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Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:22:00 - [1] Statement from the Board Account Freeze It is with deep regret that we inform you of our decision to suspend certain banking activities with immediate effect. As of now both withdrawals and interest are frozen until further notice. This decision has not come lightly, we have critically analysed all aspects of the business and decided it is in the best interest of our customers and the long-term sustainability of the bank that these actions be taken. Mismanagement In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP. He was also responsible, along with board members, for over-extending credit to a long standing loan customer. This loan, for an overall amount of 275b, was soon defaulted û leaving the bank with little recourse to recover the funds. A 525b ISK loss should have been easy for a bank with 2 trillion in deposits and a year and a half of profit generation behind it; but what wasnÆt clear was the extent to which RicdicÆs mismanagement had harmed the bank. Without proper management reporting it was also impossible for the Board to identify and resolve the worsening crisis, although we accept the fact this situation should never have been allowed to continue unchecked for as long as it did. Deficit With the recent establishment of maintainable financial statements the depth of the situation has started revealing itself. At this point in time EBANK is 1.2t ISK in deficit, which continues to increase by an estimated 12b ISK per month. This is an unacceptable situation, and without drastic action being taken there would be little chance of recovery. Drastic Action òWithdrawals are frozen, with the exception of deposits that were made after this announcement. òAccount interest has also been stopped, with the exception of loan interest. òLoan defaults will be revealed, and ruthlessly pursued. òThe Board will be returned to its full complement of 9 Directors. Interest and Withdrawal Switch Interest will be turned back on when two conditions are met: 1.Interest from non-intensive activities sustainably matches or exceeds the monthly interest expenses. a.Profit generation from sustainable, low maintenance operations needs to exceed 36b ISK. 2.The bank achieves an equity status not less than 85% of its liabilities. a.Available capital must exceed 1.7t ISK. It currently stands at 0.8t. Interest will be switched off again should equity fall below the 80% mark. Withdrawals will be allowed once the bank achieves a maintainable equity status of 90% (1.8t currently); they will be stopped again should that fall below 80%. Losses Losses to date have occurred as follows: 1.~250b û Ricdic Theft. 2.~380b û Loan Defaults 3.>48b û Share Losses 4.~466b û Interest Paid 5.~75b û Salaries There are possibly further losses not accounted for, such as operational losses, additional theft and reporting errors. As these are established we will report on them.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:22:00 - [2] How Did This Happen? The truth is we do not have enough information at hand to establish this, without the benefit of robust reporting we donÆt have any solid documentation to investigate. The internal forums allude to masses of wealth being generated through ventures run by Ricdic and others; however we cannot consolidate this against our current finances. WeÆre not even completely sure that he only managed to abscond with 250b; he may have gotten away with more. It is possible the bank has been running at a deficit since its inception û we have no evidence to disprove this. What is certain is that this was allowed to happen by the Board; controls were not enforced, auditing was never completed and reporting was almost non-existent. That will change. Changes Full APIs are being pulled and stored for all staff members with access to funds, and you can at any time look at our Public Financials to see exactly with whom and where your ISK is. Ventures, which for so long ran independent of the bank, are undergoing a major overhaul. They will for all intents and purposes just form another part of the bank, much as tellers and loan officers are. They will operate under the same strict standards that are being set for the bank itself. Loans will be collateralised, that change has already been enforced. Prior defaults will also be revealed and ruthlessly pursued. They will also form part of our main focus. There is a moratorium on salaries, they are still being recorded but wonÆt be paid until the bank is in a more stable condition, and definitely not before clients are able to get their ISK back. Recovery Without the burden of 36b in interest per month the bank can start down the long path to full recovery, and with further internal changes weÆll be aiming to triple our monthly profit generation within a very short timeframe. Whilst we canÆt say for certain when weÆll achieve full liquidity, our aim is to turn interest and withdrawals back on within a year. However recovering a trillion ISK is a monumental task, and we ask for your patience whilst we go about this endeavour. Our Public Financials will be updated weekly, you have but to ask should you see something lacking. The Future The bank is now in a state of consolidation, weÆll be working towards strengthening the board with both executive and non-executive directors. Reporting will become more structured and transparent; the API will be used to greater effect in order to accurately report and alert us to issues. All members are committed to this action, we draw strength from the fact we are doing the right thing. We will answer any serious questions you may have and address any concerns you raise with honesty and to the best of our ability. Yours Sincerely, The Board and Staff EBANK EBANK Public Financial Statements http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t1FCGqaDaXqV1xH1RLu1g9w&output=html EBANK Forums http://forums.eve-bank.net Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mechanogrin	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Mechanogrin on 25/08/2009 17:28:06 Cool story bro first
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Emily Spankratchet on 25/08/2009 17:32:55 I have 17 million, can I help? Srs edit: Quote: It is possible the bank has been running at a deficit since its inception û we have no evidence to disprove this. That's probably the most interesting quote for me. You did a nice job presenting the appearance of an organisation that would at least know if it was running at a defecit or not. Nice website, good organisation, but nothing going on up top? I live in the hope that the billion or so I have with EBank will be unfrozen at some stage, but it's not that important. What's more important in a way is that I hope a bank can actually work in Eve.
BarryGibb	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:31:00 - [5] So much for trying to escape RL banking issues by playing a video game.
Skyvyr Caldari House Of BlackStar Semper-Mortis	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:32:00 - [6] Wow. Well it seems there can't be a director shift without something bad coming out shortly after. I look forward to the transparent direction that the bank is heading. Good luck this year, I hope to see the goal reached! -- I often heard the Sky's the limit, sadly I'm broke fairly often.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Skyvyr Well it seems there can't be a director shift without something bad coming out shortly after. Just to be clear, LV stepped down and OZ joined us a week or so before this decision was made. We tried to buck the drama trend but to no avail. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Skyvyr Caldari House Of BlackStar Semper-Mortis	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Ray McCormack Just to be clear, LV stepped down and OZ joined us a week or so before this decision was made. We tried to buck the drama trend but to no avail. I know, I was meant that more as comedy than an actual trolling. It seems to happen elsewhere as well, a director steps down, badness ensues. -- I often heard the Sky's the limit, sadly I'm broke fairly often.
Secondskin	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Ray McCormack What is certain is that this was allowed to happen by the Board; controls were not enforced, auditing was never completed and reporting was almost non-existent. 2 trillion in assets should be accompanied by more than a few sticky-notes on monitors, especially when part of those assets goes to paying, what was it, 75 billion isk in salaries? At least crying foul late in the game and saying 'oops, we screwed up' is a perfect mirror for real-world banking. Congrats on that. Good luck re-establishing trust; halting withdrawals may prevent a run on the bank's under-capitalized finances, but holding money where its true owners cannot reach it is still tantamount to theft. Or you can call it an extended no-interest loan to the bank on the public's behalf if you like. The effect is the same. Originally by: "Ray McCormack" with further internal changes weÆll be aiming to triple our monthly profit generation That would have to be a very transparent set of internal changes. Nobody expects trade secrets to be revealed, but you can't magically triple monthly profits by simply wishing it so, and the track record of EBank to date isn't exactly stellar anymore.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:43:00 - [10] So EBank was possibly a ponzi scheme from the start? How is this possible without other members in leadership knowing? Did the former leadership know? How do you know it was Ricdic and not other members of EBank? Do you have any evidence that shows where the isk went from these other isk generating ventures and who was involved? Can EBank recover from this? Is EBank insolvent, and if so, why not simply liquidate and pay the proceeds to investors rather than dragging this out for 6 months or a year? When will remaining cash be returned to depositors?
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:46:00 - [11] reserved.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Tesal So EBank was possibly a ponzi scheme from the start? How is this possible without other members in leadership knowing? Did the former leadership know? It's amazing how people pick up on one sentence in a post and run with it. It's a possibility due to the lack of supporting evidence, however common sense would suggest unlikely. But I'm not passed ruling things out yet. The board didn't know due to the lack of reporting standards, an incomplete audit and a tendency to take Ric on his word (as most people did). Originally by: Tesal How do you know it was Ricdic and not other members of EBank? Do you have any evidence that shows where the isk went from these other isk generating ventures and who was involved? It's a definite possibility others were involved, possibly unknowingly. There just isn't any evidence to discover that. Originally by: Tesal Can EBank recover from this? Yes. Originally by: Tesal Is EBank insolvent, and if so, why not simply liquidate and pay the proceeds to investors rather than dragging this out for 6 months or a year? When will remaining cash be returned to depositors? Read the OP. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Grendell reserved. You? Hardly. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
SCORPY	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:52:00 - [14] Edited by: SCORPY on 25/08/2009 17:52:43 I think at this time assigning a new EBANK director named Bernie Madoff would be appropriate. Why not? You guys obviously are poor judges of character. I recall several people repeatedly crying wolf about Ricdic being an accident waiting to happen, now you want to freeze withdrawals while bringing in even more new directors = even more risk to exacerbate the situation. How can you not know what was lost in what way? Not know which losses were theft and by whom? I appreciate your communication and transparency, it's just not transparent enough. Whether that's really beyond your control or not is what I'm unsure of.
Sabina Rutha Gallente Over Caffeinated	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:53:00 - [15] Time for a new Ebank Banner instead of "EBANK ISK EVOLVED" I'm thinking "EBANK - YOUR ISK DESOLVED"
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Grendell reserved. You? Hardly. I'm going out for lunch ray lol, I'll write an actual post when I get back hehe.
Ambo I've Got Nothing	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Ambo on 25/08/2009 17:54:06 Well this isn't good. I'm now very glad I got twitchy and pulled my isk out of ebank earlier in the month. Props to you guys for sticking with it. I really hope you manage to sort out this mess. For me though, this is the final nail in the coffin for banks in Eve. Ebank had nicely written proceedures, a well respected group of high-level industry and market types with good intentions and about as close to a cast iron rep as you can get. Yet it still failed. From the sounds of it, you have taken the correct action, no matter how unpaletteable that may be. Good luck for the future, you're going to need it. --------------------------------------
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:54:00 - [18] :) I have faith in Ray and the Board. You are doing what needs to be done, the truth can be ugly, but atleast you arent lying :)
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:55:00 - [19] Originally by: SCORPY Why not? You guys obviously are poor judges of character and incompetent. I recall several people repeatedly crying wolf about Ricdic being an accident waiting to happen, now you want to freeze withdrawals while bringing in even more new directors = even more risk to exacerbate the situation. Look at my posting history and you'll see me at the top of that list. Originally by: SCORPY How can you not know what was lost in what way? Not know which losses were theft and by whom? I appreciate your communication and transparency, it's just not transparent enough. Whether that's really beyond your control or not is what I'm unsure of. Please take a look at the Public Financials, specifically the Loss Analysis tab where we list all potential losses and expenses. That amounts to 1.2t ISK, near enough our deficit. Which would indicate the bank has been running without turning a profit, an unlikely situation. The reason there is no actual knowledge of the losses is due to the lack of reporting. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 25/08/2009 17:59:44 I did not know you before today, but now I know you got two fat stones /respect. I think the decision to freeze withdrawals WILL make people not exactly love you. Anyway, like in other games, my predictions and statements show true: Linkage "Transparency. Transparency is what your Institution needs." Glad to see your institution finally got it, and got you to enforce it. With Hexxx this could not happen, he's too much a banker IRL to really enforce transparency. He had the strength to understand and leave and let things run their course though. He also warned people when one of the big debtors tried to gather more money (the famous "I advise against..."). Quote: Good luck re-establishing trust; halting withdrawals may prevent a run on the bank's under-capitalized finances, but holding money where its true owners cannot reach it is still tantamount to theft. Or you can call it an extended no-interest loan to the bank on the public's behalf if you like. The effect is the same. Originally by: "Ray McCormack" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- with further internal changes weÆll be aiming to triple our monthly profit generation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That would have to be a very transparent set of internal changes. Nobody expects trade secrets to be revealed, but you can't magically triple monthly profits by simply wishing it so, and the track record of EBank to date isn't exactly stellar anymore. Freezing money = people will REALLY run to withdraw the day they re-enable withdrawals and their reputation will be ashambles. Too bad, their rep will go down the crapper the only day the bank played transparent and honest. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
SCORPY	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:59:00 - [21] Edited by: SCORPY on 25/08/2009 18:01:50 Originally by: Ray McCormack Look at my posting history and you'll see me at the top of that list. I'm aware of that Ray. Sorry if it sounded personal; "you" was meant in an abstract form directed at EBANK as a whole. I appreciate all your efforts though. You're one of the few I actually trust and I hope you can help turn this around. I'm not optimistic, but I'll still hope. I just cringe every time I hear more and more people are going to be involved.
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.08.25 17:59:00 - [22] Do people need any more evidence that banks just do not work in Eve? How much money has been thrown away on this juvenile banking fascination? How many are lining up to throw their money into the new epic 1.5% bank coming out. To all the ebank hooligans who paraded their "distributed risk policy" as the paragon of eve corporate structure, who urged people to leave their money in the interest-free account in support of the bank, who viciously attacked any criticism without so much as an argument, I ask you, how are you feeling right about now? To everyone else, don't be fools. There's no such thing as banks in eve. Only "businesses" that haven't scammed yet. -L
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha He also warned people when one of the big debtors tried to gather more money (the famous "I advise against..."). As did I, I was the post just after his. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Tesal Is EBank insolvent, and if so, why not simply liquidate and pay the proceeds to investors rather than dragging this out for 6 months or a year? When will remaining cash be returned to depositors? Read the OP. A bank that routinely runs in deficit is a ponzi scheme, thats how they work. Given the time frame you outlined, and the scale of the theft, and the probability that several or many people were involved, this does not inspire confidence that continued operation will lead to success. You should liquidate. I think one can assume you are telling the truth. One can also assume that given the nature of the theft that this press release is nothing more than a cover for a theft of all remaining assets. Liquidating will at least restore trust in the current leadership of the bank. Anything short of that gives the appearance of impropriety. Its time to pull the plug.
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:02:00 - [25] Intresting. Wonder whats going to happen with the investments relying on E Bank. If you guys can pull out of this on the other end the bank should be much better as a result. Good luck. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Tesal You should liquidate. Its time to pull the plug. I believe you are short sighted. Everyone in EBANK is in it for the long haul. If we pulled the plug today we would be unable to pay back everyone's ISK. Please read the OP.
Karanth Gallente Independent Fleet Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Lecherito Do people need any more evidence that banks just do not work in Eve? How much money has been thrown away on this juvenile banking fascination? How many are lining up to throw their money into the new epic 1.5% bank coming out. To all the ebank hooligans who paraded their "distributed risk policy" as the paragon of eve corporate structure, who urged people to leave their money in the interest-free account in support of the bank, who viciously attacked any criticism without so much as an argument, I ask you, how are you feeling right about now? To everyone else, don't be fools. There's no such thing as banks in eve. Only "businesses" that haven't scammed yet. -L Only a moron gives money away to others and expects it back when there is no ingame mechanic to ensure that return. Every ISK I have in there I could afford to lose, and if I lose it all, no big deal. If I had known in advance, I really wouldn't care. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans Sorry, no. You have to go into wormholes and get farmed by the new AI NPCs like everyone else...
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Tesal stuff Thanks for your opinions, but they're not valid in this context. The deficit is genuine, we cannot pull the plug as we don't have enough ISK to pay everyone out. Once we do, we'll open withdrawals and let the public make their own decisions. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Rie Takahashi	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:07:00 - [29] Originally by: Ray McCormack As of now both withdrawals and interest are frozen until further notice. ITT Ebank scams for the rest of the money that they hold
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:07:00 - [30] Originally by: Lecherito To all the ebank hooligans who paraded their "distributed risk policy" as the paragon of eve corporate structure, who urged people to leave their money in the interest-free account in support of the bank, who viciously attacked any criticism without so much as an argument, I ask you, how are you feeling right about now? -L thats not fair, i paraded for the interest free gesture, i in no way attacked any criticism.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Rie Takahashi Originally by: Ray McCormack As of now both withdrawals and interest are frozen until further notice. ITT Ebank scams for the rest of the money that they hold We're publishing some quasi-live financials here, feel free to follow them. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
SCORPY	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:11:00 - [32] First to predict this thread will be huge.
Toast515	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:19:00 - [33] I'm out 70 something million that I will never see again. Well played "EVE Bank". Well played indeed.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Toast515 I'm out 70 something million that I will never see again. Well played "EVE Bank". Well played indeed. Don't despair, we'll get it back to you once we can get it back to everyone. Also, in some other news, our in-game channel has gone bonkers during some motd changes. We've petitioned, but it's been moved from stuck to the ui petitions queue (oh lord no). So expect it back by next downtime. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Rie Takahashi	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:22:00 - [35] Edited by: Rie Takahashi on 25/08/2009 18:22:42 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Rie Takahashi Originally by: Ray McCormack As of now both withdrawals and interest are frozen until further notice. ITT Ebank scams for the rest of the money that they hold We're publishing some quasi-live financials here, feel free to follow them. I shall indeed - and follow them closely - but, whichever way you want to dress it up semantically, IMO unilaterally declaring 'no more withdrawals' is tantamount to the same thing. Not trying to flame, just saying
Deovina	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:24:00 - [36] EBank depositors should welcome Ray as their benevolent dictator. Going for transparency is the right thing to do. Transparency on E-Banks history would be even more juicy if it's going to be possible. Tough closing down Ebank with 40% of the deposits returned might be the more reasonable approach. But that's for the customers to lobby for. I just wondered why Ray is going trough all of this hassle.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:24:00 - [37] Originally by: Rie Takahashi I shall indeed - and follow them closely - but, whichever way you want to dress it up semantically, IMO unilaterally declaring 'no more withdrawals' is tantamount to the same thing. How so? It's the only course of action that can see us recover the deficit and return everyone's ISK. Otherwise we will just collapse like a ponzi. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Zila Shadow Higgs-Dyson Collegium Amarria	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:38:00 - [38] I'll be much less annoyed by this news if it doesn't apply to withdrawals made before the announcement, though I don't have my hopes up. Have fun with my ISK.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Zila Shadow I'll be much less annoyed by this news if it doesn't apply to withdrawals made before the announcement Zila, yes your withdrawal is in before the cut off as are all unprocessed withdrawals from the 24th.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Zila Shadow I'll be much less annoyed by this news if it doesn't apply to withdrawals made before the announcement, though I don't have my hopes up. If you made the withdrawal request before the time of the announcement you will get your ISK. If you deposit ISK after the time of the announcement you are free to withdraw it. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Zila Shadow Higgs-Dyson Collegium Amarria	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:47:00 - [41] Originally by: Athre Originally by: Zila Shadow I'll be much less annoyed by this news if it doesn't apply to withdrawals made before the announcement Zila, yes your withdrawal is in before the cut off as are all unprocessed withdrawals from the 24th. Accordingly, I am much less annoyed with this announcement. Good luck EBank.
Bernie Ebbers	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:47:00 - [42] Hey guys, if you need any help from me, let me know.
Seraph Castillon Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:48:00 - [43] Rofl, am I glad I just withdrew the content of my account.
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Bernie Ebbers Hey guys, if you need any help from me, let me know. rofl
altinateee	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:52:00 - [45] 75bn Salaries? It seems like EvE bank was actually just a huge de facto ponzi scheme. No actual sources of reliable return, and most the interest payments coming out of the coffers of new investors.
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:53:00 - [46] At this point, the best thing to do would be to close up shop and return everyone's money as a fraction of what they invested. There's no telling how long it could take for you to restore ebank to being fully liquid, especially in light of these revelations of gross incompetence by EBANK leadership.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 18:54:00 - [47] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau At this point, the best thing to do would be to close up shop and return everyone's money as a fraction of what they invested. There's no telling how long it could take for you to restore ebank to being fully liquid, especially in light of these revelations of gross incompetence by EBANK leadership. And how would we decide who lost out? Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Moon Dogg Gallente The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:06:00 - [48] I have to say that I am happy to hang around with some popcorn and see what Ray and the Board of Directors can do to return the bank to profitability. I have approximately 1 billion in the bank, but I've been flying without it for a while now - so I must not need it that badly! Would this possibly be an opportunity to do an IPO on the bank and take it public? *********************************** "Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."
Trixie Rose	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Sabina Rutha Time for a new Ebank Banner instead of "EBANK ISK EVOLVED" I'm thinking "EBANK - YOUR ISK DESOLVED" Pokemon reference time! "Ebank fell asleep!" "Ebank evolved into Eblank!" "Ricdic used Absorb, it was super effective!" But on a serious note, kudos to the Ebank staff for persisting through all these issues which are inherent in running a bank, internet spaceshipz or not! Keep up the good work guys.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Moon Dogg Would this possibly be an opportunity to do an IPO on the bank and take it public? Please refer to the OP sections Recovery and The Future.
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:20:00 - [51] Edited by: Julian Koll on 25/08/2009 19:25:14 The 337,5b in Titan BPOs suggest you own 5 BPOs, however the 15b monthly income suggests you only hold 4. Just curious which number is correct. Edit: Another thing that bugs me are your losses to default being 430b in total, but i see no collateral showing up in the balance sheet, just a mere 30ish b of 'other assets'
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:23:00 - [52] Well firstly, thanks Ray for coming forward with the facts. Transparency and reporting is the best approach at all times. I don't think finger pointing will help until EBANK works through the process of what assets they ACTUALLY have and how they are controlled and what profit they make. What will have a HUGE effect on the secondary market is the freezing of withdrawals. This means that 2 Trillion ISK of customers money is frozen in the medium term, with no guarantee of getting it ALL back.
Nemi Lethal Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:25:00 - [53] The problem as I see it, as I seen it along time ago. EBank continually increased their deposit CAP into ever increasing (Expensive) amounts of money, excess money. Money the staff could not adequately work at a rate to cover the interest rate guaranteed on that money. So, what do you do? you begin to contract that work out to others, get the little people to do the work for you right? with the ever increasing amount of money that needed to be worked and as the options to work that money become less, the RISK involved with holding that money increases. Were just going to go ahead and coin this Ebank Theory = Increased Deposits and Liabilities equals a greater chance of Risk / Failure. Therefore a virtual bank can only take on enough funds that it can successfully manage / work to pay the interest guaranteed without compromising security. We need an independent third party that can dictate to future eve banking operations exactly how much funds they can take on or manage to prevent these entities from hanging themselves.
Vilgan i'Lakin	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:26:00 - [54] Unilaterally blocking all withdrawals seems pretty darn close to stealing. You should at LEAST offer a withdrawal option where people don't get the full value of their deposit back. Let people choose. Hoping you can get it back to them within a year is a bit ludicrous given the %'s people can make for themselves if they are active and not ******ed.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Julian Koll The 337,5b in Titan BPOs suggest you own 5 BPOs, however the 15b monthly income suggests you only hold 4. That's a conservative estimate, and based on recent auctions and sales it may become an accurate one. Originally by: Julian Koll Another thing that bugs me are your losses to default being 430b in total, but i see no collateral showing up in the balance sheet, just a mere 30ish b of 'other assets' It bugs me too, there was little documentation of collateral. We have some to sell, which is included in the 31b asset valuation; but most of the defaults were not collateralised. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:29:00 - [56] I would strongly consider freezing deposits also. That would make the bank look more like a ponzi scheme. Using potential new accounts to pay of old liabilties. Not saying that is what is happenning, it just looks bad. I wouldn't recommend depositing funds into EBANK if there is no guarantee of getting any funds from EBANK back.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:30:00 - [57] Athre why did you decide this MOST UNFORTUNATE choice to freeze the accounts and interests? You dug your own grave needlessy. If all you needed were 36-40B a month, it's not impossible to make them, some guys make 25B in solo, you should have made a subsidiary IPO and then slowly recovered back to "black". The freeze will not be condoned nor forgotten, not when you have another recent scandal still hanging around. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:32:00 - [58] Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin Unilaterally blocking all withdrawals seems pretty darn close to stealing. You should at LEAST offer a withdrawal option where people don't get the full value of their deposit back. Let people choose. Hoping you can get it back to them within a year is a bit ludicrous given the %'s people can make for themselves if they are active and not ******ed. This has been raised internally, and it can still be discussed. It won't happen until I'm one hundred percent certain of the true deficit so we can establish an actual percentage difference. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Bret Caliaro Fortuna inc. Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:35:00 - [59] I applaud your current actions I think they are best in the circumstances given, it's always fun trying to make up for others mistakes but I wish you all the best in this endevor. I personally think EBANK just got too big trying to invest all that isk and keep track of it I can imagine would be hell. _________________________________________________ I'm a so very lazy, so I play smart not hard.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:36:00 - [60] Originally by: cosmoray I would strongly consider freezing deposits also. People are free to withdraw any ISK they deposit after this announcement. I cannot however stop them from sending ISK to the deposit corp should they so wish. I could go around breaking everyone's fingers so they're not able to, but that might take more than a year or so and by then we'll be open for business again. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:39:00 - [61] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Sophie Daigneau At this point, the best thing to do would be to close up shop and return everyone's money as a fraction of what they invested. There's no telling how long it could take for you to restore ebank to being fully liquid, especially in light of these revelations of gross incompetence by EBANK leadership. And how would we decide who lost out? Easy, you liquidate all assets, then distribute the isk that's remaining to depositors as a percentage of what they are owed. If you wind up with 1T worth of isk and owe depositors 2T, then each person gets half of what they're owed. Its not ideal, but its probably the best course of action for the depositors at this time to preserve as much of their money as possible.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Athre why did you decide this MOST UNFORTUNATE choice to freeze the accounts and interests? You dug your own grave needlessy. If all you needed were 36-40B a month, it's not impossible to make them, some guys make 25B in solo, you should have made a subsidiary IPO and then slowly recovered back to "black". The freeze will not be condoned nor forgotten, not when you have another recent scandal still hanging around. Okay, thanks for that. You should start a blog so everyone can see your mindless rambling. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:41:00 - [63] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Julian Koll The 337,5b in Titan BPOs suggest you own 5 BPOs, however the 15b monthly income suggests you only hold 4. That's a conservative estimate, and based on recent auctions and sales it may become an accurate one. Originally by: Julian Koll Another thing that bugs me are your losses to default being 430b in total, but i see no collateral showing up in the balance sheet, just a mere 30ish b of 'other assets' It bugs me too, there was little documentation of collateral. We have some to sell, which is included in the 31b asset valuation; but most of the defaults were not collateralised. thanks for the answer. i think one edit was to lat: One more thing, on Profits & Loss you generate interest from ~100b in Loans while stating 257b in loans on the asset page and the investments in associates dont match on those two pages
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:41:00 - [64] anyone up for winding caverns? we use a dkp system, we also have guild bank and tabard.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:41:00 - [65] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Easy, you liquidate all assets, then distribute the isk that's remaining to depositors as a percentage of what they are owed. If you wind up with 1T worth of isk and owe depositors 2T, then each person gets half of what they're owed. Its not ideal, but its probably the best course of action for the depositors at this time to preserve as much of their money as possible. And how long do you think that liquidation would take? Have a look at our financials and let me know. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:44:00 - [66] Originally by: Julian Koll One more thing, on Profits & Loss you generate interest from ~100b in Loans while stating 257b in loans on the asset page Yup, was wondering who would spot that. The 157b extra on the balance sheet is in toxic loans that need to be written off if not recoverable. We're in the middle of that process. Originally by: Julian Koll and the investments in associates dont match on those two pages That's just a typo, it should be 72b on both. Thanks, will fix that. This is currently a manually updated figure until our internal consolidation is complete. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Ray McCormack Okay, thanks for that. You should start a blog so everyone can see your mindless rambling. While I am rambling. best quote ever I am too elite, I LAUGH AT AUDITS Mass of hipocrites, getting all golden plate and beyond any control by repeated intercourses with an institution, become oh so elite and now month after month everyone can see the mass of incompetency, dishonesty, thievery that engulfed every step. And now I am rambling? At least I can go sleep and watch myself at the mirror without feeling to spit myself in the face. Nothing personal with you Ray. You just happen to arrive last, where the show has been consumed already, and take the debris home. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:47:00 - [68] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Julian Koll One more thing, on Profits & Loss you generate interest from ~100b in Loans while stating 257b in loans on the asset page Yup, was wondering who would spot that. The 157b extra on the balance sheet is in toxic loans that need to be written off if not recoverable. We're in the middle of that process. I know all of this is WIP but, those 157b arnt collateralized aswell, are they?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:49:00 - [69] The only problem is you're attacking the people that aren't responsible for the problem, but rather the ones trying to fix the problem. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Julian Koll I know all of this is WIP but, those 157b arnt collateralized aswell, are they? That would be too good to be true. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Tal Foya Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:50:00 - [71] Quote: òLoan defaults will be revealed, and ruthlessly pursued. You should be paying for a large alliance or merc alliance to get that money back... but are you just shaking your fist at them? Greedy people will be greedy. How many people in EVEBANK have actual investing/banking experience? How many have accounting degrees?
Tal Foya Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:52:00 - [72] Originally by: Ray McCormack The only problem is you're attacking the people that aren't responsible for the problem, but rather the ones trying to fix the problem. Even without the scandal, you should be more profitable than just 250 billion isk.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:53:00 - [73] Originally by: Tal Foya You should be paying for a large alliance or merc alliance to get that money back... but are you just shaking your fist at them? Yes, we should be, shouldn't we. Originally by: Tal Foya How many people in EVEBANK have actual investing/banking experience? How many have accounting degrees? Who cares? When I hire a merc corp I don't ask for their rl murdering qualifications. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:57:00 - [74] I might not get this right....nor do I have isk invested in EBANK personally or corperation isk. However if it was me having said 10b in ure bank, I would be pretty ****ed right now. basicly you give ppl no chooice, it looks like for me basicly like a kidnapping of ppls isk. You could in my eyes made a much bether PR solution. a example: give ppl the chance to vote...between getting % of their investment back right away....said A) 60-70% of their isk back or b) do as u did. However , u basicly just said "this is how we do it, we simply gonna freeze all your accounts..and not give out intrests" Simply by giving ppl the chooise u would have gotten out much bether. most ppl would prob choose B anyways. and if they didnt , it shows how litle fait they got in u. Either chase u would have looked bether in my eyes
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:57:00 - [75] Can isk currently in EBANK be transfered to other accounts within EBANK. For example if I would like to transfer funds deposited last week to an alt today, is that possible? I understand I would still not be able to withdraw the funds until this gets worked out but I'm wondering how frozen the isk is.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:58:00 - [76] Quote: The only problem is you're attacking the people that aren't responsible for the problem, but rather the ones trying to fix the problem. Quoting myself: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1161131&page=1#20 Quote: Too bad, their rep will go down the crapper the only day the bank played transparent and honest. So I am not attacking you or the "new guys". But why could I be mad at you, if I had any interest in the bank? Because everyone in SCC-lounge right now are discussing how "so I lost my money". "So I got my money to buy my freigther frozen indefinitely"... Politically speaking, this announcement is so bad I don't know where to begin to explain it. You are neutering your chances, WHY. You just killed the VERY reason why people put their hard earned money in risible low interest accounts: to go sleep feeling their money is safe. Yes it's EvE blah blah but the only reason why they put their spare money in EBANK is because you were rock solid. By repeatedly violating this concept even without the need (there are alternate ways as I explained above) you are violating the prestige the bank slowly built upon years. How can I be the only one (along with those ATM posting in game) who can easily see this? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:04:00 - [77] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha How can I be the only one (along with those ATM posting in game) who can easily see this? Oh my, you must be an exceptional genius, please can I be like you? You've made whatever point you were trying to (I certainly can't see), go back to playing auditor now. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:04:00 - [78] Some questions Ray Will customers still be allowed to transfer isk between accounts, so that we can still at least conduct business of sorts? Have you thought about not turning on the switch per see of withdrawals, but instead placing a minimum cap on all accounts once some form of liquidity is achieved so as to avoid complete and total blow out? Have you thought about, or at least talked with a possible lender of last resort?
Bernie Ebbers	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:04:00 - [79] Have you considered the very likely possibility that you have many billions of ISK in zombie accounts that will not be withdrawn ever? If anything that's like extra capitol that could almost be considered equity.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:05:00 - [80] Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:06:00 - [81] Originally by: Miss CutieTrader I might not get this right....nor do I have isk invested in EBANK personally or corperation isk. However if it was me having said 10b in ure bank, I would be pretty ****ed right now. basicly you give ppl no chooice, it looks like for me basicly like a kidnapping of ppls isk. You could in my eyes made a much bether PR solution. a example: give ppl the chance to vote...between getting % of their investment back right away....said A) 60-70% of their isk back or b) do as u did. However , u basicly just said "this is how we do it, we simply gonna freeze all your accounts..and not give out intrests" Simply by giving ppl the chooise u would have gotten out much bether. most ppl would prob choose B anyways. and if they didnt , it shows how litle fait they got in u. Either chase u would have looked bether in my eyes We did think of other options, and we're still open to new ideas. But see my sums above. This isn't such a bad option. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:07:00 - [82] Originally by: Ray McCormack Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. But u aint giving ppl the chooise ....ure basicly pushing down the solution down their troath.... its here the issue lays...not the isk itself, in my eyes.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:08:00 - [83] Originally by: Fleshbot Can isk currently in EBANK be transfered to other accounts within EBANK. For example if I would like to transfer funds deposited last week to an alt today, is that possible? I understand I would still not be able to withdraw the funds until this gets worked out but I'm wondering how frozen the isk is. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Will customers still be allowed to transfer isk between accounts, so that we can still at least conduct business of sorts? Try, let me know if it doesn't work. Originally by: Fleshbot Have you thought about not turning on the switch per see of withdrawals, but instead placing a minimum cap on all accounts once some form of liquidity is achieved so as to avoid complete and total blow out? Can you explain this further, not sure what you mean? Originally by: Fleshbot Have you thought about, or at least talked with a possible lender of last resort? No, the bank won't be allowed to sink further into debt, either public or private. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:08:00 - [84] Originally by: Ray McCormack Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. That's a good point. I think the main complaint, from what I've read, is ebank is basically saying this offer is compulsory. Most people can make 5% per month with little effort, and a year in eve is a very long time.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:09:00 - [85] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha How can I be the only one (along with those ATM posting in game) who can easily see this? Oh my, you must be an exceptional genius, please can I be like you? You've made whatever point you were trying to (I certainly can't see), go back to playing auditor now. Keep up with the detached-superiority irony, it's me who I need it now. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:10:00 - [86] Originally by: Miss CutieTrader But u aint giving ppl the chooise ....ure basicly pushing down the solution down their troath.... its here the issue lays...not the isk itself, in my eyes. What other solution must we offer? Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:10:00 - [87] I'll admit, I'm not a real EBank follower, and I mostly seem top hear news about you when something bad happens. Still, reading this, I have just one question - WTF? Looking at the financials, a few things stand out. One, your salaries expense, more than 75B, is really high - all I can remember hearing about EBank salaries was that they were pretty token, maybe a hundred mil a month at the high end. Were those numbers a misunderstanding on my part, lies, or are they legit and you just have a huge salaried workforce? Second, even ignoring the 275 bil default, you have another 100+B of defaults on there. Just how many collateral-free loans did you give out, and why? Did you at least charge a pretty savage risk premium for them? Why did you continue making inherently risky low/no collateral loans for such a long time(at least a year and a half, from the looks of it) after the defaults started rolling in? And third, that loss statement cannot possibly be complete. 1221 B in losses, and 1174 B of negative equity, implies a lifetime gross revenue of 47 billion. Those titan BPCs alone should have made you more than that in the last few months. Can you put together a calculation of lifetime revenues, figure out what the uncounted losses would have to amount to? Also, a broader question. Did the people running EBank see regular financial statements? If so, were they incomplete, screwed-up, or intentionally falsified? Is there any way to tell when these errors crept into your statements, and when your understanding of your financial position became this utterly wrong? Because this information makes it look like you either had a pretty epic fraudster or fool as an accountant, or your financial data was hilariously incomplete from the beginning.
Miss CutieTrader Sandline International Trading Corp Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:11:00 - [88] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Miss CutieTrader I might not get this right....nor do I have isk invested in EBANK personally or corperation isk. However if it was me having said 10b in ure bank, I would be pretty ****ed right now. basicly you give ppl no chooice, it looks like for me basicly like a kidnapping of ppls isk. You could in my eyes made a much bether PR solution. a example: give ppl the chance to vote...between getting % of their investment back right away....said A) 60-70% of their isk back or b) do as u did. However , u basicly just said "this is how we do it, we simply gonna freeze all your accounts..and not give out intrests" Simply by giving ppl the chooise u would have gotten out much bether. most ppl would prob choose B anyways. and if they didnt , it shows how litle fait they got in u. Either chase u would have looked bether in my eyes We did think of other options, and we're still open to new ideas. But see my sums above. This isn't such a bad option. rgr, then I see that ure thoughts is prob intended as good...so I ofc hope it works out good, and it seems like u thought of it so..Im no gonna put more salt into rue wounds. GL.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:13:00 - [89] Originally by: Mephistocles That's a good point. I think the main complaint, from what I've read, is ebank is basically saying this offer is compulsory. Most people can make 5% per month with little effort, and a year in eve is a very long time. We'll look at opening this possibility up, but it won't happen until the Board agrees the deficit calculation is accurate. That means the loan audit needs to be complete, defaulted collateral liquidated and several other requirements. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:13:00 - [90] I'm willing to maintain my trust in EBANK for now. Transparency is definitely something I demand, though. I'd like to know what's being done to make sure I get my money back. I imagine I'll still be playing Eve a year from now, and I'd like to be able to get that money back eventually, at least. Its nothing huge in the long run, I can make it back. But I agree with others here in that the thing that made EBANK stand apart was the trust people had in it. That trust is gone. There were no announcements (that I saw) to indicate that you had discovered problems and were taking steps to counter them... simply one moment everything was fine, and the next moment my account is frozen. I understand why you're doing what you're doing. I don't like it, but I understand it. So, for now, I will simply wait. I am, however, disappointed. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Secondskin	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:17:00 - [91] Things people need to know: - total value of existing deposits on paper - total capitalization (deposits - actual cap = deficit to recover) - your specific plan for covering that distance. So far the "plan" consists of freezing withdrawals to stabilize existing capitalization, then using that borrowed capital to generate profit with which to make up the gap. Investors and depositors need to know how fast you're going to make money so they can determine how long it will take for you to honor your outstanding obligations. They also need some kind of reward to offset this spate of managerial malfeasance. Freezing interest is a bad idea; you should shoot whichever director dreamed it up. Interest is the way by which investors are paid for loaning their money to the bank. A freeze means you are holding money and are leveraging it for profit (salaries) without compensation. Even if the depositors get their funds back, you've deprived them of their assets for a period of time and prevented them from using those assets to make more money. That's bad juju. Things that can come later: - a description of how you weight your debt assets on risk - a formal statement on operating capitalization; how much cash you will keep on hand to satisfy normal transaction demands and have a rainy day fund for the occasional withdrawal spree - your "plan" to recover on defaulted loans In-game, aside from freezing someone's existing assets, what can you do? You've apparently taken no collateral on your loans and have been counting the outstanding loan values as part of your total capitalization. That's shady bookkeeping at best, fraud at worst. Outside the game you would have legal resources to pursue debtors, but outside the game you'd also be sued for not allowing people access to their accounts - its a severe breach of contract, if not outright theft. Stop promising tripled profits and a magic filling-in of the deficit. Start showing real plans and numbers. Or, as has been suggested, liquidate and go home.
Viper ShizzIe The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:18:00 - [92] I have begun the process of petitioning CCP for a bailout, I hope you all will do the same.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:19:00 - [93] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Looking at the financials, a few things stand out. One, your salaries expense, more than 75B, is really high - all I can remember hearing about EBank salaries was that they were pretty token, maybe a hundred mil a month at the high end. Were those numbers a misunderstanding on my part, lies, or are they legit and you just have a huge salaried workforce? I have no idea, link me some posts regarding the amounts and I'll get an answer from payroll. It also includes the large costs for the website development. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Second, even ignoring the 275 bil default, you have another 100+B of defaults on there. Just how many collateral-free loans did you give out, and why? Did you at least charge a pretty savage risk premium for them? Why did you continue making inherently risky low/no collateral loans for such a long time(at least a year and a half, from the looks of it) after the defaults started rolling in? Ricdic appears to have been in charge of most loans. He left a mess, simple truth. Why he gave out so many loans without collateral is beyond me. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto And third, that loss statement cannot possibly be complete. 1221 B in losses, and 1174 B of negative equity, implies a lifetime gross revenue of 47 billion. Those titan BPCs alone should have made you more than that in the last few months. Can you put together a calculation of lifetime revenues, figure out what the uncounted losses would have to amount to? Those are all the outgoings that we could possibly list, the rest must be from additional theft, long-term income deficits or reporting errors. Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Also, a broader question. Did the people running EBank see regular financial statements? If so, were they incomplete, screwed-up, or intentionally falsified? Is there any way to tell when these errors crept into your statements, and when your understanding of your financial position became this utterly wrong? Because this information makes it look like you either had a pretty epic fraudster or fool as an accountant, or your financial data was hilariously incomplete from the beginning. They didn't, there isn't, and about three days after I joined. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Bernie Ebbers	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:22:00 - [94] You could always pick option three: Take your ball and go home. And honestly, if you've already paid yourselves 75 billion isk, you're half way there.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:22:00 - [95] Originally by: Secondskin stuff Thanks for your suggestions, we'll take them into consideration. But I won't let anybody shoot me. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:22:00 - [96] Edited by: Kazzac Elentria on 25/08/2009 20:22:48 Originally by: Ray McCormack Try, let me know if it doesn't work. Will do Quote: Can you explain this further, not sure what you mean? Credit unions often require minimum account balances, even to the point where the savings account has a minimum balance that is always there until you close out the account completely. This might allow you to incrementally increase liquidity, and ultimately prevent this ** from happening again. Quote:** No, the bank won't be allowed to sink further into debt, either public or private. Understandable and commendable. One more that came to mind... are all loans from this date forward being collateralized or will you be retroactively adding collateral requirements to existing accounts as well?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:25:00 - [97] Originally by: Garthran Also, when it was first suggested something was wrong, before I read this thread, I emptied my account. Should you re-enable interest bearing (soon, I hope. I feel that I am still entitled to some compensation for the deprivation of assets) I will be bearing interest on 0.17 ISK, despite the fact that the bank will still be holding the rest of the ISK. Is there a way to have that withdrawal reversed? Account name is for this character. What? No. But hopefully our actions over the next year will alleviate your disappointment. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Nemi Lethal Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:28:00 - [98] Would ebank allow some debt restructuring service to purchase current Ebank account holders accounts at say 20% value and have those accounts consolidated into a single restructured account.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:28:00 - [99] ok Ray i updated my first page post, sorry for the delay, you know how work is
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:28:00 - [100] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Credit unions often require minimum account balances, even to the point where the savings account has a minimum balance that is always there until you close out the account completely. This might allow you to incrementally increase liquidity, and ultimately prevent this ** from happening again. I think that's a complex solution to a simple problem, maybe I'm missing something else? Originally by:** Kazzac Elentria One more that came to mind... are all loans from this date forward being collateralized or will you be retroactively adding collateral requirements to existing accounts as well? All loans since Ricdic was fired have been backed by collateral. Existing loans without collateral will be glared at until they conform. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:31:00 - [101] This was your only question not answered in the OP (unless you need me to elaborate on some of them specifically?). Originally by: Grendell - Were you specifically brought in on the board to help make this decision, and make a cleanup? No, I was voted in as Chair whilst still completing the audit (which didn't take months, but rather days), and the true extent of the deficit wasn't yet apparent, just suspected. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:33:00 - [102] Originally by: Nemi Lethal Would ebank allow some debt restructuring service to purchase current Ebank account holders accounts at say 20% value and have those accounts consolidated into a single restructured account. If you can explain how that would even work to the benefit of any party then you have my ear. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:35:00 - [103] Originally by: Ray McCormack I think that's a complex solution to a simple problem, maybe I'm missing something else? More or less Im getting at perhaps you guys should institute a minimum daily balance on specific accounts, and migrate your savings more towards a CD model instead of the current open savings/sweep that you have now. It would give you more time in determining how much capital is required at any given moment, and increase your planning options for the future. Now is more or less the time to rethink the current model
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:37:00 - [104] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Now is more or less the time to rethink the current model Oh fur shure, but we have oodles of time to change the model now. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:38:00 - [105] Originally by: Ray McCormack I have no idea, link me some posts regarding the amounts and I'll get an answer from payroll. It also includes the large costs for the website development. This post - Selene D'Celeste said "...for many months, no one at EBANK received a salary, and even now that salary is token enough that few if any employees can fund a single account on a GTC with said salary." I can't find any other posts to this effect via a quick Google, and it seems 100 mil might have been a lowball from my memory, but those numbers don't add up to 3-4 bil per month unless you have a much larger salaried staff than I expect. And I hope you didn't spend all that many billions on website development, though to be fair I've never seen a costing for a website like yours. Originally by: Ray McCormack Ricdic appears to have been in charge of most loans. He left a mess, simple truth. Why he gave out so many loans without collateral is beyond me. Ugh. I start to see why people talked about having more trust in EBank after he took his ball and went home. Originally by: Ray McCormack Those are all the outgoings that we could possibly list, the rest must be from additional theft, long-term income deficits or reporting errors. Is your asset list complete, or is there a possibility of a few hundred billion more hiding under some rocks? Assets-liabilities = lifetime revenue-lifetime expenses, so work on getting as good of information on all four as you can, and then figure out the gap that remains. Originally by: Ray McCormack They didn't, there isn't, and about three days after I joined. A bank without accountants. No wonder you're in trouble. Best of luck backtracking through this swamp.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:42:00 - [106] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Nemi Lethal Would ebank allow some debt restructuring service to purchase current Ebank account holders accounts at say 20% value and have those accounts consolidated into a single restructured account. If you can explain how that would even work to the benefit of any party then you have my ear. Current EBank account holder needs money now, sells locked isk for free isk at a serious loss. Buyer gets ownership of locked isk, and makes a bundle if EBank ever opens its doors for withdrawals again. And if you are allowing internal transfers of isk, as you indicated above, this shouldn't be a problem - any existing depositor can offer this service trivially, without even really needing your help.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:42:00 - [107] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Looking at the financials, a few things stand out. One, your salaries expense, more than 75B, is really high - all I can remember hearing about EBank salaries was that they were pretty token, maybe a hundred mil a month at the high end. Were those numbers a misunderstanding on my part, lies, or are they legit and you just have a huge salaried workforce? Standard participation was 100m a month. Dont participate you dont get paid. Tellers received higher as they were processing transactions. Since Ric embezzled all salaries were halted. Quote: Loans Ricdic summarily made decisions on loans with out consulting others. Since the change a firm collateral policy has been in place and all loan offerings are posted where board members can post red flags if warranted. Quote: Did the people running EBank see regular financial statements? No. Since Ray has come on board we have a living document where we have been able to see current information. Quote: or your financial data was hilariously incomplete from the beginning. I asked on two occasions for the backup data for Hexxx's EBANK Statements and received nothing. It is my belief he was plugging in numbers dictated by Ric. Complete conjecture on my part.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:46:00 - [108] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto This post - Selene D'Celeste said "...for many months, no one at EBANK received a salary, and even now that salary is token enough that few if any employees can fund a single account on a GTC with said salary." When I came on board to EBANK a few months in it was decided we were liquid enough to back pay salaries. I dont have exact numbers infront of me but something like 75b /18 months/15 people
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Now is more or less the time to rethink the current model Oh fur shure, but we have oodles of time to change the model now. I wouldn't say oodles, the freezing is nothing more than a stop gap. I respect you Ray, tons and think out of everyone here you happen to be one of the few to pull this crap out of the mud. But running a bank is just a slightly bit different than say your previous businesses. That said, how soon until depositors can get a outlined plan with date goals?
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:50:00 - [110] The plan has % goals, not date goals. Please review the OP
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Athre Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto This post - Selene D'Celeste said "...for many months, no one at EBANK received a salary, and even now that salary is token enough that few if any employees can fund a single account on a GTC with said salary." When I came on board to EBANK a few months in it was decided we were liquid enough to back pay salaries. I dont have exact numbers infront of me but something like 75b /18 months/15 people So the average salary was around a quarter bil a month?
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:57:00 - [112] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Athre Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto This post - Selene D'Celeste said "...for many months, no one at EBANK received a salary, and even now that salary is token enough that few if any employees can fund a single account on a GTC with said salary." When I came on board to EBANK a few months in it was decided we were liquid enough to back pay salaries. I dont have exact numbers infront of me but something like 75b /18 months/15 people So the average salary was around a quarter bil a month? I think the term average is misleading. Development time was cost in, participation time cost in and tellering transactions. There may be more but since I was not doing payroll I may have missed some of the nuts and bolts. Those are the highlights I recall. A Director that did nothing more than participate would have received 100m a month, retroactive.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:00:00 - [113] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I wouldn't say oodles, the freezing is nothing more than a stop gap. It's a pretty large gap. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria That said, how soon until depositors can get a outlined plan with date goals? A month or so. The plans are there, they just need to be formulated and put onto paper. I also have other reporting tools that need to be in place before that can happen. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:03:00 - [114] Yeah sorry about that, just poorly explained by me - Regarding the Staff salaries, I was wondering if the staff will still be paid the same wages as they were before the freeze. I understand they will still be paid, probably a year down the line or so, was just wondering if there is a review of how much everyone is getting paid? As in will Staff be paid more once salaries start getting paid again, with the increased workload or will they do the opposite. - As far as the Timeline question goes, I understand it will be roughly a year before you unfreeze. So does that mean you plan on unfreezing once the defecit is in the positive? Or will there be a planned surplus built up by that 1 year where the unfreeze will take place?
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:09:00 - [115] Been taking a close look at the financials, and I have 2 questions (sorry if this has already been asked and answered): 1. Total loans on balance sheet = 257B Profit / Loss sheet, loans = 104B Is the difference between the two numbers relating to asset back loans (secure) for the profit/loss and the balance sheet shows ALL loans (including those with no security)? 2. Investment (Ventures) = 72B This shows no profit or loss or information. Is this a potential asset where you are not sure of its status?
Frug Repo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:12:00 - [116] Edited by: Frug on 25/08/2009 21:12:31 Just let all the people whining about how this is 'tantamount to theft' take 50% of their deposits back, and everyone else who believes you can fix ebank can agree to the freeze and leave their money where it is. And every dunce writing ten paragraph rants at you about how you should liquidate to 'restore trust' (a rather stupid opinion. what trust? how would that help?) when they don't even have money invested should just get ignored. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:12:00 - [117] Originally by: Grendell - Regarding the Staff salaries, I was wondering if the staff will still be paid the same wages as they were before the freeze. I understand they will still be paid, probably a year down the line or so, was just wondering if there is a review of how much everyone is getting paid? As in will Staff be paid more once salaries start getting paid again, with the increased workload or will they do the opposite. We'll review that under the consolidation of ventures, but currently nothing has been changed. Originally by: Grendell - As far as the Timeline question goes, I understand it will be roughly a year before you unfreeze. So does that mean you plan on unfreezing once the defecit is in the positive? Or will there be a planned surplus built up by that 1 year where the unfreeze will take place? This was laid out in the OP, see the 85% and 90% comments. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:15:00 - [118] Originally by: cosmoray Is the difference between the two numbers relating to asset back loans (secure) for the profit/loss and the balance sheet shows ALL loans (including those with no security)? The difference is toxic loans that should be defaulted. Originally by: cosmoray This shows no profit or loss or information. Is this a potential asset where you are not sure of its status? 30b is the start of the new consolidated venture, which will report monthly income as it accrues (not forecasts). The remainder is in ventures that are liquidating and thus returning nothing. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:16:00 - [119] Thanks for your replies Ray, rock on buddy.
Shamasu	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:16:00 - [120] Originally by: Viper **zIe I have begun the process of petitioning CCP for a bailout, I hope you all will do the same. I like that idea... When withdrawals are finally open up again (hopefully), I bet there's going to be a massive wave of withdrawals. You might want to come up with some kind of a incentive to stay with the bank once it does reopen, like backpaying at least some of the interest.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:16:00 - [121] I'm off to bed for now, I'll respond in the morning to any questions that Athre or Hexxx can't, don't or won't answer. You won't receive a response from any other member of staff besides the three of us. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Itana Gelari	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:34:00 - [122] Edited by: Itana Gelari on 25/08/2009 21:34:46 I am by no means a grand master of the financial jujitsu that is the EVE Market, but I would like to put my two pence out on the line. This may be a hair-brained (read: not applicable to this situation) idea, but I thought I would throw it out there. If I understand this at all correctly, and I am probably grossly mistaken, part of the way the United States Government deals with financial woes is to 'sell' debt to another nation; in particular we owe a good deal to China. I'm not sure the pay rate (dollar for dollar, pennies on the dollar, pennies on the hundreds, or what ever). However, given the nature of your 'toxic loans' and other defaulted loans, it seems to me that this idea would be beneficial to EBank as a means of generating liquidity from otherwise 'lost causes'. (I think this idea was hinted at previously, but I'm not sure) It's not the best idea, but it's a good compromise between complete seizing/freezing of all accounts and total liquidation of E-Bank and closing down. I also recognize the far-fetched nature of this (who in their right mind would want to buy a toxic loan?), but there just -may- be some people/organizations/corporations out there who are willing to take the risk and try to acquire repayment of the loan. Maybe not the massive, multi-billion ISK loans, but the (I would imagine) fortune of smaller loans where, if the corp fails to receive payment, they are at no substantial loss. Again, I could very well be talking out of my ass, but i wanted to put this out there. Best of luck E-Bank and all!
Jadun	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:36:00 - [123] yo ho all 1. EBank is like BAMBI now? 2. Will there be a Name Change for the duration of the Freeze? Maybe Something like.. "Project: Frozen Isk (That you cannot touch or even lick like Ice cream)" I donot believe that you can still be called a Bank. So you get a 1.7 Trillion isk loan for year and you pay no intrest. Did you guys acount for the chance that someone of that so called Project Frozen Isk might do a runner with some more of that Ice-cream Isk that you are holding hostage right now?
Bernie Ebbers	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:41:00 - [124] I could probably get together a syndicate of some very wealthy players to take over Ebank. But we wouldn't keep the existing board if we're going to inject billions of ISK into the firm as equity capitol.
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:55:00 - [125] Edited by: Lecherito on 25/08/2009 21:57:20 So every time that something like this happens, meaning scandal or misfortune plagues the MD MVPs, a group of uncomfortably naive individuals arises to voice unconditional support for those affected. Our precious "MD Elite" have, effectively, stolen over a trillion ISK in public money. Their "might get it back, might not, mayhaps a year" attitude is akin to the bipolar mentality we saw in LRN's attention whoring, some months ago. Commendable? I think not. How the bajeezus are those whose ISK you've unethically seized not entitled to input concerning how their capital is utilized? Do the MD elites truly have the authority, the faith, to pull this off while retaining their "good" names? If anyone else even attempted something like this, they'd be flamed out of MD indefinitely. But because of the "prestige" associated with names like Ray and Athre, people continue to give them the benefit of the doubt. How is this sound? How is that continued faith justifiable? Ebank started off as corrupt, continued to act corruptly, and has just embarked on one of the most corrupt paths possible. When the F will MDers start standing up for themselves?? -L
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:00:00 - [126] "Welcome aboard Ebank 1, Ray" "Thank's Ebank - what's our current destination?" "We're thinking about a nose-dive into that corn field over there. It looked safer than the volcano." Seriously Ray, thanks for being honest, and best of luck. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:02:00 - [127] A fool and his money is soon departed. In this case... fools. The only thing size did for eBank was disguise and delay the enevitable corruption. There will be more as these directors (like rats) sieze assets and flee the sinking ship with the gold. [FREE ADVICE] Watch the up coming eBank share float on the back of the opening og a another high interest account. This will maximise the 'screw over' of this community when they grow some brains and go for the 'largest scam ever' to make the news. Try not to get your isk caught up in their ego-stroke. The real outrage should be the 75 BILLION these so called directors took home. They couldn't direct water out of a tap. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:08:00 - [128] I applaud the remaining staff for their efforts, but I agree that a choice should be put to account holders on how to proceed as soon as the details become clear. For some people, the priority will be to get a certain amount of isk out quickly, and their wishes ought to be respected as far as possible. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:16:00 - [129] Originally by: Lecherito Edited by: Lecherito on 25/08/2009 21:57:20 So every time that something like this happens, meaning scandal or misfortune plagues the MD MVPs, a group of uncomfortably naive individuals arises to voice unconditional support for those affected. Our precious "MD Elite" have, effectively, stolen over a trillion ISK in public money. Their "might get it back, might not, mayhaps a year" attitude is akin to the bipolar mentality we saw in LRN's attention whoring, some months ago. Commendable? I think not. How the bajeezus are those whose ISK you've unethically seized not entitled to input concerning how their capital is utilized? Do the MD elites truly have the authority, the faith, to pull this off while retaining their "good" names? If anyone else even attempted something like this, they'd be flamed out of MD indefinitely. But because of the "prestige" associated with names like Ray and Athre, people continue to give them the benefit of the doubt. How is this sound? How is that continued faith justifiable? Ebank started off as corrupt, continued to act corruptly, and has just embarked on one of the most corrupt paths possible. When the F will MDers start standing up for themselves?? -L I can wish Ray good luck pulling this one out while simultaneously maintaining my 0 isk investment. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company Independent Faction	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:18:00 - [130] Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 25/08/2009 22:18:45 I, for one, trust EBANK completely. ~ MED-SEC ~ AND The Blatantly Obvious
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:22:00 - [131] Nothing to worry about - Ray is running EBANK like AATP I think that your share values need to be looked at; I would value your portfolio a lot lower, although you do seem to be missing 10 billion in Titans4U. Why only the three of you to field questions, and none of them your PR person? -- -- DesuSigs
Ebolak Vengeance Asset Relocation Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:25:00 - [132] Ray, why dont you allow speculators to buy account balances, but make it a two pronged attack on the problem. The offers ive seen are to buy out existing accounts at 10% of thier value. If you combined this with only selling them 90% of the balance, they still have a massive gain if and when you guys become solvent, and you would cut down on your obligations by 10% from the start. PS if this idea sucks its because im not a banker. Im a schemer, but im solvent
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:30:00 - [133] Quote: If anyone else even attempted something like this, they'd be flamed out of MD indefinitely This is what happened when I tried to take over on a failed IPO's debts: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1120822 "So basically by offering such a low rate of return you want investors to shoulder your risk and offer said investors virtually nothing for their trust -- nevermind their patience on an incredibly long time frame" "This plan is a gem. 16 months to recover 10% has to be a joke. That is longer than I have been playing this game. This is a joke, right?" Now, we are talking of a many magnitudes bigger debt and a year+ of time if all goes well... for my same 10% interest? No, for 0%. Now, my salvage plan was a "let's try it, if they accept we both get a good deal" thing and when I made it I gave it a 30% chance to be accepted. In EBANK case, someone came up with this brilliant idea to scare the HELL out of depositors by kidnapping their accounts to undefined date? I mean, I - small fry, did not consider that more than a "try" attempt and top qualified bankers come up with a poorer plan? What is the rationale beyond "on paper accounting" that makes a political / economical entity survive after such a decision? WHY would an investor still believe in the EBANK security after this has been pulled onto their necks? Is it possible that there's really not a single other way to come up with exercise money? Heck, I have seen "normal" investees recapitalizing and / or converting a debt into another. Was this path explored? Quote: Ebank started off as corrupt, continued to act corruptly, and has just embarked on one of the most corrupt paths possible. When the F will MDers start standing up for themselves?? It's not corrupt. It's stupid. It can work VERY well with a sort of chapter 11 company but this is an institution whose principles should have been: - transparency - safety of money above ALL - low interest but super-high availability of capital. Now, the transparency arrived at last. But safety of money is... ransomed. Not to talk about the availability of capital. I don't know if I am stupid or what, but how comes I can clearly see people suddenly being unable to i.e. buy their long coveted ORCA BPO or actually giving money they pre-reserved at Bad Bobby's IPO? Those guys won't forget the blow - the second in a row. Quote: Ray, why dont you allow speculators to buy account balances, but make it a two pronged attack on the problem Imho if they cave in to that, they will show like Mercs who were paid to kill a guy but the guy outbuys them and makes them steer objective back on the guy who hired them. Might pay in the short term but it's horrible, horrible rep. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Josh Silver Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:37:00 - [134] The salaries are quite low. You make 100m by 0.0 ratting or running missions for one evening, compared to a month of dealing with accounts, Excel sheets and dumb customers. You should have cut the toxic loan losses when you took over, distribute them among the active accounts (everyone loses 30% or whatever) and lay the full blame on the ex-CEO.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:51:00 - [135] Edited by: Taikun on 25/08/2009 22:52:30 Originally by: Ebolak Ray, why dont you allow speculators to buy account balances, but make it a two pronged attack on the problem. They will... but it wil be to themselves via alts. That way they gobble up 50% of the value for themselves without having to outright steal it. A bank balance is not a share and any attempt from eBank to treat it as such should be considered embezzlement. They will fake some more bad news... depositors get scared... they refuse to release funds to depositors but a mysterious third party (controled by them) offers to buy at back @ 50% its isk value. They approve transaction and the depositor is screwed over. I suspect an aanouncement they are approving this as the opportunity is too tempting to resist for the scruples of the existing directors. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:21:00 - [136] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 25/08/2009 22:52:30 Originally by: Ebolak Ray, why dont you allow speculators to buy account balances, but make it a two pronged attack on the problem. They will... but it wil be to themselves via alts. That way they gobble up 50% of the value for themselves without having to outright steal it. A bank balance is not a share and any attempt from eBank to treat it as such should be considered embezzlement. They will fake some more bad news... depositors get scared... they refuse to release funds to depositors but a mysterious third party (controled by them) offers to buy at back @ 50% its isk value. They approve transaction and the depositor is screwed over. I suspect an aanouncement they are approving this as the opportunity is too tempting to resist for the scruples of the existing directors. Taikun I fear this too. I hereby offer my EBANK account plus contents for sale to any of EBANK's board at a value equal to the amount of ISK I have in EBANK. I get my money back, you get a 3% account and demonstrate your trust in EBANK. -- --
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:37:00 - [137] Just noticed this thread and I must say hats off to Ray and the Ebank team for their transparency regarding the situation. [IRD] Liquidity is a little tight at the moment however if it helps I can offer to repurchase 100,000 IRD shares from Ebank at 50,000 ISK per share (Total 5b). Ebank would stand to profit 2.3b ISK (does not include dividends recieved since purchase). If memory serves correctly at the time of purchase they were 27,000 ISK each. Also, I've just credited this month's 7.5% bond interest payment a couple of hours early. Regards Ulecese ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
Sweetbaby Ray	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:44:00 - [138] In other words, EVE Bank is saying, "So long, and thanks for all the ISK."
Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:44:00 - [139] Originally by: Bernie Ebbers I could probably get together a syndicate of some very wealthy players to take over Ebank. But we wouldn't keep the existing board if we're going to inject billions of ISK into the firm as equity capitol. Could you please stop posting, or at least type "Capital" right ?
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:58:00 - [140] Originally by: Marcus Baltar I fear this too. I hereby offer my EBANK account plus contents for sale to any of EBANK's board at a value equal to the amount of ISK I have in EBANK. I get my money back, you get a 3% account and demonstrate your trust in EBANK. If EBank directors were willing to give you 100%, they wouldn't have frozen withdrawals.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:00:00 - [141] Originally by: Ray McCormack A month or so. The plans are there, they just need to be formulated and put onto paper. I also have other reporting tools that need to be in place before that can happen. Works for me.
Wengy Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:02:00 - [142] "Hat's off" did someone say!?!?! WTF? Even after Ridic they kept accepting deposits, there's no possible way they couldn't have known about a 1.2 Trillion deficit. So they must have kept accepting deposits with full knowledge they'd eventually have to seize and stop all services. So they accepted deposits after Ridic's firing, in hopes of using the ISK to cover their losses I guess. What a sham.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:06:00 - [143] Offering to purchase accounts at reduced value to allow immediate liquidity for certain customers is actually a novel idea. Ebank loses nothing, and the seller gets their isk immediately and the purchaser stands to make out like a mint. I'd likely throw 400b easy into such a credit default swap.
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:18:00 - [144] Originally by: Wengy "Hat's off" did someone say!?!?! WTF? Even after Ridic they kept accepting deposits, there's no possible way they couldn't have known about a 1.2 Trillion deficit. So they must have kept accepting deposits with full knowledge they'd eventually have to seize and stop all services. So they accepted deposits after Ridic's firing, in hopes of using the ISK to cover their losses I guess. What a sham. "Hat's off" in regards to the honesty and no bulls%&t presentation of the facts to their clients. I was praising the transparency and integrity of the ebank board, not the situation they have on their hands ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:20:00 - [145] Originally by: Wengy "Hat's off" did someone say!?!?! WTF? Even after Ridic they kept accepting deposits, there's no possible way they couldn't have known about a 1.2 Trillion deficit. So they must have kept accepting deposits with full knowledge they'd eventually have to seize and stop all services. So they accepted deposits after Ridic's firing, in hopes of using the ISK to cover their losses I guess. What a sham. According to what was said above, EBank kept virtually no financial records. Them not knowing about the deficit is actually frighteningly possible.
For Sooth	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:22:00 - [146] Edited by: For Sooth on 26/08/2009 00:23:34 Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 25/08/2009 22:52:30 Originally by: Ebolak Ray, why dont you allow speculators to buy account balances, but make it a two pronged attack on the problem. They will... but it wil be to themselves via alts. That way they gobble up 50% of the value for themselves without having to outright steal it. A bank balance is not a share and any attempt from eBank to treat it as such should be considered embezzlement. They will fake some more bad news... depositors get scared... they refuse to release funds to depositors but a mysterious third party (controled by them) offers to buy at back @ 50% its isk value. They approve transaction and the depositor is screwed over. I suspect an aanouncement they are approving this as the opportunity is too tempting to resist for the scruples of the existing directors. Taikun May I draw your attention here.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:26:00 - [147] Just couple of questions; 1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that. 2. It's known that EBank owns shares of public corporation including Flux Technologies, does EBank plan to hold onto those shares or sell them off at higher than purchase price? 3. Relating to #2, because you guys froze all accounts; customers can't retrieve their isk or earn interest. What's to stop other corporation whose shares are owned by EBank from sending dividends to EBank? I don't have any investment in EBank but if I did, my line of thought would probably be like this "If I can't get my money, why should I send these guys money?" Good luck
species2143	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:56:00 - [148] Ray I really hope you're not involved in the titans4U project like was suggested by a previous poster in this thread, cuz that would be an eclatant conflict of interest by being a business model that directly competes with EBANK on one of it's core income sources.... Also freezing the interest rates while blocking all withdrawals is not a decision that you should have made by yourself but ratheris a decision that the shareholders and customers should have taken. It doesn't matter how you justify the decision you took, it was not your call to make since you and the board of directors aren't the ones risking the real ISK unlike the shareholders and customers. You have just condemned EBANK with that move cuz your reasoning is lets stick the finger in the hole so the dam won't brake, yet you're forgetting that you won't be receiving any further liquidity from deposits since there is no longer a point to deposit money in EBANK since there is no interest rates. Now with that said the so called plan to fill the gap is a complete joke... it states % but no timetable?! What kind of a joke of management are you guys on the board? Any financial institution is able to give a best-case and worst-case timetable, do you really believe investors will be safistied with that answer until you guys get your act together? Oh I forgot, you don't really care about what the investors think... you simply assume you know what they think. Yes these are harsh words not at all layed out in a diplomatic manner, but to be honoest you guys on the board deserved it. One can blame ricdic to a certain degree because one has to include the people that allowed for such a situation to occur in the first place... I'm not reffering to you but rather to those sheep on the board while ricdic was CEO. Those people are equally responsible for what happened from my point of view. With all this said, I really hope that EBANK makes it out of this crysis and will learn, improve and prosper. Also I really respect that you're willing to stand by your decisions and take the heat of the comments such as mine. I fear that although your decisions and measures are correct from a rational point of view, they still forget that the essence of any banking business is the trust relationship with it's customers. This move of freezing the accounts without even suggesting paying interest whenever possible has completely abused that trust and might be a fatal mistake.
Brian Kwok	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:02:00 - [149] Originally by: species2143 Also freezing the interest rates while blocking all withdrawals is not a decision that you should have made by yourself but ratheris a decision that the shareholders and customers should have taken It doesn't matter how you justify the decision you took, it was not your call to make since you and the board of directors aren't the ones risking the real ISK unlike the shareholders and c Not much worth replying to except that ebank doesn't have shareholders and therefore can do whatever they want. It's not and has never been a public company, something that many people have complained about for a long time.
Stela'Artois Capital Ventures Incorporated	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:05:00 - [150] As a client of Ebank, I am very disheartened to hear about the freeze, though I do appreciate your candidness in the matter. I am looking forward to learning more about your plans to pull out of this mess. Good luck, and I wish you the best. I havent yet checked, but I hope the Ebank website is still live, as I would like to be able to check in on my isk and at least say hello...maybe bring it some cookies or at least give it some company...
Galal Dax The Panopticon G-R-I-E-V-A-N-C-E	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:36:00 - [151] EBank is insolvent. If it were a US Bank, the FDIC would seal the door, close it down, and sell it's assets to a larger bank, that was solvent. Deposits would be safe (FDIC Insured), and would be available for withdrawal at the new bank that has taken the old one over. There is no banking entity here larger than EBank, and the losses cannot be assumed by an FDIC (CCP). As others have said, these actions and the previous scandal have permanently damaged EBank's reputation IMHO, as a very low risk place to park ISK. To me, this should be treated the same way as the much smaller Z'Xera scam IPO: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1119903&page=4 All assets should be liquidated, including all shares, and BPOs, and any other assets. These should then be allocated to current depositors, whether at 40, 50, or 60% on the ISK - whatever it comes out to. Then, the individuals would be able to deploy what ISK that they own as they see fit. There has already been massive fraud, mismanagement from before, hidden assets and deals - who knows what else. Why would anyone choose to continue to have their money in an insolvent bank with this history. Just my honest opinion. I had trusted Ebank, and believed it was a low risk option. As others have said, I don't see how banking will work now after this.
KaarBaak Minmatar Squirrel Team	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:47:00 - [152] Slight topic skew....does anyone know how this is affecting DBank? Can't remember if they're still functioning? If they are, just wondering if this is causing a bank run over there? KB Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:48:00 - [153] Originally by: KaarBaak Slight topic skew....does anyone know how this is affecting DBank? Can't remember if they're still functioning? If they are, just wondering if this is causing a bank run over there? You are probably 2 months out of date as DBank folded
Galal Dax The Panopticon G-R-I-E-V-A-N-C-E	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:51:00 - [154] Edited by: Galal Dax on 26/08/2009 01:50:50 Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: KaarBaak Slight topic skew....does anyone know how this is affecting DBank? Can't remember if they're still functioning? If they are, just wondering if this is causing a bank run over there? You are probably 2 months out of date as DBank folded Brock, if anyone offers to create an F-Bank - please pod them....
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:52:00 - [155] I'm gonna enjoy this. I will say this - if you manage to keep this from becoming a complete flaming, totally unrecoverable wreck, I will be somewhat impressed. And also disappointed that you avoided carrying out (one of?) the biggest scams in Eve history.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:53:00 - [156] Originally by: Galal Dax Edited by: Galal Dax on 26/08/2009 01:50:50 Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: KaarBaak Slight topic skew....does anyone know how this is affecting DBank? Can't remember if they're still functioning? If they are, just wondering if this is causing a bank run over there? You are probably 2 months out of date as DBank folded Brock, if anyone offers to create an F-Bank - please pod them.... Well, there's a "CBank" in the works now, although they're called Eve Central Reserve.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:54:00 - [157] Good luck to anyone trying to recover their money. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:59:00 - [158] So, let me get this right... Ebank never had basic controls. Ebank never had simple, complete, regular financial statements. Ricdic does a runner, but Ebank still doesn¦t know for sure how much he embezzled. Neither the past Chairman, nor the directors admitted to gross negligence or offered to resign. Ebank is technically insolvent. The size of the deficit is still unknown. The bank has defaulted by not permitting withdrawals. Interest accruals are suspended. The bank hopes to restart normal operations in a year or so. Is that about it? Well, there is a very simple solution. It¦s based on the principle of "The buck stops here." Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability. That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others. Not very palatable, directors, is it? Well, tough. Time to pay the piper.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:13:00 - [159] Originally by: Varo Jan So, let me get this right... Ebank never had basic controls. Ebank never had simple, complete, regular financial statements. Ricdic does a runner, but Ebank still doesn¦t know for sure how much he embezzled. Neither the past Chairman, nor the directors admitted to gross negligence or offered to resign. Ebank is technically insolvent. The size of the deficit is still unknown. The bank has defaulted by not permitting withdrawals. Interest accruals are suspended. The bank hopes to restart normal operations in a year or so. Is that about it? Well, there is a very simple solution. It¦s based on the principle of "The buck stops here." Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability. That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others. Not very palatable, directors, is it? Well, tough. Time to pay the piper. If you're going to start importing real-world law, you could start with Chapter 11. That seems to be the sort of idea that they're going for right now.
Nemi Lethal Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:15:00 - [160] Originally by: Varo Jan So, let me get this right... Ebank never had basic controls. Ebank never had simple, complete, regular financial statements. Ricdic does a runner, but Ebank still doesn¦t know for sure how much he embezzled. Neither the past Chairman, nor the directors admitted to gross negligence or offered to resign. Ebank is technically insolvent. The size of the deficit is still unknown. The bank has defaulted by not permitting withdrawals. Interest accruals are suspended. The bank hopes to restart normal operations in a year or so. Is that about it? Well, there is a very simple solution. It¦s based on the principle of "The buck stops here." Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability. That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others. Not very palatable, directors, is it? Well, tough. Time to pay the piper. Best comment in this entire thread.
thebarry	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:17:00 - [161] I am interested in purchasing accounts from people who would rather not wait to be repaid by ebank, but I would like more info with reguards to the balance sheet so I have a better idea of what is a reasonable offer. Thanks for any info, and good luck :)
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:25:00 - [162] Originally by: Varo Jan ... Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability. That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others. Ray, I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Sikozu Prioris Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:26:00 - [163] EBANK has to assume that the second they enable withdrawals again, nearly all deposits will be withdrawn. Further more EBank's supposed low risk perception is now gone for account holders. Surely a higher % will have to be offered on saving accounts once back online or there is no good reason to keep any isk there after loosing all access to it for a year.
Jadun	Posted - 2009.08.26 02:36:00 - [164] yo ho all I would like to see all past and present Directors post in this thread. Please give us a headsup why they think that they deserved to be on the payroll and get Salaries. Are the Salaries going to be paid back to the E Clown House? (Since you are no longer a bank,make up your minds and pick a new name.) How come you got to decid what was in the best intrest of your customers. I have critically analysed the long-term sustainability of the bank and I give it the same chances as a tub of ice-cream in my presents. I accept the fact that you are at fault for draging the situation out longer then it had to be continued. Please take no action and give us no chance of recovery. Better to lose isk now. Rather than wait for a couple of months to hear of another situation where someone gave up late in the game and ran off with the Frozen goods. If you go throu with this unsustainable plan of yours then at least be up front and lie some more and tell us that intrest will not be frozen just the accounts.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2009.08.26 03:22:00 - [165] Time for me to link my post from last year requesting to list ebank as a possible future scam. This suggestion made Kwint angry but it turns out I was right. http://eve-search.com/thread/865035/page/1#25 This is officially the first trillion isk scam in eve that I've been waiting for. Standard interest based ponzi scheme with hush money for the directors. I love the lack of any form of record keeping, surprising that no one on the board noticed this. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Athamai	Posted - 2009.08.26 03:39:00 - [166] Have you considered asking obama for a bailout? Originally by: Ray McCormack Statement from the Board Account Freeze It is with deep regret that we inform you of our decision to suspend certain banking activities with immediate effect. As of now both withdrawals and interest are frozen until further notice. This decision has not come lightly, we have critically analysed all aspects of the business and decided it is in the best interest of our customers and the long-term sustainability of the bank that these actions be taken. Mismanagement In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP. He was also responsible, along with board members, for over-extending credit to a long standing loan customer. This loan, for an overall amount of 275b, was soon defaulted û leaving the bank with little recourse to recover the funds. A 525b ISK loss should have been easy for a bank with 2 trillion in deposits and a year and a half of profit generation behind it; but what wasnÆt clear was the extent to which RicdicÆs mismanagement had harmed the bank. Without proper management reporting it was also impossible for the Board to identify and resolve the worsening crisis, although we accept the fact this situation should never have been allowed to continue unchecked for as long as it did. Deficit With the recent establishment of maintainable financial statements the depth of the situation has started revealing itself. At this point in time EBANK is 1.2t ISK in deficit, which continues to increase by an estimated 12b ISK per month. This is an unacceptable situation, and without drastic action being taken there would be little chance of recovery. Drastic Action òWithdrawals are frozen, with the exception of deposits that were made after this announcement. òAccount interest has also been stopped, with the exception of loan interest. òLoan defaults will be revealed, and ruthlessly pursued. òThe Board will be returned to its full complement of 9 Directors. Interest and Withdrawal Switch Interest will be turned back on when two conditions are met: 1.Interest from non-intensive activities sustainably matches or exceeds the monthly interest expenses. a.Profit generation from sustainable, low maintenance operations needs to exceed 36b ISK. 2.The bank achieves an equity status not less than 85% of its liabilities. a.Available capital must exceed 1.7t ISK. It currently stands at 0.8t. Interest will be switched off again should equity fall below the 80% mark. Withdrawals will be allowed once the bank achieves a maintainable equity status of 90% (1.8t currently); they will be stopped again should that fall below 80%. Losses Losses to date have occurred as follows: 1.~250b û Ricdic Theft. 2.~380b û Loan Defaults 3.>48b û Share Losses 4.~466b û Interest Paid 5.~75b û Salaries There are possibly further losses not accounted for, such as operational losses, additional theft and reporting errors. As these are established we will report on them.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.26 03:50:00 - [167] Good job quoting the OP there. Fail. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Drab Cane Killer Breeze Dread Carbon Initiative	Posted - 2009.08.26 03:50:00 - [168] sigh So much for my unbridled optimism. I've got money in both DBank (yes, I know, I consider it lost), and EBank (which I also can't get my funds from). At least EBank is improving its communication whereas DBank continues to remain silent. Ray, I'm confident you and the EBank team can successfully restructure the bank. I'm just really disappointed that the bank's finances were allowed to decay to this dismal state. So much for EBank never having lost a depositor's money - that's exactly what will happen as depositors accept pennies-on-the-dollar buyouts of their accounts. And so much for the 'high standard' that I thought EBank embodied. Perhaps after the restructuring it will. Certainly the new banking services that are coming into play should be taking EBank's current situation as a stark warning. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Brian Kwok	Posted - 2009.08.26 04:02:00 - [169] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Varo Jan ... Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability. That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others. Ray, I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers. You're joking right?
The Intelligencer	Posted - 2009.08.26 04:17:00 - [170] I personally thought that it was pretty apparent Ricdic was an idiot and completely untrustworthy after a few interactions with him.
