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Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.10.12 17:41:00 - [151] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Tesal Does General Exception also share an IP? If so, I think you can safely say it was a fake transfer. Yes. I take it from this comment, and seem to recall that Ebank records IPs. Are you allowed to discuss this information on the public forum? Seems like rather sensitive information that should not be referred to at all, although I may be incorrect. Reporting that post for clarification (no offence).
Maestro Del'Tirith Space Exploration Forward Motion Industries	Posted - 2009.10.12 17:55:00 - [152] Has the new board considered putting up an announcement asking people to 'claim their isk' - perhaps via inputting a withdrawal for it or similar measures? I may be crazy, but just guessing, I'd be willing to bet that hundreds of billions of the isk in those accounts are to people who a) don't play anymore b) have sold off the char and the char doesn't even know the isk is there c) are off in la-la land and may come back someday but probably no day soon I am wondering if understanding the actual demand for isk out of the mess would not be valuable in understanding the true current state of the balance sheet. Separate from this, have their been considerations for removing interest and counting balance as only principle (a la FDIC insurance), to see what sort of picture that paints? ------------- Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread
Leneerra Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.12 18:04:00 - [153] Hexx, With the published numbers I am currently not tempted to sell at 20% maybe somewhere in the next 3 weeks this will change, who knows. However I am not tempted to raise cosmoray's bid either, nor have I seen anyone else making a higher bid. Maybe that is food for thought to the people in ebank, It most certainly is for me. I know I own no part of ebank, they just owe me some isk. What gets me worked up to post time and time again is some of he statements that are issued by ebank and its employees. And I am not even talking about the stupid jokes by Ray, but statements where they claim to have had no formal request to withdraw after making extremely clear that we are not going to get our isk returned untill they feel ready for it and trying to use that 'fact' to prove their customer loyalty. Or claiming that they will have returned me all my isk if they keep it at 0% intrest for a period that is probably longer than a year before handing it back. Or when they finally admit they actually had no idear where all the money was that we (stupidly) entrusted to them and needed roughly 2 months to dig trough al the records, as far as those exist, to discover how much they actually have and where it ended up.
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.12 18:19:00 - [154] Originally by: Tesal If no else one knows, I assume KIA leadership does because they would need to know that before they let them in the alliance. Yup. :) --------
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.10.12 18:21:00 - [155] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Are you allowed to discuss this information on the public forum? Seems like rather sensitive information that should not be referred to at all, although I may be incorrect. How is it sensitive information? Here's a hint: Your computer broadcasts an IP every time you press a button on the internet. I'm not posting private information. I'm not posting anything that can be used to identify anybody. I'm not posting anything that couldn't be figured out from in-game information, as proved just a few posts ago.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.12 18:32:00 - [156] Edited by: Tesal on 12/10/2009 18:32:58 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Tesal Does General Exception also share an IP? If so, I think you can safely say it was a fake transfer. Yes. Who brought Mr Horizontal into EBank? never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.12 19:01:00 - [157] Originally by: Tesal Edited by: Tesal on 12/10/2009 18:52:59 Edited by: Tesal on 12/10/2009 18:32:58 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Tesal Does General Exception also share an IP? If so, I think you can safely say it was a fake transfer. Yes. Who brought Mr Horizontal into EBank? Edit crickets chirping sound* Mr H was on the original BOD. I think the idea for EBANK started floating around in 2007, at which point Furybank was still running but the concern was with a one man operation. At that time Ricdic did have a 'good' MD reputation and tried to gather a group of players with similar high MD reps or who had required skills to run a bank (including website, database design etc.).
