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Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:39:00 - [61] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Sophie Daigneau At this point, the best thing to do would be to close up shop and return everyone's money as a fraction of what they invested. There's no telling how long it could take for you to restore ebank to being fully liquid, especially in light of these revelations of gross incompetence by EBANK leadership. And how would we decide who lost out? Easy, you liquidate all assets, then distribute the isk that's remaining to depositors as a percentage of what they are owed. If you wind up with 1T worth of isk and owe depositors 2T, then each person gets half of what they're owed. Its not ideal, but its probably the best course of action for the depositors at this time to preserve as much of their money as possible.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Athre why did you decide this MOST UNFORTUNATE choice to freeze the accounts and interests? You dug your own grave needlessy. If all you needed were 36-40B a month, it's not impossible to make them, some guys make 25B in solo, you should have made a subsidiary IPO and then slowly recovered back to "black". The freeze will not be condoned nor forgotten, not when you have another recent scandal still hanging around. Okay, thanks for that. You should start a blog so everyone can see your mindless rambling. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:41:00 - [63] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Julian Koll The 337,5b in Titan BPOs suggest you own 5 BPOs, however the 15b monthly income suggests you only hold 4. That's a conservative estimate, and based on recent auctions and sales it may become an accurate one. Originally by: Julian Koll Another thing that bugs me are your losses to default being 430b in total, but i see no collateral showing up in the balance sheet, just a mere 30ish b of 'other assets' It bugs me too, there was little documentation of collateral. We have some to sell, which is included in the 31b asset valuation; but most of the defaults were not collateralised. thanks for the answer. i think one edit was to lat: One more thing, on Profits & Loss you generate interest from ~100b in Loans while stating 257b in loans on the asset page and the investments in associates dont match on those two pages
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:41:00 - [64] anyone up for winding caverns? we use a dkp system, we also have guild bank and tabard.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:41:00 - [65] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Easy, you liquidate all assets, then distribute the isk that's remaining to depositors as a percentage of what they are owed. If you wind up with 1T worth of isk and owe depositors 2T, then each person gets half of what they're owed. Its not ideal, but its probably the best course of action for the depositors at this time to preserve as much of their money as possible. And how long do you think that liquidation would take? Have a look at our financials and let me know. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:44:00 - [66] Originally by: Julian Koll One more thing, on Profits & Loss you generate interest from ~100b in Loans while stating 257b in loans on the asset page Yup, was wondering who would spot that. The 157b extra on the balance sheet is in toxic loans that need to be written off if not recoverable. We're in the middle of that process. Originally by: Julian Koll and the investments in associates dont match on those two pages That's just a typo, it should be 72b on both. Thanks, will fix that. This is currently a manually updated figure until our internal consolidation is complete. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Ray McCormack Okay, thanks for that. You should start a blog so everyone can see your mindless rambling. While I am rambling. best quote ever I am too elite, I LAUGH AT AUDITS Mass of hipocrites, getting all golden plate and beyond any control by repeated intercourses with an institution, become oh so elite and now month after month everyone can see the mass of incompetency, dishonesty, thievery that engulfed every step. And now I am rambling? At least I can go sleep and watch myself at the mirror without feeling to spit myself in the face. Nothing personal with you Ray. You just happen to arrive last, where the show has been consumed already, and take the debris home. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:47:00 - [68] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Julian Koll One more thing, on Profits & Loss you generate interest from ~100b in Loans while stating 257b in loans on the asset page Yup, was wondering who would spot that. The 157b extra on the balance sheet is in toxic loans that need to be written off if not recoverable. We're in the middle of that process. I know all of this is WIP but, those 157b arnt collateralized aswell, are they?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:49:00 - [69] The only problem is you're attacking the people that aren't responsible for the problem, but rather the ones trying to fix the problem. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Julian Koll I know all of this is WIP but, those 157b arnt collateralized aswell, are they? That would be too good to be true. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Tal Foya Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:50:00 - [71] Quote: òLoan defaults will be revealed, and ruthlessly pursued. You should be paying for a large alliance or merc alliance to get that money back... but are you just shaking your fist at them? Greedy people will be greedy. How many people in EVEBANK have actual investing/banking experience? How many have accounting degrees?
