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Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 04:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
This person, Pipa Porto, told me that the upcomming crimewatch changes will break can flipping and I'm curious as to how. Can anyone explain it? I couldn't get an answer from Pipa. Here is the quote from another thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1796952#post1796952
Pipa Porto wrote:
HS PVP is available in 4 forms. Can Flipping. Wardecs. Suicide Ganks. AWOXing.
Wardecs are broken. This will break Can Flipping. So all that's left is Suicide Ganks. And since Ganking Freighters will be effectively impossible to make profitable (your looting freighter will be globally flagged, thus dead), Guess what's gonna increase in frequency..
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
635
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 04:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Awoxing, think I got the answer.
At least till that gets nerfed. Luckily all my hi sec capitals and stuff are hidden so I don't have to worry much. Suppose people with deadspace and officer gear would have to. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 05:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. |
Alara IonStorm
2972
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 05:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk?
Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.
Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim.
Please tell me the zero risk was ironic. |
Ned Black
Driders
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk was ironic.
Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.
If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
Are you so dense to believe that?
Canflippers have it so hard
I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.
Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?
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Sentamon
170
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
lol thanks for the laugh ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Qel Hoth
New Eden Order Sev3rance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?
In this particular kill, there was little risk... which is why you were targeted.
Don't want to get ganked? Make yourself a harder target.
In a player corp, your entire corp can attack the can flipper as soon as he loots your wreck. The flipper can't attack ANYONE until you or a corpmate shoots him first, and even then he can only attack those that are aggressing him, anyone else and he gets concorded.
EVE is not safe, nor was it meant to be, and the less friends you have the less safe it becomes. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
294
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
They were talking about changing how aggression and such works and they wanted to remove target specific shoot rights to make it more clear who you can shoot and what consequences that will have. This would mean that can flipping would mark you as a criminal and anyone would be able to shoot you, not just the owners corp. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1841
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:This person, Pipa Porto, told me that the upcomming crimewatch changes will "break" can flipping and I'm curious as to how. Can anyone explain it? I couldn't get an answer from Pipa. Here is the quote from another thread. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1796952#post1796952Pipa Porto wrote:
HS PVP is available in 4 forms. Can Flipping. Wardecs. Suicide Ganks. AWOXing.
Wardecs are broken. This will break Can Flipping. So all that's left is Suicide Ganks. And since Ganking Freighters will be effectively impossible to make profitable (your looting freighter will be globally flagged, thus dead), Guess what's gonna increase in frequency..
It will be game breaking, because those who are in for the "PvP" in reality are just in to crack someone else's balls without retort.
They don't can flip a guy in a Vagabond, but the guy in a mining Osprey.
After the change, they would actually have a chance to get all that so hard sought after "PvP". But for them, PvP is "I kill you to pulp, you won't fire a shot" or else they dock.
Their first name is Lionheart
The second is Hypocrite coward. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Alara IonStorm
2972
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ned Black wrote: Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.
What they are after and what they get are too entirely different things. I have spelled out a bunch of advantages in the victims favor, it is up to them to use those advantages to win.
Ned Black wrote: If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.
They would not flip if the victim won and since they have the advantage they can win.
malcovas Henderson wrote:Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? CCP is actively cracking down on people who target newer players who do not understand the games mechanics yet. That is in CCP's definition of griefing now.
A more skilled and informed player could return in a proper ship and use the advantages I spelled out to get an almost sure kill. CCP just have to make sure Newbies have the protection they need, with that it is very easy for a smart victim to turn the tables.
If you came back in a Vexor today do you think you would have lost that fight?
Sentamon wrote: lol thanks for the laugh
When you stop laughing reread it then use all those tips to your advantage. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't see what's the point : You steal someting in the middle of a public space, it should be normal if others were allowed to try to stop you.
And then, piracy in high sec would make you feel like a true pirate : after commiting your act and being discovered, you have to escape with half of the universe behind you.
Also don't tell me that this change leaves you less possibilities to PvP. What you're practicing : suicide ganks, can flipping miners, etc... Can't be called PvP, it's butchery. And you're probably doing that because you can't do some true PvP with true targets.
So, basically you're using a derived part of PvP based on lack of knowledge / skill from the target.. that's acceptable, but don't expect things to stay how they are : broken because the risk/reward is in your favor in most of the cases (and when it is not, you engaged thinking it was).
Can flipper/suicide gankers tears best tears.
Death to trees !!! *Axe* *Chop, chop, chop...* You may understand what I'm talking about ;) |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 06:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Qel Hoth wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? In this particular kill, there was little risk... which is why you were targeted. Don't want to get ganked? Make yourself a harder target. In a player corp, your entire corp can attack the can flipper as soon as he loots your wreck. The flipper can't attack ANYONE until you or a corpmate shoots him first, and even then he can only attack those that are aggressing him, anyone else and he gets concorded. EVE is not safe, nor was it meant to be, and the less friends you have the less safe it becomes.
This is the Target can flippers look for. I was still in a NPC corp. Still learning the game. So I had no corp mates to turn to. TBH I detest canflippers even more than I detest Gankers. At least Gankers prey on characters that should know the game a bit better.
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malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 07:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? CCP is actively cracking down on people who target newer players who do not understand the games mechanics yet. That is in CCP's definition of griefing now. A more skilled and informed player could return in a proper ship and use the advantages I spelled out to get an almost sure kill. CCP just have to make sure Newbies have the protection they need, with that it is very easy for a smart victim to turn the tables. If you came back in a Vexor today do you think you would have lost that fight?
I understand what you are trying to say, but in reality the canflipper is still griefing newbs away from protected areas.
I Bait canflippers from time to time. I use a brand new alt in a bantem. mining into a can I dropped. Try it one day, and even you'd have to reconsider your stance on this matter. |
Alara IonStorm
2972
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 07:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote: This is the Target can flippers look for. I was still in a NPC corp. Still learning the game. So I had no corp mates to turn to. TBH I detest canflippers even more than I detest Gankers. At least Gankers prey on characters that should know the game a bit better.
TBH I too detest can flippers for entirely the same reason as you but opposite circumstances.
I went out canflipping in a mix Logi / Combat Arbitrator when I was new with a friend I met. He wanted to kill things in an Itty and I helped him take out a Retty with my Reps but his Corp Mate attacked me with a Tyrannis, my first T2 Ship Kill. So later I decided to do it on my own and after 20 or so systems I got a bite from a Cruiser in my now full combat fit Arbitrator. It went down fast and then he came in hauler still aggressed so I smashed that too. Looking at the mails he was a newbie so I convo'd the guy and paid him back for his troubles, apologized and tried to explain how I did it so it wouldn't happen again. I still feel bad to about it to this day, worse that it was a starter system (I did not know the rules about that at the time and found out later.)
I think I killed a Dessy as well, after that I was done with can tipping. I realized mostly new players bit the bait and there weren't any fun fights like I read about on C&P. I tried killing flippers using a bait Mining Vexor with 3 T1 show Drones and Duel Webs, it worked remarkably well.
I don't like how can flipping works but think they should find a rework to the system that gives fun fights instead. I do like their fleet aggression idea. I do stand by my post that flippers are very easy to kill for a knowledgeable player. The trick with that would be removing newbie flak. Not that I would ever can tip again personally, it just isn't a fun way to get fights. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
494
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 07:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm more concerned about the implications this would have on freighter ganking and looting. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
125
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 07:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
People have to stop mixing up things. Can flipping is one of the few ways to attack newbies in high sec without getting concorded but that doesn't mean that can flipping as a mechanic is "broken" or "without risk".
If you can flip a whole mining corps with players who've been in the game for years and have lots of SP, ships and (hopefully) experience to counter it then it becomes a tad different. The game mechanics DO favour the defender, they can choose to attack... or not, they can choose to attack with multiple pilots in their corp... or not. That's also where the real profit is in can flipping; Older pilots coming back in shiny ships and then get killed/ransomed. a "proper" can flipper doesn't care about your retriever or Itty 5, he cares about the bling stuff you come back in or your corp mates in their CNRs.
There's a few reasons why can flipping will be messed up with the new system:
- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.
- because CCP is unable to code it properly (or unwilling to put the time into it as they "don't see the need", as they're carebears themselves) you end up with only one aggression timer. As it is now you can be aggressed to the whole corp for 5 minutes while still being aggressed to the guy that attacked you for another 10, giving you a window of opportunity. Removing that (or thinking it's wrong., like CCP seems to do) means you cater for the dumb people, the lazy carebears and is mostly about being too lazy to code it properly.
Can flipping (relative) newbies is a bit sad but that doesn't mean that as a mechanic it's broken or needs changing, it really does favour the defender (assuming the defender has the SP and playtime to be able to create a proper reaction). Thing is ofcourse that many miners CHOOSE to stay clueless and unprepared even after years of playing, and CCP should never cater for that mindset.
If you get flipped you have a choice, if you don't want to get can flipped you also have a choice. If you choose to AND use jetcans AND attack the ones who stole a bit of ore from you THEN you might get in trouble if you CHOOSE to not be prepared. So yes, it does favour the defender. Amat victoria curam. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:People have to stop mixing up things. Can flipping is one of the few ways to attack newbies in high sec without getting concorded but that doesn't mean that can flipping as a mechanic is "broken" or "without risk".
If you can flip a whole mining corps with players who've been in the game for years and have lots of SP, ships and (hopefully) experience to counter it then it becomes a tad different. The game mechanics DO favour the defender, they can choose to attack... or not, they can choose to attack with multiple pilots in their corp... or not. That's also where the real profit is in can flipping; Older pilots coming back in shiny ships and then get killed/ransomed. a "proper" can flipper doesn't care about your retriever or Itty 5, he cares about the bling stuff you come back in or your corp mates in their CNRs.
There's a few reasons why can flipping will be messed up with the new system:
- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.
- because CCP is unable to code it properly (or unwilling to put the time into it as they "don't see the need", as they're carebears themselves) you end up with only one aggression timer. As it is now you can be aggressed to the whole corp for 5 minutes while still being aggressed to the guy that attacked you for another 10, giving you a window of opportunity. Removing that (or thinking it's wrong., like CCP seems to do) means you cater for the dumb people, the lazy carebears and is mostly about being too lazy to code it properly.
Can flipping (relative) newbies is a bit sad but that doesn't mean that as a mechanic it's broken or needs changing, it really does favour the defender (assuming the defender has the SP and playtime to be able to create a proper reaction). Thing is ofcourse that many miners CHOOSE to stay clueless and unprepared even after years of playing, and CCP should never cater for that mindset.
If you get flipped you have a choice, if you don't want to get can flipped you also have a choice. If you choose to AND use jetcans AND attack the ones who stole a bit of ore from you THEN you might get in trouble if you CHOOSE to not be prepared. So yes, it does favour the defender.
You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from.
For the same reason people use scouts, alts and spies in 0.0 or anywhere else, to control the scenario. If you jump into low sec or 0.0 you can check local and know what you're up against, if you're in high sec with 100 ppl in local and you're aggressed to everyone that creates many unknowns when you decide to commit to a fight, especially as those potential 100 can choose the exact timing of entering the scenario, and I'm not even going to mention the fcking ret@rdo idea of having some of the defending logistics NOT be aggressed in certain situations.
Amat victoria curam. |
Tarassse
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.
The mechanic is sh*t atm. Let's suppose I'm in a mining fleet with a few allymates. A canflipper comes by and steals ore in a can belonging to a guy who is not in my corp, but is in my fleet AND in my alliance. I cannot attack the canflipper. How is that even logical? You would think you could help your allymates other than just remoting them, hoping for the canflipper to make a mistake and attack you.
To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5.
Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it.
Remember the video "Butterfly effect"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo
You can help the miner against the pirates, even though you don't know him. I don't see why it should be possible only in low/null. It's about time. |
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Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
from what I can tell they want to make it so ganking is all but impossible...(See mainstreaming EVE). So if you can flip someone an flag, that will mean everyone in HS can kill you, not just that person. Apparently miners are going into the business of "professional victims R US."
So the next stage is CCP making it so HS will be EVE's version of wow's Astrinarr.... I had this discussion in Scope chat. Apparently miners dont see why it's fair that "THEY" have to get payback, when its only fair that everyone in EVE should be allowed too....
Give me ******* strength lol I hope to hell they dont do this, Even CCP cant be that stupid to make this wow in space. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Qel Hoth wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? In this particular kill, there was little risk... which is why you were targeted. Don't want to get ganked? Make yourself a harder target. In a player corp, your entire corp can attack the can flipper as soon as he loots your wreck. The flipper can't attack ANYONE until you or a corpmate shoots him first, and even then he can only attack those that are aggressing him, anyone else and he gets concorded. EVE is not safe, nor was it meant to be, and the less friends you have the less safe it becomes.
That was the old EVE mate, the "new" EVE is going to be nice, friendly an cuddly. eg wow in space. Again a simple matter of self responsibility, an i garentee you every single miner will utterly ignore it. I know in Scope you tell them time an time an time again to ignore ninjas, an 30 seconds ...
"waaaaa gimmi a new ship this bad man is griefing me, so I reported him. Will CCP give me a new ship?....
mind boggling. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tarassse wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp. The mechanic is sh*t atm. Let's suppose I'm in a mining fleet with a few allymates. A canflipper comes by and steals ore in a can belonging to a guy who is not in my corp, but is in my fleet AND in my alliance. I cannot attack the canflipper. How is that even logical? You would think you could help your allymates other than just remoting them, hoping for the canflipper to make a mistake and attack you. To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5. Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it. Remember the video "Butterfly effect"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7NrxoYou can help the miner against the pirates, even though you don't know him. I don't see why it should be possible only in low/null. It's about time.
I'm perfectly ok with expanding aggression to alliance level, I'm not ok with expanding it to "everyone".
Amat victoria curam. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from. For the same reason people use scouts, alts and spies in 0.0 or anywhere else, to control the scenario. If you jump into low sec or 0.0 you can check local and know what you're up against, if you're in high sec with 100 ppl in local and you're aggressed to everyone that creates many unknowns when you decide to commit to a fight, especially as those potential 100 can choose the exact timing of entering the scenario, and I'm not even going to mention the fcking ret@rdo idea of having some of the defending logistics NOT be aggressed in certain situations.
You see. You want the control. Only commit to Canflipping when you KNOW you have the upper hand. It is generally called bullying. aka cowardice. This is comfirmed by the tears generated by this mechanic. Now you see Canflippers too scared to perform the action, because of the potential consequences. All this from people who want "PVP" |
baltec1
Bat Country
1893
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
This will make my pvp haulers life very hard indeed. Biggest upset however will be looting people wrecks that dont belong to you, which I bet will get far more nubs killed than currently die to jetcan accidents. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Great news, been waiting a long time for that.
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets.
Awwww is that tears, I can no longer steal with no comeback there there
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rats wrote:Melodee619 wrote:The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets. Awwww is that tears, I can no longer steal with no comeback there there Tal
thank you for just reinforcing my point, ... miners you lot remind me of Millwall football club, no bottle,leg it at first sign of an adult.... |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1841
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from. For the same reason people use scouts, alts and spies in 0.0 or anywhere else, to control the scenario. If you jump into low sec or 0.0 you can check local and know what you're up against, if you're in high sec with 100 ppl in local and you're aggressed to everyone that creates many unknowns when you decide to commit to a fight, especially as those potential 100 can choose the exact timing of entering the scenario, and I'm not even going to mention the fcking ret@rdo idea of having some of the defending logistics NOT be aggressed in certain situations.
Well, miners have to deal with 100 in local too, each of those 100 can kill them just for a laugh and in complete safety (fear the retriever offensive POWAH!).
So what? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1841
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:This will make my pvp haulers life very hard indeed. Biggest upset however will be looting people wrecks that dont belong to you, which I bet will get far more nubs killed than currently die to jetcan accidents.
Same advice given to miners by you and the other resident though men: loot while aligned, make bookmarks, fit a tank. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Radius Prime
Aliastra Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Crime watch devs assured us changes would be well documented before any changes would be implemented. This discussion is irrelevant till they do. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
257
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk was ironic. Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple. If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.
It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Ned Black wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk was ironic. Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple. If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all. It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be.
Which they do, after all god forbid they had to do something for themselves lol |
baltec1
Bat Country
1893
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 08:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:This will make my pvp haulers life very hard indeed. Biggest upset however will be looting people wrecks that dont belong to you, which I bet will get far more nubs killed than currently die to jetcan accidents. Same advice given to miners by you and the other resident though men: loot while aligned, make bookmarks, fit a tank. I am able to do it and I am not even a ganker (I just have fun ninjaing T2 salvage in their face), figures.
I flip cans to get the fight so warping off isnt very smart on that front. Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. This change will expose a lot more to the bad guys guns while the nasty people who flip cans for fights will continue to do so. Once again, the bears are fighting for something they think will make them safer but will end up still being killed and their tears of rage will be all the greater for it. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Well, miners have to deal with 100 in local too, each of those 100 can kill them just for a laugh and in complete safety (fear the retriever offensive POWAH!).
So what?
No, they don't.
First of all it's not safe at all, if they suicide gank they lose their ships (which can be avoided if only people would CHOOSE to tank their mining ships, the old Hulk could easily get 25k EHP on its own, more than enough to require 3 tornados to gank it resulting in it not being a target). Secondly if they got can flipped it's because they CHOSE to use cans in the first place, then they have the CHOICE to attack the flipper and they can CHOOSE to use as many corp members as they want.
Not my fault Miners adopted this autistic idea that they play eve in solo mode and not be in an active, non-zombie corp while not being prepared. Ignorance and zero-effort should not be rewarded, active non-idiot miners did perfectly fine through Hulkageddons and can flips. Amat victoria curam. |
Ned Black
Driders
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets.
Actually, nobody is keeping you from doing that can flip... you can go right ahead and do it... but if you do then there will open season on your arse... and personally I find that very fun indeed.
But I guess its a bit like the remove local discussion... removing local from nullsec would introduce real risk, and the people crying the hardest about that are usually the ones calling the people that wants to be rid of local cowards... yet they display in every way that the biggest chickens of the bunch are themselves... same here... the ones crying the hardest here are the ones that suddely have to face actual risk and concequence of their actions.
I welcome crimewatch even if I wont be around to see it in action :p
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1841
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Well, miners have to deal with 100 in local too, each of those 100 can kill them just for a laugh and in complete safety (fear the retriever offensive POWAH!).
So what? No, they don't. First of all it's not safe at all, if they suicide gank they lose their ships (which can be avoided if only people would CHOOSE to tank their mining ships, the old Hulk could easily get 25k EHP on its own, more than enough to require 3 tornados to gank it resulting in it not being a target). Secondly if they got can flipped it's because they CHOSE to use cans in the first place, then they have the CHOICE to attack the flipper and they can CHOOSE to use as many corp members as they want. Not my fault Miners adopted this autistic idea that they play eve in solo mode and not be in an active, non-zombie corp while not being prepared. Ignorance and zero-effort should not be rewarded, active non-idiot miners did perfectly fine through Hulkageddons and can flips.
1) I don't know of ANY ganker worth his name who does not pre-scan the ships and cherry picks those with bad tank (usually the case) / using stupid deadspace small shield booster and so on. So the "which can be avoided" is mooth as it's you who select who to gank not vice versa.
2) You talk like you are attacking 3 years old players who learned better than to jet can. No, those who get flipped are newbs or bads (bads go farm other bads after all, in other MMOs they'd be laughed after and their guild would gain a bad name).
Then there's this often GD written "advice" of leaving drones out on active, and guess what happens next? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
571
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
The changes will do 2 things:
A: Committing minor criminal acts (i.e. can flipping in this case) will mark you as suspect. This makes you attackable by all. B: People will be prevented from stealing from cans, unless they turn their safeties off. Not a 'click through' dialog box, but a 'go here and turn there options off, then they're off until you turn them back on'.
At least, if the fanfest presentation was anything to go by. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4359
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:41:00 -
[40] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:They don't can flip a guy in a Vagabond
that's probably because vagabonds aren't well-known for being used to mine
i'm glad we have cleared that up "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4359
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tarassse wrote:To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5.
Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it.
flipping a can doesn't get you a GCC, so it is not a crime "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 09:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:1) I don't know of ANY ganker worth his name who does not pre-scan the ships and cherry picks those with bad tank (usually the case) / using stupid deadspace small shield booster and so on. So the "which can be avoided" is mooth as it's you who select who to gank not vice versa.
2) You talk like you are attacking 3 years old players who learned better than to jet can. No, those who get flipped are newbs or bads (bads go farm other bads after all, in other MMOs they'd be laughed after and their guild would gain a bad name).
Then there's this often GD written "advice" of leaving drones out on active, and guess what happens next?
1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem?
2) I have done, although not on this char obviously, for years and years. According to my KB for those chars my main targets were BCs, apart from that it's full of BSs, the odd HAC and faction fetish stuff. Only a minority were actual mining related ships (hulks, haulers and orcas) simply because they refused to pay ransom. Most of the targets are failfit ofcourse but that's a choice by those carebears. No one denies them access to forums etc to learn how to fit ships.
Not going to state it's amazing high quality PVP (it's fun while it makes nice cash) but the "lol, it's silly pvp" is far from the truth.
Also, drones set to aggressive do NOT attack can flippers just because they nicked some ore. That's just another myth kept alive because of a lack of effort&knowledge. In case of a can flip drones only attack if the miner wanted them to, if a miner tells you otherwise he's just trying to hide the fact that he was dumb. Drones will only attack on aggression but as the can flipper can't shoot the miner before the miner decides to attack him drones are a non-factor. Amat victoria curam. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:1) I don't know of ANY ganker worth his name who does not pre-scan the ships and cherry picks those with bad tank (usually the case) / using stupid deadspace small shield booster and so on. So the "which can be avoided" is mooth as it's you who select who to gank not vice versa.
2) You talk like you are attacking 3 years old players who learned better than to jet can. No, those who get flipped are newbs or bads (bads go farm other bads after all, in other MMOs they'd be laughed after and their guild would gain a bad name).
Then there's this often GD written "advice" of leaving drones out on active, and guess what happens next? 1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem? 2) I have done, although not on this char obviously, for years and years. According to my KB for those chars my main targets were BCs, apart from that it's full of BSs, the odd HAC and faction fetish stuff. Only a minority were actual mining related ships (hulks, haulers and orcas) simply because they refused to pay ransom. Most of the targets are failfit ofcourse but that's a choice by those carebears. No one denies them access to forums etc to learn how to fit ships. Not going to state it's amazing high quality PVP (it's fun while it makes nice cash) but the "lol, it's silly pvp" is far from the truth. Also, drones set to aggressive do NOT attack can flippers just because they nicked some ore. That's just another myth kept alive because of a lack of effort&knowledge. In case of a can flip drones only attack if the miner wanted them to, if a miner tells you otherwise he's just trying to hide the fact that he was dumb. Drones will only attack on aggression but as the can flipper can't shoot the miner before the miner decides to attack him drones are a non-factor.
FINALLY!! someone that understands, well said mate. Case in point tonight I was in Agel an saw 12 macks in ICE belt, so I scanned each one, an they all had maxed out extenders so I didnt bother cos it just wasnt worth it...
"and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it" |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
96
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
Andski wrote:Tarassse wrote:To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5.
Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it. flipping a can doesn't get you a GCC, so it is not a crime
Thats going to change in Crimewatch 2.0, at least assuming the development hasnt changed since fan fest. But during fan fest according to the speaker, in CrimeWatch 2.0 if you can flip you become a criminal to everyone and can be attacked by anyone. It doesn't get you concorded, but it does open your ass nice and wide.
I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps who might choose to persue criminals. It makes the profession of can flipping a bit more dangerous. Not sure the risk vs. reward is really appropriate since can flipping is a pretty low income profession unless you get stupid lucky. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1842
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:24:00 -
[45] - Quote
Andski wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:They don't can flip a guy in a Vagabond that's probably because vagabonds aren't well-known for being used to mine i'm glad we have cleared that up
Most of all, they are not known for being a large and defensless target. Which is what "Sunday PvPers" are after. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jonah Gravenstein
738
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:Crime watch devs assured us changes would be well documented before any changes would be implemented. This discussion is irrelevant till they do.
CCP, Eve, well documented, does anyone else see the glaring error here?
I like the fact that there is no manual and that players have to figure stuff out for themselves, zero documentation is a feature, don't change it War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4359
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP
ftfy "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9093
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1842
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:
1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem?
It's not a problem for me, it's you who made it look like people go gank others without checking them out first.
Also, what you state is situationally true.
IE yesterday a guy getting out with a 16k EHP Retriever (a quite SP intensive setup) would not have been spared despite the incospiquous ship and big tank (for the ship). In fact both at Jita / Dodixie and Rens (expecially at the latter), 2 Ice harvesters were about 13M each, 2 T2 ice mining lasers were 10.5M. Add a DC 2, and T2 inv field and you are flying something that WILL get popped by 3 the basic dessies anyway.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1777
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:39:00 -
[50] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
You forgot the smilie face to show that you were joking.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
127
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:
1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem?
It's not a problem for me, it's you who made it look like people go gank others without checking them out first.
Where did I state that?
Amat victoria curam. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 10:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Altrue wrote:I don't see what's the point : You steal someting in the middle of a public space, it should be normal if others were allowed to try to stop you.
And then, piracy in high sec would make you feel like a true pirate : after commiting your act and being discovered, you have to escape with half of the universe behind you. That's why piracy almost extinct even IRL and that's why EVE is the only game I know where being a pirate doesn't mean suffering great disadvantages in every possible way, I'm not even saying about making living out of it or something.
Being carebear I am, I still think that killing unique trait of the game is just plain stupid.
P.S. Mentality these days... You are on your own in EVE, even in highsec. Who the hell ever told you otherwise so insistently that even CCP choose to believe that? |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
197
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:13:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:Actually, nobody is keeping you from doing that can flip... you can go right ahead and do it... but if you do then there will open season on your arse... and personally I find that very fun indeed.
But I guess its a bit like the remove local discussion... removing local from nullsec would introduce real risk, and the people crying the hardest about that are usually the ones calling the people that wants to be rid of local cowards... yet they display in every way that the biggest chickens of the bunch are themselves... same here... the ones crying the hardest here are the ones that suddely have to face actual risk and concequence of their actions.
I welcome crimewatch even if I wont be around to see it in action :p
I don't know about where you're from, but here, there's a huge difference between a misdemeanor and a felony. If a guy attacks somebody on the street, then sure, everybody and there cousin oughta try to stop the guy, at least.
But if a person tries to steal a piece of candy, and shortly thereafter has 25 people trying to beat the crap out of him, there's something a little wrong with that...
I don't think the can flipping itself is the problem. In my short time here, I've already been on both sides of the argument, and I don't think that "fixing" can flipping adds any fun to the game. It's people using it to take advantage of newbs that they seem most concerned about. And I can understand not wanting to grief the people starting out in this game, when they're just trying to figure out how to put ammo in their gun.
edit: And just to be obtuse..... Why would you jettison ore that you're planning to keep or sell...? :-) |
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ok so I'm new to this but wouldn't the proposed changes open up pvp for those who have never pvp'ed before?
If I see someone stealing and subsequebtly fighting in a belt im in, at the moment I can't join in but it seems that with these changes I could, ergo I would be pvp'ing where pre-change I would not be. Honestly this is one of the only ways I see myself pvp'ing any time soon in the future.
I also find it amusing that when people in high sec complain about can flippers and things, they are considered crying and told they should adapt or get out, but when the pvp'ers do it its fine? Whats that all about? I swear I've seen people posting in this thread telling people to adapt to changes before, but they cant seem to do it themselves? ironic. |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
98
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Andski wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP ftfy
I see and attacking a mining barge is full of risk? Its not risk PvP, the thief can fight back and win. Or is it unfair because a can flipper is not ready for PvP? Kind of like the mining barge?
See where im going with that? Its the same shoe just on the other foot. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4361
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:Andski wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP ftfy I see and attacking a mining barge is full of risk? Its not risk PvP, the thief can fight back and win. Or is it unfair because a can flipper is not ready for PvP? Kind of like the mining barge? See where im going with that? Its the same shoe just on the other foot.
except there's far more "risk" in attacking a mining barge or flipping a can than there ever will be in shooting can flippers with 10 neutral logi alts tailing you
if you think the solution to "low-risk PvP" is to introduce risk-free PvP to counter it, well, i don't know what to tell you "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Cara Rahl
Ore Reallocation Services
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:No longer can people steal your can
If something is jettisoned you throw it away, abandon and discard it as something unwanted. You lose your ownership of what you threw away. The very term "jettison" should already tell you that what you are doing can cause interaction with other people. To complain about this is pretty hilarious actually.
Imo it's been a mistake and ridiculously dumb thing to begin with that CCP added ownership to jettisoned containers (and wrecks while we're at it, which also should never have happened and not have hindered salvaging to become a proper profession and not this bastard thing it is today) and should never have been done. But I won't complain, cause it let's me shoot at people which is more fun anyway.
And the "risk" is what you make of it. On both sides. No one forces you to shoot and no one hinders you to bring RR. Not to mention that not everyone is a serious threat. |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 11:42:00 -
[58] - Quote
Andski wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:Andski wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP ftfy I see and attacking a mining barge is full of risk? Its not risk PvP, the thief can fight back and win. Or is it unfair because a can flipper is not ready for PvP? Kind of like the mining barge? See where im going with that? Its the same shoe just on the other foot. except there's far more "risk" in attacking a mining barge or flipping a can than there ever will be in shooting can flippers with 10 neutral logi alts tailing you if you think the solution to "low-risk PvP" is to introduce risk-free PvP to counter it, well, i don't know what to tell you
Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.
Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...
You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins.
How is this not in the spirit of Eve? |
Milla Lekarariba
Mustang Freight and Industry
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:15:00 -
[59] - Quote
well one quote I can think of for all this.....
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime
Personally although currently a carebear, to me it makes Piracy MORE attractive and more realistic..
but remember although perhaps the whole system could attack, I doubt EVERYONE will |
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:17:00 -
[60] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy.
Yep, who cares what a random know-nothing thinks will happen. What I want to know is, will sentries and the navy attack when suspect flagged? If I read and listened to what I think was said about it you'll just be flagged attackable to all players. I would kinda be against that but if the bears are happy with it so am I.
I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish.
Quote: Ok so I'm new to this but wouldn't the proposed changes open up pvp for those who have never pvp'ed before?
If I see someone stealing and subsequebtly fighting in a belt im in, at the moment I can't join in but it seems that with these changes I could, ergo I would be pvp'ing where pre-change I would not be. Honestly this is one of the only ways I see myself pvp'ing any time soon in the future.
I also find it amusing that when people in high sec complain about can flippers and things, they are considered crying and told they should adapt or get out, but when the pvp'ers do it its fine? Whats that all about? I swear I've seen people posting in this thread telling people to adapt to changes before, but they cant seem to do it themselves? ironic.
This is the reason I would kinda be against it. This poor guy would think he was looking at a fight happening in a belt he can join in on. The day after he would be here posting why the mechanic is broken while both of those guys were on comms laughing at him.
The last thing you want is the adaptable players getting their hands on you. |
|
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10052
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:20:00 -
[61] - Quote
Homo Jesus wrote:I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish. That'll still be classed as a separate thing and not theft, as the salvage doesn't belong to anyone.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Mutant Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:46:00 -
[62] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. ^This.
Dear carebears, Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard.
P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold? |
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Homo Jesus wrote:I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish. That'll still be classed as a separate thing and not theft, as the salvage doesn't belong to anyone.
Yeah, probably but what I mean is just flipping a can flags you to all the players that will shoot ninja THIEVES which typically results in.....people have just been asking for a long time to make salvaging a crime while not understanding that's really NOT a good thing for them.
No need to make salvaging a crime just flip one can, hang at a good spot until someone gets a wild hair up their butt and runs to shoot something. No more scanning missions and stealing, can baiting, flipping ore cans, etc is necessary to get half-wits to aggress. |
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
96
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
As a can flipper, I approve this message. There is absolutely risk involved and if someone is 'pirate baiting' (this happens) then you are set up to lose as you cannot effectively aggro their Remote Reps and you are a sitting duck against their corp.
While rare. people do set alts out on belts to lure flippers and kill them with ease. I have even done this to run other flippers out of systems I flip in. |
Alara IonStorm
2975
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. You forgot the smilie face to show that you were joking. I'm not. The mechanics give a massive advantage to the victim. If kept away from newbies and utilized by players Can Flippers become nothing.
I thought you would know that Mara, you always seem to know a lot about EVE. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 13:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Unofficially renaming greyscales little baby to Failwatch.
It fails at far more than just canflipping mechanics, after all. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
You lost me at Hi-sec PVP.
There is no Hi-sec PVP, there is only people who hide in Hi-sec, pretending to PVP.
I will always recommend the quick fix of finding a Low-sec gate. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?
I have a question for you. In this engagement, who fired the first shot? |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:36:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:[quote=Alara IonStorm]
Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.
If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.
Bullshit, its like you are saying all car dealers are assholes. Sure there are many assholes in that market but that doesnt mean "everybody" is an ass and carselling has to be removed. Same case here. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1843
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mutant Caldari wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. ^This. Dear carebears, Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard. P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold?
Let me dissect this banter:
1) Those who can flip are not stupid, they can flip those newer characters doing professions (typically mining) with stats and skills which are incompatible with PvP. In the best case they have tank skills trained to IV (I am being optimistic here), just the bare minimum drone skills to kill belt NPCs and zero gunnery.
2) I have yet to see a can flipper EVER staying in there in anticipation of a "good fite" when he sees the other guy warps away. You are doing a big disservice to the category if you really pretend they make themselves sitting ducks waiting for the flipped guy to return with a real PvP ship.
3) The rare, extremely rare cases the responding target vaguely - and I mean it - looks like not dying then the can flippers *always* *always* go off themselves to reship. I myself got one of them flipping my can (back in 2009, I was like 1 week in the game) and when I came back in a T1 fitted Rifter (so dangerous I had to fit a MAPC just to be able to fit guns) he warped out when my cap depleted (could not kill his tank) and came back with a Vaga and 4 RR alts (I did not spot Falcons ).
Anyway anyone who ever undocked knows how such category play, stop teasing like that, nobody believes you. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Equus
Royal Order of Security Specialists Late Night Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 14:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
So much BS in this thread.
First, griefing is not PvP, griefing is going after newbs, slow people and anyone who cannot defend themselves. This is not PvP, the griefers try and claim it is, but it's not. They all decry it's a cold universe, danger is everywhere! But they scan targets and go after the weak, they don't want a "real" fight, they want to "tears" and to **** someone off. So, while griefing can lead to PvP, if having that newb try and fight back can even be considered PvP, ganking, can flipping, and all other forms of griefing != PvP.
PvP means a fight, and a good one, popping someone in a couple shots can be fun but it is usually boring, that fight that went back and forth where you came out with < 5% structure, that was a good one. Griefers, sorry "high-sec PvP'ers" don't like these fights, if they thought you stood a chance at all they would not attack you.
On that note, in regards to can flipping itself, while I don't know if it warrants a GCC flag, ALL alliance, corp and even fleet mates should be able to shoot you. I am with a buddy, I am there for protection, do you think in real life, if I was with a friend and someone tried to steal from him that I wouldn't help beat the **** out of the thief?
Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
128
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
Equus wrote:Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all.
If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks.
Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time. Amat victoria curam. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:01:00 -
[73] - Quote
It seems that not all players understand canflipping. So here are the rules
Person A = miner Person B = pewpewguy
1. Person A mines into a secure can = Person B can do nothing except ganking > concord
2. Person A mines into a floatin can = Person B takes something out > now player A and his whole corp can shoot player B, but Player B can do nothing except if the miner takes the bait and shoots > then Player B is able to attack Player A. Btw. Player B's corp can do nothing the whole time except remoterepping what ofc. enable Player A to shoot at the remoterepping corpmate of Player B.
Pfew... not that simple. There are ways to be 100% safe:
1. Dont mine into a can. 2. Dont attack someone if he is red blinky because that usually means he is also able to shoot you.
So, to make this short:
A can flipper has to count on stupid decisions of the miner or there will be no fight at all for him.
There is no "ambush" of an innocent here: A miner has to take the first shot or has to steal something himself to get shot at.
If you steal something out of a can yourself then there will be a big fat warning window telling you something like "uh oh... watch out... u might get killed". If you ignore the window then then you deserve to be killed.
You should think about cans as a PVP-switch in other games. I can switch myself to "pvp" but that doesnt mean i can kill everybody from now on... it just means everybody is able to attack me and i can use self defence. Exactly the same here in eve.
|
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
Equus wrote:First, griefing is not PvP, griefing is going after newbs, slow people and anyone who cannot defend themselves. This is not PvP, the griefers try and claim it is, but it's not. They all decry it's a cold universe, danger is everywhere! But they scan targets and go after the weak, they don't want a "real" fight, they want to "tears" and to **** someone off. So, while griefing can lead to PvP, if having that newb try and fight back can even be considered PvP, ganking, can flipping, and all other forms of griefing != PvP.
Let me correct you. You don't think griefing is pvp but it actually is. If you take your time to read my other posts then you will see that can flipping is not griefing at all because the "victim" has to attack first to be killed.
If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: would you say i deserved it or would you say i got griefed? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1843
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Equus wrote:Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all. If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks. Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time.
Everybody in EvE can hire mercs for self defense, now there are mechanics to help cooperation between the various figures.
However if you are a miner and hire mercs to defend you, they can do nothing even when their targets comes to kill the paying customer else it's :concord: A mechanism should exist so that I don't have to wait for the other guy (invariably in NPC or 3 alts corp, they being the same who demand others to be social!) to get flagged also to me so that I can shoot at them.
As of now this mechanism only exists for those being in the same corp of the miner, it'd be cool the flag was extensible at least to the hired mercs.
Then let's see who comes crying on the forums, eh? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
496
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:21:00 -
[76] - Quote
Homo Jesus wrote:Tippia wrote:Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy. Yep, who cares what a random know-nothing thinks will happen. Crimewatch is easy mode for freighter pilots. You'll be able to fly around anywhere you want with whatever cargo in highsec because nobody's going to try ganking you. Why? Any freighter that gets ganked full of cargo will need freighters to scoop the loot. What happens when the freighter scoops the loot? With crimewatch, they'll get flagged to anyone and everyone and be kill on sight.
If this isn't dumbing down the game, I don't know what is. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Equus wrote:Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all. If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks. Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time. Everybody in EvE can hire mercs for self defense, now there are mechanics to help cooperation between the various figures. However if you are a miner and hire mercs to defend you, they can do nothing even when their targets comes to kill the paying customer else it's :concord: A mechanism should exist so that I don't have to wait for the other guy (invariably in NPC or 3 alts corp, they being the same who demand others to be social!) to get flagged also to me so that I can shoot at them. As of now this mechanism only exists for those being in the same corp of the miner, it'd be cool the flag was extensible at least to the hired mercs. Then let's see who comes crying on the forums, eh?
Hm? If you are mining with a corpmate sitting nearby in a combat ship and someone comes along and takes something out of your can then your corpmate can alpha him into oblivion. What more do you want? The miner never sees action in this case or even "danger" but he is able to participate if he "chooses" to. Why do we need to hire other people into that? Its allready pretty one sided, dont you think?
Do you want a way to shoot a guy that "might" harm your mining in predefence without the guy actually doing something? Are you serious? |
Mutant Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:28:00 -
[78] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Mutant Caldari wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. ^This. Dear carebears, Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard. P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold? Let me dissect this banter: 1) Those who can flip are not stupid, they can flip those newer characters doing professions (typically mining) with stats and skills which are incompatible with PvP. In the best case they have tank skills trained to IV (I am being optimistic here), just the bare minimum drone skills to kill belt NPCs and zero gunnery. 2) I have yet to see a can flipper EVER staying in there in anticipation of a "good fite" when he sees the other guy warps away. You are doing a big disservice to the category if you really pretend they make themselves sitting ducks waiting for the flipped guy to return with a real PvP ship. 3) The rare, extremely rare cases the responding target vaguely - and I mean it - looks like not dying then the can flippers *always* *always* go off themselves to reship. I myself got one of them flipping my can (back in 2009, I was like 1 week in the game) and when I came back in a T1 fitted Rifter (so dangerous I had to fit a MAPC just to be able to fit guns) he warped out when my cap depleted (could not kill his tank) and came back with a Vaga and 4 RR alts (I did not spot Falcons ). Anyway anyone who ever undocked knows how such category play, stop teasing like that, nobody believes you. As a new player, is it hard to read up on mechanics? Especially after the first, second and third time you lose a ship to them? A Mackinaw has an ore bay with, what, 35k m3? You shouldn't be jet can mining in that anyway. Retriever's is 27,500 with Barge 5. They've basically killed can flipping at this point with the introduction of the massive ore bays not to mention just being able to drop the ore in an Orca if you are in a Hulk and mining with corpies. As I said, if you don't have a PvP capable ship or corp backup you can always leave the system and continue mining elsewhere without actually engaging the can flipper. Is that concept really that hard to grasp for you guys?
|
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:38:00 -
[79] - Quote
I think the new Idea for Crime watch is a bad idea as other people have said it makes ganking freighters in hi sec and stealing there loot impossible. I don't mine in empire so I don't know how bad the can flipping is. I really don't care that is something I don't want to do. If the flagging systems would extend to the fleet that the person is in I think it would make both the flippers and flippies happy as that is fair IMO. If the purposed idea of Crime watch goes through the population of eve will get dumber as they will expect CCP to hold their hands from the beginning of the game to the end like some other MMO and the whine threads on the forum will get more ridiculous as people say well we got this lets try to get this now till all of Hi sec is pvp free in any form. At what point in this game do people take responsibility for there own actions of not knowing game mechanics or refusing to use them as it will hamper there isk/hr? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4363
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:40:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.
Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...
You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins. There is ample mechanics in place to allow for all manner of scenarios, plans, strategies and results.
How is this not in the spirit of Eve?
Being able to take part in a fight without being a legal target isn't "in the spirit of Eve" and let's not pretend that it is, thanks. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
|
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:41:00 -
[81] - Quote
MIrple wrote:I think the new Idea for Crime watch is a bad idea as other people have said it makes ganking freighters in hi sec and stealing there loot impossible. I don't mine in empire so I don't know how bad the can flipping is. I really don't care that is something I don't want to do. If the flagging systems would extend to the fleet that the person is in I think it would make both the flippers and flippies happy as that is fair IMO. If the purposed idea of Crime watch goes through the population of eve will get dumber as they will expect CCP to hold their hands from the beginning of the game to the end like some other MMO and the whine threads on the forum will get more ridiculous as people say well we got this lets try to get this now till all of Hi sec is pvp free in any form. At what point in this game do people take responsibility for there own actions of not knowing game mechanics or refusing to use them as it will hamper there isk/hr?
Flagging for the whole gang would not be fair at all like we have seen in the previous exploits around wardecs + missions for example > loftyscam.
CCPs Greyscale wrote: "The "lofty scam" has been neutered in Empyrean Age (gang membership now has no bearing on aggression rules) so this is no longer an issue (!)"
I dont see why we should fix what have been fixed. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4363
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:43:00 -
[82] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Flagging for the whole gang would not be fair at all like we have seen in the previous exploits around wardecs + missions for example > loftyscam.
CCPs Greyscale wrote: "The "lofty scam" has been neutered in Empyrean Age (gang membership now has no bearing on aggression rules) so this is no longer an issue (!)"
I dont see why we should fix what have been fixed.
on the other hand, not flagging RR and boosting alts and all that crap just makes everything hilariously one-sided "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
39
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
Altrue wrote:I don't see what's the point : You steal someting in the middle of a public space, it should be normal if others were allowed to try to stop you.
And then, piracy in high sec would make you feel like a true pirate : after commiting your act and being discovered, you have to escape with half of the universe behind you.
Also don't tell me that this change leaves you less possibilities to PvP. What you're practicing : suicide ganks, can flipping miners, etc... Can't be called PvP, it's butchery. And you're probably doing that because you can't do some true PvP with true targets.
So, basically you're using a derived part of PvP based on lack of knowledge / skill from the target.. that's acceptable, but don't expect things to stay how they are : broken because the risk/reward is in your favor in most of the cases (and when it is not, you engaged thinking it was).
Can flipper/suicide gankers tears best tears.
Edit : Oh and basically CCP wants to make money. This point is also acceptable and expected. Griefing noobs or people in general that were not expecting that kind of thing, create unsub : less money. That's normal to see CCP fixing this part.
totally agree, well said. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:43:00 -
[84] - Quote
Andski wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.
Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...
You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins. There is ample mechanics in place to allow for all manner of scenarios, plans, strategies and results.
How is this not in the spirit of Eve? Being able to take part in a fight without being a legal target isn't "in the spirit of Eve" and let's not pretend that it is, thanks.
If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4364
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:45:00 -
[85] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target.
Or maybe you could put my post into context rather than reading it selectively and replying with something that's completely unrelated to the subject matter. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:50:00 -
[86] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:People have to stop mixing up things. Can flipping is one of the few ways to attack newbies in high sec without getting concorded but that doesn't mean that can flipping as a mechanic is "broken" or "without risk".
If you can flip a whole mining corps with players who've been in the game for years and have lots of SP, ships and (hopefully) experience to counter it then it becomes a tad different. The game mechanics DO favour the defender, they can choose to attack... or not, they can choose to attack with multiple pilots in their corp... or not. That's also where the real profit is in can flipping; Older pilots coming back in shiny ships and then get killed/ransomed. a "proper" can flipper doesn't care about your retriever or Itty 5, he cares about the bling stuff you come back in or your corp mates in their CNRs.
There's a few reasons why can flipping will be messed up with the new system:
- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.
- because CCP is unable to code it properly (or unwilling to put the time into it as they "don't see the need", as they're carebears themselves) you end up with only one aggression timer. As it is now you can be aggressed to the whole corp for 5 minutes while still being aggressed to the guy that attacked you for another 10, giving you a window of opportunity. Removing that (or thinking it's wrong., like CCP seems to do) means you cater for the dumb people, the lazy carebears and is mostly about being too lazy to code it properly.
Can flipping (relative) newbies is a bit sad but that doesn't mean that as a mechanic it's broken or needs changing, it really does favour the defender (assuming the defender has the SP and playtime to be able to create a proper reaction). Thing is ofcourse that many miners CHOOSE to stay clueless and unprepared even after years of playing, and CCP should never cater for that mindset.
