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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
172
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Posted - 2012.08.21 16:53:00 -
[271] - Quote
I kind of hope the Prophecy and Maller do become missile boats. We don't have any T1 armour tanking missile sluggers and a RoF missile bonused Prohecy with 6 launchers vs a HAM Drake would be very interesting. |
Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.21 16:57:00 -
[272] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Maliatida wrote:Frigates keeping transversal at speed at 25km+ away are not viable targets for virtually anything that you can solo in.. stopped reading at this point... there are boat loads of ships that can do this... curse. ANY DRONE boat. and so on... just because you have a fav solo frig you might not beable to take out a logi frig with does not mean that you cant... you CHOOSE not too... which IMO is not mine or CCP problem.
You heard it here, all you really need to do is that out your solo Curse and drone boats and hope you don't have to go to any small deadspace plexes, or run into anything that isn't a frigate gang with logistics.
Edit: Sorry, I'll be less pithy. Curses are not very good solo ships, and even in contexts where they can be used effectively they are incredibly expensive relative to t1 frigates. Drone boats suffer from low applied DPS to begin with and any frigate pilot who has ever fought a drone boat knows how easy it is to kill the drones. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1141
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:02:00 -
[273] - Quote
Hustomte wrote: 2) The stealth bomber is going to need to be redesigned since it can't be based off a logi frig hull.
Why not? |
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2767
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:06:00 -
[274] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: You heard it here, all you really need to do is get out your solo Curse and drone boats or anything with large neuts, or ECM, or any semblance of speed to prevent a perfect transversal, or anything with light missiles and target painters, or anything with long webs, or any sensor damp platform, or......
Fixed that for you. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1952
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:23:00 -
[275] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: -Please indicate to me a situation in which a logistics frigate would be in hostile heavy neut range. -Cap booster is irrelevant as anyone who is piloting these will never be in neut range. -You need ECM on the field to have to worry about ECCM. ECM is not something present very often in small gang or solo situations (especially nano gangs) as you need all available DPS to hit your target and move or tackle and move.
They don't have the 70km optimal range of T2 logistics. According to the OP, they've got a T2 RR range of 28km - which means that they'll likely be in range of someone fielding heavy neuts if there are heavy neuts on the field. Assuming that they sit at exactly 28.2km the entire fight is simply foolish. Battlefields are very fluid and it will be very easy to partition the battlefield with neutralizers and other ewar. And once they smacked by a stray neut - even once - their ability to rep is harmed for a very long time (as far as frig fights go).
Furthermore, it's not like heavy neuts are the only danger here. There's an almost arbitrary number of ways to CC a logi frig out of the fight. ECM ships (and ewar ships in general) is and and always will be a threat to logistics ships. If you think it's reasonable for gangs to be bringing logi frigs, I contend it's reasonable for them to bring the newly boosted Griffin or Maulus.
But in the end, even if neutralization wasn't a factor at all, 30km is just really close for a fat slow frigate to be. There are innumerable ways for even frigates (never mind cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships) to reach out and vaporize people at 30km. I mean, without relying on everyone's newfound drone bays.
Quote: -They are heavy for a frigate and agility will mean little at the range you will be operating at and behind heavy tackle. -Sig and speed tank called, they say a frigate with a signature radius of 30 is difficult to kill when they are at speed at range. -Their signature radius is in line with every other frigate (read: small)
Well, so the thing about it is that they're heavy for their ship class and thus will be very slow on top of their already terrible agility. On top of that, they don't really have the slots to fit nanos/overdrives to do anything about it. Combine this fact with the fact that they basically don't have any transversal (if AB fit) or have a battlecruiser sized sig radius (if MWD fit) and they're just a paper target sitting at range.
Seriously man, I've got battlecruisers faster and more agile than these things.
Quote: If you consider a pilot that is two weeks old transferring 100 raw hp a second to a heavy tackle ship with a resistance bonus miniscule, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Even assuming a terrible fit or a t1 ship with 66% omniresist, that is an effective tank of 300 paper DPS (assuming all dps is applied). With no diminishing returns on transfers, my three newbie logi set up will tank 900 paper DPS, and if I am not flying like an idiot I can tank much more (as not all DPS will be applied).
Your response will naturally be "lol just alpha through it!", which is kinda my point.
So this doesn't even make any sense: - A two week old isn't going to have the fitting or cap skills to do for any length of time. - A 900 DPS tank is kinda meaningless when talking about frigates. They don't have the HP buffer for that to matter. I guarantee 4 DPS frigates can volley through that RR without a problem. Assuming they don't just all break off and snap up the logi kills first. What, you only want to talk about a 4v1?
