have posted the spreadsheet I made for it. It's pretty straightforward to use. Surely you read the post you quoted in detail.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.16 14:50:00 - [615] Originally by: Rakareo ok read this carefully - You will not get as many kills with this ship as you wont catch anything. This time i am going to call you a eve fit warrior beacause you have gone on it and done some stats bashing not even considering my points over the 5 mids. Maybe the points were not bold enough so you could spend some time considering the points so i will make it simple. Mwd + scram + TP + medium injection on a phoon will not catch anywhere near as many ships. Medium injector on a ship that can only tackle at best 10km means your gonna have to rag your mwd .. then apparently neut them sufficiently to break an active tank. 5 mids on a tempest: Mwd + Web + Injector + Disruptor + scram = good solid tackling of any battleships that want to run away. Mwd + Web + injector + Disruptor + Sensor booster = more likly to tag BC's / cruisers Mwd + web + Injector + Disruptor + ECCM = some protection against EWAR. I can see what you are saying the numbers do suggest the tempest isnt very good in comparison on paper. Don't give me the i am not a evefit warrior in this case because that is all hat you are replying with. I am saying think about the practical aspects of flying the ship actually engaging and getting kills. However i do agree with sorting A/Cs i think your right on that; the falloff malarky isnt very "neat". Certainly a bigger drone bay would fall in line with the versitility aspect and style of the ship. You're talking about solo? Hahahahaha. Sorry, no, carry on. No no, the tempest is awesome.
Jan'z Kolna Dark Star Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.16 15:33:00 - [616] thread title is 'tempest needs changing'.. how about radical change: MAKE IT TIER 1: - swap attributes with typhoon : 1.mass 2.speed 3.agility 4.hit points 5.PG and cpu 6.building requirements - slots 7/6/6 , 6 turrets - bigger drone bay is an option Result: - benefits younger players greatly - no need to train 3 weapon systems and support skills , they go for phoon because of price , so after change , cheapo tempest would be natural choice - turns tempest into pure autocannon platform, with bonuses, speed, agility well suited for that role ; PG is not an issue like on phoon currently, due to lower PG required for ACs - can be used in RR gangs just like now, with added possibility of nice 3-4 slots for ewar ( painters, dual eccm ? ) - solo capability retained for those who really, really want it - can be used for missions with greater effect - enough PG for 6x1200mm arties + shield tank, 3x gyro like maelstrom - another great benefit for younger players - can be used as fleet sniper - although I'd cede this role to maestrom entirely ; still, it'd be viable, perhaps slightly worse than now on TQ - but tempest is inferior sniper anyway surely I don't want tempest as 'minmatar megathron' ( 20% dmg boost proposed ) or 'minmatar armageddon' ( range boost proposed ) and I don't want another phoon, only with projectiles instead of torps just pining for uniqueness for this ship my tuppence CETERUM CENSEO CALDARI NERFAM ESSE
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.16 15:59:00 - [617] Originally by: Aranis Nax I didn't just make a single graph as an attempt to put in bias. I made three(+1 for a suggestion change). That it was one later on, was mostly because it was being argued it wasn't accurate by Seriously Bored(who saw the error of her logical ways ). For any more graphs on specific resists you're very very welcome to make your own. I have posted the spreadsheet I made for it. It's pretty straightforward to use. Surely you read the post you quoted in detail. that is not the main point. Point is even if you make possible to other do their own graphs, this forum is a political tool. Presenting only 1 view repeatedly in an image like that is a classical way of biasing the opinion of less mentally focused readers. Not saying that that is what YOU wanted, just saying that this should be avoided as long as possible. OTherwise soon we can manipulate people minds so they start believing tempest is the best ship in game.
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.16 20:16:00 - [618] Originally by: Seishi Maru that is not the main point. Point is even if you make possible to other do their own graphs, this forum is a political tool. Presenting only 1 view repeatedly in an image like that is a classical way of biasing the opinion of less mentally focused readers. Not saying that that is what YOU wanted, just saying that this should be avoided as long as possible. OTherwise soon we can manipulate people minds so they start believing tempest is the best ship in game. I'm not sure anyone is going to start believe that any time soon, Seishi It's a little hard to get around the implications of the graphs, I know. I was surprised that ACs were performing that well in comparison to the other races against armor, with EMP even. (I imagine it would be better with Fusion?) I had to do the math myself to believe it. But in an omnitanked world where Minmatar are already counted out, it seems the ammo damage type makes up a bunch of ground. Here's where it starts to fail though: First, it isn't nearly the advantage that Amarr has against shields. In Nax's graphs, the advantage Amarr has there is staggering. Whereas their damage against armor is the worst, but not by a very significant amount. That was very different before the -10% everyone got to EM armor resistance. You can argue that in an armor tanked world, that's fair. I'm not sure anyone playing Caldari would agree, though. Second, people are most likely fill up their largest resist hole with a dedicated module. Unless you're headed into a 1v1 or know the race of your target, I don't hear of many people fitting a Shield Explosive Hardener or an EM Armor Hardener. The opposite is much more likely. Can you really account for that when trying to come up with a balanced 'fix'? I'm not sure, but I think it's an important point.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.16 20:29:00 - [619] The graphs were unsurprising IMO. I'm assuming they don't account for hit quality in falloff, so even against armor ACs even out with everything somewhere closer to 12km. Outside of that, megapulse are superior. Inside (your graph doesn't include drones), the mega is a better choice. That's with omni tanks, favorable to the damage type of ACs... I don't see anything out of order except the omission of hit quality and drones.
