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Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:44:00 - [301] Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer?
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:46:00 - [302] Edited by: Tesal on 05/11/2009 21:46:39 VV, suck it up, this was a scam. If you think about it, even if it succeeded, it was still a scam. You may have lived up to your word, and your contract, but the operation itself was dishonest in every respect. The part of the scam that affects you is that you were used as a tool to further the scam. That is how you were scammed as well, because this damages you. So if you follow this chain of reasoning, you were scammed because your most valuable asset, your reputation, was damaged. The moral of the story here, is that you should never lay your name on the line for a Goon. That is a mistake. As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. I don't think Goons are in much of a position to talk about morals, ethics, truth or lies, since they freely admit they lie, cheat and steal whenever possible. The most you can say about VV and Cosmo is that they made an unwise decision and were tricked. There is no equivalency between what Goons do and Cosmo and VV. I outright reject that assertion. As such I also reject the idea that they are necessarily damaged beyond repair, but it is no doubt a blow. I also believe that the hurt being put on them was planned as there are planted ideas in the original IPO about IT spies. So I consider this a strike at Goon enemies, with Cosmo and especially VV on the list, with the goal of creating distrust. In that respect this scam had 2 goals probably, getting isk and hurting people. edit Originally by:* Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer? You are participating in a scam right now. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:49:00 - [303] My rep will survive for the businesses I want to be in. If my general reputation takes a big hit, I am sure someone can jump into my place and take the business.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:52:00 - [304] Originally by: cosmoray My rep will survive for the businesses I want to be in. If my general reputation takes a big hit, I am sure someone can jump into my place and take the business. You will take a hit, but I doubt a big one. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:52:00 - [305] Originally by: Tesal Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer? You are participating in a scam right now. I take it you didn't read any of my comments in this thread.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:59:00 - [306] Originally by: Tesal As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. This deserved it's own reply. Go hit up eve-search and find the post where I listed all of my alts. Take off "Sally Bestonge" (not mine anymore) and then track more than my main. Also, I'm now Karttoon? Seriously?
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:02:00 - [307] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tesal Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer? You are participating in a scam right now. I take it you didn't read any of my comments in this thread. I have been following this thread since it started over a week or so. I don't recall every comment you made verbatim. My bias is to assume you are a liar no matter what you say, because you are a Goon and have Ponzi in your corp name. It is a fairly well placed assumption, I believe, that you are pretty much into disinformation and propaganda rather that bringing forward a legitimate point or argument. As such anything you say is suspect, even the truth. Therefore, what you say is irrelevant in terms of testimony of any sort. You cannot be trusted to give a straight fact. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
TsX213	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:13:00 - [308] This is the best GS scam yet, good luck scam for 600bil.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:23:00 - [309] Quote: You're an idiot. You really have no clue what an audit is, do you? Anyone who believes for a second that an investment audit would even work in EVE is terminally ****ed. This is a game in case you did not notice and it does not even follow RL ways of doing. Find me the auditor IRL that is paid by those he has to discover their flaws (like in EvE) instead of being paid by the investors. Quote: You even stated that you were working for Yih rather than working for the investors. You know nothing of what an audit is. In fact that was not an audit (as I wrote like 2-3 times already? But I also said reading is not your forte after all...). A guy paid me to check if one thing was true and make a statement about my findings. The end. Quote: Bigger tip: no auditor would recommend any investment in EVE. Cool, I suppose at this point we can close MD and go all home. Quote: You may have lived up to your word, and your contract, but the operation itself was dishonest in every respect. Sure, and after this, there will be audits fooled, smart scammers hiding their intentions and counterfeiting the API. There have been (aka Glas Mir) those who just disappeared. You know, sitting every day with scammers and impostors can easily involve me in a scam plan of theirs. So what? I would show they had the in game skills to produce what they claimed, they had a NAV compatible with their request. Yet "their operation was dishonest in every respect". Choose