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Trefnis Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.21 13:01:00 - [271] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 14/11/2009 21:42:39 WHAT 1. The Ion Siege, Dual Giga Pulse and 6x2500mm should be removed from the game. 2. Their role should be partially replaced by Siege Module scripts. WHY 1. If you commit to taking down a POS you risk being hotdropped by an enemy who will decide the engagement range. Even if your newly-improved Ion Siege can hit a large POS at optimal, no one would trade a slight damage bump for the complete inability to do anything at range. 2. Large fleets will still idle in front of a tower for 10 minutes in siege mode even if they have the DPS to raze it in 5. Past some point, short range weapons have zero purpose even when there is absolutely no risk of hotdrop. 3. There are no point-blank capital engagements where everybody is in optimal of short range guns because capitals will bump and spread wide even if both sides don't want them to. 4. Long range guns can hit other dreadnaughts at short ranges perfectly fine, since they're both stationary. HOW 1. Create three scripts for mandatory use with Siege Module 1. 2. First script makes ship and siege perform the same as it does now. 3. Second script +15% damage, 2x strontium cost, 20 minute duration timer. 4. Third script +25% damage, 2.5x strontium cost, 30 minute duration timer. BENEFITS 1. Dreadnaughts have more flexibility within their specific role while reducing the fitting variations that complicate the balancing process. 2. Lowers barriers to entry like excessive siege times for smaller groups without lowering consequences and risk. 3. Lowers the effort and time needed to clear out a broken alliance's infrastructure, while simultaneously giving said alliance an easier opportunity to strike back. If you can't tell by now, I am not really a fan of these changes because the concept of short range dreadnaught guns is pretty dumb to begin with. Scripts would move tactical decision making to the field, away from the paper-rock-scissors gamble of the fitting screen. And no, this isn't a new suggestion either, nor do I expect it to enter Dominion this late. But I've asked for it many times, and I feel its worthwhile to repeat better options even when they're not taken. People on both sides of the fence should never start assuming that a change made with good intentions will actually yield positive results. CCP's hit rate is under 50% and I imagine these tweaks won't be anything terribly relevant for improving cap warfare. i think you missed one point on why and how short range guns with more power let you (admitedly with no bumping) try do defend something from bigger adversary lets say your tower is being killed by 20 dreads and your corp have only 10 or 15, then you fit short range guns, drop on them and have a chance, (its not gonna work on 100vs100 capfights ofcours) your proposal means nothing less than either you stick there from start for 30 mins, or you drop, stick for 30min and let ppl you just killed to get MORE people to join the blob.
Sfynx The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.11.21 17:40:00 - [272] Edited by: Sfynx on 21/11/2009 17:40:03 Originally by: AngusThermo Hope you insured your phoenix, cause that's all it's going to be used for, insurance payouts after patch. I just wish i could get the skillpoints back, so i could use a real dread like the revelation I was planning on finishing Phoenix training and maxing my missile skills, but since my common gunnery is already maxed for fleet BS, I think I'm gonna do just that: buying some energy turret, armor and amarr ship skills
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.11.22 06:47:00 - [273] Originally by: Trefnis your proposal means nothing less than either you stick there from start for 30 mins, or you drop, stick for 30min and let ppl you just killed to get MORE people to join the blob. Replacing the guns with scripts does not remove the option to use higher damage as an advantage against numbers. If the aggressor is using 10 minute cycles, you can have either 15% or 25% damage superiority for up to 10 minutes - longer if they don't change scripts for some reason. Your advantage and how long it lasts might be less with scripts than it would be today, but at the same time you're not suffering a range penalty that can leave you totally helpless against targets at range, making it less of a gankfest gamble. In addition, if you can fool the aggressor to switch to 30 minute cycles with a perfectly calculated "first wave", your second wave doesn't need to be loaded with heavy dictors and can focus on doing damage instead. Its also important to have longer cycle times as an option for escalated fights, because 10 minutes is not enough when you have heavy lag and a handful of dictors trying to cover 50 cubic km of space. Like I said, the same general principle apply only the details and dynamics of each situation are different. While its a matter of preference, I would gladly sacrifice the ability to fight with 40% fewer ships if it meant forcing capitals (on either side) to commit to a battle fully. Judging by your last comment I guess you probably don't think the same way, but capital fights aren't made fun through excess maneuver and tactics.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:14:00 - [274] Going on the wild ideas direction. I think short range weapons could exist..... but have roughly same damage as long raneg ones. BUT while using them the dreads can still use their sublight engines. Might not look much but moving dreads are HARD targets for dreads if they are at "close range".
