Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining

I LOL'd so hard.

Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..

Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0?

Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite.

That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.

Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..

Well maybe 0.0 miners should stop mining just abc ores and stop flooding the market with those. And yes i do mine time to time in 0.0 myself, but mainly just to get some change for grinding npc sites.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

Also i think 0.0 is safer then highsec. none will stay im belt mining when theres red or neutral in system..

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?

A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?

Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

It's only more valuable if you can get it to high and sell it at a profit. Good luck trucking that huge load of trit/py into hisec. Your transport costs will eat you alive. Nobody mines low-end ores in null for profit. It's mined for local manufacturing.

People look only at the unit price of the minerals and don't factor in the opportunity costs associated with acquiring it and selling it.

Ore Imbalance

But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well.

Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right?

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?

A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?

In Sum - Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining, and it requires your complete attention on local, but the reward for the extra effort is no longer there.

The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately.

Ever try and export 10 billion isk worth of trit from deep 0.0?

Even if the nullsec ores are worth less than plain old veldspar per m3, they refine down to only a tiny fraction of the volume mineralwise compared to veld or pyrite.

That hypothetical 10 bil isk worth of trit @ 5 isk/trit? 2 million m3. Have fun with either expensive JF convoys or pre module compressing it.

why are you exporting trit from nosec to hisec? Most people know to mine where they sell/use the product. The only thing you should be exporting OUT of null are the rare minerals.

In fact im suprised 0.0 miners havent switched to these more valuable ores, since those rocks in 0.0 should be pretty big by now.

The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately.

That wouldn't work.

It would force more people to mine, and existing miners to increase their yields.

As supply increases to meet & exceed demand, prices would fall again.

U Mad bro?

:p

A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?

It most certainly would work. It would double or tripple the demand for those minerals which doubles or tripples the amount of character time required to produce them. If increases in demand dont increase prices then you need to explain to me how come I dont pay $1 per gallon of gas like I did 12 years ago.

Trouble is that nullsec has nearly zero industrial capacity, when compared to hisec.

Hisec station -- 50 MFG slots. You can have 1+ of these per system.
Nullsec station (outpost, non-drug base (source)) - 2 (Minmatar/Caldari), 4 (Gallente), 20 (Amarr). You can have ONLY ONE per system.

So, what this does is make everything (in null) work out of POS. It's *FAR* easier to export zyd/mega/etc and import ships (or compressed minerals) than build it there. If there was a larger industrial capacity in null, we wouldn't see as much of the minerals being exported, since they could be more easily used where they're obtained...

Exactly the point with, supply and demand. As people notice what you noticed, null sec miners will come down to high sec and start mining veld. ABc ore supply will drop, demand stays the same, so prices will rise.

Why would you import to null tritanium and pyerite when there's tons of it out there? -jut mine it and laugh at high sec miners and voil+á.

Because it's not worth it.

Trouble is that nullsec has nearly zero industrial capacity, when compared to hisec.

Hisec station -- 50 MFG slots. You can have 1+ of these per system.
Nullsec station (outpost, non-drug base (source)) - 2 (Minmatar/Caldari), 4 (Gallente), 20 (Amarr). You can have ONLY ONE per system.

So, what this does is make everything (in null) work out of POS. It's *FAR* easier to export zyd/mega/etc and import ships (or compressed minerals) than build it there. If there was a larger industrial capacity in null, we wouldn't see as much of the minerals being exported, since they could be more easily used where they're obtained...

All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.

LMAO, Guess what you can not have it both ways. I have heard it again and again from you guys that improving the mining barges will hurt ore prices because of supply and demand as if the gankers alone are responsible for the ore prices.
Well they are not supply and demand are what controls the price of ore INCLUDING null sec ores. If null sec ores are cheap it is only because of an oversupply of those ores to the market. That is not the fault of CCP or high sec miners. It is because null sec miners are too efficient and over mine supply as compared to the demand of those ores.

LMAO, Guess what you can not have it both ways. I have heard it again and again from you guys that improving the mining barges will hurt ore prices because of supply and demand as if the gankers alone are responsible for the ore prices.
Well they are not supply and demand are what controls the price of ore INCLUDING null sec ores. If null sec ores are cheap it is only because of an oversupply of those ores to the market. That is not the fault of CCP or high sec miners. It is because null sec miners are too efficient and over mine supply as compared to the demand of those ores.

LMAO, Guess what you can not have it both ways. I have heard it again and again from you guys that improving the mining barges will hurt ore prices because of supply and demand as if the gankers alone are responsible for the ore prices.
Well they are not supply and demand are what controls the price of ore INCLUDING null sec ores. If null sec ores are cheap it is only because of an oversupply of those ores to the market. That is not the fault of CCP or high sec miners. It is because null sec miners are too efficient and over mine supply as compared to the demand of those ores.

Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?

A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?

If all ores being of equal value, and high sec ores being worth just as much as nullsec ores, is the vision for mining I suggest removing all the various ores and replacing it all with "RockOre". And instead of using different minerals, players can build all ships with 1 material - "RockOre". Real nice and simplestupid.

Ridiculous right? I suspect most Eve players aren't interested in something quite so dumbed down.