Melinda Bettin	Posted - 2009.08.26 04:22:00 - [171] 2008.03.16 -- http://www.eve-search.com/thread/717192/page/3#68 And you know what? My advice is still the same.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.26 04:22:00 - [172] There is a model you can use to get out of this mess if you wish, and I would structure it as follows. 1. Return investments to those who wish to cash out on a fractional basis. Figure out what you need to keep on hand to keep basic isk making operations going and offer a payout with the rest of the isk. Those who stay will get a slightly better deal than those who leave, but your core operations remain intact. You shed the banking portion of the EBank operation and focus on the industrial aspect as an IPO. 2. For those who wish to remain invested in EBank, convert all remaining deposits into an IPO, monitored by a 3rd party or several 3rd parties, and pay them out over the next 12 months AND paying the IPO operator a salary. This will allow you to keep existing isk generating operations going. this will also take most of the administrative difficulties out of EBank, and make life tolerable for you. You could take 6 weeks to figure out a restructuring deal. You can do this by taking the top 10 successful IPO issuers and offer them a deal, with remaining isk, BPO and BPC. 3. You need to lock down operations. You need to name the people who have all bad debts and fire people with conflicts of interest. Set aside a certain amount of isk for mercs and if necessary to destroy people who don't pay up. Also part of the reason others need to know, is to provide them with the information on who the need to kill for revenge. This will provide extra pressure and encourage them to pay their debts. If they face massive losses and potentially loss of their space for not paying a debt, maybe they will choose to pay their debt. For those who do not pay and are able to pay, and cannot be forced to pay, they must be named and shamed as thieves so others can know to avoid them.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.26 04:57:00 - [173] Originally by: Marcus Baltar I think that your share values need to be looked at; I would value your portfolio a lot lower, although you do seem to be missing 10 billion in Titans4U. Thank you, no physical shares were given yet. I'll add this to the spreadsheet
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:16:00 - [174] I was going to troll this thread, but it's already pre-trolled. My work was done before I even began. With that out of the way... What do EBANK directors hope to accomplish by this move? You're signing up for slavery and for what? People are holding YOU responsible for the successful Ponzi scheme pulled off by Ricdic. I got a chuckle out of Ray not understanding why Ric handed out so many unsecured loans. Really? If you had "controls" to convince depositors and employees alike that no one person could abscond with a significant portion of the bank assets, would it not make sense to hand out unsecured "loans" to your friends and alts and simply note "paid" in the ledger when interest comes due? EBANK is finished. Assuming your goal is to indeed run an Eve bank, your best bet is to liquidate, zero the books, and start afresh. If, however, the goal is to steal more money -- by all means, stay the course. Perpetual interest free income on even 500B should be a decent enough salary. Here's what I would do. I would spend 400B on buying empire ice. Then invest 100B in producing armageddons and smartbombs to make sure not a single ice miner lives long enough to mine even a single ice cube. Plenty of community minded citizens will volunteer to smartbomb ice miners round the clock for no compensation. Sell the 400B worth of ice for at least 2B to 0.0 dysprosium moon holders a month later and voila! You've fixed both ebank and eve at the same time. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Astaria Pyreto	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:18:00 - [175] Might help if they allowed people to talk in the channel.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:18:00 - [176] Originally by: Brock Nelson 2. It's known that EBank owns shares of public corporation including Flux Technologies, does EBank plan to hold onto those shares or sell them off at higher than purchase price? The basic problem was that not enough isk was invested wisely or otherwise. Your business offering helps EBANKS customers as its presumed to be a reasonable investment. We actually need to invest more isk wisely and will continue to do so that we may surpass the ROI necessary for accounts to be turned back on.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:22:00 - [177] Originally by: Brock Nelson 1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that. It's not owing, it's what was paid. And I'm not asking for it back. Originally by: Brock Nelson 2. It's known that EBank owns shares of public corporation including Flux Technologies, does EBank plan to hold onto those shares or sell them off at higher than purchase price? That depends on the price and the share. It's a portfolio we'll manage just like any other. Originally by: Brock Nelson 3. Relating to #2, because you guys froze all accounts; customers can't retrieve their isk or earn interest. What's to stop other corporation whose shares are owned by EBank from sending dividends to EBank? I don't have any investment in EBank but if I did, my line of thought would probably be like this "If I can't get my money, why should I send these guys money?" Nothing. I could stand over their shoulder and make them but the air tickets and detective fees to track them down would probably not be worth it. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:26:00 - [178] Originally by: species2143 Ray I really hope you're not involved in the titans4U project like was suggested by a previous poster in this thread I'm not. Originally by: species2143 Now with that said the so called plan to fill the gap is a complete joke... it states % but no timetable?! What kind of a joke of management are you guys on the board? Any financial institution is able to give a best-case and worst-case timetable, do you really believe investors will be safistied with that answer until you guys get your act together? Oh I forgot, you don't really care about what the investors think... you simply assume you know what they think. Read the OP again. And as stated previously we'll publish a plan in a month or so. Originally by: species2143 With all this said, I really hope that EBANK makes it out of this crysis and will learn, improve and prosper. Thank you, all the staff do too. They were free to leave before this decision was made, most decided to stay and stick it out. They're aware they're due some criticism and accept it; they're not running away with tail between their legs. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:27:00 - [179] Originally by: Stela'Artois I havent yet checked, but I hope the Ebank website is still live, as I would like to be able to check in on my isk and at least say hello...maybe bring it some cookies or at least give it some company... We'll definitely keep it up so you can monitor the non-progress of your ISK. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:29:00 - [180] Originally by: Block Ukx Ray, I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers. Agreed, see the plan as outlined in the OP. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:31:00 - [181] Originally by: Jadun I would like to see all past and present Directors post in this thread. Please give us a headsup why they think that they deserved to be on the payroll and get Salaries. Not going to happen. Want a specific response regarding an aspect of the bank either myself, Hexxx or Athre can't answer? We'll get it for you. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:31:00 - [182] species2143 - Thank you for your concerns. EBANK has no worries regarding Titans4U flooding the market. There is actually room for us both and as shown it takes quite a bit to buy Titan BPO's. Bobby's doing quite a lot of work up front. I'm sorry that you feel like you had no voice in the decision. Are you actually a customer? The people who hold shares (not own hold) are the Directors. Please take another look at the original OP. It was not an easy decision but it is one that will eventually regain all the isk our customers have entrusted to us. It also gives a way of making it so that one day we WILL be able to turn on interest. You ask that we consider your perspective and we have. Now consider mine. A teller working withdrawals, having to check every single one for potential contamination or misdoing and then processing them. Having people complain and whine that the withdrawals are not being done fast enough. Then consider that this is a game and while I dont mind doing menial repetitive tasks, I do not appreciate it when people insist my time belongs to them. It doesnt. I do feel a duty to our customers and to that end I have been a strong voice of the 48 hour SLA. Have I missed the deadline a time or two in the year I've been with EBANK? Yes. Have I logged in to process transactions when I really did not feel like it? Yes. Why you may ask? Duty and belief in the entity that is EBANK. Consider that when I asked about Profit and Loss I was waved off and assured that things were fine. I can not tell you how thrilled I was to see a Balance Sheet as one of Ray's first actions. All your hard feelings are understandable. Please also give us the courtesy of showing you we can make this work eventually.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:33:00 - [183] Originally by: Astaria Pyreto Might help if they allowed people to talk in the channel. The ingame channel is broken, we have a petition in but only expect it to be fixed during downtime. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
SloMoJoe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:36:00 - [184] Wow I though Jihad was totally on top of the scam markes. My hats off to EBANK you goon sirs have my adoration and respect. This is my eve online siganture. There are many like it but this one is mine.
The Slagh	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:37:00 - [185] Edited by: The Slagh on 26/08/2009 05:40:01 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Brock Nelson 1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that. It's not owing, it's what was paid. And I'm not asking for it back. That's only cause you and your buds got paid. If you liquidate right now, people lose 70% of their investment. I thought salaries were paid to people who did work, work like stopping stuff like this from happening, which obviously didn't happen. Also, inb4 disgruntled customer. I have never invested any isk with EBANK.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:39:00 - [186] Originally by: Astaria Pyreto Might help if they allowed people to talk in the channel. We have 2 petitions that were originally made as "stuck" but placed in the UI queue. We are hopeful that the channel will reset at down time. I'm not sure what exactly I did wrong when attempting to update the MOTD with this thread and the https of the news page on EBANK's web site. Yes I said it :( I broke the channel
sitar seaton	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:40:00 - [187] In the plan it says that employees will work for free now but will be back-paid in the future. Why is this not being done for depositors also? Accrue interest and pay it once things are turned around. In addition, this thread should be moved to C&P since 'freezing' is just a nicer way of saying stealing.
Steel Wraith	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:42:00 - [188] Suggestions: 1. Determine just where the deficit stands. For this example say it is determined to be around 70%. 2. Allow customers the option of withdrawing, paying back 30%. Eliminate the 70% deficit associated with their account. 3. Continue working towards restoring the remaining accounts to 100/98% as you've described in the OP. If you continue with the account freeze decision I believe you'll do irreparable damage to current and future eve banking.
FinancialDragon	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:48:00 - [189] I just want to say, keep up the hard work Ebank, hope you get back on your feet as soon as possible. And Herschel's idea has some great promise in my eyes, possible market opportunity ;p - Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Current EBank account holder needs money now, sells locked isk for free isk at a serious loss. Buyer gets ownership of locked isk, and makes a bundle if EBank ever opens its doors for withdrawals again. And if you are allowing internal transfers of isk, as you indicated above, this shouldn't be a problem - any existing depositor can offer this service trivially, without even really needing your help.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:51:00 - [190] Originally by: Varo Jan So, let me get this right... Ebank never had basic controls. Ebank never had simple, complete, regular financial statements. Ricdic does a runner, but Ebank still doesn¦t know for sure how much he embezzled. Neither the past Chairman, nor the directors admitted to gross negligence or offered to resign. Ebank is technically insolvent. The size of the deficit is still unknown. The bank has defaulted by not permitting withdrawals. Interest accruals are suspended. The bank hopes to restart normal operations in a year or so. Is that about it? Well, there is a very simple solution. It¦s based on the principle of "The buck stops here." Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability. That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others. Not very palatable, directors, is it? Well, tough. Time to pay the piper. you make me proud!
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:57:00 - [191] Originally by: FinancialDragon I just want to say, keep up the hard work Ebank, hope you get back on your feet as soon as possible. And Herschel's idea has some great promise in my eyes, possible market opportunity ;p - Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Current EBank account holder needs money now, sells locked isk for free isk at a serious loss. Buyer gets ownership of locked isk, and makes a bundle if EBank ever opens its doors for withdrawals again. And if you are allowing internal transfers of isk, as you indicated above, this shouldn't be a problem - any existing depositor can offer this service trivially, without even really needing your help. Not my idea, and like three people are already on it(I was especially amused by the guy posting an auction for Eve isk, denominated in EBank isk), but thanks anyways
Etien Aldragoran DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:59:00 - [192] Hey guys, we've lost ****loads of money. Just wait a year and we'll get it back. Well, at least you've opened up people's minds with hope that you didn't really just run off with their ISK.
Rie Takahashi	Posted - 2009.08.26 06:00:00 - [193] Originally by: Frug Edited by: Frug on 25/08/2009 21:12:31 Just let all the people whining about how this is 'tantamount to theft' take 50% of their deposits back, I would be happy with nothing less than 100% of the money that I put into EBANK, thank you very much. Where do you get this 50% figure from? Idiot.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2009.08.26 06:15:00 - [194] Hey look at this quote from 2008 discussing how ebank wouldn't be the first trillion isk scam. Customers will never feel the impact. Originally by: SencneS If you're looking for EBANK to be the first then you're looking in the wrong direction. There is no way Ricdic could run off with One Trillion ISK. Let alone a select half of EBANK's Staff running off with One Trillion. It's just not setup that way, could a scam happen, yes, but not for as much as you'd expect. Any one of EBANK's Staff or Directors could run off with what they have. Our Tellers, maybe 20bil once. Ricdic maybe a hundred billion but then again he is the center point for deposits for distribution so there is elevated risk there. I think Possible Future Scam is incorrect or at least too broad. I have no problem with people identifying risk and making those comments public. In fact it actually fuels us to find some way to prevent that from happening. Under the current operation of EBANK, I think I can speak this for all of EBANK's Staff and Directors in saying, If someone was to run off with a fraction of EBANK's ISK or Assets, it would not be the public getting scammed. It would indeed be EBANK being scammed. The remaining staff and directors would do anything possible to recover the loss so our account holders would not feel the impact. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Mike Takumi Caldari hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.26 06:24:00 - [195] I've known Ray for a while, he's inherited a bit of a cluster**** thanks to Ric, but he will do the best he can to get this back on track and restore everyone's trust. Ray's one of the few people I know that is kind enough and trustworthy enough to make this a legitimate piece of eve again. Good Luck Ray, I believe in you
Gramtar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 06:24:00 - [196] In what way was this action precipitated by the seizure of another ebank? Quote: ebank, Atlanta, Georgia, was closed today by the Office of Thrift Supervision, which appointed the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) as receiver. To protect the depositors, the FDIC entered into a purchase and assumption agreement with Stearns Bank, National Association, St. Cloud, Minnesota, to assume all of the deposits of ebank... As of July 10, 2009, ebank had total assets of $143 million and total deposits of approximately $130 million. In addition to assuming all of the deposits of the failed bank, Stearns Bank, N.A. agreed to purchase essentially all of the failed bank's assets... The FDIC estimates that the cost to the Deposit Insurance Fund (DIF) will be $63 million. http://www.fdic.gov/news/news/press/2009/pr09147.html
F90OEX F9X Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.08.26 07:18:00 - [197] Anyone who has there Isk tied up in Evebank and that has a loan from myself (50-100bil), I will work with you, so you do not have to worry about losing your assets. I do not know Ray personally but I trust he will work it out.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.08.26 07:29:00 - [198] It's a shame to see the banks in this game all go the same way: scam. This has proven to me that banks simply can't be trusted. I, fortunately, didn't lose any money because I withdrew everything I had the day before the bank closed and I will not invest in another bank. I'd rather sit and stare at my money going to waste in my wallet than get robbed.
testirania	Posted - 2009.08.26 07:46:00 - [199] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Block Ukx Ray, I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers. Agreed, see the plan as outlined in the OP. Actually Ray what that means is that the board have to cough up those 1.2 trillion ISK that are missing right now if all the customers decide to withdraw their ISK......
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.08.26 07:57:00 - [200] Originally by: testirania Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Block Ukx Ray, I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers. Agreed, see the plan as outlined in the OP. Actually Ray what that means is that the board have to cough up those 1.2 trillion ISK that are missing right now if all the customers decide to withdraw their ISK...... Have to? They don't have to do anything. The only thing binding staff members to EBANK now is their personal loyalty to the organization and the concept of a functional player-run bank. I for one am disturbed to find that EBANK was this deeply underwater and no one knew that it was the case. While I'm not certain that a decision to hold depositors' isk hostage is the correct one, it will at least stave off a run on the bank. A year is a horrifyingly long time to wait for withdrawals to come back online, but at least at the end of it Ray and the EBANK staff anticipate being able to provide 100% withdrawals. Hats off to them for making the effort, when it would have been easier to either disappear with the money or perform a firesale liquidation of assets. Originally by: "CCP Pann" Over the last few days, the internet has been under attack
Alex555	Posted - 2009.08.26 08:40:00 - [201] Try to raise some capital selling discounted bonds. Shares do not excite me personally. Try to enter some ventures not as a loan provider but as a partner. It seems that financial services in eve will not be any profitable in the foreseeable future, thus ya'll should think of something else in order to fulfill all isk claims. As for withdrawals freezing - it is quite normal, but on the other hand u have to freeze all salary payments and other payments that will not generate profits. That would be fair. To conclude, I think that it is possible to bring eve bank back to business, but without losses it will not be possible to make. And the last thing, in country where I live it was a case when a big bank had liquidity problems, so the solution they had found was brilliant. The owners of the bank put their personal money generated from other sources into the system. The bank is working now. There are owners of eve bank. They could do the same. Or maybe some additional shares could be issued. But I wonder what discount should be.
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.08.26 08:45:00 - [202] Can you confirm the dates in your posts and reports are correct? I thought the big 275 billion ISK default happened around two months before PP's post (could match your date). Ricdic's theft and RMT happened about 2 DAYS before the above post (no match). What happened to the "Total Loan Interest Earned: 394,065,215,151.50" and "Commission and Fees Earned: 4,218,511,329.63" from your own statistic page? That also adds another 20 billion in "lost" deposit interest payments too. Plus the 157 billion in potential "lost" loans buried in your figures too. -- --
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.08.26 08:51:00 - [203] Also no mention of Ray's RAYBY Bond on your investment sheet - you know, the one that was confused with AATP. (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1124586/page/1#23) You include other investments that completed successfully - consistency as well as transparency. -- --
Mystic darkangel	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:05:00 - [204] because of a couple of people messing it up we "honest" people can not even touch our OWN isk anymore. I think its stupid that our funds get frozen and intrest get taken away!!! So does that mean the salaries stop to? and all the other cost you all make every month??? Probably not. As soon as we can we taking out our isk. Another eve scam has been born!!!!
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:12:00 - [205] Originally by: Marcus Baltar Also no mention of Ray's RAYBY Bond on your investment sheet - you know, the one that was confused with AATP. (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1124586/page/1#23) You include other investments that completed successfully - consistency as well as transparency. If you want to be pedantic, we actually remove shares from the listing if we returned them to their owner. But you're just picking on random discrepancies to make some twisted point. Thanks for the effort in pointing out we're not perfect. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Magnu Stormhawk	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:13:00 - [206] I've been contemplating opening an ebank account recently. Think i'll stick it under the mattress instead... I simply cannot believe that the bank has been operated without frequent detailed financial reporting. I would have expected this to underpin the entire function of the business. And uncollateralised loans? Jesus Christ what have you been doing? At least in RL uncollateralised loans arent completely unsafe when you can kick someones door down and take their TV. Having said that, I think Ray and the Board's approach to a resolution is the only viable solution. Liquidation now would be a mess. Realisable value of the assets would be diminished in a fire sale and more defaults are likely to occur when the debtors know the bank is screwed. If a choice was offered to depositors of what to do with their currently recoverably ISK then some people would choose to pull it out and the bank wouldnt be able to offer the long term solution that it has come up with, which ultimately will get everyone their money back eventually. I think interest should still continue to accrue, at least at a reduced rate, to be paid once the balance sheet has recovered. As has been stated previously, freezing withdrawals is tantamount to theft but at least if interest was accruing it would give people a small degree of comfort. I also dont think the IPO route should be disregarded, with a focus on a debt for equity swap option. Good luck
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:14:00 - [207] Originally by: testirania Actually Ray what that means is that the board have to cough up those 1.2 trillion ISK that are missing right now if all the customers decide to withdraw their ISK...... Thanks, but I got that point. I however live in the real world, not some fantasy universe where everyone walks around with trillions of ISK just in case their fellow bank employee scams. This is the plan for the directorship to recover the ISK. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:16:00 - [208] Originally by: Marcus Baltar Can you confirm the dates in your posts and reports are correct? No, I'm not going to get bogged down in semantics. What ever happened occurred when it did, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the current situation. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:23:00 - [209] Posting in epic thread! I almost put 20bil in EBANK "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:25:00 - [210] Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk I think interest should still continue to accrue, at least at a reduced rate, to be paid once the balance sheet has recovered. As has been stated previously, freezing withdrawals is tantamount to theft but at least if interest was accruing it would give people a small degree of comfort. I also dont think the IPO route should be disregarded, with a focus on a debt for equity swap option. This is a possibility we can look at once a solid monthly income is established. But currently it just means we need to make 36b every month before even beginning to chip away at the deficit. When we're sure we can continue making a stable monthly income we can look at turning interest back on early at a reduced rate. An IPO is out of the question. I'm not stupid enough to attempt one under current circumstances. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
soren tores	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:41:00 - [211] so glad that after dbank went boom i took all my isk out of ebank as well.. dodged that bullet.
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp Legio Mithras	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:58:00 - [212] Sad to see another good idea and service brought low by the unenforceable nature of trust and abuse in a game. Personally I would rather see EBank written off, dissolved, w/ever than see an attempt at recovery. Chalk it up to experience, get over the tears, learn a harsh eve lesson and move on. Lets face it in 2 months max it will only be a matter of occasional discussion. Reputations have been ruined, Athre, Hexx etc and some peoples will come out intact - Ray being about all I can think of. I only ever had 100m in my ebank account which along with it's interest can be written off, added to the pot for someone elses payback etc., [would my position be the same if it was billions in my account - yes it would - but you will have to trust me on that]. o/
SunGod RA Endless Destruction	Posted - 2009.08.26 10:14:00 - [213] Originally by: Clair Bear Here's what I would do. I would spend 400B on buying empire ice. Then invest 100B in producing armageddons and smartbombs to make sure not a single ice miner lives long enough to mine even a single ice cube. Plenty of community minded citizens will volunteer to smartbomb ice miners round the clock for no compensation. Sell the 400B worth of ice for at least 2B to 0.0 dysprosium moon holders a month later and voila! You've fixed both ebank and eve at the same time. !!! i'd invest in that! more IPOs like this plz!!
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.08.26 10:51:00 - [214] Rabble Rabble Rabble! We were promised a free pony, but the new guy found out the old guy never bred any ponies to give us! Quick, burn the new guy before he can breed any ponies for us, so we can revel in righteous indignation about not getting our free pony! Seriously now? Ray's trying to fix it. Shut up and let him. People these days... Signature? What signature?
Saartje Sarel	Posted - 2009.08.26 10:57:00 - [215] Originally by: Keyser Kahn Sad to see another good idea and service brought low by the unenforceable nature of trust and abuse in a game. Just another scam mate. Only a cretin gives his money to another player to 'look after'. See it for what it is..
Magnu Stormhawk	Posted - 2009.08.26 11:21:00 - [216] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Magnu Stormhawk I think interest should still continue to accrue, at least at a reduced rate, to be paid once the balance sheet has recovered. As has been stated previously, freezing withdrawals is tantamount to theft but at least if interest was accruing it would give people a small degree of comfort. I also dont think the IPO route should be disregarded, with a focus on a debt for equity swap option. This is a possibility we can look at once a solid monthly income is established. But currently it just means we need to make 36b every month before even beginning to chip away at the deficit. When we're sure we can continue making a stable monthly income we can look at turning interest back on early at a reduced rate. An IPO is out of the question. I'm not stupid enough to attempt one under current circumstances. Noted, its a (very) risky option. But if you can manage to convert half your creditors into equity with a guaranteed dividend of more than the standard rate of interest (if profits allow), then you're solvent again. Most people are going to write off their deposits in any case so why not recognise that and get the balance sheet straight a lot quicker than it will be by waiting 2 years for income to cover the deficit. Just throwing thoughts around. I understand the course you have chosen.
Leowen Industrial Giants	Posted - 2009.08.26 11:24:00 - [217] "We are bust, we've messed up bad and have probably done so in all the time we've been running, but it was DEFINITELY someone else's fault, someone who isn't here any more. Not our fault, someone else." If there are any directors still on the board which was responsible for this complete lack of oversight, they should have the decency to resign. If not they should be pushed. EBANK was either: - A bank with no clue that it was losing money hand over fist - unforgivable - A bank that knew it was losing money but did nothing about it - unforgivable - A bank that was and/or is lying and that was/is scamming its customer base - unforgivable There should be no way out of this for any members of the board previously in place. Assuming this statement is the final word on EBANK's current status, a fresh board should be installed to try to dig EBANK's way out of this hole. If successful they will gain credibility, if unsuccessful the world will know it wasn't their fault. This is not only the right thing to do, it is the only way EBANK can have a future imo. Not that I have or ever had any money in there, as I've always said I don't trust others with my money for such a pitiful return.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.08.26 11:30:00 - [218] I like the whole, now we dont pay interest to bring up our deficit part. Liek others, I can only wait and hope the funds are released. Luckily my investment didnt come anywhere near what many have
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.08.26 11:47:00 - [219] Originally by: The Slagh That's only cause you and your buds got paid. If you liquidate right now, people lose 70% of their investment. I thought salaries were paid to people who did work, work like stopping stuff like this from happening, which obviously didn't happen. You dont follow financial markets much, do you
Azelle Storm'Eye	Posted - 2009.08.26 11:55:00 - [220] A small thing struck me in your report over shares. FIRD is set at 0 ISK value, and I can understand why, but from what I know the corp has been contacting shareholders and offered to buy back shares atm, and they seem to have contacted all the shareholders ( according to one of the BOD ), has Ebank been contacted ? It isnt much to recoup on that account, but 32bill is afterall 32bill less you need to recoup
Marcus Baltar	Posted - 2009.08.26 11:55:00 - [221] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Marcus Baltar Also no mention of Ray's RAYBY Bond on your investment sheet - you know, the one that was confused with AATP. (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1124586/page/1#23) You include other investments that completed successfully - consistency as well as transparency. If you want to be pedantic, we actually remove shares from the listing if we returned them to their owner. Okay, that was not explained. Originally by: Ray McCormack But you're just picking on random discrepancies to make some twisted point. Thanks for the effort in pointing out we're not perfect. Maybe if you (as in all of EBANK BOD, past and present) had been a little more "pedantic" and had spent some time "picking on random discrepancies" things would not be where they are. Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Marcus Baltar Can you confirm the dates in your posts and reports are correct? No, I'm not going to get bogged down in semantics. What ever happened occurred when it did, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the current situation. To the present situation the dates do not mean a damn. However, I think the dates do/will matter to determine what and where things went wrong, who was to blame and if that blame is justified. I am not trying to pick on individuals, just do not see what the point of having a BOD was if they did not know what was going on. I realise a lot is probably Ricdic's fault, but what did the BOD do to earn those salaries? Just to make you happy Ray, everyone, past and present, that has been involved in EBANK is now tarnished in my eyes. Now to sit back and see which I get back first - my DBANK or EBANK deposits. -- --
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:07:00 - [222] just another question out of curiosity: Is there anything that indicates a spike in withdrawels prior to the freeze? Say from people 'close' to those who knew about it?
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:07:00 - [223] Originally by: Tesal 2. For those who wish to remain invested in EBank, convert all remaining deposits into an IPO, monitored by a 3rd party or several 3rd parties, and pay them out over the next 12 months AND paying the IPO operator a salary. This will allow you to keep existing isk generating operations going. this will also take most of the administrative difficulties out of EBank, and make life tolerable for you. You could take 6 weeks to figure out a restructuring deal. You can do this by taking the top 10 successful IPO issuers and offer them a deal, with remaining isk, BPO and BPC. Haven't looked at the EBANK balance sheet as of yet, but to me this line of thought seems like an idea worth considering. It is commonly known that most ISK-making operations don't scale especially well (both, in terms of profit and required work effort) and those employed by EBANK so far will probably have been selected rather because of low labor-input than because of extremely high profitability (e.g. titan BPOs). The money bound in current EBANK ventures might generate a much larger profit, if it were granted to several smaller enterprises in the form of buying out IPOs (whose operators might be willing to put in a lot more effort per ISK). From the point of view held by EBANK, this would ofc increase risk (as EBANK trusts itself), from the point of view held by current EBANK customers it could very well reduce risk, as in case of an EBANK shutdown, these loans/shares could be transferred to a holding company representing EBANK's customer base. IMHO EBANK would be well advised to seriously consider liquidating some of the current business ventures and using the freed money to aggressively invest in smaller enterprises. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:23:00 - [224] Originally by: Ray McCormack In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP. Fix this. You're trying to rebuild trust while having misleading statements in your communications. CCP did not take action against Ricdic for embezzlement. CCP took action because he was selling ISK. Any current and future director can embezzle to his/hers heart's content without fearing CCP intervention, as long as they don't sell the proceeds. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:27:00 - [225] Quote: I'm sorry that you feel like you had no voice in the decision. Are you actually a customer? The people who hold shares (not own hold) are the Directors. Please take another look at the original OP. It was not an easy decision but it is one that will eventually regain all the isk our customers have entrusted to us. Athre, don't you see you are doing a GREAT disservice to yourself and the community? Why do you think I am so miffed at you guys ATM, even if I don't have but 0.01 ISK at your bank? Because it's tragically wrong to feel "done" at "just" giving back the money. So, you give people back their billion. Whooo hoo! And now what? You killed your future and their most trusted service. You won't serve the community any more. You will be OVER. This is what I find VERY wrong, because the actual money is important but LESS important than the feeling of trust, the "something great and stable and safe in EvE exists" emotion. You see, when a great rockstar dies, his myth remains and his memory becomes almost immortal for their fan. You managed not to die but killed your myth. This is worse than death. Why didn't you recapitalize? Or start "personal" IPOs? Or a sort of chapter 11 return to positive balance public plan? ANYTHING not to kill your years of service? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Brian Kwok	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:28:00 - [226] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Ray McCormack In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP. Fix this. You're trying to rebuild trust while having misleading statements in your communications. CCP did not take action against Ricdic for embezzlement. CCP took action because he was selling ISK. Any current and future director can embezzle to his/hers heart's content without fearing CCP intervention, as long as they don't sell the proceeds. Nothing to fix except for your ability to read and understand information. Isn't it more than obvious that any action taken by CCP was in response to the RMT, which Ray mentioned in that quote. It might be your 5th grade reading level that's keeping you from making the connection.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:33:00 - [227] Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD. I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:34:00 - [228] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Offering to purchase accounts at reduced value to allow immediate liquidity for certain customers is actually a novel idea. Ebank loses nothing, and the seller gets their isk immediately and the purchaser stands to make out like a mint. I'd likely throw 400b easy into such a credit default swap. I think you don't know what a credit default swap is.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:37:00 - [229] Edited by: Kazzac Elentria on 26/08/2009 13:37:03 Originally by: Kalrand I think you don't know what a credit default swap is. Well it technically wouldn't be a CDS, but its about as close as we can call it given the situation. ..closer to creditor selling off an account to a collection agency only just not wrapped up into a security product. But the point still stands. *edited cause I can't speak right this morning
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:37:00 - [230] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD. I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity. It's already being discussed and a system formulated. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:48:00 - [231] Originally by: Brock Nelson Just couple of questions; 1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that. 2. It's known that EBank owns shares of public corporation including Flux Technologies, does EBank plan to hold onto those shares or sell them off at higher than purchase price? 3. Relating to #2, because you guys froze all accounts; customers can't retrieve their isk or earn interest. What's to stop other corporation whose shares are owned by EBank from sending dividends to EBank? I don't have any investment in EBank but if I did, my line of thought would probably be like this "If I can't get my money, why should I send these guys money?" Good luck You bring a great point here, Brock. Whatever their intentions might be, E-bank has effectively stolen a trillion isk, with a promise of "we'll pay it back". I would hold you and any other companies with collateral, securities or other assets to seize 100% blameless to claim or at least freeze those assets against this default, doing no worse than a trusted third party reclaiming loan collateral on a scam or bust IPO/bond. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Brian Kwok	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:57:00 - [232] Originally by: Dzil [ You bring a great point here, Brock. Whatever their intentions might be, E-bank has effectively stolen a trillion isk, with a promise of "we'll pay it back". I would hold you and any other companies with collateral, securities or other assets to seize 100% blameless to claim or at least freeze those assets against this default, doing no worse than a trusted third party reclaiming loan collateral on a scam or bust IPO/bond. Isn't that exactly what Tornsoul does with BMBE? Sure he pays 1% or much less per month for the gobs of isk he has and the investors don't get a say in anything. Would it make you and others feel better if ebank were to completly change to an IPO right now, start paying out less than 1% interest and allow you to sell your "ebank shares" for less than the supposed value? This is a serious questions btw, I'm not trying to be a smartass but if you are ok with that then they should just turn into a BMBE #2 and all will be well again. Maybe this is something they should consider.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:57:00 - [233] Originally by: Brian Kwok Nothing to fix except for your ability to read and understand information. Isn't it more than obvious that any action taken by CCP was in response to the RMT, which Ray mentioned in that quote. It might be your 5th grade reading level that's keeping you from making the connection. It's obvious if you assume a working level knowledge of EVE, EBank, scams, RMT and CCP. If I turn those off I can easily read that CCP took action against him for embezzlement and RMT. Given that this thread is linked from a news post at the EVE login screen, I feel it's an incorrect assumption to make. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Deovina	Posted - 2009.08.26 13:57:00 - [234] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD. I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity. It's already being discussed and a system formulated. I think the best idea would be auctioning of the debt with a minimum of 10% or 15% of the face value. Giving all willing depositors the best deal they can get at the moment. With perhaps a knew auction every 2 or 4 weeks.
Salvo Brunel Clown Punchers Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:02:00 - [235] Ray, You have stated that you won't be asking for repayment of the 75b paid as salary. Have any of those who recieved salaries *offered* to repay it? People paid to process withdrawals or write code may be blameless, but everyone with an oversight role seems to have utterly failed. I think the best policy is to liquidate. At the moment you are saying that *you* will trade with the deposits to get them back to 100% of liabilities. People have good reason to be sceptical that EBank can do a better job of this than they could themsleves. Clearly you should be allowed a grace period to try to understand the exact details of the deficit. Wouldn't it be possible to allow people to withdraw say, 20% of their funds now. Then as the liquidation continues thay can chose to accept a final payout of 30-60% or hold on for full re-opening. As has been mentioned before I think you might end up with quite a few unclaimed / inactive accounts. This could mean you get back to effective solvency quicker than you think. Finally, I really appreciate your honesty and openness.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:04:00 - [236] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Ray, will you bring the discussion of possible equity swaps to the BoD. I have clients that are more than willing to participate to free capital up and trust myself and others to be the purchasers of said equity. It's already being discussed and a system formulated. I'd suggest wrapping up individual accounts into tiers, most people who are going to take advantage of the face value will more than likely be your smaller depositors. Then auctioning those securities off to the highest bidder with the caveat that the purchasers can negotiate or resell them at a later date.
Mining Bunnz Equatorial Industires	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:21:00 - [237] One way to move forward is to create a series of accounts with various "loss rates", and provide access to those account balances as soon as practical. Obviously, this can't be done until the true position is revealed and everyone just has to wait on that to finalise. For example: 10% Recovery Account/0% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is immediately available for withdrawl at 10c/$ for full settlement. 30% Recovery Account/0.5% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (60%?) liquidity at 30c/$ for full settlement. 50% Recovery Account/0.75% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (80%?) liquidity at 50c/$ for full settlement. In addition, you freeze the 3% savings accounts that currently exist and convert them all to standard checking accounts, looking at your balance sheet they are a 7b/mth drain with their additional interest over and above what they'd earn as checking and your long term customers who have these accounts are probably your most tolerant. This single change in this paragraph is nearly 70% of the monthly discrepancy between income/liabilities. Freeze interest payments for a month on all accounts, give people time to determine how long THEY want to wait for a return by transferring their isk to appropriate accounts, and everything that remains in the "sweep", "checking" or "savings" accounts after that get locked into the plan you presented and can either transfer that isk to the reduced payout accounts when they decide to accept a partial return, or wait until your financial footing is stable. Further actions to take, make an additional new account, a new sweep account bearing 0% interest, but continue full banking operations with deposited isk going to this account. You wont get many takers, but it really doesn't impose too much of a burden and keeps the core services you provide, over and above the minimal interest you offer, to function. What these changes allow you to do is very very quickly assess a true position and customer intent and gives you a chance to evolve into a workable bank. You can clean up the balance sheet, write off the liabilities of those customers that dont want to wait and will take the loss immediately for access to isk. The vultures who are otherwise circling to do this themselves dont reap the reward, EBANK does. Those most negative can stuff off right away. Those with faith can show that faith and stay the distance. It seems an appealing way to clean up the mess you inherited Ray. With transparency throughout the process, you can emerge a slimmer, more focused organisation without forcing all customers, regardless of their feelings, to hang around for 12 months crying into threads. I'd be happy to discuss thoughts with yourself, Athre or the board further. PS: In the interests of full disclosure, I am a net BORROWER of isk from ebank and currently retain a near 5b isk deficit across my accounts I believe.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:27:00 - [238] Originally by: Salvo Brunel You have stated that you won't be asking for repayment of the 75b paid as salary. Have any of those who received salaries *offered* to repay it? Yes, some have. I refused their offer. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:40:00 - [239] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Edited by: Kazzac Elentria on 26/08/2009 13:37:03 Originally by: Kalrand I think you don't know what a credit default swap is. Well it technically wouldn't be a CDS, but its about as close as we can call it given the situation. ..closer to creditor selling off an account to a collection agency only just not wrapped up into a security product. But the point still stands. *edited cause I can't speak right this morning "Factoring" is what you were looking for here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance)
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:47:00 - [240] Originally by: Kalrand "Factoring" is what you were looking for here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factoring_(finance) I didn't want to call it that, since you'd be hard pressed to call a savings account, accounts receivable. Though I guess though since they both go on the books as liabilities
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:48:00 - [241] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Salvo Brunel You have stated that you won't be asking for repayment of the 75b paid as salary. Have any of those who received salaries *offered* to repay it? Yes, some have. I refused their offer. This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly? Ebank is in dire straits due to gross mismanagement/negligence of various ebank employees. Some of those employees would like to return salaries paid to expedite returning ebank's good standing. You're refusing to serve as the natural medium to allow this to happen? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Redbad Minmatar Mean Corp Mean Coalition	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:49:00 - [242] I get the idea when reading this thread that it is such a chaos in the reporting area that you are making it very easy for loan takers to say: "You can have your ISK back if I can get my researched BPO's back that Ricdic probably ran of with." Hope you can turn it around though, good luck McCormack.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:51:00 - [243] Originally by: Dzil This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly? Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:54:00 - [244] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Dzil This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly? Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls. "Here's some free money for depositors!" "Oh no. We wouldn't want them getting any of that."
Vilgan i'Lakin	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:00:00 - [245] Kind of a bummer for active players that they are getting treated the same as people who dropped their isk into ebank before taking a 1, 2, 3 year or infinite break from eve.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:08:00 - [246] Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin Kind of a bummer for active players that they are getting treated the same as people who dropped their isk into ebank before taking a 1, 2, 3 year or infinite break from eve. Honestly, when the whole Ricdic thing broke, I thought this would be what would save Ebank. The ginormous amount of zombie capitol stuffed into the bank by inactive accounts. I honestly think they should see just who's active and wants their isk back. They might not be liquid enough to do it instantly, but I'd put a decent sized bet on that they could match demand by selling assets.
flakeys wassabi mayhem	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:14:00 - [247] Originally by: soren tores so glad that after dbank went boom i took all my isk out of ebank as well.. dodged that bullet. Makes 2 of us , a 3 bille loss i can cope with a 12 bille loss now that would have HURT.
Emywn Vanya Caldari The Darkness Within Event Horizon.	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:24:00 - [248] Assuming I ever get my money out this is the end of my secondary market dealings. Theres just no point. Breaking even with all the time spent is just not worth it. ----------------------- The answer is 42
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:28:00 - [249] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Dzil This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly? Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls. I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction. That said, I don't think your point of view sucks donkey balls. I welcome the diversity of skills, experience and ambition that come together in EVE, yours included. Needless to say, there are many important decisions in ebank's future at this point. To better understand how those decisions were made will become a roadmap to success or failure, that either way I think MD will gain something from. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Azelle Storm'Eye	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:33:00 - [250] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Dzil This is what I'm hearing, do I understand you correctly? Correct. Go on, ask me to explain why so you can turn around and tell me how my point of view sucks donkey balls. Well the directors who want to give back the money could always just deposit thir payment to their accounts thus giving it back without you having a say in it :)
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:40:00 - [251] Originally by: Dzil I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction. Originally by: Azelle Storm'Eye Well the directors who want to give back the money could always just deposit thir payment to their accounts thus giving it back without you having a say in it :) Exactly, and it would be anonymous and therefore not lead to animosity and finger-pointing in future. It also allows those who can't return their salary or shouldn't to avoid being called on it. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:42:00 - [252] Originally by: Dzil I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction. Care to elaborate further on why and in which direction you would take it? Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:57:00 - [253] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Dzil I'll admit, I've had time to think on this decision, and while it still has no direct impact on my finances, I think you're taking the bank in the wrong direction. Care to elaborate further on why and in which direction you would take it? I'd give customers an option to liquidate, even if at 30, 50, 20, whatever % aligns with the present solvency of the bank. Ricdic stole some money, and members of the board of directors made some mistakes. Admitted, and time to move on. If you liquidate those that want out, it has a lot of advantages: -They get closure, and can move on from trolling your thread -It means a smaller overall volume of isk to recover. It's easier to earn higher margins on smaller volumes of isk; one of the main reasons Hexxx was interested in shrinking the bank before he resigned. To me the perception you're creating is attempting to force yourself to be the hero/martyr. You're here to save the day, you're going to make sure every customer gets their isk back fairly no matter what! But I think even if you pull it off, by forcing people down this path you aren't going to earn any credit for yourself or the bank you represent. Give your customers the opportunity to find their own way out of this fiasco, if they choose. Maintain your commitment to the ones that want to stick with it. That would be my recommendation. But as I respect it is your time that you choose to pour into this business, which is probably much different than what you originally thought you signed up for, I truly do wish you luck and success in whichever road you go. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
DJ Geist	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:13:00 - [254] The decision to freeze up all EBANK accounts while you give yourselves a year to try to make it right is blatantly a measure that places value on the viability of the EBANK institution over the interests on the EBANK customers/depositors. EBANK customers have made it clear that they want other options, including options where they cut their losses and don't wait around for EBANK to try to fix itself. I suppose you are to be applauded for being "transparent" about the fact that you are doing this, but that just means that transparently doing this is more laudable than sneakily/covertly doing this: don't conflate this to mean that you now have the moral high ground and are justified in doing this. My little nephew is in the process of learning a similar hard lesson: at about 4 years old he now understands that telling the truth is more valuable than lying/covering things up. However he has yet to grasp the more complicated thing that telling the truth/revealing all does not get him completely out of trouble, even if the truth-telling has independent value. As far as "market elites", serious "MD role players", and the "sanctity" of this forum goes - it's all a joke. A lot of us silenly observe your delusions of grandeur, trying to distinguish yourselves as some kind of megaplayers with a higher calling, and in the end it turns out you're incompetent, crooks, or both. The failure of EBANK, which supposedly was the most well-organized and safeguarded "bank" in eve history, just shows that this game is nothing other than players pew-pewing each other for isk, or trying to convince other players how awesome they are such that isk should be trusted to them. There are zero "market elites" in this game, just people who talk a good talk and know how to make themselves sound reliable with the right kind of language, letterhead, and logos. From now on until the game has run its course: - if a character comes up with any system under which they claim your isk should be trusted to them, it is reasonable to assume it is a SCAM - if a character appeals to his/her knowledge of 'real life' ways of accumulating assets, and uses these 'credentials' to try to secure your isk, it is reasonable to assume it is a SCAM - if a character appeals to other characters who claim to have faith in the original character's knowledge/abilities/reputation, where the original character is trying to secure your isk, it is reasonable to assume it is a multi-character SCAM - if a character tries to belittle another character's knowledge/abilities/reputation as a reason for why the supposedly more novice character should hand over any amount of isk, it is reasonable to assume this is a psychological manipulation that is part of a SCAM - if a character tries to valorize some of their own traits as a reason to hold on to your isk for an even longer period of time ( for example, that they are being forthcoming and 'transparent' with information ), it is reasonable to assume that this character is trying to buy more time as part of a SCAM This game has zero accountability for its characters (no FDIC for "banks", characters can be resold, etc), and players generally get tired of "grinding" in the game and accumulating isk with the various methods offered by the in-game mechanics. That is why these SCAMS will continue until the game is over.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:20:00 - [255] Originally by: Dzil I'd give customers an option to liquidate, even if at 30, 50, 20, whatever % aligns with the present solvency of the bank. Ricdic stole some money, and members of the board of directors made some mistakes. Admitted, and time to move on. We're going to allow the market to provide that opportunity. As stated before we're working on a plan, which will be presented shortly. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
VCBee2888 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:27:00 - [256] I tip my hat to you, this is a really nice scam.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:15:00 - [257] Quote: I tip my hat to you, this is a really nice scam. Sadly, Ricdic organized the scam, who remained are precise and honest accountants (hopefully). They delude themselves that giving everything back, ruining their life running for a year after money to return, will make anyone appreciate the effort and eventually trust the bank again. I don't think so, and with me you see an half dozen of posters saying the same, and Ray & co accurately dodging the observation- Sadly for them, they can ignore me and the others, and hide their head under 1 foot of sand, but this won't change the result, which is completely not in their hands since when they goofed so irreparabily hard. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:29:00 - [258] Thieving btards no matter how you try and spin it. Oh well another long & draw out scam that enters into EVE folklore. MOOCIFER** Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer who has been a part of EVE a lot longer than you.
Cearain	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:37:00 - [259] Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2009 17:37:25 "In early March this year, as has been revealed previously, our then current CEO Ricdic embezzled funds for the purpose of RMT to the amount of 250b ISK. He was immediately dismissed and action was taken against him by CCP. He was also responsible, along with board members, for over-extending credit to a long standing loan customer. This loan, for an overall amount of 275b, was soon defaulted û leaving the bank with little recourse to recover the funds. A 525b ISK loss should have been easy for a bank with 2 trillion in deposits and a year and a half of profit generation behind it..." Do you guys really think that? Over 1/4 of your deposits were vulnerable to 2 people saying "Yeah, well I think Ill just keep this money instead of giving it back." Guys here is a clue. In real life you can sue people when they default on their debts and attach assets and accounts ect. In eve you can't. I'm truly baffled by the stupidity. Well not ebanks stupidity, hey their employees pocketed 75 billion of those deposits, so they probably made out just fine. But those who depositted the money... well....
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:41:00 - [260] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Block Ukx Ray, I agree with Varo, EBANK Directors are liable for the missing ISK. EBANK should find a way to pay back its debt to its customers. Agreed, see the plan as outlined in the OP. Ray, Do you still believe Ricdic was just an idiot that got caught in RMT? Consider the following: 1) Ricdic was involved in the EIB scandal as a ôtellerö. (Bank scam) 2) EBANK was created by Ricdic. (Another Bank scam) 3) Deposits made to EBANK Ricdic were never audited. 4) EBANK was never audited. (Until you û Ray). I believe Ricdic had this all planned out, and I wouldnÆt be surprised if a large number of the BankÆs account belong to him. Think about it. It would have been very easy for him to fake the accounts, so latter on he still has access to non-existent ISK. You are basically working your aaaà to provide him with a comfortable living. I donÆt understand why you are getting involved with EBANK when most of the people that are responsible for this situation are no longer in EBANK. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Nemi Lethal Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:42:00 - [261] Originally by: Mining Bunnz One way to move forward is to create a series of accounts with various "loss rates", and provide access to those account balances as soon as practical. Obviously, this can't be done until the true position is revealed and everyone just has to wait on that to finalise. For example: 10% Recovery Account/0% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is immediately available for withdrawl at 10c/$ for full settlement. 30% Recovery Account/0.5% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (60%?) liquidity at 30c/$ for full settlement. 50% Recovery Account/0.75% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (80%?) liquidity at 50c/$ for full settlement. In addition, you freeze the 3% savings accounts that currently exist and convert them all to standard checking accounts, looking at your balance sheet they are a 7b/mth drain with their additional interest over and above what they'd earn as checking and your long term customers who have these accounts are probably your most tolerant. This single change in this paragraph is nearly 70% of the monthly discrepancy between income/liabilities. Freeze interest payments for a month on all accounts, give people time to determine how long THEY want to wait for a return by transferring their isk to appropriate accounts, and everything that remains in the "sweep", "checking" or "savings" accounts after that get locked into the plan you presented and can either transfer that isk to the reduced payout accounts when they decide to accept a partial return, or wait until your financial footing is stable. Further actions to take, make an additional new account, a new sweep account bearing 0% interest, but continue full banking operations with deposited isk going to this account. You wont get many takers, but it really doesn't impose too much of a burden and keeps the core services you provide, over and above the minimal interest you offer, to function. What these changes allow you to do is very very quickly assess a true position and customer intent and gives you a chance to evolve into a workable bank. You can clean up the balance sheet, write off the liabilities of those customers that dont want to wait and will take the loss immediately for access to isk. The vultures who are otherwise circling to do this themselves dont reap the reward, EBANK does. Those most negative can stuff off right away. Those with faith can show that faith and stay the distance. It seems an appealing way to clean up the mess you inherited Ray. With transparency throughout the process, you can emerge a slimmer, more focused organisation without forcing all customers, regardless of their feelings, to hang around for 12 months crying into threads. I'd be happy to discuss thoughts with yourself, Athre or the board further. PS: In the interests of full disclosure, I am a net BORROWER of isk from ebank and currently retain a near 5b isk deficit across my accounts I believe. I say you hire this guy right now
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:52:00 - [262] Originally by: Block Ukx Do you still believe Ricdic was just an idiot that got caught in RMT? I do. Ricdic is a simpleton. Originally by: Block Ukx I donÆt understand why you are getting involved with EBANK when most of the people that are responsible for this situation are no longer in EBANK. I enjoy a challenge. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:56:00 - [263] Ray, You are basically desiring to start a solid, transparant and profitable venture, but doing so with a trillion in the red already. While I have no doubt this could be an excellent challenge for you (and perhaps the other directors), I don't believe it will be serving the customer at this point. E-bank's name has suffered some pretty heavy damage too, so trying to save that is pretty pointless as well. Only thing you can save is the fun the directors have from 'being bankers'. You can weigh that against the fun others will have with a portion of their isk returned soon rather than most of it later. As an aside: financially, freezing accounts for at least a year is a wise decision, since I estimate about 20% of customers will quit eve within that year, so you would make plenty isk from that alone. I would at least suggest you work quitting players into your financial projections. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:00:00 - [264] Originally by: Merdaneth You can weigh that against the fun others will have with a portion of their isk returned soon rather than most of it later. Yup, agreed. The board raised these points before the OP was made too. But I want the market to drive it with our oversight. Anyone interested in trading in accounts should contact myself to start formulating proposals. Originally by: Merdaneth As an aside: financially, freezing accounts for at least a year is a wise decision, since I estimate about 20% of customers will quit eve within that year, so you would make plenty isk from that alone. I would at least suggest you work quitting players into your financial projections. The only way we can account for players that leave is if they delete their accounts, and even then we'd have to search for them manually in-game. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:03:00 - [265] Originally by: Galal Dax Edited by: Galal Dax on 26/08/2009 01:50:50 Originally by: Brock Nelson Originally by: KaarBaak Slight topic skew....does anyone know how this is affecting DBank? Can't remember if they're still functioning? If they are, just wondering if this is causing a bank run over there? You are probably 2 months out of date as DBank folded Brock, if anyone offers to create an F-Bank - please pod them.... You're a bit late. Fury bank was already created, flourished, then vanished into the ether with billions of investors ISK and no word since.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:04:00 - [266] Originally by: Ray McCormack The only way we can account for players that leave is if they delete their accounts, and even then we'd have to search for them manually in-game. You're joking right? Flag any account thats seen no activity from the user (logging in to check their account, deposits, etc) in the last six months. Those people forgot they have an account/left eve. Free money! Hooray! You're solvent again!
Wengy Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:07:00 - [267] Originally by: Nemi Lethal Originally by: Mining Bunnz One way to move forward is to create a series of accounts with various "loss rates", and provide access to those account balances as soon as practical. Obviously, this can't be done until the true position is revealed and everyone just has to wait on that to finalise. For example: 10% Recovery Account/0% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is immediately available for withdrawl at 10c/$ for full settlement. 30% Recovery Account/0.5% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (60%?) liquidity at 30c/$ for full settlement. 50% Recovery Account/0.75% Interest - ISK transferred to this account is available for withdrawl at (80%?) liquidity at 50c/$ for full settlement. In addition, you freeze the 3% savings accounts that currently exist and convert them all to standard checking accounts, looking at your balance sheet they are a 7b/mth drain with their additional interest over and above what they'd earn as checking and your long term customers who have these accounts are probably your most tolerant. This single change in this paragraph is nearly 70% of the monthly discrepancy between income/liabilities. Freeze interest payments for a month on all accounts, give people time to determine how long THEY want to wait for a return by transferring their isk to appropriate accounts, and everything that remains in the "sweep", "checking" or "savings" accounts after that get locked into the plan you presented and can either transfer that isk to the reduced payout accounts when they decide to accept a partial return, or wait until your financial footing is stable. Further actions to take, make an additional new account, a new sweep account bearing 0% interest, but continue full banking operations with deposited isk going to this account. You wont get many takers, but it really doesn't impose too much of a burden and keeps the core services you provide, over and above the minimal interest you offer, to function. What these changes allow you to do is very very quickly assess a true position and customer intent and gives you a chance to evolve into a workable bank. You can clean up the balance sheet, write off the liabilities of those customers that dont want to wait and will take the loss immediately for access to isk. The vultures who are otherwise circling to do this themselves dont reap the reward, EBANK does. Those most negative can stuff off right away. Those with faith can show that faith and stay the distance. It seems an appealing way to clean up the mess you inherited Ray. With transparency throughout the process, you can emerge a slimmer, more focused organisation without forcing all customers, regardless of their feelings, to hang around for 12 months crying into threads. I'd be happy to discuss thoughts with yourself, Athre or the board further. PS: In the interests of full disclosure, I am a net BORROWER of isk from ebank and currently retain a near 5b isk deficit across my accounts I believe. I say you hire this guy right now I second that, this is a plan that makes sense. It's got something for everyone, people get a choice, rather than this forced course of action Ray's proposing. I've been invested in Ebank for a total of 5-days before this happened, I'm stunned that they kept accepting deposits even though they must have known they could never make good on their promises. So by allowing people a choice, you will be giving people like me something to think about, as right now Ray McCormack and everyone else at Ebank, past and present, all smell equally bad to me.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:07:00 - [268] Originally by: Ulstan You're a bit late. Fury bank was already created, flourished, then vanished into the ether with billions of investors ISK and no word since. So GBank really is next, eh?
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:12:00 - [269] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Block Ukx I donÆt understand why you are getting involved with EBANK when most of the people that are responsible for this situation are no longer in EBANK. I enjoy a challenge. How long are you planning to stay in EBANK? Previously, you did a great job running BMBE but you left after a few months. IÆm concern you will leave EBANK before accounts are repaid. I would prefer you be in charge of liquidating EBANK. I really think you are better off starting your own Bank, buying off EBANK assets, and liquidating EBANK. Why not try that route? BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:22:00 - [270] Originally by: Block Ukx How long are you planning to stay in EBANK? Previously, you did a great job running BMBE but you left after a few months. IÆm concern you will leave EBANK before accounts are repaid. I would prefer you be in charge of liquidating EBANK. I ran the BMBE for over a year. I'll stay (less that fateful bus drags me off into the nethers of EVE infamy) until accounts are repaid, at least. Originally by: Block Ukx I really think you are better off starting your own Bank, buying off EBANK assets, and liquidating EBANK. Why not try that route? u mad? Open a bank in this climate? Let's see where the market takes us with the account purchases, we'll get a good indication of what customers want from that. I've made one large decision this month, I won't make another just yet. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:31:00 - [271] Originally by: Ray McCormack ...u mad? Open a bank in this climate? Point taken, but I think you are mad too. I really hate the idea of freezing accounts. It places an unnecessary burden on the economy. One possible alternative is to issue IOUÆs. Have you considered this alternative? BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:32:00 - [272] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Ray McCormack One possible alternative is to issue IOUÆs. Have you considered this alternative? That would have us reducing our access to working capital. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Jazz Scotch	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:47:00 - [273] How long until I can get my ISK? This is a service that should be providing in-game by None Player Corps. How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System? When I started playing I was surprised that there was not one provide by the game, you know, so there would be some sort of control over collection of pass due accounts, and protection from asset theft. Even a stock market based on the None Player Corps in the game is missing. I cannot access my ISK that I have been saving for over a year. I donÆt know how long this will take to get my ISK back. I donÆt know if I wish to continue playing EVE even. This is a big blow to me, a game changing event. My ISK goes, my membership goes. No more EVE for me. IÆm only one account and CCP will not miss me. I just canÆt see spending another year, trying to recoup the loss of my savings, Time for a new game.
Ulric Zorn	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:52:00 - [274] I don't know Ray but give him credit for sticking through this. But, this whole matter needs to be treated more like a bankruptcy than a bank failure. Because of that, temporarily freezing accounts is a good idea ONLY for the short term. This should be done until a plan for distribution of the remaining assets is considered. Bottomline -- I'd place faith in Ray but EBank itself is an abortion. It is insolvent, bankrupt, whatever you want to call it. It needs to be shutdown and then if Ray or anyone else wants to move forward with a whole transparency-based operation, then they can do so and ANYONE that gets involved with them will have a better idea of what they are in for. If EBank limps along and at some point unfreezes accounts, the rush for withdrawls will decimate the bank. Cut the cord and then work on a business plan that will return trust to those who are cleaning up the mess of the real crooks.
Secondskin	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:57:00 - [275] Originally by: Jazz Scotch How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System? Your wallet is good everywhere and can neither be blown up nor stolen. Unlike real life there is no risk in flying around with large sums of cash. Deposits are always direct, withdrawls are instant, and transfers between players (or markets) happen in real time. Aside from "free money" from interest, or the ability to take out an uncollatoralized loan that no one can ever enforce recovery of, what use does a bank truly provide? Individual assets are protected. Central assets can be exploited. This has always been true.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.26 18:58:00 - [276] Regards markets setting the rate. I have spoken to a few people about this, and I know Kazzac and a few other are interested. The issues I see: 1. What is exact value of saleable assets? 2. If we (group of players), purchase a large block of accounts at a rate we agree with account holders, do we then: a. Have to wait 1 year for the EBANK turnaround or b. negotiate with the board to liquidate those accounts for a percentage we agree with EBANK. If EBANK is willing to entertain the idea of an account buyout, let MD know what some of the conditions would be and maybe we can put a plan together. If the restrictions are long term, meaning I have to leave the money in the account for a year, then the buyout would be under 10%. If it was immediate (or short time frame) then the buyouts would be higher with a graduated scale, starting at 20%, and increase depending on level of recovery.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:11:00 - [277] Originally by: Jazz Scotch How long until I can get my ISK? This is a service that should be providing in-game by None Player Corps. How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System? When I started playing I was surprised that there was not one provide by the game, you know, so there would be some sort of control over collection of pass due accounts, and protection from asset theft. Even a stock market based on the None Player Corps in the game is missing. I cannot access my ISK that I have been saving for over a year. I donÆt know how long this will take to get my ISK back. I donÆt know if I wish to continue playing EVE even. This is a big blow to me, a game changing event. My ISK goes, my membership goes. No more EVE for me. IÆm only one account and CCP will not miss me. I just canÆt see spending another year, trying to recoup the loss of my savings, Time for a new game. You blaim CCP for your own mistake.It has been said a thousand times on Md and logic sence would also tell you this: INVEST WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOOSE. If this faillure made you loose all your isk then YOU have made a big mistake.I am sorry to bring this to you and you probably will disagree but i think most investors use this key factor.You sound like someone who ragequits after a goon has suicided on his hulk.
Mkiaki Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:12:00 - [278] Just one thing to say here. Owned
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:13:00 - [279] Originally by: Mkiaki Just one thing to say here. Owned No headshot is more the word i was looking at ...
Jazz Scotch	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:17:00 - [280] Originally by: Secondskin Originally by: Jazz Scotch How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System? Your wallet is good everywhere and can neither be blown up nor stolen. Unlike real life there is no risk in flying around with large sums of cash. Deposits are always direct, withdrawls are instant, and transfers between players (or markets) happen in real time. Aside from "free money" from interest, or the ability to take out an uncollatoralized loan that no one can ever enforce recovery of, what use does a bank truly provide? Individual assets are protected. Central assets can be exploited. This has always been true. Yes, keeping your ISK in your pocket is great. No interest, and No investments. So know my Membership fees ($14.95) will go in the bank and get interest. Good deal.
Nemi Lethal Gallente DarkStar Armada One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:17:00 - [281] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Mkiaki Just one thing to say here. Owned No headshot is more the word i was looking at ... Flawless Victory!
CompTrekkie	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:19:00 - [282] Edited by: CompTrekkie on 26/08/2009 19:20:53 I want my money! (Reference to Family Guy Episode with Stewie and Brian) But seriously I would really like my 598Mil. I was planning on withdrawing it as soon as it hit the 600Mil mark. Just needed a little longer What timing I was so close to making it out clean. I would be willing to settle with 400Mil. I am not sure the options yet I guess time will tell. I have a feeling this may be to much to hope for.
Jazz Scotch	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:19:00 - [283] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Jazz Scotch How long until I can get my ISK? This is a service that should be providing in-game by None Player Corps. How does CCP forget to put-in a Banking System? When I started playing I was surprised that there was not one provide by the game, you know, so there would be some sort of control over collection of pass due accounts, and protection from asset theft. Even a stock market based on the None Player Corps in the game is missing. I cannot access my ISK that I have been saving for over a year. I donÆt know how long this will take to get my ISK back. I donÆt know if I wish to continue playing EVE even. This is a big blow to me, a game changing event. My ISK goes, my membership goes. No more EVE for me. IÆm only one account and CCP will not miss me. I just canÆt see spending another year, trying to recoup the loss of my savings, Time for a new game. You blaim CCP for your own mistake.It has been said a thousand times on Md and logic sence would also tell you this: INVEST WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOOSE. If this faillure made you loose all your isk then YOU have made a big mistake.I am sorry to bring this to you and you probably will disagree but i think most investors use this key factor.You sound like someone who ragequits after a goon has suicided on his hulk. CCP presented it as a advertisement in the begging of the game. As if they backed it, or have part of it.
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:34:00 - [284] I feel, at this point, I must say, as an EBANK customer with a fair amount of ISK currently frozen, I still support this bank and hope for a speedy recovery. I as much as anyone understand that accidents happen (though this one is pretty up there). I would also like to state, for the record, that if I were given the opportunity to withdraw even part of my ISK in the current situation... I wouldn't. It is not ISK I am currently using. That's why it was in EBANK in the first place. I am not immediately in need of the ISK. I simply am distressed that one day the doors were open, and the next day they'd been welded shut. No venture anywhere can truly succeed without trust. I'm willing to give my trust to the idea of EBANK. I feel that the staff member's I've gotten to know are not out to leave me with the bill, and I honestly feel they will work to fix this problem. Obviously, the idea of EBANK is different from the implementation of that idea, as this incident has indicated. I would like to see the idea and the implementation grow closer in the coming months. You have my support, and you of course have my ISK. But you would have had both even if you hadn't shut the door. Good luck with the recovery, I look forward to good news. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:36:00 - [285] Originally by: Tesal So EBank was ~~possibly~~ a ponzi scheme from the start.? Fixed that for you. Quote: How is this possible without other members in leadership knowing? Blinding flash of insight in 3... Quote: Did the former leadership know? Quote: How do you know it was Ricdic and not other members of EBank? Do you have any evidence that shows where the isk went from these other isk generating ventures and who was involved? Can EBank recover from this? Is EBank insolvent, and if so, why not simply liquidate and pay the proceeds to investors rather than dragging this out for 6 months or a year? When will remaining cash be returned to depositors? I just can't believe that 1) it's gone on so long and 2) people STILL want to believe in this scheme. Killboard-Declarations of War Podcast
ShadowMaiden Amarr Divine Radiance	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:45:00 - [286] ITT - we try to sound like financial experts about pretend money
Victoria Akmea Gallente Taishite Kami	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:49:00 - [287] Edited by: Victoria Akmea on 26/08/2009 19:54:09 I just have two questions. One, wouldn't it be possible that instead of freezing all interest rates, you continue to deal out the interest at say, twice the rate of the account, but keep it locked down, and when you finally have enough to pay out completely, open the accounts again with that extra interest in it? It may take a little longer to get there completely, maybe an extra month or two, but people won't be sitting here thinking "Hey, my 30bn in my account isn't doing anything..." You know, recoup for time on the accounts? And two, for those with existing loans....Would we be able to give you our collateral to liquidate, and just pay the extra interest that has generated? Like, for mine, my balance on the loan is 322M (with the current interest accrued), and the collateral was about 310M. I let you keep my collateral and liquidate it, say you sell it for 305M. I then pay the extra isk left out of wallet, another 17M? I know for me, and maybe for others with loans out, it'd be easier to just let you liquidate the collateral as well as pay out any remaining fees rather than pay back the entire loan. Edit : Or, you could just, at the end, for all the people who stayed with EBANK for the year or so, upgrade their accounts to 3% accounts. Means it only takes them another year to regain the lost interest, and if they stay longer than that, they get extra profit. Just an idea. --TL;DR-- Would you keep the withdrawals locked but initiate a 3% or so interest, paid out at the end when the books are balanced, and can we just let you sell off the collateral on loans and pay out any remaining debt?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:53:00 - [288] Originally by: Victoria Akmea Would you keep the withdrawals locked but initiate a 3% or so interest, paid out at the end when the books are balanced No. Originally by: Victoria Akmeaand can we just let you sell off the collateral on loans and pay out any remaining debt?[/quote Yes, contact your loan officer to arrange this. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:15:00 - [289] Originally by: Azelle Storm'Eye A small thing struck me in your report over shares. FIRD is set at 0 ISK value, and I can understand why, but from what I know the corp has been contacting shareholders and offered to buy back shares atm, and they seem to have contacted all the shareholders ( according to one of the BOD ), has Ebank been contacted ? It isnt much to recoup on that account, but 32bill is afterall 32bill less you need to recoup We were told the little investors would be paid out 1st. Nothing has been forthcoming from this corporation attempting to clean up Quadria's mess.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:27:00 - [290] Originally by: Block Ukx Consider the following: 1) Ricdic was involved in the EIB scandal as a ôtellerö. (Bank scam) 2) EBANK was created by Ricdic. (Another Bank scam) 3) Deposits made to EBANK Ricdic were never audited. 4) EBANK was never audited. (Until you û Ray). I think you give Ric too much credit. He got blind sided by EIB Attempted to show it could be done Completely failed at accounting for his own doings in EBANK and flatly refused to do accounting in his and PP's venture. That being said, I think you give him too much credit for planning this from the onset. Ric knew Selene was working on an audit (50% done from what we were told) and then Selene quit when I rejected his all or nothing dictatorship plan he shared with me. Little did I know what state the bank really was in at that time. What it amounted to was a Receivership type plan. Funny, I think we are there Montague.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:28:00 - [291] The more I think about this, the more I see this really needing a Good Bank/Bad Bank solution. Good Bank 1) New Deposits, and new capitol from a few big investors (initially thinking the BoD members). Perhaps a short term bond could be issued. 2) Run it on the current website, and use your existing infrastructure, which from all accounts is top notch. 3)Run the bank openly with full transparency this time. Bad Bank 1) Issue 1,900,000 in game shares from an alt corp, and distribute one for every million ISK someone has in Ebank right now. 2) Distribute the balance of the shares (it won't be exactly even due to rounding, but there will be some left over) to the new bank so it opens with a positive balance sheet. 3) Send out the issued shares to the record holder characters. 4) Pay one big opening dividend of the free cash in the current ebank. 5) Over the next few months, sell assets and loans to either people on MD, or the Good Bank (as it accumulates deposits), and pay dividends out to the share holders. At some point, auction the legacy assets to someone (or the good bank buys them out) 6) Close the corporation. I'd be willing to advise with this, without asking for any access or roles that require trust. What does this do? Make the existing balances salable and give the people with stuck isk liquidity. Keep ebank's operations as a going concern. Let people feel better about depositing ISK into the Good Bank, knowing they aren't burdened by Ricdic's mess.
Ivanna Nuke Daralux	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:33:00 - [292] It is really simple what has happened, the owners of EBank basically have made an alliance of turnips to take over your isk, this is now funding the floating cows and buying them tech 2 milk cannons to fight the spacial cats on stilts.
Cearain	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:33:00 - [293] I think you should close the doors in a somewhat orderly fashion. If your assets are currently tied up in investments you should do it by making a series of payments. Lets say you have assets to pay everyone 50% of their money.(I don't know what the actual numbers are so the numbers and time frames are somewhat arbitrary) But lets further assume that only half of that is liquid (ie. 25%). I would announce that all depositors must come in and cash 20% of their assets within the next 9 months. Ok after nine months many people will not have cashed out. They may have left eve, whatever. After the 9 months you should have also collected on your investments. The remaining money will then go into a pool. People will then be able to collect another percent of their balance from that. Announce that they must withdraw that percent in 2 months. Then just keep letting people withdraw every 2 months until they are either paid in full or the money runs out. People who left eve will be out of luck I suppose but what can you do? You will hopefully be able to repay many people who trusted you much of what they put in. Trying to cling to this dead baby is not going to help anyone. No one is going to come in and bail out any operation that was handled this poorly. Everyone will simply rush the bank in one year you might as well not hold all that money that long.
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:35:00 - [294] I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it seems to have been overlooked. Anyhow, a couple of recent manipulation lessons to some hub traders has freed up alot more capital that has now been earmarked for reaqusitioning Ihatalo Cartel stock were possible. [IHAFS] is now in a position to, if the Ebank BOD so desires, repurchase ALL 'Ihatalo Research and Development' shares you currently hold for 50,000 ISK each per unit (Ebank bought them at 27,000 ISK - so very good return - sell em :P ). In addition, we can also buy back 6 of your [IRD] 7.5% bonds for full value if you wish. So, including the shares buyback that would be a cool 20b for Ebank to play with or release in limited withdrawals, whatever. :P Let me know asap as we have other lucrative projects this can goto and I don't want to be sitting around waiting Regards Ulecese ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
Pubsey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:36:00 - [295] Grats on an epic scam. Kind of depressing that people keep falling for it time and time again - "no this time they're legit! look at all the big backers"
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:37:00 - [296] Originally by: Ulecese I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it seems to have been overlooked. Anyhow, a couple of recent manipulation lessons to some hub traders has freed up alot more capital that has now been earmarked for reaqusitioning Ihatalo Cartel stock were possible. [IHAFS] is now in a position to, if the Ebank BOD so desires, repurchase ALL 'Ihatalo Research and Development' shares you currently hold for 50,000 ISK each per unit (Ebank bought them at 27,000 ISK - so very good return - sell em :P ). In addition, we can also buy back 6 of your [IRD] 7.5% bonds for full value if you wish. So, including the shares buyback that would be a cool 20b for Ebank to play with or release in limited withdrawals, whatever. :P Let me know asap as we have other lucrative projects this can goto and I don't want to be sitting around waiting Regards Ulecese Take the man up on the shares, but those bonds are worth more.
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:45:00 - [297] forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also. ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:48:00 - [298] Originally by: Ulecese forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also. I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil.
Seyah Tebut Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:50:00 - [299] Given that I have been a detractor of Ebank when they've messed up in the past and was subsequently and harshly attacked for my criticisms, I can only feel like this is vindication of a sort. While I would be justified in screaming "I was right" in this post, I am not a lesser man so I will just focus on the present situation. Ebank screwed up bad. While I appreciate Ray posting all this info, I think that you and the board have pretty much f'd up everything that you had going with Ebank. I'm glad that I listened to instinct and pulled out everything I had on my two characters when the Ricdic scam broke, because that was all my isk I had in this game. You woulda screwed me over for a freakin' year because of inept management of the bank which should not have been allowed to have gone on this long. I do not blame current management as they're trying to clean up the mess created by prior management, but it seems like they're getting all the blame unfortunately. How could Ebank have thought themselves above external audits of their operations? Everything handled internally, so of course any results/audits done could be 'fixed' (and probably were I have little doubt). Enron anyone? To say nothing of them offering to do audits of various IPO's, which would then give them inside knowledge of it would be profitable to invest in, and invest heavily in. Could it be that these investments were intended to dump into Ebank's coffers to help cover interest payments? New deposits as well? The decision to keep your guys' deposits going but blocking withdrawals and interest payments stinks, it really does guys. You're basically playing off of any of your good reputation left saying that people will be able to withdraw their isk within a year, they just have to have faith. Meanwhile, no interest payments will be made on isk held, no withdrawals will be honored, yet you still continue to allow money to be deposited to people's accounts. What's to stop you from just collapsing the bank and keeping all the contents of peoples' accounts? Nothing. And because of that little fact, that is why I got paranoid and withdrew all my isk after the Ricdic scam (which in retrospect was a good decision), because I anticipated that an account freeze was coming, but I had NO idea that it was going to be a year long one. Whatever happened to your statements about how you always had enough isk to cover withdrawals, or that you could easily liquidate everything to cover what was in peoples' accounts? While the Ricdic scam hurt, I don't think it could've hurt that badly (of this I of course could be wrong). Then there is the misreporting of various amounts of isk; your payouts to salary for example. That used to be only in the hundreds of millions, now it's billions? How did that go up so far so fast? Whatever the future is for Ebank (and while I wish you well and the best, and do hope to see you fully recover from this), I doubt that you'll be able to recover from a blow this serious, because after this, frankly, I don't think you'll have enough people trusting you to make running operations worth it and the bank will collapse either shortly after the freeze is over, or far before that as deposits dry up. Afterall, why would people want to deposit their isk to you without a promise of being able to retrieve it at will?
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:53:00 - [300] Originally by: Seyah Tebut :words: The problem wasn't just Ricdic carting off with a big pile of money, it was the garbage loans he was handing out for years.
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.26 20:53:00 - [301] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Ulecese forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also. I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil. How have you came to that assessment on it's value, care to share? ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
GenXS	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:21:00 - [302] Shocking.. so basicly 600B+ went missing from the books. Or someone slipped on the 0 a few times on a payout ehe.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:21:00 - [303] Originally by: Ulecese forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also. Catch me on MSN if you can, if not I'll be online after 12:30am USA Eastern.
Yer Ma Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:42:00 - [304] As in RL but just more magnified yet again in internet spaceship game two sayings ring true... 1) If it looks too good to be true it invariably is. 2) A polished turd is still ultimately just a turd.
TraderAlt 3104989531	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:47:00 - [305] I have two candid questions. 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? I feel that this will largely speak to the honesty and sense of fairness of the board starting from this point.
Mkiaki Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:48:00 - [306] Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 I have two candid questions. 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? I feel that this will largely speak to the honesty and sense of fairness of the board starting from this point. We all know they've profited hugely from it.
Sansa Skyburner	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:58:00 - [307] I suggest EBANK invests in 9 Raven's or CNR's and put the board members to work running level 4's for 8 or so hours a day. If you are serious about returning the money you borrowed from the depositors I don't see a problem with the lot of you putting a little elbow grease into it. Sansa
Seyah Tebut Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.26 21:59:00 - [308] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Seyah Tebut :words: The problem wasn't just Ricdic carting off with a big pile of money, it was the garbage loans he was handing out for years. If that's true, then how the hell would the BOD have missed gaping holes like that?
Ith Ratheos Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:01:00 - [309] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Tesal stuff Thanks for your opinions, but they're not valid in this context. The deficit is genuine, we cannot pull the plug as we don't have enough ISK to pay everyone out. Once we do, we'll open withdrawals and let the public make their own decisions. I think a good number of people at this point would be willing to accept a return of 50 cents on the dollar. The risk of waiting this out is that more will be stolen and potentially nothing returned.
Alphrya Inter-Region Trade And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:16:00 - [310] where is hexx? * Buying your Junk! EVEmail me or post in my thread! *
Leviathan Taylor	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:20:00 - [311] I'm sorry to hear that problems are again arising with the banks that are within eve. I have invested in both Ebank and Dbank and when running i've had no problems with the service that has been provided. If the banking industry is going to survive in the world then we need to look at setting up some sort of group that will monitor and watch each banks progress and to audit them as well. The people involved within this group would not be able to have any ties with either bank. Another option would be for CCP to set-up a small team that could step in to resolve problems. I'm sure they would be able to track all the movements of isk and assets. But this would need to be discussed between the player base and CCP. Maybe the CSM could raise this upon their next meeting. I hope that the industry can recover and i would like to offer my assistance to any of the banks if they require it. I have applied for position before but have not heard anything back from either of them. So please consider me if you decide to take on anymore staff of directors. You can contact me in game to discuss further. Regards Leviathan Taylor
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:24:00 - [312] Originally by: Ith Ratheos I think a good number of people at this point would be willing to accept a return of 50 cents on the dollar. The risk of waiting this out is that more will be stolen and potentially nothing returned. Since EBANK is basically stating that the current deposits will grow up to 2t at a growth rate of roughly 8% a month it really depends. The basic math on the risk analysis is few MD investments are worth the risk. It does amuse me that for all the propaganda and statements from the EBANK group this does look surprisingly like either a Ponzi or a very badly invested operation. I just don't see how Ray can reasonably expect 8% a month compounded growth for assets worth over 1t. I will note that when DBANK hit about 300b it was pointed out how incredibly hard it was for a company to offer rates above 5%. It bothers me that the BoD of EBANK has made this decision without consulting the owners of the accounts. I understand the situation but I think a lot of players would feel they could do better in practice than EBANK is promising in theory. - Lex
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:27:00 - [313] Originally by: Ulecese Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Ulecese forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also. I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil. How have you came to that assessment on it's value, care to share? Ray has confidence in its ability to continue as a going concern, so I'm discounted any credit impairment I'd normally add. Ray's numbers have it tossing off 7 million isk a month. I'm not going to argue with his assessment of their ability to do that. He appears to put a 4ish% discount rate on anything that he likes. I'm not going to be the one who tells him it's too low. So yea. then it boils down to 7,000,000/0.04 = 175Mil. Personally I'd offer in the neighborhood of 59 million, but I also think the MD valuations are insane right now. You people pay way too much for way too little.
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:31:00 - [314] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Ulecese Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Ulecese forgot to mention, I'll take all your 'Gordon Freeman Tech III' at current value also. I valued that holding (under what I could back out of Ebank's method, which I disagree with) at 175,000,000 isk, not 133 Mil. How have you came to that assessment on it's value, care to share? Ray has confidence in its ability to continue as a going concern, so I'm discounted any credit impairment I'd normally add. Ray's numbers have it tossing off 7 million isk a month. I'm not going to argue with his assessment of their ability to do that. He appears to put a 4ish% discount rate on anything that he likes. I'm not going to be the one who tells him it's too low. So yea. then it boils down to 7,000,000/0.04 = 175Mil. Personally I'd offer in the neighborhood of 59 million, but I also think the MD valuations are insane right now. You people pay way too much for way too little. I'm pretty sure they are worth closer to the 5-6m mark based on my information, we will see anyway :) ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:32:00 - [315] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Originally by: Ith Ratheos I think a good number of people at this point would be willing to accept a return of 50 cents on the dollar. The risk of waiting this out is that more will be stolen and potentially nothing returned. Since EBANK is basically stating that the current deposits will grow up to 2t at a growth rate of roughly 8% a month it really depends. The basic math on the risk analysis is few MD investments are worth the risk. It does amuse me that for all the propaganda and statements from the EBANK group this does look surprisingly like either a Ponzi or a very badly invested operation. I just don't see how Ray can reasonably expect 8% a month compounded growth for assets worth over 1t. I will note that when DBANK hit about 300b it was pointed out how incredibly hard it was for a company to offer rates above 5%. It bothers me that the BoD of EBANK has made this decision without consulting the owners of the accounts. I understand the situation but I think a lot of players would feel they could do better in practice than EBANK is promising in theory. - Lex Their only way out is to pull the plug on this and start over. I still like my plan for that.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:39:00 - [316] Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 26/08/2009 22:40:17 Originally by: Kalrand Their only way out is to pull the plug on this and start over. I still like my plan for that. The saddest part of this whole thing is that what EBANK has done is what mutual funds in really bad shape have been known to do. It is a sign of insolvency. It also basically says 'You have no say in this, it isn't really your ISK anymore'. What always made EBANK a 'bank' instead of an 'IPO' was really the ability to pull ISK out quickly. What Ray is doing is basically converting EBANK into the structure of an IPO and promising a payout in the end. - Lex
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:43:00 - [317] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 26/08/2009 22:40:17 Originally by: Kalrand Their only way out is to pull the plug on this and start over. I still like my plan for that. The saddest part of this whole thing is that what EBANK has done is what mutual funds in really bad shape have been known to do. It is a sign of insolvency. It also basically says 'You have no say in this, it isn't really your ISK anymore'. What always made EBANK a 'bank' instead of an 'IPO' was really the ability to pull ISK out quickly. What Ray is doing is basically converting EBANK into the structure of an IPO and promising a payout in the end. - Lex You mean hedge funds, but yea. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with your money right now.
tun	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:45:00 - [318] Wow this is a long thread, wonder how many people complaining on this thread are actual customers of Ebank. If you tied up all your isks in Ebank well then i feel sorry for you. Ebank is like any other investment in Eve, it succeeds and you get rewarded, if it fails you get screwd. If Ebank was honestly going to scam you now I doubt they would have posted anything about them trying to freeze accounts and get fund back up, instead they would have just vanished. Its not like there asking for more isks to be invested in the bank, but they are freezing accounts, so they can get everything back to normal. Oh and before I get flamed for being optomistic, yes I have multiple accounts in Ebank. Any how I'll take my chances and use this as a opportunity to make more isks, by offering 25% on frozen ebank acounts. Eve Mail me if your interested.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:50:00 - [319] Originally by: Kalrand You mean hedge funds, but yea. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with your money right now. My bad on the hedge funds part. I suppose that is what bothers me. Ray has made a unilateral decision. Investors in EBANK (and that is what they have always been) were promised returns and a structure that justified those low returns (easy access). Now Ray and the BoD has changed the rules of the game without warning. This is better than scamming and running with it but it still an issue. - Lex
Gabriel Rosencrantz	Posted - 2009.08.26 22:52:00 - [320] Hey check it out, even the forum threads are summer reruns from the spring!