DJ Geist	Posted - 2009.10.12 19:04:00 - [158] Originally by: SetrakDark I'd like to know what people think Ray's nefarious end-game is. EBank already has everyone's money, why maintain the charade of decency? If the goal is to run another bank scam, why spend 1-2 years rebuilding a broken one? I'm honestly curious. I'll bite. Here are some possibilities. 1) To appear the hero in having dealt with the aftermath of EBANK in the best possible way, for the sake of long term credibility in future scams. 2) To entice a new breed of sheep to contribute to EBANK's funds by buying up the accounts of those who do not have confidence in EBANK, and then staying with EBANK (and perhaps even adding deposits as reports get more rosy) during the rebuilding 3) To dissolve attention from the various participants in the scam, combined with an actual or chose scapegoat or two. Ambiguous "I don't know if he was behind or not" credibility is better than bad credibility, and could be the shaky basis to initiate new and future scams. etc The bottom line is that EBANK and various MD elitists are doing their "virtual banking" with the 80's mentality of Gordon Gecko, when your name and prowess supposedly meant something, but your investors are living in the new century of Bear Sterns, where even the biggest names could amount to nothing.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.10.12 19:15:00 - [159] Originally by: DJ Geist 1) To appear the hero in having dealt with the aftermath of EBANK in the best possible way, for the sake of long term credibility in future scams. The guy has ample credibility to pull an enormous scam. If anything involvement with EBank has hurt his rep. Possible, but pretty weak. Originally by: DJ Geist 2) To entice a new breed of sheep to contribute to EBANK's funds by buying up the accounts of those who do not have confidence in EBANK, and then staying with EBANK (and perhaps even adding deposits as reports get more rosy) during the rebuilding ...do the math on this. Originally by: DJ Geist 3) To dissolve attention from the various participants in the scam, combined with an actual or chose scapegoat or two. Ambiguous "I don't know if he was behind or not" credibility is better than bad credibility, and could be the shaky basis to initiate new and future scams. This I can see. It puts a lot of stock in the ability of them to socially engineer outcomes, too much in my opinion, but a perfectly reasonable theory. Thanks.
Alex555	Posted - 2009.10.12 19:21:00 - [160] Every day some new and positive from Ebank. Sorry for my sarcasm, but do ya'll really think that Mr H and AH are the last? The closer is the end the faster rats escape the ship. Nothing personal Ebank staff, but now assets seizure seems like the biggest scam ever since u've got the full control over clients' assets and u do not really have any plans to return them. But not all of u, I guess. There are some brave and honest people there (no sarcasm this time) At this point it would be nice if I can touch my assets... o-ops kinda George Michael is in my head... seriously it would be nice if every client will be tied to a specific director. In case a client wants some personal revenge he/she knows whom to pod. Sometimise good revenge compensates all losses. To summarize all what I've said: Ebank is dead, Ray start something new, at least u could get some clients' assets from your peers' greedy hands. And finally make some calculations. Let people know what their accounts really worth. Let them to decide whether to get away with what has left or believe in the new team and let their isks grow with your efforts.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.12 19:38:00 - [161] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Tesal Edited by: Tesal on 12/10/2009 18:52:59 Edited by: Tesal on 12/10/2009 18:32:58 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Tesal Does General Exception also share an IP? If so, I think you can safely say it was a fake transfer. Yes. Who brought Mr Horizontal into EBank? Edit crickets chirping sound* Mr H was on the original BOD. I think the idea for EBANK started floating around in 2007, at which point Furybank was still running but the concern was with a one man operation. At that time Ricdic did have a 'good' MD reputation and tried to gather a group of players with similar high MD reps or who had required skills to run a bank (including website, database design etc.). I guess Ricdic brought him then. This whole mess certainly creates some threads of inquiry that are quite disturbing and go well beyond EBank in their scope. It is unfortunate that some people with good names are caught up in this. never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
Stella's Rage	Posted - 2009.10.12 20:14:00 - [162] I bet Ray does a bunk with the lot. he is SUSPECT.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.12 20:33:00 - [163] Quote: And by the way your use of "intelligent" here is some degree of strongarming. The "intelligent/lemming" contrast is not a real distinction in your characterization, but just rhetoric that tries to nudge people into trusting ray/anyone in ebank. Now, it's the time when you eve-search what nice words Ray and me exchanged in the past (or most EBANK directors who I called in to account for their opacity for months) and STFU instead of pretending I "nudge" people in trusting anyone. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.10.12 20:47:00 - [164] Originally by: Stella's Rage I bet Ray does a bunk with the lot. he is SUSPECT. I'll take that bet. What's the time frame? Man up, post on your main, and we can arrange for a 3rd party holder and terms.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:22:00 - [165] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Are you allowed to discuss this information on the public forum? Seems like rather sensitive information that should not be referred to at all, although I may be incorrect. How is it sensitive information? Here's a hint: Your computer broadcasts an IP every time you press a button on the internet. I'm not posting private information. I'm not posting anything that can be used to identify anybody. I'm not posting anything that couldn't be figured out from in-game information, as proved just a few posts ago. My point is that if you are harvesing and storing IP addresses you have an ethical responsibility not to discuss that information in any way on the eve online forum. The fact that you only confirmed that one ingame character was linked to another character is moot, because you referenced confidential information which should not be documented on a public forum. You have access to sensitive information which you not only harvest, but apparently store, and there are valid ethical concerns about how you use that information which you should consider before rushing to the forums to prove a point.