Unless you happen to be in a -1.0 truesec system that spawns arkonor naturally, you are just as well off mining in empire where you can AFK (something you canGÇÖt do in null). And no, the industry upgrades with hidden belts donGÇÖt make up for it. e.g. The level 1 upgrade contains mostly Spodumain, which is among the least valuable ores in the game (based on Jita prices at the time of this writing). So whatGÇÖs there to look forward to for the upgrade - cockite and bistot worth less than veldspar and a couple roids with arkonor and mercoxit.

In Sum - Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining, and it requires your complete attention on local, but the reward for the extra effort is no longer there.

[quote=Herr Hammer Draken]
Typically, it takes roughly 10 time more mining time to gather the tritanium required for a ship than the megacyte. In these conditions, and taking into account the NPC loots, it's hard to imagine how highend ore could not be overproduced.

All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics.

All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.

Confirming that high sec miners are mining behind a wall of blues, with intel channels that can tell you when a ganker is coming. Also, they can use a Rorq for extra boosts above what an Orca can give, as well as compression of ore to make haulling it easier.

Anyway, the Nullsec ores are cheap because there are still massive Drone poop era mineral stockpiles being drawn down.

That is a false-cause fallacy of yours. The fact that null sec mining is far less profitable than high sec mining means just that high-sec mining is more profitable.
Is it really the risk vs reward questions? Than why the sandbox does not solve the problem? People seem to be fine to mine for that price. Are you calling all null sec miners idiots? All of them?

Is the risk really higher in well secured systems with only blues within 20 jumps for nullbears?

Maybe the problem is that because the risk is low, the cost are low and you can do it via botting and afk "playing" it is to popular in low sec to mine those "valuable" resources. Seems at least to me more realistic reason why miners produce more of something than there is demand for it.

If you are really, really pissed about this I strongly recommend you to hunt more null sec miners to decrease supply, this will increase risk and reward of null sec mining just fine.

I am a tardly npc alt that does not provide any argument and howls drivel

If you are in an organised group, logistic and production in null are pretty easy

a few jump bridges, a supply of ice and you use frieghters

An organised indy corp can make very good isk selling prefited alliance equiped ships

Highsec mining logistics requires:
1. Clicking the autopilot button.

There is way more risk in the nullsec portion than in the highsec portion which is as it should be. The problem comes in that the highsec portion carries far more reward than the nullsec portion.

^^: Read that post Pipa hit a bunch of good things.



That fallacy thing you really should research it before you decide to try and use it .

It is a risk : reward problem. In highsec can you be hot dropped? In highsec can you be bubbled? In highsec can roaming gangs comprised of people who have not wardeced you shoot you without concord retaliation? In high sec do you have to use jump freighters/rorquals to move your minerals/ore? In highsec do you have battleship rats in the belts/sites? In highsec can you be bombed? In highsec do you have to use ridiculous methods that CCP disdains (gun compression) to move your minerals in a less pain inducing format? In highsec do you have to interact with any other group of rival players to guarantee a modicum of safety? In highsec are you required to run intel channels to operate efficiently?

The answer to all of the above is no and they are all good reason why the risk : reward dynamic of nullsec mining is way off balance when compared to highsec mining. The risk for nullsec mining is way higher than the reward and the risk for highsec mining is way lower than the reward.

Did it ever cross your mind that CCP designs the game but is not omniscient and does not see all of the consequences of their changes right away? CCP makes mistakes (often) when making alterations and this risk : reward problem is a huge example of that. Furthermore the "sandbox" does nothing it is an abstract concept used to define the bounds of operating in the game, it cannot fix anything.

The only thing I'm willing to call nullsec miners is lazy and that's because they are not actively campagining against the total BS that is the high reward and nearly non-existant risk of highsec mining.

I should address this too because I know there will be whining about it. The "sea of blue" that is constantly whined about requires massive social effort to maintain and is crucial to being a sov holding alliance in nullsec. Whining about "sea's of blue" is basically screaming NERF MAKING FRIENDS! Highsec people are perfectly capable of creating intel channels and "sea's of blue" around them as well but it requires effort and that seems to be something that highsec people will not have anything to do with.

[quote=Dystopia Arkaral]



Highsec mining logistics requires:
1. Clicking the autopilot button.

There is way more risk in the nullsec portion than in the highsec portion which is as it should be. The problem comes in that the highsec portion carries far more reward than the nullsec portion.

You mean Goons declaring war on all highsec miners had negative consequences for everyone in nullsec too? Wow, that was impossible to forsee.

The added difficulty of null sec mining to me looks more like a higher barrier of entry than anything. Once the "sea of blue", heauling/compresssion and the bigger rats handling are up and running, it looks like high sec mining. The only current problem with the rewardd seems to be a supply/demand problem. Trit is slowly going down since the patch tho which made veld drop under pyro in isk/m3. If you want higher reward from the null sec mining, you will have to "fix" the supply/demand so either arrange for more ship to be built or prevent people from mining in null.

More ship being built would potentially raise the reward of null mining but also high as building ship will always require tons of high sec ore. So get miners out of null if you don't want high sec to also gain from your work.