one: - have a guy waste his days in a ** poor ROI meta-profession to at least find out that the guys could do what they claim. - not have the guy and believe in what they claim. I am fine with both. I am not going to lose a penny in either way. Quote: As such I also reject the idea that they are necessarily damaged beyond repair, but it is no doubt a blow I fail to see where I should be damaged. It's a precious opportunity to learn what opposition and methodology can be used in these tasks. Now, you and others could decide that dealing with Goons is so bad, to the point to have to refuse it. Is it fair? Do you think that 6000 or so Goons are all delinquents? I am glad you are not a RL judge. Even if it stinks, everyone of them (or BoB or ATLAS you name it) has the right to get a chance. Following your thoughts, LadyOfWrath would be a pariah, CAIDS would have been banned. You'd censor the Goonswarm made Evemon, EvEMap and so on? Quote: I also believe that the hurt being put on them was planned as there are planted ideas in the original IPO about IT spies. So I consider this a strike at Goon enemies, with Cosmo and especially VV on the list, with the goal of creating distrust. In that respect this scam had 2 goals probably, getting isk and hurting people This scam will have one result: deface the legit GS investors and investees here. They were here before I even joined the game. To think of such a massive move aimed at a 2009 character or a freshly formed alliance that atm is irrelevant is quite stretching. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:28:00 - [310] The fact that this is continuing to provide popcorn commentary even after the fact, is great. So Kalrand, where's my invite huh?

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:31:00 - [311] Originally by: Yih The fact that this is continuing to provide popcorn commentary even after the fact, is great. So Kalrand, where's my invite huh? Invite to what?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:34:00 - [312] Originally by: Yih The fact that this is continuing to provide popcorn commentary even after the fact, is great. So Kalrand, where's my invite huh? I am no GS expert, but don't they ask 500M to every random noob when they are not to accept them? It's possible you have been used. And the popcorns you hear, were actually farts. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:37:00 - [313] lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :)
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:41:00 - [314] Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp?
Khava Barayev	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:46:00 - [315] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha This is a game in case you did not notice and it does not even follow RL ways of doing. Find me the auditor IRL that is paid by those he has to discover their flaws (like in EvE) instead of being paid by the investors. So you're saying that you don't follow tried and trusted methods of audits, or that you lack knowledge of actual practices? Would you trust someone with absolutely no talent at finances to make isk by playing the market? I'm not sure how this helps your case at all. And it doesn't change the fact that you didn't, in plain language, give a negative recommendation based on a lack of information. Again, look up what you're trying to do with whatever pretend roleplaying thing you've dug yourself into. Most audit firms are commissioned by stakeholders and paid for by the organization they're looking into. You want a bank loan, then typically you will pay for the audit firm, but they are still working for the bank. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha In fact that was not an audit (as I wrote like 2-3 times already? But I also said reading is not your forte after all...). A guy paid me to check if one thing was true and make a statement about my findings. The end. No, you didn't also say I have no reading comprehension. You just pulled it out of your ass now. This is the first time we've met. How you doin'? You're really are an idiot. Yup, you were paid and made a BS statement to look "neutral" when every red flag should have been raised. I guess I'm crazy for thinking you should have flat out stated you wouldn't recommend this investment. You suck at damage control. So get off your high horse and admit you screwed up rather than defend that you did you job, its called taking responsibility. Unless you don't want to be known for that. I shouldn't expect much more from your failure of an alliance though. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Cool, I suppose at this point we can close MD and go all home. Quote: With you giving recommendations, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Thankfully most of the people who use this board aren't as dim witted as the so called professionals.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:50:00 - [316] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp? Because, posting with that corp name behind me sounds like it would be fun :)
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:53:00 - [317] Edited by: Kalrand on 05/11/2009 22:55:57 Originally by: Yih Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp? Because, posting with that corp name behind me sounds like it would be fun :) Soon the CEO will be "Bernie Ebbers". For a corp for yourself. Is "Old Colony Foreign Exchange Company" still available? Or "Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC"?
