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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Orb Lati
Minmatar
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.14 23:23:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Orb Lati on 14/10/2010 23:24:47
Is there any possibility that facial jewellery/hardware might be implemented.
Specifically thinking about in game cybernetic implants.
In the case of eyes (perception implant?).
Possibly sub-dermal scarring?
Perhaps some bald options where you can skull panels. or "ghost in the shell" reminiscent access/information ports.
Also since these are pod pilots, are there any physical manifestations that can be expressed on their bodies. To borrow from the matrix are there any nutrient implants, that might be seen if somebody wears a tee shirt/halter top?
Also are not Amarrian pilots more likely to have expressed cybernetics as per their back story.
Are not rich non pod pilots suppose to be heavily modified as they cling to life.
I would imagine the desire to have expressed modification on a capsule pilot reminiscent of their religious/state leaders might be pretty strong.
Robotic hand anybody?
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Soden Rah
Gallente
Rapier Industry and Technology
Second Sun Rising
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Posted - 2010.10.15 00:08:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Orb Lati
Edited by: Orb Lati on 14/10/2010 23:24:47
Is there any possibility that facial jewellery/hardware might be implemented.
Specifically thinking about in game cybernetic implants.......
Damn the Bottom left eye is sexy, where's it from?.
And again, second desire for implants being visible (at least as an option) not looking to go full borg here but just something to show that our pod pilots might not be fully human anymore. maybe some implants only bechome visible when activated/used. ie: for eyes you might have enhanced vision implants/augmented reality wich make your eye's look funky when activated. other options might include digital tattos, that are invisible most of the time but can apear/light up (either because the pilot chooses or perhaps activated by some remote device. Used as a method of identifying secret agents or tribe/clan members that kind of thing.) also could be an in game thing that makeing implants invisible costs more perhaps, (fixable later at a cosmetics salon, when incana gets going)
also as a side thought, I had an idea the other day looking at the scarring options. It would be really cool if you could have designer tatoos. so you could have diferent kinds, like bullet wound, laser graze, burn knife wound... ect. and select wether it was a graze or full hit, whereth there was just an entrance or and entrance and exit wound. then you select the top and bottom of the scar (knife slash, bottle gouge) or th entrance and exit points in the avatar, and then the wound is generated. (with options for scar age, and how much repair work was done on it that kind of thing)
From a roleplay perspective, while pod pilots might be able to have all physical imperfections fixed surgically, they might carry battle scars by choice, out of pride, or to remind them of some past mistake and what it cost. Not deep enough to affect their performance or reduce sensitivity (nerve's undernieth fully regenerated) but visible reminders or suverneirs of past battles.
from a roleplay perspective it could be fun comming up wih the stories of how they came about, and maybe someday, when incarna comes around, youl go back to the quarters of some goodlooking fleet admiral, you'l take off your shirt, she'll gasp, and ask where you got that, and you'll tell her, then she'll tell you she has one to beat it... yeah ok im a lethal weapon fan but you get the idea ;-)
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Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.15 02:09:00 -
[63]
Good work so far
Great to see many of the things we mentioned being worked on.
HAIR FEMALES (vherokior)
- hair 7th on the right (twin dreads down the front, look like lekku) that was going into the breasts, you've done something to fix that which is good. However if I set it to that hair style then go back to the sculpting I can make the breasts go through the hair again (though I can't slide breast size smoothly it jumps from max size to 'size that fits').
- Pony tails and hair bands: For some of the ponytails they have a hairband that shares a similar but slightly different colour to the hair (I think they where the same last time?) which is nice, though being able to select collour of both would be nicer (maybe too hard). Some other pony tail styles (8 & 9 on the left) have hair bands that seem to be made out of hair, they share exact same colour and texture as the hair. This may be some sort of hair style where you use the hair to tie itself in a ponytail, if it is please teach me the trick to this, otherwise could use some fixing.
The clip in the back of the hair in the style 3rd to the right, follows the colour of the hair a bit too much. Should be more like the bands in style 10th to the left, especially noticeable with colours like bright orange.
will come with more later
great work so far, keep it up
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God is an afk cloaker |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.10.15 03:42:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 15/10/2010 03:44:13
This is driving me crazy.
