Originally by: CCP Abathur

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That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets

Part of the static update yesterday were a few changes to capital turrets. For a long time now (okay, ever since they were introduced), due to their stats it was hard to justify fitting the 'short range' XL turrets over their counterparts. Being unable to hit a large starbase tower within optimal range of their most damaging ammo was just one of the issues. We've taken a look at these weapons and have started by making a few initial changes.

Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128


Missiles

Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:

Old Value / New Value

Citadel Torp Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds

Citadel Torpedoes
Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds
Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500
Base Damage: 1800 / 2000

Citadel Cruise Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds

Citadel Cruise Missiles
Flight Time: 20 seconds
Base Velocity: 4250
Base Damage: 1800


That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets
That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.

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Originally by: Areo Hotah

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What will be the pre-reqs for Citadel Cruise?
If cruise V, another nerf for the Nag:
I now have to train a 3rd capital weapon, where as the Rev and Moros do with one (if you mention drones: I have to train them for the Nag as well, and I can use them on many sub-capital ships.)

---

Quote:

---

Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:

---

Quote:

---

That Moros issue... We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.

---

Originally by: CCP Abathur

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That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

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Originally by: Ragel Tropxe

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what plans do you have for

a/ exchanging current citadel torp launchers
b/ the cost of the new skillbook that may be needed (citadel cruise missiles)

issues

1. Cost and time - another skillbook and another skill to train

2. The current use of torps is more akin to the cruise missiles you seem to propose - if you exchange current torp launchers for new torp launchers then Phoenix and Dread Pilots will need to buy new cap modules to fit (80M isk or so) to use their Dread at long range.

3. what about the explosion radius of the two missile types? - I assume you will author the citadel cruise missiles to have a better explosion radius than the current citadel torps?

Give that you may now be asking Phoenix and Naglfar pilots to train another skill - there needs to be some compensation in terms of usage advantage to offset this.

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Originally by: Ragel Tropxe

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what plans do you have for

a/ exchanging current citadel torp launchers
b/ the cost of the new skillbook that may be needed (citadel cruise missiles)

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Ragel Tropxe

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what plans do you have for

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Originally by: Adam Ridgway

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To Moros pilots, you just need to realize how broken the thing is currentlly on TQ... I think this fix is a fair compromise so please stop crying again, Moros has to be on line with other dreads.

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Originally by: xttz

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Originally by: Adam Ridgway

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To Moros pilots, you just need to realize how broken the thing is currentlly on TQ... I think this fix is a fair compromise so please stop crying again, Moros has to be on line with other dreads.

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Just because random pirates use them to camp low-sec stations with immunity does not make the ship broken - just the aggro mechanics which allow that.

As it stands now, the Moros is the lowest dps dread with the most average EHP and a fairly weak tank. It could use another tweak to bring it on par for fleet work. Ideal options include:

+10% tracking per level
+20% drone control range per level (useful sentries!)
+5% armour hitpoints per level

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Originally by: Cheekything

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Firstly training 56+ days for Gallente Dread 5 doing the same as a Dominix with level 5 Battleship != cool.

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Quote:

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Most people only really train Battleship 5 because of the mega getting the sexy 25% bonus to tracking and to use the Moros.

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Originally by: Nikuno

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Honestly, can't you work through a coordinated approach?

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Originally by: Eheufaucan

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Gallente:

56,3 + 12,5 km Standard
28,1 + 12,5 km Short
90,0 + 12,5 km Long
(75,0 + 30,0 km with T2 Warden Sentry)

---

Originally by: CCP Abathur

---

Turrets

Part of the static update yesterday were a few changes to capital turrets. For a long time now (okay, ever since they were introduced), due to their stats it was hard to justify fitting the 'short range' XL turrets over their counterparts. Being unable to hit a large starbase tower within optimal range of their most damaging ammo was just one of the issues. We've taken a look at these weapons and have started by making a few initial changes.

Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128


Missiles

Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:

Old Value / New Value

Citadel Torp Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds

Citadel Torpedoes
Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds
Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500
Base Damage: 1800 / 2000

Citadel Cruise Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds

Citadel Cruise Missiles
Flight Time: 20 seconds
Base Velocity: 4250
Base Damage: 1800


That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

---

Originally by: anheuser

---

Citadel cruises look pretty good. Now we're just at the relative nit-picky levels. Cruises are still unlikely to be used in the big alliances because they can't snipe all the way out to 250km with the same setup as the other dreads.

If you look the big alliance killboards, we all seem to fit our sniping dreads roughly the same: 1 T2 falloff rig and the tracking computer with range script. This will get you all the way out to the 250km limit (moros can do it without the TC). With cruise missiles, there's no equivalent to the tracking computer, so you're always going to be limited more in range. Given a similar setup (and assuming max skills for Projection and Bombardment), you'll get only out to 230km ((4.25km * 1.5 * 1.2) * 20 * 1.5). To make it to 250km, you need a second T1 rig. The result is less tank for these ships compared to their gun siblings because of the additional rig slot needed.

To really bring them back in to contention with the others dreads in the big alliance game, the numbers need to be tweaked just slightly to get that extra 20km out of them. If you bring the speed up to 4600m/s for the cruises, they'll hit out to 248km, which would be good enough. 4650 gets it just over the line for 250km, which is our ultimate goal. While you could change the flight time, then you'd still suffer the same problem of needing 30s to reach the target - two volleys from gun dreads have passed in that time, so unacceptable.

The alternate would be to introduce an equivalent to the tracking computer for missile range boost, or just modify the TC to have a missile range script to do the same thing. Scripted with a 30% range increase would be nice.

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Originally by: anheuser

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The alternate would be to introduce an equivalent to the tracking computer for missile range boost, or just modify the TC to have a missile range script to do the same thing. Scripted with a 30% range increase would be nice.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets
6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

---

Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets
6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

---

Originally by: Norris Packard

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Missiles people are complaining about the same issues that every turret boat has, you could always fit the long range ones if you are worried about being able to always hit.

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Originally by: Eheufaucan

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Edited by: Eheufaucan on 11/10/2009 12:50:51

Originally by: Norris Packard

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Missiles people are complaining about the same issues that every turret boat has, you could always fit the long range ones if you are worried about being able to always hit.