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:06:00 - [318] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 05/11/2009 23:06:40 Originally by: Khava Barayev stuff What's so difficult to understand? VV gets commissioned to verify a single fact. She does this to the best of her abilities and provides the necessary caveats (cannot determine if Yih is Karttoon or if Yih can just make Karttoon do stuff). She has no obligation whatsoever, to comment on any "red flags" outside the direct scope of her assignment. PS: whining about VV not pointing out the "lack of information" makes you look somewhat ... challenged - the limited info was plain obvious to any sensible person reading Yih's threads, was commented on numerous times by different known figures from MD and if you could be bothered to actually read before posting, you would know that VV has already responded to every single objection raised within the last few pages of this thread in Yih's second investment thread - one month ago, before any investments were actually taking place. Now, please stfu and leave. Thanks. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Khava Barayev	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:21:00 - [319] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 05/11/2009 23:06:40 What's so difficult to understand? VV gets commissioned to verify a single fact. She does this to the best of her abilities and provides the necessary caveats (cannot determine if Yih is Karttoon or if Yih can just make Karttoon do stuff). She has no obligation whatsoever, to comment on any "red flags" outside the direct scope of her assignment. PS: whining about VV not pointing out the "lack of information" makes you look somewhat ... challenged - the limited info was plain obvious to any sensible person reading Yih's threads, was commented on numerous times by different known figures from MD and if you could be bothered to actually read before posting, you would know that VV has already responded to every single objection raised within the last few pages of this thread in Yih's second investment thread - one month ago, before any investments were actually taking place. Now, please stfu and leave. Thanks. I haven't stated that anything is difficult to understand. I've made it pretty clear. VV is an idiot. He stated absolutely nothing and boasts himself an imaginary auditor to butter up for an eventual scam. Yes, you've stated the same thing I have - the average forum user can see through an obvious scam and the auditors blindly go along with it, one of them even investing. You expect what, praise to be handed out to them for a job well done?
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:52:00 - [320] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tesal As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. This deserved it's own reply. Go hit up eve-search and find the post where I listed all of my alts. Take off "Sally Bestonge" (not mine anymore) and then track more than my main. Also, I'm now Karttoon? Seriously? Secretly all goons are Karttoon. Biggest 1-man alliance EVER.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:43:00 - [321] Quote: So you're saying that you don't follow tried and trusted methods of audits The methods I follow are quite visible in the numerous audits I posted. Quote: And it doesn't change the fact that you didn't, in plain language, give a negative recommendation based on a lack of information I did not lack of information. I had all the required information for the job: determine that a guy claims were true. They were true, and now that the whole thing is public, it shows. Have it been an audit I'd have placed the usual "considerations" and "conclusions", where the risk of scam would have been listed as the top probability of default. But it was not. Quote: No, you didn't also say I have no reading comprehension. You just pulled it out of your ass now. This is the first time we've met. How you doin'? You're really are an idiot I am sure with your politeness you'll have a bright future on the forums. You sound so butt hurt it's not even real. And rigtheous too. You know, alts with a posting story of a grand 1 thread (this) give inner strengths. Quote: With you giving recommendations, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Thankfully most of the people who use this board aren't as dim witted as the so called professionals Never claimed to be a professional. I am a drum rolls player of a game. I am ready to learn off your grand lessons on how it's done though. See you at your next audit! EvE needs YOU! - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.06 01:41:00 - [322] Yih - grats on the fun thread. Did my 300 actually go through? My connection went down at almost the same time I tried to make the payment and I'd had a few that nightso don't remember the exact sequence of events. If so, is there any chance you could mail me the lottery mail that went out to the previous investors? That's what I was really paying to see and I would still be quite interested to see whether it was at all plausible or not. Whilst the whole operation can clearly be called a scam, I'm not sure whether those who invested for the lols can actually be said to have been scammed. I didn't expect any return on this and can't say I'm at all annoyed by the end result (as opposed to raw yard's scamming - his alt took me for ten mil and I am still quite ****ed off about that one). Flakeys certainly just seemed to be buying an expensive theatre ticket and my own 'investment' had similar motivations. I would say you actually worked quite hard for your money and provided good entertainment in return. The fact that most of the investors went in for the fun rather than the promised return or the destruction of GS also raises another interesting point. Whilst the goons like to distinguish themselves from the masses who take internet life seriously, Yih's success here was, in fact, largely derived from the fact that most of the investors did not take the game or their isk too seriously at all. Earlier in the thread a goon said that they are playing a different game from the rest of us. I don't think this is entirely true. Nobody seems too upset about the way this has turned out. indeed, the level of annoyance generated here seems to be considerably less than that generated within GS itself, for some goons at least, by suas' titan theft. I would suggest that the us and them distinction propagated by the goons is rather less well grounded than gs mythography would like it to be. Glad to hear yih will be sticking around. You'll add some much needed colour to this forum.