Sexonarocka	Posted - 2009.11.22 18:18:00 - [275] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 14/11/2009 21:42:39 WHAT 1. The Ion Siege, Dual Giga Pulse and 6x2500mm should be removed from the game. 2. Their role should be partially replaced by Siege Module scripts. WHY 1. If you commit to taking down a POS you risk being hotdropped by an enemy who will decide the engagement range. Even if your newly-improved Ion Siege can hit a large POS at optimal, no one would trade a slight damage bump for the complete inability to do anything at range. 2. Large fleets will still idle in front of a tower for 10 minutes in siege mode even if they have the DPS to raze it in 5. Past some point, short range weapons have zero purpose even when there is absolutely no risk of hotdrop. 3. There are no point-blank capital engagements where everybody is in optimal of short range guns because capitals will bump and spread wide even if both sides don't want them to. 4. Long range guns can hit other dreadnaughts at short ranges perfectly fine, since they're both stationary. HOW 1. Create three scripts for mandatory use with Siege Module 1. 2. First script makes ship and siege perform the same as it does now. 3. Second script +15% damage, 2x strontium cost, 20 minute duration timer. 4. Third script +25% damage, 2.5x strontium cost, 30 minute duration timer. BENEFITS 1. Dreadnaughts have more flexibility within their specific role while reducing the fitting variations that complicate the balancing process. 2. Lowers barriers to entry like excessive siege times for smaller groups without lowering consequences and risk. 3. Lowers the effort and time needed to clear out a broken alliance's infrastructure, while simultaneously giving said alliance an easier opportunity to strike back. If you can't tell by now, I am not really a fan of these changes because the concept of short range dreadnaught guns is pretty dumb to begin with. Scripts would move tactical decision making to the field, away from the paper-rock-scissors gamble of the fitting screen. And no, this isn't a new suggestion either, nor do I expect it to enter Dominion this late. But I've asked for it many times, and I feel its worthwhile to repeat better options even when they're not taken. People on both sides of the fence should never start assuming that a change made with good intentions will actually yield positive results. CCP's hit rate is under 50% and I imagine these tweaks won't be anything terribly relevant for improving cap warfare. DEFINITELY NOT.
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.24 11:28:00 - [276] i think the idea for scrips in specific circumstances is warranted Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.25 08:47:00 - [277] It's kind of amazing to me that the only Dread that isn't getting nerfed in Dominion is the Revelation. I just can't believe the amount of awful, awful stuff that came out of "balancing" capital weapons.
Mr Peanut420 RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.25 09:20:00 - [278] I like the idea of using a scripted siege module. Not for doing more damage like previously proposed though. One script for slow tracking/super damage/super tank, like right now and one script for fast tracking/low damage/low tank. Both would immobilize the ship but maybe give a shorter duration to the fast tracking script. Seems wrong that the massive dread fleet won't be able to hurt a BS fleet in the future.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.25 10:21:00 - [279] Originally by: Seriously Bored It's kind of amazing to me that the only Dread that isn't getting nerfed in Dominion is the Revelation. I just can't believe the amount of awful, awful stuff that came out of "balancing" capital weapons. I think CCP should issue a ban on any alcohol consumption to their game balance team until they stop behaving like drunk sharpshooters.
