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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10052
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:20:00 -
[61] - Quote
Homo Jesus wrote:I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish. That'll still be classed as a separate thing and not theft, as the salvage doesn't belong to anyone.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Mutant Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:46:00 -
[62] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. ^This.
Dear carebears, Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard.
P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold? |
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Homo Jesus wrote:I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish. That'll still be classed as a separate thing and not theft, as the salvage doesn't belong to anyone.
Yeah, probably but what I mean is just flipping a can flags you to all the players that will shoot ninja THIEVES which typically results in.....people have just been asking for a long time to make salvaging a crime while not understanding that's really NOT a good thing for them.
No need to make salvaging a crime just flip one can, hang at a good spot until someone gets a wild hair up their butt and runs to shoot something. No more scanning missions and stealing, can baiting, flipping ore cans, etc is necessary to get half-wits to aggress. |
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
96
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
As a can flipper, I approve this message. There is absolutely risk involved and if someone is 'pirate baiting' (this happens) then you are set up to lose as you cannot effectively aggro their Remote Reps and you are a sitting duck against their corp.
While rare. people do set alts out on belts to lure flippers and kill them with ease. I have even done this to run other flippers out of systems I flip in. |
Alara IonStorm
2975
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. You forgot the smilie face to show that you were joking. I'm not. The mechanics give a massive advantage to the victim. If kept away from newbies and utilized by players Can Flippers become nothing.
I thought you would know that Mara, you always seem to know a lot about EVE. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Unofficially renaming greyscales little baby to Failwatch.
It fails at far more than just canflipping mechanics, after all. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
You lost me at Hi-sec PVP.
There is no Hi-sec PVP, there is only people who hide in Hi-sec, pretending to PVP.
I will always recommend the quick fix of finding a Low-sec gate. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?
I have a question for you. In this engagement, who fired the first shot? |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:36:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:[quote=Alara IonStorm]
Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.
If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.
Bullshit, its like you are saying all car dealers are assholes. Sure there are many assholes in that market but that doesnt mean "everybody" is an ass and carselling has to be removed. Same case here. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1843
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mutant Caldari wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. ^This. Dear carebears, Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard. P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold?
Let me dissect this banter:
1) Those who can flip are not stupid, they can flip those newer characters doing professions (typically mining) with stats and skills which are incompatible with PvP. In the best case they have tank skills trained to IV (I am being optimistic here), just the bare minimum drone skills to kill belt NPCs and zero gunnery.
2) I have yet to see a can flipper EVER staying in there in anticipation of a "good fite" when he sees the other guy warps away. You are doing a big disservice to the category if you really pretend they make themselves sitting ducks waiting for the flipped guy to return with a real PvP ship.
3) The rare, extremely rare cases the responding target vaguely - and I mean it - looks like not dying then the can flippers *always* *always* go off themselves to reship. I myself got one of them flipping my can (back in 2009, I was like 1 week in the game) and when I came back in a T1 fitted Rifter (so dangerous I had to fit a MAPC just to be able to fit guns) he warped out when my cap depleted (could not kill his tank) and came back with a Vaga and 4 RR alts (I did not spot Falcons ).
Anyway anyone who ever undocked knows how such category play, stop teasing like that, nobody believes you. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Equus
Royal Order of Security Specialists Late Night Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
So much BS in this thread.
First, griefing is not PvP, griefing is going after newbs, slow people and anyone who cannot defend themselves. This is not PvP, the griefers try and claim it is, but it's not. They all decry it's a cold universe, danger is everywhere! But they scan targets and go after the weak, they don't want a "real" fight, they want to "tears" and to **** someone off. So, while griefing can lead to PvP, if having that newb try and fight back can even be considered PvP, ganking, can flipping, and all other forms of griefing != PvP.
PvP means a fight, and a good one, popping someone in a couple shots can be fun but it is usually boring, that fight that went back and forth where you came out with < 5% structure, that was a good one. Griefers, sorry "high-sec PvP'ers" don't like these fights, if they thought you stood a chance at all they would not attack you.
On that note, in regards to can flipping itself, while I don't know if it warrants a GCC flag, ALL alliance, corp and even fleet mates should be able to shoot you. I am with a buddy, I am there for protection, do you think in real life, if I was with a friend and someone tried to steal from him that I wouldn't help beat the **** out of the thief?
Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
128
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
Equus wrote:Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all.
If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks.
Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time. Amat victoria curam. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:01:00 -
[73] - Quote
It seems that not all players understand canflipping. So here are the rules
Person A = miner Person B = pewpewguy
1. Person A mines into a secure can = Person B can do nothing except ganking > concord
2. Person A mines into a floatin can = Person B takes something out > now player A and his whole corp can shoot player B, but Player B can do nothing except if the miner takes the bait and shoots > then Player B is able to attack Player A. Btw. Player B's corp can do nothing the whole time except remoterepping what ofc. enable Player A to shoot at the remoterepping corpmate of Player B.
Pfew... not that simple. There are ways to be 100% safe:
1. Dont mine into a can. 2. Dont attack someone if he is red blinky because that usually means he is also able to shoot you.
So, to make this short:
A can flipper has to count on stupid decisions of the miner or there will be no fight at all for him.
There is no "ambush" of an innocent here: A miner has to take the first shot or has to steal something himself to get shot at.
If you steal something out of a can yourself then there will be a big fat warning window telling you something like "uh oh... watch out... u might get killed". If you ignore the window then then you deserve to be killed.
You should think about cans as a PVP-switch in other games. I can switch myself to "pvp" but that doesnt mean i can kill everybody from now on... it just means everybody is able to attack me and i can use self defence. Exactly the same here in eve.
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Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
Equus wrote:First, griefing is not PvP, griefing is going after newbs, slow people and anyone who cannot defend themselves. This is not PvP, the griefers try and claim it is, but it's not. They all decry it's a cold universe, danger is everywhere! But they scan targets and go after the weak, they don't want a "real" fight, they want to "tears" and to **** someone off. So, while griefing can lead to PvP, if having that newb try and fight back can even be considered PvP, ganking, can flipping, and all other forms of griefing != PvP.
Let me correct you. You don't think griefing is pvp but it actually is. If you take your time to read my other posts then you will see that can flipping is not griefing at all because the "victim" has to attack first to be killed.
If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: would you say i deserved it or would you say i got griefed? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1843
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Equus wrote:Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all. If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks. Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time.
Everybody in EvE can hire mercs for self defense, now there are mechanics to help cooperation between the various figures.
However if you are a miner and hire mercs to defend you, they can do nothing even when their targets comes to kill the paying customer else it's :concord: A mechanism should exist so that I don't have to wait for the other guy (invariably in NPC or 3 alts corp, they being the same who demand others to be social!) to get flagged also to me so that I can shoot at them.
As of now this mechanism only exists for those being in the same corp of the miner, it'd be cool the flag was extensible at least to the hired mercs.
Then let's see who comes crying on the forums, eh? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
496
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:21:00 -
[76] - Quote
Homo Jesus wrote:Tippia wrote:Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy. Yep, who cares what a random know-nothing thinks will happen. Crimewatch is easy mode for freighter pilots. You'll be able to fly around anywhere you want with whatever cargo in highsec because nobody's going to try ganking you. Why? Any freighter that gets ganked full of cargo will need freighters to scoop the loot. What happens when the freighter scoops the loot? With crimewatch, they'll get flagged to anyone and everyone and be kill on sight.
If this isn't dumbing down the game, I don't know what is. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Equus wrote:Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all. If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks. Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time. Everybody in EvE can hire mercs for self defense, now there are mechanics to help cooperation between the various figures. However if you are a miner and hire mercs to defend you, they can do nothing even when their targets comes to kill the paying customer else it's :concord: A mechanism should exist so that I don't have to wait for the other guy (invariably in NPC or 3 alts corp, they being the same who demand others to be social!) to get flagged also to me so that I can shoot at them. As of now this mechanism only exists for those being in the same corp of the miner, it'd be cool the flag was extensible at least to the hired mercs. Then let's see who comes crying on the forums, eh?
Hm? If you are mining with a corpmate sitting nearby in a combat ship and someone comes along and takes something out of your can then your corpmate can alpha him into oblivion. What more do you want? The miner never sees action in this case or even "danger" but he is able to participate if he "chooses" to. Why do we need to hire other people into that? Its allready pretty one sided, dont you think?