Except its not a barrier to entry its a cost like POS fuel, it needs to be paid constantly. Everything you listed requires a lot of maintenance and is prone to failure hence it being more risky to mine in nullsec versus mining in highsec. The supply/demand thing is a tough one to handle before all those stores of minerals Pipa noted about are depleted. Requiring more Zydrine, Megacyte and Morphite for stuff seems like a good way to increase the reward. I also like the idea of changing what the ore refines to by reducing minerals received from highsec ores and increasing them from null/low exclusive ores as well as adding some low ends to more ore types. Adjusting those two things could easily solve the reward imbalance without adding more risk to highsec or nullsec/lowsec.

If mining in null is really that much harder than high sec, the price will move back to a different ratio without any change in manufacturing cost. The only problem is to know when the stockpile will dry out and how big the price difference will be. Is there a way to use high minerals without raising the demand for lower one? I don't know any personally so speeding up the bleeding might be impossible.

Not to mention, refining in 0.0 REQUIRES station access - which most people cannot get with small mining corps - but they can in high-sec.

Not true. You can install a refining module on a POS. It's at best 75% (I think) and it takes time to complete (unlike an NPC station where refining is instant). Lots of corps out in the willywags of EVE use POS refineries. In spite of the downsides of POS refining, it's preferable to trying to get into a perma-camped/bubbled station.

EDIT: Lots of null miners also depend on Rorquals to compress the ore to ship back to hisec for refining. It's been awhile since I've lived out that way, so I'm not sure if POS refineries are still used all that much.

Not true. You can install a refining module on a POS. It's at best 75% (I think) and it takes time to complete (unlike an NPC station where refining is instant). Lots of corps out in the willywags of EVE use POS refineries. In spite of the downsides of POS refining, it's preferable to trying to get into a perma-camped/bubbled station.

EDIT: Lots of null miners also depend on Rorquals to compress the ore to ship back to hisec for refining. It's been awhile since I've lived out that way, so I'm not sure if POS refineries are still used all that much.

This is another good point I had forgotten about that refining module. Highsec refineries should be capped at some number below that or have it work out to that being the max amount with the rest being taxed.

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed..

Unless you're suggesting that POS and Station components revert back to being NPC seeded items, you don't know what an ISK sink is.

wtf?

An isk sink is where you remove isk from the game, either through destruction or taxation.

This has both of those elements which were you referring to ?

Someone comes alone and destroyes a 200b isk spacestation, that's what I call a big isk sink.

Someone can't afford a 200b isk station but can afford 5b, then there are higher taxes to deal with, even if you have the same functionality. Another isk sink.

Pretty sure I know what an isk sink is, I also know what an irrelevant troll is, do you ?

wtf?

An isk sink is where you remove isk from the game, either through destruction or taxation.

This has both of those elements which were you referring to ?

Someone comes alone and destroyes a 200b isk spacestation, that's what I call a big isk sink.

Someone can't afford a 200b isk station but can afford 5b, then there are higher taxes to deal with, even if you have the same functionality. Another isk sink.

Pretty sure I know what an isk sink is, I also know what an irrelevant troll is, do you ?

Someone destroys a 200b Spacestation, that sinks materials, not ISK, unless the station was seeded by NPCs.

The ISK still circulates, since you bought the mats from another player.

The 1% transaction costs aren't sizable enough to matter.

Someone destroys a 200b Spacestation, that sinks materials, not ISK, unless the station was seeded by NPCs.

The ISK still circulates, since you bought the mats from another player.

The 1% transaction costs aren't sizable enough to matter.

If I buy 200b worth of materials to build a 200b isk spacestation - and it gets blown up - that's 200b of isk removed from the game.

Please tell me how that's not an isk sink ?

If CCP wishes to just "stop isk flowing into the game" they can at any time remove the plex system lol

If you buy 200b in materials another player just made 200b so the isk stays in game it is not being taken out at all.

Blowing ships up is an ISK tap, not a sink. The money you paid for the ship is still in circulation, minus the 1% or so transaction tax, plus the insurance payout generates ISK out of nothing and gives it to you thereby increasing the amount of ISK sloshing around Eve's economy.

So, you're obviously NOT a miner.

Thanks for the clarification.

It's pretty obvious that CCP wishes to change POS to modular, Stations to destructible.

So why even have 2 different systems?

Why not have 1 structure, and have all the modules available to POS instead.
POS with offices.
POS with markets.
POS with refineries.
POS with clone facilities.
POS with proper refineries.
POS with laboratories and factories.
POS with refitting and repair services.

It is about time this happened.

It would help the current deficiencies in wormholes, it could rejuvenate low-sec, it would be a HUGE isk sink for large alliances that wanted to spend hundreds of billions on their "Main space station" - only to have it destroyed.

It would also allow CCP to have only *1* structure they need to develop instead of 2.

It could easily have low monetary amount to start off, but the modules cost more as you add more of them - so by the 3rd or 4th refinery module you're spending 5b a module instead of 500m that the first one cost you.

Let's restart, perhaps I just mislaid the plans and misled people.

In order to make scalable costs in a refinery module for instance, a refinery module would be a refinery module on market and perhaps it costs 1b isk.

But if it's your 3rd one to install in order to get better refines and perhaps more tax for the corp, perhaps it costs isk to install.
Let's say another 2b ?