Merfio Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.25 17:26:00 - [280] Wow you people are actually really good in ignoring the fact that the capital torpedo launcher had its rof reduced from 48 secs to 26 sec. Go on being mad about something really stupid.

Fuujin GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.25 17:43:00 - [281] Edited by: Fuujin on 25/11/2009 17:44:09 Originally by: Merfio Wow you people are actually really good in ignoring the fact that the capital torpedo launcher had its rof reduced from 48 secs to 26 sec. Go on being mad about something really stupid. I know its probably redundant to the learned person from the school of applied knowledge, but the cruise launcher has the old RoF of the torp launcher. The torp launcher, while having a nearly double RoF, also cannot hit past 60km--and that's with max skills and rigs. Also, its explosion radius/velocity means that it cannot hit anything smaller than a dread for any appreciable damage, and even a dread will get about half damage from the torpedo. Meaning that even though it is firing nearly twice as fast, it's doing the same damage. To put it yet another way, there's no reason to use it over the cruise launcher. And even the cruise launcher can't do full damage to a dreadnought. Or any structure smaller than a large tower (including all anchorable mods). Citadel missiles are well and truly nerfed/useless in dominion. I'm crosstraining for a Revelation.
Merfio Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.25 17:57:00 - [282] Originally by: Fuujin Edited by: Fuujin on 25/11/2009 17:44:09 Originally by: Merfio Wow you people are actually really good in ignoring the fact that the capital torpedo launcher had its rof reduced from 48 secs to 26 sec. Go on being mad about something really stupid. I know its probably redundant to the learned person from the school of applied knowledge, but the cruise launcher has the old RoF of the torp launcher. The torp launcher, while having a nearly double RoF, also cannot hit past 60km--and that's with max skills and rigs. Also, its explosion radius/velocity means that it cannot hit anything smaller than a dread for any appreciable damage, and even a dread will get about half damage from the torpedo. Meaning that even though it is firing nearly twice as fast, it's doing the same damage. To put it yet another way, there's no reason to use it over the cruise launcher. And even the cruise launcher can't do full damage to a dreadnought. Or any structure smaller than a large tower (including all anchorable mods). Citadel missiles are well and truly nerfed/useless in dominion. I'm crosstraining for a Revelation. Didnt know that you guys put small towers on r64. As said in another thread, there something called hubs and outposts that you have to shoot also in dominion. I know theyre pretty small and tend to be moving....
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.25 18:04:00 - [283] Originally by: Merfio Originally by: Fuujin Edited by: Fuujin on 25/11/2009 17:44:09 Originally by: Merfio Wow you people are actually really good in ignoring the fact that the capital torpedo launcher had its rof reduced from 48 secs to 26 sec. Go on being mad about something really stupid. I know its probably redundant to the learned person from the school of applied knowledge, but the cruise launcher has the old RoF of the torp launcher. The torp launcher, while having a nearly double RoF, also cannot hit past 60km--and that's with max skills and rigs. Also, its explosion radius/velocity means that it cannot hit anything smaller than a dread for any appreciable damage, and even a dread will get about half damage from the torpedo. Meaning that even though it is firing nearly twice as fast, it's doing the same damage. To put it yet another way, there's no reason to use it over the cruise launcher. And even the cruise launcher can't do full damage to a dreadnought. Or any structure smaller than a large tower (including all anchorable mods). Citadel missiles are well and truly nerfed/useless in dominion. I'm crosstraining for a Revelation. Didnt know that you guys put small towers on r64. As said in another thread, there something called hubs and outposts that you have to shoot also in dominion. I know theyre pretty small and tend to be moving.... and still the main target of dreadnaughts where balance is relevant are OTHER DREADS!!! Firign at a pos is irrelevant if you deal 10% less damage.. you are bound to cycles of 10 minutes anyway and even with lol fits modern dread forces can reinforce towers in 1 cycle with spare time. Balance is needed on capital vs capital fights! Its the condition where your capability to apply damage is REALLY important on a life or death level. You clearly have never participated much in serious capital warfare.