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.06 02:14:00 - [323] Quote: VV is an idiot. Quoted for truth, MD would be more enjoyable to read with 100% less VV autofellatio. Also, this scam is a great example of why auditing, auditors, and those that put any faith in them are ****ing stupid. The process of auditing might have served a point briefly in its early existance, but now that auditing is ubiquitous scams are conceived with the assumption that they must pass an audit. In fact audits are worse than pointless, as the process lends "credibility" to schemes that would otherwise fail to pass a basic sanity check.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 02:25:00 - [324] Originally by: Tiberizzle In fact audits are worse than pointless, as the process lends "credibility" to schemes that would otherwise fail to pass a basic sanity check. "I, one of the very people who is skimming from the massive pile of Goon moon gold, am willing to destroy this lucrative, ego-stroking arrangement, all in exchange for a tiny pile of isk. Can you help?" You sir, got the joke that we goons got on the first page of the thread.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.06 05:31:00 - [325] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tesal As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. This deserved it's own reply. Go hit up eve-search and find the post where I listed all of my alts. Take off "Sally Bestonge" (not mine anymore) and then track more than my main. Also, I'm now Karttoon? Seriously? Secretly all goons are Karttoon. Biggest 1-man alliance EVER. Meh. Some people here lacking basic reading comprehension. Continue trolling. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.06 05:53:00 - [326] I have no idea why you people are trying to justify things to the trolls. It's obvious a lot of goons have shown up (alts and non-alts) to stir the waters and some of you (VV, pinkerton etc) are giving them the perfect opportunity to do so. The best thing you can do is to not respond to them.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:17:00 - [327] Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. While your policy has been clear in the past, cosmoray (and I write without now disclosing whether I agree with your position), I don't think it's accurate to say that it is widely accepted as a general rule. Certainly your stance provoked substantial debate in the past and did not enjoy universal support. á á
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:33:00 - [328] scamming a scammer is still scamming. while i have no doubt that cosmo will never scam the public or his investors, he has crossed over to the darkside. and will be forever tainted!
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:46:00 - [329] Originally by: Ji Sama scamming a scammer is still scamming. while i have no doubt that cosmo will never scam the public or his investors, he has crossed over to the darkside. and will be forever tainted! No, there is still good in him. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:48:00 - [330] I have ambitions to become a trusted 3rd party eventually so the debate over Cosmoray/VVs involvement interests me. As a trusted 3rd party I would reserve the right to decline any job offered me. When would I exercise that right? Well if I thought that my services were being used in the possible promotion of or furtherance of a scam I would decline. We are are obviously in a grey area here which is why I said in a previous post that Cosmoray/VV maybe should re-evaluate their involvement. I still feel that Cosmoray/VV should have recognised that there was a high possibility that Yih was a scammer and should have declined the job. A/ Yih used them B/ They showed poor judgement Chribba exercised excellent judgement in declining to be involved which presumably is why he's Eves' number 1 trusted 3rd party.



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