---

But Missile users now have to choose whether they fit long range/low dps or short range/high dps launchers - and I guess most will fit the long range ones to make sure they can always hit the target. Turret users still can fit the short range guns and switch to long range ammo at any time during the fight. Just look at the numbers:

78+ 6 km Amarr
90+12 km Gallente
90+18 km Minmatar

These are short range guns with long range ammo. Of course they do less damage but still Gallente and Minmatar can hit targets over 100km away - I repeat - with SHORT RANGE GUNS!

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

---

Originally by: Mya ElleTerego

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Edited by: Mya ElleTerego on 11/10/2009 13:27:00
Please dont listen to the whiners, station humping moros is about as weaksauce as you can get at pvp. Please nerf non sieged moros drone dps to hell. Thanks. If they hit siege green they should get it back imo, but not until then.
Also will a phoenix even be able to hit a large control tower with torps with that terribad range?

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Originally by: Mya ElleTerego

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Also will a phoenix even be able to hit a large control tower with torps with that terribad range?

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Originally by: Christos Hendez

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Suggestion:

Change current Citadel Torpedoes skill to Citadel Missiles.

Since there is no T2 capital missile launcher (much like no t2 XL turrets) this should be the only pre-req skill for Torpedoes AND Cruise launchers.

If you insist on making Citadel Torpedos (skill) and Citadel Cruise Missiles (skill) then i request that you also make Capital Pulse, Capital Beam (ETC)

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Originally by: Cheekything

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Originally by: Christos Hendez

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Suggestion:

Change current Citadel Torpedoes skill to Citadel Missiles.

Since there is no T2 capital missile launcher (much like no t2 XL turrets) this should be the only pre-req skill for Torpedoes AND Cruise launchers.

If you insist on making Citadel Torpedos (skill) and Citadel Cruise Missiles (skill) then i request that you also make Capital Pulse, Capital Beam (ETC)

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That or give us tech 2 capital stuff its about times

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Originally by: Eheufaucan

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First: the training time.

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Originally by: Areo Hotah

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What will be the pre-reqs for Citadel Cruise?
If cruise V, another nerf for the Nag:
I now have to train a 3rd capital weapon, where as the Rev and Moros do with one (if you mention drones: I have to train them for the Nag as well, and I can use them on many sub-capital ships.)

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Originally by: Eheufaucan

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Gallente:

56,3 + 12,5 km Standard
28,1 + 12,5 km Short
90,0 + 12,5 km Long
(75,0 + 30,0 km with T2 Warden Sentry)

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Originally by: VENOM2k99

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It's nice trying to make Phoenixes more realible\pratical to shoot POS and module. But having 2 diferent modules make no sense at all.

While other dreads will only need to switch ammo, the phoenixes will have to refit???

Why dont a new Citadel missile launcher is introduce and two type of missiles? Long and short. That will make more sense.

I hope this will change :)

thank you

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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I really, really hope that I'm overlooking something here.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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How do they compare when fit for sniping? My understanding was that the Revelation was the "best" long-range dread, does that still hold true?

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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How do they compare when fit for sniping? My understanding was that the Revelation was the "best" long-range dread, does that still hold true?

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Originally by: GHO57

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You are overlooking something pretty obvious. 28-31kms is still worthless in capital fight, it cannot even shoot towers.¦

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Quote:

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That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.

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Originally by: Tiger's Spirit

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Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 12/10/2009 15:23:47
Range of capital torps is 26500m ? :D
It's a joke ?

All dread short range weapon can shot to 60km after change without skills, but capital torps is 26500m ? Moros drones to 20% damage nerf ?
Why ? Station huggin ? When a thanatos goes to station huggin, will be change the fighters ? The problems is the redock time .
Oh my....... another unlogic changes from new CCP guys.
Guys please use grey matter and change the main problem not the caused things.

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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If in range, 5*Bouncer IIs add 262 DPS for Phoenix/Revelation/Naglfar, 525 DPS for future Moros.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets
6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

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Originally by: FT Cold

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Congrats CCP, way to nerf the Amarr buff everyone else... yet again... (except for the nano nerf, I'm sorry minmatar).

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Originally by: FT Cold

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Congrats CCP, way to nerf the Amarr buff everyone else... yet again... (except for the nano nerf, I'm sorry minmatar).

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Revelation has had its time in the sun. If the Phoenix gets to be 'no longer the worst dread ever' for a while I don't really see a huge issue.

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Originally by: kwix

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I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros

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Originally by: Fuujin

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Reminder to CCP: Please include faction citadel cruises on release of Dominion, and not forget about the missile users (again) for a year. Thanks!

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Originally by: Fuujin

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Some fleshed out stats of the citadel cruises would be nice...are they affected by guided missile precision?

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Originally by: Fuujin

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Require cruise 5?

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Originally by: Fuujin

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What will the fitting requirements be?

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Should the 'short rage' weapons ignore starbase shooting and have shorter optimals and more falloff for capital engagements? How much damage would you like to see these weapons doing? Should we look at the long range turrets as well? These are just some of the questions you can base your feedback on. We put these changes out early in order to hear from you. Those of you who have already responded with numbers & solid comments, thank you.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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And now seriously:

- bump moros and rev close range damage a bit (at least to lower 6000's with 3 damage mods)

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: kwix

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I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros

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No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.

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Originally by: Kreonny

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I understand what you want to do, but 45 km optimal - it's not the minmatar style. It may be good decisions, and all other minmatars will be happyà But true minmatars know û auto canon with such optimal û itÆs fantastic, itÆs just can ænot be. If your goal û give auto cannons more damage than artillery on short range û make XL auto cannons + 10% dmg mode , 12 km optimal and 60 km falloff. It will be like auto canon, not like Gatling XL artillery. And still can make more damage in 0-45km range than artillery.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: Fuujin

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Some fleshed out stats of the citadel cruises would be nice...are they affected by guided missile precision?

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If it affects the torpedoes, it will affect the cruises.

