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Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:23:00 - [1] Yih's business plan. Firstly, I'd like to state that this is going to be a no fuss business plan. There will be no hyping up of what I'm trying to do, or how successful I'm going to be at it. That is for you, the potential Investor to decide. I'll make this point clear though, if you post in this thread, I hope that it is because you have read this all the way to it's end, and need some clarification on a point. Not because you're a troll. I will be divulging as much information as I think is safe to divulge without compromising the security of the operation as a whole. tl;dr summary. 300 billion ISK is required for the successful completion of the venture 120 billion ISK is coming from Investors 100 billion ISK has been invested by ourselves. 50 billion ISK will be acquired from the sale of low-risk assets 30 billion ISK will be acquired over time from normal operations. 600 billion ISK worth of assets to be acquired. 60% ROI at the end of the term. (potentially more) 6 Month term (maximum, probably will be less) Assets then need to be sold. ISK is used to purchase infiltrators ISK is used to fit infiltrators ISK is used to purchase mercenaries ISK is used as security on merc vessels ISK is used to keep certain people quiet We are a group of four people, all located within GS Yih, the leader, is someone in position to pull this off Yih's identity has been confirmed by VV and Cosmoray Yih has valid reasons for the removal of GS There are several spies high up in enemy corps (even in the new BoB) Due to the way GS works, announcing this is making our job easier. GS has over 2.5 trillion ISK worth of assets. Most aren't able to be stolen. GF members have a similar figure entrusted in the security of POS's A multi-headed, co-ordinated strike is the only thing that will remove GS. GS used to be as fragile as BoB. Over time that changed. GS can't be destroyed by one man. 1.0 GoonSwarm GoonSwarm, for those that don't know, is probably the games largest alliance. It is the home to almost 100 different corporations, many of which are dummy corporations. The total character amount equates to over 5,000 characters (goonFleet alone is host to almost 2,000) although many of these are alts or inactive, if they all logged in at peak time, they would represent 10% of the total EVE playerbase at that time. GoonSwarm has it's fingers in every pie imaginable, from Investment, Piracy, and Production. To Black Ops, Merc Actions, and Scamming. It's actions are so large that most corporations do something for them, without even being aware of it. 1.1 GoonSwarm's assets. At a preliminary estimation, of the multiple trillions of assets GS holds (including that of it's members) only about 20% of their assets are able to be removed, to be turned into ISK via market trading, or sale back to their original owner. At current market value (with the future being hard to predict, especially with Dominion dropping) I would estimate these assets to be worth on resale around 600 billion ISK. (including BPO's, ships, modules). 2.0 Uses for capital If the total amount of capital is reached (120billion from investors) then it will be distributed as follows: 30b Security bond for Merc's 40b Payment for Mercs 50b Infiltrator Purchases The good news behind this is that the security bond will be held by a third party. If the action does not go ahead, then the 30b will be refunded to Investors (as if it were a form of collateral). These are of course rough figures, with a few billion ISK either side potentially changing. 2.1 Our ISK Our ISK (currently 100 billion) has been invested as follows 40b Infiltrators 50b Merc Payment 10b Hush money Future ISK (expected to be 80 billion) will be invested as follows: 10b emergency fund 40b Infiltrators 30b Merc Payment
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:24:00 - [2] 3.0 Inflitrators? Whilst not entirely pertinent to your investment, they are pertinent to the success of the action. Infiltrators are characters purchased usually for their skill set. Perhaps they have the ability to fly a Titan, that's a big bonus. It's not just about sitting high up in the corp/alliance to backstab people. It's also for asset removal. Infiltrators need to be fitted with gear and skills in order for them to fit into GS properly. The funds are there to purchase ships, go on PvP missions, etc. the equipment will be able to be thrown about between characters, which will be good, but the ultimate requirement is quite high (About 70 billion) 4.0 Returns. The returns for this action are potentially quite high. If it is fully invested into, and the assets siezed (There is next to no reason why this wouldn't be the case). After the 20% cut for myself and the others involved, the remainder 80% gets split amongst investors. NOW THIS IS NOT WHAT WE ARE PROMISING INVESTORS. We know there are about 600bil worth of assets that can be seized from within GS with this setup. However, what we do not know is how much of that we will be capable of seizing. That is why the minimum we can promise is 240b in assets seized which means 192 billion returned to investors, or their original investment plus 60% at the end of six months. It could be more, but I don't want any investor banking on that. I'd love it to be more! I just don't want to promise investors that, and not be able to deliver. But if we succeed in taking all 600bil, investors will get 480bil, or four times their original investment. 4.1 Only 20% for you guys? I've been asked this now a couple of times 'he's taking so little for himself' but there is something that is not generally taken into consideration. Yes, We get 20% for ourselves at the end of this, which, if we pull 600 bil, is 120 bil for ourselves...not too bad, but less than was invested. (180bil by us at the end of 6 months) The thing is, the Infiltrators, and their gear, can be resold at the end - in many cases for an increase on their original worth. I can also get the security bond back if things go well, for a grand total of 380 bil. Over doubling OUR original investment. So if you're thinking 'whats in it for us thats what. 5.0 Can you seriously pull this off? Of course I can. For those who missed it, I got two of the more trusted MD people, VV and Cosmoray (Chribba chose not to help, for his own very viable reasons) to check into my main character, and see if he was in a position to deal with this. I'll let the quotes speak from themselves; Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I am posting to confirm that indeed Yih either is or has full control over a Goon character in position to achieve devastating damage on the organization. I now know that (if he's going to do it) he has founded reasons to act in a group and why he needs sensible funding. In retrospective, the reasons are quite simple. Including why he cannot divulge any detail nor audit. I cannot guarantee his true intentions, only that if he really wants to attempt what he claimed to do, he can. Originally by: cosmoray I have been contacted by Yih's main, and I do believe that the actual theft is very possible. As long as Yih sticks to his word about payments then there is good ISK to be made.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:24:00 - [3] 5.1 But why would you want to? Fame/Infamy, thatÆs a good start. Seriously though, managing GS/GF is like a full time job. ItÆs not something that is enjoyable for anything but the heartiest of masochists, and IÆm hardly one of those. When I used to enjoy GS, it used to be fun. Now many things are taken far too seriously (although you wouldnÆt know it) and many members just care about their next ISK hit so they can buy yet another character. One of our members is ex-BoB (though the character he is using, isnÆt.) He has reason more than any to see the downfall of GS, and heÆs certainly the most avidly æactiveÆ member. He has been obsessed with returning to GS the damage dealt to BoB for quite some time. The other two are bored out of their brains with GS/GF. I should also be thrown in this pile, because it is just that, boring and stagnant. Sure, Dominion will make things exciting again, but for a really small period of time. They have an intention to start up a small corp of hardcore PvPers (because we donÆt have enough of THOSE in the game) focussing on W-space piracy. Then there is me. What am I doing this for? Well, planning this has been exciting, thatÆs a good start. Figuring out a way to truly topple GS has been extremely difficult, demanding, and challenging. Something which my life in GS hasnÆt been. IÆve been getting to the point in EVE where playing it I feel almost like a zombie. But working on this activity has certainly renewed my interest. My reasoningÆs for doing this are simple. Because it can be done. You might look at your alliance and see your friends in there and go, I could never betray them. And as such, perhaps you cannot fathom why I would want to. The point is, we arenÆt friends in GS. ItÆs taken a lot of time to prove it to me, but there is no greater truth. Snide quips are the order of the day in the GS execs, especially when we all think someone else is doing something æwrongÆ. But there is such a challenge there. IÆve got a great character, one of the biggest characters in EVE. IÆve got ships at my disposal, a fleet of people I can use at any given time. I can produce next to anything in the game. I own items even Entity doesnÆt own. With a setup like that, what challenge has there to be had? What achievements are there that I donÆt already own? Well, IÆve never been the sole person responsible for the destruction of the largest alliance in the history of EVE. ThatÆs new. IÆve never been the complete underdog in a fight, thatÆs new too. But itÆs exciting, exhilarating almost. The anticipation is incredible. The tedious, careful planning even more so (maybe IÆm OCD or something). Maybe IÆll write a book :D 5.2 Outing in public IÆve been criticised for putting my plans out in public, but there are a couple of reasons for doing so. Firstly, we needed to raise the capital. With the announcement of Dominion being as close at it is, the time GS (or any large alliance) is weak is directly afterwards. But they are also weak just beforehand, with their supplies all ready to go. With the new system as well, itÆs going to be easier than ever to cause damage from an early stage. We need capital, and yes, we need it fast. There was no legitimate way of raising this capital without approaching people for it, either publicly or privately. We tried a number of private avenues originally, however we met with limited success. Short of scamming people for the ISK, something no one in the group wants to do, we were left with only one option, and that was approach the public for ISK. However, whilst thinking about approaching MD, we came to the realisation that with my standing in the corporation, revealing our plans only made my job easier. With suspicion cast on all of the Executive staff, itÆs easier to socially engineer certain situations, based on their reactions. Also, with the way GS deals with incoming assets, it will make certain other situations/actions much easier to hide.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:25:00 - [4] 5.3 The General Newbold Dilemma General Newbold, and people before him, have caused a lot of inherent distrust in the MD community. And itÆs not surprising. It certainly makes it harder to raise capital for a venture like this than ever before. There are some very big differences that IÆd like to point out here; General Newbold utilised alts, and general deception/underhanded trickery to get the MD community to place their trust, and their wallets, in his hands. There were several alts who would state how ægreat a personÆ Newbold was. I donÆt have that, not even for an instant. General Newbold himself was obviously an alt, and yet his main was never ever revealed. He could never get multitudes of unpleasant mails, war declarations, private bounties, or anything of the sort placed on him. He simply disappeared. I canÆt do that. General Newbold was basically looked down upon by several of MDÆs key market figures. Both VV and Cosmoray were anti Newbold from the get-go. And yet they arenÆt anti-me. I think the difference here is obvious. (IÆm not saying here that they are pro-me either, of course) I have attempted to improve my offers, and take notice from MD people, going so far as to prove my mains identity (at the request of MD patrons) and am now putting as much as I think is feasible into a form of security for MD investors so that they may worry a little less about their ISK. IÆve spoken as much in-depth and detail with any member of the MD community that would ask. Repeated replies on MD as well as in-game (scc-lounge). The player behind the main, is a frequent goer to FanFest, and other events related to EVE. Destroying GS is already going to put me in an interesting position at future events. These events would be practically intolerable to attend if it was a 2-way job (destruction of GS + Scamming of MD) It is now getting to the point where the large portion of people who are pointing fingers at me and saying ælook at this scammerÆ are obviously alts (they are often purchased characters). ItÆs entirely possible that these people are GS members trying to stop me from gaining the capital I need to move on this. 6.0 Mercenaries Mercenaries are pivotal for the outcome of this operation. GoonFleet can field an impressive amount of ships to defend their territory, and most, if not all of the players are skilled at PvP. Capital ship warfare will be fairly heavy during the period where I make my move, and regions will have to be secured and defended from retaliation. This is an immense operation. And despite my ability to sabotage GS and then destroy it, there are a few places where a co-ordinated retaliation would provide my undoing. It is no doubt that this will be organised by GS (although even that, will be sabotaged where available). However, in order to actually destroy GS, not just damage it, the destruction of required player Assets, corp assets, and alliance assets will need to take place. We are four people, even with alt-tastic abilities, we simply cannot pull off something of that magnitude. GS isnÆt like BoB. Not all of their assets are centralised, within easy reach. EVEN THE CEO of GS, would have a hard time pulling all of GSÆs assets, the same could not be said for the old BoB. We will be hiring mercenaries, and attempting to also get on side alliances/corporations who arenÆt normally mercenaries û as the idea of a landgrab might be too much for them to pass up. We have already done some of this already, although that information solely rests with the CEO of the corporations/alliances, and hasnÆt even been shared with their members yet (we hope). We need players who not only have a good amount of PvP, but also understand how 0.0 work. There are no mercenary fleets big enough. We also need people who aren't just after the glory of their own alliance so that way more surgical/co-ordinated strikes can occur.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:26:00 - [5] Edited by: Yih on 14/10/2009 03:35:16 PEOPLE WHO HAVE PURCHASED SHARES SHARE PRICE - 300m ISK TOTAL SHARES - 400 Shann Wu - 1.5b ISK Cardinal Biggles - 1.5b ISK Immersive - 2.7b ISK REMAINING SHARES - 381/400
BigBank Hank	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:28:00 - [6] PEOPLE OF RISE
Immersive Immersive Technology Solutions	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:31:00 - [7] Hey there yih good to see you looked into the business plan we were talking about. It's still roughly worded though! Now that you are providing security like I said, I'd like to invest. 2.7 billion ISK has been sent to your account!!! Looking forward to seeing great results from you, and I know you can succeed! --- New to the API? GrabRaw XML It's coming...
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:33:00 - [8] Immersive, It's thanks to you, VV, and even the guys in the scc-lounge who don't like what I'm doing, Brock Nelson for instance, who gave me some really good feedback, despite being suspicious about the reasoning behind it. Your deposit has been confirmed. As always people, don't be afraid to talk to me about this, in game or in the forums.
Toobit Hor	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:38:00 - [9] Id like to throw my support behind this as well. My Hor-ring of late has gotten me many iskies, so you can have 600m of them. please send me an evemail when confirmed.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 03:53:00 - [10] Your payment has been confirmed Toobit. Eve-mail sent.

cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.14 04:03:00 - [11] I am going to have a punt for 600M. For some clarification. I have spoken at length to Yih's main, and I do think he is in a position THAT COULD pull this off. I am not endorsing Yih or his friends or vouching for them, but it is a workable plan. No way to guarantee this, but I am going to have fun with my investment.
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.14 04:16:00 - [12] How is the security implemented? What's the point of sec if you guys just wire the money to Yih? Who's the third party? Do you intend to pick the money yourself Yih?
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 04:17:00 - [13] Confirming payment from Cosmoray. Thankyou!
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 04:34:00 - [14] Edited by: Yih on 14/10/2009 04:36:34 Krathos, to be honest, I didn't expect to be flooded with people wiring me the money like this. Some of the money was sent prior to this post, though of course will still be upheld. Obviously holding the security myself is not giving security at all. I would, ideally, like to use VV to hold the funds (though if someone has a better idea, I will gladly listen). People would wire funds to me, and then I would wire the 25% to VV at the end of a 24/48 hour period. This will allow VV to sort out what is security payments, easier than if everyone who is investing in me sends it to her themselves. I would of course get her to confirm here when she receives the security deposits. She has already offered to do exactly this. Thankyou for bringing this up Krathos, in the days it took me to write the Business plan (my head is still hurting) fully organising/revealling the security arrangements were put on the backburner! ~Yih EDIT: Sorry about the two posts back to back. Confirming VV will do this, and if so, the first payments to her will head off tomorrow. (you guys have until that time to complain about the use of VV - and suggest someone more fitting)
Lecherito	Posted - 2009.10.14 05:38:00 - [15] Woot, Yih is getting investors! -L
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.10.14 05:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Lecherito Woot, Yih is getting investors! -L That is something that is never hard to do. Throw in some glitz, fake some sincerity, point out how you're different from a few other thieves, and people will throw money at you. Frankly I find this to be a lol investment, up there with Rawcola and DragonRiderTao. Except they were funny, and this isn't. All the criticisms I could level have already been leveled in the multiple threads by Yih. To sum up my feelings, I see no reason to ever, ever do business with scammers. Having shown willingness to backstab corpmates and in-game allies, there is no possible way that he (Yih) has the slightest bit of loyalty to his investors. Does he risk anything? HELL NO. With the hundred billion plus that he's aiming for, he can biomass his current character (or even better, sell it) and buy a clean, unknown one that's just as good or even better. Originally by: Karanth Or, in other words, random people can't usurp rights from government because they are insane/bitter/vengeful/made of potato salad.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.10.14 06:38:00 - [17] Put me down for 1 bille.Even if this is a scam the entertainment value is worth it .
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.10.14 06:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Frenden Dax Frankly I find this to be a lol investment, up there with Rawcola and DragonRiderTao. Except they were funny, and this isn't. Always invest in hillarity. ----------------

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.10.14 07:18:00 - [19] Posting to confirm that Yih has contacted me but that I kindly have declined to confirm and/or secure any parts or information of his plan. Win a Cap Recharger II BPO for 10M ISK

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.14 07:41:00 - [20] Quote: Both VV and Cosmoray were anti Newbold from the get-go. And yet they arenÆt anti-me. I think the difference here is obvious. (IÆm not saying here that they are pro-me either, of course) To prove I am not pro-Yih (nor against): Quote: Yih's identity has been confirmed by VV and Cosmoray VV verified that Yih is in able to make a GS director tell he's Yih. Nothing less, nothing more. The true identity proof cannot be really produced since login credentials can always be "borrowed". This should not happen and generally does not happen, but the character at stake is potentially in a specific position where having additional confirmations like i.e. an API key does not constitute a solid proof of ownership. Basically, dear Investors, know that while a GS director is surely involved in the operation (notice I don't specify any possible positive or negative adjective nor prediction about any direction the initiative will take), you'll be on your own and your guts here. Quote: Obviously holding the security myself is not giving security at all. I would, ideally, like to use VV to hold the funds (though if someone has a better idea, I will gladly listen). Ideas: - Split collateral between different holders. - Convert the liquids in lockable assets (example, easily resold capital BPOs) and have a 3rd party corporation keep it. To make an example, Cosmoray and I are jointly holding a bond collateral with a specifically made corporation which could maybe used for that. This would add an element of mutual control over the collateral. Ideally the BoD for this would be 3 elements but I only know Cosmoray and Bad Bobby as people I'd hand such a position (and others but nowadays they want to stay out of the smoke'n'flares of MD and Chribba chose to stay out as well). - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 07:54:00 - [21] I thought I wrote that up in my Business plan, but it appears not. My intention is not to hold all the assets, but to pass them, shared, to third parties, as they are received. I don't believe this offers any extra security for the investor though (to my knowledge) And I will be spending the time over the next few weeks making sure I have a few people in third party positions who can be trusted with generally 100b isk worth of assets each. VV and Cosmoray obviously come to mind, since I have dealt with them both. Though Cosmoray could be seen as a slight conflict of interest now that he has invested? Signore Kaota strikes me as a potential third candidate at the moment. I 'could' use Curzon Dax, but since he is in his 'quitting throws' that might not be the best idea. I can potentially use Entity to hold at least two or three of the items, as chances are the person who ends up with those pieces of assetry would be selling them to him anyway. Other things along these lines can be worked out in-game. The entire reason why I've been using the Scc-lounge. Because believe me, as much knowledge of the EVE world as I have, knowing who you Investors trust - is not part of it. (I don't have a strong metagame background)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.14 08:08:00 - [22] Quote: And I will be spending the time over the next few weeks making sure I have a few people in third party positions who can be trusted with generally 100b isk worth of assets each Having 3rd parties hold (and also collect) the bond money would probably raise investors' sentiment a lot. While I don't believe most of them actually care about the exact "doings" of the plan, they could appreciate all that money to go be held by better known hands that are not just a placeholder alt. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ambo I've Got Nothing	Posted - 2009.10.14 08:45:00 - [23] It's certainly interesting, I'll give you that. A couple of questions/concerns: 1. Mercs have already been paid 50 bil? Have you contacted other merc corps? Can this be confirmed? (maybe through VV/cosmo?) 2. Your total spend on 'infiltrators' is 130 bil. That's a lot and it seems rather wishy-washy to say that they just need that much. (I understand though that giving more details could be a security risk for you). 3. What is the 'Security bond for mercs'? If it's to insure their ships then surely these mercs would also have to trust the third party holding the security. Would that be a problem? Why are you insuring merc's ships if you've already paid them to do the job? 4. With this as well, VV will be holding a rather large pile of securities for various ventures. I like VV but I've learnt that in Eve, unless you give trust VERY slowly, you're playing with fire. On top of all the other stuff she's already securing... I just get a bad feeling about that. Overall, my gut tells me that this is legit. My head tells me to stay away. I'd probably send a couple of billion for the lols, except for one small point: What you are doing (assuming you're legit) is to betray the trust that thousands of people have placed in you. I've always disliked corp thieves. I enjoy PvP and the rough nature of the Eve universe, but simply taking things that other people have entrusted to your possession does not sit well with me. I look forward to the drama that comes from this whichever way it turns out to go. But I'm not going to be a hypocrite and try to profit from scamming/crop theft. --------------------------------------
Seline Gylen	Posted - 2009.10.14 08:45:00 - [24] There is 30b security bond and 120b merc payment. Why don't you let a 3rd party hold the 30b + 90b from the investors and have it pay the mercs directly?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.14 09:00:00 - [25] I would recomend against investing in this. I also doubt the impact this will have on GS.... IF this was infact legit, which i also doubt :) My parry goes to the investors, who lost their babby isk that cant friggith back.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.10.14 09:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Ambo What you are doing (assuming you're legit) is to betray the trust that thousands of people have placed in you. I've always disliked corp thieves. I enjoy PvP and the rough nature of the Eve universe, but simply taking things that other people have entrusted to your possession does not sit well with me. Except for the fact we know how BOB went down and how in general goons didn't mind one bit how it was played out.This probably is the only chance of 'what you reap you will sow'. I myself give it a 1% shot max that this is both legit and the outcome will be as the OP states. But come on this is ammusing to say the least.
Cick Lunt	Posted - 2009.10.14 10:31:00 - [27] "We are a group of four people, all located within GS" is this the new goon scam?
Kaya Divine Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.10.14 11:48:00 - [28] Collateral is illiquid. Will you accept third party accountant? That person should say it simple will be responsible for any necessary transaction directly. (You will maybe get investment, but you will not see it, touch it or smell it. But you will be able to pay all necessary fees, as soon as you explain accountant why should he or she transfer 1337ISK and why not 1307ISK to person X account.) Shoot your shot...
BigBank Hank	Posted - 2009.10.14 12:23:00 - [29] Originally by: Cick Lunt "We are a group of four people, all located within GS" is this the new goon scam? Yes, this is the new goon scam. Scamming stupid newbies out of their 10's of millions isn't awesome, scamming a lot of smug idiots in MD is.
W3370Pi4 Caldari	Posted - 2009.10.14 12:53:00 - [30] this is higly interesting as it looks a lot like jita scams TARD1 : OMGNOZ I WILL DOUBLE UR ISK TARD1 : "randomperson from jitalocal" ISK SENT _______ Join The"Legit Trading" channel

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 13:33:00 - [31] This should be another fun thread.
Kva Plexcha	Posted - 2009.10.14 13:52:00 - [32] Yih, labelling your detractors as Goonswarm Alts is a curious tactic, and doubtful to work. You are selling a fantastic "concept" that I'm sure most of EVE, goons included, are wondering if it could possibly work. However, there are too many holes, or some obvious ones that will simply be your downfall. This is your 3rd thread on this "concept", I'm not sure what happened to the last one, but I had asked you some questions that I dont think were answered before it faded to obscurity. I have 2(ish) here. You are spending 10 b on "hush" money. Do you think this is enough? What prevents one of the recipients from reading this thread and realizing he can simply "leverage" you for more? Only 10 b to keep this secret? Spread among multiple peeps? This doesnt seem like much and also seems easily to be bought out buy someone else who would gladly expose you, or worse discover and prevent your actions. TL;DR on that question is the 10b doesnt seem like enough hush money and revealing the amount will probably just causes you more problems. The second one is you made a statemnt somewhere that other GS members have offered their services to you - Clearly this means your security, and the security of your plan, is not sufficient. How are you gong to account, deal with this? You asked another poster to post holes, here are 2, please answer. And if your comment will be that I'm an obvious GS alt, I will gladly have my main contact a trusted member of the MD community to have them independently verify this. The only one I trust here is Tesal, as he has demonstarated his ability to expectorate viciously upon said goons.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 14:19:00 - [33] Originally by: Kva Plexcha Yih, labelling your detractors as Goonswarm Alts is a curious tactic, and doubtful to work. You are selling a fantastic "concept" that I'm sure most of EVE, goons included, are wondering if it could possibly work. However, there are too many holes, or some obvious ones that will simply be your downfall. This is your 3rd thread on this "concept", I'm not sure what happened to the last one, but I had asked you some questions that I dont think were answered before it faded to obscurity. I have 2(ish) here. You are spending 10 b on "hush" money. Do you think this is enough? What prevents one of the recipients from reading this thread and realizing he can simply "leverage" you for more? Only 10 b to keep this secret? Spread among multiple peeps? This doesnt seem like much and also seems easily to be bought out buy someone else who would gladly expose you, or worse discover and prevent your actions. TL;DR on that question is the 10b doesnt seem like enough hush money and revealing the amount will probably just causes you more problems. The second one is you made a statemnt somewhere that other GS members have offered their services to you - Clearly this means your security, and the security of your plan, is not sufficient. How are you gong to account, deal with this? You asked another poster to post holes, here are 2, please answer. And if your comment will be that I'm an obvious GS alt, I will gladly have my main contact a trusted member of the MD community to have them independently verify this. The only one I trust here is Tesal, as he has demonstarated his ability to expectorate viciously upon said goons. I'll be the first to confirm that the right Goon director could easily steal a rather large amount of isk and materials. I don't think any amount of isk would work as "hush money". This would just be too hilarious to expose. Actually, the directorate actually stealing a pile of goon money would be pretty hilarious too, so who knows. Try to remember that there is only one thing that will motivate people here: "What is the most fun we can have?" Collecting internet space money for internet space money's sake isn't going to be it. Watching all EvE go bonkers sure would be. So, either taking you guys for 300 Billion, or taking the Goons for 600 billion would sure fit that bill. Though, I don't know if we'd even notice a 600 billion isk loss. In the scheme of things, that's not all that much.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 14:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Kva Plexcha Only 10 b to keep this secret? Spread among multiple peeps? Kva, sorry I didn't get to your questions in the last thread. I've been focussing mostly on creating this plan (once again at the behest of MD users) over the past few days, It's been a bit exhausting. I do state that these are rough figures, and should be taken to be that way. On top of this, much like a trader spreads his buy/sell orders over several different items, in several different types (if he is smart) I have done likewise. No one person has enough of the puzzle to seriously undermine the operation in anyway, merely a single small part of it. Also most of those people don't even read MD. almost every time I've approached a merc corp, for instance, they, and their directors, have no idea who I am, or what I'm trying to do. A good example was recently when I approached AAA (Since this is an 'obvious' step, I've no problem stating it out loud) And not a single CEO or director knew who I was, or of my intent. I had to explain it to several different people, numerous times, during the session. The hush money is kept for those who are aware of this thread. Yes, they know pieces to the puzzle, but not enough to cause problems for me further down the pipeline. I also know the skill of Disinformation. Originally by: Kva Plexcha The second one is you made a statemnt somewhere that other GS members have offered their services to you - Clearly this means your security, and the security of your plan, is not sufficient. How are you gong to account, deal with this? Yes, GS members have offered services to me. It's not difficult, nor a security hole. I have a very public alt right here, he is talking to you right now. On average I receive 8-10 evemails a day querying aspects of this thread, sometimes they are from GS members. I am easilly contactable in a way that doesn't threaten the security of the operation, one of MANY reasons why I continue to state moving public made my plan EASIER not HARDER. Of course, any person who I employ for whatever reason, will (as stated above) be only given access to a very small part of the operation. Diversifying my roles, and actions, is the only way to survive like this, and it's also the only way to bring GS down. Originally by: Ambo 1. Mercs have already been paid 50 bil? Have you contacted other merc corps? Can this be confirmed? (maybe through VV/cosmo?) I will not place any more strain on VV or Cosmoray. I 'might' get another third party to confirm this if there is enough interest in that confirmation. There is a lot of work in doing that, and a decent amount of risk, for limited reward. Any information I share here is on a risk:reward ratio. Originally by: Ambo 2. Your total spend on 'infiltrators' is 130 bil. That's a lot and it seems rather wishy-washy to say that they just need that much. (I understand though that giving more details could be a security risk for you). As I've stated in other threads, purchasing characters to use certain pieces of equipment/be in certain places when things occur/ have certain rights - are going to require a lot of effort and ISK. Gearing these characters is expensive. Also, this pays for the occassional other player looking to do infil work (there are a few). Originally by: Ambo 3. What is the 'Security bond for mercs'? If it's to insure their ships then surely these mercs would also have to trust the third party holding the security. Would that be a problem? Why are you insuring merc's ships if you've already paid them to do the job? Mercs is a very vague term, it doesn't simply apply to the likes of VETO corp, for instance. Also, some 'mercs' are choosing not to be paid, so they can instead lay claim to space, the deposit is there to give these people security. It doubles as investor security. I can't go any deeper into specifics. Will continue in next post.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.14 14:34:00 - [35] Quote: I will not place any more strain on VV or Cosmoray. It's not strained at all. On the contrary, if I had to define what I feel about the matter, I'd say I am as curious about how this thing will end up as anyone else. But to return to the topic, confirming a merc corp is aware of your initiative is not something you will whisper to a trusted third party. For how MD works, the merc corp representative is required to publicly state here about them being contacted, paid and assigned a task. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 14:47:00 - [36] Originally by: Ambo 4. With this as well, VV will be holding a rather large pile of securities for various ventures. I like VV but I've learnt that in Eve, unless you give trust VERY slowly, you're playing with fire. On top of all the other stuff she's already securing... I just get a bad feeling about that. I've had similar sentiments from a few people, and are looking into multiple options. I keep giving as much security as I can, and getting limited love back. People need to give me some ideas with regards to people I can give assets to to hold/security to hold. I am not fond myself of putting 'all my eggs in one basket' Originally by: Ambo What you are doing (assuming you're legit) is to betray the trust that thousands of people have placed in you. I've always disliked corp thieves. I enjoy PvP and the rough nature of the Eve universe, but simply taking things that other people have entrusted to your possession does not sit well with me. Originally by: Frenden Dax Having shown willingness to backstab corpmates and in-game allies, there is no possible way that he (Yih) has the slightest bit of loyalty to his investors. The more posts that I see like this the more I groan. Have either of you experienced GoonFleet mentality? It is very very different from your typical corp. You say 'betray' 'backstab' that implies trust is given. This is not the case. With the exception of a few people with some pretty solid rl ties, no one in GF truly trusts anyone else. Picture an actual pirate den. That's how GF is, people are wary of each other, even the big guys. Those who aren't wary (or don't show it) are either fools, or are completely autonomous. (and hence don't need to be) GF by it's very nature, is an extremely volatile beast, and very VERY much unlike the corp most players find themselves in. I'm not backstabbing a friend, I'm facestabbing an enemy. It's very open, it's very public. If you do not believe this, simply look at the enmity between GS factions (as shown recently when our ex-ceo got up on stage at FanFest for a presentation) Yes, it's laughed about, but that doesn't make it less real. Originally by: Selene Gylen There is 30b security bond and 120b merc payment. Why don't you let a 3rd party hold the 30b + 90b from the investors and have it pay the mercs directly? Originally by: Kaya Divine Would you accept a third party accountant? For a while we thought about doing this. The reason we decided against it was partly because we are a group, and we all vote on issues like this, together. Frankly, there is too much inherent risk in proceeding that way. We would have to inform a third party of every single part of the plan that needed that ISK. We would have to tell you who they are (note, that only one out of the four of us is currently known - and that is a name held by at least two people) We would have to rely on them being online 23/7 because when we make a deal, or change a plan, payment is generally expected up front. We would be revealling to a single person far too much of the plan. They would become a huge potential security leak. I mean MASSIVE. I'd rather have to block many small holes, than one big one. This would mean investing would be a pointless venture, because you would likely not see a return on your investment, other than the investment itself. Originally by: Ji Sama I would recomend against investing in this. Ah but Ji Sama, your word here is extremely Bias. It would hurt you, after all, if I were to succeed. Originally by: kalrand Though, I don't know if we'd even notice a 600 billion isk loss. In the scheme of things, that's not all that much. The figure is 2.5 trillion ISK (roughly). 600 billion is simply the deflated market value of removable assets.
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 14:55:00 - [37] If these "assets" you're talking about are the several hundred soon to be useless towers we have up in our space, there's no need to deal with all the secrecy or bother scamming to get them. Just contact me and we can work out a deal that'll still make you some good money if you're willing to be patient while they sell.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 15:02:00 - [38] ^^^ They aren't. Whilst that would get some...quasi-decent ISK, it would also be incredibly tedious, and time consuming. I can think of better things to do with my time. Watching paint dry... mmm... paint.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 15:08:00 - [39] Originally by: Yih no one in GF truly trusts anyone else. Picture an actual pirate den. That's how GF is, people are wary of each other, even the big guys. Those who aren't wary (or don't show it) are either fools, or are completely autonomous. (and hence don't need to be) Statements like this make me doubt you really are a director.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 15:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih no one in GF truly trusts anyone else. Picture an actual pirate den. That's how GF is, people are wary of each other, even the big guys. Those who aren't wary (or don't show it) are either fools, or are completely autonomous. (and hence don't need to be) Statements like this make me doubt you really are a director. Well since you're in GoonSwarm, I'll let that doubt fester, thankyou kindly. Doubt it if you like, but it has been confirmed, by more than just VV and Cosmo, and in different ways also. No, they won't be revealed here.

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 15:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Yih Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih no one in GF truly trusts anyone else. Picture an actual pirate den. That's how GF is, people are wary of each other, even the big guys. Those who aren't wary (or don't show it) are either fools, or are completely autonomous. (and hence don't need to be) Statements like this make me doubt you really are a director. Well since you're in GoonSwarm, I'll let that doubt fester, thankyou kindly. Doubt it if you like, but it has been confirmed, by more than just VV and Cosmo, and in different ways also. No, they won't be revealed here. I'm a spectator here making observations. Also, I've never asked you who you are.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.14 15:39:00 - [42] Quote: 4. With this as well, VV will be holding a rather large pile of securities for various ventures. I like VV but I've learnt that in Eve, unless you give trust VERY slowly, you're playing with fire. On top of all the other stuff she's already securing... I just get a bad feeling about that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've had similar sentiments from a few people, and are looking into multiple options. I keep giving as much security as I can, and getting limited love back. Both argument and reply come too late and are redundant. - I already hold collateral equivalent to much, much more than most will ever dream to own. - I already play a 2009 character that could have scammed and be biomassed with no tears and I could buy a 80M SP character (or better) and still have some spare money with the collateral of my clients. - I have full API keys of many people and have every record of their "secrets". I know the location of all their POSes. - I already got Yih "true name" (you know, the concept off the fantasy novels). - I already got "interested" curious people inquiring about him. Given all of the above, why didn't I already "enter in action" and get away with nice retirement money, some nice scoop and so on? I repeat: I am and/or have been beyond "the limit" already, for months. That is what people usually say ("I would not scam for 1B, but for 20B... for 40B... of course!") but guess what? I am still here and will give back all the collateral at bonds maturation (and payments to investors verified) and will not sell Yih to the best bidder. Now, call me ingenuous or stupid but before playing EvE I had my principles and just because EvE can be played in ruthless ways does mean I have to betray myself. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.14 15:52:00 - [43] Originally by: Kalrand I'm a spectator here making observations. Also, I've never asked you who you are. No, and I didn't expect you to. Others would have, if I didn't state. Originally by: VV stuff I still believe in your inpartiality. It's up to the Investors however, if they would prefer me to diversify. I'd rather use you as security holder, however (you and I already hold some rapport - you haven't invested).
OninoTimmo GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 17:18:00 - [44] 130 BILLION in infiltrator characters? That's crazy! A little FYI but for only a 500m isk returnable deposit, you too can get into GoonFleet. You can contact me in-game
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.10.14 17:38:00 - [45] Has anyone with knowledge in Goonswarm tried Googling "Yih" and see if it came up with any interesting results? He already said a few threads back that there was a hint in his name at who he was. But then, a few posts up he also said he was good at disinformation, so...
Charles Swann	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:01:00 - [46] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Has anyone with knowledge in Goonswarm tried Googling "Yih" and see if it came up with any interesting results? He already said a few threads back that there was a hint in his name at who he was. But then, a few posts up he also said he was good at disinformation, so... Yih means "change" AFAIK, also linked to the Yijing (also I Ching or Yih King in some transcriptions). If you really insist on putting on the robe and tinfoil hat, there is a GS director who could also add "king" to his name, but that's not exactly a strong link. /crawls back into his corner laughing silently
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Charles Swann Originally by: Dretzle Omega Has anyone with knowledge in Goonswarm tried Googling "Yih" and see if it came up with any interesting results? He already said a few threads back that there was a hint in his name at who he was. But then, a few posts up he also said he was good at disinformation, so... Yih means "change" AFAIK, also linked to the Yijing (also I Ching or Yih King in some transcriptions). If you really insist on putting on the robe and tinfoil hat, there is a GS director who could also add "king" to his name, but that's not exactly a strong link. /crawls back into his corner laughing silently Heh, okay. I did a search and came up with stuff like: Yih = Young Israel of Hollywood Yih is a fanfiction author that has written 39 stories for Evangelion, Card Captor Sakura, Dark Angel, Fushigi Yuugi, Hana Yori Dango Mae Yih But your translation of "change", if accurate, is probably more likely.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:33:00 - [48] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Yih is a fanfiction author that has written 39 stories for Evangelion, Card Captor Sakura, Dark Angel, Fushigi Yuugi, Hana Yori Dango Mae Yih Oh god. Its a Rho.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 19:50:00 - [49] Originally by: Yih They have an intention to start up a small corp of hardcore PvPers (because we donÆt have enough of THOSE in the game) focussing on W-space piracy. Really? This is news to me. Can you provide a link? I know we're forming a new specialized group but it sure has nothing to do with W-space piracy... Originally by: Yih The more posts that I see like this the more I groan. Have either of you experienced GoonFleet mentality? It is very very different from your typical corp. You say 'betray' 'backstab' that implies trust is given. This is not the case. With the exception of a few people with some pretty solid rl ties, no one in GF truly trusts anyone else. Picture an actual pirate den. That's how GF is, people are wary of each other, even the big guys. Those who aren't wary (or don't show it) are either fools, or are completely autonomous. (and hence don't need to be) GF by it's very nature, is an extremely volatile beast, and very VERY much unlike the corp most players find themselves in. I'm not backstabbing a friend, I'm facestabbing an enemy. It's very open, it's very public. If you do not believe this, simply look at the enmity between GS factions (as shown recently when our ex-ceo got up on stage at FanFest for a presentation) Yes, it's laughed about, but that doesn't make it less real. Yes no one in goonfleet trusts anyone else, this is why we have a highly active loan forum with default/scam rate very near 0%. And "emity between GS factions?" Heh. Forum groups into which players are split, none of which have any bearing on how GS is run. Keep spinning out the BS. It probably looks good to outsiders. To me, it makes for good comedy.
L'Artest	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:28:00 - [50] This post is pretty funny Guys I'm going to steal one month of r64 profits give me money to do this. Goddamn you're dumb.

