more drones for self defense would be nice

I appreciate that they are slow and fragile but
1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.

2) Logi dont get +50% rep power, these do.

3) For PvE, the tank and speed on these is meaningless

4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin

Indeed, but minor plex camps are already so powerful that I think the solution lies with giving people other plexes to hit so that we keep gangs moving.

When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone.

A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.

its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor

because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)

think bout it ;)

When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone.

Looks good on paper but if I remember correctly, most of the time in Frig Roams most frigs insta-pop even in small pvp engagements. New Logi pilots --- needed to learn how to be frustrated? I dont ever remember frig fights where I had enough time to even broadcast for reps never mind lock someone else and provide them. Exercise in futility, 0 for 2 with CCP F.uck it up. First making mining worthless again and now this? Maybe you want to to try your luck at drawing pretty laserz in the graphics department, management might feel like they are getting something for that paycheck.

One concern I have is that this is going to further encourage multiboxing. Where currently everyone and their grandma has an off-grid booster and call it "solo", now they're going to have one more account for this "pocket healer". I mean it's great for CCP income-wise, but this will wreck a new player experience.

Hopefully, frigates will be relevant again. And not just for solo or newbies.

excellent, clearly the game needs more piloting-independent methods of providing damage mitigation

good job ccp

wouldnt the logicl path here be to make the osprey and its counter parts into a full t1 logi criuser. ?

how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?

I completely agree.

Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles.
Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.

I doubt Kil2 will like this.

And they should probably have lower sensor strength to make jamming them more effective.

The new 2-lowslot griffin should be able to more or less permajam a logistc frigate or 3

Force multipliers as strong as logi should not be on throwaway disposable hulls

You mean like EAFs? Let's be frank here, with the cost of a full t2/deadspace fit, the difference between a fully fit t1 frig and fully fit t2 frig is negligible.

Sounds like the game lacks a counter to these new frigates. Where is the frigate-sized, equally cheap ship that has range bonuses to energy neutralizing to suck the logi frigs dry?

And they should probably have lower sensor strength to make jamming them more effective.

Awesome!
now please make a tech II version!

these ships are just too awesome for us vets not to have one and a tech II version is just pure sweet!

make the gal have a bonus to remote ECCM

make the caldari have a bonus to remote sensor boosters

make the ammar have a bonus ( well i dunno what counters target painting remotely?) you would need some new mod thats a remote senor shadow (reduces sig raduis of target ship)

then tracking link for minnie to counter tracking disrupters...

Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.

They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).

I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.

These frigates seems very far from the resilience of T2 logi we have now, and I'm not sure they will be able to repair effectively while fleeing from swarm of drones : MWD is hard to permarun with cap intensive modules on a frigate. As Fozzie said, they are slow and even AF may catch them. They will have a very hard life on the battlefield.

If solo : kill the logi frig ; it'll be easier and faster than anything before. If they have more than one logi frig, then they would have been at least 3, and you would have been in great trouble anyway.

yeah serious kill the logi then that other ship would not have an internal rep so it goes down fast too...

someone tell me again whats this guys problems or did someone pee in his cheerios this morning...

These frigates seems very far from the resilience of T2 logi we have now, and I'm not sure they will be able to repair effectively while fleeing from swarm of drones : MWD is hard to permarun with cap intensive modules on a frigate. As Fozzie said, they are slow and even AF may catch them. They will have a very hard life on the battlefield.

If solo : kill the logi frig ; it'll be easier and faster than anything before. If they have more than one logi frig, then they would have been at least 3, and you would have been in great trouble anyway.

A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is breakable with 2 assault frigs no prob, usually an assault frig with no damage mods does 170-200 dps, should work nice.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - indeed, this is a good advice, one af keeps the other ship pinned down while the other one mwd's to the logig frig.

You guys realize that the Thrasher just went and became THE t1 destroyer with the introduction of these ships?

You guys realize that the Thrasher just went and became THE t1 destroyer with the introduction of these ships?

...Everyone needs more logistics support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.

Your example is horrible. Here i fixed it for you. Oh yeah just to make sure you understand, my ruppie with scimi support will kill your t2 cruiser np.

Bullshit. a vaga can engage outside scram range and can then just chase down the scimi, and can probably just break your reps anyway.