Brian Kwok	Posted - 2009.08.26 23:14:00 - [321] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Originally by: Kalrand You mean hedge funds, but yea. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with your money right now. My bad on the hedge funds part. I suppose that is what bothers me. Ray has made a unilateral decision. Investors in EBANK (and that is what they have always been) were promised returns and a structure that justified those low returns (easy access). Now Ray and the BoD has changed the rules of the game without warning. This is better than scamming and running with it but it still an issue. - Lex Sup Lex, nice to see the success stories from DBANK have joined in. Now its a party.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.26 23:28:00 - [322] I doubt the turnaround could be short term. In the best situation in the world, EBANK has 900B in assets. IF, they could generate 40B a month (need a miracle) it would still take 25 months to get back to 2T. Even if the money is compounded, they have to get so much capital to work (loans, businesses) the result is diminishing return. No matter which way you look at it, they have to earn 1,200B ISK off 800B. Take years. As soon as the audits are final, the only clear choice will be some sort of liquidation or rebase all the accounts to a lower percentage. At that point there might be a viable bank, but most people will withdraw their ISK, so EBANK will fold either way. The responsibility of this lies with the BOD (original) and the Chairman especially. The original EBANK had a BOD to provide stroong oversight to protect against 1 person running off. We now find out that the BOD had NO idea what was going on. Hexx has to take a massive hit for this. I do appreciate what he has done for MD, but he did not do his job as chairman and control his people (Ric). The BOD are going to be involved with the biggest SCAM ever in EVE. I don't see how he has the credibility to get his insurance scheme off the ground now. Most of the original board members of EBANK have trashed their rep with this outcome. I feel sorry for Ray and Omber who have parachuted in to try to sort the mess out. I do have more respect for Shar Tegral, because he tried to institute reporting and some standards last year and was forced to quit. Looks like he was right.
Ivanna Nuke Daralux	Posted - 2009.08.26 23:51:00 - [323] Large quantities of ownage in this thread.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.26 23:57:00 - [324] Quote: where is hexx? Quote: Hexx has to take a massive hit for this Here, the answer. He sniffed the air and even without clear accounting he understood "by skin" that things weren't smelling pretty. So he might have left before the "perfume" touched him. Like "get out with style and keep a low profile". The sequence of the people going in and out of EBank in the last months could be truly random. But could also be not so random. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.26 23:59:00 - [325] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Brock Nelson Just couple of questions; 1. If a business going under, the first step would be to eliminate liabilities. First thing that came to mind with wiping out the 75b owing to employee salaries. Was that option considered? I can imagine that some people would outright reject that. 2. It's known that EBank owns shares of public corporation including Flux Technologies, does EBank plan to hold onto those shares or sell them off at higher than purchase price? 3. Relating to #2, because you guys froze all accounts; customers can't retrieve their isk or earn interest. What's to stop other corporation whose shares are owned by EBank from sending dividends to EBank? I don't have any investment in EBank but if I did, my line of thought would probably be like this "If I can't get my money, why should I send these guys money?" Good luck You bring a great point here, Brock. Whatever their intentions might be, E-bank has effectively stolen a trillion isk, with a promise of "we'll pay it back". I would hold you and any other companies with collateral, securities or other assets to seize 100% blameless to claim or at least freeze those assets against this default, doing no worse than a trusted third party reclaiming loan collateral on a scam or bust IPO/bond. It may be a good point but I haven't seen any other public corporation (other than those that are offering buyback) comment on the current situation. For now, I'm staying on the side of the fence and pay dividends out regardless of the shareholder's situation. Frankly, the whole EBank debacle hasn't really affected me much.
Betty Rhage	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:09:00 - [326] I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors". I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public. - Betty
Landea Kimimi	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:15:00 - [327] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Block Ukx [That would have us reducing our access to working capital. I will make the startling, astounding, incredible offer to bail you out by buying EBank, it's assets, and none of its liabilities for..... 1 MILLION ISK Think it over, get back to me.
Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:31:00 - [328] Originally by: Betty Rhage I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors". I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public. This thread just keeps on delivering. By the truckload. Killboard-Declarations of War Podcast
Rellik B00n Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:41:00 - [329] business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009." ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!! cruiser & rig BPOs LDS kb
Renarri	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:45:00 - [330] Originally by: Betty Rhage I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors". I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public. How about destroying one of them to show the rest that your serious and it would make a lot of us feel better too.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:45:00 - [331] Originally by: Rellik B00n business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009." ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!! If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here. Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!!
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.08.27 00:47:00 - [332] Aren't you an MD Elite?
Betty Rhage	Posted - 2009.08.27 01:06:00 - [333] Originally by: Renarri Originally by: Betty Rhage I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors". I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public. How about destroying one of them to show the rest that your serious and it would make a lot of us feel better too. If I don't get a response, sure. - Betty
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.27 01:16:00 - [334] Originally by: Brock Nelson Aren't you an MD Elite? if I am its not by choice. I just speak my mind, and run my business for my investors
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 01:17:00 - [335] Originally by: cosmoray If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here. Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!! Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently.
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.08.27 01:34:00 - [336] Edited by: Jin Nib on 27/08/2009 01:34:20 Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here. Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!! Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently. Take your time... -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.27 02:14:00 - [337] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Rellik B00n business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009." ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!! If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here. Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!! Why stop at MD, join me and we can destroy all of EvE!
Vilgan i'Lakin	Posted - 2009.08.27 02:38:00 - [338] I don't get what advantage there is in trying to get back to even before paying everyone off. Okay, lets say you DO bust your ass for a year and pay everyone back. What will happen? EBank's reputation will still suck. Maybe people will breathe a sigh of relief of YAY I FINALLY GET MY MONEY. Maybe. Those who are still playing at that point anyway. Nobody is going to think great things about a crew who accomplishes.... returning exactly what was invested a year later. It seems like Ebank leadership might finally not suck. Please use this time to liquidate stuff in an organized fashion over the next few months, figure out who the inactives are, and pay us back 70% or whatever it comes out to.
Crovax Secundus MuffDivers Reserve	Posted - 2009.08.27 02:45:00 - [339] Originally by: Betty Rhage Originally by: Renarri Originally by: Betty Rhage I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors". I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public. How about destroying one of them to show the rest that your serious and it would make a lot of us feel better too. If I don't get a response, sure. Just do it. Less talk, more action. If you gonna threaten people, i rather you just do it.
Ocularus Dothumiter Amarr Lyonesse. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.27 02:53:00 - [340] All the more reason to keep your own isk Please resize your signature within the maximum allowed resolution of 400 x 120 pixels and the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. -Weatherman
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 03:23:00 - [341] Originally by: Kalrand Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently. Somehow, when we Goons are arguably the most trustworthy around, something terribly, terribly wrong has happened. PS, I'm not one of the three referenced above (I assume).
F90OEX F9X Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.08.27 03:47:00 - [342] Edited by: F90OEX on 27/08/2009 03:48:18 Originally by: cosmoray I doubt the turnaround could be short term. In the best situation in the world, EBANK has 900B in assets. IF, they could generate 40B a month (need a miracle) it would still take 25 months to get back to 2T. Even if the money is compounded, they have to get so much capital to work (loans, businesses) the result is diminishing return. No matter which way you look at it, they have to earn 1,200B ISK off 800B. Take years. No it does not, I was able to turn 875bil into 3.4t in less then 2years without great effort. Few months ago while I was on TS with some other interesting traders Ray's name came up, even though I don't know him directly it was agreed he is one of the few known people who think outside the box and know how to turn around things like this. It's because of that, I have decided to help out some of the people who have a large amount of Isk frozen within there Eve bank account and have other loans out with myself as mentioned in page 8-9. It's not a large amount (200bil). Personally I think Eve bank got to big for there own good, and not enough checks and balance's and this is the result. Tbh Ray will probably never know the full truth of what went on, only try clean up the mess that's in front of him.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.27 03:54:00 - [343] Originally by: Brian Kwok Sup Lex, nice to see the success stories from DBANK have joined in. Now its a party. I wasn't sure if I hoped or feared that people remembered my time with DBANK. What a f*ing mess that was. It became obvious after a couple of months that everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING, ran through Manalapan. In that whole time I talked with him RL over Vent exactly once. There were no immediate red flags but eventually I began to wonder. The biggest problem was that the whole system (and I mean all banks) made no sense. You borrow billions of ISK and owe tons of money. But why would you bother to borrow in the first place? If what Manalapan claimed about his trading skills was true then he didn't need any ISK. He could have generated sufficient wealth for himself without paying 10% a month to a crowd of players. There were no real individuals that were safe to loan money to. The reason people invested in the banks at low interest was because the other investments were too risky. How was DBANK (or EBANK) going to make money doing that? The answer was fairly simple. They would become generate money doing exactly what all the other players did, but on a larger scale. And that was the point where I stared to call bullst. The glory of running an online bank was fairly nonexistent. It is a lot of work and not a lot of respect. Any player who can manage 100b in ISK effectively can generate more than enough personal wealth to do whatever they wanted. It made absolutely no sense. And that started raising red flags. Even if Manalapan had been the most communicative guy in the world he was working overtime to pay other people using money he didn't need. After all, if he could generate 1b in ISK per day by himself he hardly needed to be paying 10% to somebody else. So after DBANK got scammed I knew it was time to throw in the towel. Not only was the liquidity situation almost certainly bad I had no idea that kind of money was going to one player anyhow. I was supposed to be involved in the risk management side of things and had no clue. I had better things to do with my life. This whole EBANK thing doesn't surprise me at all. Ricdic's reputation was sustained with smoke & mirrors by previous directors when it was fairly clear to most he was more of a salesman than any kind of genius. It didn't take that much parsing of what was being said to figure that out. As much as I admire Hexxx he often seems to operate in the land of theoretical ideas. A good example is his insurance model. It sounds so good on paper but any real mathematical analysis will show that such a system is just waiting for one sufficiently good scam to make it crumble. There are more than a few RL examples of that kind of thing and there are even fewer methods of enforcement online. I admire such ideas but I question the business model. The same was true of EBANK. You don't need a bank to store your ISK. That is the primary function of banks for most people. There is really no sense in investing at 2% a month since the expectation on such an investment is surely (but not almost surely) negative. The idea that you can hand your money to somebody else and expect them to go make money for you is nice in theory. But it fails the smell test. With a few specific exceptions (mostly high risk large industrial projects) anybody who can actually use the money you are loaning them efficiently doesn't need your money in the first place. Certainly not billions of ISK. So goes the grand experiment. By next year the lesson will likely be forgotten and this will start all over again. Maybe I will try to start my own bank just to see who is silly enough to buy into it at 2%. - Lex
species2143	Posted - 2009.08.27 04:06:00 - [344] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 27/08/2009 03:56:48 Originally by: Brian Kwok Sup Lex, nice to see the success stories from DBANK have joined in. Now its a party. rabble rabble rabble - Lex Cool story bro...
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.27 04:20:00 - [345] Originally by: F90OEX Edited by: F90OEX on 27/08/2009 03:48:18 Originally by: cosmoray I doubt the turnaround could be short term. In the best situation in the world, EBANK has 900B in assets. IF, they could generate 40B a month (need a miracle) it would still take 25 months to get back to 2T. Even if the money is compounded, they have to get so much capital to work (loans, businesses) the result is diminishing return. No matter which way you look at it, they have to earn 1,200B ISK off 800B. Take years. No it does not, I was able to turn 875bil into 3.4t in less then 2years without great effort. Few months ago while I was on TS with some other interesting traders Ray's name came up, even though I don't know him directly it was agreed he is one of the few known people who think outside the box and know how to turn around things like this. It's because of that, I have decided to help out some of the people who have a large amount of Isk frozen within there Eve bank account and have other loans out with myself as mentioned in page 8-9. It's not a large amount (200bil). Personally I think Eve bank got to big for there own good, and not enough checks and balance's and this is the result. Tbh Ray will probably never know the full truth of what went on, only try clean up the mess that's in front of him. You might one of the most successful players in Eve (NAV), congrats. The 2 year time frame was probably 06/07 - 08/09. A lot of profits probably came from some good T2 BPO's. After invention the profitability of a lot of T2 BPO's has plummeted. I very much doubt someone could make 3T in 2 years now, with invention. I bet you must of had a few ISK printing press BPO's before invention (one or more of Hulk, Invuln II, HAC, CS, best ammo, LAR II, Expanded cargohold II, etc...) I also admit that Ray is very smart, and I like his business and reporting standards. I think this time it will be too much work for 0 reward.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 04:30:00 - [346] Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: Kalrand Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently. Take your time... My investors got paid. And I even warned of Ebank. Here's where. MD didn't fund me, the goons did.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 04:32:00 - [347] Originally by: Rotnac Originally by: Kalrand Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently. Somehow, when we Goons are arguably the most trustworthy around, something terribly, terribly wrong has happened. PS, I'm not one of the three referenced above (I assume). Don't worry, you're not. corsetwo and sophie diagneau first, then me second. (spelling?)
Kitchie Gallente Vikramaditya	Posted - 2009.08.27 04:45:00 - [348] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Lots of stuff A lot of what Lexander says about DBANK is true but hopefully not the end of the story. Manalapan is not a scammer and was never interested in the ISK in itself. The challenge for people like Man is to run a Bank successfully. None of us could ever do it in RL and Eve has got to be one of the few games where it's possible. The big difference between RL and Eve is in RL, a bank can be too big to fail, in Eve it's the opposite, a bank becomes too big to survive. Because loans are not a realistic income stream for Eve banks (repayment unenforcable), trading becomes the principal money generating activity. A few billion - ok, but once it starts getting up to the DBANK levels of 600 billion - how on earth do you trade that much ISK profitably? As Lexander stated, this was 100% in Manalapan's hands in DBANK and burnout from the stress had been apparent for a while with the website failure being the final nail in the coffin. However, Manalapan has returned and discussions are ongoing on how to get DBANK up and running again. According to Manalapan (no independent confirmation), a large portion of depositors ISK is still intact, though there are some large loans of which the status is unknown at the moment. Exactly how large a deficit DBANK has is still being calculated. A run on any bank, after incidences like these, leaves insufficient funds in the bank to generate the revenue to cover the shortfalls and with no central bank or lender of last resort, limiting customers access to deposits is unavoidable. Personally, I believe that all depositors in EBANK and, hopefully, DBANK will get their ISK back eventually. Although Ricdic was a thief, both banks came unstuck due to management failures, not outright dishonesty. And now we have two more banks in Eve, Eve Central Reserve and Ihatalo. It will be interesting to see what lessons they've learned....
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.27 05:27:00 - [349] Originally by: Betty Rhage If I don't get a response, sure. I look forward to your information. On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that. We're also well aware of the monumental task ahead of us. As someone has indicated 8% compounded for a year on this quantity of ISK is quite a mission. But nothing is set in stone, we're open to changing the conditions set in the OP and will implement any suggestions we feel are sound and of benefit to both customers and the bank. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.08.27 07:59:00 - [350] Originally by: Kitchie The big difference between RL and Eve is in RL, a bank can be too big to fail, in Eve it's the opposite, a bank becomes too big to survive. There is no difference between the two. A bank that is too big to fail is a failure simply due to it holding more money than it should, and, thus, being able to wield too much power. The slogan 'too big to fail' was invented to bail out failures that shouldn't have existed in the first place. Originally by: Kitchie Because loans are not a realistic income stream for Eve banks (repayment unenforcable) Ever heard of secure loans with collateral? Originally by: Kitchie A run on any bank, after incidences like these, leaves insufficient funds in the bank to generate the revenue to cover the shortfalls and with no central bank or lender of last resort, limiting customers access to deposits is unavoidable. And what do you think is going to happen when EBank has once again being restarted? Originally by: Kitchie Personally, I believe that all depositors in EBANK and, hopefully, DBANK will get their ISK back eventually. Although Ricdic was a thief, both banks came unstuck due to management failures, not outright dishonesty. 500 Billion in theft and intentional dead loans don't make dishonesty Originally by: Kitchie And now we have two more banks in Eve, Eve Central Reserve and Ihatalo. It will be interesting to see what lessons they've learned.... Nothing, most likely. Unless they stay small to decrease the need to make massive profits. But, as has been said before, money is better off in your own wallet doing nothing than running, an eventual, 100% risk of being lost to you.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 08:35:00 - [351] Quote: I don't know him directly it was agreed he is one of the few known people who think outside the box and know how to turn around things like this. It's because of that, I have decided to help out some of the people who have a large amount of Isk frozen within there Eve bank account and have other loans out with myself as mentioned in page 8-9. It's not a large amount (200bil). The matter is: assumed he can turn the situation around and actually refund every bank customer, what good will do after such a year long freeze? Vertical drop of accounts the day they re-open withdrawals sounds like the most probable outcome. The bank would succesfully keep its word about "never an EBANK customer lost an ISK" but from this to imagine a sizable amount of customers staying with them is a bit over-optimistic. Why didn't you offer to hedge or to consolidate EBANK before this turd happened? If they had liquidity patched they could slowly steer back to positive balance and no one would notice, same result but no heavy risk of people running off after getting their ISK back like today's situation will lead to. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Dranakolys Gallente Theurgy	Posted - 2009.08.27 08:46:00 - [352] So why are incompetent fools like Hexxx and Athre still involved? Whether you like it or not, they are directly responsible for this mess. Ricdic might have been the architect of this disaster, but Hexxx and co were there every step of the way supporting him, and did so for a very very long time. You can't blame this mess on Ricdic and Ricdic alone. He had a lot of help. They are either as dishonest as Ricdic was (conveniently there is no way to know what the hell was going on), or they are just incredibly stupid. Either way, they should be nowhere near a management position ever again. The last thing EBank needs is their continued "contribution". It worked so well last time, right? Why should anyone trust in EBank when the same people that let this happen in this first place are still involved? I don't envy your position, Ray. At least there is one person on the EBank board now with a little more than cotton balls for brains.
Kitchie Gallente Vikramaditya	Posted - 2009.08.27 09:03:00 - [353] Originally by: Super Whopper Responses Can't really disagree with any of your responses though I hope that last is not true and sadly, people needing loans often do not have the collateral, or need the items themselves. Although I admire Ray's honesty and in the real world, that would have needed to be done, I can't help wondering whether it would have been better to keep the deficit under wraps. No causing panic, no mass withdrawals and quietly work in the background to rebuild the capital/funds. Nobody need ever have known unless something else caused a run on the bank.....
Mining Bunnz Equatorial Industires	Posted - 2009.08.27 09:58:00 - [354] Originally by: Dranakolys So why are incompetent fools like Hexxx and Athre still involved?... Why is Athre's name listed there? Seriously, she was a teller with them for a while and instrumental in delivering isk to their customers. Once the ricdic incident hit, she was a great choice. Ray as chairman through this process is absolutely the single best person I could imagine to even go close to pulling this off. As to Hexxx, the question that has to be asked is how much of this did he know or suspect prior to stepping down? This was his baby as much as it was Ricdic's. He was the founding chairman, and unlike others involved, has real world experience in this sort of stuff. Oversight and reporting that was this sloppy is a failure on his part, and the founding board members. People that came on later, or departed midstream due to an inability to change these practices, certainly dont benefit from this failure, but they also shouldn't be held to account as much as those original board members who put this shonky pony in front of the cart to start with. Ray, I have an ISK-making operation that may need a caretaker for a few months, Athre knows what it is in overview and I'd be happy to talk to you about it. Returns around 10-15%/mth mostly passive on about 45b. Hit me up ingame or authorise Athre to do so. (Caretaker needed because I believe its holiday time for me and a 3 month trip to the US means 3 months away from Eve!).
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.27 10:04:00 - [355] hexxx wasnt aware of it, he was just there as a placebo, a front, he resigned along time ago, if you read the MD you would know, he only came back from time to time, to do some damage control! only reason he didnt officially resign was because he knew what drama it would create. cut him some slack, he is after all the father of MD. Caleb is his Wife, and Shar is their bastard child.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 10:06:00 - [356] I'd also leave Athre out of the flames. She's a kind person (even if I think she hates me now ) and never stepped down doing the thankless job with competence. In a world (universe in EvE case) of generals with no soldiers, she'd do the thick of the menial tasks. As such she's also the one who I'd give her pay for the past, because unlike the others she did what she had to do. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Keyser Kahn Stellar-Parallax Corp Legio Mithras	Posted - 2009.08.27 10:06:00 - [357] Originally by: Ji Sama he is after all the father of MD. Caleb is his Wife, and Shar is their bastard child. Talk about disturbing imagery - that almost put me off my coffee, almost o/
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.08.27 10:31:00 - [358] Originally by: Ray McCormack It is possible the bank has been running at a deficit since its inception û we have no evidence to disprove this. What is certain is that this was allowed to happen by the Board. This is basically the definition of a Ponzi scheme.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.27 10:42:00 - [359] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Ray McCormack It is possible the bank has been running at a deficit since its inception û we have no evidence to disprove this. What is certain is that this was allowed to happen by the Board. This is basically the definition of a Ponzi scheme. noes you used teh forbidden word...
Betty Rhage	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:16:00 - [360] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Betty Rhage If I don't get a response, sure. I look forward to your information. On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that. Its nice to know my threat carried some weight and your willing to give some of the money back... but that is not good enough for me. Either contact me in game within 24 hours and give me back all of my initial principle, or I start talking about things I should not. - Betty
Ivanna Nuke Daralux	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:18:00 - [361] Most cowbell has sunken to the eastern ribbon.
Lord Apocrypha	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:27:00 - [362] Close shop and give the isk back to those who own it. You guys dont deserve to say open. A full 18+ months of lies in how many posts? Claiming you were elite. Now "f"bank claims its in the peoples interest for them to keep their money. If you think you can make more isk over the next year than the real owner you are sadly mistaken. This from group that, "probably never made a cent since day 1". Its another grab for cash. A hope that more of the investors may not be playing eve in a years time. If you add up all the losses, add up all the interest ever payed out by this "bank" it still doesn't add up to the sum of the total isk that was given to them by the players. Calling a duck a duck.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:40:00 - [363] Originally by: Kitchie Although I admire Ray's honesty and in the real world, that would have needed to be done, I can't help wondering whether it would have been better to keep the deficit under wraps. No causing panic, no mass withdrawals and quietly work in the background to rebuild the capital/funds. Nobody need ever have known unless something else caused a run on the bank..... Sorry for the bitterness but the so called 'elite' can't help themselves but disappoint these forums with their arrogance and failures. Well done to them. I didn't mean to take my bitterness out on you, sorry about that.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:31:00 - [364] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: Kalrand Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently. Take your time... My investors got paid. And I even warned of Ebank. Here's where. MD didn't fund me, the goons did. Yes Kal, but paying back corpmates or alliance mates is different from paying back investors who's only relationship with you is their trust and investment. Not paying back your alliance mates could cost you your place in a major alliance. Not paying back some guy in MD would likely be seen by your peer group as laughable. With audits, you could prove that money was borrowed, isk was generated, and money was paid back. It proves you have the capabilities to generate isk. But it brings you no closer to being trustworthy in the eyes of the regular here. To be fair, that may not be such a bad thing. More and more, we see the trust laid out here betrayed because there's no real repricussions for defaulting a loan. I'm beginning to feel more and more only 0.0 territory holding alliances can underwrite a loan without collateral, where a creditor can extract a real consequence should financial obligations not be met. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Shoten Kishi	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:40:00 - [365] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: Kalrand To be fair, that may not be such a bad thing. More and more, we see the trust laid out here betrayed because there's no real repricussions for defaulting a loan. I'm beginning to feel more and more only 0.0 territory holding alliances can underwrite a loan without collateral, where a creditor can extract a real consequence should financial obligations not be met. Assuming you have the financial means to hire a merc corp, or military force within your corp / alliance to extract said 'consequence', and yes of course lets not forget they have to be willing to go and fight to get back at the individuals who pulled a fast one on you. What about the individual investor who is not inside of a large 0.0 alliance, or doesn't go to 0.0 period, how would this benefit them at all?
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:55:00 - [366] Quote: Assuming you have the financial means to hire a merc corp, or military force within your corp / alliance to extract said 'consequence', and yes of course lets not forget they have to be willing to go and fight to get back at the individuals who pulled a fast one on you. What about the individual investor who is not inside of a large 0.0 alliance, or doesn't go to 0.0 period, how would this benefit them at all? If you don't have the financial means to go after your loans, you are loaning out too much money. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:57:00 - [367] Originally by: Dzil Yes Kal, but paying back corpmates or alliance mates is different from paying back investors who's only relationship with you is their trust and investment. Not paying back your alliance mates could cost you your place in a major alliance. Not paying back some guy in MD would likely be seen by your peer group as laughable. With audits, you could prove that money was borrowed, isk was generated, and money was paid back. It proves you have the capabilities to generate isk. But it brings you no closer to being trustworthy in the eyes of the regular here. To be fair, that may not be such a bad thing. More and more, we see the trust laid out here betrayed because there's no real repricussions for defaulting a loan. I'm beginning to feel more and more only 0.0 territory holding alliances can underwrite a loan without collateral, where a creditor can extract a real consequence should financial obligations not be met. I really don't think that without an in game mechanic to dissolve an alliance for an unpaid loan, that alliances will ever be able to borrow unsecured funds from anyone other than members and allies. If Goonswarm defaulted on a loan, are you going to hire mercs to take over Delve? Didn't think so... What a 0.0 alliance has, that Highsec lacks, is an entity that polices its members. An alliance can kick you out and pod you. An alliance can blow up your towers. An alliance can lock you out of the stations your stuff is in. An alliance can throw out a member corp that ****es it off enough. But who would police an alliance? No one. Which is just like individuals in empire. What that means, is that yea, it is different between corp and alliance mates. But don't think for a second that I personally knew even half of the people who loaned me isk. It's more than just an esprit de corps kind of thing, that's a reflection of the safety inherent in the transaction. Remember, Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:58:00 - [368] Originally by: Dzil Quote: Assuming you have the financial means to hire a merc corp, or military force within your corp / alliance to extract said 'consequence', and yes of course lets not forget they have to be willing to go and fight to get back at the individuals who pulled a fast one on you. What about the individual investor who is not inside of a large 0.0 alliance, or doesn't go to 0.0 period, how would this benefit them at all? If you don't have the financial means to go after your loans, you are loaning out too much money. It means you loaned money to someone you didn't have any recourse with. I would think the record for 100% collateralized loans in High Sec must be pretty good.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:00:00 - [369] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Rellik B00n business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009." ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!! If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here. Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!! Good thing then that the MD forum was moved a while back otherwise it would be quite empty in here ....
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:04:00 - [370] Originally by: Kalrand Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys. true, its called world of warcraft. but what does that have to do with anything.
Remus Kurgan Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:26:00 - [371] Originally by: Betty Rhage Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Betty Rhage If I don't get a response, sure. I look forward to your information. On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that. Its nice to know my threat carried some weight and your willing to give some of the money back... but that is not good enough for me. Either contact me in game within 24 hours and give me back all of my initial principle, or I start talking about things I should not. OMG you're going to talk about fictional characters and their business dealings in an online video game!!! Seriously, you should really consider the value of a blackmail threat before issuing it. Ray, I wish you the best of luck saving our ISK from this mess. I think while everyone is blaming you and the bank, we really only have ourselves to blame for not demanding a more transparent system from the beginning. And, yes, I've lost money too.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:27:00 - [372] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Kalrand Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys. true, its called world of warcraft. but what does that have to do with anything. I think if anything, the empire, high sec, mine rocks for hours on end or trade in jita for 0.01 isk game is much more like WOW than the 0.0 everyone wants to kill you, hey lets blow their stuff up for no reason game.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:35:00 - [373] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Kalrand Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys. true, its called world of warcraft. but what does that have to do with anything. I think if anything, the empire, high sec, mine rocks for hours on end or trade in jita for 0.01 isk game is much more like WOW than the 0.0 everyone wants to kill you, hey lets blow their stuff up for no reason game. i once whent into low sec, i was scared ****less so i left, it was like the barrens.....
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:43:00 - [374] Quote: I think while everyone is blaming you and the bank, we really only have ourselves to blame for not demanding a more transparent system from the beginning As I quoted in a previous post, I asked (can't "demand" in a game tbh) for transparency, and all what I got is this Ricdic shirt... - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Saint Lazarus Spiorad ag fanaiocht	Posted - 2009.08.27 15:41:00 - [375] Still would have rathered left my isk in Ebank than taking it out to put in DBank..... Rather my ISK frozen than just out right gone ----------------- My EvE Comic
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:33:00 - [376] Back on topic: Quote: He was also responsible, along with board members, for over-extending credit to a long standing loan customer Who are those "board members"? Have they been destituted? Quote: Loan defaults will be revealed, and ruthlessly pursued. I am not seeing a rush to cover their debts, what's a timeframe to know who robbed your bank? It'd be useful if we could avoid doing business with those guys. I know one name, but that's it. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:47:00 - [377] Originally by: Mining Bunnz Originally by: Dranakolys So why are incompetent fools like Hexxx and Athre still involved?... As to Hexxx, the question that has to be asked is how much of this did he know or suspect prior to stepping down? This was his baby as much as it was Ricdic's. He was the founding chairman, and unlike others involved, has real world experience in this sort of stuff. Oversight and reporting that was this sloppy is a failure on his part, and the founding board members. People that came on later, or departed midstream due to an inability to change these practices, certainly dont benefit from this failure, but they also shouldn't be held to account as much as those original board members who put this shonky pony in front of the cart to start with. Hexxx is an IT consultant, I think. Consulting in the banking or insurance industries does not make him knowledgeable of either industry. You need to read what his posts don¦t say. It¦s an amusing experience. Regardless, it would take a week for any Director with any nous whatsoever to work out that EBank was a disaster waiting to happen. So, yes, Hexxx failed miserably - as did any Director who lasted more than a week. And they ought to be held accountable - but, judging from the way this thread is going, I doubt that any will suffer the consequences.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:20:00 - [378] Originally by: Varo Jan Regardless, it would take a week for any Director with any nous whatsoever to work out that EBank was a disaster waiting to happen. So, yes, Hexxx failed miserably - as did any Director who lasted more than a week. And they ought to be held accountable - but, judging from the way this thread is going, I doubt that any will suffer the consequences. Suffer what consequences? Did I miss where the customers of ebank have some recourse they are just avoiding leveraging out of the kindness of their hearts? I see one random alt threatening them with some "information", which due to the need to make public posts about it is likely little more than rubbish. Did you mean their effective ability to launch their own public offerings/bonds? I'm quite sure with their hands full with ebank, you'll see none anytime soon, at least not on any character you can tie to the directors here. Perhaps you'll hire a merc fleet to station camp their jita alts? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:35:00 - [379] Originally by: Saint Lazarus Still would have rathered left my isk in Ebank than taking it out to put in DBank..... Rather my ISK frozen than just out right gone I have a hunch the ISK WILL be gone in a few months. I really don't see them getting back from this tbh.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:49:00 - [380] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Originally by: Saint Lazarus Still would have rathered left my isk in Ebank than taking it out to put in DBank..... Rather my ISK frozen than just out right gone I have a hunch the ISK WILL be gone in a few months. I really don't see them getting back from this tbh. I am less skeptical about that. Ray had no need to admit what he admitted. If EBANK was/is a Ponzi there is likely enough assets remaining to sustain the system for quite awhile. The interest payments were a small part of the total and growth could have been sustained for a long time. My only issue with Ray is his choice to unilaterally decide to continue a venture that looks to have taken a 60% loss without consulting the investors. It might be difficult to liquidate but that could be handled through selling the assets to speculators and returning 30% of the deposits to each investor. Given the nature of markets a few of the bigger players could simply buy out the assets and potentially make a killing over time. - Lex
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:53:00 - [381] Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 27/08/2009 17:53:38 Originally by: Varo Jan Hexxx is an IT consultant, I think. Consulting in the banking or insurance industries does not make him knowledgeable of either industry. You need to read what his posts don¦t say. It¦s an amusing experience. I personally like Hexxx. His posts were thoughtful and made me think. My only problem was the ideas tend to have a bit of dreamland quality to them. In the sense that EVE is just a game that makes sense. But as practical plans for business I am not so sure. At some point you have to run the numbers and have a bit of healthy skepticism about the integrity of your fellow EVE player. - Lex
Dranakolys Gallente Theurgy	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:06:00 - [382] Edited by: Dranakolys on 27/08/2009 18:10:17 Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Varo Jan Regardless, it would take a week for any Director with any nous whatsoever to work out that EBank was a disaster waiting to happen. So, yes, Hexxx failed miserably - as did any Director who lasted more than a week. And they ought to be held accountable - but, judging from the way this thread is going, I doubt that any will suffer the consequences. Suffer what consequences? Did I miss where the customers of ebank have some recourse they are just avoiding leveraging out of the kindness of their hearts? I see one random alt threatening them with some "information", which due to the need to make public posts about it is likely little more than rubbish. Did you mean their effective ability to launch their own public offerings/bonds? I'm quite sure with their hands full with ebank, you'll see none anytime soon, at least not on any character you can tie to the directors here. Perhaps you'll hire a merc fleet to station camp their jita alts? If you thought before you posted you would have realised that he is referring to consequences as far as they exist in MD (this needs a "duh"), as limited as they are. One part would be resigning/being fired from their positions. The other is the damage to their reputation and standing, which might actually matter to some of them (haha -- assuming their hands weren't in the jar all along). I just hope that THIS TIME it sinks into the collective minds of MD that EBank and the people who ran it into the ground, are neither trustworthy, secure or even good at what they do (unless you consider that to be running a Ponzi scheme, something they apparently did very well heh). I, of course, exclude Ray from this and I hope he doesn't get associated as part of the cause of this mess. Oh and the regular employees can hardly be blamed either. The board, however, sure as hell can.
Mitch Taylor Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:13:00 - [383] A long time ago a group of members from my corp were talking up e-bank. They had recently been approved for loans and were busy spending your isk. I have to admit personally I had never liked the idea of a bank in a virtual world, far to little consequence for potential ill actions. The content of the op is not at all surprising. Im glad my sense led me to never do business with you. Ray, you seem to have a clue about how to run a business, so regardless of the outcome, I hope you are remebered as the guy who tried to fix what was clearly a mismanaged venture from the outset. The Dark is Rising... Non EVE related content removed. Zymurgist
Nabbe	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:24:00 - [384] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Betty Rhage If I don't get a response, sure. I look forward to your information. On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that. We're also well aware of the monumental task ahead of us. As someone has indicated 8% compounded for a year on this quantity of ISK is quite a mission. But nothing is set in stone, we're open to changing the conditions set in the OP and will implement any suggestions we feel are sound and of benefit to both customers and the bank. While this is all good, it would be nice for us with accounts to get some direct news from the website in what plans or progress you and/or the Board plan on implementing. This thread is very hunky-dory, but it addressing all of EVE, not those of us that are directly affected by you and the Board's decision.
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:42:00 - [385] I can't imagine why anyone would persist with Eve banks at this point. Why bother? There's really almost no purpose here -- so much apparent effort and stress, for so little gain. The game simply does not have the features to make this work. And the social institutions aren't strong enough to compensate (and in fact they can't, when it's so easy to escape without consequences). If you know someone and trust them, sure, lend them money. But all this absurd apparatus doesn't mean anything, and never has.
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:01:00 - [386] Originally by: Betty Rhage I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors". I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public. Oh jeeze, I might be willing to pay you want Ebank owes you just to get you to simmer down...Actually, what do they owe you, this might be worth the laugh. Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? Good questions and I'd be curious to see it answered.
Renarri	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:10:00 - [387] I for one would just like my deposits back. Keep the stupid interest. Anyone else willing to right off the interest to at least get our deposits back? I must admit I do feel rather foolish...my account was only a week old before it was frozen. I spoke so highly of your business to my corp....now I avoid logging on during normal corp activity to avoid the laughter and mockery I receive. Thanks a bunch, you guys are excellent teachers in the school of hard knocks! I wonder if one of those ivy league law schools would give the BoD members honorary Doctorates?
Xetal Maelstrom	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:18:00 - [388] What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan? Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral.
Rie Takahashi	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:21:00 - [389] Originally by: Renarri now I avoid logging on during normal corp activity to avoid the laughter and mockery I receive. lol
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:26:00 - [390] Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan? Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral. Along this line of thinking, what corp with a high-collateral loan is going to pay it back? They could be out as much as they borrowed (loan repaymened, but lost collateral to the Ebank blackhole). It's probably worth going over historical offerings and looking to see who was using Ebank as either a collateral-holder or a place to store funds.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:29:00 - [391] Originally by: Dranakolys Edited by: Dranakolys on 27/08/2009 18:10:17 Originally by: Dzil Suffer what consequences? Did I miss where the customers of ebank have some recourse they are just avoiding leveraging out of the kindness of their hearts? I see one random alt threatening them with some "information", which due to the need to make public posts about it is likely little more than rubbish. Did you mean their effective ability to launch their own public offerings/bonds? I'm quite sure with their hands full with ebank, you'll see none anytime soon, at least not on any character you can tie to the directors here. Perhaps you'll hire a merc fleet to station camp their jita alts? If you thought before you posted you would have realised that he is referring to consequences as far as they exist in MD (this needs a "duh"), as limited as they are. One part would be resigning/being fired from their positions. The other is the damage to their reputation and standing, which might actually matter to some of them (haha -- assuming their hands weren't in the jar all along). Well go ahead member of MD: fire the ebank employees. Wait, you can't: it's a private corp. Customers can whine, petition, and circle jerk outside the ebank virtual HQ if they want, but it won't change a thing. To be honest its up to Ray to decide whether any former BoD members can help him rebuild it, or detract from ebank with their history. There's also the consideration that without solid financial history, he's probably entire reliant on their word for what they currently hold in ebank funds. Firing them could encourage them to fudge those numbers. As for damage to their reputation and standing, I don't think former ebank employees will walk away untarnished from this. Again, whatever their good intentions, at this point in time ebank has lost over a trillion isk belonging to its investors, and as was said every BoD member is in part accountable for that. But that will only come into play if they actually attempt to leverage their reputations in the future. I am somewhat surprised that we haven't seen some of the major figures from Ebank past and present come here to make a public apology for the damage this caused to ebank's customers. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:30:00 - [392] Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan? Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral. Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Makhar	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:43:00 - [393] Pretty big blow for the banking industry. For a bank in eve to work it has to rely on trust. I predict the end of banks within eve. I know that if withdrawals are ever turned back on I will be taking out what money I have in and then not using the service again. I imagine the same is true for a lot of others also.
Anomandaris Draginpurake Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:51:00 - [394] Edited by: Anomandaris Draginpurake on 27/08/2009 19:51:54 Not that my endorsement really means much, but freezing the investors assets was the only way to prevent a run on the bank once the truth about it's finances came to light. As far as not telling anyone and hoping nothing else starts a run goes, that was always going to be impossible when Ray started running EBank with the transparency it should always have had. Good luck with the cleanup Ray! Edit - Stupid sig :( Originally by: CCP Zymurgist The thingamagigger in the whatchamadooger broke and then the zippaerater that coupled with the Hydroganeation whoswer that makes it all work is on the firtz. Sorry I can't be mor
Inignort Err	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:13:00 - [395] For lunch today I had a patty melt from the deli downstairs and a side of the EBank 07-08 annual report. It was a interesting read; particularly in light of what is happening now. All the signs pointed to an operation ripe for theft but I have the benefit of hindsight. So, I won't dwell on that. What I will dwell on though is the need for what may or may not be left of the board to be good corporate citizens and end this debacle by returning whatever they have left to those who have money on deposit promptly. The longer they freeze accounts, the greater the distrust becomes and the more it looks like a giant Ponzi scheme unwinding. It's a bankrupt business. Not a bank with insurance and any regulation. It is simply a business that cannot pay people it owes money to and needs to be liquidated as such. The reason I mention the need for being a good corporate citizen is because there are many people like myself who are just getting to the stage in our own businesses where we are going to see out investment oppotunities and in some cases, loans. The more these debacles look like fraud (real or not) the harder it will be for anyone to find investors or loans. That is my selfish take on it. I feel for the people who remained loyal to EBank after the events of a few months ago and am hopeful that they will get their money back and not become completely turned off to the idea of investments and the benefits of financial institutions in EVE.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:29:00 - [396] Originally by: Dzil Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back. Is there incentive? Or did the collateral disappear with the trillions of isk
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:31:00 - [397] Not letting me edit This bank needs to liquidate. Yes I know that it will take months to do so
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:32:00 - [398] Originally by: Saehta Originally by: Dzil Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back. Is there incentive? Or did the collateral disappear with the trillions of isk Ding Ding Ding I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount.
Sahn	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:46:00 - [399] Ray, if you need any assitance, let me know. As a RL accountant and business minded individual I may be able to assist. As an EBANK customer, I'd like to resolve this as quickly as possible. Again, I don't know much about EBANK because I am outside looking in, but to generate almost 1 trillion isk in a year is going to need all the help you can get.
KaarBaak Minmatar Squirrel Team	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:51:00 - [400] Originally by: Saehta Originally by: Dzil Those with collateral: well, there's incentive. Those with no collateral represent the majority of the problem, they didn't get paid back. Is there incentive? Or did the collateral disappear with the trillions of isk If someone DOES pay off their loan, is there ANY assurance that the collateral will be returned anyway? KB Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Xetal Maelstrom	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:52:00 - [401] Quote: I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount. Yeah, that was my point. According to Ray M. (Spreadsheet linked in post#2) they have 257 billion ISK out in loans right now. That is, right around 1/3 of their total assets are loans to people who now have every reason to resist repaying them.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:38:00 - [402] Is it at all possible, that some of those 2 trillion in deposits never actually happened? That someone found a way to monkey with the SQL database, but unlike dbank it went undiscovered? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Cearain	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:08:00 - [403] Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan? Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral. The fact that ebank was mismanaged in no way decreases ones obligation to pay back the loan. Here we are talking about a moral obligation to pay back the loan. Eve doesn't have a mechanism to force the repayment. However, it didn't have a mechanism to force the repayment before this sh___ hit the fan either. So the moral obligation is still there just as much as it was before. I hope E-bank publishes all the people who defaulted on their loans so others can take this into account when dealing with that person and corporations they are involved with. Of course, if ebank won't give them back the full collateral there is no moral obligation to repay.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:15:00 - [404] Edited by: Kalrand on 27/08/2009 22:15:43 Originally by: Cearain Of course, if ebank won't give them back the full collateral there is no moral obligation to repay. Someone should start testing this. Edit: added below Was there ever a full accounting of the collateral after Ricdic flew off into the night?
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:23:00 - [405] Originally by: Varo Jan So, let me get this right... Ebank never had basic controls. Ebank never had simple, complete, regular financial statements. Ricdic does a runner, but Ebank still doesn¦t know for sure how much he embezzled. Neither the past Chairman, nor the directors admitted to gross negligence or offered to resign. Ebank is technically insolvent. The size of the deficit is still unknown. The bank has defaulted by not permitting withdrawals. Interest accruals are suspended. The bank hopes to restart normal operations in a year or so. Is that about it? Well, there is a very simple solution. It¦s based on the principle of "The buck stops here." Ebank is not a public corporation, therefore the owners and directors have unlimited liability. That makes the directors personally, jointly and severally liable for the full outstanding debt. All account holders should be reimbursed in full from the personal fortunes of the directors. In fairness, that should exclude Ray and anybody appointed after him. It should definitely include past directors such as Hexxx, La Vista and others. Not very palatable, directors, is it? Well, tough. Time to pay the piper. And this is why the "Secondary Market" is a scam. Without enforceable contracts backed up by regulatory government bodies libertarian ideas fail. Very few contracts in Eve are enforced/enforcable by Regulartory Government bodies. The reason the game functions at all is the buy and sell interface. But, it's fun watching everyone in this forum say "it's different this time" - and what's amazing is that sometimes it is different. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Alexian Terra	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:49:00 - [406] Originally by: Kalrand Ding Ding Ding I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount. Most people that I know of are attempting to do this. I know I am. I'd rather pay some 30M than get back the collateral that I had lying around and would never use.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:12:00 - [407] Ebank Official: We have the situation under control. Ebank will rise from the ashes in a year or five and voom through the ether once again. Irate Ebank customer: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this bank wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! It's bleeding demised! It¦s passed on! This bank is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It¦s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! Its metabolic processes are now 'istory! It¦s kicked the bucket, shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleeding choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-BANK!! ~ Adapted from Monty Python û although Fawlty Towers would be more appropriate for this farce.
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.08.28 01:01:00 - [408] PFT a year or so? basicaly the buisness plan consists of "were going to outlast the average sub length(7 months) while we skill up alts and then try to disapear and pocket every dime we can." afer all riping people off is allowed in the game, frankly you might as well fisnish what he started. **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense.
Cearain	Posted - 2009.08.28 01:24:00 - [409] Originally by: Alexian Terra Originally by: Kalrand Ding Ding Ding I think most people are going to constructively default on their loans, and possibly pay the difference between the collateral sale and the outstanding amount. Most people that I know of are attempting to do this. I know I am. I'd rather pay some 30M than get back the collateral that I had lying around and would never use. I think your last sentence is unlcear. But the reputable thing to do would be to offer to pay back minus the difference ebank can not return. (assuming that difference can be agreed on) However ebank must certainly return peoples collateral in order to collect on their loans. If I needed to pay back the last 30 mil on a 200 mil note and ebank was holding on to 100mil item of collateral from me, I certainly would not give them the 30 mil unless I knew they would give back the 100 mil item. They would be the ones who would be reneging on the agreement. It would be the same as if I signed an agreement to buy a house and then after both parties signed the agreement the guy said ôyou give me the money but IÆm not going to give you the house.ö Do I need to give him the money? Ebank needs to make sure they give people back their collateral so that they can collect on their debts. Suffice it to say that taking collateral outside of the agreement is like flat out theft. Its not really theirs to keep. Collateral is something held in trust to ensure the payment of the loan. If they keep it even though the loan is paid it is little different than theft.
Xanna Ryan	Posted - 2009.08.28 02:39:00 - [410] Edited by: Xanna Ryan on 28/08/2009 02:39:42 So basically all the people stupid enough to let you manage their money now can't pull it out and you say this can only be resolved by putting more money in? On top of that you offer no benefit to having isk in the bank in the first place now. You're saying withdraws are not being accepted. That's a great way to regain the trust of your customers. Might as well fold and cash out like Riddic did. Edit: is there anyway you can buy short on a corporation?
SamtheDog EVIL ALTS Talon Alliance	Posted - 2009.08.28 02:46:00 - [411] Absolutely disgusting. There is a reason we have an in game wallet and that is to protect YOUR assets! So some people are approached and offered interest on their isk. Now exactly HOW this profit will be made is of course unclear. That's because you can't create interest in eve, you can only make more isk through work. Seeing the size of the salaries you paid yourself, good luck with paying interest. Even better, some guy rips you off..you shrug it off and say 'all accounts are now frozen'. Gee..thanks for that! You will NEVER have the trust of the community by doing that. Why throw good money after money that's essentially been stolen? Because you said so? I feel so much better now that I can trust you with my isk! The bank is obviously a scam. The time it takes to create a webpage and this whole setup is far less than what it would take you to actually 'make' it on your own. So well played to those who were stupid enough to put isk in an eve bank since 100% of the banks in eve have been scams or are scams that have not been discovered yet. IF you want to prove any credibility, pay back the 40% to the account holders, stfu and move on. Otherwise, freezing accounts and making people give more money for you to steal while it's clear you can't find a way to make over isk is just insulting. On a persona note..I own over 100bn..and I never needed a bank to manage my money. Only a fool pays someone to make money for them. Sam "Never underestimate greed or stupidity...you can always see it emerge in the end"
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 03:06:00 - [412] Make the bank software open source. So then I can open a Goonbank without having to do much but manage loans and assets....
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.08.28 04:11:00 - [413] what is Ray's motivation to stay in this the long term. He was given the keys to the house, but the house was on fire on the inside. I do not have much faith in this phoenix.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 05:19:00 - [414] Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? 1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 05:21:00 - [415] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Who are those "board members"? Have they been destituted? All of them active at the time of the loans. No. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha what's a timeframe to know who robbed your bank? When we're ready to release the list. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 05:26:00 - [416] Originally by: Betty Rhage Either contact me in game within 24 hours and give me back all of my initial principle, or I start talking about things I should not. 24 hours will pass while I'm at work, I won't be able to login and talk to you. Please can I have an extension on the deadline? I'm really scared about you revealing what you know and ruining the bank (even more). Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Alex555	Posted - 2009.08.28 06:07:00 - [417] Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan? Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral. True. I cant imagine how ebank BoD will ever return money they have lended. Thus ever repay their customers No f*cking idea. It is a vicious circle. Which means that account frozen is quite a permanent thing a this moment. If I am mistaken I would like to hear something new about mechanism of loan collection in Eve-world
testirania	Posted - 2009.08.28 06:21:00 - [418] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? 1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals. So you let the BOD take out money while the costumers, whom they were supposed to work for arent allowed to get theirs ? Isnt this "friends taking care of friends" ? And if the BOD all were commited to making this work out, then shouldnt they have proven so by leaving their ISK in the bank instead of this insider trading kind of action ? This seems more and more to be a case of the BOD taking care of themself first instead of the customers as YOU! have put forth that is your interest.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 06:46:00 - [419] Originally by: testirania So you let the BOD take out money while the costumers, whom they were supposed to work for arent allowed to get theirs ? Isnt this "friends taking care of friends" ? And if the BOD all were commited to making this work out, then shouldnt they have proven so by leaving their ISK in the bank instead of this insider trading kind of action ? This seems more and more to be a case of the BOD taking care of themself first instead of the customers as YOU! have put forth that is your interest. Possibly. When the liquidity crisis became apparent several staff and directors deposited ISK into their sweep account to help us out. I allowed them to withdraw that ISK; some did, others didn't. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kara Mitsui The New Era Huzzah Federation	Posted - 2009.08.28 07:11:00 - [420] Wow, I've just returned to the game after several months off, and I find this. Funny, the last time I was playing properly was around the time when one of the eBank directors quit, due to a lot of accusations about RicDic not following rules, and the directors letting him do whatever he wanted. This is when he was kicking off some project with Proton Power and it became clear that eBank had put a significant % of it's assets in this one venture. I can't remember who it was that resigned, but there was a lot of damage control done by Hexx and LaVista in that thread, and the one who resigned was pretty badly spoken about. Aaaaaand..... now it turns out it was all true. Good God. I would have to say that eBank was without question the most stable and respected banking voice in the game, and yet now we learn that not only did it end badly, the bank wasn't really properly set up in the first place. Amazing. I've read a lot of comments from people that amount to 'told you so', as if this proves that you'd have to be mad to think that you could ever have a proper bank in Eve. I don't think there's any need for that tone of voice, especially directed at the poor suckers who are trying to clean up the mess. But it does highlight the fact that CCP themselves are really the only ones who can create an environment where banking can be done properly in this game. What I mean is add features that provide both the transparency, security, and auditability needed to have a proper banking system. CCP have spent a lot of time over the years boasting of the economic system in this game. They have made good PR from the fact that there are 'real' banks where players have invested a great deal of time and effort into solving the problems presented by the complete lack of supporting functionality. It's about damn time they put some freaking effort in themselves and added the features that are needed so banks can exist and investors can have some degree of security. However, I would be surprised if CCP ever did this, more to their shame. It would only be a minor effort on their part, compared to other development projects. I am sure the players in this forum could put together a list of half a dozen features that could allow a banking system to work, without making things so safe that you can never be scammed. And until they implement these things, you just aren't going to be able to have proper banks in Eve.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 07:13:00 - [421] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: testirania So you let the BOD take out money while the costumers, whom they were supposed to work for arent allowed to get theirs ? Isnt this "friends taking care of friends" ? And if the BOD all were commited to making this work out, then shouldnt they have proven so by leaving their ISK in the bank instead of this insider trading kind of action ? This seems more and more to be a case of the BOD taking care of themself first instead of the customers as YOU! have put forth that is your interest. Possibly. When the liquidity crisis became apparent several staff and directors deposited ISK into their sweep account to help us out. I allowed them to withdraw that ISK; some did, others didn't. So all the other people who deposited isk in the last week or two, who won't get their money back are less important to you than the ****ups who caused this mess?
MonwrathDisortium Incarnation of Evil	Posted - 2009.08.28 07:23:00 - [422] to all those people in this thread who still believe in and support Ebank I would like to offer my services. Send me your isk and I swear I will pay you 10% intrest every month on deposits over 1b isk. To the directors of Ebank I would like to quote Steve Miller, "Take the money and run" Cmon, we know it will happen so quit stringing people along and just tell them. You arent getting anything back. Give up and call it a loss, learn from it.
Kaaii Caldari KaaiiNet Holding Executor Corp	Posted - 2009.08.28 08:18:00 - [423] Bernie Madof would be proud According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 08:26:00 - [424] Originally by: Kalrand So all the other people who deposited isk in the last week or two, who won't get their money back are less important to you than the ****ups who caused this mess? /me shrugs. I'm trying to avoid getting into specifics, as it doesn't matter who it was. But the staffers that deposited ISK into their sweep account (which doesn't accrue interest) did so to help us out in a crisis, they're also not responsible for this mess. I made a judgement call in the situation and allowed them to recover their ISK before the freeze so as not to punish them unfairly for a kind act. If you find this unacceptable, then I'm here for the hanging, head in noose and feet standing on a stool. Feel free to kick it away. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Taryn Ceridwen Un4seen Development	Posted - 2009.08.28 08:28:00 - [425] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? 1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals. Unbelievable! You allowed employees and board members, who at the very least, are culpable if not outright complicit in this entire debacle, to withdraw 28B from their accounts before publicly announcing the freeze on withdrawals? Insider trading anyone? This is downright dishonest and does nothing to inspire confidence that customers will ever see a single isk back. According to the OP, 28B is 3 week's interest on customers' accounts and whilst admittedly a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things, at the very least that isk should be put to use in recovering the deficit and give the impression of trying to put customer interests first. Surely it is not too much to ask that EBank employees stand in line like the rest of us? Ray, while I appreciate that this mess is not of your making and that you have been handed a big stinking pile of ****, do you honestly believe that statements such as these made above are helping this situation? Perception is all in situations like this. What would be more helpful would be a very clear timetable for announcements and decisions, not nebulous 'we are looking at solutions and will make an announcement sometime' - I want to know what my options are, or at the very least know when I will know what my options are.
Bluebeard Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.08.28 08:39:00 - [426] Originally by: Ray McCormack When the liquidity crisis became apparent several staff and directors deposited ISK into their sweep account to help us out. I allowed them to withdraw that ISK; some did, others didn't. Could you tell us how much isk was put into the Sweep Accounts by the staff at this time.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:00:00 - [427] Originally by: Bluebeard Could you tell us how much isk was put into the Sweep Accounts by the staff at this time. Not precisely, but it was in excess of 45b, over a period of time. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:09:00 - [428] Originally by: Taryn Ceridwen What would be more helpful would be a very clear timetable for announcements and decisions, not nebulous 'we are looking at solutions and will make an announcement sometime' - I want to know what my options are, or at the very least know when I will know what my options are. No, things will happen when they happen. I'm not going to be forced into releasing time frames only to be trolled on here when they're not met (which will happen, this is a game, we have lives outside of EVE). I have indicated a plan will be published in a month or so, and we're looking to establish methods for people to get their ISK at a reduced rate by then. I cannot offer more than that. And before you jump on this point, remember we are doing this because we feel it is the right thing to do for both the customers and the bank. Do not vilify the staffers staying on to help recuperate this drunken horse, they are acting with best intentions. You may disagree with either the methods or intentions outlined, but it does not give you the right to criticise or demean their character. These are stand up guys who are staying on in the face of all adversity, they deserve that much respect. Some of them are responsible for the position the bank find itself in, and they're staying on because of that and accept their failings; but others are not responsible. Do not lump them all in the same boat, and remember that your attacks affect those who have no part to play in the culpability. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Bluebeard Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:09:00 - [429] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Bluebeard Could you tell us how much isk was put into the Sweep Accounts by the staff at this time. Not precisely, but it was in excess of 45b, over a period of time. Ok, so when it looked like there was a liquidity problem, the staff injected 45bil of their own isk to cover what was hopefully a temporary problem and later on when it became obvious that the problem was serious, you allowed them to recover 28bil of the injected isk ?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:12:00 - [430] Edited by: Ray McCormack on 28/08/2009 09:14:20 Originally by: Bluebeard Ok, so when it looked like there was a liquidity problem, the staff injected 45bil of their own isk to cover what was hopefully a temporary problem and later on when it became obvious that the problem was serious, you allowed them to recover 28bil of the injected isk ? Correct. Edit : I'm not 100% certain on the figures, but they're accurate enough to paint the picture. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Bluebeard Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:25:00 - [431] Originally by: Ray McCormack Edited by: Ray McCormack on 28/08/2009 09:14:20 Originally by: Bluebeard Ok, so when it looked like there was a liquidity problem, the staff injected 45bil of their own isk to cover what was hopefully a temporary problem and later on when it became obvious that the problem was serious, you allowed them to recover 28bil of the injected isk ? Correct. Edit : I'm not 100% certain on the figures, but they're accurate enough to paint the picture. This makes it look like an interest free loan from the staff, that has been partially repaid, rather than an attempt by the staff to cash out ahead of the other investors. By only mentioning the 28bil repaid, you were seriously asking for a kicking from the (rightfully) enraged investors that are posting in here.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:31:00 - [432] Originally by: Bluebeard By only mentioning the 28bil repaid, you were seriously asking for a kicking from the (rightfully) enraged investors that are posting in here. Yes, but at least I weeded out some of the drama queens not looking to think or discuss things through logically. I can supply answers to questions, I'm not going to outline the entire situation every time. If people want to fly off the handle at every sign of an apparent indiscretion then that's their prerogative. I'm not here to baby them into accepting my every decision. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Taryn Ceridwen Un4seen Development deadspace society	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:58:00 - [433] Ray, surely it is in your best interests to outline the situation and not just answer questions. Forgive me for being a 'drama queen' but when such statements are made baldly and without historical context, then it is understandable that people, who have to all intent and purpose lost money, jump to the wrong conclusion. As I stated in my last post, most people recognise that you are not, personally, responsible for any of this, yet you have put yourself in the position of responsibility and part of that responsibility is to paint as full a picture of the situation as you can. As I mentioned previously perception is all and my perception of the situation would have been different had I known that 28B of withdrawals was part of a larger 45B injection of liquidity and an attempt to stave off the present crisis.
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:58:00 - [434] Edited by: Roguehalo on 28/08/2009 10:00:45 I've been following the various Ebank drama bombs from afar for the last couple of years(I never could persuade myself to give ricdic my isk ) and what I always found interesting is that although liquidity was always considered to be important nobody ever seemed to ask about solvency. So I'll ask. Was Ebank EVER solvent? If it was, at what point did it become insolvent? This question is kinda more directed at the outraged investors than at Ray. Solvency should have been your number one concern right from the off. And it's a subject that should have been hammered again and again and again. edited for spelling
Betty Rhage	Posted - 2009.08.28 12:24:00 - [435] Ok I warned people, and no response.. EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going. The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle.. Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later. - Betty
Crosskeys	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:19:00 - [436] Originally by: Betty Rhage Ok I warned people, and no response.. EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going. The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle.. Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later. cool story bro.
species2143	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:20:00 - [437] Originally by: Betty Rhage Ok I warned people, and no response.. EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going. The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle.. Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later. Cool story bro. You of course know this because you where one of the original investors or a member of EBANK staff right? Without any facts your accusations are nothing more than a stale fart admidst a vulcanic eruption... insignificant. Let me guess you have a "source" that used to work within EBANK that has feeded you all this information? You can back-up these accusations with proof or are you simply seeking your 30 seconds of E-attention and E-drama?
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:23:00 - [438] Well, whatever the case, fact is Ebank displayed incredible incompetence and I seriously doubt if they will be trusted again even if they do manage to recover.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:32:00 - [439] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 28/08/2009 13:32:54 Quote: CCP have spent a lot of time over the years boasting of the economic system in this game. They have made good PR from the fact that there are 'real' banks where players have invested a great deal of time and effort into solving the problems presented by the complete lack of supporting functionality. It's about damn time they put some freaking effort in themselves and added the features that are needed so banks can exist and investors can have some degree of security They made PR because it's extraordinary that actual players of a sandbox game are given by said game a starter sufficient enough to achieve a secondary market. If EvE had those pre-made facilities, the game would not be a sandbox any more, nor it'd be a newspapers-worthy news for them to create a secondary market. Because they'd just be "canned game facilities users", a lot akin to WoW auction house users. Quote: However, I would be surprised if CCP ever did this, more to their shame. It would only be a minor effort on their part, compared to other development projects. I am sure the players in this forum could put together a list of half a dozen features Yes it'd be easy, exactly like how it'd be easy to close A LOT of loose ends in this game. But then, EvE won't be EvE any more. It'll be another theme park, where guided players use canned and tested facilities to achieve canned results. Quote: And until they implement these things, you just aren't going to be able to have proper banks in Eve Maybe because EvE does not need "proper" banks. So the issue is here, but it's artificial and due to players bringing in RL mentality in a game. Maybe what's needed in EvE is another kind of institutions that are yet to be discovered. Remember that the foundations of EvE's "market" has been laid down by Hexxx, a RL bank consultant. He brought an RL implementation in a game. Maybe we need to break and go beyond those foundations and find out what works in this world. IF there's something that works in this world. Selene is trying. Apparently lotteries work well in EvE, poker works well. A new concept of bank could also work well and where a generation of bank is dying, others are coming up (I also refer to Ulecese's effort). What looks quite sure and established is that nothing is set in stone nor sure nor people shouldn't risk what they can't afford to lose. Maybe future banks (if the game will even need them) could finally build upon the Laws Of EvE and not monkeying the RL laws. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:56:00 - [440] The most important thing to any Bank (or large project) is highly accurate reporting. IHFS looks to have this down pretty well and Selene's project too. EBANK struggled with this. Ray should be commended for his efforts to date...the Board made a difficult decision but Ray gave them the visibility that helped them come to this. Without Ray, the Board wouldn't have been fully aware of the staggering problem. I shouldn't need to spell out what that would have meant for the Bank months from now. As for past activities....I'm not a RL Banker. I'm a consultant who works on governance (controls, process, and policy). I understand audits and reporting and I happen to enjoy finance. I had the knowledge, but not the tools to see into EBANK's true financial state. This is no excuse for the challenges EBANK finds itself in, and I take responsibility for things being where they are now. To EBANK's customers; I am sorry. It has been 2 years since I launched the first version of EBANK. I have no real personal wealth anymore and while I enjoy EVE, I don't really log in. The markets are the reason I "play" and as such, this is has burned me out a bit. I'll be working with EBANK a bit and posting occasionally but for a while at least I won't be around as much. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:59:00 - [441] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Maybe because EvE does not need "proper" banks. So the issue is here, but it's artificial and due to players bringing in RL mentality in a game. Maybe what's needed in EvE is another kind of institutions that are yet to be discovered. Remember that the foundations of EvE's "market" has been laid down by Hexxx, a RL bank consultant. He brought an RL implementation in a game. Maybe we need to break and go beyond those foundations and find out what works in this world. IF there's something that works in this world. Selene is trying. Apparently lotteries work well in EvE, poker works well. A new concept of bank could also work well and where a generation of bank is dying, others are coming up (I also refer to Ulecese's effort). What looks quite sure and established is that nothing is set in stone nor sure nor people shouldn't risk what they can't afford to lose. Maybe future banks (if the game will even need them) could finally build upon the Laws Of EvE and not monkeying the RL laws. Eve's sandbox for the economy is much closer to that of the 19th century than that of the 21st. You should look at what institutions flourished in that era. Lotteries, banks, stock markets, bonds, and loans were all common place. As were scams, bank runs, pump and dump schemes, debt repudiation, and a complete lack of enforcement. Prior to the SEC, the gold standard for a public corporation was to have a "Morgan Man" on the board of directors, one of J. P. Morgan's employess, since they were considered to always carry the weight of J.P Morgan himself. Common people were hard pressed to get loans and insurance, and that's why loan sharking and benevolent associations flourished. I could go on and on, but what we have here are people trying to apply modern financial theory to a game where there are no enforcement mechanisms that are part of the inherent structure of modern finance.
Saehta Sigillum Militum Xpisti Novus Ordo Mundi	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:14:00 - [442] Originally by: Betty Rhage Ok I warned people, and no response.. EBANK was never planned to be solvent. The idea was simply to "fly free" in eve at others expense, and make some isk doing it.. via something no quit a ponzi scheme. The early investors where in fact a part of this, and knew exactly how this was going to turn out, although the later investors where never told in order to keep it going. The problem was they all never expected Unholy Rage, so when they got bitten by it it just happened to be at a low point in the cycle.. Lucky for ebank, I have to get to work now as my 'ship' is here. More later. Really? This is your shocking revelation? Son... I am disappoint
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:40:00 - [443] Quote: Eve's sandbox for the economy is much closer to that of the 19th century than that of the 21st. You should look at what institutions flourished in that era. I looked, else I would not have created a previous post about creating exactly the institutions that made 19th century finance into 20th century (money fund, FDIC alike institution etc). Quote: Common people were hard pressed to get loans and insurance, and that's why loan sharking and benevolent associations flourished. I could go on and on, but what we have here are people trying to apply modern financial theory to a game where there are no enforcement mechanisms that are part of the inherent structure of modern finance. No, there's no past or future finance for EvE because it's not real. The GREAT difference between EvE and RL are two: 1) Inability to forcibly identify debtors and make them pay (money, jail etc). 2) There's not need for money. None is going to starve to death in EvE, money can be created out of nowhere (ie missions). So a bank or whatever institution has first to convince people that they make sense at all to exist, which is not so easy. Future banks will have to take these crucial points into account. The times for "reputation" are over, as well for the "1.5% or GTFO" credo. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:18:00 - [444] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Eve's sandbox for the economy is much closer to that of the 19th century than that of the 21st. You should look at what institutions flourished in that era. I looked, else I would not have created a previous post about creating exactly the institutions that made 19th century finance into 20th century (money fund, FDIC alike institution etc). What moved us into the modern era was direct government regulation. This is something that ccp is not going to provide. Volunteer systems did exist in the 19th century. Notably some stock exchanges had reporting standards for the stocks and bonds that traded there. Lloyds of London had a system of interlocking guarantees between the different names and syndicates operating under its umbrella. They were hardly universal.
Hel O'Ween Academy of Truth	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:31:00 - [445] Originally by: Varo Jan Hexxx is an IT consultant, I think. Consulting in the banking or insurance industries does not make him knowledgeable of either industry. You need to read what his posts don¦t say. It¦s an amusing experience. I don't know Hexx (personally) and what kind of consulting he does in that industry. But I do know IT consultants working for banks. Those are the guys that wrote the trading software for the banks. They were the ones who know the business from the inside out, because they (had to) developed and implemented the rules based on which the software suggests to the bankers when to sell and when to buy. As for the financial industry itself. Well, didn't the last two years just prove that they know sh*t about their very own business themselves? -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager
Fresh Prince For us all	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:07:00 - [446] Originally by: Makhar Pretty big blow for the banking industry. For a bank in eve to work it has to rely on trust. I predict the end of banks within eve. Who's to say there isn't anything else? Sure, things don't look great, have they been that much better generally? Isn't there a way this can work? Hard work, more effort? What about diversification? expansion on a micro level? Other options? Have 'they' thought about this? Ummmmm... maybe it looks that way... What if you were in their shoes? Same? Different? What? Originally by: Makhar I know that if withdrawals are ever turned back on I will be taking out what money I have in and then not using the service again. I imagine the same is true for a lot of others also. What about someone else doing same again, another way?, different? Surely, there must be a way of doing: 'what is a bank'... given similar environment/exposure?... same CCP... same / more players... ISK?. Depending on how you play the game.... you will see it differently, or NOT. Again: There must be something that 'must' work, right? Someone watching/learning? New ideas?
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:27:00 - [447] So my question is since EBANK is considred privatly owned and not public which is the reason they used for not reporting, is it not the owners responsiblity to make sure people get there interest and isk back in full? If it was public and it went heads up then so be it, you invested in a bad investment, but this was private so the private owners would owe the isk no?
Ulecese Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:43:00 - [448] Originally by: Hexxx The most important thing to any Bank (or large project) is highly accurate reporting. IHFS looks to have this down pretty well and Selene's project too. EBANK struggled with this. As hexxx said our backend reporting interface pretty much covers everything, and I'm sure ECR's has similar reporting features since myself and selene have had countless discussions and brainstorming on transparency and reporting. He mentioned that the IHAFS admin backend was pretty much what he had in mind for a universal reporting tool for all major financial business's and I would totally agree, as would anybody who has seen it. I would be happy to offer my advice on getting something like what IHAFS has setup at ebank for no other reason other than interest in making the industry more secure and transparent. ------------------------------------ CEO, Ihatalo Research and Development Ihatalo Cartel Banking and 3rd Party Transaction Service : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/
Garthran Gallente CINDER INDUSTRIALS United Outworlders	Posted - 2009.08.28 17:12:00 - [449] Originally by: Proton Power So my question is since EBANK is considred privatly owned and not public which is the reason they used for not reporting, is it not the owners responsiblity to make sure people get there interest and isk back in full? If it was public and it went heads up then so be it, you invested in a bad investment, but this was private so the private owners would owe the isk no? This point has been made previously in this thread. However, do you have a couple trillion ISK lying around? No? Maybe your corp members? Yeah, instantly and privately resurrecting a deficit that large out of personal wallets is unlikely at best. Also, that whole concept of "owe" goes back to the ongoing discussion in this thread- this is not a structured system. There are not controls in place. They owe, really, only what they feel personally obligated to pay, because we simply can't force them to pay. ------------------------------------------------ Suicide drones?
Retarded Noob Caldari The Nightwatch	Posted - 2009.08.28 17:51:00 - [450] halting withdrawals may prevent a run on the bank's under-capitalized finances, but holding money where its true owners cannot reach it is still tantamount to theft. Or you can call it an extended no-interest loan to the bank on the public's behalf if you like. The effect is the same. it's called a bail out. you should turn eve off for a couple of hours and tune into cnn or something. lol, just trying to lighten things up a bit. no offense meant.
Nisstyree Chimera Raiders MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.08.28 18:14:00 - [451] Edited by: Nisstyree on 28/08/2009 18:15:54 Originally by: ******ed Noob halting withdrawals may prevent a run on the bank's under-capitalized finances, but holding money where its true owners cannot reach it is still tantamount to theft. Or you can call it an extended no-interest loan to the bank on the public's behalf if you like. The effect is the same. it's called a bail out. you should turn eve off for a couple of hours and tune into cnn or something. lol, just trying to lighten things up a bit. no offense meant. The decidion of freezing the accounts is possibly the only way he had of gaining enough time without everything collapsing. Therefore the decision of freezing the accounts is logical. If he had asked the investors first it would not have been considered a kidnapping of funds or theft, problem is that the very presentation of the vote would have caused a run thus leaving nobody with a choice any more. I think the decisions taken recently are more imposed rather than chosen for a BANK that actually wants to make it up for their past mistakes. They have had various opportunities for running with whatever they could grab, yet they choose the hard way out of this mess. In the end the recent events are but symptomes of a larger problem both within and outside of EBANK. My 2 cents Edit: Page 16 snipa
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.28 18:26:00 - [452] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? 1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals. Am I reading this right? You let the BOD pull out their isk to an amount of 28b after you had begun discussing a freeze the bank funds. That was a terrible move, given they were taking out isk at full value while leaving customers with only a fraction of their investment. They walked off with close to 20b isk that wasn't theirs considering cash on hand at the bank. As far as I can see, that is a straight up theft from remaining depositors. This is in addition to all the fees paid out. Its over 100b paid out to EBank insiders as far as I can see. Thats real money, its close to 10% of what you need to set the bank right, and you just passed it out the door to insiders.
Jerni	Posted - 2009.08.28 18:40:00 - [453] Originally by: Tesal Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? 1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals. Am I reading this right? You let the BOD pull out their isk to an amount of 28b after you had begun discussing a freeze the bank funds. That was a terrible move, given they were taking out isk at full value while leaving customers with only a fraction of their investment. They walked off with close to 20b isk that wasn't theirs considering cash on hand at the bank. As far as I can see, that is a straight up theft from remaining depositors. This is in addition to all the fees paid out. Its over 100b paid out to EBank insiders as far as I can see. Thats real money, its close to 10% of what you need to set the bank right, and you just passed it out the door to insiders. No, you're not. Read Ray's posts following the one you quoted.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.28 19:00:00 - [454] Originally by: Ray McCormack Do not vilify the staffers staying on to help recuperate this drunken horse, they are acting with best intentions. You may disagree with either the methods or intentions outlined, but it does not give you the right to criticise or demean their character. These are stand up guys who are staying on in the face of all adversity, they deserve that much respect. Some of them are responsible for the position the bank find itself in, and they're staying on because of that and accept their failings; but others are not responsible. Do not lump them all in the same boat, and remember that your attacks affect those who have no part to play in the culpability. [/quote That's not very realistic Ray. Ebank is accountable to the damage it caused its customers. When you choose not to name specific BoD members for their role in the fault, that implies the board as a whole shares accountability for the damage, even if they specifically didn't cause it. The blame doesn't just go away. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.28 19:08:00 - [455] Originally by: Jerni No, you're not. Read Ray's posts following the one you quoted. Please also note that Ray is not allowing people who put money in after the BoD members did to take it out.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.28 19:13:00 - [456] Originally by: Tesal Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? 1. Yes. 2. 28b if I'm not mistaken, from the accounts I know about. I authorised the withdrawals. Am I reading this right? You let the BOD pull out their isk to an amount of 28b after you had begun discussing a freeze the bank funds. That was a terrible move, given they were taking out isk at full value while leaving customers with only a fraction of their investment. They walked off with close to 20b isk that wasn't theirs considering cash on hand at the bank. As far as I can see, that is a straight up theft from remaining depositors. This is in addition to all the fees paid out. Its over 100b paid out to EBank insiders as far as I can see. Thats real money, its close to 10% of what you need to set the bank right, and you just passed it out the door to insiders. I have to mirror this sentiment. Yes, internal BoD members recently put that money into the accounts to attempt to balance solvency personally. However, in the net balance of things, this isn't any different from a customer depositing money in those last 2 weeks either. Nor money customers invested around the time of the first release of information when Ricdic scammed. You essentially allowed insider trading to occur. And again, without specifics to which board members were involved, the community has no choice but to hold the entire board accountable. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Amber Gold	Posted - 2009.08.28 23:21:00 - [457] Simple: Ask CCP for a bailout, The US has done it and look what happened!
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.08.28 23:45:00 - [458] Originally by: Amber Gold Simple: Ask CCP for a bailout, The US has done it and look what happened! It extended the US economic depression and put private companies in bureaucratic government hands? -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Mamer	Posted - 2009.08.28 23:48:00 - [459] Hey, while your at it, and already in a lot of debt, whats a little more right? So what do you say you implement Obamacare for all of the Eve Citizens. Instead of pilots plotting your demise in your pod, bureaucrats will tell the pilots if your clone is worth podding or not. Whats a few more billion in debt gonna hurt?....right?..
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.29 00:35:00 - [460] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Jerni No, you're not. Read Ray's posts following the one you quoted. Please also note that Ray is not allowing people who put money in after the BoD members did to take it out. I know, I'm evil. Someone kick the stool already. Free reading glasses if you do. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
ddr800	Posted - 2009.08.29 00:56:00 - [461] Giggles, bankers are more corrupt than pirates, good luck to all the poor fools that gave them money. If you want an example of why bankers are not to be trusted look at the American bank bail out, bankers in real life are out of control crooks, The idea of them in an uncontrolled environment that they donÆt have to worry about real prison or death is blue print for disaster. If there where game mechanics that force banks to be legit then maybe otherwise itÆs all just huge scam. Ponzi scam? Ultimately this bank is trying to throw one guy under the bus who did this and blame him, however the entire bank is responsible for this situation and shouldnÆt be trusted it is their combined incompetence that cause this to happen not the act of one man.
Internal Dispute	Posted - 2009.08.29 01:29:00 - [462] As a person from the outside willing to make a huge investment into EBANK I'm making an offering of 2.75T to buy the bank out of trouble. In return I'm asking for 75% of all isk earned for the next 3 and a half years. This offer will stand till downtime in 3 days time. Contact me ingame for more details. I do think EBANK is something worth saving. (this isk is from a multitude of investors and I've been asked to front it.) I hope to hear from you soon. ID.
Frank Corncob	Posted - 2009.08.29 02:33:00 - [463] Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be. Just the way it is.
Montmazar Vard School of Cryo Cuisine	Posted - 2009.08.29 04:46:00 - [464] Anyone who deposits in an online bank in Eve for anything but roleplaying purposes is a sucker. The rate of return will never outstrip the risk of having all your assets disappear. The RL alternative to using a bank is stuffing all the money under your mattress. In RL, the risk of fire and theft outstrips the risk of your bank melting down. In Eve, every single player already has access to a perfectly secure place to store unlimited funds. The only thing a bank offers is a rate of return. What is it? 10 percent? Less? Did anyone really think there was less than 10 percent chance of this or something similar happening? Hell, did anyone think the odds of their deposits being frozen or stolen entirely was less than 50? This is Eve, there are scammers around every corner, everyone can be presumed a liar, and anything outside of your own personal wallet is financial lowsec.
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Universal Fleet Operations	Posted - 2009.08.29 05:13:00 - [465] I feel bad for Ray.. however: About three weeks ago I got a really bad feeling. Couldn't tell what it was but it was something that just told me that EBank wasn't going to stay up. So I pulled my cash, luckily about 14 days or so before this lockdown. It's weird, as I've just decided to reinvest it all into building anyway. It's.. frustrating to hear that large investors won't be able to pull what they should, but I suppose that's the risk associated with a bank like this. Hence why I probably got that bad feeling. easy enough to say that I won't be participating in player banks anymore. The risks of failure with absolutely no guarantee is too great versus having no real profit out of having it sit in the wallet. I was lucky, and I feel bad for those still stuck As far as the BoD and staff withdrawals after the discussions of freezing, it just goes to show that there was a lack of faith in their own system. Are there decent people in the BoD? I'm sure there are, but like said countless times before, without names, faces or specifics the entire organization gets the blame here. I'm very disappointed to see all this, especially after how impressed I was with the financial data presented from last year. (It's what made me decide to invest in the first place.) ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.29 08:04:00 - [466] Quote: In Eve, every single player already has access to a perfectly secure place to store unlimited funds. They should change it to the Darkfall Online system: you carry money with you => you will drop it when you are destroyed. This would suddenly make banking look like something very needed. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Carine Parnasse	Posted - 2009.08.29 08:23:00 - [467] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha They should change it to the Darkfall Online system: you carry money with you => you will drop it when you are destroyed. This would suddenly make banking look like something very needed. Firstly, that makes no sense lorewise(Whats the space term for lore?) Why would my cash in my electronic bank account be dropped when i lose my ship? Secondly, dying in eve is eventually unavoidable. Giving money to others is completly open to theft without recourse. So where do i keep my money?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.29 09:08:00 - [468] Quote: Firstly, that makes no sense lorewise(Whats the space term for lore?) Why would my cash in my electronic bank account be dropped when i lose my ship? Secondly, dying in eve is eventually unavoidable. Giving money to others is completly open to theft without recourse. So where do i keep my money? Why, does it make more sense (if we go to be anal) to have inhordinate amounts stored in a "nowhere", with no charges nor interests to pay, a nowhere that cannot be attacked and is always friendly? To make it EvE lore-ish it should not be totally safe, ever. In fact, player driven banks are more realistic than our "money out of nowhere" default system. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Carine Parnasse	Posted - 2009.08.29 09:55:00 - [469] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Why, does it make more sense (if we go to be anal) to have inhordinate amounts stored in a "nowhere", with no charges nor interests to pay, a nowhere that cannot be attacked and is always friendly? To make it EvE lore-ish it should not be totally safe, ever. In fact, player driven banks are more realistic than our "money out of nowhere" default system. Well, out of nowhere dimension-wise makes sense, but i concede the lack of charges doesnt. It might be more imersive to have your account accrue intrest, and have charges incured for transfers and such, but that sounds like a lot of hassle for CCP. Perhaps our wallets are maintained by concord, hence the security of them, and all the intrest they make off our money is used to fund concord's protection. Since we all use accounts managed by the same place there is no real cost to transfering money between any accounts. Anyway, out of curiosity, who is on the Ebank BOD? In my limited experience ive never seen them in thier Ebank hats, except Hexx and Ray. This affair reminds me of Dbanks fall, with only Shar really communicating with investors.
