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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.27 19:29:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Dranakolys Edited by: Dranakolys on 27/08/2009 18:10:17
Originally by: Dzil
Suffer what consequences? Did I miss where the customers of ebank have some recourse they are just avoiding leveraging out of the kindness of their hearts? I see one random alt threatening them with some "information", which due to the need to make public posts about it is likely little more than rubbish.
Did you mean their effective ability to launch their own public offerings/bonds? I'm quite sure with their hands full with ebank, you'll see none anytime soon, at least not on any character you can tie to the directors here.
Perhaps you'll hire a merc fleet to station camp their jita alts?
If you thought before you posted you would have realised that he is referring to consequences as far as they exist in MD (this needs a "duh"), as limited as they are. One part would be resigning/being fired from their positions. The other is the damage to their reputation and standing, which might actually matter to some of them (haha -- assuming their hands weren't in the jar all along).
Well go ahead member of MD: fire the ebank employees. Wait, you can't: it's a private corp. Customers can whine, petition, and circle jerk outside the ebank virtual HQ if they want, but it won't change a thing. To be honest its up to Ray to decide whether any former BoD members can help him rebuild it, or detract from ebank with their history. There's also the consideration that without solid financial history, he's probably entire reliant on their word for what they currently hold in ebank funds. Firing them could encourage them to fudge those numbers.
As for damage to their reputation and standing, I don't think former ebank employees will walk away untarnished from this. Again, whatever their good intentions, at this point in time ebank has lost over a trillion isk belonging to its investors, and as was said every BoD member is in part accountable for that. But that will only come into play if they actually attempt to leverage their reputations in the future. I am somewhat surprised that we haven't seen some of the major figures from Ebank past and present come here to make a public apology for the damage this caused to ebank's customers.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.27 19:30:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan?
Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral.
Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back.
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Makhar
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Posted - 2009.08.27 19:43:00 -
[393]
Pretty big blow for the banking industry. For a bank in eve to work it has to rely on trust. I predict the end of banks within eve. I know that if withdrawals are ever turned back on I will be taking out what money I have in and then not using the service again. I imagine the same is true for a lot of others also.
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Anomandaris Draginpurake
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.27 19:51:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Anomandaris Draginpurake on 27/08/2009 19:51:54 Not that my endorsement really means much, but freezing the investors assets was the only way to prevent a run on the bank once the truth about it's finances came to light. As far as not telling anyone and hoping nothing else starts a run goes, that was always going to be impossible when Ray started running EBank with the transparency it should always have had.
Good luck with the cleanup Ray!
Edit - Stupid sig :(
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist The thingamagigger in the whatchamadooger broke and then the zippaerater that coupled with the Hydroganeation whoswer that makes it all work is on the firtz. Sorry I can't be mor |
Inignort Err
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Posted - 2009.08.27 20:13:00 -
[395]
For lunch today I had a patty melt from the deli downstairs and a side of the EBank 07-08 annual report. It was a interesting read; particularly in light of what is happening now. All the signs pointed to an operation ripe for theft but I have the benefit of hindsight. So, I won't dwell on that.
What I will dwell on though is the need for what may or may not be left of the board to be good corporate citizens and end this debacle by returning whatever they have left to those who have money on deposit promptly. The longer they freeze accounts, the greater the distrust becomes and the more it looks like a giant Ponzi scheme unwinding.
It's a bankrupt business. Not a bank with insurance and any regulation. It is simply a business that cannot pay people it owes money to and needs to be liquidated as such.
The reason I mention the need for being a good corporate citizen is because there are many people like myself who are just getting to the stage in our own businesses where we are going to see out investment oppotunities and in some cases, loans. The more these debacles look like fraud (real or not) the harder it will be for anyone to find investors or loans.
That is my selfish take on it. I feel for the people who remained loyal to EBank after the events of a few months ago and am hopeful that they will get their money back and not become completely turned off to the idea of investments and the benefits of financial institutions in EVE.
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi
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Posted - 2009.08.27 20:29:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Dzil
Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back.
