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Inquisitor Tyr
The Ostrogoths
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.08.14 07:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?
A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?
If all ores being of equal value, and high sec ores being worth just as much as nullsec ores, is the vision for mining I suggest removing all the various ores and replacing it all with "RockOre". And instead of using different minerals, players can build all ships with 1 material - "RockOre". Real nice and simplestupid.
Ridiculous right? I suspect most Eve players aren't interested in something quite so dumbed down.
Unless you happen to be in a -1.0 truesec system that spawns arkonor naturally, you are just as well off mining in empire where you can AFK (something you canGÇÖt do in null). And no, the industry upgrades with hidden belts donGÇÖt make up for it. e.g. The level 1 upgrade contains mostly Spodumain, which is among the least valuable ores in the game (based on Jita prices at the time of this writing). So whatGÇÖs there to look forward to for the upgrade - cockite and bistot worth less than veldspar and a couple roids with arkonor and mercoxit.
In Sum - Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining, and it requires your complete attention on local, but the reward for the extra effort is no longer there. |
Paikis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
115
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Posted - 2012.08.14 09:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining
I LOL'd so hard. |
Inquisitor Tyr
The Ostrogoths
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 09:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining I LOL'd so hard.
U Mad bro?
:p |
Anhenka
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
20
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Posted - 2012.08.14 09:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Operation shovel lots of miners and care bears, toss in a pinch of kitchen-sink defense fleets and viola!
Providence.
Then slather the place in roaming gangs and afk cloakers.
However, for those living way up north or west and barricaded behind 50 blue systems, miners happily slap lasers onto large rocks and go make a sandwich.
It's not that null sec rocks are not worth anything, it's that there is so much of null where it's so safe to mine that it may as well be highsec.
TLDR: supply and demand is a *****, get over it. |
Dasola
Rookies Empire
Rookie Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.08.14 10:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.
In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..
[Insert something funny or smart here] |
Anhenka
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
22
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Posted - 2012.08.14 10:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dasola wrote:Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.
In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..
Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0?
Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite.
That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it. |
Inquisitor Tyr
The Ostrogoths
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 11:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Dasola wrote:Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.
In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system.. Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0? Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite. That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.
As I said, nullsec mining is more effort. When was the last time you heard an empire miner complaining about JFs and logistic POS for their routes from hedion university to amarr ? In fact I suspect most of you dont even know what a logistic POS is!
BTW - Did you read this part? "Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. "
Stuff be broken. |
Inquisitor Tyr
The Ostrogoths
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 11:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dasola wrote:Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.
In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..
0.0 mining is safer than empire huh. What system you mining in m8? Link here plz. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intrepid Crossing
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 12:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dasola wrote:Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.
In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..
I didn't go to nullsec to mine veldspar. CCP put ABCM in nullsec for a reason.
We'll see if the market adjusts though. I don't think it will. Mining in null is vastly different than highsec, which is stupid easy.
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
143
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Posted - 2012.08.14 13:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Incursion and Mission Runners whine because LP is near worthless.
Manufacturers whine because there's hardly any profit on T1 Ammo and Ships.
Pirates whine because there are no more targets to shoot.
Null miners whine because... |
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Vrul Alfar
Antiestablishment Association for Personal Gain
0
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Posted - 2012.08.14 13:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Im still trying to understand what everyone wants. People want CCP to stay away from the economy and let things be what they are, then people want CCP to come and adjust prices to make them more ISK. If you want CCP to give you ISK, buy PLEX with money and sell it on the market. Me personally, I prefer CCP to keep its fingers out of the economy and let the players keep running it. So in the end, if you have problems with ore prices, talk to the people that are paying high prices for high sec ores and low prices for null ores. But personally I want the players, not CCP, setting market prices and controlling its fluctuations. I am sorry you are sad your ISK/hr has been messed with, but you need to bark up someone else's tree, not CCP's. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery
Team Liquid
215
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Posted - 2012.08.14 13:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nullsec mining is safer than highsec |
Velicitia
Open Designs
1070
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 14:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Trouble is that nullsec has nearly zero industrial capacity, when compared to hisec.
Hisec station -- 50 MFG slots. You can have 1+ of these per system.
Nullsec station (outpost, non-drug base (source)) - 2 (Minmatar/Caldari), 4 (Gallente), 20 (Amarr). You can have ONLY ONE per system.
So, what this does is make everything (in null) work out of POS. It's *FAR* easier to export zyd/mega/etc and import ships (or compressed minerals) than build it there. If there was a larger industrial capacity in null, we wouldn't see as much of the minerals being exported, since they could be more easily used where they're obtained... |
Jason TheDragon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.08.14 14:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Welcome to the pitfalls of making your money selling market commodities. You want a fixed isk/hr activity, go rat or run missions. |
Aud Actori
Ciomach Industry
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 15:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?
A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?
If everyone in null-sec & wh's stopped mining A,B & C, I suspect you'd see a jump in prices.
Read http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp. 
|
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
166
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 15:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
This Post... it is strong in the fail... *recycle process activated* ... *whooosh*... the air now free of whine.
Look at all the Macks in local...impressive... very impressive... I see you have fashioned a new exhumer... much like you father's... your skills as a miner are now complete...indeed you are powerful as CCP Devs have foreseen... |
Idris Helion
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2012.08.14 15:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing.
People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it.
|
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intrepid Crossing
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore. It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing. People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it.
But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well.
Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right?
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Arec Bardwin
Perkone
Caldari State
706
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 16:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Ore Imbalance It's called supply and demand. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.14 17:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Idris Helion wrote:Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Dear CCP:
Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore. It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing. People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it. But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well. Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right?
