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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Kaitou Shiroi
Hakata Group Blade.
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Posted - 2009.10.10 23:41:00 -
[31]
Sweet baby Jesus, is that a blaster-buff I see there? Thank you, it's about damn time the blasters have enough range to be actually used for something.
Also, the 20% drone bonus made a lot more sense than the "only in siege" solution, since it would make the second ship bonus different than all other dreads' second bonus, and the 20% bonus is already on TQ in the form of the Rorqual (yes, it gets a bonus to drones AND carebeariness) so there's actual precedent. Very well thought out changes, CCP. (Christ, did I actually just say that? ) ---
Unless specifically stated otherwise, the opinions expressed in my posts do not reflect those held by my corporation or alliance.
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Eheufaucan
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.10.11 00:56:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Eheufaucan on 11/10/2009 01:03:12 Edited by: Eheufaucan on 11/10/2009 00:58:57 Edited by: Eheufaucan on 11/10/2009 00:56:13 As a Phoenix pilot I was really happy that I didn't had to choose between long range and short range weapons. Constant damage no matter if the target is 20km or 120km away. Sounds unfair but on the other hand you do less damage, other capitals can "speedtank" your citadel torpedos (when in siege the explosion velocity is reduced to 17.4 m/s), it takes a long time until the first missiles hit and start doing damage (37.5 seconds flight time if you're firing from max range (if you think about such long flight times an Interceptor could follow the torps (4,125 km/s max torp speed), target and destroy them before they reach the target) and 6 smartbombs can destroy a citadel torp (I don't think a capital pilot will fit 6 SBs but its still possible). I think this compensates for the ability to do damage from short to long range. But now with the current changes missile users have more disadvantages compared to gunners.
First: the training time. To use Citadel Torps you had to train Torpedos up to 5. Now with the Citadel Cruise Missiles I bet you have to train Cruise Missiles up to 5 too because it doesn't make any sense if you have the torpedo skill as a prerequisit for the cruise missiles. Thats additional training time for Caldari and Minmar. Just look at the capital tank modules. To fit a Capital Armor Repairer you need Mechanic 5, Hull Upgrades 5 and Repair Systems 5. Thats two rank 1 and one rank 2 skills. To fit a Capital Shield Booster you need Engineering 5, Shield Operation 5 and Shield Management 5. Thats two rank 1 and one rank 3 skills. Again more training time for Caldari and shield tanking Minmatar. And don't forget that until a few weeks ago you had that useless rank 4 skill Tactical Shield Manipulation as a prerequisit.
To make it short for each race you need the following skills:
Amarr: Gunnery (1) Large Energy Turret (5) Capital Energy Turrets (7)
Gallente: Gunnery (1) Large Hybrid Turret (5) Capital Hybrid Turrets (7) + Drone skills (BUT as someone already mentioned before each race can use Drones, you can also use them on sub-capitals and every fighter should train for
Heavy T2 Drones sooner or later)
Caldari: Missile Launcher Operation (1) Torpedos (4) Cruise Missiles (5) Citadel Torpedos (7) Citadel Cruise (?)
Minmatar: Gunnery (1) Large Projectil Turret (5) Missile Launcher Operation (1) Torpedos (4) Cruise Missiles (5) Citadel Torpedos (7) Citadel Cruise (?) Capital Projectil Turrets (7)
When I started playing EVE years ago they told me that for the Amarr you need lots of skills to be effectiv but these numbers say something completely different.