Do you want a way to shoot a guy that "might" harm your mining in predefence without the guy actually doing something? Are you serious? |
Mutant Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:28:00 -
[78] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Mutant Caldari wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. ^This. Dear carebears, Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard. P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold? Let me dissect this banter: 1) Those who can flip are not stupid, they can flip those newer characters doing professions (typically mining) with stats and skills which are incompatible with PvP. In the best case they have tank skills trained to IV (I am being optimistic here), just the bare minimum drone skills to kill belt NPCs and zero gunnery. 2) I have yet to see a can flipper EVER staying in there in anticipation of a "good fite" when he sees the other guy warps away. You are doing a big disservice to the category if you really pretend they make themselves sitting ducks waiting for the flipped guy to return with a real PvP ship. 3) The rare, extremely rare cases the responding target vaguely - and I mean it - looks like not dying then the can flippers *always* *always* go off themselves to reship. I myself got one of them flipping my can (back in 2009, I was like 1 week in the game) and when I came back in a T1 fitted Rifter (so dangerous I had to fit a MAPC just to be able to fit guns) he warped out when my cap depleted (could not kill his tank) and came back with a Vaga and 4 RR alts (I did not spot Falcons ). Anyway anyone who ever undocked knows how such category play, stop teasing like that, nobody believes you. As a new player, is it hard to read up on mechanics? Especially after the first, second and third time you lose a ship to them? A Mackinaw has an ore bay with, what, 35k m3? You shouldn't be jet can mining in that anyway. Retriever's is 27,500 with Barge 5. They've basically killed can flipping at this point with the introduction of the massive ore bays not to mention just being able to drop the ore in an Orca if you are in a Hulk and mining with corpies. As I said, if you don't have a PvP capable ship or corp backup you can always leave the system and continue mining elsewhere without actually engaging the can flipper. Is that concept really that hard to grasp for you guys?
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MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:38:00 -
[79] - Quote
I think the new Idea for Crime watch is a bad idea as other people have said it makes ganking freighters in hi sec and stealing there loot impossible. I don't mine in empire so I don't know how bad the can flipping is. I really don't care that is something I don't want to do. If the flagging systems would extend to the fleet that the person is in I think it would make both the flippers and flippies happy as that is fair IMO. If the purposed idea of Crime watch goes through the population of eve will get dumber as they will expect CCP to hold their hands from the beginning of the game to the end like some other MMO and the whine threads on the forum will get more ridiculous as people say well we got this lets try to get this now till all of Hi sec is pvp free in any form. At what point in this game do people take responsibility for there own actions of not knowing game mechanics or refusing to use them as it will hamper there isk/hr? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4363
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:40:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.
Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...
You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins. There is ample mechanics in place to allow for all manner of scenarios, plans, strategies and results.
How is this not in the spirit of Eve?
Being able to take part in a fight without being a legal target isn't "in the spirit of Eve" and let's not pretend that it is, thanks. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:41:00 -
[81] - Quote
MIrple wrote:I think the new Idea for Crime watch is a bad idea as other people have said it makes ganking freighters in hi sec and stealing there loot impossible. I don't mine in empire so I don't know how bad the can flipping is. I really don't care that is something I don't want to do. If the flagging systems would extend to the fleet that the person is in I think it would make both the flippers and flippies happy as that is fair IMO. If the purposed idea of Crime watch goes through the population of eve will get dumber as they will expect CCP to hold their hands from the beginning of the game to the end like some other MMO and the whine threads on the forum will get more ridiculous as people say well we got this lets try to get this now till all of Hi sec is pvp free in any form. At what point in this game do people take responsibility for there own actions of not knowing game mechanics or refusing to use them as it will hamper there isk/hr?
Flagging for the whole gang would not be fair at all like we have seen in the previous exploits around wardecs + missions for example > loftyscam.
CCPs Greyscale wrote: "The "lofty scam" has been neutered in Empyrean Age (gang membership now has no bearing on aggression rules) so this is no longer an issue (!)"
I dont see why we should fix what have been fixed. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4363
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:43:00 -
[82] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Flagging for the whole gang would not be fair at all like we have seen in the previous exploits around wardecs + missions for example > loftyscam.
CCPs Greyscale wrote: "The "lofty scam" has been neutered in Empyrean Age (gang membership now has no bearing on aggression rules) so this is no longer an issue (!)"
I dont see why we should fix what have been fixed.
on the other hand, not flagging RR and boosting alts and all that crap just makes everything hilariously one-sided "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
Altrue wrote:I don't see what's the point : You steal someting in the middle of a public space, it should be normal if others were allowed to try to stop you.
And then, piracy in high sec would make you feel like a true pirate : after commiting your act and being discovered, you have to escape with half of the universe behind you.