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Originally by: Zarazaa

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Is this a ****ing joke!?
Pulling numbers out of ones ass it's not what EVE is about Abathur.. this is beyond ridiculous, is insulting..
Is the 'pirate ship reballance' all over again, let's pull some numbers out of our asses and see if it works or not, ofcourse it has nothing to do with scaling, racial specifics or even racial falvor.. but who cares!

Abathur, there are problems with Turrets and Missile Launchers at almost every lvl, from Rockets to large Blasters and ofc Capital sized ones.. and seeing your unique way of dealing with them makes me wonder if anyone actualy has a clue about wtf he's doing over there..

You have two excellent balancing tools, Scaling and the Bonus Sistem, all you need is a decent base concept but instead you do this ****..
If you wanna do it right, rethink the Small Turrets and Missile Launchers, inplement different Scaling values for each race or even weapon sistem where is needed, more so implement different Scaling values for specific Weapon attributs as Optimal Range or Falloff for example, and come up with a decent end product that will work for all races with the current Bonus Sistem, or an overhauled bonus sistem... and we won't see 259% per lvl bonus to lameness again.

I could write 10 more pages, but it's pointless anyway..

ps. If you're Seleene you're simply clueless mate, stop ****ing up the game.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: kwix

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I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros

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No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: kwix

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I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros

---

No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.

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Quote:

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None of this is being done in an attempt to nerf or boost any one ship. Trying to guess about why this is being done is not helpful.

---

Quote:

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These weapons need to be fixed. I don't think anyone wants them to remain they way they are currently on TQ and with a little tweaking we can provide capital pilots a bit more of a dynamic in how they can use their ships.

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Quote:

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If you really want to affect change, get onto SiSi and test them out.

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Quote:

---

Should the 'short rage' weapons ignore starbase shooting and have shorter optimals and more falloff for capital engagements? How much damage would you like to see these weapons doing? Should we look at the long range turrets as well? These are just some of the questions you can base your feedback on. We put these changes out early in order to hear from you. Those of you who have already responded with numbers & solid comments, thank you.

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Originally by: Jason Edwards

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: kwix

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I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros

---

No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.

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Buff fighters? Everyone knows they are uberweaksauce ever since the tracking nerf. I practically never use them outside of sisi. Only used on sisi because they are 100isk each.

1109dps with 5 ogre 2s.
1250dps with 10 fighters from thanatos.
1000dps for other carriers.

Buff fighters? Just toss 50% more dps to fighters. Issue fixed.

Quote:

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None of this is being done in an attempt to nerf or boost any one ship. Trying to guess about why this is being done is not helpful.

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There has to be a reason for the nerf. We would simply like to know why. Afaik ccp doesnt throw a dart at a poster the size of a titan trying to figure out what to nerf.

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Originally by: Walker Bulldog

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Their intention is to make short range guns preferred at typical large tower busting ranges, and if they do it your way, and give auto cannons enough damage to have parity with other guns that deep into falloff, they'll absolutely DESTROY at optimal. Conversely, if they give auto cannons similar damage to blasters/pulses at optimal, but make the optimal that short, they'll be gimped and no one will use them, which goes completely against the idea of the change.

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Originally by: Kreonny

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We donÆt play the game, were all weapon systems need to be the same. 10% DPS donÆt make auto cannons overpower. In ôdeepö falloff? 60km falloff û 30-45 km POS attack range. All matar systems do the same. Why XL should have optimal more then falloff?

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Old Value / New Value
Citadel Torpedoes
Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds

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Originally by: Devilish Ledoux

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Edited by: Devilish Ledoux on 13/10/2009 11:51:09
Personally, I'd rather see the Moros' drones be a backup weapon system (similar to other dreads) anyway, rather than vital to its ability to put out damage. I don't know how many T2 sentry drones I've lost to an unexpected capital bump after I'm in siege, but not having those drones is a pain in the butt. Never mind that the sentries have a very limited range, even with the best skills, so in a lot of fights, they're completely useless. I think the Moros should be a gunboat that gets to choose between relatively long range and relatively low damage (for a dreadnought anyway) or very high damage and short range (like any hybrid gunboat). Having extra space in the drone bay is nice and all, but having to depend on them (especially with the tendency of capitals to bump each other all over hell and gone) is incredibly frustrating.

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Originally by: Walker Bulldog

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Optimal + Falloff = 37.6% DPS. With 7.5km optimal (sharpshooter 5 + EMP ammo) and 75km falloff (60km + trajectory analysis 5), a dread sitting at 40km will be almost halfway into falloff, and lose a good 30-40% of its base DPS. Therefore, either Naglfar becomes greatly inferior at typical combat distance, or greatly superior at point blank range if the base damage is adjusted to match other dreads at 40km. The latter gets nerfed the next patch, the former sends naglfar pilots cross-training into revelations.

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Originally by: Kreonny

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You are looking at it, as a balancing. And forget about game desining. I started to train skills to pilot Naglfar, when it was the worst dread. It was smaller DPS, has no good tank, need much more skills. I agree to ride worst close range dread, as all other minmatars ships in close. Now Naglfar become good dread. But it still minmatar ship! I don't want 45 km optimal ang 15 km falloff, only becouse of balans. All Minmatar auto cannons is the same - short optimal and good falloff. For example 425mm auto cannons do less damage on 15 km range then 720 artillery. It's normal for minmatars ships. No need to make all ships equal! Each race has pluses and minuses, and good to make the differents greater.

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Originally by: Shinma Apollo

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A boost to drone control range would really help the moros out a bit, even if it's a siege only thing

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Originally by: LoveKebab

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Edited by: LoveKebab on 13/10/2009 22:16:55

Originally by: Shinma Apollo

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A boost to drone control range would really help the moros out a bit, even if it's a siege only thing

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yea u gonna be able to use heavy drones at 150-200km (giving avrage speed of 900m/s they will get at 150km in under 3 minutes...

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: Fuujin

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Require cruise 5?

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Yes, just as the Torpedo launcher requires Torpedoes V. The skills will follow the same path as their smaller counterparts.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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The tracking has been nerfed because it was honestly just too good and we also didn't want to see Titans blasting apart HACs with ease.

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Originally by: GHO57

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: kwix

---

I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros

---

No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.