Next: maximum range. I did some math with the changes to the short range weapons and with all the weapon range skills at 5 (Sharpshooter, Trajectory Analysis, Missile Bombardement and Missile Projection) you get the following numbers:
Amarr:
62,5 + 6,3 km Standard 31,3 + 6,3 km Short Range Ammo 78,1 + 6,3 km Long Range Ammo
Gallente:
56,3 + 12,5 km Standard 28,1 + 12,5 km Short 90,0 + 12,5 km Long (75,0 + 30,0 km with T2 Warden Sentry)
Minmatar:
56,3 + 18,8 km Standard 28,1 + 18,8 km Long 90,0 + 18,8 km Short
Caldari:
59,1 km
So if the Fleet Commander wants a max damage short range setups (for POS takedowns for example) gunners are still flexible enough and can switch to long range ammo at any time if hostile caps show up at long distances. Of course they're losing damage with long range ammo but at least they DO some damage at all. If the enemy shows up more than 59km away a Phoenix pilot does ZERO damage an can do nothing except waiting to come out of siege and move closer.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.10.11 01:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Eheufaucan
Gallente:
56,3 + 12,5 km Standard 28,1 + 12,5 km Short 90,0 + 12,5 km Long (75,0 + 30,0 km with T2 Warden Sentry)
60km on wardens. IIRC thats max attack range on moros (all skill lv5)
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VENOM2k99
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.11 01:34:00 -
[34]
It's nice trying to make Phoenixes more realible\pratical to shoot POS and module. But having 2 diferent modules make no sense at all.
While other dreads will only need to switch ammo, the phoenixes will have to refit???
Why dont a new Citadel missile launcher is introduce and two type of missiles? Long and short. That will make more sense.
I hope this will change :)
thank you
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Giselle Beaute
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Posted - 2009.10.11 02:00:00 -
[35]
Jup, that would be the best solution. A new Citadel launcher which could fire both types: Citadel Torpedos (more damage, short range) and Cruise (less damage, long range) and you can switch the ammo during a fight without having to refit.
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Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 02:45:00 -
[36]
Capital Short Range Weapons: like the ideas here think that they are making the weapons too much the same. I would make the ACs have 30km optimal and 30km falloff and make the blasters have a 15km falloff. makes them a bit more diffrent from each other.
Missiles people are complaining about the same issues that every turret boat has, you could always fit the long range ones if you are worried about being able to always hit. Now the missile skills is an issue the current capital weapons skill should cover both types of launchers just like other weapon systems cover both their long ranged and short ranged weapons.
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.10.11 03:20:00 -
[37]
Shame you feel it is necessary to nerf the only cool thing about the Moros.
Magic 8-ball tells me: Dread station campers now move to a Cruise Pheonix, you don't solve any zero risk dread station game problems, and you upset many loyal customer who have trained Gallente Dread 5 for literally months in the process. Cool.
I always hated capital ships though anyway TBH, just like you balancing guys hate drones and the Gallente.
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Major Hunt
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Posted - 2009.10.11 04:27:00 -
[38]
Originally by: CCP Abathur Turrets
Part of the static update yesterday were a few changes to capital turrets. For a long time now (okay, ever since they were introduced), due to their stats it was hard to justify fitting the 'short range' XL turrets over their counterparts. Being unable to hit a large starbase tower within optimal range of their most damaging ammo was just one of the issues. We've taken a look at these weapons and have started by making a few initial changes.
Old Value / New Value
Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I Optimal Range: 12 / 45 Falloff: 20 / 10 Damage Mod: 7 / 8 Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825
6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I Optimal Range: 8 / 45 Falloff: 32 / 15 Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2 Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108
Dual Giga Pulse Laser I Optimal Range: 40 / 50 Falloff: 16 / 5 Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128
Missiles
Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:
Old Value / New Value
Citadel Torp Launcher I RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds
Citadel Torpedoes Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500 Base Damage: 1800 / 2000
Citadel Cruise Launcher I RoF: 48 seconds
Citadel Cruise Missiles Flight Time: 20 seconds Base Velocity: 4250 Base Damage: 1800
That Moros issue...
We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.
As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.
I am encouraged by what you are trying to do here. Much sought after changes, and long overdue.
However, I am concerned with the ratios of damage vs range with blasters, pulse and autocannons Under the current proposal, blasters have a clear advantage over all weapons with highest damage mod and almost the same range as a pulse weapon. Autocannons suffer the worst fate. We tried this on the test server and blasters clearly had the advatage.
I would suggest increaseing the pulse weapon range by 10km, and reducing the blasters by 5km. The autocannons I would like to see the optiaml/falloff split closer to 60/40. This would put the weapons more inline with already establish conventions.
The citidal cruise/torps is bang on imo
PS: The moros change is good!
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anheuser
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 05:42:00 -
[39]
Citadel cruises look pretty good. Now we're just at the relative nit-picky levels. Cruises are still unlikely to be used in the big alliances because they can't snipe all the way out to 250km with the same setup as the other dreads.