FinancialDragon	Posted - 2009.08.29 09:56:00 - [470] Originally by: Internal Dispute As a person from the outside willing to make a huge investment into EBANK I'm making an offering of 2.75T to buy the bank out of trouble. In return I'm asking for 75% of all isk earned for the next 3 and a half years. This offer will stand till downtime in 3 days time. Contact me ingame for more details. I do think EBANK is something worth saving. (this isk is from a multitude of investors and I've been asked to front it.) I hope to hear from you soon. ID. If this is a serious offer, it looks like an interesting proposition to Ebanks issue, not only does it cover the 1.2tril isk needed, it provides additional liquid capital to make further profitable investments to allow increased earnings to cover losses. If people can get access to their isk again, some trust would be restored, mabye even earn some trust, so that ebank was able to recover from what people thought was an attempt to steal their isk.
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.29 14:04:00 - [471] Losses Losses to date have occurred as follows: 1. ~250b û Ricdic Theft. 2. ~380b û Loan Defaults 3. >48b û Share Losses 4. ~466b û Interest Paid 5. ~75b û Salaries --------- Based on this you are currently short aprox 1.2tril isk, but what about isk gained thorughout EBANKS history? I know I made Ebank atleast 70bil but more likely towards over the 100bil mark. I know that some loans made isk that were repaid, I was told more than the isk I brought into Ebank so say another 100bil, what about the titan bpo's you have been copying for close to a year now? This does not include the extra isk AC and the Component BPO sales that EBANK was doing, or the advertising fee's EBANK was getting, or the interest it did earn on shares it owns. Based on the profts EBANK should have made, you should not be near the 1.2tril deficit you claim it to be in, unless a lot more isk than you know disapeared.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.29 14:08:00 - [472] Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be. Just the way it is. I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident. Explain to me again which of us shares more blame? EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.29 14:11:00 - [473] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be. Just the way it is. I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident. Explain to me again which of us shares more blame? Hexxx since your the main person that stuck by and said Ebank is not a public venture, who are the private owners that are responsible for the isk to be repaid with all interest that is do to them?
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.29 14:41:00 - [474] Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be. Just the way it is. I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident. Explain to me again which of us shares more blame? Hexxx since your the main person that stuck by and said Ebank is not a public venture, who are the private owners that are responsible for the isk to be repaid with all interest that is do to them? The Board of Directors. That is the task of the Board. I'll be supporting them as they walk that road. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.29 14:52:00 - [475] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be. Just the way it is. I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident. Explain to me again which of us shares more blame? Hexxx since your the main person that stuck by and said Ebank is not a public venture, who are the private owners that are responsible for the isk to be repaid with all interest that is do to them? The Board of Directors. That is the task of the Board. I'll be supporting them as they walk that road. So your saying that the BOD is responsible for making sure that every isk gets paid that is in every account with the interest that they signed up for? Then why is there talks of liquidating accounts for lower amounts and why is interest cut off by the BOD. Now if your going ot cut interest off thats fine, but then people should be able to withdrawl isk.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.29 15:07:00 - [476] Originally by: Proton Power So your saying that the BOD is responsible for making sure that every isk gets paid that is in every account with the interest that they signed up for? Then why is there talks of liquidating accounts for lower amounts and why is interest cut off by the BOD. Now if your going ot cut interest off thats fine, but then people should be able to withdrawl isk. Since you clearly haven't read the whole thread (pretty surprising given your usual passion for ebank and drama) - I'll answer your questions for 25m isk. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Tamega	Posted - 2009.08.29 16:45:00 - [477] As someone who has isk in eve bank my questions are this: 1) How likely am I to get 100% of my isk back (I dont really care about the interest I just want back the isk I have worked over 2 years to make) 2) Roughly how long will it take? I know you cant give an actual date, I dont mind if it like 3 months 6 months, whatever, but the idea that 50% of my money is gone is not acceptable. 3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.29 16:50:00 - [478] Originally by: Tamega 3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's. CCP isn't going to get involved in this at all. CCP has a hands-off policy.
Frank Corncob	Posted - 2009.08.29 16:51:00 - [479] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be. Just the way it is. I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident. Explain to me again which of us shares more blame? It's not about who deserves the most blame, although it should be, people don't perceive facts like that. Ray put his face out representing Ebank and the majority of people will perceive that the failure is his fault, even though it isn't, but you don't exactly see the BoD all talking on this matter, not like they need to. Or ever did for that matter. People want to lash out, and it will come down to the first person they come across. Ray has a stake in this game still, you don't.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:32:00 - [480] Originally by: Frank Corncob Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Frank Corncob Ray is a scapegoat. Regardless of his intentions, he ultimately will bear the burden of the failure of Ebank. The BoD are faceless, Ray is the face of Ebank now, and he will pay the price, whatever it may be. Just the way it is. I launched the first version of EBANK and served as it's Chairman for 2 years. Ray just joined after the Ricdic incident. Explain to me again which of us shares more blame? It's not about who deserves the most blame, although it should be, people don't perceive facts like that. Ray put his face out representing Ebank and the majority of people will perceive that the failure is his fault, even though it isn't, but you don't exactly see the BoD all talking on this matter, not like they need to. Or ever did for that matter. People want to lash out, and it will come down to the first person they come across. Ray has a stake in this game still, you don't. See, I told you there were worse posters than me! You didn't believe me. Ha!!!
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:41:00 - [481] Originally by: Tamega As someone who has isk in eve bank my questions are this: 3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's. Hell no, no bail outs in EVE plz, had enough of those IRL.
Tamega	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:58:00 - [482] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Originally by: Tamega As someone who has isk in eve bank my questions are this: 3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's. Hell no, no bail outs in EVE plz, had enough of those IRL. Can I ask why?
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2009.08.29 18:20:00 - [483] LOL... Having read thru this thread, I have only *one* questions to ask... Why are any of you still talking to Ray?? The jig is up! The game is over! The Rats have stolen most of the cheese and the the only thing left is for the Roaches to run off with the crumbs! So why are so many of you still wasting breath on Ray??
Drab Cane Killer Breeze Dread Carbon Initiative	Posted - 2009.08.29 18:36:00 - [484] Originally by: Tamega As someone who has isk in eve bank my questions are this: 3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's. Tamega, CCP won't step in for the following reason: Originally by: LaVista Vista CCP isn't going to get involved in this at all. CCP has a hands-off policy. Besides, EBank is not an integral part of the EvE economy. In RL, the sudden credit freeze caused businesses to close and pushed people out of work and out of homes. EBank's freeze, or even total failure, will not have near the same effect on EvE. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that EBank is run completely by volunteers, who are compensated for the real time they spend with a bit of play money. I expect that each person on the BoD is shamed by the state of the bank, and Ray is doing his best to move past the finger pointing and on to resuscitating the bank. As a depositor, I'm only interested in how things got this way if that knowledge helps improve procedures going forward. My main concern is seeing EBank back on its feet and Ray seems determined to make that happen. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
F90OEX F9X Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:00:00 - [485] Originally by: Comrade Commizzar LOL... Having read thru this thread, I have only *one* questions to ask... Why are any of you still talking to Ray?? The jig is up! The game is over! The Rats have stolen most of the cheese and the the only thing left is for the Roaches to run off with the crumbs! So why are so many of you still wasting breath on Ray?? There hoping Ray can turn just water into wine
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:22:00 - [486] Originally by: F90OEX There hoping Ray can turn just water into wine He's already turned ISK into whine
Tamega	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:33:00 - [487] Originally by: Drab Cane Originally by: Tamega As someone who has isk in eve bank my questions are this: 3) Are there any statements from ccp yet? forget the politics for a second, this is a game, all they have to do is get the account statements from eve bank and change some numbers on a server, as something that was advertised on the eve online site, they should step in, as happened in real life with governments bailing out the banks in the UK, US and many other country's. Tamega, CCP won't step in for the following reason: Originally by: LaVista Vista CCP isn't going to get involved in this at all. CCP has a hands-off policy. Besides, EBank is not an integral part of the EvE economy. In RL, the sudden credit freeze caused businesses to close and pushed people out of work and out of homes. EBank's freeze, or even total failure, will not have near the same effect on EvE. I must say I disagree, many trillions of isk is going to have an effect on the economy, I would not be surprised if some people, faced with the concept of rebuilding what they have spent years on making, quit. I dread to think of how many weeks/months of time I have potentially lost, if all goes tit-up and I lose the lot. Not sure I could do that again
Black Omne Caldari House Of BlackStar Semper-Mortis	Posted - 2009.08.29 20:08:00 - [488] I have a good amount of isk in EBANK, and I admire Ray for trying to get this all sorted out, I for one trust he will do the best he can to get things working again.
Roquezir Minmatar Opeibus Vis One Stop Research	Posted - 2009.08.29 20:14:00 - [489] Edited by: Roquezir on 29/08/2009 20:14:14
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.08.29 20:14:00 - [490] Wow, maybe even WoW! I'm simply gobsmacked, and left relatively speechless. However I feel that I must say something. I'm a member of an elite after all, albeit an absurd elite; People who didn't lose money in EBANK. It's absurd that this is an elite since everybody should be a member of it. Here's what I see about Eve based banks in general. Don't but any money in them, don't put any stock in the segment of the Market Discussions 'Elite' who advocates them and mercilessly flames their critics until everybody is so bullied that they dare not say the truth; The truth that all banks in Eve are afflicted by rank incompetence, incestuous cronyism, and just plain old regular theft. Even today, some of the same people are trying to set up another bank. I haven't read their business plan, However, it can't be too different than the normal bank business plan of Collect Lucrative Salaries for doing little work, let isk walk away without monitoring it, seize the remaining isk, then flee into the sunset. Tom, **, and Harry depositors don't matter banks, and never will. It's about looking like a big shot and throwing money around. If the actual depositors are considered, they will be robbed, rogered, and **ed of all of their cash. Friends don't let friends put money in banks. Looking at that the spreadsheet the bank put out (Which filled me with mirth by the way, Thank You), I'm not sure that IPO's can even be recommended these days.
Nightjester Noir.	Posted - 2009.08.29 20:14:00 - [491] I am happy to let Ray sort out the E-bank problem, but could he please give us a breakdown on how he intends to make 100b each month if e-bank is trying to get 1.2T isk back within 12 months. From reading the board statement it says that they are currently losing 12B a month and they would save 36B a month from knocking of paying back interest. Does that mean that E-bank would make 24B isk a month, if so this means it will take 50 months to get back the 1.2T isk that is short.
Shaun Klaroh Caldari Universal Fleet Operations	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:03:00 - [492] Edited by: Shaun Klaroh on 29/08/2009 21:05:13 Originally by: Tamega I must say I disagree, many trillions of isk is going to have an effect on the economy, I would not be surprised if some people, faced with the concept of rebuilding what they have spent years on making, quit. I dread to think of how many weeks/months of time I have potentially lost, if all goes tit-up and I lose the lot. Not sure I could do that again Of course it's going to have an impact on the market (not that it was really good anyway with a 60% drop in Titanium values over three months after that 200% hike last year). But the problem would be that if CCP did step in, then CCP would have to step in elsewhere as well. This means that money could be generated out of nowhere when someone says "Boo-hoo, lost a lot of money". Frankly, if it goes belly up, it goes belly up just like any other venture. CCP will just say simply that it was the risk you took in letting someone else manage your money. ----- Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked. "Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles	Posted - 2009.08.29 23:38:00 - [493] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: In Eve, every single player already has access to a perfectly secure place to store unlimited funds. They should change it to the Darkfall Online system: you carry money with you => you will drop it when you are destroyed. This would suddenly make banking look like something very needed. It used to be possible to convert isk into an item in the manner you suggest, but apparently it made laundering too easy. --- 34.4:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.08.30 01:46:00 - [494] Lemme get this straight. To join a 0.0 corp, I have to give my API key to most of the decent ones. To be a dir of most 0.0 corps, I'd have to give my FULL API key. But to be a teller in the EBank, and handle 10s, 100s of BILLIONS of isk, I don't have to give an API Key? Sorry, but you guys should have been useing API keys from the start. Tracking EVERY isk that came in and was going out. sigh..
Triskele Inire	Posted - 2009.08.30 02:03:00 - [495] You have a dog, and I have a cat. We agree that they are each worth a billion dollars. You sell me the dog for a billion, and I sell you the cat for a billion. Now we are no longer pet owners, but Icelandic banks, with a billion dollars in new assets.
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.30 03:55:00 - [496] Originally by: Cors Lemme get this straight. To join a 0.0 corp, I have to give my API key to most of the decent ones. To be a dir of most 0.0 corps, I'd have to give my FULL API key. But to be a teller in the EBank, and handle 10s, 100s of BILLIONS of isk, I don't have to give an API Key? Sorry, but you guys should have been useing API keys from the start. Tracking EVERY isk that came in and was going out. sigh.. Haha, yeah. Not requiring full APIs from most/all of their staff and BoD is one of several stupendously ******ed things EBank has done over time.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.30 04:45:00 - [497] Originally by: Proton Power So your saying that the BOD is responsible for making sure that every isk gets paid that is in every account with the interest that they signed up for? Then why is there talks of liquidating accounts for lower amounts and why is interest cut off by the BOD. Now if your going ot cut interest off thats fine, but then people should be able to withdrawl isk. The Board will do what the Board decides to do. This is not a public democracy. You should know enough by now that trying to engage me from this angle isn't going to go very far. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
BigBank Hank	Posted - 2009.08.30 06:33:00 - [498] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Proton Power So your saying that the BOD is responsible for making sure that every isk gets paid that is in every account with the interest that they signed up for? Then why is there talks of liquidating accounts for lower amounts and why is interest cut off by the BOD. Now if your going ot cut interest off thats fine, but then people should be able to withdrawl isk. The Board will do what the Board decides to do. This is not a public democracy. You should know enough by now that trying to engage me from this angle isn't going to go very far. So seriously, how much of the missing 450B did you embezzle in the form of loans to your alts? You might want to spend some of it on a new character you'd have more credibility here that way.
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.08.30 07:52:00 - [499] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: Proton Power So your saying that the BOD is responsible for making sure that every isk gets paid that is in every account with the interest that they signed up for? Then why is there talks of liquidating accounts for lower amounts and why is interest cut off by the BOD. Now if your going ot cut interest off thats fine, but then people should be able to withdrawl isk. The Board will do what the Board decides to do. This is not a public democracy. You should know enough by now that trying to engage me from this angle isn't going to go very far. lol, over one trillion in debt and it's still "not a public democracy". Fascinating. -L
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.30 07:56:00 - [500] Originally by: Lecherito lol, over one trillion in debt and it's still "not a public democracy". Fascinating. -L No democracy in the real world extends the power of the public just because they are in deficit. Why? Because the public doesn't know what's best for them. And they don't know everything, making them unable to make the best possible decision.
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.08.30 08:00:00 - [501] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Lecherito lol, over one trillion in debt and it's still "not a public democracy". Fascinating. -L No democracy in the real world extends the power of the public just because they are in deficit. Why? Because the public doesn't know what's best for them. And they don't know everything, making them unable to make the best possible decision. Is it not more than clear by now that anyone affiliated with Ebank clearly doesn't know what's best for the investors? Yet the few still retain the right to decide what's best for the many? Yes, I see the logic in this. -L
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.30 08:20:00 - [502] /dons her Masonry hat Quote: Why? Because the public doesn't know what's best for them This is a kind of thought I'd not expect off someone of your age. Perhaps Shar was right with the groupthink idea? Anyway, while "the public" are indeed usually too imbecile to understand their own needs, it's quite "peculiar" (not to use other words) to pretend to keep such arcane knowledge for a restricted circle and it made for many history disasters doing so. It does not sound like it did a lot of good in EvE as well, as the recent events show. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.30 08:32:00 - [503] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha This is a kind of thought I'd not expect off someone of your age. Perhaps Shar was right with the groupthink idea? I'm sorry that you take a philosophical argument, intended for provocation, like you did. My point was to suggest that people outside of EBANK might not have the perspective to make an informed call on what's right to do. Lets take an example: Being able to get your isk back at a % loss. In theory it's an extremely great idea. But if the projection at the % of the ISK being gone from EBANK isn't correct, they have ripped themself off from some %.
MonwrathDisortium Incarnation of Evil	Posted - 2009.08.30 09:17:00 - [504] I dont know what my fascination with this thread is. I suppose watching the people who ganked the iskes try to explain it away over and over, while the poor morons who gave their money to a group of people for such a small return that it was laughable to begin with amuses me. What posses someone who was adept enough at eve to acquire billions to hand said billions over willingly? I really do want to know how these poor saps justified it to themselves. I suppose it doesnt matter, all that is left to do is wait for the inevitable "all your bases are belong to us" announcement.
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.08.30 10:40:00 - [505] Ray, in december 2008 Ricdic was secretly buying capital BPO for Orca production. Are you aware of those transactions?
The ChurchWarden	Posted - 2009.08.30 10:59:00 - [506] So however many absurd amount of pages we are into the thread I'd like to point something out that may or may not have crossed peoples minds. Ricdic the former head of Ebank had atleast one account banned and stopped playing to my knowledge maybe not. I would assume that as the head of Ebank he had considerable Ebank assets on his characters for the purpose of generating profit. It is commonly known he has researchers / construction / trading alts. Perhaps a large portion of Ebank's wealth is locked up in assets it no longer has access to without Ricdic's accounts. Thats not to say that I think Ebank was Ricdics private piggy bank but since it is the BoD's responsibility to generate income it wouldn't surprise me to find that several BoD members has BPO's, Mineral stores, whatever on their accounts to do this. Unless Ricdic returned all Ebank assets when he left that could account for a large chunk of debt.
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:01:00 - [507] Originally by: The ChurchWarden So however many absurd amount of pages we are into the thread I'd like to point something out that may or may not have crossed peoples minds. Ricdic the former head of Ebank had atleast one account banned and stopped playing to my knowledge maybe not. I would assume that as the head of Ebank he had considerable Ebank assets on his characters for the purpose of generating profit. It is commonly known he has researchers / construction / trading alts. Perhaps a large portion of Ebank's wealth is locked up in assets it no longer has access to without Ricdic's accounts. Thats not to say that I think Ebank was Ricdics private piggy bank but since it is the BoD's responsibility to generate income it wouldn't surprise me to find that several BoD members has BPO's, Mineral stores, whatever on their accounts to do this. Unless Ricdic returned all Ebank assets when he left that could account for a large chunk of debt. This ^^ the only thing that I know for sure though is that most assets ric played with when I was with EBANK, were in the corp hangers and delivery hangers so that either of us had access at all times. I can't say if he continued this after I left or not.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:10:00 - [508] Originally by: The ChurchWarden So however many absurd amount of pages we are into the thread I'd like to point something out that may or may not have crossed peoples minds. Ricdic the former head of Ebank had atleast one account banned and stopped playing to my knowledge maybe not. I would assume that as the head of Ebank he had considerable Ebank assets on his characters for the purpose of generating profit. It is commonly known he has researchers / construction / trading alts. Perhaps a large portion of Ebank's wealth is locked up in assets it no longer has access to without Ricdic's accounts. Ricdic had all his accounts banned. And the option that he might have had more assets than accounted for on his account is not unconsidered. But we can't tell.
The ChurchWarden	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:14:00 - [509] Has anyone tried asking him? Which brings up a curious point. Has Ricdic been contacted at all to attempt to piece together records despite his possible falling out with the entire staff? Can you share if this has been attempted?
Scott Ryder Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:15:00 - [510] Did ebank give 380 billion isk in loans without having collateral cover?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:17:00 - [511] Originally by: Scott Ryder Did ebank give 380 billion isk in loans without having collateral cover? Yes. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
parnassius	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:24:00 - [512] Originally by: Ray McCormack Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. What you don't take into account is the fact that you cannot guarantee this this will happen and i believe a lot of people will probably be happy to have 50% of the balance on the account now than the hope to get everything in an year. The Trust people have in you has obviously deteriorated, why we should trust you once again? I have almost 1B in your bank, i would prefer to take 500M out today and reinvest it myself for a profit than leave it to you to manage. You (EBANK) have a record of poor management, what guarantees you offer us? None that's why you froze our assets leaving us like this. People should have a choice from several options proposed. This is not great. And btw i agree on all the people saying that who put money on game bank run like this is an idiot. That's how i feel at the moment and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one .
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:26:00 - [513] I have some ISK invested in EBANK and while I would rather have it back I can survive its loss. I was initially annoyed at the somewhat arbitrary nature of the decision to suspend all with drawals with no option for liquidation or consultation but am not worrying about it now for two reasons: 1. There is a (small) chance that I amy get my money back 2. There is absolutely nothing I can do about it Assuming the BoD are genuine in their attempts to fix things there two most likely outcomes, I believe, are: 1. The BoD try their best but as time goes on it doesn't work, eventually they drift off or burn out until the whole thing dies and no ISK is returned. 2. Repairs are made and money generated till the bank opens again - at this point there is a run, it closes and the cycle repeats. Regardless I suspect that EBANK in its current form is dead. That saddens me as I always thought it was a nice idea in a game like this. EBANK may continue to exist as a smaller entity - who knows but it will not be the same thing. Offering a (partial) liquidation option now would have been a much higher risk strategy that would either have seen confidence partially restored or EBANK gone completely the current strategy will proling its life but probably dooms it in its current incarnation.
The ChurchWarden	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:26:00 - [514] I really doubt they can return even 50% I'd guess more in the realm over 30% or lower so will you accept 300m for your 1bn? I still think people continuing to say they want X% is silly what they should be doing is saying what % they're not willing to accept below should it liquidate. That would be more beneficial to the board I'm hoping.
Arilla Chinchilla Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:38:00 - [515] /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC WORM! Get out of my Bio!
steveid Viziam	Posted - 2009.08.30 11:49:00 - [516] Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC beautifully put and completely right.
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2009.08.30 12:18:00 - [517] Originally by: steveid Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC beautifully put and completely right. I take it then that neither of you ever buy anything or in fact leave station?
Captain Ortega	Posted - 2009.08.30 12:45:00 - [518] Originally by: Cordin Hamir Originally by: steveid Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC beautifully put and completely right. I take it then that neither of you ever buy anything or in fact leave station? So... What you're saying is that in order to undock or buy anything, I have to give EBank my ISK?
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2009.08.30 12:54:00 - [519] Originally by: Captain Ortega Originally by: Cordin Hamir Originally by: steveid Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC beautifully put and completely right. I take it then that neither of you ever buy anything or in fact leave station? So... What you're saying is that in order to undock or buy anything, I have to give EBank my ISK? No but I am pointing out that there is risk in everything in Eve. I put money in EBANK knowing it was a risk, I just liked the idea of an in game bank. I go out and pvp, mission, mine, trade or whatever else knowing that I might get my ship and pod popped, be scammed or lose money. Everyone has the right to make their own choice on the risks they take. Folks continually making snide remarks becuase they did not choose a particular risk is neither mature nor helpful.
Captain Ortega	Posted - 2009.08.30 13:18:00 - [520] That goes back to the whole "Don't invest what you can't afford to lose."
Scott Ryder Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.08.30 13:26:00 - [521] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Scott Ryder Did ebank give 380 billion isk in loans without having collateral cover? Yes. Hmmm may I ask why? Until you resolve the issues you have infront of you, I am looking to buy all the evebank capital I can @ 20 percent of its bank value. Would such an action be ok with eve bank? Im looking to invest 10 - 20 b -> into 25 percent of the value if evebank can validate that the accounts contains are valid and transfer me the contains? Im also willing to keep that isk on lock for atleast a year.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.30 13:28:00 - [522] Originally by: Scott Ryder Hmmm may I ask why? Sure, but I couldn't give you an answer. Stupidity perhaps. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Scott Ryder Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.08.30 13:29:00 - [523] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Scott Ryder Hmmm may I ask why? Sure, but I couldn't give you an answer. Stupidity perhaps. Understood, Ray are you ingame? I wish to discuss something with you if you could lend me 2 minuts of your time?
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.08.30 14:12:00 - [524] This is b**locks - if people want their money back at 50% or 30% of it's original value they should get it back. This is the kind of rubbish we're used to seeing in RL banking, your desire to preserve this endeavour is nothing to do with getting peoples money back, it's about preserving your cash cow with its corporate wage structure, bonuses and prestige. THERE IS NO REALISTIC CHANCE OF YOU PEOPLE GETTING YOUR MONEY BACK - Ebank want to preside over 2 or more years more failure before they announce it's all over because there is profit in that for them. Make these people come clean about what is left and then divide it up, it's the best chance anyone has got of getting anything. The only other explanation as to why they won't give people their cash back is that IT'S ALL GONE - how better to conclude a massive scam than to muddy the waters about whether or not it was a scam or not. Suggest there is a chance not everyone involved is dirty, pick a scapegoat and unload ALL the blame on that one individual. The rest of the conspirators can continue to function within the community because the community believes they are trying to make ammends and were not complicit in the scam. The whole thing will be old news in a few months and all the conspirators can meet up for drinks and a back slapping session. They got away with all the money, only one person got the blame and the rest of them came out of an awful situation with their reputations and their wealth intact. Anyone see any RL parallels here?
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.08.30 14:21:00 - [525] Originally by: parnassius Originally by: Ray McCormack Regarding calls to liquidate the bank now and just pay out what we have, here are some sums. If you had 3b in your bank account, we could at best allow you to withdraw 50% of that now. You could then re-invest that 1.5b and at 5% compounded per month it would take a year and a half to get back up to your 3b. We're offering to do the same thing for you. What you don't take into account is the fact that you cannot guarantee this this will happen and i believe a lot of people will probably be happy to have 50% of the balance on the account now than the hope to get everything in an year. The Trust people have in you has obviously deteriorated, why we should trust you once again? I have almost 1B in your bank, i would prefer to take 500M out today and reinvest it myself for a profit than leave it to you to manage. You (EBANK) have a record of poor management, what guarantees you offer us? None that's why you froze our assets leaving us like this. People should have a choice from several options proposed. This is not great. And btw i agree on all the people saying that who put money on game bank run like this is an idiot. That's how i feel at the moment and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one . One very important point about investing. example. If I had 10B in EBANK and you gave me 5B. It would be pretty easy for me to earn 20% on the 5B per month through trading if not more. It is likely I could replace the lost 50% in 3-6 months. Now that small amount is completely different to earning returns on 800B, or which is 500B is fixed in the Titan program and loans. You can't really trade with the rest, so it is likely to only return 5% per month and that will take well over a year. People can do much better with a small anmount in total return than huge amounts of capital. This has been pointed out many times including EBANK and DBANK boards. As the ISK gets higher the returns get lower.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.30 15:32:00 - [526] Quote: Ricdic had all his accounts banned So, how comes that he both posted in game in SCC-lounge and on the forums after the ban? http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1115635/page/1 Quote: So... What you're saying is that in order to undock or buy anything, I have to give EBank my ISK? The wrong part in EvE is not that thru big efforts a group of players can create a bank (with all the risks involved), but that you can consider your ISK safe when in your wallet. It should be robb-able and stealable like everything else (as in other games), then you'd begin appreciate risky but not riskier solutions. Quote: The only other explanation as to why they won't give people their cash back is that IT'S ALL GONE Google / wikipedia "NAV". As for the rest of the post: by giving those guys the money, it's been accepted the risk of them just walking off with it without a thank you. They are bothering answering to questions and flames and even saying they'll return all the money back. It's much more than they are obliged to do, which is ... zero and thanks for the fish. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.30 15:33:00 - [527] Does Ebank intend to provide employee salaries during this frozen period? Or will salaries continue to be frozen as well?
Arilla Chinchilla Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.08.30 15:35:00 - [528] Originally by: Cordin Hamir Originally by: steveid Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC beautifully put and completely right. I take it then that neither of you ever buy anything or in fact leave station? Brainless Statement. If you were stupid enough to invest or deposit isk into e-bank, then your just plain an idiot like I said. Yes you 'took a gamble' but you know what? Gambling favors the house. Always. And only fools do it thinking they will come out ahead somehow or won't lose and will be rich. The ones who get rich gambling are the ones that own the house, not the dumbasses that gamble in it. AC WORM! Get out of my Bio!
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.08.30 16:56:00 - [529] Originally by: Solisk Does Ebank intend to provide employee salaries during this frozen period? Or will salaries continue to be frozen as well? Salaries will continue to accrue for staff, but will only be paid once the bank achieves full liquidity and then some. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
jacobius neutrineaux	Posted - 2009.08.30 18:35:00 - [530] the freeze on withdrawals i understand. the non-payment of promised interest is not, however, acceptable. in fact, a higher rate of return should be offered for the inconvenience. doing so would assuage much angst. and it is unlikely to slow the recovery significantly. and even if it all fails, it is only "paper" at present anyway. give me a reason to be happy letting you have my isk for a year, and i will still be with you when the dust settles.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.30 19:06:00 - [531] Originally by: jacobius neutrineaux give me a reason to be happy letting you have my isk for a year, and i will still be with you when the dust settles. Because EBANK wants to give you 100% of the cash in your account instead of 30%. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.30 19:07:00 - [532] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Solisk Does Ebank intend to provide employee salaries during this frozen period? Or will salaries continue to be frozen as well? Salaries will continue to accrue for staff, but will only be paid once the bank achieves full liquidity and then some. Has the policy to keep account interest frozen for, roughly, 12 months with no accrued interest been changed then? It doesn't seem fair that the very same people who let this financial crisis escalate should profit if the account holders, who have their isk effectively held hostage, don't stand to gain anything either. I believe it was Kazzac who asked if transfers between Ebank accounts would still be active, but I think I missed the reply.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.30 19:08:00 - [533] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: jacobius neutrineaux give me a reason to be happy letting you have my isk for a year, and i will still be with you when the dust settles. Because EBANK wants to give you 100% of the cash in your account instead of 30%. What about what the account holders want? I'm not sure that the Ebank Board of Directors and ranking staff is addressing this issue, and haven't addressed it in a long time.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.30 19:10:00 - [534] Originally by: Solisk Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Solisk Does Ebank intend to provide employee salaries during this frozen period? Or will salaries continue to be frozen as well? Salaries will continue to accrue for staff, but will only be paid once the bank achieves full liquidity and then some. Has the policy to keep account interest frozen for, roughly, 12 months with no accrued interest been changed then? It doesn't seem fair that the very same people who let this financial crisis escalate should profit if the account holders, who have their isk effectively held hostage, don't stand to gain anything either. I believe it was Kazzac who asked if transfers between Ebank accounts would still be active, but I think I missed the reply. As I understand it, staff and directors will be paid last and only when the Bank is healthy again. Customers must have a chance to withdraw cash and have access to that before EBANK staff and directors can touch their cash. Also, if it's worth anything...when EBANK does return to a place where it can pay salaries I won't be accepting one. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.30 19:14:00 - [535] Originally by: Solisk Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: jacobius neutrineaux give me a reason to be happy letting you have my isk for a year, and i will still be with you when the dust settles. Because EBANK wants to give you 100% of the cash in your account instead of 30%. What about what the account holders want? I'm not sure that the Ebank Board of Directors and ranking staff is addressing this issue, and haven't addressed it in a long time. I understand where you're coming from. Although we have frozen accounts, I am aware that there are discussions going on right now internally on how best to unfreeze the accounts when the time comes. The Board does want you to have access to your ISK. While what the public says does matter to EBANK people - they have to use their best judgement at the end of the day in deciding what the Bank should and should not do. I am sorry if this results in disagreements about how the Bank acts. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.08.30 19:36:00 - [536] Originally by: Solisk I believe it was Kazzac who asked if transfers between Ebank accounts would still be active, but I think I missed the reply. I was told that it should and if not to get in touch. My client has yet to get back to me on if it worked or not.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.30 19:45:00 - [537] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Solisk I believe it was Kazzac who asked if transfers between Ebank accounts would still be active, but I think I missed the reply. I was told that it should and if not to get in touch. My client has yet to get back to me on if it worked or not. If you could post back with a confirmation of it working or not, I'd greatly appreciate it.
parnassius	Posted - 2009.08.30 20:15:00 - [538] Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC What is the benefit of a statement like yours? It is not constructive and it makes you look like a irritating child that laugh at someone else's mistakes. This could all be a scam, maybe not, who knows. I liked the idea of a bank organized by players and run properly, i saw it as a innovative way to play computer games. I can afford to loose the money i put in there, for this i'm criticizing the approach at the solution of problem, more than the institution that is EBANK . Everybody makes mistake, every ship destroyed every day is the consequence of a mistake, every bad deal made and so on, mistakes make the game exciting because allow you to improve. So shut your gob and prove how good you are with action not with petty, cheap smack talk.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.08.30 20:43:00 - [539] Question: Account holders have no say in the running of the bank because putting mony in ebank is not investing, it is just like putting mney in a bank. So accounts are not a risk bearing entity (except for scamming of course) When Ricdic stole it was stated he stole ebank isk not accountholder isk. Board members are personally responsible for the situation as it stands now Accounts are frozen Intrest on intrest bearing accounts is suspendend But reservations on salaries and management fees are still made but will be suspended untill such time as the bank is once more solvable. This is unfair and these statements are in my opinion in contradiction. I could accept reservations for saleries to non board member employees. But a reservation for the suspended intrest should be made as wel and it should be payed to account holders before further (mis?)management fees should be awarded to the people in charge.
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2009.08.30 21:24:00 - [540] Originally by: Dr Lebroi T The only other explanation as to why they won't give people their cash back is that IT'S ALL GONE - how better to conclude a massive scam than to muddy the waters about whether or not it was a scam or not. Suggest there is a chance not everyone involved is dirty, pick a scapegoat and unload ALL the blame on that one individual. Lots of current and former EBank BoDs are trying as hard as they can to hint that Riddic stole it all. It's not working. Because: (1) They explicitly hired someone to act as a whistleblower who explicitly blew the whistle. The BoD manged to convince everyone it was a personality conflict, or a conflict over policy & procedures. Which it was actually, the whistleblower objected to the "policy and procedure" of allowing Riddic to do anything with no reporting or oversight. (2) They are already on record as stating that Riddic stole 250B. in cash, and 250B in a no-collateral loan to his buddies who defaulted, and everything was just rosy with EBank. (3) Riddic left 2 1/2 months ago. I haven't seen their answer to why it takes 2 1/2 months to notice that EBank has less than 1/2 of the cash it should, or to realize that massive massive projects are entirely gone, or that if the ballance sheets are to be believed, then EBank has never ever made a profit on anything.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:00:00 - [541] Originally by: Yendor Widdershins (1) They explicitly hired someone to act as a whistleblower who explicitly blew the whistle. The BoD manged to convince everyone it was a personality conflict, or a conflict over policy & procedures. Which it was actually, the whistleblower objected to the "policy and procedure" of allowing Riddic to do anything with no reporting or oversight. The current BoD is not chaired entirely by the same people as were around then. There are few old timers who need to slink away as fast as they can (while they can) but truth be told it is a very different board. Let me also add: I'm no saint but I've never let personality clashes or spite influence my statements or judgments. This is not to say I don't sometimes want to curse people out. I just do it away from Eve. I point this out because it was not just eBank BoD who said it was "personality conflicts". A fair number of drama bombers and trolls did a far better job of discrediting me. Of course now the same tards are bombing and trolling now. Originally by: Yendor Widdershins (3) Riddic left 2 1/2 months ago. I haven't seen their answer to why it takes 2 1/2 months to notice that EBank has less than 1/2 of the cash it should, or to realize that massive massive projects are entirely gone, or that if the ballance sheets are to be believed, then EBank has never ever made a profit on anything. Two part question here so two separate answers to be given: First, the total confusion in the records made it damn near impossible for a fast auditing to take place. Add in that much of what had been going on had been run through or by Ricdic alone... hard to figure out where what was what. At this time the report(ing) only accounts for what assets, isk, and resources that eBank can physically get their hands on. These resources account for what equity has been reported. As has been stated elsewhere, by someone who really should just crawl into a corner and shut up, the reports that we are working with is a assets and liabilities report. It is not a cash flow report. A proper cash flow report is nigh to impossible to generate for any time prior to Ric's leaving since most of the data requires information that Ric may, or may not, have in his possession. Secondly, there is good reason for it taking so long for this decision to be made: The people who could've made it are cowards. Look at how shamelessly they dumped eBank CEO on the "nice person" in eBank so that they duck out of the line of fire. Even before Ray joined eBank to assist them I had been recommending this action. I thought that it was only just and proper for all transactions to be on hold until a full and proper accounting of the bank was completed. The enormity of that choice required more backbone than most at eBank have so they dithered around avoiding any real decisions. Even when Ray became chairman I'm not sure what the internal discussions were. I just know that one day Ray contacted me (via MSN) asked me my thoughts (without any coaching from him). I told him what I said above. I'm glad eBank is run by someone with the strength of character to do the right unpopular thing. For too long eBank has been run by "celebrities" instead of "professionals". Now that there's a professional at the top things can get back on track. Yes, that last part is opinion based and not objective in the least. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:10:00 - [542] I should also point out, to avoid confusion, that I'm not a member of eBank. I am however a founder and as such people still contact me for spot advice here and there. I also enjoy forum privileges that allow me access to areas reserved for staff members (though I rarely read there). So I have a bad habit of blurring the lines on my position when I say "we" when referring to eBank. Regardless of what's happened I still helped make eBank. I'll always be available to them no matter what happens simply because I don't want it to fail any more than most. The sad thing is that "character" is something that people here either can't recognize or can't refrain from trying to destroy. Loyalty and honesty does exist regardless of how many of you simply don't have it in you. I guess the real reason it is so hard to find good qualities in people is that so many losers muddy the waters with trolling and character assassinations. To me it's like: "I can't be good so I'll make sure no one else has a chance or motivation to be good either." If you ****s, the public at large, didn't vilify good people and praise bad ones perhaps things would be different. Of course if yall weren't so ****ed the thought wouldn't have to be said in the first place so I guess there will be no change. Hmmm... I think it is time for another self imposed vacation as my ability to stomach mass ignorance is being sorely taxed yet again. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:14:00 - [543] Originally by: HawkBlade As has been stated elsewhere, by someone who really should just crawl into a corner and shut up, the reports that we are working with is a assets and liabilities report. Or you could just threaten to EMO quit again and have Athre fight yoru battles with block again right?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:27:00 - [544] Shar does the above text mean you have been called in, to figure out WTF is going on in the bank? If so, and if you are left doing what needs to be done, there's still hope. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:28:00 - [545] Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla Originally by: Cordin Hamir Originally by: steveid Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla /me points and laughs. Idiots. The only safe place for your isk is YOUR wallet. Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? If you did, if you actually BELIEVED it was anything other than a scam just contract all your stuff to me now, send me all your isk, cancel your x100 accounts and go outside and smoke a bowl then throw yourself in front of a moving vehicle because you REALLY are too stupid to live! AC beautifully put and completely right. I take it then that neither of you ever buy anything or in fact leave station? Brainless Statement. If you were stupid enough to invest or deposit isk into e-bank, then your just plain an idiot like I said. Yes you 'took a gamble' but you know what? Gambling favors the house. Always. And only fools do it thinking they will come out ahead somehow or won't lose and will be rich. The ones who get rich gambling are the ones that own the house, not the dumbasses that gamble in it. AC Rude, unpleasant and ill informed - classic Eve forum stuff. I like the idea of Eve banks and was willing to take an acceptable risk on it. If you dont like a particular path or risk then that is fine - I have no quibbles with that, but to come on the forums and spout rude inanities about others choices is somewhat childish. Nothing you have said is in any way constructive, useful or even meant to be vaguely helpful - it is simply a gloat based on your personal views.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:36:00 - [546] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 30/08/2009 22:36:06 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 30/08/2009 22:35:52 Quote: Rude, unpleasant and ill informed - classic Eve forum stuff. I like the idea of Eve banks and was willing to take an acceptable risk on it. If you dont like a particular path or risk then that is fine - I have no quibbles with that, but to come on the forums and spout rude inanities about others choices is somewhat childish. Nothing you have said is in any way constructive, useful or even meant to be vaguely helpful - it is simply a gloat based on your personal views. I suggest you avoid replying to flamers, trolls and idiots. They outnumber you, outmuscle you and are impenetrable to any hope of redemption. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yendor Widdershins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:45:00 - [547] Originally by: HawkBlade helpful stuff Thanks for the clarification. It's reassuring to know that you are back, at least to the point of being able to figure out what is going on. I also don't understand why certain people are going on about lost profits. Hypothetically, if CCP itself gave iron-clad proof that EBank had once made gobs of profit, all it means is that EBank is missing even more than the known 1.2 trillion isk.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:57:00 - [548] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Shar does the above text mean you have been called in, to figure out WTF is going on in the bank? If so, and if you are left doing what needs to be done, there's still hope. No. That is Ray's job and from where I sit he's done a bang up job in the short time he's been at eBank. (Why this is a surprise given Ray's history totally stumps me!) Originally by: HawkBlade As has been stated elsewhere, by someone who really should just crawl into a corner and shut up, the reports that we are working with is a assets and liabilities report. Originally by: Proton Power Or you could just threaten to EMO quit again and have Athre fight yoru battles with block again right? Well tbh I was talking about Hexxx. I'd honestly like to ask you what is it with the trolling? I mean it's bad enough you do it via MSN to people. Since I have you blocked I guess you have to come here and start your drivel. But since you asked, it's not EMO quitting. MD can get along fine without me and I most assuredly can get along fine without it. So sometimes I choose that option. See, believe it or not, the MD is not the end all of Eve. Unlike yourself I was "someone" prior to these forums and I intend to be worthwhile, in and of myself, without them. Of course another fringe benefit of not reading these boards is not seeing you demean yourself with these cheap shots. Sad when the only thing you can say about a person is that they are someone else's dingleberry. Tragic to see someone fall so far, even if self inflicted. PS: Are you sure you are not Ricdic in disguise? The compulsive but self destructive need to troll unwarranted is so like him. Guess that's why you two got along so well. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Kaden Solari Caldari XIII Interstellar Legion	Posted - 2009.08.30 23:17:00 - [549] I am so glad i decided not to deposit anything into Ebank sorry to all who lost monies to this.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.31 00:12:00 - [550] The number one PR damage control lesson I have learned is that you need to be clear in your plan when you go public, if it is vague people are going to assume the worst. Right now, there are massive gaps and unknowns, and people are painting a picture of what is in between. They start getting the tin foil hats out and run worst case scenarios through their head. Then things get out of control, accusations begin and people start freaking out. From a PR point of view, this is out of control right now. The restructuring plan needs to be opened for public review and comment with a schedule. I think a month or 6 weeks to cut deals and a full review will be made of all plans, so that depositors have time to comment in an orderly fashion and come to terms with what needs to be done. If you want to cut a deal, you need to set the table for it, and it has to be beneficial to all parties or the deal will not work. EBank needs to cut a deal. You also need to clearly explain what EBank will be when its all over, I doubt it will be much of a bank, frankly its a BPC and manufacturing outfit right now, its not acting like a bank. That vision of what EBank is and will be is not clear right now, and I see no path forward for it continuing to be a bank. If you envision something for EBank, you need to explain how that will happen. I would also like to see most of the BOD fired and employees as well, unless you can personally vouch for them. If you can't, they need to go. Bring your own people in and take over the operation. Lock it down and make sure everything is secure. If you are going to get the blame, you may as well get the benefit as well, and you should pay yourself for this. If people are going to leak inside information and get ****y on the forums, dump all the info and get it over with so that this doesn't drag on for months. Former insiders have a responsibility to shareholders even if they are no longer with the bank, they ought not damage the banks prospects for survival, which is what they are doing. Frankly you should institute a forum ban and call on all current and former insiders to stop talking on the forums. If people refuse, they should be exterminated.
Betty Rhage	Posted - 2009.08.31 01:15:00 - [551] Saved 1 of 2 - Betty
Betty Rhage	Posted - 2009.08.31 01:16:00 - [552] saved 2 of 2 - Betty
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.08.31 01:19:00 - [553] Originally by: Tesal The restructuring plan needs to be opened for public review and comment with a schedule. Why this isn't the strategy, it's common sense? There are interesting posts popping up in parallel threads with people offering to buy up accounts, with eBank staff raising no objection, if anything encouraging the chatter. It almost appears as though the goal is to get a "bailout" from investors keen to buy up accounts on the cheap, and perhaps mute some of the screaming. How many of the new buyers will be invited to the eBank BoD if that goes ahead? Originally by: Tesal I would also like to see most of the BOD fired and employees as well, unless you can personally vouch for them. If you can't, they need to go. Bring your own people in and take over the operation. Lock it down and make sure everything is secure. If you are going to get the blame, you may as well get the benefit as well, and you should pay yourself for this. Frankly you should institute a forum ban and call on all current and former insiders to stop talking on the forums. If people refuse, they should be exterminated. Agreed. The majority of the BoD is guilty of gross negligence. If Ray wants them to stay, it would be interesting to know why, given that the problem has been mainly caused by their oversight. If it's due to past hard work and commitment, that's commendable, but has no place in a business venture that has failed on this scale. If withdrawls and interest are frozen, there's an obvious need to shrink the staffing levels anyway. I'm surprised to see so few of the board posting, either a forum gag is already in place or resignations are being staggered. Either way, if they're to stay, there should be public apologies from each board member if they want to preserve their reputation (which I doubt we will see). Or post to confirm whether they will accept liaibilies for the losses investors will incur. It would be very intersting to see a retrospective analysis, not only on how much has been paid in salaries, but how much ISK has been generated by eBank employees trading on their association with the bank to enhance personal ventures. In terms of risk, allowing them to remain involved with eBank as it goes through it's next phase opens up a significantly higher risk than the investors signed up to. If the "celebrity" status of being an eBank employee evaporates in the wake of public criticism, what safeguards does the bank have to stop the employees stripping the bank? Or leaving the game altogether due to burnout? A year or more of no-pay work to correct mistakes on behalf of a noisy, ungrateful and highly critical public? Originally by: Tesal If people are going to leak inside information and get ****y on the forums, dump all the info and get it over with so that this doesn't drag on for months. Former insiders have a responsibility to shareholders even if they are no longer with the bank, they ought not damage the banks prospects for survival, which is what they are doing. Frankly you should institute a forum ban and call on all current and former insiders to stop talking on the forums. If people refuse, they should be exterminated. Would like to agree with this but I can't. The bank failed to institute a Code of Conduct for it's staff, an oversight the existing staff pay the price for. The former insiders don't seem overly concerned with the banks survival anyway, and quite honestly, it's more in the public interest to see this thrashed out in the open. Will certainly serve as a warning to future investors, or anyone with any faith in eBank going forward as a viable bank.
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.08.31 01:23:00 - [554] Originally by: HawkBlade I should also point out, to avoid confusion, that I'm not a member of eBank. I am however a founder and as such people still contact me for spot advice here and there. I also enjoy forum privileges that allow me access to areas reserved for staff members (though I rarely read there). So I have a bad habit of blurring the lines on my position when I say "we" when referring to eBank. Regardless of what's happened I still helped make eBank. I'll always be available to them no matter what happens simply because I don't want it to fail any more than most. The sad thing is that "character" is something that people here either can't recognize or can't refrain from trying to destroy. Loyalty and honesty does exist regardless of how many of you simply don't have it in you. I guess the real reason it is so hard to find good qualities in people is that so many losers muddy the waters with trolling and character assassinations. To me it's like: "I can't be good so I'll make sure no one else has a chance or motivation to be good either." If you ****s, the public at large, didn't vilify good people and praise bad ones perhaps things would be different. Of course if yall weren't so ****ed the thought wouldn't have to be said in the first place so I guess there will be no change. Hmmm... I think it is time for another self imposed vacation as my ability to stomach mass ignorance is being sorely taxed yet again. This guy is a dramachav that just misses the spotlight. You, miss, need to get over yourself. -L
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.31 02:39:00 - [555] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel ...The bank failed to institute a Code of Conduct for it's staff, an oversight the existing staff pay the price for... Everyone who is in a position like this has a fiduciary responsibility to investors/shareholders. You don't need a contract or a written code of conduct to know this. Their duty is to act on the behalf of other people, and for this they were paid. If they fail in this, they are breaking their contract with investors, the unwritten contract, which was, "we will give you isk and let you make money off our money if you in return act for our benefit". Anyone who fails in this should be punished.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.31 02:41:00 - [556] Originally by: Betty Rhage Edited by: Betty Rhage on 31/08/2009 01:36:09 Edited by: Betty Rhage on 31/08/2009 01:32:42 So I will let the community show how it feels. I have started accepting offers for the rest of the data, including character names of people involved. Everything I can give you without breaking the rules or the the game TOS will be yours to either hoard and resell, or simply post here for others to know; Whatever you do.. I am not a part of it. At first I was thinking about talking the bids in eve-mail, but the fact is I dont want to sort this all out or deal with this any more than I have to. So I have created a public action contract to deal with it; It will expire in one week. I hate to do it this way, and am sure I am going to lose some real life friends over this, but they could not have been very good friends and I have a lot of isk created from a lot of hard work and effort on my part, and I want to at least get some of my Principal back. Please make bids in game via the auction contract that I have created in the Hadaugago solar system; I put one bullet in it for each of the names you will be given. The big bullet is the big one. Oh, and it cost me 10mil to make so you should know I am serious. Sounds like bull**** to me. I think you are using this opportunity to extort money from EBank. Name names or shut the hell up.
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.31 02:58:00 - [557] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Shar does the above text mean you have been called in, to figure out WTF is going on in the bank? If so, and if you are left doing what needs to be done, there's still hope. No. That is Ray's job and from where I sit he's done a bang up job in the short time he's been at eBank. (Why this is a surprise given Ray's history totally stumps me!) Originally by: HawkBlade As has been stated elsewhere, by someone who really should just crawl into a corner and shut up, the reports that we are working with is a assets and liabilities report. Originally by: Proton Power Or you could just threaten to EMO quit again and have Athre fight yoru battles with block again right? Well tbh I was talking about Hexxx. I'd honestly like to ask you what is it with the trolling? I mean it's bad enough you do it via MSN to people. Since I have you blocked I guess you have to come here and start your drivel. But since you asked, it's not EMO quitting. MD can get along fine without me and I most assuredly can get along fine without it. So sometimes I choose that option. See, believe it or not, the MD is not the end all of Eve. Unlike yourself I was "someone" prior to these forums and I intend to be worthwhile, in and of myself, without them. Of course another fringe benefit of not reading these boards is not seeing you demean yourself with these cheap shots. Sad when the only thing you can say about a person is that they are someone else's dingleberry. Tragic to see someone fall so far, even if self inflicted. PS: Are you sure you are not Ricdic in disguise? The compulsive but self destructive need to troll unwarranted is so like him. Guess that's why you two got along so well. Since we are throwing out blatant lies now, lets take one at a time. 1. I dont think I have ever had you as an MSN contact, so even if you have me blocked I wouldnt know it. Looking through my MSN Buddy list I dont' see you on it. 2. Trolling via MSN, hmm I have not talked to any EBANK BOD via MSN for well over a month now until yesterday when 2 of them contacted me. I sent 1 msg to Athre to wish her weell with the current situation when I read about it. And every so often say hi to Hexxx, but rarley talk about EBANK. 3. Somone before these forums? Maybe I misunderstand the comment but I think we are all someone before even Eve existed, Eve is just a game, somthing I like to try and enjoy, actually about a month ago I came to realize I am not even enjoying it as mch as I have prior, which is why I won't be playing much longer, but I will always be somone ;) as you will be as well. You dont read these forums, then how is it your one account is banned on them, and you reply to my post and many others? Yes I am sure I am not ric, considering he is in Australlia atm, while I am in Virginia. And yes I do get along with him for the most part because he undesrstands what I dont think you do, this is a game.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.08.31 03:33:00 - [558] Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Shar does the above text mean you have been called in, to figure out WTF is going on in the bank? If so, and if you are left doing what needs to be done, there's still hope. No. That is Ray's job and from where I sit he's done a bang up job in the short time he's been at eBank. (Why this is a surprise given Ray's history totally stumps me!) Originally by: HawkBlade As has been stated elsewhere, by someone who really should just crawl into a corner and shut up, the reports that we are working with is a assets and liabilities report. Originally by: Proton Power Or you could just threaten to EMO quit again and have Athre fight yoru battles with block again right? Well tbh I was talking about Hexxx. I'd honestly like to ask you what is it with the trolling? I mean it's bad enough you do it via MSN to people. Since I have you blocked I guess you have to come here and start your drivel. But since you asked, it's not EMO quitting. MD can get along fine without me and I most assuredly can get along fine without it. So sometimes I choose that option. See, believe it or not, the MD is not the end all of Eve. Unlike yourself I was "someone" prior to these forums and I intend to be worthwhile, in and of myself, without them. Of course another fringe benefit of not reading these boards is not seeing you demean yourself with these cheap shots. Sad when the only thing you can say about a person is that they are someone else's dingleberry. Tragic to see someone fall so far, even if self inflicted. PS: Are you sure you are not Ricdic in disguise? The compulsive but self destructive need to troll unwarranted is so like him. Guess that's why you two got along so well. Since we are throwing out blatant lies now, lets take one at a time. 1. I dont think I have ever had you as an MSN contact, so even if you have me blocked I wouldnt know it. Looking through my MSN Buddy list I dont' see you on it. 2. Trolling via MSN, hmm I have not talked to any EBANK BOD via MSN for well over a month now until yesterday when 2 of them contacted me. I sent 1 msg to Athre to wish her weell with the current situation when I read about it. And every so often say hi to Hexxx, but rarley talk about EBANK. 3. Somone before these forums? Maybe I misunderstand the comment but I think we are all someone before even Eve existed, Eve is just a game, somthing I like to try and enjoy, actually about a month ago I came to realize I am not even enjoying it as mch as I have prior, which is why I won't be playing much longer, but I will always be somone ;) as you will be as well. You dont read these forums, then how is it your one account is banned on them, and you reply to my post and many others? Yes I am sure I am not ric, considering he is in Australlia atm, while I am in Virginia. And yes I do get along with him for the most part because he undesrstands what I dont think you do, this is a game. <--- MD these days
Information Broker	Posted - 2009.08.31 04:06:00 - [559] 75billion in salaries.. I think I speak for everyone here... wtf?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.31 05:14:00 - [560] Quote: First thing: Not all Ricdic's accounts are banned. He is still affiliated with Ebank using accounts paid with stolen isk and is using various other internet connections so he can not be easily tracked by CPP/Concord when he logs on. You don't just walk away from this game, it consumes you, and once you put so much time into something you cant just let it go.. so he did not. That's funny. He talked to me on messenger yesterday, saying that all accounts that weren't banned, were under the same email address. So why would he go out of his way to use other internet connections? Quote: Second: The data I have says that he was not the only person involved in RMT in EveBank. Did you report this to a GM? Quote: EveBank was regularly used to launder and store money from RMT from both the Russian and Asian operations EBANK has been proactive about trying to prevent RMT. But it would be foolish to think that EBANK was free from RMT. Quote: mostly the ones that work out of the drone regions and deep Russian space, and EveBank took a big hit in the recent bans where money and items being sold in secondary trade operations in Jita from EveBank assets was banned along with accounts used in RMT. .... because a lot of evebank capital assets in storage/transition/etc where lost when these accounts where banned. Wow. Get your tinfoil hats everybody. Having said that, despite the fact that I think that your conclusions are wrong, I'd still like to hear what you think you have. Trust me when I say that everybody at EBANK hates RMT, as it's a major headache. Selling information which ought to be brought to the light of a GM is immoral.
species2143	Posted - 2009.08.31 07:51:00 - [561] Originally by: LaVista Vista EBANK has been proactive about trying to prevent RMT. But it would be foolish to think that EBANK was free from RMT. How many customers did EBANK report to GM's for suspected RMT? Originally by: LaVista Vista Having said that, despite the fact that I think that your conclusions are wrong, I'd still like to hear what you think you have. I aggree that this sounds like total BS yet your personal opinion about conclusions drawn are irrelevant in the light of the incompetence shown by EBANK BoD of which you are part. Originally by: LaVista Vista Trust me when I say that everybody at EBANK hates RMT, as it's a major headache. Selling information which ought to be brought to the light of a GM is immoral. Trust?! You're kidding right? Also lecturing about the morality of his handling coming from any EBANK BoD member sounds at the very least hipocritical. TL;DR Your credibility is gone, get over it and back-up your argumentations like anyone else
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.31 08:06:00 - [562] Originally by: Proton Power Or you could just threaten to EMO quit again and have Athre fight yoru battles with block again right? PP F You. Shar never asked, instructed or coerced me to talk with Block. I in my own being, upset at jerks (like Block) who had nothing better to do than hound and attack someone who did nothing but alert the general populace of MD or anyone else who would bother to listen, and the thanks he got was to be kicked in the guts repeatedly... someone whom I care about. Yes, that was ME who decided Block needed a piece of MY MIND. Get your facts straight. Your comment also makes me wonder if you have a heart in that military body of yours. Do you? You dont present it. You'll remember I asked if Block, Poison and yourself knew people who cared too much. I believe the three of you answered yes, sure, definitely. Yet here you go again, showing that you dont and wont be supportive of people who actually do care and give a damn.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.31 08:07:00 - [563] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Shar does the above text mean you have been called in, to figure out WTF is going on in the bank? If so, and if you are left doing what needs to be done, there's still hope. No it means as a Founder he has made himself available to current Bank employees for consultation and historical information.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.31 08:34:00 - [564] Quote: How many customers did EBANK report to GM's for suspected RMT? I'm not allowed to comment on that for obvious reasons. Originally by: species2143 Trust?! You're kidding right? Also lecturing about the morality of his handling coming from any EBANK BoD member sounds at the very least hipocritical. TL;DR Your credibility is gone, get over it and back-up your argumentations like anyone else I'd like to point out that I'm not a director. Also when it comes to sticking to the rules of the game, credibility has NOTHING to do with that.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.31 11:07:00 - [565] Quote: I would also like to see most of the BOD fired and employees as well, unless you can personally vouch for them. If you can't, they need to go. Why do you want to fire Athre? She always did her job (teller) at 100%. I also talked with her for a long time once, and she looks like a nice and efficient person that cares. I can't say the same for almost anyone else. Quote: First thing: Not... Second: The data I have says that he was not the only person involved in RMT in EveBank. So far nothing that is not in the public knowledge. You could get a lot more of your money if you posted _1_ thing that everyone don't know yet. Quote: I'm surprised to see so few of the board posting, either a forum gag is already in place They have prohibited to the staff to post beyond some authorized names. As stated previously. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:08:00 - [566] Vaerah, if you have any questions I'll be happy answer them. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:13:00 - [567] Originally by: Athre Originally by: Proton Power Or you could just threaten to EMO quit again and have Athre fight yoru battles with block again right? PP F You. Shar never asked, instructed or coerced me to talk with Block. I in my own being, upset at jerks (like Block) who had nothing better to do than hound and attack someone who did nothing but alert the general populace of MD or anyone else who would bother to listen, and the thanks he got was to be kicked in the guts repeatedly... someone whom I care about. Yes, that was ME who decided Block needed a piece of MY MIND. Get your facts straight. Your comment also makes me wonder if you have a heart in that military body of yours. Do you? You dont present it. You'll remember I asked if Block, Poison and yourself knew people who cared too much. I believe the three of you answered yes, sure, definitely. Yet here you go again, showing that you dont and wont be supportive of people who actually do care and give a damn. This again points to what I said above, this is a Game and you take it way to serious. My military and my personal life have don't revolve around Eve, my personal relationshipos don't revolve around Eve. Support what, that your missing close to 2 trillion isk? How do you want me to support that?
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:33:00 - [568] Originally by: Information Broker 75billion in salaries.. I think I speak for everyone here... wtf? Yep. Returning those funds should be among the first orders of business. Clearly they were not earned. I'm thinking of starting an over/under on how mnay days it will be until the ebank website is no longer available. Any takers?
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:48:00 - [569] Originally by: Athre Shar never asked, instructed or coerced me to talk with Block. I in my own being, upset at jerks (like Block) who had nothing better to do than hound and attack someone who did nothing but alert the general populace of MD or anyone else who would bother to listen, and the thanks he got was to be kicked in the guts repeatedly... someone whom I care about. Yes, that was ME who decided Block needed a piece of MY MIND. Get your facts straight. Your comment also makes me wonder if you have a heart in that military body of yours. Do you? You dont present it. You'll remember I asked if Block, Poison and yourself knew people who cared too much. I believe the three of you answered yes, sure, definitely. Yet here you go again, showing that you dont and wont be supportive of people who actually do care and give a damn. Athre, I'm being very objective in this investigation. FACT: Shar was an EBANK founder and part of the BOD. While the investigation continues, I would prefer to keep our conversation private. I still got more questions for you. I'll be online tonight around 0:00 eve time. Thanks for your cooperation. Regards, Block Ukx BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:06:00 - [570] Edited by: Hexxx on 31/08/2009 13:08:42 Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Athre Shar never asked, instructed or coerced me to talk with Block. I in my own being, upset at jerks (like Block) who had nothing better to do than hound and attack someone who did nothing but alert the general populace of MD or anyone else who would bother to listen, and the thanks he got was to be kicked in the guts repeatedly... someone whom I care about. Yes, that was ME who decided Block needed a piece of MY MIND. Get your facts straight. Your comment also makes me wonder if you have a heart in that military body of yours. Do you? You dont present it. You'll remember I asked if Block, Poison and yourself knew people who cared too much. I believe the three of you answered yes, sure, definitely. Yet here you go again, showing that you dont and wont be supportive of people who actually do care and give a damn. Athre, I'm being very objective in this investigation. FACT: Shar was an EBANK founder and part of the BOD. While the investigation continues, I would prefer to keep our conversation private. I still got more questions for you. I'll be online tonight around 0:00 eve time. Thanks for your cooperation. Regards, Block Ukx Ricdic, myself, and LaVista were working on EBANK before a Board existed. The first Board of Directors was hand picked by Ricdic and myself. Ricdic, myself, and LaVista were the founders....existing before a Board of Directors. Ricdic had the idea, LaVista did the proof of concept, I wrote the software we launched with. The Board was mostly a construction formed by Ricdic and myself...at my insistence. As Ricdic is now gone - I am your next best option. If you'd like to go after the architect, I invite you to do so. EBANK - Advisor \| www.eve-bank.net
Master waka	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:19:00 - [571] Hi i have some questions i would like answered. I am a customer of Ebank who currently has almost all his isk frozen XD I would like to know in as much detail as possible what each person on the Ebank pay role did...I mean you acquired 75 billion isk and it seems like not one of you knew what was going on the past 18 months...i mean really not one of you kept any data, on anything, it was all just "lost" with the theft? So what did you guys do exactally the past 18 months, cause you sure didnt keep track of poop. It is also very hard to understand how a company with 2 trillion isk made little to no money over 18 months, but if they freeze all customer accounts they can make all the isk back in a year, how is this going to work really? What do you actually have planed if anything. What are each of you doing at this moment to get the customers their is back? It seems like you all have ideas and a whole bunch of nothing happening to accomplish them. - master waka p.s. i hope this doesnt sound angry, or mean, i just want answers and a realistic plan of action.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:41:00 - [572] Quote: Vaerah, if you have any questions I'll be happy answer them. I don't know what to ask, sincerely. If I had a work related with EBANK to do, I'd have a need for details, but since I don't (and can't take, I am off to hospital tomorrow morning)... Quote: and it seems like not one of you knew what was going on the past 18 months...i mean really not one of you kept any data, on anything, it was all just "lost" with the theft? Well, this would be one question... I am sure that from the lowliest L1 missioneer to the highest T2 BPO owner with 50 POSes everywhere, all of them have some track, something to not get lost, to not get in negative. I have read multiple explainations about EBANK not having the "resolution" to see where the precise money went. But what about the tens of billions? Quote: i hope this doesnt sound angry, or mean, i just want answers and a realistic plan of action The plan, if any, is going to come in about 1 month. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Master waka	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:43:00 - [573] so they freeze everything an will maybe have a plan of something in 30 days, this is a joke.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:51:00 - [574] Originally by: Master waka so they freeze everything an will maybe have a plan of something in 30 days, this is a joke. No, it was a joke till Ray joined them. Now it's not a joke, but the former joke's resulting tragedy. 1 month to rebuild the missing accounting, the missing credits, the unpaid loans, the un-recoverable collateral... it's even tight schedule. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.08.31 14:01:00 - [575] Oh Ben Bernanke, where are you when we need you?
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.08.31 14:29:00 - [576] All digital items are and will remain the intellectual property of CCP ("CCP") based in Reykjavik, Iceland and are subject to EVE-Online EULA. This has gone far enough - the whole ebank system was obviously functioning as a fromt for RMT, perhaps not from the start, but if you've got 2 trillion isk available to you it's a pretty strong willed person who doesn't start to calculate what this is worth in dollars. It's no longer justifiable for CCP to claim that the activities of Ebank are 'in-game' therefore beyond intervention. It's clear now that their activities stretch beyond the game and into the real life arena. Those iskies belong to CCP, it's time for them to take them back and provide some help for all the folk that have been shafted. Perhaps the only reason they are not getting involved now is that the whole debacle would be a logistical nightmare to administrate. CCP have got no idea who is owed what and they certainly wouldn't be getting any details from Ebank as it sounds like Ricdic took all the paperwork with him.
Master waka	Posted - 2009.08.31 14:49:00 - [577] sounds like their wasn't any paper work to begin with, the whole ebank board had their head up their butt the past 18 months, but if we give them 12 more fantastic things will happen =D
Felix Jugo	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:25:00 - [578] Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? Care to place a wager on that? I'm offering odds that EBANK will survive. I'm looking for a bid at 75%. I'm offering to give you 25M now in exchange for 33.333M of your locked up EBANK account. That's the best deal you're going to hear all day. Tiny amounts of money, but it's a way of making a statement. How sure are you that it's a scam? 90% sure? Then bet me 250M of your EBUCKS against my 25M cash. I'll take that bet, but you'll have to bid me down first.
rsol Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:48:00 - [579] I for one have been pretty lucky as i just started investing in your scheme. As a new investor i can tell you that an deposits i had planed have now stopped cold. You will not receive any more money from me as its simply dumb for me to do so. your "service" has now denigrated a simple money holding company. you give no interest for my investment so, 0% means 0 point. I say this as an individual but i suspect i am not the only one. I understand you have got yourselves a s41t sandwich here, understood. But we (the investors) don't give a monkeys if you are having problems sorry. we put money in to get money out. That was the deal. As on your website your directors and CEO have made some bad loans, really bad. stupid loans would really describe it. sorry but loaning with no collateral and then crying about defaulters isn't going to win anyone any favours. You are not even asking us to trust you, we have no choice. if this was a bank in RL most of you would be under investigation and would warrant prison time for the irresponsibility. Even Northan rock did not freeze interest or withdrawals. You dont have a government to bail you out, granted. However the way the situation is being dealt with is compacting the lack of trust and is merely setting you up for a bank run when you open the accounts again. i say meet us in the middle. If you give 0.7% interest and allow for 50% withdrawals you give the choice to the customer. if you cannot meet this then I suggest you liquidate and pay through your own money. That's right the directors ect have made some nice money working for this corp but have 0 liability. Some of the people with 20 bill or more in their accounts probably use this interest to buy their game time codes. so some of these people are now having to use real money to keep their accounts afloat. this is a liability issue we have done nothing except invest money into your corp. You will receive no more money from myself or anyone i meet. I will advise them against such a fool hardy venture. The people investing many billions have another option. WARDEC. This is the other option for you. ignore the demands of your investors and i suspect you may have your assets seized by force. This is not a veiled threat from myself but something for you to consider. people wardec for less. 50-50 guys.....meet us in the middle and we may come back. but waiting 12 months and hoping it will all work out is a pipe dream. Im not trying to be mean just honest.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:53:00 - [580] Originally by: Dr Lebroi It's no longer justifiable for CCP to claim that the activities of Ebank are 'in-game' therefore beyond intervention. It's clear now that their activities stretch beyond the game and into the real life arena. I agree with this! No longer can EBANK hide ingame. It's time to take it into real-life and share a few beers with CCP at Fanfest, and laugh at how silly Ricdic was for doing RMT, which landed him a few bans. I'm attending Fanfest for sure
Partenope Gallente Vesuvio Corp	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:54:00 - [581] Originally by: rsol I for one have been pretty lucky as i just started investing in your scheme. As a new investor i can tell you that an deposits i had planed have now stopped cold. You will not receive any more money from me as its simply dumb for me to do so. your "service" has now denigrated a simple money holding company. you give no interest for my investment so, 0% means 0 point. I say this as an individual but i suspect i am not the only one. I understand you have got yourselves a s41t sandwich here, understood. But we (the investors) don't give a monkeys if you are having problems sorry. we put money in to get money out. That was the deal. As on your website your directors and CEO have made some bad loans, really bad. stupid loans would really describe it. sorry but loaning with no collateral and then crying about defaulters isn't going to win anyone any favours. You are not even asking us to trust you, we have no choice. if this was a bank in RL most of you would be under investigation and would warrant prison time for the irresponsibility. Even Northan rock did not freeze interest or withdrawals. You dont have a government to bail you out, granted. However the way the situation is being dealt with is compacting the lack of trust and is merely setting you up for a bank run when you open the accounts again. i say meet us in the middle. If you give 0.7% interest and allow for 50% withdrawals you give the choice to the customer. if you cannot meet this then I suggest you liquidate and pay through your own money. That's right the directors ect have made some nice money working for this corp but have 0 liability. Some of the people with 20 bill or more in their accounts probably use this interest to buy their game time codes. so some of these people are now having to use real money to keep their accounts afloat. this is a liability issue we have done nothing except invest money into your corp. You will receive no more money from myself or anyone i meet. I will advise them against such a fool hardy venture. The people investing many billions have another option. WARDEC. This is the other option for you. ignore the demands of your investors and i suspect you may have your assets seized by force. This is not a veiled threat from myself but something for you to consider. people wardec for less. 50-50 guys.....meet us in the middle and we may come back. but waiting 12 months and hoping it will all work out is a pipe dream. Im not trying to be mean just honest. I agree 100% with you. I believe we will never see our money again, amen. -You cannot make a revolution with silk gloves. -Joseph Stalin (1879-1953)
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:59:00 - [582] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Dr Lebroi It's no longer justifiable for CCP to claim that the activities of Ebank are 'in-game' therefore beyond intervention. It's clear now that their activities stretch beyond the game and into the real life arena. I agree with this! No longer can EBANK hide ingame. It's time to take it into real-life and share a few beers with CCP at Fanfest, and laugh at how silly Ricdic was for doing RMT, which landed him a few bans. I'm attending Fanfest for sure On that note... someone should convince Ricdic to attend Fanfest, and have a punching booth... let people pay $5 to punch Ricdic, then use that money to buy timecards. Sell those timecards for isk and voila, money in the bank.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.08.31 16:12:00 - [583] Originally by: Stardust CEO Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Dr Lebroi It's no longer justifiable for CCP to claim that the activities of Ebank are 'in-game' therefore beyond intervention. It's clear now that their activities stretch beyond the game and into the real life arena. I agree with this! No longer can EBANK hide ingame. It's time to take it into real-life and share a few beers with CCP at Fanfest, and laugh at how silly Ricdic was for doing RMT, which landed him a few bans. I'm attending Fanfest for sure On that note... someone should convince Ricdic to attend Fanfest, and have a punching booth... let people pay $5 to punch Ricdic, then use that money to buy timecards. Sell those timecards for isk and voila, money in the bank. I'm not sure whether to laugh at the genius of the idea, or cry that we're joking about hitting people irl for their "video game crime". Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Master waka	Posted - 2009.08.31 16:21:00 - [584] no really what has the board done the past 18 months to justify 75 billion in pay checks, none of them have any idea what happened the past 18 months....why did they get paid, why are they getting paid after ebank gets back on its feet?
Stardust CEO Stardust Manufacturing	Posted - 2009.08.31 16:34:00 - [585] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Stardust CEO Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Dr Lebroi It's no longer justifiable for CCP to claim that the activities of Ebank are 'in-game' therefore beyond intervention. It's clear now that their activities stretch beyond the game and into the real life arena. I agree with this! No longer can EBANK hide ingame. It's time to take it into real-life and share a few beers with CCP at Fanfest, and laugh at how silly Ricdic was for doing RMT, which landed him a few bans. I'm attending Fanfest for sure On that note... someone should convince Ricdic to attend Fanfest, and have a punching booth... let people pay $5 to punch Ricdic, then use that money to buy timecards. Sell those timecards for isk and voila, money in the bank. I'm not sure whether to laugh at the genius of the idea, or cry that we're joking about hitting people irl for their "video game crime". I'm not suggesting we beat him bloody, or even do him any harm. I would, however, wager there are people who would pay just to slug him in the arm. Afterwards, he has a sore shoulder, the bank gets some isk, and we all drink some beer in good old Icelandic fashion.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.08.31 16:35:00 - [586] Originally by: Block Ukx Athre, I'm being very objective in this investigation. FACT: Shar was an EBANK founder and part of the BOD. While the investigation continues, I would prefer to keep our conversation private. I still got more questions for you. I'll be online tonight around 0:00 eve time. Thanks for your cooperation. Regards, Block Ukx Block you are funny.... I tried to speak with you privately and YOU brought me into a public channel. Proton you are funny too... do you think you get to pick and choose when YOU get to be serious and the rest of us dont? Kettle black? :)
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.08.31 16:37:00 - [587] Originally by: Master waka no really what has the board done the past 18 months to justify 75 billion in pay checks, none of them have any idea what happened the past 18 months....why did they get paid, why are they getting paid after ebank gets back on its feet? The answer Ray probably can't give you: because ebank doesn't have them by the nuts. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:46:00 - [588] Originally by: Athre Originally by: Block Ukx Athre, I'm being very objective in this investigation. FACT: Shar was an EBANK founder and part of the BOD. While the investigation continues, I would prefer to keep our conversation private. I still got more questions for you. I'll be online tonight around 0:00 eve time. Thanks for your cooperation. Regards, Block Ukx Block you are funny.... I tried to speak with you privately and YOU brought me into a public channel. Proton you are funny too... do you think you get to pick and choose when YOU get to be serious and the rest of us dont? Kettle black? :) You may have me there, but then again I don't owe the community 2 trillion isk so I can be a bit more relaxed about it. Even while being investigated by BLOCK
Jazz Scotch	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:56:00 - [589] Originally by: Felix Jugo Originally by: Arilla Chinchilla Seriously people, knowing the nature of EVE did you expect this to be anything other than a well organized long duration scam? Care to place a wager on that? I'm offering odds that EBANK will survive. I'm looking for a bid at 75%. I'm offering to give you 25M now in exchange for 33.333M of your locked up EBANK account. That's the best deal you're going to hear all day. Tiny amounts of money, but it's a way of making a statement. How sure are you that it's a scam? 90% sure? Then bet me 250M of your EBUCKS against my 25M cash. I'll take that bet, but you'll have to bid me down first. sit back none believers, I will buy your bank accounts for .1 isk on the isk. I will end up giving up the game if the solution to this problem is not favorable, and may be help some players. This is ofcorse a limited offer.
Bryg Philomena Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.08.31 19:34:00 - [590] Ray, I have read 10 pages and it is a heavy burden you carry. I do not know what I would do in your position. I think an option may be to offer liquidation for 10% or so of the NAV of accounts. Move the rest of the isk from the accounts into a locked wallet similar to sweep. It gathers no interest and continues to sit in your coffers to rebuild the bank. It remains locked until everyone who did not take the liquidation option is repaid. Perhaps in the future, roughly 18 months down the line, begin repayment at 10% of the remaining isk in those accounts a month. This allows current customers who want their isk immediately are satiated currently, but ultimately get all their isk back. They write it off at a lost and get a pleasent surprise nearly 2 years down the line. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Am I reading this correctly? You claim you have a bug that undresses female avatars??? Your signature
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.08.31 19:45:00 - [591] Originally by: Bryg Philomena This allows current customers who want their isk immediately are satiated currently, but ultimately get all their isk back. They write it off at a lost and get a pleasent surprise nearly 2 years down the line. Such ideas sound good in theory but the truth is that someone, alot of someones, will ***** and moan regardless. With the above, everyone will swear it's a scam outright and drama drama drama. Oh wait... still have the same damn thing anyway. The positive to this particular decision: down the line everyone gets out with as much as possible. Not just a beggared buy out. PS: Since you can't make everyone happy (and you can't) might as well go with the option that goes inline with your beliefs and integrity. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Master waka	Posted - 2009.08.31 20:09:00 - [592] the problem is for 18 months ebank did a whole bunch of nothing making money for anyone let alone themselves and now if we give them a month they may have a something in a year, cause they want to pay everyone back....your right people are going to be ****ed no matter what happens, but its justified. The same people who dropped the ball are trying to pick it back up....if you cant make 1 isk in 18 months with 2 trillion how are you going to make 1 trillion isk in 12 months with 1 trillion? This is the customers isk let them decide what happens with it. Sure people don't know whats best for themselves, but its obvious the board of ebank doesnt know whats best either...lose 1.2 trillion isk in 18 months and nobody knows what happened to it? give the customers what they want.
Cmdr GAT Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.08.31 20:20:00 - [593] Originally by: Master waka the problem is for 18 months ebank did a whole bunch of nothing making money for anyone let alone themselves and now if we give them a month they may have a something in a year, cause they want to pay everyone back....your right people are going to be ****ed no matter what happens, but its justified. The same people who dropped the ball are trying to pick it back up....if you cant make 1 isk in 18 months with 2 trillion how are you going to make 1 trillion isk in 12 months with 1 trillion? This is the customers isk let them decide what happens with it. Sure people don't know whats best for themselves, but its obvious the board of ebank doesnt know whats best either...lose 1.2 trillion isk in 18 months and nobody knows what happened to it? give the customers what they want. Find out who was part of the BoD last 18 months and make them pay for it. Like Cosmo suggested, you can add their names to thieves of eve list (this will exclude those who just joined to clean the mess). Don't trust any IPO or other venture initiated by these people. From my perspective (outsider perspective), Ray is trying his best to pay back full but that may not happen. He can't make isk out of thin air (well he can if CCP steps in).
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2009.08.31 20:27:00 - [594] What are you all still doing here?? I told you four pages ago that all the isk is gone, the jig is up and you can all go home... The only thing left here are the last minute scams that can be pulled to fleece the remaining isk out of the pockets of sheep who were fully shorn and who insist on standing here naked and shivering, while blinking stupidly into their empty feed bowls.
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2009.08.31 20:33:00 - [595] Originally by: Bryg Philomena Ray, I have read 10 pages and it is a heavy burden you carry. I do not know what I would do in your position. I think an option may be to offer liquidation for 10% or so of the NAV of accounts. Move the rest of the isk from the accounts into a locked wallet similar to sweep. It gathers no interest and continues to sit in your coffers to rebuild the bank. It remains locked until everyone who did not take the liquidation option is repaid. Perhaps in the future, roughly 18 months down the line, begin repayment at 10% of the remaining isk in those accounts a month. This allows current customers who want their isk immediately are satiated currently, but ultimately get all their isk back. They write it off at a lost and get a pleasent surprise nearly 2 years down the line. They spend 2 years losing 1,200,000,000,000 and somehow you think they gonna make all back in the next 18 months? Somebodys not living in the real world here.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2009.08.31 20:59:00 - [596] Originally by: Roguehalo They spend 2 years losing 1,200,000,000,000 and somehow you think they gonna make all back in the next 18 months? Somebodys not living in the real world here. There is also potentially a large amount of isk made in ebank that has disappeared along with the 1.2T net loss. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics	Posted - 2009.08.31 21:03:00 - [597] Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: Roguehalo They spend 2 years losing 1,200,000,000,000 and somehow you think they gonna make all back in the next 18 months? Somebodys not living in the real world here. There is also potentially a large amount of isk made in ebank that has disappeared along with the 1.2T net loss. Potentially? I think "obviously" would have been a better word choice. :)
Master waka	Posted - 2009.08.31 21:09:00 - [598] I think all of the BOD are scammers you have 15+ peeps who are paid to do a job for 18 months and not a one of them has any clue as to where our money went, not one of them noticed they were not making any isk, they get to pull their isk out before the freeze, and they will not give back a % of the money cause they want to give it all back regardless what we want.?
