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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 69 post(s) |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2048
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 17:49:00 -
[391] - Quote
Syndic Thrass wrote:It's all a Goon conspiracy, Soundwave only smacked your post down because he is favoring the Goonies, isn't that right Jade?
Well I certainly don't think he "smacked down" my post and on the evidence of responses I believe most people see a problem with his reasoning. Lets hope he goes back to the drawing board on this one.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 17:53:00 -
[392] - Quote
Can we flip the discussion around for a moment and ask why, given wardec costs, unlimited corps should be able to effectively wardec whoever they want for free by simply riding on someone else's coattails? I mean, that's what you're offering people, really. You're not saying "Oh woe is me, come defend me from the evil goonies", you're saying "Come wardec goons for free" and letting people avoid the system.
So can you please justify why CCP should consider this okay? |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
136
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:00:00 -
[393] - Quote
I know how badly you want to blob, jade, but consider the ramifications: By having so many free allies for any and all wars, you potentially improve their win/loss ratio with no effort on their part (the war history thing). A small corp gets wardec'd and is looking for allies. They see this mid-large corp that offers to join for a nominal fee, they have a strong win history. They pass over smaller "real" merc corps for this larger one. They turn out to be paper tigers and you lose assets, and the "Real" merc corp not only loses a contract, but also has its reputation stained by association "if this large merc group was useless; the rest of them are probably crap as well."
You seek to destroy the marketplace through removing a key quality check via a poor signal-noise ratio. |
Kuroi Hoshi
Ajo Heavy Industries
5
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:02:00 -
[394] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote: The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created.
But if you're deccing a smaller group then for any fight you engage in you have a higher chance of winning as its less likely for them to have corp mates nearby and available. I'd count that as a valuable advantage. Also 50 million ISK can be a good deal of ISK to a 3 man corp, to a 500 man alliance 50 million ISK is nothing.
I think the total number of pilots on both sides should be taken into account for the wardec and 20 vs 500 and 500 vs 20 should cost the same as 520 people are involved in both cases. Nothing complicated, whichever has the larger pilot base is used as the pilot number for determining the cost of the dec. So if its 500 vs 20 or 20 vs 500, you judge the wardec price off of the 500 pilot number.
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2048
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:03:00 -
[395] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Can we flip the discussion around for a moment and ask why, given wardec costs, unlimited corps should be able to effectively wardec whoever they want for free by simply riding on someone else's coattails? I mean, that's what you're offering people, really. You're not saying "Oh woe is me, come defend me from the evil goonies", you're saying "Come wardec goons for free" and letting people avoid the system. So can you please justify why CCP should consider this okay?
I guess thats consequence of being the aggressor in a wardec.
In the system I'm proposing as long as the size of the defending coalition is smaller than the aggresssor its okay to add people to the war and see the overall size of the conflict increase. It means more fighting, more pvp, more kills and more chaos in hisec. And I'd see it as a natural consequence of a vast nullsec alliance issuing a wardec against a much smaller target.
I mean rl wise (these are always terrible).
Germany invades Poland. UK allies with Poland. German allies wardec UK UK allies wardec German Coalition. German allies wardec UK coalition. German allies **** off US. US wardecs German allies. Soon all the world is at WAR.
Things spiral out of control and end up much bigger than they started.
Its war baby.
Effectively the choice needs to be made between Inferno wardecs being.
A) A griefing tool for large alliances against small alliances while being defended from consequence or counteraction.
or
B) Genuine dynamic evolving war situations that can grow larger and more impressive through player ingenuity.
Option A is rather sadly limiting and definitely doesn't let players play with the sandbox.
What we have in Inferno currently is a superpower wardeccing a small alliance that is being joined by a coalition of small allies and widening the war. Decision is whether that kind of thing is good for eve or not.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Markius TheShed
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
63
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:04:00 -
[396] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Can we flip the discussion around for a moment and ask why, given wardec costs, unlimited corps should be able to effectively wardec whoever they want for free by simply riding on someone else's coattails? I mean, that's what you're offering people, really. You're not saying "Oh woe is me, come defend me from the evil goonies", you're saying "Come wardec goons for free" and letting people avoid the system.
