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Ivanna Nuke Daralux	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:18:00 - [361] Most cowbell has sunken to the eastern ribbon.
Lord Apocrypha	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:27:00 - [362] Close shop and give the isk back to those who own it. You guys dont deserve to say open. A full 18+ months of lies in how many posts? Claiming you were elite. Now "f"bank claims its in the peoples interest for them to keep their money. If you think you can make more isk over the next year than the real owner you are sadly mistaken. This from group that, "probably never made a cent since day 1". Its another grab for cash. A hope that more of the investors may not be playing eve in a years time. If you add up all the losses, add up all the interest ever payed out by this "bank" it still doesn't add up to the sum of the total isk that was given to them by the players. Calling a duck a duck.
Super Whopper I can Has Cheeseburger	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:40:00 - [363] Originally by: Kitchie Although I admire Ray's honesty and in the real world, that would have needed to be done, I can't help wondering whether it would have been better to keep the deficit under wraps. No causing panic, no mass withdrawals and quietly work in the background to rebuild the capital/funds. Nobody need ever have known unless something else caused a run on the bank..... Sorry for the bitterness but the so called 'elite' can't help themselves but disappoint these forums with their arrogance and failures. Well done to them. I didn't mean to take my bitterness out on you, sorry about that.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:31:00 - [364] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: Kalrand Whats hilarious to me is now its the three Goons that hang out in here that are about the only serious market people that haven't run off with truck loads of their investors' isk recently. Take your time... My investors got paid. And I even warned of Ebank. Here's where. MD didn't fund me, the goons did. Yes Kal, but paying back corpmates or alliance mates is different from paying back investors who's only relationship with you is their trust and investment. Not paying back your alliance mates could cost you your place in a major alliance. Not paying back some guy in MD would likely be seen by your peer group as laughable. With audits, you could prove that money was borrowed, isk was generated, and money was paid back. It proves you have the capabilities to generate isk. But it brings you no closer to being trustworthy in the eyes of the regular here. To be fair, that may not be such a bad thing. More and more, we see the trust laid out here betrayed because there's no real repricussions for defaulting a loan. I'm beginning to feel more and more only 0.0 territory holding alliances can underwrite a loan without collateral, where a creditor can extract a real consequence should financial obligations not be met. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Shoten Kishi	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:40:00 - [365] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Jin Nib Originally by: Kalrand To be fair, that may not be such a bad thing. More and more, we see the trust laid out here betrayed because there's no real repricussions for defaulting a loan. I'm beginning to feel more and more only 0.0 territory holding alliances can underwrite a loan without collateral, where a creditor can extract a real consequence should financial obligations not be met. Assuming you have the financial means to hire a merc corp, or military force within your corp / alliance to extract said 'consequence', and yes of course lets not forget they have to be willing to go and fight to get back at the individuals who pulled a fast one on you. What about the individual investor who is not inside of a large 0.0 alliance, or doesn't go to 0.0 period, how would this benefit them at all?
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:55:00 - [366] Quote: Assuming you have the financial means to hire a merc corp, or military force within your corp / alliance to extract said 'consequence', and yes of course lets not forget they have to be willing to go and fight to get back at the individuals who pulled a fast one on you. What about the individual investor who is not inside of a large 0.0 alliance, or doesn't go to 0.0 period, how would this benefit them at all? If you don't have the financial means to go after your loans, you are loaning out too much money. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:57:00 - [367] Originally by: Dzil Yes Kal, but paying back corpmates or alliance mates is different from paying back investors who's only relationship with you is their trust and investment. Not paying back your alliance mates could cost you your place in a major alliance. Not paying back some guy in MD would likely be seen by your peer group as laughable. With audits, you could prove that money was borrowed, isk was generated, and money was paid back. It proves you have the capabilities to generate isk. But it brings you no closer to being trustworthy in the eyes of the regular here. To be fair, that may not be such a bad thing. More and more, we see the trust laid out here betrayed because there's no real repricussions for defaulting a loan. I'm beginning to feel more and more only 0.0 territory holding alliances can underwrite a loan without collateral, where a creditor can extract a real consequence should financial obligations not be met. I really don't think that without an in game mechanic to dissolve an alliance for an unpaid loan, that alliances will ever be able to borrow unsecured funds from anyone other than members and allies. If Goonswarm defaulted on a loan, are you going to hire mercs to take over Delve? Didn't think so... What a 0.0 alliance has, that Highsec lacks, is an entity that polices its members. An alliance can kick you out and pod you. An alliance can blow up your towers. An alliance can lock you out of the stations your stuff is in. An alliance can throw out a member corp that ****es it off enough. But who would police an alliance? No one. Which is just like individuals in empire. What that means, is that yea, it is different between corp and alliance mates. But don't think for a second that I personally knew even half of the people who loaned me isk. It's more than just an esprit de corps kind of thing, that's a reflection of the safety inherent in the transaction. Remember, Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:58:00 - [368] Originally by: Dzil Quote: Assuming you have the financial means to hire a merc corp, or military force within your corp / alliance to extract said 'consequence', and yes of course lets not forget they have to be willing to go and fight to get back at the individuals who pulled a fast one on you. What about the individual investor who is not inside of a large 0.0 alliance, or doesn't go to 0.0 period, how would this benefit them at all? If you don't have the financial means to go after your loans, you are loaning out too much money. It means you loaned money to someone you didn't have any recourse with. I would think the record for 100% collateralized loans in High Sec must be pretty good.