This would be cash money in order to make the whole POS thing scalable - differentiating between small corp and large alliance pos.

Sorry I didn't realise I hadn't explained it properly in the first place, we all misunderstood each other.

But I still say blowing ships up is a sink due to manufacturing costs related to the building of materials - especially true of t2 goods. Everything costs something.

ahh so all the items will be NPC seeded instead of player seeded that is a huge difference thanks for clearing it up.....


now its a sink

so what your saying is

1 players build the moduel
2 user pays for mod
3 user pays to install the mod and that is multiplied by the number of same type of mods being intalled or previously installed
4 at the phenominal pricing only the uber rich stand to be able to use pos

pos are meant to be small outpost not gigantic hubs of commerce and trade where everything can and is done for a price i think the current setup is fine in the difference between the two. if you want a station go take one or set one up.

This will kill IMO a large chunk of industry and the whole idea that anyone can do anythng in eve since now POS will be for the elite multi-billion a day alliance/corp/player

i see this being more of a detriment to eve then a boon

How is 1b phenomenal pricing ?

If you hadn't checked of late, CCP are also talking about POS being able to be anchored anywhere, and having multiple POS within sight of each other.

They also talk about allowing more than one station per system. This sounds more like POS to me.

How will it "kill industry" ?!?

This allows someone poor to set a pos up for a couple of billion, but over time add more to it, make cash from it and make the social connections along the way.

Take a POS in low-sec, you set one up, put up a repair, clone and office service for a reasonable price. A pirate corp comes along and makes it their home, some other guys jumping their caps through might also rent an office. Suddenly, you're making a few bucks and just hauling your fuel there each month. Then upgrade it later.

Anyone being able to do anything in eve is exactly the problem.

How many people actually GET TO RUN stations ? Not that many... like 1%.
This allows any POS to do exactly what a station does, stations are becoming redundant anyhow because they want to make them destructible.

I'm talking about lowering the barrier to entry on the station services by just putting those same modular pieces on POS instead.

It will happen anyhow, just a matter of time now.

If we have more than 1 station per system, and more than 1 pos per system, both are modular, both are destructible - why do we have 2 different types of building at all ?

If I buy 200b worth of materials to build a 200b isk spacestation - and it gets blown up - that's 200b of isk removed from the game.

Please tell me how that's not an isk sink ?

If CCP wishes to just "stop isk flowing into the game" they can at any time remove the plex system lol

So is the same for ships, however I think you'll find that CCP considers blowing ships up an isk sink.

Nice going dumbass.

So come mine in high sec? Problem solved?

How about instead of tears of whine whenever something doesnt go your way you adapt, improvise and ovecome? If you spent as much effort crying as you did adapting to changes you would be sitting back comfortable in a high sec belt making fat wallets.

Or you'd realize high sec mining isnt a money tree, and that'd be that.

[quote=Joshua Lonestar]So come mine in high sec? Problem solved?

How about instead of tears of whine whenever something doesnt go your way you adapt, improvise and ovecome? If you spent as much effort crying as you did adapting to changes you would be sitting back comfortable in a high sec belt making fat wallets.

Or you'd realize
this^^^^^^^

Let's restart, perhaps I just mislaid the plans and misled people.

Money maker or not is beyond the issue at hand. The problem is that highsec mining has far less risk and far more reward than nullsec mining. The whole crying argument is crap here too because whining on the forums is the premier tactic of highsec miners, I'm fighting fire with fire.

Then quit mining in Null and mine in HS.

Once enough people do this, HS mining income will decrease and Nullsec mining income will increase.

Once the rest of the Drone poo stockpiles have been burned through, nothing will be affecting relative mining income other than the amount of mining done in each area.

In general, the problem with nullsec mining being terrible is that it doesn't give an incentive for industrial types to move to null. The existing residents of null (i.e. us) don't give a damn because no one mines unless they're at least quad-boxing and the rest of us have all gotten used to doing something other than mining for income. Mining has already been terrible for the last few years--mainly due to the old drone mechanics, ease of botting, and t1 loot drops. This isn't a "waaaah I'm not making enough cash" problem; it is a "this is a bad setup for the game in the long-term" problem.


No one was misled--you were just wrong and smug about it because you are a moron.

Money maker or not is beyond the issue at hand. The problem is that highsec mining has far less risk and far more reward than nullsec mining. The whole crying argument is crap here too because whining on the forums is the premier tactic of highsec miners, I'm fighting fire with fire.

I tend to disagree with you on most things. But I liked your post because I actually agree with you on this one.

I LOL'd so hard.

You're right you shouldn't have to adapt or change anything it's all those damned highsec miners that should have to change!!! Keep up the good fight for non adaptive game play!

Why should we have to adapt when we can whine on the forums and eventually CCP will change something so our incompetence can continue unhindered :smith:.

I think part of the reason this imbalance occurs is there is not enough of certain minerals in the rocks in hi sec, there is in effect an infinite amount of ore in null sec as long as you cycle the grav sites, in hi sec you can easily pop all the scordite in a belt with one covetor in a small amount of time. THis means the there is a shortfall in total, since pyer is to bulky to ship out of null it does not help. There is also very litle scordite in missions, and no hi sec anomolies with scordite in it.