A shirt is not a latex suit. For low-cut shirts, please have the fabric stretch between the cleavage so I can see into the shirt. For normal shirts have there be a space between the shirt and the skin for full coverage shirts. Do not have it stick to their bodies. That is unrealistic.
Please make this happen! It'd be one of the first games where I'd be pleased to say clothes look realistic.
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Lucien Tripoux
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Posted - 2010.10.15 04:37:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Lucien Tripoux on 15/10/2010 04:44:44
Quote:
Damn the Bottom left eye is sexy, where's it from?.
I think it's from the Deus-ex 3 trailer.... You'll find it here, around the 0:52.
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Lojak 2501
Three Sails
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Posted - 2010.10.15 05:03:00 -
[66]
so far i love the new chars (female jin mei is damn sexy) but are there plans for additional clothes and assesories? and for later dates is the portrait swap (or full char swap as this case may be) still going to be implemented? and just cuz im a nosy bastard when do we get to fool around the full set of options for char creation?
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Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2010.10.15 07:23:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Jdestars on 15/10/2010 07:27:46
Test with old & new charactere : no major matter during the process except final rending in charactere sheet dont worked
-some hazardous response of wheel selection & render ( seem to be a delay)
-add more hair capabilitie like long hair style, more color for exemple
-add more modification of Eyebrow
-add more modification in body (separate muscule top & bottow for exemple)
-add more cloth too for women ( dont like women in pants ;) )
-add option for revamp race of old charactere create before the release of "new" race ( i dont like the base body of gallente not enough sexy ;) )
CG ( GTX 470) Shader 3.0 support ) & maximun option except : no used cache
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Nicholas Barker
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.15 11:44:00 -
[68]
Everybody starts with the same damn face, there's not randomization button.
It should start with a random one, and then a button to make it random again.
Otherwise everybody going to look exactly the same other than hair, beards, eyes, and clothes.
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0800-LAG-A-NODE
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Trask Galvin
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Posted - 2010.10.15 11:59:00 -
[69]
I was using high graphics.
Very important (IMHO), you need more clothing options. It appears there is one "outfit" per race, and more would add a LOT of value for many players. For Amarrains, I believe you need a robe/hood combo since this appears to be quite popular. If this is planned, I apologize, didn't see it listed.
I also believe more portriat backgrounds are needed. Not the massive selection available in the "old" system, but more than what is available now.
Overall impression: This isn't really going to be an improvement and will probably upset a large number of people who were perfectly happy with their old picture. Myself included. 
Trask Galvin |
Interscene
The Maverick Navy
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Posted - 2010.10.15 12:18:00 -
[70]
On Caldari Deteis female, adding shoes changes the haircolour, followed by client crash shortly after when trying to change hair.
I had been working my way down the list, added the shoes first to break routine, hair instantly changed to a black shade instead of a blonde. All shades of hair were then black-tinted and highlighted. Then client crashed.
Am I supposed to submit bug-reports in addition to posting in this thread (and if so, where?) or does this thread super-cede the BR procees? I have a few screenshots.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
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Posted - 2010.10.15 12:31:00 -
[71]
Verhokior female eyes are still problematically shaped. They too closed and look extremely expressionless, like the character is always almost sleeping.
Please give us a handle to control a bit the general shape of the eyes. That is FAR more important than the type of inner eye for the recognition of a face. The main trait the brain uses to annalyse a face are the eyes shapes. You cannot achieve a system with good and different characters without that.
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Jenny Hawk
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.10.15 12:36:00 -
[72]
I have the feeling the new version is even less stable, I had a few heavy crashes while selecting hair.