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And why is this a problem, as a maxed out carrier with 10 fighters deals a lot less DPS than a 50 mil battleship? Carriers in their current stae are nothing more than logistics capital ships. And a maxed out thanatos still does a lot more DPS than moros. Carriers can fit DCUs and so on, sorry but this reasoning seems a little odd to me. It's the dread's personality, nerfing will just make it the gallente variant of the Rev. We all want balansed ships with their strong and weak sides, but we don't want everyone to fly the same ships.

Yeah, you probably want to make people support their dread fleets with subcaps. Sadly, this has never been a issue, there have been thousands of cap battles, I personally fought dread in RRBSes quite a few times and moros drones were never such a big problem. testing on Sisi a single moros is hardly comparable to the ways it's used on TQ.

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Originally by: EFT Worrier

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I agree, what's wrong with 1100 drone DPS for the dreadnought whose description clearly marks it as being the most versatile and having "the greatest capacity to fend off smaller hostiles by itself".

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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the Naglfar the agile one

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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and hopefully no more "Naglfail" jokes.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 14/10/2009 16:50:36
The second option is, I think, the right one, or at least the more interesting one. Give each dread a clearly defined role. At a guess, I'd make the Moros the short-range one, the Revelation the long-range one, the Phoenix the tanky one, and the Naglfar the agile one. Keep as a balance point that they should all do roughly the same damage to a large tower(say 4k or so?), assuming that the new sovereignty modules have a similar radius of bubble on them, but make them different at other stats:
- The Moros should be designed largely for being dropped into enemy dread blobs and beating the crap out of them with heavily-buffed blasters and drones. Keep drones as they are, at least in siege, because there is nothing wrong with a Moros being able to defend itself(that is, in fact, the whole point of drones), and make guns balanced around the fact that the Moros is a pseudocarrier in combat.
- The Rev should have mediocre pulses, but very good beams. Give them crap tracking, because they're supposed to shoot dreads anyways, but by far the best long-range DPS.
- The Phoenix can get one of the launcher bonuses just put into the actual stats of the missile launchers, and replaced with shield resists, so it can tank any doomsday and have about twice the active tank of any other dread. Also, give it the second-best cap, after the Rev, so that it can actually run its tank. It should do decent DPS, but have by far the highest EHP/DPS ratio - you won't deal as much as a Rev, but it'll cost the enemy way more DPS to shoot at it than it'll cost you to field it.
- The Nag should be solid all-around, but nothing special on DPS/EHP. Instead, give it the jump range of a carrier, a 5-minute siege cycle, far better agility, faster targeting speed, and other such bonuses. I don't know how much of this stuff it'll take to make verticality not its primary virtue, but give it as much as it takes, and probably a bit more.

On overall DPS/range, the Nag and Phoe should be about even, with the Moros above them at close range and the Rev above them at long range. The four should all meet at about 35km.

Like I said, this is paper balance, but I think it's at least an interesting approach. You wind up with clear roles on the capital battlefield, rough parity at POS bashing(and hopefully at whatever sov mechanic will replace POS bashing), and hopefully no more "Naglfail" jokes.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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the Naglfar the agile one

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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and hopefully no more "Naglfail" jokes.

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I see.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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the Naglfar the agile one

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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and hopefully no more "Naglfail" jokes.

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I see.

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Two things. One, it should still do good DPS and have a good tank - it'd probably be the second-best tanker, and it'd do as much DPS as a Phoenix, or a Rev/Moros built for its less-good range. Two, it's possible to have meaningful bonuses to things other than DPS and EHP. If you spend 10 seconds less targeting something, that's tens of thousands of extra damage dealt. If you're locked into siege for half as long, that's way less often you get trapped and killed. Sure, it doesn't show up in the raw EFT numbers, but it'll matter in combat.

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Originally by: Mr Opinions

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Two things. One, it should still do good DPS and have a good tank - it'd probably be the second-best tanker, and it'd do as much DPS as a Phoenix, or a Rev/Moros built for its less-good range. Two, it's possible to have meaningful bonuses to things other than DPS and EHP. If you spend 10 seconds less targeting something, that's tens of thousands of extra damage dealt. If you're locked into siege for half as long, that's way less often you get trapped and killed. Sure, it doesn't show up in the raw EFT numbers, but it'll matter in combat.

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So in the spirit of agile, you're hinting at some minmatar-only capital ship bonus of "80% reduction in duration and fuel use of siege modules" ?

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Originally by: Vestus Regula

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Originally by: Blazde

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(...) The Revelation has 5% to rof bonus (ie. +33% dps at level 5) which is unheard of among other Amarr ships.(...)

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Omen, Navy Omen, Zealot, Armageddon, Redeemer, Absolution... as a matter of fact, most amarr ship that have a damage bonus to laser turrets have a rof bonus instead of a damage bonus.

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Originally by: Hun Jakuza

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Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 13/10/2009 05:38:34

Originally by: Jason Edwards

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: kwix

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I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros

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No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.

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Buff fighters? Everyone knows they are uberweaksauce ever since the tracking nerf. I practically never use them outside of sisi. Only used on sisi because they are 100isk each.

1109dps with 5 ogre 2s.
1250dps with 10 fighters from thanatos.
1000dps for other carriers.

Buff fighters? Just toss 50% more dps to fighters. Issue fixed.

Quote:

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None of this is being done in an attempt to nerf or boost any one ship. Trying to guess about why this is being done is not helpful.

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There has to be a reason for the nerf. We would simply like to know why. Afaik ccp doesnt throw a dart at a poster the size of a titan trying to figure out what to nerf.

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Agreed and an other things.
Fighters faster than 4-5X times as Ogres. Carriers can send their fighters over than 100km without drone link augmentor.

Carriers can using DCU.
+2 DCU on thanatos 1500DPS with 12 fighters.
+5DCU on thanatos 1875DPS with 15 fighters.

But i dont understand what is the context between fighters and the moros damage. Nothing!

Leave the Moros alone! Change redock time (main problem) with criminal flag and station huggin it's over.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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- The Nag should be solid all-around, but nothing special on DPS/EHP. Instead, give it the jump range of a carrier, a 5-minute siege cycle, far better agility, faster targeting speed, and other such bonuses.