Sytoru Hiroshyma SkillzKillz	Posted - 2009.08.31 22:18:00 - [599] Waka, enough already. It was you that gave almost all your ISK to people you didn't know to look after away from your view. It is frankly embarrassing to see the lack of intelligence being displayed, not just by yourself, within this thread. People need to actually read what is being written by those in current control of EBank rather than latching onto the little bits and pieces and crying blue murder about it whilst ignoring the rest. Let's make this clear: Yes, directors were allowed to remove ISK that they had deposited before the accounts were frozen. However, that ISK had been placed within the accounts (zero interest ones) by those directors when they knew that things had gone **** up. Ray took the decision that, whilst the gesture of trust and belief by those directors was to be welcomed, he would allow people to reconsider and withdraw this gesture. The result? Some did, but only just over half of the ISK deposited was reclaimed. Let me restate this once more: The ISK that the directors were allowed to remove from their (zero interest) accounts was ISK that wouldn't have been in there if things weren't looking so screwed. The fact of the matter is that the ISK that the directors personally dumped in there was only a tiny fraction of what was missing and would in no way have enabled EBank to continue anyway. Now consider that only half of that money was reclaimed anyway. Those people that are currently running EBank and trying to sort out the mess that they have been landed with are not those that got it into this position. You think that EBank is currently being run by the full BOD? I certainly don't. At the moment it will be being run as a dictatorship with responsibilities for specific tasks being assigned to the directors. Simple as that. I'm also incredulous (although with rational thought I really feel I shouldn't be) that we have seen people claiming that the current situation will result in them ceasing their subscription to EVE (I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this person also stored pretty much all their ISK in Ebank) and trying to blackmail their ISK out of the bank and to be honest, Ray's reaction to both was spot on. Actually, I'm rather enjoying all of his responses and I understand exactly what he is doing. How much ISK do my accounts have tied up in EBank? None of your damned business. Does the current situation with EBank affect me and my gameplay? A little, but no biggie. Am I worried about it? Hell no!
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.01 11:02:00 - [600] Edited by: Johnny Ringo on 01/09/2009 11:03:02 Edited by: Johnny Ringo on 01/09/2009 11:02:02 Originally by: Sytoru Hiroshyma Let's make this clear: Yes, directors were allowed to remove ISK that they had deposited before the accounts were frozen. However, that ISK had been placed within the accounts (zero interest ones) by those directors when they knew that things had gone ** up. Ray took the decision that, whilst the gesture of trust and belief by those directors was to be welcomed, he would allow people to reconsider and withdraw this gesture. The result? Some did, but only just over half of the ISK deposited was reclaimed. Let me restate this once more: The ISK that the directors were allowed to remove from their (zero interest) accounts was ISK that wouldn't have been in there if things weren't looking so screwed. Actually this is the most disturbing thing of all. Mismanaging the bank this way in RL would be simple incompetence and would just get the BoD fired. Removing their isk before the accounts were frozen while leaving the rest of us stuck and screwed is more akin to insider trading, which in rl you can go to prison for. We trust ebank and our money's frozen, the guys that **ed it up get to keep theirs. Sorry, but that's just wrong.
species2143	Posted - 2009.09.01 11:06:00 - [601] Well if you trow alot of **** all in one huge pile and wait 100 years it will turn into fertile hill to build a new bank on. Deja-vue anyone?
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame	Posted - 2009.09.01 11:13:00 - [602] come on guys~ i need the money to pay out my lottery first prizes n 4th prizes at least give me the money back ~ after that i will still throw money bk into the bank for investment~ Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Sytoru Hiroshyma SkillzKillz	Posted - 2009.09.01 11:20:00 - [603] Originally by: Johnny Ringo Edited by: Johnny Ringo on 01/09/2009 11:03:02 Removing their isk before the accounts were frozen while leaving the rest of us stuck and screwed is more akin to insider trading, which in rl you can go to prison for. We trust ebank and our money's frozen, the guys that **ed it up get to keep theirs. Sorry, but that's just wrong. I still don't think that you have understood the order in which events happened. Let me try it another way: 1) Ray: Guys, we're pretty *ed right about now. 2) BOD: We have 17Mil, can we help? chucks 45B isk into the bank from personal accounts. 3) Ray: Nice thought guys but that's really just **ing in the ocean. I'm gonna have to freeze all deposits and interest on same. I advise you to take that ISK back again since it's gonna do ** to help. 4) BOD: yoink 23B of 45B isk reclaimed. As for the period of time that elapsed between stages 1 and 4 we don't know because nobody has asked. Christ, it could have been 5 minutes for all we know.
rsol Gallente	Posted - 2009.09.01 11:32:00 - [604] "I'm also incredulous (although with rational thought I really feel I shouldn't be) that we have seen people claiming that the current situation will result in them ceasing their subscription to EVE (I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this person also stored pretty much all their ISK in Ebank) and trying to blackmail their ISK out of the bank and to be honest, Ray's reaction to both was spot on. Actually, I'm rather enjoying all of his responses and I understand exactly what he is doing." I dont see why that is such a difficult thing for you to understand. some ppl have over 20bill in those accounts. Thats enough to pay for their time in eve on the interest. that was going to be my plan. And btw way asking for what you own because you really need it is not blackmail. id wiki that word before you use it again. I dont think this is a scam however i dont believe any directors should have any money in their accounts. That should be defaulted towards repaying what money they have lost. it may make little difference but its called "solidarity". What's gone on here IS exactly what happens in real life. you get paid to oversee and end up golfing your lives away then when you realise the game is up, bail. forget scam. its moronic. maybe some sort of qualification may be needed to be a director on this bank. Maths? Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Now this is me being slightly mean but still honest. This goes to all the ppl that think you are being scammed...why did they even bother to say anything at all? surely this has turned their business into mush just by admitting their losses. If they kept it shut they could have more and more money coming in. withdrawals have ceased, what do you think has happened to the deposits? think it through. Ive met more morons than clever scumbags. please no more scam talk. constructive please. see my previous post. 50-50 give and take ppl.
Sytoru Hiroshyma SkillzKillz	Posted - 2009.09.01 11:47:00 - [605] Don't get me wrong. I can understand people wanting their ISK back - it's the over the top reactions that hit me. As for the blackmail thing, it does mean what I think it means We had something threating EBank with the release of "super secret info of doom(tm)" unless their ISK was returned. Attempting to coerce an individual or group into a certain course of action based on the threat of damaging consequences seems to be a pretty good off the cuff definition and is exactly what happened.
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici	Posted - 2009.09.01 12:10:00 - [606] Quick curiosity question which you may or may not be able to answer (for perfectly valid reasons, aka, CCP rules). Has CCP ever yoinked money out of EBank due to them tracing some of that money to RMT activities? Now, if you are able to answer that question, and if the answer is in the positive, then I'm quite sure the rules prevent you from putting an exact figure on that; however, would you be able to state whether the quantities pulled are significant or insignificant in the context of the losses presented?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.01 12:21:00 - [607] Originally by: Tekota Quick curiosity question which you may or may not be able to answer (for perfectly valid reasons, aka, CCP rules). Has CCP ever yoinked money out of EBank due to them tracing some of that money to RMT activities? Now, if you are able to answer that question, and if the answer is in the positive, then I'm quite sure the rules prevent you from putting an exact figure on that; however, would you be able to state whether the quantities pulled are significant or insignificant in the context of the losses presented? EBANK follows the exact same rules as everybody else. That should answer your question
Sofitia Mourtos Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.01 12:54:00 - [608] I'm a little late for the "party", never the less, I have been looking a bit at the public financial report. Ebank currently has a deficit of around 1013bisk and is (on paper) running with a monthly loss of 10bisk. However with the effective interest rate of 0% on all bank-accounts the bank is running with a monthly profit of 23bisk. As I understand it the ambition is to close the deficit in 12months time. With the current "profit" rate the bank will earn 12*23bisk = 276bisk in that time, so obviously the bank needs to improve current profit-rate by a factor of almost 4. Looking at the income statement I can't help but notice that the bank has 72bisk invested in "other ventures" but they do not seem to provide any income for the bank - could we have a bit more information on these ventures ? Maybe it would be smart to liquidate those ventures and invest the isks in higher profit bearing ventures. All in all it would be great to hear a bit about how the BoD plans to increase the current income level as drastic as is required(?). The bank monthly loss of 10bisk could be greatly reduced if the bank finally closed down the saving accounts (i.e. 3% -> 1.5%) (for the record I personally would not like to have my saving accounts closed - but the time has come), that would lighten the expenses with 7bisk - if the 72bisk in other ventures could be put to good use then its likely that they would be able to provide the remaining 3bisk - and thereby the bank would at least be running a monthly profit ---------------------------------------- WTB: Guardian BPO
Stygian Knight Bannable Offense. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.01 13:08:00 - [609] OMG OMG OMG look at all those tears. This topic is priceless!!! Magnificent scam. Ultimate scam. Excellent play. And good job on milking out the last drop of milk from elite cows with "recovery plan". i love it. Lot of style involved
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.01 13:18:00 - [610] Originally by: Sytoru Hiroshyma Originally by: Johnny Ringo Edited by: Johnny Ringo on 01/09/2009 11:03:02 Removing their isk before the accounts were frozen while leaving the rest of us stuck and screwed is more akin to insider trading, which in rl you can go to prison for. We trust ebank and our money's frozen, the guys that **ed it up get to keep theirs. Sorry, but that's just wrong. I still don't think that you have understood the order in which events happened. Let me try it another way: 1) Ray: Guys, we're pretty *ed right about now. 2) BOD: We have 17Mil, can we help? chucks 45B isk into the bank from personal accounts. 3) Ray: Nice thought guys but that's really just **ing in the ocean. I'm gonna have to freeze all deposits and interest on same. I advise you to take that ISK back again since it's gonna do ** to help. 4) BOD: yoink 23B of 45B isk reclaimed. As for the period of time that elapsed between stages 1 and 4 we don't know because nobody has asked. Christ, it could have been 5 minutes for all we know. True, and that's pretty unfair. While I guess that's Ray's call, I'm disappointed nonetheless that the final withdrawls from ebank for the foreseeable future were the directors pulling some of their own funds out. It simply doesn't give me confidence that returning ebank's customer's money is the BoD's top priority. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dr Lebroi	Posted - 2009.09.01 13:48:00 - [611] Originally by: Stygian Knight OMG OMG OMG look at all those tears. This topic is priceless!!! Magnificent scam. Ultimate scam. Excellent play. And good job on milking out the last drop of milk from elite cows with "recovery plan". i love it. Lot of style involved You got it!
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.01 14:24:00 - [612] AC155 had sole responsible for EBank¦s industrial ventures, correct? Presumably all these ventures were managed outside EBank through one or more corporations, with AC receiving funds from EBank and returning profits to EBank. - What controls were in place on the industrial ventures? - Were the results ever audited? - Are these ventures still active and is AC still responsible for them? - Did AC maintain full accounts for these ventures? - What were the cumulative profits for these ventures until the date EBank defaulted? - If they are still active, what are the anticipated monthly profits from the ventures?
Master waka	Posted - 2009.09.01 14:34:00 - [613] i don't believe they made any audits just kinda went with whatever. Until ray of course.
CornerStoner	Posted - 2009.09.01 14:38:00 - [614] Kudos to Ray for taking this disaster under his wing. I'll admit I didn't bother reading all 22 pages. Banking in EVE is now dead. If you don't agree I suggest you remove your rose colored glasses or consider medication. I'm sure my suggestions/ideas have already been posted, but I'll list them anyways. 1. Close EBank. Permanently. Restructure debt/deposits into shares (real or virtual) of the new holding corp. 2. Close & cannibalize accounts with less than 10k ISK in them. (Think Richard Pryor in Superman3 when he stole all the "half cents") 3. Operate as a industrial corp with the funds left until the balance sheet is resolved. 4. Fire the staff. Why have a staff when the bank is closed and unable to process any actions. If you do have a staff make sure they are willing to use their industry/market slots. 5. Give the new shares a value so that share holders can sell them off at whatever reduced rate they like. I'm sure many would be interested in buying this debt for the possibility of a future profit.
Proton Power Amarr Relentless Construction	Posted - 2009.09.01 15:49:00 - [615] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: Bryg Philomena This allows current customers who want their isk immediately are satiated currently, but ultimately get all their isk back. They write it off at a lost and get a pleasent surprise nearly 2 years down the line. Such ideas sound good in theory but the truth is that someone, alot of someones, will ***** and moan regardless. With the above, everyone will swear it's a scam outright and drama drama drama. Oh wait... still have the same damn thing anyway. The positive to this particular decision: down the line everyone gets out with as much as possible. Not just a beggared buy out. PS: Since you can't make everyone happy (and you can't) might as well go with the option that goes inline with your beliefs and integrity. ^^ This. No matter what Ebank does at this point, a few people will not be happy. Not only does this apply for Ebank but pretty much life in general.
Magnetic Wolf	Posted - 2009.09.01 15:54:00 - [616] unbelievable, they run with the ISK and there are still dozens of players trusting them. LOL!!!!! enjoy your life-long subscriptions and RL stuff.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.09.01 20:12:00 - [617] It seems like everyone is commenting on this thread, so I feel that I must tell everyone what I think even though no one cares :) I have been thoroughly impressed with Ray's conduct. This is not his problem, but he is offering to fix it for you. I would probably stop the personal attacks and ***ing. Maybe you all can *** so much that EBANK decides they will just scam the rest of the 1.2T isk supposedly left in thier posesion. These are the events: 1. Ebank scams 1.2T + isk over the last couple of years. This is by far the most epic scam ever done in the history of EVE.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.09.01 20:42:00 - [618] This is strats continued: 3.If 3rd parties cannot negotiate for everyone wanting to get out, allow customers to take their current assets out of the bank at a specified payout (30%,35%, 50%, etc.) I think that giving the depositors options and let them decide what they would like to do with their isk would quell some of the ***ing and moaning, but also give incentive to keep isk in the bank (by way of the third party investors). Anyway, congrats to the epic scam of the century and hope it will become an even more epic scam (with most of you all completely shirking all responsibility for it) and good luck to Ray with this *** of a debacle. -GV
Auri Hella Downwind Trading Guild	Posted - 2009.09.01 23:48:00 - [619] I saw EBank start, read the first threads a couple years ago and I decided it wasn't for me. Too much ISK in one place for my tastes. I must say I feel pretty good about myself now. This thread is helping a lot with that
Renarri	Posted - 2009.09.04 16:37:00 - [620] So any good news, Ray?
Captain Pompous Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It	Posted - 2009.09.04 16:39:00 - [621] Originally by: Renarri So any good news, Ray? The good news is that the BOD is sitting on what's left of your money and won't let you touch it --- I was going to run for CSM but life waylaid me :(
GentryB	Posted - 2009.09.04 18:42:00 - [622] Edited by: GentryB on 04/09/2009 18:44:45 Sigh, I knew I was going to be taking a few months off game (still active account) so I decided to put my 370 million isk in the bank. Seemed like a good idea. Now I have nothing to come back to and thinking of just quitting game. Hate this ****. GentryD
GentryD Minmatar	Posted - 2009.09.04 18:53:00 - [623] BTW, 370 million may not seem like a lot to you thieves. But it's a lot to me.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.04 19:01:00 - [624] Originally by: GentryD 370 million may not seem like a lot to you thieves. But it's a lot to me. Actually that was my first thought. Specifically that 370m would be enough to quit Eve over. But you are exactly correct, it doesn't make a difference what someone else thinks. It's your isk, you should have access to it. Would you be happy with 30% (or less) of that? Sadly that's the situation the guys at eBank are trying to avoid. Now, all that being said I've got two things to add: 1 - I did warn people about eBank so personally I don't care. 2 - If you are hurt so bad that you are going to quit the game... join the SCC Lounge channel and we can get together for some gang/fleet operations of some sort. Rather help you with a solution that is possible instead of raging pointless at one that will not be solved any time soon. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Tamati Tama	Posted - 2009.09.04 19:17:00 - [625] Originally by: GentryB Edited by: GentryB on 04/09/2009 18:44:45 Sigh, I knew I was going to be taking a few months off game (still active account) so I decided to put my 370 million isk in the bank. Seemed like a good idea. Now I have nothing to come back to and thinking of just quitting game. Hate this ***. GentryD Sigh* Never invest what you cant afford to lose, unless they have a flashy website and seem legit? Quote: I dont see why that is such a difficult thing for you to understand. some ppl have over 20bill in those accounts. Thats enough to pay for their time in eve on the interest. that was going to be my plan. And btw way asking for what you own because you really need it is not blackmail. id wiki that word before you use it again. Weakest thing i've ever heard. I wanted to do the same thing when i first joined, but i realised this: 20bill pays for ONE account in intrest per month. If i can pay for it mining in a cruiser i dont need to invest my only 20bill to make the same. And 1.5% is a really really small number, i might as well just keep it in my wallet and buy a plex a month, which will last that same account 5 years. Im amazed anyone so awful at maths and trusting could make that much money in eve.
Crimsoneer Gallente Knowledge Stick Station	Posted - 2009.09.04 19:26:00 - [626] Interesting fact, their website now doesn't respond.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.04 19:34:00 - [627] Originally by: Crimsoneer Interesting fact, their website now doesn't respond. I was just made aware of that. Trying to find out what's going on. I think the IIS application died.
Havok Pierce Gallente Crushed Ambitions	Posted - 2009.09.04 19:36:00 - [628] Originally by: Crimsoneer Interesting fact, their website now doesn't respond. Looks like either a DoS or theSlashdot Effect effect to me. There are stories on Massively.com and Ars Technica (which were linked by Slashdot) about this now. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.04 20:27:00 - [629] Issue resolved.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council Seposita Astrum	Posted - 2009.09.05 00:19:00 - [630] Originally by: LaVista Vista Issue resolved. While your here, could you plz explain why the website hasnt registered the deposit I made to EVE-Bank shortly after the collapse? I made a deposit to pay back a loan and then found out about an hour later about the whole Ebank accoutn freeze crap. I thought I heard that we were free to withdraw any isk we deposited AFTEr the account freeze? Quick response plz Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
CompTrekkie	Posted - 2009.09.05 00:32:00 - [631] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Originally by: LaVista Vista Issue resolved. While your here, could you plz explain why the website hasnt registered the deposit I made to EVE-Bank shortly after the collapse? I made a deposit to pay back a loan and then found out about an hour later about the whole Ebank accoutn freeze crap. I thought I heard that we were free to withdraw any isk we deposited AFTEr the account freeze? Quick response plz I spent it on booze and cheap hookers!!
jakkut	Posted - 2009.09.05 11:21:00 - [632] Originally by: CompTrekkie Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Originally by: LaVista Vista Issue resolved. While your here, could you plz explain why the website hasnt registered the deposit I made to EVE-Bank shortly after the collapse? I made a deposit to pay back a loan and then found out about an hour later about the whole Ebank accoutn freeze crap. I thought I heard that we were free to withdraw any isk we deposited AFTEr the account freeze? Quick response plz I spent it on booze and cheap hookers!! I hope the booze was expensive! if your gonna @@@@ someones money away do it in style.
Rada Ionesco Caldari Club a Seal	Posted - 2009.09.07 15:06:00 - [633] Well after an hour to calm down to the recent news (yes I only became aware of this bank freeze today, I actually thought these guys had things under control, silly me), I have to say I am still not happy at all with any of this. I also do not feel bad about calling all E-Bank employees idiots in the E-Bank chat. With the exception of the new director/CEO, it appears to be true. How could all this go on for so long without anyone questioning it? Simply put they were either to incompetent to recognize what was happening or to involved (as guilty parties) to make any reasonable attempt at alerting anyone to the facts of the situation. I say seize the directors accounts and add them into the recovery fund. Does anyone think they deserve any better? I don't think they do.
Rada Ionesco Caldari Club a Seal	Posted - 2009.09.07 15:24:00 - [634] Edited by: Rada Ionesco on 07/09/2009 15:31:15 Edited by: Rada Ionesco on 07/09/2009 15:29:34 Another option for all those who are disgruntled would be to unilaterally decalre war on E-Bank and all of it's subsidiaries. LOL. Yes I undertand this childish and gets no one anywhere, but there is allot of that going on this game anyway. I am also finding my self in the group of investors who are not so sure there will be a repayment of locked funds. There is no way to guarantee that. One way to Guarantee the recovery is real would be to contract loans of smaller more managable BPO to investors, that way you could tie their money to these loans. Once the bank is recovered, and has enough capital to allow withdrawls, the loans could revert BPO ownership to E-Bank in excahnge for the a cash amount. While I am guessing the titan BPOs could not cover all deposits, you could cover a percentage of them.
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.07 19:43:00 - [635] Originally by: Rada Ionesco Edited by: Rada Ionesco on 07/09/2009 15:31:15 Edited by: Rada Ionesco on 07/09/2009 15:29:34 Another option for all those who are disgruntled would be to unilaterally decalre war on E-Bank and all of it's subsidiaries. LOL. Yes I undertand this childish and gets no one anywhere, but there is allot of that going on this game anyway. I am also finding my self in the group of investors who are not so sure there will be a repayment of locked funds. There is no way to guarantee that. One way to Guarantee the recovery is real would be to contract loans of smaller more managable BPO to investors, that way you could tie their money to these loans. Once the bank is recovered, and has enough capital to allow withdrawls, the loans could revert BPO ownership to E-Bank in excahnge for the a cash amount. While I am guessing the titan BPOs could not cover all deposits, you could cover a percentage of them. A) EBANK is not a corp that you can wardec. We never undock.... why would we? If you wardec our subsidiaries, you are shooting your own leg. How do you think we are going to make the money back, if you wardec us? Kinda not very logical, is it? B) How would we loan out BPOs to investors, if we are using said BPOs to make the money to repay everyone? Again... not very logical, is it? --------
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.07 19:57:00 - [636] I would like to propose to the Ebank Board of Directors that they allow a public figure, chosen by the public, to sit in on all discussions relating to the recovery of account-holder funds and the future of the bank as an establishment. There is an obvious rift between Ebank and the public at present time and I do believe that Ebank wants to do right by its customers and potentially secure a future for itself. However, public opinion and trust is at an all-time low and there are a lot of people who believe that Ebank is out to serve its own interests. I have fleshed this idea out a bit more, but I wanted to present the idea first in hopes that it will be considered. I even have a pretty good candidate in mind.
Rada Ionesco Caldari Club a Seal	Posted - 2009.09.07 19:59:00 - [637] Originally by: SentryRaven Originally by: Rada Ionesco Edited by: Rada Ionesco on 07/09/2009 15:31:15 Edited by: Rada Ionesco on 07/09/2009 15:29:34 Another option for all those who are disgruntled would be to unilaterally decalre war on E-Bank and all of it's subsidiaries. LOL. Yes I undertand this childish and gets no one anywhere, but there is allot of that going on this game anyway. I am also finding my self in the group of investors who are not so sure there will be a repayment of locked funds. There is no way to guarantee that. One way to Guarantee the recovery is real would be to contract loans of smaller more managable BPO to investors, that way you could tie their money to these loans. Once the bank is recovered, and has enough capital to allow withdrawls, the loans could revert BPO ownership to E-Bank in excahnge for the a cash amount. While I am guessing the titan BPOs could not cover all deposits, you could cover a percentage of them. A) EBANK is not a corp that you can wardec. We never undock.... why would we? If you wardec our subsidiaries, you are shooting your own leg. How do you think we are going to make the money back, if you wardec us? Kinda not very logical, is it? B) How would we loan out BPOs to investors, if we are using said BPOs to make the money to repay everyone? Again... not very logical, is it? I don't know why you would I guess. I don't have twelve accounts like you guys do, so that explains some of it maybe. As far as shooting my self in the leg, the post I wrote stated , maybe not specific enough, it was a trust issue. The premise is that you guys are not to be trusted, so it all comes down to that doesn't it. How am I shooting my self in the leg if I don't trust you to begin with? You would loan them out in the form of a contract for collateral. Once again if you want people to trust you, and not just believe that you are making more money off their money, before the eventual big rip off at the end, you might want to asuage peoples fears that you are honest and back that up with something substantial as in money-or collateral in this case. I guess I wasn't aware that most of ebanks money is made off of these BPOs. I guess I should have learned more about the fine art of Eve banking before I made my arguements, or not been such a dumb ass and trusted you thieves with my money. This is the same way you guys take collateral in case someone defaults on a loan. How is that not logical?
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.07 20:10:00 - [638] Originally by: Rada Ionesco I don't know why you would I guess. I don't have twelve accounts like you guys do, so that explains some of it maybe. As far as shooting my self in the leg, the post I wrote stated , maybe not specific enough, it was a trust issue. The premise is that you guys are not to be trusted, so it all comes down to that doesn't it. How am I shooting my self in the leg if I don't trust you to begin with? Twelve accounts. Terrific number, care to share your source? Can you elaborate on how the trust is in connection to the wardec? Originally by: The same guy You would loan them out in the form of a contract for collateral. Once again if you want people to trust you, and not just believe that you are making more money off their money, before the eventual big rip off at the end, you might want to asuage peoples fears that you are honest and back that up with something substantial as in money-or collateral in this case. I guess I wasn't aware that most of ebanks money is made off of these BPOs. I guess I should have learned more about the fine art of Eve banking before I made my arguements, or not been such a dumb ass and trusted you thieves with my money. This is the same way you guys take collateral in case someone defaults on a loan. How is that not logical? I really do not see what you are suggesting at all... Especially the bolded part. Care to elaborate? --------
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.07 20:28:00 - [639] Originally by: SentryRaven I really do not see what you are suggesting at all... Especially the bolded part. Care to elaborate? If I understand him right, he proposes EBANK should outsource its BPC business to 'trusted' third parties. As EBANK itself cannot be considered to be 'trusted' anymore, this way at least some of the customers' ISK would be in safe hands. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.07 20:49:00 - [640] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton If I understand him right, he proposes EBANK should outsource its BPC business to 'trusted' third parties. As EBANK itself cannot be considered to be 'trusted' anymore, this way at least some of the customers' ISK would be in safe hands. Ah, I see. However, if those trusted 3rd parties then decide to run off with the BPOs/Assets.... we would be in deeper trouble than we already are, c/d? --------
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.07 20:54:00 - [641] Originally by: Rada Ionesco I guess I should have learned more about the fine art of Eve banking before I made my arguements, or not been such a dumb ass and trusted you thieves with my money. I could not have characterized you any better. Thank you. In fact you've accomplished the dumb thing twice over. eBank has no war declarable assets. You can try going after individual employees but truth be told some of them would welcome that given their corporations and alliances. Other than that, truly eBank was designed to remain unassailable by war dec's. Seems that they kept that part while letting everything else go to pot. Originally by: Rada Ionesco The premise is that you guys are not to be trusted, so it all comes down to that doesn't it. How am I shooting my self in the leg if I don't trust you to begin with? A little late for this kind of thinking eh? At this point you, the public, have only one option. Ride it out. I'd point out that you can also ***** and moan on the forums while riding it out but I see that you've already discovered that. Well, at the least you are doing something. Not an intelligent something but something none the less. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
sitar seaton	Posted - 2009.09.07 21:15:00 - [642] Hawkblade sounds like Obama. So my question is: was hawkblade always thinking like this or is he learning the way to trample opposition like our dear leader?
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.07 22:03:00 - [643] Edited by: HawkBlade on 07/09/2009 22:04:27 I don't mind your attempting to troll me mate however could we please keep such things as "local" politics and real life idealogical opinions off the Eve Forums? It's as if we don't have to wade through enough vitriol. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.09.07 22:10:00 - [644] Originally by: Rada Ionesco I don't have twelve accounts like you guys do, so that explains some of it maybe. Point of fact, I have but a single account. I have 1 character I play and 1 character to do EBANK things like withdrawals. Thats it, the alt that sits on my account is logged into maybe twice a year. Please get your facts straight. Thanks :)
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.07 22:26:00 - [645] I have 12 accounts: 1. RL checking account 2. RL savings account 3. RL 529 account 4. RL money market account 5. RL investment account (for playing around with stocks) 6. RL credit card account 7. RL credit card account 8. Ebank checking account 9. Ebank savings account 10. Eve player account 11. Eve player account 12. RL social security account There's prolly a few more random accounts attached to my name such as a Bursar account at grad school or insurance accounts and such. <Amarr's signature>
sitar seaton	Posted - 2009.09.08 03:32:00 - [646] "Well, at the least you are doing something. Not an intelligent something but something none the less." Its as if we dont have to wade through enough vitriol.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:17:00 - [647] After contemplating how much percentage you'd have to earn, I would honestly liquidate the Titan program and put your full port full on hog into manipulation trading using a combination of at least 4-5 people. Spread those folks out over timezones so you can get as much coverage as possible and shoot for the known medium length return items like minerals, moon goo, and ice products. Position yourselves now as you have about a month until patch details start leaking out for the november expansion. Given 700-800b you could conceivably return a spread of max 20% more realistically 12%, as each program or rather individual returns profit funnel that profit into a new individual to seed a new manipulation program. Following this you could add an additional 50b every month. The burn out point for most traders is around the 500b point, this is where it becomes a literal chore even on long term movement item groups. So spread the programs up to around 100-200b a piece. I would project at the least, you could earn the following profit over the next 8 months, with the profit growth starting to level off around month 5 or 6. 100b 130b 180b 230b 280b 300b 310b 320b That nets you a total of 1.8t, more than enough to recover losses and seed the bank into interest giving again, also well ahead of the 12 month schedule. Couple this with account selling, renegotiation, etc... and you could conceivably start business as normal as early as month 4. But you have to act literally right now as the window of opportunity is shrinking pretty damn fast.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.08 18:56:00 - [648] Kazzac, if you check the new balance sheet (as of Sep 8th) it lists assets at 800B with a shortfall of 900+B. 1. The Titan program at 350B will bring in 180B over the next year. If the 90B earned after 6 months from the Titan BPC's is added to the loan porfolio and compounded it can turn 90B into 130B by year end. Total Titan program with reinvestment at end of year 1 is 220B 2. 260 in loans at 6.5% brings in about 200B, if compounded for loans it brings in 233B 3. Other ventures (listed at about 100B or so) return 50-70B (best world). With re-investment of profits into loans (assuming you get them) you can earn about 520B in 1 calender year, assuming you can reinvest ALL profits. With best intentions and an ideal working scenario EBANK could theoretically pay back in about 20 months, with current returns on assets (I don't think Titan's will be worth as much when DD nerf comes in November) and current loan rates!! Customers would be looking at a 100% return in approximately May 2011
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.09.08 19:06:00 - [649] Originally by: cosmoray Kazzac, if you check the new balance sheet (as of Sep 8th) it lists assets at 800B with a shortfall of 900+B Customers would be looking at a 100% return in approximately May 2011 Well shck, this more or less puts the underlined at a pipe dream then. I still say liquidating the Titan program sooner rather than later, that is A LOT of working capital tied up for such a small return. The program made sense when you just could not inflate any long term trading program beyond the burnout point of 500b and you have close to 2t, but at this point they need every working isk they can possibly get. I'd even go so far as to suggest perhaps taking some of the collateral and leveraging it for a loan yourselves is in order.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.08 19:17:00 - [650] There is 485b worth of assets that could be liquidated (or are already liquid) and 325b in outstanding loans or other ventures. Add the fact that mass liquidation would lower asset value and you have a < 485b for any "super" recovery fund, whatever form that takes.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.08 19:21:00 - [651] Originally by: SetrakDark There is 485b worth of assets that could be liquidated (or are already liquid) and 325b in outstanding loans or other ventures. Add the fact that mass liquidation would lower asset value and you have a < 485b for any "super" recovery fund, whatever form that takes. The fact is that EBANK have stated they want to return the money in a year. To do that they need to earn 9.5% across their ENTIRE asset base EVERY month and then COMPOUND it. Their best efforts are only returning 5-7% (Titan and loans will not return more). Liquidating seems to return 40% now. 100% in 1 year is a joke It can't be done in 1 year. There I said it.
Jazz Scotch	Posted - 2009.09.08 21:27:00 - [652] Who is speaking for EBANK, I read all this and I don't see EBANK saying anthing. When are thay going to tell us something. Anything!
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.08 21:30:00 - [653] Originally by: Jazz Scotch Who is speaking for EBANK, I read all this and I don't see EBANK saying anthing. When are thay going to tell us something. Anything! First post? Or www.eve-bank.net? --------
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.08 21:30:00 - [654] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark There is 485b worth of assets that could be liquidated (or are already liquid) and 325b in outstanding loans or other ventures. Add the fact that mass liquidation would lower asset value and you have a < 485b for any "super" recovery fund, whatever form that takes. The fact is that EBANK have stated they want to return the money in a year. To do that they need to earn 9.5% across their ENTIRE asset base EVERY month and then COMPOUND it. Their best efforts are only returning 5-7% (Titan and loans will not return more). Liquidating seems to return 40% now. 100% in 1 year is a joke It can't be done in 1 year. There I said it. Not even if they really, really believe?
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.08 22:44:00 - [655] Originally by: Solisk Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark There is 485b worth of assets that could be liquidated (or are already liquid) and 325b in outstanding loans or other ventures. Add the fact that mass liquidation would lower asset value and you have a < 485b for any "super" recovery fund, whatever form that takes. The fact is that EBANK have stated they want to return the money in a year. To do that they need to earn 9.5% across their ENTIRE asset base EVERY month and then COMPOUND it. Their best efforts are only returning 5-7% (Titan and loans will not return more). Liquidating seems to return 40% now. 100% in 1 year is a joke It can't be done in 1 year. There I said it. Not even if they really, really believe? In a year, many characters with isk currently in accounts will have retired from eve. Don't forget that's hidden wealth they'll be unlocking. And as a bonus, they'll be able to cite it as evidence of the continued trust in the community for continuing to stay with them after they allow withdrawals.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.09 05:25:00 - [656] Originally by: Jazz Scotch Who is speaking for EBANK, I read all this and I don't see EBANK saying anthing. When are thay going to tell us something. Anything! I'm sorry, I don't believe I've missed any questions. What would you like me to comment on? Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.09 09:46:00 - [657] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 09/09/2009 09:46:08 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Jazz Scotch Who is speaking for EBANK, I read all this and I don't see EBANK saying anthing. When are thay going to tell us something. Anything! I'm sorry, I don't believe I've missed any questions. What would you like me to comment on? When are you going to give clear answers to questions asked ? PS: Also, when are you going to run with the money ? --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity	Posted - 2009.09.09 10:50:00 - [658] 22 pages to go, 2nd scandal in the last few months and EVE bank still hasn't learned 2 valuable lessons, 1 - have their members immediately identifiable by the public, and 2 - never smack your investors are you **** up badly. GGG eve-bank. --- I smack just for myself. * Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.09.09 11:53:00 - [659] Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/09/2009 11:53:51 Yeah the smacking of their investors by Usuryist board members is particularly funny. I guess they feel distraught that their hard work (and no doubt RL stress) to get this bank back on an even keel isn't appreciated enough by the plebs. To you plebs - you should be supporting these guys. Sure, they are demonstrably incompetent, sure they are smacking you for wanting your money back, - but to be honest - you deserve it for putting the money in their hands They hate you because you are GREEDY. Look deep into your soul and admit it. You are LOATHSOME. You DESERVE this. Accept this now, and restore balance to your life. SKUNK (o)
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.09.09 12:06:00 - [660] Originally by: cosmoray It can't be done in 1 year. There I said it. I think it can, however specific things need to happen and happen soon. They have the talent sitting there right now (especially with Ray) but there also needs to be some incentive for the staff other than 'don't get associated with this clusterscrew'
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.09 17:16:00 - [661] Originally by: Muad' Dib When are you going to give clear answers to questions asked ? When are you going to ask clear questions? Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Renarri	Posted - 2009.09.09 18:27:00 - [662] I have a question for Ray. Could you highlight or review any tentative plans you and the board are working on. I promise not to hold you to those plans. I would just like to see that ideas are being thrown around. Thank You.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:37:00 - [663] I find the whole EBANK saga to be fascinating. It is too much like real life. A bank looks good on paper, pays out dividends, does its business. Big embezzlement problem, a run on the bank, a change in management and a freeze on accounts, etc., etc. It's very cool stuff, really. One of the reasons that I love Eve. Now, if someone would just implement a credit default swap system... If someone is in college right now and is looking at a topic for an economics paper, this is a perfect opportunity. If someone is working on such a paper, I would love to read it. Also, I find it less fascinating to have my (relatively small) assets frozen, but what can you do. I thought that something like this might happen eventually... That's why I didn't put a whole lot in there in the first place. Anyways. I know that it has been said a lot in the past two weeks already, but best of luck to EBANK. Worst case scenario, you can just take all the money, split it between the board members, buy some fancy ships and head to Rancer for some good fun.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.09 20:53:00 - [664] Quote: Please don't evade the profanity filter, Zymurgist I didn't know the profanity filter had a name.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:43:00 - [665] Originally by: Renarri I have a question for Ray. Could you highlight or review any tentative plans you and the board are working on. I promise not to hold you to those plans. I would just like to see that ideas are being thrown around. Thank You. I'll field this one Things we have on the table and as stated above do not hold me to it but are at various levels of discussion 1) Partial liquidation by entrepreneurs (read: possibly matching up those who want to liquidate with those who want to potentially profit from such an arrangement) 2) Profit streams (various sorts) and the manpower to make it happen. 3) Possibly moving all ISK to sweep accounts 4) A cancel withdrawal button 5) A cancel account button (donate to ebank - zero it out and cancel it)
Lagn Gita	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:00:00 - [666] why not... 6) cancel interest gained button
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:17:00 - [667] How about: 7) Talk to your customers and see what they want
DJ Geist	Posted - 2009.09.09 22:25:00 - [668] Originally by: cosmoray How about: 7) Talk to your customers and see what they want ha! This is the market elite! They are above audits and customer relations. When they do decide to talk to the people who gave them all their isk to play with, they do so in a brusque manner. This earns them further respect from other peers ( peers, but not equals, in their eyes ). If I've learned anything from ebank it's that if you're stubbornly proud long enough you will eventually rally idiots to sympathize with you, even if you are walking away with everyone else's money.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.09 23:44:00 - [669] I can field this one since the answer is the same now as it was two years ago. Originally by: cosmoray 7) Talk to your customers and see what they want Talking here, at the EO forums, is pretty much a waste of time. Too much trolling and drama bombing for there to be any constructive results. Add in: discussing strategic or tactical details (especially here) is suicidal. You could try the eBank forums directly. At least there trolling is kept to a minimum so that discussion can occur. And yes, that's the old answer to the same old question. In this case, nothing changes. The date, the bank, whatever your concerns really is: EO forums are useless where "signal to noise" ration is concerned. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.09.10 03:56:00 - [670] Originally by: cosmoray How about: 7) Talk to your customers and see what they want Please recognize you are one of the vocal minority. As stated the item you want, nea DEMAND (not your choice dude) is on the table still even though the internal feeling is this is not a good fix for our customers.
arjun1	Posted - 2009.09.10 04:12:00 - [671] Edited by: arjun1 on 10/09/2009 04:12:00 still waiting for the list of loan defaulters to be published. whats holding you back?
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.10 04:21:00 - [672] Originally by: Athre Originally by: cosmoray How about: 7) Talk to your customers and see what they want Please recognize you are one of the vocal minority. As stated the item you want, nea DEMAND (not your choice dude) is on the table still even though the internal feeling is this is not a good fix for our customers. When you guys show me your sums that prove you can make 1.2T from your 800B asset base. You need over 8% compounded every month for a year, when your Titan program yields 5-6%, and your loans 5-7%. You will be short. Secondly I think you heritage guys are doing it for emotional reasons, like it will be some big achievement to make EBANK a success once again. You need to think about your customers not yourselves. I am one of many posting my opinions. I browse the EBANK and EO forums and I don't see too many saying "hey keep my money for as long as you like". Show me the 'majority' who think you should carry on as normal with customers cash.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.10 04:35:00 - [673] Originally by: Athre Originally by: cosmoray How about: 7) Talk to your customers and see what they want Please recognize you are one of the vocal minority. As stated the item you want, nea DEMAND (not your choice dude) is on the table still even though the internal feeling is this is not a good fix for our customers. I disagree that he is the vocal minority. There are quite a few people who share his concerns, even if they don't give voice to them. As a highly visible member of the MD community, a lot of people are simply letting him do the speaking. I do feel that he has a valid point. For awhile now, Ebank has made decisions based on what they, the BoD, feel the public needs and any dissent is usually met with a shrug and a collective "there's nothing you can do, it's not your decision". The point that seems to continually be missed is that Ebank has failed the community. While most of the staff members had nothing to do with the financial crisis, they are still responsible for the lack of oversight that facilitated it. I'd also like to mention to numerous assurances given to the public by Ebank on their health and long term viability, which led account holders to continue depositing isk only to have their accounts/interest defaulted on. The bottom line is if Ebank has any glimmer of hope to reemerge as a "successful" institution in Eve, they are going to need to listen to and respect public opinions, opinions, and occassionally demands. I for one advocate a publicly elected "financial watchdog" to sit in on BoD meetings and speak for the active majority. I think that I should clear up that this is not a demand for anything (Demands seem to burn your ass more than anything, Athre ), but rather just one mans opinion.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.10 05:16:00 - [674] Originally by: cosmoray 7) Talk to your customers and see what they want There are a handful of us and thousands of them. They're more than welcome to approach any staff member with their wants and desires, we'll listen and respond accordingly. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
stnylan	Posted - 2009.09.10 06:21:00 - [675] Originally by: cosmoray I am one of many posting my opinions. I browse the EBANK and EO forums and I don't see too many saying "hey keep my money for as long as you like". Show me the 'majority' who think you should carry on as normal with customers cash. Prove that the majority of people want your option cosmoray. You can't.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.10 06:29:00 - [676] Edited by: SetrakDark on 10/09/2009 06:33:59 Originally by: stnylan Prove that the majority of people want your option cosmoray. You can't. To be fair, the burden of proof isn't on cosmo. Someone made a direct quantifiable statement, which he demanded proof for. There's no onus on him to prove the opposite.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.10 12:26:00 - [677] Let's see how far we can take this bit of silliness. Originally by: SetrakDark To be fair, the burden of proof isn't on cosmo. Someone made a direct quantifiable statement, which he demanded proof for. There's no onus on him to prove the opposite. He was called a "minority". Cosmo is one (1) of thousands thus, ergo, and qed he is a minority. To assert that his opinion is the majority (which I'll explain why I doubt it soon) requires proof. Why I doubt that any of Cosmo's opinions are shared by the majority? Cosmo's opinions are always well thought out seeking balanced solutions. The majority of people, yeah you reading this, are not so intelligent or reasonable. Mind you just because I have high respect for Cosmo's opinions does not mean I think his is ever the only one available in any given situation. PS: Cosmo, simply I think you should honestly get together with the eBank guys and add your unique bit of thunder to their brainstorming. I can tell you, the answers you seek will not be forthcoming from this venue. Trust me. (Spare me the trolling on those last words - I'm not culpable in this disaster.) See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:13:00 - [678] Well I'm not going to get into a ****ing contest over word mincing, but he never asserted that his view was the majority view, only alluded to the possibility. However, someone else did assert that his view was in the minority, which requires proof. "Let people sell their deposits" isn't exactly an idiosyncratic point of view. To be clear, my only concern is when ebank claims to know what people want, when they in fact have no significantly better idea than anyone else. When they talk to a substantial and representative share of their depositors, then they can call someone a minority. For all we know 51% of people's opinions coul be, for all intents and purposes, the sama as cosmos.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:18:00 - [679] Originally by: arjun1 still waiting for the list of loan defaulters to be published. whats holding you back? Still waiting for the loan audit to complete. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:19:00 - [680] Originally by: HawkBlade Let's see how far we can take this bit of silliness. Originally by: SetrakDark To be fair, the burden of proof isn't on cosmo. Someone made a direct quantifiable statement, which he demanded proof for. There's no onus on him to prove the opposite. He was called a "minority". Cosmo is one (1) of thousands thus, ergo, and qed he is a minority. To assert that his opinion is the majority (which I'll explain why I doubt it soon) requires proof. Why I doubt that any of Cosmo's opinions are shared by the majority? Cosmo's opinions are always well thought out seeking balanced solutions. The majority of people, yeah you reading this, are not so intelligent or reasonable. Mind you just because I have high respect for Cosmo's opinions does not mean I think his is ever the only one available in any given situation. PS: Cosmo, simply I think you should honestly get together with the eBank guys and add your unique bit of thunder to their brainstorming. I can tell you, the answers you seek will not be forthcoming from this venue. Trust me. (Spare me the trolling on those last words - I'm not culpable in this disaster.) The thing is, I truly want a resolution to the EBANK because I think the secondary market will sc**** itself off the bottom if we can. Problem is I don't want to join a board of directors for EBANk or any corporation. I work during the day and don't want to be IM'ing all evening. I like to enjoy the MD market and forum in my way. I also very much doubt I can add anything of value at this point as I have on opinion on my solution, for which I don't need to be on the board to voice: 1. Cancel the large number of admin type accounts (under 2m ISK or an acceptable number) that people set up as placeholders. This will greatly reduce the number of accounts. 2. With the accounts that are left send an e-mail posting a link with a number of options (in my case 4): a. liquidation now (with % value) b. hold until January 1st 2010 then liquidate c. hold for a year and payout whatever value assets are d. keep EBANK open with frozen accounts and take whatever time is required to get 100% of capital back Run the vote and then abide by decision.
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:37:00 - [681] Originally by: cosmoray Problem is I don't want to join a board of directors for EBANk or any corporation. Who said join? I know for a fact that the eBank guys will take ideas and comments from any rational person regardless of affiliation. If I remember correctly, there's a few people who are not staff/managers who get to kibitz on various meetings and what not. By invitation mostly but I'm sure if you dropped by their forums you'd get one fairly quick. i.e. I'm not in eBank in any official capacity of any kind yet I still occasionally get my opinion asked. The only reason it doesn't happen more often is due to my own self imposed isolation from eBank. (Or at least I like to think so!) With rational people, there are always solutions to any problem. Only requirement, an open mind. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:45:00 - [682] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: cosmoray Problem is I don't want to join a board of directors for EBANk or any corporation. Who said join? I know for a fact that the eBank guys will take ideas and comments from any rational person regardless of affiliation. If I remember correctly, there's a few people who are not staff/managers who get to kibitz on various meetings and what not. By invitation mostly but I'm sure if you dropped by their forums you'd get one fairly quick. i.e. I'm not in eBank in any official capacity of any kind yet I still occasionally get my opinion asked. The only reason it doesn't happen more often is due to my own self imposed isolation from eBank. (Or at least I like to think so!) With rational people, there are always solutions to any problem. Only requirement, an open mind. My suggestions have gone up on the EBANK forums, so they can spend time looking at them
Heroldyn	Posted - 2009.09.10 13:48:00 - [683] Originally by: Claire Voyant Quote: Please don't evade the profanity filter, Zymurgist I didn't know the profanity filter had a name. best post in a 23-pages thread
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.10 15:42:00 - [684] Originally by: Heroldyn Originally by: Claire Voyant Quote: Please don't evade the profanity filter, Zymurgist I didn't know the profanity filter had a name. best post in a 23-pages thread Well I'm glad there was something here for everyone. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.10 16:09:00 - [685] I think Solisk puts it much more reasonable than I am willing to. I do not think that the account freeze and the setting intrest to 0 for a year is in any form accepteble. Sure freezing it to resolve it is needed, otherwise not all depositors are dealt with equally. But even if you manage to get me my current deposit back in a year then you still scam me for 1.8B (I previously accussed ebank of stealing, which was wrong I should have said they are scamming me and all other account holders. Sorry for that insult.) Of course what ever deficit ebank has now was unintended. Nobody planned to scam with ebank from the onset. But what you plan to do now, by holding whatever remains of my isk hostage for a year while simultaniously changing the terms of the agreement is an outright planned scam. Give us reasonable options now!
Mjolnirsmith	Posted - 2009.09.10 16:25:00 - [686] Instead of going back and forth on whether Cosmoray speaks for the majority or not, and how that can be determined, why not actually poll and ask all people with ebank accounts? Ultimately I think you should also do whatever the majority suggests should be done in the poll, which would be more in keeping with Cosmoray's suggestion. But actually surveying the people who, through their isk, made ebank possible, would resolve all this cat-and-mouse indeterminacy game of "what do people want? what should they want? who speaks for whom? how do we know?" etc personally I think ebank should liquidate everything, give us back what they can, and dissolve as a bank for good. the whole "we decide for you" thing is paternalistic, and would perhaps be justified if we had any faith in what you are doing. We don't. So, don't devise elaborate plans, don't stall, don't linger around and elicit good cop/bad cop routines to divide up sentiment (i.e. "Gee that Ricdic guy was a jerk, but Ray you sure are a stand up and honorable fella - I can tell coz of the unflinching way you write in these forums, as you still hold on to whatever isk we have given you"). EBANK should just die - it should dissolve into eve history with a legacy of shame and incompetence surrounding its demise. Give us what meager isk you can sc**** together from this failed project, we will take that as our lesson to never trust any eve-online "banks" again, and then just GO AWAY.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.10 19:30:00 - [687] The purpose of this post is to present a short and accessible version of my solution to the Eve Bank crisis, which can be found here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1173715. If you have any specific comments, please make them in the original thread. Any general comments of approval or disapproval are welcome here, but I donÆt want to hijack this thread. 1)Since EB is insistent that liquidation is not an option, this solution represents a compromise between maintaining EB as a functioning institution and doing what is in the depositorsÆ best interest. EB intends to use its remaining assets to generate revenues which will be used to pay depositors back. This is good for those who have no other plans for their deposits, but bad for people who could put that money to better use themselves or those that no longer trust EB with their money. 2)My solution is to distribute shares that represent a claim to these remaining assets and their revenue. This way everyoneÆs remaining deposits are turned into items that can be bought, traded, or sold depending on their personal situation. If you want your money right away, you sell all of your shares; if you want to leave your money, you hold all of your shares; or any combination you prefer. EB would make estimates of various ways to price the shares (which others will review), so depositors arenÆt overly vulnerable to bad deals. 3)I have worked this out in much more detail, but this is the general idea. Please read the original and revised solutions before criticizing or complementing specific aspects, and keep them in the original thread ("bankruptcy" in 2nd and 3rd post of page 1 + "revision" in 5th and 6th post page 2). Thanks for your time.
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame EDGE Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.10 23:10:00 - [688] Edited by: FlameWarrior on 10/09/2009 23:11:25 please give my money back ~ i will still throw in money into the eve bank, but now I need the money to pay out my lottery ~~ I STILL OWN MY CUSTOMER TOTAL OF ONE BILLION THAT i throw into the bank to earn interest for !! if u can't give me the money, i can't stop people war dec u guys ~ i m not tryin to scare u or anything, i really need the money , they r getting crazy on me !! awww !!! PLEASE HELP !! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1076548&page=1#14 wht u doing now it's putting me out of business n taking away my trust from EVe bank ! Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.10 23:47:00 - [689] Originally by: FlameWarrior drivel If 1.5% monthly on 1 billion isk is going to destroy that lottery you provided the link the for... then it needs to be destroyed. 15m per month is not a back breaker by no means. Especially when you are tossing around prizes like a dreadnought. Imho, you are just trying to live up to your name. Shame you set the bar so low. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.11 00:45:00 - [690] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: cosmoray Problem is I don't want to join a board of directors for EBANk or any corporation. Who said join? I know for a fact that the eBank guys will take ideas and comments from any rational person regardless of affiliation. If I remember correctly, there's a few people who are not staff/managers who get to kibitz on various meetings and what not. By invitation mostly but I'm sure if you dropped by their forums you'd get one fairly quick. i.e. I'm not in eBank in any official capacity of any kind yet I still occasionally get my opinion asked. The only reason it doesn't happen more often is due to my own self imposed isolation from eBank. (Or at least I like to think so!) With rational people, there are always solutions to any problem. Only requirement, an open mind. I think a closed mind! My suggestions are up, but immediately shot down. A vote wouldn't work because customers don't have the ability to vote for what is best for the whole group. They shouldn't vote for themselves! suggestion on EBANK forum Sorry, no democracy here!
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.11 03:31:00 - [691] Originally by: cosmoray Sorry, no democracy here! Hmmm... I see a lively conversation that just started today. Sorry if people expressing concerns or differing opinions upset you. I had not thought it would but I guess perhaps I over estimated you. Please don't let me interrupt you, continue with the drama bombing. PS: Waving your hands in the air screaming about a lack of democracy only makes me wonder if you understand what a democracy is or if you better understand marketing. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
KaarBaak Minmatar Squirrel Team	Posted - 2009.09.11 03:55:00 - [692] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: cosmoray Sorry, no democracy here! Hmmm... I see a lively conversation that just started today. Sorry if people expressing concerns or differing opinions upset you. I had not thought it would but I guess perhaps I over estimated you. Please don't let me interrupt you, continue with the drama bombing. PS: Waving your hands in the air screaming about a lack of democracy only makes me wonder if you understand what a democracy is or if you better understand marketing. Which makes me wonder if you understand this. KB Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.11 04:11:00 - [693] Originally by: HawkBlade Originally by: cosmoray Sorry, no democracy here! Hmmm... I see a lively conversation that just started today. Sorry if people expressing concerns or differing opinions upset you. I had not thought it would but I guess perhaps I over estimated you. Please don't let me interrupt you, continue with the drama bombing. PS: Waving your hands in the air screaming about a lack of democracy only makes me wonder if you understand what a democracy is or if you better understand marketing. No I don't get upset, I have always loved a good argument. I think I am going to stick to being a drama queen/bomb. When all the sides have finished shouting can you tell me who won! For the record, I have always been a good marketer, but a very poor listener and not very diplomatic. Cost me a few job promotions, according to some of my less than intelligent bosses!!
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.11 11:43:00 - [694] Originally by: KaarBaak Which makes me wonder if you understand this. LOL, at least you understood what I was doing. Now wrap your head around the fact that was exactly what I intended. It's called "holding up a mirror" or "pot calling the kettle"... Cosmo is a big enough boy to know that he was being teased. Or, at the least, he's been around long enough to know that if I want to flame... I flame. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.09.11 14:37:00 - [695] Originally by: HawkBlade Or, at the least, he's been around long enough to know that if I want to flame... I flame. I wouldn't go that far... Black Sun Empire
ProfessorFaust	Posted - 2009.09.11 15:13:00 - [696] Ray McCormack >> I am getting tired of hearing this 1 year crap, and as such have decided to shift to a 3 year schedule. Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.11 17:54:00 - [697] Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Tarinara	Posted - 2009.09.11 20:25:00 - [698] So now it's 3 Years?!?! Oh come on guys - just go ahead and steal the damn money already and be done with it. I've already written off my 700+ mil as gone. HaHa ... the jokes on us... I'm just waiting for my commemorative "All my ISK are belong to E-Bank and all I got was this crummy Newbie Frig" Tee Shirt.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.11 20:57:00 - [699] Originally by: Tarinara So now it's 3 Years?!?! Oh come on guys - just go ahead and steal the damn money already and be done with it. I've already written off my 700+ mil as gone. HaHa ... the jokes on us... I'm just waiting for my commemorative "All my ISK are belong to E-Bank and all I got was this crummy Newbie Frig" Tee Shirt. 3 years? The current members of EBANK are going to work, for free, for 36 months for the sole purpose of giving back to others players the money that has been lost. Forgive me for thinking that most players would do better to just take the 40% and spend 3 years tripling their money. Either they can, or they have so much money already they can just write off the loss. This is just plain silly. - Lexander Morinex
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.11 21:19:00 - [700] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. Surely you jest... Any idea when we will be seeing another official announcement on Ebanks plan of action? Or are plans still in the discussion phase?
Barton Foley	Posted - 2009.09.11 21:35:00 - [701] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. Lol semantics. No lol sadly for the idiots who assume that Ray was serious in that post.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.09.11 21:38:00 - [702] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/09/2009 21:39:44 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. 3 years is very long for a MMO. How do you think to get back to operativity (because it't what you "secretly" would want to do, right?) since: - If ECR and others fail, there won't be given a second chance for EBANK. - If ECR and others succeed, they'll occupy a lot of your "space" for years and they will have a clean reputation. Edit: the post can be a jest, but 3 years to get back to "black" sound really realistic. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:10:00 - [703] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: ProfessorFaust Posted on this thread. Can we get a confirmation on this? Confirming that I posted that. ... and we thought DBANK was bad at handling PR (yes, this is a game - but many people have invested significant amounts of time/isk in EBANK - they would certainly appreciate if you could at least try to RP a banker somewhat convincingly. Have a look at Hexxx's statements - usually rather low on facts, but at least one felt somewhat better and reassured after reading them...) " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:12:00 - [704] Well, let's just get right down to the bleeding obvious. The one year statement is an aim, one that will be re-evaluated during each stage of the recovery. It is by no means a promise or a guarantee, and quite frankly means bugger all to me. Generating a profit of 1.2t in a year is unlikely to happen; it's possible, but without many more man hour contributions it's not a sound reality. However generating profit is not our only means of reducing the deficit. Other avenues we will be trying include some of the following: * Default collection. * Account closures. * Transfer fees. * Other stuff. So let's avoid making statements about how the Bank promised to generate 1.2t profit in a year, stop picking up your pitchforks and torches in anticipation of the lynching - it will not happen. What will happen when we near the one year mark is a re-evaluation of where we stand, we'll be in a better position to analyse the options and choose a path. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:18:00 - [705] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton ... and we thought DBANK was bad at handling PR Cry me a river, I'm not here to mollycoddle you. And do not lecture me on investing significant amounts of time in the Bank. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 07:34:00 - [706] Two issues with your statement The one year mark had a very important function - it allowed customers to calculate a (discounted) value of their ISK and have a preference on liquidation or continued operations. Without some credible timeframe the reselling of account balances won't happen, too (leaving you with those annoying & noisy customers who would have preferred liquidation). I can't quite see why any employee of EBANK should be motivated to take part in this venture. Sounds like a lot of work with unclear rewards: iirc they will get paid iff the bank has reopened (which might never happen) and again the variable timeframe for payment (1 < t < infty) means they cannot calculate a discounted value of their own wages, i.e. they have no way of finding out how much they are really being paid (and if the pay is worth their time). Add to this that when talking about periods in the magnitude of a year+, it becomes feasible to roll out a new MD char and build up the credibility the old EBANK-associated character will probably never gain again even allowing for a successful recovery. A new payment system featuring (a) frequent payouts based on individual performance (measured against the EBANK recovery roadmap) and (b) a competitive (and not token) wage-level might not be super popular amongst customers right now, but would imho be the best way of lending EBANK's plans for recovery any credibility " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.12 08:14:00 - [707] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton I can't quite see why any employee of EBANK should be motivated to take part in this venture. Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? Considered that? --------
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 08:32:00 - [708] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 12/09/2009 08:32:25 Originally by: SentryRaven Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? Considered that? I have no doubt that this type of motivation carries you over a few weeks, but evtl. MD will stop caring about EBANK (have a look at DBANK), the workload will continue to be huge and as getting EBANK running again pretty much is a 0/1 game, you cannot expect to get much appreciation from the public during the process of recovery. So, in 6 months you will realize that EBANK is lacking behind on its recovery plan, it's still unclear when you EBANK be able to open again, MD doesn't care about your heroic rescue-efforts anymore and you yourself can't really say why you are investing so much time into this trainwreck. I would not expect staff to outright leave EBANK, but I would expect them to invest less and less labour into this venture and let EBANK die a silent death. Maybe I am wrong, but I would not place any business decision on the hope of people working for purely personal emotional rewards (if they get public appreciation that's another matter). " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.09.12 09:22:00 - [709] Originally by: SentryRaven Originally by: Mme Pinkerton I can't quite see why any employee of EBANK should be motivated to take part in this venture. Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? Considered that? Oh please, it was you people that brought it the wreck state in the first place by exclusively tending to your private ventures like regional recycling, freighter production and so on. In truth, Ebank has always been an IPO, a means for a select few to draw enormous amounts of capital and fulfill wildest fantasies while screwing with the secondary market in such a way that no single individual could compete with. And now you got the nerve to ask: Quote: Because we don't just wanna walk away and leave the bank in the awful state it is? I demand concrete action be taken against the 1 year hocus pocus crap. Fist An esteemed group of invididuals should be given the full API keys of every toon involved with Ebank. Second The schedule for recovering 1.2T isk should be revised and adjusted to match the server load of each month. Unless Ebank clearly shows that it can meet the monthly profit quota or close to it, liquidation should be enforced. Black Sun Empire
Mjolnirsmith	Posted - 2009.09.12 09:42:00 - [710] Edited by: Mjolnirsmith on 12/09/2009 09:44:27 Edited by: Mjolnirsmith on 12/09/2009 09:43:08 Originally by: Ray McCormack Well, let's just get right down to the bleeding obvious. The one year statement is an aim, one that will be re-evaluated during each stage of the recovery. It is by no means a promise or a guarantee, and quite frankly means bugger all to me. This quote makes it pretty clear that the project of EBANK is taking priority over the people who, through their isk deposits, made the project possible. Whether it is a year, or two, or three means quite a lot to your former EBANK customers. We don't give a crap anymore about you playing your "market roleplaying" ooooh let's see if we can rebound/recover pet project. Our isk is held at ransom while you explore interesting market roleplaying strategies for a year, or a couple, or a few. Even though the mechanics of how EBANK was set up means that you can hold on to our isk, or what is left of it, and there is nothing we can do to get even a portion of it back until EBANK agrees to do so, it does not mean that you are actually justified in doing so. In a nutshell, "things fell apart, and we now insist that you indulge us even further to see if we can make it right, with no guarantee that we will" is not a justified option. I've got some cool market ideas of my own I'd like to try in the next year, or two, or three, of this MMORPG game. To try out these projects I would like whatever isk you can give back from the failed EBANK project so that I and others can be on our way. You know, It's late, and I have a crude analogy in mind. Maybe others will think it is disanalogous in a lot of ways. But here we go: Suppose I enter into a relationship where my significant other soon starts to abuse me. In a lot of ways ( here I think a lot of feminists would take issue, but oh well ) I am responsible for noticing the early symptoms of my spouse's abusive habits, but for psychological reasons ( delusional hope, attachment, etc ), I discounted the signs and the abuse escalated. Of course the significant other is responsible as well, and probably more responsible, because he has the violent habits coming into the relationship. So claims of " you should not have been in a relationship with the person to begin with: you should have heeded the signs" are true. However, it is not mutually exclusive of the view that the spouse is also responsible, and primarily responsible for introducing the abusive behavior into the relationship (this part of the analogy applies to the people who think "you should have known better" somehow ends the issues one might have with EBANK). Well now suppose some extreme violent act occurs and things really fall apart. The bad habits suddenly become clearly unsustainable habits. I wake up from my rationalizations and realize this relationship is something I need to get out of as quickly as possible. I have a right to do this. I can insist on leaving with whatever measly resources of the relationship are left. The abusing spouse is not in any way entitled to set his own timeframes in which to make things right. I am not obligated to remain in the relationship as his hostage/captive audience to see if he turns around or not. In a nutshell: I can and should walk away, and you are not entitled to a chance to make things right again. I'm guessing as this is an MMORPG, and a spaceship pew pew game the analogy to domestic violence will strike a lot of people as being silly, and it will be flamed/ridiculed. However I think there is a fairly lucid point there about responsibility, what to do when things in some kind of relationship go wrong, and whether the wronged party is in any way obligated to stick around to see if you can make amends (we aren't). Your one year, or couple-year, or few-year plans are self-indulgent, and presume a power that you CAN have because you hold our isk hostage, but which you SHOULD NOT have on normative grounds.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 09:53:00 - [711] I'll make this quite clear, a complete liquidation will never happen whilst I am chairman. I am your villain, demonise me. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.09.12 11:07:00 - [712] I agree with what Mme Pinkerton said, which is basically a longer and more diplomatic version of what I said - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 11:39:00 - [713] Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll make this quite clear, a complete liquidation will never happen whilst I am chairman. Why?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:32:00 - [714] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I agree with what Mme Pinkerton said, which is basically a longer and more diplomatic version of what I said Who cares why we want to do this? Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why? For the same reasons Stalin never gave up Russia. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:45:00 - [715] The 1 year mark is important because it represents the limit of a reasonable time frame for even long-term-minded Eve players. To force gamers into a year long plan with no tangible milestones (no benefit to being halfway)is pushing the limits, while suggesting some indeterminate period longer than 1 year is farcical. As more time passes more people will leave the game and more accounts can be closed or ignored. One day in the indeterminate future EBank will declare a miraculous recovery, but no one will care because they will know it was based on a massive waste of depositors' isk. It is far more likely that this period of irrational exuberance at EBank leads to burnout and greater failure anyway.
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:50:00 - [716] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why? For the same reasons Stalin never gave up Russia. Why did Stalin not give up Russia?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:55:00 - [717] Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why did Stalin not give up Russia? Because of сокол. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.12 12:57:00 - [718] Originally by: Skarii TuThess Why did Stalin not give up Russia? Wikipedia leads you to this Originally by: Nikita Khrushchev Stalin personally called the investigative judge, gave him instructions, and advised him on which investigative methods should be used. These methods were simple -- beat, beat and, beat again. Shortly after the doctors were arrested, we members of the Politbiuro received protocols with the doctors' confessions of guilt. After distributing these protocols, Stalin told us, "You are blind like young kittens. What will happen without me? The country will perish because you do not know how to recognize enemies." The case was presented so that no one could verify the facts on which the investigation was based. There was no possibility of trying to verify facts by contacting those who had made the confessions of guilt. We felt, however, that the case of the arrested doctors was questionable. We knew some of these people personally because they had once treated us. When we examined this "case" after Stalin's death, we found it to have been fabricated from beginning to end. ... which does not bode well for EBANK " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:07:00 - [719] Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll make this quite clear, a complete liquidation will never happen whilst I am chairman. I am your villain, demonise me. Done. This makes you a thief or an extortionist in my book. If Ebank won't be liquidated while you are chairman, then resign. It's our money, give those of us who want a portion of it back the option to do so. Or admit that it really is just a scam, and you are just stringing us along, laughing at us for truly believeing it was ever anything else.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:12:00 - [720] Originally by: Johnny Ringo If Ebank won't be liquidated while you are chairman, then resign. No. Originally by: Johnny Ringo It's our money, give those of us who want a portion of it back the option to do so. Okay, we'll let you sell your account to someone offering to buy it. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:47:00 - [721] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Maybe I am wrong, but I would not place any business decision on the hope of people working for purely personal emotional rewards (if they get public appreciation that's another matter). You are totally entitled to your opinion and I am totally entitled to not give a damn about it. I have stated what keeps me there, whatever you do with that, is up to you. --------
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 13:51:00 - [722] So, loyalty?
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 14:21:00 - [723] Originally by: Skarii TuThess So, loyalty? Everyone is here for different reasons. OZ is possibly in the best person to answer this question, he joined when things were at their bleakest and an account freeze seemed inevitable. He's staying on despite not being required to, and despite (and possibly in spite of) all the wretched accusations by people attempting to indict anyone affiliated with the bank. At the end of the day it doesn't matter why we're staying on, those responsible for this mess are either banned or have been asked to leave. Those that were asked to leave were invited to continue assisting the bank's recovery in a private capacity. Those that are staying have zero culpability in my eyes. So whilst you may see me having my occasional forum fun, please be aware the only measuring stick you have for judging us is the ever changing public financials. These will chart our course over the next year and beyond. We're aiming to be in a position to re-open the bank in a year, it may take a little longer than that. But we will not set a concrete date. Nor will be turn a blind eye to the issues raised; we understand that alternatives need to be put in place, that other plans will need to be made should our progress towards our ambitions falter. We by no means feel we have the perfect solution, however we feel we have the correct solution and have the resolve to follow it through to its resolution. We will listen to sound ideas and engage in dialogue with those interested in furthering our ambitions, we won't shut you out. But please appreciate we're players as well, resolved to sorting out a nasty mess. Take that into account when you throw your lofty arguments about. Also, to qualify my liquidation statement. Nothing is never an absolute impossibility. It's just not up for consideration by the board for at least the next half year. Until we have a stable platform to gauge our performance there's no use in quantifying the possibilitites. I'll end this monologue with the following announcement (about announcements). The plan of action (or what I would like to call the New Economic Policy) will be announced no earlier than October 15th and no later than November 1st. 2009. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.12 14:41:00 - [724] Originally by: Ray McCormack But please appreciate we're players as well, resolved to sorting out a nasty mess. Take that into account when you throw your lofty arguments about. A nasty mess that each depositor helped to make. All of you were warned. Man up and stop your whining. (like that'll happen) See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Skarii TuThess Lansez Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.12 14:43:00 - [725] Hi Ray, thanks for responding. I'm not here to judge. Of course I will make a judgement - everyone does and to say that I won't would be naieve - but that's not the motivation behind my question. I just wanted to know why you were absolutely refusing to liquidate when that seems a perfectly reasonable option to those of us on the outside. Originally by: Ray Also, to qualify my liquidation statement. Nothing is never an absolute impossibility. It's just not up for consideration by the board for at least the next half year. Until we have a stable platform to gauge our performance there's no use in quantifying the possibilitites. This makes sense to me as a reason. Thanks for your answer.
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.09.12 16:51:00 - [726] Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll make this quite clear, a complete liquidation will never happen whilst I am chairman. I am your villain, demonise me. You do relize you cant win? With this way of treating your customers, you are tearing down every last sliver of trust they once had in you. Trust is what keeps a bank in business. Regardless of how long you try to recover, this bank is dead the minute it opens up for transactions again. Period.
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.09.12 16:54:00 - [727] Originally by: Reilly Duvolle You do relize you cant win? With this way of treating your customers, you are tearing down every last sliver of trust they once had in you. Trust is what keeps a bank in business. Regardless of how long you try to recover, this bank is dead the minute it opens up for transactions again. Period. Once a business hits "Because I can" mode while playing with other people's money, it's doubtful they care about trust any longer. They're doing it, as stated, because they can. Agree with it, disagree with it - it doesn't really matter. You transfered your isk to their wallets, now they can do with it whatever they want. They're making some type of effort to pretend there's a higher reason for continuing to play with your (60% diminished) isk, but it'll always boil down to "because I can." ----------------
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.09.12 19:37:00 - [728] BRING BACK RICDIK (or whatever his name was) At least he made nice reassuring noises to the investors whilst he was blowing their isk on knee replacements and flying lessons, In the end - thats all people want. They deposited isk into the bank purely so someone could tell them how wise they were and how much isk they were making each month. SKUNK (o)
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.13 06:59:00 - [729] Since I cannot withdraw and no other options are availeble. Are there people out there that have a loan with ebank that they wish to refinance or repay? I have up to 4.4Bil Ebank isk availeble for any such transaction. I also might be able to offer better conditions that ebank is offering. I am currenty only intrested in people that have kept to the agreements they made.
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.13 07:31:00 - [730] Originally by: Leneerra Are there people out there that have a loan with ebank that they wish to refinance or repay? I have up to 4.4Bil Ebank isk availeble for any such transaction. I like your thinking. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
leona starfire LS Trading and Production Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.13 08:39:00 - [731] E-Bank has become a joke, Paying back the money over a year or three years without the interest which was agreed on is not acceptable. Do you think anyone will ever invest in e-bank once they are able to withdraw? If you are still wanting to keep the Bank open you should covert the isk in the accounts to shares and pay back what you can each month through the dividends, at least we would see our isk coming back to us month by month. For people who still have loans outstanding with e-bank I am willing with my main Nightjester to transfer up to 10B isk to your account once i have received 80% of the value of your loan in assets. You can then repay e-bank get back your assets from e-bank and instantly save yourself 20%. I will then allow you to pay back your loan with no interest over the following 12 months. How do you know I can be trusted, well check to see my previous IPO and the current IPO and you will see I have always paid out what I agreed and on time unlike E-bank who has failed all its customers.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.13 11:57:00 - [732] If you keep complaining I'll make it five years. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.13 12:30:00 - [733] Originally by: Ray McCormack If you keep complaining I'll make it five years. ... then go on and make it five years. Leneerra has proposed a very clever business plan, which - if done right - could significantly worsen EBANK's financial situation. Instead of giving some meaningful response ("we know our bank money is worthless, so we won't accept it as payment" would not be really convincing as this would mean that not even EBANK is willing to buy options on its own recovery), you resort to meaningless trolling. but perhaps i am simply too narrow-minded to see how this reaction is in the best interest of EBANK. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
HawkBlade	Posted - 2009.09.13 13:49:00 - [734] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton but perhaps i am simply too narrow-minded to see how this reaction is in the best interest of EBANK. I agree. You are too narrow minded. See my twitterings about Eve Online. Be the first to hear me toot.
Catarrh Ague	Posted - 2009.09.13 14:00:00 - [735] Ray, Your repeated references to the Soviet Union (viz. Stalin, New Economic Policy) can hardly be economically conforting to those folks who still have faith in your goodwill. Can you confirm that these references are merely humorous? Best regards, Catarrh
Master waka	Posted - 2009.09.13 15:41:00 - [736] i think ray just wants all the complaining to stop. :) I do have a question though do you have a time frame on how much longer the audits are going to take so you will have a good idea at all the isk that has been lost, and a more exact idea of what must be done to fix everything? Also is the BOD doing anything to recover the lost isk yet or are they still sitting and waiting on "other ventures" to make it back?
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2009.09.13 15:49:00 - [737] Still talking to Ray??? I told you before..... Posted - 2009.08.31 20:27:00 - [593] - QuoteReport -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What are you all still doing here?? I told you four pages ago that all the isk is gone, the jig is up and you can all go home... The only thing left here are the last minute scams that can be pulled to fleece the remaining isk out of the pockets of sheep who were fully shorn and who insist on standing here naked and shivering, while blinking stupidly into their empty feed bowls. ****************** Now what part of of "fully shorn" sheep** don't you understand???
Fresh Prince For us all	Posted - 2009.09.13 18:28:00 - [738] Originally by: Ray McCormack If you keep complaining I'll make it five years. hahahhahhaaa. /me was waiting just for this. Those who are complaining, should stop and think. You took a risk, now deal with it. I have multiple bil in the bank across a couple of characters. I have to deal with it. No end of whining is going to make this change.
Mjolnirsmith	Posted - 2009.09.13 18:54:00 - [739] Edited by: Mjolnirsmith on 13/09/2009 18:55:21 Edited by: Mjolnirsmith on 13/09/2009 18:54:27 Originally by: Fresh Prince Originally by: Ray McCormack If you keep complaining I'll make it five years. hahahhahhaaa. /me was waiting just for this. Those who are complaining, should stop and think. You took a risk, now deal with it. I have multiple bil in the bank across a couple of characters. I have to deal with it. No end of whining is going to make this change. Comments like Ray's just further confirm that this is one big power trip/probable scam. When people who should be ashamed of themselves continue on with much hubris and arrogance, you know it's a mess. Can Ray/EBANK hold on to any amount of our deposited isk for a year, 5 years, or any indefinite number of years? Yes, as an empirical matter that is factually correct. But they are not justified in doing so. The bank is holding our isk hostage, plain and simple. EBANK and its associated members can puff out their chests all they want, or lash back in a reactionary manner to the justifiably ticked off EBANK depositors, but the bottom line is the EBANK institution is in the wrong and it is not justified in exclusively calling the shots on how it may try to right that wrong, even if as an empirical matter it has the power to do so.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.14 11:53:00 - [740] Originally by: Catarrh Ague Can you confirm that these references are merely humorous? Yeah. Although some would quite rightly question the humour. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.14 12:07:00 - [741] Originally by: leona starfire For people who still have loans outstanding with e-bank I am willing with my main Nightjester to transfer up to 10B isk to your account once i have received 80% of the value of your loan in assets. You can then repay e-bank get back your assets from e-bank and instantly save yourself 20%. I will then allow you to pay back your loan with no interest over the following 12 months. Originally by: Leneerra Are there people out there that have a loan with ebank that they wish to refinance or repay? I have up to 4.4Bil Ebank isk availeble for any such transaction. Anyone caught doing this will have their loan defaulted, and all accounts belonging to the parties involved will be zeroed. The bank is in recovery mode and the board is working hard to restore it to full liquidity, if you want to play silly buggers and try and circumvent the situation by abusing the system then we will treat you with the same level of respect. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.14 13:35:00 - [742] Just curious, after making threats like this what 3rd party will you use to transfer back collateral when people repay their loans? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
KaarBaak Minmatar Squirrel Team	Posted - 2009.09.14 14:20:00 - [743] Originally by: Dzil Just curious, after making threats like this what 3rd party will you use to transfer back collateral when people repay their loans? Do any of them really believe they'll get any collateral back if they repay? KB Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.14 14:36:00 - [744] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Catarrh Ague Can you confirm that these references are merely humorous? Yeah. Although some would quite rightly question the humour. Fortunately I didn't invest in the wonderful opportunity to make 3% a month. But this does show exactly why I am concerned about the situation. This kind of black humor is a sign of growing frustration. And Ray is still months away from fixing the damage. I have already registered my preference for liquidation (which with the inactive accounts could very well be a mild liquidation for most). Mostly though it is sad to see EBANK begin to operate unilaterally. - Lex
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.14 15:37:00 - [745] man y'all got owned Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.14 15:41:00 - [746] My 20% offer is looking better and better as more information comes out.
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.09.14 15:59:00 - [747] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: leona starfire For people who still have loans outstanding with e-bank I am willing with my main Nightjester to transfer up to 10B isk to your account once i have received 80% of the value of your loan in assets. You can then repay e-bank get back your assets from e-bank and instantly save yourself 20%. I will then allow you to pay back your loan with no interest over the following 12 months. Originally by: Leneerra Are there people out there that have a loan with ebank that they wish to refinance or repay? I have up to 4.4Bil Ebank isk availeble for any such transaction. Anyone caught doing this will have their loan defaulted, and all accounts belonging to the parties involved will be zeroed. The bank is in recovery mode and the board is working hard to restore it to full liquidity, if you want to play silly buggers and try and circumvent the situation by abusing the system then we will treat you with the same level of respect. Respect? You have aboulutely NO respect for your customers Ray, and you make no effort at all to hide that fact. You and the entire board have no personal interest in saving EBANK, having of course secured all your personal assets before the freeze, you will continue to tap the bank for isk to pay the boards salaries (even if you publicly deny it), and when there is no more to be had, you will declare the bank bankrupt.