And a cynabal can just dual prop around with med ecm drones on the scimi

... I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.

You mean it wasn't already?

Looks good on paper but if I remember correctly, most of the time in Frig Roams most frigs insta-pop even in small pvp engagements. New Logi pilots --- needed to learn how to be frustrated? I dont ever remember frig fights where I had enough time to even broadcast for reps never mind lock someone else and provide them. Exercise in futility, 0 for 2 with CCP F.uck it up. First making mining worthless again and now this? Maybe you want to to try your luck at drawing pretty laserz in the graphics department, management might feel like they are getting something for that paycheck.

Should make for an interesting change, but they really seem too similar.

Can't we have boni to cap transfers on the Amarr/Caldari versions ? As a stepping stone towards the cap chains of Guardians/Basilisks ?

Seriously? That would make the Inquisitor and Bantam useless.

I'm not going to rule out creating t2 versions of these someday, but the t1 versions are all that's coming for winter and t2 versions would be a somewhat more difficult balancing problem if we ever do them.

Few of us in the alliance gamed it out. It is possable to put a med repper on the ship making it usable to rep large pos. I dont see a use for it out side of repping a pos while the main fleet fighting else where. It has no tank to speak of and there for unuseable even on our assult frig fleets. The ship is nothing but a kill mail waiting to happen in the logi role.

1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.

**** off with this elitist bullshit. Everyone needs more logistics support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.

Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.

They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).

I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.

An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.

This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships.

Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers

Inquisitor:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
Slot layout: 3 H, 2 M, 4 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 51 PWG, 135 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 225 / 500 / 330
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 400 / 200s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 1470000 / 4.95s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 700 / 7
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 34
Cargo capacity: 250

But if there's a logi frigate it's no longer a 1v1, it's a 1v2. Add a second ship on the other side and the picture changes a lot (or swap the logi frigate for another Merlin and the picture stays pretty similar).

So these ships have a max rep range of 28.8km with T2 reps and are generally among the slowest of the tech one frigates

how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?

I appreciate that they are slow and fragile but

1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.

2) Logi dont get +50% rep power, these do.

3) For PvE, the tank and speed on these is meaningless

4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin

I fear it makes soloing impossible. killing frig sized targets can be extremely hard. This forces you to kill them first, while they are tanking hundreds or thousands of applied dps

unlike eaf ewar remote reps stack infinitely.
There is no reason to not spam these ships and b
put every single new player in one

*Sigh*

I would rather you got T1 "logistics cruisers" right before you even consider haring off making a NEW logistics ship. It's not like logi isn't already detrimental to solo and small gang warfare, and that's hard enough to engage in and teach as it is!

Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.

Let us know what you think!

This.

Why do three races lose their mining frigate but Amarr lose their missile frigate?

It should be the tormentor, the fact that it's all ready been turned into the punisher mk2 hints at a complete lack of forethought for these changes.

Oh yey won't EVE be fun when everything is the same. We can't have one damn frigate that's different from all the rest can we!

I await the Abaddon becoming the logistics BS.

I'm going to make yet another suggestion for this thread

T2 logi = larger rep class (+smaller sig, better resists etc)

T1 logi frigates = small reps
T2 logi frigates = medium reps

T1 logi cruiser = medium reps
T2 logi cruiser = large reps

You do realize there's a huge difference between that extra ship being a force multiplier (like logistic ship or recon) and yet another generic combat vessel, right

You (CCP) thinking it's impossible to fight 1 vs 10+ doesn't mean it's indeed impossible. What makes it impossible are one-sided game 'features' like current ECM, damping, OP RRing etc. which allow those in superior numbers to render opposing ship(s) completely (!) useless.

I solo PVP frequently and I'm not afraid of this change. In fact, I'd say you're overlooking the change that is ACTUALLY going to make solo PVP hard.

-Liang

tbh i want to see the large reps taken away from tech II logi sihps...

it gives them WAY! too much scaleability for a ship that size...

i would much rather see a new BS added to the game... that used large RR... that would make sense as they have very large sig radius to start with... so with thier ability to rep would come with thier ability to die!

I would even like to see a tech II version logi BS thats used with the target breaker mod... its tech II bonus would reduce the side effects when the mod is active... (this would help counter the blob for smaller gangs)

you mean the ewar frigs?