If you look the big alliance killboards, we all seem to fit our sniping dreads roughly the same: 1 T2 falloff rig and the tracking computer with range script. This will get you all the way out to the 250km limit (moros can do it without the TC). With cruise missiles, there's no equivalent to the tracking computer, so you're always going to be limited more in range. Given a similar setup (and assuming max skills for Projection and Bombardment), you'll get only out to 230km ((4.25km * 1.5 * 1.2) * 20 * 1.5). To make it to 250km, you need a second T1 rig. The result is less tank for these ships compared to their gun siblings because of the additional rig slot needed.
To really bring them back in to contention with the others dreads in the big alliance game, the numbers need to be tweaked just slightly to get that extra 20km out of them. If you bring the speed up to 4600m/s for the cruises, they'll hit out to 248km, which would be good enough. 4650 gets it just over the line for 250km, which is our ultimate goal. While you could change the flight time, then you'd still suffer the same problem of needing 30s to reach the target - two volleys from gun dreads have passed in that time, so unacceptable.
The alternate would be to introduce an equivalent to the tracking computer for missile range boost, or just modify the TC to have a missile range script to do the same thing. Scripted with a 30% range increase would be nice.
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Grut
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 08:36:00 -
[40]
Originally by: anheuser Citadel cruises look pretty good. Now we're just at the relative nit-picky levels. Cruises are still unlikely to be used in the big alliances because they can't snipe all the way out to 250km with the same setup as the other dreads.
If you look the big alliance killboards, we all seem to fit our sniping dreads roughly the same: 1 T2 falloff rig and the tracking computer with range script. This will get you all the way out to the 250km limit (moros can do it without the TC). With cruise missiles, there's no equivalent to the tracking computer, so you're always going to be limited more in range. Given a similar setup (and assuming max skills for Projection and Bombardment), you'll get only out to 230km ((4.25km * 1.5 * 1.2) * 20 * 1.5). To make it to 250km, you need a second T1 rig. The result is less tank for these ships compared to their gun siblings because of the additional rig slot needed.
To really bring them back in to contention with the others dreads in the big alliance game, the numbers need to be tweaked just slightly to get that extra 20km out of them. If you bring the speed up to 4600m/s for the cruises, they'll hit out to 248km, which would be good enough. 4650 gets it just over the line for 250km, which is our ultimate goal. While you could change the flight time, then you'd still suffer the same problem of needing 30s to reach the target - two volleys from gun dreads have passed in that time, so unacceptable.
The alternate would be to introduce an equivalent to the tracking computer for missile range boost, or just modify the TC to have a missile range script to do the same thing. Scripted with a 30% range increase would be nice.
Cruise are a joke - they go slower then BS cruise (ship bonus) and noone ever uses BS cruise.
The current stats give 10kms with 3 t1 riggs.... 25 secs to 250km? useless.
After skills and rigs they have to be going atleast 40kms without destroying fitting.
I think your right there needs to be a module buffing missile speeds. Maybe lowslot so you trade damage for snipe?
Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know...
Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought |
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Vector Aeon
ALAZAIS' JIHAD CARRIER FACTORY
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:47:00 -
[41]
Originally by: anheuser
The alternate would be to introduce an equivalent to the tracking computer for missile range boost, or just modify the TC to have a missile range script to do the same thing. Scripted with a 30% range increase would be nice.
I think this idea is absolutely brilliant because not only does it rectify several critical issues with citadels, but also could fix some of the shortfalls of rockets (no pun intended) as well as other missile systems. Completely awesome suggestion.
/signed!
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Arakidias
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:08:00 -
[42]
Is it just me or did the Phoenix get a major damage boost here for close range?
From base dps (I don't remember all the possible bonuses from the top of my head) of 112 to 181. That's a pretty major damage increase in my books.