If there was a way to mine the scordite in low sec it may balance, but everyone knows that is not a long term economically viable way to make isk.

Basically if scordite was more available in hi sec, more would be mined, the pyer price would drop and most likley all other minerals would rise since pyer would lose its semi bottleneck position.
Allso, scord can be painful to mine (pops in 1 1/2 cycles) is spread out and generally not as avaialble especially in areas safe from can flipping. So even scodite is actually the sometimes 2-4th best rock per m3 it may actually yeild lower isk/hr due to incoveniance.

how to mine and move minerals on the cheep and fast in 0.0.

MINE MINE MINE MINE

put up pos with ammo build arry and make bombs

move bombs to empire

Not sure if serious.

what you dont like a 16 to 1 compression ratio that use almost 10 x more minerals than a railgun ?, sure its not as good as the 20 to 1 ratio of rail guns but on the flip side it takes alot less time to fill a jf or seven, at max produktion of 1 bpo it takes you 30 hours to fill a jf, can you tell me the same with one railgun bpo ?

You don't quite understand what "Extra Materials" mean, do you?

i dont think you know how to build bombs so what ever bro.

BTW - Did you read this part? "Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. "

Stuff be broken.

In this example for Trit:
11.000 in raw materials and 1.403.572 in extra material.
When you reprocess the Bomb you get 11.000 Trit back and loose the 1.403.572 Trit from extra materials - these trit is never seen again!

i dont think you know how to build bombs so what ever bro.

Null sec is more dangerous than High sec, however the idea that living far away in the middle of nowhere guarantees safety is horse crap.

The best mining is done on the front, under the supervision of 200+ Alliance members, because when theirs any kind of camp fleet there's always a assload of jumpy PvP pilots to handle it.

To me this seems like introducing the McCormick reaper in the Dust Bowl.
We start off having lost a significant source of ore and minerals driving the cost up.
Then you introduce vastly superior methods of collecting the ore resulting in a surge of the goods.
this is what you are seeing, market turmoil.
Exasperating the issue is the perceived and rightful danger nullsec brings.
Many miners are not interested in needing to protect themselves and would rather be left alone.
At the same time the map blotches do not do much to encourage these miners to join them.
Thus you have a massive workforce in hisec, with little interest in going to low.

Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

To me this seems like introducing the McCormick reaper in the Dust Bowl.
We start off having lost a significant source of ore and minerals driving the cost up.
Then you introduce vastly superior methods of collecting the ore resulting in a surge of the goods.
this is what you are seeing, market turmoil.
Exasperating the issue is the perceived and rightful danger nullsec brings.
Many miners are not interested in needing to protect themselves and would rather be left alone.
At the same time the map blotches do not do much to encourage these miners to join them.
Thus you have a massive workforce in hisec, with little interest in going to low.

Then quit mining in Null and mine in HS.

Once enough people do this, HS mining income will decrease and Nullsec mining income will increase.

Once the rest of the Drone poo stockpiles have been burned through, nothing will be affecting relative mining income other than the amount of mining done in each area.

Other than what ccp decids minerals are used for. They broke mineral balance forever when they introduced cap ships.

I'm still boggling at 13 ISK per unit pyerite. I can remember back when pye was going for about 4 ISK per unit. Scord went uncollected in belts because it wasn't worth the trouble of mining it. Now? Scord and Plag get cleaned out of belts and Veld gets left. (Which is stupid, at least in hisec mining ops; Veld is still one of the best ores in the game. Always has been; always will be.)

I'm not sure what tweaks CCP made to the manufacturing mineral requirements of the various ships and modules, but I do know that you can now make decent money by mining, and that's a nice change.

Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?

About a week ago, I read in a wiki that the initial mineral prices followed a x4 cost progression. Tritanium was meant to be 2 ISK p/u, Pyerite 8 ISK p/u, Mexallon 32 ISK p/u, Isogen 128 ISK p/u, Nocxium 512 ISK p/u, and so forth.

Based on those values, it should be possible to calculate the ore-values-per-m3 as CCP intended them to be, and use that as a powerful objective argument for how skewed the game has become, relative to CCP's original vision.

I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate the value for most of the low-end ores.

The simple fix is to just double or tripple the quantity of rare minerals needed to build things... That would fix the problem immediately.

Here's my suggestion:

About a week ago, I read in a wiki that the initial mineral prices followed a x4 cost progression. Tritanium was meant to be 2 ISK p/u, Pyerite 8 ISK p/u, Mexallon 32 ISK p/u, Isogen 128 ISK p/u, Nocxium 512 ISK p/u, and so forth.

Based on those values, it should be possible to calculate the ore-values-per-m3 as CCP intended them to be, and use that as a powerful objective argument for how skewed the game has become, relative to CCP's original vision.

I have a spreadsheet set up to calculate the value for most of the low-end ores.

