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Drak Min Minmatar unf0rgiving DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.07.04 20:04:00 - [781] Edited by: Drak Min on 04/07/2010 20:06:30 Originally by: Marlona Sky So you basically said when NC goes into a system it is to bring superior firepower but when SC goes into a system it is to cause lag? Would it not be a more fair assumption that everyone tries to bring everything they can and if lag happens they hope the enemy gets it and not themselves? No, what I'm saying is, when someone brags of "setting a trap" and the trap is based on the premise Group A will most likely do Task Blob so when this is initiated Group B does Task Login with the intention of causing Effect Lag, it's intentionally abusing a game design failure for your own benefit which in most mmos i've played typically is referred to as exploiting and results in some sort of punishment. I would go back through and sift through all the ramblings and remarks of this thread to show who was doing the bragging, but seriously, I don't care enough one way or another. The point of my previous point stands, If you wish CCP to remove the ships, then you should be asking for the logs to be presented actually showing the ships were killed before they jumped to their target systems AND asking for perm bans on the individuals who decided to use a known system failure to lag the system out, CCP would have the means of figuring that out pretty simply as how many of WN/Co2/etc (the individuals bragging about their trap) were in system, how many logged into system, how many jumped into system etc. Extra work all around which CCP should be doing anyways, their stance on noninvolvement in fleet fights is absolutely spedtastic thinking as it promotes more and more abuse of failing game mechanics and less and less strategy. And before anyone says it: Everyone should be held to the same standard. CCP should have done this in previous fights that had similiar endings(large force spam logins/etc to force a node failure).
Marlona Sky Caldari D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.07.04 20:26:00 - [782] Originally by: Drak Min No, what I'm saying is, when someone brags of "setting a trap" and the trap is based on the premise Group A will most likely do Task Blob so when this is initiated Group B does Task Login with the intention of causing Effect Lag, it's intentionally abusing a game design failure for your own benefit which in most mmos i've played typically is referred to as exploiting and results in some sort of punishment. I would go back through and sift through all the ramblings and remarks of this thread to show who was doing the bragging, but seriously, I don't care enough one way or another. The point of my previous point stands, If you wish CCP to remove the ships, then you should be asking for the logs to be presented actually showing the ships were killed before they jumped to their target systems AND asking for perm bans on the individuals who decided to use a known system failure to lag the system out, CCP would have the means of figuring that out pretty simply as how many of WN/Co2/etc (the individuals bragging about their trap) were in system, how many logged into system, how many jumped into system etc. Extra work all around which CCP should be doing anyways, their stance on noninvolvement in fleet fights is absolutely spedtastic thinking as it promotes more and more abuse of failing game mechanics and less and less strategy. And before anyone says it: Everyone should be held to the same standard. CCP should have done this in previous fights that had similiar endings(large force spam logins/etc to force a node failure). So you are saying that WN/Co2/etc were logged off not to hide their numbers but so when they logged in it would cause lag?... So if you log in, and it causes lag you should be banned ehh?... Either you are an idiot or trolling. Probably both. I'm sure no matter what the outcome of your theory you will pronounce to the world that you were trolling and self proclaim yourself a winner in some personal competition with yourself. Which is just sad. Please take your wild theories elsewhere. This is COAD, where nothing but truth and solid facts are told in all threads.
Caldrion Dosto Gallente Svea Rike Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.07.05 05:51:00 - [783] This is very easy tbh i can¦t imagine how CCP GM¦s could make a wrong turn. If you want the result of the fight to stand and you didn¦t "giveback" or respawn any capitalships then remove the duplicated ships from the game. If logs shows them as dead KILL THEM. And seriously this would be best in the long run for everyone, since this is bound to happen again sooner or later and i would think it would make the game suck if you respawn all capitalship loses in fights, then whats the point?