GF 9600GT, win XP SP3
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Katy Ling
Gallente
Crimnson Concept Flame
Care Factor
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Posted - 2010.10.15 13:22:00 -
[73]
WOwwwww .... first of all, trying to remake the character under low texture settings, does not give eyes to toon, then, reseating from low to high textures plus shader, crashes the sisi client.
loging back and pressing escape in creation menu, wants to apply shader every time we press ESC .... and the toon becomes unworkable ...
i want to click in the interaction well, and i keep circling the toon , i'm not happy :(
there's a silly well that circles hair stiles, it's not intuitive at first, as there's some dashes that apply different hair stile, sometimes it stops in the middle others doesn't, sometimes there's a second weel with different colour applications, other times it disappears ... it's confusing, not intuitive, and i'm not happy ... the circle should work, but isn't working properly .. have you guys thought about a sidebar with different drawings from the respective hair stile ?
and what about making the second weal colours actually match ? they don't allways match exactly :(
every time i switch hair style, the colour reset, it's giving me extra work remaking it :(
eyebrows are not good :( ... not available, except for the last ones, that are horrible :(
Skin - what ? no different skin tones ?
scarring - well, that one scared the heck out of me ... there's a slider and it's not that obvious where is max and minimum ... can't you put a "+" on one side and a "-" on the other side ? for dumb people :)
and why is there 2 sliders there !?
Eye shadow - in high texture, it's actually looking cool, i can't decide which one to use ... that's the sort of feature people should be able to change constantly.
Blush - only one has colour palette ... the others don't have.
Lipstick - oh gosh ... there's 1 point with 3 colours, red, blue and green (what about yellow and others ?) toggling the colour strength actually helps.
moar different cloths
and every time i quit client, it crashes :(
still has some work to go :)
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Cheneis Riemswyth
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Posted - 2010.10.15 13:35:00 -
[74]
Everyone seems to be picking on colors and selection. I think its pretty good for what's there so far. (I'm Ass/u/me'ing its still rather bare bones).
The one thing I was having some issues with is the facial posing for the final picture. At first I was trying to get a "shifty" look with eyes and grin(see current pic), but failing that even a normal smile was extremely frustrating. Trying to move part of the face and instead ending up turning the whole head. When I did manage to grab the part I wanted, I couldn't seem to move past a small smirk or oddly open mouth.
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Shingly
Amarr
League of War
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Posted - 2010.10.15 13:43:00 -
[75]
Aight heres the thing. I'm a guy with ****. But we return on this few lines later.
The general experience gives feeling that this is Alpha not even Beta ready. All issues are here previously stated. Now suggestions...
You have add'ed option where you can make your self either FAT or Slim. This is fine. But for go sake guys please add option whit what I can make Boob's that my toon wouldn't be flat chested boy with long hair. And please do not delete Gallentian clothes. You know what I mean... Yes you do.
But great job in generally. Just hoped to see much more complex shaping options. But I guess this way is better with presets.
Play as it would be your last day in EVE |
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2010.10.15 13:55:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Stitcher on 15/10/2010 14:04:05
Just going to repeat the call for body hair here.
For somebody this manly and hirsute to have totally hairless arms seems wrong somehow.
Also, the "ageing" slider should add grey hairs.... or at least give us greying hair colour options that are somewhere between "dyed/young hair" and "VENERABLE WISE OLD MOUNTAIN MAN"
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Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Qorthas
Caldari
Eternal Profiteers
Galactic Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.15 14:32:00 -
[77]
Good to see an update! However, the new update hasn't improved the usability, only added more content.
In itself, that's a good thing of course (great to see new "normal" hairstyles. thanks!), and maybe there hasn't been time to change other things, but the dials and sculpting are as much in need of improvement as ever.
Here's what i (still) think needs improvement:
Sculpting boundaries
It would be great to have an overview of how "far" you could sculpt, in the different areas. In the old CC, you had an overview of your modeling capabilities. You could see how far you could go, and how much you had moved the sliders. You had an overview of what you were doing. I'd like this in the new CC as well.
Clearer indications of what you can sculpt
Like others have said, and showed, it needs to be clear what you can actually sculpt in the character, instead of having to mouse-over each part to reveal them.
Better visibility when sculpting
It's annoying that the blue "net" stays on top of the area you can sculpt, even when you're in the process of sculpting. I'd like to see what I'm doing.