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Originally by: Walker Bulldog

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That's right, give agility bonuses to the ship that can't ****ing move! Do you realize yet how stupid this sounds? Jump range bonus would be completely useless - dreads are not solo ships, and fleet jump range is determined by lowest common denominator, not the highest. Ditto siege duration - you have 50 dreads in fleet, three, MAYBE five of them Naglfars (yes, those are real numbers) - do you think anyone will care that you have to click siege 5 times where other dreads do it once? The only effect would be you zoning out, setting siege red when FC orders all the other dreads to do it, and then dropping out early and wasting time re-sieging and re-locking your target. Faster targeting speed - again, nobody cares, it's not like you're shooting pods and ceptors, the tower isn't going anywhere.

So, yeah, it's obvious you've never participated in a dread op, because your suggestion are full of fail

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Originally by: Vestus Regula

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It's good to see something done about the Phoenix, but I'd like to point out that the relation betweet turret range / torp range is way messed up in these figures. Just comparing neutron blaster cannons to torps (both in unbonused ships / characters) is enough to reach that conclusion. Sure, the new rof should somewhat make up in terms of dps, but I don't think it'll be enough to match guns in most scenarios.

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Quote:

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Future Phoenix DPS with kinetic torps, 3*dam mod: 6528
Future Phoenix max range with torps: 59km (~55km in reality)

Future Naglfar DPS with ACs w/EMP, torps, 3*gyro: 6884 (includes EMP change)
Future Naglfar range with ACs w/EMP: 28km optimal + 19km falloff

Future Moros DPS with blasters w/AM, 3*dam mod: 5833
Future Moros range with blasters w/AM: 28km optimal + 12.5km falloff

Current/future Revelation with pulses w/MF, 3*dam mod: 4666
Future Revelation range with pulses w/MF: 31km optimal + 6km falloff

5*Bouncer IIs add 262 DPS for Phoenix/Revelation/Naglfar, 525 DPS for future Moros.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Dreads aren't always sieged up

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Quote:

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I know that jump range is lowest common denominator as well

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Quote:

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it lets you move Nags with carriers

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Quote:

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Sig resolution gives you faster target switching and lets you apply DPS sooner, which ups your real-world DPS a fair bit(depending on length of engagement, of course).

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Alternately, a Nag pilot could strip the sensor booster for another invuln, and jack up their tank without gimping their targeting ability any more than any other dread.

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Quote:

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Siege time has two primary effects - one, it lets you shift range twice as often when the enemy drops dreads at a poor range for you, and two it lets you at least save some dreads when things go totally wrong. Better to get 5 Nags out and lose 45 others than to just lose 50 straight up, after all.

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Quote:

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I want a fourth for the Nag, and a pile of "agility" buffs seems the natural way to go.

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Originally by: M Lindh

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5 min siege and carrier range jumps are good for hotdrops witch plays good with other minni ships (fast high DPS), it's a good ide but might need some other chages too.

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Originally by: Walker Bulldog

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Originally by: M Lindh

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5 min siege and carrier range jumps are good for hotdrops witch plays good with other minni ships (fast high DPS), it's a good ide but might need some other chages too.

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And who, exactly, are you going to hotdrop all by your lonesome? Newsflash: due to Naglfar being the epitome of sucktitude for years on end (disclaimer: I've been flying one since last November) almost nobody uses them. In a typical dread fleet, they compose less than 10% of total numbers. Right now they're good, and people might start training for them again, and maybe, just MAYBE in a year or so, out of 50-60 dreads dropping on a target, 15 will be Naglfars, but if you nerf their dps and tank AGAIN, nobody will be using their awesome agility bonuses because nobody will be flying them at all.

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Quote:

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A dread not in siege is a very slow and expensive battleship. If you aren't going to siege, don't bring dreads.

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Quote:

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The entire fleet - dreads, carriers, and on longer trips, jump freighters carrying fuel and stront, always moves together, along a pre-planned cyno route, with staged cyno ships.

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Quote:

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Dreads have three lengths of engagement: 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes.

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Quote:

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The primary purpose of the sensor booster is to let you target at long range if you get hotdropped. Scan resolution is just gravy.

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Quote:

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Also, have you ever been to 0.0? There's this wondrous thing called "bubble" which stops you from warping or jumping.

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Quote:

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if you nerf their dps and tank AGAIN, nobody will be using their awesome agility bonuses because nobody will be flying them at all.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 16/10/2009 10:11:15
Nerfing the Moros' drones is a sad attempt at curing an ailment by fixing one symptom rather than trying to cure the sickness.
Fixing aggro times and some of the ridiculously huge docking radii would be a much much better approach, but I guess that is too hard to do or something...

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Originally by: Elisean

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 16/10/2009 10:11:15
Nerfing the Moros' drones is a sad attempt at curing an ailment by fixing one symptom rather than trying to cure the sickness.
Fixing aggro times and some of the ridiculously huge docking radii would be a much much better approach, but I guess that is too hard to do or something...

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So you HONESTLY believe a dread should do more damage with 5 drones, than a carrier with 10 fighters?

Stop commenting on nothing and reply to THIS FACT.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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For the turrets, the stats in the OP are essentially based around making sure that the short range turrets can effectively hit a large POS within their optimal range. If some of you feel that is 'too much' then feel free to explain why and what you'd rather see.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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None of this is being done in an attempt to nerf or boost any one ship. Trying to guess about why this is being done is not helpful. These weapons need to be fixed. I don't think anyone wants them to remain they way they are currently on TQ and with a little tweaking we can provide capital pilots a bit more of a dynamic in how they can use their ships. If you really want to affect change, get onto SiSi and test them out. Provide constructive feedback on how you would like to see these weapons used.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Should the 'short rage' weapons ignore starbase shooting and have shorter optimals and more falloff for capital engagements? How much damage would you like to see these weapons doing? Should we look at the long range turrets as well? These are just some of the questions you can base your feedback on. We put these changes out early in order to hear from you. Those of you who have already responded with numbers & solid comments, thank you.

