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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1062

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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello again everyone. Hope you all had a good weekend.
This post will cover the last four tech one frigates to get a discussion thread. This is in many ways the trickiest but also the most rewarding part of the winter frigate rebalance, since we are creating a new role for these frigates and hopefully shaking up frigate combat quite a bit.
Each race will be getting a tech one logistics frigate, bonused in remote repairing. These ships will be replacing the mining frigates that are being displaced by the new ORE frigate, taking the Inquisitor from the Amarr lineup instead because we already stole the Tormentor to make a mini-Armageddon.
Our goals here are 1)Create a new set of interesting gameplay choices when flying or fighting against frigate groups 2)Provide an upgrade path for new players on their way to Logistics ships
These ships are weaker for their size than our T2 Logistics Ships are, and that is by design. This reflects both the lower cost and SP investment and our desire that these ships compliment current frigate warfare without eclipsing all the other ships in the lineup. I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.
So these ships have a max rep range of 28.8km with T2 reps and are generally among the slowest of the tech one frigates. We built them quite heavy so that they perform closer to destroyers/interdictors than the other frigates. Piloting these ships effectively in the midst of a battle will require some thought, helping create ships that are easy to get into but take time to master.
Along with the changes to the ships we are also changing the fitting requirements of small remote armor and shield reps. Details of those changes are (apologies for the formatting): MetatypeNamepowercpu 0Small Remote Armor Repair System I610 1Small I-ax Regenerative Projector69 2Small Coaxial Regenerative Projector69 3Small 'Arup' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction68 4Small 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction68 5Small Remote Armor Repair System II712 6Brotherhood' Small Remote Armor Repair System I610 7Beatnik' Small Remote Armor Repair system I58 11Centii C-Type Small Remote Armor Repair System810 11Coreli C-Type Small Remote Armor Repair System610 12Centii B-Type Small Remote Armor Repair System910 12Coreli B-Type Small Remote Armor Repair System610 13Centii A-Type Small Remote Armor Repair System1010 13Coreli A-Type Small Remote Armor Repair System610 0Small Shield Transporter I335 1Small Asymmetric Barrier Transpositioner I333 2Small Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I332 3Small 'Atonement' Ward Projector328 4Small S95A Partial Shield Transporter330 5Small Shield Transporter II442 11Gistii C-Type Small Shield Transporter337 11Pithi C-Type Small Shield Transporter350 12Gistii B-Type Small Shield Transporter337 12Pithi B-Type Small Shield Transporter352 13Gistii A-Type Small Shield Transporter337 13Pithi A-Type Small Shield Transporter354
Here's the stats on the ships themselves. I won't give the difference from before since these guys are in a whole new role so the previous stats don't really matter.:
Inquisitor: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 2 M, 4 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 51 PWG, 135 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 225 / 500 / 330 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 400 / 200s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 1470000 / 4.95s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 700 / 7 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 34 Cargo capacity: 250
Bantam: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount 10% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 2 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 39 PWG, 215 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 225 / 310 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 380 / 190s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 300 / 3.75 / 1480000 / 5.19s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km / 650 / 7 Sensor strength: 12 Gravimetric Signature radius: 35 Cargo capacity: 270
Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7 Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric Signature radius: 36 Cargo capacity: 280
Burst: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount 10% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 40 PWG, 205 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 / 250 / 290 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 370 / 185s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 335 / 3.55 / 1420000 / 4.72s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km / 725 / 7 Sensor strength: 9 Ladar Signature radius: 33 Cargo capacity: 260
Let us know what you think! |
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Dovinian
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1092
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
:slick: Hooray Logi Frigates |

Diana Valenti
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
34
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Winter, y u coming so slow. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
248
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Honestly, what role are these going to fill? Other than theme based fleets, Im not really sure where they will fit. Their range is a bit short for "actual" fleets, and they seem incredibly overpowered for people using them to dualbox pve, or to camp a frigate plex. |

Gheyna
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
looks cool, (i want covert ops logi frigs) |

Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
214
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
This is fantastic.
No really, it is. |

Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2308
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Oh my.
Frig roams just went from suicide fun gangs to scary effective and hard to deal with harassment. Also, now our newbros have options in fleets! TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |

Celestarias
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is amazing.
Now I can scream about people spamming shield broadcasts in my frigate fleets now too! :sun: |

School Nickname Worldmonkey
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jaguar supremacy for life. Deal with it. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
248
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
I appreciate that they are slow and fragile but
1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.
2) Logi dont get +50% rep power, these do.
3) For PvE, the tank and speed on these is meaningless
4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin
|
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Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
I've never been so happy. |

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
8
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
more drones for self defense would be nice |

CyberRaver
Black Omega Security Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yes yes a thousand times yes Frigate roams became 1000x deadlier now |

Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:more drones for self defense would be nice
They aren't for self defense, they are for assigning out and whoring killmails. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
522
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Awesome! now please make a tech II version!
these ships are just too awesome for us vets not to have one and a tech II version is just pure sweet!
make the gal have a bonus to remote ECCM
make the caldari have a bonus to remote sensor boosters
make the ammar have a bonus ( well i dunno what counters target painting remotely?) you would need some new mod thats a remote senor shadow (reduces sig raduis of target ship)
then tracking link for minnie to counter tracking disrupters... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
759
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cool |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
248
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Also these ships are not slow - they have the same base speed as hulls such as the rifter. |

Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
214
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
So does this mean you're gonna make armor reps start at the beginning of the cycle? Because 5 seconds is a long time to wait for a rep to land in a frigate. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1064

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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ok answers to excellent questions coming up:
Michael Harari wrote:I appreciate that they are slow and fragile but 1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm. Yup, and we balanced them with the idea that T2 will be baseline and C and B type reps relatively common. I've been keeping a close eye on the number of small faction reps in existance, and they're within a range I'm happy with.
Michael Harari wrote: 2) Logi dont get +50% rep power, these do.
Instead, logi get to use reps from a size larger. The rep power of these ships relative to their size class is significantly less than logistics ships.
Michael Harari wrote: 3) For PvE, the tank and speed on these is meaningless
Not going to go into detail since it's not my team, but there are plans to deal with that.
Michael Harari wrote: 4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin
Indeed, but minor plex camps are already so powerful that I think the solution lies with giving people other plexes to hit so that we keep gangs moving. |
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
248
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Michael Harari wrote: 4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin
Indeed, but minor plex camps are already so powerful that I think the solution lies with giving people other plexes to hit so that we keep gangs moving.
Im talking more about the 2/10 static plexes, rather than FW plexes. |
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Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
264
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
My immediate gut reaction was "Well Done!", this certainly has the potential to shake up frigate combat and introduce some very fun mechanics into smaller hull combat. Needs testing though.
One concern I have is that this is going to further encourage multiboxing. Where currently everyone and their grandma has an off-grid booster and call it "solo", now they're going to have one more account for this "pocket healer". I mean it's great for CCP income-wise, but this will wreck a new player experience. Remember, no sane new player is going to pay for 2-3 subs (edit: especially now that F2P+store is becoming the norm, see SWTOR, GW2, etc.), and he won't be able to PLEX his account for a while, probably a month or two at best. When most people a new player fights, even at frigate level, are off-grid boosted AND logi-repaired, even ignoring the obscene advantage that the SP they have gives them...well...it just ain't gonna be fun.
Yes, I know, "join corp", "make friends", etc. All valid, but it still makes me ponder if this is pushing the game a little too much in the direction of "mandatory altagolism". |

Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
2146
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think these should be really cool, and a great chance for new folks to learn to love the logi... CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
248
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed. |

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Catholic School for Boys A Point In Space
41
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
this will be fun for sure :D
navitas/burst/bantam/inquisitor is primary... i guess the old bantam lady never thought to get this much attention in a fight ^^ |

CyberRaver
Black Omega Security Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
My only question is: are we getting t2 versions of these? Purely as a stepping stone to real logi and something more skill intensive for small frigate gang enthusiasts |

Celestarias
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
A T2 version of these frigates to fly along side the AFs, that have the same bonuses as Logistics ships would be something to die for.
Having the T2 resists, and the energy transfer range/cap regen of the next size or two larger (To represent their respective Logi counterparts) would do wonders for small gang PVP, because these ships would be able to keep up with Vagabonds and other fast doctrines that solely depend on their speed to tank. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1064

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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm not going to rule out creating t2 versions of these someday, but the t1 versions are all that's coming for winter and t2 versions would be a somewhat more difficult balancing problem if we ever do them. |
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Zverofaust
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
104
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
These sound like they are going to be pure awesome. I too would like to know if we can expect any changes to the way armor reps work, as yeah, waiting til the end of cycle to apply reps is ****** for a frigate. |

Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Looks good on papper but you if I remember correctly, most of the time in Frig Roams most frigs insta-pop even in small pvp engagements. Exercise in futility, 0 for 2 with CCP F.uck it up. First making mining worthless again and now this? Maybe you want to to try your luck at drawing pretty laserz in the graphics department, management might feel like they are getting somethign for tha paycheck. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2748
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
I can't wait to see what you guys think! These are my favorite new frigates, hands down. We bugged CCP a lot about considering these, I just couldnt see the use for another "sniper frig" in terms of a role when we already have ranged frigates and sniping will always be bested by dessies anyways. Hope you enjoy! o7 Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
749
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Posted - 2012.08.20 12:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone. 14 |

Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
424
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
+1 respect for this :D with max skills and tech 2 reps, they will do 432 hitpoints per 4.5 sec, it's not so bad Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |

Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
5
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:00:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't think these will overpower AFs and the like, as Michael suggests. While they will provide significant tank to a teammate, if they decide to fit a MWD they will cap themselves rather quickly. They can choose to either do their intended purpose of repping, OR avoid the pursuing badass AF.
Think of them as the fat kid sharing candy. They can sprint faster than the bully...but not for long! |

Miura Bull
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
29
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Good grief.
+1 everything Michael said.  |

Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
266
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
So if you use carriers to rep POSs, you use these to rep GSCs? :D |

Arrgthepirate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone.
Yes, how dare newbies have a low skill option to see if they like a ship before they spend months training for the big boy version! Just because you walked uphill both ways to school in the snow without shoes doesn't mean your kids have to. Things get better as time goes on. |

Penelope Star
36
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
the Healing Burst Looking forward to flying it ! I know your type: -á tall, dark and dead |

Belsina
STAHLSTURM Test Friends Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1066

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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.
But if there's a logi frigate it's no longer a 1v1, it's a 1v2. Add a second ship on the other side and the picture changes a lot (or swap the logi frigate for another Merlin and the picture stays pretty similar).
Also keep in mind that the mass on these ships changes their speed when ABing and MWDing. They're already fairly slow (the Burst (335m/s) is closer to the speed of a Punisher (330m/s) than the speed of a Rifter (355m/s)). And with a MWD running the Enyo is actually the same speed as a Navitas since the Enyo has significantly lower mass. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1066

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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Belsina wrote:its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;)
Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better. |
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Uranium 242
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone.
**** off with this elitist bullshit. Everyone needs more logistics support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.
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Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
8
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:12:00 -
[42] - Quote
so fozzie besides maybe adding some more drones to these ships what t2 frigs will be out for winter ? |

Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
8
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'm sad that i will never see my solo PvP Bantam come true now.
But i still like this overall. I may have to rejoin RvB for a while when these Frigates hit TQ, because i can see RvB using them all over the place. They never really used T2 Logis or their T1 counterparts, but i think they will give those here a try. And i want to see how that plays out.
FW will see some use, too, i guess.
As for the ship stats themselves, i can't really say anything about that. I don't know much about remote repping, so i don't know how well their stats are balanced among the class. |

Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
5
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
What I can definitely see happening is wolfpack gangs of frigs taking on gangs of larger ships. This will force the group of larger ships to call in or reship to smaller ships. Hopefully this will generate the "battles within battles" of frigates that was mentioned in the Alliance Tournament.
Hopefully, frigates will be relevant again. And not just for solo or newbies. |

Kyle Yanowski
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
57
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
Javajunky wrote:Looks good on paper but if I remember correctly, most of the time in Frig Roams most frigs insta-pop even in small pvp engagements. New Logi pilots --- needed to learn how to be frustrated? I dont ever remember frig fights where I had enough time to even broadcast for reps never mind lock someone else and provide them. Exercise in futility, 0 for 2 with CCP F.uck it up. First making mining worthless again and now this? Maybe you want to to try your luck at drawing pretty laserz in the graphics department, management might feel like they are getting something for that paycheck.
Why are you even here? |

Kitty Vintner
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: One concern I have is that this is going to further encourage multiboxing. Where currently everyone and their grandma has an off-grid booster and call it "solo", now they're going to have one more account for this "pocket healer". I mean it's great for CCP income-wise, but this will wreck a new player experience.
My new player experience: "Logistics ships look cool, let's just plot it out in evemon-oh it'll take like five months to get into one ~nevermind~". |

BBQ FTW
The Hatchery Team Liquid
15
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
excellent, clearly the game needs more piloting-independent methods of providing damage mitigation
good job ccp |

Haraku Malzahar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
Shiroh Yatamii wrote:Hopefully, frigates will be relevant again. And not just for solo or newbies. because frigates are at all currently used, right? http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&view=kills&all_id=3716&m=8&y=2012&scl_id=4 |

tgl3
Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms
153
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:40:00 -
[49] - Quote
Massive +1 from me, these look fun as hell to fly. I write a blog. I think people read it. http://throughnewbeyes.wordpress.com
Mate |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
251
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
BBQ FTW wrote:excellent, clearly the game needs more piloting-independent methods of providing damage mitigation
good job ccp
Orbit, f1 f2 f3 is super hard |
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Sven Wolfbane
Violent Alternatives C0NVICTED
2
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:44:00 -
[51] - Quote
wtb T3 frigates .. it's about time CCP... |

serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
wouldnt the logicl path here be to make the osprey and its counter parts into a full t1 logi criuser. ? |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1070

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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
serras bang wrote:wouldnt the logicl path here be to make the osprey and its counter parts into a full t1 logi criuser. ?
I completely agree. |
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Mizhir
Club Bear
73
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Sweet
These are gonna shake everything up in small scale cheap ass combat. Perfect for RVB :)
And long range frigs might be more useful now. To drive off the enemy logi frigs. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
251
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder? |

Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Kraken.
60
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
This probably shouldn't be done. Logistics and ECM are both very powerful, but logistics is limited to less than a few of ships (gimped on most). Proliferation of logistics is a dangerous move. Possibly even a dumb move. |

Gabriel Luis
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
1
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:55:00 -
[57] - Quote
I think the Amarr one should get a cap bonus like the Augoror. Then it would be very viable to have some logi in frigate fleets.
(tl;dr) |

Mizhir
Club Bear
73
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:55:00 -
[58] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?
Actually I was thinking about the same. I doubt Kil2 will like this. But if CCP balances it well it should be possible to deal with them as solo pvpers. Atleast I hope. |

Geoscape
RvB - BLUE Republic
37
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
I am so happy right now 
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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
113
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:58:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:serras bang wrote:wouldnt the logicl path here be to make the osprey and its counter parts into a full t1 logi criuser. ? I completely agree.
well...
logically, shouldn't we have a (new) logi destroyer between these new logi T1 frigs and the (future revamped/balanced) logi t1 cruisers?
we have a brawler destoyers... looking at all these frig changes and roles, I would say we need 1 line of sniper destroyers, 1 line of elect. warfare destroyers and now a new line of logi destoyers to make the bridge between the new revamp t1 frigates and the future t1 (revamped/balanced) cruisers Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
|

Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 13:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;) Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
However, the Kestrel, Tristan, Breacher and Inqusitor also serves as the basis for the new stealth bombers. They are not the same hull anymore, but they are clearly enlarged derivates from the original hulls. So for the 3 other races, the stealhtbomber will be based of one of the combat frigates, while for the Amarr the stealh bomber will be based on the logistic frigate. That doesnt really makes sense. So in the interest of keeping a reasonable lore, I'd say switch the hulls.
If you are not doing it now, players will probably bug you about it for the next 5 years anyway  |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1073

|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder? I doubt Kil2 will like this.
I expect I would get an earful from him and Kovorix if it wasn't for the fact that he completely ignores frigates. 
Yes any change that extends the length of fights and makes killing key ships quickly harder makes soloing harder, and that's something we knew going into this. In the end we believe that the options this gives small gangs and new pilots outweighs the downsides.
We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them. |
|

Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
Sounds like the game lacks a counter to these new frigates. Where is the frigate-sized, equally cheap ship that has range bonuses to energy neutralizing to suck the logi frigs dry?
And they should probably have lower sensor strength to make jamming them more effective. The Invulnerability Sphere:Make mining/industrial vessels defendable, better fights for everyone! |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
252
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
I fear it makes soloing impossible. killing frig sized targets can be extremely hard. This forces you to kill them first, while they are tanking hundreds or thousands of applied dps |

Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:10:00 -
[65] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:
And they should probably have lower sensor strength to make jamming them more effective.
The new 2-lowslot griffin should be able to more or less permajam a logistc frigate or 3 |

Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
572
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
I'm looking forward to fly a T2 Navitas one day... Dominique Vasilkovsky Mashie Saldana Monica Foulkes |

Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
323
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:14:00 -
[67] - Quote
Blade Ripley wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:
And they should probably have lower sensor strength to make jamming them more effective.
The new 2-lowslot griffin should be able to more or less permajam a logistc frigate or 3
Yeah, the Burst has a single-digit sensor strength. Nine, heh. Depends on what CCP's mysterious "idea" for ECM is though.
Also, their shortish lock ranges will make RSDs on the new Maulus reasonably effective if the target logi wants to hang about outside tackle range. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
252
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:15:00 -
[68] - Quote
Force multipliers as strong as logi should not be on throwaway disposable hulls |

aoeu Itonula
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:17:00 -
[69] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Force multipliers as strong as logi should not be on throwaway disposable hulls You mean like EAFs? Let's be frank here, with the cost of a full t2/deadspace fit, the difference between a fully fit t1 frig and fully fit t2 frig is negligible. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
252
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
aoeu Itonula wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Force multipliers as strong as logi should not be on throwaway disposable hulls You mean like EAFs? Let's be frank here, with the cost of a full t2/deadspace fit, the difference between a fully fit t1 frig and fully fit t2 frig is negligible. unlike eaf ewar remote reps stack infinitely. There is no reason to not spam these ships and b put every single new player in one |
|

serras bang
Lucien Coven
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:24:00 -
[71] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Sounds like the game lacks a counter to these new frigates. Where is the frigate-sized, equally cheap ship that has range bonuses to energy neutralizing to suck the logi frigs dry?
And they should probably have lower sensor strength to make jamming them more effective.
Long range missle bombardment ? |

Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
It will make solo harder only in the sense of you, a solo pilot, engaging more than one person at a time. It wouldn't be 1v1, it would be 1v2. If you honestly expect your single ship to be able to counter two ships of equal size and the like, I'm not sure what to tell you. EVE is not fundamentally a solo game. Solo can be fun, but solo activities are not the baseline by which we should measure the utility of ships or modules. The corporation is, after all, the fundamental unit of organization in the game.
This is not an RPG where you are the Big Hero who takes on All The Bad Guys at once. While incredibly skilled (and sometimes lucky) pilots can take on multiple enemies at once and survive, this is the exception rather than the norm by mechanics and design. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
522
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Awesome! now please make a tech II version!
these ships are just too awesome for us vets not to have one and a tech II version is just pure sweet!
make the gal have a bonus to remote ECCM
make the caldari have a bonus to remote sensor boosters
make the ammar have a bonus ( well i dunno what counters target painting remotely?) you would need some new mod thats a remote senor shadow (reduces sig raduis of target ship)
then tracking link for minnie to counter tracking disrupters...
to expand further on this i would like to see the other tech II bonus be reduction in sig radius...
also the tracking link would be rather useless for the minnie one so how about an increased efficiency of cap batteries... that would make them less vulnerable to nueting...
also this brings up a good point the frig sized ones can only use small RR... which is a good thing..
i would like to see the same thing done for cruisersized logi ships where they can only fit medium sized RR...
then introduce a new bs thats logi role but can fit large ones then a tech II version that works with target breaking mods...
that way you would have a linear line of progression for logi pilots and provide some interesting roles going from frig up to bs sized ships... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
254
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:26:00 -
[74] - Quote
Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.
They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).
I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.
An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.
This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships. |

Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
51
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:27:00 -
[75] - Quote
These frigates seems very far from the resilience of T2 logi we have now, and I'm not sure they will be able to repair effectively while fleeing from swarm of drones : MWD is hard to permarun with cap intensive modules on a frigate. As Fozzie said, they are slow and even AF may catch them. They will have a very hard life on the battlefield.
If solo : kill the logi frig ; it'll be easier and faster than anything before. If they have more than one logi frig, then they would have been at least 3, and you would have been in great trouble anyway. |

El'ismhur Khunsiu
Aries Engineering Quasar Generation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:29:00 -
[76] - Quote
About rep.
I suppose you keep the transfert shield in the beginning of the cycle and for the armor in the end ?
I hope that the armor cycle will be faster ( Faster cycle but less HP repair).
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
522
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:31:00 -
[77] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.
They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).
I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.
umm no this is a MMO... if people team up there should be a bonus for that..
a drone boat would make short work of the logi frig...
so too would an alt in an ecm ship...
the fact that this changes the niche game style that you play does not make it bad...
i have played gal since i started and they have been kicked in the nuts more then once... but i still play them... remember this game evolves and if you dont with it you die!
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Geoscape
RvB - BLUE Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:31:00 -
[78] - Quote
When i was in null-sec, i flew logistics exclusively.
Most fights started with a series of blue flashes lasting maybe 15 seconds. It was all our light tackle getting annihilated by a few Lokis or other frigate killers and droneswarms. Because we were usually at range, we rarely able to save our frigs since they were very close to the enemy. As a logistics pilot this made me very sad .
With these new logistics frigates (and a few smartbombs to take care of droneswarms) the hostiles would require more than a few Lokis to keep the light tackle at bay.  |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
522
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:32:00 -
[79] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:These frigates seems very far from the resilience of T2 logi we have now, and I'm not sure they will be able to repair effectively while fleeing from swarm of drones : MWD is hard to permarun with cap intensive modules on a frigate. As Fozzie said, they are slow and even AF may catch them. They will have a very hard life on the battlefield.
If solo : kill the logi frig ; it'll be easier and faster than anything before. If they have more than one logi frig, then they would have been at least 3, and you would have been in great trouble anyway.
yeah serious kill the logi then that other ship would not have an internal rep so it goes down fast too...
someone tell me again whats this guys problems or did someone pee in his cheerios this morning... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
388
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:36:00 -
[80] - Quote
I'm not sure I buy into this at all... Frig's needed a global speed increase (+15% ish) to increase their survivability and better separate them from nano cruisers.
Moar logi really address the things that disproportionately make frigs exceptionally weak, eg, alpha, neuts and ecm - more so, they become even more prevalent. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
|

Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:37:00 -
[81] - Quote
Sounds really interesting, although I'm not 100% sold on the range. It feels a bit big and might make it even moure tricky to not multi box with the range boost being somewhere between 300 and 400 % only. Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |

iskflakes
Magnets Inc.
37
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:38:00 -
[82] - Quote
These recent frigate changes only affect about 1% of the playerbase, not worth the effort in my opinion. New DUST players won't want to rep anything anyway. Track your wealth with EVE Stats: https://ohheck.co.uk/EVEStats/home.php |

MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
64
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:38:00 -
[83] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:These frigates seems very far from the resilience of T2 logi we have now, and I'm not sure they will be able to repair effectively while fleeing from swarm of drones : MWD is hard to permarun with cap intensive modules on a frigate. As Fozzie said, they are slow and even AF may catch them. They will have a very hard life on the battlefield.
If solo : kill the logi frig ; it'll be easier and faster than anything before. If they have more than one logi frig, then they would have been at least 3, and you would have been in great trouble anyway. yeah serious kill the logi then that other ship would not have an internal rep so it goes down fast too... someone tell me again whats this guys problems or did someone pee in his cheerios this morning...
I am guess that he likes to kill easy t1 frig targets in his expensive t2 ship. Now he will have to work for it and he doesn't care for it to much. I could be wrong though |

Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
51
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:45:00 -
[84] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:These frigates seems very far from the resilience of T2 logi we have now, and I'm not sure they will be able to repair effectively while fleeing from swarm of drones : MWD is hard to permarun with cap intensive modules on a frigate. As Fozzie said, they are slow and even AF may catch them. They will have a very hard life on the battlefield.
If solo : kill the logi frig ; it'll be easier and faster than anything before. If they have more than one logi frig, then they would have been at least 3, and you would have been in great trouble anyway. I mean that I don't see this frigate as a problem because they are far less powerful than the T2 cruiser logi, even on the frigate scale. I think they are well designed as is : a powerful addition to a gang but with obvious weaknesses. |

Murashu
Phoibe Enterprises
61
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:46:00 -
[85] - Quote
Great news for those of us who like flying frigs/dessies in small gangs! Between the logi frigates and the upgraded Breacher I'm really excited about this expansion. Now where are my missile destroyers? |

Stonecold Steve
I N E X T R E M I S Fidelas Constans
60
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:48:00 -
[86] - Quote
I wonder what would happen with bomber fleets vs a full frig/destro fleet? Full t2/faction frig fleets protecting bigger fleets during ops. Including frig rep. Awesome! "Do not go where the path may lead, instead go where there is no path and leave a trail"- "You desire to know the art of living, my friend? It is contained in one phrase: make use of suffering."- |

Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
Oh yes, missile destroyers. Yes please! I am looking forward to the Minmatar one in particular. |

Manar Detri
31
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:51:00 -
[88] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is breakable with 2 assault frigs no prob, usually an assault frig with no damage mods does 170-200 dps, should work nice. Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - indeed, this is a good advice, one af keeps the other ship pinned down while the other one mwd's to the logig frig.
Your example is horrible. Here i fixed it for you. Oh yeah just to make sure you understand, my ruppie with scimi support will kill your t2 cruiser np. |

Inepsa1987
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 14:59:00 -
[89] - Quote
Fozzie best dev. Spaceship Pilot. |

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
84
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Love it Love everything about it WTB Navitas  "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
|

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
387
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:02:00 -
[91] - Quote
My first impression is that frigate gangs are about to get real. This is great news. They seem a bit homogeneous though. The differences are very minor except for the slot layout and type of remote rep bonus.
I've mentioned this a few times already I think, but is there any chance to make the new Amarr destroyer rocket based so that a stepping stone for the Malediction, Vengeance and Heretic exists? I don't think I'll like a drone-based destroyer anyway. Drakes & Tengus online: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1208/fbaugust.jpg |

Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:04:00 -
[92] - Quote
You guys realize that the Thrasher just went and became THE t1 destroyer with the introduction of these ships? |

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
84
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:06:00 -
[93] - Quote
Letrange wrote:You guys realize that the Thrasher just went and became THE t1 destroyer with the introduction of these ships?
You mean it wasn't already? "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
387
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:06:00 -
[94] - Quote
Letrange wrote:You guys realize that the Thrasher just went and became THE t1 destroyer with the introduction of these ships?
Sadly this is probably true. We need module adjustments too or the tiericide will not fully achieve its goal of diversity in ships being flown. Drakes & Tengus online: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1208/fbaugust.jpg |

Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:06:00 -
[95] - Quote
This is great! Me gusta!!!11!1!1!!!1!! confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |

Stumpet Rakingclaw
United Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:06:00 -
[96] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:...Everyone needs more logistics support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.
This. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
258
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:08:00 -
[97] - Quote
Manar Detri wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is breakable with 2 assault frigs no prob, usually an assault frig with no damage mods does 170-200 dps, should work nice. Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - indeed, this is a good advice, one af keeps the other ship pinned down while the other one mwd's to the logig frig. Your example is horrible. Here i fixed it for you. Oh yeah just to make sure you understand, my ruppie with scimi support will kill your t2 cruiser np.
Bullshit. a vaga can engage outside scram range and can then just chase down the scimi, and can probably just break your reps anyway.
And a cynabal can just dual prop around with med ecm drones on the scimi |

Grog Drinker
The Tuskers
81
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:13:00 -
[98] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Manar Detri wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is breakable with 2 assault frigs no prob, usually an assault frig with no damage mods does 170-200 dps, should work nice. Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - indeed, this is a good advice, one af keeps the other ship pinned down while the other one mwd's to the logig frig. Your example is horrible. Here i fixed it for you. Oh yeah just to make sure you understand, my ruppie with scimi support will kill your t2 cruiser np. Bullshit. a vaga can engage outside scram range and can then just chase down the scimi, and can probably just break your reps anyway. And a cynabal can just dual prop around with med ecm drones on the scimi
The scimi and vaga also have similar investments in SP and cost. The frigs in this example do not at all. |

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
113
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:26:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:... I am aware that any expansion of logistics capability in eve makes things harder for solo players, and we are endeavoring to make sure that these frigates add options to combat instead of taking them away.
I understand where you are coming from with these changes. But they still make me a bit sad sinceI have never feel anything warping into a target in a gang or fleet. I get really, really, excited/anxious/nervous/ect doing it solo and hate to see made harder to do. |

Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
523
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:28:00 -
[100] - Quote
I only recently noticed how sexy of a ship the Navitas was. I'm glad to see it getting some love. |
|

Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
284
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:32:00 -
[101] - Quote
I'm curious to see how these will impact minor plexes from a power creep standpoint. Combined with Griffins getting another midslot, the defender who is able to setup first will have an even larger advantage. I'm not totally against the defender having an advantage, but I think that overwhelming numbers(versus semi-overwhelming numbers) shouldn't the ONLY solution to overcoming this advantage.
I think a good counter could be lowering the sensor strength so that unbonused racial ECM has at least a 50% chance to jam them out, considering many of the hard counters to these frigates aren't available in small plexes.
The moar you cry the less you pee |

Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
284
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:38:00 -
[102] - Quote
MisterNick wrote:Letrange wrote:You guys realize that the Thrasher just went and became THE t1 destroyer with the introduction of these ships? You mean it wasn't already?
Midrange dessie gangs just got an obscene boost with these frigates.
The moar you cry the less you pee |

Shalassason
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 15:59:00 -
[103] - Quote
Should make for an interesting change, but they really seem too similar.
Can't we have boni to cap transfers on the Amarr/Caldari versions ? As a stepping stone towards the cap chains of Guardians/Basilisks ?
|

Ronga Dosloe
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:05:00 -
[104] - Quote
I'd like to see the effect this has on the T1 Logistics cruiser when they get around to them, if it follows the progression i'm expecting a rack of 4 Medium RRs. That would be enough repping power to warrant their use, and the requirments for them are hardly high for them either. |

Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
RvB might actually use logistics now :) i hope they remove the tracking link boost in the Scythe soon. |

Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
1002
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:09:00 -
[106] - Quote
This is awesome.
CCP, you rock.

|

Hustomte
The Scope
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:20:00 -
[107] - Quote
I finally feel vindicated after getting steam-rolled last December: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483268
I also have 175 Navitas in the cooker right now, time to go out and make a pile of Inquisitor next. 
Question for CCP Fozzie though:  There is no cap-transfer range bonus for frigs, is this intentional? To give the Augoror something to do in small fleets? I was secretly hoping for cap-transferring, if anything for the sole purpose of teaching cap-chaining to new players so they don't die in a fire when they get to the cruiser level t2's (Guardian/Basilisk).
Though I guess this can be mitigated by using an anchor person and orbiting real tight and being content with the 4km range of the small cap transfer arrays.
Cap is so important in this game, with neuts: (drones, mods, and bombs) yet people who feel its important in a battle getting ROFLSTOMPED for showing up in an Augoror or something. Yet become the pride and joy for cap-intensive activities such as POS/SBU/IHUB bashes. Someday I hope we can get cap-transfer drones. Anywho, just wondering what your thoughts are.
All the best! ...Signature... |

Ugleb
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
213
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:22:00 -
[108] - Quote
Javajunky wrote:Looks good on paper but if I remember correctly, most of the time in Frig Roams most frigs insta-pop even in small pvp engagements. New Logi pilots --- needed to learn how to be frustrated? I dont ever remember frig fights where I had enough time to even broadcast for reps never mind lock someone else and provide them. Exercise in futility, 0 for 2 with CCP F.uck it up. First making mining worthless again and now this? Maybe you want to to try your luck at drawing pretty laserz in the graphics department, management might feel like they are getting something for that paycheck.
These will also be useful for repping other hulls than just other frigates. Currently in FW T2 logi cruisers can't get inside the most fought-over plexes, where these will be able to, and could be used to rep everything up to a T1 cruiser. Also these could be handy in a post-fight scenario repping the damage taken by frigates that did make it out of the fight.
As a lot of the time frigates that do survive a fight come away with structure damage, it might be worth considering giving logi frigs the ability to realistically consider fitting remote structure reps. Might be hard to balance the extra slot/fitting you'd need even with a large fitting bonus though. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
387
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:29:00 -
[109] - Quote
Shalassason wrote:Should make for an interesting change, but they really seem too similar.
Can't we have boni to cap transfers on the Amarr/Caldari versions ? As a stepping stone towards the cap chains of Guardians/Basilisks ?
Seriously? That would make the Inquisitor and Bantam useless. Drakes & Tengus online: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1208/fbaugust.jpg |

jsman99
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:30:00 -
[110] - Quote
I hardly use any of my frigates anymore even though I have the most fun flying them. This is great for bitter-vets and newbies alike for fast, easy, cheap pvp funtimez. +1 looking forward to this. |
|