Better dials
It would be a much better solution if the dials had numbers, instead of simple "notches". You could quickly go to the hairstyle you want, remembering its number, instead of trying to remember where the notch was in relation to the red dot.
This is a thing that really bothers me. You have no clue what's what. It's just a bunch of similar lines in the dial.
!!!Forward/backward buttons on dials!!!
Instead of having to pull the damn dial, it would be great if you could just hold the mouse still, while hovering a "next" button, on top of the dial (for example). This way you wouldn't have to change focus all the time - look at character, look at dial to move properly, succeed in moving it one notch at a time, look back at character, repeat. It's extremely annoying.
To emphasize my points, I'm going to quote someone from the previous thread. The complaints are very similar, so please consider them strongly.
Originally by: Ciarente
1) I would really like some sort of indicator of how far off 'baseline' you've moved a feature. At the moment it's hard to tell exactly what you've done, when sculpting, especially since some of the results are a bit counter-intuitive (making eyes larger by pulling them upwards, for example)
(...)
3) The expressions in the portrait-taker are difficult to manipulate and counter-intuitive. Presets or else a slider to indicate what you've moved and how much would help. Also, they seem to be only symmetrical? It would be really great if we could make a picture of our character winking or raising a single eyebrow.
4) The dials to chose between options are incredibly frustrating.
5) The skin customization - it would be great to have a variation that is between 'perfect' and 'terrible acne scars'.
-Better overview of sculpting
-Asymmetrical face expressions (didn't write that myself, but good point)
-Better dials
-Better scaring options. (The old CC had this. it wasn't only perfect skin, or terrible acne scars. you could choose between lots of 'single' scars.)
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Qorthas
Caldari
Eternal Profiteers
Galactic Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.15 14:36:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Shingly
Aight heres the thing. I'm a guy with ****. But we return on this few lines later.
The general experience gives feeling that this is Alpha not even Beta ready. All issues are here previously stated. Now suggestions...
You have add'ed option where you can make your self either FAT or Slim. This is fine. But for go sake guys please add option whit what I can make Boob's that my toon wouldn't be flat chested boy with long hair. And please do not delete Gallentian clothes. You know what I mean... Yes you do.
But great job in generally. Just hoped to see much more complex shaping options. But I guess this way is better with presets.
I don't get why people keep complaining about this. You CAN make your boobs bigger. simply go to sculpting - body - and drag the boobs around. It's not easy making them look big and nice though. It's a bit weird...
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Aline Kia
Caldari
FireStar Inc
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.15 15:19:00 -
[79]
Not sure if this was listed in the know bugs but the client crashes when a screen shot is taken in windowed mode.
Happened twice once when i was trying to take pictures of remakes of both my mains.
I have dual monitor set up on one graphics card; nVidia GeForce GTS 250.
Windows 7 (64-bit)
3.07GHz Intel i3
4.00 GB Ram
GeForce GTS 250
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Saman Ayan
Minmatar
Lazy.
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Posted - 2010.10.15 16:11:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Qorthas
!!!Forward/backward buttons on dials!!!
Instead of having to pull the damn dial, it would be great if you could just hold the mouse still, while hovering a "next" button, on top of the dial (for example). This way you wouldn't have to change focus all the time - look at character, look at dial to move properly, succeed in moving it one notch at a time, look back at character, repeat. It's extremely annoying.
While I do agree with your other suggestions (we really do need a way to find specific options easily!), with a dial you can click on any notch and it will rotate to that notch, so you do not have to drag the dial to choose the different options. It's not obvious, though.
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Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
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Posted - 2010.10.15 17:16:00 -
[81]
1) Chest hair on males. Arm and leg and back hair.
2) Stubble instead of a well-trimmed beard.
3) "Normal guy" clothing. After spending three years in a capsule filled with goo, I want to put on a T-shirt with a ketchup stain and some comfortable jeans.
...
Join M. Corp, see the Galaxy |
Kethot
Ordo Drakonis
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.10.15 17:40:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
1) Chest hair on males. Arm and leg and back hair.
2) Stubble instead of a well-trimmed beard.