If you get flipped you have a choice, if you don't want to get can flipped you also have a choice. If you choose to AND use jetcans AND attack the ones who stole a bit of ore from you THEN you might get in trouble if you CHOOSE to not be prepared. So yes, it does favour the defender.
How does it favor the defender when the can flipper gets to choose his targets? He can simply pick someone who does not have the capacity to retaliate against him. So how does can flipping favor the victim again?
This is why what CCP is doing is such a great change. Can flippers can no longer choose targets where they will have 0 risk of retaliation. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
Andski wrote:Butzewutze wrote:If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target. Or maybe you could put my post into context rather than reading it selectively and replying with something that's completely unrelated to the subject matter.
I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.
If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4364
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:54:00 -
[88] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:How does it favor the defender when the can flipper gets to choose his targets? He can simply pick someone who does not have the capacity to retaliate against him. So how does can flipping favor the victim again?
This is why what CCP is doing is such a great change. Can flippers can no longer choose targets where they will have 0 risk of retaliation.
otoh, "defenseless" mining ships don't tend to jetcan mine since anybody in a Hulk or Covetor ~generally~ knows better. Mackinaws/Retrievers don't need to jetcan mine, Skiffs/Procurers just serve as good canflip bait.
non-barge mining ships can easily be used as bait.
crimewatch is stupid "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4364
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:55:00 -
[89] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.
If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure.
i'll just stop you there and let you know that I was referring to RR in the context of fighting suspect-flagged players "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 15:57:00 -
[90] - Quote
Andski wrote:Butzewutze wrote:I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.
If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure. i'll just stop you there and let you know that I was referring to RR in the context of fighting suspect-flagged players
Then i just misunderstood you. Sorry |
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:00:00 -
[91] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. .
Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4364
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:04:00 -
[92] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. . Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec.
this can already happen
it's simple: join a corp "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
496
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:06:00 -
[93] - Quote
I disagree with the whole mentality of "real PVPers do X, therefore let's get rid of everything that isn't X".
It's the same exact thing as saying "I don't like the way you play, so I don't think you should be able to play that way." EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:06:00 -
[94] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. . Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec.
You somehow think that highsec should be a pvp-free zone. Do you understand that this doesnt fit into the design of eve at all? There is pvp everywhere and pvp is also legit everywhere, against any target.
Let me ask it this way: If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: Would you call me a nub and yourself a douchebag?
The same scenario happens here. No miner gets attacked or freely choosen and blown up by a flipper... the miner has to take the first shot. |
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:09:00 -
[95] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Crimewatch is easy mode for freighter pilots. You'll be able to fly around anywhere you want with whatever cargo in highsec because nobody's going to try ganking you. Why? Any freighter that gets ganked full of cargo will need freighters to scoop the loot. What happens when the freighter scoops the loot? With crimewatch, they'll get flagged to anyone and everyone and be kill on sight. Nobody's going to try ganking freighters because then anyone will be able to shoot your freighter.
If this isn't dumbing down the game, I don't know what is.
You mean it would prevent unskilled solo pirate wannabes from "ganking" a freighter, if you wanted to "gank" a freighter and get the contents you would simply need protection to do so, in what way is this "dumbing the game down"? It is the opposite it makes it more involved, harder and promotes teamwork on a small scale. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:10:00 -
[96] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. As a can flipper, I approve this message. There is absolutely risk involved and if someone is 'pirate baiting' (this happens) then you are set up to lose as you cannot effectively aggro their Remote Reps and you are a sitting duck against their corp. While rare. people do set alts out on belts to lure flippers and kill them with ease. I have even done this to run other flippers out of systems I flip in.
no, potentially zero risk is right. The can fiipper chooses his target and he can easily pick a target that has no chance of retaliation. Its natural that theives would be attackable by anyone after they stole. To say can fights are 100% in favor of the victim is 100% moronic. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1843
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:13:00 -
[97] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote: Hm? If you are mining with a corpmate sitting nearby in a combat ship and someone comes along and takes something out of your can then your corpmate can alpha him into oblivion. What more do you want?
... that the miner can legitimately hire me to kill stuff (before it fires). As of now it's frustrating to see the targets come close and have to wait for them to open fire or do something.
Butzewutze wrote: The miner never sees action in this case or even "danger" but he is able to participate if he "chooses" to. Why do we need to hire other people into that? Its allready pretty one sided, dont you think?
Why, mercs exist and I don't recall them having to signup an EULA to play only when the targets have it fair.
Butzewutze wrote: Do you want a way to shoot a guy that "might" harm your mining in predefence without the guy actually doing something? Are you serious?
Considering I proposed on the Ideas forum ways to make hi sec like 0.0 and remove concord and NPCs? Heh for what I care there shold be only few hi sec islands for newbies and the rest free for all.
I understand "Pro hi sec PvPers" being scared even just at the vague mention of "free for all, no cheesy stupid NPCs in the middle". Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:14:00 -
[98] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? I have a question for you. In this engagement, who fired the first shot?
The canflipper. I took back what I thought was my stuff. I didnt know what canflipping was. What it entailed. Yes I got the warning but there was nobody around. I was well, and truely suckered into a LM.
I was a prime target. A noob newb. What these guys prey on. While you cannot fix stupid. THIS enables the new and vulnerable to have some active protection. Not just a week long wait for a petition.
|
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:14:00 -
[99] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:no, potentially zero risk is right. The can fiipper get to chooses his target, no the other way around, and he can easily pick a target that has no chance of retaliation. Its natural that theives would be attackable by anyone after they stole. To say can fights are 100% in favor of the victim is 100% moronic.
Where did the bad guy touch you? Show me with this doll...
Seriously, you are telling nonsense.
|
Jaison Savrin
Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:24:00 -
[100] - Quote
I had four friends I tried to get into this game. Three of them wanted to be miners. While they were still in a newbie corp and jet can mining out of frigates one of them got can flipped. When he was attacked the other two tried to help him and got concorded.
They do not play anymore because it was such a worthless and cowardly mechanic. They assumed all of Eve would be on that level.
Anything that makes that not be viable is worth it. Can flippers are among the most worthless people in Eve. They only target people they are 100% sure they can beat. Yes, the mechanics can be read as it being risky by the person being in a corp etc etc...
That is not the reality. Can flippers know how to bend the mechanics to suit them and thus find ways to eliminate the risk. This is not being smart. This is being worthless. It is not PvP. It is not "l33t". It is people who are bullies. People who have no back bones. People who are more afraid of a loss mail than your average miner. I hope the new can flipping mechanics start to result in the decimation of this playstyle. I would like my three friends to try Eve again without being chased off by bullies in their first few days. |
|
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:25:00 -
[101] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Butzewutze wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? I have a question for you. In this engagement, who fired the first shot? The canflipper. I took back what I thought was my stuff. I didnt know what canflipping was. What it entailed. Yes I got the warning but there was nobody around. I was well, and truely suckered into a LM. I was a prime target. A noob newb. What these guys prey on. While you cannot fix stupid. THIS enables the new and vulnerable to have some active protection. Not just a week long wait for a petition.
So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?
Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"? |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Butzewutze wrote: Hm? If you are mining with a corpmate sitting nearby in a combat ship and someone comes along and takes something out of your can then your corpmate can alpha him into oblivion. What more do you want?
... that the miner can legitimately hire me to kill stuff (before it fires). As of now it's frustrating to see the targets come close and have to wait for them to open fire or do something. Butzewutze wrote: The miner never sees action in this case or even "danger" but he is able to participate if he "chooses" to. Why do we need to hire other people into that? Its allready pretty one sided, dont you think?
Why, mercs exist and I don't recall them having to signup an EULA to play only when the targets have it fair. Butzewutze wrote: Do you want a way to shoot a guy that "might" harm your mining in predefence without the guy actually doing something? Are you serious?
Considering I proposed on the Ideas forum ways to make hi sec like 0.0 and remove concord and NPCs? Heh for what I care there shold be only few hi sec islands for newbies and the rest free for all. I understand "Pro hi sec PvPers" being scared even just at the vague mention of "free for all, no cheesy stupid NPCs in the middle".
Ah lol, then you have my support. I dont think canflipping has to exist but i respect this playstile and i dont think it has to be changed. Removing highsec at all or shrinking it to small islands would be even better as canflipping |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
494
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:29:00 -
[103] - Quote
My biggest problem with Crimewatch 2.0 is that it takes a relatively minor offense (stealing a resource, as opposed to, say, blowing someone up) and turns it into a major offense. In fact, I would argue that it removes a possible revenue stream from newer pilots since wreck looting in belts while ratting (something I did while n00b to raise skill book money) is now covered under potential capital punishment from the entirety of EVE.
This will also munge up low-sec gate gun aggro mechanics. If you opportunistically steal from a wreck anyone on the gate could shoot you without worrying about the guns, regardless of whether they owned the wreck or not. Not to mention the effect on suicide ganking haulers for profit.
In short, it's an ill-conceived, easiest-to-program fix for a problem that doesn't exist. Nothing Found |
Jaison Savrin
Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:33:00 -
[104] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote: Not to mention the effect on suicide ganking haulers for profit.
I see nothing wrong with that.
Edit: Err, a bit ambiguous. I see nothing wrong with it being harder to profit from ganking. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:36:00 -
[105] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. . Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec. You somehow think that highsec should be a pvp-free zone. Do you understand that this doesnt fit into the design of eve at all? There is pvp everywhere and pvp is also legit everywhere, against any target. Let me ask it this way: If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: Would you call me a nub and yourself a douchebag? The same scenario happens here. No miner gets attacked or freely choosen and blown up by a flipper... the miner has to take the first shot.
Why would they call it high sec if people can have their way with you with zero risk? lol.
Apparently you can't comprehend EVE design, much less simple logic. To say the miner is the aggressor is just....lol. More butthurt, irrational can flipper tears please. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
494
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:41:00 -
[106] - Quote
Jaison Savrin wrote:I see nothing wrong with that.
Edit: Err, a bit ambiguous. I see nothing wrong with it being harder to profit from ganking. While I don't necessarily care one way or another, you can easily make a distinction between a player wreck and an NPC wreck, and also take system sec into account to mete out an appropriate punishment. The problem with the current proposal is that it takes a one-size-fits-all approach to punishment of a crime. CCP have literally stated that they wanted the easiest solution to program, and that's a very bad thing in this case. Nothing Found |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. . Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec. You somehow think that highsec should be a pvp-free zone. Do you understand that this doesnt fit into the design of eve at all? There is pvp everywhere and pvp is also legit everywhere, against any target. Let me ask it this way: If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: Would you call me a nub and yourself a douchebag? The same scenario happens here. No miner gets attacked or freely choosen and blown up by a flipper... the miner has to take the first shot. Why would they call it high sec if people can have their way with you with zero risk? lol. Apparently you can't comprehend EVE design, much less simple logic. To say the miner is the aggressor is just....lol. More butthurt, irrational can flipper tears please.
See, thats the difference. You think about stealing as "aggression"... i would call it a minor act of crime. Shooting instead is clearly aggression and if you want to think about it that way then: "yes, i think the miner is the aggressor here".
|
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
128
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:44:00 -
[108] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:The canflipper. I took back what I thought was my stuff. I didnt know what canflipping was. What it entailed. Yes I got the warning but there was nobody around. I was well, and truely suckered into a LM.
I was a prime target. A noob newb. What these guys prey on. While you cannot fix stupid. THIS enables the new and vulnerable to have some active protection. Not just a week long wait for a petition.
You realise that under the proposed rules that YOU will be open to attack by anyone since you stole from him, right? Thing is, being a newbie is fine (I generally avoided anyone under 5 months) but still if you get a warning message stating "if you click yes bad people might **** you sideways", why the F did you do it? Amat victoria curam. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:47:00 -
[109] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:baltec1 wrote:Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. . Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec. You somehow think that highsec should be a pvp-free zone. Do you understand that this doesnt fit into the design of eve at all? There is pvp everywhere and pvp is also legit everywhere, against any target. Let me ask it this way: If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: Would you call me a nub and yourself a douchebag? The same scenario happens here. No miner gets attacked or freely choosen and blown up by a flipper... the miner has to take the first shot. Why would they call it high sec if people can have their way with you with zero risk? lol. Apparently you can't comprehend EVE design, much less simple logic. To say the miner is the aggressor is just....lol. More butthurt, irrational can flipper tears please. See, thats the difference. You think about stealing as "aggression"...
thats all I had to read before I lol'd. thanks for that. I won't continue to argue with apparent simpletons who cant think rationally. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:49:00 -
[110] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:lol, wow you really are an idiot, aren't you?
Thanks for your participation in this discussion.
|
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4365
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:50:00 -
[111] - Quote
look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Jaison Savrin
Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:51:00 -
[112] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:lol, wow you really are an idiot, aren't you? Thanks for your participation in this discussion.
No, that really is the only viable response to what you said. Stealing isn't aggression? Lol, you're and idiot aren't you? |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:52:00 -
[113] - Quote
Andski wrote:look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth
because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little harder. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:54:00 -
[114] - Quote
Jaison Savrin wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:lol, wow you really are an idiot, aren't you? Thanks for your participation in this discussion. No, that really is the only viable response to what you said. Stealing isn't aggression? Lol, you're and idiot aren't you?
Forumalt 4tw!
|
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:55:00 -
[115] - Quote
Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter? |
Jaison Savrin
Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:56:00 -
[116] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Forumalt 4tw!
Ummm, no. This is the only character I have ever posted on. I even posted earlier in this thread making a completely different point than Nerf is making.
I just happen to agree that only an idiot would say stealing isn't an act of aggression. Also, who here is using a forum alt? This is my main. Get yourself over it. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 16:56:00 -
[117] - Quote
MIrple wrote:Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter?
You probably cant... or just very hard.
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:00:00 -
[118] - Quote
MIrple wrote:Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter?
OMG, you mean you actually have to risk your freighter to loot a freighter that you suicide ganked in high sec? *Gasp* What a concept! Better throw up your hands and bawl all over the forums now. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:00:00 -
[119] - Quote
Jaison Savrin wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Forumalt 4tw! Ummm, no. This is the only character I have ever posted on. I even posted earlier in this thread making a completely different point than Nerf is making. I just happen to agree that only an idiot would say stealing isn't an act of aggression. Also, who here is using a forum alt? This is my main. Get yourself over it.
I dont think stealing is an act of aggression that justify to actually kill the thief - like it is now.
AND
I dont think stealing is an act of aggression that justify to hunt the thief with the whole town and then kill him - like it will be then. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be.
Doesn't help when flipping pirate has Falcon and at least two Scimis aligned and ready to warp in. Let's not forget that OGB Tengu. |
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Jaison Savrin wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Forumalt 4tw! Ummm, no. This is the only character I have ever posted on. I even posted earlier in this thread making a completely different point than Nerf is making. I just happen to agree that only an idiot would say stealing isn't an act of aggression. Also, who here is using a forum alt? This is my main. Get yourself over it.
Hes either an idiot or a troll, either way not worthy of response. His tears are certainly delicious though. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:03:00 -
[122] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be. Doesn't help when flipping pirate has Falcon and at least two Scimis aligned and ready to warp in. Let's not forget that OGB Tengu.
Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement.
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4365
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:05:00 -
[123] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging.
tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:05:00 -
[124] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement.
Boosting Tengu and logis don't show on killmails. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:10:00 -
[125] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement. Boosting Tengu and logis don't show on killmails.
But falcons usually do. Whatever...
The point is... i dont think the usual canflipper has offgridboosting, falcons and multiple logis available.
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:11:00 -
[126] - Quote
Andski wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging. tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR
That's called justice. Learn the difference between crime and justice. I don't know what backwards world you are living in, but on planet earth people don't get punished for exacting justice, only crimes. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:12:00 -
[127] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement. Boosting Tengu and logis don't show on killmails. But falcons usually do. Whatever... The point is... i dont think the usual canflipper has offgridboosting, falcons and multiple logis available.
Those who don't have do it wrong then. This game is about unfair pvp in hisec. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:13:00 -
[128] - Quote
As someone with some...er...experience in this topic, allow me to retort....
Crimewatch vs can or mission wreck flipping is IMHO a blunt instrument response on the failure of CCP and new players to simply educate themselves on game mechanics; an education I offer as a part of my activities :)
Consider the following choices a carebear must make before a can/mission flipper can attack them...
1) Can or mission flipping is not allowed in newb systems, stay in those - No? Go to step 2
2) If(Mining?) Mine into secure cans not JETTISON cans - No? Go to step 3
If(Missioning?) Release your wrecks (to blue status) as soon as a pirate enters your pocket - No? Go to step 3
3) Dont f#$ing shoot if someone loots from your can or wreck. Just ignore them. Period. If you dont shoot, they can't or be CONCORDED. - No? Really? Ok, go to step 4
4) Reap the result YOU chose based on your previous 3 decisions above
I hope the above illustrates how clearly care bears need to HTFU and educate themselves, instead of CCP implementing 'CRIMEWATCH' and effectively killing a whole (enjoyable IMHO) avenue to ad-hoc pvp in hisec....
Killboard |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:15:00 -
[129] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging. tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR That's called justice. Learn the difference between crime and justice. I don't know what backwards world you are living in, but on planet earth people don't get punished for exacting justice, only crimes.
Buddy, this is a game. We are not in reallife. Justice isn't a crime... self administered justice on the other hand is.
But wait... lets change EVE to make it like in reallife: Someone takes your stuff and you can tell the police what happend... in 1 of 100 times you will get the thief with help of the police, he gets a fine but you won't get your stuff back. Or the thief decides to shot you right in the face, takes your stuff and your game will be over. I would support that. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
992
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:18:00 -
[130] - Quote
Well this degenerated into another "Crimewatch waaaaaa" thread pretty fast. You know the aggression and flag mechanics are still being flushed out by the devs. I think until we see a devblog about what they came up with it's a little premature to talk about how upgrading one of the oldest and most fundamental mechanics of the game is a bad thing.
It's a complicated mechanic. I for one can't wrap my head around what they are going to do yet. If you haven't sen the fanfest presentation I encourage you do to so.
|
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:19:00 -
[131] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I hope the above illustrates how clearly care bears need to HTFU and educate themselves, instead of CCP implementing 'CRIMEWATCH' and effectively killing a whole (enjoyable IMHO) avenue to ad-hoc pvp in hisec....
they arehn't killing it, they are just making the douchebag lifestyle involve a bit more risk. Better cry on forums now. |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:20:00 -
[132] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:MIrple wrote:Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter? OMG, you mean you actually have to risk your freighter if you want to use a freighter to loot the full cargohold of a freighter that you suicide ganked in high sec? *Gasp* What a concept! Better throw up your hands and bawl all over the forums now.
No please show me how this is possible with the new system. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
198
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:21:00 -
[133] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging. tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR I don't know whether that is true or not. I heard talk of RR getting flagged when greyscale was talking about crimewatch.
Chopping peoples' hands off for stealing candy is also called "justice" in some parts of the world.
The punishment should fit the crime. Petty thievery is already punished by the "victim" or any of his corp being able to attack you. Maybe some small tweaks to the mechanics could help, but not a "free for all, vigilante justice on the petty criminal" approach.
You think that ninja looting in a 5mil destroyer under the nose of a 1 billion + tengu doesn't feel risky? :-)
I know this isn't can flipping specifically, but if you mess with can flipping, you mess with everyone else that deals with these mechanics.
Also... I'm looking forward to when I get adequate skills leveled up, so I can bait other ninjas to steal from my corp while my stealth bomber sits and waits. :-) People could pretty easily do this to can flippers too. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:24:00 -
[134] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Andski wrote:look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging. tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR I don't know whether that is true or not. I heard talk of RR getting flagged when greyscale was talking about crimewatch. Chopping peoples' hands off for stealing candy is also called "justice" in some parts of the world. The punishment should fit the crime. Petty thievery is already punished by the "victim" or any of his corp being able to attack you. Maybe some small tweaks to the mechanics could help, but not a "free for all, vigilante justice on the petty criminal" approach. You think that ninja looting in a 5mil destroyer under the nose of a 1 billion + tengu doesn't feel risky? :-) I know this isn't can flipping specifically, but if you mess with can flipping, you mess with everyone else that deals with these mechanics. Also... I'm looking forward to when I get adequate skills leveled up, so I can bait other ninjas to steal from my corp while my stealth bomber sits and waits. :-) People could pretty easily do this to can flippers too.
they are hardly "chopping peoples heads off" for stealing "candy". They could just concord you for can flipping you know? Way to take things to extremes, it really helps your argument. |
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:28:00 -
[135] - Quote
I like the part of this thread where everyone was speaking as though their opinions were based in anything factual.
Opinions aside: - Can Flipping has risk associated with it. - Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter. - All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.
Deal with it nullbears. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
198
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:29:00 -
[136] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:they are hardly "chopping peoples heads off" for stealing "candy". They could just concord you for can flipping you know? Way to take things to ridiculous extremes, it really helps your argument.
I didn't take anything to extremes. You read "heads" when I clearly wrote "hands". And yes. This happens regularly in some countries.
The point that you refuse to acknowledge is that there are varying levels of crime, which deserve different levels of punishment. Petty thievery being punishable by the victim or his corp being able to explode you seems pretty adequate.
Having an entire city of people trying to kill you as you drive by because you stole 50 bucks is a bit excessive. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:30:00 -
[137] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:As someone with some...er...experience in this topic, allow me to retort....
Crimewatch vs can or mission wreck flipping is IMHO a blunt instrument response on the failure of CCP and new players to simply educate themselves on game mechanics; an education I offer as a part of my activities :)
Consider the following choices a carebear must make before a can/mission flipper can attack them...
1) Can or mission flipping is not allowed in newb systems, stay in those - No? Go to step 2
2) If(Mining?) Mine into secure cans not JETTISON cans - No? Go to step 3
If(Missioning?) Release your wrecks (to blue status) as soon as a pirate enters your pocket - No? Go to step 3
3) Dont f#$ing shoot if someone loots from your can or wreck. Just ignore them. Period. If you dont shoot, they can't or be CONCORDED. - No? Really? Ok, go to step 4
4) Reap the result YOU chose based on your previous 3 decisions above
I hope the above illustrates how clearly care bears need to HTFU and educate themselves, instead of CCP implementing 'CRIMEWATCH' and effectively killing a whole (enjoyable IMHO) avenue to ad-hoc pvp in hisec....
This x1000
This topic should be covered in the tutorial, and aggression for stealing should be extended to all alliance members rather than all corporation members. Problem solved.
The planned crimewatch changes are nothing but a reduction in risk and an effort to make highsec safer and Eve Online easier. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:30:00 -
[138] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:I like the part of this thread where everyone was speaking as though their opinions were based in anything factual.
Opinions aside: - Can Flipping has risk associated with it. - Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter. - All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.
Deal with it nullbears.
apparently ccp disagrees with you, hence these changes that will bring unavoidable risk into can flipping where there was too little before. The can flipper gets to chose whose can he flips, not the other way around. Deal with it bear-rats. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:37:00 -
[139] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:
So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?
Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"?
I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed
Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)
|
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:45:00 -
[140] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Butzewutze wrote:
So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?
Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"?
I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)
Yeah thats fine. But don't you think an addition to the tutorial that warns you about what might happen should be enough? Do you think that your lack of knowledge justifies a nerf of a playstyle of many other players? |
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:50:00 -
[141] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Butzewutze wrote:
So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?
Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"?
I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)
lack of knowledge is what the awful scrub pvpers in eve prey on. They probably got **** on in other games that require skill. You kind of have to feel bad for them that they feel the need to stoop to such low levels of "pvp" to get their fix. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:50:00 -
[142] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:Opinions aside: - Can Flipping has risk associated with it. - Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter. - All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.
- Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you. - Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins. - Pirate has the upper hand always. |
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
98
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:50:00 -
[143] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote: I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed
Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)
So with your logic, why is it an issue at all? You played, you lost, you learned and (maybe) got over it. Are you better off for having that experience rather than being sheltered from it?
Noobs are the Jello of the High Sec PvP Buffet. There is always room for more. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:51:00 -
[144] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quaaid wrote:Opinions aside: - Can Flipping has risk associated with it. - Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter. - All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand. - Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you. - Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins. - Pirate has the upper hand always.
Bl+¦dsinn. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
930
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:53:00 -
[145] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
Everyone in the corp cannot attack. Several other conditions must be true first:
They got to be on-line. They got to be close enough to get there before the timer runs out. Its got to not be a NPC corp.
What percent of can flips are won by the victim? My guess is less that 5%. Sure 5% is bigger than zero, so its not zero risk. But its awfully close. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
98
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:54:00 -
[146] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote: - Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you. - Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins. - Pirate has the upper hand always.
You are proving my point. You offer opinion while speaking in fact. Two of your statements are factually incorrect off of context alone, and the other is highly subjective.
This makes you wrong on all sides, unless you would like to share some statistical data to the contrary. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 17:55:00 -
[147] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Bl+¦dsinn.
Show me killmail then. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
198
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:00:00 -
[148] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Quaaid wrote:Opinions aside: - Can Flipping has risk associated with it. - Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter. - All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand. - Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you. - Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins. - Pirate has the upper hand always.
This is funny. Every single "counter point" you made is completely wrong.
-The miner can choose not to jettison valuable cargo, where anyone can reach it. --This miner can also grab a combat ship to fight the thief, if he wants to.
-Can flipping very often leads to nothing. Most of the time the victim is too worried by the thought of combat, and runs off, or does nothing. Also, it's a pretty simple task to set up a bait can, have a pirate go for it, and blast him before he even realizes what happened. You could either have stealth help, or somebody ready to warp to you immediately after the aggro.
-Pirate only has the upper hand if you allow him to, or are too scared at the thought of what "backup" he or she might have. You choose whether to engage or not. I go up against ships that could pop me in 1 shot all that time. Most of the time they won't shoot me. Don't ask me why. It's not like they can't see that I'm only 1 month old.
Making eve a nice place for brand newbs is a whole different issue than changing crime/punishment mechanics for the rest of the universe. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:02:00 -
[149] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Bl+¦dsinn. Show me killmail then. Quaaid wrote:You are proving my point. You offer opinion while speaking in fact. Two of your statements are factually incorrect off of context alone, and the other is highly subjective.
This makes you wrong on all sides, unless you would like to share some statistical data to the contrary. Killmail thing goes to you too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
U know. there are actually people who want to fight canflippers and prepare for them. There are many hulk against X kills on youtube.
|
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:03:00 -
[150] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk was ironic. Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.
This. Miners aren't going to go after people who can-flip them, period. So yes, it's zero risk to the flipper. |
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:03:00 -
[151] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Everyone in the corp cannot attack. Several other conditions must be true first: They got to be on-line. They got to be close enough to get there before the timer runs out. Its got to not be a NPC corp. What percent of can flips are won by the victim? My guess is less that 5%. Sure 5% is bigger than zero, so its not zero risk. But its awfully close.
This guy gets it. This is the reality. Anyone who thinks the victim has the advantage and that there is much risk in can flipping is clearly a moron. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:05:00 -
[152] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
U know. there are actually people who want to fight canflippers and prepare for them. There are many hulk against X kills on youtube.
Fail. NOS doesn't work that way anymore.
Because you failed to show me a killmail you have to record video of you losing officer fit Tengu to untanked cargo Retriever. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:06:00 -
[153] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Everyone in the corp cannot attack. Several other conditions must be true first: They got to be on-line. They got to be close enough to get there before the timer runs out. Its got to not be a NPC corp. What percent of can flips are won by the victim? My guess is less that 5%. Sure 5% is bigger than zero, so its not zero risk. But its awfully close. This guy gets it. This is the reality. Anyone who thinks the victim has all advantage and that there is much risk in can flipping is clearly a moron.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5JwBz89_cQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxa6fFRtEA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgNZKt2vK9c&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcuBvxS3o_A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGcCO7q9WxQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U39_JqTEws |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
199
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:07:00 -
[154] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:This guy gets it. This is the reality. Anyone who thinks the victim has all advantage and that there is much risk in can flipping is clearly a moron.
Well... umm... no! You're a moron! Derp! My science is greater than your science!
By the way... why would you waste your time arguing with morons?
Don't you have anything better to do? |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:12:00 -
[155] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote: I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed
Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)
So with your logic, why is it an issue at all? You played, you lost, you learned and (maybe) got over it. Are you better off for having that experience rather than being sheltered from it? Noobs are the Jello of the High Sec PvP Buffet. There is always room for more.
To me it was not an issue. I got on with my game. I am not a cryer. I believe EVE should be cruel and hard. STRONGLY believe that. This also goes to criminals though. They should pay for their actions. Preying on the weak is bullying pure, and simple. Bullies should never be able to have the upper hand, Everyone has the right to spank a bully.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:15:00 -
[156] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5JwBz89_cQ
2008...
Quote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U
2007...
Quote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWxa6fFRtEA
2009
Quote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgNZKt2vK9c&feature=related
2008
Fake...
|
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
199
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:19:00 -
[157] - Quote
Maybe when you're done beating up your straw man, we can get back to the real issue... That you're Wrong!!! lol
Just kidding.
Sort of...
But not in a mean way...
You just happen to be wrong |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:20:00 -
[158] - Quote
Thats what i find in 5 minutes. I'm sure there are many more. And btw. nothing has changed since then... the mechanics are the same. |
Equus
Royal Order of Security Specialists Late Night Alliance
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:20:00 -
[159] - Quote
To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:21:00 -
[160] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:You just happen to be wrong
So, you think untanked Hulk can win against 600k EHP Damnation? Yes, I know Damnation's dps is bad, but not bad... |
|
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
199
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:24:00 -
[161] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:So, you think untanked Hulk can win against 600k EHP Damnation? Yes, I know Damnation's dps is bad, but not that bad...
Now you're gonna put words in my mouth? Why can't we stay on track... You gave 3 points. I showed why each of them was completely wrong. When did I ever say "Damnation"? |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:24:00 -
[162] - Quote
Equus wrote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.
I would be fine with "everybody on grid" but not with the "hired mercs" part because that essentially means "all".
|
Alara IonStorm
2979
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:27:00 -
[163] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote: Zero Risk?
Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.
Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
Everyone in the corp cannot attack. Several other conditions must be true first: They got to be on-line. They got to be close enough to get there before the timer runs out. Its got to not be a NPC corp. What percent of can flips are won by the victim? My guess is less that 5%. Sure 5% is bigger than zero, so its not zero risk. But its awfully close. Yet you ignore all the other advantages. Miners only lose when they engage in vessels suited for mining. 2 Webs and a flight of ECM Drones in a Cruiser is more then enough to pop any frigate or escape if they have logi. As for your points about corporations you can't always bring in corporate help but when you can it is an advantage they can not match.
If miners used the correct equipment and picked their fights that number would be 95% not 5%. But they don't just like I've seen Hulk mail after Hulk mail with empty midslots and more then enough room for Invulns.
Nerf Burger wrote: This guy gets it. This is the reality. Anyone who thinks the victim has all advantage and that there is much risk in can flipping is clearly a moron.
So angry over a video game.
Try to be more polite on the forums. Angry people like you are scaring away new players.
/sigh.
|
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:28:00 -
[164] - Quote
TIL ppl can flip in Damnations. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
199
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:29:00 -
[165] - Quote
Equus wrote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.
I can agree with the spirit of this post. (Sure, there's room for abuse, but the basic idea is right, methinks)
People running missions together, or mining together, or cooperating like good little MMO players should be able to defend eachother.
Having system-wide free for all on a thief's *** is overkill. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:33:00 -
[166] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:-Can flipping very often leads to nothing. Most of the time the victim is too worried by the thought of combat, and runs off, or does nothing. Also, it's a pretty simple task to set up a bait can, have a pirate go for it, and blast him before he even realizes what happened. You could either have stealth help, or somebody ready to warp to you immediately after the aggro. of the universe.
Do you know that cloaks mess up your targeting? Even force recons have targeting delay -> pirate warps away. If miner warps off and returns in pvp ship pirate usually warps away if he see combat ship in d-scan and switches to ship that can kill [insert ship here].
Lol, and I'm not worried about losing something if can flipper is around. I like to waste their time. I'm quite good at it. |
Quaaid
EVE Pilot Help Center
99
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:35:00 -
[167] - Quote
Quote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.
I don't really have a problem with what you are offering here. It's a controllable scenario, akin to High Sec antics. It also makes cloakies a threat to High Sec pvp.
I would like this much more than what is planned. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:36:00 -
[168] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:-Can flipping very often leads to nothing. Most of the time the victim is too worried by the thought of combat, and runs off, or does nothing. Also, it's a pretty simple task to set up a bait can, have a pirate go for it, and blast him before he even realizes what happened. You could either have stealth help, or somebody ready to warp to you immediately after the aggro. of the universe. Do you know that cloaks mess up your targeting? Even force recons have targeting delay -> pirate warps away. If miner warps off and returns in pvp ship pirate usually warps away if he see combat ship in d-scan and switches to ship that can kill [insert ship here]. Lol, and I'm not worried about losing something if can flipper is around. I like to waste their time. I'm quite good at it.
Oh, the last time i checked bombers did not have a targeting delay after decloak. Covert op frigates and blackops dont have it aswell. |
Anslo
Black Horse Enterprises-International The Unforgiven Alliance
117
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:36:00 -
[169] - Quote
Why is this such a hot topic? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4367
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:37:00 -
[170] - Quote
let's make eve Just Like Real Life
in real life, when seconds count, the police are minutes away "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
|
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:37:00 -
[171] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:Equus wrote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other. I can agree with the spirit of this post. (Sure, there's room for abuse, but the basic idea is right, methinks) People running missions together, or mining together, or cooperating like good little MMO players should be able to defend eachother. Having system-wide free for all on a thief's *** is overkill.
I could get on board with it being grid wide. Not sure how they could work this though. Might be as easy as making it follow the old DD scripts as I believe they hit grid wide. This would make ganking freighters Hard but not impossible to get away with also. So +1 on this idea
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:41:00 -
[172] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Oh, the last time i checked bombers did not have a targeting delay after decloak.
Torps against frigate... |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
199
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:41:00 -
[173] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:-Can flipping very often leads to nothing. Most of the time the victim is too worried by the thought of combat, and runs off, or does nothing. Also, it's a pretty simple task to set up a bait can, have a pirate go for it, and blast him before he even realizes what happened. You could either have stealth help, or somebody ready to warp to you immediately after the aggro. of the universe. Do you know that cloaks mess up your targeting? Even force recons have targeting delay -> pirate warps away. If miner warps off and returns in pvp ship pirate usually warps away if he see combat ship in d-scan and switches to ship that can kill [insert ship here]. Lol, and I'm not worried about losing something if can flipper is around. I like to waste their time. I'm quite good at it.
Well, those were just a couple examples of how to deal with pirates. There's plenty of options. But I do have to clarify one thing...
You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.
A short while later, you say that if the miner can force the pirate to warp off, then the pirate still wins? (?!)
So no matter what, miners are losers? I would think that shoving a bully off your stack of ore could count as a "success"... |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
128
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:43:00 -
[174] - Quote
Equus wrote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other.
You're so wrong it's not even funny. There's ofcourse different kinds of can flippers so I can only speak for my (former) self.
- I WANT you to have multiple corp members in local, preferably all over 6 months old, the older the better as that means they'll fly bigger and more expensive ships and get more cocky - I WANT you to have "security" in the belt, generally that means I'll get shot at - I don't CARE for your hauler or retriever kill, they mean nothing to me as they have no value and thus can't be ransomed - I WANT you to come back in something good because I know full well that, being a miner, you'll be **** at using it and that means easy target worth a lot of isk, resulting is nice ransoms - there's many ways miners can avoid being can flipped, even when they're jetcanning! All it takes is some basic understanding of the game mechanics, some ingenuity and some ******* EFFORT. It happen fairly often that I just can't even GET the jet can or can't entice the previous owner to do something stupid, when that happens I wish him good luck and go my merry way to find someone who IS a moron and will do moronic dumb **** - there's many ways a corp can protect themselves after being can flipped and kill the can flipper in a fight. (hint, most of the dumb carebears fly caldari, it's not very difficult to put a fitted blackbird in your Orca now is it)
I have no problem in stating that it's easy kills most of the time, because it is but then again, gatecampers also want easy kills, blobbers in 0l.0 also want easy kills and pirates in low sec, guess what... they want easy kills. The difference is that miners/bears whine about how unfair it is and how CPP should do something about it, while people who actually understand EVE point at the options said miner has and go "you have the tools for the job, it's up to you to make it happen". Amat victoria curam. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:45:00 -
[175] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Butzewutze wrote:Oh, the last time i checked bombers did not have a targeting delay after decloak.
Torps against frigate...
We were not talking about effectivity.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:47:00 -
[176] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins.
- Miner warps to station - Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav - Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan - Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu
You probably already know how that will continue. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
126
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:48:00 -
[177] - Quote
Equus wrote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other. I always wait for them to reship, as does every can flipper I have seen, ever.
I think the on grid idea could be difficult to implement and isn't needed (I think the current system is mostly fine), but I would not be opposed to it on the basis of the flagging mechanic. It is far superior to the proposed suspect mechanic.
EDIT: +1 for Vilnius Zar's post |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
200
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:49:00 -
[178] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins. - Miner warps to station - Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav - Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan - Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu You probably already know how that will continue. So a miner having to run back to a better combat ship is unacceptable, but fair.
But if the pirate has to do it, then that's unfair?
|
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:49:00 -
[179] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Equus wrote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other. You're so wrong it's not even funny. There's ofcourse different kinds of can flippers so I can only speak for my (former) self. - I WANT you to have multiple corp members in local, preferably all over 6 months old, the older the better as that means they'll fly bigger and more expensive ships and get more cocky - I WANT you to have "security" in the belt, generally that means I'll get shot at - I don't CARE for your hauler or retriever kill, they mean nothing to me as they have no value and thus can't be ransomed - I WANT you to come back in something good because I know full well that, being a miner, you'll be **** at using it and that means easy target worth a lot of isk, resulting is nice ransoms - there's many ways miners can avoid being can flipped, even when they're jetcanning! All it takes is some basic understanding of the game mechanics, some ingenuity and some ******* EFFORT. It happen fairly often that I just can't even GET the jet can or can't entice the previous owner to do something stupid, when that happens I wish him good luck and go my merry way to find someone who IS a moron and will do moronic dumb **** - there's many ways a corp can protect themselves after being can flipped and kill the can flipper in a fight. (hint, most of the dumb carebears fly caldari, it's not very difficult to put a fitted blackbird in your Orca now is it) I have no problem in stating that it's easy kills most of the time because it is but then again, gatecampers also want easy kills, blobbers in 0.0 also want easy kills and pirates in low sec, guess what... they want easy kills. The difference is that miners/bears whine about how unfair it is and how CCP should do something about it, while people who actually understand EVE point at the options said miner has and go "you have the tools for the job, it's up to you to make it happen".
Quoted for frickin truth! When i did canflips then i usually hoped for something expensive and a fight like 1 against 5!
You hit the nail on the head... its a like a 15 minute private war against another corp (if they decide to participate) and with that a playground for smallscale pvp.
|
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:50:00 -
[180] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins. - Miner warps to station - Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav - Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan - Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu You probably already know how that will continue. So a miner having to run back to a better combat ship is unacceptable, but fair. But if the pirate has to do it, then that's unfair?
Why do you think Caracal has even a small chance against Tengu? |
|
Alara IonStorm
2980
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:52:00 -
[181] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins. - Miner warps to station - Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav - Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan - Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu You probably already know how that will continue. Miner is smart enough not to engage Tengu realizing that the thief out guns him. If lacking adequate Corp support Miner accepts that in this instance he has been outgunned and doesn't jettison his valuables until known thief leaves system. Adds thief to watch list for further notice. |
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:54:00 -
[182] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:You seem to think that if the miner has to warp off to avoid combat, then the pirate wins. - Miner warps to station - Miner undocks in Caracal and warps back to belt/grav - Pirate uses d-scan and picks up Caracal on scan - Pirate warps to safespot/station and switches to Tengu You probably already know how that will continue. Miner is smart enough not to engage Tengu realizing that the thief out guns him. If lacking adequate Corp support Miner accepts that in this instance he has been outgunned and doesn't jettison his valuables until known thief leaves system. Adds thief to watch list for further notice.
Win!
|
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
130
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:55:00 -
[183] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Why do you think Caracal has even a small chance against Tengu?
If that miner who reshipped into his caracal engaged his brain he warped in at 50km or so, giving him enough time to gtfo once he realised that the can flipper also reshipped. Also, who says that miner doesn't come back in a decent tanked ship like a drake, then entices the can flipper to a short range brawl and drops scram + 2 webs on him and then his corp members, flying 2 blackbirds (any 2 weeks newbie can fly them would he want to) keep him from doing any damage. Just because YOU don't see any solutions doesn't mean there AREN'T any.
Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know. Amat victoria curam. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
201
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 18:55:00 -
[184] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Why do you think Caracal has even a small chance against Tengu?
I never said anything like that. What I said was more like "If a miner can run to station and bring back a better combat ship, why shouldn't the pirate be able to, also?".
If the miner finds himself completely outgunned, then he'll have to back down, and be more careful where he jettisons his valuable ore, next time. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:01:00 -
[185] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know.
Every 2 month old newb can fly one. Why would pirates be any different? |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
201
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:03:00 -
[186] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know. Every 2 month old newb can fly one. Why would pirates be any different?
Well... then why would miners be any different? |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
414
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:05:00 -
[187] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?
just because you weren't a threat to him doesn't mean there wasn't any threat to him.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
130
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:12:00 -
[188] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Also, most can flippers don't fly Tengus so that shows how much you know. Every 2 month old newb can fly one. Why would pirates be any different?
Because some of them actually understand game mechanics, scenarios and... the game, unlike you it seems. The reason is fairly simple: if I can flip you and you're in an actual corp with actual active people in it and you cry for help in corp channel there's always "that one guy", he flies fancy stuff... you know the type, faction fetish to the point he even fitted Caldari Navy shoe laces and he invariably flies a CNR/Golem/Navy Domi that, because he's a fcking moron, is overtanked to the extreme and, because he is lazy, perma tanks. There's a big fat chance he'll be running kinetic resists and he'll tank 800+ on it, so a Tengu would be fairly crappy for the job.
THAT'S why people who aren't dumb don't use tengus for this. Amat victoria curam. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
151
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:12:00 -
[189] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:Well... then why would miners be any different?
Smart miner wouldn't undock in Tengu...
Pirate in Tengu can always tank miner in Tengu even with equal skills. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
201
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:15:00 -
[190] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:Well... then why would miners be any different? Smart miner wouldn't undock in Tengu... Pirate in Tengu can always tank miner in Tengu even with equal skills.
Huh...? ??
Have I entered the twilight zone, here?
Smart miner, won't undock in Tengu, but smart pirate will........
So when a miner and a pirate are equally matched, the pirate wins by default?
I is confuzed |
|
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:17:00 -
[191] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote: I is confuzed
U nont getin et? Piwat is lawaz the betta! |
Alara IonStorm
2982
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:20:00 -
[192] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote: So when a miner and a pirate are equally matched, the pirate wins by default?
F**kin East German Judges.
The pirate did not stick that landing, I don't care what anyone says. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
497
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:24:00 -
[193] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:MIrple wrote:Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter? OMG, you mean I won't have to put in any effort whatsoever defending my corp's supply chains? FTFY EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Auar
Con and Sons
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:41:00 -
[194] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I hope the above illustrates how clearly care bears need to HTFU and educate themselves, instead of CCP implementing 'CRIMEWATCH' and effectively killing a whole (enjoyable IMHO) avenue to ad-hoc pvp in hisec....
they arehn't killing it, they are just making the douchebag lifestyle involve a bit more risk. Better cry on forums now.
Haha, how many times did you make three poor choices and lose ships because of it? Love killing the dumb. To let them live is a disservice to Eve.
Hope to see you soon, or at least before crimewatch is implemented.
Auar
|
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:49:00 -
[195] - Quote
Auar wrote: Haha, how many times did you make three poor choices and lose ships because of it? Love killing the dumb. To let them live is a disservice to Eve.
Hope to see you soon, or at least before crimewatch is implemented.
Auar
I think it is amazing, that all these canflippers cannot back their claims of targetting only bitter vets, by posting on their Canflipping chars.
Only one has posted on a canflipper and guess what. The victim was a month old. Now what did the canflipper fly I hear you cry? of all things, he was flying an Ishkur. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
497
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:51:00 -
[196] - Quote
Why are we still talking about can flipping? That's so minor compared to the other issue at hand. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:54:00 -
[197] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why are we still talking about can flipping? That's so minor compared to the other issue at hand.
Well considering the post is about crimewatch breaking canflipping. I think it is safe to say that is what this thread is about.
Feel free to not bother coming to this thread again if it bothers you that much.
o7
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
497
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:55:00 -
[198] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why are we still talking about can flipping? That's so minor compared to the other issue at hand. Well considering the post is about crimewatch breaking canflipping. I think it is safe to say that is what this thread is about. Feel free to not bother coming to this thread again if it bothers you that much. o7 I'm coming into the thread because I'm bothered by the fact that people are ignoring the real issue. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
203
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:57:00 -
[199] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:I think it is amazing, that all these canflippers cannot back their claims of targetting only bitter vets, by posting on their Canflipping chars.
Only one has posted on a canflipper and guess what. The victim was a month old. Now what did the canflipper fly I hear you cry? of all things, he was flying an Ishkur.
What do you call a month old pirate with mostly wasted drone skills making a living off bittervet mission runners' uncollected loot and salvage? |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
203
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 19:58:00 -
[200] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm coming into the thread because I'm bothered by the fact that people are ignoring the real issue.
It's the m***** f***in pandas again, isn't it...? |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
497
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:05:00 -
[201] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm coming into the thread because I'm bothered by the fact that people are ignoring the real issue. It's the m***** f***in pandas again, isn't it...? What? EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
203
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:09:00 -
[202] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm coming into the thread because I'm bothered by the fact that people are ignoring the real issue. It's the m***** f***in pandas again, isn't it...? What?
Then they've already gotten to you...
Damn... I was too late |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
992
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:09:00 -
[203] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm coming into the thread because I'm bothered by the fact that people are ignoring the real issue. It's the m***** f***in pandas again, isn't it...? What? How did all these m*****f****** pandas get on my m*****f****** spaceship?
|
Auar
Con and Sons
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 20:14:00 -
[204] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Auar wrote: Haha, how many times did you make three poor choices and lose ships because of it? Love killing the dumb. To let them live is a disservice to Eve.