Quote: I also don't think you grasp the concept of tanking through anything other than EFT numbers (hint: paper DPS is higher than applied dps in 90% of situations)
You know, I've put out FIVE PVP videos featuring this exact concept and I've got the content (but not disk space) to make 2-3 more. But I'm sure you know more about this than me. According to Battleclinic, we live in the same area. Why don't you drop by Amamake and school me in it? :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
42
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:25:00 -
[276] - Quote
I would prefer the both answer for Amarr in terms of drones and missiles.
I would love to see dedicated rocket, HAM and Torpedo ships.
Keep drones with the large drone bays on the EWAR ships, where neuts take up our highslots anyway.
Have other Amarr ships such as the Armageddon have or keep a balanced flight of one set of drones.
So the Crucifier would be the Frigate Drone boat. The Arbitrator the Cruiser, and add a new 4th battleship. (The Gallente and Minmatar can get an EWAR BS too.) No need for a Destroyer or BC, EWAR/Drone ship obviously.
The new destroyer would be rockets and the Prophecy would be HAMs unless you want are planning on adding a 4th BC.
For the Amarr missiles ships you would have, the Tormentor (or Inquisitor if you flip the hulls, name wise makes sense to me), the new Dessy would be rockets, the Maller, the Prophecy be HAMs, and you just need more BS hulls to make this work. Then when you get to it, adding a 2nd Marauder with Torps would be AWESOME.
In general I would love for you to add more hulls, I know art is a bottleneck. But at each level frig, crusier, BS. I would love to see, short range, long range, alt weapon, EWAR, and logistics. With as much racial flavor as you can throw in.
A dedicated subscriber can dream can't he?(er I mean she)
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Cahvus
Confederated Armed Traders High Rollers
23
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:27:00 -
[277] - Quote
I don't meant to beat a dead horse Fozzie but I seriously think you need to reconsider range. One of the most important tanking staples for frigates is their speed. If you are flying on a frigate roam there is no way you would fly in a train formation (everyone anchor on logi/fc). Because of their limited range (28km), you are putting the pilots of these new ships into a very difficult position that their cruiser flying counterparts do not have to face- Do you: A. Have everyone anchor within ~25 km of the logi frigates, making your fleet a perfect target for stealth bombers and simultaneously allowing your enemy to simple negate your transversal and fly parallel to your FrigTrain. Somewhat limits speed tanking because not all ships go the same speed, and everyone is anchored within range of the logi. B. Have everyone do their normal speed tank. But wait, this is a fight, not everyone is going to be at the same optimals/ranges! This means the logi either has to turn on its afterburner (which sucks out it's cap which would otherwise be used for running reps) or their MWD (sucking even more cap plus giving them sig bloom, painting a huge bullseye on an already enticing target C. Do your normal thing and hope everyone stays within 28km of you, otherwise tough luck for them
It's rather early for me so if anything doesn't make sense/isn't a coherent thought please show me and I will try and clarify. Hopefully the tone does not come off as rude or confrontation as that is not my intention at all. I am super excited for these new ships, I just want them to be viable and useful so that we can start educating and utilizing newer players, and welcome them into an aspect of PVP that is my personal favorite! |
Themick Mccoy
33
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:28:00 -
[278] - Quote
How good would these really be though?
With these frigates, would they actually matter in a fight? Look at how the t1 logi cruisers(please look at these!) handle, they are basically a joke. I see the t1 frigates ending up going the same route unless cap usage is seriously curtailed. Another point to go along with this is that these are suppose to be a gateway into logi for newer players, or at least one would presume so. The problem there is that a new player will have a low in game skill set, and probably therefore be so inefficient at logi that they wouldn't be repping for much/running out of cap very quickly.(basically, for a newbie to actually do well in these ships, a further tweeking of the cap usage bonus may be needed)
Another thing to look at is the raw output of the rep modules themselves. These mods, even with the ship bonus, seem to be fairly weak, to the point a small number of the higher dps frigates can quickly over take the rep amount. This does however not fully take into account resists, but on frigates in general, resists wont be spectacular.
In my opinion it has a good chance of making new players shy away from logi at the onset if they get destroyed in these things, unless you guys do a little more tweeking with a low sp pilot in mind. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |
Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:30:00 -
[279] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Maliatida wrote: You heard it here, all you really need to do is get out your solo Curse and drone boats or anything with large neuts, or ECM, or any semblance of speed to prevent a perfect transversal, or anything with light missiles and target painters, or anything with long webs, or any sensor damp platform, or......