Stella's Rage Caldari Stella Rage	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:46:00 - [166] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Stella's Rage I bet Ray does a bunk with the lot. he is SUSPECT. I'll take that bet. What's the time frame? Man up, post on your main, and we can arrange for a 3rd party holder and terms. I'm not falling for that! 30 isk. chribba. u pay his fees. this is my main now. I lost the farm with this ebank fiasco, my clone has been reposessed. I have nothing but my ibis and some genetically modified livestock i begged off a hauler on his way to jita. hes a NO GOODER i tell you! Caution: Does Violence Against Spaceships due to strong lager intake.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:51:00 - [167] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Are you allowed to discuss this information on the public forum? Seems like rather sensitive information that should not be referred to at all, although I may be incorrect. How is it sensitive information? Here's a hint: Your computer broadcasts an IP every time you press a button on the internet. I'm not posting private information. I'm not posting anything that can be used to identify anybody. I'm not posting anything that couldn't be figured out from in-game information, as proved just a few posts ago. My point is that if you are harvesing and storing IP addresses you have an ethical responsibility not to discuss that information in any way on the eve online forum. The fact that you only confirmed that one ingame character was linked to another character is moot, because you referenced confidential information which should not be documented on a public forum. You have access to sensitive information which you not only harvest, but apparently store, and there are valid ethical concerns about how you use that information which you should consider before rushing to the forums to prove a point. Its not confidential, and the actual IP wasn't even shared. Why are you saying this? never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:54:00 - [168] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel My point is that if you are harvesing and storing IP addresses you have an ethical responsibility not to discuss that information in any way on the eve online forum. The fact that you only confirmed that one ingame character was linked to another character is moot, because you referenced confidential information which should not be documented on a public forum. You have access to sensitive information which you not only harvest, but apparently store, and there are valid ethical concerns about how you use that information which you should consider before rushing to the forums to prove a point. Why are you then not up in arms about the fact that we released screenshots of data in our database? There's numerous court cases that has establish that IP addresses are not protected by privacy laws in most cases. The fact that I have yet to post the IP addresses, but merely state that we are able to tell that there is a correlation between data in our logs, makes your point fairly moot. I have not documented anything but the screenshots of the transactions that you can see in the op. Sure I have referred to a conclusion that we made from our investigation, which also involved IP addresses logged by our system. I could also state that we did x and y that made us able to tell that all x accounts were accessed by the same IP. Conclusions are not illegal.
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.10.12 21:58:00 - [169] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel My point is that if you are harvesing and storing IP addresses you have an ethical responsibility not to discuss that information in any way on the eve online forum. The fact that you only confirmed that one ingame character was linked to another character is moot, because you referenced confidential information which should not be documented on a public forum. You have access to sensitive information which you not only harvest, but apparently store, and there are valid ethical concerns about how you use that information which you should consider before rushing to the forums to prove a point. I disagree, it's no different than saying that a phone call comes from the same area/country code, or that mail comes from the same city. As long as you don't identify which IP, phone numbers, etc. you haven't really let the cat out of the bag. Mr H. is accused of a 'crime', the evidence is timing and IPs. Saying the IPs are the same is not providing secret information, just verifying the means my which the determination was made. So long as they don't list the IPs everyone is covered. And not discussing something in "anyway"? Aren't you discussing IP's right now in some way? Meta-discussing IPs?
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.10.12 22:36:00 - [170] Originally by: LaVista Vista There's numerous court cases that has establish that IP addresses are not protected by privacy laws in most cases. The fact that I have yet to post the IP addresses Post them then, and await the response. Do you really think it will be permitted? Don't forget, you are posting on the CCP forum and are subject the their rules. Don't forget to include Ricdic, and all your bad loan IPs, in addition to your tarnished directors. Or is this just a witch hunt against these two individuals because it suits Ebank's strategy right now? Just a quick reminder, here is your TOS https://www.eve-bank.net/About/Static.aspx?key=TermsAndConditions. Direct me to the point where you state that you will publically link alts, or IPs that are found to scam or default. I assume even your BoD Ebank accounts are given these same terms and conditions? Or are you just making the rules up as you go along? Exercise some judgement and restraint when you post on the forums. The fact that you are privy to information (which some people consider sensitive) does not mean you need to rush to the forums to post to confirm rumours and allegations using that information, which as you stated, could have been confirmed without. An IP address is not the only thing Ebank harvests, as I recall you also extract personal email addresses from your account holders. Will you be publishing these on the eve-o forums next? Where do you draw the line? This wishy-washy "I didn't explicitly state the information" reminds me of when Shar/Hawkblade threatened to tell a complaining DBank investor's colleagues who their in-game character was. It didn't happen but there was moderate criticism; the fact that he rushed to the forums to threaten an investor by releasing RL information goes against the spirit of the game, and is unethical. On another point, how secure is your database, and how much information was Mr H actually privy to? If it was the whole database, does this mean that all your account holders email addresses and IPs have been available to someone who is now a confirmed scammer? If you're not aware of the debate about IP address publishing in relation to eve online (which I doubt), eve search IP harvesting.