Aranis Nax Minmatar Seraphim Blades	Posted - 2009.08.17 00:22:00 - [620] Originally by: Seishi Maru Originally by: Aranis Nax I didn't just make a single graph as an attempt to put in bias. I made three(+1 for a suggestion change). That it was one later on, was mostly because it was being argued it wasn't accurate by Seriously Bored(who saw the error of her logical ways ). For any more graphs on specific resists you're very very welcome to make your own. I have posted the spreadsheet I made for it. It's pretty straightforward to use. Surely you read the post you quoted in detail. that is not the main point. Point is even if you make possible to other do their own graphs, this forum is a political tool. Presenting only 1 view repeatedly in an image like that is a classical way of biasing the opinion of less mentally focused readers. Not saying that that is what YOU wanted, just saying that this should be avoided as long as possible. OTherwise soon we can manipulate people minds so they start believing tempest is the best ship in game. You're not wrong, but I assume most that actually spend time on these here forums are smarter then to be easily caught by that. Putting in bias was never my intent fwiw. Anywho, it's argued out. Originally by: AstroPhobic The graphs were unsurprising IMO. I'm assuming they don't account for hit quality in falloff, so even against armor ACs even out with everything somewhere closer to 12km. Outside of that, megapulse are superior. Inside (your graph doesn't include drones), the mega is a better choice. That's with omni tanks, favorable to the damage type of ACs... I don't see anything out of order except the omission of hit quality and drones. Actually the graph does include hit quality, the derived formula that is in a thread on SHC. But yes, missiles and drones aren't included... uh... yet(maybe?) Yes, EM advantage of lasers is rather huge nowadays. Not as weak as they used to be on armor but still kept their huge advantage against shield. an advantage that's becoming more prominent lately in tactics used nowadays, such as rapid HAC gangs.

Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.17 00:27:00 - [621] Well smart people try to fill their resists on larger ships. Also as i said, with rigs 2.0 incoming you cannot balance game on the tough that people will always use EANM + DC as only tank option in game. Also there are tons of ships where the standard armor distribution is not valid. Like t2 ships and capital ships (that quite usually fit hardeners). That also must be sided to fact that ALL armor tankers also have a healthy shield buffer tank. Try using fusion on your AC against a megatron and mega will kill you before his shields are depleted. THat is why I say looking at damage graphs agaisnt an sepcific resit scenario is something to be analysed with grain of salt.
AstroPhobic Divine Retribution	Posted - 2009.08.17 00:34:00 - [622] Interesting. Still not super surprising. The thing though is, ACs have this advantage* over the armor portion of armor tanked ships (which depending on how buffered they are, may be anywhere from 50%-95% of the ship's total EHP) but not the shield or hull portion. And it's only t1 omni tanks. It ignores drones too. It ignores drone damage type, too. I typically fit explosive drones on my amarr boats to make up for the lack of tracking on pulse/and to splash expl damage in there, and I typically fit thermal drones on my minnie boats to splash thermal damage in and make up for the poor damage of autos. *Looking at the graph, the advantage is teeny tiny if existent. It's not an advantage on t2 amarr tanks, it's not better than lasers on cald/gal t2. It would be an advantage on t2 minnie armor tanks, except there aren't any (-wolf). It's fairly questionable on any t2 ship, due to the commonplace of resistance plugging. I mean, who knows. I'm not calling these graphs poor, they're exactly what they are. But I have to agree, the idiocy level of these forums peaks fairly high and highlighting one specific graph you'll have 20 of the next NightmareXs down our throats before we can say "sisi" I'd like to see ACs being the clear choice to use against t1 omni armor tanks. EMP/fusion damage type switch and a small damage boost would go a long way. An extra helping of falloff on ACs, too. I'm still open to fixes on the tempest (any of the fixes honestly... 7/6/6, or increase in agility/reserve drones, or the bonus boosting), and artillery is a puzzle.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.08.17 15:00:00 - [623] One of the bad sides of an issue being so evident and undeniable as the tempest/projectiles issue is that the discussions are not very much discussions. Therefore the threads tend to not be as long and overhelming as they shoudl be to call CCP attention.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.08.18 10:14:00 - [624] Originally by: Seishi Maru One of the bad sides of an issue being so evident and undeniable as the tempest/projectiles issue is that the discussions are not very much discussions. Therefore the threads tend to not be as long and overhelming as they shoudl be to call CCP attention. It doesn't change the fact that Minmatar BS's as a group need some serious help. Or did I mean to say /bump
Guygeboe	Posted - 2009.08.18 10:17:00 - [625] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Seishi Maru One of the bad sides of an issue being so evident and undeniable as the tempest/projectiles issue is that the discussions are not very much discussions. Therefore the threads tend to not be as long and overhelming as they shoudl be to call CCP attention. It doesn't change the fact that Minmatar BS's as a group need some serious help. Or did I mean to say /bump Noez, but he has a point :)
Ronin Reborn Wrath of Fenris	Posted - 2009.08.19 03:45:00 - [626] Bump for great justice.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.08.19 07:41:00 - [627] save the tempest!
Aranis Nax Minmatar Seraphim Blades	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:00:00 - [628] "won't someone think of the children!" can we has balance devblog plox?
Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:14:00 - [629] Edited by: Gneeznow on 19/08/2009 11:14:27 I 0wn just fine in a tempest, you're all doing it wrong clearly edit: and I do that with minmatar bs 4 :smug:
Aranis Nax Minmatar Seraphim Blades	Posted - 2009.08.19 11:24:00 - [630] Originally by: Gneeznow Edited by: Gneeznow on 19/08/2009 11:14:27 I 0wn just fine in a tempest, you're all doing it wrong clearly edit: and I do that with minmatar bs 4 :smug: ah the guy that is (in)famous for using lasers on various ships(ferox,...) not expected to use lasers. I didn't realize cat pics would summon you, oh nameless one ... named gneeznow PS. I have to watch number 10(again?), seeing as you're using tempests in that.



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