3) "Normal guy" clothing. After spending three years in a capsule filled with goo, I want to put on a T-shirt with a ketchup stain and some comfortable jeans.
Signed. Please give us more reality. There are some really fantastic options during character modeling, but please make men look like men.
Body hair and all.
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Aline Kia
Caldari
FireStar Inc
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.15 17:57:00 -
[83]
/signed
Body hair is a must!
Different levels of thickness for all hair type (Body/head/facial for guys and girlies) may help when trying to fine tune the avatars for age... rather than just having to rely on the over wrinklyness option on the age tab. To make the avatars older it seems to be a hard combination of the age dial and the scar dial. The first few scar levels simple to add a nice layer of texture to the face to offset the baby face smooth default.
Apologies can't post my playing around results as per my previous post as i the client crashed both times.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor Elite
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Posted - 2010.10.15 18:23:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 15/10/2010 18:24:22
Seriously? Still No Tattoos? 
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amarian arch
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Posted - 2010.10.15 19:03:00 -
[85]
better scars are needed. Everyone with them looks like they have pockmarked Edward James Olmos skin or Tommy Lee Jones skin.
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Dante Marcellus
Minmatar
Nation of Muppets
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Posted - 2010.10.15 19:15:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Dante Marcellus on 15/10/2010 19:16:00
My character remade, although I miss the tattoos, it is pretty awesome:
<<<<
PaxCorpus
This wasn't the road home --
This was a road littered with questions that
would inevitably lead to an answer. |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.10.15 20:40:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Mynxee on 15/10/2010 20:54:44
Edited by: Mynxee on 15/10/2010 20:47:43
The selector wheel approach I just messed around with on SiSI is annoyingly cumbersome since it forces me to look at every single option before making a choice--a ridiculous amount of effort considering that odds are that only a couple of options will be of interest.
Besides that, from a development perspective there are some potential concerns with the wheel control approach:
-- It would seem to make it difficult to add more choices later--or impose a limit on the maximum number of choices you could add. I mean, there is only so much room for notches before it becomes challenging to click accurately on them (especially for users running at ultra high resolutions).
-- You might believe you're going to limit the number of choices now and thus avoid the problem mentioned above, but that kind of thinking is risky in the long run. UI design best practices suggest that planning for extensibility in a way that minimizes future level of effort to implement more choices is a good idea.
I sincerely hope that Incarna is not delivered with the same cumbersome wheel controls as I see now. They make me work far harder than is necessary for what is essentially a one-time task. Don't try to turn avatar creation into some kind of mini-game with clever controls. Keep it simple and straightforward, Provide users with the information and visual cues they need to make prompt decisions with a minimum of fuss. THAT is good UI design. A scrollable list of thumbnails would be a far better approach than the mystery wheels being used right now.
Speaking as a woman player, if you're looking to attract more women to EVE with Incarna and full body avatars are one important element of that, then don't make the character creation process so fiddly. Otherwise you risk alienating that potential audience of new subscribers before they even get a chance to experience the game.
I mean...look at online shopping sites. There are certain patterns they all follow that people get used to. As soon as you come to a site that deviates too much from that and makes it really hard to complete a simple task, eyes glaze over and credit card goes elsewhere. There's a lesson in that observation for the avatar creation screen.
Life In Low Sec |
Qorthas
Caldari
Eternal Profiteers
Galactic Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.15 20:51:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Saman Ayan
Originally by: Qorthas
!!!Forward/backward buttons on dials!!!
Instead of having to pull the damn dial, it would be great if you could just hold the mouse still, while hovering a "next" button, on top of the dial (for example). This way you wouldn't have to change focus all the time - look at character, look at dial to move properly, succeed in moving it one notch at a time, look back at character, repeat. It's extremely annoying.
While I do agree with your other suggestions (we really do need a way to find specific options easily!), with a dial you can click on any notch and it will rotate to that notch, so you do not have to drag the dial to choose the different options. It's not obvious, though.
cool, didn't know that. but that doesn't really change my unhappiness with the wheel. i want single clicks, without moving the mouse, to move on in the selection - as with a 'next' button.
and as you practically said yourself, knowing what identical notches means, isn't the greatest hobby ever cerated. sorry to tell you CCP.