FlameGlow Caldari Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.05 06:59:00 - [784] Originally by: Caldrion Dosto This is very easy tbh i can¦t imagine how CCP GM¦s could make a wrong turn. If you want the result of the fight to stand and you didn¦t "giveback" or respawn any capitalships then remove the duplicated ships from the game. If logs shows them as dead KILL THEM. And seriously this would be best in the long run for everyone, since this is bound to happen again sooner or later and i would think it would make the game suck if you respawn all capitalship loses in fights, then whats the point? Originally by: GM Grimmi Some ships were destroyed during the engagement, yet they also managed to jump to safety. ... Our server-side logs represent both of the aforementioned circumstances apparently the logs show both that they jumped out and that they died, yup, the server works fine
Ed Rush Gallente Erasers inc. Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.07.05 07:14:00 - [785] I'd say, go book a ticket to the next eve fanfest and deliver your feedback in physical form. in a way which has an impact in it.
Lord TGR Minmatar Bat Country Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.05 07:20:00 - [786] Or have all the major factions wardec eachother and go back and forth between the major trade hubs and agent systems and do 100v100 or 200v200 fights, just to bring the nice features of lag/gridload/session change to the general public so they know what to demand fixed. Nah, what am I thinking? Let's go back to the regular scheduled ****ing about whose ships are still alive, or got killed, or who should be banned for causing* lag, because that's so much more productive.
Marlona Sky Caldari D00M. RED.OverLord	Posted - 2010.07.05 07:33:00 - [787] Originally by: Lord TGR Or have all the major factions wardec eachother and go back and forth between the major trade hubs and agent systems and do 100v100 or 200v200 fights, just to bring the nice features of lag/gridload/session change to the general public so they know what to demand fixed. xing up to bring lag to all major mission hubs!
David Goodwill Caldari DarkStar 1 Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.05 07:55:00 - [788] Originally by: Caldrion Dosto This is very easy tbh i can¦t imagine how CCP GM¦s could make a wrong turn. If you want the result of the fight to stand and you didn¦t "giveback" or respawn any capitalships then remove the duplicated ships from the game. If logs shows them as dead KILL THEM. And seriously this would be best in the long run for everyone, since this is bound to happen again sooner or later and i would think it would make the game suck if you respawn all capitalship loses in fights, then whats the point? Tbh, I think the problem is that the logs show them as both alive in one system and dead in another. They are not so much ghost ships, as it seems the server code is written so that a ship exists in one system before it is deleted in another. However if a node dies or lags out before the command to delete the ships reaches them and they get destroyed, then they still exist in the system they jump to as that is how the code was written, and was presumably how the pilots were able to jump into a system, warp to a pos, take a screenshot and log off, while in the other system the code was attempting to delete the ships out of the system yet due to node death wasn't able to get there in time before they were destroyed. I expect that a little later on, after the node was working again, the code finally made it back to the pilots that the ship with the same ID as theirs was destroyed and hence removed. However once downtime hit and the server does its daily maintenance of DB cleanup and other SQL fluff, it found the ships alive in the system they were jumped to and put them back in the system. (This is however only a guess as how their code is written, as I haven't actually seen it. Only one of their SQL devs could tell you for sure, and they won't) I would just let CCP do their job in this case. Any post by SC or NC is going to be bias in some way anyway, there are hardly any neutral observers, everyone has an agenda, so these posts should be discounted in any informed decision. Whatever they do, CCP is going to **** off one half of the debate. There will be no winners here. As far as I can see it both sides have a valid claim that the ships should be destroyed / alive. Regardless i'm loving the tears in this thread. Keep em going! :twisted:
Ed Rush Gallente Erasers inc. Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.07.05 08:51:00 - [789] Edited by: Ed Rush on 05/07/2010 08:55:41 why not use SISI as "battlegrounds" ? It'd be laggy too.. and the server might crash and probably many players would die due to blackscreen too.... but hey thats normal. Like have the major power lego blocks sit on the same poker table and wage on moons and stuff. And then the SISI battle winner gets the stuff handed over on TQ peacefully. Imagine how CCP's economists would cry tears for isk not being drained from ingame economy.