Is there incentive? Or did the collateral disappear with the trillions of isk
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Saehta
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi
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Posted - 2009.08.27 20:31:00 -
[397]
Not letting me edit
This bank needs to liquidate. Yes I know that it will take months to do so
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.27 20:32:00 -
[398]
Originally by: Saehta
Originally by: Dzil
Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back.
Is there incentive? Or did the collateral disappear with the trillions of isk
Ding Ding Ding
I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount.
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Sahn
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Posted - 2009.08.27 20:46:00 -
[399]
Ray, if you need any assitance, let me know.
As a RL accountant and business minded individual I may be able to assist. As an EBANK customer, I'd like to resolve this as quickly as possible.
Again, I don't know much about EBANK because I am outside looking in, but to generate almost 1 trillion isk in a year is going to need all the help you can get.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Squirrel Team
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Posted - 2009.08.27 20:51:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Saehta
Originally by: Dzil
Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back.
Is there incentive? Or did the collateral disappear with the trillions of isk
If someone DOES pay off their loan, is there ANY assurance that the collateral will be returned anyway?
KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
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Xetal Maelstrom
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Posted - 2009.08.27 20:52:00 -
[401]
Quote: I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount.
Yeah, that was my point.
According to Ray M. (Spreadsheet linked in post#2) they have 257 billion ISK out in loans right now.
That is, right around 1/3 of their total assets are loans to people who now have every reason to resist repaying them.
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Dzil
Caldari Halo Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.27 21:38:00 -
[402]
Is it at all possible, that some of those 2 trillion in deposits never actually happened? That someone found a way to monkey with the SQL database, but unlike dbank it went undiscovered?
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Cearain
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Posted - 2009.08.27 22:08:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan?
Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral.
The fact that ebank was mismanaged in no way decreases ones obligation to pay back the loan. Here we are talking about a moral obligation to pay back the loan. Eve doesn't have a mechanism to force the repayment. However, it didn't have a mechanism to force the repayment before this sh___ hit the fan either. So the moral obligation is still there just as much as it was before.
I hope E-bank publishes all the people who defaulted on their loans so others can take this into account when dealing with that person and corporations they are involved with.
Of course, if ebank won't give them back the full collateral there is no moral obligation to repay.
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Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.27 22:15:00 -
[404]
Edited by: Kalrand on 27/08/2009 22:15:43
Originally by: Cearain
Of course, if ebank won't give them back the full collateral there is no moral obligation to repay.
Someone should start testing this.
Edit: added below
Was there ever a full accounting of the collateral after Ricdic flew off into the night?
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Ava Santiago
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.27 23:23:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Varo Jan So, let me get this right...
Ebank never had basic controls. Ebank never had simple, complete, regular financial statements. Ricdic does a runner, but Ebank still doesn¦t know for sure how much he embezzled. Neither the past Chairman, nor the directors admitted to gross negligence or offered to resign. Ebank is technically insolvent. The size of the deficit is still unknown. The bank has defaulted by not permitting withdrawals. Interest accruals are suspended. The bank hopes to restart normal operations in a year or so.
Is that about it?
Well, there is a very simple solution. It¦s based on the principle of "The buck stops here."
Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability.
That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others.
Not very palatable, directors, is it? Well, tough. Time to pay the piper.
And this is why the "Secondary Market" is a scam. Without enforceable contracts backed up by regulatory government bodies libertarian ideas fail.
Very few contracts in Eve are enforced/enforcable by Regulartory Government bodies. The reason the game functions at all is the buy and sell interface.
But, it's fun watching everyone in this forum say "it's different this time" - and what's amazing is that sometimes it is different. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts. |
Alexian Terra
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Posted - 2009.08.27 23:49:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Kalrand Ding Ding Ding
I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount.
Most people that I know of are attempting to do this. I know I am. I'd rather pay some 30M than get back the collateral that I had lying around and would never use.