McDarila
Lost Society Get Off My Lawn
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
Few of us in the alliance gamed it out. It is possable to put a med repper on the ship making it usable to rep large pos. I dont see a use for it out side of repping a pos while the main fleet fighting else where. It has no tank to speak of and there for unuseable even on our assult frig fleets. The ship is nothing but a kill mail waiting to happen in the logi role. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2751
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Shalassason wrote:Should make for an interesting change, but they really seem too similar.
Can't we have boni to cap transfers on the Amarr/Caldari versions ? As a stepping stone towards the cap chains of Guardians/Basilisks ?
Seriously? That would make the Inquisitor and Bantam useless.
I think he means in addition to. The problem I see here is again, wanting to be cautious with these new toys and not make them too overpowered. many have pointed out the need for neuts, ECM, etc in countering these, I'd hate to see more stable frig cap chains without a proper counter in more neuting ships. Who knows, we still have the E-war tech 1 frigates to go here.... Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Eli Grange
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
46
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:37:00 -
[113] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'm not going to rule out creating t2 versions of these someday, but the t1 versions are all that's coming for winter and t2 versions would be a somewhat more difficult balancing problem if we ever do them.
I'm going to make yet another suggestion for this thread
T2 logi = larger rep class (+smaller sig, better resists etc)
T1 logi frigates = small reps T2 logi frigates = medium reps
T1 logi cruiser = medium reps T2 logi cruiser = large reps |

AndromacheDarkstar
Fiscal Fisting Inc.
108
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:38:00 -
[114] - Quote
Best idea i hadnt even considered possible ever. This should make frigate roams a more common sight which makes pvp a little cheaper and a little easier to get into.
Combined with possible destroyer changes and lots of fun is on the horizon. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2752
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:38:00 -
[115] - Quote
McDarila wrote:Few of us in the alliance gamed it out. It is possable to put a med repper on the ship making it usable to rep large pos. I dont see a use for it out side of repping a pos while the main fleet fighting else where. It has no tank to speak of and there for unuseable even on our assult frig fleets. The ship is nothing but a kill mail waiting to happen in the logi role.
Those of us in FW will find a way to hotwire a kitchen sink and stay alive in it. Give us bailing wire, bubblegum, and some batteries and we'll find a way to blow each other up with it. I *GUARANTEE* you there will be groups that have some fun frig-gang to frig-gang lulz with these, even if they dont become a standard fleet doctrine.
And thats just it right? We dont WANT these to become essential from now on. But viable? Sure, these will see some use in RvB and FW situations, and some small gang roams here and there, and nothing wrong with that. Should mix things up. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
101
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:38:00 -
[116] - Quote
The new frigate fleets are going to be a ton of fun, nicely done CCP. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |

Alara IonStorm
3000
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:48:00 -
[117] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: 1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.
What is the cost of small faction reps?
Now I am sure you are going to give me a small number and say look how cheap that is but no one right now is using them. The Mackinaw increased massively in price while the Hulk decreased after the changes. As soon as these reps become useful there price will sky rocket.
They are not much more common then small complex reps and they cost 10-20mil for even cheap ones. Give an item a use and the price rises. |

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
749
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:55:00 -
[118] - Quote
Uranium 242 wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone. **** off with this elitist bullshit. Everyone needs more logistics support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall. That's exactly what I'm saying: everyone needs more hot-drop support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall. 14 |

Artimis kraw
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:55:00 -
[119] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.
They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).
I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.
An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.
This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships.
m8 +1 to everything Michael has said in this thread. This will be the death of solo frig pvp. This will be as bad as a falcon uncloaking when 2 BC's engage but in smaller, cheaper, less skill intensive form.
gg...
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1915
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:58:00 -
[120] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
This seems pretty reasonable and I like it a lot.
Quote: Inquisitor: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 2 M, 4 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 51 PWG, 135 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 225 / 500 / 330 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 400 / 200s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 1470000 / 4.95s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 700 / 7 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 34 Cargo capacity: 250
A few comments about the ships: - The fittings seem a bit low. I am concerned about being able to fit Prop mod, buffer, and a sufficient amount of remote repair. - I know you wanted them to be slow, but a 5 second align time? Jeeeeeeezee. - The mass seems pretty heavy. Frig fights are pretty fast moving affairs and I'm not sure that logi frigs would be able to keep up.
What do you say to two classes of logi frigs: - Amarr/Caldari: Heavy logi frigs (akin to AFs) expected to be in brawls - Minmatar/Gallente: Light logi frigs (akin to Inties) expected to be in kite gangs
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
749
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 16:59:00 -
[121] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed. But if there's a logi frigate it's no longer a 1v1, it's a 1v2. Add a second ship on the other side and the picture changes a lot (or swap the logi frigate for another Merlin and the picture stays pretty similar). You do realize there's a huge difference between that extra ship being a force multiplier (like logistic ship or recon) and yet another generic combat vessel, right 
You (CCP) thinking it's impossible to fight 1 vs 10+ doesn't mean it's indeed impossible. What makes it impossible are one-sided game 'features' like current ECM, damping, OP RRing etc. which allow those in superior numbers to render opposing ship(s) completely (!) useless. 14 |

Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
181
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:00:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:So these ships have a max rep range of 28.8km with T2 reps and are generally among the slowest of the tech one frigates Did you guys consider going for an even greater rep range and a slightly smaller cap and rep bonus instead?
|

Tribal Solidarity
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
32
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:01:00 -
[123] - Quote
Cannot wait. It's gonna be epic.
Please can we have a nice redesign of how the ships look to go with it? Make them look more Logistic-y... =X |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1915
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:04:00 -
[124] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?
I solo PVP frequently and I'm not afraid of this change. In fact, I'd say you're overlooking the change that is ACTUALLY going to make solo PVP hard.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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F4bske
Matari Exodus
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:05:00 -
[125] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I appreciate that they are slow and fragile but
1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.
2) Logi dont get +50% rep power, these do.
3) For PvE, the tank and speed on these is meaningless
4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin
Remove that 50% rep bonus and it should be fine, they just seem a bit to strong for the minimal skills they require to fly. Maybe slow them down a bit more and lower there locking range, so that you can outplay them with a Sensordamp(which needs more good targets) think that would be a nice way. I would love to see a T1 Frig gang of Merlins and Bantams  |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1916
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:07:00 -
[126] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I fear it makes soloing impossible. killing frig sized targets can be extremely hard. This forces you to kill them first, while they are tanking hundreds or thousands of applied dps
You are not actually applying thousands of DPS to a frigate. You aren't. They just don't have the EHP to deal with it. The problem you're experiencing is sig/tracking tanking.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Noisrevbus
204
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:09:00 -
[127] - Quote
As with most things lately, I am very torn...
Things like frigate gangs (and cloaky gangs) could be encouraged by enabling logistics options. At the same time the potential problems are numerous: It's a staggering problem that just more and more powerful tools are given to such affordable ships. It's styles that are already powerful or have existing options, even though it is not perhaps popular: for example, there are already creative groups who have discovered that Logistics Cruisers have small base-sigs and can easily be run dualpropped or (oversized-) AB, letting them run with frigate gangs under "frigate sigs".
Giving them the whole treatment Cruisers always had seem unlikely as well, since you appear to have abandoned that design principle (of making certain ships stepping stones, and let them come pre-nerfed; such as Logi-cruisers without cap-bonuses, which in turn are only available Tech II). That's obviously one way to do it, but it feels unlikely given your (CCP's) design trends of making "small and Tech I" viable on a broad level.
A more difficult interpretation is meta-game: Letting (Tech II-) Frigate gangs do what Cruiser gangs once did at cheaper cost on more numble hulls could provide an option inbetween larger heavier fleets (that the Cruisers of today have trouble measuring up to, when used right). That could possibly also bridge gaps and plug that dynamic, where a popularity in frigate-sized roaming gangs would open up a target pool for Cruiser equivalents again (food-chain, ecosystem, butterflies).
That involves such things trending though, and today the game is polarizing instead which leaves questions as to wether frigate-sized Logistics encouraging mobile gangs like that would be enough for it to take root. They would be more agile and cheaper options but at the same time they would not be as flexible, they would not have as broad target pools and they would equally not have a more target rich environment to begin with. That make them gimmicks and only emphasize current trends where small ships and gangs do their thing and large gangs do their thing (so the best course of roaming is to look for ganks, peers and evasion). |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1916
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:09:00 -
[128] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:aoeu Itonula wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Force multipliers as strong as logi should not be on throwaway disposable hulls You mean like EAFs? Let's be frank here, with the cost of a full t2/deadspace fit, the difference between a fully fit t1 frig and fully fit t2 frig is negligible. unlike eaf ewar remote reps stack infinitely. There is no reason to not spam these ships and b put every single new player in one
They do not scale infinitely. A frigate with 300 shield HP and 60% resists can tank no more than 750 evenly applied DPS. Even if they have 1000000000000000 logi frigates repping them. When you start talking about actual applied DPS, it's much closer to 200-300 before things just start volleying through shields.
It's one thing to be against the change, it's another to just make **** up.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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TheWarpGhost
1st Steps Academy Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:14:00 -
[129] - Quote
*Sigh*
I would rather you got T1 "logistics cruisers" right before you even consider haring off making a NEW logistics ship. It's not like logi isn't already detrimental to solo and small gang warfare, and that's hard enough to engage in and teach as it is!
And it's not just about the actual fighting, but the perception too. One line of high-SP T2 Logi are a pretty big disincentive to engage already when you see or suspect them, now we are staring down 3 lines. We need to encourage people to take the plunge, not create more ways and excuses to discourage them.
If this doesn't work, you're wasting your effort, and if it does you're wasting our time. Frigate PvP is already a bit of a high-wire act and if it works this just swings it further one way or the other. |

Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
181
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:17:00 -
[130] - Quote
TheWarpGhost wrote:*Sigh*
I would rather you got T1 "logistics cruisers" right before you even consider haring off making a NEW logistics ship. It's not like logi isn't already detrimental to solo and small gang warfare, and that's hard enough to engage in and teach as it is!
I would have liked frig size logi to be on a destroyer platform, but I'm glad we're getting new toys even so
|
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Peter Tjordenskiold
20
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:20:00 -
[131] - Quote
I like the base of the idea very much, but not the weapons, because it's breaking the idea to field more than 1 shiptype. I can already imagine swarms of logi frig fleets. |

LilRemmy
Synaptic Void AAA Citizens
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:21:00 -
[132] - Quote
I like it, make it so. |

Hoshisuuvi
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
69
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:24:00 -
[133] - Quote
Very happy to see this as (so far) the T1 frig re-balancing has been a great boon for these underused hulls. Makes FW much more interesting. |

Cahvus
Confederated Armed Traders High Rollers
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:40:00 -
[134] - Quote
Every time you post I like you even more Fozzie! One thing though, I think the rep range for logi frigs is even more important for them compared to their cruiser counterparts. Consider the following:
In almost any cruiser size or larger fleet, the logi will be faster than or at least equal to the ships they are repping. On top of that their ~70 km rep range allows them to be in rep range of anything on grid and if not they have the speed to burn into range and start reps.
Now look at the logi frigs. Since they most certainly will have to monitor cap, they will be less likely to be able to run a constant prop mod, meaning the target of their reps (almost exclusively frigs) will be going much faster than them. Now this combined with the intentionally smaller rep range will mean thst either the logi or the person needing reps will have to burn towards each other, something that takes time, a resource most frigs under fire don't have.
IMHO I think rep range is even more crucial for logi frigs than their cruiser counterparts. Their smaller rep range will either cause fcs to require that people form frig trains (aka Rohktrains) or they will need to have sniper frig fleets, something that isnt feasable with the current state of small artillery / rail gun /etc weaponry.
Otherwise I completely love and support this idea! |

Korvus Falek
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:42:00 -
[135] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
I like this as it will be a wall that many new Amarr pilots wont want to climb to fly the Vengeance (cross training lasers to missiles). Less people flying my ship of choice is a good thing. Id never fly the t1 rocket version of the Vengeance anyways.   |

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
If people are concerned about them suddenly making things like merlins into totalhelldeath, bear in mind that the logi frigs will be big and slow (as frigs go) and have T1 resists. Not exactly indestructible. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |

Windle Poons
Ankh-Morpork City Watch
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:54:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Let us know what you think!
Why do three races lose their mining frigate but Amarr lose their missile frigate?
It should be the tormentor, the fact that it's all ready been turned into the punisher mk2 hints at a complete lack of forethought for these changes.
Oh yey won't EVE be fun when everything is the same. We can't have one damn frigate that's different from all the rest can we!
I await the Abaddon becoming the logistics BS. |

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
803
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 17:54:00 -
[138] - Quote
I think the major issue with these is balancing between actually useful and almost completely useless in live situations.
I see these as throw-away logistics for newer pilots to get into the role. However, as you say in situations you want to "solo" the logi frigates makes these a perceived deterrent to solo fighting because they're so expendable. But really, for solo fights, I see these more like a "****"/"**** you" maneuver to **** with solo pilots' heads, than actually being a solo deterrent.
If I had to sit down and say... what am I going to bring today as my alt back up? a logi frigate would probably be pretty low on the list. And by the point you're trying to counter the logi ANYTHING in a solo situation, you've already got a 2v2 happening. Any solo pilot worth his salt never expects a fair fight... so whether it's a dirt cheap frigate, a t1 logi cruiser or a T2 Guardian/Carrier. You have to plan for it, and really, for the "Solo" pilot, he's not exactly going to have a counter for ANY of those available. It does make for a nice fast response, cheap and dirty logistics ships though. Which seems perfect.
Major downside is it makes high sec neutral logistics a cheap dirty expendable maneuver now though. But I hear you might be trying to resolve that in the near future with Crimewatch.
I think I like it. I don't really have the time to sit down and take the stats apart, I'm sure some other people are doing a good job of it already. Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:05:00 -
[139] - Quote
Stumpet Rakingclaw wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:...Everyone needs more logistics support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall. This.
bah your test i cant agree...
but
this!
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1918
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:06:00 -
[140] - Quote
Windle Poons wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Let us know what you think! Why do three races lose their mining frigate but Amarr lose their missile frigate? It should be the tormentor, the fact that it's all ready been turned into the punisher mk2 hints at a complete lack of forethought for these changes. Oh yey won't EVE be fun when everything is the same. We can't have one damn frigate that's different from all the rest can we! I await the Abaddon becoming the logistics BS.
Amarr lost their missile frigate? And nothing of value was lost.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:10:00 -
[141] - Quote
Eli Grange wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:I'm not going to rule out creating t2 versions of these someday, but the t1 versions are all that's coming for winter and t2 versions would be a somewhat more difficult balancing problem if we ever do them. I'm going to make yet another suggestion for this thread T2 logi = larger rep class (+smaller sig, better resists etc) T1 logi frigates = small reps T2 logi frigates = medium reps T1 logi cruiser = medium reps T2 logi cruiser = large reps
tbh i want to see the large reps taken away from tech II logi sihps...
it gives them WAY! too much scaleability for a ship that size...
i would much rather see a new BS added to the game... that used large RR... that would make sense as they have very large sig radius to start with... so with thier ability to rep would come with thier ability to die!
I would even like to see a tech II version logi BS thats used with the target breaker mod... its tech II bonus would reduce the side effects when the mod is active... (this would help counter the blob for smaller gangs) Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:12:00 -
[142] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed. But if there's a logi frigate it's no longer a 1v1, it's a 1v2. Add a second ship on the other side and the picture changes a lot (or swap the logi frigate for another Merlin and the picture stays pretty similar). You do realize there's a huge difference between that extra ship being a force multiplier (like logistic ship or recon) and yet another generic combat vessel, right  You (CCP) thinking it's impossible to fight 1 vs 10+ doesn't mean it's indeed impossible. What makes it impossible are one-sided game 'features' like current ECM, damping, OP RRing etc. which allow those in superior numbers to render opposing ship(s) completely (!) useless.
indeed at some point there needs to be diminishing returns for attacking and rr...
that way you would have to be smarter about target selection and would make a fight more like a RL battle with its chaoticness... and added epicness... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
166
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:13:00 -
[143] - Quote
I would have preferred an Electronic Support frigate that gave remote ECCM and Remote SeBo's etc and a destroyer sized logistics hull.
Guess the future is small and fast ships in large swarms |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:13:00 -
[144] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder? I solo PVP frequently and I'm not afraid of this change. In fact, I'd say you're overlooking the change that is ACTUALLY going to make solo PVP hard. -Liang
you mean the ewar frigs?
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1918
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:14:00 -
[145] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:tbh i want to see the large reps taken away from tech II logi sihps... it gives them WAY! too much scaleability for a ship that size... i would much rather see a new BS added to the game... that used large RR... that would make sense as they have very large sig radius to start with... so with thier ability to rep would come with thier ability to die!  I would even like to see a tech II version logi BS thats used with the target breaker mod... its tech II bonus would reduce the side effects when the mod is active... (this would help counter the blob for smaller gangs)
So you'd need 2-3 Logis repping one guy to sustain him under a single medium DPS BC? I guess removing effective logistics from the game is one way to go about it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1918
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:15:00 -
[146] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder? I solo PVP frequently and I'm not afraid of this change. In fact, I'd say you're overlooking the change that is ACTUALLY going to make solo PVP hard. -Liang you mean the ewar frigs?
The Crucifier, in particular, is going to **** everyone.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:17:00 -
[147] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:I would have preferred an Electronic Support frigate that gave remote ECCM and Remote SeBo's etc
Guess the future is small and fast ships in large swarms
tbh put the remote eccm and remote sebos on a tech II logi frig!
that with tech II resists would make these things key for thier larger brothers! i.e free up some slots for other types of mods...
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:19:00 -
[148] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:MeBiatch wrote:tbh i want to see the large reps taken away from tech II logi sihps... it gives them WAY! too much scaleability for a ship that size... i would much rather see a new BS added to the game... that used large RR... that would make sense as they have very large sig radius to start with... so with thier ability to rep would come with thier ability to die!  I would even like to see a tech II version logi BS thats used with the target breaker mod... its tech II bonus would reduce the side effects when the mod is active... (this would help counter the blob for smaller gangs) So you'd need 2-3 Logis repping one guy to sustain him under a single medium DPS BC? I guess removing effective logistics from the game is one way to go about it. -Liang
you know i would not mind the meidum remote reps getting an increase in rep amount per lev to help out logi curisers II... but IMO the range of Large reps is whats making them OP...
but having large reps on a bs sized ship would be OK for me because of the many disadvantages of bs sized ships... large sig radius... slow... bad agility... terribad locking time... and so on... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Malice Duivels
Pod Reprocessing LLC.
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:25:00 -
[149] - Quote
Arguing about balancing is pretty moot. Everything has a counter.. whether it's widely used or practical is the only real discussion to have. The ship rebalancing being about 12% complete renders the whole "practical or widely used" portion of my previous statement grounds to just stfu and wait.
Complaining about another challenge to solo warfare is silly. Solo is fun because it IS a challenge.
In the upcoming changes.. t1 logi cruisers would be sweet. Hope it's given consideration.
The only tragedy I see is yet again another homogenization of the races. i.e. the difference in flying Minnie vs. Caldari equates to a few very minor differences. I understand it makes it easier to balance.. but that doesn't make it better. On that same note.. Nidhogguring the minmatar logistics would be unfortunate.
Perhaps a sharper mind than mine has a better solution on how to provide a considerably more pronounced difference in the race's ships. |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2754
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:26:00 -
[150] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying: everyone needs more hot-drop support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.
I can't wait to hot drop fools in my Burst, good thing they included those jump dri--- OH WAIT Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1926
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: you know i would not mind the meidum remote reps getting an increase in rep amount per lev to help out logi curisers II... but IMO the range of Large reps is whats making them OP...
but having large reps on a bs sized ship would be OK for me because of the many disadvantages of bs sized ships... large sig radius... slow... bad agility... terribad locking time... and so on...
Your idea would ultimately just remove long range logistics from the game. The fallout would be that kiting in a logistics ship would become impossible and so would long range RR. Furthermore, battleship sized logis would never be used for a tremendous number of reasons. So really, the game would just be worse off for no good reason.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1926
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:32:00 -
[152] - Quote
Malice Duivels wrote: On that same note.. Nidhogguring the minmatar logistics would be unfortunate.
You know what irritates the **** out of me? Pretty much everyone I've talked to would rather have an Archon with Carrier 3, RR4, and T1 triage than a Nidhoggur with Carrier 5, RR5, T2 Triage, Compensations 5, etc (totally max skilled). It needs to have a local rep bonus to go along with that sweet sweet RR bonus or it's just so ******* useless as a triage carrier.
And triage is the one place I feel like I'd reasonably expect the capitals of the small gang focused race to be good at.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