Lag Generator GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:40:00 - [51] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Yih They have an intention to start up a small corp of hardcore PvPers (because we donÆt have enough of THOSE in the game) focussing on W-space piracy. Really? This is news to me. Can you provide a link? I know we're forming a new specialized group but it sure has nothing to do with W-space piracy... Originally by: Yih The more posts that I see like this the more I groan. Have either of you experienced GoonFleet mentality? It is very very different from your typical corp. You say 'betray' 'backstab' that implies trust is given. This is not the case. With the exception of a few people with some pretty solid rl ties, no one in GF truly trusts anyone else. Picture an actual pirate den. That's how GF is, people are wary of each other, even the big guys. Those who aren't wary (or don't show it) are either fools, or are completely autonomous. (and hence don't need to be) GF by it's very nature, is an extremely volatile beast, and very VERY much unlike the corp most players find themselves in. I'm not backstabbing a friend, I'm facestabbing an enemy. It's very open, it's very public. If you do not believe this, simply look at the enmity between GS factions (as shown recently when our ex-ceo got up on stage at FanFest for a presentation) Yes, it's laughed about, but that doesn't make it less real. Yes no one in goonfleet trusts anyone else, this is why we have a highly active loan forum with default/scam rate very near 0%. And "emity between GS factions?" Heh. Forum groups into which players are split, none of which have any bearing on how GS is run. Keep spinning out the BS. It probably looks good to outsiders. To me, it makes for good comedy. stop posting you ****ed *got, jesus christ
Kva Plexcha	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:41:00 - [52] Originally by: Yih Also most of those people don't even read MD. almost every time I've approached a merc corp, for instance, they, and their directors, have no idea who I am, or what I'm trying to do. A good example was recently when I approached AAA (Since this is an 'obvious' step, I've no problem stating it out loud) And not a single CEO or director knew who I was, or of my intent. I had to explain it to several different people, numerous times, during the session. The hush money is kept for those who are aware of this thread. Yes, they know pieces to the puzzle, but not enough to cause problems for me further down the pipeline. I also know the skill of Disinformation. Yes, GS members have offered services to me. It's not difficult, nor a security hole. I have a very public alt right here, he is talking to you right now. On average I receive 8-10 evemails a day querying aspects of this thread, sometimes they are from GS members. I am easilly contactable in a way that doesn't threaten the security of the operation, one of MANY reasons why I continue to state moving public made my plan EASIER not HARDER. Sadly I suck at multiple quotes and such on the forums else I could post this better. The parts I have highlighted are the parts I question, or that seem in contradiction with each other. You posted something on the internet - by that definition its not secret. All of EVE, who cares to be aware of this thread is. And you have posted your "investment" here in MD looking for cash. Why not post in C&P or a more public forum that people like AAA, or x-BoB would see this and jump at the chance to bring GS down. You would be rolling in the cash. Doesnt really make sense to post here. Even Lady Spank, when she posted her "Make Ninja Salvagers pay" in a post that I found remarkably similar to your original thread, posted in Missions and Complexes where most of her mark.. er potential investors browse. She got enough feedback to make a decent bit from her scam, minus of course the amount she returned to her alts when "discovered". Kalrands comments and observations are actually very straight forward and clear, I agree with alot of his angles. If one of your plotters truly is a BoB player (undiscovered), and a BoB player of some repute, surely you could get all the funds through that route?, Or was the whole "steal a unique ship, liquidate, money for war scheme" with SFShootme meant to fund this little enterprise. That might be funny, but it has about the same probability as this scheme succeeding, IMO. This is actually my last comment on this whole thing before I simply become a spectator and watch how it plays out. The way everything is set up, the people involved, the publicity, the secrecy, the time frame, all of these elements are essential if this was a scam to succeed. There is absolutely no requirement for publicity to increase the likelyhood of success if this is not a scam. It can only hinder, and I personally haven't really found your reply to justify it at all. I can't think of one legitimate scam or event that was successful that involved a pre marketing campaign (in EVE) And if you do want the EVE internet infamy, you need to be successful with your operation, people who simply talk about taking down GS are a dime a dozen, and have no fame, and are quickly forgotten. Time to simply wait and see for me, I guess.
VCBee 2fast2furious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:54:00 - [53] After all we've done to make EVE a better place too :(
Tarnia Xavian Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.14 20:57:00 - [54] I don't see it mentioned anywhere, but do you plan to Haargoth the alliance?
Laires Rellik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:15:00 - [55] 1. Post vague 'plan' to destroy Goons. 2. ???? 3. Profit
Orebuster GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:25:00 - [56] send more cops
Captain ULTIMATE DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:25:00 - [57] I can confirm that our titan fund has been stolen.
Zemi Dahut GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:37:00 - [58] Death to Goonswarm
Charles Swann	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:42:00 - [59] you guys suck at conspiracy theories. claiming Kalrand is Yih's alt is just ridiculous, he's only appeared in the very last thread. Two persons stand out however: Kva Plexcha has a posting history, but does not usually participate in MD and Originally by: Yih VV and Cosmoray obviously come to mind, since I have dealt with them both. Though Cosmoray could be seen as a slight conflict of interest now that he has invested? Signore Kaota strikes me as a potential third candidate at the moment. pick the odd one out. If you want to know something about Yih, read the original post about his plan, notice the change of tone beginning at post #42 and realize you know nothing. Originally by: Yih Counter-intelligence can't pin me, I'm already there. Originally by: Yih I believe they will be incredibly amused at who my main is. Originally by: Yih Numerous pieces of sensetive information will surface, I'll even discuss that annoying habit dramaticus has (he knows the one). Originally by: Yih And also, in this case, unlike in those, it's actually beneficial to me that they gain suspicion of each other. It's hard to understand a situation where that is beneficial, but anyone who knows how the upper structure of GS works, will understand why this is a good thing. (which should be the lot of you, I believe it has been publicly explained at least once) Originally by: Yih Quote: So lets go with, how are you going to get those characters into GF? you are going to sponsor each other and link them and uncover everything? or does your life resumes to posting regularly in the SA forums in several different accounts with different posting patterns to make it sound legit? That's my secret. Laughing Quote: I am posting to confirm that indeed Yih either is or has full control over a Goon character in position to achieve devastating damage on the organization. How many goons that could wreck "devastating" damage on GS does VV know by name (she's a 2009 character and to my knowledge not involved in GS/GF) Originally by: Yih Since the time of posting the intention of doing this, I've received offers from inside GS to help, offers I obviously cannot take, because there is an equal chance of them just wanting to turn around and blab. So I ask what makes the most sense? Originally by: Yih There are several spies high up in enemy corps (even in the new BoB) Originally by: Yih With suspicion cast on all of the Executive staff, it's easier to socially engineer certain situations, based on their reactions.
Wim'sei Gallente Semitic Sciences GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:51:00 - [60] isk sent

cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:53:00 - [61] Interesting, I have received quite a few 'potential' bribe attempts from people in GoonFleet and GoonSwarm. I have also been contacted by third parties "working on behalf" of Goonswarm. I was offered 5B to reveal Yih's main, declined by the way. I have also been threatened to be put on KOS by all of Goonswarm or Goonfleet. Quite funny really. No I will not divulge any info on Yih's main. I wouldn't be much of a trusted third party if I did.
Fitz VonHeise Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.10.14 21:58:00 - [62] Originally by: Yih I will not place any more strain on VV or Cosmoray. I 'might' get another third party to confirm this if there is enough interest in that confirmation. Seems like the goons are coming out of the wood work now. If you want another 3rd party I'm available. Services I Provide: Alliance Creation ● Caldari Standings ● Thieves Of EvE ● Titans ● My Links What Makes Me Tick
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:02:00 - [63] Originally by: Charles Swann claiming Kalrand is Yih's alt is just ridiculous, he's only appeared in the very last thread. Two persons stand out however: If anyone cared to google or check, you'll quickly realize that this is my main. Also, I have no power within goonswarm. Pretty much anyone can confirm that. Originally by: Charles Swann How many goons that could wreck "devastating" damage on GS does VV know by name (she's a 2009 character and to my knowledge not involved in GS/GF) Stealing 600B in stuff from us would not be "devastating".
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:09:00 - [64] Originally by: Charles Swann you guys suck at conspiracy theories. claiming Kalrand is Yih's alt is just ridiculous, he's only appeared in the very last thread. Two persons stand out however: Kva Plexcha has a posting history, but does not usually participate in MD and Originally by: Yih VV and Cosmoray obviously come to mind, since I have dealt with them both. Though Cosmoray could be seen as a slight conflict of interest now that he has invested? Signore Kaota strikes me as a potential third candidate at the moment. pick the odd one out. If you want to know something about Yih, read the original post about his plan, notice the change of tone beginning at post #42 and realize you know nothing. Originally by: Yih Counter-intelligence can't pin me, I'm already there. Originally by: Yih I believe they will be incredibly amused at who my main is. Originally by: Yih Numerous pieces of sensetive information will surface, I'll even discuss that annoying habit dramaticus has (he knows the one). Originally by: Yih And also, in this case, unlike in those, it's actually beneficial to me that they gain suspicion of each other. It's hard to understand a situation where that is beneficial, but anyone who knows how the upper structure of GS works, will understand why this is a good thing. (which should be the lot of you, I believe it has been publicly explained at least once) Originally by: Yih Quote: So lets go with, how are you going to get those characters into GF? you are going to sponsor each other and link them and uncover everything? or does your life resumes to posting regularly in the SA forums in several different accounts with different posting patterns to make it sound legit? That's my secret. Laughing Quote: I am posting to confirm that indeed Yih either is or has full control over a Goon character in position to achieve devastating damage on the organization. How many goons that could wreck "devastating" damage on GS does VV know by name (she's a 2009 character and to my knowledge not involved in GS/GF) Originally by: Yih Since the time of posting the intention of doing this, I've received offers from inside GS to help, offers I obviously cannot take, because there is an equal chance of them just wanting to turn around and blab. So I ask what makes the most sense? Originally by: Yih There are several spies high up in enemy corps (even in the new BoB) Originally by: Yih With suspicion cast on all of the Executive staff, it's easier to socially engineer certain situations, based on their reactions. Yih = VV.
Konno Yoshiho Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:11:00 - [65] We got's our fingers all up in your pie.
Alctel Prime JDPON	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:15:00 - [66] I'm da spy in the OP
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.14 22:36:00 - [67] Originally by: Charles Swann you guys suck at conspiracy theories. claiming Kalrand is Yih's alt is just ridiculous, he's only appeared in the very last thread. Two persons stand out however: Kva Plexcha has a posting history, but does not usually participate in MD and Originally by: Yih VV and Cosmoray obviously come to mind, since I have dealt with them both. Though Cosmoray could be seen as a slight conflict of interest now that he has invested? Signore Kaota strikes me as a potential third candidate at the moment. pick the odd one out. If you want to know something about Yih, read the original post about his plan, notice the change of tone beginning at post #42 and realize you know nothing. Originally by: Yih Counter-intelligence can't pin me, I'm already there. Originally by: Yih I believe they will be incredibly amused at who my main is. Originally by: Yih Numerous pieces of sensetive information will surface, I'll even discuss that annoying habit dramaticus has (he knows the one). Originally by: Yih And also, in this case, unlike in those, it's actually beneficial to me that they gain suspicion of each other. It's hard to understand a situation where that is beneficial, but anyone who knows how the upper structure of GS works, will understand why this is a good thing. (which should be the lot of you, I believe it has been publicly explained at least once) Originally by: Yih Quote: So lets go with, how are you going to get those characters into GF? you are going to sponsor each other and link them and uncover everything? or does your life resumes to posting regularly in the SA forums in several different accounts with different posting patterns to make it sound legit? That's my secret. Laughing Quote: I am posting to confirm that indeed Yih either is or has full control over a Goon character in position to achieve devastating damage on the organization. How many goons that could wreck "devastating" damage on GS does VV know by name (she's a 2009 character and to my knowledge not involved in GS/GF) Originally by: Yih Since the time of posting the intention of doing this, I've received offers from inside GS to help, offers I obviously cannot take, because there is an equal chance of them just wanting to turn around and blab. So I ask what makes the most sense? Originally by: Yih There are several spies high up in enemy corps (even in the new BoB) Originally by: Yih With suspicion cast on all of the Executive staff, it's easier to socially engineer certain situations, based on their reactions. nice work there :)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:17:00 - [68] Quote: How many goons that could wreck "devastating" damage on GS does VV know by name (she's a 2009 character and to my knowledge not involved in GS/GF) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stealing 600B in stuff from us would not be "devastating". This is what comes to the eyes: that people just cannot read what is openly stated before their eyes. The sentences were made with great care, not a word should be skipped just because a personal bias sways off what's written. Quote: Interesting, I have received quite a few 'potential' bribe attempts from people in GoonFleet and GoonSwarm. I have also been contacted by third parties "working on behalf" of Goonswarm. Yeah, the fun has begun. Of course they expect to have before the regular mediocre and corruptible imbeciles. Too bad, the MD elites of relevance are => over there. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
marxist revolutionary	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:17:00 - [69] Edited by: marxist revolutionary on 14/10/2009 23:20:13 Originally by: cosmoray I have also been threatened to be put on KOS by all of Goonswarm or Goonfleet. Quite funny really. by who ?? post screenshot i'm not implying i disbelieve you i just want to know which hurf blurf fgt threatened to 'kos' some random empire pubbie forum idiot so i can laugh at him
Sophie Daigneau CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:31:00 - [70] Originally by: cosmoray Interesting, I have received quite a few 'potential' bribe attempts from people in GoonFleet and GoonSwarm. I have also been contacted by third parties "working on behalf" of Goonswarm. I was offered 5B to reveal Yih's main, declined by the way. I have also been threatened to be put on KOS by all of Goonswarm or Goonfleet. Quite funny really. No I will not divulge any info on Yih's main. I wouldn't be much of a trusted third party if I did. Goonswarm, along with almost all of 0.0 is NBSI, so you're already KOS by default. Just wanted to point this out before you accidentally lose a freighter trying to dock in NOL.

Euribor	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:43:00 - [71] I managed to uncover Yih's main.. But this information is not for the Swarm :P
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.14 23:49:00 - [72] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: How many goons that could wreck "devastating" damage on GS does VV know by name (she's a 2009 character and to my knowledge not involved in GS/GF) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stealing 600B in stuff from us would not be "devastating". This is what comes to the eyes: that people just cannot read what is openly stated before their eyes. The sentences were made with great care, not a word should be skipped just because a personal bias sways off what's written. Huh?
Zarithas Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 00:06:00 - [73] I am Yih's main.
Elo Behram Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 00:20:00 - [74] SOLO DRAKBAAAAAAN
LegendaryFrog Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 00:55:00 - [75] The foolproof method to get rid of Goonswarm. Step one: contact Goonswarm's current CEO Step two: offer them some small amount of real money in US Dollars... or maybe just a cheeseburger and a beer. Step three: watch goonswarm ceo disband goonswarm.
Yih	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:04:00 - [76] Originally by: Kalrand Huh? Stop mentioning 600B - it makes you sound like an idiot. I'm not stealing 600B worth of stuff. I'm destroying around 2.5T worth of stuff, or maybe you mystically skipped over that part? Again? Originally by: LegendaryFrog The foolproof method to get rid of Goonswarm. Step one: contact Goonswarm's current CEO Step two: offer them some small amount of real money in US Dollars... or maybe just a cheeseburger and a beer. Step three: watch goonswarm ceo disband goonswarm. MY PLAN IS REVEALED?!?!?! NOOOOOOOO You forgot I'm broke, step one is actually sell ISK to chinese gold farmers, sheesh.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:14:00 - [77] Originally by: Yih Stop mentioning 600B - it makes you sound like an idiot. I'm not stealing 600B worth of stuff. I'm destroying around 2.5T worth of stuff, or maybe you mystically skipped over that part? Again? Oh. Well in that case this would be quite hilarious. Carry on.
Devilish Ledoux Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:18:00 - [78] Isk sent. Go with Goon.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:18:00 - [79] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau Originally by: cosmoray Interesting, I have received quite a few 'potential' bribe attempts from people in GoonFleet and GoonSwarm. I have also been contacted by third parties "working on behalf" of Goonswarm. I was offered 5B to reveal Yih's main, declined by the way. I have also been threatened to be put on KOS by all of Goonswarm or Goonfleet. Quite funny really. No I will not divulge any info on Yih's main. I wouldn't be much of a trusted third party if I did. Goonswarm, along with almost all of 0.0 is NBSI, so you're already KOS by default. Just wanted to point this out before you accidentally lose a freighter trying to dock in NOL. This made me LOL, well not LOL, but lol :)
CaptainAttitude GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 01:30:00 - [80] Originally by: Fitz VonHeise Seems like the goons are coming out of the wood work now. Well, yeah. Posting is what we do. Duh.

Jane Reville GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 02:16:00 - [81] Hello, I would like to invest.
Elo Behram Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 03:57:00 - [82] Edited by: Elo Behram on 15/10/2009 03:57:08 Originally by: marxist revolutionary Quote: I have also been threatened to be put on KOS by all of Goonswarm or Goonfleet. Quite funny really. by who ?? post screenshot i'm not implying i disbelieve you i just want to know which hurf blurf fgt threatened to 'kos' some random empire pubbie forum idiot so i can laugh at him hahaha, this
Tar'an Tula GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 04:11:00 - [83] seems legit to me.. isk sent :popcorn:
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.15 05:16:00 - [84] Originally by: Yih VV and Cosmoray obviously come to mind, since I have dealt with them both. Though Cosmoray could be seen as a slight conflict of interest now that he has invested? Signore Kaota strikes me as a potential third candidate at the moment. Bahwhat? The hell did I ever get even close to those guys? Also missed the 'e'. Sucks to me me I guess, someone missed the 'o' the other day on another game... shrugs Thanks for the compliment though! -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Jack Gates Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 06:10:00 - [85] Hey gimme some hush money because I read your thread
Tesal	Posted - 2009.10.15 06:16:00 - [86] The irony, the guy promising to destroy Goonswarm is the Goon truest to form of being a Goon. If he succeeds, you should make him CEO of your shattered alliance. That was not a compliment by the way. never stop posting...with alts. Now you know what it is to be owned. Mittani alt says hi. I win. You lose. For the honor of spit stained basement dwelling virgins.
Jack Gates Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 06:23:00 - [87] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Charles Swann claiming Kalrand is Yih's alt is just ridiculous, he's only appeared in the very last thread. Two persons stand out however: If anyone cared to google or check, you'll quickly realize that this is my main. Also, I have no power within goonswarm. Pretty much anyone can confirm that. Originally by: Charles Swann How many goons that could wreck "devastating" damage on GS does VV know by name (she's a 2009 character and to my knowledge not involved in GS/GF) Stealing 600B in stuff from us would not be "devastating". not as devastating as your posting, at least
Lord Jita Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp	Posted - 2009.10.15 08:20:00 - [88] Edited by: Lord Jita on 15/10/2009 08:19:54 Don't be a wuss. This guy seems legit.
Kalpaks II	Posted - 2009.10.15 11:35:00 - [89] IMPORTANT!!! NOW ISK MUST BE SET TO ME!!! ALL ISK SENT STILL COUNTS!!!
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.10.15 13:07:00 - [90] I have set ISK to you, please confirm!

Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.10.15 13:32:00 - [91] Originally by: Charles Swann you guys suck at conspiracy theories. Was it not "720" whom claimed he would try to imbed an auditor into MD, in order to audit a bond? Here's a conspiracy theory for you: Cosmo = VV = Yih. But if this were the case, this project might actually achieve its effect: get enough directors scared this thing is legit, and they start working less effectively as a team, perhaps one or two approaches Yih interested in joining? Cosmo and VV could potentially repay investers just by taking in enough in bribes to finally reveal Yih is nothing but a nutpunch to goonswarm, tricking them into paying billions to MD. The ultimate scam. -Dzil Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Roguehalo Caldari RH Ship Brokers	Posted - 2009.10.15 13:36:00 - [92] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Charles Swann you guys suck at conspiracy theories. Was it not "720" whom claimed he would try to imbed an auditor into MD, in order to audit a bond? Here's a conspiracy theory for you: Cosmo = VV = Yih. But if this were the case, this project might actually achieve its effect: get enough directors scared this thing is legit, and they start working less effectively as a team, perhaps one or two approaches Yih interested in joining? Cosmo and VV could potentially repay investers just by taking in enough in bribes to finally reveal Yih is nothing but a nutpunch to goonswarm, tricking them into paying billions to MD. The ultimate scam. -Dzil Maybe we should get Elvis in on this as an adviser
Aurorae Andromedae	Posted - 2009.10.15 14:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Charles Swann you guys suck at conspiracy theories. Here's a conspiracy theory for you: Cosmo = VV = Yih. LOL. Conspiracy theories are funny ~~
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.10.15 14:41:00 - [94] Originally by: Dzil Originally by: Charles Swann you guys suck at conspiracy theories. Here's a conspiracy theory for you: Cosmo = VV = Yih. -Dzil Heh, no. Thankfully, that is not true.
Zarithas Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 14:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Tesal The irony, the guy promising to destroy Goonswarm is the Goon truest to form of being a Goon. If he succeeds, you should make him CEO of your shattered alliance. That was not a compliment by the way. u mad (that your corpse graveyard for destroyed)?
Andron Blaxcor	Posted - 2009.10.15 15:09:00 - [96] Well, Yih, you seem to have tightened up your proposal a lot, which can only be a good thing. I still worry slightly that once you have isk from MD you will be left with a choice of what to do: 1) Pocket what you can and run back to GS laughing. 2) Attack GS and keep as much profit as you can for yourself. 3) Attack GS and pay back investors. However, the plan is better and there are ways around some of these problems without ruining the core of your plan. If, as you say, you are investing more than the amount you are asking for in other entities (e.g. mercs) then this could be used to eliminate option 1. For instance, if you are asking for 120b from investors and a combination of merc corps or other investees can confirm you have given them above that amount then it means if you run you'll be at a loss. This means option 1 is no longer profitable to you as an option (unless you control the merc corp of course). That leaves us with teh other two options. Unfortunately, option 2 cannot be made unprofitable for you. However, I perceive the risk of this is lower because, if you are indeed in a position to be able and to want to pull this off you'll make a shed-load of isk anyway and be in a position where the meta-game of intrigue and corp destruction is important to you as well. Whilst however rich someone is 200b is a temptation, I think the context of what you are doing and why reduces this risk. It is still a problem, but a reduced one. And, besides, many people may think that funding a heavy blow against GS is fine by them, even if they don't get their isk back. So, if you can prove that you've paid out in the region of the amount you're asking for from your personal assets, then you eliminate the largest of my misgivings and close what appears to me to be the biggest hole in your plan. Personally, I won't be investing as my isk is tied up and I'm quite a conservative player anyway. As a closing note, well done with your tenacity. You drew a lot of fire but took notice of the criticisms, flames and trolls (even flamers and trolls sometimes hide good points in their posts) and revised your business plan. I hope you are legitimate and successful. If so, it'll be a great saga. Good luck.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.10.15 15:19:00 - [97] Originally by: Andron Blaxcor If so, it'll be a great saga. Good luck. At the speed this is going i don't see it being filled though.As said before i find it highly unlikely this will not end up in a scam but i am VERRY anxious to see the outcome if it is not , so i hope there are enough idiots like me who like to take a gamble. So in short be part of that saga or faillure
Tokclik GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.10.15 16:33:00 - [98] get enough directors scared this thing is legit, and they start working less effectively as a team, You are insinuating that our directors are effective and work as a team.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 17:28:00 - [99] Originally by: Tokclik get enough directors scared this thing is legit, and they start working less effectively as a team, You are insinuating that our directors are effective and work as a team. How dare he!
Tirestun	Posted - 2009.10.15 17:33:00 - [100] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tokclik get enough directors scared this thing is legit, and they start working less effectively as a team, You are insinuating that our directors are effective and work as a team. How dare he! Heh. I love MD.

Jack Gates Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.15 18:22:00 - [101] I can vouch for this guy. Whatever he says is true. Goonswarm is being brought down from the inside right now. I've already sent him 5b isk, and am awaiting confirmation.
Hoo Is	Posted - 2009.10.15 20:11:00 - [102] Posting in a hopefully one day thread of epic historic consequences. Here's good luck to you OP... I can't believe the goons can actually find MD I was saving that bacon ---- a reply which adds nothing to a thread or results in a thread being bumped with no new discussion worthy content is considered spam and as such warrants a forum ban
Vivinc Laloo	Posted - 2009.10.15 21:21:00 - [103] There is some credibility to this. To anyone doubting goon internal overall ****fest have a peek in a certain forum of a certain Persona non grata (by ccp)
The Slagh	Posted - 2009.10.15 21:28:00 - [104] Hey GS, MD called. They want their forum back
ingenting 20th Legion Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2009.10.15 22:18:00 - [105] poasting in epic goon scam
Kieselguhr Kid	Posted - 2009.10.15 23:20:00 - [106] Originally by: Vivinc Laloo There is some credibility to this. To anyone doubting goon internal overall ****fest have a peek in a certain forum of a certain Persona non grata (by ccp) or just ask us and we'll quote it for you ITT if we didnt have forum drama we'd have to play Eve so I don't think that'd work out
mistress maat	Posted - 2009.10.16 01:08:00 - [107] Originally by: The Slagh Hey GS, MD called. They want their forum back I read MD, please keep your insults to yourself. I am an accomplished industrialist/trader within the goonswarm federation RPing a midget. You can't tell me where to post.
BigBank Hank	Posted - 2009.10.16 10:38:00 - [108] Originally by: mistress maat Originally by: The Slagh Hey GS, MD called. They want their forum back I read MD, please keep your insults to yourself. I am an accomplished industrialist/trader within the goonswarm federation RPing a midget. You can't tell me where to post. You can poast wherever you like, just remember to poast as a midget.
LarcatOfRens	Posted - 2009.10.16 13:54:00 - [109] ITT: The calm before the storm.
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.10.16 14:55:00 - [110] To the people who audited Yih, Was there a clause in the audit acceptance stating you could release Yih's main characters names in the event he scams market discussions investors?

TeddyBr FTW Caldari TeddyBr's Revenge	Posted - 2009.10.16 14:58:00 - [111] Even though chances of getting isk from this is small.... I can't pass up the chance to stick it to the Gasbags. 600m donated. And if I do get anything from Yih I pledge to put it right back into R.E.P.O. to wardec what ever is left of the Goons. Goonie Gasbags: Death Came
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.16 17:52:00 - [112] Originally by: Katiana Swan To the people who audited Yih, Was there a clause in the audit acceptance stating you could release Yih's main characters names in the event he scams market discussions investors? Yes, if he SCAMS (which will include my investment) I will release the main's info and if people don't believe that the chat logs. If the IPO isn't successful and the money is returned the main's identity remains a secret. Any end result in which investors ARE NOT scammed the identity of Yih's main character will remain secret unless he chooses to announce it. note: Most audits have a clause that if character information is kept secret the auditer will release all the information to the public in the case of a SCAM. Names of all character ALTS, etc....
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.16 17:56:00 - [113] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Katiana Swan To the people who audited Yih, Was there a clause in the audit acceptance stating you could release Yih's main characters names in the event he scams market discussions investors? Yes, if he SCAMS (which will include my investment) I will release the main's info and if people don't believe that the chat logs. If the IPO isn't successful and the money is returned the main's identity remains a secret. Any end result in which investors ARE NOT scammed the identity of Yih's main character will remain secret unless he chooses to announce it. note: Most audits have a clause that if character information is kept secret the auditer will release all the information to the public in the case of a SCAM. Names of all character ALTS, etc.... You know, if you really thing this will work, get Ray to invest whatever's left in Ebank into this. That might be the only way to get that back to solvency.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.10.16 18:06:00 - [114] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Katiana Swan To the people who audited Yih, Was there a clause in the audit acceptance stating you could release Yih's main characters names in the event he scams market discussions investors? Yes, if he SCAMS (which will include my investment) I will release the main's info and if people don't believe that the chat logs. If the IPO isn't successful and the money is returned the main's identity remains a secret. Any end result in which investors ARE NOT scammed the identity of Yih's main character will remain secret unless he chooses to announce it. note: Most audits have a clause that if character information is kept secret the auditer will release all the information to the public in the case of a SCAM. Names of all character ALTS, etc.... You know, if you really thing this will work, get Ray to invest whatever's left in Ebank into this. That might be the only way to get that back to solvency. Now there's an interesting gamble.
Scurvy Pestilential	Posted - 2009.10.16 20:52:00 - [115] SOunds like a great plan to me. However I am short on funds. Can you send me 10 Billion, and I should be able to raise the rest of the capital I need with that and pay you back. Thank you.
Arcika Toalen GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.10.17 00:27:00 - [116] I like the cut of your jib, would you be interested in a face to face presentation with a number of my business partners and I at the country club? Say Thursday? 2pm? Round of Golf after? Marvelous.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.17 02:28:00 - [117] i would like to reserve one share for 300 mill, isk will be sent by tomorrow if im going to get scammed this is the most entertaining way and there will be drama nevertheless, if it goes though the fallout will be amazing its a win/win
Rotnac Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.17 04:39:00 - [118] I for one welcome our new lord and master.
Aeon Storm Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.10.17 05:13:00 - [119] Edited by: Aeon Storm on 17/10/2009 05:15:19 Yih, as a tired very old player I know you would prefer some money. I offer you my support instead. For money I lack. Given the way the Goons are structured a plan like this is certainly possible. In my view their fall would improve the game, for there is little love for them amongst the general player base. The ensuing free for all would certainly improve the market, and free up large chunks of 0.0. The fact that such a thing is possible, is what makes EVE a great game. To those of you who question; I'm in no position to say. I only know that game mechanics make it possible, and somewhere out there are people who would want to pull it off. To pull off one of the most challanging things that EVE could offer. Of this I have no doubt. If Yih is such a player, then the relatively small investment is certainly worth it. If he is not, then in my view it was still worth it. Just for the simple fact that a chance to dismantle the Goons is a rare thing indeed.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.10.17 05:39:00 - [120] Originally by: Aeon Storm The ensuing free for all would certainly improve the market, and free up large chunks of 0.0. Disregarding the rest of your post, which was bloated and meaningless garbage, I'm going to focus on this. I'll pretend that stealing from GS would cause them to spontaneously combust and disappear. Destroying the Goons would not improve the markets. Consider: Goons = hated = lots of pewpew involving them and their haters = lots of demand for ships, modules, rigs, ammo, etc. Some of that demand can be handled internally but if you think all of it is, you're crazy. Even assuming that it WAS all handled internally, the Goons do fun things like Jihadswarm, which ganks miners and forces them to buy new ships and modules. Plus the gankers buy ships and modules. Seeing a pattern here? Destroying the Goons would not free up chunks of 0.0. If you think this is the case, you are C-R-A-Z-Y. The Goon empire would be taken over by another major 0.0 alliance within a week or two of Goon destruction. Or we'd see another one of those wierd incestuous alliances made up of the dregs of several failed alliances move in. Whatever. The point is that several regions wouldn't suddenly become accessible to random alliances in empire or lowsec. Originally by: Karanth Or, in other words, random people can't usurp rights from government because they are insane/bitter/vengeful/made of potato salad.

Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.17 11:08:00 - [121] Originally by: Arcika Toalen I like the cut of your jib, would you be interested in a face to face presentation with a number of my business partners and I at the country club? Say Thursday? 2pm? Round of Golf after? Marvelous. I can run 2:30 - Which country club? Riviera or Namchon CC?
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.17 13:24:00 - [122] isk sent
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.17 15:04:00 - [123] Quote: Was there a clause in the audit acceptance stating you could release Yih's main characters names in the event he scams market discussions investors? He was not audited at all. He asked for his ability to control a powerful GS director to be stated by two people, which is exactly happened. No less and no more than that. For the rest, yes, he'll get his name disclosed in case of scam. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.17 20:06:00 - [124] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Was there a clause in the audit acceptance stating you could release Yih's main characters names in the event he scams market discussions investors? He was not audited at all. He asked for his ability to control a powerful GS director to be stated by two people, which is exactly happened. No less and no more than that. For the rest, yes, he'll get his name disclosed in case of scam. Pretty amusing to see you attempting to distance yourself from this. You aren't suddenly unsure of the results of your audit, are you?
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.17 20:24:00 - [125] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Was there a clause in the audit acceptance stating you could release Yih's main characters names in the event he scams market discussions investors? He was not audited at all. He asked for his ability to control a powerful GS director to be stated by two people, which is exactly happened. No less and no more than that. For the rest, yes, he'll get his name disclosed in case of scam. Supposedly you made an audit to confirm that he is or can control in full a Goon's director. Even if short, I call that an Audit (MD Audit = to confirm or deny some or all of the claims made using the tools at hand in EVE). Then you gave free advise that encouraged investment (or at least that refused arguments against investing). No less and no more than that. I want to ask something to Yih that has not been answered yet afaik. If you fail to raise the funds, What are you going to do? Are you going to go ahead without them? Are you going to refund them? How much time are you going to wait if not filling until you declare that the objectives has not been met and what will happen then?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.17 21:01:00 - [126] Quote: Pretty amusing to see you attempting to distance yourself from this. You aren't suddenly unsure of the results of your audit, are you? I am suddenly sure that people just CBA to read previous posts and are just out to warm air up: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1190565/page/3 I know it's hard to bother and read what people posts, so let me rehash it for you: He asked auditors for one, simple, single thing: that we confirm that he's a GS director. Edit: unless he also sends an API key he could also be just someone who somehow controls a GS director to send mails. Nothing more, nothing less, no support nor anything. Where's the support in saying: "I have been contacted by Yih in order to be sent his main's name and thus to confirm he's at least a director in the organization called "GoonFleet"." or "Once people know he's "real" (assuming he'll succesfully do that) then they can make an informed decision, knowing well about the kind of risks involved" Quote: Supposedly you made an audit to confirm that he is or can control in full a Goon's director. Even if short, I call that an Audit The MD audits are financial audits. From the Wikipedia definition: "In financial accounting, an audit is an independent assessment of the fairness by which a company's financial statements are presented by its management. It is performed by competent, independent and objective person(s) known as auditors or accountants, who then issue an auditor's report based on the results of the audit." what you call audit for me is a statemtent about something happened. Quote: Then you gave free advise that encouraged investment (or at least that refused arguments against investing). If you can bother go back and re-read the threads, it was not encouragement (I even state that) but just debunking a bunch of gratuitous flames. I don't consider "arguments against investing" statements like "this guy looks legit lol". - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.17 23:44:00 - [127] Firstly, please remove the big letters, it makes the thread unreadable. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The MD audits are financial audits. Who said MD Audits are finantial audits only? I think searching for scammers is one of the most relevant parts on an MD Audit, I see no finantial check there. Audit was the word used, without prefixes. From the Wikipedia definition: Originally by: Wikipedia The general definition of an audit is an evaluation of a person, organization, system, process, enterprise, project or product. Audits are performed to ascertain the validity and reliability of information; also to provide an assessment of a system's internal control. [...]In the case of financial audits, a set of financial statements are said to be true and fair when they are free of material misstatements - a concept influenced by both quantitative and qualitative factors. Audits here are more than 'a set of financial statements'. Just in case any doubt remained. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha If you can bother go back and re-read the threads, it was not encouragement (I even state that) but just debunking a bunch of gratuitous flames. I don't consider "arguments against investing" statements like "this guy looks legit lol". I was refering to this post and followings. It is possible that you did not 'encourage' investing on purpose, but you go farther than exposing obvious flames and your statements were pro-investment even if you didn't made it with that purpose. Tell me where's the flame in here: Quote: murkiness I referred to was more of a reference to the political distinction between this proposition and other offerings. In most MD offerings the only end goal is profit which is, relatively, easy to predict Althought you state a thousand times that you are not endorsing, nor encouraging investment, that means nothing if you actually do it. You even recognise that you were talking favourably when you said "ATM I have no interest at embellishing his face". That implied you were doing so and justifying yourself at doing it without vested interests. I am not saying that you gave those favourable comments with a second intention and it is possible that you were just impressed by the plan or the talk with him, but the thing I'm trying to say is that you gave those favourable comments. You said that the only thing that matters is the "financial offer", comparable to any other business when other concerns are raised and saying that "he's not just after money" when financial concerns are raised.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.17 23:55:00 - [128] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus "ATM I have no interest at embellishing his face". Read the part just before that, literally the same sentence: Quote: And no, he did not ask me to audit him I've no say in the rest, but this seems to be the ORIGINAL argument. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.18 00:20:00 - [129] Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 18/10/2009 00:23:47 Originally by: Signore Kaeota Originally by: Krathos Morpheus "ATM I have no interest at embellishing his face". Read the part just before that, literally the same sentence: Quote: And no, he did not ask me to audit him I've no say in the rest, but this seems to be the ORIGINAL argument. What do you mean? I have never said that VV had any interest in getting people to invest, if you mean that. Only that the things she said were favouring investment, and said that because VV was saying she didn't. I thought that when I readed it the first time, but everyone has an opinion and I respect that (even if it differs from mine and I argue against). What I don't get is why is she denying it. Could it be because she did it without knowing it or because she thinks it is bad to do so and hold people's money. Or maybe she believes that she didn't do it. I think her purpose was to not do it but she did it without noticing, some of the sentences in which she defends the investment have a few emotions mixed with arguments.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.18 00:57:00 - [130] I'm an idiot, sorry. I misread it. Thanks for clarifying. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_

Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.18 01:02:00 - [131] Originally by: Signore Kaeota I'm an idiot, sorry. I misread it. Thanks for clarifying. No problem.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.18 04:53:00 - [132] gets out the popcorn In all seriousness, I feel that they both performed a bit of an Audit. Sure, not in the MD financial details sense, but they both spoke to me for an extended period of time, and tried to make the most sense out of what I had written. Originally my thread was seriously convoluted, proof positive of my repeated postings in the more 'uncouth' avenues of the EVE Online forums. Both Cosmo and VV helped me iron this out, so it was more presentable and made more sense. They asked intelligent questions. They confirmed that I was in a position to pull this off, and that I was actually that person, not some alt of someone non-important. I feel, that yes, they did do a form of audit. I gave them details far outweighing the scope of what was originally intended. I revealed things (minor details) that I wouldn't here, because they knew who I was. I still stand on the fact that they both know why increasing GS security makes my life easier now, not harder. VV, can you change the formatting? You're ruining my thread :D So, guys, keep up the questions. It seems we've run-dry (touch wood) the lovely GS tidal wave (though I'm sure a few still watch) waves at Kelrand
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.18 04:57:00 - [133] Not all audits require financials. I consider what I did as an audit. I stand by what I stated earlier in the thread.
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.10.18 08:33:00 - [134] Edited by: Katiana Swan on 18/10/2009 08:33:49 Whilst I said Audit I just meant Cosmo and VV. My core question was, in the event of a scam (against MD) would cosmo and vv release the name of his Goon director main. I think vv answered this with a yes, correct?
C'ompass	Posted - 2009.10.18 08:54:00 - [135] 600M sent - let's have fun
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.18 09:36:00 - [136] Katiana, I'm pretty sure that's a given, but if it's not. I gladly accept that be the case.
Jukhta Mein Independent Traders and Builders MPA	Posted - 2009.10.18 10:14:00 - [137] Originally by: Chribba Posting to confirm that Yih has contacted me but that I kindly have declined to confirm and/or secure any parts or information of his plan. Why is that so, may we know?
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2009.10.18 10:46:00 - [138] Originally by: Jukhta Mein Originally by: Chribba Posting to confirm that Yih has contacted me but that I kindly have declined to confirm and/or secure any parts or information of his plan. Why is that so, may we know? Chribba runs the premiere neutral 3rd party service in Eve Online (secures transactions). Nuff said
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.18 10:50:00 - [139] Because Chribba has assets that could potentially be affected if Goons wished to boycott them, or cause damage to them. (in retaliation of him refusing to give the identity of myself)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.18 11:16:00 - [140] Quote: Chribba runs the premiere neutral 3rd party service in Eve Online (secures transactions). Nuff said My only bond I ever financed is off a Goonswarm capitals production officer. How do you classify this? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

Blazing Fire Interstellar Operations Incorporated	Posted - 2009.10.18 11:23:00 - [141] Originally by: cosmoray I am going to have a punt for 600M. For some clarification. I have spoken at length to Yih's main, and I do think he is in a position THAT COULD pull this off. I am not endorsing Yih or his friends or vouching for them, but it is a workable plan. No way to guarantee this, but I am going to have fun with my investment. Tbh it sounds to me that a GF director is scamming MD with fake desires of destroying GS. Ever heard of GS member to ask ISK for destorying BOB? No. It was done in complete silence. And to do what the OP plans, a complete silence should be kept also. Spamming EVE-O forums with posts like this makes the whole operation unfeasible. My 2 cents
Koerner	Posted - 2009.10.18 11:55:00 - [142] Blazing Fire, I've thrown in the same two cents multiple times now, and people keep side-stepping it. As far as I can tell, it's the elephant in the room everyone wants to overlook. If you are going to commit the largest act of sabotage and theft in EVE history, you DONT BROADCAST IT PUBLICALLY BEFOREHAND. Once again I will say it --> Any benefits gained from having more isk to pull this off are completley outweighed by the damage done from publicaly revealing the plan.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.18 12:08:00 - [143] Quote: Not all audits require financials. I consider what I did as an audit. I stand by what I stated earlier in the thread. Let's call this audit. But for me, to consider this a proper audit, I'd have to get Yih's limited API at minimum and with few seconds of preadvice. Having that thing and with no preadvice would lessen the doubts that he got the director credentials and is not just consorting with him. Moreover it'd be possible to check the actual correlation between Yih and said director (requires full API). And much more I won't spend lots of time to explain because it's obvious. Including an effective "I know all your characters" pre-emptive lever against scamming. Without these elements, we can call this "audit" but not with the embarassingly in depth examination I require off those who pick me as auditor. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.18 12:44:00 - [144] Originally by: Yih So, guys, keep up the questions. It seems we've run-dry (touch wood) the lovely GS tidal wave (though I'm sure a few still watch) waves at Kelrand Third time I ask this: If you fail to raise the funds, What are you going to do? Are you going to go ahead without them? Are you going to refund them? How much time are you going to wait if not filling until you declare that the objectives has not been met and what will happen then?
Jukhta Mein Independent Traders and Builders MPA	Posted - 2009.10.18 13:11:00 - [145] Audit only proves that characters are real and plan is plausible. It could still be the case that the character takes the investments and returns nothing. So why are people still letting others earn free isk?

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.10.18 13:28:00 - [146] Originally by: Jukhta Mein Originally by: Chribba Posting to confirm that Yih has contacted me but that I kindly have declined to confirm and/or secure any parts or information of his plan. Why is that so, may we know? Pretty much what another pilot stated, my business relies on me being netural towards everyone, and I feel that accepting OP's contract/request would make my neutrality towards the Goons shift slightly, hence I rather decline a contract to remain neutral towards everyone. Win a Cap Recharger II BPO for 10M ISK

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.18 13:29:00 - [147] Originally by: Yih waves at Kelrand waves back Some people up above were asking about Chribba. I was told when I first joined that he was one of the few non-goon, non-allies that we weren't allowed to scam or attack.
Weaselior GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.18 19:19:00 - [148] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih waves at Kelrand waves back Some people up above were asking about Chribba. I was told when I first joined that he was one of the few non-goon, non-allies that we weren't allowed to scam or attack. that was because he had a goonfleet.com account and could read the details of attempts to scam him
kyrieee Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.	Posted - 2009.10.18 21:10:00 - [149] Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Jukhta Mein Originally by: Chribba Posting to confirm that Yih has contacted me but that I kindly have declined to confirm and/or secure any parts or information of his plan. Why is that so, may we know? Pretty much what another pilot stated, my business relies on me being netural towards everyone, and I feel that accepting OP's contract/request would make my neutrality towards the Goons shift slightly, hence I rather decline a contract to remain neutral towards everyone. Du Sr en sann svensk
RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.18 21:16:00 - [150] Originally by: kyrieee Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Jukhta Mein Originally by: Chribba Posting to confirm that Yih has contacted me but that I kindly have declined to confirm and/or secure any parts or information of his plan. Why is that so, may we know? Pretty much what another pilot stated, my business relies on me being netural towards everyone, and I feel that accepting OP's contract/request would make my neutrality towards the Goons shift slightly, hence I rather decline a contract to remain neutral towards everyone. Du Sr en sann svensk Wild guess: "You are so Swedish". If so, ROFL. If not, well, I made myself laugh.

xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.18 21:51:00 - [151] I'd like to thank you for this. The thread it spawned on our forums about it is rapidly becoming full of bunnies. The good kind of bunnies.
Palmer Eldritch Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.19 01:21:00 - [152] Originally by: Yih GoonSwarm has it's fingers in every pie imaginable, from Investment, Piracy, and Production. To Black Ops, Merc Actions, and Scamming. It's actions are so large that most corporations do something for them, without even being aware of it. Just quoting this bit because I like it.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.19 02:55:00 - [153] Quote: Third time I ask this: If you fail to raise the funds, What are you going to do? Are you going to go ahead without them? Are you going to refund them? How much time are you going to wait if not filling until you declare that the objectives has not been met and what will happen then? I thought I'd already answered this, but on further scanning, I realise I haven't. Probably wrote it in a reply, and then didn't post it for some mysterious unknown reason. Or I might have answered it in scc-lounge. Whichever. Since I didn't, you raise a pretty valid point. I'll answer the last question, since they are all really the same in my mind (you're using technical MD lingo that my brain just turns into mush ~HULK SMASH~) Basically if I don't get any investment activity for a week, I'll call this a failure. If I get some form of an offer from people which means I need to raise less capital, I will close early and go ahead with less (shares still get .2%). Outside of these things, it will hinge on talking with investors. Everyone who has invested has been added to my address book. If It's getting close to D-Day, and I'm short on funds, I will send a mass EVE mail to investors explaining the situation, and that it is up to them to call if they would like a refund, or are happy investing for an extended time. If investors request a refund, I will of course be happy to oblige. I will even attempt to throw in 3% return per month on their investment, for the life of the term they invested into (min 1 month). This would of course come out of my own pocket. For those wishing to stay along for the ride, I'll keep them as up to date as possible re: what's happening with their ISK. They will receive a dynamic portion of assets, scaling up with the amount of people who haven't invested. But this plan could take 8 months - 1 year, depending on how things go. Ideally we'd like to be fully invested sooner, rather than later. I've been receiving a steady trickle of investment (roughly 600m a day at present + donations) and we all know it just takes one or two big investments to get this off the ground.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:44:00 - [154] I haven't read the thread in full, but I have read both of the predecessor threads that lead to this thread being created. I had an interesting thought that I thought I would share. I won't believe that anyone in Eve would believe this to be a legitimate business plan, for a plethora of reasons that I needn't go into details about; the one I noticed that isn't mentioned is that Yih claimed in a previous thread to have 15 billion already, but that isn't accounted for in his shareholders. My idea....since folks have verified that Yih's main is capable of doing what he professes to be wanting to do, my gut says that he and the Goonswarm leadership have decided that Goonswarm is too big now; they're bored, lacking anything to do, space is blue, and they didn't create and join goonswarm to become the next BoB. As such, they plan to dismantle parts of Goonswarm to liven things up, and this "IPO" is a means to get paid for doing what they were going to do anyway. Goonswarm leader/directors get to say, "Look, we did what we promised!" which was what they intended anyway, and coup de'tat the breakup of their alliance into smaller pieces with a golden parachute exemplified through this grand scam. Point being - Yih and friends plan on breaking up Goonswarm, were going to do so anyway, and are using the circumstances of doing so to pull off this attempted heist. I'd imagine that there isn't a lot in the Goonswarm hangars to steal (the very nature of their membership is scamtastic and encourages stealing, which means community goods are nonexistent) so stealing all the alliances' assets won't get them paid as they break things down. Instead, he/they are going to steal the community's money to at least make profit from having done so. It all adds up. -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.19 05:49:00 - [155] Originally by: Curzon Dax I haven't read the thread in full, but I have read both of the predecessor threads that lead to this thread being created. I had an interesting thought that I thought I would share. I won't believe that anyone in Eve would believe this to be a legitimate business plan, for a plethora of reasons that I needn't go into details about; the one I noticed that isn't mentioned is that Yih claimed in a previous thread to have 15 billion already, but that isn't accounted for in his shareholders. And yet people have. As for the 15 billion, if you fully read that, you would know what that 15 billion was for, and it WASN'T for investment. That was paid by a third party who wished a ringside seat, something I offered in my initial venture. He was refunded when I changed my setup, and since then has graciously donated. No it isn't listed, because it's not an investment. Quote: Point being - Yih and friends plan on breaking up Goonswarm, were going to do so anyway, and are using the circumstances of doing so to pull off this attempted heist. I'd imagine that there isn't a lot in the Goonswarm hangars to steal (the very nature of their membership is scamtastic and encourages stealing, which means community goods are nonexistent) so stealing all the alliances' assets won't get them paid as they break things down. Second point. Goons don't steal from other goons, period. I love how you palm youself off as someone who knows and understands how goons operate/work, but you don't. Your 'imagination' in this instance, is very flawed. We give any newbie who rocks up in our alliance a bunch of fully fitted ships to go out and get blown up in. Yes, we encourage those parts of the game (because they are parts of the game) but we do not encourage them against our own membership or even our allies. People found out to be doing this, get booted. No if's, buts, or maybes. Please do not pretend to know all about goonswarm when you haven't even bothered to read their public wiki (where ** like that is explained) Quote: Instead, he/they are going to steal the community's money to at least make profit from having done so. It all adds up. Exception. If this were a newbie goons scam, it would be completely legitimate. It's nice, thought out, would probably scam some members for around the 4-5bil mark if left untouched. Let's instead look at it from a goon leadership point of view. 120 billion is made from our moons in seriously -all time. The running costs of our nullsec alone equate to more than this per month. 120billion ISK is not a 'big deal' to the core leadership of goonSwarm (as the core leadership of goonSwarm) for an individual leadership figure, it's a little better, but still not much. For any in the leadership to use THIS method of scamming, as opposed to numerous others which would get more ISK in less work, is laughable. They would have to be stupid, and would get laughed at within GS for wasting so much time scamming for such little ISK. In no time at all I could pull a scam which would net me 40b, and the best thing, it would take me less than a week. The logic is not there for this to be a leadership scam. The logic IS there for this to be a low member scam. That is mitigated by the fact that it's been proven that I'm not a low member. Furthermore, a low member would not be taking measures to SPEND some of the isk he is gaining (in terms of hiring mercs/ alliances) nor would he waste his time gaining their support. ISK:time this is a damn poor scam, even if it gets filled. I put it to you that your logic is the one full of more holes than swiss cheese. It shows a lack of forethought, and a lack of investigation on your part. So stop being a troll, and GTFO of my thread. You're still *y that I didn't bribe you for your 'audit'. Now your epic 'I'm quitting eve' thread? heh. eats popcorn and watches the show*
ZenAndNow	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:12:00 - [156] Originally by: Yih Words. Welp. From this we can say he probably isn't bluffing. Well played goon sir. May you and this thread continue to entertain, much like PhillipX had been.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 08:02:00 - [157] Quote: Pretty much what another pilot stated, my business relies on me being netural towards everyone, and I feel that accepting OP's contract/request would make my neutrality towards the Goons shift slightly, hence I rather decline a contract to remain neutral towards everyone. How do you deal with pressure and downright ransom, since you got so many priceless EvE icons (Veldnaught and more) that could be used against you? (/me thinks Chribba is an unique phenomenon, someone should write a biographic book like: "Chribba: the man, the veldspar"). Quote: If I get some form of an offer from people which means I need to raise less capital, I will close early and go ahead with less (shares still get .2%). Outside of these things, it will hinge on talking with investors. Everyone who has invested has been added to my address book. If It's getting close to D-Day, and I'm short on funds, I will send a mass EVE mail to investors explaining the situation, and that it is up to them to call if they would like a refund, or are happy investing for an extended time. If investors request a refund, I will of course be happy to oblige. I will even attempt to throw in 3% return per month on their investment, for the life of the term they invested into (min 1 month). This would of course come out of my own pocket. For those wishing to stay along for the ride, I'll keep them as up to date as possible re: what's happening with their ISK. They will receive a dynamic portion of assets, scaling up with the amount of people who haven't invested. But this plan could take 8 months - 1 year, depending on how things go. Ideally we'd like to be fully invested sooner, rather than later. I've been receiving a steady trickle of investment (roughly 600m a day at present + donations) and we all know it just takes one or two big investments to get this off the ground Ok, let me suggest something (harpies, get ready to flame and tell I am siding with him!): Bad Bobby despite the funny name is an hugely respected MD member who has managed to raise well above 100B. He exposed everything in the clearest way, his investment poses almost zero risks (excluded scam ofc), he got a whole group of people to control the capital, he is "famous" since long time, he made preparatory threads that are being used as reference on how it's done. Now, Bad Bobby took months to raise that capital. What makes you believe it'll take "1-2 weeks" to do the same, expecially being an unknown alt of a GS director (GS fame does not help you)? Shouldn't you try and get some more reference material, beginning with Bad Bobby's IPO instead of going ahead like that? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Nobaudee	Posted - 2009.10.19 08:32:00 - [158] As VV said it took BB a long time to get what funds he did and with a secured plan. Goons are scammers.... that's the rep they wanted and the rep they have. The only way to overcome this would be collateral. You mentioned that you have some shinys that no one else has..... so put up 150B in shinys with a trusted third party. Then have that person come on here and say that they have the 150 B in collateral. This would allow people to invest without the worry of a Goon scam, and at the end you get your shinys back. There are enough people in Eve who dislike GS so that this could fill overnight if there was some kind of security. Without it you will never get the funds you want. But good luck anyways :)
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.19 09:55:00 - [159] VV I don't believe I ever said '1-2 weeks' I have no illusions about the amount of time it will take to work up this capital. As for the collateral, the collateral can be traced when it goes missing, very simple, so that's a no (unfortunately)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 10:35:00 - [160] Quote: VV I don't believe I ever said '1-2 weeks' While this is "diagonal" to what you say: Quote: Basically if I don't get any investment activity for a week, I'll call this a failure. I'd consider this sentence as a time out, and a close one. And one we can't check as well (ie you can state you are getting 1 isk a week to keep it rolling and none can prove it's true or not). Quote: As for the collateral, the collateral can be traced when it goes missing, very simple, so that's a no (unfortunately) Business is a "do ut des" activity. If you have huge success and "reputation" this is the only case where you can be picky and say "gimme" with no problem. But in the normal "no name" investee case - and you can consider lucking out if you manage to raise to "normal case", you have also to give something away. If you can't disclose anything it's fine, but then you have to find out something more tangible than "believe me". Because it hardly works even on new investees with solid plans and low risk, why should it work in this case? As I probably posted already, there's in my country a short series movie about an intricate case of spies and secret agencies. The protagonist is continuously betrayed and cannot trust anyone, even the closest kinship. None the less, he has to pursue a difficult objective and he needs the help of those unreliable and probably betraying others. You are in the same situation. The protagonist in the movie in the end pulls it off. What is your detailed strategy to pull it off? You either formulate a viable, working and competitive business plan you believe in and involve others into believing it. Or you don't. Which of the two is here? And how? Not a foggy try, but a real plan on why this should be trusted. Because as of now, let's assume that everyone believe at 100000% that you are the Director, that you have "teh powah" and so on. That's fine. But what happens from now on, detailed in a way a neutral and not stupid investor will be convinced? In case you noticed, the "Goon" or even "anti-Goon" keyword does not impress investors more than so much, but only some CAOD alts. Remove the fluff, show the meat. PS don't intend this as an "attack" or as "she changed her mind". I am completely neutral on the business at stake. Where I am not neutral was at the show of idiocy of some flamers in past replies. In a business forum you (impersonal you for the dim) don't contest a person like "lol goon alt" but with a reasoned argument against the business feasibility or robustness. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.19 11:14:00 - [161] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: VV I don't believe I ever said '1-2 weeks' While this is "diagonal" to what you say: Quote: Basically if I don't get any investment activity for a week, I'll call this a failure. I'd consider this sentence as a time out, and a close one. And one we can't check as well (ie you can state you are getting 1 isk a week to keep it rolling and none can prove it's true or not). A: investment is a minimum of 300m ISK. If people think I am keeping the investment unfairly open, I would gladly submit to some sort of audit. I would like to keep my investors happy. If there is a period of 1 week where I do not get a single investment, I'm fairly certain I'm unlikely to get anymore. As such, I would act as outlined above. Yes it took Bobby months, but those months he also had a steady reservation cycle. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Business is a "do ut des" activity. If you have huge success and "reputation" this is the only case where you can be picky and say "gimme" with no problem. But in the normal "no name" investee case - and you can consider lucking out if you manage to raise to "normal case", you have also to give something away. If you can't disclose anything it's fine, but then you have to find out something more tangible than "believe me". Because it hardly works even on new investees with solid plans and low risk, why should it work in this case? As I probably posted already, there's in my country a short series movie about an intricate case of spies and secret agencies. The protagonist is continuously betrayed and cannot trust anyone, even the closest kinship. None the less, he has to pursue a difficult objective and he needs the help of those unreliable and probably betraying others. You are in the same situation. The protagonist in the movie in the end pulls it off. What is your detailed strategy to pull it off? You either formulate a viable, working and competitive business plan you believe in and involve others into believing it. Or you don't. Which of the two is here? And how? Not a foggy try, but a real plan on why this should be trusted. Because as of now, let's assume that everyone believe at 100000% that you are the Director, that you have "teh powah" and so on. That's fine. But what happens from now on, detailed in a way a neutral and not stupid investor will be convinced? In case you noticed, the "Goon" or even "anti-Goon" keyword does not impress investors more than so much, but only some CAOD alts. Remove the fluff, show the meat. PS don't intend this as an "attack" or as "she changed her mind". I am completely neutral on the business at stake. Where I am not neutral was at the show of idiocy of some flamers in past replies. In a business forum you (impersonal you for the dim) don't contest a person like "lol goon alt" but with a reasoned argument against the business feasibility or robustness. And yet VV, I am receiving investment. The total (if you have looked at the front page) equates to 9.3 billion ISK worth of investment, no small amount. (and something many investors who have more going for them don't get). Some of the Investors are decently known figures also. I have not had anyone come up and say 'hey give us more details and I'll invest' Even though I've openly stated on more than one occassion that I would answer any questions fielded my way. I've even answered Krathos's posts regularly, although he has no intention of investing (I believe). If people have specific queries, they can ask. I only 'flame' those who make uneducated assumptions. If they don't want to be public about it, they know my character name, they can talk to me in-game. If one of these 'market vets' turned around and said they would invest even 300m into my plan if I gave more details. I would. But they don't. Anyone who is seriously wishing more details, contact me here, or in-game. I don't bite.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:15:00 - [162] Quote: A: investment is a minimum of 300m ISK. If people think I am keeping the investment unfairly open, I would gladly submit to some sort of audit. "Some sort of", like? Quote: And yet VV, I am receiving investment. The total (if you have looked at the front page) equates to 9.3 billion ISK worth of investment, no small amount There are bonds for multiple billions getting filled within 1 hour of their publication. Getting 9.3 billions in days and days of hard work is not optimal compared to what you'd get in a less secretive way. Sure, if you are fine with this speed, then it's ok for me . - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2009.10.19 21:13:00 - [163] Now I'm pretty sure Yih is a scammer. How do I know? Simple -- he appears to be taking VV seriously. No one would do that without an ulterior motive. The more VV asks for, and the more Yih is forced to write, the greater the odds the thing will fail even if it were legit. There's nothing VV's lolvestigation can contribute here that will in the slightest respect contribute to anyone's understanding of the real risks. ----------------- Join the ReeRee Brigade!
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.10.19 21:48:00 - [164] Hey, I'll entertain this with a more serious question: How many directors are there in Goonswarm? If you don't think it will erode your hiest, how many are in a position to do precisely what you propose to pull off? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 22:25:00 - [165] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee Now I'm pretty sure Yih is a scammer. How do I know? Simple -- he appears to be taking VV seriously. No one would do that without an ulterior motive. To much displeausure to those who claimed me siding for him, well, I am not going to be soft with what I ask. Like anyone else I audited in the past. Quote: The more VV asks for, and the more Yih is forced to write, the greater the odds the thing will fail even if it were legit. There's nothing VV's lolvestigation can contribute here that will in the slightest respect contribute to anyone's understanding of the real risks. He can reply in game to a trusted third party (not necessarily me) and have a confirmation off that person on the forums. It'd not be the first time an investee chooses to keep some parts confidential. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.19 23:18:00 - [166] Originally by: Yih A: investment is a minimum of 300m ISK. If people think I am keeping the investment unfairly open, I would gladly submit to some sort of audit. I would like to keep my investors happy. If there is a period of 1 week where I do not get a single investment, I'm fairly certain I'm unlikely to get anymore. As such, I would act as outlined above. Yes it took Bobby months, but those months he also had a steady reservation cycle. That doesn't help, you can invest with alts to skip one low week or could it be that one weak week breaks the investment when filling at a decent rate. Put another cap check like X% filled by day D and total amount by day D2 (put at least three checkpoints). I make this comments in the light of the recent BIG titan lottery, without fixed date and the problems it has brought. Originally by: Yih I have not had anyone come up and say 'hey give us more details and I'll invest' Even though I've openly stated on more than one occassion that I would answer any questions fielded my way. I've even answered Krathos's posts regularly, although he has no intention of investing (I believe). I believe that valid concerns should be answered independently of who asked them. It is true that I have no intention of investing atm, mainly because you have failed to provide any solution to the problem of you being perfectly ok (not losing anything) if you choose to scam, being that chance relying only on the word given by someone who's word means nothing. Not just because you have bad rep (being in GS), but because you have no reputation at all. Quote: If one of these 'market vets' turned around and said they would invest even 300m into my plan if I gave more details. I would. But they don't. Anyone who is seriously wishing more details, contact me here, or in-game. I don't bite. I think we have come to a point where facts are more needed than talk, we need security. Even if the plan were perfect and all details ensure it can not fail, this whole venture will fail if it relies enterely on your word alone for not scamming. Anyway thanks for the replies and the thread, it is at the least entertaining and different. I think you should link the original threads in the OP and make some 3rd party check the payments made as suggested to improve it. Unless you success at answering this question by VV this can not success: "Not a foggy try, but a real plan on why this should be trusted." This question has nothing to do about details, but about security, because I fail to see how can you answer that question positively with words and without facts.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.20 02:58:00 - [167] just think of this as like one of those eve banks you idiots keep putting money into Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan
Arcika Toalen GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.10.20 10:14:00 - [168] Yih is Karttoon. Just wanted to call it.
LT Rayzor Caldari Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises	Posted - 2009.10.20 12:42:00 - [169] Originally by: Arcika Toalen Yih is Karttoon. Just wanted to call it. confirmed.
Sargeant Bash The-Secret-Service	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:20:00 - [170] Lol yet ANOTHER Goon scam you are all falling for..

Ganga King	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:48:00 - [171] Originally by: Sargeant Bash Lol yet ANOTHER Goon scam you are all falling for.. Holy ****! Are you one of the house robots? Do you like to burn things? What did you think of Craig Charles when he presented the show on BBC 2?
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.21 08:57:00 - [172] ... I'm confused.
Sargeant Bash The-Secret-Service	Posted - 2009.10.21 11:40:00 - [173] Originally by: Ganga King Originally by: Sargeant Bash Lol yet ANOTHER Goon scam you are all falling for.. Holy ****! Are you one of the house robots? Do you like to burn things? What did you think of Craig Charles when he presented the show on BBC 2? Hmmm..I can see where your name comes from..
Josh Silver Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.21 17:42:00 - [174] Originally by: Dzil Hey, I'll entertain this with a more serious question: How many directors are there in Goonswarm? Quite a handful. But each of them has their sticky fingers in the moongoo honeypot A regular lowbee like me would only recognize about half of them by name, much less know what exactly they do (mostly the logistics and captials ones)
Pearre Dash	Posted - 2009.10.21 21:13:00 - [175] Originally by: Arcika Toalen Yih is Karttoon. Just wanted to call it. Considering Karttoon is the only one that can disband GS due to its super dictatorial nature I'd say yes.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.10.22 12:27:00 - [176] Currently talks are underway which will likely drop my need for capital down to a small portion of what it is currently, or possibly eradicate it entirely. All people who are currently invested will get their return, as well as any future investors before talks are concluded. (could be in a few hours, could be in 1-2 days) Will keep you all apprised (investors have been internally notified with far more detail) ~Yih
Mangtoos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.30 22:21:00 - [177] What ever happened to this? I want to be assured my ISK is being managed properly! How come the auditors have simply disappeared once they've taken their 500mil ISK payment?
Mangtoos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.30 22:27:00 - [178] Vaerah Vahrokha I demand an explanation for your corruption!
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.30 22:46:00 - [179] Originally by: Mangtoos What ever happened to this? I want to be assured my ISK is being managed properly! How come the auditors have simply disappeared once they've taken their 500mil ISK payment? I never took any payment. In fact I invested. All I did was speak to Yih's main about his plan, and confirmed that on here.
Mangtoos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.10.30 23:14:00 - [180] Edited by: Mangtoos on 30/10/2009 23:15:28 What about Vaerah Vahrokha, were you paid out?

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.31 00:02:00 - [181] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 31/10/2009 00:14:27 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 31/10/2009 00:10:18 Originally by: Mangtoos Edited by: Mangtoos on 30/10/2009 23:15:28 What about Vaerah Vahrokha, were you paid out? Sure. He wanted a work done (identity check) with a tombal silence agreement that would survive attempts of corruption and he got the work done as per his terms. Any official identity statement has been checked and approved by Yih himself. Yih paid exactly half of what he proposed as of today. The terms and amounts are his business so if he wants to provide for details, he is the one to ask to. Edit: I did not invest. As my totally personal opinion (that is, I respect what other auditors think different) I consider investing as unofficially endorsing a business ("see, the auditor herself puts money in it => WE ARE SAFE AND CLEARED TO INVEST"). My one and small investment I ever made is in CAIDS Goon capitals construction. Furthermore, I tend not to invest because: - As 2009 player I don't have more than 2-3B liquid and so I physically lack of the ability to have some billions sitting in someone else's pockets. - I am well within and below the glass ceiling limits where working on my own money would return less than if I invested it. That is, I can still achieve more by investing in my own activities than in 3rd parties. Comprehensive reply enough? Edit 2: I and Cosmoray "disappeared" because the job we were given was to identify that Yih could control or be whom he said. This has been done pages ago. Done that, the job is done, I have no idea what else we are supposed to do to nor Yih asked for anything else. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Research Princess	Posted - 2009.10.31 00:45:00 - [182] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Yih paid exactly half of what he proposed as of today. The terms and amounts are his business so if he wants to provide for details, he is the one to ask to. He paid who what? Hmm this looks suspicious. You avoided the question about you being paid to endorse him, where cosmo has said he didn't.
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.31 01:42:00 - [183] Originally by: Research Princess Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Yih paid exactly half of what he proposed as of today. The terms and amounts are his business so if he wants to provide for details, he is the one to ask to. He paid who what? Hmm this looks suspicious. You avoided the question about you being paid to endorse him, where cosmo has said he didn't. He was paid for the audit, to confirm the position and involvement within goons. Any comments made favouring or against yih were made for free.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.31 07:57:00 - [184] Quote: You avoided the question about you being paid to endorse him, where cosmo has said he didn't. Cosmo did not get paid to endorse him. Nor me. Nor I'd endorse him even if he offered money for it. But wait, I wrote I did not endorse him multiple times including in this thread. So, why are you stirring up things? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.10.31 09:20:00 - [185] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: You avoided the question about you being paid to endorse him, where cosmo has said he didn't. Cosmo did not get paid to endorse him. Nor me. Nor I'd endorse him even if he offered money for it. But wait, I wrote I did not endorse him multiple times including in this thread. So, why are you stirring up things? Don't feed the trolls VV because the questions are nothing more then that.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:47:00 - [186] A small update. I have now set up a lottery thread for my identity, which will be confirmed with VV and if you wish, cosmoray. Check it out HERE And with that bows out Carry on.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:54:00 - [187] And I thought this whole thing couldn't get any stupider...
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.01 22:59:00 - [188] So what is going on with the actual plan?
Cys Root Gallente Onefix RD	Posted - 2009.11.02 01:34:00 - [189] Edited by: Cys Root on 02/11/2009 01:39:03 So you're chucking the entire masterplan out the window for a few billions? Months of planing, all the hard work down the drain for a token amount of isk? What about the people that have already invested in your goon takedown scheme, are you going to be refunding them? EDIT: according to this post you've amassed 9.3B in investments so far which will become null and void if your main's identity is revealed...so what's up with that?
Geezelbub	Posted - 2009.11.02 02:30:00 - [190] lol, this has had SCAM written all over it from the git-go. I guess a fool and money are soon parted.

Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.02 02:56:00 - [191] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 02/11/2009 02:57:53 I'm not taking sides, but I think your idea has many flaws - both operationally and ethically. If you want these funds and are serious about your operation, why not consider the following 1 - Revolutionary Approach - 'Out' yourself and leave goonswarm. Then everyone in goonswarm and outside it will know who you are. However, the remainder of the leadership will be in goonswarm and in contact with you. Outsiders will be able to use you as a conduit to finance operations and 'underground' recruits within goonswarm who are rebellious will have a 'formal fugurehead' who they can approach. You can recruit, train and coordinate these people, and organise them into cells, doubtless multiplying your manpower and strike capabilities massively. You will be outside goonswarm, but also you will be the acknowledged, formal head of the 'revolutionary underground' within goonswarm, and still in contact with the current 'underground' leadership, who you can direct and finance. No underground can operate without a recognised 'above ground' leader. You can set an example in leadership that will be a much bigger political problem if you sustain it than simply robbing a bit of stuff. It is clear that your cabal, if it exists, needs a recognised voice to communicate with the outside World and any other sympathisers within goonswarm. 2 - Alternatively, if life is so terrible in goonswarm, why not just leave? Why not lobby for a more democratic system and place yourself as the 'opposing' party and request elections? As an organisation gets larger it often needs to democratise and evolve new political structures. Why not talk and try to improve things? Or just split the alliance openly, taking everyone who supports you, with you. Why do you have to go down the road you are going down which has been trodden and worn out already - just do something different and better if you want to really challenge yourself. 3 - One point I want to make - and it is just my opinion - is that I am shocked any auditor would take part in auditing a non-business enterprise that is at best an internal political struggle and at worst (depending on your ethics) a criminal deception. By verifying Yih's identity they have - in my eyes - involved themselves and taken sides in a dubious enterprise that has nothing to do with MD method of operation or reason for being. Also Yih, did you consider that by putting your investors on the forum and publicly identifying them, you might have exposed both them and their corporations to war decs and other revenge attacks? You are flushing out the people you are calling on for support and putting them on a target list. If you are serious Yih, take a step back, rethink your strategy, and try to think of alternative outcomes and ideas other than your current 'there is only one way' type of thinking. Especially if you dislike the method of operation of goonswarm, then why not lead by creating another way, one they didn't think of, that puts you ahead of them operationally and ethically? Taking the moral highground could be worth more to you than 100 billion isk if your desire is genuinely to make the game more interesting and productive, rather than scamming goonswarm, MD or both for as much as possible. Disclaimer: I am not for or against goonswarm, nor am I for or against Yih and his supporters. I will take no part in operations one way or the other. I am just thinking out loud and am not trying to threaten anybody's interests.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.02 03:58:00 - [192] The lottery prize seems to just be the identity of Yih's main. There is a claim that Yih's identity is worth 5B, because of a quote I stated. Since that quote (weeks ago), I have not heard from that person or any other individual about Yih's main. Chances are that once Yih identifies his main to the winner, the winner's only option will be to release the identity far and wide. I doubt the information is worth much money. I don't particularly like this development, and if the main operation is successful I don't see the need for 5B ISK. The main operation was meant to be Yih's grand gesture, and would earn him huge riches. This lottery seems like a cheap grab. Yih has informed me that the main venture is fully funded, and the difference made up by a private investor. I am unable to confirm this with the private investor (hasn't returned my eve-mails). I am begginning to have extreme doubts about this whole scheme (even though the operation might go ahead and Yih's main pockets the profits), it is starting to look like a SCAM. I need to see more proof that the private investor has invested, and I want to see this lottery dropped. If I don't see proof that this isn't a SCAM and the lottery goes ahead, I will disclose Yih's main on the forums 24 hrs before the lottery is due to payout. I reserve the right to disclose this information beforehand if I believe it is in investors interests. note: I don't like taking this step as a 'neutral' third party, I feel it is in the interests of investors and lottery players to be represented fairly and to avoid a SCAM. I only agree to be a neutral third party that doesn't involve a SCAM. When I think (or know) a SCAM is being conducted I reserve the right to inform the public.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:25:00 - [193] Originally by: cosmoray The lottery prize seems to just be the identity of Yih's main. There is a claim that Yih's identity is worth 5B, because of a quote I stated. Since that quote (weeks ago), I have not heard from that person or any other individual about Yih's main. Chances are that once Yih identifies his main to the winner, the winner's only option will be to release the identity far and wide. I doubt the information is worth much money. I don't particularly like this development, and if the main operation is successful I don't see the need for 5B ISK. The main operation was meant to be Yih's grand gesture, and would earn him huge riches. This lottery seems like a cheap grab. Yih has informed me that the main venture is fully funded, and the difference made up by a private investor. I am unable to confirm this with the private investor (hasn't returned my eve-mails). I am begginning to have extreme doubts about this whole scheme (even though the operation might go ahead and Yih's main pockets the profits), it is starting to look like a SCAM. I need to see more proof that the private investor has invested, and I want to see this lottery dropped. If I don't see proof that this isn't a SCAM and the lottery goes ahead, I will disclose Yih's main on the forums 24 hrs before the lottery is due to payout. I reserve the right to disclose this information beforehand if I believe it is in investors interests. note: I don't like taking this step as a 'neutral' third party, I feel it is in the interests of investors and lottery players to be represented fairly and to avoid a SCAM. I only agree to be a neutral third party that doesn't involve a SCAM. When I think (or know) a SCAM is being conducted I reserve the right to inform the public. The auditors should have shot this down the moment it arrived in MD forums. Whether it is BS or not, it is not a neutral proposition but an - at best - semi-criminal one, and belongs on the crime and punishment forums. As I outlined above, Yih could have taken numerous measures to start hitting at goonswarm if he wanted to - he hasn't yet done one thing to harm them. He could organise a massive theft within days, if not hours, if he was who he said he was - he could whisk a titan stockpiled with a hundred billion easily, straight to the nearest enemy alliance who would welcome him, and from which position he could finance and organise massively damaging ops against goonswarm - all within DAYS or even HOURS, not months. Why does he need 6 months and a hundred billion? And more importantly, why does anyone on MD care - this is a trade and investment forum. Most importantly of all, this proposal is a direct threat to a third party (Goonswarm) and it is not the place of MD or its auditors to get involved in such an ethically dubious proposal. Aren't we neutral investors? We are not here to finance crime or politics. I hope our auditors will review their ethics and standards after this because - there is no other word for it - this is a debacle. Trade, business, investment and capitalism - that is our aim here. Someone who audits a non-investment like this has some explaining and possibly apologising to do, no matter how indirectly they supported it they are still advancing it and legitimising it. Yih, best of luck to you and anyone who works with you with whatever goal you have, but I hope MD auditors make a course correction and assert the core values of principled and impartial investment.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.02 04:44:00 - [194] Firstly I am not an auditor. All I did was state that Yih's main is in a senior position in Goonswarm.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.02 05:16:00 - [195] Originally by: cosmoray Firstly I am not an auditor. All I did was state that Yih's main is in a senior position in Goonswarm. I don't know if you dislike goonswarm or not, but I think potentially you and one of our auditors has allowed themselves to be manipulated into supporting a very aggressive action that is masquerading as a business opportunity. This plan is politics, not business. Interfere in politics and there are consequences - nasty, long-lasting consequences which get dumped on you whether you asked for them or not If this attack goes ahead, it will be war-decs all round from the third party which has been blatantly attacked in these forums by people posing as 'neutral' - and I don't think the corporations those people are in will be pleased when they get war-dec'd by goonswarm and made an example of. Auditing or supporting something so blatantly aggressive is a real error of judgement if the people doing the auditing are trying to gain a reputation for impartiality. And if they think they can do it without any consequences they must be deluded - goonswarm can afford mercenaries and black ops. I am new to this game and completely neutral, but I am surprised it has not occurred to anyone that there are consequences to face when you choose sides in something like this.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.11.02 05:36:00 - [196] Originally by: Liberty Eternal :A whole heap of crap: Liberty, since you've arrived here (not that long ago, I might add), all I've seen of you has been negative. I'd ask you kindly to shut the heck up, but I don't think you'd listen. That said, don't blatantly accuse people without any descent reason / proof to back up your claim. A few facts, just so you can see that I follow my own motto: 1) This hasn't been audited, hence, auditors have naught to do with this offering. 2) VV and Cosmo, the two 'trusted' figures that posted here confirming Yih's main could do what he claims, did just that; so they weren't 'manipulated' either. 3) Neither of the above people have supported this offering beyond what they could prove. Insult the offering, call people who took it idiots, but don't make baseless accusations. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:10:00 - [197] Originally by: Signore Kaeota Originally by: Liberty Eternal :A whole heap of crap: Liberty, since you've arrived here (not that long ago, I might add), all I've seen of you has been negative. I'd ask you kindly to shut the heck up, but I don't think you'd listen. That said, don't blatantly accuse people without any descent reason / proof to back up your claim. A few facts, just so you can see that I follow my own motto: 1) This hasn't been audited, hence, auditors have naught to do with this offering. 2) VV and Cosmo, the two 'trusted' figures that posted here confirming Yih's main could do what he claims, did just that; so they weren't 'manipulated' either. 3) Neither of the above people have supported this offering beyond what they could prove. Insult the offering, call people who took it idiots, but don't make baseless accusations. I'm not getting dragged into this
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:29:00 - [198] Originally by: cosmoray I am begginning to have extreme doubts about this whole scheme (even though the operation might go ahead and Yih's main pockets the profits), it is starting to look like a SCAM. Starting to look like a scam? STARTING? Do you also only throw milk out when it has become sentient and partially ambulatory? This entire offering has been a classic Goon scam writ large; it is utterly beyond me why people are still treating it as a serious possibility. Originally by: Karanth Or, in other words, random people can't usurp rights from government because they are insane/bitter/vengeful/made of potato salad.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:34:00 - [199] Originally by: Liberty Eternal I'm not getting dragged into this That might be smart I should probably do that a bit more myself. -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.02 06:57:00 - [200] Originally by: Signore Kaeota Originally by: Liberty Eternal I'm not getting dragged into this That might be smart I should probably do that a bit more myself. lol sometimes I do need to be reminded

Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:12:00 - [201] Edited by: Yih on 02/11/2009 07:12:06 Originally by: cosmoray The lottery prize seems to just be the identity of Yih's main. There is a claim that Yih's identity is worth 5B, because of a quote I stated. Since that quote (weeks ago), I have not heard from that person or any other individual about Yih's main. Chances are that once Yih identifies his main to the winner, the winner's only option will be to release the identity far and wide. I doubt the information is worth much money. I don't particularly like this development, and if the main operation is successful I don't see the need for 5B ISK. The main operation was meant to be Yih's grand gesture, and would earn him huge riches. This lottery seems like a cheap grab. Yih has informed me that the main venture is fully funded, and the difference made up by a private investor. I am unable to confirm this with the private investor (hasn't returned my eve-mails). I am begginning to have extreme doubts about this whole scheme (even though the operation might go ahead and Yih's main pockets the profits), it is starting to look like a SCAM. I need to see more proof that the private investor has invested, and I want to see this lottery dropped. If I don't see proof that this isn't a SCAM and the lottery goes ahead, I will disclose Yih's main on the forums 24 hrs before the lottery is due to payout. I reserve the right to disclose this information beforehand if I believe it is in investors interests. note: I don't like taking this step as a 'neutral' third party, I feel it is in the interests of investors and lottery players to be represented fairly and to avoid a SCAM. I only agree to be a neutral third party that doesn't involve a SCAM. When I think (or know) a SCAM is being conducted I reserve the right to inform the public. I do not respond well to threats, I especially do not respond well to being blackmailed. If you go through with this, you are not acting in the best interest of investors, you are in fact, ruining their investment. Simple logic would see this to be the case. If you do go through with this, I will make sure that all of the investors can look to you as to why their venture did not suceed, also, your investment (limited as it is) will not be refunded. This is not 'proof' of a scam, it is merely your interpretation of circumstancial evidence. And by this reveal you will ruin your impartiality. As stated before, you would also single handedly cause the failure of this venture. If you want to be a douchebag, feel free. But don't drag investors isk down with you. I will not respond to your threat, have a good day. EDIT: more than I have here.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:28:00 - [202] Edited by: flakeys on 02/11/2009 07:33:44 Sigh there we go again with the usuall MD stuff , It is a scam once the person walks away with the isk for sure.Yih gave a deadline of half a year so untill that time he is fine to do as he pleases for all i care. That does not count just for this thread but i see it happen every time.So far i have invested in about 10 offers over the last months in wich about half was called a scam and i have yet to see a scam come my way.I have seen people i invested in in their turns invest in other IPO/Loans on these forums wich is basically the same idea as yih is doing yet did not have anything against it as long as i got my investment back at the end of the line with interest. As for this offer i said in advance as was clear to everyone the risk was verry high in it being a scam BUT as stated there was a deadline of half a year wich is not over by far so untill then give this thread a rest and leave it to the trolls to bump. On a sidenote yih it also is unfair to blame it on cosmoray fully if he should reveal any names.You could have informed your investors sooner of the lottery.In my opinion both of you handled in a manner wich was not needed.
Roidhore	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:37:00 - [203] Originally by: cosmoray I don't see the need for 5B ISK. Yih, This ^^. Explain or SCAM... Good day!
Alice Teal	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:38:00 - [204] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 02/11/2009 06:11:01 What I found almost delightful in the post you had up was the rather naive contention that MD is about investing in "impartial" ventures that have no affiliation or impact on alliances and corps in game. Before you spouted that out, I HAD thought you might be an alt of someone who had played eve for a while. Here are some examples of how markets affect EVE politics...hopefully you'll understand them some day. 1. If you manipulate 1600mm Rolled Tungsten upward, you just helped Goonswarm. If you manipulate Arbalest Cruise Launchers, you just helped the NC. 2. Titans4U will help small sov holding alliances (vs. large) in the long run. 3. A business plan designed to maximize profits on T1 frigates and T1 cruisers would hurt empire-based corporations' recruitment.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.02 07:59:00 - [205] I kindly disagree with Cosmoray. Don't do like F90X did. To be a 3rd party service you do what you are hired for, that is to be a 3rd party. I have no reason to think you got a different assignment than me, and my assignment was to be disclosed and hold an identity. Period. No judgement (as easy or as hard it can be not to judge a Client) was asked, no security or collateral was ever discussed. Once you get involved in judging what Clients or Investors do, you lose your 3rd party impartiality and this is the worst that could happen. Because people never forget (and never learn). - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.02 09:00:00 - [206] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I kindly disagree with Cosmoray. Don't do like F90X did. VV, I disagree on this one. If Yih is trustworthy and his lottery makes any sense, cosmoray's threat is a moot one (at most costing Yih the money he would have earned from the lottery - but then he did not mention that access to his name would be an exclusive right). Yih claims that cosmoray disclosing his identity would result in the failure of his business plan. On the other hand he tells us that the lottery winner disclosing Yih's identity (and the lottery win would be worthless, if the winner did not cross-check the given name with VV's & cosmoray's info) does no harm. cosmoray's threat has only clarified this fallacy. Regarding your concerns about cosmoray's impartiality: he has a well-known (& certainly controversial) policy of scamming the scammer (Linkage) and his behavior would only seriously harm Yih, if either his claims regarding the lottery or those regarding this investment proposal were lies (both would result in Yih trying to deceive investors and would in my eyes at least classify him as a wannabe-scammer). " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.11.02 09:03:00 - [207] I have to agree; what's the difference between Yih releasing it, and Cosmo releasing it? -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.02 09:10:00 - [208] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I kindly disagree with Cosmoray. Don't do like F90X did. VV, I disagree on this one. If Yih is trustworthy and his lottery makes any sense, cosmoray's threat is a moot one (at most costing Yih the money he would have earned from the lottery - but then he did not mention that access to his name would be an exclusive right). Yih claims that cosmoray disclosing his identity would result in the failure of his business plan. On the other hand he tells us that the lottery winner disclosing Yih's identity (and the lottery win would be worthless, if the winner did not cross-check the given name with VV's & cosmoray's info) does no harm. cosmoray's threat has only clarified this fallacy. Regarding your concerns about cosmoray's impartiality: he has a well-known (& certainly controversial) policy of scamming the scammer (Linkage) and his behavior would only seriously harm Yih, if either his claims regarding the lottery or those regarding this investment proposal were lies (both would result in Yih trying to deceive investors and would in my eyes at least classify him as a wannabe-scammer). No , cosmoray says he is handling in the interest of the investors.Then why have i received a mail from yih explaining the why/how of the lottery yet i have not had a mail of cosmo asking me if i would agree on the terms he states?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.02 10:34:00 - [209] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 02/11/2009 10:35:24 Quote: Yih claims that cosmoray disclosing his identity would result in the failure of his business plan. On the other hand he tells us that the lottery winner disclosing Yih's identity (and the lottery win would be worthless, if the winner did not cross-check the given name with VV's & cosmoray's info) does no harm Both in the in game Yih's mail and in Cosmoray's post here there's a factor mentioned: the time the information becomes public. Depending on when it's done, it can be of harm or not. So, there's not a contradiction. Quote: Regarding your concerns about cosmoray's impartiality: he has a well-known (& certainly controversial) policy of scamming the scammer (Linkage) I fully know about Cosmoray's position about scams. I am neutral about it, everyone acts as to their beliefs. I consider it a Yih's problem as he chose who would hold his secret information. He should have done more research to see if he'd potentially put himself in a cul-de-sac or not. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:02:00 - [210] Well, I am a forum virgin in this whole Yih affair, but what does it mean that: 1) today he edited the tracker post on page 1 to "NO MORE SHARES OFFERED" 2) and on the page before this he states Bows out?

Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:21:00 - [211] Originally by: Cista2 Well, I am a forum virgin in this whole Yih affair, but what does it mean that: 1) today he edited the tracker post on page 1 to "NO MORE SHARES OFFERED" 2) and on the page before this he states Bows out? it's over; he got private sponsoring (apparently) -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:13:00 - [212] I like the new move. I am personally responsible for Yih scamming. If I out him he SCAMS (and its my fault), if I don't out him he might SCAM (and it's my fault). If the lottery fails, I don't have a problem that I don't have to state his main. There is also nothing wrong with asking for more information if you are an auditor or a third party. I will be happy with the investment if I knew that the private investor Yih has stated has invested. If that information was proved to me, everything would look legit. If not it doesn't. Yih stated that his private investor would be sorted out within a 48 hr time frame, that was over a week ago and everything has been silent. The bond was then closed and no more information handed out. It used to be that Yih shared everything, but now silence. The difference is either only 9B was invested or over 100B invested. Big difference.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:23:00 - [213] Originally by: cosmoray I like the new move. I am personally responsible for Yih scamming. If I out him he SCAMS (and its my fault), if I don't out him he might SCAM (and it's my fault). If the lottery fails, I don't have a problem that I don't have to state his main. There is also nothing wrong with asking for more information if you are an auditor or a third party. I will be happy with the investment if I knew that the private investor Yih has stated has invested. If that information was proved to me, everything would look legit. If not it doesn't. Yih stated that his private investor would be sorted out within a 48 hr time frame, that was over a week ago and everything has been silent. The bond was then closed and no more information handed out. It used to be that Yih shared everything, but now silence. The difference is either only 9B was invested or over 100B invested. Big difference. I completely understand what you mean however i feel you are seeing one thing wrong. If in the end he scams then no one should point at you or VV.You have only been here to state that his 'main' had chats and the plan was possible.After that your task as an auditor is done and in my view has been completed both by you and VV.The wish to invest after that is at own risk and all investors should have seen it that way and same goes for this lottery.As such i view upon you as an investor at this point and not an auditor. Don't be feeded by the trolls cosmo .
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:33:00 - [214] Edited by: RAW23 on 02/11/2009 14:34:52 In my opinion, even beginning to auction off his main's identity should lead to Cosmo outing Yih's main. Yih has repeatedly insisted that the plan requires that his main's identity remain secret, and if his plan was ever legit, it is clear why this should be so. Auctioning off his identity implies that he now does not care if the Goons know who he is and the only explanations for this are either, 1) he never cared (scam); 2) he did care but he no longer does because he no longer intends to go through with the plan (scam); or 3) circumstances have changed in such a way that it no longer matters whether the goons know who Yih's main is and his plan will proceed in spite of this. Since this last is extremely unlikely and no such explanation has come forth, Yih's initial offering can be presumed dead (at least in the form in which it was presented). Unless he presents a revised plan that does not assume that the identity of his main needs to remain secret he has already betrayed his investors by undermining the plan that he sold them. If there is still a legit plan it is not the one that we started with and that investors put money into. Changing the plan in such a fundamental way might reasonably be considered fraud if not a scam. I see no reason for Cosmo to wait till 24 hours before the lottery ends to out Yih's main. All that this delay will mean is that another 5bil will end up in Yih's pocket and that the lottery winner will not get what he paid for either. I would hope that Cosmo will put a stop to this now before anyone else loses their money, although I do realise what a difficult position he is in. Apologies to flakeys on this. As a recipient, I truly appreciate his willingness to invest in the riskier options available on MD and I have no wish to see his investment lost. But I don't see how Cosmo outing Yih will do any more damage to his investment than Yih doing it himself. Yih's current actions look like nothing other than an attempt to wring the last drops of isk out of his not entirely successful attempt to scam MD.
SetrakDark	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:36:00 - [215] Originally by: RAW23 quote Thanks. Covered all the points I wanted to, but couldn't be bothered to.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:45:00 - [216] Is this the big announcement?
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.02 15:01:00 - [217] No need to apologise RAW23 , i knew the risk from the start and will not hold a grudge against cosmo if he does go through with it.My respect for him is worth the loss and we all have different views on different matters. I just would like to add that i can see why others feel the outing of yih's main on the lottery will inflict damage to this , you did not receive a mail wich investors did from yih.Do i trust yih's mails?As much as this investment itself but still i would prefer not to blow this up ourselves but let yih give the final word.Be it 'GO' or 'SCAM' is not that important to me as that he himself declares the colour of this investment. This investment is being treated way too seriously and it should have been easy to see it is far from that.This is fun , be it scam or not it will in the end be something to have a smile about.In this it is different from the usuall investment in my opinion. My final words on this matter : Stop holding hands in a game.We are too old for that ...
C'ompass	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:20:00 - [218] I invested my 600M into this scam and if it's not a scam I will be very disapointed
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.03 01:54:00 - [219] Firstly, Cosmoray, don't even for an INSTANT say it's in investors best interests, when I see here that Investors have disagreed with you, and that you haven't even sought out their opinion. What I do outside of the terms of this agreement is up to me. Is my lottery using investors money? No. It falls OUTSIDE the terms of this investment. You aren't some 'board of directors' for an company, and even if you were it falls on you to DISCUSS IT AS A GROUP. I would also like to personally thank you for outting to the community at large on a PUBLIC forum that I have received full investment. That information was for investors eyes only, as was sent to ALL investors privately. I have done nothing but keep investors aprised of my actions (as it pertains to them) every single step of the way. Even going so far as to show them that I was starting the lottery (admittedly within a short time-span) Someone else asks what does it matter? You are not in my shoes, you do not know of the plans that have been laid, so you couldn't possibly even begin to comprehend how the change in plans of even 24 hours would disrupt the entire venture. Logistically speaking, for an operation like this, that is huge. Cosmoray, you would be secondarily responsible for the failure of the investment. You would also ruin the winner of the lotteries prize. I say secondarily because the primary person responsible would be me, for trusting an impartial third party AT THE BEHEST OF THIS FORUM, who wasn't impartial. The fact of the matter is, don't LIE anymore by saying 'in the interest of the investors' when several of them have already asked that you don't. rename it to 'in the interest of myself' because that is what it boils down to.
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.03 01:59:00 - [220] Edited by: RAW23 on 03/11/2009 02:00:51 Originally by: Yih Cosmoray, you would be secondarily responsible for the failure of the investment. You would also ruin the winner of the lotteries prize. I say secondarily because the primary person responsible would be me, for trusting an impartial third party AT THE BEHEST OF THIS FORUM, who wasn't impartial. Or, the responsibility might be yours for taking the step of setting up the lottery. Or is that another essential part of the unfathomably deep plan that we mushrooms couldn't possibly grasp, a part of the plan that only LOOKS like an attempt to wring a few more isk out of the venture? Wheels within wheels ... You could always solve the problem by cancelling the lottery, thus securing the critical 24 hours.

cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.03 02:32:00 - [221] Originally by: Yih Firstly, Cosmoray, don't even for an INSTANT say it's in investors best interests, when I see here that Investors have disagreed with you, and that you haven't even sought out their opinion. What I do outside of the terms of this agreement is up to me. Is my lottery using investors money? No. It falls OUTSIDE the terms of this investment. You aren't some 'board of directors' for an company, and even if you were it falls on you to DISCUSS IT AS A GROUP. I would also like to personally thank you for outting to the community at large on a PUBLIC forum that I have received full investment. That information was for investors eyes only, as was sent to ALL investors privately. I have done nothing but keep investors aprised of my actions (as it pertains to them) every single step of the way. Even going so far as to show them that I was starting the lottery (admittedly within a short time-span) Someone else asks what does it matter? You are not in my shoes, you do not know of the plans that have been laid, so you couldn't possibly even begin to comprehend how the change in plans of even 24 hours would disrupt the entire venture. Logistically speaking, for an operation like this, that is huge. Cosmoray, you would be secondarily responsible for the failure of the investment. You would also ruin the winner of the lotteries prize. I say secondarily because the primary person responsible would be me, for trusting an impartial third party AT THE BEHEST OF THIS FORUM, who wasn't impartial. The fact of the matter is, don't LIE anymore by saying 'in the interest of the investors' when several of them have already asked that you don't. rename it to 'in the interest of myself' because that is what it boils down to. I'll admit here I made a mistake. I was asked just to confirm that Yih's main could do what he stated. I did that. That should have ended my involvement. My mistake was investing (damaging my neutrality), and I may be acting as an investor. For the sake of my neutrality, it would be best if Yih just refunded my 600M ISK and I will withdraw from the whole scenario. I did the job I was asked and that be that. Lesson learned for future. Don't invest when acting as a third party. Yih, please refund my 600M ISK and I will bow out gracefully.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.03 02:39:00 - [222] It's the principal of the thing, more than anything else. I shouldn't have to cancel something that I want to do because some bully blackmails me. And that's what this comes down to. Cosmoray, your 600m will be refunded, please allow up to 48 hours for the release.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.03 03:41:00 - [223] no one is blocked on my account. Should accept
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.03 03:42:00 - [224] Wierd was saying 'offline or unreachable' when you were online shrugs
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.03 09:07:00 - [225] Originally by: Yih I think Cosmo is a pretty neat person, all around, and hopefully his rash actions here will not damage his reputation further. It won't period. As for the investment it should be obvious from my responses i want to see it go through.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.03 09:37:00 - [226] Quote: My mistake was investing (damaging my neutrality), and I may be acting as an investor. That's why I tend to keep out of the bonds / IPOs I audit. The risk of looking like you are sponsoring them is tangible, expecially if they are risky. Quote: Wierd was saying 'offline or unreachable' when you were online shrugs It's an old and documented bug. Green light while the guy is offline since 3 hours. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.03 13:24:00 - [227] Originally by: C'ompass I invested my 600M into this scam and if it's not a scam I will be very disapointed
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.03 17:22:00 - [228] Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 03/11/2009 17:23:04 Originally by: cosmoray Lesson learned for future. Don't invest when acting as a third party. I'd also like to point out, and I hope you don't just dismiss me thinking I'm too noob to matter, but it was a mistake even to threaten that you would disclose his main. Unless there were terms up front that you should have disclosed to Yih here on the forums that you would hold this over him if you suspected a scam, until such event that it became a confirmed scam, you should hold that information to the grave. Even here you confirmed so: Originally by: cosmoray No I will not divulge any info on Yih's main. I wouldn't be much of a trusted third party if I did. Even in the event of a scam it hits a grey area whether you out him or not. If your original proposal to Yih was that you would confirm he had a main in this position, you should confirm and hold the secret, or else as you said, you wouldn't be much of a trusted third party if you didn't. If there were some terms to your agreement that had been publicly posted, you would be within your right to out him. I'm not sure how others would view your threats here, but that's my opinion. EDIT: I'm not saying I don't want to know. Just my thoughts on honesty and holding your word when it comes to Eve trust.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:30:00 - [229] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 03/11/2009 17:23:04 Originally by: cosmoray Lesson learned for future. Don't invest when acting as a third party. I'd also like to point out, and I hope you don't just dismiss me thinking I'm too noob to matter, but it was a mistake even to threaten that you would disclose his main. Unless there were terms up front that you should have disclosed to Yih here on the forums that you would hold this over him if you suspected a scam, until such event that it became a confirmed scam, you should hold that information to the grave. Even here you confirmed so: Originally by: cosmoray No I will not divulge any info on Yih's main. I wouldn't be much of a trusted third party if I did. Even in the event of a scam it hits a grey area whether you out him or not. If your original proposal to Yih was that you would confirm he had a main in this position, you should confirm and hold the secret, or else as you said you wouldn't be much of a trusted third party if you didn't. If there were some terms to your agreement that had been publicly posted, you would be within your right to out him. I'm not sure how others would view your threats here, but that's my opinion. EDIT: I'm not saying I don't want to know. Just my thoughts on honesty and holding your word when it comes to Eve trust. I'll agree I made some mistakes here. It is difficult having two heads. As an investor or observer I question EVERYTHING. As a third party you have to keep quiet. Some minor damage was done, not to the main operation though. In future I will not be involved as both again. I will either invest OR will act as third party. My word is still intact, and I have NEVER gone back on it during my time in MD.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:36:00 - [230] Originally by: cosmoray My word is still intact, and I have NEVER gone back on it during my time in MD. Yes, I see that is true here. And I'm glad, for everyone's sakes, that you didn't go forward and make that mistake. But, btw, who is Yih's main?

Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:58:00 - [231] Cosmo, would you mind posting to confirm when/if you receive the 600M back? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.03 22:13:00 - [232] Originally by: Dzil Cosmo, would you mind posting to confirm when/if you receive the 600M back? I will.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.03 22:51:00 - [233] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Dzil Cosmo, would you mind posting to confirm when/if you receive the 600M back? I will. If you don't receive the 600M back, will you be revealing his name?
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2009.11.04 01:04:00 - [234] Edited by: Jovialmadness on 04/11/2009 01:05:26 if you guys are so gullible im so gonna create a scam just to punish all of you lol. ok im not, but i should Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
Spectre Wraith Darwin Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.04 04:54:00 - [235] /popcorn
Lucius Killian Caldari Malevolent Intentions Dark Solar Empire	Posted - 2009.11.04 08:49:00 - [236] GoonSwarm is too big to fail. Obama will bail them out if they get too close to the edge...
Mangtoos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:49:00 - [237] Edited by: Mangtoos on 04/11/2009 16:49:12 So in summary. The Cosmo guy was never paid to provide his comments, but invested into the OP. That IT Alliance guy was paid ISK to review the situation, and provide his positive comments saying that Yih has the capability to pull this off and THINGS WILL BE INTERESTING. Chribba has refused to even look at this because he wouldn't want to take payment to endorse such an obvious scam, even if he could make some money simply validating a character. At least Chribba is still has integrity and ethics.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.04 16:55:00 - [238] Originally by: Mangtoos That IT Alliance guy was paid ISK to review the situation, and provide his positive comments saying that Yih has the capability to pull this off and THINGS WILL BE INTERESTING. VV is always paid for her audits, etc, and is up front about it. Any investors or third parties that feel that that compromises his can take that it or leave it. Seeing as this usually operates at a loss for the time spent, I wouldn't take that in itself to mean that he was paid off for anything. At the very least, he is always up front about it, vicious in his audits when warranted, even when being paid, and doesn't betray the trust of those he audits or acts as third party to. I'd say he still has integrity and ethics as well. Cosmo came close to the edge and made the mistake in investing. Lesson learned.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.04 17:58:00 - [239] Quote: That IT Alliance guy was paid ISK to review the situation, No Quote: and provide his positive comments No Quote: saying that Yih has the capability to pull this off and. No Quote: THINGS WILL BE INTERESTING The only part of your lolpost worth answering: I hoped it'd be interesting to follow and all I got is this lottery shirt. Quote: Chribba has refused to even look at this because he wouldn't want to take payment to endorse such an obvious scam No Quote: , even if he could make some money simply validating a character. Why, do you refuse your salary? Quote: At least Chribba is still has integrity and ethics Chribba by his own words (and not your claims) refused because he felt he'd risk being considered somewhat less neutral and would have much more to lose than to gain. That's legitimate defense of his own interests, not "integrity" nor "ethics". I on the other side have nothing to lose but a Maelstrom with beginner fit. I received something huge instead, something VERY hard to simulate. The final proof that in case of extreme pressure I'd laugh in the face of corruptors and detractors whatever the sum offered, which to my joy revealed to be succesful. My integrity in any case is easily measured by what the others do with me. I don't see anyone stopping handing me collateral to hold nor stopping handing me hard earned BPOs and T2 components for me to work on in my new venture. They know that unless I die, I'll honor my side of the deal. In the case I die I hope those who instructed to log in and give everyone their stuff back will do so. My life is that simple. Quote: VV is always paid for her audits, etc, and is up front about it. Thank you a lot, Dretzle. You also give me more transparency opportunity, which I'll use now: I audited for free for quite some time, including graphs and whatsnot. Then I asked myself the following: 1) Do they appreciate having audits done for free? These happened before JEvEAssets was out and auditing was so much more annoying. The answer as I painfully learned: no. 2) Can they respect work done for free? Or think it's free because of low quality or committment? The answer was "few do, most - beyond empty words - show their respect by paying for it". 3) Is my time worthless? Do anywhere appreciated consultants work for free? Again, the answer was no. Since I can mine or mission (I know a Maelstrom is not the end of the universe) I can earn coin I don't earn when auditing. At least have them paying like I was mining (notice, not like I was missioning)! Deduction: have people shell some cash. In the specific case, I was offered money. The quantity got decided by Yih, to be given in two segments. One half at identity checked, one half after the proponent's initiative would effectively enter in action. If anyone got other questions I am here to answer - as long as it's about my persona decisions or actions and not Yih's or affecting Yih's operation. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 04:02:00 - [240] Originally by: Mangtoos Edited by: Mangtoos on 04/11/2009 16:49:12 So in summary. The Cosmo guy was never paid to provide his comments, but invested into the OP. That IT Alliance guy was paid ISK to review the situation, and provide his positive comments saying that Yih has the capability to pull this off and THINGS WILL BE INTERESTING. Chribba has refused to even look at this because he wouldn't want to take payment to endorse such an obvious scam, even if he could make some money simply validating a character. At least Chribba is still has integrity and ethics. So lets cut to the chase. This was a scam from the start. It was successful because everyone knew it was probably a scam, but thought it was funny and it had high entertainment value for bored people with too much isk. Now its not funny any more. Its boring. And the Goons have started whining with their shrill squeeky little voices. Also, no Goon can talk about "integrity". That is the entire point of being a Goon, that they lack integrity. Its a bit like a prostitute talking about their virginity. You all have no integrity, but I guess a lot of Goons are virgins. So this is a confusing analogy and doesn't work very well. This thread was funny when it started. Let the Goon do the lottery, who cares. Its a stupid and boring idea. This is how you know Goons have gone to crap. I declare this a scam. Nice job Yih, you took something potentially to be one of the funniest things ever and turned it to crap. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist

cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 04:40:00 - [241] Yeah its officially a SCAM. I didn't get my ISK back. I wanted to invest because I thought it would be quite fun, most likely losing my cash (which I did). I actually shouldn't have because I acted as a third party neutral. After Yih failed to raise a huge amount of ISK, he stated he had an investor to potentially cover the rest. This was sent as a private eve-mail to investors. I got confirmation that didn't happen. As a last grab to get the extra cash Yih launched the lottery. At that point it was obvious a slam dunk SCAM, which is the reason I made a fuss. I was hoping no one else would have invested after I asked for a refund, but it seems that someone might have (300M). I think Yih could have played it out longer as time was on his side the lottery was a mistake. After my statements on here I actually ended up playing poker with Yih (his ALT) on EOH, and he confirmed the SCAM. I couldn't post for the 48 hrs I gave because I didn't have chat logs for proof. Props to Yih it was a good SCAM, well thought out and a lot of detail. The players involved (may or may not be Yih's ALTS): Yih and for those wondering about the Goon director, it was the main man himself: KARTTOON
Spectre Wraith Darwin Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.05 04:58:00 - [242] There's always Ebank.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.05 07:41:00 - [243] If so then i'd say: Entertainment value : 9/10 Investment value: because of above still 2/10 Would invest again .... But all this work just for about 4 or 5 bille isk?Then karttoon can learn a lot from jita and MD scammers
Blarghatred	Posted - 2009.11.05 07:54:00 - [244] was expecting more . o0h well maybe there will be a better scam next time...
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:16:00 - [245] Damn, I didn't even get to go to the jazz festival. :P Kudo's for the three tier investment, cardinal biggles. I know it wasn't much, but 3.6 billion ISK is hard to come by for a 6 week old player. :) Thanks a bunch to all who enjoyed, I'm glad there was popcorn and enjoyment to be had. Yih will be around, as I've decided to try this whole thing as a career of sorts. At least for now. For the criticism on the lottery, it wasn't required, but I thought it would be a fun idea - and it caused more drama along the way (thanks cosmoray) I will keep this thread up and active, and unlike past scammers, I have no intentions of dissapearing. For those who have read this far, but have not seen all the threads, they are as follows, and shall be kept here for posterity: MY first announcement: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1189844 Followed by In-character and general discussion announcements. Here and Here Second offering, revamped here I know you will mostly call lies and slander, but this is not the work of Karttoon. As VV stated, about half way through I found that I needed to proove to MD I was in a position. Who better to be in that position, than the CEO himself. He was given 50% of 'most' of the funds, I cut him off about 4 days ago. The real player, is no more than 6 weeks old as of today's posting. It can really be seen in my early posts where I knew obviously very little of Goons or how they worked. If I'd known they were scammers I would have chose a better target. So thankyou, those who invested (most of which were 'for the lols') you helped a new player purchase 2 characters for her account, several plexes, and a 1.5billion ISK harbinger which was promptly lost within 2 hours of fitting ^-^ Till next time, MD. ~Yih.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:34:00 - [246] I feel so relieved I always said "can control a powerful character" instead of IS a powerful character. To those who said I was lieing (I'll never learn how to type it) about said character disruptive potential, now you see he had it. The negative about all of this that affected me: I thought Goons were more funny and light-hearted. Yih as newbie acted like a Goon better than the "real ones". - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
karttoon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:36:00 - [247] You're an idiot. Thanks for half the isk Yih.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 08:50:00 - [248] Originally by: karttoon Edited by: karttoon on 05/11/2009 08:41:59 You're an idiot. Thanks for half the isk Yih. Lol someone is modding the eve-search pages. Who are you referring to? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.05 09:06:00 - [249] Originally by: Yih Damn, I didn't even get to go to the jazz festival. :P Kudo's for the three tier investment, cardinal biggles. I know it wasn't much, but 3.6 billion ISK is hard to come by for a 6 week old player. :) Thanks a bunch to all who enjoyed, I'm glad there was popcorn and enjoyment to be had. Yih will be around, as I've decided to try this whole thing as a career of sorts. At least for now. For the criticism on the lottery, it wasn't required, but I thought it would be a fun idea - and it caused more drama along the way (thanks cosmoray) I will keep this thread up and active, and unlike past scammers, I have no intentions of dissapearing. For those who have read this far, but have not seen all the threads, they are as follows, and shall be kept here for posterity: MY first announcement: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1189844 Followed by In-character and general discussion announcements. Here and Here Second offering, revamped here I know you will mostly call lies and slander, but this is not the work of Karttoon. As VV stated, about half way through I found that I needed to proove to MD I was in a position. Who better to be in that position, than the CEO himself. He was given 50% of 'most' of the funds, I cut him off about 4 days ago. The real player, is no more than 6 weeks old as of today's posting. It can really be seen in my early posts where I knew obviously very little of Goons or how they worked. If I'd known they were scammers I would have chose a better target. So thankyou, those who invested (most of which were 'for the lols') you helped a new player purchase 2 characters for her account, several plexes, and a 1.5billion ISK harbinger which was promptly lost within 2 hours of fitting ^-^ Till next time, MD. ~Yih. I had you figured out Yih I would have put the evidence on here but I got shouted down by the people you conned, you have to admire the irony
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 09:14:00 - [250] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Originally by: Yih Damn, I didn't even get to go to the jazz festival. :P Kudo's for the three tier investment, cardinal biggles. I know it wasn't much, but 3.6 billion ISK is hard to come by for a 6 week old player. :) Thanks a bunch to all who enjoyed, I'm glad there was popcorn and enjoyment to be had. Yih will be around, as I've decided to try this whole thing as a career of sorts. At least for now. For the criticism on the lottery, it wasn't required, but I thought it would be a fun idea - and it caused more drama along the way (thanks cosmoray) I will keep this thread up and active, and unlike past scammers, I have no intentions of dissapearing. For those who have read this far, but have not seen all the threads, they are as follows, and shall be kept here for posterity: MY first announcement: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1189844 Followed by In-character and general discussion announcements. Here and Here Second offering, revamped here I know you will mostly call lies and slander, but this is not the work of Karttoon. As VV stated, about half way through I found that I needed to proove to MD I was in a position. Who better to be in that position, than the CEO himself. He was given 50% of 'most' of the funds, I cut him off about 4 days ago. The real player, is no more than 6 weeks old as of today's posting. It can really be seen in my early posts where I knew obviously very little of Goons or how they worked. If I'd known they were scammers I would have chose a better target. So thankyou, those who invested (most of which were 'for the lols') you helped a new player purchase 2 characters for her account, several plexes, and a 1.5billion ISK harbinger which was promptly lost within 2 hours of fitting ^-^ Till next time, MD. ~Yih. I had you figured out Yih I would have put the evidence on here but I got shouted down by the people you conned, you have to admire the irony Grats, want a cookie?

Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.05 09:28:00 - [251] "Maybe we should get Elvis in on this as an adviser" The above quote was my only contribution to this thread. I really Think VV and Cosmoray, with the benefit of hindsight ofc, should re-evaluate their part in this. It would probably have been better to decline, as Chribba did, to get involved . Their involvement gave this risible scheme a measure of credence it never deserved.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.05 09:31:00 - [252] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 05/11/2009 09:31:41 Originally by: corestwo Grats, want a cookie? No, how about a job instead - MD head of counter-intelligence? Always wanted to be James Bond
Charles Swann	Posted - 2009.11.05 09:43:00 - [253] Originally by: Yih So thankyou, those who invested (most of which were 'for the lols') you helped a new player purchase 2 characters for her account, several plexes, and a 1.5billion ISK harbinger which was promptly lost within 2 hours of fitting ^-^ if you're karttoon, that sentence is one of the best attempts at social engineering I can recall seeing in EVE. If your story is true: 3.6 - 1.5 (Harbinger) = 2.1 = 2 characters + n * 0.3 (plexes), n >= 2 you make money multiply , welcome to MD
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 10:06:00 - [254] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/11/2009 10:09:30 Quote: I really Think VV and Cosmoray, with the benefit of hindsight ofc, should re-evaluate their part in this. It would probably have been better to decline, as Chribba did, to get involved . Their involvement gave this risible scheme a measure of credence it never deserved You have to distinguish the jobs. When auditing, I check for skills and stuff and create a report to inform investors. Never, never straight supported an investee to have investors flock on the investment and always state to not invest what you cannot afford to lose. Sooner or later some of the audited guys will scam. Because an audit is just what it is meant to be: information. As such when (not if, it's a when as it's just going to happen sooner or later) I'll audit someone who will scam. Like always I'll have said that the guy was able to do what he claimed. But that's not endorsement, it's a feasibility statement. When acting as 3rd party it's different. You hold something. That's it. There's no audit. No request for clarity (even if it'd be welcome) or detective work. To be more frank, if someone needs a 3rd party it's because trust IS an issue in the deal. Once again, I did not invest (as usual) to show no committment or support was pressured. As I said in another post, for me this was not a proper audit (edit: as I said other times, when I state things it's not for nothing. Investors should ALWAYS read well. Saying something is "not an audit for me" has a meaning and weight). This was a 3rd party operation. The role of 3rd party is to be trusted about privacy, about holding super-expensive items or information without stealing / revealing them and so on. Not to give judgements or criticism on the clients. These are reserved for when I wear the auditor hat. On an unrelated matter, Chribba can afford to skip these uncomfortable deals and focus on stuff like super capitals exchange etc. After all, the effort required at holding a ship for some minutes is not so heroic. The path to arrive there was. Unlike him I have to make my bones and learn instead. And "get there" in who knows how many years. Part of the process is meant to be hard / difficult / painful... so be it. Others avoid infamy by evading the chances, I dive into the chances and fight and eventually end up battered and "3% of hull left". But I savored the fight against myself and the obvious temptations that come when you are offered sums and positions and you politely decline. And see the others just not get it, why this time it did not work to buy someone out. This is my PvP in EvE, to savor the corruptors tears. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Sworn Absent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 10:27:00 - [255] Edited by: Sworn Absent on 05/11/2009 10:27:14 Ya'll got owned Originally Posted by karttoon View Post Quote: Yeah they are dumb. Yih e-mailed me begging for me to send an eve mail the auditors saying I was him. I got 500mil for sending the mail, and 50% of the donations (I had his API). Easiest ISK I've ever made. Edit: Seeing this alone made it worth it.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.05 10:32:00 - [256] Originally by: Sworn Absent Edited by: Sworn Absent on 05/11/2009 10:27:14 Ya'll got owned Originally Posted by karttoon View Post Quote: Yeah they are dumb. Yih e-mailed me begging for me to send an eve mail the auditors saying I was him. I got 500mil for sending the mail, and 50% of the donations (I had his API). Easiest ISK I've ever made. Edit: Seeing this alone made it worth it. A mothership kill mentioned on the boards wll get flamed by goons for being an irrelivant kill yet a small scam is being owned? For those with some knowledge of MD : Yih+ karttoon is still < general newbold.
Sworn Absent GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 10:58:00 - [257] Originally by: flakeys newbold. english only on these forums please
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 10:58:00 - [258] Quote: A mothership kill mentioned on the boards wll get flamed by goons for being an irrelivant kill yet a small scam is being owned? They have odd ways at judging things. /CAOD mode ON In this case they paid as much as Kartoon earned (prior donations) to their sworn enemy and call it "owning". Glad to be owned, can we do it again? I have some more freighter BPOs to buy. /CAOD mode OFF - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:06:00 - [259] Originally by: Charles Swann Originally by: Yih So thankyou, those who invested (most of which were 'for the lols') you helped a new player purchase 2 characters for her account, several plexes, and a 1.5billion ISK harbinger which was promptly lost within 2 hours of fitting ^-^ if you're karttoon, that sentence is one of the best attempts at social engineering I can recall seeing in EVE. If your story is true: 3.6 - 1.5 (Harbinger) = 2.1 = 2 characters + n * 0.3 (plexes), n >= 2 you make money multiply , welcome to MD Sorry, since I love people who can't read. Cardinal Biggles was only one of several investors. The total raised for myself, well...it was a lot (by my standards anyway, probably not by anyone elses) Karttoon, you're welcome t'was fun.
Josh Silver Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:07:00 - [260] Ah karttoon, never too busy to help out a newbie who's got the spirit

Koerner	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:13:00 - [261] God, I hate being right all the time. The reason this worked, where it otherwise would not have, is the same reason so many scams work. People will invest into anything that they WANT to be true. It's widely known how many people dislike Goonswarm, therefore Kartoon knew that the prospect of MD somehow being involved in its downfall was simply too enticiing. No matter how preposterous the concept. I said it at the beginning, then again somewhere in the middle, and now here again at the end because this whole thing defied common sense from the beginning: ANY GAINS TO BE HAD FROM HAVING EXTRA MONEY TO FUND A CORP THEFT, ARE GREATLY OUTWEIGHED BY MAKING THE SCHEME PUBLIC!! Use your heads! No legitimate thief/saboteur announces his intended target before making the attack!
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:24:00 - [262] Originally by: Koerner God, I hate being right all the time. Must be hard, dealing with that modesty all the time.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:26:00 - [263] Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 05/11/2009 11:28:04 I guess people should have thought harder about this
Koerner	Posted - 2009.11.05 11:29:00 - [264] Ha! A Goon director is going to lecture me about modesty. Let me know when you remove the plank from your own eye, then we'll talk about the spec in mine.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.05 12:08:00 - [265] Edited by: rubico1337 on 05/11/2009 12:10:41 i knew this was definitely a very large possibility. i just threw 300 mill in for the drama. either way it went people need to stop trying to waive their e-peens and stop posturing as if somehow one group of people got 'owned' by another. they did not. yih was a 3rd party and quite inventive in his ways. its just a damn game, get over it
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 12:14:00 - [266] Originally by: Liberty Eternal Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 05/11/2009 09:31:41 Originally by: corestwo Grats, want a cookie? No, how about a job instead - MD head of counter-intelligence? Always wanted to be James Bond Sure you can have that job but you're app to my corp is still rejected. Originally by: Koerner Ha! A Goon director is going to lecture me about modesty. Let me know when you remove the plank from your own eye, then we'll talk about the spec in mine. Why are people still saying this? The scam was by some rather brilliant goonswarm newbie, karttoon just posed as his "main" for what amounts to the most obvious ploy ever.
Ntrails	Posted - 2009.11.05 12:29:00 - [267] Originally by: Josh Silver Ah karttoon, never too busy to help out a newbie who's got the spirit Exactly. The ever illustrious leader.
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.05 12:48:00 - [268] Originally by: corestwo Sure you can have that job but you're app to my corp is still rejected. lol pretty please...
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 13:40:00 - [269] Originally by: corestwo Why are people still saying this? The scam was by some rather brilliant goonswarm newbie, karttoon just posed as his "main" for what amounts to the most obvious ploy ever. Except that my application to join GoonSwarm was rejected, apparently I'm a security risk lol.
Sir Fourhead Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 13:51:00 - [270] RMS, represent

cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:33:00 - [271] One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful.
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:36:00 - [272] Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. LOL, too little too late.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:01:00 - [273] Originally by: Liberty Eternal I guess people should have thought harder about this They did. Most figured it was a scam anyways, but was entertaining and threw the money in for part of the drama. Originally by: Koerner God, I hate being right all the time. The reason this worked, where it otherwise would not have, is the same reason so many scams work. People will invest into anything that they WANT to be true. It's widely known how many people dislike Goonswarm, therefore Kartoon knew that the prospect of MD somehow being involved in its downfall was simply too enticiing. No matter how preposterous the concept. I said it at the beginning, then again somewhere in the middle, and now here again at the end because this whole thing defied common sense from the beginning: ANY GAINS TO BE HAD FROM HAVING EXTRA MONEY TO FUND A CORP THEFT, ARE GREATLY OUTWEIGHED BY MAKING THE SCHEME PUBLIC!! Use your heads! No legitimate thief/saboteur announces his intended target before making the attack! And others have said it, you seem not to get it. People invested in this because (a) if it was true, it'd be a doosey and a major part of Eve history, (b) if it wasn't true, the scam was proving to be quite entertaining. It is still a game. Originally by: Roguehalo "Maybe we should get Elvis in on this as an adviser" The above quote was my only contribution to this thread. I really Think VV and Cosmoray, with the benefit of hindsight ofc, should re-evaluate their part in this. It would probably have been better to decline, as Chribba did, to get involved . Their involvement gave this risible scheme a measure of credence it never deserved. I think VV held up just fine. She was up front from the start that this was probably a scam and that she was only able to confirm that Yih could mail her from a Goon Director in a position that he claimed. She was never dishonest in this thread, that I could see. Anyways, my two cents on that one. I was kind of lol'ing myself that people were still questioning it's validity after the first two threads. It was a good read, though.
karttoon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:11:00 - [274] Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME!
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:14:00 - [275] ill rate this along the armoured c scam. though it should have be rated lower tbh. considering the time investment; you didnt make that much. 1/10 wouldnt see again. if you lost money in this you are ******ed!
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.05 15:26:00 - [276] Originally by: karttoon Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME! I see the point here - this was a proposal for an offensive action directly hostile to goonswarm, it was not a neutral investment in, say, industry. Can it really be classed as a scam to take money from people who are actively planning to harm you?
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:11:00 - [277] Originally by: Liberty Eternal I see the point here - this was a proposal for an offensive action directly hostile to goonswarm, it was not a neutral investment in, say, industry. Can it really be classed as a scam to take money from people who are actively planning to harm you? Reality called and wants you to get in touch with it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 16:25:00 - [278] Quote: Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME! I found more entertraining, in roleplay and downright more interesting the fake Kartoon than the real one. You recite a 2006 part. It's boring now. Go away. Or make a lottery so it's boring but with a Market Discussion topic. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:36:00 - [279] Originally by: Tesal Also, no Goon can talk about "integrity". That is the entire point of being a Goon, that they lack integrity. We're just playing a different game than you. Originally by: cosmoray With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. I need to look back somewhere, but when ever I point out that the MD forum people have this mindset towards taking one goons money to pay off anothers debt, people swear up down and sideways that that would never happen.
Venal Inamorata	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:49:00 - [280] So I'm guessing the 5B bribe to reveal the main was all part of the ploy? Working off the basis that Cosmoray would remain honourable? Pretty good rep for Cosmoray there. Though in hindsight perhaps he should've double-bluffed the briber & this would have been over that little bit sooner :-)

Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:34:00 - [281] I said this on Page 1 of this thread, and I'll quote it now. Originally by: Frenden Dax Throw in some glitz, fake some sincerity, point out how you're different from a few other thieves, and people will throw money at you. And people did throw some money, only to be unsurprisingly scammed. If you invested, you were stupid. Or naive, which amounts to the same thing. I'm not surprised that Flakeys invested since he'll chuck money at just about anyone, but cosmo should have known better. Originally by: Karanth Or, in other words, random people can't usurp rights from government because they are insane/bitter/vengeful/made of potato salad.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:49:00 - [282] Originally by: Yih For those who have read this far, but have not seen all the threads, they are as follows, and shall be kept here for posterity For posterity? Get a grip son, even I have the kind of isk you got out of this. Move along now.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 18:55:00 - [283] Originally by: Venal Inamorata Pretty good rep for Cosmoray there. Until he gave the green light to scam all goons.
penifSMASH GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:00:00 - [284] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: Hey man, I have an Avatar to sell. I have a buyer and would like you use you as a trusted thirahahahahahahaha Boooooooo! Goons have no honour to allow themselves to participate in the scamming of people who wish to invest in the destruction of their alliance! FOR SHAME! I found more entertraining, in roleplay and downright more interesting the fake Kartoon than the real one. You recite a 2006 part. It's boring now. Go away. Or make a lottery so it's boring but with a Market Discussion topic. You post as if your opinion matters
Venal Inamorata	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:35:00 - [285] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Venal Inamorata Pretty good rep for Cosmoray there. Until he gave the green light to scam all goons. I didn't say he didn't lose any rep afterwards :-) That particular generalisation was a little off and I suspect/hope made in anger.
Hans Jeschonnek	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:41:00 - [286] Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. Cosmoray didn't have any rep to begin with, as he is a known for not keeping his word, and easy to make excuses as to why. If he really did invest he's stupid anyway, and could easily be fooled during an audit.
Research Princess	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:44:00 - [287] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. Cosmoray didn't have any rep to begin with, as he is a known for not keeping his word, and easy to make excuses as to why. If he really did invest he's stupid anyway, and could easily be fooled during an audit. I couldn't have said it better myself.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:54:00 - [288] Originally by: Tesal Also, no Goon can talk about "integrity". That is the entire point of being a Goon, that they lack integrity. I direct you to our internal loans forum where there is at least a 95% return rate or me and other goon businessmen who have taken out massive, multi-billion isk loans or bonds (50b in my case) with absolutely no security at all and still not run off with it. Then come back and say that Goons "lack integrity". Its like Kalrand said, we're just playing a different game than you. Originally by: cosmoray One interesting aspect comes up. With Goonswarm again re-affirming members are free to SCAM any non-members (as endorsed by Karttoon) or that scamming in general is fine, that gives anyone probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members. The old rule, SCAM a SCAMMER is not wrong. Finally for those who hadn't seen this (we haven't had any in a while), never invest in a Goon offering. We used to get a few, only Sophie was successful. This is Eve, buddy. Everyone already had "probable free reign to SCAM any Goon members", and frankly, scam anyone else. Its a part of life here. The fact that you have ~risen above it all~ doesn't really change that.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:09:00 - [289] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. They got scammed. Yup. Now who will you replace them with? You? You think this is a positive outcome? [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:11:00 - [290] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. It should be noted that VV's alliance is the historical enemy of Goonswarm. But beyond that, I actually didn't see much wrong with what they reported, until the entire thing unwound. VV appears to have been very careful in choosing his words. But the stupid thing is that if Karttoon wanted to haul all our stuff away and disband us, he could. The fact that he's telling you that his motivation was to make ISK, should have been a pretty big red flag to the auditor/third party/whoever that the whole thing was garbage. Some sub level spy-director would have been far more plausible. Originally by: corestwo I direct you to our internal loans forum where there is at least a 95% return rate or me and other goon businessmen who have taken out massive, multi-billion isk loans or bonds (50b in my case) with absolutely no security at all and still not run off with it. Then come back and say that Goons "lack integrity". Its like Kalrand said, we're just playing a different game than you. ~11 billion here outstanding. ~5 billion in paid off loans and bonds. No collateral or audit, but I do drop pages and pages of :words: on people every few weeks to keep people up to date. The only reason I would come to the MD board now for funds would be if I wanted to refinance to a lower interest rate. Most of my debt is 7.5% per month. But I doubt it would be worth the hassle.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:30:00 - [291] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/11/2009 20:32:27 Quote: You post as if your opinion matters Not a lot, but more than yours for sure. Quote: Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. I know reading is hard, but you could always ask for help. I was paid to state if a guy could control a powerful GS director. P E R I O D. All the rest comes straight up off your anus. Since the supposed powerful GS director in the end revealed to actually be a powerful GS director, I did my job. I did not get paid to support or not support the dude. Any ASSumption off yours is just yours truly. Are you one of those that when they see an attorney working for a suspect possible criminal, call the attorney criminal? Quote: or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' I allow myself to be payed also to audit people. In both case I bring a statement of feasibility. You can be an idiot and take it as it's an advertisement or you can stick to understand it's a statement about something being possible. I am not going to do your homeworks nor I have the ability or presumption to erect myself as a judge. I leave it to the Investors. Their money. Their brain. Quote: They got scammed. Yup. Now who will you replace them with? You? I did not get scammed. I got correctly paid the stated fee. I gave out the expected (approved in game by Yih) statement, including objecting to Yih that I could not state he was the director but just able to control a director. Yih was fine with that. That got posted. That has been the end of my assignment. Quote: It should be noted that VV's alliance is the historical enemy of Goonswarm Beyond the luls (being paid by GS with my tag) I did not consider the alliances involved a bit. This is what some flamers don't get. Being new-ish to the game I don't have the prejudices pro or against anyone. I don't know GS, I don't know BoB (that my corp recently decided to join) for me both are fat unknowns. I happen to have invested in a GS bond. Because I am neutral, for real. And money is where the mouth is. All those reading Goonswarm and immediately calling the forum police for the obvious scam don't see the meaning of having to be neutral for a job, and not force GS = scam at all the costs, however the "tradition" is stacked. In fact GS still pay me bond interests, precise like a Swiss clock. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:51:00 - [292] "able to control a director" What exactly does that mean and what evidence were you given? The only evidence acceptable to me would have been an undoctored login screenshot showing Yih and Karttoon on the same account. Anything else would have been so open to deception(as has proved the case) as to be totally meaningless.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:51:00 - [293] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: It should be noted that VV's alliance is the historical enemy of Goonswarm Beyond the luls (being paid by GS with my tag) I did not consider the alliances involved a bit. This is what some flamers don't get. Being new-ish to the game I don't have the prejudices pro or against anyone. I don't know GS, I don't know BoB (that my corp recently decided to join) for me both are fat unknowns. I didn't mean for it to come out that way. I meant it as a comparison as to why Chribba couldn't be a part of this, and you could. You were in a unique position. Oh, and despite your newness, you are still the bad guy to us.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:57:00 - [294] Originally by: Roguehalo "able to control a director" What exactly does that mean and what evidence were you given? The only evidence acceptable to me would have been an undoctored login screenshot showing Yih and Karttoon on the same account. Anything else would have been so open to deception(as has proved the case) as to be totally meaningless. .....which would be a EULA violation to demand that.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:11:00 - [295] Quote: "able to control a director" What exactly does that mean and what evidence were you given? It means that if by example I asked Yih to contact / mail me thru that character and say "Hi, Yih here", he could. And I think Cosmo too has got the same text. Not having the API (repeatedly asked and never given - and also said so on the forums) means that any further proof of identity is impossible. A login screenshot off a possible scammer is just a good proof he's good with Photoshop and passible of CCP petition. Hence the restriction to "can control". - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Khava Barayev	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:14:00 - [296] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I was paid to state if a guy could control a powerful GS director. P E R I O D. All the rest comes straight up off your anus. Are you one of those that when they see an attorney working for a suspect possible criminal, call the attorney criminal? I allow myself to be payed also to audit people. You're an idiot. You really have no clue what an audit is, do you? Anyone who believes for a second that an investment audit would even work in EVE is terminally ****ed. And yes, an auditor who gives out a letter of recommendation to a crap investment is held accountable for it, can be sued, and will likely lose their professional designation. Its called professional negligence you *****. Maybe you should read up on GAAS if you want to roleplay an internet spaceship auditor. Here's a protip to help your make believe profession along: look up an assertion of completion, what a recommendation is, and due diligence in cases of fraud. Bigger tip: no auditor would recommend any investment in EVE.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:23:00 - [297] Edited by: Kalrand on 05/11/2009 21:22:47 Originally by: Khava Barayev You're an idiot. You really have no clue what an audit is, do you? Anyone who believes for a second that an investment audit would even work in EVE is terminally ******ed. You even stated that you were working for Yih rather than working for the investors. You know nothing of what an audit is. And yes, an auditor who gives out a letter of recommendation to a crap investment is held accountable for it, can be sued, and will likely lose their professional designation. Its called professional negligence you putz. Maybe you should read up on GAAS if you want to roleplay an internet spaceship auditor. Here's a protip to help your make believe profession along: look up an assertion of completion, what a recommendation is, and due diligence in cases of fraud. Bigger tip: no auditor would recommend any investment in EVE. Edit: hahaha, CCP has censored yiddish insults Who are you?
xxx0w0xxx	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:33:00 - [298] Originally by: Kalrand Who are you? An anonymous entity whose identity can change with a few clicks of butan, just like anyone else on this board. Which is exactly why audits don't work.
Vivinc Laloo	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:34:00 - [299] I was hoping this whole scam was designed to target vv. He's been an annoying little geek of the worst kind so that might have gotten some bored goon's attention.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:43:00 - [300] Originally by: Hans Jeschonnek Edited by: Hans Jeschonnek on 05/11/2009 19:42:45 Looking at this thread, VV is either a complete idiot for not recognizing this obvious scam and refusing to be involved, or is corrupt in allowing himself to be payed to help convince people to invest, irregardless of what you see your 'scope' as. Either way, I wouldn't personally use his services in the future after this. Cosmoray didn't have any rep to begin with, as he is a known for not keeping his word, and easy to make excuses as to why. If he really did invest he's stupid anyway, and could easily be fooled during an audit. Please post links where I haven't kept my word? Yes I did invest and lost 600M. I have never done an audit. Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers.

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:44:00 - [301] Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer?
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:46:00 - [302] Edited by: Tesal on 05/11/2009 21:46:39 VV, suck it up, this was a scam. If you think about it, even if it succeeded, it was still a scam. You may have lived up to your word, and your contract, but the operation itself was dishonest in every respect. The part of the scam that affects you is that you were used as a tool to further the scam. That is how you were scammed as well, because this damages you. So if you follow this chain of reasoning, you were scammed because your most valuable asset, your reputation, was damaged. The moral of the story here, is that you should never lay your name on the line for a Goon. That is a mistake. As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. I don't think Goons are in much of a position to talk about morals, ethics, truth or lies, since they freely admit they lie, cheat and steal whenever possible. The most you can say about VV and Cosmo is that they made an unwise decision and were tricked. There is no equivalency between what Goons do and Cosmo and VV. I outright reject that assertion. As such I also reject the idea that they are necessarily damaged beyond repair, but it is no doubt a blow. I also believe that the hurt being put on them was planned as there are planted ideas in the original IPO about IT spies. So I consider this a strike at Goon enemies, with Cosmo and especially VV on the list, with the goal of creating distrust. In that respect this scam had 2 goals probably, getting isk and hurting people. edit Originally by:* Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer? You are participating in a scam right now. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:49:00 - [303] My rep will survive for the businesses I want to be in. If my general reputation takes a big hit, I am sure someone can jump into my place and take the business.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:52:00 - [304] Originally by: cosmoray My rep will survive for the businesses I want to be in. If my general reputation takes a big hit, I am sure someone can jump into my place and take the business. You will take a hit, but I doubt a big one. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:52:00 - [305] Originally by: Tesal Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer? You are participating in a scam right now. I take it you didn't read any of my comments in this thread.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:59:00 - [306] Originally by: Tesal As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. This deserved it's own reply. Go hit up eve-search and find the post where I listed all of my alts. Take off "Sally Bestonge" (not mine anymore) and then track more than my main. Also, I'm now Karttoon? Seriously?
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:02:00 - [307] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tesal Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. Do you consider me a scammer? You are participating in a scam right now. I take it you didn't read any of my comments in this thread. I have been following this thread since it started over a week or so. I don't recall every comment you made verbatim. My bias is to assume you are a liar no matter what you say, because you are a Goon and have Ponzi in your corp name. It is a fairly well placed assumption, I believe, that you are pretty much into disinformation and propaganda rather that bringing forward a legitimate point or argument. As such anything you say is suspect, even the truth. Therefore, what you say is irrelevant in terms of testimony of any sort. You cannot be trusted to give a straight fact. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
TsX213	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:13:00 - [308] This is the best GS scam yet, good luck scam for 600bil.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:23:00 - [309] Quote: You're an idiot. You really have no clue what an audit is, do you? Anyone who believes for a second that an investment audit would even work in EVE is terminally ****ed. This is a game in case you did not notice and it does not even follow RL ways of doing. Find me the auditor IRL that is paid by those he has to discover their flaws (like in EvE) instead of being paid by the investors. Quote: You even stated that you were working for Yih rather than working for the investors. You know nothing of what an audit is. In fact that was not an audit (as I wrote like 2-3 times already? But I also said reading is not your forte after all...). A guy paid me to check if one thing was true and make a statement about my findings. The end. Quote: Bigger tip: no auditor would recommend any investment in EVE. Cool, I suppose at this point we can close MD and go all home. Quote: You may have lived up to your word, and your contract, but the operation itself was dishonest in every respect. Sure, and after this, there will be audits fooled, smart scammers hiding their intentions and counterfeiting the API. There have been (aka Glas Mir) those who just disappeared. You know, sitting every day with scammers and impostors can easily involve me in a scam plan of theirs. So what? I would show they had the in game skills to produce what they claimed, they had a NAV compatible with their request. Yet "their operation was dishonest in every respect". Choose one: - have a guy waste his days in a ** poor ROI meta-profession to at least find out that the guys could do what they claim. - not have the guy and believe in what they claim. I am fine with both. I am not going to lose a penny in either way. Quote: As such I also reject the idea that they are necessarily damaged beyond repair, but it is no doubt a blow I fail to see where I should be damaged. It's a precious opportunity to learn what opposition and methodology can be used in these tasks. Now, you and others could decide that dealing with Goons is so bad, to the point to have to refuse it. Is it fair? Do you think that 6000 or so Goons are all delinquents? I am glad you are not a RL judge. Even if it stinks, everyone of them (or BoB or ATLAS you name it) has the right to get a chance. Following your thoughts, LadyOfWrath would be a pariah, CAIDS would have been banned. You'd censor the Goonswarm made Evemon, EvEMap and so on? Quote: I also believe that the hurt being put on them was planned as there are planted ideas in the original IPO about IT spies. So I consider this a strike at Goon enemies, with Cosmo and especially VV on the list, with the goal of creating distrust. In that respect this scam had 2 goals probably, getting isk and hurting people This scam will have one result: deface the legit GS investors and investees here. They were here before I even joined the game. To think of such a massive move aimed at a 2009 character or a freshly formed alliance that atm is irrelevant is quite stretching. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:28:00 - [310] The fact that this is continuing to provide popcorn commentary even after the fact, is great. So Kalrand, where's my invite huh?

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:31:00 - [311] Originally by: Yih The fact that this is continuing to provide popcorn commentary even after the fact, is great. So Kalrand, where's my invite huh? Invite to what?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:34:00 - [312] Originally by: Yih The fact that this is continuing to provide popcorn commentary even after the fact, is great. So Kalrand, where's my invite huh? I am no GS expert, but don't they ask 500M to every random noob when they are not to accept them? It's possible you have been used. And the popcorns you hear, were actually farts. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:37:00 - [313] lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :)
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:41:00 - [314] Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp?
Khava Barayev	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:46:00 - [315] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha This is a game in case you did not notice and it does not even follow RL ways of doing. Find me the auditor IRL that is paid by those he has to discover their flaws (like in EvE) instead of being paid by the investors. So you're saying that you don't follow tried and trusted methods of audits, or that you lack knowledge of actual practices? Would you trust someone with absolutely no talent at finances to make isk by playing the market? I'm not sure how this helps your case at all. And it doesn't change the fact that you didn't, in plain language, give a negative recommendation based on a lack of information. Again, look up what you're trying to do with whatever pretend roleplaying thing you've dug yourself into. Most audit firms are commissioned by stakeholders and paid for by the organization they're looking into. You want a bank loan, then typically you will pay for the audit firm, but they are still working for the bank. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha In fact that was not an audit (as I wrote like 2-3 times already? But I also said reading is not your forte after all...). A guy paid me to check if one thing was true and make a statement about my findings. The end. No, you didn't also say I have no reading comprehension. You just pulled it out of your ass now. This is the first time we've met. How you doin'? You're really are an idiot. Yup, you were paid and made a BS statement to look "neutral" when every red flag should have been raised. I guess I'm crazy for thinking you should have flat out stated you wouldn't recommend this investment. You suck at damage control. So get off your high horse and admit you screwed up rather than defend that you did you job, its called taking responsibility. Unless you don't want to be known for that. I shouldn't expect much more from your failure of an alliance though. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Cool, I suppose at this point we can close MD and go all home. Quote: With you giving recommendations, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Thankfully most of the people who use this board aren't as dim witted as the so called professionals.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:50:00 - [316] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp? Because, posting with that corp name behind me sounds like it would be fun :)
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.05 22:53:00 - [317] Edited by: Kalrand on 05/11/2009 22:55:57 Originally by: Yih Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp? Because, posting with that corp name behind me sounds like it would be fun :) Soon the CEO will be "Bernie Ebbers". For a corp for yourself. Is "Old Colony Foreign Exchange Company" still available? Or "Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC"?
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:06:00 - [318] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 05/11/2009 23:06:40 Originally by: Khava Barayev stuff What's so difficult to understand? VV gets commissioned to verify a single fact. She does this to the best of her abilities and provides the necessary caveats (cannot determine if Yih is Karttoon or if Yih can just make Karttoon do stuff). She has no obligation whatsoever, to comment on any "red flags" outside the direct scope of her assignment. PS: whining about VV not pointing out the "lack of information" makes you look somewhat ... challenged - the limited info was plain obvious to any sensible person reading Yih's threads, was commented on numerous times by different known figures from MD and if you could be bothered to actually read before posting, you would know that VV has already responded to every single objection raised within the last few pages of this thread in Yih's second investment thread - one month ago, before any investments were actually taking place. Now, please stfu and leave. Thanks. " Credit is the economic judgement on the morality of a man. "
Khava Barayev	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:21:00 - [319] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 05/11/2009 23:06:40 What's so difficult to understand? VV gets commissioned to verify a single fact. She does this to the best of her abilities and provides the necessary caveats (cannot determine if Yih is Karttoon or if Yih can just make Karttoon do stuff). She has no obligation whatsoever, to comment on any "red flags" outside the direct scope of her assignment. PS: whining about VV not pointing out the "lack of information" makes you look somewhat ... challenged - the limited info was plain obvious to any sensible person reading Yih's threads, was commented on numerous times by different known figures from MD and if you could be bothered to actually read before posting, you would know that VV has already responded to every single objection raised within the last few pages of this thread in Yih's second investment thread - one month ago, before any investments were actually taking place. Now, please stfu and leave. Thanks. I haven't stated that anything is difficult to understand. I've made it pretty clear. VV is an idiot. He stated absolutely nothing and boasts himself an imaginary auditor to butter up for an eventual scam. Yes, you've stated the same thing I have - the average forum user can see through an obvious scam and the auditors blindly go along with it, one of them even investing. You expect what, praise to be handed out to them for a job well done?
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.11.05 23:52:00 - [320] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tesal As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. This deserved it's own reply. Go hit up eve-search and find the post where I listed all of my alts. Take off "Sally Bestonge" (not mine anymore) and then track more than my main. Also, I'm now Karttoon? Seriously? Secretly all goons are Karttoon. Biggest 1-man alliance EVER.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:43:00 - [321] Quote: So you're saying that you don't follow tried and trusted methods of audits The methods I follow are quite visible in the numerous audits I posted. Quote: And it doesn't change the fact that you didn't, in plain language, give a negative recommendation based on a lack of information I did not lack of information. I had all the required information for the job: determine that a guy claims were true. They were true, and now that the whole thing is public, it shows. Have it been an audit I'd have placed the usual "considerations" and "conclusions", where the risk of scam would have been listed as the top probability of default. But it was not. Quote: No, you didn't also say I have no reading comprehension. You just pulled it out of your ass now. This is the first time we've met. How you doin'? You're really are an idiot I am sure with your politeness you'll have a bright future on the forums. You sound so butt hurt it's not even real. And rigtheous too. You know, alts with a posting story of a grand 1 thread (this) give inner strengths. Quote: With you giving recommendations, that wouldn't be a bad idea. Thankfully most of the people who use this board aren't as dim witted as the so called professionals Never claimed to be a professional. I am a drum rolls player of a game. I am ready to learn off your grand lessons on how it's done though. See you at your next audit! EvE needs YOU! - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.06 01:41:00 - [322] Yih - grats on the fun thread. Did my 300 actually go through? My connection went down at almost the same time I tried to make the payment and I'd had a few that nightso don't remember the exact sequence of events. If so, is there any chance you could mail me the lottery mail that went out to the previous investors? That's what I was really paying to see and I would still be quite interested to see whether it was at all plausible or not. Whilst the whole operation can clearly be called a scam, I'm not sure whether those who invested for the lols can actually be said to have been scammed. I didn't expect any return on this and can't say I'm at all annoyed by the end result (as opposed to raw yard's scamming - his alt took me for ten mil and I am still quite ****ed off about that one). Flakeys certainly just seemed to be buying an expensive theatre ticket and my own 'investment' had similar motivations. I would say you actually worked quite hard for your money and provided good entertainment in return. The fact that most of the investors went in for the fun rather than the promised return or the destruction of GS also raises another interesting point. Whilst the goons like to distinguish themselves from the masses who take internet life seriously, Yih's success here was, in fact, largely derived from the fact that most of the investors did not take the game or their isk too seriously at all. Earlier in the thread a goon said that they are playing a different game from the rest of us. I don't think this is entirely true. Nobody seems too upset about the way this has turned out. indeed, the level of annoyance generated here seems to be considerably less than that generated within GS itself, for some goons at least, by suas' titan theft. I would suggest that the us and them distinction propagated by the goons is rather less well grounded than gs mythography would like it to be. Glad to hear yih will be sticking around. You'll add some much needed colour to this forum.
Tiberizzle	Posted - 2009.11.06 02:14:00 - [323] Quote: VV is an idiot. Quoted for truth, MD would be more enjoyable to read with 100% less VV autofellatio. Also, this scam is a great example of why auditing, auditors, and those that put any faith in them are ****ing stupid. The process of auditing might have served a point briefly in its early existance, but now that auditing is ubiquitous scams are conceived with the assumption that they must pass an audit. In fact audits are worse than pointless, as the process lends "credibility" to schemes that would otherwise fail to pass a basic sanity check.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 02:25:00 - [324] Originally by: Tiberizzle In fact audits are worse than pointless, as the process lends "credibility" to schemes that would otherwise fail to pass a basic sanity check. "I, one of the very people who is skimming from the massive pile of Goon moon gold, am willing to destroy this lucrative, ego-stroking arrangement, all in exchange for a tiny pile of isk. Can you help?" You sir, got the joke that we goons got on the first page of the thread.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.06 05:31:00 - [325] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tesal As for the words coming from Kalrand, for all you know, you are talking to a Karttoon alt. He is here to troll you, I believe that much for sure. He doesn't log on much that I can see, maybe I just miss it. This deserved it's own reply. Go hit up eve-search and find the post where I listed all of my alts. Take off "Sally Bestonge" (not mine anymore) and then track more than my main. Also, I'm now Karttoon? Seriously? Secretly all goons are Karttoon. Biggest 1-man alliance EVER. Meh. Some people here lacking basic reading comprehension. Continue trolling. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Katiana Swan	Posted - 2009.11.06 05:53:00 - [326] I have no idea why you people are trying to justify things to the trolls. It's obvious a lot of goons have shown up (alts and non-alts) to stir the waters and some of you (VV, pinkerton etc) are giving them the perfect opportunity to do so. The best thing you can do is to not respond to them.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:17:00 - [327] Originally by: cosmoray Rule on MD has always been that scammers are fair game, and it has always been my policy that there no rules with scammers. While your policy has been clear in the past, cosmoray (and I write without now disclosing whether I agree with your position), I don't think it's accurate to say that it is widely accepted as a general rule. Certainly your stance provoked substantial debate in the past and did not enjoy universal support. á á
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:33:00 - [328] scamming a scammer is still scamming. while i have no doubt that cosmo will never scam the public or his investors, he has crossed over to the darkside. and will be forever tainted!
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:46:00 - [329] Originally by: Ji Sama scamming a scammer is still scamming. while i have no doubt that cosmo will never scam the public or his investors, he has crossed over to the darkside. and will be forever tainted! No, there is still good in him. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:48:00 - [330] I have ambitions to become a trusted 3rd party eventually so the debate over Cosmoray/VVs involvement interests me. As a trusted 3rd party I would reserve the right to decline any job offered me. When would I exercise that right? Well if I thought that my services were being used in the possible promotion of or furtherance of a scam I would decline. We are are obviously in a grey area here which is why I said in a previous post that Cosmoray/VV maybe should re-evaluate their involvement. I still feel that Cosmoray/VV should have recognised that there was a high possibility that Yih was a scammer and should have declined the job. A/ Yih used them B/ They showed poor judgement Chribba exercised excellent judgement in declining to be involved which presumably is why he's Eves' number 1 trusted 3rd party.

Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.06 08:32:00 - [331] Originally by: cosmoray My rep will survive for the businesses I want to be in. If my general reputation takes a big hit, I am sure someone can jump into my place and take the business. "We must look for consistency. Where there is a want of it we must suspect deception." "If I were assured of your eventual destruction I would, in the interests of the public, cheerfully accept my own." "I am not the law, but I represent justice so far as my feeble powers go." In a lawless world like EVE, I consider Cosmo did the right thing. If there is no justice, nor law, the only weapons we have to impose rightness we must use. I believe the only hit your rep will take will be among scammers who will not want to use your services.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.11.06 08:54:00 - [332] Wow, people actually invested in this?
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.06 08:57:00 - [333] Originally by: Ji Sama scamming a scammer is still scamming. while i have no doubt that cosmo will never scam the public or his investors, he has crossed over to the darkside. and will be forever tainted! Ji Sama, I still can't believe I sent you back that 1 bil ISK :D
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.11.06 08:59:00 - [334] I'm just surprised the mere fact someone wanting money claiming to be from Goonswarm for a complete intangiable didn't raise red flags in the first place. Epic fail guys.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:12:00 - [335] Originally by: Yih Originally by: Ji Sama scamming a scammer is still scamming. while i have no doubt that cosmo will never scam the public or his investors, he has crossed over to the darkside. and will be forever tainted! Ji Sama, I still can't believe I sent you back that 1 bil ISK :D Still mad at me about that?
Alice Celadon	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:18:00 - [336] Originally by: Roguehalo I have ambitions to become a trusted 3rd party eventually so the debate over Cosmoray/VVs involvement interests me. As a trusted 3rd party I would reserve the right to decline any job offered me. When would I exercise that right? Well if I thought that my services were being used in the possible promotion of or furtherance of a scam I would decline. We are are obviously in a grey area here which is why I said in a previous post that Cosmoray/VV maybe should re-evaluate their involvement. I still feel that Cosmoray/VV should have recognised that there was a high possibility that Yih was a scammer and should have declined the job. A/ Yih used them B/ They showed poor judgement Chribba exercised excellent judgement in declining to be involved which presumably is why he's Eves' number 1 trusted 3rd party. ... As someone who's a "neutral third party" IRL, let me give you some advice: before accepting any job, always ask "What tangible action will I be taking that will ADD VALUE to this transaction?" If you don't have an immediate, very concrete answer, then you are most likely being used by someone in the transaction. Chribba sets up POSes and sets terms and locations and then physically transfers supercaps, corps, alliances, etc. Chribba has also been known to hold collateral. I've yet to see Chribba pledge himself to something intangible...that is why he's the most sought-after 3rd party. Notice also that even before things turned sour, both VV and cosmo were scrambling to define their role in the scheme. Their statements, restatements, and clarifications made only one thing apparent: they hadn't been tasked with doing very much of anything. Listen: in organizational schemes, the ill-defined, reasonably compensated, effortless job actually has a name: "scapegoat". When the **** has hit the fan in my professional life, I've always been able to say, "The goods were at X station at Y time." or "The contract was drafted as per Mr. X's terms and delivered to client Y at 10am sharp..." You see? A clearly defined role raises only a few, direct questions.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:32:00 - [337] Originally by: Alice Celadon As someone who's a "neutral third party" IRL, let me give you some advice: before accepting any job, always ask "What tangible action will I be taking that will ADD VALUE to this transaction?" If you don't have an immediate, very concrete answer, then you are most likely being used by someone in the transaction. Chribba sets up POSes and sets terms and locations and then physically transfers supercaps, corps, alliances, etc. Chribba has also been known to hold collateral. I've yet to see Chribba pledge himself to something intangible...that is why he's the most sought-after 3rd party. Notice also that even before things turned sour, both VV and cosmo were scrambling to define their role in the scheme. Their statements, restatements, and clarifications made only one thing apparent: they hadn't been tasked with doing very much of anything. Listen: in organizational schemes, the ill-defined, reasonably compensated, effortless job actually has a name: "scapegoat". When the **** has hit the fan in my professional life, I've always been able to say, "The goods were at X station at Y time." or "The contract was drafted as per Mr. X's terms and delivered to client Y at 10am sharp..." You see? A clearly defined role raises only a few, direct questions. This is the best post of this whole fail-cascade. Very well-written and right to the point. I think it raises an interesting point.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:36:00 - [338] Quote: I still feel that Cosmoray/VV should have recognised that there was a high possibility that Yih was a scammer and should have declined the job There is always an high possibility that those I deal with are scammers. Should I start refusing auditing every uncollateralized trader, every new-ish unknown character and so on? Because Yih could prove he had sensible funding (and in fact I think there's "something more" than a total new player behind him / her) and also his / her claims. Meanwhile all those others I have actually to "judge" for feasibility and risk evaluation, tend to lack of capital and have to prove everything. So what's more grey: - to not be called to judge someone with funds and claiming an immediately verifiable truth (Yih) - to be called to judge someone without funds and claiming good faith statements (the new proponents)? It's a sea of mud, Roguehalo, and to stay afloat above it is harder than it looks. Now, a curiosity. What if Yih tag was off ATLAS or BoB instead of GS? Would everything go exactly the same, and the same things posted? Is prejudice affecting you like it's affecting the others? Because the others are excusable as they are not "in the job". But if you are prejudiced or even somewhat biased, you failed before even starting to be a 3rd party. I am not joking or flaming you. Remember, once you took F90 (and not only) path of "deciding for the good", you are maybe 3rd party. But not trusted any more for anything beyond some silly ship exchange. Oh wait, for some silly below a certain value ship exchange, as we have had the example. Quote: Chribba exercised excellent judgement in declining to be involved which presumably is why he's Eves' number 1 trusted 3rd party Chribba has already "arrived" and he can perform "prestige management", which is not even 100% related to 3rd party trust, but amplifies it. The others are still swimming in the dung - beginning with me - and cannot afford to refuse to travel in anything less than a Ferrari. If you pursue this "path" you'll see by yourself. Work is not going to rain upon you, nor experience. You'll have to start low and earn your way up. This is why this world is abundant of judges, criticists and ambulance chasers, and got so little doers. Random mention: being auditor is another "do" job. Surprise, none wants to do it, others much less pay for it. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:44:00 - [339] Quote: This post and followings. I find amusing VV's own words Quote: someone would be able and look back at this thread and be striken by some posts In fact, the major flames were that the guy could never ever be able to do what he claimed. Now, reread the whole bunch knowing the Karttoon's powers and you'll be striken by some posts. Quote: It's not because of the possible risk of scam, but because individually funding this, have more to surely lose than to maybe gain out of this And it's true. Spreading the risk was the way to go, something Bad Bobby mastered in his IPO. That not randomly got mentioned as example for Yih to learn. Quote: G.N. cannot be called in cause, EVER. This alt gave out his name so if he scams he's going to have REAL trouble instead At the time I had no objective proof of this being a scam: the guy proved to have good capital to give before anything started (unlike General NB) and to be able to cover his identity claims. Which incidentally were more than what my task was all about. With no objective proof I am sorry I am not going to squawk foul around. Thinking with the knowledge of when everything unfolded is always so easy. Quote: Can you confirm that Yih had full control over karttoon? As full control as the EULA lets people to check. I am not going to demand log in credentials and similar, because that would be forbidden and rightfully punished by CCP. Quote: Please disclose it now. "It is, of course, a trifle, but there is nothing so important as trifles." Notice the lack of "Sadly this is information I cannot disclose now". Because this kind of inverviewed material is not going to be slammed in public, ever, nor I kept logged tracks of it (because is not going to be published ever). Choose another consultant that accepts to forfeit its clients privacy and not me. Quote: If you don't have an immediate, very concrete answer, then you are most likely being used by someone in the transaction. You see? A clearly defined role raises only a few, direct questions Clearly defined role: "I need you to find that my identity claim is ok and post the results". - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.06 10:52:00 - [340] "As full control as the EULA lets people to check. I am not going to demand log in credentials and similar, because that would be forbidden and rightfully punished by CCP." A screenshot of an account login page is probably against the Eula but an account login page doesn't tell us anything anyway. I doubt that a screenshot of the character login page is against the eula and in fact I provided such a screenshot in my very 1st bond offer. When I mentioned account login I ofc meant the character login page. A screenshot of that would have proved that Yih and Karttoon were either from the same account or 2 different accounts.

Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.06 11:47:00 - [341] Edited by: Krathos Morpheus on 06/11/2009 11:49:00 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: G.N. asked for money. Not unlike this Yih alt here. G.N. used an alt with no required skills. Not unlike this alt. G.N. did not want to make his main public. Not unlike this alt. G.N. never proved to even have a main. This alt proved to me and Cosmoray at least to be in control (can't tell if he IS really him) of a GS director. G.N. cannot be called in cause, EVER. This alt gave out his name so if he scams he's going to have REAL trouble instead At the time I had no objective proof of this being a scam: the guy proved to have good capital to give before anything started (unlike General NB) and to be able to cover his identity claims. Which incidentally were more than what my task was all about. With no objective proof I am sorry I am not going to squawk foul around. Thinking with the knowledge of when everything unfolded is always so easy. Of course it is easier to see it now. I did thought before everything unfolded and I pointed the flaws as well before. It is not about proving it being a scam, it is about the things you said as true that you had no way to check. If you have no proof you shut the thing up, you don't state the contrary. Yih asked for money. You didn't checked the skills of Yih, I believe he has no skills as well. I already said that whathever main in GS he had, it was useless to make it public in case of scam. Now tell me about the REAL trouble he is going to face. Quote: In fact, the major flames were that the guy could never ever be able to do what he claimed. Now, reread the whole bunch knowing the Karttoon's powers and you'll be striken by some posts. That quote was for the irony in my eyes, being striken by your posts. Quote: As full control as the EULA lets people to check. I am not going to demand log in credentials and similar, because that would be forbidden and rightfully punished by CCP. As I said elsewhere, you said that all the words used were very well thought and there for a reason. You said full control. Given your methods, I thought you did use some tricks, like speaking to him on both acounts through EVE voice or make one char log on the other at your request without previous advice. Quote: Notice the lack of "Sadly this is information I cannot disclose now". Because this kind of inverviewed material is not going to be slammed in public, ever I expect that all information regarding scammers held by third parties to become available. In case of scamming, specially when it is proved and admitted, any contract or agreement becomes void. You can hold it, but this will only encourage scammers to use you. Quote: nor I kept logged tracks of it My view of you has drastically changed with this statement. By the way, where is the money you were holding as collateral? Originally by: Yih Obviously holding the security myself is not giving security at all. I would, ideally, like to use VV to hold the funds (though if someone has a better idea, I will gladly listen). People would wire funds to me, and then I would wire the 25% to VV at the end of a 24/48 hour period. Confirming VV will do this, and if so, the first payments to her will head off tomorrow. (you guys have until that time to complain about the use of VV - and suggest someone more fitting) _+_ "We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination."
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:36:00 - [342] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 06/11/2009 13:36:34 Quote: A screenshot of an account login page is probably against the Eula but an account login page doesn't tell us anything anyway. I doubt that a screenshot of the character login page is against the eula and in fact I provided such a screenshot in my very 1st bond offer. When I mentioned account login I ofc meant the character login page. A screenshot of that would have proved that Yih and Karttoon were either from the same account or 2 different accounts. I am not going to risk a ban. As you can see there's people here that spend their days hair splitting more than Obama's political adversaries. Imagine the fat possibility, given on a silver platter. Just no. Quote: It is not about proving it being a scam, it is about the things you said as true that you had no way to check http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1190565&page=4#99 Besides the "can control" (vs the is) statement implies that identity cannot be proved at 100%, just that he could make the other character act as "marionette" (ie send mail, convo...). Even assuming he was him: I now know that (if he's going to do it)... I cannot guarantee his true intentions, only that if he really wants to attempt what he claimed to do, he can All of the above is true. So what? Quote: Yih asked for money. You didn't checked the skills of Yih, I believe he has no skills as well. You are another of "he did an audit!" crowd, despite me repeatedly stating it was NOT an audit? Also, what EvE game skills should I check for someone going to pay mercenaries and similar? Quote: Now tell me about the REAL trouble he is going to face Are you going to lend money to Yih or Karttoon anytime soon? They got really that many chances to get it. For someone asking for money (the proponent) it's akin to MD seppuku. Quote: Given your methods, I thought you did use some tricks, like speaking to him on both acounts through EVE voice or make one char log on the other at your request without previous advice Both can be easily faked. Stating that he can control someone else is exactly like that: they can team up and act coherently. For what I know they could sit at the same table on an Internet Cafe and have a good laugh. Hence the simple admission that only control can be determined. Period. Stop. End. Quote: In case of scamming, specially when it is proved and admitted, any contract or agreement becomes void This is your own opinion. In cause of any event, once the process started, my part of the deal is executed as per the arrangement. I don't break agreements. I am not Zorro. It's not like the forum is not full of self made detectives ready to point fingers and accuse them even without a full data dump, right? Quote: My view of you has drastically changed with this statement I am not a feticist. I keep what's agreed upon. I don't hold stuff "in case it can get profitable in the future to ransom someone with it". What we agreed the first day (an EvEmail of the "main") has been kept. The rest not. Quote: By the way, where is the money you were holding as collateral? I got paid for the verification, nothing else. Did you see me posting to confirm I received 1 ISK at all? Like it's ALWAYS done and even a noob knows that? So, why are you trolling, since you don't even hide doing so? I got that CCP are not even checking the insults I got in this thread, but trolling is also against the EULA. I hope the above was enough because you won't get more. Because criticism is fine but being taken by the ass like this is not. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Otebski	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:38:00 - [343] This thing looked as legit as WTS Navy Raven in Jita. I would like to congratualte all those who put cash in it expecting anything in return. Go buy Navy Ravens
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:48:00 - [344] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/11/2009 13:49:56 Quote: Did you see me posting to confirm I received 1 ISK at all? Like it's ALWAYS done and even a noob knows that? The only real way to verify you didn't recieve anything would be with an audit, ironically. You could just be withholding after all...
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:53:00 - [345] Originally by: Otebski This thing looked as legit as WTS Navy Raven in Jita. I would like to congratualte all those who put cash in it expecting anything in return. Go buy Navy Ravens I think this business always looked like a SCAM, but what was clever about it was that people wanted to be a part of it in case it was true. The idea of being involved in the death of GS was exciting. That was the reason I invested, and it was such a small amount of my net ISK I could afford to gamble it. I have invested in ventures that have SCAMMED before but this is the only venture I have ever been played by the SCAMMER. For that I tip my hat to Yih. I have had lots of fun talking to people during this run, Goons, investors and Yih. I did have a lot of fun sparring with Yih after this busted open (before my confirmation post), so my personal involvement has been worth it to me. If people don't eve want to use me as third party again that is fine, but I'll continue to do the things the way I like to. I think this SCAM is over, time to let it die. It's up to the individual who you trust, never be a follower!
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:03:00 - [346] Edited by: flakeys on 06/11/2009 14:06:03 Originally by: Otebski This thing looked as legit as WTS Navy Raven in Jita. I would like to congratualte all those who put cash in it expecting anything in return. Go buy Navy Ravens That is the sad thing about this whole situation and eve at it's current state.Only do anything if the chance of survival is VERRY much in your favour. I think back with good memories of my early days in pure blind.When BOB roamed their first northern operation there and only myself and a friend of mine where left in x-7 our system.It was in the days RAZOR was only a group of missioning people in 5z.We undocked and did our best against BOB and offcourse the blob got us time after time yet the few times we managed to kill someone we had a blast.Just us two versus the mighty BOB.Just before BOB collapsed i visited their killboard and had seen they still had some of the kills/losses on it.It's those memories that makes a good mmorpg. Why this story?Simple in a game you have to take a chance every now and then even if the odds are verry much NOT in your favour.It is what gives the thrills. Those who say i am stupid in investing in this have a different view then me on this and will never grasp mine.I invested about 1.2% of my total wealth in this , in my opinion it was worth it for sure. To those who troll VV and cosmo , i laugh about your ignorance.Telling cosmo is out of business is funny since it is done allmost fully by people who either do not invest at all or just smallish.I think at this point i am one of MD's biggest investors with about 45 bille in investments just on the forums , if i see an offer next week where cosmo is the 3rd party holder i will take fully again what i can. The scam in it self is noteworthy because it was fresh/ fun and entertaining to both investors and spectators , the amount is not.As i said earlier even general newbold got away with more. My last words are directed to yih: Thanks for an entertaining time and allthough my wallet disagrees this is one of the investments i'll remember in a few years and have a smile about.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:06:00 - [347] Originally by: Roguehalo "As full control as the EULA lets people to check. I am not going to demand log in credentials and similar, because that would be forbidden and rightfully punished by CCP." A screenshot of an account login page is probably against the Eula but an account login page doesn't tell us anything anyway. I doubt that a screenshot of the character login page is against the eula and in fact I provided such a screenshot in my very 1st bond offer. When I mentioned account login I ofc meant the character login page. A screenshot of that would have proved that Yih and Karttoon were either from the same account or 2 different accounts. Since you seem to be quite stuck on this point. I openly stated I think even pre getting VV/cosmo to check, that this character was NOT on the same account.
thebarry	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:20:00 - [348] nerds
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:41:00 - [349] Originally by: Tesal Quoting for future reference: Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp? In Goonswarm, any member corp thats owned by one person for moon mining or production is called an alt corp. This is different than a member corp, which would be BTLS or something like that.
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.06 14:42:00 - [350] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha All of the above is true. So what? Please answer the quotes with statements about the quotes. I was talking about this statements: G.N. asked for money. Not unlike this Yih alt here. G.N. used an alt with no required skills. Not unlike this alt. G.N. did not want to make his main public. Not unlike this alt. G.N. never proved to even have a main. This alt proved to me and G.N. cannot be called in cause, EVER. This alt gave out his name so if he scams he's going to have REAL trouble instead. Is that true? Did you checked that? Saying something true does not give you the right to not do so in the next post. Quote: Besides the "can control" > "has full control" (vs the is in control) statement implies that identity cannot be proved at 100%, just that he could make the other character act as "marionette" (ie send mail, convo...). Please quote yourself right. The thing is that when you add full to control all you say now is wrong, and you said: Originally by: VV This is what comes to the eyes: that people just cannot read what is openly stated before their eyes. The sentences were made with great care, not a word should be skipped just because a personal bias sways off what's written. That could not be exact on random posts, but I expected to be acurate on the limited audit statement. Quote: You are another of "he did an audit!" crowd, despite me repeatedly stating it was NOT an audit? You did an audit by the word definition. The fact that only finantial audits happen iRL does not eliminate the others inEVE. No matter how many times you say you didn't. Quote: Also, what EvE game skills should I check for someone going to pay mercenaries and similar? I was talking about you saying that Yih was not a skillless alt without knowing. Please read. Quote: Both can be easily faked (voice and logon). Stating that he can control someone else is exactly like that: they can team up and act coherently. For what I know they could sit at the same table on an Internet Cafe and have a good laugh. Hence the simple admission that only control can be determined. Period. Stop. End. I do not see someone changing his voice without notice. And the logon trick could disprove being the same person, I thought you did something more than a chat to say he was in full control given your standards. If a chat is enough to fool you, I would like to know how. Quote: Are you going to lend money to Yih or Karttoon anytime soon? They got really that many chances to get it. For someone asking for money (the proponent) it's akin to MD seppuku./quote]Yih is a useless alt. karttoon had not a chance before. Again, what are the REAL consecuences? Quote: Did you see me posting to confirm I received 1 ISK at all? Like it's ALWAYS done and even a noob knows that? I apologize for that, looks like I cut the intended "supposed" when rephrasing. What I wanted to know was more along the lines of why didn't you received the cash and why didn't you raised flags when you didn't. I forgot about that at the time, but you were the third party. Quote: So, why are you trolling, since you don't even hide doing so? I apologize again for that mistake, it was not trolling because I did not on purpose (I think it has to be on purpose to be trolling, sorry anyway). I hope that the irate is what have you made to change the questions and the meanings of what I said with misquotes. Please read again the post and answer the real questions and issues if you want to make a reply. Thanks. _+_ "We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination."

Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.06 19:05:00 - [351] VV - full control implies much more than what Yih had over Cartoon, if what's now here is true. Full control would imply that, at a moments notice, Yih could have Kartoon disband GS, or give him all the cash, or a number of other things. Do you feel Yih had these things? Because that's much different from Kartoon sending a chat/eve mail indicating he is Yih. Much better in this case would have been "A senior director of GS has indicated himself as the main of Yih." To the rest: I think you're reading too much into VV's assessment and forgot to make your own judgments. Yih's "main" does have to answer to MD. Whoopdee. Kartoon of goonswarm will no longer be able to solicit loans from the MD elite. Who exactly were you expecting to "hold the bag" if a GS director took the money and laughed? Information disclosing a main with a reputation is a form of security, but everyone upset by this severely overvalued that security. Most people only invested in this for the lulz, so I can't be too hard to VVs assessment. But I would recommend in the future for VV to stop trying to add extra value to her service by hanging a bunch of useless (and in this case untrue) analysis on the facts. State the facts, and collect the paycheck. As it is, if someone invested in this expecting serious results they could hold VV accountable for giving untrue information in the ~~audit~~ information verification. Taken to the extreme/conspiracy theorist, one could suspect intentional misinformation. You can claim English as a second language, so on and so forth, but in the end the same result fo the investor - much like whether General Newbold scammed or really did have a computer nightmare really makes no difference at the end of the day. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.06 19:39:00 - [352] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Tesal Quoting for future reference: Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp? In Goonswarm, any member corp thats owned by one person for moon mining or production is called an alt corp. This is different than a member corp, which would be BTLS or something like that. Right...uh huh, newbs get given Corps in GS. Post with your main. [i]never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.06 19:51:00 - [353] Originally by: Tesal Right...uh huh, newbs get given Corps in GS. Post with your main. Have you ever looked to see just how many corps are actually in GS?
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 02:30:00 - [354] Originally by: Tesal edit Quoting for future reference: Originally by:* Kalrand Originally by: Yih lol, yes - I never paid 500m, well I guess 'technically' I did to Karttoon, but hey. Kalrand, I was hoping Yih could also belong to the charles ponzi school :) Why on earth would you want to be in my alt corp? altcorps are how you moon mine in goonswarm without being able to haargoth the alliance numbskull
Samroski	Posted - 2009.11.07 04:53:00 - [355] Having followed Yih's threads from the first post, I have a few (useless) comments: 1. Yih, kudos for coming up with a scam that was irresistible. So much so that: (a) MD helped you to refine it :) (b) People invested in it for the entertainment value (and got their worth) 2. Scamming is scamming and cannot be justified. 3. There is a limit to how much one should defend one's actions. 4. Somehow I am not looking forward to Yih's further contributions to MD :)
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 09:20:00 - [356] Originally by: Samroski Having followed Yih's threads from the first post, I have a few (useless) comments: 1. Yih, kudos for coming up with a scam that was irresistible. So much so that: (a) MD helped you to refine it :) (b) People invested in it for the entertainment value (and got their worth) 2. Scamming is scamming and cannot be justified. 3. There is a limit to how much one should defend one's actions. 4. Somehow I am not looking forward to Yih's further contributions to MD :) Frankly I think that the fact that the devs openly condone scamming, thievery, backstabbing, the whole nine yards (so long as you're not breaking the eula in the process) means that scamming can be justified, but that's just me.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.07 09:45:00 - [357] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Samroski Having followed Yih's threads from the first post, I have a few (useless) comments: 1. Yih, kudos for coming up with a scam that was irresistible. So much so that: (a) MD helped you to refine it :) (b) People invested in it for the entertainment value (and got their worth) 2. Scamming is scamming and cannot be justified. 3. There is a limit to how much one should defend one's actions. 4. Somehow I am not looking forward to Yih's further contributions to MD :) Frankly I think that the fact that the devs openly condone scamming, thievery, backstabbing, the whole nine yards (so long as you're not breaking the eula in the process) means that scamming can be justified, but that's just me. Wich was the only thing i had/have doubts about.According to the eula it is prohibited to impersonate someone else.This is exactly what yih did in the form of having karttoon mail/talk to cosmoray and VV that they are both the same person.The difference here is that karttoon himself did not have anything against yih impersonating him.Yet in the light of this scam it is a grey array in wich they have stepped. The main question for me when investing was not IF they where the same person since it is against eula to impersonate someone but if that director was going to scam in the end or not wich offcourse was verry likely but worth the risk/fun. So either it is not prohibited to impersonate someone if that person does not mind that OR this is a violation of the eula.
Meatshield7	Posted - 2009.11.07 13:45:00 - [358] Good point flakeys. Although by sending a mail claiming to be from Yi Kartoon also broke the eula by impersonating another character. It was not just Yih that did this. Anyone going to petition this? I'm sure the chief goon would be the last person to mind being banned as he would never dream of taking an internet game seriously. I'm sure he'd just laugh it off and savour the irony of a person who has dedicated himself to forcing people out of the game being forced out himself for a lousy few bil.
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.11.07 14:15:00 - [359] Quote from VV that was quoted by Yih to help his scam :- "I am posting to confirm that indeed Yih either is or has full control over a Goon character " Quote from Cosmoray that was quoted by Yih to help his scam :- "I have been contacted by Yih's main" A request to Yih for a screenshot of his character login page would have exposed this scam right from the start. I'm still not sure what VV means by "has full control over". It's a meaningless airy fairy statement which VV should never have made.
Meatshield7	Posted - 2009.11.07 14:26:00 - [360] Originally by: Roguehalo Quote from VV that was quoted by Yih to help his scam :- "I am posting to confirm that indeed Yih either is or has full control over a Goon character " Quote from Cosmoray that was quoted by Yih to help his scam :- "I have been contacted by Yih's main" A request to Yih for a screenshot of his character login page would have exposed this scam right from the start. I'm still not sure what VV means by "has full control over". It's a meaningless airy fairy statement which VV should never have made. You didn't bother to read Yih's last post did you? It was directly addressed to you and covered this exact point. He had said before the 'audit' that the two toons were on different accounts so how would this screenshot have helped in any way at all?

Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.07 14:53:00 - [361] It's interesting because the EULA is very unclear on the specifics behind that rule (perhaps intentionally) I would like to see further clarification of this rule/ concrete evidence of the rule at work. I would like to state in my favor that I never once claimed to be Karttoon. Whenever I was questioned, even by Cosmo/VV once they knew, I often used the terms 'Karttoon has....' Certainly there was implication, but no direct. Just like one of my original scams was to make a character that looked 'close' to Chribba (took about an hour) and palm myself off as him, without actually stating I am him. If anyone were to ask, I would just ignore it, or speak around it. Therefore any impersonation would be strictly implied. I decided against it (you can look at Chribbah) mostly because after the success of this venture, it becomes less about the ISK and more about the enjoyment (and chribba has been a decidedly great sport). Some real clarification on the impersonation issue would be great. A real life friend stated it extends to impersonations of players, but not characters. I'm curious about that.
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.07 15:01:00 - [362] Originally by: Meatshield7 Vv and cosmorays sttatements about 'yih's main' are also perfactly legitimate as they just assumed he wasn't breaking the eula. Only such an ilegal action would allow them to be misled. The same goes for the comment about full control. The only way yih could not have full control is if he and kartoon were in breach of the eula. Give that this scam was fundamentally based on such a breach ccp should at least return the isk to investors as it was obtained illegally and preferably ban yih and kartoon as well. Hmm, interesting point. Is it in breach of the EULA to convince people you're someone else? Granted in this context Kartoon had Yih's permission, but if it's still a EULA breach, Yih just might deliver on his promise after all - LOL IF THE HEAD OF GOONSWARM GETS BANNED OUT OF THIS :P. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
SexyTrader 02	Posted - 2009.11.07 15:21:00 - [363] The "full control" statement was inaccurate and the only mistake that I believe VV made. There was no proof of "full control". He, in fact, did not have "full control". All he had was the ability to have a mail dispatched, and that's how it should have been reported, and that is far short of "full control". I do think "full control" is not only inaccurate but misleading and probably made people more confident in this than they would have been. I don't think it was a willful misdirection but rather a poor choice of words on VV's part. It's curious because she claims to have been careful with the wording, but it seems like a very obviously poor and inaccurate choice of words to me.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.07 15:27:00 - [364] I believe the wording is "impersonating another player", which Yih definitely did, but kartoon is a pretty fuzzy area If I had money in this, I would definitely report at least yih
Dzil Caldari Sausage Banking	Posted - 2009.11.07 16:37:00 - [365] So, I'm a nerd, and went back to reread the rules. I didn't see anything specific to impersonating another player. Anything like hijacking their account or using their password would be right out. And there's multiple places where impersonating a GM or EVE volunteer will get you a quick punt. But I think Yih's conduct here isn't in violation. Of course, you could petition anyways: a GM might certainly see it differently. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Breaker77 Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.07 16:45:00 - [366] Originally by: SetrakDark I believe the wording is "impersonating another player", which Yih definitely did, but kartoon is a pretty fuzzy area If I had money in this, I would definitely report at least yih So let me get this right. 1. Yih said he had control of a high level director in GS. 2. High level director turned out to be the CEO. 3. The CEO was in on it the whole time and even backed up Yihs claims. How is that impersonating someone else when the person supposedly being impersonated backed it up??
EvilweaselFinance Weasel Enterprises Ltd GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 16:58:00 - [367] Edited by: EvilweaselFinance on 07/11/2009 16:59:46 note to auditors: the CEO can utterly wreck goonswarm without needing any help whatsoever (since he can't be removed) so the mere fact it was kartoon should have tipped you off you people are dumb as bricks please note I'm not telling you this because I think you'll learn I'm telling you this to make it clear why even the newest newbie in goonswarm could have figured out this was a guaranteed scam in less than five minutes and this is why we condone scamming pubbies: y'all are too dumb to live
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.07 17:38:00 - [368] Edited by: RAW23 on 07/11/2009 17:46:33 I'm guessing that most of those who invested for entertainment value wouldn't want to see Yih banned over this. Karttoon being banned, on the other hand, would be enormously entertaining and Yih going too might just be acceptable collateral damage. But if Dzil is right this is all academic. Could someone cite the relevant section of the EULA to clear this up? Edit - thanks Cys Root. Fast and conclusive! Look like they could be in real trouble then.
Cys Root Gallente Onefix RD	Posted - 2009.11.07 17:43:00 - [369] Originally by: EULA Section 2. Sub. B No player may use the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity. You may not obtain, attempt to obtain, use or attempt to use the login name or character name of anyone else.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.07 19:14:00 - [370] Edited by: flakeys on 07/11/2009 19:15:00 Originally by: Yih It's interesting because the EULA is very unclear on the specifics behind that rule (perhaps intentionally) I would like to state in my favor that I never once claimed to be Karttoon. Whenever I was questioned, even by Cosmo/VV once they knew, I often used the terms 'Karttoon has....' Certainly there was implication, but no direct. Yih's identity has been confirmed by VV and Cosmoray These are YOUR words.The identity confirmation can not be seen otherwise as you claiming to be karttoon.Your posts are filled with this and as such IF CCP would respond according to their eula you would have gotten a ban probably and isk would be returned to the investors. However we are talking about impersonating a high GS person who has helped you so i am expecting CCP would not do anything against this if petitioned. Originally by: SexyTrader 02 The "full control" statement was inaccurate and the only mistake that I believe VV made. There was no proof of "full control". He, in fact, did not have "full control". All he had was the ability to have a mail dispatched, and that's how it should have been reported, and that is far short of "full control". I do think "full control" is not only inaccurate but misleading and probably made people more confident in this than they would have been. I don't think it was a willful misdirection but rather a poor choice of words on VV's part. It's curious because she claims to have been careful with the wording, but it seems like a very obviously poor and inaccurate choice of words to me. Only VV and cosmo used full control on this mater , yih however did not have such high regards to it and allways refered to himself as BEING that goon director.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.07 19:30:00 - [371] My last post here, because the thread reached its ultimate end of utility: 1) The target of the statements were investors, not trolls, nitpickers and similar. Trolls and nitpickers have their habitat in CAOD and are out of any financial use in MD. 2) The statements did not exactly inject trust in the investment. Not when they are backed up with clauses like: "I cannot guarantee his true intentions, only that if he really wants to attempt what he claimed to do, he can". Which to anyone with more than 1 brain cell - PLUS the proponent is a Goon - would really and only toss money they can afford to lose. 3) The investors, since they are not morons, "got it" and by now the prominent of them posted how they felt the money was going to be lost but still did it for the luls and "epicness" of the whole things. So, when those hit by the loss posted they had their 5 minutes of fun, why others never seen here are wailing like dismembered cows? 4) The "poor wording" debate aka "can control a powerful blah blah". The poor wording is perfect or at least one of the best I could come across that would be short and clear. Can control means that character B, stated to be in a different account by Yih himself, can be controlled by character A. This, for the less bright out there (Shar help me!) means the two can / will play two clients and can show the following scenarios: 1) A and B are of the same player, on two clients (same or different PCs). A and B can coordinately convo and mail. A can tell B what to do, B (on the same computer) will just do it. 2) A and B are of different players, on the same room or Internet Cafe: A and B can convo and mail. A can tell B what to do, B (on a nearby computer) will just do it. 3) A and B are of different players, anywhere in the world: A and B can still convo and mail by installing any free utility (I actually use this one to control remote EvE clients at home from work: free UltraVNC). A can tell B what to do, since "alt tabbing" of the two clients is still possible, B will just do it remotely. If I asked for voice EvE comm, admitting they did not bring up some "I don't have a working EvE voice setup", the same mechanism of the above points would have applied: 1) Same player (that is Yih's claims): A would alt tab and talk as B, showing to be one person. I sometimes did this by mistake and being my alts on different corps, luls had been abundant. Another solution I am using right now to use 2 audios in one computer is to simply wire the line out of one with the line in of the other. 2) Different players claiming to be one, in a Net Cafe: A would just speak in B's microphone. Claiming to be one person. 3) Different players claiming to be one, anywhere: A would just use NetSupport instead of UltraVNC or install some free audio chat software or XP RDP. Or just invent a plausible excuse like "my second client is on the computer in another room", saying he needs to relog to answer with the other character (and thus negating the "contemporary talk" check). EvE (and also Teamspeak), as I painfully learned allow for the mixer to be used as input, so the tricks are about limitless. For all of the above tricks and with the EULA compliant systems available to the checker, A can fully control B. Period. This is what has been duly reported. This ends my time available for this whole matter, as I feel I don't have any other possible way to explain anything more. Quote: So yih , how far are we going to let this go .Keep the isk with a chance of a ban , or return the isk so no petition will be made? How i love this game .... Yeah, PvP everywhere! - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.11.07 19:48:00 - [372] Originally by: Breaker77 So let me get this right. 1. Yih said he had control of a high level director in GS. 2. High level director turned out to be the CEO. 3. The CEO was in on it the whole time and even backed up Yihs claims. How is that impersonating someone else when the person supposedly being impersonated backed it up?? Impersonation is impersonation. Yih said he was a character that belonged to another player. Would I ban him in this case? No. Will CCP? Probably not. Did he commit a violation of EULA? Yes.
SexyTrader 02	Posted - 2009.11.07 19:50:00 - [373] Not to continue this mostly pointless debate too far, I would say it would have been better to just report the facts in this specific instance. Specifically "Yih was able to have a mail sent from a Goonswarm director's character". People can then use their own reasoning process to decide what that means.
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:24:00 - [374] about buying toons he is going to find it hard to repay but since Karttoon is equally culpable he might be able to help Yih out. I'd ask for a reasonable rate of interest as well if I were you
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:28:00 - [375] Edited by: corestwo on 07/11/2009 20:32:31 Edited by: corestwo on 07/11/2009 20:28:13 The only time I've ever seen CCP take action against one player for impersonating another is based on names that are indistinguishable from each other in CCP's lousy font; for example, the real flakeys versus a theoretical "fIakeys". In-game, if you're going by name alone, these characters might as well be the same person. And even then, all they do is change the name of the offender. But this? This isn't impersonation. This is two players collaborating in a scam, and that's exactly how CCP would see it too. Hope this helps.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:36:00 - [376] Edited by: flakeys on 07/11/2009 20:40:19 Originally by: corestwo Edited by: corestwo on 07/11/2009 20:28:13 The only time I've ever seen CCP take action against one player for impersonating another is based on names that are indistinguishable from each other in CCP's lousy font; for example, the real flakeys versus a theoretical "fIakeys". In-game, if you're going by name alone, these characters might as well be the same person. And even then, all they do is change the name of the offender. Hope this helps. As said i have asked CCP simply: is it ok to impersonate being someone else if that person agrees with it.The answer was NO , you should not do this as this is in violation with the uela.The question now is WOULD CCP repsond accordingly if i show them this investment.If they would then it is clear what should happen to yih according to their own rules as stated to me by one of their gm's, but then again CCP could go by this without answering a petition and neglecting it in the hopes that it will be forgotten since it involves a GS director.One never knows unless petitioning i guess ... if one would want to take it that far
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:39:00 - [377] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: corestwo Edited by: corestwo on 07/11/2009 20:28:13 The only time I've ever seen CCP take action against one player for impersonating another is based on names that are indistinguishable from each other in CCP's lousy font; for example, the real flakeys versus a theoretical "fIakeys". In-game, if you're going by name alone, these characters might as well be the same person. And even then, all they do is change the name of the offender. Hope this helps. As said i have asked CCP simply: is it ok to impersonate being someone else if that person agrees with it.The answer was NO , you should not do this as this is in violation with the uela.The question now is WOULD CCP repsond accordingly if i show them this investment.If they would then it is clear what should happen to yih according to their own rules as stated to me by one of their gm's, but then again CCP could go by this without answering a petition and neglecting it in the hopes that it will be forgotten since it involves a GS director.One never knows unless petitioning i guess ... if one would want to take it that far lol GUYS CCP=GOONS THEY WOULDNT BAN THEIR OWN CEO!
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:41:00 - [378] Originally by: corestwo The only time I've ever seen CCP take action against one player for impersonating another is based on names that are indistinguishable from each other in CCP's lousy font; for example, the real flakeys versus a theoretical "fIakeys". In-game, if you're going by name alone, these characters might as well be the same person. And even then, all they do is change the name of the offender. I have seen them change names that are intended to suggest an identity. As an hypothetical example based loosely on what I've seen, someone other than you calling themselves 'Cores2's Alt' might have some difficulty if pretending to be you, even though the two names are clearly different. á á
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:42:00 - [379] Come back to an interesting discussion. For the record Karttoon sent me an eve-mail stating that he had an ALT called Yih and that he was prepared to do what was in his MD offering. He then stated that all further correspondance should be done with his ALT - Yih.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.07 20:44:00 - [380] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: flakeys Originally by: corestwo Edited by: corestwo on 07/11/2009 20:28:13 The only time I've ever seen CCP take action against one player for impersonating another is based on names that are indistinguishable from each other in CCP's lousy font; for example, the real flakeys versus a theoretical "fIakeys". In-game, if you're going by name alone, these characters might as well be the same person. And even then, all they do is change the name of the offender. Hope this helps. As said i have asked CCP simply: is it ok to impersonate being someone else if that person agrees with it.The answer was NO , you should not do this as this is in violation with the uela.The question now is WOULD CCP repsond accordingly if i show them this investment.If they would then it is clear what should happen to yih according to their own rules as stated to me by one of their gm's, but then again CCP could go by this without answering a petition and neglecting it in the hopes that it will be forgotten since it involves a GS director.One never knows unless petitioning i guess ... if one would want to take it that far lol GUYS CCP=GOONS THEY WOULDNT BAN THEIR OWN CEO! Wich is my guess , they will just go by this as if it never happened and will not respond to a petition regarding this thread worried that their own eula will backfire on them.I can however guarantee that if i would do the same thing as yih did and the person i did it to would report me i WOULD get a ban for the reasons stated above.This is not just 2 people working together , this is yih CLEARLY stating he IS the person who contacted cosmo/VV .

Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.08 03:37:00 - [381] Edited by: Yih on 08/11/2009 03:39:15 Originally by: flakeys Edited by: flakeys on 07/11/2009 20:40:19 Originally by: corestwo Edited by: corestwo on 07/11/2009 20:28:13 The only time I've ever seen CCP take action against one player for impersonating another is based on names that are indistinguishable from each other in CCP's lousy font; for example, the real flakeys versus a theoretical "fIakeys". In-game, if you're going by name alone, these characters might as well be the same person. And even then, all they do is change the name of the offender. Hope this helps. As said i have asked CCP simply: is it ok to impersonate being someone else if that person agrees with it.The answer was NO , you should not do this as this is in violation with the uela.The question now is WOULD CCP repsond accordingly if i show them this investment.If they would then it is clear what should happen to yih according to their own rules as stated to me by one of their gm's, but then again CCP could go by this without answering a petition and neglecting it in the hopes that it will be forgotten since it involves a GS director.One never knows unless petitioning i guess ... if one would want to take it that far Flakeys, feel free to report me. I'm sure someone has already. (at least that's what my email shows) Ultimately, what comes of this is the fact that I never directly stated I was Karttoon, in-game or out of it. As such, no DIRECT impersonation was made, only implied. Such a difference is ultimately what it boils down to. Show me a post where I directly stated to anyone that I was a 'specific' person. It never occured. I implied that I was someone who was in a position. nothing more. The only person who stated he was someone who he wasn't, was in fact, Karttoon. By stating 'I am Yih, Please send further correspondance to my alt, Yih.' Edit: Directly from the EULA "No player may use the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity." I never used the character name of another to impersonate or falsely represent my identity. I DID impersonate someone else, but outside of the scope of this particular rule (since the specific line is 'may use the character name of another player') That did not occur here.
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:30:00 - [382] /slowclap ----------------
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.08 04:43:00 - [383] Edited by: mynnna on 08/11/2009 04:44:41 Originally by: Yih Edit: Directly from the EULA "No player may use the character name of another player to impersonate or falsely represent his or her identity." I never used the character name of another to impersonate or falsely represent my identity. I DID impersonate someone else, but outside of the scope of this particular rule (since the specific line is 'may use the character name of another player') That did not occur here. Told ya'll. <e> oh look I'm posting on the wrong character, whatever.
Hippopotamus Rex	Posted - 2009.11.08 05:51:00 - [384] Originally by: Yih Show me a post where I directly stated to anyone that I was a 'specific' person. It never occured. I implied that I was someone who was in a position. nothing more. The only person who stated he was someone who he wasn't, was in fact, Karttoon. By stating 'I am Yih, Please send further correspondance to my alt, Yih.' You are the one that keeps using the term "stated". The EULA rule you quoted doesn't say "state", just "use". The fact that you have to keep changing the language of the rule to show you did nothing wrong seems to indicate the opposite.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.11.08 08:17:00 - [385] Originally by: Yih Flakeys, feel free to report me. Why thank you , so kind of you.
C'ompass	Posted - 2009.11.08 13:32:00 - [386] Nice to see the whole investment turned to be a scam. Yih, in case you are going to continue scamming, please make some notes of money you earn that way. I am interested in billions per month and (isk+fun)/hour ration. Thank you for doing bussines anyway, I hope you enjoyed my 600M as I enjoyed 'investing'.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.08 13:40:00 - [387] C'ompass, I will do just that. I can next to garuntee that the Isk/hour is better than most anything a new player can do thats for sure. (There are a couple of other avenues which can garner similar profit, but high profit trading is in the realms of those knowledgeable enough - which suggests experience - and Poker is, well....it's poker :P) I'll write down a rough guesstimation of this particular case, and as I continue keep a log. I'll keep it updated wherever possible, and share with people who are interested. C'ompass, consider your 600m a nice downpayment winks In honesty though I'm quite happy sharing it with the entire forum, and will move to do so as I gain more examples.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.08 13:52:00 - [388] but you arent a NEW player Yih... dont talk to all of us like we are completely ******ed. cough it up; Isk/hour with all the lobbying and social engineering you did, i would be surprised if you made anything above 10+M/hour! (I mine more than that.)
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.08 13:59:00 - [389] Originally by: Ji Sama but you arent a NEW player Yih... dont talk to all of us like we are completely ******ed. cough it up; Isk/hour with all the lobbying and social engineering you did, i would be surprised if you made anything above 10+M/hour! (I mine more than that.) lol You're forgetting that he has no real ability - for him and his kind (moochers and looters) that is pretty good going.
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.08 14:36:00 - [390] Yih - any chance you could post the mail in which you informed investors about the lottery here? I'd love to read that to see what cosmo's decisions were based on (any other communiques relevant to the scam would be great as well) . Also, could you check your wallet log and see if you received anything from me? A very quick check of mine suggests you didn't (sorry!) but I can't do a proper search due to my i-net problems. Thanks in advance.

Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.08 14:47:00 - [391] Edited by: Yih on 08/11/2009 14:51:09 Originally by: Ji Sama but you arent a NEW player Yih... dont talk to all of us like we are completely ****ed. cough it up; Isk/hour with all the lobbying and social engineering you did, i would be surprised if you made anything above 10+M/hour! (I mine more than that.) Ah Ji Sama, you love to show me up. Wether or not you believe or wish to admit it, I am a next to new player. I have no more than at most 7 weeks of EVE experience behind me. The total intake of ISK at the very end personally (after Karttoons 50% cut for about 80% of all funds, and the 500m given to VV) equated to a paltry (by MD standards) 10.2 billion ISK. The initial formulation of the plan took 1 hour. The 3 initial posts, took another 2. Responding/reading peoples posts on the First MD thread. 2 hours SCC lounge time. 1 hour Speaking with VV regarding how to get this across to MD. 1 hour Rehashing idea (second post) 1.5 hours. Karttoon. 1 hour. Replying to second post + reading ideas 3 hours Internal mail 1 hour More conversation with VV. 1 hour SCC lounge time. 3 hours Rehashing idea (third and final post). 1 hour Replying to thread, keeping up to date. 3 hours Internal mail 1.5 hours Negotiations with Merc's. 1 hour SCC lounge time. 3 hours. Even more conversation with VV. 0 minutes :P Lottery 30 minutes. Responding to the Cosmo incident 1 hour Internal mail 30 minutes. Poker match with Cosmoray. 1 hour reveal and subsequent posts 1 hour. Total time spent: 31 hours. Time spent multitasking/gaining profit through other means. 11 hours. Pre multitasking - 330m ISK/hour Incl multitasking - 510m ISK/hour Initial cost was 1 billion ISK (which is taken into consideration in above figures) 500m ISK of that was a 'deposit' Additional bonus: Being written about in the next issue of EON. All of these figures are correct to my belief. No I will not be audited on them. :D You can either take it or leave it, you aren't getting them from anywhere else. Future endeavours might be audited, but since my next scam is already underway, an audit would potentially reveal that. Originally by:** RAW23 Yih - any chance you could post the mail in which you informed investors about the lottery here? I'd love to read that to see what cosmo's decisions were based on (any other communiques relevant to the scam would be great as well) . Also, could you check your wallet log and see if you received anything from me? A very quick check of mine suggests you didn't (sorry!) but I can't do a proper search due to my i-net problems. Thanks in advance. I'm afraid that it will need to be posted in here from someone else. Unfortunately I do not know of a way to view my 'sent items', and when people responded, they often removed my reply to make more space. I'm sure C'ompass, Cosmoray, flakeys, or perhaps even biggles would post if asked. EDIT (added above, rather than waiting 5 minutes for a reply and illegal bump) Also, Please note, this post is not bragging rights, the information was requested, and I simply relayed it. Interesting side note - This scam probably had a better ISK/hour than most, unless you don't count them as scams initially. GN might have had a good ISK/hour though, I see he did a similar amount of work to myself (but formatted it better initially due to more experience in the forums/game than I)
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.08 14:53:00 - [392] Edited by: Ji Sama on 08/11/2009 14:54:27 You spend more time in the lounge than 1 hour mate :D edit: read your table wrong, 10 hours is more like it, at the minimum, you where in there alot imo, over the last month! But 300+ M ISK per hour is ok. If that is true.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.08 14:56:00 - [393] Edited by: Yih on 08/11/2009 14:59:20 Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 08/11/2009 14:54:27 You spend more time in the lounge than 1 hour mate :D edit: read your table wrong, 10 hours is more like it, at the minimum, you where in there alot imo, over the last month! But 300+ M ISK per hour is ok. If that is true. total SCC lounge time was 7 hours. 8.5 if you include that 50% of VV's talking was public in that channel. 6 out of 7 hours (not the initial 1) were all multitasking hours though. I was gaining profits through other ventures primarilly during those hours. EDIT: some comedy gold for the forum. logged in today to see 10m on Yih. along with this wonderful e-mail. 2009.11.07 06:40 i am giving you 10 mil might seam like pocket change to you but its a lot to me. this will be the fist time i am trusting a goon, even though its likely a scam of epic proportions, i dont give a rats ass about retun on investment or any other crap like that. just bring goon to its mother ****ing knees so i can have a hand in choping off atleast one head of this hydra --- Thankyou, you made my day.
RAW23	Posted - 2009.11.08 15:22:00 - [394] Just a hypothetical question - what would happen if karttoon did get banned over this? Do banned toons get biomassed? If so, is there a mechanism to allow him to be replaced as ceo? I guess it would be more problematic if the account were just suspended indefinitely, since, as I understand it, GS's structure does not allow the ceo to be fired and replaced. Yih - thanks for the response. Any chance of a check on my payment? And I don't know why you should be shy re: bragging rights. I think you earned a good brag. On the other hand, might be best not to count your chickens yet as the minimum ccp should do is restore isk scammed through breaching the eula (whether you stated anything directly, I think it is fair to say that you used or attempted to use - as in made use of - somone elses name). Not sure how they would do this when the isk has been spent already, though ... I'm sure a negative wallet would just lead to doing no more financial transactions on that toon. But regardless of ccp's ultimate actions, it was still pretty impressive to pull this off.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.08 15:35:00 - [395] RAW - no 300m hit my account from you. I removed it from the end calculations. I could have done with another 300m though :D
C'ompass	Posted - 2009.11.08 19:50:00 - [396] Yih's emails (for those who are interested): 2009.10.18 09:19 Consider yourself slapped in advance. I've put you down for two shares :) Have a good day. -------------------- 2009.10.18 08:53 600mil sent / donated - I hope it's a scam or I'll have to slap myself for not buying more. ******************** 2009.10.22 12:22 Great news for those investing! We have recently been talking to a potential Investor, Leowen, who has offered to fund 100 billion ISK into the venture. This is great news for us, as well as for you. For those with good math's skills, this puts us at only 10.7 billion ISK or 35 shares remaining! We are in final talks with Leowen now, and he has suggested using himself as a third party to hold and liquidate assets. If you would like this to be your method and get some extra return, please let me know!!! In addition, Leowen only wants two specific assets from GoonSwarm, assets we were planning on getting - So with this I'm able to double the amount of gain for each of you to .4% a share. This deal will be finalised within the next few hours, to a day at most, then I will be updating the forums. If you would like to get any further investment in before it closes - now is the time. Fly safe all! ~Yih ********** 2009.11.01 22:37 Dear Investors, As some of you might have noticed, a lottery has surfaced in the sell orders forum for my identity. I ask you not to be alarmed by this. The lottery will be being drawn in the hour of my first true actions against GS. Now that we have gone fully Invested, I thank you all for your patience, and time. Please fasten your seatbelts, and make sure your arms and legs remain inside the vehicle at all times. Have a nice day ~Yih ******************** 2009.11.03 02:47 Thankfully, over the course of the last few hours, Cosmoray and I hammered out an agreement that would suit investors. Part of this agreement was the refund of 600mil to him, for 2 shares, which are now once more up for grabs. The other part, and it is something I admit was foolish of me, is that I would see the response from Investors regarding the lottery, and act accordingly. As such, I implore you all to reply with what you feel about the lottery, and wether or not it should be cancelled/refunded. I am also seeking 600m worth of investment now, to make up for the shares that I now have (I had to liquidate assets I wasn't comfortable liquidating in order to refund Cosmo's ISK)
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.09 01:37:00 - [397] Originally by: Ji Sama Edited by: Ji Sama on 08/11/2009 14:56:33 Also, if you where a totally new player, where did you get the initial 1B from? I wont buy it, you are a master in social engineering, you present what is an obvious scam, and still get idiots to pay you, under the disguise of doing it for the lulz. But you wont for a second get me to believe, that you dont have indebt knowledge of eve, you have to, you couldnt have pullet it off otherwise :D Easy, it came from my first scam (mostly). Which was incredibly unrefined also. Actually, if you were REALLY sharp, you could see me make a pretty big error when I first started, if you follow back in the past. Smaller scams are easier to pull off. The first scam only took me about 1.5 hours, and paid off 450m - but I had barely any knowledge of the game back then. If I never convince you that I am a new player, that's fine. Since there is no way to 'proove' it, I'll just let you run with that. The real life friend who set me here loose upon you all knows it though, and is incredibly amused. Never underestimate an intelligent persons resource gathering skills. As for social engineering. I have a sticker stuck to my laptop "Social Engineering Specialist: Because there is no patch for human stupidity" this isn't the first game I've scammed in/social engineered in. But it is the first to let me do it legally.
Tyranus vonCarstein Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.09 02:14:00 - [398] Originally by: Yih Additional bonus: Being written about in the next issue of EON. God, please don't fill my magazine with this... crap... Put something interesting in it.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.09 02:24:00 - [399] Don't worry, I'm not going to 'fill' your precious magazine :D
Tyranus vonCarstein Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.09 02:29:00 - [400] Glad to hear it.

Felisinn	Posted - 2009.11.09 02:54:00 - [401] There's nothing fun or interesting about scams anymore. I'm finding it harder and harder to motivate myself to read MD to get any decent information or relevant discourse. The claim to be some kind of clever social engineer based on this event is a sad ego trip. Anybody else in this game that has built business relationships and social networks to succeed might qualify, but not you.
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.09 04:40:00 - [402] Originally by: Felisinn There's nothing fun or interesting about scams anymore. I'm finding it harder and harder to motivate myself to read MD to get any decent information or relevant discourse. The claim to be some kind of clever social engineer based on this event is a sad ego trip. Anybody else in this game that has built business relationships and social networks to succeed might qualify, but not you. You're funny. Obviously you haven't read this thread, as I wasn't the one to state that there was clever social engineering at work, other people did. Social network engineering and social engineering are two completely different things, both google and wiki will tell you that (and they are honest 100% of the time, rly!!!)
Hippopotamus Rex	Posted - 2009.11.09 05:34:00 - [403] Originally by: Yih I wasn't the one to state that there was clever social engineering at work Originally by: Yih this isn't the first game I've scammed in/social engineered in Seems your posts would disagree. And no one said "clever." Thats ALL you.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 08:12:00 - [404] Quote: Because there is no patch for human stupidity" this isn't the first game I've scammed in/social engineered in. But it is the first to let me do it legally I noticed EvE attracts the best gems of humanity. I mean, before EvE I thought humanity consisted of living sh!t, but EvE proved me being a clueless optimist. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.09 08:45:00 - [405] Originally by: Yih Originally by: Felisinn There's nothing fun or interesting about scams anymore. I'm finding it harder and harder to motivate myself to read MD to get any decent information or relevant discourse. The claim to be some kind of clever social engineer based on this event is a sad ego trip. Anybody else in this game that has built business relationships and social networks to succeed might qualify, but not you. You're funny. Obviously you haven't read this thread, as I wasn't the one to state that there was clever social engineering at work, other people did. Social network engineering and social engineering are two completely different things, both google and wiki will tell you that (and they are honest 100% of the time, rly!!!) Is this supposed to be a burn? If so its pretty weak. If you are looking for sympathy, or understanding, try Crime and Punishment or CAOD. No one cares that you have spent the past 10 years being a little ** in every MMO you have ever played. If this is a cry for help, or you need therapy, please talk to someone. never stop posting...with alts.** Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Felisinn	Posted - 2009.11.09 12:25:00 - [406] Originally by: Yih You're funny. Obviously you haven't read this thread, as I wasn't the one to state that there was clever social engineering at work, other people did. I have, from your very first post that got shot down for being a joke. The fact that you required the constructive criticism from MD to make your "plans" look legit only makes my case. The only impressive thing you did to convince people here that you were legitimate was come back after making a complete a of yourself in your first attempt. Originally by:** Yih Social network engineering and social engineering are two completely different things, both google and wiki will tell you that (and they are honest 100% of the time, rly!!!) I was more implying the use of social networking to socially engineer something to qualify as such. Clearly I've struck a chord.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.09 13:31:00 - [407] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 08:22:01 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 08:20:07 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 08:19:10 Quote: Because there is no patch for human stupidity" this isn't the first game I've scammed in/social engineered in. But it is the first to let me do it legally I noticed EvE attracts the best gems of humanity. I mean, before EvE I thought humanity consisted of living sh!t, but EvE proved me being a clueless optimist. Edit: before someone comes out with the "LOL it's a game", being a total douche in a game is about freely spewing the repressed nullity they are in RL. In practice those who behave with a minimum of decency in EvE is because they can manage well enough in RL not to need to vent out their "forbidden" repressions in a game. Edit 2: no, it's not roleplayed douche-ness, as it's quite visible to an experienced roleplayer who is roleplaying being a douche and who IS a douche. QFT (yes all of it)
Liberty Eternal	Posted - 2009.11.09 14:28:00 - [408] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 08:22:01 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 08:20:07 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 08:19:10 Quote: Because there is no patch for human stupidity" this isn't the first game I've scammed in/social engineered in. But it is the first to let me do it legally I noticed EvE attracts the best gems of humanity. I mean, before EvE I thought humanity consisted of living sh!t, but EvE proved me being a clueless optimist. Edit: before someone comes out with the "LOL it's a game", being a total douche in a game is about freely spewing the repressed nullity they are in RL. In practice those who behave with a minimum of decency in EvE is because they can manage well enough in RL not to need to vent out their "forbidden" repressions in a game. Edit 2: no, it's not roleplayed douche-ness, as it's quite visible to an experienced roleplayer who is roleplaying being a douche and who IS a douche. Exactly what most people reading this thread thought from the first. A few people however decided to play Yih like a pawn because they wanted to at least try and get Karttoon banned. Apart from that, the guy had no hope and has been used and thrown to one side. Lying continuously without the friction of conscience is not social engineering, more a sad commentary on the person doing it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.09 17:32:00 - [409] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 09/11/2009 17:32:31 Quote: A few people however decided to play Yih like a pawn Yih has been used like a pawn by several people, an Karttoon is probably the top of all. I am still amazed that she is still trying to join that alliance. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Estella Vance	Posted - 2009.11.09 18:58:00 - [410] Holy Cow; Nathan Sanderson has returned from grave

Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.09 19:04:00 - [411] Don't worry VV, Karttoon won't post here any more because I freakin owned him with my previous post and he is crying in his basement over his can of redbull and is all butthurt. never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Venal Inamorata	Posted - 2009.11.10 02:52:00 - [412] Originally by: Yih Never underestimate an intelligent persons resource gathering skills. As for social engineering. I have a sticker stuck to my laptop "Social Engineering Specialist: Because there is no patch for human stupidity" this isn't the first game I've scammed in/social engineered in. But it is the first to let me do it legally. Surely an "intelligent person" could... Play the game to fruition? I understand one-off scammers, trying to make a quick fortune to start a legitimate career with, but where does this near-autistic fascination with scamming come about? I am genuinely interested.
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.10 04:21:00 - [413] Originally by: Venal Inamorata Originally by: Yih Never underestimate an intelligent persons resource gathering skills. As for social engineering. I have a sticker stuck to my laptop "Social Engineering Specialist: Because there is no patch for human stupidity" this isn't the first game I've scammed in/social engineered in. But it is the first to let me do it legally. Surely an "intelligent person" could... Play the game to fruition? I understand one-off scammers, trying to make a quick fortune to start a legitimate career with, but where does this near-autistic fascination with scamming come about? I am genuinely interested. Well, I think it follows a linear, rational progression: -First, you start out getting mad when others behave stupidly. -Next, you come to learn/understand why they make irrational, stupid decisions. -Later, you pass through a phase where you try to help them, repeatedly banging your head on the wall. -Finally, you stop caring. This is where you either withdraw, or realise it's just a game and go rogue. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Yih Republic Military School	Posted - 2009.11.11 03:30:00 - [414] Originally by: Dzil Well, I think it follows a linear, rational progression: -First, you start out getting mad when others behave stupidly. -Next, you come to learn/understand why they make irrational, stupid decisions. -Later, you pass through a phase where you try to help them, repeatedly banging your head on the wall. -Finally, you stop caring. This is where you either withdraw, or realise it's just a game and go rogue. QFT
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.11 03:46:00 - [415] Originally by: Yih Originally by: Dzil Well, I think it follows a linear, rational progression: -First, you start out getting mad when others behave stupidly. -Next, you come to learn/understand why they make irrational, stupid decisions. -Later, you pass through a phase where you try to help them, repeatedly banging your head on the wall. -Finally, you stop caring. This is where you either withdraw, or realise it's just a game and go rogue. QFT So now you are trolling the people who were trolling you for trolling yourself. Ok there...don't let me stop you. Keep going. Also, you totally missed the Sarah Palin joke built in there. Geez. Totally pathetic. Quote: A sense of humor will save us all. never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.11.11 04:45:00 - [416] Unreal... This had scam written all over it right from the beginning. What gave it away? Why would a "powerful" goonswarm director need resources to move **s out of GS? Tools for Research Business**
Roguehalo	Posted - 2009.11.11 06:32:00 - [417] Originally by: Brock Nelson Unreal... This had scam written all over it right from the beginning. What gave it away? Why would a "powerful" goonswarm director need resources to move ****s out of GS? What completely baffled me was suppose it was all legit? Somebody has just stolen 600b.......what on earth made the the idio.....err investors think the thief would give any of it to them? To save his reputation?
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2009.11.11 08:11:00 - [418] Originally by: Roguehalo Originally by: Brock Nelson Unreal... This had scam written all over it right from the beginning. What gave it away? Why would a "powerful" goonswarm director need resources to move **s out of GS? What completely baffled me was suppose it was all legit? Somebody has just stolen 600b.......what on earth made the the idio.....err investors think the thief would give any of it to them? To save his reputation? Sorry, but if a plan has holes in them that the planner cannot explain, then you shouldn't invest. Tools for Research Business**
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:44:00 - [419] Originally by: Brock Nelson Unreal... This had scam written all over it right from the beginning. What gave it away? Why would a "powerful" goonswarm director need resources to move **s out of GS? Yah it did. The entire idea was to scam people and steal from them, even if it succeeded, and the idea was to pay someone to be a thief. It was funny though to start with. Then it got bogged down by all the crying. never stop posting...with alts.** Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.11.11 15:47:00 - [420] I dont get it, was this a scam? or not? Is goonswarm disbanded? Did we win the internets?

The AEther Caldari Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.11 20:27:00 - [421] dudes, if you wanted to give money to a Goon director why not just find his name in-game, r-click, and transfer ISK? alts or no alts, MD threads or no MD threads, the outcome would have been the same Originally by: RAW23 Just a hypothetical question - what would happen if karttoon did get banned over this? Do banned toons get biomassed? If so, is there a mechanism to allow him to be replaced as ceo? Banned toons do not get biomassed. Past experiences show that most often banned parties go and create or purchase a new character and start playing with it in place. So yeah, you can pay billions of ISK to get Karttoon banned but he can just as well create a new alt and become the director of Goonswarm again in a single day. And somehow I doubt that banning of a single member of GS harms the GS alliance much as goons most likely get banned in dozens every month :P
Nata Asphyxia	Posted - 2009.11.12 10:41:00 - [422] Well done, Yih
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.12 11:37:00 - [423] So wait, was someone was actually dumb enough to actually send Yih any ISK?
Dzil Caldari United Kings Holdings	Posted - 2009.11.12 13:47:00 - [424] Originally by: Brock Nelson Unreal... This had scam written all over it right from the beginning. I even used a visual aid with color. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.12 15:18:00 - [425] Originally by: Malcanis So wait, was someone was actually dumb enough to actually send Yih any ISK? Yes i was
Moya81	Posted - 2009.11.12 18:38:00 - [426] The only thing this scam has proven is that nobody likes GS. Keep making enemies you definetly are good at that. There will come a day where having any relationship with GS in your employment history will be a burden. Before any "U mad" comments are thrown my way, no I didn't invest in this stupid scam, it was pretty obvious from the start. I am however a little amazed that 2 well-known MD elitist have implicitly fallen for this scammer. Yes they did raise the usual "flags" but also implicitly took part in this. Chribba was in my eyes the only one which reacted appropriately clearly not impressed by the blinkies. My 2 cents
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.12 18:47:00 - [427] Originally by: Moya81 The only thing this scam has proven is that nobody likes GS. Keep making enemies you definetly are good at that. There will come a day where having any relationship with GS in your employment history will be a burden. Before any "U mad" comments are thrown my way, no I didn't invest in this stupid scam, it was pretty obvious from the start. I am however a little amazed that 2 well-known MD elitist have implicitly fallen for this scammer. Yes they did raise the usual "flags" but also implicitly took part in this. Chribba was in my eyes the only one which reacted appropriately clearly not impressed by the blinkies. My 2 cents Just who are you?
sir gankalot	Posted - 2009.11.15 16:12:00 - [428] Originally by: Moya81 The only thing this scam has proven is that nobody likes GS. Keep making enemies you definetly are good at that. There will come a day where having any relationship with GS in your employment history will be a burden. Actualy GS is so big and has it's finger in so many things you are prolly linked to their activities too, wether you like it or not
Tesal	Posted - 2009.11.15 23:53:00 - [429] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Moya81 The only thing this scam has proven is that nobody likes GS. Keep making enemies you definetly are good at that. There will come a day where having any relationship with GS in your employment history will be a burden. Before any "U mad" comments are thrown my way, no I didn't invest in this stupid scam, it was pretty obvious from the start. I am however a little amazed that 2 well-known MD elitist have implicitly fallen for this scammer. Yes they did raise the usual "flags" but also implicitly took part in this. Chribba was in my eyes the only one which reacted appropriately clearly not impressed by the blinkies. My 2 cents Just who are you? Who are you to complain about alts, alt boy. never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Moya81	Posted - 2009.11.16 02:32:00 - [430] Originally by: sir gankalot Originally by: Moya81 The only thing this scam has proven is that nobody likes GS. Keep making enemies you definetly are good at that. There will come a day where having any relationship with GS in your employment history will be a burden. Actualy GS is so big and has it's finger in so many things you are prolly linked to their activities too, wether you like it or not That might be true, yet it doesn't relate nor have any relevance with my former statement... Originally by: Kalrand Just who are you? If you really must know, I am one of the many people that see right trough your scam you so eloquetly described in all details in this thread. Furthermore I would like to add that only naive people would fall for that scam, because even though you have put alot of effort into making it look legit and solid, the very name of your alliance is reason enough not to trust you. In my eyes there is no amount of "reputation" nor "competence" you can try to associate with your character's name that will be enough to compensate for that. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that shares this point of view. Therefore your reply that attempts to discredit my statement because I posted with an alt just further confirms what I already suspected. This is not CAOD.

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.16 15:12:00 - [431] Originally by: Moya81 Therefore your reply that attempts to discredit my statement because I posted with an alt just further confirms what I already suspected. This is not CAOD. Actually, the fact that its not CAOD, makes overly critical, alliance bashing, statements even more out of place here. Especially so when you are posting on an alt. Back up your words with a real name, or they're just noise.
Moya81	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:23:00 - [432] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Moya81 Therefore your reply that attempts to discredit my statement because I posted with an alt just further confirms what I already suspected. This is not CAOD. Actually, the fact that its not CAOD, makes overly critical, alliance bashing, statements even more out of place here. Especially so when you are posting on an alt. Back up your words with a real name, or they're just noise. I'll do more than back-up my words with a name, I'll back-up my words with facts: 1. Anybody who has even been marginally active on the forums knows that GS scams on a regular basis. 2. This very thread is about a member of GS scam. 3. The amount of recruitment scams posted in C&P are so numerous that ppl have lost count. 4. There are plenty links I could go search, but tbh this discussion is not even worth that degree of work. So how exactly is stating well-known and documented facts considered alliance bashing? Your attempts at defending a lost cause just makes you loose whatever little crdibility you had. You want to know who I am? In what way is it relevant to the contents of my statements? Unlike yourself, I am not the one asking for people to trust me with their money...
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:31:00 - [433] Originally by: Moya81 I'll do more than back-up my words with a name, I'll back-up my words with facts: Actually, MD is a forum where your name is far more important than your observations. Originally by: Moya81 1. Anybody who has even been marginally active on the forums knows that GS scams on a regular basis. As an organization, you won't be able to point to anything that has been a scam. Individuals have free reign to play EvE however they want. Many of us find the overreaction of people to what happens in a game to be hilarious. Originally by: Moya81 2. This very thread is about a member of GS scam. Yih isn't in GS as far as I know. He probably could get sponsored in if he asked the right people though. Originally by: Moya81 3. The amount of recruitment scams posted in C&P are so numerous that ppl have lost count. Agreed. Originally by: Moya81 So how exactly is stating well-known and documented facts considered alliance bashing? Actually my point is more that you're an obvious alt, more than anything else. Originally by: Moya81 Your attempts at defending a lost cause just makes you loose whatever little crdibility you had. You want to know who I am? In what way is it relevant to the contents of my statements? Unlike yourself, I am not the one asking for people to trust me with their money... Actually, I asked for feedback from people to see if it's feasible in the future. I would like to add that most of the criticism to that has been constructive at this point.
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.11.16 18:39:00 - [434] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Moya81 I'll do more than back-up my words with a name, I'll back-up my words with facts: Actually, MD is a forum where your name is far more important than your observations. It is for those who choose the path of the lemming yes Originally by: Moya81 1. Anybody who has even been marginally active on the forums knows that GS scams on a regular basis. As an organization, you won't be able to point to anything that has been a scam. Individuals have free reign to play EvE however they want. Many of us find the overreaction of people to what happens in a game to be hilarious. If the organisation itself has said it wants eve destroyed , if the name is shown mostly with scams involved and trolling CAOD people will add 1+1 and make 2 Originally by: Moya81 2. This very thread is about a member of GS scam. Yih isn't in GS as far as I know. He probably could get sponsored in if he asked the right people though. Correct however he could not have done it at all without the help of a goon in a high position Originally by: Moya81 3. The amount of recruitment scams posted in C&P are so numerous that ppl have lost count. Agreed. Originally by: Moya81 So how exactly is stating well-known and documented facts considered alliance bashing? Actually my point is more that you're an obvious alt, more than anything else. Alt or not what he says is interpreted as truth amongst most eve players Originally by: Moya81 Your attempts at defending a lost cause just makes you loose whatever little crdibility you had. You want to know who I am? In what way is it relevant to the contents of my statements? Unlike yourself, I am not the one asking for people to trust me with their money... Actually, I asked for feedback from people to see if it's feasible in the future. I would like to add that most of the criticism to that has been constructive at this point. True and here comes the twitch , i actually believe you are serious about the offer and have no feeling what so ever to make it a scam unlike most do
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:07:00 - [435] Originally by: flakeys It is for those who choose the path of the lemming yes I didn't say I agreed. Actually, you'll ususally see me on here criticizing the people who have been around the longest. Quote: If the organisation itself has said it wants eve destroyed , if the name is shown mostly with scams involved and trolling CAOD people will add 1+1 and make 2 They want to kick over your blocks. Not because they really care what you're doing, or because they don't like you, but because they want to see you cry. And they're pretty up front about that. Why do you think CAOD is such a joke? Quote: Correct however he could not have done it at all without the help of a goon in a high position I think the joke was on anyone who thought a high level goon director would need isk to destroy goonswarm. This whole thread was on the same level as a Nigerian Prince needing to borrow money to wire you a fortune. Quote: True and here comes the twitch , i actually believe you are serious about the offer and have no feeling what so ever to make it a scam unlike most do Did you ever see the first post I made on that topic? Months ago when I was just getting started? Here it is. Shortly thereafter I borrowed ten billion isk, and instead of towering one moon, I towered 9.
Fitz VonHeise Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.16 19:12:00 - [436] For what is is worth... added. ♣ Yih Helper: Karttoon Proof GoonFleet Link1 . Link2 . Link3 . Link4 . Link5 . Link6 . Link7 Services I Provide: Alliance Creation ● Caldari Standings ● Thieves Of EvE ● Titans ● My Links What Makes Me Tick
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:09:00 - [437] To the people who invested in this and claims that the money was worth the show: "Even if they never got anything for it, it was cheap at that price. Without malice aforethought I had given them the best show that was ever staged in their territory since the landing of the Pilgrims! It was easily worth fifteen million bucks to watch me put the thing over." Charles Ponzi would be proud of you! Quote: Actually my point is more that you're an obvious alt, more than anything else. Facts are more important than words, and although words can be twisted in the mouth of some people, the facts that are behind arguments matters more than any name, I would say that facts without a name behind are easier to consider objectively. The fact that you didn't fight against the facts but the person instead makes me think that you have few arguments to show. Quote: As an organization, you won't be able to point to anything that has been a scam. GS not only allows scams, but encourages them, teaching new members how to scam. What is the difference between GS and his members? GS is the people who are in. Quote: Yih isn't in GS as far as I know. He probably could get sponsored in if he asked the right people though. What about karttoon? Quote: Actually, I asked for feedback from people to see if it's feasible in the future. I would like to add that most of the criticism to that has been constructive at this point. As Yih has proved there is always people investing in scams, so you could raise money the same way and choose not to scam at the end, but I'd not trust someone who lose nothing by scamming and has red flags on him, and we'll not know what's your choice until the very end, so anything you say and do until the final closure could be just to enable your scam. Talking about alts, you are in an alt corp, so I believe you must have another character more 'mainly' out there. _+_ "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. " EVEwatch Sidebar soon
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:28:00 - [438] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Facts are more important than words, and although words can be twisted in the mouth of some people, the facts that are behind arguments matters more than any name, I would say that facts without a name behind are easier to consider objectively. The fact that you didn't fight against the facts but the person instead makes me think that you have few arguments to show. Some of his points are correct. Some are just baseless. I really was only arguing the later. The fact that he's an alt means I don't know who it is. Nor do I really care, I was making a point above. Quote: GS not only allows scams, but encourages them, teaching new members how to scam. What is the difference between GS and his members? GS is the people who are in. Actually, directors aren't allowed to do the same kinds of shenanigans that the rank and file can. As far as I know, alliance level agreements don't get broken ever. Quote: What about karttoon? If you were to IM Karttoon right now and ask "XYZ said he's your alt. Is he?" I'd bet he says yes. Quote: As Yih has proved there is always people investing in scams, so you could raise money the same way and choose not to scam at the end, but I'd not trust someone who lose nothing by scamming and has red flags on him, and we'll not know what's your choice until the very end, so anything you say and do until the final closure could be just to enable your scam. There is nothing I could ever say to prove this isn't part of some secret master plan to run off with giant piles of investor money. Quote: Talking about alts, you are in an alt corp, so I believe you must have another character more 'mainly' out there. I think I explained it in another thread. If you want to anchor a POS, and the alliance doesn't want to give you roles to anchor/reset/tear down all of the alliance POSs, you need to have a corporation to do it. I'm a moon miner. That's how you get around CCP's broken game mechanics.
Moya81	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:24:00 - [439] Originally by: Kalrand I didn't say I agreed. Actually, you'll ususally see me on here criticizing the people who have been around the longest. No clue to what youÆre not aggreeing to here... the OP statement? My statement? Your own statement? The only point you made with this statement is that you criticize older players. Originally by: Kalrand We want to kick over your blocks. Not because we really care what you're doing, or because we don't like you, but because we want to see you cry. And we're pretty up front about that. Why do you think CAOD is such a joke? Fixed that for you since it's hard to dissociate you from the very alliance youÆre part of. Good try. Originally by: Kalrand I think the joke was on anyone who thought a high level goon director would need isk to destroy goonswarm. This whole thread was on the same level as a Nigerian Prince needing to borrow money to wire you a fortune. The same applies to your public bond offeringà ItÆs a joke to imagine you needing public funds. Originally by: Kalrand Some of his points are correct. Some are just baseless. I really was only arguing the later. The fact that he's an alt means I don't know who it is. Nor do I really care, I was making a point above. So by stating the obvious such as grass is green and water is wet you made a point? In that case by your own logic, if I were to say that you're an alt I would have also made a point correct? No Sir, those are all facts and nothing else. In addition your arguements of my baseless statements seem to be missing so far. Originally by: Kalrand Actually, directors aren't allowed to do the same kinds of shenanigans that the rank and file can. As far as I know, alliance level agreements don't get broken ever. OFC alliance level aggreements don't get broken else the alliance wouldn't be able to function. Yet the aggreements between a GS member and individual/s not members of GS is a totally different ballgame and you know it. Once again side-stepping and inconclusional replies from your side. Originally by: Kalrand If you were to IM Karttoon right now and ask "XYZ said he's your alt. Is he?" I'd bet he says yes. This is your opinion and not a fact, even if it where true it proves nothing. Also itÆs my recollection that there was an actual conversation between one of the market elites and Karttoon thus he surely didnÆt limit himself to just saying ôyesö. This ofc is just my opinion just like yours and the only person that can answer that is the person that actually did the audit. Once again an incunclusional statement. Originally by: Kalrand There is nothing I could ever say to prove this isn't part of some secret master plan to run off with giant piles of investor money. This is what we have been saying all along, and you have just argued your way to Neverland and back just to reach the same cunclusion...
Nadyja Amarr	Posted - 2009.12.17 15:48:00 - [440] Thanks Yih, The best read I had in a long time. Looking forward to your next plan. Keep it up. Yih, Robin Hood of EVE.

Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.12.17 16:04:00 - [441] Originally by: Nadyja Thanks Yih, The best read I had in a long time. Looking forward to your next plan. Keep it up. Yih, Robin Hood of EVE. God damn it you **ing fail.... Bumping this **ing garbage thread exactly 1 mth after the last reply.
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.12.17 16:09:00 - [442] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Nadyja Thanks Yih, The best read I had in a long time. Looking forward to your next plan. Keep it up. Yih, Robin Hood of EVE. God damn it you **ing fail.... Bumping this **ing garbage thread exactly 1 mth after the last reply. Not to mention he doesn't really get the 'robin hood' story.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2009.12.17 16:12:00 - [443] Originally by: flakeys Not to mention he doesn't really get the 'robin hood' story Steal from the stupid/butthurt and keep for himself? That was it, wasn't it?
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.12.17 16:12:00 - [444] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: flakeys Not to mention he doesn't really get the 'robin hood' story Steal from the stupid/butthurt and keep for himself? That was it, wasn't it? Yea something like that :D
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.12.17 16:15:00 - [445] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: flakeys Not to mention he doesn't really get the 'robin hood' story Steal from the stupid/butthurt and keep for himself? That was it, wasn't it? Yea something like that :D Just the part about the stupid/butthurt is right ...
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.12.17 16:17:00 - [446] Originally by: Ji Sama Originally by: Nadyja Thanks Yih, The best read I had in a long time. Looking forward to your next plan. Keep it up. Yih, Robin Hood of EVE. God damn it you **ing fail.... Bumping this **ing garbage thread exactly 1 mth after the last reply. And right when you got your posting priveleges back, too, Ji Sama. Shame!
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 13:29:00 - [447] So: is Karttoon paying out? Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
RAW23	Posted - 2010.01.28 13:30:00 - [448] Turns out Yih was the Goonswarm accountant. All his promises were fulfilled.
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 13:36:00 - [449] You know how we've grown somewhat desensitized to LOL and type it without actually laughing out loud? This one has me laughing out loud. Which is annoying in EVE, because inevitably the wife then inquires and it takes a 10 minute long back story to fully explain how damned funny it is. But that's why I love EVE. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 14:14:00 - [450] I'm confused. Why was this necro'ed? Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money

Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 14:17:00 - [451] Originally by: Dretzle Omega I'm confused. Why was this necro'ed? Because, in my opinion, it just became relevant. Go browse COAD for a sec. Goonswarm just got ****ed. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2010.01.28 14:30:00 - [452] Originally by: Dzil Goonswarm just got ****ed. And? ----------------------- MD stock market / Audits 001 / MD investees
RAW23	Posted - 2010.01.28 14:36:00 - [453] Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: Dzil Goonswarm just got ****ed. And? And effectively, what Yih promised to do has happened. Some modifications, of course, but completely catastrophic.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 14:45:00 - [454] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: Dzil Goonswarm just got **ed. And? And effectively, what Yih promised to do has happened. Some modifications, of course, but completely catastrophic. A link would be prudent, instead of just a comment that this thread is now funny. I even dirtied myself and went over to CAOD and the top three threads about goonies had no revealing information, really. Originally by:** Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:01:00 - [455] http://jumponcontact.com/2010/01/hanlons-razor/ Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:09:00 - [456] Originally by: Dzil http://jumponcontact.com/2010/01/hanlons-razor/ I did like SirMolle's comment "The enemy gate is down." in this thread. And I wonder if he deliberately used that as a reference to Ender's Game, or if he just meant the enemy was down (and implied, let's kick them now!). Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Mme Pinkerton Eschaton Industries	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:10:00 - [457] Originally by: Dretzle Omega I even dirtied myself and went over to CAOD and the top three threads about goonies had no revealing information, really. You go to CAOD looking for information? better look here: shc
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:11:00 - [458] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: Dretzle Omega I even dirtied myself and went over to CAOD and the top three threads about goonies had no revealing information, really. You go to CAOD looking for information? better look here: shc Only because they told me that's where the information was. Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:23:00 - [459] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: Dretzle Omega I even dirtied myself and went over to CAOD and the top three threads about goonies had no revealing information, really. You go to CAOD looking for information? better look here: shc Only because they told me that's where the information was. There's some info, but it's admittedly like finding a needle in a haystack. The thread "Karma is a b**** " has something related, and most of the rest is just part of the dogpile. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:26:00 - [460] So karttoon , how YOU doing?

RAW23	Posted - 2010.01.28 15:31:00 - [461] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Originally by: Dzil http://jumponcontact.com/2010/01/hanlons-razor/ I did like SirMolle's comment "The enemy gate is down." in this thread. And I wonder if he deliberately used that as a reference to Ender's Game, or if he just meant the enemy was down (and implied, let's kick them now!). The MP3 at the end of Dzil's link tells you most of what you need to know. Goons dropped sov due to an accounting error (ironically because of their internal financial arrangements - with an alliance full of scammers they don't trust each other not to scam so they kept all the corp funds secure when they were needed to pay sov bills ), lost all their key systems and are evacuating back to Syndicate (the last, if the Mittani is to be trusted ).
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:19:00 - [462] Do you want to know what happened?
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:23:00 - [463] Originally by: Kalrand Do you want to know what happened? Would be interesting to hear your perspective, yes. Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:28:00 - [464] Edited by: flakeys on 28/01/2010 16:29:03 Originally by: Dretzle Omega Originally by: Kalrand Do you want to know what happened? Would be interesting to hear your perspective, yes. You know my views on goons kalrand but as dretzle says it would be nice to get the views on this from you.Clearly said from YOU , so not the overall goons view As far as CAOD goes it is about not paying the bills.
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:35:00 - [465] Originally by: Kalrand Do you want to know what happened? Sure. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
RAW23	Posted - 2010.01.28 16:49:00 - [466] Originally by: Kalrand Do you want to know what happened? Please.
Tyranus vonCarstein Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2010.01.28 17:01:00 - [467] Originally by: Kalrand Do you want to know what happened? Please tell.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.01.28 17:05:00 - [468] Edited by: SetrakDark on 28/01/2010 17:06:01 I did it. Now accepting donations as a reward for my efforts. You're welcome. o7
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 17:52:00 - [469] Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 28/01/2010 17:06:01 I did it. Now accepting donations as a reward for my efforts. You're welcome. o7 I will donate to the tune of ONE THOUSAND ISK! Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 18:40:00 - [470] Edited by: Kalrand on 28/01/2010 18:40:34 Background: One of the things that Goonswarm has been good at for the last few years is getting high level spies into various alliances, or turning high level directors of warring corporations to our side. Because of this, our directorate is structured in a way that any one director would minimize the damage to the alliance. Example: Karttoon has the big giant reserve of all the money, and the only guy who can push the button to nuke the alliance. (Incidentally, this is why Yih's scheme was so hilarious to anyone in GS). Our CFO, gets a large portion of the money, and any of the income, but isn't a "director" in game mechanics, so he can't just take more. This is then dolled out by him to the various projects and titular directors to spend on things. Any income is returned to him, and if there is an excess, it's kicked back up to the wallet controlled by the CEO. Also, we have an independent auditor, who apparently didn't have roles to audit the alliance wallet. Karttoon goes on his honeymoon, promising his wife no internet spaceships for a few weeks, and leaves with all the isk locked up. Our CFO doesn't log into the game for a month, since he's (as we now know) burned out. The auto-pay system continues to take isk from the designated wallet slot. The CFO is not monitoring this. The auditor can't. No one else should/does have roles to monitor this. At the onset of Dominion, our logistics teams determined that they are able to save the alliance more ISK per month by taking down fuel burning towers (set up pre dominion to maintain sov) as compared to turning off sov in systems, though they do that in many of them. Many of the goon member corporations take over the sov payments for their own constellation, with Goonfleet only having leftover to-be-removed systems, logistics systems, and important station systems. War starts and logistics are diverted to fighting off three invading alliances, which with current Dominion mechanics, and Goonswarm's US timezone dominance, is actually going pretty well, though it's 100% defensive. Dominion 1.1 changed the TCU online time from 12 hours to 8, meaning that, if there is no sov, an alliance can take sov in a single timezone. This is not a problem for Goonswarm since we're fighting a defensive war, and still have sov just about everywhere. Two Days Before Sov Drops: Dominion mechanics have autopay fail on many sov payments two days before they are due, and for the next two days send DED mails to various directors that sov is about to fall. Directors receive hundreds of these each day, and their mailboxes are eternally full, so no one sees them and raises the alarm. The Day Before Sov Drops: The CFO pops back in, tells people that he is kind of burned out, and tries to sell his cap ship manufacturing business. No one notices the "kind of burned out" part.

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 18:40:00 - [471] Edited by: Kalrand on 28/01/2010 18:40:49 The Day: IT happened to be going on some kind of a r64 reinforcement op, and are up later than normal, in force, but out in the middle of nowhere querious. Goons are harassing them, but IT had better numbers at that point. Goons had just finished some other major fight the day or two before, and were in the middle of moving combat ships to NPC Delve in expectation that IT would try to siege NOL, the Goon market capital soon. The bill comes due. There's not enough isk in the wallet. Sovereignty drops suddenly in most of the major station systems in Delve at 11pm EST, in the last third of the US time zone. Member corps are unaffected. Our CEO is still out, and no one can reach him. The CFO is offline, no one has heard from him in two weeks, except for him trying to sell his cap ship business. I figure out what happened, and post in the current op thread. At first most people think it is a billing bug, not a billing mistake. The Mittani takes control and tells everyone to get everything they can haul out of stations to safety. Phrease raises a huge fleet and attempts to defend everywhere at one. Logistics starts onlining TCU's across all of delve. IT realizes what happens about as fast as the rest of the game, and makes a beeline for any important system, especially NOL & J-L. Their numbers swell, as word gets out. Goons log in in huge numbers. AAA invades station systems in Querious. The fight/evacuation continues deep into the night, but IT/AAA/Stain has superior numbers. Random pirates come into querious to try to gank evacuating people in industrial ships. Goons have been outnumbered for weeks, and were able to defend under Dominion mechanics. The only thing needed to defend a system, is to have dominance for one timezone, only once over a four day period. Since sov has dropped, the first alliance to drop a TCU gains sov. IT destroys several goon TCUs all over delve, and replace them with their own. AAA does as well. Sys-K then joins the party and invades TPAR in Period Basis. The Next Day: Many of the Goon TCUs are saved, and online early in the morning the next day. Several of the most important systems were camped and controlled by IT, particularly NOL, the market hub, and J-L, the capital ship staging system. These then become IT systems later that morning after two large battles for control in early Euro prime. Other systems are taken at leisure as the Euro prime goon numbers are not going to be dominant, and by the time Goons regain dominance in the evening US time, several other important, but less key, stations are lost. The CFO pops back online and realizes what happened. The CEO still has no idea.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 18:44:00 - [472] Epilogue: The CFO is known to you as "Sophie Daigneau". His cap ship venture was CAIDS.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.01.28 18:52:00 - [473] Thanks for that! Fullest explanation I have seen so far by a long way. You wound your business down in time didn't you?
RJ Nobel Nobel Research and Development	Posted - 2010.01.28 18:52:00 - [474] This is easily the best synopsis I've read. Thanks for the info Kalrand.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:01:00 - [475] I belive in hearing two sides of the story but so far the only people i spoke to ingame are those on the other side. I would like to thank you for such a nice layout of what happened kalrand.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:05:00 - [476] Originally by: RAW23 You wound your business down in time didn't you? Yea. I did about two and a half weeks ago. I'm particularly bad at combat, but good at logistics, and wanted to get involved with the combat logistics of the defense of Delve. Since the sov disaster, I've just been evacuating assets (mine and other people), lighting cynos, and spying on the invading forces. I actually didn't suffer any loss. I noticed the sov drop before most people knew what was going on, and had a pre-set system of cyno alts from my moon mining operation. I was out into NPC delve within three hours. My cache of stuff was in empire the next day, though I still have jump clones and laughably fit combat ships that I'm using. Had this happened three weeks ago I probably would have suffered losses, though my operation was tight enough that I would have been able to pay my bonds back in full but definitely would have had to sell my jump freighter to do it. Remember, I owed fifteen billion in principal, and over a billion in interest every month.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:07:00 - [477] Good to hear that kalrand
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:13:00 - [478] Originally by: flakeys I belive in hearing two sides of the story but so far the only people i spoke to ingame are those on the other side. I would like to thank you for such a nice layout of what happened kalrand. You're quite welcome. I haven't had time to see whats going on in the forums here, what's the other side saying?
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:16:00 - [479] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: flakeys I belive in hearing two sides of the story but so far the only people i spoke to ingame are those on the other side. I would like to thank you for such a nice layout of what happened kalrand. You're quite welcome. I haven't had time to see whats going on in the forums here, what's the other side saying? According to CAOD the same as what you say mostly , but a lot less detailed.There is one nice battle report that covers the start of the sov loss to 24 hours later wich seemed verry nice and unbiased from an -A- FC. You know how CAOD is , both the IT and co side as the goon side ,hence why i was glad to read a report from you wich i could believe to be accurate.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:17:00 - [480] Originally by: Kalrand I haven't had time to see whats going on in the forums here, what's the other side saying? Same thing.

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:23:00 - [481] Originally by: flakeys You know how CAOD is , both the IT and co side as the goon side ,hence why i was glad to read a report from you wich i could believe to be accurate. You know, if I actually posted my post in CAOD it would be flamed by all sides for 10 pages. There's a reason people only go there to troll.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:23:00 - [482] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: flakeys I belive in hearing two sides of the story but so far the only people i spoke to ingame are those on the other side. I would like to thank you for such a nice layout of what happened kalrand. You're quite welcome. I haven't had time to see whats going on in the forums here, what's the other side saying? Yes, Kudos for that overview, Kalrand! Originally by: Akita T BTW, if you see God when you're clutching for your chest due to sudden realization you have no chance to get out of this with your wallet intact tell him he still owes me money
Dzil Caldari Greyhound investments	Posted - 2010.01.28 19:45:00 - [483] Thanks Kalrand. Wish you all luck in your new home: with the Sov changes it may be just as well anyways. Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.01.28 20:01:00 - [484] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 28/01/2010 20:04:28 Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: flakeys You know how CAOD is , both the IT and co side as the goon side ,hence why i was glad to read a report from you wich i could believe to be accurate. You know, if I actually posted my post in CAOD it would be flamed by all sides for 10 pages. There's a reason people only go there to troll. QFT Yesterday on SCC lounge I provided what imho is a decently faithful representation of (those I knew when I was there, in one "workhorse corp") IT Alliance's aspirations. We were meant to slowly grow (well, not really that slowly ) and then basically one day face "the definitive battle", with rivers of blood and honor. Not another craptastic end that really does neither bring justice to EvE, nor on those who worked for months to return to 0.0 and ready up, grind dreads, wake up at 2.30am for alliance ops and so on. It has been an unwanted "easy way out", at least for those thinking like me. Edit: as I said yesterday (still on SCC), it's just r3tarded that EvE game mechanisms protect you MUCH more when you lockdown a T1 ammo BPO than when you are at the head of a major alliance. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.01.28 20:11:00 - [485] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha QFT Yesterday on SCC lounge I provided what imho is a decently faithful representation of (those I knew when I was there, in one "workhorse corp") IT Alliance's aspirations. We were meant to slowly grow (well, not really that slowly ) and then basically one day face "the definitive battle", with rivers of blood and honor. Not another craptastic end that really does neither bring justice to EvE, nor on those who worked for months to return to 0.0 and ready up, grind dreads, wake up at 2.30am for alliance ops and so on. It has been an unwanted "easy way out", at least for those thinking like me. Edit: as I said yesterday (still on SCC), it's just r3tarded that EvE game mechanisms protect you MUCH more when you lockdown a T1 ammo BPO than when you are at the head of a major alliance. At the end of the day it's pretty funny that Goons pushed a button and ejected BoB from Delve, and then later got ejected because they forgot to push a different button.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.01.28 20:21:00 - [486] I think both events are direct products of being among the biggest blobs. Not that these events are bound to happen to massive alliances or that they don't happen to smaller ones, but this kind of director level burnout and failure is far more likely in these massive entities. Neither paying sov bills nor keeping track of your directorate are inherently unreasonable requirements for retaining sovereignty, but they are more prone to error in the massive organizational nightmares that are the biggest of the blobs. My humble opinion.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2010.02.03 07:24:00 - [487] Originally by: Yih GS used to be as fragile as BoB. Over time that changed. GS can't be destroyed by one man. For anyone who doesn't know yet... Goonswarm just effectively disbanded, courtesy of the CEO. A picture-perfect Haargoth repeat.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.03 07:34:00 - [488] Would you like to know what happened?
Tesal	Posted - 2010.02.03 08:26:00 - [489] Originally by: Kalrand Would you like to know what happened? I see Mittani had his roles stripped. He has also been logging his alts on and off. If I had to guess, I would say there was a verbal exchange. Mittani decided to steal some stuff for revenge and activated his networks to help him get the loot out. Then he got caught halfway, there was a big fight on vent (recorded I hope) and Karttoon got even more **ed off and disbanded the alliance. Then he logged off and isn't answering his phone. Am I close? never stop posting...with alts.** Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet	Posted - 2010.02.03 08:32:00 - [490] Nah. Karttoon, for reasons unknown, kicked every corp except the wallet corp and one other out of GoonSwarm as well as stripped roles of other directors in GoonFleet. While we can't confirm it's assumed that he made off with at least the corp wallet, likely the dread cache and other assets as well. Funny stuff. Goons are laughing at it just as much, if not more, than anyone else.

Keiko Shizuka	Posted - 2010.02.03 09:49:00 - [491] Originally by: mynnna Funny stuff. Goons are laughing at it just as much, if not more, than anyone else. I think you underestimate just how much everyone else is laughing. ;)
RAW23	Posted - 2010.02.03 10:10:00 - [492] Originally by: Kalrand Would you like to know what happened? Please. Trying to work the details out from CAOD is like swimming through cold treacle.
Keiko Shizuka	Posted - 2010.02.03 10:21:00 - [493] Originally by: Tesal I see Mittani had his roles stripped. He has also been logging his alts on and off. I don't know, but that can be seen as suspicious too. He was probably leaving for IT with his Titan, best you shoot him before asking. Seriously though, what's the timeline on those events?
Nym Qyamara Gallente Draconis Alumni Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2010.02.03 11:39:00 - [494] I still think that GoonSwarm will re-form as "Band Of Brothers" - that would be the ultimate "for the lols" from them and it's so such a Goonie thing to do. Afterall, they "own" the name.
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.02.03 11:47:00 - [495] Edited by: flakeys on 03/02/2010 11:47:51 Originally by: Kalrand Would you like to know what happened? If you could be so nice so write up a nice post like the last time i would be gratefull yes. Btw on topic of the thread. Imagine now getting a repayment plus interest from yih , MAN that would be odd .
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.03 14:04:00 - [496] Originally by: flakeys Edited by: flakeys on 03/02/2010 11:47:51 Originally by: Kalrand Would you like to know what happened? If you could be so nice so write up a nice post like the last time i would be gratefull yes. Btw on topic of the thread. Imagine now getting a repayment plus interest from yih , MAN that would be odd . Stuff unfolded in a curious way, personally speaking. The very person whose burnout caused Goons to fold paid me interests for months due to the CAIDS bond. GS paid me off in IT alliance 500M in consultancy fees. GS CEO or whatever revealed to be an uneducated ogre, the fake alt was much more credible than the real thing GS now unfolds as per the (now known to be fake) plans. Nothing beats reality at its own irony. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.02.03 14:31:00 - [497] Mostly remarkable , the one person named here who would bring goons down is in fact the person who pulled the plug today. Coincidence?
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet	Posted - 2010.02.03 21:35:00 - [498] Edited by: mynnna on 03/02/2010 21:36:24 Originally by: Keiko **uka Originally by: mynnna Funny stuff. Goons are laughing at it just as much, if not more, than anyone else. I think you underestimate just how much everyone else is laughing. ;) Everyone else's laughter is a facade, they're secretly crying because they know that absolutely nothing they did had any role in actually killing "Goonswarm" Originally by: Keiko **uka Originally by: Tesal I see Mittani had his roles stripped. He has also been logging his alts on and off. I don't know, but that can be seen as suspicious too. He was probably leaving for IT with his Titan, best you shoot him before asking. Seriously though, what's the timeline on those events? Mittani had his roles stripped along with every other director by Karttoon, so as to make it impossible for directors to grab stuff back from corp hangers. You're reading into it too much. Originally by: Nym Qyamara I still think that GoonSwarm will re-form as "Band Of Brothers" - that would be the ultimate "for the lols" from them and it's so such a Goonie thing to do. Afterall, they "own" the name. Karttoon also 'owns' the entity "Band of Brothers", so that would be a little difficult. At the moment we're working on migrating people to GoonWaffe (the corp) and are debating what to name the new alliance. Some of the more entertaining options, if you ask me, are "Gonefleet" or "Colony Collapse Disorder [Billz]", but we'll see. Originally by: flakeys Mostly remarkable , the one person named here who would bring goons down is in fact the person who pulled the plug today. Coincidence? Were you an inves...er, sucker? You seem really, really hopeful that Karttoon actually was Yih.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.03 21:48:00 - [499] Originally by: mynnna Originally by: flakeys Mostly remarkable , the one person named here who would bring goons down is in fact the person who pulled the plug today. Coincidence? Were you an inves...er, sucker? You seem really, really hopeful that Karttoon actually was Yih. It's not impossible that they weren't one and the same, but there's no way in hell he's paying you people if he is.
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:11:00 - [500] Originally by: Kalrand Would you like to know what happened? Absolutely. I grasped the most essential facts (Goonswarm = gone) from the sov maps, and apparently karttoon is the culprit if CAOD is to be believed. Aside from that, I can (no offense) only wade through so many Goon posts before I go crazy. I appreciated your explanation of the sov bill incident, so could you shed some light on what actually happened this time 'round?

Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:13:00 - [501] One Week before the disbanding When we last left the story, Karttoon was happily away on vacation, Delve was on fire, and the CFO had just been sent to the pillory on the goon forum. Over the next twenty four hours word trickled down from the remaining directors that we were abandoning any defense of Delve, and moving out as quickly as possible. The same game mechanics that allowed us to defend against a much larger hostile fleet outside our prime, would doom us to never taking back any of the fallen stations. At this point The Mittani gave a State of the Goonion address which summed up the above points, and gave us a destination: Syndicate, the original home of GoonFleet. Three days before the disbanding Continuing on into the week, Goons evacuated Delve as best they could given the circumstances, first for NPC Delve, then Lowsec, then dumping their assets somewhere in Highsec space, and usually hopping back into Delve to help other people evacuate, and shoot at random IT people. People began to stage in Orville for the eventual push into Syndicate. Delve continued to get worse every day, and personal assets that weren't evacuated by day four would need a fleet to break the station camps. Darius JOHNSON was pulled out of retirement to lead us until someone could locate the CEO. Darius gave a second address to rally people ops focused on breaking ships and materials out of Delve. This continued for several days, with each day being slightly less successful. A large number of mercenary corporations and assorted other wardecs were issued against GoonSwarm and, given the average goon's skill at this game, a huge number of ships were blown up across all of high sec. Eventually Goons made it to Orvolle, which is right on the entrance to Syndicate. Whereupon the immediately got camped into the station by the area residents. Whenever a op was called to clear the undock, the hostiles would dock, and this has repeated for a few days. Two days before the disbanding Karttoon returns! He gets back from his vacation and promptly doesn't log in or post. He eventually shows up on Jabber, and tells everyone that he's not resigning. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes. The capfleet hulls are transferred to him, to do reimbursements for everything over the last three weeks. The day before Karttoon logs into the forums and makes a handful of posts, half dealing with his vacation, and half trying to downplay how bad everything is. Almost every response is a post telling him to resign. The Mittani begins to run interference to quell the angry Goons, and it tampers down on the forum, a bit. A poll is posted, and Goons are about two to one on the resign or not resign question, not that they have any say in the matter.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:13:00 - [502] The day Karttoon doesn't post. He logs into jabber, and I have no idea what he was up to. Some guy named Kalrand gets appointed to the position held by the old CFO. Around 11pm eastern time, the end of the US prime that most of goonswarm plays in, Karttoon logs in, and kicks out every corporation in goonswarm. Karttoon then takes away hanger rights from anyone he can in GoonFleet. Any sovereignty still held in Delve is lost. Goons are suddenly not subject to wardecs and take the opportunity to fly around and move things. Any titan/capship/whatever in space, at a pos, is bounced out of the shields as soon as the pilot logs in. Hostiles decent on the North syndicate area and attack goons. Some goons attack other goons because standings aren't immediately correct between the member corporations. This is largely fixed pretty quickly. Various directors use hidden alts to steal as much as they can from Goonfleet, but one of them announces this in the corporate local chat, which Karttoon sees, comments on, and continues to remove standings. A mothership is lost to a hostile fleet. A capship producers begins to insurance scam his existing stock that he hasn't been able to sell in a few weeks. Rumors abound that it's Karttoon destroying the cap fleet hulls that had been returned to him. Karttoon starts to post on eve-online.com. He is stripped of access to goonfleet.com. Now Karttoon has the GoonSwarm alliance, the GoonFleet corporation, several wallet corporations, and the Band of Brothers corporation. Along with hundreds of billions in isk and assets. Goons are dropping Goonswarm, and joining Goonwaffe, an old goon corporation from before the increase in the number of members that could be in a single corporation. Darius JOHNSON is in control.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:27:00 - [503] Originally by: mynnna weak revisionism just stop, please you're embarrassing yourself
mynnna Caldari GoonFleet	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:30:00 - [504] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: mynnna weak revisionism just stop, please you're embarrassing yourself Which part, exactly? I see a tongue-in-cheek joke about who's laughing at what, some clarifications, and a shot at flakeys.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:34:00 - [505] Edited by: SetrakDark on 03/02/2010 22:34:47 Originally by: mynnna Which part, exactly? I see a tongue-in-cheek joke about who's laughing at what, some clarifications, and a shot at flakeys. No, we can tell. You're alright with everything...really.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:36:00 - [506] Originally by: SetrakDark Edited by: SetrakDark on 03/02/2010 22:34:47 Originally by: mynnna Which part, exactly? I see a tongue-in-cheek joke about who's laughing at what, some clarifications, and a shot at flakeys. No, we can tell. You're alright with everything...really. It was pretty clear to the average goon that karttoon was about to **** us. This is the guy, who's made his whole eve career about griefing people who trust him.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:40:00 - [507] Originally by: Kalrand This is the guy, who's made his whole eve career about griefing people who trust him. yes, yes, we know. you planned the whole thing. shushushushushooooooo it's ok shushsa shusha shoo momma's here
Frenden Dax Dax Acquisitions	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:44:00 - [508] More epic than Suas or Remedial by an order of magnitude and then some. Ok, thanks Kalrand; nothing earth-shattering but it's always fun to know what the other side thinks happened. You guys seem to have bad luck with alliance leadership though. Maybe symptomatic of the member base from which they spring, but still
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:45:00 - [509] Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: Kalrand This is the guy, who's made his whole eve career about griefing people who trust him. yes, yes, we know. you planned the whole thing. shushushushushooooooo it's ok shushsa shusha shoo momma's here No, it wasn't planned. He just started going through the "What to do when you're about to scam someone" bit.
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.03 22:48:00 - [510] Originally by: Frenden Dax More epic than Suas or Remedial by an order of magnitude and then some. It's what made the Yih thing so odd to us. It's not like karttoon needed isk to do this.

Zea Aestria	Posted - 2010.02.04 00:27:00 - [511] Kalrand - thanks for your posts. Great reading.
Freya's Valkyrie	Posted - 2010.02.04 00:35:00 - [512] Toasting in epic bread
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.04 00:47:00 - [513] Quote: Around 11pm eastern time, the end of the US prime that most of goonswarm plays in, Karttoon logs in, and kicks out every corporation in goonswarm. Karttoon then takes away hanger rights from anyone he can in GoonFleet. ... Any titan/capship/whatever in space, at a pos, is bounced out of the shields as soon as the pilot logs in. "GS CEO or whatever revealed to be an uneducated ogre, the fake alt was much more credible" Quoting myself off above for truth. Quote: A poll is posted, and Goons are about two to one on the resign or not resign question, not that they have any say in the matter Quote: He eventually shows up on Jabber, and tells everyone that he's not resigning So, this has been the "we do relaxed and different" alliance? I smell the same stench politics that affected and affect the others Quote: It's what made the Yih thing so odd to us. It's not like karttoon needed isk to do this But I see he took inspiration off this. The vectorial result of those tons of MD lies has been exactly a self fulfilling prophecy. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2010.02.04 01:32:00 - [514] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: mynnna Originally by: flakeys Mostly remarkable , the one person named here who would bring goons down is in fact the person who pulled the plug today. Coincidence? Were you an inves...er, sucker? You seem really, really hopeful that Karttoon actually was Yih. It's not impossible that they weren't one and the same, but there's no way in hell he's paying you people if he is. Exactly my point back in the day. Thanks for that reports, it is very pleasing to see it explained without insults and/or derailings and without stupid claims, fights and theories. EVEwatch Sidebar soon "It is the unofficial force ù the Jita irregulars. "
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.02.04 02:00:00 - [515] Kalrand and mittens are both excellent reads and great to talk to... I keep worrying I might get the urge to ask if somebody can let me join goonswarm --------------------------------- Ship Purchase Program Killmail Service discontinued by request.
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.02.04 05:05:00 - [516] As the above poster said. Thanks for posting the story Karland, it was a good read. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Felix Jugo	Posted - 2010.02.04 07:44:00 - [517] Kalrand, congratulations on your promotion to CFO. Sorry it didn't happen under other circumstances.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.02.04 08:21:00 - [518] Originally by: Felix Jugo Kalrand, congratulations on your promotion to CFO. Sorry it didn't happen under other circumstances. On the bright side, managing finances should be easy. Its not like we have any.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.04 08:48:00 - [519] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Felix Jugo Kalrand, congratulations on your promotion to CFO. Sorry it didn't happen under other circumstances. On the bright side, managing finances should be easy. Its not like we have any. Did that guy manage to also suck up your orders and items stashes in Jita? If not, you are not in that bad shape. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Holdings	Posted - 2010.02.04 08:51:00 - [520] ...I have this strange urge to join Goons now that Kalrand is CFO (excellent choice btw). Who do I send my security deposit to?

corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:10:00 - [521] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Felix Jugo Kalrand, congratulations on your promotion to CFO. Sorry it didn't happen under other circumstances. On the bright side, managing finances should be easy. Its not like we have any. Did that guy manage to also suck up your orders and items stashes in Jita? If not, you are not in that bad shape. I actually paid off investors and cashed out GFIB a few months ago, only just unloaded the last of my Tech yesterday because I'm more or less inactive and didn't feel like monitoring it (and then it spiked up by 11k/unit, didn't want that extra 5b in profit anyway amirite). Even if I hadn't though, it was (despite the tongue-in-cheek name) a private operation and I'd have been quite immune from Karttoon's shenanigans.
Kara Roideater	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:14:00 - [522] Originally by: corestwo I actually paid off investors and cashed out GFIB a few months ago, only just unloaded the last of my Tech yesterday because I'm more or less inactive and didn't feel like monitoring it (and then it spiked up by 11k/unit, didn't want that extra 5b in profit anyway amirite). Sorry dude. But it went to a good home.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:31:00 - [523] Edited by: corestwo on 04/02/2010 14:32:00 Hmm yes that name does look familiar You got the last ~60k out of a 440k unit order. I really do have the worst timing when it comes to speculation. Did the same thing with my neodymium stocks. At least nanotransistors crashed after I sold mine rather than going up...
flakeys Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.02.04 14:37:00 - [524] Edited by: flakeys on 04/02/2010 14:46:10 Edited by: flakeys on 04/02/2010 14:45:08 Originally by: mynnna[quote=flakeys Mostly remarkable , the one person named here who would bring goons down is in fact the person who pulled the plug today. Coincidence? Were you an inves...er, sucker? You seem really, really hopeful that Karttoon actually was Yih. There is a difference between being hopefull about getting my 900 mille back and seeing the funny thing of the coincedence. If only you knew how much my 900 mille loss has got me struggling for isk then you would not laugh with me . Originally by: mynnna Originally by: SetrakDark Originally by: mynnna weak revisionism just stop, please you're embarrassing yourself Which part, exactly? I see a tongue-in-cheek joke about who's laughing at what, some clarifications, and a shot at flakeys. If that was a shot it only made a scratch instead of a headshot , better luck next time.
Keiko Shizuka	Posted - 2010.02.04 16:02:00 - [525] Originally by: Kalrand Informative summary Thanks for posting that Kalrand. And congrats on your promotion. :)
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.04 16:36:00 - [526] Originally by: Keiko **uka Originally by: Kalrand Informative summary And congrats on your promotion. :) Thanks.
Tesal	Posted - 2010.02.04 17:12:00 - [527] So there are 2 Goon factions now? Rome Goons in Goonfleet and Avignon Goons in Goonwaffe? Who is the real Goon? This can only be decided by the King of France, or maybe a rich banker . never stop posting...with alts. Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist
Kalrand Charles Ponzi School of Business	Posted - 2010.02.04 17:18:00 - [528] Originally by: Tesal So there are 2 Goon factions now? Rome Goons in Goonfleet and Avignon Goons in Goonwaffe? Who is the real Goon? This can only be decided by the King of France, or maybe a rich banker . Considering one has a 100% tax rate, I think this one won't be hard to decide.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.02.04 17:44:00 - [529] Kalrand - Thanks for another very informative post.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.02.04 18:00:00 - [530] Great popcorn thread with a great final act plot twist I don't think anybody predicted. Though perhaps Yih might care to explain a conundrum. Why not take the credit for the downfall and pitch keeping the loot as the scam. That would have been easy, taking the credit for one of the biggest coups in Eve History was there for the taking. Everybody would have believed you were Karttoon. Yet you declined. That perplexes me. You claimed to be skilled at disinformation, so why not exploit that and muddy the waters, it would certainly distract attention. Kartoon vouched for you privately, that identity would have emerged sooner or later. Instead you get in quick before that information emerges to break the link between Yih and Kartoon. A masterful stroke. Kartton takes a pimps gambit and confirms it. Curious. Perhaps the disentanglement is the disinformation and the true state of affairs is that Yih really is Karttoon. Now, the would be an epic plot twist. A casual observation not mentioned elsewhere. Google tells that Yih is the Klingon word for Tribble, if that's not a SA meme then what is!

Randlak GoonWaffe SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO	Posted - 2010.02.05 06:38:00 - [531] So we have a new alliance.
Zea Aestria	Posted - 2010.02.05 06:53:00 - [532] Originally by: Randlak So we have a new alliance. I guess I'm dumb but I don't get it. Is there any significance to "SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO"?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.05 09:24:00 - [533] Originally by: Zea Aestria Originally by: Randlak So we have a new alliance. I guess I'm dumb but I don't get it. Is there any significance to "SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO"? Yes, it means: "install some damn basic forum software that does not suck". - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking	Posted - 2010.02.05 11:45:00 - [534] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Zea Aestria Originally by: Randlak So we have a new alliance. I guess I'm dumb but I don't get it. Is there any significance to "SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO"? Yes, it means: "install some damn basic forum software that does not suck". Not quite sure what you mean by that Solo Drakban is the goonfleet.com forums admin. He maintains the server and keeps things running, a feat that (despite being associated with ~~internet spaceship games~~) is probably worthy of going on a resume because it's a fairly substantial piece of work. The whole SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO thing is an old-ish meme from one of the subgroups of goonfleet or something, i dunno.
XenosisReaper	Posted - 2010.02.05 12:20:00 - [535] Originally by: corestwo Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Zea Aestria Originally by: Randlak So we have a new alliance. I guess I'm dumb but I don't get it. Is there any significance to "SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO"? Yes, it means: "install some damn basic forum software that does not suck". Not quite sure what you mean by that Solo Drakban is the goonfleet.com forums admin. He maintains the server and keeps things running, a feat that (despite being associated with ~~internet spaceship games~~) is probably worthy of going on a resume because it's a fairly substantial piece of work. The whole SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO thing is an old-ish meme from one of the subgroups of goonfleet or something, i dunno. Confirming that the forum software cannot cope :S also, woop for a goon who can do plot exposition, and not just mindlessly troll, if this turns out to be some kind of supertroll/market manipulation I will cry...with laughter
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.05 13:15:00 - [536] Quote: Not quite sure what you mean by that Have you given a look to the left side of the portraits? - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz


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