Those are not the original values, they are far more recent values used in insurance (accounting for the increased value of low ends). The initial values that the game started with (and which was enforced by npc buy orders at first) were;

Tritanium - 1 isk
Pyerite - 4 isk
Mexallon - 16 isk
Isogen - 64 isk
Nocxium - 256 isk
Zydrine - 1024 isk
Megacite - 4096 isk

And the prices were relatively near this for a long long time. When i actually mined back in 2005 or whatever omber was the big deal because isogen had broken the 80 isk barrier. Zydrine was the first real bottleneck, it pushed 3k at one point iirc.

Easy access to high ends through 0.0 colonisation, drone region addition etc along with the massive need of low ends for cap/super cap proliferation has broken this completely.

So trit is 6 times its initial value, pyr and mex 3-4 times their initial value, iso and nocx 1.5-2 times their initial value and zydrine/magacyte half thier initial value. Broken? hell yes.

I say it is not broken. The demand for those minerals decides the price vs the cost to get them for yourself. Everything is included in this calculation by the market itself. How tedious the mining is, how dangerous the mining is, how far the minerals need to be moved, how many are available for sale vs the volume bought daily.
Also several off site mining support web pages track the value of each mineral and ore on a daily basis per region. Miners that mine only to sell ore, do mostly mine the most valuable ore on that day and bring it to market. They get paid according to the demand, ie someone wants it bad enough to pay for it vs mining it for themselves.

Now lately I have seen more mined out belts in high sec than ever before. All of that high sec ore is going to feed somebodies demand. Sooner or later the extra high sec ore being mined will saturate the demand. Price will adjust after that happens.

Also when you say it is broken because trit is 6 times its original value and zydrine and megacyte are half their original values means only that you have observed that zydrine and megacyte are way over supplied and way over mined as compared to trit.

The market uses ore as needed for the production of goods that sell and or are used by the producers. The market is not needing as much megacyte and zydrine as is being supplied.

A group can try to increase demand of these minerals by creating wars that require more ships to be built however the demand for high sec ore will rise as well to meet increased production demands.

A better solution may be to reduce supply of the null sec ores til demand heats up and the prices rise. That way the high sec ores demand does not increase and those prices remain stable by comparrison. Controll of that issue is completely up to those that live in null space.

But in null, at least in my experience, mineral prices are compared to Jita prices. So the value of ore is still imbalanced wrt the system CCP created. But yes, most veld mining I do is because I need the trit but I've bought a bunch of it as well.

Supply needs arent really the issue though. It's the profit incentive system. Did CCP want players to be able to make more isk per hour mining in high sec or low/null? Should increased risk, training, and logistics earn more or less? Perhaps this is temporary but like I said above, I didn't move to null to mine veldspar. Im a maxed miner with a rorqual boost. I did that to earn more from mining in null than in highsec. This is how the system is designed right?

All that you say is true, except of course that we are working within ccps parameters. They set the mineral values for ships and mods, not the players. Ccp added demand for low ends (capitals, supers), and continue to do so. If the next fotm class of ships they intoroduce are high end heavy that will adjust the balance (will need a lot to make up for caps though . Due to the rather dubious way ships are built demand has no real effect. Most ships use the same sort of ratios of each mineral so customer choice has little impact (this apoc made of trit is too expensive i will buy this geddon made of megacyte). And if you are going to get a cap ship you gonna pay for alot of low ends whatever.

I am also pretty sure i covered your other point with "colonisation of null sec"....

Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?
.

It's not a matter of what's right, it's a matter of what works and what gives the most profit. It's also called "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

great for it's market system and supply and demand but don't for a second think it is a reflection of free market economics. All of those arguments really don't hold the weight people keep repeating them think they do.

If all things were equal, I would agree with you. Fact is they aren't. There is no Arkonor in highsec. The skills are easier to train for empire ores over null ores. The materials to build ships and the ships that are available are not provided by players. It is ALL provided by CCP. Therefore, CCP needs to balance the ores.

This game is great for it's market system and supply and demand but don't for a second think it is a reflection of free market economics. All of those arguments really don't hold the weight people keep repeating them think they do.

The rarest and most sought-after ore in the known universe. A sizable nugget of this can sweep anyone from rags to riches in no time. Arkonor has the largest amount of megacyte of any ore, and also contains some zydrine and tritanium.

Scordite is amongst the most common ore types in the known universe. It has a large portion of tritanium plus a fair bit of pyerite. Good choice for those starting their mining careers.

Wow do you ever come off sounding like a spoiled brat. CCP I want so give it to me. I am supposed to be king!

On reply 1 - We have been hidden belts in null/wh's for years now. So I find little in that argument for why prices are out of whack. That seems to be coming from people that want to blame null miners for their own loss in profit while they reap the rewards of the new price structure in high sec.

I don't think hes being a brat... More risk generally = more reward... And he countered most points very well.. But I still think this is something that should wait.... people have been doing a lot of market vodoo with stockpiling stuff and I cant help but think that it is effecting things right now.

More people are doing it. It's not the individual that matters; collectively, people mining in Nullsec are producing more Nullsec ore than they used to. That leads to prices dropping. My guess is that this is because there has been an increase in the number of people mining in Nullsec (as opposed to an increase in the output of each person).

There is no "new price structure," there's just been a demographic change. Less (or the same) HS miners and More Nullsec miners.

The replies to calls to balance ore usually fall within the following replies:

1. Nullbears are mining too much and have tanked the market for high ends - blame yourself.
2. The market determines prices, not CCP. Get a clue.