Lord TGR Minmatar Bat Country Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.05 13:38:00 - [790] I just thought of the subname for dominion/tyrannis: The Wulfpax Age.

Imutep Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.05 13:42:00 - [791] short memories ftw? The sequence of events went like this (after everything + sink jumped in) NC titans warped in and were bubbled, SC fleet start engaging. As more SC caps dropped in titans in trouble were ordered to jump out as soon as the were able to ie no tackle. Titan jumped out to beacon system. Titan was SEEN in jump out system. Pilots view was a lagged 6nj and ghost titan but was NO LONGER being engaged as was also showing as jumped out to hostiles who has DISENGAGED. Pilot logs off as ship is showing in jump out system. Pilot tries to log back and is reported on TS as reappearing in 6NJ again. Hostiles tackle and resume takedown. IMHO neither side is wrong or right, the titan losses were not legit but then the way they reappeared isn't either, its just crappy game mechanics and the only winner is CCP's pockets as we whine and whine about crappy this and that but still pay our money every month.
Stygian Knight Minmatar Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.05 14:06:00 - [792] Why does this thread still exists? Haven't you learn anything yet ? Move on people, move on...
Damned Devil Minmatar Quasar Buccaneers	Posted - 2010.07.05 15:13:00 - [793] Originally by: Imutep short memories ftw? The sequence of events went like this (after everything + sink jumped in) NC titans warped in and were bubbled, Russian fleet start engaging. As more Russian caps dropped in titans in trouble were ordered to jump out as soon as the were able to ie no tackle. Titan jumped out to beacon system. Titan was SEEN in jump out system. Pilots view was a lagged 6nj and ghost titan but was NO LONGER being engaged as was also showing as jumped out to hostiles who has DISENGAGED. Pilot logs off as ship is showing in jump out system. Pilot tries to log back and is reported on TS as reappearing in 6NJ again. Hostiles tackle and resume takedown. IMHO neither side is wrong or right, the titan losses were not legit but then the way they reappeared isn't either, its just crappy game mechanics and the only winner is CCP's pockets as we whine and whine about crappy this and that but still pay our money every month. Fixed for you.
Avon Caldari Versatech Co. Blade.	Posted - 2010.07.05 17:34:00 - [794] Originally by: Imutep short memories ftw? The sequence of events went like this (after everything + sink jumped in) NC titans warped in and were bubbled, SC fleet start engaging. As more SC caps dropped in titans in trouble were ordered to jump out as soon as the were able to ie no tackle. Titan jumped out to beacon system. Titan was SEEN in jump out system. Pilots view was a lagged 6nj and ghost titan but was NO LONGER being engaged as was also showing as jumped out to hostiles who has DISENGAGED. Pilot logs off as ship is showing in jump out system. Pilot tries to log back and is reported on TS as reappearing in 6NJ again. Hostiles tackle and resume takedown. IMHO neither side is wrong or right, the titan losses were not legit but then the way they reappeared isn't either, its just crappy game mechanics and the only winner is CCP's pockets as we whine and whine about crappy this and that but still pay our money every month. Just curious, but are there screenshots of the titans jumped out in safe systems, and if so do the backgrounds match the correct system? I ask because I remember quite a while back there were problems with jump-desyncs, and the background nebula was the best indication of what system you were actually in, regardless what the system information said at the top left of the screen. (I am genuinely interested, not trying to troll. Just want to know if this is the return of an old bug - because if it is it may be easier to squish). Signature removed, please only use English on the forums. Zymurgist Okay sweet-cheeks xxx. Avon
hamon konakh Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.07.05 18:12:00 - [795] A lot of idiots in this tread who werent even in the fight. NC got their supers back, due to game mechanics being fucked. SC haters still gonna hate, why are you *****s even posting in this thread? It's not like a Dev spawing T2 BPO's (t20). Btw, the delicious tears from the SC makes me feel pretty good. Now HTFU and close this stupid thread.