I would have preferred an Electronic Support frigate that gave remote ECCM and Remote SeBo's etc

Guess the future is small and fast ships in large swarms

So you'd need 2-3 Logis repping one guy to sustain him under a single medium DPS BC? I guess removing effective logistics from the game is one way to go about it.

-Liang

That's exactly what I'm saying: everyone needs more hot-drop support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.

you know i would not mind the meidum remote reps getting an increase in rep amount per lev to help out logi curisers II... but IMO the range of Large reps is whats making them OP...

but having large reps on a bs sized ship would be OK for me because of the many disadvantages of bs sized ships... large sig radius... slow... bad agility... terribad locking time... and so on...

On that same note.. Nidhogguring the minmatar logistics would be unfortunate.

Your idea would ultimately just remove long range logistics from the game. The fallout would be that kiting in a logistics ship would become impossible and so would long range RR. Furthermore, battleship sized logis would never be used for a tremendous number of reasons. So really, the game would just be worse off for no good reason.

-Liang

t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap

Sounds solid.

well no 1 ccp already said they want cruisers to be faster and more agile... so they will end up being nano any ways...

as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?

the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...

so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!

also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard off... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...

So, the thing about it is that 20km of RR range is a really big deal, especially given the fact that they're cruisers. The simple fact of the matter is that fights involving kiting can be really spread out (100s of km) and a Logi is expected to be everywhere... all the time. Furthermore, logistics don't need a RR amount nerf - as it stands a 3 RR Scimitar is not going to keep up a BC against another BC.

And ultimately, the problem you're concerned about (RR BS disappearance) has absolutely nothing to do with logistics ships. They weren't even boosted around that time. What you're seeing is the effect of BOMBS and SUPERCARRIERS. Bringing RR BS is asking to lose your entire fleet to 4 bombers.

-Liang

what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :(

The Tristan became a drone boat instead.

t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap

Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets?

Right now, just with the cruisers, one tech 2 logistic cruiser can outrepair anywhere from 5-10 battleships worth of damage.

*in before the faggots spam stupid arguments to counter this.

In addition to what Liang said I think range is even MORE important for frig gangs than for the current logis. The current logi ships are faster and more agile than most of the ships they will be repping. They have great range (71km for my badly skilled scimi) and plus they have the speed to burn towards anyone out of range, enabling them to effectively rep most anyone on grid.

In comparison, with the ~28ish max range for frigs you are setting them up for failure. Logi frigs will obviously only be mainly used for frigate gangs, and combined with the speed and tank (or lack thereof) of frigates, having a larger range seems MORE important to these new frigates than to their Cruiser counterparts. In addition, most frigates speed tank, meaning more spread out fleets of frigates and often it seems they may end up being faster than the logi ships.

Does this not sound like it would be a problem?

If we find that the range isn't enough it is open to possible changes after we roll out the testing. But I don't really want them to be able to sit so far away that catching them becomes extremely difficult.

Putting them right on the edge of longpoint and heavy neut range was intentional.

indeed i just had an argument with liang who forgot about wh space and high sec as a reason not to bring RR in line...

No, you had an argument where you presented terrible reasoning for a terrible nerf. I proceded to destroy your reasoning and now you're just making **** up. And in case it has escaped your attention, I've spent 2.5 of the last 3 years living in wormholes. I might just know something about it.

-Liang

In order for this to be true, you would need a Guardian with 6 LRAR IIs repping someone with a large HP buffer and 96% for their LOWEST resist. What I tend to see is that a 4-5 rep Scim/Basi is going to keep a Battlecruiser up against exactly one battleship if and only if you have an off grid Tengu boosting.

Otherwise that BC is going to die.



It's not stupid to point out that you're just making **** up.

-Liang

Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles.
Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.

So you are saying we won't get to see a Tech 1 Khanid Kingdom ship for Amarr?

right so thats why you chose to use supercarriers as an example... how good are they in wh space again? or bombs in high sec...

its not a terrible idea... its a great one... one that you PERSONALLY dont agree with... and using t3 bc is kinda cold as they have terribad HP and die easy...
and to this i would suggest how about we just agree to not agree because neither of us is going to convince the other that thier ideas are wrong... but hopefully we have presented reasonable arguments that ccp then can use in internal convos to better enhance the game...