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:00:00 - [369] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Rellik B00n business as usual tbh, and based on my reply in this thread I demand to be included in the "MD elitelist 2009." ITS INTERNET MONEY YOU FOOLS!!! If there ever was an elite, 80%+ have all been ionvolved with SCAMS or business failures in the last few months. Any who were ever on original EBANK board are now pretty much dead on here. Death to the MD elite, time for the little man!!!!! Good thing then that the MD forum was moved a while back otherwise it would be quite empty in here ....
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:04:00 - [370] Originally by: Kalrand Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys. true, its called world of warcraft. but what does that have to do with anything.
Remus Kurgan Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:26:00 - [371] Originally by: Betty Rhage Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Betty Rhage If I don't get a response, sure. I look forward to your information. On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that. Its nice to know my threat carried some weight and your willing to give some of the money back... but that is not good enough for me. Either contact me in game within 24 hours and give me back all of my initial principle, or I start talking about things I should not. OMG you're going to talk about fictional characters and their business dealings in an online video game!!! Seriously, you should really consider the value of a blackmail threat before issuing it. Ray, I wish you the best of luck saving our ISK from this mess. I think while everyone is blaming you and the bank, we really only have ourselves to blame for not demanding a more transparent system from the beginning. And, yes, I've lost money too.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:27:00 - [372] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Kalrand Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys. true, its called world of warcraft. but what does that have to do with anything. I think if anything, the empire, high sec, mine rocks for hours on end or trade in jita for 0.01 isk game is much more like WOW than the 0.0 everyone wants to kill you, hey lets blow their stuff up for no reason game.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:35:00 - [373] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Kalrand Goons are playing a different game than the rest of you guys. true, its called world of warcraft. but what does that have to do with anything. I think if anything, the empire, high sec, mine rocks for hours on end or trade in jita for 0.01 isk game is much more like WOW than the 0.0 everyone wants to kill you, hey lets blow their stuff up for no reason game. i once whent into low sec, i was scared ****less so i left, it was like the barrens.....
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:43:00 - [374] Quote: I think while everyone is blaming you and the bank, we really only have ourselves to blame for not demanding a more transparent system from the beginning As I quoted in a previous post, I asked (can't "demand" in a game tbh) for transparency, and all what I got is this Ricdic shirt... - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Saint Lazarus Spiorad ag fanaiocht	Posted - 2009.08.27 15:41:00 - [375] Still would have rathered left my isk in Ebank than taking it out to put in DBank..... Rather my ISK frozen than just out right gone ----------------- My EvE Comic
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:33:00 - [376] Back on topic: Quote: He was also responsible, along with board members, for over-extending credit to a long standing loan customer Who are those "board members"? Have they been destituted? Quote: Loan defaults will be revealed, and ruthlessly pursued. I am not seeing a rush to cover their debts, what's a timeframe to know who robbed your bank? It'd be useful if we could avoid doing business with those guys. I know one name, but that's it. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:47:00 - [377] Originally by: Mining Bunnz Originally by: Dranakolys So why are incompetent fools like Hexxx and Athre still involved?... As to Hexxx, the question that has to be asked is how much of this did he know or suspect prior to stepping down? This was his baby as much as it was Ricdic's. He was the founding chairman, and unlike others involved, has real world experience in this sort of stuff. Oversight and reporting that was this sloppy is a failure on his part, and the founding board members. People that came on later, or departed midstream due to an inability to change these practices, certainly dont benefit from this failure, but they also shouldn't be held to account as much as those original board members who put this shonky pony in front of the cart to start with. Hexxx is an IT consultant, I think. Consulting in the banking or insurance industries does not make him knowledgeable of either industry. You need to read what his posts don¦t say. It¦s an amusing experience. Regardless, it would take a week for any Director with any nous whatsoever to work out that EBank was a disaster waiting to happen. So, yes, Hexxx failed miserably - as did any Director who lasted more than a week. And they ought to be held accountable - but, judging from the way this thread is going, I doubt that any will suffer the consequences.