So can you please justify why CCP should consider this okay?
Because this is a evil sandbox and bad things happen.
And this patch is called Inferno because everyone is suppose to be on fire and fighting.
Instead of making it easier to get fights 1.1 is bringing in more rules to stop fights, The Inferno is having cold water poured on it. **Murientor Tribe** Killing Slavers, Ammatar and Nafantar Traitors since YC107 |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2048
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:08:00 -
[397] - Quote
Markius TheShed wrote:corestwo wrote:Can we flip the discussion around for a moment and ask why, given wardec costs, unlimited corps should be able to effectively wardec whoever they want for free by simply riding on someone else's coattails? I mean, that's what you're offering people, really. You're not saying "Oh woe is me, come defend me from the evil goonies", you're saying "Come wardec goons for free" and letting people avoid the system.
So can you please justify why CCP should consider this okay? Because this is a evil sandbox and bad things happen. And this patch is called Inferno because everyone is suppose to be on fire and fighting. Instead of making it easier to get fights 1.1 is bringing in more rules to stop fights, The Inferno is having cold water poured on it.
Inferno 1.1 "guys guys people took us seriously and tried settting the wardec system on fire - quick set off the sprinkler system!"
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
PinkKnife
The Scope Gallente Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:15:00 -
[398] - Quote
Just chiming in that I think the idea of limiting mercs is good. Unlimited allies means you just bring in whoever you want, and in the future marketplace makes little sense.
The idea being to work with limited resources, and thus hire the best mercs you can for your situation and your wallet.
Having it be unlimited means just blanket adding anyone who wants in, and negates any reputation or negotiation a merc corp may have/want to make.
Why would you pay "super awesome merc corp X" 300m Isk to ally with you, when you can get 4 other corporations for free getting the same number of people.
Adding cost, and limitations, means having to make a choice in your allys, the best mercs will command the highest premiums, and the market will decide their worth.
Having unlimited, essentially negates that market ability.
Things that get pink's approval:
-Missile flares -Drake thing (i don't fly them but they look better) -Incursion Rollbacks, These have been DEAD since the nerf. -The amount of dev feedback in this thread. Players appreciate it, despite the outrage some players have.
Things that pink has mixed feelings on: -Minmatar V3'ing. I don't fly them, so I don't really care much, but I do think the core complexion color scheme should be changed. I dislike that they essentially just stole the Khanid scheme, there are plenty of different options available, why make them so similar? -V3 brightening...Just how bright <.< I like the new darker amarr ships despite those who want hello kitty in space brightness. Those Carthum ships make it painful to loose simply because they are so pretty to look at. (given the guardian face plate is strange)
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Markius TheShed
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
64
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:16:00 -
[399] - Quote
Seriously don't any of you who are supporting Goons see the irony in them complaining about it not being fair that people can Dec them for free, When their whole ethos is that eve is unfair?? **Murientor Tribe** Killing Slavers, Ammatar and Nafantar Traitors since YC107 |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:18:00 -
[400] - Quote
I did not ask about "consequences of being a large aggressor." What I asked was why an unlimited number of corps who may also be interested in wardeccing us, but not in the price, should be allowed to so easily circumvent the system. |
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2048
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:20:00 -
[401] - Quote
corestwo wrote:I did not ask about "consequences of being a large aggressor." What I asked was why an unlimited number of corps who may also be interested in wardeccing us, but not in the price, should be allowed to so easily circumvent the system.
As I said thats the consequence of you making wardecs. If you want the hordes of corps to have to pay to wardec you then don't dec people. Thats a strategic decision your leadership can make.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2079
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:22:00 -
[402] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:Jade Constantine wrote: The first stage of the argument is a bit bunkum because it assumes that an entity like SF or Honda Accord would be paying for mercs in any situation on receipt of those wardecs and the answer is no.
Found your problem; its your incessantly self-centered argument. So you and issler won't hire mercs; fine. What about the research alliance that gets dec'd? Or the small industrial group? Will you ignore their needs to defend their towers/assets/members? Take the focus off yourself and consider the typical situation. Allowing for unlimited free allies is a Bad Thing for merc competitiveness because it dilutes the War History as a determinant of quality.