Hope to see you soon, or at least before crimewatch is implemented.
Auar
I think it is amazing, that all these canflippers cannot back their claims of targetting only bitter vets, by posting on their Canflipping chars. Only one has posted on a canflipper and guess what. The victim was a month old. Now what did the canflipper fly I hear you cry? of all things, he was flying an Ishkur.
Never claimed to target bitter vets. I flip occasionally and i am sure they are mostly young characters dumb enough to take the bait. Just so you don't have to look it up I flip in a Hawk. I think that's a worthy risk considering I am opening aggression up to entire corps.
If you think it's a no risk game (flipping) then go out and try it.
Auar
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:02:00 -
[205] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Equus wrote:To all the people touting that all the miner/missioner has to do is go dock and ship up, how often does the flipper really wait for this to happen? I wager the majority, note, I didn't say all, of flippers in this situation will warp away, especially if a real combat ship comes back.
The fact is, while the miner/missioner has the ability and the right to shoot back, if they are like my industry alt, they are trained for fitting and flying industrial ships, and science and manufacturing. He really has nothing to ship up to.
So again to all you high-sec PvPer's, and for this instance I am really using that term loosely, how about this for a solution, as minor as the crime may be you did STEAL from a person, this is a crime, and should be punishable. I agree Joe Blow back at the station who never saw a thing shouldn't be able to shoot you, but how is this, everyone on grid who witnessed the event can shoot.
There is no GCC or any of that, but hired mercs, friends, and allies will have the ability to protect each other and shoot you, should they be on hand to witness the crime. Now a non-combat pilot can hire help and have friends to watch his back. Corps who specialize in industry can hire mercs to guard their mining operations, etc. etc. There is no reason that people should have to be in the same corporation to protect each other. You're so wrong it's not even funny. There's ofcourse different kinds of can flippers so I can only speak for my (former) self. - I WANT you to have multiple corp members in local, preferably all over 6 months old, the older the better as that means they'll fly bigger and more expensive ships and get more cocky - I WANT you to have "security" in the belt, generally that means I'll get shot at - I don't CARE for your hauler or retriever kill, they mean nothing to me as they have no value and thus can't be ransomed - I WANT you to come back in something good because I know full well that, being a miner, you'll be **** at using it and that means easy target worth a lot of isk, resulting is nice ransoms - there's many ways miners can avoid being can flipped, even when they're jetcanning! All it takes is some basic understanding of the game mechanics, some ingenuity and some ******* EFFORT. It happen fairly often that I just can't even GET the jet can or can't entice the previous owner to do something stupid, when that happens I wish him good luck and go my merry way to find someone who IS a moron and will do moronic dumb **** - there's many ways a corp can protect themselves after being can flipped and kill the can flipper in a fight. (hint, most of the dumb carebears fly caldari, it's not very difficult to put a fitted blackbird in your Orca now is it) I have no problem in stating that it's easy kills most of the time because it is but then again, gatecampers also want easy kills, blobbers in 0.0 also want easy kills and pirates in low sec, guess what... they want easy kills. The difference is that miners/bears whine about how unfair it is and how CCP should do something about it, while people who actually understand EVE point at the options said miner has and go "you have the tools for the job, it's up to you to make it happen". Quoted for frickin truth! When i did canflips then i usually hoped for something expensive and a fight like 1 against 5! You hit the nail on the head... its a like a 15 minute private war against another corp (if they decide to participate) and with that a playground for smallscale pvp.
funny that you say you hope for pvp instead of just going out and getting it. in reality, you are picking on noob corps, probably because you are awful and know you can't handle anything else. Finally CCP is doing something about your riskless piracy. Deal with it.
Personally I'm very glad CCP is finally adding some risk to the douchebag lifestyle, can flippers and suicide gankers had it way too easy before. Essentially zero risk for these scrubs who beat their chest over shooting fish in a barrel. The river of tears over the fact that a little more risk is going to be involved in can flipping is hilarious. Scrubs left and right,k throwing up their hands and claiming EVE is turning into WoW. LOL.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
499
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:22:00 -
[206] - Quote
"Let's get rid of easy targets, because easy targets don't exist in other games." EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:26:00 -
[207] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Let's get rid of easy targets, because easy targets don't exist in other games."
hahahah! so true are your tears and exactly what I was saying. You scrubs and awful shtt-pvpers have had it far too easy in EVE. About time CCP started to change pvp into less of a joke. Good time for me to start playing.
Cry more baddies. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
499
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:36:00 -
[208] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Let's get rid of easy targets, because easy targets don't exist in other games." hahahah! so true are your tears and exactly what I was saying. You scrubs and awful shtt-pvpers have had it far too easy in EVE. About time CCP started to change pvp into less of a joke. Good time for me to start playing. Cry more baddies. I'm a **** PVPer, but I don't can flip. Feel free to check my killboard stats. My point is unchanged. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
525
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:39:00 -
[209] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Let's get rid of easy targets, because easy targets don't exist in other games." hahahah! so true are your tears and exactly what I was saying. You scrubs and awful shtt-pvpers have had it far too easy in EVE. About time CCP started to change pvp into less of a joke. Good time for me to start playing. Cry more baddies. I agree completely.
Make PvP less of a joke
Let people arm freighters a lot.
Then PvP can be less about clubbing baby seals and more about sharks fighting each other. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 21:43:00 -
[210] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:"Let's get rid of easy targets, because easy targets don't exist in other games." hahahah! so true are your tears and exactly what I was saying. You scrubs and awful shtt-pvpers have had it far too easy in EVE. About time CCP started to change pvp into less of a joke. Good time for me to start playing. Cry more baddies. I'm a **** PVPer, but I don't can flip. Feel free to check my killboard stats. My point is unchanged.
its not a good point though.. EVE probably has some of the easiest targets of any mmorpg, too easy imo, and what pirates are preying on is lack of knowledge in a popular game, not lack of skill. Awful players naturally have gravitated to this game, having gotten shat on in other, more skill demanding pvp games. About time CCP made the game a little more challenging. It was pretty ridiculous how you can go around suicide ganking and flipping cans with potentially zero risk. |
|
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1690
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:12:00 -
[211] - Quote
highsec ... full of cowards. (cowards in a game ! grats!) Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1690
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:14:00 -
[212] - Quote
Nerf Burgerits wrote: not a good point though.. EVE probably has some of the easiest targets of any mmorpg, too easy imo, and what pirates are preying on is lack of knowledge in a popular game, not lack of skill. Awful players naturally have gravitated to this game, having gotten shat on in other, more skill demanding pvp games. About time CCP made the game a little more challenging. It was pretty ridiculous how you can go around suicide ganking and flipping cans, shooting fish in a barrel with potentially zero risk.
I agree ... and i'm -10. :)
Glorious will be the day cowards won't point me anymore and then run away because i can shoot them ... simply because there won't be any cowards left.
I love the new crimewatch ! Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:40:00 -
[213] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:funny that you say you hope for pvp instead of just going out and getting it like a normal pvper. in reality, you are picking on noob corps, probably because you are awful and know you can't handle anything else. Stupidity isn't lack of knowledge of can flipping mechanics, stupidity is thinking lack of knowledge = stupidity . If anyone is inferior, its the can flipper. Normal pvpers won't stoop so low, they prefer a challenge and targets that actually fight back. Finally CCP is doing something about riskless d-bag piracy. Deal with it.
Personally I'm very glad CCP is finally adding some risk to the douchebag lifestyle, can flippers and suicide gankers had it way too easy before. Essentially zero risk for these scrubs who beat their chest over shooting fish in a barrel. The river of tears over the fact that a little more risk is going to be involved in can flipping is hilarious. Awful players left and right throwing up their hands and claiming EVE pvp is ruined or turning into WoW. LOL.
Quoted for truth.
Changes to sentries, and flag mechanics, will seperate the crap PVPer from the good. The Pro-scanning, "hunting you down and killing you" elite, from the "sitting on a gate blasting everything" noobs, and the "can-flipping and suicide ganking" cowards. All those crappy pvp-wannabies threatening to unsub, please, go ahead. Your selfish flow of easy kills have finally been recognised as something that is harming eve's continued growth and development. Your quest for easy, risk-free kills has made low-sec a wasteland.
Eve is not a game where things are delivered on a silver platter. I aplaud the real PVPers, confident and experienced enough to adapt to these changes, and continue to own all that stand before them. They have already learned how to actually PVP. They recognise the duel benifits on increased low-sec traffic, and are excited to see this wasteland become viable again. They want people in low-sec, they want to see them explode. They aren't crying about the fact that they won't be able to shoot them the moment the step through the door. They're aren't crying that their easy risk-free methods and one-sided fights are about to disappear. They know they're is going to be more targets, and they know how to find them.
The only people crying are the skill-less players that are used to their risk-free ganks, and cowardly camps. If their target didn't just come to them, as usuall, then they wouldn't have a clue what to do. Other than whine and unsub of course. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
205
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:49:00 -
[214] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:funny that you say you hope for pvp instead of just going out and getting it like a normal pvper. in reality, you are picking on noob corps, probably because you are awful and know you can't handle anything else. Stupidity isn't lack of knowledge of can flipping mechanics, stupidity is thinking lack of knowledge = stupidity . If anyone is inferior, its the can flipper. Normal pvpers won't stoop so low, they prefer a challenge and targets that actually fight back. Finally CCP is doing something about riskless d-bag piracy. Deal with it.
Personally I'm very glad CCP is finally adding some risk to the douchebag lifestyle, can flippers and suicide gankers had it way too easy before. Essentially zero risk for these scrubs who beat their chest over shooting fish in a barrel. The river of tears over the fact that a little more risk is going to be involved in can flipping is hilarious. Awful players left and right throwing up their hands and claiming EVE pvp is ruined or turning into WoW. LOL. Quoted for truth. Changes to sentries, and flag mechanics, will seperate the crap PVPer from the good. The Pro-scanning, "hunting you down and killing you" elite, from the "sitting on a gate blasting everything" noobs, and the "can-flipping and suicide ganking" cowards. All those crappy pvp-wannabies threatening to unsub, please, go ahead. Your selfish flow of easy kills have finally been recognised as something that is harming eve's continued growth and development. Your quest for easy, risk-free kills has made low-sec a wasteland.Eve is not a game where things are delivered on a silver platter. I aplaud the real PVPers, confident and experienced enough to adapt to these changes, and continue to own all that stand before them. They have already learned how to actually PVP. They recognise the duel benifits on increased low-sec traffic, and are excited to see this wasteland become viable again. They want people in low-sec, they want to see them explode. They aren't crying about the fact that they won't be able to shoot them the moment the step through the door. They're aren't crying that their easy risk-free methods and one-sided fights are about to disappear. They know they're is going to be more targets, and they know how to find them. The only people crying are the skill-less players that are used to their risk-free ganks, and cowardly camps. If their target didn't just come to them, as usuall, then they wouldn't have a clue what to do. Other than whine and unsub of course.
I'm sorry, but you really seem to have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should try some piracy before you paint everybody with the same brush...? Maybe go flip some cans and ninja loot some mission runners.
I'm not very experienced at all, but the mechanics that I've seen in this game so far are very much fun. When I'm ninja'ing L4's and there's a strategic cruiser locked onto me, I know that he can pop me in one shot. But I push the envelope, occasionally get to shoot back/die, and it's great fun for me.
I also like to dabble in dixie pvp just for funs, and don't mind losing ships to much bigger stuff.
So thanks for the effort, but I'm gonna go ahead and count myself out of this little "bad pirate" group you're trying to portray.
My favorite PvP moment |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 22:55:00 -
[215] - Quote
Sigh, the classic "you don't know what your talking about". Got to love that response. I've done loads in eve in the many years i've played, so these responses are literally shots in the dark. This time, your wrong im afraid.
Adalynne Rohks wrote: I'm sorry, but you really seem to have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should try some piracy before you paint everybody with the same brush...? Maybe go flip some cans and ninja loot some mission runners.
I like how you followed this statement with....
Adalynne Rohks wrote:I'm not very experienced at all
Yeah, that was definately the best bit. I guess you fall into the "crap-pvper" side. Sorry eve is getting harder for you, but don't worry, you can always go play wow! |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
206
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:23:00 -
[216] - Quote
I really like how you followed this up with...
Xen Solarus wrote:More Crap
I'm sorry, but it doesn't take a person who's even played the game to realize you're ignorant. You're so busy trying to paint every body with such a broad brush, that you've lost any shred of credibility you could've gained.
The biggest difference, here, between you and me: I can acknowledge that I'm inexperienced and don't know everything. You... yeah. You're out there. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:36:00 -
[217] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:I really like how you followed this up with... Xen Solarus wrote:More Crap I'm sorry, but it doesn't take a person who's even played the game to realize you're ignorant. You're so busy trying to paint every body with such a broad brush, that you've lost any shred of credibility you could've gained. The biggest difference, here, between you and me: I can acknowledge that I'm inexperienced and don't know everything. You... yeah. You're out there.
no, hes right, it was just a shot in the dark. And nobody is painting with a broad brush here. We are obviously talking about a very specific group of pirates, the ones that do all their "pvp" in high sec. You don't have a reason to get butthurt unless you are one of them. Solstice project seems like the only real pvper in this thread. |
Russell Casey
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
184
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:38:00 -
[218] - Quote
I see why CCP never bothered to put flag mechanics into ninja salvaging all the cries for it. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
208
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:40:00 -
[219] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:I really like how you followed this up with... Xen Solarus wrote:More Crap I'm sorry, but it doesn't take a person who's even played the game to realize you're ignorant. You're so busy trying to paint every body with such a broad brush, that you've lost any shred of credibility you could've gained. The biggest difference, here, between you and me: I can acknowledge that I'm inexperienced and don't know everything. You... yeah. You're out there. no, hes right, it was just a shot in the dark. And nobody is painting with a broad brush here. We are obviously talking about a very specific group of pirates, the ones that do all their "pvp" in high sec. You don't have a reason to get butthurt unless you are one of them. Solstice project seems like the only real pvper in this thread.
A very specific group of pirates? Gankers. Suicide gankers. Can flippers. Ninja looters. Ninja salvagers. Gate campers. Griefers. Noob harrassers. Low security criminals.
Yep.
They've all been covered, and apparently they're all the same. Just like carebears, right? |
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:43:00 -
[220] - Quote
I think I must have missed something. How will anything in Crimewave stop a firing squad of tornados from suicide ganking stuffs?
Heh, who wants "good" fights? I just want your loot and suspect flagging makes it much easier to fool people into giving it to me. I had to laugh at the people who are arguing about what's good and bad for pvp around a can in high sec...this is about piracy if I wanted a "good" "fair" fight I would either log on to sisi or play something faster paced.
High sec war decs already allow people to broadcast for allies so for those we're just talking about neutral rr. Flagging neut rr is a whole different animal and really only an aggro timer for repping so they can't dock when shot and the suspect flag kinda makes it dangerous to rep right near an undock spot...that's correct right? I'm not much of a high sec guy other than shopping.
I been flashy for quite a while and shootable by everyone so this part is nothing new. The new wonderful part is going to be when I don't have to have -5 to be shootable by everyone...the navy prevents me from exploiting all the bewbs who chase my taxi shuttles in high sec at the moment. |
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:49:00 -
[221] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:I really like how you followed this up with... Xen Solarus wrote:More Crap I'm sorry, but it doesn't take a person who's even played the game to realize you're ignorant. You're so busy trying to paint every body with such a broad brush, that you've lost any shred of credibility you could've gained. The biggest difference, here, between you and me: I can acknowledge that I'm inexperienced and don't know everything. You... yeah. You're out there. no, hes right, it was just a shot in the dark. And nobody is painting with a broad brush here. We are obviously talking about a very specific group of pirates, the ones that do all their "pvp" in high sec. You don't have a reason to get butthurt unless you are one of them. Solstice project seems like the only real pvper in this thread. A very specific group of pirates? Gankers. Suicide gankers. Can flippers. Ninja looters. Ninja salvagers. Gate campers. Griefers. Noob harrassers. Low security criminals. Yep. They've all been covered, and apparently they're all the same. Just like carebears, right?
if you don't have the mental capacity to debate and understand simple concepts, you should not post. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
499
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:06:00 -
[222] - Quote
I'm not upset about the game being made harder for some people. I'm upset about it being made too easy for some people, and CCP catering to those who whine and complain that game mechanics don't protect them when they're unwilling to protect themselves. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
LilRemmy
Synaptic Void AAA Citizens
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:12:00 -
[223] - Quote
Now one can finally be a true pirate, makes the heist more exciting! |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
348
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:21:00 -
[224] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:This will make my pvp haulers life very hard indeed. Biggest upset however will be looting people wrecks that dont belong to you, which I bet will get far more nubs killed than currently die to jetcan accidents. Same advice given to miners by you and the other resident though men: loot while aligned, make bookmarks, fit a tank. I am able to do it and I am not even a ganker (I just have fun ninjaing T2 salvage in their face), figures. This. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
136
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:24:00 -
[225] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm not upset about the game being made harder for some people. I'm upset about it being made too easy for some people, and CCP catering to those who whine and complain that game mechanics don't protect them when they're unwilling to protect themselves.
It is not a case of "wont" help themselves. It is more like "can't" help themselves. More often than not, the victim has no knowledge or understanding of what is happening to them.
I think it is quite acceptable that any criminal should be fair game to anyone that want's to have a pop. I sure would. I truely think it is funny that these "PVP'ers" want to "PVP", but only when they are at an assumed advantage. When they have to potentially defend themselves from bigger and better players, oh noes thats not fair.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
500
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:28:00 -
[226] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm not upset about the game being made harder for some people. I'm upset about it being made too easy for some people, and CCP catering to those who whine and complain that game mechanics don't protect them when they're unwilling to protect themselves. It is not a case of "wont" help themselves. It is more like "can't" help themselves. More often than not, the victim has no knowledge or understanding of what is happening to them. You know you can do one of three things.
You could either: not take the can that he flips on you not shoot at the obviously superior ship when it turns red get your corpmates to shoot at him.
It took me a matter of maybe a month or so playing this game before I understood can flipping mechanics. It's seriously not that hard, and no matter what your position you're not defenseless against it. Stop pretending that you are. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
137
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:47:00 -
[227] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm not upset about the game being made harder for some people. I'm upset about it being made too easy for some people, and CCP catering to those who whine and complain that game mechanics don't protect them when they're unwilling to protect themselves. It is not a case of "wont" help themselves. It is more like "can't" help themselves. More often than not, the victim has no knowledge or understanding of what is happening to them. You know you can do one of three things. You could either: not take the can that he flips on you not shoot at the obviously superior ship when it turns red get your corpmates to shoot at him. It took me a matter of maybe a month or so playing this game before I understood can flipping mechanics. It's seriously not that hard, and no matter what your position you're not defenseless against it. Stop pretending that you are.
It took me exactly 2 weeks to learn about Canflipping. I learned the hard way. The KM is in this thread. The justifications of my actions are in this thread. I have first hand experience of canflippers preying on the weak and unknowledgable.
When I first started playing, I thought the frigate was the start ships, and you upgraded to a destroyer then a cruiser. I believed a cruiser would wipe the floor of any frigate. As I learned more of the game I realise this is not the case. How many 14 day olds in an osprey think they can kill a rifter or a merlin? I know I did. Thats what you prey on. This lack of knowledge. Pure and simple.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
500
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:48:00 -
[228] - Quote
And then you learned that EVE was a harsh place, and that the more you knew about game mechanics, the better. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4368
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 00:56:00 -
[229] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:I truely think it is funny that these "PVP'ers" want to "PVP", but only when they are at an assumed advantage. When they have to potentially defend themselves from bigger and better players, oh noes thats not fair.
Are you talking about the people that want Crimewatch? "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
137
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 01:02:00 -
[230] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:And then you learned that EVE was a harsh place, and that the more you knew about game mechanics, the better.
Oh I totally agree with you there, and EVE should be cruel, and harsh. But that also applies to the "Pirates" that have had it easy for all this time. Why shouldn't Pirates also experience this cruel, and harsh universe?
They have made sure they have hit home how hard and cruel EVE is, with relatively low to zero risk to themselves. This change will make it cruel and harsh to Pirates as well.
|
|
Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 01:13:00 -
[231] - Quote
Butzewutze wrote:If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: would you say i deserved it or would you say i got griefed? That implies that I do nothing to deserve the punch, which isn't what we're discussing here.
If you're sitting in a bar minding your own business and I walk over and steal your beer I would probably deserve the whack and you would have cause to feel aggrieved if I then beat you up.
Butzewutze wrote:I would be fine with "everybody on grid" but not with the "hired mercs" part because that essentially means "all". How do you figure that? 'On grid' is 'on grid' GÇô how does the presence of hired mercs convert 'on grid' into 'all EVE players currently online'?
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 01:17:00 -
[232] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Oh I totally agree with you there, and EVE should be cruel, and harsh. But that also applies to the "Pirates" that have had it easy for all this time. Why shouldn't Pirates also experience this cruel, and harsh universe?
They have made sure they have hit home how hard and cruel EVE is, with relatively low to zero risk to themselves. This change will make it cruel and harsh to Pirates as well.
exactly. They don't like the taste of their own medicine. LOVE CCP for this change. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
500
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 01:46:00 -
[233] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:
Oh I totally agree with you there, and EVE should be cruel, and harsh. But that also applies to the "Pirates" that have had it easy for all this time. Why shouldn't Pirates also experience this cruel, and harsh universe?
They have made sure they have hit home how hard and cruel EVE is, with relatively low to zero risk to themselves. This change will make it cruel and harsh to Pirates as well.
exactly. They don't like the taste of their own medicine. LOVE CCP for this change. Why? Are you a constant victim of can flipping? If you are that says a lot about your intelligence. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
209
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 01:48:00 -
[234] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:A very specific group of pirates? Gankers. Suicide gankers. Can flippers. Ninja looters. Ninja salvagers. Gate campers. Griefers. Noob harrassers. Low security criminals.
Yep.
They've all been covered, and apparently they're all the same. Just like carebears, right? if you don't have the mental capacity to debate and understand simple concepts, you should not post.
Irony - i-ro-ny
Noun: Nerf Burger's attempt to write a post about understanding simple concepts
Adjective: Of or like Nerf Burger
Synonyms: Nerf Burgery, derpy, derp derp mcderp
Looks like we're done here. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
500
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 01:51:00 -
[235] - Quote
I suppose part of the reason I'm defending can flipping is because it is noob level PVP, and all you're really doing by removing can flipping is making the barrier to entry level PVP that much higher. Not everybody wants to join RvB or EVE-Uni. I got my first kills can flipping, and while it was a thrill at the time I knew there were much better ways to PVP. It lost its appeal rather quickly for me. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 02:04:00 -
[236] - Quote
I'm astonished at all the crap in this thread about taking the right precautions, reacting (or not reacting) sensibly, corpmates, alliances, RR support etc etc.
The plain fact is that after the mining barge changes there's no need for established miners to use jetcans and the only players doing so will be newbies in mining frigates (old or new) or, at most, mining cruisers.
As already said, the vast majority of those players won't even know what's happening to them, let alone know how to deal with it.