zljuka Caldari Dark Voodoo Cult Red Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.06 09:25:00 - [796] I just wonder if eve has already reached its peak of population and servers are out of resources. Eve is a sandbox, and the more people play eve, sandbox becomes not only bigger but more complex. Taken basically when you have two elements, you can make one link between them. If you have three elements you can link them in three ways, four elements make already six links. So every new element, for example every new active player, not simply adds but multiplies the load on server. And at some moment sandbox becomes so complex that no server is able to deal with it. Practically a 100x100 battle loads server not ten times as 10x10 fight does, but fifty or even hundred times as much. So the question is if eve has already reached it's top of population that can't be increased adding new or improving existent servers? Or is it that CCP is so busy with dust and new expansions that they don't pay attention to current issues?
Tyby Gallente KANTAI HIKAGE White Noise.	Posted - 2010.07.06 10:42:00 - [797] Edited by: Tyby on 06/07/2010 10:44:08 Edited by: Tyby on 06/07/2010 10:43:39 Originally by: hamon konakh NC got their supers back, due to game mechanics being fucked. like everyone else who lost a supercap due to fcked game mechanics*, i may ad. right?
Crimsons Storm Amarr Born-2-Kill Waterboard	Posted - 2010.07.06 11:10:00 - [798] CCP being greedy and marketing Eve to the masses without an obvious plan to handle in increase in the general population and hiding behind new "look at me" features and free bait ships to distract everyone from the reality that in the past 6 years this game has gorne from good... to great... to a festering pile of c_r_@_p. whinge much you say...obviously not enough i say. How about investing some time into fixing the game instead of adding moar crap to the lag pile... Back on topic. Standard .... << is all i have to say RE cap reimbursements AND this thread in general
Snot Shot Minmatar Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.06 13:12:00 - [799] The Titans were bubbled and would never have been able to jump out. They died and were reimbursed by CCP with one even being taken from a hostile pilot that boarded it after DT.....thought they don't intervene... Funny how this was the last big fleet fight anyone has had. I guess putting your Caps on the line against the NC just means you take all the risk since, if you win, NC just gets all their ships back anyways... CCP you might want to pull your head out of the sand on this one since it's a pivotal point in the games history. Seems that aside from the usual PL supercap ganks, no one cares to light a cyno for a large fleet fight anymore... "Dragon Fleet!!........dock up, it's not worth it.."... Just Sayin.... Dr. Shot BAM!! HEAD SHOT!!!
Menellaix Gallente The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.07.06 14:39:00 - [800] Originally by: GM Grimmi The underlying issue has been examined and improvements implemented that should prevent similar situations in the future. Define improvements? I've seen nothing in the Sisi patch logs. Maybe... a) When jump command is issued, the location system of the object is updated in database before the destination system is signalled? - or - b) Client disconnect cancels all pending operations, including jump? - or - c) Something else?