Nobani Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.25 20:08:00 - [284] Edited by: Nobani on 25/11/2009 20:08:50 Originally by: Seishi Maru Going on the wild ideas direction. I think short range weapons could exist..... but have roughly same damage as long raneg ones. BUT while using them the dreads can still use their sublight engines. Might not look much but moving dreads are HARD targets for dreads if they are at "close range". You need to solve the problem of a short range weapon fit dreadnought being completely incapable of either fighting back or GTFO if attacked by a long-range dread fleet. Something like give dreads a way to "emergency abort" siege cycle. Or give short range weapons a huge falloff so they can hit out to long ranges, just not very well.
Geralden	Posted - 2009.11.25 21:29:00 - [285] Not only is the Phoenix now utter crap for damage using the citadel cruise missiles, you allso need to train up a new capital weapon skill. Something that any of the gun users dont have to do, except for the poor nagalfar pilots. Citadel torps wont be used, since they cant do damage in most battles, and the cruise dont do enough damage. That the RoF has been decreased matters nothing, since the explotion radius has been increased to 250% more than the sig rad for any other capital weapons, balanced? Neither the torps OR the citadel torps will even give full damage on a SITTING TITAN, that is, the titan moves at 0 m/s. If that titan moves by more than 8 m/s, it will get FURTHER damage reduction. Now, Notz is claiming that you need a target painter to give full damage, except, aperantly, he doesnt know that a titan, mom and sieged dread, triaged carriers are immune to target painters. O... so are all buildings. You did a good job with the pirate ships and most changes to the navy ships are allso good, but the capital ships... man, that is lacking.
Geralden	Posted - 2009.11.26 06:30:00 - [286] Nice, with the latest patch the capital missiles are usable again. Explotion radius has been decreased to 2250 for citadel torps (still too high) and 1500 m for citadel cruise - witch is better but, has to be lowered to 1000 to be comparable with the other capital siege weapons. Explotion velocity is still not fixed, so any moving targets will stil be able to tank alot of the damage. Let the explotion velocity be more than 100 m, so titans cant speedtank the citadel cruise at least.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.26 10:05:00 - [287] Its an improvement. But ccp must realize they cannot balance the ships damage and nerf ship bonuses based on short range weapons that will NOT be used. Even when hotdrop someone at 20 km you should and will NOT use short range guns. Because you will be bumped and because you will be counter hot dropped at 150 km then all your fleet is toast. CCP MUST put thin into their thick skulls. Dreads are balanced around LONG range. Only way to change that is removing their inability to move and warp. IF ccp wants long ans short range missiles , the ONLY way to have them and have the short range ones used is to make them BOTH usable on same launcher. Just changeable during combat.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.26 10:14:00 - [288] Originally by: Nobani Edited by: Nobani on 25/11/2009 20:08:50 Originally by: Seishi Maru Going on the wild ideas direction. I think short range weapons could exist..... but have roughly same damage as long raneg ones. BUT while using them the dreads can still use their sublight engines. Might not look much but moving dreads are HARD targets for dreads if they are at "close range". You need to solve the problem of a short range weapon fit dreadnought being completely incapable of either fighting back or GTFO if attacked by a long-range dread fleet. Something like give dreads a way to "emergency abort" siege cycle. Or give short range weapons a huge falloff so they can hit out to long ranges, just not very well. Really that is the main and core issue that prevent close range wepons to even be thinkable by smart pilots. What I think could be done is. Siege sycle disable jump drive and warp to outside grids. But dread can still move sublight engines and can still warp inside grid. Done that would make short range weapons usable and used a lot by dreads. And woudl make combat more interesting as well.