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Crazy Broker
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:33:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Crazy Broker on 11/10/2009 12:36:17
Originally by: CCP Abathur Turrets 6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I Optimal Range: 8 / 45 Falloff: 32 / 15 Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2 Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108
We don't need OR 45. 15 is enough. Give our falloff back! (Even increase it =)) One more skill to matarr (cruise), it's so sad. But the boost of close XL weapon - it realy good =)
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Kreonny
Minmatar R.U.S.H Red Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:37:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Crazy Broker on 11/10/2009 12:36:17
Originally by: CCP Abathur Turrets 6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I Optimal Range: 8 / 45 Falloff: 32 / 15 Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2 Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108
We don't need OR 45. 15 is enough. Give our falloff back! (Even increase it =)) One more skill to matarr (cruise), it's so sad. But the boost of close XL weapon - it realy good =)
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Eheufaucan
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:49:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Eheufaucan on 11/10/2009 12:50:51
Originally by: Norris Packard Missiles people are complaining about the same issues that every turret boat has, you could always fit the long range ones if you are worried about being able to always hit.
But Missile users now have to choose whether they fit long range/low dps or short range/high dps launchers - and I guess most will fit the long range ones to make sure they can always hit the target. Turret users still can fit the short range guns and switch to long range ammo at any time during the fight. Just look at the numbers:
78+ 6 km Amarr 90+12 km Gallente 90+18 km Minmatar
These are short range guns with long range ammo. Of course they do less damage but still Gallente and Minmatar can hit targets over 100km away - I repeat - with SHORT RANGE GUNS!
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Walker Bulldog
Minmatar VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2009.10.11 13:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Eheufaucan Edited by: Eheufaucan on 11/10/2009 12:50:51
Originally by: Norris Packard Missiles people are complaining about the same issues that every turret boat has, you could always fit the long range ones if you are worried about being able to always hit.
But Missile users now have to choose whether they fit long range/low dps or short range/high dps launchers - and I guess most will fit the long range ones to make sure they can always hit the target. Turret users still can fit the short range guns and switch to long range ammo at any time during the fight. Just look at the numbers:
78+ 6 km Amarr 90+12 km Gallente 90+18 km Minmatar
These are short range guns with long range ammo. Of course they do less damage but still Gallente and Minmatar can hit targets over 100km away - I repeat - with SHORT RANGE GUNS!
Does it matter really? A dread fleet fit for sniping will drop in at 200km and pound the short range users into debris with complete impunity - with one sensor booster, I can't even lock past 185km. Yes, turret users have a certain advantage in 60-100km engagement range, but how often might we be able to utilize it?
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Mya ElleTerego
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.10.11 13:22:00 -
[47]
Please dont listen to the whiners, station humping moros is about as weaksauce as you can get at pvp. Please nerf non sieged moros drone dps to hell. Thanks. If they hit siege green they should get it back imo, but not until then. Alliance Recruit thread Alliance Homepage/Killboard |
Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:13:00 -
[48]
In an ideal fleet all phoenix pilots would be used to counterdrop enemy snipers tbh,s pecially with the buff to close range damage they could wreck havoc on the other caps/supercaps. But that requeires to have a part of the fleet on standby off course.
I like the more flexible option of long/short range torpedos: - you don't need to refit. - you don't need additional skills. - you have a nice difference with the other wapons systems (more flavour, etc.).
Also the suggestion of a module to increase missiles velocity it's very nice, so signed.
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Mc Leech
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:34:00 -
[49]
Originally by: CCP Abathur That Moros issue...
We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.
As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.
Good idea but bad implementation, just think about what this change will do to erebus vs other titans...
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Ellatan Deruimte
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:39:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Mya ElleTerego Edited by: Mya ElleTerego on 11/10/2009 13:27:00 Please dont listen to the whiners, station humping moros is about as weaksauce as you can get at pvp. Please nerf non sieged moros drone dps to hell. Thanks. If they hit siege green they should get it back imo, but not until then. Also will a phoenix even be able to hit a large control tower with torps with that terribad range?
This tbh, if you can implement it. That will address the issue with station huggers and let Moros retain comparable dps with other dreads in siege. That's what people in null sec care about mostly, while we can understand the reasoning of lowsec\npc 0.0 guys. Also calling for drone control range bonus, otherwise compensating drone damage decrease with rail damage increase doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Higher drone damage and optimal in siege please.
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Eheufaucan
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:37:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mya ElleTerego Also will a phoenix even be able to hit a large control tower with torps with that terribad range?