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Varo Jan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.08.28 00:12:00 -
[407]
Ebank Official: We have the situation under control. Ebank will rise from the ashes in a year or five and voom through the ether once again.
Irate Ebank customer: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this bank wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! It's bleeding demised! It¦s passed on! This bank is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It¦s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! Its metabolic processes are now 'istory! It¦s kicked the bucket, shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleeding choir invisibile!!
THIS IS AN EX-BANK!!
~ Adapted from Monty Python û although Fawlty Towers would be more appropriate for this farce.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.08.28 01:01:00 -
[408]
PFT
a year or so?
basicaly the buisness plan consists of "were going to outlast the average sub length(7 months) while we skill up alts and then try to disapear and pocket every dime we can."
afer all riping people off is allowed in the game, frankly you might as well fisnish what he started.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Cearain
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Posted - 2009.08.28 01:24:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Alexian Terra
Originally by: Kalrand Ding Ding Ding
I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount.
Most people that I know of are attempting to do this. I know I am. I'd rather pay some 30M than get back the collateral that I had lying around and would never use.
I think your last sentence is unlcear. But the reputable thing to do would be to offer to pay back minus the difference ebank can not return. (assuming that difference can be agreed on)
However ebank must certainly return peoples collateral in order to collect on their loans. If I needed to pay back the last 30 mil on a 200 mil note and ebank was holding on to 100mil item of collateral from me, I certainly would not give them the 30 mil unless I knew they would give back the 100 mil item. They would be the ones who would be reneging on the agreement. It would be the same as if I signed an agreement to buy a house and then after both parties signed the agreement the guy said ôyou give me the money but IÆm not going to give you the house.ö Do I need to give him the money?
Ebank needs to make sure they give people back their collateral so that they can collect on their debts. Suffice it to say that taking collateral outside of the agreement is like flat out theft. Its not really theirs to keep. Collateral is something held in trust to ensure the payment of the loan. If they keep it even though the loan is paid it is little different than theft.
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Xanna Ryan
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Posted - 2009.08.28 02:39:00 -
[410]
Edited by: Xanna Ryan on 28/08/2009 02:39:42 So basically all the people stupid enough to let you manage their money now can't pull it out and you say this can only be resolved by putting more money in? On top of that you offer no benefit to having isk in the bank in the first place now.
You're saying withdraws are not being accepted. That's a great way to regain the trust of your customers. Might as well fold and cash out like Riddic did.
Edit: is there anyway you can buy short on a corporation?
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SamtheDog
EVIL ALTS Talon Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.28 02:46:00 -
[411]
Absolutely disgusting. There is a reason we have an in game wallet and that is to protect YOUR assets! So some people are approached and offered interest on their isk. Now exactly HOW this profit will be made is of course unclear. That's because you can't create interest in eve, you can only make more isk through work. Seeing the size of the salaries you paid yourself, good luck with paying interest.
Even better, some guy rips you off..you shrug it off and say 'all accounts are now frozen'. Gee..thanks for that! You will NEVER have the trust of the community by doing that. Why throw good money after money that's essentially been stolen? Because you said so? I feel so much better now that I can trust you with my isk!
The bank is obviously a scam. The time it takes to create a webpage and this whole setup is far less than what it would take you to actually 'make' it on your own. So well played to those who were stupid enough to put isk in an eve bank since 100% of the banks in eve have been scams or are scams that have not been discovered yet.
IF you want to prove any credibility, pay back the 40% to the account holders, stfu and move on. Otherwise, freezing accounts and making people give more money for you to steal while it's clear you can't find a way to make over isk is just insulting.
On a persona note..I own over 100bn..and I never needed a bank to manage my money. Only a fool pays someone to make money for them.
Sam "Never underestimate greed or stupidity...you can always see it emerge in the end" |
Kalrand
Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.08.28 03:06:00 -
[412]
Make the bank software open source.
So then I can open a Goonbank without having to do much but manage loans and assets....
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glas mir
Reaction Scientific
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Posted - 2009.08.28 04:11:00 -
[413]
what is Ray's motivation to stay in this the long term. He was given the keys to the house, but the house was on fire on the inside.
