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cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:33:00 - [271] One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:36:00 - [272] Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. LOL, too little too late.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:01:00 - [273] Originally by: Liberty Eternal I guess people should have thought harder about this They did. Most figured it was a scam anyways, but was entertaining and threw the money in for part of the drama. Originally by: Koerner God, I hate being right all the time. The reason this worked, where it otherwise would not have, is the same reason so many scams work. People will invest into anything that they WANT to be true. It's widely known how many people dislike Goonswarm, therefore Kartoon knew that the prospect of MD somehow being involved in its downfall was simply too enticiing. No matter how preposterous the concept. I said it at the beginning, then again somewhere in the middle, and now here again at the end because this whole thing defied common sense from the beginning: ANY GAINS TO BE HAD FROM HAVING EXTRA MONEY TO FUND A CORP THEFT, ARE GREATLY OUTWEIGHED BY MAKING THE SCHEME PUBLIC!! Use your heads! No legitimate thief/saboteur announces his intended target before making the attack! And others have said it, you seem not to get it. People invested in this because (a) if it was true, it'd be a doosey and a major part of Eve history, (b) if it wasn't true, the scam was proving to be quite entertaining. It is still a game. Originally by: Roguehalo "Maybe we should get Elvis in on this as an adviser" The above quote was my only contribution to this thread. I really Think VV and Cosmoray, with the benefit of hindsight ofc, should re-evaluate their part in this. It would probably have been better to decline, as Chribba did, to get involved . Their involvement gave this risible scheme a measure of credence it never deserved. I think VV held up just fine. She was up front from the start that this was probably a scam and that she was only able to confirm that Yih could mail her from a Goon Director in a position that he claimed. She was never dishonest in this thread, that I could see. Anyways, my two cents on that one. I was kind of lol'ing myself that people were still questioning it's validity after the first two threads. It was a good read, though.
karttoon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:11:00 - [274] Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME!
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:14:00 - [275] ill rate this along the armoured c scam. though it should have be rated lower tbh. considering the time investment; you didnt make that much. 1/10 wouldnt see again. if you lost money in this you are ******ed!
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:26:00 - [276] Originally by: karttoon Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME! I see the point here - this was a proposal for an offensive action directly hostile to goonswarm, it was not a neutral investment in, say, industry. Can it really be classed as a scam to take money from people who are actively planning to harm you?
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:11:00 - [277] Originally by: Liberty Eternal I see the point here - this was a proposal for an offensive action directly hostile to goonswarm, it was not a neutral investment in, say, industry. Can it really be classed as a scam to take money from people who are actively planning to harm you? Reality called and wants you to get in touch with it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:25:00 - [278] Quote: Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME! I found more entertraining, in roleplay and downright more interesting the fake Kartoon than the real one. You recite a 2006 part. It's boring now. Go away. Or make a lottery so it's boring but with a Market Discussion topic. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:36:00 - [279] Originally by: Tesal Also, no Goon can talk about "integrity". That is the entire point of being a Goon, that they lack integrity. We're just playing a different game than you. Originally by: cosmoray With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. I need to look back somewhere, but when ever I point out that the MD forum people have this mindset towards taking one goons money to pay off anothers debt, people swear up down and sideways that that would never happen.
Venal Inamorata	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:49:00 - [280] So I'm guessing the 5B bribe to reveal the main was all part of the ploy? Working off the basis that Cosmoray would remain honourable? Pretty good rep for Cosmoray there. Though in hindsight perhaps he should've double-bluffed the briber & this would have been over that little bit sooner :-)

Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:34:00 - [281] I said this on Page 1 of this thread, and I'll quote it now. Originally by: Frenden Dax Throw in some glitz, fake some sincerity, point out how you're different from a few other thieves, and people will throw money at you. And people did throw some money, only to be unsurprisingly scammed. If you invested, you were stupid. Or naive, which amounts to the same thing. I'm not surprised that Flakeys invested since he'll chuck money at just about anyone, but cosmo should have known better. Originally by: Karanth Or, in other words, random people can't usurp rights from government because they are insane/bitter/vengeful/made of potato salad.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:49:00 - [282] Originally by: Yih For those who have read this far, but have not seen all the threads, they are as follows, and shall be kept here for posterity For posterity? Get a grip son, even I have the kind of isk you got out of this. Move along now.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:55:00 - [283] Originally by: Venal Inamorata Pretty good rep for Cosmoray there. Until he gave the green light to scam all goons.
penifSMASH GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:00:00 - [284] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME! I found more entertraining, in roleplay and downright more interesting the fake Kartoon than the real one. You recite a 2006 part. It's boring now. Go away. Or make a lottery so it's boring but with a Market Discussion topic. You post as if your opinion matters
Venal Inamorata	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:35:00 - [285] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Venal Inamorata Pretty good rep for Cosmoray there. Until he gave the green light to scam all goons. I didn't say he didn't lose any rep afterwards :-) That particular generalisation was a little off and I suspect/hope made in anger.