Hun Jakuza 24th Imperial Guard	Posted - 2009.11.26 11:49:00 - [289] Originally by: Seishi Maru Its an improvement. .... Pfff a CCP alt made again an idiotic answer.
Merfio Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.26 12:12:00 - [290] Eh am i missing something. The explosoion radius has been like this before for 2 or 3 patches. Ive tested the citadel cruises missiles yesterday btw and made really good results. Quote: [ 2009.11.25 ] (combat) Your Rajas Citadel Cruise Missile hits (Archon), doing 6412.1 damage. He was moving with 60 m/s. Quote: 2009.11.25 ] (combat)Your Rajas Citadel Cruise Missile hits Phoenix), doing 5807.1 damage. He was sieged. Quote: [ 2009.11.25 ] (combat) Your Rajas Citadel Cruise Missile hits (Nidhoggur), doing 4089.4 damage. He was doing 109 m/s. Is this that bad at all?

Liisa Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.26 14:26:00 - [291] Not sure if that is bad or not. You see I do not have all the details of the test, however it does look pretty good as you are probably doing around 1.1k dps on that nidhoggur if you are shooing his shields at 40% kinetic resistance. However, at some ranges a revelation will probably do double that with beams. This, however, is quite different than what my spreadsheet is telling me, probably because I simply assumed a few things, like the damage reduction factor being 5 and citadel cruise not being affected by any velocity or signature reduction skills. Of course my spreadsheet could just plain be off. This is the problem you see. We just don't know the how and why. Putting up graphs that show just the dps of a single turret, like was done in the blog, simply does not show the full picture that includes, for instance, ship bonuses, damage mods maybe even tracking mods. Remember that each extra damage mod that a naglfar has to fit is another slot (of which one is already lost due to fitting 4 weapons) that cannot be devoted to the tank, sensor boosting or other nifty little modules like tracking enhancers. What we were shown was a very narrow picture instead of the big picture. Now, because we do not have the full information on the new and changed weapons systems posted anywhere, we cannot really attempt to paint this picture ourselves without a massive investment in time to test everything on SiSi to see just what skills apply to what modules (or not). I am slowly coming to the point where I just throw my hands up in the air for lack of information and where I will let the big 0.0 alliances do the testing on tranquility. What I expect to see in a few months is that the revelation is still the correct dread and that everybody is still fitting long range most of the time except for very small hot drops on targets that cannot get capital backup (you never want to be in the position that you cannot shoot back if you are counter hot dropped, making close range weapons kinda, well, dangerous on ships that cannot run for 10 minutes at a time). Oh, and the naglfar is still going to be royally f#@ked due to the split weapon system and those annoying damage modules.
Merfio Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.26 14:31:00 - [292] Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 14:33:30 Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 14:31:54 Archon/Nidhoggur damage was on armor. I suggest testing it for yourself.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2009.11.26 15:42:00 - [293] I just thought I'd chime in with the latest citadel stats on Sisi. Originally by: CCP Abathur Missiles Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats: Old Value / New Value Citadel Torp Launcher I RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds ( 26s now ) Citadel Torpedoes Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds ( 15s now, but look at the new lol velocity ) Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500 ( 1100 m/s. 16500 base range? And a shortrange weapon that takes almost 1s to travel 1km?) Base Damage: 1800 / 2000 ( still 2000 ) Explosion Velocity: 29 m/s ( now 20m/s ) Explosion Radius: 1000 ( now 2250 ) Citadel Cruise Launcher I RoF: 48 seconds ( 44s now, but the lower base dmg actually makes this a 11% decrease in raw dps ) Citadel Cruise Missiles Flight Time: 20 seconds ( still 20s ) Base Velocity: 4250 ( 3500 m/s now, thanks for the increased travel time. These MonsterÖ DPS cruises really need less of a chance to apply their godly damage ) Base Damage: 1800 ( 1500 now ) Explosion Velocity: 29 m/s Explosion Radius: 1500 Phoenix pilots, rejoice!