Also don't tell me that this change leaves you less possibilities to PvP. What you're practicing : suicide ganks, can flipping miners, etc... Can't be called PvP, it's butchery. And you're probably doing that because you can't do some true PvP with true targets.
So, basically you're using a derived part of PvP based on lack of knowledge / skill from the target.. that's acceptable, but don't expect things to stay how they are : broken because the risk/reward is in your favor in most of the cases (and when it is not, you engaged thinking it was).
Can flipper/suicide gankers tears best tears.
Edit : Oh and basically CCP wants to make money. This point is also acceptable and expected. Griefing noobs or people in general that were not expecting that kind of thing, create unsub : less money. That's normal to see CCP fixing this part.
totally agree, well said. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:43:00 -
[84] - Quote
Andski wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.
Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...
You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins. There is ample mechanics in place to allow for all manner of scenarios, plans, strategies and results.
How is this not in the spirit of Eve? Being able to take part in a fight without being a legal target isn't "in the spirit of Eve" and let's not pretend that it is, thanks.
If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4364
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:45:00 -
[85] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target.
Or maybe you could put my post into context rather than reading it selectively and replying with something that's completely unrelated to the subject matter. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:50:00 -
[86] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:People have to stop mixing up things. Can flipping is one of the few ways to attack newbies in high sec without getting concorded but that doesn't mean that can flipping as a mechanic is "broken" or "without risk".
If you can flip a whole mining corps with players who've been in the game for years and have lots of SP, ships and (hopefully) experience to counter it then it becomes a tad different. The game mechanics DO favour the defender, they can choose to attack... or not, they can choose to attack with multiple pilots in their corp... or not. That's also where the real profit is in can flipping; Older pilots coming back in shiny ships and then get killed/ransomed. a "proper" can flipper doesn't care about your retriever or Itty 5, he cares about the bling stuff you come back in or your corp mates in their CNRs.
There's a few reasons why can flipping will be messed up with the new system:
- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.
- because CCP is unable to code it properly (or unwilling to put the time into it as they "don't see the need", as they're carebears themselves) you end up with only one aggression timer. As it is now you can be aggressed to the whole corp for 5 minutes while still being aggressed to the guy that attacked you for another 10, giving you a window of opportunity. Removing that (or thinking it's wrong., like CCP seems to do) means you cater for the dumb people, the lazy carebears and is mostly about being too lazy to code it properly.
Can flipping (relative) newbies is a bit sad but that doesn't mean that as a mechanic it's broken or needs changing, it really does favour the defender (assuming the defender has the SP and playtime to be able to create a proper reaction). Thing is ofcourse that many miners CHOOSE to stay clueless and unprepared even after years of playing, and CCP should never cater for that mindset.
If you get flipped you have a choice, if you don't want to get can flipped you also have a choice. If you choose to AND use jetcans AND attack the ones who stole a bit of ore from you THEN you might get in trouble if you CHOOSE to not be prepared. So yes, it does favour the defender.
How does it favor the defender when the can flipper gets to choose his targets? He can simply pick someone who does not have the capacity to retaliate against him. So how does can flipping favor the victim again?
This is why what CCP is doing is such a great change. Can flippers can no longer choose targets where they will have 0 risk of retaliation. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
Andski wrote:Butzewutze wrote:If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target. Or maybe you could put my post into context rather than reading it selectively and replying with something that's completely unrelated to the subject matter.
I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.
If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4364
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:54:00 -
[88] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:How does it favor the defender when the can flipper gets to choose his targets? He can simply pick someone who does not have the capacity to retaliate against him. So how does can flipping favor the victim again?
This is why what CCP is doing is such a great change. Can flippers can no longer choose targets where they will have 0 risk of retaliation.
otoh, "defenseless" mining ships don't tend to jetcan mine since anybody in a Hulk or Covetor ~generally~ knows better. Mackinaws/Retrievers don't need to jetcan mine, Skiffs/Procurers just serve as good canflip bait.
non-barge mining ships can easily be used as bait.
crimewatch is stupid "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4364
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:55:00 -
[89] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.
If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure.
i'll just stop you there and let you know that I was referring to RR in the context of fighting suspect-flagged players "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:57:00 -
[90] - Quote
Andski wrote:Butzewutze wrote:I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.
If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure. i'll just stop you there and let you know that I was referring to RR in the context of fighting suspect-flagged players
Then i just misunderstood you. Sorry |
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