Hans Jeschonnek	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:41:00 - [286] Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. Cosmoray didn't have any rep to begin with, as he is a known for not keeping his word, and easy to make excuses as to why. If he really did invest he's stupid anyway, and could easily be fooled during an audit.
Research Princess	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:44:00 - [287] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. Cosmoray didn't have any rep to begin with, as he is a known for not keeping his word, and easy to make excuses as to why. If he really did invest he's stupid anyway, and could easily be fooled during an audit. I couldn't have said it better myself.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:54:00 - [288] Originally by: Tesal Also, no Goon can talk about "integrity". That is the entire point of being a Goon, that they lack integrity. I direct you to our internal loans forum where there is at least a 95% return rate or me and other goon businessmen who have taken out massive, multi-billion isk loans or bonds (50b in my case) with absolutely no security at all and still not run off with it. Then come back and say that Goons "lack integrity". Its like Kalrand said, we're just playing a different game than you. Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. This is Eve, buddy. Everyone already had "probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members", and frankly, scam anyone else. Its a part of life here. The fact that you have ~risen above it all~ doesn't really change that.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:09:00 - [289] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. They got scammed. Yup. Now who will you replace them with? You? You think this is a positive outcome? [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:11:00 - [290] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. It should be noted that VV's alliance is the historical enemy of Goonswarm. But beyond that, I actually didn't see much wrong with what they reported, until the entire thing unwound. VV appears to have been very careful in choosing his words. But the stupid thing is that if Karttoon wanted to haul all our stuff away and disband us, he could. The fact that he's telling you that his motivation was to make ISK, should have been a pretty big red flag to the auditor/third party/whoever that the whole thing was garbage. Some sub level spy-director would have been far more plausible. Originally by: corestwo I direct you to our internal loans forum where there is at least a 95% return rate or me and other goon businessmen who have taken out massive, multi-billion isk loans or bonds (50b in my case) with absolutely no security at all and still not run off with it. Then come back and say that Goons "lack integrity". Its like Kalrand said, we're just playing a different game than you. ~11 billion here outstanding. ~5 billion in paid off loans and bonds. No collateral or audit, but I do drop pages and pages of :words: on people every few weeks to keep people up to date. The only reason I would come to the MD board now for funds would be if I wanted to refinance to a lower interest rate. Most of my debt is 7.5% per month. But I doubt it would be worth the hassle.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:30:00 - [291] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/11/2009 20:32:27 Quote: You post as if your opinion matters Not a lot, but more than yours for sure. Quote: Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. I know reading is hard, but you could always ask for help. I was paid to state if a guy could control a powerful GS director. P E R I O D. All the rest comes straight up off your anus. Since the supposed powerful GS director in the end revealed to actually be a powerful GS director, I did my job. I did not get paid to support or not support the dude. Any ASSumption off yours is just yours truly. Are you one of those that when they see an attorney working for a suspect possible criminal, call the attorney criminal? Quote: or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' I allow myself to be payed also to audit people. In both case I bring a statement of feasibility. You can be an idiot and take it as it's an advertisement or you can stick to understand it's a statement about something being possible. I am not going to do your homeworks nor I have the ability or presumption to erect myself as a judge. I leave it to the Investors. Their money. Their brain. Quote: They got scammed. Yup. Now who will you replace them with? You? I did not get scammed. I got correctly paid the stated fee. I gave out the expected (approved in game by Yih) statement, including objecting to Yih that I could not state he was the director but just able to control a director. Yih was fine with that. That got posted. That has been the end of my assignment. Quote: It should be noted that VV's alliance is the historical enemy of Goonswarm Beyond the luls (being paid by GS with my tag) I did not consider the alliances involved a bit. This is what some flamers don't get. Being new-ish to the game I don't have the prejudices pro or against anyone. I don't know GS, I don't know BoB (that my corp recently decided to join) for me both are fat unknowns. I happen to have invested in a GS bond. Because I am neutral, for real. And money is where the mouth is. All those reading Goonswarm and immediately calling the forum police for the obvious scam don't see the meaning of having to be neutral for a job, and not force GS = scam at all the costs, however the "tradition" is stacked. In fact GS still pay me bond interests, precise like a Swiss clock. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:51:00 - [292] "able to control a director" What exactly does that mean and what evidence were you given? The only evidence acceptable to me would have been an undoctored login screenshot showing Yih and Karttoon on the same account. Anything else would have been so open to deception(as has proved the case) as to be totally meaningless.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:51:00 - [293] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: It should be noted that VV's alliance is the historical enemy of Goonswarm Beyond the luls (being paid by GS with my tag) I did not consider the alliances involved a bit. This is what some flamers don't get. Being new-ish to the game I don't have the prejudices pro or against anyone. I don't know GS, I don't know BoB (that my corp recently decided to join) for me both are fat unknowns. I didn't mean for it to come out that way. I meant it as a comparison as to why Chribba couldn't be a part of this, and you could. You were in a unique position. Oh, and despite your newness, you are still the bad guy to us.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:57:00 - [294] Originally by: Roguehalo "able to control a director" What exactly does that mean and what evidence were you given? The only evidence acceptable to me would have been an undoctored login screenshot showing Yih and Karttoon on the same account. Anything else would have been so open to deception(as has proved the case) as to be totally meaningless. .....which would be a EULA violation to demand that.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:11:00 - [295] Quote: "able to control a director" What exactly does that mean and what evidence were you given? It means that if by example I asked Yih to contact / mail me thru that character and say "Hi, Yih here", he could. And I think Cosmo too has got the same text. Not having the API (repeatedly asked and never given - and also said so on the forums) means that any further proof of identity is impossible. A login screenshot off a possible scammer is just a good proof he's good with Photoshop and passible of CCP petition. Hence the restriction to "can control". - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Khava Barayev	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:14:00 - [296] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I was paid to state if a guy could control a powerful GS director. P E R I O D. All the rest comes straight up off your anus. Are you one of those that when they see an attorney working for a suspect possible criminal, call the attorney criminal? I allow myself to be payed also to audit people. You're an idiot. You really have no clue what an audit is, do you? Anyone who believes for a second that an investment audit would even work in EVE is terminally ****ed. And yes, an auditor who gives out a letter of recommendation to a crap investment is held accountable for it, can be sued, and will likely lose their professional designation. Its called professional negligence you *****. Maybe you should read up on GAAS if you want to roleplay an internet spaceship auditor. Here's a protip to help your make believe profession along: look up an assertion of completion, what a recommendation is, and due diligence in cases of fraud. Bigger tip: no auditor would recommend any investment in EVE.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:23:00 - [297] Edited by: Kalrand on 05/11/2009 21:22:47 Originally by: Khava Barayev You're an idiot. You really have no clue what an audit is, do you? Anyone who believes for a second that an investment audit would even work in EVE is terminally ******ed. You even stated that you were working for Yih rather than working for the investors. You know nothing of what an audit is. And yes, an auditor who gives out a letter of recommendation to a crap investment is held accountable for it, can be sued, and will likely lose their professional designation. Its called professional negligence you putz. Maybe you should read up on GAAS if you want to roleplay an internet spaceship auditor. Here's a protip to help your make believe profession along: look up an assertion of completion, what a recommendation is, and due diligence in cases of fraud. Bigger tip: no auditor would recommend any investment in EVE. Edit: hahaha, CCP has censored yiddish insults Who are you?
xxx0w0xxx	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:33:00 - [298] Originally by: Kalrand Who are you? An anonymous entity whose identity can change with a few clicks of butan, just like anyone else on this board. Which is exactly why audits don't work.
Vivinc Laloo	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:34:00 - [299] I was hoping this whole scam was designed to target vv. He's been an annoying little geek of the worst kind so that might have gotten some bored goon's attention.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:43:00 - [300] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. Cosmoray didn't have any rep to begin with, as he is a known for not keeping his word, and easy to make excuses as to why. If he really did invest he's stupid anyway, and could easily be fooled during an audit. Please post links where I haven't kept my word? Yes I did invest and lost 600M. I have never done an audit. Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers.



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