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:21:00 - [748] Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll end this monologue with the following announcement (about announcements). The plan of action (or what I would like to call the New Economic Policy) will be announced no earlier than October 15th and no later than November 1st. 2009. Or it won't, and if you don't like it you can STFU. We hold all the cards.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:22:00 - [749] Originally by: KaarBaak Originally by: Dzil Just curious, after making threats like this what 3rd party will you use to transfer back collateral when people repay their loans? Do any of them really believe they'll get any collateral back if they repay? Freezing accounts would be cause for concern. Denying people the ability to pay off their ebank loans with ebank isk puts them in terrible trouble. But now attacking their customers/would be investors? Time to call the next of kin. This one is DEAD. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:45:00 - [750] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: KaarBaak Originally by: Dzil Just curious, after making threats like this what 3rd party will you use to transfer back collateral when people repay their loans? Do any of them really believe they'll get any collateral back if they repay? Freezing accounts would be cause for concern. Denying people the ability to pay off their ebank loans with ebank isk puts them in terrible trouble. But now attacking their customers/would be investors? Time to call the next of kin. This one is DEAD. um it was dead on arrival Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:53:00 - [751] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: leona starfire For people who still have loans outstanding with e-bank I am willing with my main Nightjester to transfer up to 10B isk to your account once i have received 80% of the value of your loan in assets. You can then repay e-bank get back your assets from e-bank and instantly save yourself 20%. I will then allow you to pay back your loan with no interest over the following 12 months. Originally by: Leneerra Are there people out there that have a loan with ebank that they wish to refinance or repay? I have up to 4.4Bil Ebank isk availeble for any such transaction. Anyone caught doing this will have their loan defaulted, and all accounts belonging to the parties involved will be zeroed. The bank is in recovery mode and the board is working hard to restore it to full liquidity, if you want to play silly buggers and try and circumvent the situation by abusing the system then we will treat you with the same level of respect. Get of your freaking high horse Ray. You say you wish the market to take care of liquidating accounts but your employees scoff at the opportunities that exist and insult those who even try to get an offer together. You provide absolutely no security in when, nor on how much we can get out of our account, thus completely destroying whatever value is left null in them. You joke and make fun of the little securities you did offer in the past. You state quite clearly there will be no liquidation. And when someone actually manages to finds a marketable option to liquidate their isk you threaten them. So I can either wait (indefenetely?) for my isk to be returned, or wait for some kind of ebank approved option to sell MY ebank isk to some ebank approved party? A bank needs trust. Without it, it will not work. You are quite effectively destroying whatever tiny piece of trust remained. Without trust in the opportunity to withdraw isk there is no isk. Without a time limit on your recovery plans my ebank isk are worthless. Calculating 3% a month my balance is worth only 3.1b at this time. Make it 2 years and it is worth only 2.2B at this time. And who even knows if they will be playing eve in 2 years time. And frankly, ebank is not an investment that warrants such a low %. Perhaps 5% is more realistic, making my deposit (assuming a likely withdrawal option in 1 year) worth only 2.4B.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.14 16:54:00 - [752] At this point I've come to the conclusion that you're all just getting trolled. They have you're money, and will keep the site open, so you can see your balances, mostly just to laugh at you.
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.09.14 17:00:00 - [753] Originally by: KaarBaak Originally by: Dzil Just curious, after making threats like this what 3rd party will you use to transfer back collateral when people repay their loans? Do any of them really believe they'll get any collateral back if they repay? At this point, if I had a collateralized loan, I'd seriously start thinking of defaulting. Without third party confirmation, I would assume the collateral has been mostly lost, or will be tied up like deposit accounts. This goes doubly if the loan was collateralized at less than 100%. And I'm still waiting on a public list of defaulters. Maybe I missed it though. It could be entertaining at the very least.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.14 17:05:00 - [754] but, if they post defaulters then theyd have to add theirt own names, as they ceased paying intrest on the isk we loaned them. tricky path for them
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.14 17:17:00 - [755] Sorry to spoil the drama, but Ray is right on this point. If you have an Ebank loan secured by collateral, they would have to be crazy to let you pay off that loan with Ebank deposits bought from another customer at deflated prices. Those deposits are not worth anywhere near face value and will not be for the foreseeable future, if ever. If Ebank does let customers pay off loans with their own pre-frozen deposits, that is purely a courtesy on their part. The real problem is that you invested in an unregulated and uninsured bank and there is no body that has the authority to step in and take control of the assets and liquidate the business. In my opinion, the bank should be liquidated in which case depositors would eventually get 20-30% of their money back. But, the board of directors (as well as most of the customers) seem to be simple, optimistic folk, and they believe that the bank will eventually survive, supported mostly by absentee depositors. The problem is that if the bank does survive, it will still be an unregulated uninsured investment, and will probably not be viable. It will always have a difficult time getting significant new deposits and retaining old accounts. Ray should learn fom this that the best thing for the board and the depositors in the long run will be to liquidate.
TheLordofAllandNothing Caldari United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.09.14 18:33:00 - [756] After telling myself not to deposit into Ebank a while back im certainly feeling very pleased with myself that i didnt. Y'all got owned. _______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =(
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.14 19:35:00 - [757] Ray, You have stated you wanted to have the market take care of liquidating the ebank customers that wish it What steps are you planning to take to make that statement a reality? What timeframe are we looking at for such steps to be taken? What guarantees will ebank claim to provide to set a fair market value for current depossits? (things like timeframe until isk release, guaranteed conversion percetage for conversion of ebank isk into ccp isk. Which need to be set to allow any trade value over cosmoray's current 20% offering) Will eBank affiliates be forbidden from entering the trade in eBank isk?
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.09.14 20:15:00 - [758] Originally by: Claire Voyant The problem is that if the bank does survive, it will still be an unregulated uninsured investment, and will probably not be viable. It will always have a difficult time getting significant new deposits and retaining old accounts. Ray should learn fom this that the best thing for the board and the depositors in the long run will be to liquidate. QFT
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.14 20:34:00 - [759] Originally by: Claire Voyant The problem is that if the bank does survive, it will still be an unregulated uninsured investment, and will probably not be viable. It will always have a difficult time getting significant new deposits and retaining old accounts. Ray should learn fom this that the best thing for the board and the depositors in the long run will be to liquidate. Of course. But the long run is quite different from the short run. In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. Don't confuse long run with a period of time though. In the short run, the current plan does what it needs to do. That's the whole idea of a short run, where all variables are fixed. When you start discussing long run, you inherently start discussing changes in variable. At that time, the variables are quite likely in favor of liquidating EBANK. But those are two completely different things and neither should have effect on the other.
Landea Kimimi	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:10:00 - [760] Originally by: Ray McCormack Anyone caught doing this will have their loan defaulted, and all accounts belonging to the parties involved will be zeroed. The bank is in recovery mode and the board is working hard to restore it to full liquidity, if you want to play silly buggers and try and circumvent the situation by abusing the system then we will treat you with the same level of respect. What Ray has indicated here is that he/EBank is looking for any reason not to repay people what they are owed. Such willingness to subjectively screw people indicates that few depositors, if any, will likely ever be repayed. So...all those who owe loans to EBank now have a reason not to repay EBank. After all, like EBank you need only a subjective reason to hold EBank in default. Forget your obligations everyone...EBank certainly has. Depositors, you're just being further duped: you have already lost your money....
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:34:00 - [761] Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 14/09/2009 21:34:02 Originally by: LaVista Vista In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. What gets me about this is it deliberately ignores the time value of money. When EBANK gets back to the value it was before it will have done nothing more than earn interest on the current money at a rate no better than the investors could do themselves. If anything, EBANK can be expected to perform worse than the individual investor who is working on a smaller scale and can get 2.5x there starting value faster than EBANK can possibly do. Because of that, if in one year even if EBANK has earned back all the lost ISK to this point the bank will have effectively forced most investors to take an effective loss on what they could have made if the had been given their 40%. The 1.2t EBANK has lost to this point is merely a sunk cost. The idea that EBANK is restoring the lost equity is a fallacy. Investors do not benefit from EBANK taking away their opportunities in the vain hope that the bank can save face. - Lexander Morinex
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:43:00 - [762] Originally by: Landea Kimimi So...all those who owe loans to EBank now have a reason not to repay EBank. After all, like EBank you need only a subjective reason to hold EBank in default. Forget your obligations everyone...EBank certainly has. Depositors, you're just being further duped: you have already lost your money.... I would certainly argue that those who own loans to EBANK are well within their rights at this point to insist they won't repay the loans for one to two years, and without interest. - Lexander Morinex
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:51:00 - [763] Lexander, I had prepared several quotes of things you've said in the past year but honestly it just isn't worth it. Please feel free to continue to give your opinion. <Amarr's signature>
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:56:00 - [764] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Lexander, I had prepared several quotes of things you've said in the past year but honestly it just isn't worth it. Please feel free to continue to give your opinion. My opinion is merely that EBANK investors would get a better deal after liquidation than EBANK is going to give them by keeping their money. In my view EBANK doesn't really even have the right to make that decision (whatever rights mean in this game). If EBANK has the right to say 'We will give you your money back when we decide' then any and all investors can do whatever they want with the money people loan them. I am noticing that something about the way I post really annoys people. Since that isn't really my intent when I write I am doing something wrong. - Lexander Morinex
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.14 21:58:00 - [765] Originally by: LaVista Vista Of course. But the long run is quite different from the short run. In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. Don't confuse long run with a period of time though. In the short run, the current plan does what it needs to do. That's the whole idea of a short run, where all variables are fixed. When you start discussing long run, you inherently start discussing changes in variable. At that time, the variables are quite likely in favor of liquidating EBANK. But those are two completely different things and neither should have effect on the other. Just in case anyone was going to be duped by this attempt at economic analysis: it makes no sense. Not as in "it's a bad argument", rather as in "it is nonsense". Just a heads up for all you TL;DRers out there who might think it is valid at a glance. If people really care, I'll elaborate. However, it'll probably be longer than the original post, and I'm just not in the mood
leona starfire LS Trading and Production Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.14 22:32:00 - [766] Edited by: leona starfire on 14/09/2009 22:32:28 Ray you have told us we cannot use isk within the bank to pay of other peoples loans. Am I ok to tranfer my isk to another account and sell the risk to someone else who is willing to wait for 1-5 years? Also would e-bank come to some agreement with IPO runners to get there isk out and allow trusted IPO's to pay interest for the access to the isk. I would be happy to pay say 1.5-3% interest for access to my isk.
Landea Kimimi	Posted - 2009.09.14 23:38:00 - [767] Originally by: leona starfire Edited by: leona starfire on 14/09/2009 22:32:28 Ray you have told us we cannot use isk within the bank to pay of other peoples loans. Am I ok to tranfer my isk to another account and sell the risk to someone else who is willing to wait for 1-5 years? Also would e-bank come to some agreement with IPO runners to get there isk out and allow trusted IPO's to pay interest for the access to the isk. I would be happy to pay say 1.5-3% interest for access to my isk. What you're asking them to do is quite reasonable - sort of like the CDOs of the real world. However, you're not taking into account the fact that EBank has no real intention of paying you back, thus the "collateralized" part doesn't really apply, and 1.5 - 3% isn't as good to them as the effective 100% interest you've already payed them.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:00:00 - [768] Every time I stumble upon this forum I get to read an A+ thread drowning in emo tears. It's exhilarating. So EBANK is a huge scam. Now thats lulzworthy all by itself but not only that: The people responsible (who would've to admit to being incompetent and naive if they're claiming not to be scammers) get to openly ridicule and debase the very people they're robbing. At the same time they do manage to string along a lot of these poor souls by pretending that the bank (speaking of which the BOD can't even know/prove it ever was one in the first place) - that turned out to be some kind of IPO you really didn't sign up for (and that has no interest) - really will be a bank 1 year from now. Well, maybe. Or 5 years. Patience is a virtue and after all you ***ty little whiners really deserve it for claiming the money you (supposedly) own. Also funny how no one but hexxx admits to any responsibility at all. (Unless he is part of all this...) I mean apparently LaVistaVista was one of the founders of the bank and I remember how he was downplaying ricdics theft and claiming that it wouldn't hurt EBANK too much(also I think he talked a lot about how secure everything was - quite a joke seeing you guys have admitted to total negligence in "housekeeping"). He also claims that he basically had no understanding/knowledge of the inner proceedings of the bank (or rather lack of) even after being warned by a former board member. I won't be the only person that thinks either he has misrepresented his involvement with the bank in many of his posts prior to this incident or he is trying to extricate himself from this hilarious mess. Because apparently he was only the janitor maintaining the website/sanitary facilities/pool among other stuff. Allright. At least thats my understanding of this rather awesome thread but surely someone will tell me how wrong I am in due time. Basically to all EBANK customers a few words of wisdom and commiseration cough: enjoy your BUKKAKE! -- Originally by:* Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
isevele	Posted - 2009.09.15 01:49:00 - [769] please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing?
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:07:00 - [770] Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? Crash and exotic dancers.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:23:00 - [771] Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? You are reading the balance sheet correctly. EBANK are in the midst of an audit, so the complete picture of EBANK's financial situation is not clear. This is changing all the time. The current asset position is worse than initial reports and is 736B (down from 800+B), and the losses is upto 1.27T
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:49:00 - [772] Correct me if I'm wrong for calling some of you idiots but isn't the API still down? Wouldn't that mean that the spreadsheet isn't showing all the figures it usually does? I'm no expert like some of you claim to be so I could be wrong. <Amarr's signature>
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:55:00 - [773] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Correct me if I'm wrong for calling some of you idiots but isn't the API still down? Wouldn't that mean that the spreadsheet isn't showing all the figures it usually does? I'm no expert like some of you claim to be so I could be wrong. Was down earlier, but it is currently showing fully updated as of September 15th.
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:57:00 - [774] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Correct me if I'm wrong for calling some of you idiots but isn't the API still down? Wouldn't that mean that the spreadsheet isn't showing all the figures it usually does? I'm no expert like some of you claim to be so I could be wrong. Was down earlier, but it is currently showing fully updated as of September 15th. Well then it must not being showing the 1.2t in my wallet right now. <Amarr's signature>
Tarinara	Posted - 2009.09.15 02:57:00 - [775] Originally by: Myra2007 Basically to all EBANK customers a few words of wisdom and commiseration cough: enjoy your BUKKAKE! Hope you're happy... holds thumb and index finger real close together ... I came that close to spewing pop all over my laptop laughing at that one.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.15 03:08:00 - [776] Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.15 03:23:00 - [777] Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs. How can they have pending withdrawals of 226B. When I look at the site, I don't see a withdrawal "button", yes I know withdrawals are suspended, I just wondered how you could even action it.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:07:00 - [778] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs. How can they have pending withdrawals of 226B. When I look at the site, I don't see a withdrawal "button", yes I know withdrawals are suspended, I just wondered how you could even action it. Salaries, of course. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:15:00 - [779] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: LaVista Vista Of course. But the long run is quite different from the short run. In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. Don't confuse long run with a period of time though. In the short run, the current plan does what it needs to do. That's the whole idea of a short run, where all variables are fixed. When you start discussing long run, you inherently start discussing changes in variable. At that time, the variables are quite likely in favor of liquidating EBANK. But those are two completely different things and neither should have effect on the other. Just in case anyone was going to be duped by this attempt at economic analysis: it makes no sense. Not as in "it's a bad argument", rather as in "it is nonsense". Just a heads up for all you TL;DRers out there who might think it is valid at a glance. If people really care, I'll elaborate. However, it'll probably be longer than the original post, and I'm just not in the mood Wow! Your argument is great. My argument is fully valid. Short run(When variables stay the same) and long run(Change in variables, for instance a run on the bank as a result of us opening up again) are quite different scenarios. And they need to be dealt with in different wants.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:21:00 - [780] So, what are the variables?
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:30:00 - [781] Originally by: Lexander Morinex Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 14/09/2009 21:42:20 Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 14/09/2009 21:34:02 Originally by: LaVista Vista In the short run, everybody ought to get the ISK that is owed to time. When EBANK has fully recovered, it can easily be forced to liquidate if everybody takes their ISK out. And I find that to be a likely scenario. What gets me about this is it deliberately ignores the time value of money. When EBANK gets back to the value it was before it will have done nothing more than earn interest on the current money at a rate no better than the investors could do themselves. If anything, EBANK can be expected to perform worse than the individual investor who is working on a smaller scale and can get 2.5x their starting value faster than EBANK can possibly do. Because of that, if in one year even if EBANK has earned back all the lost ISK to this point the bank will have effectively forced most investors to take an effective loss on what they could have made if the had been given their 40%. The 1.2t EBANK has lost to this point is merely a sunk cost. The idea that EBANK is restoring the lost equity is a fallacy. Investors do not benefit from EBANK taking away their opportunities in the vain hope that the bank can save face. - Lexander Morinex That's totally fair points. For what it's worth, the ISK might actually be worth a few extra % due to the inherent deflation of EVE. But your points are fair.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:41:00 - [782] Originally by: Myra2007 I mean apparently LaVistaVista was one of the founders of the bank and I remember how he was downplaying ricdics theft and claiming that it wouldn't hurt EBANK too much(also I think he talked a lot about how secure everything was - quite a joke seeing you guys have admitted to total negligence in "housekeeping"). What we knew at the time of the Ricdic theft, was that he had stolen around 250 billions and another few loans were defaulted but needed accounting for. Hence, given the knowledge we had, EBANK was still sound. But we did decide to bring in a new chairman(Ray) who would account for the whole of EBANK and give it a fresh "restart" in a way. Quote: He also claims that he basically had no understanding/knowledge of the inner proceedings of the bank (or rather lack of) even after being warned by a former board member. I won't be the only person that thinks either he has misrepresented his involvement with the bank in many of his posts prior to this incident or he is trying to extricate himself from this hilarious mess. There's a difference between being able to speak in general terms about how the banks works internally, and then being able to speak with certainty and in specifics about how the bank works. Don't get confused.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:48:00 - [783] Originally by: Brock Nelson So, what are the variables? In the short run our costs will stay fixed, however inefficient the bank is as a result of the deficit. Once the bank opens up for withdrawals, our costs will decrease.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.15 04:54:00 - [784] Originally by: LaVista Vista For what it's worth, the ISK might actually be worth a few extra % due to the inherent deflation of EVE. But your points are fair. True. But that would also apply to any ISK in the hands of the investors too. From my perspective I have no reason to believe that Ray or the current BoD intends to scam anyone. That is certainly not my issue. My issue is that EBANK has basically violated the contract it made with each investor. Practically speaking EBANK is insolvent. You can't repay each investor the full value and therefore you can't process withdrawals. But the way the bank has handled it denies the investors the ability to decide the fate of their own ISK. Can EBANK really manage 800b ISK better than each individual investor? Many months ago the directors of EBANK pointed out how DBANK was going to have trouble paying 10% a month because it got harder to generate ISK as you had more of it. (I point out DBANK sometimes specifically because I was involved in that debacle and am not exactly proud of it). The same rule applies to EBANK now. EBANK is basically claiming that despite losing 60% of the deposits new management can now take all that ISK and double it in a year or two. If it was easy to do before then the bank wouldn't have the problems it has now. That kind of ISK is hard to utilize for industrial pursuits and you there aren't enough trustworthy people to loan it to that would generate any reasonable %. Given that many investors can double their money in a matter of months it seems a poor trade. - Lex
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.15 06:14:00 - [785] Originally by: Leneerra What steps are you planning to take to make that statement a reality? What timeframe are we looking at for such steps to be taken? We'll make the process known in the Oct 15 - Nov 1 announcement. Originally by: Leneerra What guarantees will ebank claim to provide to set a fair market value for current depossits? We can't control what the market offers. Originally by: Leneerra Will eBank affiliates be forbidden from entering the trade in eBank isk? Sure. But I can't guarantee they won't use alts. Originally by: Landea Kimimi What Ray has indicated here is that he/EBank is looking for any reason not to repay people what they are owed. Such willingness to subjectively screw people indicates that few depositors, if any, will likely ever be repayed. Where the heck did you get that from? Take a step back and rethink this. What I'm actually doing is trying to protect depositor's ISK from people looking to screw them over by abusing a loophole in the system. Originally by: leona starfire Ray you have told us we cannot use isk within the bank to pay of other peoples loans. Am I ok to tranfer my isk to another account and sell the risk to someone else who is willing to wait for 1-5 years? Yes, details of how to do this will be made in the next announcement. Originally by: leona starfire Also would e-bank come to some agreement with IPO runners to get there isk out and allow trusted IPO's to pay interest for the access to the isk. I would be happy to pay say 1.5-3% interest for access to my isk. That depends on the agreement, I'm not exactly sure what you're offering here. Originally by: cosmoray How can they have pending withdrawals of 226B. When I look at the site, I don't see a withdrawal "button", yes I know withdrawals are suspended, I just wondered how you could even action it. You need to look harder, it's still there to allow late depositors to withdraw their ISK. We haven't coded a cancel feature yet so that 222b+ is sitting in limbo and needs to be counted. Originally by: Lexander Morinex But the way the bank has handled it denies the investors the ability to decide the fate of their own ISK. As stated many times before we are aware of this and are working on plans that will allow investors to recover some of their ISK rather than wait a year. Details will be forthcoming in the next announcement. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Nuzzy Futs Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2009.09.15 06:38:00 - [786] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Lexander, I had prepared several quotes of things you've said in the past year but honestly it just isn't worth it. Please feel free to continue to give your opinion. But what is the difference in Ebank breaking it's pledge to pay intrest and a loan refusing to make any payments till ebank is solvent again? Why would they be held to a higher standard since you are both breaking the contracts you agreed to? Awww Nuts.
Shuut U	Posted - 2009.09.15 07:17:00 - [787] Edited by: Shuut U on 15/09/2009 07:19:02 Originally by: Ray McCormack Losses Losses to date have occurred as follows: 1.~250b û Ricdic Theft. 2.~380b û Loan Defaults 3.>48b û Share Losses 4.~466b û Interest Paid 5.~75b û Salaries There are possibly further losses not accounted for, such as operational losses, additional theft and reporting errors. As these are established we will report on them. OMFG #5 is F'ing hilarious. At least you operate like real life banks. How much of this is bonuses for ruining people's wallet? LOLZ
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.15 07:33:00 - [788] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 15/09/2009 07:33:22 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: LaVista Vista stuff Just in case anyone was going to be duped by this attempt at economic analysis: it makes no sense. Not as in "it's a bad argument", rather as in "it is nonsense". Just a heads up for all you TL;DRers out there who might think it is valid at a glance. If people really care, I'll elaborate. However, it'll probably be longer than the original post, and I'm just not in the mood Wow! Your argument is great. My argument is fully valid. Short run(When variables stay the same) and long run(Change in variables, for instance a run on the bank as a result of us opening up again) are quite different scenarios. And they need to be dealt with in different wants. the standard short-run condition for staying in business is (average variable cost <= average revenue), which is clearly violated in the case of EBANK. Now, ebank has entered a state of insolvency and decided to reduce marginal cost to opportunity cost (+frozen wages), this probably means AVC < AR. However, by doing this EBANK has already left the short run Originally by: McKenna/Rees, Economics - A Mathematical Introduction in which one input (typically capital) and the cost associated with it are fixed, and only one input (typically labour) is variable. (btw this is one of my favourite intermediate-level econ textbooks) And before anyone starts telling me that the input of/cost associated with labour is fixed: EBANK has laid off staff and frozen wages, so this is clearly not the case. Besides, the whole question of liquidation cannot be treated from a short-run perspective, as the ability to liquidate already implies you're in the long-run. => conclusion: due to the high liquidity of input factors (even those associated with semi-fixed costs), in EVE you are almost always operating from a long-run perspective. Short-run considerations only matter for the span of time it would need to liquidate EBANK (i.e. sell off the titan BPOs). IMO LVV is simply wrong - the long run is waaay shorter than he seems to believe. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.15 09:28:00 - [789] Quote: I don't know much about finance - but from my point of view, the interest payments definitely belong into the fixed costs category. They are the cost of the input factor "capital" which cannot be increased/diminished by EBANK in the short term (only be influenced by policies rgd. deposits/withdrawals). You are right. In the short term, costs are fixed. That's the whole idea of short-term: Variables(For instance costs) stay the same. Now until EBANK starts acting on withdrawals again, we will stay in the short-term. Quote: However, EBANK did not shut down because of a short-term issue, but because average cost > average revenue - the interest payments (being part of EBANK's fixed cost) could not be sustained any longer. The economics definition of short-term inherently means that it couldn't be an issue there, because short run assumes everything is fixed. Quote: Now, ebank has entered a state of insolvency and did decide not to pay interest on capital anymore. By doing this EBANK has most certainly left the short term No. You are using the terminology to describe a period of time. Short vs long term is a matter of how variables change. Hence until there's a change in the variables, we are in the short-term. Quote: And before anyone starts telling me that the input of/cost associated with labour is fixed: EBANK has laid off staff and frozen wages, so this is clearly not the case. Again, labour is inherently a fixed cost in the short run due to the economic definition of short run. In the long run it's not due to inflation. Quote: Besides, the whole question of liquidation cannot be treated from a short-run perspective, as the ability to liquidate already implies you're in the long-run. That's my EXACT point though. Thank you for putting it more clearly than I could. I think the disagreement otherwise lies in the terminology used. However the above quote is extremely important to emphasise.
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.15 11:03:00 - [790] Originally by: LaVista Vista You are right. In the short term, costs are fixed. That's the whole idea of short-term: Variables(For instance costs) stay the same. that's a very, very narrow definition of the short-term perspective. The more common one is that some variables are fixed in the short run, whereas almost all variables can be changed in the long run. Originally by: LaVista Vista Quote: Now, ebank has entered a state of insolvency and did decide not to pay interest on capital anymore. By doing this EBANK has most certainly left the short term No. You are using the terminology to describe a period of time. Short vs long term is a matter of how variables change. Hence until there's a change in the variables, we are in the short-term. No, I did not refer to a span of time. I referred to the fact that EBANK was able to change the conditions on which it acquires capital - and that's only possible in the long-term perspective. Another point in support of my view would be that EBANK will certainly reallocate ressources in the recovery process (way before reopening withdrawals) which again is only possible in the long run. Originally by: LaVista Vista Quote: And before anyone starts telling me that the input of/cost associated with labour is fixed: EBANK has laid off staff and frozen wages, so this is clearly not the case. Again, labour is inherently a fixed cost in the short run due to the economic definition of short run. In the long run it's not due to inflation. Inflation only changes real wages if wage contracts are sufficiently sticky and the inflation forecasts are off. I was referring to the possibility of hiring/dismissing labour - which is usually "allowed" even in a short-term analysis (due to it being possible on very short notice using temporary employment). Originally by: LaVista Vista Oh, and it's not relevant at all to this argument. Wages would be a conflict of interest with the recovery of the bank. it is relevant, as according to your narrow view of "short-term", it should not have been possible to change the wage-sum in the first place. Originally by: LaVista Vista Quote: Besides, the whole question of liquidation cannot be treated from a short-run perspective, as the ability to liquidate already implies you're in the long-run. That's my EXACT point though. Thank you for putting it more clearly than I could. I think the disagreement otherwise lies in the terminology used. However the above quote is extremely important to emphasise. Thank you for mis-interpreting my statement. My point is, that a short-term perspective makes no sense in EVE, as you are almost always operating under long-term conditions. So - imo - your whole talk of everything being fixed in the short-term does not lead to any relevant insights, as this condition is not met. Even during the recovery process, EBANK has to (and does) operate using a long-term perspective. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.15 13:21:00 - [791] Pinkerton is mostly correct, and this is why I didn't want to elaborate because now you're in an internet peeing match with someone who has no idea what they're talking about. Short and sweet so people can just move on and ignore lavista: -In the long run, NO variables are fixed; in the short run SOME are. -Labor is almost always an unfixed variable, and it definitely is in this case -Decisions in the long and short runs do apply to one another, the only difference being that fixed costs shouldn't affect short run decisions -The possibility of a future bank run means that since the only reason EB is holding deposits is to try and stay open, then it might as well close now because it will close when it unfreezes deposits anyway. That has nothing to do with the short/long run division -The variable cost for EB is interest and salaries. The fixed cost is the fixed assets. The fixed assets become a variable cost as soon as they can be sold, and the short run ends (1-2 month range imo) -A proper short/long run analysis is that EB should continue to manage the fixed assets until they can be sold -Pikerton was on the right track with cost of capital, but it seems unnecessary to get into it, as there is plenty here to demonstrate that lavista's post(s) should be ignored
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.15 13:35:00 - [792] Quote: The possibility of a future bank run means that since the only reason EB is holding deposits is to try and stay open, then it might as well close now because it will close when it unfreezes deposits anyway. This statement is interesting, and brings an opportunity to steer this 27 page thread back onto some kind of constructive turf (Hey, I like driving on and off the sidewalk). Ray, you stated ebank will never liquidate. What are your motivations for keeping the bank open? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.15 13:43:00 - [793] Originally by: Dzil This statement is interesting, and brings an opportunity to steer this 27 page thread back onto some kind of constructive turf (Hey, I like driving on and off the sidewalk). Ray, you stated ebank will never liquidate. What are your motivations for keeping the bank open? to be clear, that's my presentation of the statement that prompted lavista's response. I do believe something along those lines, but i dont care to gt into it
Jazz Scotch	Posted - 2009.09.15 20:10:00 - [794] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs. How can they have pending withdrawals of 226B. When I look at the site, I don't see a withdrawal "button", yes I know withdrawals are suspended, I just wondered how you could even action it. People like me how didn't know of the account freezeand tryed to withdraw from our accounts and are now in a pending state. Can these pending withdraws be retruned to the accounts?
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.09.15 21:54:00 - [795] Originally by: LaVista Vista What we knew at the time of the Ricdic theft, was that he had stolen around 250 billions and another few loans were defaulted but needed accounting for. Hence, given the knowledge we had, EBANK was still sound. But we did decide to bring in a new chairman(Ray) who would account for the whole of EBANK and give it a fresh "restart" in a way. Ok, but this is exactly the point. You didn't know better. And you (that would include the BOD) didn't know because of the mismanagement going on detailed by Ray in the op. Didn't it occur to you at one point that - well - the bank was not run professionally? Did you not notice that you really didn't know when you made those statements? Because I see two options: a) you didn't see it at all How could this be given that you helped founding the bank, were working for it for years and were part of the BOD for a rather short but also critical time (after the theft if I recall)? That would make you look incompetent and not really speak for your knowledge of "how the banks work" at all. And if that was true how could you be so bold to make implications about the stability of the bank or appease people about their security concerns in that ricdic thread? b) you did notice it but didn't act on it That one would speak for itself I guess. Originally by: LaVista Vista There's a difference between being able to speak in general terms about how the banks works internally, and then being able to speak with certainty and in specifics about how the bank works. Don't get confused. So when you told people that the bank wasn't severely damaged it was speaking in general terms? When you were talking about how the different security measures would stop people from just running away with tons of money you were speaking in general terms? (I mean today we all know you were wrong on both accounts!) To make it clear: you really had absolutely no idea if either of those things was true at the time? In that case I am indeed a bit confused as to why you did not make clear that you had absolutely zero knowledge about how the bank "really works" as opposed to how it works "in general terms" or how certain you really were about it. I guess your subtext was a bit subtle there and if I cared enough I'd eve-search a few nice examples. It doesn't matter though as it would be quite obvious at this point that you're only deflecting the real questions. Of course the other faceless BODs may even be worse but whatever. (and yes the fact that you are not part of the BOD anymore is noted) I still really hope its a scam. Because if its not that means all you guys are just extremely incompetent. And how boring is that? On the other hand you guys are keeping money you're not supposed to keep. So that makes you fraud anyway. But in that case you would be "honest" but tragically inept individuals that put themselves in a situation where kidnapping the isk of your loyal customers (=fraud=scamming even if you repay it later) seemed like your only recourse. Good **ing job. -- Originally by:** Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Din Chao	Posted - 2009.09.16 01:06:00 - [796] Edited by: Din Chao on 16/09/2009 01:05:59 Originally by: Jazz Scotch Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 15/09/2009 03:09:23 This Originally by: isevele please someone correct me, because i pray im wrong......will someone review the financial statement and tell me if the debt has gone up another .1 trillion or no....i thought it was 1.2 trillion and now its 1.27 trillion......what the hell are you people doing? I believe is referring to this Pending Withdrawals226,919,577,200 which is a new addition to the sheet. Edit: and has nothing to do with APIs. How can they have pending withdrawals of 226B. When I look at the site, I don't see a withdrawal "button", yes I know withdrawals are suspended, I just wondered how you could even action it. People like me how didn't know of the account freezeand tryed to withdraw from our accounts and are now in a pending state. Can these pending withdraws be retruned to the accounts? Or people like me. I deposited 400 mil before learning of the freeze (but after it was announced, so supposedly I'm allowed to withdraw it), and now wait for the day (if ever) when I can get it back.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.16 01:26:00 - [797] Originally by: Din Chao Or people like me. I deposited 400 mil before learning of the freeze (but after it was announced, so supposedly I'm allowed to withdraw it), and now wait for the day (if ever) when I can get it back. Put a ticket in on the EBANK website, to get the withdrawal actioned. EBANK did state that any funds deposited after the account freeze could be withdrawn. A ticket should get to a teller, and your money should be returned or at least get an explanation.
Din Chao	Posted - 2009.09.16 03:54:00 - [798] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Din Chao Or people like me. I deposited 400 mil before learning of the freeze (but after it was announced, so supposedly I'm allowed to withdraw it), and now wait for the day (if ever) when I can get it back. Put a ticket in on the EBANK website, to get the withdrawal actioned. EBANK did state that any funds deposited after the account freeze could be withdrawn. A ticket should get to a teller, and your money should be returned or at least get an explanation. Thanks, did that last night, still waiting for a response...
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.16 08:08:00 - [799] Tickets have a bit of a backlog atm, we are answering and completing them as humanly possible. --------
Rachel Silverside Caldari Conflagration. Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.09.16 09:25:00 - [800] do you know roughly when withdrawls will start up again cause i have 76m sitting there and i really want a scorp with ****ed amounts of ewar (to farm rats, today i found three faction spawns in the same system 2 were ** but still) -------------------- This sig was awesome but needs more EvE related content. - Zymurgist Playing eve online is like getting punched in the balls/gut/face....... what? what are you waiting for?
Arzuanne Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.09.16 11:31:00 - [801] Quite strange. Frozen account announcement stated that it applies to all accounst bade before this announcement and no account goes frozen after. I've created account after this announcement and now my 4 bil are "pending withdrawal" for almost two weeks. p.s.: Only one reply from ebank support that they will check the issue and solve the problem. And then nothing more.
Admiral Kali Caldari Galactic Security and Administration	Posted - 2009.09.16 11:32:00 - [802] Wow. Just, wow. I'm rather new to EVE and had heard about it being player driven, but I had no idea. The concept of Ebank and that someone could embessle so much money is actually appealing to me. I am actually considering sinking a billion or two into this project just for the rush. Sorry a lot of you lost a lot of money, but luckily it's just a game and you weren't RL Madoff clients.
Yarik Mendel Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.16 12:25:00 - [803] Everyone gets what they deserve, many were those who screamed scam when the bank started, but you didn't listen.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.16 13:14:00 - [804] I'm wondering how many that has posted in here is going to fanfest. If you are, find me and we could have a reasonable discussion, quite unlike what has been had here.
Admiral Kali Caldari Galactic Security and Administration	Posted - 2009.09.16 14:08:00 - [805] I am not one of your aggrieved clients, but if I make it to reykjavik in time I definitely want a chat with you.
LarcatOfRens	Posted - 2009.09.16 14:33:00 - [806] Originally by: LaVista Vista I'm wondering how many that has posted in here is going to fanfest. If you are, find me and we could have a reasonable discussion, quite unlike what has been had here. Something you and Athre and etc etc etc seem to be forgetting is that MD is simply treating you the same way you have treated suspected scammers, or even newbies without good pedigrees for quite some time. Imagine if instead of it being your pet bank it was a large scale Bond you had bought into. Those elites still connected to EBank would NOT be any more charitable than the pbase as a whole is being. McCormak is excepted from this as he is not the janitor cleaning up after all yalls mess.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.16 14:37:00 - [807] Originally by: LarcatOfRens Originally by: LaVista Vista I'm wondering how many that has posted in here is going to fanfest. If you are, find me and we could have a reasonable discussion, quite unlike what has been had here. Something you and Athre and etc etc etc seem to be forgetting is that MD is simply treating you the same way you have treated suspected scammers, or even newbies without good pedigrees for quite some time. Imagine if instead of it being your pet bank it was a large scale Bond you had bought into. Those elites still connected to EBank would NOT be any more charitable than the pbase as a whole is being. McCormak is excepted from this as he is not the janitor cleaning up after all yalls mess. What is your point? I'm merely reachign out to people, pointing out that if people are going to fanfest, I'd be more than willing to discuss the situation and things like that. Originally by: Admiral Kali I am not one of your aggrieved clients, but if I make it to reykjavik in time I definitely want a chat with you. Sure thing!
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.09.16 15:07:00 - [808] Originally by: Din Chao Or people like me. I deposited 400 mil before learning of the freeze (but after it was announced, so supposedly I'm allowed to withdraw it), and now wait for the day (if ever) when I can get it back. Din you were process about an hour ago. I've been checking withdrawals weekly (for post deposits and withdrawals off those sums)and didnt get to it sunday. I did them this morning before I go off to work.
Athre Minmatar The Higher Standard	Posted - 2009.09.16 15:15:00 - [809] Originally by: Jazz Scotch Can these pending withdraws be retruned to the accounts? Jazz, On the list of things to do includes having our development team code a "cancel withdrawal" button. No ETA available. - post script rant - what is with this 5 minute thing... meh
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.16 16:24:00 - [810] Edited by: Leneerra on 16/09/2009 16:33:28 Would love to talk there. Furthermore I would be very pleasently surprised if the discussion turns out to be constructive. Edit: Let me start being constructive. I admit you would have had very little other options (if any) other than freezing accounts, working out how much you have exactly. And then working out a strategy to give everyone as close to what they deserve. I also understand hard choices would have to be made and that all this is done in your free time. However I do currently disagree with the resulting time span for such a resolution and very much so with some of the choices made already, as well as in the way some things have been/are being communicated.
Din Chao	Posted - 2009.09.16 21:44:00 - [811] Originally by: Athre Originally by: Din Chao Or people like me. I deposited 400 mil before learning of the freeze (but after it was announced, so supposedly I'm allowed to withdraw it), and now wait for the day (if ever) when I can get it back. Din you were process about an hour ago. I've been checking withdrawals weekly (for post deposits and withdrawals off those sums)and didnt get to it sunday. I did them this morning before I go off to work. Thank you. Please disregard my email and reopening of the ticket, as obviously you're still having issues with the site and I replied as though the withdrawal had not occured, as the site is reporting. ... I don't know if that sentence made sense ... Me = Happy You = Ignore email/reopening of ticket Thanks again.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.09.17 01:43:00 - [812] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: LaVista Vista dumber stuff slightly better dumb stuff This academic discussion on short and long term economics is kind of a joke. The both of you need to stop thinking you learned something from Econ 101 before you make either of you look worse by trying to claim entirely false and/or controversial things as facts. When you get a masters+ in economics, you come back and have a real discussion. Thanks kids On a lighter note, everyone should just write off their isk as dead. The scam worked and it looks like they are writing this off on a few people and trying to emerge without a giant black eye on most of their reps. Congrats. Only about 25% of players play EVE long enough to ever see a dime back from EBank anyway, I am guessing they are hoping this is the case. Here's for keeping people responsible for being incompetent and/or scamming the bank outta 1.27T isk on the BoD. At least they will get paid when all is said and done (1-5yrs?), but depositors will not. The salaries thread is hilarious btw, after trying to claim that the avg salary was something like ~200m per a month and then releasing those, probably doctored, facts is kind of great too. /troll -GV
Alweo Amarr Magus Initiative	Posted - 2009.09.17 12:59:00 - [813] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 17/09/2009 02:01:09 They should rename the thread "How to scam 1.27T isk and get away with it" The sort of arrogance and absence of humility of the people responsible for this debacle is truly enlightening. The truest words I have heard spoken about this fiasco yet. Fortunately I withdrew the majority of my funds before the lockdown. Good luck to those who are still battling for theirs.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.17 14:22:00 - [814] Originally by: Alweo Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 17/09/2009 02:01:09 They should rename the thread "How to scam 1.27T isk and get away with it" The sort of arrogance and absence of humility of the people responsible for this debacle is truly enlightening. The truest words I have heard spoken about this fiasco yet. Fortunately I withdrew the majority of my funds before the lockdown. Good luck to those who are still battling for theirs. Well, the management at ebank has finally listened to their customers, or at least the forum trolls.
Hoo Is	Posted - 2009.09.17 14:23:00 - [815] Originally by: Alweo Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 17/09/2009 02:01:09 They should rename the thread "How to scam 1.27T isk and get away with it" The sort of arrogance and absence of humility of the people responsible for this debacle is truly enlightening. The truest words I have heard spoken about this fiasco yet. Fortunately I withdrew the majority of my funds before the lockdown. Good luck to those who are still battling for theirs. When did it get renamed? And what is the current status? ---- a reply which adds nothing to a thread or results in a thread being bumped with no new discussion worthy content is considered spam and as such warrants a forum ban
Stygian Knight Bannable Offense. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.09.17 14:29:00 - [816] Needs to be moved to C&P
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.17 14:41:00 - [817] The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire We don't need no water Let the mother ****er burn. I've had a change of heart. Since I had no capital in ebank, I now 100% approve of McCormack's actions and direction with ebank. This is the most fun MD has had since, well, the last time ebank announced a bunch of money missing. Please let me know if ebank does launch an IPO, so I can buy a share of this epic piece of history. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.09.17 15:39:00 - [818] Originally by: Hoo Is Originally by: Alweo Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 17/09/2009 02:01:09 They should rename the thread "How to scam 1.27T isk and get away with it" The sort of arrogance and absence of humility of the people responsible for this debacle is truly enlightening. The truest words I have heard spoken about this fiasco yet. Fortunately I withdrew the majority of my funds before the lockdown. Good luck to those who are still battling for theirs. When did it get renamed? And what is the current status? Seems the board mods have a sence of humor to rename it to that. Face the facts people the cash is gone and there just waiting for you to go away. all the people at Ebank are realy doing is trying to milk whats left for what they can get out of it. **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.09.17 16:23:00 - [819] Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/09/2009 16:24:28 Edited by: Le Skunk on 17/09/2009 16:23:39 Originally by: Le Skunk The bank staff are being mugs: Slaving Away Being Insulted Left Right and Center Hacing to sit reading patronising mails. Generaly being treated like butlers This will go on for 1 year or more. Then IF they manage to break even again, they are simply going to have 95% of their money withdrawn. So they are stressed and treated like ** for a year because of someone elses bad management/embezzelment, in return for the closing of the bank anyway. The obvious course of action is to pay each investor back the corresponding % of their account total and shut the bank (E-Honor is saved, Customers praise the lord they got some isk back) OR Just rob the lot and split it up amongst the top dogs (Makes a good end to the EBANK saga an will probably get into the mainstream news (good for EVE SKUNK As I said Its no suprise the Ebank staff (even if they had good intentions at the start) are getting hacked off at being whined at and treated like monkey butlers for absolutly no benefit to themselves. This is being demonstrated by curt, sarcastic and downright belligerant responses in this thread (and others) from the staff and indeed the humourous (or is it) thread title change (which would have to have been done by the OP). Just keep 10%-20% of whatever is left for your time and hard work, pay proportionally whatever % of the isk back to the investors, and blame riddic for the rest** Given a year, most of the investors would make a lot more through their own investments then you will behemoth style. Everyone's happy. SKUNK (o)
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.17 17:02:00 - [820] Ray, You have taken on a job that no sane person would ever attempt. Now you are sending cries of help through the topic title. We are simply worried about your mental health. The isk is gone and it is never coming back. It's time to move on.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts	Posted - 2009.09.17 17:06:00 - [821] Originally by: Claire Voyant Ray, You have taken on a job that no sane person would ever attempt. Now you are sending cries of help through the topic title. We are simply worried about your mental health. The isk is gone and it is never coming back. It's time to move on. Could be the forum board mods having fun with us.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.17 17:19:00 - [822] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Could be the forum board mods having fun with us. Doesn't seem likely, but now Ray seems to have found a new source of funding for recovering the deficit. I feel sorry for all the people not around to refresh their browsers every few minutes.
dontworrybehappy	Posted - 2009.09.17 17:48:00 - [823] Hi, I have a small ding a ling. :-(
Kar Yu Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.09.17 18:30:00 - [824] Its already almost a month since it was anounced by EBANK about the scam of Ridic. Now, lets talk about serious things. Most of the major players in EVE make more money then the interest paid by EBANK. Im not one of those players but im close. I have about 500mil isk deposited in EBANK that I really need some of it. I understand the freeze on the bank operations that you guys made. If panic was (and it is) installed, every client would whitdraw the money making things worst. What I dont understand, and I think its a f**k...ing excuse of your part is to totaly freeze interest. Has you said, 500 BIL is nothing compared whit the trilions of isk you guys have at OUR expense. Its totaly unfair you freeze the daily interest on the accounts! For the big players im sure they dont care, but for medium players like me, that daily interest might make the diference at the end of the month just to get a GTC. Will EBANK ever repay its custumers about it? Its not our problem that you put people that were involved in other scams. In real world bank, if a bank have things like this, its not the client fault. Its the management bank fault. But I never saw a bank freeze accounts on clients and even if they did, the goverment of that country will certain make something about it. Well we dont have a goverment but we have CCP. What if all the clients petition CCP to look at ur accounts in game and check the transactions made and get out money? Probaly that would not be much fair too.... My point is, I agree that clients should not take the money from EBANK, after all, if we deposited money in you guys, believed that you could indeed make a diference after all the scams, we should all support you. Will you ever support your clients because of your mistakes? Should we pay for it? At least repay us the frozen interest that you have mantained since this happend, and surely 1.5% month its total crap. I think we deserve something better after this. If you dont manage to provide a better and safe way to keep our money, I think most of you clients will get they money has soon they can...or you can always find more scams to avoid that...ok im sorry...im getting sinical... Just want to make a point, hope I dindt offend anyone and of course, has a EBANK client im worried and I wish to see my investment, my faith and my trusted repaid. p.s. Sorry for any misspell words. Regards, ___________________________ Kar YU Shadow Front [SD-FX] ___________________________ "Do, or do not! There is no try" - Yoda, Jedi Master
Dretzle Omega Caldari Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts	Posted - 2009.09.17 18:35:00 - [825] Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 17/09/2009 18:35:40 Originally by: Kar Yu In real world bank, if a bank have things like this, its not the client fault. Its the management bank fault. But I never saw a bank freeze accounts on clients and even if they did, the goverment of that country will certain make something about it. Actually, they have. It's happened. Um... pretty recently, too... Happens especially for stock markets, as well. EDIT: Oh, and fail for referencing real world. If you want government action, get in your ship and go pod Ray and Co. That's your government in Eve.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.17 18:57:00 - [826] Some people say there's a woman to blame, but you know it's your own damn fault.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.17 19:09:00 - [827] Originally by: Kar Yu Its already almost a month since it was anounced by EBANK about the scam of Ridic. Now, lets talk about serious things. Most of the major players in EVE make more money then the interest paid by EBANK. Im not one of those players but im close. I have about 500mil isk deposited in EBANK that I really need some of it. I understand the freeze on the bank operations that you guys made. If panic was (and it is) installed, every client would whitdraw the money making things worst. What I dont understand, and I think its a f**k...ing excuse of your part is to totaly freeze interest. Has you said, 500 BIL is nothing compared whit the trilions of isk you guys have at OUR expense. Its totaly unfair you freeze the daily interest on the accounts! For the big players im sure they dont care, but for medium players like me, that daily interest might make the diference at the end of the month just to get a GTC. Will EBANK ever repay its custumers about it? Its not our problem that you put people that were involved in other scams. In real world bank, if a bank have things like this, its not the client fault. Its the management bank fault. But I never saw a bank freeze accounts on clients and even if they did, the goverment of that country will certain make something about it. Well we dont have a goverment but we have CCP. What if all the clients petition CCP to look at ur accounts in game and check the transactions made and get out money? Probaly that would not be much fair too.... My point is, I agree that clients should not take the money from EBANK, after all, if we deposited money in you guys, believed that you could indeed make a diference after all the scams, we should all support you. Will you ever support your clients because of your mistakes? Should we pay for it? At least repay us the frozen interest that you have mantained since this happend, and surely 1.5% month its total crap. I think we deserve something better after this. If you dont manage to provide a better and safe way to keep our money, I think most of you clients will get they money has soon they can...or you can always find more scams to avoid that...ok im sorry...im getting sinical... Just want to make a point, hope I dindt offend anyone and of course, has a EBANK client im worried and I wish to see my investment, my faith and my trusted repaid. p.s. Sorry for any misspell words. Regards, Don't get me wrong I am no fan of EBANK and I also disagree about how they are planning to run the bank, but.... You should not leave a large amount of cash you require with ANY third party. Secondly if you deposited money into EBANK you were fully aware at the time that the interest rate was 1.5%, and certainly wouldn't go any higher. EBANK always stated it was a private institution, so they chose not to listen to their customers, who are now finding out that very important fact. If you want even a small part of your cash out I think you will all need to wait until the next announcement is made Oct 15th - Nov 1st. At that point other players may make offers on account balances so smaller players can cash out if they wish.
Comrade Commizzar	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:06:00 - [828] What?? You people are STILL wasting time listening to La Vista and Ray? OK I give up... So then let me ask La Vista and Ray a serious question that really gets to the heart of this situation.... WHAT KIND OF LUBRICANT DO YOU GUYS USE WHEN WHACKING OFF WHILE YOU WRITE THIS STUFF??
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:35:00 - [829] Originally by: Comrade Commizzar What?? You people are STILL wasting time listening to La Vista and Ray? OK I give up... So then let me ask La Vista and Ray a serious question that really gets to the heart of this situation.... WHAT KIND OF LUBRICANT DO YOU GUYS USE WHEN WHACKING OFF WHILE YOU WRITE THIS STUFF?? The sweat from the trolls in this thread.
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:40:00 - [830] Kudos to Comrade Commizzar for reminding me of a very nice quotation (his centrist views may be forgiven...): Originally by: Leon Trotsky There is a limit to the application of democratic methods. You can inquire of all the passengers as to what type of car they like to ride in, but it is impossible to question them as to whether to apply the brakes when the train is at full speed and accident threatens. despite all witty criticism - this. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:51:00 - [831] I agree no comitee decisions on braking. But you do not have to keep al passengers starving and locked inside while you are waiting for replacement parts to be shipped in from the other side of the world either.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.17 20:59:00 - [832] Originally by: Leneerra I agree no comitee decisions on braking. But you do not have to keep al passengers starving and locked inside while you are waiting for replacement parts to be shipped in from the other side of the world either. The analogy you use assume that people can get away without taking a loss. That can't be the case here.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.17 21:07:00 - [833] if you get out of the train you will have to arrange transport to the busses or next station as well. And where do you get the opinion there is no loss on ebank accounts right now? In about a week I will have lost rougly 130m already. This is of course assuming I will ever get my ebank isk converted to ccp isk again at a 100% rate wich seems unlikely at this time.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.17 21:59:00 - [834] October announcement: completion of the Ebank BOD titan fleet is complete. Bye! Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.18 01:08:00 - [835] Originally by: Dzil October announcement: completion of the Ebank BOD titan fleet is complete. Bye! October announcement: "After a full audit and months of work the Board of Directors of EBANK voted and are pleased to announce that there will be another announcement at the earliest of Decmber 15th and January 1st 2010 at the latest."
Kar Yu Gallente Shadow Front	Posted - 2009.09.18 04:22:00 - [836] Originally by: cosmoray Don't get me wrong I am no fan of EBANK and I also disagree about how they are planning to run the bank, but.... You should not leave a large amount of cash you require with ANY third party. Secondly if you deposited money into EBANK you were fully aware at the time that the interest rate was 1.5%, and certainly wouldn't go any higher. EBANK always stated it was a private institution, so they chose not to listen to their customers, who are now finding out that very important fact. If you want even a small part of your cash out I think you will all need to wait until the next announcement is made Oct 15th - Nov 1st. At that point other players may make offers on account balances so smaller players can cash out if they wish. I am aware of the risks and I know the interest rate was 1.5% and it would stay like that. Thats not the point. The point is the interest should never had been freezed and it was. For a Bank that says have more the 3 trilions I think its pure bull****. Also im very aware that prob Ridic dindt do this alone and EBANK prob will close soon lol so I might say bye bye to my 500mil. And btw, I have 500 mil whit them cause I was away from the game the whole summer, after 3 months I even thought I was very short of money on EVE when I found out that much of my orders did well and some others closed and the money was returned. So Im not in a serious situation. I can always play poker too... prob its the best investment in eve lol ___________________________ Kar YU Shadow Front [SD-FX] ___________________________ "Do, or do not! There is no try" - Yoda, Jedi Master
Kar Yu Gallente Shadow Front Skwerlien Abduction	Posted - 2009.09.18 04:27:00 - [837] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Comrade Commizzar What?? You people are STILL wasting time listening to La Vista and Ray? OK I give up... So then let me ask La Vista and Ray a serious question that really gets to the heart of this situation.... WHAT KIND OF LUBRICANT DO YOU GUYS USE WHEN WHACKING OFF WHILE YOU WRITE THIS STUFF?? The sweat from the trolls in this thread. Can you blame them? "Us"? You try to be serious, but....you dindt even had the courage to reply to my post or answer my questions... If you really serious about EBANK you better fix everything QUICK and release our money for us to deposit or whitdraw as we want. ___________________________ Kar YU Shadow Front [SD-FX] ___________________________ "Do, or do not! There is no try" - Yoda, Jedi Master
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.18 07:45:00 - [838] Originally by: Kar Yu Can you blame them? "Us"? You try to be serious, but....you dindt even had the courage to reply to my post or answer my questions... If you really serious about EBANK you better fix everything QUICK and release our money for us to deposit or whitdraw as we want. I don't blame people who can't help it. I'm not like that. As for your questions, which questions? But you are right. We should fix everything RIGHT NOW and release all the money. It's totally possible for us to make 1.2 trillion ISK over night.
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.18 10:04:00 - [839] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Kar Yu Can you blame them? "Us"? You try to be serious, but....you dindt even had the courage to reply to my post or answer my questions... If you really serious about EBANK you better fix everything QUICK and release our money for us to deposit or whitdraw as we want. I don't blame people who can't help it. I'm not like that. As for your questions, which questions? But you are right. We should fix everything RIGHT NOW and release all the money. It's totally possible for us to make 1.2 trillion ISK over night. Paging Mr Trump to buy some GTC. brb --------
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.18 11:52:00 - [840] Ray, I will pay 1b for: "What happens when you give your money to a unregulated uninsured bank" but I want a trusted 3rd party to hold the money until the thread drops off the first two MD pages.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.18 12:35:00 - [841] Who do you have in mind? Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kar Yu Gallente Shadow Front Skwerlien Abduction	Posted - 2009.09.18 15:33:00 - [842] Originally by: LaVista Vista I don't blame people who can't help it. I'm not like that. Ok........ Originally by: LaVista Vista As for your questions, which questions? I guess my long post was too long....but nvm... Originally by: LaVista Vista But you are right. We should fix everything RIGHT NOW and release all the money. It's totally possible for us to make 1.2 trillion ISK over night. I am??? So, what was the problem whit EBANK again? <----- question So, if its so easy for EBANK to make "1.2 trillion over night", why we got accounts freeze? <------ question Why did we get our interest freezed? <----- question I tell you why. Cause I think the damage was bigger that you guys said and you had to freeze all the accounts to make more money, thats why you saying that eveything should return to normal now almost after 1 month.... ___________________________ Kar YU Shadow Front [SD-FX] ___________________________ "Do, or do not! There is no try" - Yoda, Jedi Master
Noxford	Posted - 2009.09.18 15:47:00 - [843] EBANK lost 75b in Salaries? Losses to date have occurred as follows: 1. ~250b û Ricdic Theft. 2. ~380b û Loan Defaults 3. >48b û Share Losses 4. ~466b û Interest Paid 5. ~75b û Salaries _____________________________ - Noxford Realtor Services -
Amarr Citizen 155 Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.18 16:35:00 - [844] Originally by: Noxford EBANK lost 75b in Salaries? Losses to date have occurred as follows: 1. ~250b û Ricdic Theft. 2. ~380b û Loan Defaults 3. >48b û Share Losses 4. ~466b û Interest Paid 5. ~75b û Salaries Welcome to the party, you are 28 pages late. There is another thread that breaks down the salaries issue but I'll let you go find it so you can say you did more than read the first post in this thread before replying. <Amarr's signature>
Dretzle Omega Caldari Global Economy Experts Stellar Economy Experts	Posted - 2009.09.18 17:11:00 - [845] Originally by: Kar Yu Originally by: LaVista Vista But you are right. We should fix everything RIGHT NOW and release all the money. It's totally possible for us to make 1.2 trillion ISK over night. I am??? So, what was the problem whit EBANK again? <----- question So, if its so easy for EBANK to make "1.2 trillion over night", why we got accounts freeze? <------ question Why did we get our interest freezed? <----- question I tell you why. Cause I think the damage was bigger that you guys said and you had to freeze all the accounts to make more money, thats why you saying that eveything should return to normal now almost after 1 month.... LaVista was being sarcastic.
Zilnam Haa Gallente Brood of Redemption	Posted - 2009.09.18 20:37:00 - [846] From Ray: "We'll make the process known in the Oct 15 - Nov 1 announcement" Thx Ray for this post & GL Raan
AirCond	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:20:00 - [847] I Need my ISK back all 6 Bill of it.
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2009.09.19 16:51:00 - [848] Are there still any zero collateral loans? If so how many and for how much.
Sun Ra The Water Margin	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:03:00 - [849] Whats the topic change about? AHUH AHUH AHUH AHUH
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.09.19 23:24:00 - [850] Originally by: Sun Ra Whats the topic change about? It's hard to keep track of all the permutations, but here's the short version: -First it was changed to "How to scam 1.27T isk and get away with it" (you'll have to go back a couple of pages to see why.) -The next one I remember was Ray offering to sell the naming rights for 1B - Then there was one about him getting in trouble for changing the title so much. - Then it went back to the "title for sale" meme. I'm sure I'm missing a few, but that's the gist. I have offered 1B for "What happens when you give your money to a unregulated uninsured bank" but Ray has not responded to my ingame requests to seal the deal, so maybe he has regained his sanity.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:09:00 - [851] I think the title renaming is ust a different tactick to have this tread drop from page 1.. on questions: Can you explain to me how setting intrest on saving accounts to 0 is not losing me isk? and : Can you explain me why lost isk from no intrest is different from losing isk on liquidating accounts?
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.09.20 09:44:00 - [852] I am no big friend of EBANK but I am bored and this endless discussion begins to annoy me... Originally by: Leneerra Can you explain to me how setting intrest on saving accounts to 0 is not losing me isk? you are losing some ISK, plain and simple. Originally by: Leneerra Can you explain me why lost isk from no intrest is different from losing isk on liquidating accounts? Assuming you had your money in a 1.5% account and EBANK will reopen 12 months after freezing withdrawals/cancelling interest, you have lost about 16% of your money (ca. 30% if you had a 3% account). With instant liquidation you would loose 63% of the facevalue of your account (add to this the lost interest payments) - so, you should only demand liquidation if you manage to generate 8.5%/month on the payout and if minerals you mine yourself are free. whether 12 months is a realistic timeframe or not is ofc a very different matter (but not one your post did take into account). seriously, all that is to be said has probably already been said during the last few weeks - emoraging about your lost internet moneyz will not change anything. At this point you can only wait and see what "solution" Ray will come up with. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:06:00 - [853] While I partially agree I would like to see an answer from eBank themselves. Some of their representatives have stated they cannot liquidate because that would mean the accountholders lose so much of their isk (roughly 60% at this time as far as my information goes). But they completely ignore the iskloss they are causing by keeping our isk locked up for an indetrminate period of time. I want them to acknowledge that no mater what they do they will cause me and every other accountholder to take a loss. After repeatedly stating there was no possibility to get our isk liquidated they claimed to have the support of their accountholders because nobody had formally reqeusted them to liquidate their account. Of course this argument was easey put to rest by putting in just such a request in their ticked system, and since then such claims have not been made. I know I will make a loss when I liquidate my account. I think it is the duty of the ebank board to tell me how much I would lose, what alternatives they CAN offer me and every other accountholder out there and allow us to decide what we want to do with whatever remains of OUR isk. I do not accept their straw man argument that it would cost account holders isk and therefore liquidation is not an option. Whatever solution is picked it will cost accountholders isk and I think they should acknowledge that fact and allow us to chose what we think is best for us rather than being force fed their idealist choice.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.09.20 12:39:00 - [854] Originally by: Leneerra Some of their representatives have stated they cannot liquidate because that would mean the accountholders lose so much of their isk (roughly 60% at this time as far as my information goes). But they completely ignore the iskloss they are causing by keeping our isk locked up for an indetrminate period of time. Nobody is ignoring the fact that some account holders just wants to have a % of their ISK out. However it's not that simple.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.20 13:56:00 - [855] I am not intrested in hearing that it is not simple. I want to know what I am allowed to do with my ebank isk. I want to hear what options are availeble to me. I want to know how much your failure has cost me. I am not intrested in ebanks future development other than as an option I can CHOOSE to participate in or NOT. If liquidating now means I will only get say 10% just tell me and let me make my own decicions about my own isk Tell me what options you can provide. The schedule for information you have presented thus far means I will personally have lost between 200M and 300M without me having any say in the matter. All you are saying is we failed you, now hang in there and suck it up till we tell you how bad it is going to be. I have had it with your reassurences. I want options.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:06:00 - [856] I'll restate then what has been repeated ad nauseam. Your choices will be detailed in the next announcement due Oct 15 - Nov 1st. Liquidation will not be an option. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.20 14:56:00 - [857] So you are scamming me for anything between 200M and 300M (1 to 2 months worth of intrest) before you will even tell me what options I will have to lose isk on this whole thing? I will repeat as often that that this is not accepteble. of course I can do little else than post about it.
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.20 16:33:00 - [858] Originally by: Leneerra [...] of course I can do little else than post about it. Quite right. --------
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.20 17:01:00 - [859] So you will cease claiming it is in my best intrest that you do this?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.20 22:29:00 - [860] Originally by: Leneerra So you will cease claiming it is in my best intrest that you do this? Educate me, since when a bank has done its depositors interests? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.09.20 23:18:00 - [861] It's amazing how, through all of this, Ebank and staff have still, at least to the majority of individuals with whom I've spoken, remained the "good guys". Well played, gents. -L
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.09.21 00:30:00 - [862] Edited by: Reilly Duvolle on 21/09/2009 00:31:02 Originally by: Lecherito It's amazing how, through all of this, Ebank and staff have still, at least to the majority of individuals with whom I've spoken, remained the "good guys". Well played, gents. -L I dunno. Maybe you have spoken to the wrong people s. The EBANK based their credibility on having a lot of EVE Celebs on the board. "Good guys" as you call them. But it only shows that even good guys have their price, as they are now running the biggest scam-scheme in EVE. Personally, I am just waiting for when Chribba falls from glory.
PyroTech03 Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.09.21 01:46:00 - [863] wow.....i joined EVE Online during a fun filled time lol ----- Short signiatures suck :(
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2009.09.21 02:26:00 - [864] Hey Ray, or other EBANK guys. Are there still any zero collateral loans? If so how many and for how much.?
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.21 12:16:00 - [865] Originally by: Leneerra So you will cease claiming it is in my best intrest that you do this? Where did they claim it was in your best interest? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Orexis Kirhal Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.21 14:53:00 - [866] Leneerra, just stfu... seriously. You dont deserve anything back from them. It's your money? no, it's in their accounts, it's theirs. Quit whining before they get fed up with all the account holders wanting their money "now" and end up actually just saying screw it and taking all the money. With all this *****ing going on, and everyone saying they're just going to pull their money out immediately, Ebank's BOD might just see they dont have much reason to try to keep the bank together and just keep what they have and say screw off. We gave them money knowing the risk. There is no "law" or "rule" which governs what they can do with it. As far as ccp is concerned, we gave them a gift of isk. So rub your little lucky rabbits foot and wait like the rest of us.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.21 18:17:00 - [867] Orexis, I will be very open to you. I care nothing for your isk. I care very little for your opinion on me. If they decide to close down ebank and scam us all for whatever remains just because I (and perhaps some others) could not keep their trap shut then they would surely show themselves to be far far less than I currently value their individual integrity. Over the past 2 years eBank has managed to lose money as a whole. If I judge them by past performance then there will be less isk, not more, to divide by the time they have made up their mind on what options they do allow me to free whatever remains of MY isk. If you have so much trust in them do you offer me 60% of my account value today? Pay me 60% after an ebank employee confirms my balance and we arrange the transfer, I will even accept and ebank employee to provide third party service in this. (That 40% loss is roughly the same as the interest payments I lose on the account in their projected 1 year freeze) Haggle on the price or shut you own face. Ebank has made sure they are effectively untouchable in game. I cannot wardec them effectively (or pay a merc to do so), I cannot threaten them in game. I cannot force them in any way. They lost my isk and state they will have me wait for an indeterminate amount of time while they decide what options they think are acceptable for MY isk. They made sure all I could do about it is whine about it. So that is what I do until they provide options. They have proven they are incapable of deciding about my isk (and perhaps I have as well, having handed my isk over to them). But at least if they say I can forget about my isk I will know where I stand and whom I should trust in the future.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.21 19:38:00 - [868] Originally by: Leneerra But at least if they say I can forget about my isk I will know where I stand and whom I should trust in the future. You can forget about your isk.......... .........until the next update from Ray. Oh and don't forget rule #1: Trust no one but yourself. Be suspicious of everyone, including yourself. <Amarr's signature>
TraderAlt 3104989531	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:36:00 - [869] You go Leneerra, so far you are the only real voice of opposition I hear. Put their feet to the flame, even if it only on this forum. They can't control what we post and if that irritates them so be it, you raise good points. As a side not, can anyone set up a counter that shows how much ISK ebank has lost since it's founding? (something like this). I'd be happy to throw some isk your way if you could.
Hoo Is	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:49:00 - [870] Originally by: Leneerra So you are scamming me for anything between 200M and 300M (1 to 2 months worth of intrest) before you will even tell me what options I will have to lose isk on this whole thing? I will repeat as often that that this is not accepteble. of course I can do little else than post about it. After listening to your trap flapping non-stop even though everything you have asked has already been answered 514 times... If I were on the BoD, I'd make sure you didn't get a single isk back. Your account would be zeroed out to help our other account holders just because you are bing a PITA ---- a reply which adds nothing to a thread or results in a thread being bumped with no new discussion worthy content is considered spam and as such warrants a forum ban
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.09.21 20:58:00 - [871] Originally by: Hoo Is Originally by: Leneerra So you are scamming me for anything between 200M and 300M (1 to 2 months worth of intrest) before you will even tell me what options I will have to lose isk on this whole thing? I will repeat as often that that this is not accepteble. of course I can do little else than post about it. After listening to your trap flapping non-stop even though everything you have asked has already been answered 514 times... If I were on the BoD, I'd make sure you didn't get a single isk back. Your account would be zeroed out to help our other account holders just because you are bing a PITA This should be called pro-active scamming. On Oct 15th they will announce a list with all the people who haven't complained and give them back 100%. All the rest of the money is in a pot, and there will be a huge battle in low sec with winner takes all from all the moaners
Mjolnirsmith	Posted - 2009.09.21 22:16:00 - [872] I'm with Leneera on this. The suggestion that the "bank" should somehow punish Leneera for her dissent only makes sense if the "bank" is not a bank but a scam that is stringing us along. The very idea that the "bank" members should somehow single out people who complain and punish them for it is not in keeping with the concept of a "bank". The standoffish demeanor of Ray in most of this thread is also not in keeping with how a "bank" should operate. Large parts of this thread suffer from a horrible is/ought conflation. There are many punitive, terrible things that Ray and ebank could do with other people's isk. That does not mean that they would be justified in doing so, at least insofar as they consider themselves a "bank". When you claim to roleplay as a banking institution but act with the demeanor of a taunting pirate, complete with botched priorities (it's our isk, and should be our choice about what gets done with it: that is if you treat our deposits as banking transaction) and an insulting attitude towards customers, you are a scammer. I guess one of the most aggravating things about this fiasco is that ebank members periodically post as if they want to continue with the "banking roleplaying" part of ebank (and people continue to suck up to them about it!), yet their method of handling our deposited isk in face of this crisis belies the behavior of disrespectful scammer/pirates. I've said it before: you really do not have the right to set the timetable and terms by which you will try to make amends and fix ebank, even if as a matter of fact (i.e. because you hold our isk hostage) you have the power to do so.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.22 16:05:00 - [873] AC155, I hope you understand when I say I consider your humor currently too expensive for my taste. But it really clarifies the situation if all I can do is whine and all you can do is make jokes about it. I will dig deep in my personal reserves of humor and try not to take your remark too serious. Mjolnirsmith, Sorry to name you in one post with someone telling me not to trust him until October the 15th at least (should I take his answer seriously). But you do seem to follow my thinking on this matter. I would be appalled should people such as AC155, Ray MCCormack, Athre, LaVistaVista and whomever else I may still trust on that board drop their names in the gutter for all to see over a few posts and a measly account value of 4.4B isk before losses
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.22 19:56:00 - [874] Originally by: Leneerra AC155, I hope you understand when I say I consider your humor currently too expensive for my taste. But it really clarifies the situation if all I can do is whine and all you can do is make jokes about it. I will dig deep in my personal reserves of humor and try not to take your remark too serious. At the moment you essentially have two options. 1. Wait until the next announcement and whine about things until it comes 2. Wait until the next announcement I canÆt make the choice for you but I can try to bring humor into a **ty situation, if for nothing else than my own benefit. I know the situation as a whole is far from ideal but I can tell you with 100% certainty that no amount of whining/flaming/trolling/anything else is going to change things before the next announcement. Feel free to continue but remember that it is your wasted time/energy/effort. Originally by:** Leneerra I would be appalled should people such as AC155, Ray MCCormack, Athre, LaVistaVista and whomever else I may still trust on that board drop their names in the gutter for all to see over a few posts and a measly account value of 4.4B isk before losses LVV is not on the Ebank BoD. IÆm really not concerned about my name being dropped into your gutter. Eve is a game that I try not to take too seriously, IÆd suggest you try doing the same. <Amarr's signature>
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2009.09.22 21:00:00 - [875] "whine in here" ? What a totally insulting way to talk to people who entrusted their isk to Ebank All you can do now is liquidate....I know that you know that so why not just say so? People aren't expecting much from this anymore. They have seen how rubbish the 'elite team' turned out to be. So if you gonna give them back 10% 15% or whatever then just GET ON WITH IT!!!. How hard is it to say :- "We are in the process of gathering together whatever is left and will distribute that to account holders as soon as we have devised a mechanism for so doing"? That's all there is for you to do now.......collect whatever isk is left and distribute it. And tbh you are showing yourself as rubbish at doing that as Ebank was at making isk.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:29:00 - [876] Originally by: Roguehalo "whine in here" ? What a totally insulting way to talk to people who entrusted their isk to Ebank All you can do now is liquidate....I know that you know that so why not just say so? People aren't expecting much from this anymore. They have seen how rubbish the 'elite team' turned out to be. So if you gonna give them back 10% 15% or whatever then just GET ON WITH IT!!!. How hard is it to say :- "We are in the process of gathering together whatever is left and will distribute that to account holders as soon as we have devised a mechanism for so doing"? That's all there is for you to do now.......collect whatever isk is left and distribute it. And tbh you are showing yourself as rubbish at doing that as Ebank was at making isk. Isn't it the usual Ebank tactic to insult their customer base when questioned? At this point, I think it's clear to most of us that they won't simply liquidate. Regardless of whether or not it's the right decision to make, I doubt it's even being considered as a serious option. They are clinging desperately to the project that they've invested so many man hours in. Can't say that I wouldn't do the same. I understand how it can be when you've put so much effort into something. That doesn't make it the right thing to do though. My prediction is that Ebank will offer 2 options: 1. An Ebank controlled auction-style buyout to third-parties for those who want a percentage of their isk now. 2. Keep your account and be able to withdraw in a year or two. It's certain that they will have a huge run in withdrawls the moment they allow them. We know that, Ebank knows that. I'd bet that they are going to use that to their advantage by liquidating before enabling withdrawls, then using the run to reduce their overall size. There will surely be those who don't withdrawl and those that are inactive, so they will use that remaining capital and reassess their projects and investments accordingly. Not a bad plan, really. We can discuss payment for it after it's used.
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:38:00 - [877] Originally by: Leneerra I would be appalled should people such as AC155, Ray MCCormack, Athre, LaVistaVista and whomever else I may still trust on that board drop their names in the gutter for all to see over a few posts and a measly account value of 4.4B isk before losses Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll restate then what has been repeated ad nauseam. Your choices will be detailed in the next announcement due Oct 15 - Nov 1st. Liquidation will not be an option. As depositors, we're screwed. We're losing money every minute that we aren't earning interest, or have it in our personal wallets where we could be making money off of it ourselves. Now, we are waiting to see if our options will improve over the initial "we'll get you your principal, eventually." As for me, I've accepted the fact that we're going to have to wait 'til the end of October to hear anything new. So I'll wait. If anyone else "still trusts" the EBank BoD as Leneerra does, I suggest they suck it up and do the same. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.22 22:47:00 - [878] Originally by: Drab Cane Originally by: Leneerra I would be appalled should people such as AC155, Ray MCCormack, Athre, LaVistaVista and whomever else I may still trust on that board drop their names in the gutter for all to see over a few posts and a measly account value of 4.4B isk before losses Originally by: Ray McCormack I'll restate then what has been repeated ad nauseam. Your choices will be detailed in the next announcement due Oct 15 - Nov 1st. Liquidation will not be an option. As depositors, we're screwed. We're losing money every minute that we aren't earning interest, or have it in our personal wallets where we could be making money off of it ourselves. Now, we are waiting to see if our options will improve over the initial "we'll get you your principal, eventually." As for me, I've accepted the fact that we're going to have to wait 'til the end of October to hear anything new. So I'll wait. If anyone else "still trusts" the EBank BoD as Leneerra does, I suggest they suck it up and do the same. People are wrong to assume that they are losing 1.5% monthly in interest. They are actually losing a much higher percentage. If opportunity cost applies to minerals, datacores, and salvage, then it also applies to profit lost by the isk being unavailable.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.22 23:00:00 - [879] It's different for everyone depending on what they'd be doing with the money if they had access to it.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.22 23:08:00 - [880] Originally by: SetrakDark It's different for everyone depending on what they'd be doing with the money if they had access to it. No no, it's always the maximum amount of profit that can be generated from the isk, whether the person would actually use it or not.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.22 23:15:00 - [881] Originally by: Solisk No no, it's always the maximum amount of profit that can be generated from the isk, whether the person would actually use it or not. I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.22 23:28:00 - [882] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Solisk No no, it's always the maximum amount of profit that can be generated from the isk, whether the person would actually use it or not. I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that. It was sarcasm (not specifically direct towards you).
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.22 23:47:00 - [883] ahhhh ok. nice background btw
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2009.09.22 23:59:00 - [884] For those who need to watch their mounting losses: Interest Loss Counter You can check it every day to see the interest percentage you've lost to date. Solisk: Agreed, there are also opportunity costs for those people who would have withdrawn their money to do something with it. For those who put their ISK into EBank long-term because they couldn't find a more profitable place for it, their interest losses won't become 'real' until they would have wanted to withdraw their funds. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
nemmes Celestial Ascension	Posted - 2009.09.23 01:49:00 - [885] Originally by: Drab Cane Solisk: Agreed, there are also opportunity costs for those people who would have withdrawn their money to do something with it. For those who put their ISK into EBank long-term because they couldn't find a more profitable place for it, their interest losses won't become 'real' until they would have wanted to withdraw their funds. Someone like myself. Liquidated my entire 5,5b asset list to save while i was away from game. Three days later the freeze was announced. All i can say is that i hope the bank is able to turn itself around and start making money again. While investor confidence may be shaken by the current bank issues, I for one am confident, from hearing what ray and Lavista have been commenting on, that a solution to this problem can be found. I won't be withdrawing my money once the freeze is lifted, at least in whole. "Take me up in the arms of fate, with the strength of conviction and the hope of dreams"
Jin Nib	Posted - 2009.09.23 01:54:00 - [886] Originally by: Drab Cane For those who need to watch their mounting losses: Interest Loss Counter You can check it every day to see the interest percentage you've lost to date. Solisk: Agreed, there are also opportunity costs for those people who would have withdrawn their money to do something with it. For those who put their ISK into EBank long-term because they couldn't find a more profitable place for it, their interest losses won't become 'real' until they would have wanted to withdraw their funds. Its not published it says. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2009.09.23 02:50:00 - [887] Hmmm. That didn't work out as cool looking as I hoped. Oh well. Try this link: Interest Loss Counter ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.09.23 03:33:00 - [888] Originally by: nemmes While investor confidence may be shaken by the current bank issues, I for one am confident, from hearing what ray and Lavista have been commenting on, that a solution to this problem can be found. I think other depositors could use some of this reassurance. Could you please direct everyone to the comments whose penetrating insights into this problem helped put your fears at ease? Thanks.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.23 05:41:00 - [889] AC155, I guess you misunderstood me. The gutter I was referring to would be tied to the hypotatical situation where you (ebank) would zero my account because of me complaining abut the lousy way you treat me and your other customers. Thank you for clarefying who is on the ebank board, I must admit I have not kept myself totaly abrest with all the (unpublished) changes since Ricdic's departure. However I was merely referring to some of the names that I connect to ebank that I still consider to have personal integrety (Nobody was ommited from that list on purpose). My blamelist for integrety is still limited to 1 person (please list defaulters (and add underperforming managers etc) as promised so we can start flinging mud in their direction as wel). And while Ray's directness is in a way refreshing, as a whole I would consider ebank a near total failure on customer relations, timely publication of importand issues, internal oversight, as well as the presentation of new features, to be released soon, for over a year. And of course they have so far failed on managing my isk. In all not a shining example.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.23 10:12:00 - [890] Quote: People are wrong to assume that they are losing 1.5% monthly in interest. They are actually losing a much higher percentage. If opportunity cost applies to minerals, datacores, and salvage, then it also applies to profit lost by the isk being unavailable. It's different for everyone depending on what they'd be doing with the money if they had access to it. In any case, the loss cannot be calculated as below pure interest rate over a frozen (hence unable to withdraw) account. For a typical 1B deposit at 1.5% / month, compounded interest past the suggested force-freeze 2 years would be equal to: 429.5M. For a typical 10B deposit at 3% / month savings account, compounded interest past the suggested force-freeze 2 years would be equal to: 10327941064 (10B and 328M). So, those would be the minimum losses. This, unless I made totally wrong math, means that if you had 10B in a savings account, you are going to lose more than your full principal if you could move it into another bank at same interest rate. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Lord Delacroix	Posted - 2009.09.23 13:26:00 - [891] Edited by: Lord Delacroix on 23/09/2009 13:26:52 its just a gigantic ponzi scheme lol. ever since they started running the bank, they had no clue whether or not they are running a deficit... can it get even more obvious that you guys wont get your internets dollars back?
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.23 13:35:00 - [892] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 23/09/2009 10:54:11 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 23/09/2009 10:51:44 Quote: People are wrong to assume that they are losing 1.5% monthly in interest. They are actually losing a much higher percentage. If opportunity cost applies to minerals, datacores, and salvage, then it also applies to profit lost by the isk being unavailable. It's different for everyone depending on what they'd be doing with the money if they had access to it. In any case, the loss cannot be calculated as below pure interest rate over a frozen (hence unable to withdraw) account. For a typical 1B deposit at 1.5% / month, compounded interest past the suggested force-freeze 2 years would be equal to: 429.5M. For a typical 10B deposit at 3% / month savings account, compounded interest past the suggested force-freeze 2 years would be equal to: 10327941064 (10B and 328M). So, those would be the minimum losses. This, unless I made totally wrong math, means that if you had 10B in a savings account, you are going to lose more than your full principal if you could move it into another bank at same interest rate. To enable withdrawals one of the conditions are: "a. Available capital must exceed 1.7t ISK. It currently stands at 0.8t." Starting with 0.8T, to get to 1.7t, EBANK would require to earn 3.24% a month with no withdrawal. Edit: the accounts being frozen was one of the possible exit strategies. Since they want to get back to operativity and not liquidate, frozing the accounts stopped an exponential process of capital drawdown that would have completely depleted EBANK in little time. Unless I'm not following correctly, your math was wrong (off by 1 factor, it seems). The part I want to address is the bolded part. We all know that Ebank is going to have a capital drawdown, as you put it, in the initial hours/days after unfreezing accounts. This means that they undoubtedly know this and plan to use it to their advantage to shrink the size of the bank as a whole. As they are unsure of just how many account holders are going to withdrawl/close accounts, they are going to have to wait until after the run to decide the future of their investment projects. I'm wondering if they aren't counting on account holder "apathy" and inactive accounts to fund their "re-emergence".