Actually, we will hire mercs if required, we've done it in the past and folks like Noir have been awesome for us. I also hope we can get to a solution that lets us still have a reasonable number of "free" help to even the numbers then pay to add "specialist" to make it even more painful to an aggressor.
I just wanted to say I hope for an outcome that results in a healthy merc market too.
Issler |
Markius TheShed
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
65
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:25:00 -
[403] - Quote
corestwo wrote:I did not ask about "consequences of being a large aggressor." What I asked was why an unlimited number of corps who may also be interested in wardeccing us, but not in the price, should be allowed to so easily circumvent the system.
Why is it fair that your war dec cost is 50m and the small corp you decced would have to pay 500m to dec you? When you have Trillions of isk and they only have a billion.
Like i said Eve isn't fair but when its you it seems that's not allowed **Murientor Tribe** Killing Slavers, Ammatar and Nafantar Traitors since YC107 |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1119
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:30:00 -
[404] - Quote
Should the war dec fee take into account the actual 'real' member count who actually visit/live in high sec?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
108
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:32:00 -
[405] - Quote
Arbitrary price increases and numbers limitations are stupid.
Just give us a real "mercenary marketplace" UI where anyone, aggressor, defender, or even people not currently at war can go to hire mercs for wars. All we need is a list of corps that have flagged themselves as available mercenaries, the ability to look up their war history, and a contract system that is negotiable around price, duration, and war targets.
The current system is more than just a little silly and very un-sandboxy. It gets even sillier with the proposed changes. I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3302
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:32:00 -
[406] - Quote
Not to interrupt Jade's fifteenth page of "**** the mercs only care about me", have the new FW LP store items been listed? |
Syndic Thrass
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:33:00 -
[407] - Quote
Guys, fofo causes lag.
Reguards, Iskies-mommies-toonies-corpies-goonies 0707 m8m8m8 |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 18:34:00 -
[408] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Should the war dec fee take into account the actual 'real' member count who actually visit/live in high sec? Too easy to game.
Mechael wrote:Arbitrary price increases and numbers limitations are stupid.
Just give us a real "mercenary marketplace" UI where anyone, aggressor, defender, or even people not currently at war can go to hire mercs for wars. All we need is a list of corps that have flagged themselves as available mercenaries, the ability to look up their war history, and a contract system that is negotiable around price, duration, and war targets.
The current system is more than just a little silly and very un-sandboxy. It gets even sillier with the proposed changes. War contracts. This is honestly what I thought of when CCP was talking about "mercenary marketplace", not this "hey we'll just offer our services through this here button" thing. |
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
39
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:46:00 -
[409] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Not to interrupt Jade's fifteenth page of "**** the mercs only care about me", have the new FW LP store items been listed?
There's new shirts in the FW Lp stores, that aren't available elsewhere.
might be other items, but those are the only ones I know are new. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2050
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Posted - 2012.06.12 18:49:00 -
[410] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:As I said thats the consequence of you making wardecs. If you want the hordes of corps to have to pay to wardec you then don't dec people. Thats a strategic decision your leadership can make.
Obviously, CCP disagrees.
Not entirely - just adds an administrative overhead. In 1.1 we'll need a "foreign legion" alliance in as our zero cost ally and allow any corp in that wants to dec you for free to join up without rules or restriction.
Will still be effectively unlimited and free but simply rules alliances out of the equation which is a shame.
Shrug really.
The unfortunate thing is the wardec system could be so much more if only some thought had gone into this change.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
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Markius TheShed
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
66
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Posted - 2012.06.12 19:11:00 -
[411] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Not to interrupt Jade's fifteenth page of "**** the mercs only care about me", have the new FW LP store items been listed?
There are 2 new shirts male and female and they cost 2/3 the price of a typhoon fleet issue.