I do not have much faith in this phoenix.
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 05:19:00 -
[414]
Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531
1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?
1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 05:21:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Who are those "board members"? Have they been destituted?
All of them active at the time of the loans. No.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha what's a timeframe to know who robbed your bank?
When we're ready to release the list.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 05:26:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Betty Rhage Either contact me in game within 24 hours and give me back all of my initial principle, or I start talking about things I should not.
24 hours will pass while I'm at work, I won't be able to login and talk to you. Please can I have an extension on the deadline? I'm really scared about you revealing what you know and ruining the bank (even more).
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Alex555
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Posted - 2009.08.28 06:07:00 -
[417]
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan?
Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral.
True.
I cant imagine how ebank BoD will ever return money they have lended. Thus ever repay their customers
No f*cking idea.
It is a vicious circle.
Which means that account frozen is quite a permanent thing a this moment.
If I am mistaken I would like to hear something new about mechanism of loan collection in Eve-world
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testirania
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Posted - 2009.08.28 06:21:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531
1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)?
1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals.
So you let the BOD take out money while the costumers, whom they were supposed to work for arent allowed to get theirs ? Isnt this "friends taking care of friends" ? And if the BOD all were commited to making this work out, then shouldnt they have proven so by leaving their ISK in the bank instead of this insider trading kind of action ?
This seems more and more to be a case of the BOD taking care of themself first instead of the customers as YOU! have put forth that is your interest.
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.08.28 06:46:00 -
[419]
Originally by: testirania So you let the BOD take out money while the costumers, whom they were supposed to work for arent allowed to get theirs ? Isnt this "friends taking care of friends" ? And if the BOD all were commited to making this work out, then shouldnt they have proven so by leaving their ISK in the bank instead of this insider trading kind of action ?
This seems more and more to be a case of the BOD taking care of themself first instead of the customers as YOU! have put forth that is your interest.
Possibly.
When the liquidity crisis became apparent several staff and directors deposited ISK into their sweep account to help us out. I allowed them to withdraw that ISK; some did, others didn't.
Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah |
Kara Mitsui
The New Era Huzzah Federation
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Posted - 2009.08.28 07:11:00 -
[420]
Wow, I've just returned to the game after several months off, and I find this.
Funny, the last time I was playing properly was around the time when one of the eBank directors quit, due to a lot of accusations about RicDic not following rules, and the directors letting him do whatever he wanted. This is when he was kicking off some project with Proton Power and it became clear that eBank had put a significant % of it's assets in this one venture.
I can't remember who it was that resigned, but there was a lot of damage control done by Hexx and LaVista in that thread, and the one who resigned was pretty badly spoken about.
Aaaaaand..... now it turns out it was all true. Good God. I would have to say that eBank was without question the most stable and respected banking voice in the game, and yet now we learn that not only did it *end* badly, the bank wasn't really properly set up in the first place. Amazing.
I've read a lot of comments from people that amount to 'told you so', as if this proves that you'd have to be mad to think that you could ever have a proper bank in Eve. I don't think there's any need for that tone of voice, especially directed at the poor suckers who are trying to clean up the mess.
But it does highlight the fact that CCP themselves are really the only ones who can create an environment where banking can be done properly in this game. What I mean is add features that provide both the transparency, security, and auditability needed to have a proper banking system.
CCP have spent a lot of time over the years boasting of the economic system in this game. They have made good PR from the fact that there are 'real' banks where players have invested a great deal of time and effort into solving the problems presented by the complete lack of supporting functionality. It's about damn time they put some freaking effort in themselves and added the features that are needed so banks can exist and investors can have some degree of security.
However, I would be surprised if CCP ever did this, more to their shame. It would only be a minor effort on their part, compared to other development projects. I am sure the players in this forum could put together a list of half a dozen features that could allow a banking system to work, without making things so safe that you can never be scammed.
And until they implement these things, you just aren't going to be able to have proper banks in Eve.
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