Tawron Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.23 13:36:00 - [893] Edited by: Tawron on 23/09/2009 13:35:55 Im not sure what's funniest the fact that Ebank is able to keep the pretence of ever giving people there isk back or the fact people were stupid enough to hand there isk over to a bank in a game where scamming is so free of consequences.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.23 13:43:00 - [894] Originally by: Tawron Edited by: Tawron on 23/09/2009 13:35:55 Im not sure what's funniest the fact that Ebank is able to keep the pretence of ever giving people there isk back or the fact people were stupid enough to hand there isk over to a bank in a game where scamming is so free of consequences. I'm going with option 3. Option 3: The fact that idiots with nothing constructive to say keep popping in and spewing nonsense because they don't have the mental capacity to follow an intelligent discussion. Option 4: The fact that you seem to think people care about what you think. Option 5: The fact that you have so many facts. Factfactfact. All were good options, but option 3 is the best methinks.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.23 13:57:00 - [895] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 At the moment you essentially have two options. 1. Wait until the next announcement and whine about things until it comes 2. Wait until the next announcement There are other options. I would suggest the most vindictive thing you could do would be to start your own bank, succeed where ebank failed, and ensure they are never able to regain a place in the market. At any rate, don't ever accept the false dilemma a salesman gives you. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.23 14:48:00 - [896] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 At the moment you essentially have two options. 1. Wait until the next announcement and whine about things until it comes 2. Wait until the next announcement There are other options. I would suggest the most vindictive thing you could do would be to start your own bank, succeed where ebank failed, and ensure they are never able to regain a place in the market. At any rate, don't ever accept the false dilemma a salesman gives you. You could do that, but that wouldn't address the need to withdraw your isk which is what we are talking about. <Amarr's signature>
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2009.09.23 15:15:00 - [897] AC, are there still any no collateral loans within ebank? If so how many fo what amounts. You guys must have missed my question on page 28/29.
Tawron Viziam	Posted - 2009.09.23 15:19:00 - [898] Edited by: Tawron on 23/09/2009 15:19:22 Originally by: Solisk Words
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.23 18:36:00 - [899] Originally by: tehsuxOr AC, are there still any no collateral loans within ebank? If so how many fo what amounts. You guys must have missed my question on page 28/29. Sorry, been meaning to answer that. Yes, there are still grandfathered loans without collateral. The exact amount and value won't be released. But be assured no new loans are being given without collateral. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
tehsuxOr Poor Old Ornery nOObs	Posted - 2009.09.23 18:59:00 - [900] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: tehsuxOr AC, are there still any no collateral loans within ebank? If so how many fo what amounts. You guys must have missed my question on page 28/29. Sorry, been meaning to answer that. Yes, there are still grandfathered loans without collateral. The exact amount and value won't be released. But be assured no new loans are being given without collateral. Thanks for the reply, was just curious.
josh parker	Posted - 2009.09.24 15:35:00 - [901] Hello Ebank. My main has a loan through your corp. I have made the decision, although not an easy one. That i will not be paying the loan back for at least the next year, maybe even the next two. Also i must ignore any interest i would be paying you over these next two years. Basically, the company we were working on creating, has how can i say, fallen on hard times, and basically its not in our best interest to honor any former agreements with you as our banker. I know this may be unfortunate for ebamk, however i am sorry. I will get back with you in 6-12 months, and inform you if we are able to pay back the loan interest free. Once again i am sorry, but this is the options we give you, it is in the best interest of our company as a whole. - josh
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:44:00 - [902] Originally by: josh parker Hello Ebank. My main has a loan through your corp. I have made the decision, although not an easy one. That i will not be paying the loan back for at least the next year, maybe even the next two. Also i must ignore any interest i would be paying you over these next two years. Basically, the company we were working on creating, has how can i say, fallen on hard times, and basically its not in our best interest to honor any former agreements with you as our banker. I know this may be unfortunate for ebamk, however i am sorry. I will get back with you in 6-12 months, and inform you if we are able to pay back the loan interest free. Once again i am sorry, but this is the options we give you, it is in the best interest of our company as a whole. - josh 0/10. Unfortunately, you are late to the party and your joke isn't original. Maybe next time? <Amarr's signature>
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.09.24 21:52:00 - [903] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: josh parker Hello Ebank. My main has a loan through your corp. I have made the decision, although not an easy one. That i will not be paying the loan back for at least the next year, maybe even the next two. Also i must ignore any interest i would be paying you over these next two years. Basically, the company we were working on creating, has how can i say, fallen on hard times, and basically its not in our best interest to honor any former agreements with you as our banker. I know this may be unfortunate for ebamk, however i am sorry. I will get back with you in 6-12 months, and inform you if we are able to pay back the loan interest free. Once again i am sorry, but this is the options we give you, it is in the best interest of our company as a whole. - josh 0/10. Unfortunately, you are late to the party and your joke isn't original. Maybe next time? Gallows humor may not be original but it does express a very real issue. It may not be original but it is basically what EBANK has done. Refusing to repay depositors or pay interest would normally be considered defaulting on your debt. - Lexander Morinex
Morton Subotnik	Posted - 2009.09.24 22:29:00 - [904] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: josh parker Hello Ebank. My main has a loan through your corp. I have made the decision, although not an easy one. That i will not be paying the loan back for at least the next year, maybe even the next two. Also i must ignore any interest i would be paying you over these next two years. Basically, the company we were working on creating, has how can i say, fallen on hard times, and basically its not in our best interest to honor any former agreements with you as our banker. I know this may be unfortunate for ebamk, however i am sorry. I will get back with you in 6-12 months, and inform you if we are able to pay back the loan interest free. Once again i am sorry, but this is the options we give you, it is in the best interest of our company as a whole. - josh 0/10. Unfortunately, you are late to the party and your joke isn't original. Maybe next time? 0? really 0? Don't sweat it Amarr Citizen, I thought it was pretty funny. Of course, eve is full of spiteful and bitter people who will try to put anyone else down swiftly.
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2009.09.25 01:04:00 - [905] Originally by: Morton Subotnik Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 0/10. Unfortunately, you are late to the party and your joke isn't original. Maybe next time? 0? really 0? Don't sweat it Amarr Citizen, I thought it was pretty funny. Of course, eve is full of spiteful and bitter people who will try to put anyone else down swiftly. Alas, gallows humor can be quite funny, but the guy being hung may not think so. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
JIta Bob	Posted - 2009.09.25 06:03:00 - [906] Wow. I just heard about this mess. I didn't even know there was a player run bank in EVE. The very concept makes my head hurt. How stupid can you people be!!!? You don't give away money to people in EVE unless you plan on never seeing it again. That is Rule One! Do any of you morons have the slightest clue how this game is played? Truly, the depths of your stupidity are both abyssal and crushing. Incidently, I have a few shares of a station in Jita that I'd be willing to sell you . . .
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.25 06:14:00 - [907] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: josh parker Hello Ebank. My main has a loan through your corp. I have made the decision, although not an easy one. That i will not be paying the loan back for at least the next year, maybe even the next two. Also i must ignore any interest i would be paying you over these next two years. Basically, the company we were working on creating, has how can i say, fallen on hard times, and basically its not in our best interest to honor any former agreements with you as our banker. I know this may be unfortunate for ebamk, however i am sorry. I will get back with you in 6-12 months, and inform you if we are able to pay back the loan interest free. Once again i am sorry, but this is the options we give you, it is in the best interest of our company as a whole. - josh 0/10. Unfortunately, you are late to the party and your joke isn't original. Maybe next time? The x/10 dismissal meme. Way to beat unoriginality with a stale cliche :P Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Biggi Raeubertochter Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.09.25 08:16:00 - [908] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Originally by: Ray McCormack And how would we decide who lost out? Easy, you liquidate all assets, then distribute the isk that's remaining to depositors as a percentage of what they are owed. If you wind up with 1T worth of isk and owe depositors 2T, then each person gets half of what they're owed. Its not ideal, but its probably the best course of action for the depositors at this time to preserve as much of their money as possible. they could. but why should they? if i had all those huge amounts of iskies hanging around in my wallet, i wouldnt give it back either. Especially if i could secretly transfer it to my main account.
Biggi Raeubertochter Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.09.25 08:22:00 - [909] Originally by: Miss CutieTrader basicly you give ppl no chooice, it looks like for me basicly like a kidnapping of ppls isk. You could in my eyes made a much bether PR solution. a example: give ppl the chance to vote...between getting % of their investment back right away....said A) 60-70% of their isk back or b) do as u did. if they had ever intended to give anyone their money back they would have probably done it that way. Just forget about your money, people. you will never ever see it again. Now everybody move along, nothing to see here anymore.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.09.25 14:49:00 - [910] Thanks everyone for explaining what gallows humor is, color me enlightened. /sarcasm If it weren't for the fact that I've seen 30+ different variations of that "humor" I might think it was funny. Actually I think I did chuckle at the first 5-10 versions of that joke or the first 3-5 fake IPO/New Bank threads. Obviously some of you missed the humor in my reply while trying to explain to me the humor in his post. <Amarr's signature>
Renarri	Posted - 2009.09.25 18:16:00 - [911] Could you post links to all of your collateral sales and what not. That wyvern contract is tempting.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.09.25 18:27:00 - [912] The Wyvern component auction is currently the only sale going on. The next sales will be for the Titan blueprint copies and **** face's pathetically fitted Navy Raven. Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.09.25 21:16:00 - [913] Originally by: JIta Bob Wow. I just heard about this mess. I didn't even know there was a player run bank in EVE. The very concept makes my head hurt. How stupid can you people be!!!? You don't give away money to people in EVE unless you plan on never seeing it again. That is Rule One! Do any of you morons have the slightest clue how this game is played? Truly, the depths of your stupidity are both abyssal and crushing. Incidently, I have a few shares of a station in Jita that I'd be willing to sell you . . . You're wrong. Rule 1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose and don't invest what you can't afford to lose. Are you just stupid or have you never been exposed to Eve's player-driven market?
Tarinara	Posted - 2009.09.26 14:22:00 - [914] Originally by: Ray McCormack <snip> **** face's pathetically fitted Navy Raven. This catches my eye - since y'all at E-Bank have decided to hang on to my main's 'CNR Fund' - interested in removing about 700mil in account debt for a pathetically fitted CNR?
Orexis Kirhal Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.09.26 19:00:00 - [915] Originally by: Tarinara Originally by: Ray McCormack <snip> **** face's pathetically fitted Navy Raven. This catches my eye - since y'all at E-Bank have decided to hang on to my main's 'CNR Fund' - interested in removing about 700mil in account debt for a pathetically fitted CNR? Right... cause your debt is more important to repay first over everyone else's.
Tarinara	Posted - 2009.09.27 06:43:00 - [916] Originally by: Orexis Kirhal Right... cause your debt is more important to repay first over everyone else's. It wasn't a statement about whether my debt is more important than anyone elses. Looks more like an opportunity for them to unload what is by their own definition, a crappy liability in exchange for wiping out a little over 700mil in liability. But please do continue casting your trolling net about...
Bluebeard Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.09.27 18:50:00 - [917] Originally by: Tarinara Originally by: Orexis Kirhal Right... cause your debt is more important to repay first over everyone else's. It wasn't a statement about whether my debt is more important than anyone elses. Looks more like an opportunity for them to unload what is by their own definition, a crappy liability in exchange for wiping out a little over 700mil in liability. But please do continue casting your trolling net about... The problem is, that currently, your isk is worth about 40% of your Ebank balance. I'll show how this is a problem: a) You have a balance of 700mil and ask Ebank to liquidate your assets now (they won't, but assume they will). You get 280mil back to your wallet. b) You ask Ebank to swap your 700mil balance for a Navy Raven. You now have an asset that you can immediately sell for 670mil on contract. You have now recovered about 96% of your 700mil deposit.. Now do you see why other depositers might be unhappy with this deal ?
Tarinara	Posted - 2009.09.27 20:24:00 - [918] Originally by: Bluebeard The problem is, that currently, your isk is worth about 40% of your Ebank balance.<snip> Actually my ISK right now is worth nothing. Because E-Bank has stolen it. And as for your option 'B' - a base CNR hull is only worth about 600mil yesterday. And one stuffed full of CCC rigs or some of the other combinations I've seen are still worth only 600mil. And with Ray's assesment of the fit, I doubt there are modules on it to fill in the other 100. And as for E-Bank itself: I don't really expect to see 0.01 ISK out of 'em. While I've heard they don't get an 'I WIN' button out of this scam, they will remain Liars, Scammers and Thieves IMO until they pay up on my account. And they can rest assured they'll never see any more of my interwebz spaceshipz money again...
Bluebeard Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.09.27 21:30:00 - [919] Originally by: Tarinara Originally by: Bluebeard The problem is, that currently, your isk is worth about 40% of your Ebank balance.<snip> Actually my ISK right now is worth nothing. Because E-Bank has stolen it. And as for your option 'B' - a base CNR hull is only worth about 600mil yesterday. And one stuffed full of CCC rigs or some of the other combinations I've seen are still worth only 600mil. And with Ray's assesment of the fit, I doubt there are modules on it to fill in the other 100. You are now making your case look even worse, as by valueing your isk at 0, you are also valueing my isk at 0 (hint: I have deposits as well) and you are asking to become a preferential creditor, recovering about 90% of your deposits, while the rest of us get nothing. Scream about Ebank all you want, but try to place yourself ahead of the other depositors and you will feel their wrath. (Make a deal for all of us, on equal terms, or wait patiently in line)
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.27 21:54:00 - [920] I am surprised by the anger that is directed at fellow accountholders that just try to get their isk back (even ebank proclaims the isk they hold hostage belongs to the account holders). People that are trying to get creative in getting their own isk back arent keeping your isk hostage. I would be very pleased if an offer to liquidate at 40% was availeble (or 35 or even 30%). With such an offer availeble I and every other accountholder would suddenly be able to choose and effectively they would be in control of their own isk again. I understand many feel a need to pacify those people that hold your isk hostage in some vain hope to get at last something back from what you entrusted to ebank. But try to keep in mind who is actually harmimng you. I nor anyone else that is complaining has taken a single isk from you.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.09.27 22:09:00 - [921] Originally by: Leneerra I am surprised by the anger that is directed at fellow accountholders that just try to get their isk back (even ebank proclaims the isk they hold hostage belongs to the account holders). .. I understand many feel a need to pacify those people that hold your isk hostage in some vain hope to get at last something back from what you entrusted to ebank. But try to keep in mind who is actually harmimng you. . It's similar to cutting in line. If everyone is expecting the early payout to be around 40%, and you manage to get 90% on your balance, it's only reasonable to see that everyone else is getting a little bit less then. If you're in the party of waiting the year for a 100% return, ebank has that much less capital to start with to reach that goal: again, a losing proposition for you. Granted, I don't think you owe other ebank account holders anything: you got robbed, and you're trying to make the best of that situation. It's a moral grey area. But I see where other's are coming from. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Debonair Dan	Posted - 2009.09.27 22:37:00 - [922] Goodness me, this mess seems to be getting worse. I truly am sorry for everyone who lost money in this. i came incredibly close to depositing money in evebank myself..and i would have too, were it not for the fact i had some incredibly cynical friends. to have trust in someone is not a crime. good luck guys, i hope you get as much of your money back as is possible o/
Far Wanderer Gallente Dominium Brotherhood	Posted - 2009.09.28 05:36:00 - [923] Originally by: JIta Bob Do any of you morons have the slightest clue how this game is played? Silly Troll. While neither myself nor any of my corpmates have ISK tied up in ebank, that hasn't stopped us from learning what we can about their mistakes (and their successes) and applying this information to our own internal corp banking system. Try and fail. Try and succeed. Either way there's useful information to be gleaned from the great ebank experiment.
Dethraedi Gallente Exploratory Technologies	Posted - 2009.09.28 06:46:00 - [924] i lost over 5 bill to this
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.09.28 08:32:00 - [925] Dzil, I see it differently. I do not begrudge anyone getting their isk out of ebank any way they manage. Even if it means my ebank isk become worth even less. You can be very sure I will take any such option if availeble to me (all within the spirit of eve). As you describe it we should envy or be angry at the people that got 100% out just (weeks, days, hours) before the freeze was published. I only hold ebank responsible for my losses, and may finetune this to the indeviduals that caused it and/or those that were originally responsible for preventing just this. should ebank ever publishes information that allows me to do so (wich I do not expect). The ebank BoD have made quite clear that they, and they alone, run ebank. We only got the agreed percentage on our deposits, no extra's should the bank do well. Which is logical as we were not investors. And now that well though of institution they called ebank has has finally published they managed to lose so much isk from the deposits made that they can only cover roughy 40% of our current account values. We never signed on for that risk, we never got compensated for that risk. untill the very day they published the managed to lose 60% of the isk in their accounts they assured us verything was well. Whatever was intended upon the creation of ebank, effectively it became an elaborate ponzi scheme with us left holding the bag. Us being te current account holders and the current ebank BoD, except they may someday actually get compensated for their effort provided they make ebank healty again.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari Groove Inc	Posted - 2009.09.29 17:35:00 - [926] Interesting. Seems I've missed a lot in my nearly a year away. I was aware of what happened with Ric those months ago. Just got a email to restart my account for a day and thought about coming back to see what's changed since it's been so long. Was gonna grab some ISK from my Ebank account and saw about the freeze and problems. What awful timing I have. Guess I have some reading to do, judging by the 30+ pages of this thread. I'm disappointed I have to say because in my time here previous I'd come to trust EBank with a portion of my funds, but I'm not exactly frothing at the mouth in anger over it all. It was always a risk, like with anything, that I wouldn't see that 3.5B again. Will be interesting to see what comes of all this.
Leon Dalmasca Gallente Dot.Inc Phobos Alliance	Posted - 2009.09.30 00:17:00 - [927] Goes to show u that the safest place to keep ur isk is under the seat of ur pops cocpit XD DO NOT click!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.10.01 17:42:00 - [928] Edited by: Le Skunk on 01/10/2009 17:45:51 Originally by: Bluebeard a) You have a balance of 700mil and ask Ebank to liquidate your assets now (they won't, but assume they will). You get 280mil back to your wallet. Where do we vote for option A? On the website? I think most people would take 40%, a lesson learned, and a line drawn under the whole affair. Given that 280 mill, the player could probably make his 700 mill back in a couple of weeks, rather then waiting 2 years for someone else to make it back for him (if they don't **** it up again) SIGNED DISGRUNTLED FROM KANSAS (o)
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.10.01 17:52:00 - [929] Originally by: Le Skunk Where do we vote for option A? On the website? I think most people would take 40%, a lesson learned, and a line drawn under the whole affair. Given that 280 mill, the player could probably make his 700 mill back in a couple of weeks, rather then waiting 2 years for someone else to make it back for him (if they don't **** it up again) EBank is suggesting there will be some type of cash-out option in their next announcement, or at least that's what I've interpreted from various statements.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.10.01 20:32:00 - [930] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Le Skunk Where do we vote for option A? On the website? I think most people would take 40%, a lesson learned, and a line drawn under the whole affair. Given that 280 mill, the player could probably make his 700 mill back in a couple of weeks, rather then waiting 2 years for someone else to make it back for him (if they don't **** it up again) EBank is suggesting there will be some type of cash-out option in their next announcement, or at least that's what I've interpreted from various statements. I think they are going to suggest a mechanism that the market buys out accounts. A look at the balance sheet shows that they have about 780B in assets or around 39% of all accounts balances. If someone will buy accounts they will not do so at asset value and leave it with someone else to earn money. All offers will probably be at a discount to asset value (under 39%), or you could just buy assets off the market at face value and not have any security issues. IMO best case scenario is about 30% on account balance maximum, unless there is a major change in EBANK's balance sheet. Either way expect market offers to be at least 20% under current asset value.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.02 15:13:00 - [931] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Le Skunk Where do we vote for option A? On the website? I think most people would take 40%, a lesson learned, and a line drawn under the whole affair. Given that 280 mill, the player could probably make his 700 mill back in a couple of weeks, rather then waiting 2 years for someone else to make it back for him (if they don't **** it up again) EBank is suggesting there will be some type of cash-out option in their next announcement, or at least that's what I've interpreted from various statements. I think they are going to suggest a mechanism that the market buys out accounts. A look at the balance sheet shows that they have about 780B in assets or around 39% of all accounts balances. If someone will buy accounts they will not do so at asset value and leave it with someone else to earn money. All offers will probably be at a discount to asset value (under 39%), or you could just buy assets off the market at face value and not have any security issues. IMO best case scenario is about 30% on account balance maximum, unless there is a major change in EBANK's balance sheet. Either way expect market offers to be at least 20% under current asset value. Pricing should be a function of risk (whatever the market determines that to be), with estimates of time to recover, and some speculation. Assets on a liquid market (securities for example) are rarely priced at the current valuation but instead at future valuations. This is evident via the P/E ratio on some stocks being several multiples of 10 over their actual underlying fundamental value. Google for example has a P/E ratio of 33. Ultimately demand for liquidity coupled with risk appetite will likely be the big factors. My humble opinion of course.
cosmoray Cosmoray Construction	Posted - 2009.10.02 16:53:00 - [932] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Le Skunk Where do we vote for option A? On the website? I think most people would take 40%, a lesson learned, and a line drawn under the whole affair. Given that 280 mill, the player could probably make his 700 mill back in a couple of weeks, rather then waiting 2 years for someone else to make it back for him (if they don't **** it up again) EBank is suggesting there will be some type of cash-out option in their next announcement, or at least that's what I've interpreted from various statements. I think they are going to suggest a mechanism that the market buys out accounts. A look at the balance sheet shows that they have about 780B in assets or around 39% of all accounts balances. If someone will buy accounts they will not do so at asset value and leave it with someone else to earn money. All offers will probably be at a discount to asset value (under 39%), or you could just buy assets off the market at face value and not have any security issues. IMO best case scenario is about 30% on account balance maximum, unless there is a major change in EBANK's balance sheet. Either way expect market offers to be at least 20% under current asset value. Pricing should be a function of risk (whatever the market determines that to be), with estimates of time to recover, and some speculation. Assets on a liquid market (securities for example) are rarely priced at the current valuation but instead at future valuations. This is evident via the P/E ratio on some stocks being several multiples of 10 over their actual underlying fundamental value. Google for example has a P/E ratio of 33. Ultimately demand for liquidity coupled with risk appetite will likely be the big factors. My humble opinion of course. Google is a unique business in RL like others which can't easily be copied. In Eve when buying out a business you have the option of buying the equivalent assets and using them yourself. Because of this fact most businesses in Eve are worth close to their NAV, with some IPO's gaining more value due to the trust factor. If EBANK holds (lets say) 800B in assets, I would not pay more than 800B for those assets because I can buy them from the market or in the case of loans start my own shop. Secondly if EBANK is holding onto that money for (at the moment) an unknown amount of time there is a great deal of risk in that investment. I know I would trust myself with my own cash with a good chance to make a 250% return over a year (or whatever timeframe), but do I trust other people to do so. This is the increased risk factor fby speculating in EBANK as an investment. Due to the above two statements that assets in Eve only hold their market value and a large risk associated investing in EBANK at present it is unlikely that people will offer money equivalent to current assets or a higher amount. SO if the assets when EBANK reports back this month the assets are worth 800B (guess?) that would be 40% of account balances, I think I would offer account holders some amount less than this value to make a return. If I needed to pay 40% I would just buy the assets elsewhere and earn money with them
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.02 19:30:00 - [933] Originally by: cosmoray I think they are going to suggest a mechanism that the market buys out accounts. A look at the balance sheet shows that they have about 780B in assets or around 39% of all accounts balances. If someone will buy accounts they will not do so at asset value and leave it with someone else to earn money. All offers will probably be at a discount to asset value (under 39%), or you could just buy assets off the market at face value and not have any security issues. IMO best case scenario is about 30% on account balance maximum, unless there is a major change in EBANK's balance sheet. Either way expect market offers to be at least 20% under current asset value. Pricing should be a function of risk (whatever the market determines that to be), with estimates of time to recover, and some speculation. Assets on a liquid market (securities for example) are rarely priced at the current valuation but instead at future valuations. This is evident via the P/E ratio on some stocks being several multiples of 10 over their actual underlying fundamental value. Google for example has a P/E ratio of 33. Ultimately demand for liquidity coupled with risk appetite will likely be the big factors. My humble opinion of course. Google is a unique business in RL like others which can't easily be copied. In Eve when buying out a business you have the option of buying the equivalent assets and using them yourself. Because of this fact most businesses in Eve are worth close to their NAV, with some IPO's gaining more value due to the trust factor. If EBANK holds (lets say) 800B in assets, I would not pay more than 800B for those assets because I can buy them from the market or in the case of loans start my own shop. Secondly if EBANK is holding onto that money for (at the moment) an unknown amount of time there is a great deal of risk in that investment. I know I would trust myself with my own cash with a good chance to make a 250% return over a year (or whatever timeframe), but do I trust other people to do so. This is the increased risk factor fby speculating in EBANK as an investment. Due to the above two statements that assets in Eve only hold their market value and a large risk associated investing in EBANK at present it is unlikely that people will offer money equivalent to current assets or a higher amount. SO if the assets when EBANK reports back this month the assets are worth 800B (guess?) that would be 40% of account balances, I think I would offer account holders some amount less than this value to make a return. If I needed to pay 40% I would just buy the assets elsewhere and earn money with them I was just attempting to explain how the prices will probably be determined (things people think about), I think you followed that up with an excellently worded opinion. You probably have quite a bit of company as well due to the huge question mark around "How much time will it take?" I've seen alot of skepticism of a "quick" turn around. I'm no longer in position to speak about timing here and I'll refrain from commenting on that specifically.
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2009.10.03 00:24:00 - [934] A thought hit me after reading Hexxx's post about pricing future valuation. Future valuation refers to the price the stock/security can be expected to be sold for when sold to other investors. That is, in the future, what will other investors think of this security? Future likely sentiment, discounted to present value, probably puts the value of EBANK accounts closer to 5 - 10% of balance. Even if the future value of the account is considered its current balance, discount it by the 10%/month most traders can grow their funds, and assume 16 months for EBank to open up, we're talking a value of 20% of current balance. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
nemmes Celestial Ascension	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:40:00 - [935] Looking forward to this announcement. If it appears today "Take me up in the arms of fate, with the strength of conviction and the hope of dreams"
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:44:00 - [936] Oh god. this thread should be left to die. let the man start a new one.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:54:00 - [937] Originally by: nemmes Looking forward to this announcement. If it appears today hmmm...have they sold the titan BPCs yet?
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.10.15 12:39:00 - [938] Originally by: Drab Cane A thought hit me after reading Hexxx's post about pricing future valuation. Future valuation refers to the price the stock/security can be expected to be sold for when sold to other investors. That is, in the future, what will other investors think of this security? Future likely sentiment, discounted to present value, probably puts the value of EBANK accounts closer to 5 - 10% of balance. Even if the future value of the account is considered its current balance, discount it by the 10%/month most traders can grow their funds, and assume 16 months for EBank to open up, we're talking a value of 20% of current balance. I did some math on this a while back. The 10%/month (interest rate), 16 months (maturity time) and 20% (estimated current value) are all variables: if you set any two you can arrive at the third. If you go with 16 months and 10.6% interest/month, a 20% on the current balance is right on the money. Personally however, given recent learnings about uncollateralized loans to the tune of 100s of billions (and their tendency to bring about the worst in people), I couldn't invest in this no matter what the interest rate without a tighter control of the security to include 3rd party collateralization of the loan. I realize existing ebank clients may not have that option, and are in little control to negotiate for it. However, something ebank may want to consider in light of it's doing best for all its clients: If instead of 10.6% interest, it could acquire that "loan" based on market supply/demand at an interest rate of 3% over 16 months, early buyout customers would get 62% of their investment back today. The catch is What security can you provide to bring the trust level back to 3%? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Emil Worrisu	Posted - 2009.10.22 17:23:00 - [939] So they fixed it yet? Is it working like normal again?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.22 17:34:00 - [940] Originally by: Emil Worrisu So they fixed it yet? Is it working like normal again? UPDATE HERE
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.10.22 18:13:00 - [941] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Drab Cane A thought hit me after reading Hexxx's post about pricing future valuation. Future valuation refers to the price the stock/security can be expected to be sold for when sold to other investors. That is, in the future, what will other investors think of this security? Future likely sentiment, discounted to present value, probably puts the value of EBANK accounts closer to 5 - 10% of balance. Even if the future value of the account is considered its current balance, discount it by the 10%/month most traders can grow their funds, and assume 16 months for EBank to open up, we're talking a value of 20% of current balance. I did some math on this a while back. The 10%/month (interest rate), 16 months (maturity time) and 20% (estimated current value) are all variables: if you set any two you can arrive at the third. If you go with 16 months and 10.6% interest/month, a 20% on the current balance is right on the money. Personally however, given recent learnings about uncollateralized loans to the tune of 100s of billions (and their tendency to bring about the worst in people), I couldn't invest in this no matter what the interest rate without a tighter control of the security to include 3rd party collateralization of the loan. I realize existing ebank clients may not have that option, and are in little control to negotiate for it. However, something ebank may want to consider in light of it's doing best for all its clients: If instead of 10.6% interest, it could acquire that "loan" based on market supply/demand at an interest rate of 3% over 16 months, early buyout customers would get 62% of their investment back today. The catch is What security can you provide to bring the trust level back to 3%? I think the people offering 20% were expecting that Ebank would liquidate at some point in the near future or they would offer a buyout, and that they would get something like 40-60% for the deposits, doubling or tripling their investment over a shorter time-frame. I don't think they were basing their offers on the present value of a future 100% payout (with or without interest) simply because there are too many unknowns. Much easier to estimate the current liquidation value and figure out what the chances are that depositors will get that returned to them. Anyway, we should have a better idea in a week.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.23 02:58:00 - [942] With the Titan BPC sales only netting 10B each EBANK is in a serious hole. Two Titans sold for 10B while the others are unsold. In EBANKS calculations they valued Titan BPC's at 18B each. 10 BPC's per year (x18B) = 180B Per month = 15B Current return on Titan BPC's = 8.5B the Titan BPC program was meant to be the big cash cow (it may be again in the future). The banks total earnings per month are currently running around 15B instead of the optimistic 22B. This means the payback time is going to be much longer. Chances of 100% payout I put at almost zero. Bank might just get to 50% capital base after the 1 year timescale mentioned. I can't see how the new plan will be much more optimistic.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.10.23 03:48:00 - [943] I don't think the poor BPC sales change much. There's still going to be people who want EBank to attempt to get their money back, though maybe less people now, so the BoD will continue to keep this going. The real issue with the next announcement is the quality of the buyout option for those who want out. The BPC sales may affect the buyout price, but I'm far more concerned with the proposed mechanism(s) of the buyout option.
Kim McCormack Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.23 06:17:00 - [944] Originally by: cosmoray In EBANKS calculations they valued Titan BPC's at 18B each. Did we? Originally by: cosmoray This means the payback time is going to be much longer. Then so be it. Originally by: cosmoray Chances of 100% payout I put at almost zero. I put it at 100%. Originally by: cosmoray I can't see how the new plan will be much more optimistic. Optimism is in the eye of the beholder.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.23 08:48:00 - [945] The payout can never be 100% because of inflation. No matter what, you will still owe interest, and that is a fact.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.10.23 08:56:00 - [946] Originally by: Ji Sama The payout can never be 100% because of inflation. No matter what, you will still owe interest, and that is a fact. Quote: He who is least likely to make declarative statements is least likely to be called a fool in retrospect. It's only fairly recently that minor inflation started taking place on a macro-scale. I'd argue that Dominion will cause deflation in the long run as the T2 baskets will pull down the indicies. Since EBANK started 2 years ago, we have experienced major deflation. Deflation is a feature of most MMO economies. Using this logic, we ought to pay you out less, in fact.
Kim McCormack Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.23 08:59:00 - [947] Originally by: Ji Sama The payout can never be 100% because of inflation. No matter what, you will still owe interest, and that is a fact. I'd have believed you if you'd said 'opportunity cost'. But that's not my problem, it's the depositors. They shouldn't invest in a bank the next time unless they know what is going on inside.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.23 09:07:00 - [948] Simply not true, more isk is injected into the game, thats a fact. More isk = inflation Less isk = deflation Ill explain it more simple; if we the players get more and more ISK and more and more stuff, the value of the ISK and the Stuff inflates. If we where to get less ISK and Less stuff, the price would deflate. And that doesnt even adress the fact, that you lockdown peoples ISK for several years, and only paying back the principal. Now dont get me wrong, i support this action. I see it as the only RIGHT thing to do. But making it sound like you are returning all peoples isk is just a lie. And lying is wrong, we all know that.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.10.23 09:15:00 - [949] Quote: More isk = inflation More ISK = Monetary inflation, an increase in the money supply. Quote: Less isk = deflation Less ISK = Monetary deflation, a decrease in the money supply. Correlation does not imply causation. While the Austrian school would argue that Monetary Inflation = Price Inflation, there's plenty of proof that this holds absolutely no truth in EVE's economy. You should know that. Let me once again point you to the current assumption that Dominion will cause deflation in the long run, as a result of the incoming T2 price nerf. My guess is that it will make up for the last quarter-ish worth of light inflation in the longer run(6-8 months)
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.23 09:31:00 - [950] Edited by: Ji Sama on 23/10/2009 09:33:26 Well im with the austrian school then :D I am seing a price increase on everything*, that means we are getting more isk. Data supports this! Somethings are dropping in price because of speculation and or nerfs...
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.10.23 09:33:00 - [951] Originally by: Ji Sama Well im with the austrian school then :D I am seing a price increase on everything, that means we are getting more isk. Data supports this! We are always getting more ISK by far. Even in periods of price deflation. But as you saw on the price level graph at fanfest(And in QEN), we have had a very long time of deflation. It's only very recently that the indices are starting to increase. This is independent of the always increasing money supply.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.23 09:53:00 - [952] the deflation we saw explained at fanfest was a curve that followed the expansions, therefore you are also correct when you say prices will go up again around dec 1.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.10.23 10:58:00 - [953] Originally by: Ji Sama the deflation we saw explained at fanfest was a curve that followed the expansions, therefore you are also correct when you say prices will go up again around dec 1. The graph you are explaining is the business cycle graph. That's elementary economics. Recall the graph showing the huge deflation in the economy as a result of invention. Eyjo predicted that we would have have a period of light deflation in early 2009, which we have seen. That doesn't make up for the huge deflation we have seen over the past 2 years. Overall, since EBANK started, we have experienced massive deflation. It's only the last 6 months we have seen any hint of inflation really. It's bound to spike around Dominion after which we will see a good amount of deflation.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.10.23 13:25:00 - [954] Eve Online Economics Lesson in 4000 characters or less: Real World: Limited amount of stuff and relatively limited amount of money. Supply of money causes inflation or deflation. Examples: 1) Discovery of America brought huge supplies of gold to Europe and caused the relative value of gold to decline, prices of everything else went up, thus inflation. 2) Government prints lots of money to pay debts, value of dollar goes down, prices of stuff goes up, inflation. Eve Online: Unlimited amount of stuff and unlimited amount of isk. Both are nothing more than entries in a computer database. They are both created by the game to reward players and destroyed by the game to punish or penalize them. Yes, there is an economy in Eve. There is a well documented business cycle where people buy more stuff around expansions and tend to save their money between expansions, so they can buy more stuff at the next expansion. Prices of stuff also tend to fluctuate for various reasons, so players need to be thinking about things like do I buy stuff now or later, should I buy stuff now to sell later, should I keep my money in my wallet and not buy anything, should I sell some stuff and buy different stuff, etc. That is all well and good and part of what makes this a fun game for folks like us. But Eve Online is just a computer game. In other words, there is more to life than just Eve. When you talk about the future value of isk, it isn't just about how many battleships you can buy with it down the road, because the value of a battleship in an internet space game one year ago is not the value of a battleship one year from now. It's not just because people who used to fly battleships will be flying cap ships, or they will be flying fully pimped out battleships. It's because the amount of isk and stuff in the hands of active players is always increasing. The only ingame items that have any meaningful value in the outside world are PLEX and GTCs. I used to buy 90-day GTCs for 400M, now I can buy 30-day PLEX for 275M. That implies that the real-world value of isk has fallen by half in the intervening time. Yes, PLEX are subject to speculation and the business cycle. PLEX prices are probably depressed because of the expected influx of PLEX after Dominion, and will resume the upward trend after that. I could try to work out the complex interrelationship between the Eve business cycle and PLEX prices, but I will leave that to the reader. TL;DR-When talking about the value of isk, don't compare it to the bits and bytes of ingame stuff, but to real-world valued PLEX.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.23 13:42:00 - [955] Originally by: Claire Voyant 1) Discovery of America brought huge supplies of gold to Europe and caused the relative value of gold to decline, prices of everything else went up, thus inflation. Silver, but otherwise correct on your points.
Black Dronza Globe Trotter Inc The Matari Consortium	Posted - 2009.10.25 11:41:00 - [956] Hi EBank officials. Rather than read through a 32 page post please can you give an update on the recovery plan. How is it going against forecast? Many thanks -bd- Always expect the unexpected and you will never be suprised.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.25 19:12:00 - [957] Originally by: Black Dronza Hi EBank officials. Rather than read through a 32 page post please can you give an update on the recovery plan. How is it going against forecast? Many thanks -bd- They wont tell you this, but they stole all your isk. You get nothing, sir. Good day.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.10.25 23:46:00 - [958] Originally by: Black Dronza Hi EBank officials. Rather than read through a 32 page post please can you give an update on the recovery plan. How is it going against forecast? Many thanks -bd- I mean, the title pretty much broadcasts their intended date of releasing information. I'm not sure why they didn't just set the expectation of Nov 1st, but meh. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.26 00:45:00 - [959] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Black Dronza Hi EBank officials. Rather than read through a 32 page post please can you give an update on the recovery plan. How is it going against forecast? Many thanks -bd- They wont tell you this, but they stole all your isk. You get nothing, sir. Good day. With help from Goons. You forgot that part. All things shall be revealed in good time. never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
Kong iverz Gallente Atomic Reaction Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.10.26 10:01:00 - [960] Im just wondering on how Ebank are doing... Will you guys recover? I know its not easy... and i understand if you never will. Always sad to loose isk, but never take the isk out of the wallet if u cant afford to loose it... thats eve rule nr 1. Im basically just looking for some info on when ebank will unfreeze. Would also be nice to get out some isk :P Kai Onslot can kill two stones with one bird
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.26 13:47:00 - [961] Originally by: Tesal Originally by: Kalrand They wont tell you this, but they stole all your isk. You get nothing, sir. Good day. With help from Goons. You forgot that part. All things shall be revealed in good time. Don't get me wrong, The Mittani has his fingers in a lot of people's business, but this one was all done by the ebank staff alone.
Amarr Citizen 155 Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2009.10.26 14:29:00 - [962] Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 26/10/2009 14:30:09 Originally by: Kalrand Don't get me wrong, The Mittani has his fingers in a lot of people's business, but this one was all done by the ebank staff alone. Hey Ray look, they don't suspect a thing.....looks like our plan is working and the goons are off the hook. Edit: fixed quote Titan BPC Auction Thread
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.01 00:37:00 - [963] I believe it's November 1st, Evetime. Soooo.....
Corporate Thief Caldari Code Triage	Posted - 2009.11.01 01:11:00 - [964] Originally by: Johnny Ringo I believe it's November 1st, Evetime. Soooo..... That means he has another 22-23 hours before he needs to post --- Please re-size your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist Who wants to make me a Sig? Mail me in-game! \O/
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.01 07:54:00 - [965] Players in Eve colonies across the galaxy wait patiently knowing their doom or salvation will be revealed in the next few hours. "Has my investment been lost?", wonders the budding trader anticipating the worst while praying for a miracle. "Will my funds be available before the end of this decade?" "Are my hopes and dreams for Dominion dashed?" What the future holds lays in the hands of a few. Many of whom have (arguably) failed thus far.I only started playing after the ebank dramas started so am not invested however I wait in anticipation, fascinated and in full expectation of the new 60 page forum thread guaranteed to be fueled by drama, misinformation and trolling. Oh how wonderful Eve Online truly is.
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.01 15:18:00 - [966] Originally by: Johnny Ringo I believe it's November 1st, Evetime. Soooo..... Considering that not even Ray has posted in quite a while and is instead using an alt (Kim McCormack) don't get to excited. I think a lot of people would still end up respecting the staff at EBank if they just came clean and admitted it was a ponzi scheme from the start and their ISK is gone. Stop getting peoples hopes up!!!
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.02 02:12:00 - [967] Not trying to be a tard but deadline has been reached
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.02 02:46:00 - [968] Ray wanted me to pass on a message to concerned individuals. /finger Just kidding. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.02 02:55:00 - [969] Amarr, maybe he could pass on a message that involves a new deadline or even a "Hey, currently busy with real life, should have the information up in the next 24 hours" etc. I cant imagine what you could possibly have prepared and not have ready when well over a month has been provided to do so. Lets hope its more than a 2 paragraph spiel advising the same as the first post.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.02 02:56:00 - [970] Originally by: Katiana Swan Amarr, maybe he could pass on a message that involves a new deadline or even a "Hey, currently busy with real life, should have the information up in the next 24 hours" etc. I cant imagine what you could possibly have prepared and not have ready when well over a month has been provided to do so. Lets hope its more than a 2 paragraph spiel advising the same as the first post. /me quickly starts adding to the 2 paragraphs we were getting ready to post. j/k Actually I've been out with RL stuff so I haven't had much chance to talk to him. I just wanted to **** off the trolls a bit. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.02 03:00:00 - [971] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Actually I've been out with RL stuff so I haven't had much chance to talk to him. I just wanted to **** off the trolls a bit. oh ok sorry, I was under the impression you worked for ebank. /me waits (im)patiently
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.11.02 03:11:00 - [972] Don't tell me I put on my fancy lynchin pants fer nuthin
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:01:00 - [973] Ray, in the absence of an update, if you were a dead horse, what size stick would you prefer to be beaten with? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2009.11.02 05:06:00 - [974] he likes aluminum baseball bats... ---------------------- My Blog
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:15:00 - [975] Originally by: Omber Zombie he likes aluminum baseball bats... Well maybe I can lend you the one EBANK shoved up my a$$.
EBANK Amarr155	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:02:00 - [976] On behalf of everyone at EBANK I would like to apologize for the delay in getting our next announcement out to you. We're finalising some last minute issues that arose due to the policy changes we'll be announcing. Once they are finalised the post will be made. So expect it this weekend if not sooner. Again we apologize for the delay but it was unavoidable.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:07:00 - [977] Originally by: EBANK Amarr155 On behalf of everyone at EBANK I would like to apologize for the delay in getting our next announcement out to you. We're finalising some last minute issues that arose due to the policy changes we'll be announcing. Once they are finalised the post will be made. So expect it this weekend if not sooner. Again we apologize for the delay but it was unavoidable. BTW, that is me for all the slower people in the room. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.02 20:15:00 - [978] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: EBANK Amarr155 On behalf of everyone at EBANK I would like to apologize for the delay in getting our next announcement out to you. We're finalising some last minute issues that arose due to the policy changes we'll be announcing. Once they are finalised the post will be made. So expect it this weekend if not sooner. Again we apologize for the delay but it was unavoidable. BTW, that is me for all the slower people in the room. Par for the course to call people slow while extending your own deadlines, no? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.02 20:44:00 - [979] Dear Ebank customers, We're busy making a few nice spreadsheets that show the current pile of isk that is left after the last few board members ran off with whatever they could grab. Instead of giving it back to you, we plan on giving you continuously updated reports on what we spend your money on over the next few months. We may give you some back in a year or two, but don't hold your breath. All the best, Ebank
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.02 21:12:00 - [980] Originally by: Dzil Par for the course to call people slow while extending your own deadlines, no? I'd have to disagree with you for a couple of reasons: 1. Not my deadline. I didn't provide any input as far as a deadline is concerned, I'm too busy playing with all my new toys to care about deadlines. /sarcasm 2. Slow as in people that wouldn't make the connection not slow as it relates to speed or lack thereof....but I see what you tried to do there. 3. I'm out way more isk than most of you so please forgive me if your cries fall on deaf ears. I've gotta get back to work making isk back that I wasn't responsible for losing so forgive the shortness of this post (as it relates to length and not attitude or tone). Titan BPC Auction Thread
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:04:00 - [981] Originally by: EBANK Amarr155 On behalf of everyone at EBANK I would like to apologize for the delay in getting our next announcement out to you. We're finalising some last minute issues that arose due to the policy changes we'll be announcing. Once they are finalised the post will be made. So expect it this weekend if not sooner. Again we apologize for the delay but it was unavoidable. ^^Generic PR reply #42
Derek Chambers Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:08:00 - [982] I'm laughing at everyone who put their isk in the hands of internet strangers and expected it to be taken care of. wow.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:24:00 - [983] Originally by: Derek Chambers I'm laughing at everyone who put their isk in the hands of internet strangers and expected it to be taken care of. wow. I'm laughing at people who take their internet monies so seriously that they cannot even trust someone from the internets with it.
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:26:00 - [984] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Dzil Par for the course to call people slow while extending your own deadlines, no? I'd have to disagree with you for a couple of reasons: 1. Not my deadline. I didn't provide any input as far as a deadline is concerned, I'm too busy playing with all my new toys to care about deadlines. /sarcasm 2. Slow as in people that wouldn't make the connection not slow as it relates to speed or lack thereof....but I see what you tried to do there. 3. I'm out way more isk than most of you so please forgive me if your cries fall on deaf ears. I've gotta get back to work making isk back that I wasn't responsible for losing so forgive the shortness of this post (as it relates to length and not attitude or tone). Wow you really take the phrase "customer relations" down to a level that is consistent with the performance of the bank.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.03 00:30:00 - [985] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Dzil Par for the course to call people slow while extending your own deadlines, no? I'd have to disagree with you for a couple of reasons: 1. Not my deadline. I didn't provide any input as far as a deadline is concerned, I'm too busy playing with all my new toys to care about deadlines. /sarcasm 2. Slow as in people that wouldn't make the connection not slow as it relates to speed or lack thereof....but I see what you tried to do there. 3. I'm out way more isk than most of you so please forgive me if your cries fall on deaf ears. I've gotta get back to work making isk back that I wasn't responsible for losing so forgive the shortness of this post (as it relates to length and not attitude or tone). Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:50:00 - [986] hmmmm i asked for a loan of 1,3bill n it will be return quickly but then i dun seem to recieve any answer from eve bank ! so have eve bank shut down n run away with the money or something ? I just need to have the 1.3 bill to pay off my lottery so i can actually run another one straight away! n generate the income ! Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Ashelia Ragnarok	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:03:00 - [987] Originally by: FlameWarrior hmmmm i asked for a loan of 1,3bill n it will be return quickly but then i dun seem to recieve any answer from eve bank ! so have eve bank shut down n run away with the money or something ? I just need to have the 1.3 bill to pay off my lottery so i can actually run another one straight away! n generate the income ! purhaps ur lack of eenglish skeels and ! randum punchtuashion cuzed tem to turn u down ??
RothimusPrime	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:51:00 - [988] Originally by: Ashelia Ragnarok Originally by: FlameWarrior hmmmm i asked for a loan of 1,3bill n it will be return quickly but then i dun seem to recieve any answer from eve bank ! so have eve bank shut down n run away with the money or something ? I just need to have the 1.3 bill to pay off my lottery so i can actually run another one straight away! n generate the income ! purhaps ur lack of eenglish skeels and ! randum punchtuashion cuzed tem to turn u down ?? OMG! Funniest thing I've read in a while! Bravo sir!
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:54:00 - [989] Originally by: Solisk Originally by: Derek Chambers I'm laughing at everyone who put their isk in the hands of internet strangers and expected it to be taken care of. wow. I'm laughing at people who take their internet monies so seriously that they cannot even trust someone from the internets with it. I'm laughing with Solisk Please re-size your signature to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes.Applebabe
Sciencegeek deathdealer	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:06:00 - [990] Edited by: Sciencegeek deathdealer on 06/11/2009 00:06:20 Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Originally by: Solisk Originally by: Derek Chambers I'm laughing at everyone who put their isk in the hands of internet strangers and expected it to be taken care of. wow. I'm laughing at people who take their internet monies so seriously that they cannot even trust someone from the internets with it. I'm laughing with Solisk I'm just laughing.
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.06 11:43:00 - [991] Originally by: EBANK Amarr155 On behalf of everyone at EBANK I would like to apologize for the delay in getting our next announcement out to you. We're finalising some last minute issues that arose due to the policy changes we'll be announcing. Once they are finalised the post will be made. So expect it this weekend if not sooner. Again we apologize for the delay but it was unavoidable. Translation: We at EBANK are arguing over how many "HAs" should be included in "BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
Rico Minali Gallente Sons Of 0din Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.06 11:47:00 - [992] I would like all my isk, that EBank have decided to keep, to be given to charity, since, I stole most of it from passing strangers in lowsec, I think its only fair it should go to the widows and orphans of all the pilots I have killed and robbed over the past 2 years of piracy. Rico. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.06 12:57:00 - [993] Originally by: Rico Minali I would like all my isk, that EBank have decided to keep, to be given to charity, since, I stole most of it from passing strangers in lowsec, I think its only fair it should go to the widows and orphans of all the pilots I have killed and robbed over the past 2 years of piracy. Rico. By charity you mean the poorest guy in EVE, right? Cuz I think Ray's running about -1 trillion atm. That's probably rock bottom. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:07:00 - [994] Edited by: FlameWarrior on 06/11/2009 14:10:37 hey man this is not even funny!! i m a lottery guy! n people that joined n played know i m a legit !! n it's the yearly lottery so i need to pay off my pervious one in order to run another one !! so please eve bank get in contact with me asap so i can get this sort out Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:47:00 - [995] Originally by: FlameWarrior Edited by: FlameWarrior on 06/11/2009 14:10:37 hey man this is not even funny!! i m a lottery guy! n people that joined n played know i m a legit !! n it's the yearly lottery so i need to pay off my pervious one in order to run another one !! so please eve bank get in contact with me asap so i can get this sort out Your lottery could now be for your ebank claim.
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:24:00 - [996] wht u mean by ebank claim ?? i just need to get the 1.3bill so i can get it going, as they freezed my 1.3bil in there =( Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:39:00 - [997] Originally by: FlameWarrior wht u mean by ebank claim ?? i just need to get the 1.3bill so i can get it going, as they freezed my 1.3bil in there =( I'll give you 260M for your 1.3B ISK in EBANK. That is 20% of account value.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:45:00 - [998] Originally by: cosmoray I'll give you 260M for your 1.3B ISK in EBANK. That is 20% of account value. I'll give you 261 mill for it, just to keep Cosmo away from it! Titan BPC Auction Thread
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:48:00 - [999] Originally by: FlameWarrior wht u mean by ebank claim ?? i just need to get the 1.3bill so i can get it going, as they freezed my 1.3bil in there =( They took your money. It isn't coming back. But "someone" is "working" on a way to let you "trade" your ebank isk. Right now it looks like people are willing to pay about 20% of the face. Or 260 Million in your case.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.06 17:01:00 - [1000] Originally by: Tiberizzle Can we go ahead and get a [SCAM] tag in the thread title? Either that or add 2010 to the dates for clarity.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:15:00 - [1001] Linkage Selling a Titan BPO? Perhaps they are just going to do the right thing and liquidate. Hungover and bored, watching bad movies, stirring up MD trouble.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:23:00 - [1002] Based on purchases that they have been buying from me, I would say they are free'ing up isk for decent investments with new patch. That is just a guess though, may have nothing to do with ebank just one of the people in ebank. Anyway for now I will give 30% for any isk you have in ebank, and I have a bit of isk set aside for this. Contact ingame via eve mail let me know how much you have. Also a confirmation from Ebank that my account is still good prior to doing this would be nice 2 ;)
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.07 21:59:00 - [1003] Originally by: SetrakDark Linkage Selling a Titan BPO? Perhaps they are just going to do the right thing and liquidate. Hungover and bored, watching bad movies, stirring up MD trouble. That was more testing the waters, it appears the waters are still. I guess people are waiting on the next patch to see what happens. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Lady Centrina	Posted - 2009.11.07 23:46:00 - [1004] Originally by: Proton Power Based on purchases that they have been buying from me, I would say they are free'ing up isk for decent investments with new patch. That is just a guess though, may have nothing to do with ebank just one of the people in ebank. Anyway for now I will give 30% for any isk you have in ebank, and I have a bit of isk set aside for this. Contact ingame via eve mail let me know how much you have. Also a confirmation from Ebank that my account is still good prior to doing this would be nice 2 ;) No one else wanted to jump on this? Either EBANK or a person with lots of isk and a strong connection to EBANK just happens to be buying (i.e. laundering isk) through favored people so that when it comes time to report the bank status the general public is still f*cked but people who were in on the take and friends of Ricdic will still come out ahead.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 00:43:00 - [1005] Originally by: Lady Centrina Originally by: Proton Power Based on purchases that they have been buying from me, I would say they are free'ing up isk for decent investments with new patch. That is just a guess though, may have nothing to do with ebank just one of the people in ebank. Anyway for now I will give 30% for any isk you have in ebank, and I have a bit of isk set aside for this. Contact ingame via eve mail let me know how much you have. Also a confirmation from Ebank that my account is still good prior to doing this would be nice 2 ;) No one else wanted to jump on this? Either EBANK or a person with lots of isk and a strong connection to EBANK just happens to be buying (i.e. laundering isk) through favored people so that when it comes time to report the bank status the general public is still f*cked but people who were in on the take and friends of Ricdic will still come out ahead. You may want to do some research prior to coming up with conspiracy theories, I can't spell never could. Myself and Ebank actually have less in common that most its customers. I dont' even know if my accounts are still active in Ebank because of brining out some facts that they didnt want released and bringing out the other facts much earlier than they cared for. But anyway please keep going I need a good laugh, its been a bad day.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.08 02:43:00 - [1006] Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 08/11/2009 02:44:10 Originally by: Proton Power You may want to do some research prior to coming up with conspiracy theories, I can't spell never could. Myself and Ebank actually have less in common that most its customers. I dont' even know if my accounts are still active in Ebank because of brining out some facts that they didnt want released and bringing out the other facts much earlier than they cared for. But anyway please keep going I need a good laugh, its been a bad day. Regardless of the "night in shining armor" complex you have, there's no reason your accounts should have changed any since the last time you logged into them. I'd be more than happy to verify that for you in private via in-game mail or using our support system at the EBANK website. To the idiot crying conspiracy, idiot. If I wanted to buy accounts up I would just do it, there'd be no need to hide behind any veil because I could give a rat's ass what most of you think. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 03:53:00 - [1007] Edited by: Phoebe Halliwel on 08/11/2009 03:54:42 Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 08/11/2009 02:44:10 Originally by: Proton Power You may want to do some research prior to coming up with conspiracy theories, I can't spell never could. Myself and Ebank actually have less in common that most its customers. I dont' even know if my accounts are still active in Ebank because of brining out some facts that they didnt want released and bringing out the other facts much earlier than they cared for. But anyway please keep going I need a good laugh, its been a bad day. Regardless of the "night in shining armor" complex you have, there's no reason your accounts should have changed any since the last time you logged into them. I'd be more than happy to verify that for you in private via in-game mail or using our support system at the EBANK website. To the idiot crying conspiracy, idiot. If I wanted to buy accounts up I would just do it, there'd be no need to hide behind any veil because I could give a rat's ass what most of you think. Ray McCormack is active in game, I can see this from market transactions for 07/11/09. Why is he leaving you, the least diplomatic of Ebank spokespersons to make excuses? Why is it whenever PP/Evalf posts the remaining Ebank staff turn nasty. Shar made more abrasive remarks to Hexx in his resignment post, but... no comment from Ebank on those. Feel like sharing? edit: oops
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:01:00 - [1008] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Edited by: Phoebe Halliwel on 08/11/2009 03:54:42 Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 08/11/2009 02:44:10 Originally by: Proton Power You may want to do some research prior to coming up with conspiracy theories, I can't spell never could. Myself and Ebank actually have less in common that most its customers. I dont' even know if my accounts are still active in Ebank because of brining out some facts that they didnt want released and bringing out the other facts much earlier than they cared for. But anyway please keep going I need a good laugh, its been a bad day. Regardless of the "night in shining armor" complex you have, there's no reason your accounts should have changed any since the last time you logged into them. I'd be more than happy to verify that for you in private via in-game mail or using our support system at the EBANK website. To the idiot crying conspiracy, idiot. If I wanted to buy accounts up I would just do it, there'd be no need to hide behind any veil because I could give a rat's ass what most of you think. Ray McCormack is active in game, I can see this from market transactions for 07/11/09. Why is he leaving you, the least diplomatic of Ebank spokespersons to make excuses? Why is it whenever PP/Evalf posts the remaining Ebank staff turn nasty. Shar made more abrasive remarks to Hexx in his resignment post, but... no comment from Ebank on those. Feel like sharing? edit: oops My thoughts on it they took it personal that I posted before what they feel of having a chance to post about the dealings with ricdic and from there a few bad other things. Like the day i found out about my wifes miscariage AC decided to bother me about stuff I asked to not be bothered about, and then continued to bother me about it after being asked to stop. Hexxx had to finally tell him to drop it. Since then I have lost all respect for him even as a friend, as that was personal, not that it matterd since he lost his repsect for me when I posted about ric's scam. Don't think many others attack me to harshly, no more than I would attack them. Actually I still talk with a few of them. Ray attacks me but that is because he is left with a mess in Ebank and holds me responsible even though I left a year ago. Atleast taht is only thing I can come up with.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:17:00 - [1009] Originally by: Proton Power My thoughts on it they took it personal that I posted before what they feel of having a chance to post about the dealings with ricdic and from there a few bad other things. Like the day i found out about my wifes miscariage AC decided to bother me about stuff I asked to not be bothered about, and then continued to bother me about it after being asked to stop. Hexxx had to finally tell him to drop it. Since then I have lost all respect for him even as a friend, as that was personal, not that it matterd since he lost his repsect for me when I posted about ric's scam. Don't think many others attack me to harshly, no more than I would attack them. Actually I still talk with a few of them. Ray attacks me but that is because he is left with a mess in Ebank and holds me responsible even though I left a year ago. Atleast taht is only thing I can come up with. If they have something against you, they need to come out with it. And I want to hear your case, otherwise they need to STFU with the snidey remarks and you need to sing from the highest building long and loud. We appear to be at the arse covering stage. T'isnt pretty either way. I've seen Ricdic called a "turd" by Ray (which is warranted currently, but not historically - Ricdic was the first to question Ionia holding so much public funds and Ray was the quickest to defend). Everyone makes character judgements, forms loyalties, but also make mistakes...I've rarely seen anyone here admit to making a mistake in any form. Personally, I think you can take the abuse If so, every nasty, snidey response that has been made to you needs to be revisited for consideration. Why do you keep getting told to STFU and go away? If you're irrelevant why the tears? You could clean up at this point and admit to being a pain in the arse if that's all it boils down to Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? I hardly think he cares if they do, but a stronger response to a blatant breach of promise is warranted IMO if anyone dares to do it.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:21:00 - [1010] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Originally by: Proton Power My thoughts on it they took it personal that I posted before what they feel of having a chance to post about the dealings with ricdic and from there a few bad other things. Like the day i found out about my wifes miscariage AC decided to bother me about stuff I asked to not be bothered about, and then continued to bother me about it after being asked to stop. Hexxx had to finally tell him to drop it. Since then I have lost all respect for him even as a friend, as that was personal, not that it matterd since he lost his repsect for me when I posted about ric's scam. Don't think many others attack me to harshly, no more than I would attack them. Actually I still talk with a few of them. Ray attacks me but that is because he is left with a mess in Ebank and holds me responsible even though I left a year ago. Atleast taht is only thing I can come up with. If they have something against you, they need to come out with it. And I want to hear your case, otherwise they need to STFU with the snidey remarks and you need to sing from the highest building long and loud. We appear to be at the arse covering stage. T'isnt pretty either way. I've seen Ricdic called a "turd" by Ray (which is warranted currently, but not historically - Ricdic was the first to question Ionia holding so much public funds and Ray was the quickest to defend). Everyone makes character judgements, forms loyalties, but also make mistakes...I've rarely seen anyone here admit to making a mistake in any form. Personally, I think you can take the abuse If so, every nasty, snidey response that has been made to you needs to be revisited for consideration. Why do you keep getting told to STFU and go away? If you're irrelevant why the tears? You could clean up at this point and admit to being a pain in the arse if that's all it boils down to Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? I hardly think he cares if they do, but a stronger response to a blatant breach of promise is warranted IMO if anyone dares to do it. Look how I got dragged into this one tbh, All i did was offer to buyback some isk at 30% didnt say anyting bad, they come in attack then I do the same. Its stupid on both parts tbh. My argument is they started it lol. Agree the deadline is well past deadline lol
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:25:00 - [1011] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? Lol. Who? Where? Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel I hardly think he cares if they do, but a stronger response to a blatant breach of promise is warranted IMO if anyone dares to do it. What's getting mad going to do? It hasn't made an impact since this whole thing started. Missed deadlines and ****ty pr is just par for the course.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:33:00 - [1012] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? Lol. Who? Where? Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel I hardly think he cares if they do, but a stronger response to a blatant breach of promise is warranted IMO if anyone dares to do it. What's getting mad going to do? It hasn't made an impact since this whole thing started. Missed deadlines and ****ty pr is just par for the course. Mmm read back, there have been plenty of Ray sympathisers.. and not those you would expect. Time to whip out the aluminium baseball bats. "Don't blame Ray... his reputation is impeccable... he, he we love him... its not his fault, he's credible!" yada yada. Mhm, well, I call BS sorry, past time. His handling of the Ebank situation is now part of his credability, and he shouldn't be letting the remaining eejits in Ebank deal with this rubbish, let alone post on the forum. Either cash out and move on or launch another forum bomb. The whole thing is beginning to look more staged in the dissolution than it did in formation.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:34:00 - [1013] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 08/11/2009 04:35:16 Is it just me or does having current ebank employees or bod members buying up accounts for pennies on the dollar constitute a serious conflict of interest? Flame on! -GV edit: sp
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:38:00 - [1014] Edited by: Proton Power on 08/11/2009 04:40:14 Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 08/11/2009 04:35:16 Is it just me or does having current ebank employees or bod members buying up accounts for pennies on the dollar constitute a serious conflict of interest? Flame on! -GV edit: sp If you mean me, I am nor have I been on the BOD for I want to say over a year now. Edit: I will not buy any Ebank isk. Hopefully this will take less pressure off, didnt think me offering was a big deal i was wrong i appologize.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:40:00 - [1015] Originally by: Proton Power My thoughts on it they took it personal that I posted before what they feel of having a chance to post about the dealings with ricdic and from there a few bad other things. Like the day i found out about my wifes miscariage AC decided to bother me about stuff I asked to not be bothered about, and then continued to bother me about it after being asked to stop. Hexxx had to finally tell him to drop it. Since then I have lost all respect for him even as a friend, as that was personal, not that it matterd since he lost his repsect for me when I posted about ric's scam. Don't think many others attack me to harshly, no more than I would attack them. Actually I still talk with a few of them. Ray attacks me but that is because he is left with a mess in Ebank and holds me responsible even though I left a year ago. Atleast taht is only thing I can come up with. Oh I see how this is going to go, let's take our gloves off then. For starters, i didn't know jack ** about your personal tragedy when I was messaging you. And after I found out I stopped. And I haven't talked directly to you in a long while because you live in some odd-ball world where logic is tossed out the window and all that matters is Proton Power's own screwed up sense of how things work. And since you brought it up, I was ed about you coming out about Ricdic when you did because I didn't know jack ** about how deep it went. That's what we were trying to do, get a rough estimate on how bad it was. But I remember how you wouldn't listen to a word I was saying, you put on your armor and rode out to slay the dragon! Anyways, I'm sure you don't really care what I have to say just like always... Proton always knows best. But I did want to fill in some of the details. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:41:00 - [1016] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 08/11/2009 04:35:16 Is it just me or does having current ebank employees or bod members buying up accounts for pennies on the dollar constitute a serious conflict of interest? Flame on! -GV edit: sp Lol look at when cosmo offered to start buying up accounts and was approached to join the BoD; it's right here in the forum records for those who missed it. What makes you think Ebank even comprehends the idea "conflict of interest"?
Lady Centrina	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:42:00 - [1017] My point in regards to Proton's post is that maybe even he is being used and doesn't realize it. I remember Proton's stellar record dating back to at least 2007 while he was running one of the first truly successful public businesses. I know that Proton served in the military, don't know if he is still active, but having known a lot of military folks I can say that 99% of them are trustworthy and don't just screw with people in real life or in a game. My concern is that Ray has taken on more than he can chew, EBANK is FUBAR, and if you don't know what that means then you need a little education on the side. I just wish we could get some answer, and for AC and PP, at this point you are getting drug through the mud for a mess that isn't your doing, I for one would let someone else take the brunt of this.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:43:00 - [1018] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? Show me where this happened. I haven't seen a single positive post since the deadline was missed.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:45:00 - [1019] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Proton Power My thoughts on it they took it personal that I posted before what they feel of having a chance to post about the dealings with ricdic and from there a few bad other things. Like the day i found out about my wifes miscariage AC decided to bother me about stuff I asked to not be bothered about, and then continued to bother me about it after being asked to stop. Hexxx had to finally tell him to drop it. Since then I have lost all respect for him even as a friend, as that was personal, not that it matterd since he lost his repsect for me when I posted about ric's scam. Don't think many others attack me to harshly, no more than I would attack them. Actually I still talk with a few of them. Ray attacks me but that is because he is left with a mess in Ebank and holds me responsible even though I left a year ago. Atleast taht is only thing I can come up with. Oh I see how this is going to go, let's take our gloves off then. For starters, i didn't know jack ** about your personal tragedy when I was messaging you. And after I found out I stopped. And I haven't talked directly to you in a long while because you live in some odd-ball world where logic is tossed out the window and all that matters is Proton Power's own screwed up sense of how things work. And since you brought it up, I was ed about you coming out about Ricdic when you did because I didn't know jack ** about how deep it went. That's what we were trying to do, get a rough estimate on how bad it was. But I remember how you wouldn't listen to a word I was saying, you put on your armor and rode out to slay the dragon! Anyways, I'm sure you don't really care what I have to say just like always... Proton always knows best. But I did want to fill in some of the details. You may want to edit this. I told you what happend the first half the conversation, your exact words: I know but, and then you kept the conversation going. NOt even so much as sorry to hear. Anyway half the bank employee's think you should STFU on these forums as well. Your making things much worse, from giving hte middle finger after the deadline was over do to now.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:45:00 - [1020] Originally by: Proton Power Look how I got dragged into this one tbh, All i did was offer to buyback some isk at 30% didnt say anyting bad, they come in attack then I do the same. Its stupid on both parts tbh. My argument is they started it lol. Agree the deadline is well past deadline lol You posting in an EBANK thread always ****es me off, in this case its because you think something would have happened to your account because of how you acted in the past. Funny that you are blameless again. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:50:00 - [1021] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Proton Power Look how I got dragged into this one tbh, All i did was offer to buyback some isk at 30% didnt say anyting bad, they come in attack then I do the same. Its stupid on both parts tbh. My argument is they started it lol. Agree the deadline is well past deadline lol You posting in an EBANK thread always ****es me off, in this case its because you think something would have happened to your account because of how you acted in the past. Funny that you are blameless again. What would you like me to take the blame for? I didn't try and hold the information about ricdic back soon as I found out. Sorry I thought MD should know? Lets go back in time to when I was in Ebank, my biggest complaint is what helped bring this entire thing down, people being inactive. Now were did I fault in Ebank, well I helped the cause of less accounting with TXD, I don't deney that one bit, nor have I. What else do you want me to take the blame for, I will let you know if I will do so.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:52:00 - [1022] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? Show me where this happened. I haven't seen a single positive post since the deadline was missed. Sorry, to be more concise, "where are the aluminium baseball bats"? You've had a week to whip em out, why am I the one pointing out Ray is active in game whilst AC deflects the aggro with his usual tact and charm? The silence is surprising. Ray is likeable from his forum posts, I dunno about in-game or RL. Well established player, good "reputation", the saviour of ebank and all that, but he made a promise, then wandered off. Where is the lynch mob? Cowering in a corner somewhere? Or toying with easier targets, working out whether they re credible enough to attack full on? Lol it's so easy to play with new ppl in MD but a damn sight harder to call out those with "rep" (/spits). Conflict of interest indeed.
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:53:00 - [1023] Originally by: Proton Power Anyway half the bank employee's think you should STFU on these forums as well. Your making things much worse, from giving hte middle finger after the deadline was over do to now. Which half would that be? The half that was around before during and after the ** hit the fan or the half that wasn't? /middle finger again How much isk did you lose in all this anyways? I seriously doubt it was more than me, maybe that's why I'm ed... because I too lost a load of isk just like some people. The difference is that I'll never get mine back and when ebank recovers the depositors will get theirs back. You always assume you know all the details and that's what **es me off about you. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:58:00 - [1024] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: Proton Power Anyway half the bank employee's think you should STFU on these forums as well. Your making things much worse, from giving hte middle finger after the deadline was over do to now. Which half would that be? The half that was around before during and after the ** hit the fan or the half that wasn't? /middle finger again How much isk did you lose in all this anyways? I seriously doubt it was more than me, maybe that's why I'm ed... because I too lost a load of isk just like some people. The difference is that I'll never get mine back and when ebank recovers the depositors will get theirs back. You always assume you know all the details and that's what es me off about you. Didnt claim to know all the details. Please point me to any post that says differant that I know every detail of Ebank. Both are still part of Ebank currently that I know of. Don't know how much I lost tbh, maybe a mil or two, so yes you probably lost more. But how does that change anything? Atleast you know whats up your customers that have lost MORE isk than you still don't know a thing because your a week past the deadline now, which was created by EBANK not the customers. I felt the initial deadline was to long, asked how I could help and was told to F' off by Ray, so can't say I didnt try to help. So far I ** you off cause I am a knight on a white horse or some crap like that and now because I know all details. Whats next?
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:02:00 - [1025] Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 08/11/2009 05:04:38 Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel The silence is surprising. Ray is likeable from his forum posts, I dunno about in-game or RL. Well established player, good "reputation", the saviour of ebank and all that, but he made a promise, then wandered off. Where is the lynch mob? Cowering in a corner somewhere? Or toying with easier targets, working out whether they re credible enough to attack full on? Lol it's so easy to play with new ppl in MD but a damn sight harder to call out those with "rep" (/spits). Conflict of interest indeed. I believe Ray is asleep, most of the time when he's awake I'm asleep or at work and when I'm online he's asleep. And when I'm drinking, he's no where to be found..... and right now he's no where to be found (Because he's asleep and I'm drinking). Edit: I guess there's a few reasons you **** me off PP, my bad there. Also, unless they lost more than 15-20b then they come up a bit short. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:05:00 - [1026] Originally by: Lady Centrina My point in regards to Proton's post is that maybe even he is being used and doesn't realize it. I remember Proton's stellar record dating back to at least 2007 while he was running one of the first truly successful public businesses. I know that Proton served in the military, don't know if he is still active, but having known a lot of military folks I can say that 99% of them are trustworthy and don't just screw with people in real life or in a game. My concern is that Ray has taken on more than he can chew, EBANK is FUBAR, and if you don't know what that means then you need a little education on the side. I just wish we could get some answer, and for AC and PP, at this point you are getting drug through the mud for a mess that isn't your doing, I for one would let someone else take the brunt of this. Thanks mate, yes I am still Active Duty. Per the Ray taking on more than he can chew, my honest opinion is everyone will end up with all there isk back much shorter than you all think. Per me and AC, the person that gets the brunt of this is actually ricdic. We all know he is the main person to blame, then anyone who was suppose to be auditing all this garbage to make sure profits were being made. Me and AC both take this personally because we were actually decent friends prior to this. I still don't have many hard feelings towards him other than the one day he bothered me after I asked him not to do so. But he was not the only one, so really try not to hold that against him.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:05:00 - [1027] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel "where are the aluminium baseball bats"? ...that's the big support/defence? Are you joking? ...ya, I don't even know what to say here. Since Ray has taken over the whole of MD has allowed him to dicate when information is released. I'm really surprised you are missing this. Yes, more rabble, yes more noise. Do you seriously think it takes this long to do a retrospective analysis of financial records? Look at the date Ray took over Chairmanship at Ebank. Look at the resignations, inactivity from various people. Sackings have clearly been made but not officially documented. Look at the timing between Ebank "official" statements to MD. Look at the gap between the account freeze, the statement blatantly named "Ebank Scandal", look at the promise made for an update, then broken. MD is either being manipulated or Ebank is staffed by morons. Which do you think is the case?
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:15:00 - [1028] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? I asked you to show me where. You can't. Now you're deflecting with a bunch of irrelevant stuff. Unless you can show me where, don't bother responding anymore because I don't care.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:16:00 - [1029] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Since Ray has taken over the whole of MD has allowed him to dicate when information is released. Yes, I agree. We should compel Ray to release information instead, preferably by beating him with the aforementioned aluminum baseball bats until he talks. Be rational here, updates will come when Ray makes them. Yes, he's busted his self-imposed deadline by about a week now, boo hoo. Are the whole MD 'allowing' him to do this? MD's denizens actually have, brace yourself, no control whatsoever over what he does. It would be nice if someone from EBANK posted in this thread with a reason for the delay thoug--- oh wait AC already did. Stop causing drama, good lord. Originally by: Karanth Or, in other words, random people can't usurp rights from government because they are insane/bitter/vengeful/made of potato salad.
Gabriel Virtus hirr	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:24:00 - [1030] I think EBank should endorse its current employees and bod members to buy up deposits. There is no sort of conflicts of interests at all. This would definitely be an entirely moral and fair thing to do. I endorse this practice and am glad to see AC155, the pillar of morality and credibility that he is, to continue. Flame on -GV
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:30:00 - [1031] Originally by: Frenden Dax Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Since Ray has taken over the whole of MD has allowed him to dicate when information is released. Yes, I agree. We should compel Ray to release information instead, preferably by beating him with the aforementioned aluminum baseball bats until he talks. Be rational here, updates will come when Ray makes them. Yes, he's busted his self-imposed deadline by about a week now, boo hoo. Are the whole MD 'allowing' him to do this? MD's denizens actually have, brace yourself, no control whatsoever over what he does. It would be nice if someone from EBANK posted in this thread with a reason for the delay thoug--- oh wait AC already did. Stop causing drama, good lord. You missed my point. Anyone else defaulting on a significant deadline in MD would be torn to shreds rapidly within days, if not hours. Given the size of this the forum warriors should have been at full crack... but wait, "conflict of interest" anyone? Does it hurt their interests to push this? Could it damage their reputations if they go full crack at Ray personally? It's hardly a drama, I simply find the hypocracy hilarious. But carry on playing with Ray, because it's blatantly obvious, he is playing, and MD are participating quite willingly, well played to him indeed that he has this measure of control. /gn
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.08 13:25:00 - [1032] Quote: If some of the current BoD or current staff have an issue with me on here they can feel free to let me know rather than doing what they did when Ricdic was running the bank into the ground..... nothing at all. It's called "tecnique of the rubber wall". That is stand impassible till people get bored and leave. This worked very well in RL in some very muddy affair called "Ustica Massacre", as it managed to keep many people out of jail. Quote: MD is either being manipulated or Ebank is staffed by morons. Which do you think is the case? MD is being manipulated, but not by morons. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Roguehalo	Posted - 2009.11.08 14:36:00 - [1033] I've never been any great fan of Ebank........particularly when Ricpric was running it. However I think that Ray is probably making honest efforts to salvage as much as possible from the wreckage. Salvage operations are probably being hindered by the upcoming patch induced downturn and I suspect that when the 'announcement' does come it will only be a holding announcement since the best time to liquidate Ebank will be during the post patch boom. tl,dr It's gonna take time....be patient
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.08 17:53:00 - [1034] Amarr Citizen 155, I just wanted to know is it even possible to take out a loan of 1.3billion ? so i can continue to run my business~ ? Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.08 18:51:00 - [1035] Originally by: Roguehalo I've never been any great fan of Ebank........particularly when Ricpric was running it. However I think that Ray is probably making honest efforts to salvage as much as possible from the wreckage. Salvage operations are probably being hindered by the upcoming patch induced downturn and I suspect that when the 'announcement' does come it will only be a holding announcement since the best time to liquidate Ebank will be during the post patch boom. tl,dr It's gonna take time....be patient Aye, but that's just it. Those that are contemplating the "less, but immediate" cash out option would probably like to ride the tide of the patch too. Not let ebank take credit for it while making less money using its interest free loan. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.08 21:47:00 - [1036] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Why has a deadline been set and missed and people are still kissing Ray's backside? I asked you to show me where. You can't. Now you're deflecting with a bunch of irrelevant stuff. Unless you can show me where, don't bother responding anymore because I don't care. Please look at the title of this whole post: "Next announcement October 15th - Nov 1st, wait patiently or whine in here" or something like that. Then AC stated on this post that there will be a slight delay because more stuff is coming out of the audit. Just sit back and wait for the announcement. I would rather see a post with ALL the facts than a half hearted stab that keeps a few people happy.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.08 22:09:00 - [1037] Originally by: cosmoray Just sit back and wait for the announcement. I would rather see a post with ALL the facts than a half hearted stab that keeps a few people happy. I doubt your going to get anything with all the facts here.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.08 23:41:00 - [1038] Originally by: cosmoray Please look at the title of this whole post: "Next announcement October 15th - Nov 1st, wait patiently or whine in here" or something like that. Then AC stated on this post that there will be a slight delay because more stuff is coming out of the audit. Just sit back and wait for the announcement. I would rather see a post with ALL the facts than a half hearted stab that keeps a few people happy. Not sure who you're responding to here...If it's me, I was asking to see where people were "kissing Ray's ass" after the deadline, not whether there was a deadline or not.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.09 00:16:00 - [1039] I think Ray is the best, and i support EBNKA
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.09 05:23:00 - [1040] Rabble, Rabble, Rabble! I can appreciate wanting to delay a day or two but it's now more than a week late. At a certain point you have accept that any report is better than no report and put what you have out there. Anyways, it's not like you have to worry about "investor" confidence; the sum-total of their power is to whine really loud. Speaking of which, Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.09 05:46:00 - [1041] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 08/11/2009 05:04:38 Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel The silence is surprising. Ray is likeable from his forum posts, I dunno about in-game or RL. Well established player, good "reputation", the saviour of ebank and all that, but he made a promise, then wandered off. Where is the lynch mob? Cowering in a corner somewhere? Or toying with easier targets, working out whether they re credible enough to attack full on? Lol it's so easy to play with new ppl in MD but a damn sight harder to call out those with "rep" (/spits). Conflict of interest indeed. I believe Ray is asleep, most of the time when he's awake I'm asleep or at work and when I'm online he's asleep. And when I'm drinking, he's no where to be found..... and right now he's no where to be found (Because he's asleep and I'm drinking). Edit: I guess there's a few reasons you ** me off PP, my bad there. Also, unless they lost more than 15-20b then they come up a bit short. Does this indicate there is nothing on your internal forums about this whole issue? Ray hasn't been around in a good week and you seem to have no idea about anything. Is there actually any form of report or documentation planned or was this delay a way to launder funds before people caught on? Is there someone else working for EBANK who has a clue about Public Relations or who doesn't show contempt towards it's customers who can post here instead of you? Seems strange that all of EBANK staff have suddenly vanished except you. Finally, were you a director while Ricdic was CEO? If so, wouldn't you be just as responsible for the failings of EBANK than the rest of the staff you were quick to slag off as per: Quote:** If some of the current BoD or current staff have an issue with me on here they can feel free to let me know rather than doing what they did when Ricdic was running the bank into the ground..... nothing at all. In this quote you clearly say Board or Staff, so were you referring to yourself as well? If not, who specifically were you referring too?