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Originally by: Major Hunt

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Pulse should be the longest range short range weapon, as it is in every other ship class in EvE. Dont break your own convention! Blasters should be the highest DPS, but the shortest range. If they require you to fit different ammo to shoot a POS, so be it. All weapons should not instantly be able to do xxx just because another race can. The variety in EvE is the fact that out of the box solutions are sometimes required to make a weapon/ship viable in a role. Autocannons should have 2x the falloff of thier optimal, as is the convention.

Short range weapons should be that, short range. Amarr have an advantage in range, but lack as muc DPS. Minmatar have huge falloff and variable damage type. Gal have high DPS, but need to be close as possible.

As for the weapons purpose, make them anti capital. Forget the POS, its not a viable option to shoot POS without breaking every convention you have already in place for weapon classes. Leave the variety in the weapons stats.

If you really want to make short range capital turrets an option for shooting POS, give them a range bonus whilest in siege only! eg 100% range bonus whilest in siege

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets

Part of the static update yesterday were a few changes to capital turrets. For a long time now (okay, ever since they were introduced), due to their stats it was hard to justify fitting the 'short range' XL turrets over their counterparts. Being unable to hit a large starbase tower within optimal range of their most damaging ammo was just one of the issues. We've taken a look at these weapons and have started by making a few initial changes.

Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128


Missiles

Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:

Old Value / New Value

Citadel Torp Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds

Citadel Torpedoes
Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds
Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500
Base Damage: 1800 / 2000

Citadel Cruise Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds

Citadel Cruise Missiles
Flight Time: 20 seconds
Base Velocity: 4250
Base Damage: 1800


That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

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Originally by: DeviloftheHell

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Edited by: DeviloftheHell on 17/10/2009 07:35:58

Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Turrets

Part of the static update yesterday were a few changes to capital turrets. For a long time now (okay, ever since they were introduced), due to their stats it was hard to justify fitting the 'short range' XL turrets over their counterparts. Being unable to hit a large starbase tower within optimal range of their most damaging ammo was just one of the issues. We've taken a look at these weapons and have started by making a few initial changes.

Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128


Missiles

Next up, within the next week, Citadel Torpedoes and launchers will see their stats change dramatically and we will introduce Citadel Cruise Missiles and launchers. Phoenix pilots, rejoice! While these changes will not hit SiSi for another week or so, we can give you the the current working stats:

Old Value / New Value

Citadel Torp Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds / 33 seconds

Citadel Torpedoes
Flight Time: 20 seconds / 7.5 seconds
Base Velocity: 2750 / 3500
Base Damage: 1800 / 2000

Citadel Cruise Launcher I
RoF: 48 seconds

Citadel Cruise Missiles
Flight Time: 20 seconds
Base Velocity: 4250
Base Damage: 1800


That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


As always, numbers are subject to change and we look forward to your constructive feedback.

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greet you nerfing the moros and boosting the phoenix with cruise missiles what does almost the same damage as the torp to longer distance congrat you are really idiots..
edit
15%+ damage to guns and 150% dmg nerf to drones its not equal man

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Originally by: Elisean

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 16/10/2009 10:11:15
Nerfing the Moros' drones is a sad attempt at curing an ailment by fixing one symptom rather than trying to cure the sickness.
Fixing aggro times and some of the ridiculously huge docking radii would be a much much better approach, but I guess that is too hard to do or something...

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So you HONESTLY believe a dread should do more damage with 5 drones, than a carrier with 10 fighters?

Stop commenting on nothing and reply to THIS FACT.

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Originally by: Theron Gyrow

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Future Phoenix DPS with kinetic torps, 3*dam mod: 6528
Future Phoenix max range with torps: 59km (~55km in reality)

Future Naglfar DPS with ACs w/EMP, torps, 3*gyro: 6884 (includes EMP change)
Future Naglfar range with ACs w/EMP: 28km optimal + 19km falloff

Future Moros DPS with blasters w/AM, 3*dam mod: 5833
Future Moros range with blasters w/AM: 28km optimal + 12.5km falloff

Current/future Revelation with pulses w/MF, 3*dam mod: 4666
Future Revelation range with pulses w/MF: 31km optimal + 6km falloff

5*Bouncer IIs add 262 DPS for Phoenix/Revelation/Naglfar, 525 DPS for future Moros.

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Originally by: Cheekything

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Hell the only reason it's "5 drones" is because CCP wanted to reduce the lag that what was it 15 drones from a Dominix caused, at that time I don't remember how much a Moros had but i'd guess it'd be about the same amount.

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Originally by: Amy Wang

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is the intention to punish all fotm crosstrainers and reward those that stuck with the Naglfar/Phoenix for so long?

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• train Cruise 5 (likely already in progress)


• train Citadel Cruise to some respectable level


• train Guided Missile Precision to some respectable level


• Have their friendly neighborhood arms dealer buy the citadel cruise launcher/missile BPOs and build them


• Buy/acquire said launchers and missiles and equip them to their dread

Originally by: Fuujin

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Dear CCP:

Please seed the Citadel Cruise missile skillbook BEFORE dominion, so Phoenix pilots have their uselessness time minimized--all other dread pilots will still be able to engage past 65KM once the patch hits, but Phoenix drivers will be impotent until they:

• train Cruise 5 (likely already in progress)


• train Citadel Cruise to some respectable level


• train Guided Missile Precision to some respectable level


• Have their friendly neighborhood arms dealer buy the citadel cruise launcher/missile BPOs and build them


• Buy/acquire said launchers and missiles and equip them to their dread

All of the close-range weapons are in the game already, even if they aren't really used because of poor stats/balancing. So all dreads will be able to have a close-range loadout from day 1 of the update. However, given that a lot of capital engagements happen from 80+ KM between the two groups--requiring long-range guns and the new cruises--this will result in a lot of pointless aggrivation on the caldari drivers unless they get a special snowflake warp/cyno.

Preferably the launcher and missile BPOs could be seeded in advance, but I understand if that is too problematic to consider pre-patch. The skillbook itself is harmless to the present game setup though.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128

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Originally by: Cheekything

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With any luck they will make it a capital missile skill book, otherwise that is very stupid since the other capital weapons dont have dual systems... even if the standard missiles.