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Abyss Wyrm
Caldari
We Don't Need This POS Anyway
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Posted - 2010.10.15 21:06:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Abyss Wyrm on 15/10/2010 21:10:22
Males are still awful.
I dont inderstand why i cant make non-wide jaw for any male char? Are male-capsuleers supose to look brute?
We are the damn capsuleers, who can "fire a volley with single thought"(C) not some bar bouncers.
I liked this achura for more then 4 years. And that the best i've could do with new editor.
I realy hate to see so much wide jaws on him, he looks veeeeeery stoopid with them. And if I can't make it as before, I will prefer not to make it at all. Better to have faceless silhouette then this :(
And since eyelashes often looks awful as well, especialy then you try edit eye-emotions, i think better add option to remove eyelashes at all.
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Soden Rah
Gallente
Rapier Industry and Technology
Second Sun Rising
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Posted - 2010.10.15 23:25:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Soden Rah on 15/10/2010 23:30:09
Having spent some more time playing around with this creating different chars and I have to say that my irritation/hate level for the dials is growing at an exponential rate. Please for the love of whatever Amarrian god you worship, get rid of them.... use drop down menus (and back forward arrows for those just wanting to browse) with names (and numbers) for all the different options, itÆs easy and intuitive, you get an idea of what your selecting before hand, can easily find options you like/avoid those you don't. For testing its useful as we could say hairstyle 23 is great and 32 causes my machine to crash, incidentally the laggyest thing is the hair selection by far, which just highlights how bad an idea the dials are, they eat up badly needed processing/graphics power and do a worse job than a simpler less intensive option.
On the subject of the hair, when trying to create and Amarr female char her hair changed colour (got a lot darker) when i put her boots on. I actually preferred the new colour (definitely need more and better options here, most of the hair colours are really bad. Again you could save some trouble for your selves and our graphics cards by making the colour selection for the hair global, so it doesn't have to optionally load every time you choose a different style.)
also particularly when trying to sculpt and then pose the face, the little movements to show the avatar's 'alive' are really irritating and make life a lot harder, especially for the posing as trying to get the avatar to make an expression (of any kind) and hold it while you take a shot is damn near impossible, perhaps making the avatar freeze when being sculpted and when being posed for a the photo shot would help (also an option to turn the movement on and off might help those with less graphics processing power at hand).
When creating a new char the character carousel is too small, (also the guys are naked and neutered , which may be fine for the Amarr but IÆm Galente and we don't roll that way. If the guys in the office are too embarrassed to design some man pieces worthy of a capsular have one of the women on the team do it  ) for those trying to choose what race and bloodline they want (especially if they are new to the game) you want nice big chars you can tell apart not little tiny ones you have to squint at.
Male (female?) body hair, we need some, with lots of slidey bar options for length density colour and such.
The sculpting controls on the legs are basically for the hips and arse, and do very little to the legs themselves, and while I might want to make some linked regional changes I also want to be able to then go in and alter smaller regions as well (also asymmetrically) perhaps having some sculpting controls for large sections of the body for general shape changes, then more specific control's for smaller sub regions, like for the arms you could have specific controls for upper and lower arm thickness and length( with the ability to make symmetric changes adjusting both left and right lower arm length say, or adjusting each individually if I want (you could have an asymmetry limit if you want to prevent people making completely ridiculous lopsided people that wouldn't work for incarna). Also need to be able to specify height, in Imperial please, no metric nonsense, or optional metric nonsense for those not brought up properly.
One thing though, and I know your very busy, but a post now and then saying, hey that idea was good, or sorry no we're not going to do that, or thatÆs not possible, or what do you think of this idea/feature.... for example a post saying don't worry the dials are temporary, or ok we were trying them out but they evidently suck so we're going to do something else... then we can stop complaining about them and move onto the next thing and progress is made 
Anyhow, I am looking forward to even this small taste of incarna and await the next iteration with interest.
Soden Rah
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