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.11.09 06:14:00 - [1042] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Anyone else defaulting on a significant deadline in MD would be torn to shreds rapidly within days, if not hours. Given the size of this the forum warriors should have been at full crack... but wait, "conflict of interest" anyone? Does it hurt their interests to push this? Could it damage their reputations if they go full crack at Ray personally? It's hardly a drama, I simply find the hypocracy hilarious. But carry on playing with Ray, because it's blatantly obvious, he is playing, and MD are participating quite willingly, well played to him indeed that he has this measure of control. /gn Everyone hits a point where they write such things off and move on in their lives. Most have hit this point a while back. Congratulations for being among the most petulant in a forum famous for it's asshattery and internet-lawyering. ----------------
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.11.09 07:12:00 - [1043] Quote: Everyone hits a point where they write such things off and move on in their lives. Most have hit this point a while back. This. Personally EBank stopped being relevant to me when Ricdic basically said he'd taken RL securities on ISK loans which he'd reinvest as GTC if anyone defaulted on loans, which basically surmounts to RMT (in my subjective opinion of course) EBank's current staff and people who deposited into EBank still hoping for their ISK back are just vultures picking over a dead body (once again, my subjective opinion)
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.09 13:26:00 - [1044] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I think EBank should endorse its current employees and bod members to buy up deposits. There is no sort of conflicts of interests at all. This would definitely be an entirely moral and fair thing to do. I endorse this practice and am glad to see AC155, the pillar of morality and integrity that he is, to continue it. While this sounds like a good idea, it is very important that they release information about their current financial situation BEFORE they start buying back deposits. Bank insiders buying back deposits based on non-public information is a very, very bad idea.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.09 13:39:00 - [1045] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Rabble, Rabble, Rabble! I can appreciate wanting to delay a day or two but it's now more than a week late. At a certain point you have accept that any report is better than no report and put what you have out there. Anyways, it's not like you have to worry about "investor" confidence; the sum-total of their power is to whine really loud. Speaking of which, Rabble! Rabble! Rabble! I agree, there should have been an announcement from ray. But tbh, i think they rushed this audit a bit, no way it can be done so fast, unless you make it a fulltime job. All we can do is being patient, i am personally looking forward to buying up cheap EBANK isk :D
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.09 16:30:00 - [1046] Originally by: Katiana Swan Does this indicate there is nothing on your internal forums about this whole issue? No it doesn't indicate that, there is a lot going on about this on our internal form.....but it's internal. Originally by: Katiana Swan Ray hasn't been around in a good week and you seem to have no idea about anything. Ray has been around a lot, he just hasn't been around this thread. There are two types of fun to be had in regards to this thread, posting in it and stirring the pot or avoiding it and letting the pot stir itself. And its not that I don't know anything, its that I'm not telling you. Originally by: Katiana Swan Is there actually any form of report or documentation planned or was this delay a way to launder funds before people caught on? Yes there is a document that will be posted soon, although I could just be telling you that to buy more time for my ebil plan... Originally by: Katiana Swan Is there someone else working for EBANK who has a clue about Public Relations or who doesn't show contempt towards it's customers who can post here instead of you? Nope, there used to be but he left. You might remember him and the way he ran things...his name was Ricdic. Forgive me if I don't do things the same way he did. Originally by: Katiana Swan Seems strange that all of EBANK staff have suddenly vanished except you. Dun, Dun, Dun! And me holding this bloody axe.....no not really. Originally by: Katiana Swan Finally, were you a director while Ricdic was CEO? If so, wouldn't you be just as responsible for the failings of EBANK than the rest of the staff you were quick to slag off as per There is a really good story here that most of you will never know, but it involves me doing something good that I don't mind not getting credit for. To answer your question, I became a director at the end of the Ricdic era and only had the pleasure of being involved in the wave splashing on the beach rather than riding the wave at it's highest point. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Kim McCormack Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.09 16:45:00 - [1047] Hello everybody. The announcement will be made when it is ready.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.09 16:53:00 - [1048] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel I've seen Ricdic called a "turd" by Ray (which is warranted currently, but not historically - Ricdic was the first to question Ionia holding so much public funds and Ray was the quickest to defend). I think you've got this wrong, I don't recall defending Ionia. What I do recall is Ric making **** up by guessing at what Ionia had held in public ISK, a figure he pulled out of his arse. I called him on it, as it was completely off base. Is that perhaps the occasion you're thinking of? Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 17:38:00 - [1049] And now the one important question for this thread: is Kim McCormack Ray's missus or gf (roleplayed of course)? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.09 17:44:00 - [1050] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha And now the one important question for this thread: is Kim McCormack Ray's missus or gf (roleplayed of course)? She's my slave you sick son of a *****! Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.11.09 18:30:00 - [1051] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha This worked very well in RL in some very muddy affair called "Ustica Massacre", as it managed to keep many people out of jail. Wow, never heard of that. Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Gabriel Virtus I think EBank should endorse its current employees and bod members to buy up deposits. There is no sort of conflicts of interests at all. This would definitely be an entirely moral and fair thing to do. I endorse this practice and am glad to see AC155, the pillar of morality and integrity that he is, to continue it. While this sounds like a good idea, it is very important that they release information about their current financial situation BEFORE they start buying back deposits. Bank insiders buying back deposits based on non-public information is a very, very bad idea. Long post, so skip it if you have no attention spa...already lost them. In the US revolutionary war the fledging US government paid their soldiers in 'script', basically IOUs to be paid back at a future date. Except they weren't paid back. A decade goes buy and the rabble continues to rabble about the money the government owes them but will not pay them when some enterprising bankers get a great idea. The bankers start buying the script for 1/10th is face value from the former soldiers and since getting something is better than nothing, the soldiers sell the script to the bankers. After a few more years, and once the bankers have bought most of the script that is thought to have been issued, the bankers begin petitioning the government to repay the debt to the veterans of the revolutionary war. The bankers make it a huge patriotic political issue, even though almost no veterans now own that script. The government finally capitulates, and pays off all those old IOUs at full face value... to the bankers who now hold them. Which is why anyone with even a chance of having insider knowledge buying EBANK debt seems so hinky. If they are buying, it probably means it has a greater value than whatever is being offered. And the longer we go without an announcement the more likely account holders are to sell off their accounts at a loss, which makes the delay seem even more nefarious. Mind you, I could care less. I don't have any money in EBANK, and I am using all the ISK I have with none to spare to purchase EBANK accounts.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 18:41:00 - [1052] Quote: Wow, never heard of that. Imagine being a relative of one of a whole airplane worth of people. One day it goes poof. Disappeared. For years, years, years and more years it's been covered, hidden, politics, military, everyone would just stay off it or decline to even comment on it. The victims' relatives tried so much for so long, always beating against the rubber wall. The same technique, once again, has been effectuvely used again for other shady homicides beginning with "Ilaria Alpi", a controversial affair nosing journalist who was following Onu's "Operation Hope". Once again, the rubber wall. No answer. No research. Apparent investigations engineered to achieve nothing. And so on and on. Once again, secret services actively disguising tracks. I could go on for ... years. My country is somewhat specialized at that. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:00:00 - [1053] Originally by: Dzil Use alts, fools :P I am, that's why I posted my offer with cosmoray. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:01:00 - [1054] RAYY!!! have u ver look at my request for bank loan ? i need to pay off previous lottery to get my reputation back to get the lottery going again for income ! Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:10:00 - [1055] Originally by: FlameWarrior RAYY!!! have u ver look at my request for bank loan ? i need to pay off previous lottery to get my reputation back to get the lottery going again for income ! Detail your collateral and your valuation of it in an EVEMail to me and we can go from there. Please remember your collateral needs to exceed the loan amount in value. And as a teaser of what is contained in the next announcement, we'll allow you to use 30% of your account value as collateral, but only for up to 20% of the loan amount. That means you still need to supply at least 80% of the loan in collateral, but the remaining 20% can be made up from account ISK, as long as it doesn't exceed 30% of the account value. Simple, eh? That was one of OZ's brain farts. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:21:00 - [1056] Edited by: Leneerra on 09/11/2009 19:21:44 Originally by: Ji Sama All we can do is being patient, i am personally looking forward to buying up cheap EBANK isk :D So how much are you offering?
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:36:00 - [1057] ray u r offline !! how can i contact u Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:39:00 - [1058] Originally by: Ray McCormack *Detail your collateral and your valuation of it in an EVEMail* to me and we can go from there. Please remember your collateral needs to exceed the loan amount in value.** Titan BPC Auction Thread
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.09 20:00:00 - [1059] Originally by: FlameWarrior ray u r offline !! how can i contact u FlameWarrior, if you have collateral to take out a loan, there are several places you can do so. Your billion+ isk is gone sir.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.09 20:20:00 - [1060] Originally by: Leneerra Edited by: Leneerra on 09/11/2009 19:21:44 Originally by: Ji Sama All we can do is being patient, i am personally looking forward to buying up cheap EBANK isk :D So how much are you offering? need to work it out exactly how much, but around 20% would be a fair offer :)
Kitchi Manitou	Posted - 2009.11.09 20:33:00 - [1061] RAY, congrates. From what I'm reading yu are restoring the confidence in EBANK, I see offers to buy account for 20% to 30%. This is a good sign. I just wanted to say if you post a plan, will it be posted on the EBank web site?
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.09 21:02:00 - [1062] Edited by: Mahke on 09/11/2009 21:02:30 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: FlameWarrior RAYY!!! have u ver look at my request for bank loan ? i need to pay off previous lottery to get my reputation back to get the lottery going again for income ! Detail your collateral and your valuation of it in an EVEMail to me and we can go from there. Please remember your collateral needs to exceed the loan amount in value. And as a teaser of what is contained in the next announcement, we'll allow you to use 30% of your account value as collateral, but only for up to 20% of the loan amount. That means you still need to supply at least 80% of the loan in collateral, but the remaining 20% can be made up from account ISK, as long as it doesn't exceed 30% of the account value. Simple, eh? That was one of OZ's brain farts. If you want this to actually work you'll have to accept a pitiful interest rate: a decent 5% roi, 80% collaterized loan could fill up in minutes or hours to the public, and a 4% loan would probably fill up eventually if it was well thought-out and not too huge. And heck, the whole nearly-fully-collaterized loan is only a recent phenomenon because so many people have giant piles of stuff sitting around for patch-speculative and related reasons they can put up for collateral while still potentially profiting from (because they're speculating with that capital, not investing it). Highly collaterized loans will cease to make sense again to the people asking for one again once dominion comes out and the markets settle (since if the collateral is doing nothing, why not just liquify it and use it instead of paying interest on a loan). tl;dr: if you expect this to be well received, be ready to accept absolutely miniscule interest on the potential loans you are talking about to compete with what the general public will be willing to do for on 80% collaterized debt.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.09 21:06:00 - [1063] EBANK already deos collateralized loans. At present over 300B worth. Won't make a big difference at all. All it means is that people can release a little bit of equity, but they have to have substantial assets to release it. My prediction, not many takers.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.09 21:12:00 - [1064] Edited by: Mahke on 09/11/2009 21:12:47 Originally by: cosmoray EBANK already deos collateralized loans. At present over 300B worth. This surprises me. Unless the collateral is small as a percent of the loan (in which case giving some collateral makes sense), they are basically making a contract with EBANK to buy the collateral back from them at X point in time after having paid interest on it in the meanwhile. There is no reason at all to do this unless you believe that the underlying value of the collateral will increase at a higher rate than interest.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.09 23:00:00 - [1065] Ray, If someone was to excercize the option to use at most 30% of their listed account value to function as 20% of the collateral of a new loan (80% colateralized trough other means), and that loan is defaulted on. Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%?
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.10 00:10:00 - [1066] Originally by: Leneerra Ray, If someone was to excercize the option to use at most 30% of their listed account value to function as 20% of the collateral of a new loan (80% colateralized trough other means), and that loan is defaulted on. Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%? There's a divide by zero joke in here somewhere, I'm sure of it. An interesting question though. Complicated by the hypothetical situation of someone trying to game the face value through intentional default. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.10 00:25:00 - [1067] Not realy intrested in defaulting, but I am intrested in discovering (or getting them to admit) how ebank values our accountholdings at this time. And things do not add up otherwise, if only 30% of the account would be lost in a default, then why the 30% limit for collaterals, the 80/20 division should cover it already. Also, someone mentioned a possible purchase offer at 30% for ebank isk, care to point me in that direction?
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.10 03:36:00 - [1068] Edited by: Tiberizzle on 10/11/2009 03:44:01 You could look at a 30% account balance purchase as giving 7 to 3 odds that EBank will never pay it out, either due to their incapability or unwillingness. It is pretty obvious that both factors are significant in considering the risk: there is little history to EBank other than ineptitude and theft. Being as the buy offers have decreased monotonically over the evolution of the scandal, I think it's safe to say that the risk is currently underestimated. Given the rapid rate of decline for the buy offers, I would go so far as to say that 30% account balance is much greater than the equilibrium price, and that the risk is grossly underestimated. A major factor to keep in mind is that, assuming that they are not scammers, their own numbers indicate thus far a failure to profit over just the insultingly low interest payments. Could they fix the numerious ISK leaks? Perhaps. Could they find something incredibly profitable and low risk to do with a trillion ISK? Perhaps. Are they going to be able to achieve both objectives simultaneously? Perhaps, perhaps, but I think it's more likely they'll continue playing banker until they've eroded so much of the deposits that there isn't any point in liquidating. With their history, trends in the account purchase bids, and assuming that continue to refuse liquidation, it seems to me that frozen EBank deposits are worth less ~~than 1% of account value, 'cause it's a ****ing long shot baby~~ Good luck, suckers.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 05:07:00 - [1069] Originally by: Leneerra Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%? 100%. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 05:14:00 - [1070] Originally by: Leneerra Not realy intrested in defaulting, but I am intrested in discovering (or getting them to admit) how ebank values our accountholdings at this time. That's no secret, you could have just asked straight out and I would have answered. We value them at 10% below our current asset holdings, which is around 40.33% of equity, hence the 30% offer. We're good at sums, no? Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.10 05:46:00 - [1071] Originally by: Ray McCormack That's no secret, you could have just asked straight out and I would have answered. Funniest joke I've heard all day.
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.10 06:51:00 - [1072] Ray, Seeing that asking for deadlines or dates is pretty useless, and following this thread is mostly for entertainment value only... So I think the coolest feature you could implement at ebank would be: Mailing accountholders when their assets are once more availeble for withdrawal. Or perhaps a mailing list we can subscribe to for significan upodates (should they occur) Will you implement these feature? that way I will be able to ignore ebank and still be certain to get some of my isk back once it finally becomes availeble. I'd still be able to visit these treads for entertainment, but at least there would be less hope (very hard to eradicate, but I am impressed with your progress in this) and less frustration to go with it.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:23:00 - [1073] Sure, we'll do that for major updates, as has been done in the past. Just make sure your email address is correct on your account details. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.10 14:53:00 - [1074] hmmm i m not selling my account , n second i m waiting to get the loan asap plz! due to the inefficient and ineffectiveness of eve bank, i have stopped my lottery. I am now needed the isk to pay out my previous lottery! Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 15:05:00 - [1075] Edited by: Kalrand on 10/11/2009 15:05:42 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Leneerra Then how much of their listed account value would they lose? 30% or 100%? 100%. In that case they would be collateralize 20% of their loan, with 100% of their balance, but you would only let them use up to 30% of their balance in this manner, correct? Originally by: FlameWarrior hmmm i m not selling my account , n second i m waiting to get the loan asap plz! due to the inefficient and ineffectiveness of eve bank, i have stopped my lottery. I am now needed the isk to pay out my previous lottery! You really ought to just give up.
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.10 15:58:00 - [1076] Quote: If you want this to actually work you'll have to accept a pitiful interest rate: a decent 5% roi, 80% collaterized loan could fill up in minutes or hours to the public, and a 4% loan would probably fill up eventually if it was well thought-out and not too huge. So, why not offer 3%, with the pockets to fulfill those larger loan needs? 3% monthly may be low by EVE standards, but it's still a healthy chunk of money. 36% per year just by simple interest, more if it's being compounded rather than paid off monthly. Collateral based loans should be "pitifully low" compared to unsecured loans, especially in EVE. People put their money in a bank to be safe. If they wanted high risk, they'd independently invest, or invest in a mutual fund that claimed to be high risk. I don't think collateralized loans are going to magically fill the debt in ebank's coffers, but it is a good sign they are attempting to return to some kind of business norm. A bank frozen and not offering any services is either making no profit at all, or making profit in very non traditional bank ways. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.10 16:08:00 - [1077] EBANK are offering to release 20% of account balance via a loan mechanism. My offer is to purchase entire accounts at 20% of value (no loan required), and for those that saw 30% that was from Proton Power and has been withdrawn. People will have to decide whether they want out or not. note: Once I see EBANK's updated report I reserve the right to change that offer UP or DOWN. 20% is on the table NOW, it may not be for long.
Julian Koll	Posted - 2009.11.10 16:34:00 - [1078] Originally by: cosmoray EBANK are offering to release 20% of account balance via a loan mechanism. My offer is to purchase entire accounts at 20% of value (no loan required), and for those that saw 30% that was from Proton Power and has been withdrawn. People will have to decide whether they want out or not. note: Once I see EBANK's updated report I reserve the right to change that offer UP or DOWN. 20% is on the table NOW, it may not be for long. which imho is a really good offer. the day ebank announced account freeze i toyed with the same thought, even put up an ad in sell orders, but took it down due to my own risk assesment. atm i personally wouldnt offer more than 5%, but maybe you have more trust in them than i do.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 17:02:00 - [1079] Originally by: Julian Koll Originally by: cosmoray EBANK are offering to release 20% of account balance via a loan mechanism. My offer is to purchase entire accounts at 20% of value (no loan required), and for those that saw 30% that was from Proton Power and has been withdrawn. People will have to decide whether they want out or not. note: Once I see EBANK's updated report I reserve the right to change that offer UP or DOWN. 20% is on the table NOW, it may not be for long. which imho is a really good offer. the day ebank announced account freeze i toyed with the same thought, even put up an ad in sell orders, but took it down due to my own risk assesment. atm i personally wouldnt offer more than 5%, but maybe you have more trust in them than i do. Mine was 5.4%. And that was entirely driven by my required IRR of transactions, my cost of funds, and my estimated length of time to recovery. I didn't even bother with trying to estimate the probability that the funds don't get paid back.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 17:46:00 - [1080] Originally by: Kalrand In that case they would be collateralize 20% of their loan, with 100% of their balance, but you would only let them use up to 30% of their balance in this manner, correct? Yes. It's not meant to be an attractive opportunity, or a method to liquidate your investment. It's simply a means whereby account holders can gain some sort of use out of their capital without selling our liquidating their account. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 17:50:00 - [1081] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kalrand In that case they would be collateralize 20% of their loan, with 100% of their balance, but you would only let them use up to 30% of their balance in this manner, correct? Yes. It's not meant to be an attractive opportunity, or a method to liquidate your investment. It's simply a means whereby account holders can gain some sort of use out of their capital without selling our liquidating their account. Curious, what kind of rates are available on new loans, assuming they are ~110% collateralized and in the single digit billions isk range.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.10 17:56:00 - [1082] Originally by: Ray McCormack Yes. It's not meant to be an attractive opportunity, or a method to liquidate your investment. It's simply a means whereby account holders can gain some sort of use out of their capital without selling our liquidating their account. Just to be clear, does the offer apply to deposits that have been purchased by a third party? In other words, can I arbitrage my purchase of EBank deposits by using them as collateral in an Ebank loan at the same terms available to current depositors?
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:00:00 - [1083] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Kalrand In that case they would be collateralize 20% of their loan, with 100% of their balance, but you would only let them use up to 30% of their balance in this manner, correct? Yes. It's not meant to be an attractive opportunity, or a method to liquidate your investment. It's simply a means whereby account holders can gain some sort of use out of their capital without selling our liquidating their account. Curious, what kind of rates are available on new loans, assuming they are ~110% collateralized and in the single digit billions isk range. I offer 6% per month upto 2B on collateralized loans. Over 2B rate drop to 5%. All assets priced at NPC and must be minimum 100% cover.
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:09:00 - [1084] Quote: I am now needed the isk to pay out my previous lottery! I'm too lazy to read the previous pages, but can you clarify how the **** you are operating a lottery in such a manner that you need a loan to pay it out?
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:10:00 - [1085] Originally by: Tiberizzle Quote: I am now needed the isk to pay out my previous lottery! I'm too lazy to read the previous pages, but can you clarify how the **** you are operating a lottery in such a manner that you need a loan to pay it out? He put all the lotto ticket money in ebank. Right before the doors closed.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:17:00 - [1086] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tiberizzle Quote: I am now needed the isk to pay out my previous lottery! I'm too lazy to read the previous pages, but can you clarify how the **** you are operating a lottery in such a manner that you need a loan to pay it out? He put all the lotto ticket money in ebank. Right before the doors closed. No, I think it means he spent the ticket proceeds and needs a loan to pay off the winners. Actually, I think the whole thing sounds like a scam and he's feeding this line to the "winners" as an excuse for not paying them.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:23:00 - [1087] Originally by: cosmoray EBANK are offering to release 20% of account balance via a loan mechanism. I believe we're offering 30% here. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:35:00 - [1088] Originally by: Kalrand Curious, what kind of rates are available on new loans, assuming they are ~110% collateralized and in the single digit billions isk range. Depends. For single digit billions anywhere from 6% to 10%. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:04:00 - [1089] every time i collect isk from ticker buyer i send 1bill into eve bank for interest and other for making profit from trading, luckily I didn't deposit the isk into the bank otherwise i could have lose all my reputation ! n as for ur knowledge it's not a scam ! if u think it is, i could not do nothing but just say look for yourself! Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
FlameWarrior Gallente Hall Of Flame H Y E N A	Posted - 2009.11.10 19:09:00 - [1090] but also got evemail back from ray that, he actually under estimated the collectal prices for 10~20% just for profit making for himself ~!~ Yoyo !LOTTERY MAN IS HERE !
Nano Pope	Posted - 2009.11.11 02:08:00 - [1091] I'm guessing Flamewarrior isn't a native English speaker. I think he's trying to say he put 1.3 billion in EBANK before the freeze that was prize money for his lottery. He didn't put all the isk in and used some for trading which saved his lottery but he still needs the isk to do his next lottery. Or something, it's hard to tell. Whereas Ray has come up with the great idea of using overcollateralized loans to transform your nonexistent paper isk back into real assets. Really though, it's letting you liquidate 20% if you take a loan 4 times larger that is collateralized for 550% of your liquidated assets. Or something, it's hard to tell.
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.11 02:48:00 - [1092] Sure, give Ebank more of your money and assets. They have handled it fantastically so far. Just don't be surprised when your loan collateral is also locked down and made unavailable til 2015
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 04:59:00 - [1093] Originally by: Nano Pope overcollateralized loans Hardly. Your ISK isn't worth what it should be, we're just allowing you to use it's actual value without liquidating or selling it. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.11 06:20:00 - [1094] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Nano Pope overcollateralized loans Hardly. Your ISK isn't worth what it should be, we're just allowing you to use it's actual value without liquidating or selling it. Hardly. You are actually charging money to use what is not yours, but their own money. Anyone can get 6% interest or less with 100% collateral, but you are charging 6 to 10%, asking for the collateral "to exceed the loan amount in value" and valueing isks at 30% when it's value is 40.33% by your own words. You are overcollateralizing in every step and you are not "allowing people to use the money", you are lending them their own money. _+_ "We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination."
Bluebeard Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.11.11 09:49:00 - [1095] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Nano Pope overcollateralized loans Hardly. Your ISK isn't worth what it should be, we're just allowing you to use it's actual value without liquidating or selling it. Hardly. You are actually charging money to use what is not yours, but their own money. Anyone can get 6% interest or less with 100% collateral, but you are charging 6 to 10%, asking for the collateral "to exceed the loan amount in value" and valueing isks at 30% when it's value is 40.33% by your own words. You are overcollateralizing in every step and you are not "allowing people to use the money", you are lending them their own money. So, what you're actually saying, is that Ray has good career prospects if he became a real life banker ?
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.11 14:43:00 - [1096] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Nano Pope overcollateralized loans Hardly. Your ISK isn't worth what it should be, we're just allowing you to use it's actual value without liquidating or selling it. Hardly. You are actually charging money to use what is not yours, but their own money. Anyone can get 6% interest or less with 100% collateral, but you are charging 6 to 10%, asking for the collateral "to exceed the loan amount in value" and valueing isks at 30% when it's value is 40.33% by your own words. You are overcollateralizing in every step and you are not "allowing people to use the money", you are lending them their own money. I'll agree, that's an uncompetitive offer. On the other hand, Ray and team could probably just lock the isk down entirely bond-style and enter manufacturing/marketing endeavors instead, and make a lot more isk/month than fooling with loans. People wanted a choice, he offered it. Next time specify you want an attractive choice. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Edward Gruberman	Posted - 2009.11.11 14:56:00 - [1097] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Nano Pope overcollateralized loans Hardly. Your ISK isn't worth what it should be, we're just allowing you to use it's actual value without liquidating or selling it. Don't you mean YOUR valuation of OUR isk? You were a bank, not a bond or ipo, which means, we put in 1 isk, it's worth 1 isk. Mismanagement through the bank has lost money, not devalued what isk was deposited. I don't remember ever seeing an IPO or Bond offering when Ebank took deposits. At this point, you're treating this whole affair as a bad investment, instead of a bank that did not, or could not, function as an actual bank. Perhaps it's time to change the name from EBANK, to E-BOND? Or just come out and state, "We can't pay everyone back, so we're going to just fritter away whats left on booze, bullets and babes. Seeya!" That, or those directors left that are trying to 'save' ebank, should just buck up, and pay everyone back with their own funds. Call in all loans. List all collateral at the original value taken in and offer that in lieu of isk to your customers. But seriously, stop stringing everyone along with "Oh we need to do this, and that, and this." You've had over a month to do your 'audit'. You obviously know how much you 'value' our isk, so stop dithering, and just finish up this whole sordid episode. Boot to the head...
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:16:00 - [1098] Originally by: Edward Gruberman Don't you mean YOUR valuation of OUR isk? MY valuation is the only valuation that matters. Regarding your other suggestions : 'lol'. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:29:00 - [1099] Originally by: Ray McCormack MY valuation is the only valuation that matters. Too bad your opinion doesn't matter. You are almost 2 weeks past the deadline that YOU set to release information. You are offering to loan people their ISK for 110% collateral and then charging THEM interest. Just admit EBank has failed and no one is getting their ISK back and move on. How ****ing hard is it to do that??
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:29:00 - [1100] Originally by: Dzil an attractive choice. Hey, let's face it, there's nothing attractive about the current EBANK situation. But we're offering you the best choices we can. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:35:00 - [1101] Originally by: Breaker77 Too bad your opinion doesn't matter. /me looks up from the bank vault, keys in hand. Mine is the only opinion that matters, sweet cheeks, and you're doing nothing constructive to change it. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
mishkof Caldari Hmmzor.	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:46:00 - [1102] Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Ray McCormack MY valuation is the only valuation that matters. Too bad your opinion doesn't matter. You are almost 2 weeks past the deadline that YOU set to release information. You are offering to loan people their ISK for 110% collateral and then charging THEM interest. Just admit EBank has failed and no one is getting their ISK back and move on. How ****ing hard is it to do that?? If he did that he wouldnt be getting the next stream of morons on board. As this forum has shown there are a lot of them.
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:55:00 - [1103] Originally by: Ray McCormack /me looks up from the bank vault, keys in hand. It's empty!! Now is the perfect time to close up, take what assets and ISK are left, call in what loans you can, write it off, and start over with a clean slate. You can reuse the infrastructure and start off with full auditing and reports so everyone knows about every last 0.01 ISK. It would be a lot easier than trying to fix this mess and raise hundreds of billions of ISK. Most of the problems were caused by people that are not even involved with EBank anymore, so your hands are clean. Of course there is the slight problem of probably very few people even wanting to touch a bank again, but thats another story.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:15:00 - [1104] Originally by: Breaker77 It's empty!! Now is the perfect time to close up, take what assets and ISK are left, call in what loans you can, write it off, and start over with a clean slate. You can reuse the infrastructure and start off with full auditing and reports so everyone knows about every last 0.01 ISK. It would be a lot easier than trying to fix this mess and raise hundreds of billions of ISK. Most of the problems were caused by people that are not even involved with EBank anymore, so your hands are clean. Of course there is the slight problem of probably very few people even wanting to touch a bank again, but thats another story. This is bang on. Unfortunately it's already been stated in various forms yet rejected. Respectfully, I think criticizing the decision to stay open as well as the resulting mess is a waste of time. All that's left is to examine policies in light of the fact that they are staying open, and not weigh them against the alternative of closing. That's why I don't think the deadline is a big deal: given that they're staying open, fixing everything will be difficult and establishing a solid timeline even more so.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:21:00 - [1105] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Breaker77 Too bad your opinion doesn't matter. /me looks up from the bank vault, keys in hand. Mine is the only opinion that matters, sweet cheeks, and you're doing nothing constructive to change it. So the BOD has no say in anything? The CEO has no say in anything. Interesting.
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:28:00 - [1106] Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Breaker77 Too bad your opinion doesn't matter. /me looks up from the bank vault, keys in hand. Mine is the only opinion that matters, sweet cheeks, and you're doing nothing constructive to change it. So the BOD has no say in anything? The CEO has no say in anything. Interesting. or he's simply stating the current wishes of the current BoD as the face of said BoD since he is the chairman... ---------------------- My Blog
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:32:00 - [1107] Originally by: Breaker77 It would be a lot easier than trying to fix this mess and raise hundreds of billions of ISK. And that's the crux of it, why should we shy away from the difficulties we find ourselves presented with? EVE doesn't need another failure, the financial markets require this bank to survive and continue more than anything else. But that's another argument and one I won't get into here. Needless to say I'll reiterate our commitment to restoring the bank to full liquidity. We'll deal with our popularity when get there... Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:38:00 - [1108] Originally by: Omber Zombie or he's simply stating the current wishes of the current BoD as the face of said BoD since he is the chairman... We should start talking in the 3rd person I guess, pander to the lowest common denominator. And he wonders why I told him to stfu... Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:45:00 - [1109] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Nano Pope overcollateralized loans Hardly. Your ISK isn't worth what it should be, we're just allowing you to use it's actual value without liquidating or selling it. Hardly. You are actually charging money to use what is not yours, but their own money. Anyone can get 6% interest or less with 100% collateral, but you are charging 6 to 10%, asking for the collateral "to exceed the loan amount in value" and valueing isks at 30% when it's value is 40.33% by your own words. You are overcollateralizing in every step and you are not "allowing people to use the money", you are lending them their own money. I'll agree, that's an uncompetitive offer. On the other hand, Ray and team could probably just lock the isk down entirely bond-style and enter manufacturing/marketing endeavors instead, and make a lot more isk/month than fooling with loans. People wanted a choice, he offered it. Next time specify you want an attractive choice. I don't care about how bad the offer is (because I have lost no money with ebank) as long as it is an offer (ie: they give something in exchange). The main issue in my eyes is about Ray lieing and saying that the offer is not overcollaterallized when it is indeed, and the fact that he tries to sell it as a favour to ebank's customers when it is the other way. If I had money in ebank I would be very dissapointed, fortunately I don't. My point is if the offer is crap, customers need to know. Beyond any lies. People that wants their money have expressed the choice they want very clear, so your last phrase comes just out of your ass, so to speak. Nobody said that. When people asked for a choice it was to liquidate their acount for whathever their piece of the cake were. Next time keep your first hand, the other one looks a bit faulty. _+_ "We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination."[img]http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Morpheus/E
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 16:56:00 - [1110] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus The main issue in my eyes is about Ray lieing and saying that the offer is not overcollaterallized when it is indeed, and the fact that he tries to sell it as a favour to ebank's customers when it is the other way. I have no idea what you're on about now, so I'll try explain it in bullet form. * Account holder ISK is frozen, they cannot use it. * Account holder ISK is worth 40% of it's actual value. * We're offering to allow them to leverage that value (less 10% to avoid any unpleasant surprises down the road) by using it as collateral on a loan. * Account holders can now use their capital, something they couldn't do before. * Overcollateralising (sic) loans is just good business sense, would you prefer I did it the unsecured route? Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:12:00 - [1111] Quote: I don't care about how bad the offer is (because I have lost no money with ebank) as long as it is an offer (ie: they give something in exchange). The main issue in my eyes is about Ray lieing and saying that the offer is not overcollaterallized when it is indeed, and the fact that he tries to sell it as a favour to ebank's customers when it is the other way. If I had money in ebank I would be very dissapointed, fortunately I don't. My point is if the offer is crap, customers need to know. Banks are merchants. Their products are all financial based. Their ultimate end is to earn money at the expense of their customers. If you were more into banks you'd see that in RL they are even worse and more ruthless and that almost every single service and product given to you, is experiencedly made to take your money away. Example: expect a bank to strongly advertise and offer you a mortgage with fixed interest ratio when it's the worst time ever to do it and vice versa. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:46:00 - [1112] Originally by: Claire Voyant Just to be clear, does the offer apply to deposits that have been purchased by a third party? In other words, can I arbitrage my purchase of EBank deposits by using them as collateral in an Ebank loan at the same terms available to current depositors? If you are thinking like I am thinking you'd need to buy the accounts for less than 20% (Cosmoroy's current rate). 1) Buy 10 billion worth of Ebank accounts for 10% of value (1 billion) 2) Get a 10 billion loan from Ebank using 3 billion from you account as collateral and 8 Billion in other collateral (minerals, etc.) for a total of 11 billion (110%) 3) Default. 8 + 1 - 10 = 1 Billion profit It isn't much but can be improved by taking larger loans or negotiating lower rates buying accounts. Everyone wins. You make money, the account holder gets some slice of the account that he needs, and ebank makes 10% in collateral (effectively buying out an account liability at <80% of the value). As a side effect, this scheme in effect prices the Ebank accounts at 20% on the open market since you break even at that point using the above scenario.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:51:00 - [1113] Originally by: Omber Zombie Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Breaker77 Too bad your opinion doesn't matter. /me looks up from the bank vault, keys in hand. Mine is the only opinion that matters, sweet cheeks, and you're doing nothing constructive to change it. So the BOD has no say in anything? The CEO has no say in anything. Interesting. or he's simply stating the current wishes of the current BoD as the face of said BoD since he is the chairman... So not one person on the BOD disagree's with the way things are being ran currently. Interesting.
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:54:00 - [1114] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Krathos Morpheus The main issue in my eyes is about Ray lieing and saying that the offer is not overcollaterallized when it is indeed, and the fact that he tries to sell it as a favour to ebank's customers when it is the other way. I have no idea what you're on about now, so I'll try explain it in bullet form. * Account holder ISK is frozen, they cannot use it. * Account holder ISK is worth 40% of it's actual value. * We're offering to allow them to leverage that value (less 10% to avoid any unpleasant surprises down the road) by using it as collateral on a loan. * Account holders can now use their capital, something they couldn't do before. * Overcollateralising (sic) loans is just good business sense, would you prefer I did it the unsecured route? Mmmm... Why did you say it wasn't overcollateralized then? I'm confused. What I don't get is that you lend people their own money without giving them any benefit for it. I mean, you give isks collateralized with a minimun 110.33% (more actually, because you ask for the collateral to exceed the remaining loan if I have not understood it wrong). And you give rates from 6 to 10%. There are no one around here who can not get a loan for less than 6% with full collateral and very few who can not for 80% collateral. So you are offering a loan that includes their ebank acounts 'for free' with no gain for them. How much do you offer for non customers loans? You need to offer something in exchange for the money held as collateral (and it is not the loan since people can get those rates with 80% collateral), as it is now I see no added value at throwing the acount into the loan, you can get the same without it. I can offer some ideas to add value, for example you could let people pay their interest from their eBank acounts. Do something meaningful, giving loans that are worst than the average with no added value is the same as giving nothing, furthermore if you can make more profits than that 6% you are losing money, if you make less, let them pay interest with their eBank's money. Or you could let people get 25-30% of their isks (a fixed percentage of eBanks money value) charging them slightly more interest than the amount you make, revised monthly and payed from their eBank acount, forcing you to keep transparency and proper acounting. Let them put their money back when they see you are making it better. Restrict transactions timing to avoid liquidity problems. Put that bank machine of yours to work again, right now all you are is a fraud cheating on people. This way the people who can make more money than you can will help you to fill the gap while not unbinding themselves from ebank, and at the same time you keep people interested about the evolution of eBank from month to month, instead of discussing the number of years it will take for eBank to recover while stealing their money. If you want to bet for eBank, let people bet against you. If you don't want to bet for eBank, liquidate and give people their money. _+_ "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " EVEwatch Sidebar soon
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.11 18:57:00 - [1115] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Omber Zombie or he's simply stating the current wishes of the current BoD as the face of said BoD since he is the chairman... We should start talking in the 3rd person I guess, pander to the lowest common denominator. And he wonders why I told him to stfu... You said STFU because you know what I said is true, this is taking way to long to let your customers know whats going on, and that was your only defense. And this was before your deadline I stated this, and here again YOU have your customers sitting and waiting. You want my thoughts, you have always hated Ebank and what it did to the 2nd'ary market and now your running it into the ground even further than what Ric did to make sure it stays dead is the only thing I can come up with.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:01:00 - [1116] Originally by: Fleshbot Originally by: Claire Voyant Just to be clear, does the offer apply to deposits that have been purchased by a third party? In other words, can I arbitrage my purchase of EBank deposits by using them as collateral in an Ebank loan at the same terms available to current depositors? If you are thinking like I am thinking you'd need to buy the accounts for less than 20% (Cosmoroy's current rate). 1) Buy 10 billion worth of Ebank accounts for 10% of value (1 billion) 2) Get a 10 billion loan from Ebank using 3 billion from you account as collateral and 8 Billion in other collateral (minerals, etc.) for a total of 11 billion (110%) 3) Default. 8 + 1 - 10 = 1 Billion profit It isn't much but can be improved by taking larger loans or negotiating lower rates buying accounts. Everyone wins. You make money, the account holder gets some slice of the account that he needs, and ebank makes 10% in collateral (effectively buying out an account liability at <80% of the value). As a side effect, this scheme in effect prices the Ebank accounts at 20% on the open market since you break even at that point using the above scenario. The other option is not to default and see how well Ebank does. If they do well and the deposits increase in value, you win. If they collapse and the deposits are worthless, you haven't lost much of anything. So maybe arbitrage is not the right term. More like hedging a bet on EBank deposits.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:06:00 - [1117] Now claire, lets focus on something else please. There is no hedging of ebank accounts. This thread is now about Ray wanting the secondary market dead, and using ebank to give it its final thrust!
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:12:00 - [1118] Originally by: Ji Sama Now claire, lets focus on something else please. There is no hedging of ebank accounts. This thread is now about Ray wanting the secondary market dead, and using ebank to give it its final thrust! Actually I think the opposite. I think he wants Ebank dead and a stronger 2nd'ary market in the end :)
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:13:00 - [1119] Originally by: Proton Power the only thing I can come up with. The stupid-shop phoned, they want their stupid back, it seems you took it all. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:16:00 - [1120] Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Fleshbot As a side effect, this scheme in effect prices the Ebank accounts at 20% on the open market since you break even at that point using the above scenario. The other option is not to default and see how well Ebank does. If they do well and the deposits increase in value, you win. If they collapse and the deposits are worthless, you haven't lost much of anything. So maybe arbitrage is not the right term. More like hedging a bet on EBank deposits. Wow. This is crazy. Ebank accounts are worth 20% of their value, period. They may be worth more or less later but now, they are effectively worth 20% as that is the most you can cash out using the scheme here.
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:18:00 - [1121] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Proton Power the only thing I can come up with. The stupid-shop phoned, they want their stupid back, it seems you took it all. Is this really the best you can come up with? If your going to try and de-rail the thread and get off the fact your well past your stupidly long deadline from the start, atleast come up with somthing a bit better to say.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:19:00 - [1122] Originally by: Proton Power Is this really the best you can come up with? No. You also smell bad. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:19:00 - [1123] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Proton Power the only thing I can come up with. The stupid-shop phoned, they want their stupid back, it seems you took it all. You know C&P does it enough to MD: maybe if we post a couple pages of stuff like this we can get the mods to move the thread to C&P. Forum wars at their finest. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:25:00 - [1124] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Proton Power Is this really the best you can come up with? No. You also smell bad. Have to admit was expecting somting much differant, made me laugh some. I do have an actual question if you can't answer it or don't know the answer just say so. Does the interest paid out in accounts reflect actual value Ebank has ever paid/owes or does it only reflect enough to make the deficit = with your numbers.
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:35:00 - [1125] Originally by: Proton Power ... Does the interest paid out in accounts reflect actual value Ebank has ever paid/owes or does it only reflect enough to make the deficit = with your numbers. [Microsoft Paper Clip] Are you attempting to ask whether Ray's data is enough to determine the exact amounts owed/paid to each account as interest on outstanding balances? [/Microsoft Paper Clip] Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:49:00 - [1126] Originally by: Proton Power Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Proton Power Is this really the best you can come up with? No. You also smell bad. Have to admit was expecting somting much differant, made me laugh some. I do have an actual question if you can't answer it or don't know the answer just say so. Does the interest paid out in accounts reflect actual value Ebank has ever paid/owes or does it only reflect enough to make the deficit = with your numbers. It made me lmao.....
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.11 19:55:00 - [1127] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Proton Power Does the interest paid out in accounts reflect actual value Ebank has ever paid/owes or does it only reflect enough to make the deficit = with your numbers. Are you attempting to ask whether Ray's data is enough to determine the exact amounts owed/paid to each account as interest on outstanding balances? Balogh supplied the figure from the database. I haven't verified it, but I can double check it if you want. It's pure coincidence the deficit and the loss analysis were very similar when the freeze was announced. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Proton Power Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2009.11.11 21:52:00 - [1128] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Proton Power Does the interest paid out in accounts reflect actual value Ebank has ever paid/owes or does it only reflect enough to make the deficit = with your numbers. Are you attempting to ask whether Ray's data is enough to determine the exact amounts owed/paid to each account as interest on outstanding balances? Balogh supplied the figure from the database. I haven't verified it, but I can double check it if you want. It's pure coincidence the deficit and the loss analysis were very similar when the freeze was announced. No need to double check, I was just curious how they matched so closely, but your 2nd sentence does answer that, thanks.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.12 00:27:00 - [1129] Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 00:29:18 Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 00:27:48 Just an idea: If your NAV is ~40% of total obligations and you don't want to liquidate (which IMO would be the best and most honest thing for your investors to do, but, clearly you don't agree), why not offer people the ability to make withdrawals at a loss compared to your NAV? Allowing withdrawals at, say, 30%, for a limited time would let people who have lost all trust and/or who just want their isk NOW get it, but at the same time it would generate a 33% profit for EBANK for every withdrawal made, because for each 3 isk withdrawn, claims with a value of 4 isk (if you liquidated) are erased. Its not an ideal solution, but, given that you refuse to do the right thing and liquidate, if you have any intention at all of eventually paying people back offering such an offer is a win-win for everyone. People who want out can get out (albeit with a tremendous haircut), and people who want to stay in will have to wait much less long for NAV to reach 100% of obligations again.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.12 02:50:00 - [1130] Originally by: Mahke Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 00:29:18 Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 00:27:48 Just an idea: If your NAV is ~40% of total obligations and you don't want to liquidate (which IMO would be the best and most honest thing for your investors to do, but, clearly you don't agree), why not offer people the ability to make withdrawals at a loss compared to your NAV? Allowing withdrawals at, say, 30%, for a limited time would let people who have lost all trust and/or who just want their isk NOW get it, but at the same time it would generate a 33% profit for EBANK for every withdrawal made, because for each 3 isk withdrawn, claims with a value of 4 isk (if you liquidated) are erased. Its not an ideal solution, but, given that you refuse to do the right thing and liquidate, if you have any intention at all of eventually paying people back offering such an offer is a win-win for everyone. People who want out can get out (albeit with a tremendous haircut), and people who want to stay in will have to wait much less long for NAV to reach 100% of obligations again. Partial liquidations don't work. If EBANK offered this there would be a run and all the liquidity would be gone, therefore not allowing any return on the remaining assets to payback customers.
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.12 03:14:00 - [1131] Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 03:15:05 Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Mahke Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 00:29:18 Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 00:27:48 Just an idea: If your NAV is ~40% of total obligations and you don't want to liquidate (which IMO would be the best and most honest thing for your investors to do, but, clearly you don't agree), why not offer people the ability to make withdrawals at a loss compared to your NAV? Allowing withdrawals at, say, 30%, for a limited time would let people who have lost all trust and/or who just want their isk NOW get it, but at the same time it would generate a 33% profit for EBANK for every withdrawal made, because for each 3 isk withdrawn, claims with a value of 4 isk (if you liquidated) are erased. Its not an ideal solution, but, given that you refuse to do the right thing and liquidate, if you have any intention at all of eventually paying people back offering such an offer is a win-win for everyone. People who want out can get out (albeit with a tremendous haircut), and people who want to stay in will have to wait much less long for NAV to reach 100% of obligations again. Partial liquidations don't work. If EBANK offered this there would be a run and all the liquidity would be gone, therefore not allowing any return on the remaining assets to payback customers. So the liquidity is temporarily gone, not actually a major problem. If this is popular enough just mark down assets ~10% or so on the sell forums and they'll move nearly instantly, restoring liquidity; if the wedge between NAV/obligations and the liquidation haircut is wide enough it'll still increase NAV relative to obligations even if assets aren't sold for 100% "fair value."
Edward Gruberman	Posted - 2009.11.12 04:05:00 - [1132] Originally by: Mahke Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 03:15:05 "fair value." At which point was there mistaken identity for anyone involved with Ebank, and the word 'fair'? Ray's attitude has clearly shown he could care less what anyone thinks, or suggests. It's his way, (Run whats left of the funds into the ground, and then close up shop, all the while leading everyone on that they'll be able to get full liquidity within the next 10 years.) instead of the 'fair' way, (liquidating accounts for those who want them, at a HUGE haircut, and keeping those who want to stay.). At this point, I'll just mark my billion flushed away, and kick myself for originally supporting E-Fail. Boot to the head...
Amarr Citizen 155 Tleilex Developments Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.12 04:13:00 - [1133] Originally by: Edward Gruberman Originally by: Mahke Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 03:15:05 "fair value." At which point was there mistaken identity for anyone involved with Ebank, and the word 'fair'? Ray's attitude has clearly shown he could care less what anyone thinks, or suggests. It's his way, (Run whats left of the funds into the ground, and then close up shop, all the while leading everyone on that they'll be able to get full liquidity within the next 10 years.) instead of the 'fair' way, (liquidating accounts for those who want them, at a HUGE haircut, and keeping those who want to stay.). At this point, I'll just mark my billion flushed away, and kick myself for originally supporting E-Fail. If you would like to officially close your account and donate your remaining balance to the EBANK recovery project please submit a support ticket or contact one of our EBANK staff directly. We would be more than happy to honor your request. To some of you, /finger I know how much some of you like that. To the rest, G'night. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.12 04:40:00 - [1134] Originally by: Edward Gruberman Originally by: Mahke Edited by: Mahke on 12/11/2009 03:15:05 "fair value." At which point was there mistaken identity for anyone involved with Ebank, and the word 'fair'? Ray's attitude has clearly shown he could care less what anyone thinks, or suggests. It's his way, (Run whats left of the funds into the ground, and then close up shop, all the while leading everyone on that they'll be able to get full liquidity within the next 10 years.) instead of the 'fair' way, (liquidating accounts for those who want them, at a HUGE haircut, and keeping those who want to stay.). At this point, I'll just mark my billion flushed away, and kick myself for originally supporting E-Fail. Completely misunderstood me. What I meant by "fair value" was that about anything in eve can be liquidated that day by asking about 10% less for it than you would if you were being patient about selling it . Which means if the gap between proportion return offered to people who want to liquidate immediately was sufficiently below current NAV as a proportion of obligations, liquidity constraints cease to be a problem since they could firesale stuff to keep up with withdrawal demands while still increasing the NAV/obligations ratio (effectively making profit) for those choosing to stay with them.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.12 05:33:00 - [1135] Much of what is being discussed is contained within the overdue announcement, so I'll refrain from commenting (it would just be sarcastic anyway, right?) until the various bits and bobs that need to be in place for it to be posted are (in place). /me licks the peanut butter off AC's finger. Hmm, salty... Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.12 08:26:00 - [1136] Quote: Ray's attitude has clearly shown he could care less what anyone thinks, or suggests. Ray's attitude is of someone who wants to be let work in peace (it's not like anyone is in position to change his strategy anyway), so he scrolls flies off with those sarcastic answers of him. Maybe I should learn from him instead of being an idiot and waste days to explain the obvious to people who don't care but to flame and troll regardless of the underlying events. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Nano Pope	Posted - 2009.11.12 11:07:00 - [1137] Ray just needs to make his bloody post, but just for fun let's predict the offer from the clues so far: Get a loan with 110% collateral BUT WAIT! We have A 30% OFF SALE thanks to the isk we're holding hostage. BUT WAIT! YOU only NEED 80% collateral! AMAZING! BUT WAIT! WHAT WILL HAPPEN? Well you can immediately default for 20% of your isk value but remember - defaulting on a loan means forfeiting any and all isk you had in the bank! SO! We can offer a CASHOUT of 20%! All without making it look like we're offering a CASHOUT of 20%! ONLY 3 WEEKS UNTIL THE OFFER EXPIRES, DON'T DELAY!
Barlie Chown	Posted - 2009.11.12 13:49:00 - [1138] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Ray's attitude has clearly shown he could care less what anyone thinks, or suggests. Ray's attitude is of someone who wants to be let work in peace (it's not like anyone is in position to change his strategy anyway), so he scrolls flies off with those sarcastic answers of him. Maybe I should learn from him instead of being an idiot and waste days to explain the obvious to people who don't care but to flame and troll regardless of the underlying events. Last I checked the forums where voluntary and not some part of the login process for the game. If he truly wants to be 'left alone' or to 'work in peace' he could obviously stop checking the forums and taking the time to write zingers I'd expect to hear in an elementary school playground. I've lurked these forums for nearly 3 years now and his recent attitude is childish and taunting.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.12 15:06:00 - [1139] It's hardly recent. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.12 15:15:00 - [1140] Originally by: Ray McCormack Much of what is being discussed is contained within the overdue announcement, so I'll refrain from commenting (it would just be sarcastic anyway, right?) until the various bits and bobs that need to be in place for it to be posted are (in place). /me licks the peanut butter off AC's finger. Hmm, salty... OMFG its not peanut butter. If you go to bed with an itchy ass; you wake up with smelly and salty tasting fingers
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.12 15:17:00 - [1141] Upon further consideration, I've gone back to the conclusion that EBank is definitely going scam. The overcollateralized loans are most likely an attempt to sucker more ISK out of an Eve community that is not dumb enough to deposit.
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.11.12 16:27:00 - [1142] Originally by: Tiberizzle Upon further consideration, I've gone back to the conclusion that EBank is definitely going scam. LOL welcome to the club. Althoug, EBANK isnt "going" scam now. EBANK has been a giant scam since day 1.
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.12 16:52:00 - [1143] Originally by: Reilly Duvolle LOL welcome to the club. Althoug, EBANK isnt "going" scam now. EBANK has been a giant scam since day 1. If not even earlier.... --------
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.12 17:12:00 - [1144] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Ray McCormack Much of what is being discussed is contained within the overdue announcement, so I'll refrain from commenting (it would just be sarcastic anyway, right?) until the various bits and bobs that need to be in place for it to be posted are (in place). /me licks the peanut butter off AC's finger. Hmm, salty... OMFG its not peanut butter. If you go to bed with an itchy ass; you wake up with smelly and salty tasting fingers OK, Ji Sama, tell me how my ass taste!
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.12 17:18:00 - [1145] Originally by: Claire Voyant Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Ray McCormack Much of what is being discussed is contained within the overdue announcement, so I'll refrain from commenting (it would just be sarcastic anyway, right?) until the various bits and bobs that need to be in place for it to be posted are (in place). /me licks the peanut butter off AC's finger. Hmm, salty... OMFG its not peanut butter. If you go to bed with an itchy ass; you wake up with smelly and salty tasting fingers OK, Ji Sama, tell me how my ass taste! It tastes like peanut butter ffs l2p nab!
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.13 03:32:00 - [1146] Originally by: Reilly Duvolle Originally by: Tiberizzle Upon further consideration, I've gone back to the conclusion that EBank is definitely going scam. LOL welcome to the club. Althoug, EBANK isnt "going" scam now. EBANK has been a giant scam since day 1. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, you know the old adage "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." However, upon some reflection it seems that mere stupidity is insufficient to adequately explain this stupidity.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.13 05:26:00 - [1147] Originally by: Tiberizzle However, upon some reflection it seems that mere stupidity is insufficient to adequately explain some of the recent proposals. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you can find some adequate words. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Black Dronza Globe Trotter Inc The Matari Consortium	Posted - 2009.11.13 11:10:00 - [1148] Hi Ray, There seems to be a lot of needless chat on this thread. I also submitted an eBank support quest to which I have had no reply. I assume that is becuase there is suppose to be an imminent announcment for good or bad. Is this announcment still due? Many thanks -bd- Always expect the unexpected and you will never be suprised.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.13 12:13:00 - [1149] Originally by: Black Dronza Is this announcment still due? Yes. There are some technical change requirements that are holding the announcement back now. I'm aiming to have those changes in place by the end of the weekend. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.11.13 12:48:00 - [1150] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Black Dronza Is this announcment still due? Yes. There are some technical change requirements that are holding the announcement back now. I'm aiming to have those changes in place by the end of the weekend. LOL yeah I am sure some "technical change requirements" is what holds you back. /Me grabs popcorn to watch what fairytales is served next.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:16:00 - [1151] Reilly, you're so cool, sign my breast. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:20:00 - [1152] Originally by: Ray McCormack Reilly, you're so cool, sign my breast. Altough I am sure you have very well devloped manboobs, I wouldnt even dream about it
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:23:00 - [1153] This thread is now about my manboobs and Reilly's dreams about them. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:32:00 - [1154] Originally by: Ray McCormack This thread is now about my manboobs and Reilly's dreams about them. Or we could discuss basic comprehension of the english language
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:35:00 - [1155] Originally by: Reilly Duvolle Or we could discuss basic comprehension of the english language You're so cute when you're annoyed, ravish me now Reilly! Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.13 14:47:00 - [1156] Originally by: Ray McCormack This thread is now about my manboobs and Reilly's dreams about them. Although first instinct may be to blame Ray's manboobs for the decline of ebank, it's important to consider that these are in fact a symptom, not the cause, of the current dilemma. Ray's manboobs are in fact a result of the over supplied pancake and waffle markets, which banks naturally consume the surplus. This, combined with the declining demand for maple syrup, has put terrible economic strain on the bank, adding a lot of non-producing assets. I have an inside source that suggests Ricdic not only made off with hundreds of billions of isk. He also stole all the execise equipment. Folks, I have no concrete evidence, but I sense a conspiracy brewing in MD. One which will could wreck havoc on the secondary markets, while secret backroom brokers get rich on the manipulated price of dietary supplements. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.13 16:41:00 - [1157] Ray's manrack: your ISK at work!
chris4	Posted - 2009.11.15 23:33:00 - [1158] Hmm Ray, Could you care to explain some of this... Insider trading maybe? Deposits Total Deposits: 10,058,135,342,354.40 Total Deposits last 7 days: 22,669,939,633.10 Total Deposits last 14 days: 29,338,703,268.42 Total Deposits last 30 days: 45,556,303,286.38 Withdrawals Total Withdrawals: 6,808,574,550,040.00 Total Withdrawals last 7 days: 11,363,984,292.12 Total Withdrawals last 14 days: 14,519,591,235.57 Total Withdrawals last 30 days: 24,282,988,299.92 Stats page
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.16 00:05:00 - [1159] Edited by: Tiberizzle on 16/11/2009 00:09:25 Originally by: www.eve-bank.net Firefox can't find the server at www.eve-bank.net. Originally by: www.eve-bank.com Description: HTTP 404. The resource you are looking for (or one of its dependencies) could have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. Please review the following URL and make sure that it is spelled correctly. Requested Url: /About/Stats.aspx I think that's been explained sufficiently now...
Quince Dupree Gallente H A V O C Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.11.16 03:17:00 - [1160] Originally by: Barlie Chown Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Ray's attitude has clearly shown he could care less what anyone thinks, or suggests. Ray's attitude is of someone who wants to be let work in peace (it's not like anyone is in position to change his strategy anyway), so he scrolls flies off with those sarcastic answers of him. Maybe I should learn from him instead of being an idiot and waste days to explain the obvious to people who don't care but to flame and troll regardless of the underlying events. Last I checked the forums where voluntary and not some part of the login process for the game. If he truly wants to be 'left alone' or to 'work in peace' he could obviously stop checking the forums and taking the time to write zingers I'd expect to hear in an elementary school playground. I've lurked these forums for nearly 3 years now and his recent attitude is childish and taunting. heh Ray's a rich mutta fuker
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.16 05:25:00 - [1161] Originally by: chris4 Hmm Ray, Could you care to explain some of this... Insider trading maybe? I would, but what's the question? Originally by: Tiberizzle I think that's been explained sufficiently now... Works for me. Your DNS being fubar or the site temporarily going down isn't exactly evidence if us shutting up shop. Originally by: Quince Dupree heh Ray's a rich mutta fuker Yes I am. I'm a rich mother whatsisname with attitude. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.16 11:58:00 - [1162] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: chris4 Hmm Ray, Could you care to explain some of this... Insider trading maybe? I would, but what's the question? I guess his question is how any withdrawals could take place during the last 30 days when all customers' ISK have been frozen for quite some time now. I always expected this page to be updated automatically based on EBANK database and API data (and the lack of interest payments shows up correctly), otherwise the obvious explanation would be that it's outdated. Now it looks as if some insiders are actively depositing & withdrawing ISK from EBANK, which frankly should not be the case (deposits > withdrawals for the last 30 days, so it's not such a big issue; but if these transactions are short-term capital injections by employees, I would rather like to seem them classed as injections/withdrawal of equity than as debt). " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:01:00 - [1163] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton I guess his question is how any withdrawals could take place during the last 30 days when all customers' ISK have been frozen for quite some time now. Believe it or not people are still depositing ISK with us despite our status. Athre runs through the withdrawal list every week or so and actions withdrawals for people that deposited ISK after the freeze. That is what you are seeing in those figures. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:13:00 - [1164] Originally by: Ray McCormack Believe it or not people are still depositing ISK with us despite our status.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:16:00 - [1165] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Ray McCormack Believe it or not people are still depositing ISK with us despite our status. Here's an interesting fact: Despite me, personally, sending an EVEMail out to every single damn customer telling them not to deposit ISK to Ricdic, people were still depositing.
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:21:00 - [1166] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Ray McCormack Believe it or not people are still depositing ISK with us despite our status. Here's an interesting fact: Despite me, personally, sending an EVEMail out to every single damn customer telling them not to deposit ISK to Ricdic, people were still depositing. To each their own and i am not a fan of trolling so not going to say what is good or not about ebank but it really astounds me people still are depositing.Well with that in mind the perception that once ebank unfreezes isk the bank goes down immediatly would then be a wrong judgement allthough quite honestly that is how i felt about it too. Interesting indeed
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.16 16:31:00 - [1167] People expected an eruption of insolvency once the Ricdic scam landed. Surprisingly, while there was a wave of withdrawls much of the isk stayed put. My takeaway is that either there's a lot of confidence remaining the bank that remains mostly silent on these forums, and/or there's a lot of isk deposited in the bank belonging to inactive players. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.16 17:16:00 - [1168] My theory, hardly a radical one, is that many depositors get as far as the flashy website and nifty coding, and then fill in the rest with conceptions of real-life banks. I'm sure most of them still believe the "recovery from a single-person betrayal" story, that some EBank members continue to sell, despite the evidence of institution-wide negligence and incompetence that we got to see on this forum. That's why there will always be room for at least one bank in Eve...because people simply don't bother to understand how weak these institutions really are. Not that I can blame them, however, as this is only a game.
Bluebeard Minmatar LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:57:00 - [1169] Originally by: flakeys To each their own and i am not a fan of trolling so not going to say what is good or not about ebank but it really astounds me people still are depositing.Well with that in mind the perception that once ebank unfreezes isk the bank goes down immediatly would then be a wrong judgement allthough quite honestly that is how i felt about it too. Interesting indeed You may find it interesting to know, that in order to pay off a loan, you have to deposit isk into your account and when it has registered, then move it to the loan account. I recently paid off a large loan that I had taken out after the freeze, so some of that movement will be mine.
Cordin Hamir	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:43:00 - [1170] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Black Dronza Is this announcment still due? Yes. There are some technical change requirements that are holding the announcement back now. I'm aiming to have those changes in place by the end of the weekend. When will you be announcing the next new, new time for the announcement? Very difficult to plan my disappointment if i do not know when the next deadline has passed. I have been one of the silent majority so far waiting to see and giving you the benefit of the doubt but this latest series of fiasco failed announcements is just getting silly.
Jingleboobs McGee	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:47:00 - [1171] Originally by: Cordin Hamir Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Black Dronza Is this announcment still due? Yes. There are some technical change requirements that are holding the announcement back now. I'm aiming to have those changes in place by the end of the weekend. When will you be announcing the next new, new time for the announcement? Very difficult to plan my disappointment if i do not know when the next deadline has passed. I have been one of the silent majority so far waiting to see and giving you the benefit of the doubt but this latest series of fiasco failed announcements is just getting silly. Quick! Someone better backup the database!
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:08:00 - [1172] I am expecting another stall mail from Ray any time know.
Dzil Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:10:00 - [1173] Edited by: Dzil on 16/11/2009 21:15:34 25m to the best haiku regarding ebank's 15day late miss of their deadline to announce stuff. Contest will continue until ebank actually makes an announcement. Yes, this could take longer than the BIG titan lottery. Edit: also, page 40 snipe. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Orexis Kirhal Amarr Red Sky Morning	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:30:00 - [1174] bare vault and hands red hope clings to masts of sunk ships wait for the bad news
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.16 22:53:00 - [1175] announcement coming and duke nukem forever with same release date
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2009.11.16 23:01:00 - [1176] Funds froze in Summer Fall passes to Winter, with No news of a thaw. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.16 23:01:00 - [1177] board of directors: ~~"we stole all of your money!"~~ "announcement to come!"
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.16 23:27:00 - [1178] Dumb to deposit Interest greater than profit Balance is worthless
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.16 23:39:00 - [1179] Edited by: Tiberizzle on 16/11/2009 23:43:46 Buried in sandbox Little plastic shovel digs Finds feline faeces
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.16 23:51:00 - [1180] I like to touch. Private, places i do. My momma, helps me! Vote Z0D For CSM
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.17 01:48:00 - [1181] Money Dissapears Another One Bites The Dust Banks are just foolish
Catarrh Ague	Posted - 2009.11.17 03:03:00 - [1182] Ray plays with his boobs Both chest-borne and on forums ISK is all his now
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.17 03:33:00 - [1183] Beauty within the scam did Manalapan, no complains will eBank try announcing? _+_ "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " EVEwatch Sidebar soon
Jerry Richards	Posted - 2009.11.17 04:58:00 - [1184] It's the time of year When the world falls apart And all children smile. -JR
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.17 05:43:00 - [1185] went to rest'rant steak was late, told the waiter to bring my steak cold Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Bruno George	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:18:00 - [1186] Ray, La Vista Scam scam with their bank our isk yay please die ingame now
bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:42:00 - [1187] Never invested ISK spended all learning da twist watching you cuting your wrist ( ingame )
Dzil Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:52:00 - [1188] Dawn comes from the east Like yesterday, but we're one Day closer to death. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Cheeba Don Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:56:00 - [1189] This be first haiku Terrible indeed I fear better next time yes. --------- oOk!
TraderAlt 3104989531	Posted - 2009.11.17 17:43:00 - [1190] this haiku, like ebank fails.
Roguehalo	Posted - 2009.11.17 18:33:00 - [1191] haiku don't give isk haiku failing all the time just like poor ebank
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.17 19:02:00 - [1192] Edited by: RAW23 on 17/11/2009 19:03:11 EBank was early Or I was a latecomer Isk still in wallet Edit - Nice idea Dzil! Where did you get it? If you're interested we could team up and fund one of these a week.
Dzil Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.17 20:23:00 - [1193] Originally by: RAW23 Edited by: RAW23 on 17/11/2009 19:11:55 Edited by: RAW23 on 17/11/2009 19:11:28 Edited by: RAW23 on 17/11/2009 19:03:11 EBank was early Or I was a latecomer Isk still in wallet Edit - Nice idea Dzil! Where did you get it? If you're interested we could team up and fund one of these a week. Edit 2 - On topic Haiku Late is a concept Ephemeral like bank debt Blossom falls in road Original credit Belongs to one "DragonRiderTao": Safer than Ebank Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Amarr Citizen 155 Amsen Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.17 20:31:00 - [1194] Originally by: Dzil Original credit Belongs to one "DragonRiderTao": Safer than Ebank It's going to be funny when one day you guys find out who DRT really is. Gives me a chuckle. Titan BPC Auction Thread
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation	Posted - 2009.11.17 20:32:00 - [1195] Originally by: Dzil Original credit Belongs to one "DragonRiderTao": Safer than Ebank Five syllables here Seven syllables go here Rinse, repeat first line ?
Ladani	Posted - 2009.11.18 07:36:00 - [1196] Edited by: Ladani on 18/11/2009 07:38:40 Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Ray wanted me to pass on a message to concerned individuals. /finger Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 Originally by: Solisk Originally by: Derek Chambers I'm laughing at everyone who put their isk in the hands of internet strangers and expected it to be taken care of. wow. I'm laughing at people who take their internet monies so seriously that they cannot even trust someone from the internets with it. I'm laughing with Solisk and i'm laughing with Derek
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.18 13:18:00 - [1197] Are you allowed to make more then one entry? Or is it one per customer?
Dzil Caldari Waffle Investment Fund	Posted - 2009.11.18 14:25:00 - [1198] Originally by: Clementina Are you allowed to make more then one entry? Or is it one per customer? Make many entries Only one can be winner Do not try too hard. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Sir Fourhead Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.18 15:04:00 - [1199] Fear not the date now You get your iskies very soon Just kidding haha
Johnny Ringo Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:49:00 - [1200] All my isk is gone. I put my faith in EBANK. Crap. There is no God.
DragonRiderTao	Posted - 2009.11.18 22:13:00 - [1201] A maladroit lusk. Watch brisk irascible crowds. Larder barren ruin. How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine.
Clementina Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.18 22:15:00 - [1202] First, You steal the isk Then, Mock the robbed on forums Banker's Business Plan
RothimusPrime	Posted - 2009.11.18 23:21:00 - [1203] DBANK robbed me blind. EBANK is not far behind. Banks in EVE fail...waffles!
Catarrh Ague	Posted - 2009.11.19 02:22:00 - [1204] EBANK plan coming October or November But year not mentioned
Minmat Sebtin	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:10:00 - [1205] Ebank like Molle, Didn't want deadline anyway, M.D. drowns in tears.
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.19 04:24:00 - [1206] Please learn what a haiku is before even thinking about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku Anything without caesura, cut or kire is not a good haiku and should not qualify for the best haiku. _+_ "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " EVEwatch Sidebar soon
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:26:00 - [1207] not care if late by more years than brad in tibet report out when done Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Amarr Citizen 155 Amsen Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:29:00 - [1208] What is slash finger Immature and aggressive Stirring up the pot Titan BPC Auction Thread
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:33:00 - [1209] Shakes fist as a hint Bedtime now, but keep em coming I lost count there oops
Neo Gabriel Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:42:00 - [1210] You guys all got scammed and you will never see your isk back.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.19 05:56:00 - [1211] Just like my ex-wife, EBANK took all my money, and you both lost most of it!
Julius Rigel	Posted - 2009.11.19 06:21:00 - [1212] Oh, you know I can't Resist a good haiku thread Hi Ray and LV!
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.11.19 08:30:00 - [1213] Originally by: Julius Rigel Hi Ray and LV! Hi!
Nano Pope	Posted - 2009.11.19 12:21:00 - [1214] derailing with rhyme pleasantly melodious I remain unfulfilled
Dzil Caldari Waffle Investment Fund	Posted - 2009.11.19 14:28:00 - [1215] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Please learn what a haiku is before even thinking about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku Anything without caesura, cut or kire is not a good haiku and should not qualify for the best haiku. Wikipedia Also contains articles on humility. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.19 15:42:00 - [1216] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Please learn what a haiku is before even thinking about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku Anything without caesura, cut or kire is not a good haiku and should not qualify for the best haiku. Any moron can write haikus. Just stop at the seventeenth sylab
K'uata Sayus	Posted - 2009.11.19 17:08:00 - [1217] next anouncement due Oct. 15 - Nov. 1 Steamboat mouth, rowboat ass. EVERYONE SEEMS NORMAL UNTIL YOU GET TO KNOW THEM.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.11.19 17:11:00 - [1218] So much hate, man! Why can't we just be friends? Only Ray bites.
Avandir Correus	Posted - 2009.11.20 14:54:00 - [1219] Ebank Haiku thread Makes me happy while at work Candlejack...oh shi-
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.20 15:13:00 - [1220] So any word on when the next deadline for THE BIG ANNOUNCEMENT is?
Dzil Caldari Waffle Investment Fund	Posted - 2009.11.20 15:23:00 - [1221] Originally by: Kalrand So any word on when the next deadline for THE BIG ANNOUNCEMENT is? Twenty-five million Is giant prize fund, I know; But be patient, please. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
RothimusPrime	Posted - 2009.11.20 15:24:00 - [1222] Originally by: Kalrand So any word on when the next deadline for THE BIG ANNOUNCEMENT is? The next announcement? Haikus more interesting You can keep hoping
Vargrin Terroth	Posted - 2009.11.20 16:31:00 - [1223] Announcement someday So big it is so very slow Would you hold your breath?
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.20 16:53:00 - [1224] The big announcement! Your isk was stolen. It is here for you to see! Ray is trolling you. Read between the lines.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.20 19:14:00 - [1225] I dislike haiku. Eve banks We see them fall Try to get up again Lacking their old liquidity Fail more Ebank will not rise today or Show a healthy profit, ever
Mahke Aeon Of Strife	Posted - 2009.11.20 20:40:00 - [1226] thread blooms in winter EVE BANK update still delayed winter turns to spring
Drab Cane Carbenadium Industries	Posted - 2009.11.21 00:52:00 - [1227] Dominion looms, no EBank news. Will settle gut with Turkey Day food. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.21 02:01:00 - [1228] Be careful or you will get this epic thread locked.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.21 05:23:00 - [1229] Give me my money before the thread is locked. Mine was the best. None of you mentioned your evil ex-wives. Gimme, gimme, gimme.
Rakshasr	Posted - 2009.11.21 11:53:00 - [1230] Hey maybe you should look for advice from these guys.. http://www.lehman.com They certanly know what they were doing...
Dzil Caldari Waffle Investment Fund	Posted - 2009.11.23 14:45:00 - [1231] Announcement was made Winner will be decided Sometime tomorrow. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Nano Pope	Posted - 2009.11.23 16:21:00 - [1232] There was once an EvEbanker in Stain Who believed all his ISK would remain But the bankers hauled ass They ran off with the cash And the cleanup is really a pain
Dzil Caldari SafeHouse Investments of Tautology	Posted - 2009.11.24 17:26:00 - [1233] Will send prize today No API Requirement! You are all winners. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Xan Zavier Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2010.02.17 23:34:00 - [1234] At this point, my opinion is probably not worth much to anyone here, but I am sticking with E-Bank through this, and hope to see it succeed. I have an outstanding loan (with collateral) that I will continue to pay back. If there is no E-Bank left when I am through paying back the loan, at least I will have made good on my word. With my limited visibility into E-bank, I believe you are making the right decision, although tough and maybe eventually irrecoverable. The lack of government controls offers unique challenges to a bank running in EVE, something that adds to the excitement of the game itself. Sure, we could get scammed, but that's the point of the game. Of all the similar IRL situations that banks have dealt with in history, a freeze probably is in the best interest of everyone. If it postpones an eventual dissolution, then oh well, the most investors can lose is some virtual currency (and time) in a game where piracy is as legitimate as running a business.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.21 11:40:00 - [1235] Edited by: RAW23 on 21/03/2010 11:43:42 Edited by: RAW23 on 21/03/2010 11:40:03 So, now that the other thread has been locked at the Chairman of EBANK's request, I assume this is the thread through which customers and the public will be able to contact EBANK. Sensible move to consolidate things into one thread. As an EBANK customer I would like to ask two questions: Quote: Liquidation Methods * EBANK has agreed to offer account holders access to limited liquidation withdrawals. ISK will become available for withdrawals once per month as profit above an asset valuation of 700b becomes available. The value of the actual withdrawal will be established as the percentage difference between our estimated NAV and known liabilities. A liquidation fee of 5% will be levied against all such withdrawals. * We advise that these NAV estimations are not entirely accurate, and could be wrong either way by as much as 10%, thus you could be loosing up to 15% by taking this option. * We will advise when these withdrawals will be allowed each month, and withdrawals will be issued on a first-come, first-served basis. Once all available capital above the 700b limit is liquidated, any remaining withdrawals will be cancelled and you will have to wait until the next month to attempt a liquidation withdrawal. Will such withdrawals be made available this month? And will BLEEP be implemented in time for the first batch of withdrawals? /hug
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.03.21 13:26:00 - [1236] Shame, poor baby can't read too well. Here, let me spell it out for you with quotes from previous replies answering your same inane questions: Originally by: RAW23 Will such withdrawals be made available this month? Originally by: Ray McCormack We will advise when these withdrawals will be allowed each month Originally by: RAW23 And will BLEEP be implemented in time for the first batch of withdrawals? Originally by: Ray McCormack BLEEP will be implemented when it becomes a requirement for people to withdraw or liquidate their ISK, before that my time is better spent elsewhere. Titan BPC For Sale \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.21 13:39:00 - [1237] Originally by: Ray McCormack Shame, poor baby can't read too well. Here, let me spell it out for you with quotes from previous replies answering your same inane questions: Originally by: RAW23 Will such withdrawals be made available this month? Originally by: Ray McCormack We will advise when these withdrawals will be allowed each month Originally by: RAW23 And will BLEEP be implemented in time for the first batch of withdrawals? Originally by: Ray McCormack BLEEP will be implemented when it becomes a requirement for people to withdraw or liquidate their ISK, before that my time is better spent elsewhere. I can read fine thanks. My question wasn't when this month but if this month?
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.03.21 14:15:00 - [1238] Originally by: RAW23 My question wasn't when this month but if this month? And what part of the answer don't you understand? If and when, we will announce it. Capiche? Titan BPC For Sale \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.21 14:34:00 - [1239] Edited by: RAW23 on 21/03/2010 14:34:14 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: RAW23 My question wasn't when this month but if this month? And what part of the answer don't you understand? If and when, we will announce it. Capiche? Ah - ok. So you are no longer following what you said in the post I quoted? It's now a case of you may allow withdrawals when assets climb above 700bil, rather than you will allow withdrawals as you promised previously. Thanks. I understand fully now. I hope you can see why I was somewhat confused though as you did say you were going to be doing one thing but are now not going to be following through with that plan and you hadn't made any announcement declaring the change. Might I suggest you edit the quoted post, so that it accurately reflects your new policy, to read (words to be removed are underlined, suggested additions appear bolded in square brackets): Liquidation Methods * EBANK has agreed to offer account holders access to limited liquidation withdrawals. ISK will [change to "may"] become available for withdrawals once per month as profit above an asset valuation of 700b becomes available. The value of the actual withdrawal will be established as the percentage difference between our estimated NAV and known liabilities. A liquidation fee of 5% will be levied against all such withdrawals. * We advise that these NAV estimations are not entirely accurate, and could be wrong either way by as much as 10%, thus you could be loosing up to 15% by taking this option. * We will advise [insert "if and"] when these withdrawals will be allowed each month, and withdrawals will be issued on a first-come, first-served basis. Once all available capital above the 700b limit is liquidated, any remaining withdrawals will be cancelled and you will have to wait until the next month to attempt a liquidation withdrawal [insert "if withdrawals are permitted in the next month"].
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.03.21 14:43:00 - [1240] That doesn't even make sense. I'm done wasting my time with you. Titan BPC For Sale \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.21 14:46:00 - [1241] Originally by: Ray McCormack That doesn't even make sense. I'm done wasting my time with you. It makes perfect sense Ray. You had previously said that when assets went above 700bil you would (without any conditionals to qualify the statement) allow withdrawals. You are now saying that you may allow withdrawals. Saying you will do something differs from saying you might do something. It's a pretty basic concept and I'm surprised you can't understand it.
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.03.21 14:52:00 - [1242] Originally by: RAW23 If so, could you clarify under what circumstances profit will become available? When you stop being such a pedant. You're picking apart word semantics now, how is any of this constructive? I've answered your lame ****ing questions now, get over yourself. Titan BPC For Sale \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve	Posted - 2010.03.21 14:55:00 - [1243] OMG RAY SAID USED THE F WORD!
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.03.21 14:57:00 - [1244] Originally by: Ray McCormack I've answered your lame ***ing questions now, get over yourself. You haven't answered anything. All you've done is dodged questions with vague answers. If anyone else in EVE did what you are doing they would be listed as a scammer by damn near every player. You have absolutely no idea what you are doing and are enjoying holding everyones ISK hostage with extreme conditions on the premise that they might* get it back someday. EBank would be better off either closing down or getting someone who knows what they are doing to run it.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.03.21 15:08:00 - [1245] Edited by: RAW23 on 21/03/2010 15:09:12 Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: RAW23 If so, could you clarify under what circumstances profit will become available? When you stop being such a pedant. You're picking apart word semantics now, how is any of this constructive? I've answered your lame **ing questions now, get over yourself. I'm not trying to be pedantic. I'm just trying to understand what you mean by your statements, what you are committed to doing and what you might do but are not committed to doing. The fact that you can make multiple insulting posts whenever I ask something but never actually attempt to answer the question is pretty annoying. You could save both of us a lot of time if you put more effort into trying to communicate and less effort into propping up your image of being a self-declared "**" and some kind of internet spaceships hard man. So, to try one more time, did I get it right in my last post? Are withdrawals conditional not just on NAV but on availability? And if so, what does this mean? The reason I think this is an important question is because if you say availability rather than NAV is the final test, you could also say that none of the money will become available any time soon because it is being reinvested in various projects. Which would be a fair enough answer. But I think some sort of answer is in order because at least some people (myself included and, from reading the threads, a good few others) have understood the initial promise of withdrawals as being based more fundamentally on NAV levels rather than operational decisions within the business. If availability is the main test then that could mean that even if NAV stays above 700bil for a year or more the excess might never become available for withdrawal because you have plans for using it. As I've said, this isn't an unreasonable position but it would be nice to know if it is actually the position.
SetrakDark DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.03.21 15:11:00 - [1246] Originally by: Breaker77 EBank would be better off either closing down or getting someone who knows what they are doing to run it. I don't think they'd let Ray close it down even if he wanted to, and they definitely won't bring someone else on who would (and it's what any sensible manager would do). So the question is how long Ray will grind away at a pointless task for vainglorious wannabe internet spaceship bankers who can't even manage their own disastrous failure, but don't have the common sense and decency to close it down.
paulg Gallente Star High Industries and Technology	Posted - 2010.03.21 15:19:00 - [1247] I wish people would get off Ray McCormack's and other ebank staff backs They are trying to do they best. I would only guess at how many hours they have spent sorting this mess out. As i have some investment in ebank I like to say "" THANK YOU "" and please keep up the good work you are trying to do..........
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.03.21 15:22:00 - [1248] Originally by: paulg I wish people would get off Ray McCormack's and other ebank staff backs They are trying to do they best. I would only guess at how many hours they have spent sorting this mess out. As i have some investment in ebank I like to say "" THANK YOU "" and please keep up the good work you are trying to do.......... There is already a thread for your kind
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.03.21 15:28:00 - [1249] Originally by: RAW23 I'm just trying to understand what you mean by your statements I'm not your kindergarten teacher, understand it on your time like the rest of the big boys. And Breaker77, suck it man. Titan BPC For Sale \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah

CCP Navigator C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.21 15:53:00 - [1250] This thread is now degenerating into senseless trolling. Thread will be locked and EBANK reps can create a new thread when there is something to announce. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online


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Statement from the Board

Statement from the Board

Your isk was stolen.

Ray is trolling you.