Corpmates? Alliances? Again, the great majority will be too new to know what to look for in a corp, let alone have had the time to find a worthwhile one that suits them and will accept them.
So they'll have neither the knowledge nor the back-up to help them.
The few flippers who use the mechanic in the (somewhat forlorn) hope of getting a decent fight will have to look elsewhere for their PvP.
That will leave the field to just the bullies and cowards who haven't yet grown out of beating up the new younger kids in the schoolyard.
And they will thoroughly deserve to have their arses shot off by anyone who finds them. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 02:47:00 -
[237] - Quote
Oraac Ensor wrote:I'm astonished at all the crap in this thread about taking the right precautions, reacting (or not reacting) sensibly, corpmates, alliances, RR support etc etc.
The plain fact is that after the mining barge changes there's no need for established miners to use jetcans and the only players doing so will be newbies in mining frigates (old or new) or, at most, mining cruisers.
As already said, the vast majority of those players won't even know what's happening to them, let alone know how to deal with it.
Corpmates? Alliances? Again, the great majority will be too new to know what to look for in a corp, let alone have had the time to find a worthwhile one that suits them and will accept them.
So they'll have neither the knowledge nor the back-up to help them.
The few flippers who use the mechanic in the (somewhat forlorn) hope of getting a decent fight will have to look elsewhere for their PvP.
That will leave the field to just the bullies and cowards who haven't yet grown out of beating up the new younger kids in the schoolyard.
And they will thoroughly deserve to have their arses shot off by anyone who finds them.
well said and I agree. It really is amazing the number or derps in this thread who cannot grasp the reality of the situation. Pro-can flippers were never very smart to begin with I guess, otherwise they would be doing real pvp instead of picking on newer players who pose no challenge whatsoever. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
502
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 02:48:00 -
[238] - Quote
Enjoying how you continue to ignore my points. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 02:51:00 -
[239] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I suppose part of the reason I'm defending can flipping is because it is noob level PVP, and all you're really doing by removing can flipping is making the barrier to entry level PVP that much higher. Not everybody wants to join RvB or EVE-Uni. I got my first kills can flipping, and while it was a thrill at the time I knew there were much better ways to PVP. It lost its appeal rather quickly for me.
its not noob level pvp, its what awful players who suck at pvp do to noobs without any threat of retaliation. The cowards choice. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
502
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 02:55:00 -
[240] - Quote
Then why did a lot of noobs I knew from my noob days start out with can flipping and later moved on to better PVP?
Are you getting can flipped by the same people all the time? That says even more about your intelligence. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
|
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 03:01:00 -
[241] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Then why did a lot of noobs I knew from my noob days start out with can flipping and later moved on to better PVP?
Are you getting can flipped by the same people all the time? That says even more about your intelligence.
because they didn't know any better? Sure, people might try can-flipping untill they realize its for losers. Its not really any more noob-level pvp than anything else. Your friends could have just as easily started out gate camping or going into wormholes. Less stupid assumptions, please. |
Nashuar Attor
Atomic Production
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 03:03:00 -
[242] - Quote
Why is canflipping a thing that needs to be fixed? Sure, if you're lazy and can't be bothered to take your ore to a station. I reckon leave it. To take it away will just make what every pvper says about miners true. If you want to avoid being canflipped you just have to mine smarter, not get the system changed. It's this level of freedom/danger that makes realively dull forms of play more interesting. Next people will be asking for rats to be removed from belts. Fair suck of the savloy people.
FYI I'm not a canflipper and I do a fair bit of mining. Just play the game. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 03:05:00 -
[243] - Quote
Nashuar Attor wrote:Why is canflipping a thing that needs to be fixed? .
because its currently zero risk and only hurts the game because the targets are almost always newer players who don't know the mechanics of what people can do to you. The douchebags who are awful at pvp will prey on such lack of knowledge for easymode kills and petty thrills. Its pathetic. This change is long overdue.
Its was also extremely lame theives could only be attacked by their chosen target. |
Nashuar Attor
Atomic Production
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 03:08:00 -
[244] - Quote
Fair call. |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
209
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 04:03:00 -
[245] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:its not noob level pvp, its what awful players who suck at pvp do to noobs without any threat of retaliation. The cowards choice.
Sure... I could be mistaken... but I could've sworn that mining was the cowards choice. Hmm... Whodathunk? Miners telling other people about coward choices...
I am amused
And for the internet's record, I've got nothing against miners. The hyperbole spewing out of this one amazes me, though. Real dedication to the trolling arts. |
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 04:04:00 -
[246] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:
Its was also extremely lame theives could only be attacked by their chosen target.
Yeah, now that will change overnight...it isn't like you have the option right now to bring in logi to aid that victim of theft. I'm sure once shooting him is on the table everything will change in your favor. Oh glory days!
|
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
515
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:07:00 -
[247] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Nashuar Attor wrote:Why is canflipping a thing that needs to be fixed? . because its currently zero risk and only hurts the game because the targets are almost always newer players who don't know the mechanics of what people can do to you. The douchebags who are awful at pvp will prey on such lack of knowledge for easymode kills and petty thrills. Its pathetic. This change is long overdue. Its was also extremely lame theives could only be attacked by their chosen target.
Who the hell canflips anymore? At its core, if you ever wanted a kill out of it - it requires the miner to make an unforced error. Of course, 80% of them are bots, the rest are out to lunch, and jetcan mining is completely needless with the new barges. My time is too valuable to waste flying around waiting for miners to make a mistake.
Why wait for someone to make a mistake when you can just unilaterally blow them up?
Ganking is soooo much more rewarding, not in terms of ISK, but because it makes the victim feel so powerless. Miners get angry because they feel like there was 'nothing they could do about it'. (Untrue, of course - but the concept of 'tanking' never really penetrates their thick monkey craniums.)
So, naturally, I do everything I can to reinforce that sense of hopelessness and despair - by hunting and killing them over and over. Eventually, they quit. And less idiot carebears makes EVE a better place.
Only adjustment that I can see that needs to be made: All player wrecks should simply turn blue, similar to how Concorded ships are now. If you kill a target through ganking or standard PVP, the victor should be able to loot it without taking gate gun fire or getting shot at by bystanders.
Result: anyone can steal from a wreck, but the victor can scoop the wreck without getting BBQ'd by other players or gate guns. (IE gate guns engaging 'suspects'.)
EDIT: and oh yes, let me clue you in: The 'death' of canflipping/ 'mission runner baiting' has nothing to do the suspect flag - and everything to do with the 'Safeties' they plan on implementing. Really, who cares if other people can engage you? Thats what you are generally looking for. As long as opposing RR is equally vulnerable (ie; not, stupidly, protected by Concord) its all good. You are rarely ever going to see random '3rd party white knights' in someone's mission space anyway..... |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:34:00 -
[248] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Nashuar Attor wrote:Why is canflipping a thing that needs to be fixed? . because its currently zero risk and only hurts the game because the targets are almost always newer players who don't know the mechanics of what people can do to you. The douchebags who are awful at pvp will prey on such lack of knowledge for easymode kills and petty thrills. Its pathetic. This change is long overdue. Its was also extremely lame theives could only be attacked by their chosen target. Who the hell canflips anymore? At its core, if you ever wanted a kill out of it - it requires the miner to make an unforced error. Of course, 80% of them are bots, the rest are out to lunch, and jetcan mining is completely needless with the new barges. My time is too valuable to waste flying around waiting for miners to make a mistake. Why wait for someone to make a mistake when you can just unilaterally blow them up? Ganking is soooo much more rewarding, not in terms of ISK, but because it makes the victim feel so powerless. Miners get angry because they feel like there was 'nothing they could do about it'..
sounds like you are projecting what you would feel, being an angsty, butthurt-at-the-world kind of person who tries to be a d-bag to anyone you can so they can feel a little of what you are feeling all the time Who else would dedicate so much time and effort to annoy people than a disgrunted loser? I'm sure its only mildly rewarding to low-life trash, relatively, and we know probably much less than gankers make it out to be. Normal people won't bother to stoop to that level for kills, they prefer a challenge.
The reality is that miners make so much money afk, most of them could hardly care about getting ganked. I know I'm long overdue for a gank, I fit 0 tank and it has been totally worth it. If I got ganked at this point, I would not even care. I easily make 100x what you do while afk, then I use that isk to do real pvp, something more challenging that shooting fish in a barrel. Really, what you are doing are the actions of a pathetic individual. I honestly pity you. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
219
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 05:46:00 -
[249] - Quote
Cara Rahl wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:No longer can people steal your can If something is jettisoned you throw it away, abandon and discard it as something unwanted. You lose your ownership of what you threw away. The very term "jettison" should already tell you that what you are doing can cause interaction with other people. To complain about this is pretty hilarious actually. Imo it's been a mistake and ridiculously dumb thing to begin with that CCP added ownership to jettisoned containers (and wrecks while we're at it, which also should never have happened and not have hindered salvaging to become a proper profession and not this bastard thing it is today) and should never have been done. But I won't complain, cause it let's me shoot at people which is more fun anyway. And the "risk" is what you make of it. On both sides. No one forces you to shoot and no one hinders you to bring RR. Not to mention that not everyone is a serious threat. This is actually the most logical thing I've seen posted here.
I can't say I'm against the idea of a universal criminal flag for theft. I can say I'm against calling taking something someone threw out theft.
CCP should change jet cans. If you launch the contents of your hold into space, and didn't first put it into a canister you purchased and own, then it should be considered discarded waste. If people want to jet can than they should be using purchased secure or unsecured canisters that they put into space for that purpose, and stealing from those canisters should be considered theft.
And while they're at it, secure containers should hackable. You know, using the hacking skill.
(personally I see this as a way to create more pvp in high sec at the expense of discouraging can flipping for those people that only do it to try and get defenseless targets they can kill without repercussion. The fact is, most people are using can flipping in the hopes that the person they're doing it to doesn't realize what's happened so that they can kill them without concord responding. People don't can flip for "good fights". The entire thing is designed to trick someone into become a legal target that can be blown up.
This change is just an attempt to stop those guys. People who just want a fight in high sec are still going to do it. It's not like you can't fit a cloak.)
|
Abel Merkabah
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
104
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 06:10:00 -
[250] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Cara Rahl wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:No longer can people steal your can If something is jettisoned you throw it away, abandon and discard it as something unwanted. You lose your ownership of what you threw away. The very term "jettison" should already tell you that what you are doing can cause interaction with other people. To complain about this is pretty hilarious actually. Imo it's been a mistake and ridiculously dumb thing to begin with that CCP added ownership to jettisoned containers (and wrecks while we're at it, which also should never have happened and not have hindered salvaging to become a proper profession and not this bastard thing it is today) and should never have been done. But I won't complain, cause it let's me shoot at people which is more fun anyway. And the "risk" is what you make of it. On both sides. No one forces you to shoot and no one hinders you to bring RR. Not to mention that not everyone is a serious threat. This is actually the most logical thing I've seen posted here. I can't say I'm against the idea of a universal criminal flag for theft. I can say I'm against calling taking something someone threw out theft. CCP should change jet cans. If you launch the contents of your hold into space, and didn't first put it into a canister you purchased and own, then it should be considered discarded waste. If people want to jet can than they should be using purchased secure or unsecured canisters that they put into space for that purpose, and stealing from those canisters should be considered theft. And while they're at it, secure containers should hackable. You know, using the hacking skill. (personally I see this as a way to create more pvp in high sec at the expense of discouraging can flipping for those people that only do it to try and get defenseless targets they can kill without repercussion. The fact is, most people are using can flipping in the hopes that the person they're doing it to doesn't realize what's happened so that they can kill them without concord responding. People don't can flip for "good fights". The entire thing is designed to trick someone into become a legal target that can be blown up. This change is just an attempt to stop those guys. People who just want a fight in high sec are still going to do it. It's not like you can't fit a cloak.)
Every gudfight I've had in secure space has started with a can flip...so how are consensual duals going to be initiated in this new system?
Don't get me wrong, I don't care if can flipping exists or not; but if I'm setting up a gudfight, I don't wantmyself or my opponent to get concorded or attacked by gate guns; not to mention I wouldn't want either myself or my opponent flagged as free for all. "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." |
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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
83
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 06:48:00 -
[251] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?
Lol I know that guy that killed you.
All you whining spineless carebears HTFU.
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Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.08.16 07:19:00 -
[252] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'm not upset about the game being made harder for some people. I'm upset about it being made too easy for some people, and CCP catering to those who whine and complain that game mechanics don't protect them when they're unwilling to protect themselves. It is not a case of "wont" help themselves. It is more like "can't" help themselves. More often than not, the victim has no knowledge or understanding of what is happening to them. I think it is quite acceptable that any criminal should be fair game to anyone that want's to have a pop. I sure would. I truely think it is funny that these "PVP'ers" want to "PVP", but only when they are at an assumed advantage. When they have to potentially defend themselves from bigger and better players, oh noes thats not fair.
thats not correct, case in point, Scope chat. Every day we explain to newbe miners that to be 100% safe all they have to do is
Use mission belts to mine in (ask mish runners if you can mine them) Dscan while in the mish belt (an show them how) LEAVE!! the high pop systems, there is hundreds of systems that never see a ganker. Pay attention to local, learn who the gankers are in the region an -10 them (it isn't fullproof, but it helps)
to put it as simply as possible, take responsibility for your own game instead of demanding CCP play for you. |
Suvari Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 07:20:00 -
[253] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.
Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game. Zero Risk? Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from. Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic. Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? Lol I know that guy that killed you. All you whining spineless carebears HTFU.
your just upset because you can't gank noobs with impunity anymore, maybe now you have to actually enter into PVP with risk attached, we'll see who the real PVP'ers are, and who are the wannabee's, cut the wheat from the chaff so to speak, i think the tears over this say more about the people that are complaining about it, tbh, than those that arent. Eve evolves, you have to too |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1864
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 07:21:00 -
[254] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:its not noob level pvp, its what awful players who suck at pvp do to noobs without any threat of retaliation. The cowards choice. Sure... I could be mistaken... but I could've sworn that mining was the cowards choice. Hmm... Whodathunk? Miners telling other people about coward choices... I am amused And for the internet's record, I've got nothing against miners. The hyperbole spewing out of this one amazes me, though. Real dedication to the trolling arts.
Why would a miner be a coward? There's thousands and thousands who have loves SCI FI movies including those where people build their own empires or handle industrial ships.
Anyone recalls the latest Star Trek? The Romulans were piloting a massively huge mining barge...
I know being on the "peaceful, worlds builders side" might be unappealing for many players but for many it is and they don't deserve the title of coward. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
515
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 07:30:00 -
[255] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:
sounds like you are projecting what you would feel, being an angsty, butthurt-at-the-world kind of person who tries to be a d-bag to anyone you can so they can feel a little of what you are feeling all the time Who else would dedicate so much time and effort to annoy people than a disgrunted loser? I'm sure its only mildly rewarding to low-life trash, relatively, and we know probably much less than gankers make it out to be. Normal people won't bother to stoop to that level for kills, they prefer a challenge.
The reality is that miners make so much money afk, most of them could hardly care about getting ganked. I know I'm long overdue for a gank, I fit 0 tank and it has been totally worth it. If I got ganked at this point, I would not even care. I easily make 100x what you do while afk, then I use that isk to do real pvp, something more challenging that shooting fish in a barrel. Really, what you are doing are the actions of a pathetic individual. I honestly pity you.
Wow. You are hung-up on ISK. Everyone knows that mining ISK is noob ISK. Miners are generally mining because they need to - to "fund PVP" or whatever. Heh. 'Funding PVP'. I honestly haven't thought about 'what I make' in years. Once you've PLEXed infinite on passive income, it doesn't really matter. I mean, what are you going to do? Buy a personal fleet of Titans? No, its much better to punish the stupid.
Wot I like? EVE lets you painlessly leverage those deep ISK reserves and abuse younger players on a fixed income via suicide ganking. You kill the Exhumer, pod the pilot to maximize the pain. Then you loot - not because the ISK is important, but simply to deny the miner any kind of recovery. Demonstrate to the miner that you can -and will- kill them repeatedly, and often they will compound their losses by sending hundreds of millions of ISK to simply be left alone.
The ISK itself is a meaningless drop in the ocean, but when its squeezed from some broke-ass miner's wallet, it makes me just the tiniest bit happy.
Sometimes they don't pay - they just rage and I blow them up again, or pay my friends to do it. That makes me happy too. Other times I discover that the miner eventually quit and biomassed - and I get a stiffy. Doing good deeds tends to have that effect on me. And ridding EVE of miner scum is a very good deed. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 07:37:00 -
[256] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Homo Jesus wrote:Tippia wrote:Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy. Yep, who cares what a random know-nothing thinks will happen. Crimewatch is easy mode for freighter pilots. You'll be able to fly around anywhere you want with whatever cargo in highsec because nobody's going to try ganking you. Why? Any freighter that gets ganked full of cargo will need freighters to scoop the loot. What happens when the freighter scoops the loot? With crimewatch, they'll get flagged to anyone and everyone and be kill on sight. Nobody's going to try ganking freighters because then anyone will be able to shoot your freighter. If this isn't dumbing down the game, I don't know what is.
No its the taking responsibility for your actions, you steal you become flagged as a criminal, no dumbing down there, just emergent game play
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Adalynne Rohks
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
209
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Posted - 2012.08.16 07:56:00 -
[257] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Why would a miner be a coward? There's thousands and thousands who have loves SCI FI movies including those where people build their own empires or handle industrial ships.
Anyone recalls the latest Star Trek? The Romulans were piloting a massively huge mining barge...
I know being on the "peaceful, worlds builders side" might be unappealing for many players but for many it is and they don't deserve the title of coward.
Like I said, I've got nothing against miners. Different strokes for different folks. It's just that the troll is so strong in this nerf berger, that it's trying to call ALL high sec pirates cowards. That's even more ridiculous than calling all the miners cowards, right? So yeah. Just using a ridiculous statement to illustrate how ridiculous the original statement was. stated... before... the statement... |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
107
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 09:15:00 -
[258] - Quote
Adalynne Rohks wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Why would a miner be a coward? There's thousands and thousands who have loves SCI FI movies including those where people build their own empires or handle industrial ships.
Anyone recalls the latest Star Trek? The Romulans were piloting a massively huge mining barge...
I know being on the "peaceful, worlds builders side" might be unappealing for many players but for many it is and they don't deserve the title of coward. Like I said, I've got nothing against miners. Different strokes for different folks. It's just that the troll is so strong in this nerf berger, that it's trying to call ALL high sec pirates cowards. That's even more ridiculous than calling all the miners cowards, right? So yeah. Just using a ridiculous statement to illustrate how ridiculous the original statement was. stated... before... the statement...
Burger is ... passionate and to some degree if you play a game that draws on your emotions, than its a game worth playing. I have seen and met many players like Burger and what I find to be the commonality among these types of vocal players is a general inability to adapt to in game and meta game events. That flaw is common in gamers as a whole but in Eve this often pushes people to become extremly inflexible in their gameplay.
I find myself repeating this often but Eve is not about any single thing, it is about opertunity and knowing how to find it. You play the oppertunity. If thats sucide ganking, than so be it, if its mining, than so be it. There is no aspect of Eve gaming Im not willing to get involved in if I see the opertunity to advance, earn ISK and effectively win Eve. If your not playing this game in this fashion, your doing it wrong. If its a bad time to be a miner, dont be one, find other oppertunities. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
154
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 11:44:00 -
[259] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:malcovas Henderson wrote:Are you so dense to believe that? Canflippers have it so hardI was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this. Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is? Lol I know that guy that killed you. All you whining spineless carebears HTFU.
I never understood this phrase from Gankers and Griefers. If everybody did what was told to them. Tanked their Hulks, Escorted their haulers. Got mercs to help out. Fly what they could afford. All you would be left with is newbs. You actually need people to be ignorant and unknowledgable to continue what you do. Also it could be said.... HTFU? practice what you preach
And to call carebears spineless is a little bit OTT. Considering they fly ship fits not suited at all to PVP. But nethertheless still undock with great adversity to the playstyle. It is more likely to be the Gankers and Griefers are the spineless ones. Attacking low - no risk targets.
Now don't get me wrong here. I will not say that Ganking, and griefing affects numbers in the player base. But it can reduce the numbers of people who EVE is not for. Which is a good thing IMHO. With the relative ease that this playstyle is carried out, surely change is needed. Crimewatch if implemented, will not stop you from canflipping. What it will do is those that want easy kills, and prey on the weak with little or no risk, to now have real risk to their action. Those that are True Pirates will not change. These are the Pirates that deserve respect. They already fly around in Hi as -10 sec status. This mechanic will not affect them.
o7 |
Auar
Con and Sons
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 13:01:00 -
[260] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Adalynne Rohks wrote:I really like how you followed this up with... Xen Solarus wrote:More Crap I'm sorry, but it doesn't take a person who's even played the game to realize you're ignorant. You're so busy trying to paint every body with such a broad brush, that you've lost any shred of credibility you could've gained. The biggest difference, here, between you and me: I can acknowledge that I'm inexperienced and don't know everything. You... yeah. You're out there. no, hes right, it was just a shot in the dark. And nobody is painting with a broad brush here. We are obviously talking about a very specific group of pirates, the ones that do all their "pvp" in high sec. You don't have a reason to get butthurt unless you are one of them. Solstice project seems like the only real pvper in this thread.
No he is not right and it is too broad a brush. I pvp in lowsec where I live, I pvp'd in WH space where my last corp lived and if I am bored i will go flip cans and enjoy the risk and danger while doing it.
With this, over the top, change I will be less likely to take part in a pastime that I enjoy. It's not the only way to have fun in Eve for me but certainly was entertaining. You are changing my game-play. I do not live in high sec can flipping all day and i will bet there are plenty out there like me. The same people you have been arguing with and trying to belittle.
Auar |
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Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 13:12:00 -
[261] - Quote
its really pathetic how CCP is bending over for the bots an afkers.. they are turning EVE into wow :(... Its becoming more an more wow an less EVE every patch now. Let alone this moronic **** about making anyone that kills flagged to everyone in HS, since it isn't the idiots fault for attacking the flipper... Obliviously its the can flippers fault that the idiot attacks him.....
typical wow mentality if no self responsibility. I had a fun one tonight, I jump in on this moron with 5 macks botting, I attack 1 an he suddenly jumps a tengu in like thats gonna stop me. with 3 DCU's on it...idiot then threatens me since it isn't his fault hes sitting there boiting with macks that are totally unfitted.
basically todays EVE players are professional victims an its never their fault. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:23:00 -
[262] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:its really pathetic how CCP is bending over for the bots an afkers.. they are turning EVE into wow :(... Its becoming more an more wow an less EVE every patch now. Let alone this moronic **** about making anyone that kills flagged to everyone in HS, since it isn't the idiots fault for attacking the flipper... Obliviously its the can flippers fault that the idiot attacks him.....
typical wow mentality if no self responsibility. I had a fun one tonight, I jump in on this moron with 5 macks botting, I attack 1 an he suddenly jumps a tengu in like thats gonna stop me. with 3 DCU's on it...idiot then threatens me since it isn't his fault hes sitting there boiting with macks that are totally unfitted.
basically todays EVE players are professional victims an its never their fault.
Are you really crying about aggressors having to take some risks? LOL.
Clearly, you do not have the capacity to think rationally and are in no position to call others "idiots".