.

Ok but the only ships (cap) ships that require a lot of low end minerals are not built in high sec anyway.
So why are all of those low end minerals over suppling high sec? That only makes them cheaper.
The bulk should stay where the production of cap ships are. Now that does a few things it makes them scarce in high sec and hard to reach. And drives the price up. Unless they are way oversupplied at the cap ship source as well?

Demand has a huge effect. If you are an industrialist demand plays a large role in your choice of shop locations. And not just for sales but for the entire supply chain including ores.

Again I can see why CCP set the cap ships to use a lot of low end ores because they are made there.
Ships that are made in high sec use mostly high sec ores. But I am still talking about ratios. 100,000 trit is used for every 1 megacyte in the high sec market. If you supply to that market 100,000 megacyte then in order to use it up we need 10,000,000,000 trit. That is where the demand comes in. Suppling enough high sec ores for the amount of low end.
There is a mismatch right now in that way too many low ends are waiting to be used. Maybe a cap ship war will use them up?

I would agree with this if I saw prices slowly changing over time. However, we had a dramatic price shift all in the last few months. I'm not convinced that's due to more people mining in null/wh's because we would have seen this happen over several years. Additionally, if this were true, Arkonor would also be tanking in price but it's not. That to me is an indication that the refining values for the ores compared to their availability are not balanced in the way the game was created.

So, given the current state of play, the answer is for the market to generate significant amounts of additional high-sec ores. That of course means more people mining in high-sec. Only way that demand is going to be satisfied and so prices fall.

However.. given this game's obsession with strangling the supply through hulkageddon etc I wouldn't bet on prices falling just yet.

So, given the current state of play, the answer is for the market to generate significant amounts of additional high-sec ores. That of course means more people mining in high-sec. Only way that demand is going to be satisfied and so prices fall.

However.. given this game's obsession with strangling the supply through hulkageddon etc I wouldn't bet on prices falling just yet.

Hulkageddon was never that big of an issue to begin with, and with the Retriever and Mackinaw, smart miners will move to quiet, non station systems to mine

i got an idea it would also get more miners into low sec when coupled with other ideas i got.

remove both omber and kernite from hi sec and place them in low sec

Scordite is worth more than both omber and Kernite. So is pyro and plag. You think people would go through the extra trouble of low sec for lesser profit?

you forget about what you get from refining omber and kernite

You mean the little isogen? Did you check the price of pyerite? The only thing beating scordite right now is Akronor and Mercoxit. Those 2 require operation in null sec with the already covered extra work required to mine it. The is a reason nobody mines in low sec and it's probably not gonna change anytime soon.

unless something has changed that i aint quite aware of omber and kernit is the only 2 high sec ore that contain any isogen kernite is also the ore that holds the most of mex of any ore in the game.

It is my belief that CCP nerfed the drone poo because when they do the data dump every day at down time they found that players were generating more minerals from drone poo than they were from mining. That was not what they wanted from the game as miners were supposed to have a reason to exist and have a career. It is in the game plan for eve.
They could determine the amount of minerals generated by mining and used in construction on a daily basis in eve.

Once the source of minerals ended from drone poo then they had to be made up by miners. Now IMO it is the ratio of the null sec minerals compared to the high sec mineral that went askew after the drone poo removal. Perhaps not because of overmining of null ores. But because of under mining of high sec ores. Not enough was getting mined to meet the demand and therefore the excess null minerals began to pile up.

Human nature being what it is the majority of active miners want to mine that which makes the most money. Or mine ice. It was not considered cool to mine trit or scordite. You can see it here in this thread first hand. The op is of a mind that he will never stoop so low as to move to high sec to mine valuable ores. Because he is stuburn and wants the most valuable ores to be the ones he is mining because they are most expensive. Thus he should be rich. That is the basis of his argument. He will not go and mine that which currently pays well to mine. It is that easy but no will not do it.

Question how many others are of that same opinion? And how many are mining ice? How high does the value of mining trit and scordite have to go before miners decide to mine it enmass? And that is why the ratio is out of whack.
I believe before the drone poo nerf more than 1/2 of these minerals came from drone poo and the miners have not yet made up that slack. I can tell because it is hard to find those minerals or enough of those minerals to build anything. So the cost goes up on them. I am slowed up in my construction because of lack of trit and pyrite. The rest I can get enough of or too much of. I am often mining my own trit and pyrite which slows down my construction to the speed at which I can mine.

Point is and I think CCP is also waiting for it, is for miners to take it upon themselves to mine enough of these ores to serve the market place. It is a sure bet that the op will never do this no matter high how trit goes. He will just complain about it louder and louder as the costs of trit and pyrite climbs. I can see the devs at CCP actually chuckling to themselves about the issue as they have the raw data on the daily data dumps.

Now to the point of the real issue. Because of the ratios of these ores and how they are used in construction, EVE needs 20 active high sec miners for every null sec miner to have a balanced amount of these ores on the market. I bet the real ratio is more like 8 to 1 in eve right now. We need to double the number of miners in high sec or 1/2 the number in null to get to the right ratio. The market price is suposed to convince miners to follow the money. But the op prefers to complain about it rather than move to where the money is. So how is CCP going to convince null sec miners to move to high sec? Just like CCP is going to convince high sec players to move to null right? We already see that players go where they think they belong because of preconcieved bias.