So must be made of unobtanium **Murientor Tribe** Killing Slavers, Ammatar and Nafantar Traitors since YC107 |
Artik Fawkes
Aerospace Dynamics
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 19:34:00 -
[412] - Quote
War mechanics aside, there's an art issue I saw that's pretty pressing. This issue existed with the Fleet Tempest for years, but now it's present with all Tempest variants. I have images here to illustrate. The piece below the bridge is a normals issue: one side is textured, but the other isn't. The gunnery bridge, as it appears to be, is supposed to have a cylindrical piece connecting it to the actual gunnery platform. I love this hull, and would like to see this issue taken care of. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2456
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Posted - 2012.06.12 19:50:00 -
[413] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: As I said thats the consequence of you making wardecs. If you want the hordes of corps to have to pay to wardec you then don't dec people. Thats a strategic decision your leadership can make.
Jade, I think the bottom line is that we are trying to *encourage* war, and encourage the use of mercenary forces to fight wars.
It's all fine and dandy to say "that's just the price you pay as an aggressor" if we are running with a punishment mentality, where the aggressor is the evil-doer and the victim needs protection at all costs. But to approach the game design with this in mind assumes that major alliances like Goonswarm targeting smaller entities for griefing is a commonplace and game-breaking occurrence.
What you've failed to convince me of so far is the scale to which the atrocities you're trying to prevent are occurring. I understand your personal situation, but CCP has to make game play decisions that are good for the majority of players, not that just cater to one group's particular situation.
I think trying to use the game mechanics to discourage a large corp from wardeccing a small corp are about as reasonable as trying to use game mechanics to discourage a large fleet from attacking a smaller gang. It quickly becomes a game of whack-a-mole, as groups that *truly* want to grief will never actually be restricted by the wardec system to begin with, regardless of its implementation. It's akin to obsessing over which lock to install on your front door - a true burglar isn't going to be deterred regardless.
Unlimited, cost-free ally-stacking defeats the entire purpose of creating a *competitive* mercenary market. It allows for pig-pile opportunistic wardecs without creating real incentive to actually participate in the war. I think a lot of us realize that forcing some degree of strategic *choice* will incentivize using the best allies for the job and increase the chance those allies will be used in the first place. I think that is a lot to toss away just to protect against a menace that isn't a well-known, well-documented threat to the universe.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
109
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Posted - 2012.06.12 19:59:00 -
[414] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Unlimited, cost-free ally-stacking defeats the entire purpose of creating a *competitive* mercenary market. It allows for pig-pile opportunistic wardecs without creating real incentive to actually participate in the war. I think a lot of us realize that forcing some degree of strategic *choice* will incentivize using the best allies for the job and increase the chance those allies will be used in the first place.
Wouldn't creating a real mercenary marketplace where anyone could go to hire mercenaries for wars, limited only by a negotiable price (with factors such as duration, number of entities to declare war on, and taking into account a merc corp's war history), be much more conducive to this idea?
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: I think that is a lot to toss away just to protect against a menace that isn't a well-known, well-documented threat to the universe.
You sound like a politician from the Mass Effect series. I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Daneel Trevize
The Scope Gallente Federation
140
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:01:00 -
[415] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Daneel Trevize wrote:You've done something to your protocols again/the Socket Closed connection problem has returned. Can't keep a Sisi client connected for long. Last time it came and went with Sisi updates, so I'm blaming your end. Is it occurring during active gameplay or are you leaving your client alone for periods of time? Trying to be active but it kicks in pretty randomly and often near instantly. If anything like last time, there's not obvious timing or pattern to the thing, I must have tried getting past the first or second login/char selection screens at least many 10s of times over that week or 2, yet sometimes an alt would stay connected for whole minutes while either being used in space, fitting in station, or just docked and left to see. Frankly I don't want to bother see if it's similar this time around, having it start happening again is enough for me to leave it to you guys to resolve for a day or so. Keep up the good work. |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1316
|
Posted - 2012.06.12 20:05:00 -
[416] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:We've been talking to some of the merc corps/alliances and having no meaningful choice in terms of picking a defender basically nullifies their business. What we wanted to do was put in an incentive to look harder at exactly who you ally with, meaning that successful merc corps would be able to market themselves better.