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Originally by: Fuujin

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Require cruise 5?

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Yes, just as the Torpedo launcher requires Torpedoes V. The skills will follow the same path as their smaller counterparts.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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There isn't any reason anymore to pick a Revelation over a Moros. That is NOT balanced.

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Originally by: Chi Quan

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unfortunately nobody really said what the moros is _intended_ to do. the description says it's good with drones ("perhaps the greatest capacity to fend off smaller hostiles"), but thats lolrp as one may note. still, if you intend to make up for the dps you took, a drone control range boost is imensly more valuable than extra damage with the large blasters.
reminder: the drones lock-on range is based on "electronic warfare drone interfacing", rigs and a hig slot mod, and still tops at about 75km max, beyond that your drones don't even attempt to target.
if you wanted to boost blasters, you aimed a gunsize too high.

i am not entierly sure if letting the SRguns+SRammo hit poses just by upping thier range is a good idea. you are shooting at the SHIELD first after all, and the shell of that big 30km radius ball should imho be the base of your calculations.

props to you Herschel for trying to bring some flavor to caps, nice ideas. they may need some tweaking, but they are good for a start.

more detailed and thought out post if i have the time (or the nerve).

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Originally by: DeviloftheHell

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Originally by: Chi Quan

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...

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what drone control range bonus? hmm? its max range 60km without any mod you will fit a drone range augmentor for a dread instead a gun or a siege modul? pathetic

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Originally by: Arra Lith

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Why caldari are again nerfed comparing to other races ?
Every race capital ship weapons require only 1 skill both for long and for short range guns - ie Capital Hybrid Weapons for Capital Blasters and Capital Hybrids. For Caldari you will need for short range Capital Torpedos and for long range Capital Cruise Missiles ? WTF ?

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Quote:

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Not mentioning those that trained for long range capital torpedos will now need to train again for cruises if they want long range weapon.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Stop whning about skill time. You don't have to train small and medium weapons to V to be able to use T2 large launchers or XL ones. That more than balance out the need for close and long range skill books.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Originally by: CCP Abathur

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Old Value / New Value

Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I
Optimal Range: 12 / 45
Falloff: 20 / 10
Damage Mod: 7 / 8
Tracking: 0.02165 / 0.010825

6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108

Dual Giga Pulse Laser I
Optimal Range: 40 / 50
Falloff: 16 / 5
Tracking: 0.01688 / 0.010128

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So the Pulse and Ion canons now are equivalents in effective range, tracking and RoF. Where they separate is in the damage mod, 6 for the Pulse and 8 for the Ion, and in cap usage.

When you take into account dread bonuses, a Ion on a moros significantly outdamage a Pulse on a Revelation, while using about half the cap. That is before we even add drones and the Moros drone bonus.

WTF, CCP?

There isn't any reason anymore to pick a Revelation over a Moros. That is NOT balanced.

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Originally by: Adam Ridgway

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Originally by: Devilish Ledoux

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Edited by: Devilish Ledoux on 13/10/2009 11:51:09
Personally, I'd rather see the Moros' drones be a backup weapon system (similar to other dreads) anyway, rather than vital to its ability to put out damage. I don't know how many T2 sentry drones I've lost to an unexpected capital bump after I'm in siege, but not having those drones is a pain in the butt. Never mind that the sentries have a very limited range, even with the best skills, so in a lot of fights, they're completely useless. I think the Moros should be a gunboat that gets to choose between relatively long range and relatively low damage (for a dreadnought anyway) or very high damage and short range (like any hybrid gunboat). Having extra space in the drone bay is nice and all, but having to depend on them (especially with the tendency of capitals to bump each other all over hell and gone) is incredibly frustrating.

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+1 on Moros being a gigant Mega instead of a gigant Dominix. People must realize how broken are currentlly drones bonus on Moros to kill subcapitals, IT'S NOT THEIR ROLE. Stop crying about that allready of give a decent reason why it should be kept as such. Otherwise you only want an unfair advantage other dreads don't have, nd also beign largelly useless in a lot of cap fights, were they must eb usefull, due to losing a big chunk of their DPS.

Drone bonus should be removed enterilley, maybe keep ane xtended drone bay for soem 'racial flavour' and cenetr their damage arround XL hybrids even more. This way they would be:
- easier to balance.
- not unbalancing against subcap fleets.
- not having the problem of losing big parts of their dps due to bumping, emergency jumping or whatever reason.

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Originally by: LTcyberT1000

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Edited by: LTcyberT1000 on 13/10/2009 12:31:34
Edited by: LTcyberT1000 on 13/10/2009 12:26:25
NOTE to CCP: Add bouncing physics with comparing to being bumped ship masses (The second Newton Law - http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/newton.html). That will make more realistic things like interceptor bouncing off dread/carier instead of dread/carier bouncing of frigatte-battleship class ships. In some patch you already tried to do something like that but seems it is not working well.

For supercariers, each fighter bomber torpedo does way too much damage and new version of 10 motherships can anihilate titan easily with them. The little example: 5000 dps tank on Chimera is broken easily from 25 fighter-bombers and each fighter bomber does 800-1000 damage to 80%+ resists.

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Originally by: ChinaWillGrowLarger

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Lasers are still better than every other turret in every way with no realistic downsides. What a ****ing surpise.

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Originally by: CCP Mitnal

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I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.

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Originally by: ChinaWillGrowLarger

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Lasers are still better than every other turret in every way with no realistic downsides. What a ****ing surpise.

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Originally by: Amy Wang

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Edited by: Amy Wang on 19/10/2009 10:00:46
The short-range damage and range figures need some overworking, nothing against increasing the short-range weapons effective range but making them all almost equal range wise while introducing massive dps differences makes no sense at all.

This is how it should be imho (without going into detail for the specific numbers):

Optimal range: Phoenix > Rev > Moros > Naglfar

Falloff: Naglfar > Moros > Rev

Dps: Naglfar > Moros > Rev > Phoenix
(but only slight differences, not the huge ones we see atm)

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Originally by: Arra Lith

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Stop whning about skill time. You don't have to train small and medium weapons to V to be able to use T2 large launchers or XL ones. That more than balance out the need for close and long range skill books.