Let me bottom line it. You can not just mine the ore you want to and expect someone to pay you top dollar for it. That is not realistc. Just like a builder can not just build a crap ton of expensive stuff and dump it on the market and expect everyone to buy it all up. If the players stop buying it they stop and you sell at a loss. It works that way for the builders AND it works that way for the miner. You are not entitled to top dollar just because it is expensive ore you are mining. You only get to sell it for what the market is willing to pay for it. If you do not like it go find ore that is in demand. It is not that hard or difficult to do. But oh wait lets cry to CCP to fix it for us. Man ok set that precedent now then the builders get to complain and get CCP to protect their income as well. How stupid is this that we can even consider this as a valid complaint.

unless something has changed that i aint quite aware of omber and kernit is the only 2 high sec ore that contain any isogen kernite is also the ore that holds the most of mex of any ore in the game.

You only get to sell it for what the market is willing to pay for it.

i

In terms of weight to return Plagioclase gives you more Mexallon than Kernite. The main use for Kernite is to complete level four storyline missions. Other than for that use it's way to heavy & slow to mine and haul so I would generally advise not mining Kernite.

Omber does have Isogen in it and I do mine that for Isogen though.

so whats your thought on that idea as far as both the market gose and trying to get people into low sec seing you obviosly do mine it and notice the impact it may have

So is the same for ships, however I think you'll find that CCP considers blowing ships up an isk sink.

Nice going dumbass.

Still useless as long as the market currently hold as it is. Unless the price of Isogen start going up really high, moving omber and kernite to low sec will make no difference.

The problem is they made the most common minerals also being required the most. So even tho a mineral is rare and hard to get, it doesent matter, because its not used as much as the common ones. In this sense it is equally profitable to mine either, because the demand is just as high for the common minerals as the rare ones. Just take a look at any blueprint, it will basically require tonnes of trit and pyer, but not so much zyd and megacyte. If megacyte and zyd should become more valuable, demand has to increase, and then blueprints will have to have their recipes changed a bit. This is not practical, because changing recipes will most likely create an uproar in the community. But i suggest when CCP is making new blueprints for new ships and modules, try and make some of them require more or equal amounts of megacyte and trit for example.

The problem is they made the most common minerals also being required the most. So even tho a mineral is rare and hard to get, it doesent matter, because its not used as much as the common ones. In this sense it is equally profitable to mine either, because the demand is just as high for the common minerals as the rare ones. Just take a look at any blueprint, it will basically require tonnes of trit and pyer, but not so much zyd and megacyte. If megacyte and zyd should become more valuable, demand has to increase, and then blueprints will have to have their recipes changed a bit. This is not practical, because changing recipes will most likely create an uproar in the community. But i suggest when CCP is making new blueprints for new ships and modules, try and make some of them require more or equal amounts of megacyte and trit for example.

so whats your thought on that idea as far as both the market gose and trying to get people into low sec seing you obviosly do mine it and notice the impact it may have

I don't see a point or reason to remove Omber & Kernite deposits from high sec space. However hard you try you won't force miners to mine in low or nul sec if they don't want to. You have to be really organised in fleets for low & nulsec mining to work and even then you can come a cropper. Also removing Omber & Kernite would raise prices further when the consensus from the non-mining community is calling for cheaper minerals. So on those two points alone your proposal is dead in the water.

Thing is, the "hisec only" miners just need the right push to get into low...

The trouble is that you have to make friends before you can set up industry. That's "difficult".

Or perhaps people should get out there and mine the high-sec ores to take advantage of the high prices and satisfy the demand....

As said much earlier in this thread, mining low-end ore in nullsec is not a rational solution, as the mining location, refining location, trading locationand production locationare often separate (and, concerning the mining location, required to change as industry index go up and roamers swarms around), often inferior to the highsec equivalents and the logistic between them much more bothersome than "autopilot a freigther from A to B", to the point it simply dont makes sense to do something else than "buy minerals in jita, compress them in 425mm railguns, import the railguns, reprocess the railguns and haul the minerals for one trip only"

TL; DR: Mining low-end ore (veldspar and scordite, for instance) is much less viable in nullsec than in high. That leaves the miners in nullsec (lol) with high-end ores, which they end up overproducing stupidely fast (as I said earlier, the veldspar part of a rokh requires 11 time less mining than the megacyte part. And that's for a t3 battleship, probably the class of ship that requires the most high-end ores).
To put it in another way, if you have more than 1 miner mining arkonor for 11 mining veldspar, megacyte is in overproduction.

But what is preventing you from going into high sec for a while to cash out on the current price? Nobody is forcing anyone to mine in null/low. As long as there will be more than 1 miner in null for every 11 in high, you will make more money in high. So if you want money, go to high. If you want to stay in null, find another way to reduce the amount of miners in null or increase the amount of null minerals required. (I don't even think the option 2 is even possible without also increasing the requirement of high sec minerals.) So kill null miners till they say "**** mining" or go mine in high for more $$$.