Yes, they will hit the tower. The shield radius of a large control tower is 30km. The base range of the new citadel torps are 26,25 km - but with the Missile Bombardement and Missile Projection skill at 5 you can hit at 59km.
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Christos Hendez
Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.10.11 18:25:00 -
[52]
Suggestion:
Change current Citadel Torpedoes skill to Citadel Missiles.
Since there is no T2 capital missile launcher (much like no t2 XL turrets) this should be the only pre-req skill for Torpedoes AND Cruise launchers.
If you insist on making Citadel Torpedos (skill) and Citadel Cruise Missiles (skill) then i request that you also make Capital Pulse, Capital Beam (ETC)
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Tahkayun
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Posted - 2009.10.11 18:48:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Tahkayun on 11/10/2009 18:52:27
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Cheekything
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.10.11 18:48:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Christos Hendez Suggestion:
Change current Citadel Torpedoes skill to Citadel Missiles.
Since there is no T2 capital missile launcher (much like no t2 XL turrets) this should be the only pre-req skill for Torpedoes AND Cruise launchers.
If you insist on making Citadel Torpedos (skill) and Citadel Cruise Missiles (skill) then i request that you also make Capital Pulse, Capital Beam (ETC)
That or give us tech 2 capital stuff its about times
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Christos Hendez
Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.10.11 18:56:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Cheekything
Originally by: Christos Hendez Suggestion:
Change current Citadel Torpedoes skill to Citadel Missiles.
Since there is no T2 capital missile launcher (much like no t2 XL turrets) this should be the only pre-req skill for Torpedoes AND Cruise launchers.
If you insist on making Citadel Torpedos (skill) and Citadel Cruise Missiles (skill) then i request that you also make Capital Pulse, Capital Beam (ETC)
That or give us tech 2 capital stuff its about times
Not a horrible idea idea.
Change Citadel Torpedoes skill as it is now to Citadel Missiles, and add Citadel Torpedo Spec and Citadel Cruise Spec (obviously do the same to all the other weapon systems)
Make the pre-req Lvl 4 Citadel Missiles. But make it so people who trained Citadel Torps (now Citadel Missiles) to Lvl 5 havent waster their time (MEEEE)
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.10.11 20:53:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Eheufaucan First: the training time.
On the very rare occasions that CCP has said anything about what factors are considered when balancing, training time has never been one of them.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.10.11 21:42:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ulstan on 11/10/2009 21:44:56
Originally by: Areo Hotah What will be the pre-reqs for Citadel Cruise? If cruise V, another nerf for the Nag: I now have to train a 3rd capital weapon, where as the Rev and Moros do with one (if you mention drones: I have to train them for the Nag as well, and I can use them on many sub-capital ships.)
Giving you another weapon option is not a nerf. You don't have to train for it if you don't want to.
And it's not even a 3rd system - it uses all the same support skills torps do.
Dread need something, but I am not sure if this is it.
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Makalu Zarya
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Posted - 2009.10.11 22:56:00 -
[58]
as mentioned before reducing the drone bonus on the moros to 20% is a slap to the face for most gal. pilots. You are basically making a bigger domi out of it and that's not what it's supposed to be. Please leave Moros the way it is - if it ain't broken don't fix it and Moros sure as hell wasn't broken.
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AL G0RE
Intergalactic Hunters of ManBearPig
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Posted - 2009.10.12 02:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Eheufaucan
Gallente:
56,3 + 12,5 km Standard 28,1 + 12,5 km Short 90,0 + 12,5 km Long (75,0 + 30,0 km with T2 Warden Sentry)
the only way you will be able to fully use that drone range if by filling your high-slots with drone link augs... other wise you are capped out at something like 50km due to the control range
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William Caldon
Caldari Golden Cross Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.10.12 03:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: VENOM2k99 It's nice trying to make Phoenixes more realible\pratical to shoot POS and module. But having 2 diferent modules make no sense at all.
While other dreads will only need to switch ammo, the phoenixes will have to refit???
Why dont a new Citadel missile launcher is introduce and two type of missiles? Long and short. That will make more sense.
I hope this will change :)
thank you
Uhh, yeah, because all dreads fit sniper-fits all the time. Especially after this change.
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