Dzil Caldari Halo Industries	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:20:00 - [378] Originally by: Varo Jan Regardless, it would take a week for any Director with any nous whatsoever to work out that EBank was a disaster waiting to happen. So, yes, Hexxx failed miserably - as did any Director who lasted more than a week. And they ought to be held accountable - but, judging from the way this thread is going, I doubt that any will suffer the consequences. Suffer what consequences? Did I miss where the customers of ebank have some recourse they are just avoiding leveraging out of the kindness of their hearts? I see one random alt threatening them with some "information", which due to the need to make public posts about it is likely little more than rubbish. Did you mean their effective ability to launch their own public offerings/bonds? I'm quite sure with their hands full with ebank, you'll see none anytime soon, at least not on any character you can tie to the directors here. Perhaps you'll hire a merc fleet to station camp their jita alts? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:35:00 - [379] Originally by: Saint Lazarus Still would have rathered left my isk in Ebank than taking it out to put in DBank..... Rather my ISK frozen than just out right gone I have a hunch the ISK WILL be gone in a few months. I really don't see them getting back from this tbh.
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:49:00 - [380] Originally by: Dariah Stardweller Originally by: Saint Lazarus Still would have rathered left my isk in Ebank than taking it out to put in DBank..... Rather my ISK frozen than just out right gone I have a hunch the ISK WILL be gone in a few months. I really don't see them getting back from this tbh. I am less skeptical about that. Ray had no need to admit what he admitted. If EBANK was/is a Ponzi there is likely enough assets remaining to sustain the system for quite awhile. The interest payments were a small part of the total and growth could have been sustained for a long time. My only issue with Ray is his choice to unilaterally decide to continue a venture that looks to have taken a 60% loss without consulting the investors. It might be difficult to liquidate but that could be handled through selling the assets to speculators and returning 30% of the deposits to each investor. Given the nature of markets a few of the bigger players could simply buy out the assets and potentially make a killing over time. - Lex
Lexander Morinex Caldari LDD Investments	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:53:00 - [381] Edited by: Lexander Morinex on 27/08/2009 17:53:38 Originally by: Varo Jan Hexxx is an IT consultant, I think. Consulting in the banking or insurance industries does not make him knowledgeable of either industry. You need to read what his posts don¦t say. It¦s an amusing experience. I personally like Hexxx. His posts were thoughtful and made me think. My only problem was the ideas tend to have a bit of dreamland quality to them. In the sense that EVE is just a game that makes sense. But as practical plans for business I am not so sure. At some point you have to run the numbers and have a bit of healthy skepticism about the integrity of your fellow EVE player. - Lex
Dranakolys Gallente Theurgy	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:06:00 - [382] Edited by: Dranakolys on 27/08/2009 18:10:17 Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Varo Jan Regardless, it would take a week for any Director with any nous whatsoever to work out that EBank was a disaster waiting to happen. So, yes, Hexxx failed miserably - as did any Director who lasted more than a week. And they ought to be held accountable - but, judging from the way this thread is going, I doubt that any will suffer the consequences. Suffer what consequences? Did I miss where the customers of ebank have some recourse they are just avoiding leveraging out of the kindness of their hearts? I see one random alt threatening them with some "information", which due to the need to make public posts about it is likely little more than rubbish. Did you mean their effective ability to launch their own public offerings/bonds? I'm quite sure with their hands full with ebank, you'll see none anytime soon, at least not on any character you can tie to the directors here. Perhaps you'll hire a merc fleet to station camp their jita alts? If you thought before you posted you would have realised that he is referring to consequences as far as they exist in MD (this needs a "duh"), as limited as they are. One part would be resigning/being fired from their positions. The other is the damage to their reputation and standing, which might actually matter to some of them (haha -- assuming their hands weren't in the jar all along). I just hope that THIS TIME it sinks into the collective minds of MD that EBank and the people who ran it into the ground, are neither trustworthy, secure or even good at what they do (unless you consider that to be running a Ponzi scheme, something they apparently did very well heh). I, of course, exclude Ray from this and I hope he doesn't get associated as part of the cause of this mess. Oh and the regular employees can hardly be blamed either. The board, however, sure as hell can.