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I dont see big difference between T1 missiles and guns training time ( and capital weapons are atm T1 only). You cant start training straight from torpedos, as you cant start training straight from Large Hybrid Turrets:

Missiles - Citadel Torpedos (enabling only short range capital weapon):
Missile Launcher Operation V
Torpedos V <- Heavy Missiles III <- Standard Missiles III <- Missile Launcher Operation II

Gunnery - Capital Hybrid Turrets (enabling both long range ans short range capital weapons)
Gunnery V
Large Hybrid Turret V <- Medium Hybrid Turret III <- Small Hybrid Turret III <- Gunnery I

I dont see here any requirements for T2 gunnery for capital weapons ?

As someone mentioned Citadel Torpedos skill should be renamed to Citadel Missiles - and this skill should be used for all capital missiles (both torpedo and cruise).

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Originally by: MiLojko

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I absolutely agree with that.

Also as a true Caldari I fly only Caldari ships. To use only Caldari but all Caldari ships properly I have 8m sp in gunnery and 12m sp in missiles =20m sp in weapons. Minnies have about the same. Why do Caldari and Minmatars now need to sink another 2m sp extra?!??

As for DPS I want the SUM of all DPS from 1km to 250km in 1 km steps to be the same for all short range weapons and the same for all long range weapons. Dont forget to factor in reloading of ammo and missile flight time. In most situations every second of delayed damage from missiles is about 2% effective DPS less.
EDIT: Forgot to mention the missile damage lowered by bombs and smartbombs

The proposed changes right now are not balanced at all. In graphs nicely presented by Blazde we can see that new Naglafar really shine, Moros is behind and Revelation and Phoenix sux.

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Originally by: Cambarus

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The point that was being made about missiles vs guns with regards to training time has nothing to do with the capital weapons themselves, and anything more than a very basic grasp of eve should have made that obvious.
[...]

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Originally by: Arra Lith

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Originally by: Cambarus

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Whats the point of this post? As you wrote it has nothing to do with capitals. And I dont think it is wise to use T2 Large hybrid turrets on capital ships ? And there is no T2 capital turrets atm.
You think Caldari dont use T2 gunnery skills on battleships? To fly succesfully in sniping ops it is must to have Large Hybrid Turrets V and T2 Railguns to fit Rokh properly.
Thats why Caldari ends up with 8m gunnery skills and 8m+ missile skills.

But this thread isnt about T2 training paths, but about capital weapons, so lets stick to that. And I dont see any point in forcing Phoenix and Naglfar pilots to spend 1m sp more than other dread pilots to be able to use close range and long range weaponry.
As for Naglfar disadvantage isnt that big. They can just stick with projectiles AC / artillery swapping, as missiles is only 1/3 of damage (and 2 turrets deal same dps as 3 turrets of other dreads because of new ship and weapon bonuses). So just shoot at long range with artillery and keep torpedos in reserve - they can be still useful if something comes too close... (yeah it sucks, but at least they can still make use of their ships)
But Phoenix pilots without this additional cruise-missile training are screwed. Their ships will be gathering dust in hangars before they relearn secrets of long range capital missiles shooting (really bad idea CCP - "Phoenix pilots, rejoice!" seems to have new meaning - nerf).

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Originally by: Cambarus

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Originally by: Arra Lith

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Originally by: Cambarus

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Whats the point of this post? As you wrote it has nothing to do with capitals. And I dont think it is wise to use T2 Large hybrid turrets on capital ships ? And there is no T2 capital turrets atm.
You think Caldari dont use T2 gunnery skills on battleships? To fly succesfully in sniping ops it is must to have Large Hybrid Turrets V and T2 Railguns to fit Rokh properly.
Thats why Caldari ends up with 8m gunnery skills and 8m+ missile skills.

But this thread isnt about T2 training paths, but about capital weapons, so lets stick to that. And I dont see any point in forcing Phoenix and Naglfar pilots to spend 1m sp more than other dread pilots to be able to use close range and long range weaponry.
As for Naglfar disadvantage isnt that big. They can just stick with projectiles AC / artillery swapping, as missiles is only 1/3 of damage (and 2 turrets deal same dps as 3 turrets of other dreads because of new ship and weapon bonuses). So just shoot at long range with artillery and keep torpedos in reserve - they can be still useful if something comes too close... (yeah it sucks, but at least they can still make use of their ships)
But Phoenix pilots without this additional cruise-missile training are screwed. Their ships will be gathering dust in hangars before they relearn secrets of long range capital missiles shooting (really bad idea CCP - "Phoenix pilots, rejoice!" seems to have new meaning - nerf).

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You can argue that it sucks all you want while not looking at the big picture, unfortunately most of us play EVE online not capships online, so while it may seem unbalanced (which it doesn't, because the moros and nag also have split weapon systems) while looking at just the cap ships, when you look at the weapon system as a whole it makes perfect sense. Sure they could make training for cap weapons the same for all races, then they can go and do the same thing for all the other ship sizes Don't complain just because the training differences between missiles and guns work in favor of guns for capital weapons, when for the rest of the game they favor missiles.

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Originally by: Cambarus

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Don't complain just because the training differences between missiles and guns work in favor of guns for capital weapons, when for the rest of the game they favor missiles.

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Originally by: MiLojko

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Originally by: Cambarus

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Thats the biggest bull**** ever.
First: having t2 torps trained with minimal prerequisites is useless. Even if you seriously decide to skip smaller stuff and wanna go straight into T2 fitted Raven then you not only need T2 torps but also need T2 cruises and all you also need support skills at proper levels.

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Originally by: MiLojko

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Second: If you're looking at whole picture you will see that having whole subcapital missile tree properly trained include: 6x support skills at 5, 6x t1 weapons at 5 and 6x t2 weapons at 4. To have whole gunnery tree properly trained you need: 6x support skills at 5, 3x t1 weapons at 5 and 6x t2 weapons at 4. How is that in favor of missiles I really dont see.

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Originally by: Norris Packard

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Moros is not a split weapon boat, all classes of ships need good drone skills.

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