Mining in null isn't that dangerous if you're behind a blue firewall. All you have to do is tank belt rats. Your corp/alliance may extract higher taxes than in high, so there's that.
But even so, hisec mining is a sucker's game unless you can do it on a large scale. Solo mining is a sucker's game ISK-wise, which is why most miners either have alts or work in crews. ISK/hr minig solo isn't horrible now that the barge patch has gone in, but you can still make more ISH/hr doing almost anything else.
Mineral prices aren't the end of the story on mining being profitable. You have to factor in logistics, sunk costs, and opportunity costs. Consider: even in hisec, you have to get your ore or minerals to a trade hub to get the best price. That usually means at least a maxed-out indy, if not a freighter. So then there are transport costs. If you really want to maximize your price, you have to set up sell orders rather than just taking the highest buy orders, which also takes time.
There's a reason that CCP stuck the high-ends out in null. Even spod, as lousy as it is isk-wise, can be profitable if you have the right strategy. (Mining by contract, for example -- I've mined lots of omber by contract because manufacturers need the isogen. I sell a bit cheaper than market but don't have to haul or deal with transport logistics; my clients get a steady source of isogen at a good price.) |
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Galletrix
Paradigm Shift Logistics
Paradigm Shift Alliance
8
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Posted - 2012.08.14 17:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Exactly the point with, supply and demand. As people notice what you noticed, null sec miners will come down to high sec and start mining veld. ABc ore supply will drop, demand stays the same, so prices will rise. |
Vanria Vexed
Posiden Industrial
8
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Posted - 2012.08.14 17:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
The market is still in flux from the changes made by the removal of Meta 0 drops, drone poo and bot bans. With the changes to mining barges it potentially adds more miners to the market, this adds more time till things steady out. The more that null sec miners mine ABCM to trade for high sec minerals the less valuable null sec minerals become. If you are pissed off at the low prices of null sec minerals make them more rare by going around and killing null sec miners or JF's so they aren't putting those minerals on the market.
Don't sit there and beg CCP to change the mineral prices on the market. CCP has hard data on minerals in the game and I'm sure they would adjust something if there was a problem. Just wait a few months for high sec miners to flood the market with Tritanium and Pyerite as some feel more bold to mine in the new barges not fearing being ganked.
Playing EVE at times feels like putting a 10000 piece puzzle together, enjoying the accomplishment of succedding in completing it, then having some random stranger walk by and flip your table over. |
Styth spiting
Ion Corp.
NightSong Directorate
48
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Posted - 2012.08.14 19:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.
Because over the last few months more and more people have started mining in null/wh. More supply means less demand means less value. You want prices to go up, start hunting miners in null.
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?
There is far far more risk with highsec mining vs null sec. Everyone knows this.
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?
I don't understand how you consider the drone nerf which removed an easy source of null sec minerals from the game some how made null sec mins less valuable.
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
In Sum - Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining, and it requires your complete attention on local, but the reward for the extra effort is no longer there.
High sec requires your full attention on local, yet you have no clue who to watch out for; where as null you see anything not corp/alliance you get safe. Null has POS's to safe up to/store ores, rorquals, controlled space to easily protect ops/miners, and so on and so on.
More people have realized over the last few months how much safer Null is for mining that the market is over saturated, that and I'm assuming the Russians in the drone region switched from rat botting to bot mining.
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Shizuken
Venerated Stars
82
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Posted - 2012.08.14 20:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately. |
Cap James Tkirk
Gung-HO Guns
Moon Warriors
10
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Posted - 2012.08.14 20:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately.
that is a crappy fix, if you want to make HS mineral money go to hs HTFU |
Satea Marsh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.08.14 20:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Dasola wrote:Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.
In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system.. Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0? Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite. That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.
why are you exporting trit from nosec to hisec? Most people know to mine where they sell/use the product. The only thing you should be exporting OUT of null are the rare minerals. |
Anhenka
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
22
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Posted - 2012.08.14 20:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Satea Marsh wrote:Anhenka wrote:Dasola wrote:Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.
In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system.. Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0? Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite. That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it. why are you exporting trit from nosec to hisec? Most people know to mine where they sell/use the product. The only thing you should be exporting OUT of null are the rare minerals.
/facepalm.
Thats the point.
Quote:In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.
Even if they were 25% more valuable then ABC, 0.0 miners mining to sell the minerals in highsec would continue to mine the ABC simply due to the immense volume of trit that makes export non viable. That's the point I was making I think we have already determined your reading comprehension is crippled. |
Aud Actori
Ciomach Industry
5
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Posted - 2012.08.14 20:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately.
That wouldn't work.
It would force more people to mine, and existing miners to increase their yields.
As supply increases to meet & exceed demand, prices would fall again.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
522
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Posted - 2012.08.14 21:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Welcome to a supply and demand marketplace.
If you want to know what something is worth before starting, run missions.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Shizuken
Venerated Stars
82
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Posted - 2012.08.14 21:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Aud Actori wrote:Shizuken wrote:The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately. That wouldn't work. It would force more people to mine, and existing miners to increase their yields. As supply increases to meet & exceed demand, prices would fall again.
It most certainly would work. It would double or tripple the demand for those minerals which doubles or tripples the amount of character time required to produce them. If increases in demand dont increase prices then you need to explain to me how come I dont pay $1 per gallon of gas like I did 12 years ago.
Not only that, but since null ores also produce common minerals too it would increase the supply of those as people woukd have to mine twice as much null ores to get what they need to build things. That increase in supply would soften prices for common minerals... |
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