C DeLeon
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
35
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:36:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Fozzie: What do you think about that ?  |

Sard Caid
Gunpoint Diplomacy
46
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:42:00 -
[154] - Quote
Sounds solid. |

Makalu Zarya
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
58
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:49:00 -
[155] - Quote
t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:55:00 -
[156] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:MeBiatch wrote: you know i would not mind the meidum remote reps getting an increase in rep amount per lev to help out logi curisers II... but IMO the range of Large reps is whats making them OP...
but having large reps on a bs sized ship would be OK for me because of the many disadvantages of bs sized ships... large sig radius... slow... bad agility... terribad locking time... and so on...
Your idea would ultimately just remove long range logistics from the game. The fallout would be that kiting in a logistics ship would become impossible and so would long range RR. Furthermore, battleship sized logis would never be used for a tremendous number of reasons. So really, the game would just be worse off for no good reason. -Liang
edit correction for misreading...
as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?
the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...
so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!
also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard of... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Cahvus
Confederated Armed Traders High Rollers
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:56:00 -
[157] - Quote
Makalu Zarya wrote:t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap
Oh makalu xD
Maybe if you had some better logi you wouldn't die so much :p
But all innocent joking aside, why not? They are cheap enough for noobs and let newbros do useful things for fleets. Plus frigate fleets are always fun and now, they get effective logi too! |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
262
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 18:58:00 -
[158] - Quote
Sard Caid wrote:Sounds solid.
Seriously Sard?
This change fucks you more than anyone. How well can your raven kill a frigate, let alone 2 frigates with staggered small reps on each other? |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1926
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:00:00 -
[159] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: well no 1 ccp already said they want cruisers to be faster and more agile... so they will end up being nano any ways...
as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?
the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...
so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!
also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard off... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...
So, the thing about it is that 20km of RR range is a really big deal, especially given the fact that they're cruisers. The simple fact of the matter is that fights involving kiting can be really spread out (100s of km) and a Logi is expected to be everywhere... all the time. Furthermore, logistics don't need a RR amount nerf - as it stands a 3 RR Scimitar is not going to keep up a BC against another BC.
And ultimately, the problem you're concerned about (RR BS disappearance) has absolutely nothing to do with logistics ships. They weren't even boosted around that time. What you're seeing is the effect of BOMBS and SUPERCARRIERS. Bringing RR BS is asking to lose your entire fleet to 4 bombers.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:06:00 -
[160] - Quote
so you are saying a rig to increase range of RR would be fine? cool...
pretty sure logis were boosted before we saw the death of moms...
and who is complaining about bombing fleets... they are the best anti blob tool we have... tbh...
and hell man i would like to see more use of internal reps to make up for the short commings up rr... so having an asb on that nano ship would help it survive untill it gets in range of those scimis... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
|

Cahvus
Confederated Armed Traders High Rollers
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:11:00 -
[161] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:MeBiatch wrote: well no 1 ccp already said they want cruisers to be faster and more agile... so they will end up being nano any ways...
as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?
the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...
so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!
also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard off... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...
So, the thing about it is that 20km of RR range is a really big deal, especially given the fact that they're cruisers. The simple fact of the matter is that fights involving kiting can be really spread out (100s of km) and a Logi is expected to be everywhere... all the time. Furthermore, logistics don't need a RR amount nerf - as it stands a 3 RR Scimitar is not going to keep up a BC against another BC. And ultimately, the problem you're concerned about (RR BS disappearance) has absolutely nothing to do with logistics ships. They weren't even boosted around that time. What you're seeing is the effect of BOMBS and SUPERCARRIERS. Bringing RR BS is asking to lose your entire fleet to 4 bombers. -Liang
In addition to what Liang said I think range is even MORE important for frig gangs than for the current logis. The current logi ships are faster and more agile than most of the ships they will be repping. They have great range (71km for my badly skilled scimi) and plus they have the speed to burn towards anyone out of range, enabling them to effectively rep most anyone on grid.
In comparison, with the ~28ish max range for frigs you are setting them up for failure. Logi frigs will obviously only be mainly used for frigate gangs, and combined with the speed and tank (or lack thereof) of frigates, having a larger range seems MORE important to these new frigates than to their Cruiser counterparts. In addition, most frigates speed tank, meaning more spread out fleets of frigates and often it seems they may end up being faster than the logi ships.
Does this not sound like it would be a problem? |