Nemtar Nataal Caldari Demonic Retribution	Posted - 2010.07.06 16:53:00 - [801] Originally by: David Goodwill Originally by: Caldrion Dosto This is very easy tbh i can¦t imagine how CCP GM¦s could make a wrong turn. If you want the result of the fight to stand and you didn¦t "giveback" or respawn any capitalships then remove the duplicated ships from the game. If logs shows them as dead KILL THEM. And seriously this would be best in the long run for everyone, since this is bound to happen again sooner or later and i would think it would make the game suck if you respawn all capitalship loses in fights, then whats the point? Tbh, I think the problem is that the logs show them as both alive in one system and dead in another. They are not so much ghost ships, as it seems the server code is written so that a ship exists in one system before it is deleted in another. However if a node dies or lags out before the command to delete the ships reaches them and they get destroyed, then they still exist in the system they jump to as that is how the code was written, and was presumably how the pilots were able to jump into a system, warp to a pos, take a screenshot and log off, while in the other system the code was attempting to delete the ships out of the system yet due to node death wasn't able to get there in time before they were destroyed. I expect that a little later on, after the node was working again, the code finally made it back to the pilots that the ship with the same ID as theirs was destroyed and hence removed. However once downtime hit and the server does its daily maintenance of DB cleanup and other SQL fluff, it found the ships alive in the system they were jumped to and put them back in the system. (This is however only a guess as how their code is written, as I haven't actually seen it. Only one of their SQL devs could tell you for sure, and they won't) I would just let CCP do their job in this case. Any post by SC or NC is going to be bias in some way anyway, there are hardly any neutral observers, everyone has an agenda, so these posts should be discounted in any informed decision. Whatever they do, CCP is going to **** off one half of the debate. There will be no winners here. As far as I can see it both sides have a valid claim that the ships should be destroyed / alive. Regardless i'm loving the tears in this thread. Keep em going! :twisted: None of my usual GS hate comments here. You have really got the problem nailed here, i do work in software engineering but i have never worked with a system remotely as complex as this one - But any ship only have one instance in this game then basically it can only be in one place at any one given point in time. So some where some one made an error. Honestly i would have been bether if the ships had been removed in both systems rathen then them bieng precent in both systems.
HarrietMiers Minmatar I'M ON A BOAT	Posted - 2010.07.07 04:02:00 - [802] Originally by: Snot Shot "Dragon Fleet!!........dock up, it's not worth it.."... Post with your main or gtfo.
Metal Dude Gallente Destructive Influence IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.10 00:21:00 - [803] Originally by: GM Grimmi During the fleet-battle in 6NJ8-V on June 16th server performance was adversely affected by load issues. One of the resulting problems was the revival of ships that had been killed during the fight, including a few super-capitals. We want to clarify that this was due to database issues, which are still under investigation û the ships were NOT returned by GameMasters. This matter is still being investigated and further information will be forthcoming when available. So when are you going to give us a **ing update on this? Or is this another T20 ** that CCP will just sweep under the rug? Because it sure smells like it from this end ffs. What will it take to get answers that you said will be forthcoming? The truth will set you free
Virene Mene Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2010.07.10 02:50:00 - [804] Originally by: Metal Dude So when are you going to give us a **ing update on this? Or is this another T20 ** that CCP will just sweep under the rug? Because it sure smells like it from this end ffs. What will it take to get answers that you said will be forthcoming? do you seriously expect a reply?
Metal Dude Gallente Destructive Influence IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.10 03:42:00 - [805] Originally by: Virene Mene do you seriously expect a reply? Originally by: GM Grimmi further information will be forthcoming when available. The truth will set you free
Captain Thunk Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:19:00 - [806] Originally by: Metal Dude So when are you going to give us a **ing update on this? Or is this another T20 ** that CCP will just sweep under the rug? Because it sure smells like it from this end ffs. What will it take to get answers that you said will be forthcoming? Are you saying the T20 incident was swept under the rug and those that were aware of what was going on and complicit were not punished?
SavageBastard Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.07.10 05:49:00 - [807] Originally by: Metal Dude Originally by: GM Grimmi During the fleet-battle in 6NJ8-V on June 16th server performance was adversely affected by load issues. One of the resulting problems was the revival of ships that had been killed during the fight, including a few super-capitals. We want to clarify that this was due to database issues, which are still under investigation û the ships were NOT returned by GameMasters. This matter is still being investigated and further information will be forthcoming when available. So when are you going to give us a **ing update on this? Or is this another T20 ** that CCP will just sweep under the rug? Because it sure smells like it from this end ffs. What will it take to get answers that you said will be forthcoming? Aren't you in the wrong alliance to be all mad about T20?


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