Mitch Taylor Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:13:00 - [383] A long time ago a group of members from my corp were talking up e-bank. They had recently been approved for loans and were busy spending your isk. I have to admit personally I had never liked the idea of a bank in a virtual world, far to little consequence for potential ill actions. The content of the op is not at all surprising. Im glad my sense led me to never do business with you. Ray, you seem to have a clue about how to run a business, so regardless of the outcome, I hope you are remebered as the guy who tried to fix what was clearly a mismanaged venture from the outset. The Dark is Rising... Non EVE related content removed. Zymurgist
Nabbe	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:24:00 - [384] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Betty Rhage If I don't get a response, sure. I look forward to your information. On a more serious note, I'd just like to let everyone know we're aware of the concerns raised here and of the options presented. We have taken heed to the possibility people would like to withdraw their ISK sooner at a loss and will be working towards implementing a solution for that. We're also well aware of the monumental task ahead of us. As someone has indicated 8% compounded for a year on this quantity of ISK is quite a mission. But nothing is set in stone, we're open to changing the conditions set in the OP and will implement any suggestions we feel are sound and of benefit to both customers and the bank. While this is all good, it would be nice for us with accounts to get some direct news from the website in what plans or progress you and/or the Board plan on implementing. This thread is very hunky-dory, but it addressing all of EVE, not those of us that are directly affected by you and the Board's decision.
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:42:00 - [385] I can't imagine why anyone would persist with Eve banks at this point. Why bother? There's really almost no purpose here -- so much apparent effort and stress, for so little gain. The game simply does not have the features to make this work. And the social institutions aren't strong enough to compensate (and in fact they can't, when it's so easy to escape without consequences). If you know someone and trust them, sure, lend them money. But all this absurd apparatus doesn't mean anything, and never has.
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:01:00 - [386] Originally by: Betty Rhage I have a lot of inside data on the operations of evebank. A lot of the data, if made public, would totally destroy the credibility of many if not most of the people involved, including many "investors". I want the money owed to me, or I will make this very secret information very very public. Oh jeeze, I might be willing to pay you want Ebank owes you just to get you to simmer down...Actually, what do they owe you, this might be worth the laugh. Originally by: TraderAlt 3104989531 1) Are the BOD and employees account frozen as well? 2) Could you tell us how much from those accounts was withdrawn after this solution was proposed/discussed to the BOD and employees, but before it was announced publicly (in aggregate form, no one need be identified)? Good questions and I'd be curious to see it answered.
Renarri	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:10:00 - [387] I for one would just like my deposits back. Keep the stupid interest. Anyone else willing to right off the interest to at least get our deposits back? I must admit I do feel rather foolish...my account was only a week old before it was frozen. I spoke so highly of your business to my corp....now I avoid logging on during normal corp activity to avoid the laughter and mockery I receive. Thanks a bunch, you guys are excellent teachers in the school of hard knocks! I wonder if one of those ivy league law schools would give the BoD members honorary Doctorates?
Xetal Maelstrom	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:18:00 - [388] What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan? Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral.
Rie Takahashi	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:21:00 - [389] Originally by: Renarri now I avoid logging on during normal corp activity to avoid the laughter and mockery I receive. lol
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:26:00 - [390] Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom What reason does anyone have to repay their loan to a bank that kidnapped/stole everyone's money, lacks the game mechanics to do anything about a loan default, and lacks the funds to pay someone to go after someone who defaulted on a loan? Call me a pessimist, but I just can't see a lot of people with outstanding EBANK loans lining up to pay them back... especially those loans with low/no collateral. Along this line of thinking, what corp with a high-collateral loan is going to pay it back? They could be out as much as they borrowed (loan repaymened, but lost collateral to the Ebank blackhole). It's probably worth going over historical offerings and looking to see who was using Ebank as either a collateral-holder or a place to store funds.

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