Fixed that for you.
The large neuts thing has been thrown out repeatedly, but there is really not a single situation in which a logistics ship with an effective range equal to that of a heavy neut would ever be in heavy neut range.
If your logistics is moving in with your tackle or heavy dps brawl down a battleship, you probably need a new pilot.
Scram + Web ensures nothing that the logistics pilot doesn't want near him will ever get near him. ECM, as I've said before, is not a staple of small gang or solo work. Light missiles do absolutely absymmal damage.
Sensor damp platform reduces the range at which they can repair, but again in my example you'd need to fit at least two and still have enough tank and DPS to brawl down the primary ship (can't think of a ship that would allow this).
You are listing roles of force multipliers that require multiple ships, multiple pilots, and specific ship types (some T2 cruiser hulls? Really?) to fight against what literally every single person who plays EVE could put together in two weeks of training.
You are also discounting that the majority of the ships you are listing cannot go into a majority of deadspace plexes. |
Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:44:00 -
[280] - Quote
I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Edit: And before the "oh, so it's 4v1 then", it is one operator with multiple accounts and multiple ships. The simplicity and cost of these frigates makes it so simple to set up a multibox camp it's crazy. It's why I prefaced my original complaint with the pros/cons of multi-box PVP as it stands today. Combine that with how quickly you can set these up, and you have the genocide of mining barges you saw immediately after the destroyer buff all over again. Small barrier to entry = more people doing it. More people doing it = worse for solo or small gang work.
The only offsetting thing I can imagine is making them significantly more expensive than they currently are or have a higher threshold to get into (or both). Otherwise I will never leave station without at least three RR frigate alts, just like I never leave station without off grid boosting. |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:50:00 -
[281] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot.
/shrug
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kithian Hastos
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:52:00 -
[282] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;) Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
I was going to because you took away my drone frigate, but now I have a because it's going to be the Tristan. |
Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:57:00 -
[283] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote: I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot. /shrug -Liang
See my edit. There is already an issue with virtually needing multiple accounts to do anything solo, and this isn't going to make it any better. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
180
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:57:00 -
[284] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote: I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot. /shrug -Liang
^THIS
they are FIGATES
hop in dessie and just voley trough them one volley at a time
Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Traykoff
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
0
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Posted - 2012.08.21 17:58:00 -
[285] - Quote
Yes! Please do implement this. Would be a good addition to the wolf packs |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:01:00 -
[286] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: See my edit ...
The only offsetting thing I can imagine is making them significantly more expensive than they currently are or have a higher threshold to get into (or both). Otherwise I will never leave station without at least three RR frigate alts, just like I never leave station without off grid boosting.
3 RR frigates is not something I'm going to overly worry about. Feel free - real PVPers will enjoy the killmails.
-Liang
Ed: Also, I think you DRAMATICALLY underestimate the amount of time and effort is going to be involved in keeping up a fleet of a dozen logi frigates. They're paper thin and even in the best case, setting up that RR is going to take a SUBSTANTIAL amount of time.
I think you'd honestly be better off with Vexors and RR drones. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:04:00 -
[287] - Quote
I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.
I think I can manage a few RR pilots. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:13:00 -
[288] - Quote
Maliatida wrote:I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.
I think I can manage a few RR pilots.
Edit: Really, they are trivially priced frigates that can use equally cheap meta mods in free (<900ksp) clones. If you want to try to volley the ~1m ISK ship I don't care about in your significantly more expensive ship while I tackle you in whatever ship I care to kill you in, you are more than welcome.
Hahaha, I think you're dramatically underestimating the amount of time and cost of setting up 20 frigs to RR someone. But hey, feel free to bring your fleet of 20 logi frigs to Amamake. We'll rumble. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2767
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:14:00 -
[289] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: 3 RR frigates is not something I'm going to overly worry about. Feel free - real PVPers will enjoy the killmails.
QFT. I love these things, but really I'm just excited to kill them as much as I am to fly them. There are so many ships out there designed to kill frigates (including other frigates) that don't see much use these days because of lack of targets. With the prevalence of gang compositions that can tank gate guns in lowsec (in other words, not frigates) fast tackle is seen more and more infrequently in favor of faster locking battlecruiser gangs. There are fast anti-tackle ships (like the Claw / Taranis and now their tech 1 counterparts) that don't see much use these days (they are bested in 1vs1 by dessies and pirate frigs), that now should have a plentiful food supply once again given the wealth of useful tech 1 frigates added to the line-up.