Solisk Gallente HyperFang Aquisitions And Logistics New Eden Retail Federation	Posted - 2009.10.12 22:48:00 - [171] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Originally by: LaVista Vista There's numerous court cases that has establish that IP addresses are not protected by privacy laws in most cases. The fact that I have yet to post the IP addresses Post them then, and await the response. Do you really think it will be permitted? Don't forget, you are posting on the CCP forum and are subject the their rules. Don't forget to include Ricdic, and all your bad loan IPs, in addition to your tarnished directors. Or is this just a witch hunt against these two individuals because it suits Ebank's strategy right now? Just a quick reminder, here is your TOS https://www.eve-bank.net/About/Static.aspx?key=TermsAndConditions. Direct me to the point where you state that you will publically link alts, or IPs that are found to scam or default. I assume even your BoD Ebank accounts are given these same terms and conditions? Or are you just making the rules up as you go along? Exercise some judgement and restraint when you post on the forums. The fact that you are privy to information (which some people consider sensitive) does not mean you need to rush to the forums to post to confirm rumours and allegations using that information, which as you stated, could have been confirmed without. An IP address is not the only thing Ebank harvests, as I recall you also extract personal email addresses from your account holders. Will you be publishing these on the eve-o forums next? Where do you draw the line? This wishy-washy "I didn't explicitly state the information" reminds me of when Shar/Hawkblade threatened to tell a complaining DBank investor's colleagues who their in-game character was. It didn't happen but there was moderate criticism; the fact that he rushed to the forums to threaten an investor by releasing RL information goes against the spirit of the game, and is unethical. On another point, how secure is your database, and how much information was Mr H actually privy to? If it was the whole database, does this mean that all your account holders email addresses and IPs have been available to someone who is now a confirmed scammer? If you're not aware of the debate about IP address publishing in relation to eve online (which I doubt), eve search IP harvesting. Yeah yeah, we get it. You don't have anything better to whine and ***** about so you are gonna nitpick any little thing that might possibly inflame others to join you in your whine-o-rama.
DeathGrip Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.12 23:25:00 - [172] Originally by: SentryRaven Originally by: Tesal If no else one knows, I assume KIA leadership does because they would need to know that before they let them in the alliance. Yup. :) Why would Kia leadership care, they stole 250bil isk from Ebank as well, or did you all forget that part?
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.10.13 00:07:00 - [173] Edited by: SencneS on 13/10/2009 00:07:06 Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel rotten garbage I found out that Phoebe Halliwel is also Lord Zidius!! This discovery came to me via information that was available to me because both Phoebe Halliwel and Lord Zidius disclosed publicly information that indicated they are the same person. Low and behold this is an example of people using the internet and finding out information, drawing a conclusion, and publicly declaring that conclusion based on information available. In other words.... Just because someone says "I used this information and came to the conclusion they are the same person." You have to believe the following. 1) The person making the claim in the first place. 2) The information that the person used to make that conclusion. 3) The conclusion itself. The thing you're missing here is... LVV didn't post any information other then the fact that, This person's is a scamer, and that person used the same internet connection and logged into 10 other characters, therefore the conclusion is all 10 characters are scamers. Unless you're trying to protect the integrity and privacy of scamers then I suggest you leave this line of thinking alone. It's publicly accepted in EVE that scamers and their alts be disclosed and any information that helps support the identity of alts to scamers is also welcome. What you're saying is you support the right of the alts of these scamers to remain private. Well then, I guess I'm going to make a small conclusion here. Phoebe Halliwel and Lord Zidius support the private identity of the remaining characters of known scamers. Therefore he is promoting scamming and shouldn't be trusted on this bases. There we go I said it, my conclusion based on publicly available information. You can either believe it or not or disregard my conclusion, the choice if yours.. (EVE-Search was used in the discovery of the connection between these two characters) Amarr for Life
