Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets

Part of the static update yesterday were a few changes to capital turrets. For a long time now (okay, ever since they were introduced), due to their stats it was hard to justify fitting the 'short range' XL turrets over their counterparts. Being unable to hit a large starbase tower within optimal range of their most damaging ammo was just one of the issues. We've taken a look at these weapons and have started by making a few initial changes.

Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128


Missiles

Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:

Old Value / New Value

Citadel Torp Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds

Citadel Torpedoes
Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds
Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500
Base Damage: 1800 / 2000

Citadel Cruise Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds

Citadel Cruise Missiles
Flight Time: 20 seconds
Base Velocity: 4250
Base Damage: 1800


That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

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Originally by: DeviloftheHell

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Edited by: DeviloftheHell on 17/10/2009 07:35:58

Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets

Part of the static update yesterday were a few changes to capital turrets. For a long time now (okay, ever since they were introduced), due to their stats it was hard to justify fitting the 'short range' XL turrets over their counterparts. Being unable to hit a large starbase tower within optimal range of their most damaging ammo was just one of the issues. We've taken a look at these weapons and have started by making a few initial changes.

Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128


Missiles

Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:

Old Value / New Value

Citadel Torp Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds

Citadel Torpedoes
Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds
Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500
Base Damage: 1800 / 2000

Citadel Cruise Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds

Citadel Cruise Missiles
Flight Time: 20 seconds
Base Velocity: 4250
Base Damage: 1800


That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

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greet you nerfing the moros and boosting the phoenix with cruise missiles what does almost the same damage as the torp to longer distance congrat you are really idiots..
edit
15%+ damage to guns and 150% dmg nerf to drones its not equal man

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Originally by: Elisean

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 16/10/2009 10:11:15
Nerfing the Moros' drones is a sad attempt at curing an ailment by fixing one symptom rather than trying to cure the sickness.
Fixing aggro times and some of the ridiculously huge docking radii would be a much much better approach, but I guess that is too hard to do or something...

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So you HONESTLY believe a dread should do more damage with 5 drones, than a carrier with 10 fighters?

Stop commenting on nothing and reply to THIS FACT.

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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Future Phoenix DPS with kinetic torps, 3*dam mod: 6528
Future Phoenix max range with torps: 59km (~55km in reality)

Future Naglfar DPS with ACs w/EMP, torps, 3*gyro: 6884 (includes EMP change)
Future Naglfar range with ACs w/EMP: 28km optimal + 19km falloff

Future Moros DPS with blasters w/AM, 3*dam mod: 5833
Future Moros range with blasters w/AM: 28km optimal + 12.5km falloff

Current/future Revelation with pulses w/MF, 3*dam mod: 4666
Future Revelation range with pulses w/MF: 31km optimal + 6km falloff

5*Bouncer IIs add 262 DPS for Phoenix/Revelation/Naglfar, 525 DPS for future Moros.

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Originally by: Cheekything

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Hell the only reason it's "5 drones" is because CCP wanted to reduce the lag that what was it 15 drones from a Dominix caused, at that time I don't remember how much a Moros had but i'd guess it'd be about the same amount.

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Originally by: Amy Wang

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is the intention to punish all fotm crosstrainers and reward those that stuck with the Naglfar/Phoenix for so long?

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• train Cruise 5 (likely already in progress)


• train Citadel Cruise to some respectable level


• train Guided Missile Precision to some respectable level


• Have their friendly neighborhood arms dealer buy the citadel cruise launcher/missile BPOs and build them


• Buy/acquire said launchers and missiles and equip them to their dread

Originally by: Fuujin

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Dear CCP:

Please seed the Citadel Cruise missile skillbook BEFORE dominion, so Phoenix pilots have their uselessness time minimized--all other dread pilots will still be able to engage past 65KM once the patch hits, but Phoenix drivers will be impotent until they:

• train Cruise 5 (likely already in progress)


• train Citadel Cruise to some respectable level


• train Guided Missile Precision to some respectable level


• Have their friendly neighborhood arms dealer buy the citadel cruise launcher/missile BPOs and build them


• Buy/acquire said launchers and missiles and equip them to their dread

All of the close-range weapons are in the game already, even if they aren't really used because of poor stats/balancing. So all dreads will be able to have a close-range loadout from day 1 of the update. However, given that a lot of capital engagements happen from 80+ KM between the two groups--requiring long-range guns and the new cruises--this will result in a lot of pointless aggrivation on the caldari drivers unless they get a special snowflake warp/cyno.

Preferably the launcher and missile BPOs could be seeded in advance, but I understand if that is too problematic to consider pre-patch. The skillbook itself is harmless to the present game setup though.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128

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Originally by: Cheekything

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With any luck they will make it a capital missile skill book, otherwise that is very stupid since the other capital weapons dont have dual systems... even if the standard missiles.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: Fuujin

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Require cruise 5?

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Yes, just as the Torpedo launcher requires Torpedoes V. The skills will follow the same path as their smaller counterparts.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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There isn't any reason anymore to pick a Revelation over a Moros. That is NOT balanced.

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Originally by: Chi Quan

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unfortunately nobody really said what the moros is _intended_ to do. the description says it's good with drones ("perhaps the greatest capacity to fend off smaller hostiles"), but thats lolrp as one may note. still, if you intend to make up for the dps you took, a drone control range boost is imensly more valuable than extra damage with the large blasters.
reminder: the drones lock-on range is based on "electronic warfare drone interfacing", rigs and a hig slot mod, and still tops at about 75km max, beyond that your drones don't even attempt to target.
if you wanted to boost blasters, you aimed a gunsize too high.

i am not entierly sure if letting the SRguns+SRammo hit poses just by upping thier range is a good idea. you are shooting at the SHIELD first after all, and the shell of that big 30km radius ball should imho be the base of your calculations.

props to you Herschel for trying to bring some flavor to caps, nice ideas. they may need some tweaking, but they are good for a start.

more detailed and thought out post if i have the time (or the nerve).