Merfio Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.26 15:56:00 - [294] You guys should really start testing it before jumping to any conclusions with your spreadsheets. just saying.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.26 16:00:00 - [295] Originally by: Hun Jakuza Originally by: Seishi Maru Its an improvement. .... Pfff a CCP alt made again an idiotic answer. and you made an infinitely more idiotic post since I am basically the person that bashed CCP Nohz and CCP game development perception of game most heavily on the last 1 week on this forum. So.. shut up and go back to your dark hole.
Sannye	Posted - 2009.11.26 16:35:00 - [296] Edited by: Sannye on 26/11/2009 16:36:09 Merfio,do you have troubble reading? For the last 24 hours YES the missiles explosion radius has been changed to 1500 m, FROM 2250 m witch is a good thing. This was ONE of the changes that we have been trying to get. Citadel torps are still NOT usable with an explosion rad. on 2250 m. All other cap weapons have 1000 m resolusion, why are missiles worse ? All other capital weapons grant a long range AND a short range, with ONE skill, why are missiles worse ? All other capital weapons can give full damage to moving targets, why are missiles worse ? (IF they can hit - tracking edit) IF missiles did any better damage, it was understandable why missiles had to take 2 times the time to even train for. If missiles had better damage, it would make sense that you can only carry very limited supply of ammo - the revalation has unlimited supply of ammo, for the cost of 0 cargo space. The rev can carry alot more stront/fuel. If you could switch your longrange missiles for the shortrange torps in the same launcher, maybe anyone would use the torps? Those were the issues capital missiles has that i could think off. I'll rather train for amarr (need all shipskills AND gun skills - so around 6 months of training) than fielding a phoenix in its current form.
Merfio Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.26 16:39:00 - [297] Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 16:42:25 Originally by: Sannye Edited by: Sannye on 26/11/2009 16:36:09 Merfio,do you have troubble reading? No, you have. They were in since a few days. Not since tonight. Get your facts straight plz. And btw you ever thought of suicide possibilties to get down SBUs quickly? Plz take a note how much damage torps do on stationary targets. Theyre just fecking awesome on them.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.11.26 16:54:00 - [298] Originally by: Merfio Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 16:42:25 Originally by: Sannye Edited by: Sannye on 26/11/2009 16:36:09 Merfio,do you have troubble reading? No, you have. They were in since a few days. Not since tonight. Get your facts straight plz. And btw you ever thought of suicide possibilties to get down SBUs quickly? Plz take a note how much damage torps do on stationary targets. Theyre just fecking awesome on them. youmean on hypotetical targets inside 36 km? Anythign shorter than 60 km is waste of time.
Liisa Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.11.26 17:01:00 - [299] Originally by: Merfio Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 14:33:30 Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 14:31:54 Archon/Nidhoggur damage was on armor. I suggest testing it for yourself. Armour resistances were? Your statements mean nothing. As for testing for myself, I do not have citadel cruise trained, nor will I considering the fact that they split the naglfars weapon systems AGAIN.
Merfio Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.11.26 17:10:00 - [300] Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 17:12:04 Edited by: Merfio on 26/11/2009 17:10:44 About that this has changed last night: Quote: The new version of the Citadel Torpedo follows the same trend as other unguided missiles. The explosion velocity is slightly higher than that of the Citadel Cruise Missiles (or 2250) which means target painters will have to be utilized in many situations to achieve full damage potential. They do considerably more damage than their missile counterparts, with reduced range and velocity. The explosion radius of Citadel Cruise Missiles will be set to 1500, which differs from the current 1000 explosion radius of Citadel Torpedoes on Tranquility. This value has remained the same throughout many capital ship changes since capital ships were introduced with a signature radius of 1000, causing imbalances with the weapon system. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=717 This more funny then i thought. It is already on the server since the introduction of the citadels cruises. Bot noone seems to be interested in testing them on Sissi. Yay eft warriors.



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