Logi frigates will only serve to stir up the doldrums in small gang PvP and give a lot of surrounding ships from E-war frigs and combat interceptors, all the way up to Vagabonds and smartbombing Battleships, new life and a new role in combat besides just popping the occasional Stiletto or Malediction.
This paranoia about them breaking the game is completely misplaced. They were intentionally designed to be at the bottom of the food chain in terms of survivability, even Griffins can serve as a greater force multiplier in fleets and operate at much further effective range, and I see them die in droves every single day. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:25:00 -
[290] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Griffins
Speaking of which, a fleet of a dozen of these would be really infuriating as a solo PVPer. I guess I'd have to fit up an Ishtar?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:28:00 -
[291] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote:I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.
I think I can manage a few RR pilots.
Edit: Really, they are trivially priced frigates that can use equally cheap meta mods in free (<900ksp) clones. If you want to try to volley the ~1m ISK ship I don't care about in your significantly more expensive ship while I tackle you in whatever ship I care to kill you in, you are more than welcome. Hahaha, I think you're dramatically underestimating the amount of time and cost of setting up 20 frigs to RR someone. But hey, feel free to bring your fleet of 20 logi frigs to Amamake. We'll rumble. :) -Liang
Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).
No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.
You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
139
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:35:00 -
[292] - Quote
I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.
The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.
I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.
Thoughts? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:39:00 -
[293] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).
No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.
You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem.
You can feel free to multibox 3 logi frigs and a main and I'll be walking away with 4 kills.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Ryelek d'Entari
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:40:00 -
[294] - Quote
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but...
The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively.
However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead?
Here's the current list:
- Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
- Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
- Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)
Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay.
(also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group) |
Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.21 18:52:00 -
[295] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote: Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).
No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.
You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem.
You can feel free to multibox 3 logi frigs and a main and I'll be walking away with 4 kills. -Liang
You should really read before responding.
The issue is that the logi frigs would not need to be piloted. Set assist, start reps, orbit, done.
You've now set up a situation in which a single player, with minimal investment, can shut down a deadspace area with ease to anything short of a significantly larger group. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:58:00 -
[296] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: You should really read before responding.
The issue is that the logi frigs would not need to be piloted. Set assist, start reps, orbit, done.
You've now set up a situation in which a single player, with minimal investment, can shut down a deadspace area with ease to anything short of a significantly larger group.
And that's the thing about it. You set assist, start reps, orbit, and then the entire battlefield changes. They're slow and easily kited. They cap out easily and are vulnerable to neuts and ewar. They're paper thin. They're free kills. And after that, so are you. But no matter how you slice it, arguing for nerfs on the basis of 4-20 vs 1 is simply madness. And meaningless.
But whatever, you've said your piece. Everyone is going to fire up 5-20 accounts and multibox fleets of logi frigs for solo PVP. So Sayeth The Great Maliatida!!!!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1146
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Posted - 2012.08.21 19:01:00 -
[297] - Quote
Ryelek d'Entari wrote:Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but... The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively. However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead? Here's the current list:
- Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
- Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
- Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)
Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay. (also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group)
Yep, those rewards have not been updated in quite a while. I'll double check tomorrow to make sure our NPE team has a defect in the system for it (I think they already do). |
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1226
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Posted - 2012.08.21 19:18:00 -
[298] - Quote
And to think I was called crazy when I was training people on the concept of frigate RR/logistics...
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Metal Icarus
Endless Destruction
251
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Posted - 2012.08.21 19:52:00 -
[299] - Quote
With these new frigates being introduced, a new tutorial mission should be introduced.
The frigate logi rescue mission!
Mission: To rescue an NPC squad from pirates!
it would be an awesome introduction to logistics from the get-go!
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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
139
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Posted - 2012.08.21 19:55:00 -
[300] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.
The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.
I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.
Thoughts?
Alright some numbers. If I didn't miss any skills 3 small remote armor reps on the proposed ships would produce 120 hit points per second of rep amount . 3 small remote armor reps unbonused would produce 80 hit points per second. 5 light drones with a 20% per level bonus would repair 35 hitpoints per second. This would leave a difference of 5 hitpoints per second. You could solve this by changing the base repair amount of T2 light drones to be 16 instead of 14. This would make them produce the same rep amount per second. Or tweak the rep cycle vs rep amount.
Please help us battle the homogeneity of these frigates. Seriously 256k requirement is nothing compared to the long train into logistics. Again Drones V will help in every Gallente ship!
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