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Originally by: DeviloftheHell

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Originally by: Chi Quan

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...

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what drone control range bonus? hmm? its max range 60km without any mod you will fit a drone range augmentor for a dread instead a gun or a siege modul? pathetic

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Originally by: Arra Lith

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Why caldari are again nerfed comparing to other races ?
Every race capital ship weapons require only 1 skill both for long and for short range guns - ie Capital Hybrid Weapons for Capital Blasters and Capital Hybrids. For Caldari you will need for short range Capital Torpedos and for long range Capital Cruise Missiles ? WTF ?

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Quote:

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Not mentioning those that trained for long range capital torpedos will now need to train again for cruises if they want long range weapon.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Stop whning about skill time. You don't have to train small and medium weapons to V to be able to use T2 large launchers or XL ones. That more than balance out the need for close and long range skill books.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128

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So the Pulse and Ion canons now are equivalents in effective range, tracking and RoF. Where they separate is in the damage mod, 6 for the Pulse and 8 for the Ion, and in cap usage.

When you take into account dread bonuses, a Ion on a moros significantly outdamage a Pulse on a Revelation, while using about half the cap. That is before we even add drones and the Moros drone bonus.

WTF, CCP?

There isn't any reason anymore to pick a Revelation over a Moros. That is NOT balanced.

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Originally by: Adam Ridgway

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Originally by: Devilish Ledoux

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Edited by: Devilish Ledoux on 13/10/2009 11:51:09
Personally, I'd rather see the Moros' drones be a backup weapon system (similar to other dreads) anyway, rather than vital to its ability to put out damage. I don't know how many T2 sentry drones I've lost to an unexpected capital bump after I'm in siege, but not having those drones is a pain in the butt. Never mind that the sentries have a very limited range, even with the best skills, so in a lot of fights, they're completely useless. I think the Moros should be a gunboat that gets to choose between relatively long range and relatively low damage (for a dreadnought anyway) or very high damage and short range (like any hybrid gunboat). Having extra space in the drone bay is nice and all, but having to depend on them (especially with the tendency of capitals to bump each other all over hell and gone) is incredibly frustrating.

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+1 on Moros being a gigant Mega instead of a gigant Dominix. People must realize how broken are currentlly drones bonus on Moros to kill subcapitals, IT'S NOT THEIR ROLE. Stop crying about that allready of give a decent reason why it should be kept as such. Otherwise you only want an unfair advantage other dreads don't have, nd also beign largelly useless in a lot of cap fights, were they must eb usefull, due to losing a big chunk of their DPS.

Drone bonus should be removed enterilley, maybe keep ane xtended drone bay for soem 'racial flavour' and cenetr their damage arround XL hybrids even more. This way they would be:
- easier to balance.
- not unbalancing against subcap fleets.
- not having the problem of losing big parts of their dps due to bumping, emergency jumping or whatever reason.

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Originally by: LTcyberT1000

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Edited by: LTcyberT1000 on 13/10/2009 12:31:34
Edited by: LTcyberT1000 on 13/10/2009 12:26:25
NOTE to CCP: Add bouncing physics with comparing to being bumped ship masses (The second Newton Law - http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/newton.html). That will make more realistic things like interceptor bouncing off dread/carier instead of dread/carier bouncing of frigatte-battleship class ships. In some patch you already tried to do something like that but seems it is not working well.

For supercariers, each fighter bomber torpedo does way too much damage and new version of 10 motherships can anihilate titan easily with them. The little example: 5000 dps tank on Chimera is broken easily from 25 fighter-bombers and each fighter bomber does 800-1000 damage to 80%+ resists.

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Originally by: ChinaWillGrowLarger

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Lasers are still better than every other turret in every way with no realistic downsides. What a ****ing surpise.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.

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Originally by: ChinaWillGrowLarger

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Lasers are still better than every other turret in every way with no realistic downsides. What a ****ing surpise.

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Originally by: Amy Wang

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Edited by: Amy Wang on 19/10/2009 10:00:46
The short-range damage and range figures need some overworking, nothing against increasing the short-range weapons effective range but making them all almost equal range wise while introducing massive dps differences makes no sense at all.

This is how it should be imho (without going into detail for the specific numbers):

Optimal range: Phoenix > Rev > Moros > Naglfar

Falloff: Naglfar > Moros > Rev

Dps: Naglfar > Moros > Rev > Phoenix
(but only slight differences, not the huge ones we see atm)

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Originally by: Arra Lith

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Stop whning about skill time. You don't have to train small and medium weapons to V to be able to use T2 large launchers or XL ones. That more than balance out the need for close and long range skill books.

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I dont see big difference between T1 missiles and guns training time ( and capital weapons are atm T1 only). You cant start training straight from torpedos, as you cant start training straight from Large Hybrid Turrets:

Missiles - Citadel Torpedos (enabling only short range capital weapon):
Missile Launcher Operation V
Torpedos V <- Heavy Missiles III <- Standard Missiles III <- Missile Launcher Operation II

Gunnery - Capital Hybrid Turrets (enabling both long range ans short range capital weapons)
Gunnery V
Large Hybrid Turret V <- Medium Hybrid Turret III <- Small Hybrid Turret III <- Gunnery I

I dont see here any requirements for T2 gunnery for capital weapons ?

As someone mentioned Citadel Torpedos skill should be renamed to Citadel Missiles - and this skill should be used for all capital missiles (both torpedo and cruise).

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