******** arguement number 1... check.

You can just look to the alliance tournament as proof of reality versus theory. You only need 3-4 large repairer and gang bonuses to do massive **** tons of reps. First of all, not everyone is a maxed out implanted dps pilot. Secondly, most BS don't go above about 900 dps in optimal close range practically and fights under those conditions rarely if ever happen. Third if you look at most fleet comps in game these days, they all center around resistance based t2/t3 fleets, or resistance bonused t1 fleets (drake, rokh, abaddon), and range above 50km... again, factoring into the reasonable damage calcs for BS pilots.... 900 dps isn't going to happen at that range.

When you start adding in the counter BS fleets, which are almost always low sig, AB fleets of some sort, their dps falls further off a cliff in most scenarios. Again requiring yet more ways to counter the logistics problem alone rather than having more reasonable counters.

So my statement is true beyond your apparently clumsy eft faggotry math.

So it's looking like FW will become even worse after the winter expansion. Griffins and logistics everywhere, no fun allowed.

We don't have any plans to release tech one ships made by the tech two ship producers.

Khanid faction ships would be cool, maybe someday.

I wouldn't worry about Griffins. Worry about Crucifiers. A new Crucifier will be able to take a Scorch Geddon to a 500m optimal.

-Liang

A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.

.... two things, no three

first, eve isn't balanced around 1v1

second, that's not a 1v1 scenario

third, biomass yourself /ingame

There are not 10-15 battleships duking it out in the alliance tournament. In fact, the fact that ANYTHING died in the alliance tournament is proof positive that your argument is just flat wrong.

So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?

Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?

Are you new to eve?

The problem is, there's hardly a counter for logistics, and it wrecks combat to know that you can regularly design nearly unbreakable setups in this game. This game was far better off when logistics weren't so ******* retardedly strong.

how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?

So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?

Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?

So does this mean you're gonna make armor reps start at the beginning of the cycle? Because 5 seconds is a long time to wait for a rep to land in a frigate.

A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.

Got to page 4 and saw no response to this Fozzie. While conceptually I like a tech I logi frigate and an improved tech I logi cruiser, you really need to rethink some of the current mechanics in the game. Having the remote armor reps take 5 seconds after lock forces more and bigger plates on armor frigs. This in turn reduces their mobility even more. Just another scenario of reinforcing the supremacy of shield kiting ships in the game (here at the frigate level).

Call me nostalgic but I would have loved to see the Navitas made into the drone boat. It just looks so awesome, especially alongside the Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. The Tristan never looked very Gallente to me. I don't suppose you're willing to swap the models around, but maintain the same stats? You did it once with the Helios :)

Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's.

Are you so ******** as to say that 1 logistics is able to prevent an entire group of ships from dieing? no, 1 logistic can be killed, which is why my entire arguement surrounds scaling you ******** *******. My point about the tournament was how fights where the SOLO logistic wasn't targeted first showed massive tanking of 3 highly speced cr bs fits, or multiple command ships. Any normal fight won't see such ideal conditions for the offensive side as that tournament showed, and yet the logistics were still highly powerful.

The problem is, there's hardly a counter for logistics, and it wrecks combat to know that you can regularly design nearly unbreakable setups in this game. This game was far better off when logistics weren't so ******* retardedly strong.

Nobody in this game finds it fun when the other side is unbreakable... it just leads to fights that take way too long to decide, for hardly any real action.

unlike eaf ewar remote reps stack infinitely.
There is no reason to not spam these ships and b
put every single new player in one

I completely agree.

Khanid faction ships would be cool, maybe someday.

Call me nostalgic but I would have loved to see the Navitas made into the drone boat. It just looks so awesome, especially alongside the Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. The Tristan never looked very Gallente to me. I don't suppose you're willing to swap the models around, but maintain the same stats? You did it once with the Helios :)

Putting them in heavy neut range without the slots for a cap booster is kinda mean. ;-)

-Liang

Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's.

@Fozzie

You have to consider the repping power of 400DPS that is way to much. This is more than Sentries in lowsec apply ....

I'd love to see reduced cycle time instead of increased repair amount on these things. Frigates are small, frigate fights are fast. No sense repairing 110% of my target's shields each cycle, know what I mean?