It is really amazing how so many disgruntled losers feel the need to take their anger out on miners instead of targets that will fight back. Cowards and scrubs trying to take revenge on the world. Glad I don't feel the need to stoop so low. Normal people would prefer a challenge than to shoot fish in a barrel. I'm glad CCP is taking away your riskless, easymode "pvp".
I'm really glad that miner ganking is possible, but to dedicate very much time into annoying random people on the internet, instead of those who actually deserve to get **** on and clearly would rage more, is indicative of a sore loser trying to share his pain. Surely these miner gankers and can flippers would rage at least 10x harder than any miner they kill. Personally I prefer to blow up can flippers and would be suicide gankers because I know they are already in emotional pain and actually deserve it.
when you blow up a miner, they really probably don't think much of it, that they are overdue, and can recover losses quickly with minimal effort. When you blow up some angst-filled loser who dedicates all his time to being a douchebag to random people, you know they are probably jumping up and down, screaming at their monitor and pulling their hair out. You know who you are. |
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
96
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:26:00 -
[263] - Quote
Suvari Khashour wrote:your just upset because you can't gank noobs with impunity anymore, maybe now you have to actually enter into PVP with risk attached, we'll see who the real PVP'ers are, and who are the wannabee's, cut the wheat from the chaff so to speak, i think the tears over this say more about the people that are complaining about it, tbh, than those that arent. Eve evolves, you have to too
But I don't gank noobs at all? LOL.
I only care that the only way you carebears can defend yourself is when CCP changes mechanics. Pretty weak, thus I'm telling you to HTFU.
If anything, I applaud the people killing these miners and newer players. It gives them an idea of what EvE is, so what they lose is a t1 fit osprey or bantam. Not a raven navy issue 3 months later. |
lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
15
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:36:00 -
[264] - Quote
What I learned from this thread:
1. Knowledge is no longer power.
If someone is unaware of game mechanics and you take advantage of them, you're a 'bully'. If someone is unaware of game mechanics and a pop up box informs them of said mechanic, yet they still IGNORE the warning, and you take advantage of that, you're a bully. Oh and a coward to boot. If someone is unaware of game mechanics, is taken advantage of, and still does not learn their lesson, your STILL a bully bla bla bla... If someone is unaware of game mechanics, it should ALWAYS be CCP's fault to change the game mechanics to suit them.
2. No longer will we need to take responsibility for our actions.
If someone is flagged to you, it counts as 'aggression' and they should be punished by EVERYONE. If someone is flagged to you, and you have a choice of whether to shoot them first, they are CLEARLY the aggressor and left you with NO choice. If someone makes themselves an easy kill, they shouldn't be blamed for it despite repeated warnings in pop up boxes, in forums, in advice available from chat etc. Instead, CCP should make sure nothing atrocious like NOT tanking your own ships/investment, IGNORING popup boxes etc. ever happens again.
3. Everyone who agrees with me is a sane, mature, and eloquent individual. Everyone who doesn't agree with me does not warrant any manners and I should proceed to insult them in a childish manner. Clearly I am in the right, and there should be no opinions contrary to mine, open to discussion on an online forum.
4. Further to above, everyone who shoots people in a MMO with PVP as a main part of the game is a coward, bully, scumbag blablabla... Clearly, these people are also sociopaths in real life, live in their mom's basements, and have no more toilet paper (and a very muscular right arm.
5. EVE is designed to be a cold, harsh universe. However this should not apply to anyone that is risk averse. They should be left alone by everyone else. In fact, CCP should design a special hat, or make their ships a special rainbow colour with lots of fluff so other players will know that they need their hands held.
Great thread! Very educational! |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
515
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 16:56:00 -
[265] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote: I'm really glad that miner ganking is possible, but to dedicate very much time into annoying random people on the internet, instead of those who actually deserve to get **** on and clearly would rage more, is indicative of a sore loser trying to share his pain. Surely these miner gankers and can flippers would rage at least 10x harder than any miner they kill. Personally I prefer to blow up can flippers and would be suicide gankers because I know they are already in emotional pain and actually deserve it.
when you blow up a miner, they really probably don't think much of it, that they are overdue, and can recover losses quickly with minimal effort. When you blow up some angst-filled loser who dedicates all his time to being a douchebag to random people, you know they are probably jumping up and down, screaming at their monitor and pulling their hair out. You know who you are.
You think a suicide ganker 'gets mad' if he loses a suicide ganking ship? Really? Thats hilarious. You really don't know very much, do you?
And I can speak from long experience - miners don't like it when they lose their Hulks. Some show it more than others, and miner lol-'earnings' vary with mineral prices....but the wonder of basic math reveals that it takes FAR longer to replace a Hulk (many, many hours) than it does to pop one - (about 10 seconds, with a couple minutes of setup...)
Also, extra silly points awarded - for calling people cowards while simultaneously using an obv posting-alt.
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Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:15:00 -
[266] - Quote
Can-flippers haunt the noob systems for a reason: they're looking for easy kills. They can get "real" PVP any time they want out in losec or null, but of course they don't want real PVP -- they want cheap kills to pad their killboard stats.
I've always considered flippers and gankers more a nuisance than a threat. Your losses can be big early on before you've skilled up, but if you can afford to fly even a T1 barge you can afford to replace it. You can get a Retriever now for about 20M ISK, and most players skilled enough to fly a Ret can replace it in an hour or so. Most don't even have to replace the loss because they've already got several spares.
Griefers and gankers do it for the lulz, not the ISK. Deny them the lulz and they'll go bother someone else.
You're going to lose ships in EVE. The hardest thing to learn as a noob is not to let ship losses bother you. Losing ships is inevitable -- in fact, EVE's economy wouldn't function without a lot of ships getting blowed up all the time. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose, and take your losses as a cost of doing business.
That being said: don't get a rep for being an easy target. Fight back, always. Never go down without making the attacker pay. Gankers like other predators are looking for easy prey. Make yourself a real pain in the ass to kill. Make it completely unprofitable to take you down. (This is why I harp on tanking your mining barges properly, even in hisec space. If every Hulk and Mack in EVE were properly tanked, Hulkageddon would have faded away years ago due to lack of interest.)
|
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:25:00 -
[267] - Quote
lollerwaffle wrote:What I learned from this thread:
1. Knowledge is no longer power.
If someone is unaware of game mechanics and you take advantage of them, you're a 'bully'. If someone is unaware of game mechanics and a pop up box informs them of said mechanic, yet they still IGNORE the warning, and you take advantage of that, you're a bully. Oh and a coward to boot. If someone is unaware of game mechanics, is taken advantage of, and still does not learn their lesson, your STILL a bully bla bla bla... If someone is unaware of game mechanics, it should ALWAYS be CCP's fault to change the game mechanics to suit them.
2. No longer will we need to take responsibility for our actions.
If someone is flagged to you, it counts as 'aggression' and they should be punished by EVERYONE. If someone is flagged to you, and you have a choice of whether to shoot them first, they are CLEARLY the aggressor and left you with NO choice. If someone makes themselves an easy kill, they shouldn't be blamed for it despite repeated warnings in pop up boxes, in forums, in advice available from chat etc. Instead, CCP should make sure nothing atrocious like NOT tanking your own ships/investment, IGNORING popup boxes etc. ever happens again.
3. Everyone who agrees with me is a sane, mature, and eloquent individual. Everyone who doesn't agree with me does not warrant any manners and I should proceed to insult them in a childish manner. Clearly I am in the right, and there should be no opinions contrary to mine, open to discussion on an online forum.
4. Further to above, everyone who shoots people in a MMO with PVP as a main part of the game is a coward, bully, scumbag blablabla... Clearly, these people are also sociopaths in real life, live in their mom's basements, and have no more toilet paper (and a very muscular right arm.
5. EVE is designed to be a cold, harsh universe. However this should not apply to anyone that is risk averse. They should be left alone by everyone else. In fact, CCP should design a special hat, or make their ships a special rainbow colour with lots of fluff so other players will know that they need their hands held.
Great thread! Very educational!
I'm just curious as to why you feel it's your duty to enlighten noobs as to the "proper" way to play the game. They're paying the same subscription fees you are, and have the same expectation of having an enjoyable experience that you do.
EVE isn't a job. It's not the frigging Army. It's a game, and one that too many people take way too seriously.
That whole "cold, hard universe" thing gets trotted out by every ganking douchebag in EVE, and I'm sick of it. If you're so seriously into the cold, hard aspects of EVE, if you're such a legendary bad-ass, why aren't you mixing it up out in losec or null? Why are you trolling noobs in 1.0 systems for their pathetic little can of Veld?
Griefing noobs should be an immediate death-sentence in high. The game mechanics prevented this until now, but I'm glad to see that CCP is taking the problem seriously.
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Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 17:25:00 -
[268] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote: You think a suicide ganker 'gets mad' if he loses a suicide ganking ship? Really? Thats hilarious. You really don't know very much, do you?
not too bright are you? I guess its typical of someone who stoops to shooting noobs in a barrel for their petty thrills. Most suicide gankers have orcas with all their ships in it and usually a noctis. Maybe if you weren't so awful and afraid of pvp you would be choosing targets that actually care when they get blown up, are equipped with actual weapons, and can't recover their losses with afk work inside a day. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:03:00 -
[269] - Quote
I think some bittervets forget how long it took them to learn the game. EVE has a skyscraper-sized learning curve, and it's hard enough for noobs to get on top of all the myriad details of the game without having to deal with being harassed by players with far more experience than them. The real-time skill training system also means that it takes a long time for a noob to get up to speed: even once they understand the mechanics and rules, their ability to defend themselves is severely curtailed for the first couple of weeks of play.
Some of this I blame on the New Player Experience that CCP has set up. It's better than it used to be, but it's still not good enough to give new players a handle on some important aspects of the game (aggression mechanics, PVE fits versus PVP fits, and explaining how security status works). I've seen level 1 missions that send players into .4 systems, where the unsuspecting mission-runners get obliterated without ever knowing why.
Without a constant influx of new players, EVE will wither and die. A small, fixed population of high-level PLEX players isn't going to pay the bills for CCP. But in order to get new players into the game, the game has to be fun and exciting right away -- you can't say, "This game will get fun in a month or so when your skills are high enough. Until then, you're cannon fodder. Good luck!"
I generally push noobs I meet to go into EVE University. That's a great example of how to get noobs into a PVP mindset and still make the experience an enjoyable one.
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:03:00 -
[270] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: You think a suicide ganker 'gets mad' if he loses a suicide ganking ship? Really? Thats hilarious. You really don't know very much, do you?
not too bright are you? I guess its typical of someone who stoops to shooting noobs in a barrel for their petty thrills. Most suicide gankers have orcas with all their ships in it and usually a noctis. Maybe if you weren't so awful and afraid of pvp you would be choosing targets that actually care when they get blown up, are equipped with actual weapons, and can't recover their losses with afk work inside a day.
Hey, you are the one making brainless assertions like "suicide gankers get angry" when they lose..... a disposable ship that was intended to die anyway.
And the rest of it doesn't make sense either. I measure success in terms of ISK destroyed and # of carebears I cause to quit the game.
Behind Door 1: Roam low-sec, waste hours and maybe blow up a Rupture worth 10M that is guaranteed to be Platinum insured. Collect no tears, because the victim doesn't really care if they die - because in low-sec people expect to die and risk nothing.
Behind Door 2: Or, blow up 300M ISK uninsurable Hulks, inflict significant pain while earning ISK from salvage and extortion fees.
Gee, Monty, I think I'll go with Door 2.
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Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:19:00 -
[271] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Herr Wilkus wrote: You think a suicide ganker 'gets mad' if he loses a suicide ganking ship? Really? Thats hilarious. You really don't know very much, do you?
not too bright are you? I guess its typical of someone who stoops to shooting noobs in a barrel for their petty thrills. Most suicide gankers have orcas with all their ships in it and usually a noctis. Maybe if you weren't so awful and afraid of pvp you would be choosing targets that actually care when they get blown up, are equipped with actual weapons, and can't recover their losses with afk work inside a day. Hey, you are the one making brainless assertions like "suicide gankers get angry" when they lose..... a disposable ship that was intended to die anyway. And the rest of it doesn't make sense either. I measure success in terms of ISK destroyed and # of carebears I cause to quit the game. Behind Door 1: Roam low-sec, waste hours and maybe blow up a Rupture worth 10M that is guaranteed to be Platinum insured. Collect no tears, because the victim doesn't really care if they die - because in low-sec people expect to die and risk nothing. Behind Door 2: Or, blow up 300M ISK uninsurable Hulks, inflict significant pain while earning ISK from salvage and extortion fees. Gee, Monty, I think I'll go with Door 2.
It doesnt make sense to blow up an orca full of suicide ganker ships and a noctis? lol. OKAY. btw, hulks dont cost that much and are insurable. Judging by the nonsense comming from you, I can assume you are a troll, and a bad one at that. Seems like all you do is salvage other ppl wrecks, lol. Thanks for making me feel better about my brain, kid. Glad I'm not nearly as pathetic. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 18:52:00 -
[272] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:
It doesnt make sense to blow up an orca full of suicide ganker ships and a noctis? lol. OKAY. btw, hulks dont cost that much and are insurable. Judging by the nonsense comming from you, I can assume you are a troll, and a bad one at that. Seems like all you do is salvage other ppl wrecks, lol. Thanks for making me feel better about my brain, kid. Glad I'm not nearly as pathetic.
Of course I 'salvage other ppl wrecks, lol'. After I've killed them. Then I salvage my suicide wreck too.
Yes, many suicide gankers use Orcas. I've got 11 or 12 of them staged at different icebelts myself. And no, the Noctis is never carried around in an Orca providing ganker support - for reasons which should be immediately obvious. Whatever gave you that stupid idea? Please, please don't make me explain why.
Naturally, I was referring to Hulks prior to the Aug 8 patch, which wildly affected prices. Oh, OK, yeah T2 Exhumers are 'insurable'. Got it. How much of the purchase price is recovered again?
Aside from that, sure it 'makes sense' to blow up an Orca, but the trick is doing it. If you think a suicide ganker is going to somehow give you aggro rights against an Orca alt, you seriously misunderstand how they are actually used.
I'd like to see the KM where you actually killed an Orca full of suicide ships, since you are apparently the expert. .....Oh wait - to do that you'd have to actually HAVE ONE first....and come out from hiding behind your troll-alt.
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ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
111
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:09:00 -
[273] - Quote
I have had to edit numerous troll posts, non constructive posts and personal insults from this thread. As I have stated before, such things will not be tolerated on these forums. Understandably some issues will arise from time to time that cause things to get a little heated, however that does not excuse slinging personal insults at one another.
These forums are for the benefit of the community as a whole, so lets keep the discussion clean and on topic in future, that way we might achieve something. Thank you - ISD type40. ISD Type40 Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Tesal
41
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:14:00 -
[274] - Quote
This is a bad idea. What about mining ops where you have miners out of your corp or alliance. You need to empty jetcans just to get the ore, picking up with an Orca or a hauler. You get flagged that way, but no one shoots you because you are a friendly. After these changes anyone would be able to shoot your orca or hauler. This would end out of corp mining ops. |
Kalisis
Rampaging Malicious Scoundrels
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 19:43:00 -
[275] - Quote
Tesal wrote:This is a bad idea. What about mining ops where you have miners out of your corp or alliance. You need to empty jetcans just to get the ore, picking up with an Orca or a hauler. You get flagged that way, but no one shoots you because you are a friendly. After these changes anyone would be able to shoot your orca or hauler. This would end out of corp mining ops.
Can't wait for this, should be fun to see all the orcas that get pop'd due to this. Hopefully I'll catch a couple. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
507
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 23:50:00 -
[276] - Quote
Or maybe it will make CCP realize what a terrible idea this is. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 00:01:00 -
[277] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Melodee619 wrote:its really pathetic how CCP is bending over for the bots an afkers.. they are turning EVE into wow :(... Its becoming more an more wow an less EVE every patch now. Let alone this moronic **** about making anyone that kills flagged to everyone in HS, since it isn't the idiots fault for attacking the flipper... Obliviously its the can flippers fault that the idiot attacks him.....
typical wow mentality if no self responsibility. I had a fun one tonight, I jump in on this moron with 5 macks botting, I attack 1 an he suddenly jumps a tengu in like thats gonna stop me. with 3 DCU's on it...idiot then threatens me since it isn't his fault hes sitting there boiting with macks that are totally unfitted.
basically todays EVE players are professional victims an its never their fault. Are you really crying about aggressors having to take some risks? LOL. Clearly, you do not have the capacity to think rationally and are in no position to call others "idiots". It is really amazing how so many disgruntled losers feel the need to take their anger out on miners instead of targets that will fight back. Cowards and scrubs trying to take revenge on the world. Glad I don't feel the need to stoop so low. Normal people would prefer a challenge than to shoot fish in a barrel. I'm glad CCP is taking away your riskless, easymode "pvp". I'm really glad that miner ganking is possible, but to dedicate very much time into annoying random people on the internet, instead of those who actually deserve to get **** on and clearly would rage more, is indicative of a sore loser trying to share his pain. Surely these miner gankers and can flippers would rage at least 10x harder than any miner they kill. Personally I prefer to blow up can flippers and would be suicide gankers because I know they are already in emotional pain and actually deserve it. when you blow up a miner, they really probably don't think much of it, that they are overdue, and can recover losses quickly with minimal effort. When you blow up some angst-filled loser who dedicates all his time to being a douchebag to random people, you know they are probably jumping up and down, screaming at their monitor and pulling their hair out. You know who you are.
lol your calling me names, what is this, schoolyard?.... As for there is no emotional pain in eve, or any other pain. This is a computer game, if you cant separate that fact then you should get off the internet now, because it isnt good for you.
"BOTTERS" an "AFKERS" deserve to be killed. They ruin the economy. You obliviously bot or afk or some such, an have some sort of idea that you are above the rule set the rest of us follow. I take risks every single time I gank people. With a 3b isk clone, and 200 mil isk ship loss every time I kill a miner... I wear those costs cos to me they are irrelevant. None of them are real an they have zero bearing on my life. Try it sometime...'
Your little passive aggressive rant an snide remarks to sidestep the editor seeing your post is really juvenile mate....
Come back an see me when you are over this....thing whatever it is.
edit by the way, "dedicating" my playtime to killing bots an afkers is my playstyle, how arrogant to you have to be to call my playstyle "being an ********" compared to yours where you screw up the economy with 1 billion unit trit sales on market, an trashing the prices all time... |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
507
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 01:29:00 -
[278] - Quote
When did bots come into this? You can't can flip bots. If you can, that's a really poorly configured bot. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1273
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:10:00 -
[279] - Quote
Kalisis wrote:Tesal wrote:This is a bad idea. What about mining ops where you have miners out of your corp or alliance. You need to empty jetcans just to get the ore, picking up with an Orca or a hauler. You get flagged that way, but no one shoots you because you are a friendly. After these changes anyone would be able to shoot your orca or hauler. This would end out of corp mining ops. Can't wait for this, should be fun to see all the orcas that get pop'd due to this. Hopefully I'll catch a couple. That's a great counter. NPC corp orcas have that problem, in-corp ones have the wardec problem.
Of course you could just disband and reform your corp everything you get decced. Still though, sounds like a great plan. Good job ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
146
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:11:00 -
[280] - Quote
This change will provide new brilliant ways of getting daft people into becoming valid targets. As always
Having said that, I am not ignoring the valid game plays that this change would nerf. Just saying that all is not lost |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:14:00 -
[281] - Quote
Don't forget it's also a huge buff to complacency, stupidity, and ignorance. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:21:00 -
[282] - Quote
Kalisis wrote:Tesal wrote:This is a bad idea. What about mining ops where you have miners out of your corp or alliance. You need to empty jetcans just to get the ore, picking up with an Orca or a hauler. You get flagged that way, but no one shoots you because you are a friendly. After these changes anyone would be able to shoot your orca or hauler. This would end out of corp mining ops. Can't wait for this, should be fun to see all the orcas that get pop'd due to this. Hopefully I'll catch a couple.
you might be waiting a long time. Nobody would do what you say if you get flagged to everyone. I'm not surprised at all at the brainless comments made by miner gankers. They pick on the defenseless because they themselves are stupid and awful at any pvp that takes actual skill.
I cant thank CCP enough for finally making this game attractive to real pvpers, instead of being the mindless joke it has been. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1273
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:27:00 -
[283] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Kalisis wrote:Tesal wrote:This is a bad idea. What about mining ops where you have miners out of your corp or alliance. You need to empty jetcans just to get the ore, picking up with an Orca or a hauler. You get flagged that way, but no one shoots you because you are a friendly. After these changes anyone would be able to shoot your orca or hauler. This would end out of corp mining ops. Can't wait for this, should be fun to see all the orcas that get pop'd due to this. Hopefully I'll catch a couple. you might be waiting a long time. Nobody would do what you say if you get flagged to everyone. Not surprised at all at the brainless comments made by miner gankers. They pick on the defenseless because they themselves are stupid and awful at any pvp that takes actual skill. I cant thank CCP enough for finally making this game attractive to real pvpers, instead of being the mindless joke it has been. ^___^
Highsec PvP will never be better after CCP's gone and worked on it :)
(Because maybe it gets worse, har har)
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 02:29:00 -
[284] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Kalisis wrote:Tesal wrote:This is a bad idea. What about mining ops where you have miners out of your corp or alliance. You need to empty jetcans just to get the ore, picking up with an Orca or a hauler. You get flagged that way, but no one shoots you because you are a friendly. After these changes anyone would be able to shoot your orca or hauler. This would end out of corp mining ops. Can't wait for this, should be fun to see all the orcas that get pop'd due to this. Hopefully I'll catch a couple. you might be waiting a long time. Nobody would do what you say if you get flagged to everyone. Not surprised at all at the brainless comments made by miner gankers. They pick on the defenseless because they themselves are stupid and awful at any pvp that takes actual skill. I cant thank CCP enough for finally making this game attractive to real pvpers, instead of being the mindless joke it has been. ^___^ Highsec PvP will never be better after CCP's gone and worked on it :) (Because maybe it gets worse, har har)
its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 03:09:00 -
[285] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote: its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system.
Still waiting on that gank support-Orca killmail, since you like killing them so much.
Or at least an explanation on how you think you plan to kill a gank-support Orca (complete with a Noctis....!!!)
You are pretty long on insults and pretty short on....other things, buster.
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Malsavias Toralen
Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 05:21:00 -
[286] - Quote
Plain and simple Concord is declaring that can flipping is a now more punishable offence. Sucks but it makes sense in game concord controls the rules =P |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 06:53:00 -
[287] - Quote
Malsavias Toralen wrote:Plain and simple Concord is declaring that can flipping is a now more punishable offence. Sucks but it makes sense in game concord controls the rules =P You must be confused. CONCORD is a fictional entity. EVE's 4th of July Fireworks |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1692
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 07:16:00 -
[288] - Quote
I get the feeling that CCP is trying to make high sec PVP more available for everybody with this proposed change.
Presently, you can make the choice to flip cans, and get that sort of PVP that might be 1v1 or 1v corp. But all of the choice is wtih the can flipper at the moment.
They actually have to find a jet can, that someone already made the choice to jettison, to try for that PVP, and the owner of the can can decide on what to do about it based on any available combat assets.