I agree that in an isolated sense, the 4500 vs 9x 500 people is a bit silly, but at the end of the day, making sure you can't just ally a large number of people was something put in to revive the merc business somewhat. We can evaluate that later, but I'd really like to see how people who do this for a living fare with the changes.
Regarding the recurrence, we're definitely looking at that. Well here is A solution ... please critique it if you see a problem. 1. Concord fees per defending ally are only payable if you are in the process of adding an ally that would take the total size of the defending force over the total size of the attacking force. This will make it prohibitively expensive to massively outblob a small wardeccer (as in small scale mercenary actions) while still allowing a massively outmatched defender (ie 9000 vs 100) to add many alliance for free so they can balance the fight. 2. Introduce 2 week contract periods with auto renewal if either side likes the deal (ie its free) You don't like a war don't renew. 3. Consider leaving mutual decs alone because this alone gives the defender chance to assemble a counter force that can make an aggressor NEED to negotiate an end to the war. There is no reason to deny allies to a mutual declaring defender - all this means in essence is that the defender is removing the attackers automatic right to back out of the war while saving them the wardec fee. Its a transactional tactic - it could be left alone (especially with the 2 week contract periods allowing allies to leave). 4. Then if you are feeling adventurerous - improve the system a bit with iteration -> Once the defender starts paying concord fees (because they have added so many allies they now outnumber the attacker) - let the attacker add allies on a 1-1 basis so the war can escalate (both attacked and defender having the chance to up the stakes by shopping for appropriate allies etc.) With this scale of fighting (ie both attack and defender are relatively matched in numbers - EACH allied choice will matter a lot and people will shop for the right mercs on their capability and reputation. I think that solves the problem.
Giant ass Goomswarm / Test decs vs little corps and alliances can be dogpiled and frankly they should be. Its fun, its a game, we play for fun and everyone said they liked that. Small merc decs against similar surgical targets are likely to make the defender think carefully about who they hire because these will attract concord fees and let the attacker escalate if too many are hired. This serves the needs for huge ass mayhem wars for fun. AND serious small merc fights for profit. There is no need to disadvantage one part of the community to protect another. Can you see anything wrong with this solution? I think the biggest issue here is that we're trying to solve different issues. I'm trying to bring the merc trade back into EVE and you're trying to add some measure of fairness into wars, which Isn't really a design philosophy in EVE. Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE and the war dec system wasn't built for that either. I understand that it's annoying when a big alliance war decs you, but that's hardly new to EVE. Big alliances get annoyed with bigger coalitions outnumber them and so on. That's a fact of life in EVE and we're not likely to change that direction anytime soon. The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created. Letting attackers add allies conflicts with the notion that attacking someone is risky. If you decide you want to go to war with someone, the consequence is that he could punch harder than you anticipated. If this is just about stacking up allies, the power of that choice fades away a little bit. Quite honestly, I want to manhug you for this post.
- "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Mira Lynne
State War Academy Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:05:00 -
[417] - Quote
Looking forward to missile Flare, New Drake, and minmatar V3. I have two questions though: -V3ed ships are getting brighter - how much brighter? And why? IMO Current Amarr, Caldari and Gallente ships look great (Havent seen Minmatar V3 so i cant comment) and making them any brighter would reduce the overal effect. -What is the reasoning behind the changes to the Rifter, Stabber and Variations' Sizes? Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread |
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CCP Punkturis
C C P C C P Alliance
2440
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:08:00 -
[418] - Quote
I doubt either side is going to convince the other in an endless forum slapfight; why don't you guys just duel on Sisi and have done with it?
In my mind, it will be something like this @CCP Punkturis | EVE User Interface Programmer | Team Super Friends |
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
263
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:10:00 -
[419] - Quote
why does the new drake have 8 hardpoints on the sides? makes no sense :( |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1248
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Posted - 2012.06.12 20:11:00 -
[420] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: I think that is a lot to toss away just to protect against a menace that isn't a well-known, well-documented threat to the universe. You sound like a politician from the Mass Effect series. Ah yes, 'Reapers'. The immortal fleet of newbie starships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
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