Tal Foya Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:52:00 - [72] Originally by: Ray McCormack The only problem is you're attacking the people that aren't responsible for the problem, but rather the ones trying to fix the problem. Even without the scandal, you should be more profitable than just 250 billion isk.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:53:00 - [73] Originally by: Tal Foya You should be paying for a large alliance or merc alliance to get that money back... but are you just shaking your fist at them? Yes, we should be, shouldn't we. Originally by: Tal Foya How many people in EVEBANK have actual investing/banking experience? How many have accounting degrees? Who cares? When I hire a merc corp I don't ask for their rl murdering qualifications. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:57:00 - [74] I might not get this right....nor do I have isk invested in EBANK personally or corperation isk. However if it was me having said 10b in ure bank, I would be pretty ****ed right now. basicly you give ppl no chooice, it looks like for me basicly like a kidnapping of ppls isk. You could in my eyes made a much bether PR solution. a example: give ppl the chance to vote...between getting % of their investment back right away....said A) 60-70% of their isk back or b) do as u did. However , u basicly just said "this is how we do it, we simply gonna freeze all your accounts..and not give out intrests" Simply by giving ppl the chooise u would have gotten out much bether. most ppl would prob choose B anyways. and if they didnt , it shows how litle fait they got in u. Either chase u would have looked bether in my eyes
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:57:00 - [75] Can isk currently in EBANK be transfered to other accounts within EBANK. For example if I would like to transfer funds deposited last week to an alt today, is that possible? I understand I would still not be able to withdraw the funds until this gets worked out but I'm wondering how frozen the isk is.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:58:00 - [76] Quote: The only problem is you're attacking the people that aren't responsible for the problem, but rather the ones trying to fix the problem. Quoting myself: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1161131&page=1#20 Quote: Too bad, their rep will go down the crapper the only day the bank played transparent and honest. So I am not attacking you or the "new guys". But why could I be mad at you, if I had any interest in the bank? Because everyone in SCC-lounge right now are discussing how "so I lost my money". "So I got my money to buy my freigther frozen indefinitely"... Politically speaking, this announcement is so bad I don't know where to begin to explain it. You are neutering your chances, WHY. You just killed the VERY reason why people put their hard earned money in risible low interest accounts: to go sleep feeling their money is safe. Yes it's EvE blah blah but the only reason why they put their spare money in EBANK is because you were rock solid. By repeatedly violating this concept even without the need (there are alternate ways as I explained above) you are violating the prestige the bank slowly built upon years. How can I be the only one (along with those ATM posting in game) who can easily see this? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:04:00 - [77] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha How can I be the only one (along with those ATM posting in game) who can easily see this? Oh my, you must be an exceptional genius, please can I be like you? You've made whatever point you were trying to (I certainly can't see), go back to playing auditor now. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:04:00 - [78] Some questions Ray Will customers still be allowed to transfer isk between accounts, so that we can still at least conduct business of sorts? Have you thought about not turning on the switch per see of withdrawals, but instead placing a minimum cap on all accounts once some form of liquidity is achieved so as to avoid complete and total blow out? Have you thought about, or at least talked with a possible lender of last resort?
Bernie Ebbers	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:04:00 - [79] Have you considered the very likely possibility that you have many billions of ISK in zombie accounts that will not be withdrawn ever? If anything that's like extra capitol that could almost be considered equity.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:05:00 - [80] Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:06:00 - [81] Originally by: Miss CutieTrader I might not get this right....nor do I have isk invested in EBANK personally or corperation isk. However if it was me having said 10b in ure bank, I would be pretty ****ed right now. basicly you give ppl no chooice, it looks like for me basicly like a kidnapping of ppls isk. You could in my eyes made a much bether PR solution. a example: give ppl the chance to vote...between getting % of their investment back right away....said A) 60-70% of their isk back or b) do as u did. However , u basicly just said "this is how we do it, we simply gonna freeze all your accounts..and not give out intrests" Simply by giving ppl the chooise u would have gotten out much bether. most ppl would prob choose B anyways. and if they didnt , it shows how litle fait they got in u. Either chase u would have looked bether in my eyes We did think of other options, and we're still open to new ideas. But see my sums above. This isn't such a bad option. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:07:00 - [82] Originally by: Ray McCormack Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. But u aint giving ppl the chooise ....ure basicly pushing down the solution down their troath.... its here the issue lays...not the isk itself, in my eyes.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:08:00 - [83] Originally by: Fleshbot Can isk currently in EBANK be transfered to other accounts within EBANK. For example if I would like to transfer funds deposited last week to an alt today, is that possible? I understand I would still not be able to withdraw the funds until this gets worked out but I'm wondering how frozen the isk is. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Will customers still be allowed to transfer isk between accounts, so that we can still at least conduct business of sorts? Try, let me know if it doesn't work. Originally by: Fleshbot Have you thought about not turning on the switch per see of withdrawals, but instead placing a minimum cap on all accounts once some form of liquidity is achieved so as to avoid complete and total blow out? Can you explain this further, not sure what you mean? Originally by: Fleshbot Have you thought about, or at least talked with a possible lender of last resort? No, the bank won't be allowed to sink further into debt, either public or private. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:08:00 - [84] Originally by: Ray McCormack Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. That's a good point. I think the main complaint, from what I've read, is ebank is basically saying this offer is compulsory. Most people can make 5% per month with little effort, and a year in eve is a very long time.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha How can I be the only one (along with those ATM posting in game) who can easily see this? Oh my, you must be an exceptional genius, please can I be like you? You've made whatever point you were trying to (I certainly can't see), go back to playing auditor now. Keep up with the detached-superiority irony, it's me who I need it now. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:10:00 - [86] Originally by: Miss CutieTrader But u aint giving ppl the chooise ....ure basicly pushing down the solution down their troath.... its here the issue lays...not the isk itself, in my eyes. What other solution must we offer? Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:10:00 - [87] I'll admit, I'm not a real EBank follower, and I mostly seem top hear news about you when something bad happens. Still, reading this, I have just one question - WTF? Looking at the financials, a few things stand out. One, your salaries expense, more than 75B, is really high - all I can remember hearing about EBank salaries was that they were pretty token, maybe a hundred mil a month at the high end. Were those numbers a misunderstanding on my part, lies, or are they legit and you just have a huge salaried workforce? Second, even ignoring the 275 bil default, you have another 100+B of defaults on there. Just how many collateral-free loans did you give out, and why? Did you at least charge a pretty savage risk premium for them? Why did you continue making inherently risky low/no collateral loans for such a long time(at least a year and a half, from the looks of it) after the defaults started rolling in? And third, that loss statement cannot possibly be complete. 1221 B in losses, and 1174 B of negative equity, implies a lifetime gross revenue of 47 billion. Those titan BPCs alone should have made you more than that in the last few months. Can you put together a calculation of lifetime revenues, figure out what the uncounted losses would have to amount to? Also, a broader question. Did the people running EBank see regular financial statements? If so, were they incomplete, screwed-up, or intentionally falsified? Is there any way to tell when these errors crept into your statements, and when your understanding of your financial position became this utterly wrong? Because this information makes it look like you either had a pretty epic fraudster or fool as an accountant, or your financial data was hilariously incomplete from the beginning.
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:11:00 - [88] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Miss CutieTrader I might not get this right....nor do I have isk invested in EBANK personally or corperation isk. However if it was me having said 10b in ure bank, I would be pretty ****ed right now. basicly you give ppl no chooice, it looks like for me basicly like a kidnapping of ppls isk. You could in my eyes made a much bether PR solution. a example: give ppl the chance to vote...between getting % of their investment back right away....said A) 60-70% of their isk back or b) do as u did. However , u basicly just said "this is how we do it, we simply gonna freeze all your accounts..and not give out intrests" Simply by giving ppl the chooise u would have gotten out much bether. most ppl would prob choose B anyways. and if they didnt , it shows how litle fait they got in u. Either chase u would have looked bether in my eyes We did think of other options, and we're still open to new ideas. But see my sums above. This isn't such a bad option. rgr, then I see that ure thoughts is prob intended as good...so I ofc hope it works out good, and it seems like u thought of it so..Im no gonna put more salt into rue wounds. GL.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:13:00 - [89] Originally by: Mephistocles That's a good point. I think the main complaint, from what I've read, is ebank is basically saying this offer is compulsory. Most people can make 5% per month with little effort, and a year in eve is a very long time. We'll look at opening this possibility up, but it won't happen until the Board agrees the deficit calculation is accurate. That means the loan audit needs to be complete, defaulted collateral liquidated and several other requirements. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:13:00 - [90] I'm willing to maintain my trust in EBANK for now. Transparency is definitely something I demand, though. I'd like to know what's being done to make sure I get my money back. I imagine I'll still be playing Eve a year from now, and I'd like to be able to get that money back eventually, at least. Its nothing huge in the long run, I can make it back. But I agree with others here in that the thing that made EBANK stand apart was the trust people had in it. That trust is gone. There were no announcements (that I saw) to indicate that you had discovered problems and were taking steps to counter them... simply one moment everything was fine, and the next moment my account is frozen. I understand why you're doing what you're doing. I don't like it, but I understand it. So, for now, I will simply wait. I am, however, disappointed. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?

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