But these days, a lot of people don't have time to go flipping cans all day to get that "one noob who takes the bait" or even better, some turn of events that leads to a fleet battle. While some mining corps can be vast, coordination is not as common nor as easy as some people think. These take a lot of time.
The implication of crimewatch is that you become a part of the equation without having to flip a can, nor be the owner of the can.
This adds a third party to the mix. Whereas we have a can flipper, someone who seeks PVP (or whatever), and the flipee, we now have a vigilante. The participation rate of this form of PVP has now increased 50 percent. You need not be an agressor nor a miner, but you can be a vigilante instead.
And this alone becomes another opportunity for PVP. Not looking for cans to flip, not waiting for someone to flip your can, but instead bouncing around looking for someone who is "flagged" because of this.
Last I recall, there was some cost to being a vigilante, being flagged yourself. I remember that was originally mentioned, but not aware of the latest notes. if this is the case, then there is a lot of potential.
Ultimately, the goal might be such that you undock and get PVP much sooner. It would be nice to do so, without roaming, scouting, having to join a 0.0 corp, or gate camp/cat and mouse in low.
Would this potentially turn high sec into some kind of PVP arena? I don't know, but I would hope so because I think a good time will be had by all.
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Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
113
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 07:33:00 -
[289] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf Burger wrote:Kalisis wrote:Tesal wrote:This is a bad idea. What about mining ops where you have miners out of your corp or alliance. You need to empty jetcans just to get the ore, picking up with an Orca or a hauler. You get flagged that way, but no one shoots you because you are a friendly. After these changes anyone would be able to shoot your orca or hauler. This would end out of corp mining ops. Can't wait for this, should be fun to see all the orcas that get pop'd due to this. Hopefully I'll catch a couple. you might be waiting a long time. Nobody would do what you say if you get flagged to everyone. Not surprised at all at the brainless comments made by miner gankers. They pick on the defenseless because they themselves are stupid and awful at any pvp that takes actual skill. I cant thank CCP enough for finally making this game attractive to real pvpers, instead of being the mindless joke it has been. ^___^ Highsec PvP will never be better after CCP's gone and worked on it :) (Because maybe it gets worse, har har) its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system.
What system are you in, I would like to take a crack at that. |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 08:16:00 -
[290] - Quote
As has been said all CCP is doing now is catering hand over firs tto the pve crowd. They want people to start talking about eve being "nice" an friendly an no risk... As the guy from Razor stated "complacency, stupidity will be even more widespread now. No matter how many times you tell them how to avoid trouble, it all comes down to them not wanting to take any responsibility. They have harrased CCP into playing for them.
Without over dramatizing things to much, it's a sad day for EVE to see it going down this path....
"its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system."
LOL there is no such thing as cowards in a computer game. I get you want to sound like your hard etc etc, but it comes off as...well, anyway. Fact is, CCP seem to have declared that our playstyle is now no longer valid. Mission runners will be next to get protection.
Can flipping (not something I bother with) ganking (my main gameplay style)
Seem to be on the outs. |
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Suvari Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 09:36:00 -
[291] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:As has been said all CCP is doing now is catering hand over firs tto the pve crowd. They want people to start talking about eve being "nice" an friendly an no risk... As the guy from Razor stated "complacency, stupidity will be even more widespread now. No matter how many times you tell them how to avoid trouble, it all comes down to them not wanting to take any responsibility. They have harrased CCP into playing for them.
Without over dramatizing things to much, it's a sad day for EVE to see it going down this path....
"its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system."
LOL there is no such thing as cowards in a computer game. I get you want to sound like your hard etc etc, but it comes off as...well, anyway. Fact is, CCP seem to have declared that our playstyle is now no longer valid. Mission runners will be next to get protection.
Can flipping (not something I bother with) ganking (my main gameplay style)
Seem to be on the outs.
why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 09:40:00 -
[292] - Quote
Suvari Khashour wrote:why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh.
Why are you using a posting alt?
Amat victoria curam. |
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
113
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 09:49:00 -
[293] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Suvari Khashour wrote:why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh. Why are you using a posting alt?
Indeed.
PvP is the result of things, most smart Eve players are seeking opertunities usually based on earning ISK, PvP is something that is often the result of our efforts. I personally never seek out PvP in its own right, but it just happens to find me on a regular basis because of other persuits.
Can flipping is something that I have used on occassion when someone is infringing on my oppertunities. For example if Im running mining ops and a bunch of strip miners are rolling on my turf, can flipping and harrasing them to get them to leave is a very effective way to ... solve the problem.
I do agree however that if your in a fleet with someone and you get can flipped, you should be flagged to everyone in that fleet. To me, a fleet is a temporary alliance that should be treated as "we are temporarily in the same corp" so that if I get war deced and fleet up with people, we are now all at war. This to me is in the spirit of the game and a missing component of the flagging mechanic. |
Suvari Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 09:54:00 -
[294] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Suvari Khashour wrote:why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh. Why are you using a posting alt?
Because im a miner of course... |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
132
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 10:27:00 -
[295] - Quote
Suvari Khashour wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Suvari Khashour wrote:why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh. Why are you using a posting alt? Because im a miner of course...
So you talk about others lacking balls but you use an alt to post. I guess that invalidates pretty much anything you post then, just so we're clear on that. Amat victoria curam. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 11:45:00 -
[296] - Quote
Kryss Darkdust wrote:I do agree however that if your in a fleet with someone and you get can flipped, you should be flagged to everyone in that fleet. To me, a fleet is a temporary alliance that should be treated as "we are temporarily in the same corp" so that if I get war deced and fleet up with people, we are now all at war. This to me is in the spirit of the game and a missing component of the flagging mechanic.
The problem with that is that fleets are fluid. People can join, leave, DC and come back etc etc and that would create a nightmare for the flagging system and it would be SUCH a mess it just won't work. There really is no problem in keeping it corp only, if people choose to not be in the same corp then they choose to have less options, it really is that simple. I would agree to an alliance wide flagging, simply because "it makes sense".
Amat victoria curam. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:18:00 -
[297] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Kryss Darkdust wrote:I do agree however that if your in a fleet with someone and you get can flipped, you should be flagged to everyone in that fleet. To me, a fleet is a temporary alliance that should be treated as "we are temporarily in the same corp" so that if I get war deced and fleet up with people, we are now all at war. This to me is in the spirit of the game and a missing component of the flagging mechanic. The problem with that is that fleets are fluid. People can join, leave, DC and come back etc etc and that would create a nightmare for the flagging system and it would be SUCH a mess it just won't work. There really is no problem in keeping it corp only, if people choose to not be in the same corp then they choose to have less options, it really is that simple. I would agree to an alliance wide flagging, simply because "it makes sense".
a nightmare for the flagging system? lol. Not really.
Also, posting on an alt doesn't invalidate anything, its actually a smart thing to do if you are a miner. You never know when some disgruntled butthurt baby might take personal offense to hearing the unwanted truth and dedicate his existence to trying to annoy you in EVE.
Nice try, you fail. |
Nerf Burger
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:21:00 -
[298] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:As has been said all CCP is doing now is catering hand over firs tto the pve crowd. They want people to start talking about eve being "nice" an friendly an no risk... As the guy from Razor stated "complacency, stupidity will be even more widespread now. No matter how many times you tell them how to avoid trouble, it all comes down to them not wanting to take any responsibility. They have harrased CCP into playing for them.
Without over dramatizing things to much, it's a sad day for EVE to see it going down this path....
"its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system."
LOL there is no such thing as cowards in a computer game. I get you want to sound like your hard etc etc, but it comes off as...well, anyway. Fact is, CCP seem to have declared that our playstyle is now no longer valid. Mission runners will be next to get protection.
Can flipping (not something I bother with) ganking (my main gameplay style)
Seem to be on the outs.
its purely about adding risk to can flipping, no longer can you have your private grief war against noobs with essentially zero risk. Cry more and l2p. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 12:56:00 -
[299] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Malsavias Toralen wrote:Plain and simple Concord is declaring that can flipping is a now more punishable offence. Sucks but it makes sense in game concord controls the rules =P You must be confused. CONCORD is a fictional entity.
CCP establishes the rules of EVE, and CONCORD carries them out in-game.
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Auar
Con and Sons
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:06:00 -
[300] - Quote
Suvari Khashour wrote:Melodee619 wrote:As has been said all CCP is doing now is catering hand over firs tto the pve crowd. They want people to start talking about eve being "nice" an friendly an no risk... As the guy from Razor stated "complacency, stupidity will be even more widespread now. No matter how many times you tell them how to avoid trouble, it all comes down to them not wanting to take any responsibility. They have harrased CCP into playing for them.
Without over dramatizing things to much, it's a sad day for EVE to see it going down this path....
"its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system."
LOL there is no such thing as cowards in a computer game. I get you want to sound like your hard etc etc, but it comes off as...well, anyway. Fact is, CCP seem to have declared that our playstyle is now no longer valid. Mission runners will be next to get protection.
Can flipping (not something I bother with) ganking (my main gameplay style)
Seem to be on the outs. why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh.
I love how the assumption in this thread is that if I engage another combat ship because of a can flip then it is not pvp...?
This thread inspired me so I went and flipped a couple cans last night. The result was a Drake dropping in on my Hawk. I couldn't win the fight after engaging but did manage to make an escape to a safe spot. After a couple minutes to allow shield regen I headed back into the belts where a fairly decent size corp presence (and at least one Drake) had kill rights on me. Encountered the Drake pilot again bit this time he was in a Dramiel.
The Dramiel and I had a great one on one fight and I wasn't sure of the outcome until he melted. Before the fight ended a Caldari Navy Hookbill landed on grid. It targeted me, so while the Dram was burning i targeted it, sure enough it goes blinky red and I am thinking I am screwed because i only have 15% shield left. Whatever though, was way too fun a fight to bail out on and you never know if you're up against a fail fit or not.
The Hookbill and I exchange probably three volleys and then Concord showed up to save my ass. Hookbill pilot wasn't part of the corp I offended.
Had a great night of 'PVP' and all the result of flipping a can. In my experience half the time someone takes the bait it is in a capable combat vessel. When you consider this is one of the few ways to get one on one, or small fleet vs. one combat, I would say they are ruining a very viable mechanic for PVP!
Auar
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malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:07:00 -
[301] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:Suvari Khashour wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Suvari Khashour wrote:why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh. Why are you using a posting alt? Because im a miner of course... So you talk about others lacking balls but you use an alt to post. I guess that invalidates pretty much anything you post then, just so we're clear on that.
Posting on an Alt should never invalidate the posters "Opinions". I think you are wrong. You're posting on your main? does that then invalidate all Mains opininons? There are many reasons people post on alts. some to be total douches. I choose to post on this character. What I say I believe in, and am definately right in MY opinion. All that matters is not the poster, but what the posters writes. If they mouth off. People will judge them for what they are. Reguardless who said it.
Now people could argue about you. You are not posting on your "ganker/canflipper" So truely you have never ganked or canflipped in your history. You know nothing about the mechanic. You have nothing to back your opinions up. Or do you have some truths told here today, that comfirm somethings, and debunk others.
By your reasoning everything you post in this thread is now invalidated.
good day to you sir
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Auar
Con and Sons
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:08:00 -
[302] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:I get the feeling that CCP is trying to make high sec PVP more available for everybody with this proposed change.
Presently, you can make the choice to flip cans, and get that sort of PVP that might be 1v1 or 1v corp. But all of the choice is wtih the can flipper at the moment.
They actually have to find a jet can, that someone already made the choice to jettison, to try for that PVP, and the owner of the can can decide on what to do about it based on any available combat assets.
But these days, a lot of people don't have time to go flipping cans all day to get that "one noob who takes the bait" or even better, some turn of events that leads to a fleet battle. While some mining corps can be vast, coordination is not as common nor as easy as some people think. These take a lot of time.
The implication of crimewatch is that you become a part of the equation without having to flip a can, nor be the owner of the can.
This adds a third party to the mix. Whereas we have a can flipper, someone who seeks PVP (or whatever), and the flipee, we now have a vigilante. The participation rate of this form of PVP has now increased 50 percent. You need not be an agressor nor a miner, but you can be a vigilante instead.
And this alone becomes another opportunity for PVP. Not looking for cans to flip, not waiting for someone to flip your can, but instead bouncing around looking for someone who is "flagged" because of this.
Last I recall, there was some cost to being a vigilante, being flagged yourself. I remember that was originally mentioned, but not aware of the latest notes. if this is the case, then there is a lot of potential.
Ultimately, the goal might be such that you undock and get PVP much sooner. It would be nice to do so, without roaming, scouting, having to join a 0.0 corp, or gate camp/cat and mouse in low.
Would this potentially turn high sec into some kind of PVP arena? I don't know, but I would hope so because I think a good time will be had by all.
Great perspective on the change. Hopefully it work out close to how you envision it. +1
Auar
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Jerick Ludhowe
Toxic Waste Industries
142
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:26:00 -
[303] - Quote
Pretty sure changing logi aggression mechanics is more important than this foolish can flipping nerf. How ccp gets so out of touch with their player base is beyond me. |
Rats
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:28:00 -
[304] - Quote
ISD TYPE40 wrote:I have had to edit numerous troll posts, non constructive posts and personal insults from this thread. As I have stated before, such things will not be tolerated on these forums. Understandably some issues will arise from time to time that cause things to get a little heated, however that does not excuse slinging personal insults at one another.
These forums are for the benefit of the community as a whole, so lets keep the discussion clean and on topic in future, that way we might achieve something. Thank you - ISD type40.
Lol did you just say achieve something in a GD forum thread lols
Tal
-áI Fought the Law, and the Law Won... -áTalon Silverhawk-á |
Melodee619
The Scope Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 13:44:00 -
[305] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote:Melodee619 wrote:As has been said all CCP is doing now is catering hand over firs tto the pve crowd. They want people to start talking about eve being "nice" an friendly an no risk... As the guy from Razor stated "complacency, stupidity will be even more widespread now. No matter how many times you tell them how to avoid trouble, it all comes down to them not wanting to take any responsibility. They have harrased CCP into playing for them.
Without over dramatizing things to much, it's a sad day for EVE to see it going down this path....
"its just unfortunate that most can flippers are cowards and probably wont be flipping many cans after this change. Still, I look foward to extracting many tears from the losers of EVE who are dumb enough to flip a can when I'm in system."
LOL there is no such thing as cowards in a computer game. I get you want to sound like your hard etc etc, but it comes off as...well, anyway. Fact is, CCP seem to have declared that our playstyle is now no longer valid. Mission runners will be next to get protection.
Can flipping (not something I bother with) ganking (my main gameplay style)
Seem to be on the outs. its purely about adding risk to can flipping, no longer can you have your private grief war against noobs with essentially zero risk. Cry more and l2p.
cry more an l2p?
I assume your speaking 14 year old because I dont speak gibberish. Please dont waste my time with any more silly schoolyard chest beating... ok?
good lad.
As for the issue at hand, none steals from day ones etc, hell can flipping period is silly just because it gains you nothing. Miners deserve to be killed simply because they have no interest in playing themselves. They only want to bot or afk.... so its their fault if they die, none els...
But newbes... it's like kicking a kitten. utterly pointless.Having a global flag so everyone in eve can kill you is the single most moronic thing I have seen in last 4 years, an that includes Concord boost (jihad over reaction) Goldships/Ammo (mistake my arse) Mining ships immunity (lol) Now this stupidity...... It never ends, this pandering to pve'ers when EVE made it's name on self responsibility an tough game play. People like myself are not complaining because theres no more hulks left, we are complaining because they are turning EVE into the one thing the net is full off.. wow clones. (granted EVE has a long way to go to be THAT bad), but its getting there. Every time CCP do these things, they over react in the worst possible way. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 14:36:00 -
[306] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:
cry more an l2p?
I assume your speaking 14 year old because I dont speak gibberish. Please dont waste my time with any more silly schoolyard chest beating... ok?
good lad.
As for the issue at hand, none steals from day ones etc, hell can flipping period is silly just because it gains you nothing. Miners deserve to be killed simply because they have no interest in playing themselves. They only want to bot or afk.... so its their fault if they die, none els...
But newbes... it's like kicking a kitten. utterly pointless.Having a global flag so everyone in eve can kill you is the single most moronic thing I have seen in last 4 years, an that includes Concord boost (jihad over reaction) Goldships/Ammo (mistake my arse) Mining ships immunity (lol) Now this stupidity...... It never ends, this pandering to pve'ers when EVE made it's name on self responsibility an tough game play. People like myself are not complaining because theres no more hulks left, we are complaining because they are turning EVE into the one thing the net is full off.. wow clones. (granted EVE has a long way to go to be THAT bad), but its getting there. Every time CCP do these things, they over react in the worst possible way.
I do not like to see EVE become easy. These currant changes, does not make it any easier. Miners have not all of a sudden got 1 million m3 a minute yield. They are safer maybe, But can still be ganked. There will still be those that fly an untanked hulk. Jetting into a can. You have still got your targets. Just a bigger risk/cost to the criminal. Which I personally think is a good call. |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
134
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:13:00 -
[307] - Quote
malcovas Henderson wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Suvari Khashour wrote:Vilnius Zar wrote:Suvari Khashour wrote:why not try PvP instead, it takes some skill i know, but.. give it a whirl you might even enjoy it. but i doubt you have the balls tbh. Why are you using a posting alt? Because im a miner of course... So you talk about others lacking balls but you use an alt to post. I guess that invalidates pretty much anything you post then, just so we're clear on that. Posting on an Alt should never invalidate the posters "Opinions". I think you are wrong. You're posting on your main? does that then invalidate all Mains opininons? There are many reasons people post on alts. some to be total douches. I choose to post on this character. What I say I believe in, and am definately right in MY opinion. All that matters is not the poster, but what the posters writes. If they mouth off. People will judge them for what they are. Reguardless who said it. Now people could argue about you. You are not posting on your "ganker/canflipper" So truely you have never ganked or canflipped in your history. You know nothing about the mechanic. You have nothing to back your opinions up. Or do you have some truths told here today, that comfirm somethings, and debunk others. By your reasoning everything you post in this thread is now invalidated. good day to you sir
You didn't actually read/understand what Suvari wrote, did you. Amat victoria curam. |
malcovas Henderson
Smoking Minerals Syndicate Cannabis Legionis
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:19:00 -
[308] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Posting on an Alt should never invalidate the posters "Opinions". I think you are wrong. You're posting on your main? does that then invalidate all Mains opininons? There are many reasons people post on alts. some to be total douches. I choose to post on this character. What I say I believe in, and am definately right in MY opinion. All that matters is not the poster, but what the posters writes. If they mouth off. People will judge them for what they are. Reguardless who said it.
Now people could argue about you. You are not posting on your "ganker/canflipper" So truely you have never ganked or canflipped in your history. You know nothing about the mechanic. You have nothing to back your opinions up. Or do you have some truths told here today, that comfirm somethings, and debunk others.
By your reasoning everything you post in this thread is now invalidated.
good day to you sir
You didn't actually read/understand what Suvari wrote, did you.[/quote]
Post on your main. So we can have a proper discussion. Untill then, everything you say is not valid. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1273
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:19:00 -
[309] - Quote
Melodee619 wrote:Now this stupidity...... It never ends, this pandering to pve'ers when EVE made it's name on self responsibility an tough game play. People like myself are not complaining because theres no more hulks left, we are complaining because they are turning EVE into the one thing the net is full off.. wow clones. (granted EVE has a long way to go to be THAT bad), but its getting there. Every time CCP do these things, they over react in the worst possible way. *shrug*
Highsec, a wonderful place to pvp. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.17 16:46:00 -
[310] - Quote
Nerf Burger wrote: Also, posting on an alt doesn't invalidate anything, its actually a smart thing to do if you are a miner. You never know when some disgruntled butthurt baby might take personal offense to hearing the unwanted truth and dedicate his existence to trying to annoy you in EVE.
Nice try, you fail.
No, it just makes you a coward. And 'calling out' other players as cowards while engaged in a spineless act of cowardice yourself is
I wouldn't expect a silly teenager to understand, but it really makes you look stupid.
At least you learned to stop talking about the mechanics of suicide ganking - because it was quite apparent, like most carebears, you don't comprehend simple game mechanics....or even know the first thing about 'PVP'.
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 03:15:00 -
[311] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:I'm just curious as to why you feel it's your duty to enlighten noobs as to the "proper" way to play the game. They're paying the same subscription fees you are, and have the same expectation of having an enjoyable experience that you do.
EVE isn't a job. It's not the frigging Army. It's a game, and one that too many people take way too seriously.
That whole "cold, hard universe" thing gets trotted out by every ganking douchebag in EVE, and I'm sick of it. If you're so seriously into the cold, hard aspects of EVE, if you're such a legendary bad-ass, why aren't you mixing it up out in losec or null? Why are you trolling noobs in 1.0 systems for their pathetic little can of Veld?
Griefing noobs should be an immediate death-sentence in high. The game mechanics didn't protect noobs enough until now, but I'm glad to see that CCP is taking the problem seriously.
1. I'm curious which part of my post made you think I feel that I have a duty to educate 'noobs'? Anyway I don't really refer to them as 'noobs'. Newbies, sure.
Also, I have no inclination to make anyone play the way I do.
2. I have fun logging on to forums and reading all the tears, perceived tears, wannabe tears and post like yours that seem to take everything personally (are you sure you don't take it seriously?)
3. FYI, please refer to the previous pages, on who brought up 'cold harsh universe' in this thread. :)
4. Also, look at your third line, you just proved a point of mine, about how people who don't play like you are automatically "ganking douchebags" and "legendary bad-ass" etc.
Also FYI, I don't kill new players in highsec as you seem to think everyone who participates in non-consensual combat does. Blanket statements FTW right? (I have been -10 for the 5 our of the 6 years or so I've been playing, plus I haven't actually logged in apart from to change skills in the last 2)
5. "Griefing" new players is a bannable offense and you should report players found doing so. However, I'm off the opinion that flagging yourself in highsec is far from a bannable/'instant death sentence' offense. If you would like to know more, please find out the difference between "flagging" and "aggression". Going by your post, you'd think people who actually commit aggressions should be banned?
6. Further to the above, can you elaborate more on how the game mechanics doesn't protect new players enough? They were given ample warning as to what would happen if they took from a can that wasn't theirs. Asking someone to read a pop up doesn't really constitute forcing them to play my way does it? |
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
647
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 07:31:00 -
[312] - Quote
so they are making so anyone who steals a can will be attackible by anyone in highsec for the 15 minutes or something? where is the issue you want to can flip in a mission or something chances are no one will see you. but if you do it in front of a station you will probably be seen and attacked. |
Randomize All
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 09:43:00 -
[313] - Quote
Why is it taking so long for so many people to recognise the unstoppable march towards /pvpoff ? |
Jerick Ludhowe
Toxic Waste Industries
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 13:10:00 -
[314] - Quote
Randomize All wrote:Why is it taking so long for so many people to recognise the unstoppable march towards /pvpoff ?
It's generally what happens when greyscale starts proposing changes... Got to say he's undoubtedly the worst idea breeder at ccp
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Scott PiIgrim
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 13:13:00 -
[315] - Quote
I for one, welcome the new crimesystem with open arms. I've always hated not beeing able to shoot the can flippers when they go red to some poor inbreed miner. I'm confident CCP will figure out a system that will include the duel option for 1 v 1. |
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