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.13 02:27:00 - [174] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel My point is that if you are harvesing and storing IP addresses you have an ethical responsibility not to discuss that information in any way on the eve online forum. The fact that you only confirmed that one ingame character was linked to another character is moot, because you referenced confidential information which should not be documented on a public forum. You have access to sensitive information which you not only harvest, but apparently store, and there are valid ethical concerns about how you use that information which you should consider before rushing to the forums to prove a point. Are you aware that IP addresses can be spoofed or ran through proxies??? Not to mention that if you get a dynamic IP from your ISP you will have a different IP address very frequently. Also what about some apartment buildings or college dorms?? There might be 500 people using the same public IP address and hiding behind the NAT of the router. That alone makes proving what characters are alts almost impossible since many people can share the same IP address.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2009.10.13 02:44:00 - [175] Originally by: Breaker77 That alone makes proving what characters are alts almost impossible since many people can share the same IP address. Part of my point I suppose, it's a flawed way to really prove the alts are who Ebank think they are. @ Sensces, fair point about revealing alts, I don't dispute anyone's right to do that. I do dispute whether using a RL "computer connection" is ethical, but that's just an opinion; I don't really care if you agree. No point belabouring the point though. Game alt links, fair enough, IP addresses is a gray area in terms of privacy issues and it's not like it hasn't been discussed before. Is it OK to use out of game resources to find a scammer in Eve?. There wasn't even any need to refer to IPs here, Ray stated in the OP who the asociated alts were, it wasn't necessary to state how the information was obtained. Given that Ebank staff seem to find oversight issues so difficult, it's slightly worrying it holds RL information about customers in what appears to be a comprimised database, but that's for them to squawk about. Lord Zidius sold Phoebe Halliwel in August last year as per the forum post. Nuff said. /crawls back under rock
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.13 02:45:00 - [176] Edited by: cosmoray on 13/10/2009 02:50:38 At the end of the day this is a game, and it is not gainst CCP rules to scam. If people start publishing personal data (IP addresses and e-mails) on CCP forums without permission, that could be taken that you are trying to get retribution in real life. You might find yourself being banned pretty quickly. CCP TOS (#18): You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriberÆs personal information within the EVE Online game world or website If someone posted my personal information on any server I would report this to the server provider, and if they didn't act I would take them to court.
Varo Jan Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.13 02:56:00 - [177] Originally by: Ray McCormack Anastasia Heron ... posted that she would be returning the remaining assets from her venture (that hasn't paid any interest in at least six months). Remaining? Does that mean she returned less than the initial capital, which was... how much? No interest at all in at least six months? You have to be joking. Seriously. What that says is that either she is a liar or completely and utterly incompetent. Assuming an absolute minimum of 10.5B capital in her venture, and a derisory return of 10% per month, in six months that adds up to 6.3B simple. What this also demonstrates yet again is the past - and present - lack of simple controls at EBank, and the absolute incompetence of those in charge. No, no... please do not start bleating about the need for an in-depth audit, yade, yade. All you need for an external venture of that nature is two very simple controls. And if you don¦t know what they are - you shouldn¦t be running a market barrow, squire.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.13 03:26:00 - [178] Originally by: DeathGrip Originally by: SentryRaven Originally by: Tesal If no else one knows, I assume KIA leadership does because they would need to know that before they let them in the alliance. Yup. :) Why would Kia leadership care, they stole 250bil isk from Ebank as well, or did you all forget that part? That is not what I am most interested in at the moment, although that is pretty bad. never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
Ray McCormack Kisoken Innovations	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:28:00 - [179] The IP address corresponding to Mr H's accounts resolves to his company website, which lists his personal details. If we were to post it I believe through that connection we would be in breach of both our and CCP's ToS. However by stating that two characters share the same IP we are in breach of nothing, I could just as well advise you they share the same breakfast cereal. I should step in here and say that Anastasia Heron did add the missing interest payments from the previous six months to the asset total, and returned assets plus ISK to that value, less her account balances. I can't login to the bank forums currently, when I can I will post the breakdown she gave. Titan BPC Auction \| Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:57:00 - [180] sigh this is stupid. every EBank thread devolves into pointless name calling. About the only thing that I've seen of any use in this thread (other than the OP) is the question: 'Has / Can ray / EBank set up somewhere that everyone with an account can post to claim their isk? Because a lot of people either forgot / sold & didn't tell / left eve. That isk could be spent to refund investors that actually play. Is something like this being discussed and / or thought of?' Other than that... Yes, some people think you've done wrong, some people think right; but right now, there's no more reason for this thread to continue - it's been so badly derailed it's not even funny. And that folks, is my daily dose of seriousness! -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_

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