MJ Incognito
Bad Teachers En Garde
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:14:00 -
[162] - Quote
Logistics ships need to be cut back on power, not improved. I agree that extending fights is nice... but it's way to easy for one side to become nearly unbreakable especially in this counter fleet world of eve and it makes it miserable gameplay.
If you intend to continue to add more logistics options to game, you need to first take a look at the impacts of the horrible implications of fleet combat.
Right now, just with the cruisers, one tech 2 logistic cruiser can outrepair anywhere from 5-10 battleships worth of damage. That's horrible from a mechanical standpoint because it scales horribly wrong for specific sides. There's a depleted value when an enemy fleet of 80 with 20 logistics can out repair a fleet of 100-200 battleships worth of firepower. Even if you manage to provide the 10-20 specifically set up ewar ships to counter it (again, doesn't scale due to eve counter fleeting) the logistics themselves can counter fit to make it highly ineffective to waste those ship options. You're asking the other side to reduce their dps, and still suffer from an inferior counter. How does that make sense.
These frigates are basically another step towards that direction with smaller ship classes. With 2 small t2 shield transporters, a frigate will be able to repair somewhere in the range of 1500 ehp per cycle which means somewhere close to 500 dps countered with just 1 frigate and 1 gang link ship.
There should be some sort of counter to omni racial logistics besides basically 1 type of ewar-warfare that is highly race and skill specific, and does not scale effectively the way logistics do.
I really hope you consider that PvP is not fun for the "other side" when logistics are spammed and that it really is a one sided affair in game. At least back before logistics were uber powerful, there was some fun in the fact that fleet skill, and not logistics spam counted for far more value.
Personally, I'd rather see a communications jamming module added to game as a Viable option for counter logistics that basically either prevents or delays broadcasting, thus requiring more skill and tactical know-how from logistics ships in large fleets.
*in before the faggots spam stupid arguments to counter this. |

Felter Echerie
The James Gang Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:16:00 -
[163] - Quote
what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :( |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1110

|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:19:00 -
[164] - Quote
Felter Echerie wrote:what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :(
The Tristan became a drone boat instead. |
|

Cahvus
Confederated Armed Traders High Rollers
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:25:00 -
[165] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Felter Echerie wrote:what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :( The Tristan became a drone boat instead.
Could we get some sort of comment on rep range Fozzie? If you want a detailed rationale, look at my post on page 7 or at the top of this page! |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1111

|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:34:00 -
[166] - Quote
If we find that the range isn't enough it is open to possible changes after we roll out the testing. But I don't really want them to be able to sit so far away that catching them becomes extremely difficult.
Putting them right on the edge of longpoint and heavy neut range was intentional. |
|

Mizhir
Club Bear
75
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:34:00 -
[167] - Quote
Makalu Zarya wrote:t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap
Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets?
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:43:00 -
[168] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Makalu Zarya wrote:t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets?
indeed i just had an argument with liang who forgot about wh space and high sec as a reason not to bring RR in line... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1928
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:43:00 -
[169] - Quote
MJ Incognito wrote: Right now, just with the cruisers, one tech 2 logistic cruiser can outrepair anywhere from 5-10 battleships worth of damage.
In order for this to be true, you would need a Guardian with 6 LRAR IIs repping someone with a large HP buffer and 96% for their LOWEST resist. What I tend to see is that a 4-5 rep Scim/Basi is going to keep a Battlecruiser up against exactly one battleship if and only if you have an off grid Tengu boosting.
Otherwise that BC is going to die.
Quote:*in before the faggots spam stupid arguments to counter this.
It's not stupid to point out that you're just making **** up.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:44:00 -
[170] - Quote
Cahvus wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:MeBiatch wrote: well no 1 ccp already said they want cruisers to be faster and more agile... so they will end up being nano any ways...
as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?
the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...
so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!
also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard off... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...
So, the thing about it is that 20km of RR range is a really big deal, especially given the fact that they're cruisers. The simple fact of the matter is that fights involving kiting can be really spread out (100s of km) and a Logi is expected to be everywhere... all the time. Furthermore, logistics don't need a RR amount nerf - as it stands a 3 RR Scimitar is not going to keep up a BC against another BC. And ultimately, the problem you're concerned about (RR BS disappearance) has absolutely nothing to do with logistics ships. They weren't even boosted around that time. What you're seeing is the effect of BOMBS and SUPERCARRIERS. Bringing RR BS is asking to lose your entire fleet to 4 bombers. -Liang In addition to what Liang said I think range is even MORE important for frig gangs than for the current logis. The current logi ships are faster and more agile than most of the ships they will be repping. They have great range (71km for my badly skilled scimi) and plus they have the speed to burn towards anyone out of range, enabling them to effectively rep most anyone on grid. In comparison, with the ~28ish max range for frigs you are setting them up for failure. Logi frigs will obviously only be mainly used for frigate gangs, and combined with the speed and tank (or lack thereof) of frigates, having a larger range seems MORE important to these new frigates than to their Cruiser counterparts. In addition, most frigates speed tank, meaning more spread out fleets of frigates and often it seems they may end up being faster than the logi ships. Does this not sound like it would be a problem?
no if you are out of range of rr use an interal rep... thats what they are there for ffs... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1928
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:44:00 -
[171] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:If we find that the range isn't enough it is open to possible changes after we roll out the testing. But I don't really want them to be able to sit so far away that catching them becomes extremely difficult.
Putting them right on the edge of longpoint and heavy neut range was intentional.
Putting them in heavy neut range without the slots for a cap booster is kinda mean. ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1929
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:46:00 -
[172] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Mizhir wrote:Makalu Zarya wrote:t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets? indeed i just had an argument with liang who forgot about wh space and high sec as a reason not to bring RR in line...
No, you had an argument where you presented terrible reasoning for a terrible nerf. I proceded to destroy your reasoning and now you're just making **** up. And in case it has escaped your attention, I've spent 2.5 of the last 3 years living in wormholes. I might just know something about it. 
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
527
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:50:00 -
[173] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Mizhir wrote:Makalu Zarya wrote:t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap Have you considered the thought that not everything in this game is designed for (bitter) nullsec vets? indeed i just had an argument with liang who forgot about wh space and high sec as a reason not to bring RR in line... No, you had an argument where you presented terrible reasoning for a terrible nerf. I proceded to destroy your reasoning and now you're just making **** up. And in case it has escaped your attention, I've spent 2.5 of the last 3 years living in wormholes. I might just know something about it.  -Liang
right so thats why you chose to use supercarriers as an example... how good are they in wh space again? or bombs in high sec...
its not a terrible idea... its a great one... one that you PERSONALLY dont agree with... and to this i would suggest how about we just agree to not agree because neither of us is going to convince the other that thier ideas are wrong... but hopefully we have presented reasonable arguments that ccp then can use in internal convos to better enhance the game... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:50:00 -
[174] - Quote
So it's looking like FW will become even worse after the winter expansion. Griffins and logistics everywhere, no fun allowed. |

MJ Incognito
Bad Teachers En Garde
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:53:00 -
[175] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:MJ Incognito wrote: Right now, just with the cruisers, one tech 2 logistic cruiser can outrepair anywhere from 5-10 battleships worth of damage.
In order for this to be true, you would need a Guardian with 6 LRAR IIs repping someone with a large HP buffer and 96% for their LOWEST resist. What I tend to see is that a 4-5 rep Scim/Basi is going to keep a Battlecruiser up against exactly one battleship if and only if you have an off grid Tengu boosting. Otherwise that BC is going to die. Quote:*in before the faggots spam stupid arguments to counter this. It's not stupid to point out that you're just making **** up. -Liang
******** arguement number 1... check.
You can just look to the alliance tournament as proof of reality versus theory. You only need 3-4 large repairer and gang bonuses to do massive **** tons of reps. First of all, not everyone is a maxed out implanted dps pilot. Secondly, most BS don't go above about 900 dps in optimal close range practically and fights under those conditions rarely if ever happen. Third if you look at most fleet comps in game these days, they all center around resistance based t2/t3 fleets, or resistance bonused t1 fleets (drake, rokh, abaddon).
So my statement is true beyond your apparently clumsy eft faggotry math. |

Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 19:59:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;) Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better. So you are saying we won't get to see a Tech 1 Khanid Kingdom ship for Amarr?
|
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1114

|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:04:00 -
[177] - Quote
Vakr Onzo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;) Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better. So you are saying we won't get to see a Tech 1 Khanid Kingdom ship for Amarr?
We don't have any plans to release tech one ships made by the tech two ship producers.
Khanid faction ships would be cool, maybe someday. |
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1934
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:17:00 -
[178] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote: right so thats why you chose to use supercarriers as an example... how good are they in wh space again? or bombs in high sec...
So, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a RR BS fleet in high sec. If you could find someone to fight with it, I have no doubt that the old master plan setups would work marvelously. In WH space, RR BS is difficult because of mass constraints and dangerous because of bombs. In low sec, RR BS has traditionally been just asking for a Supercap drop - but it might just work out these days. If you could find anyone to fight. In null sec, you're asking to get bombed.
So really, the disappearance of RRBS had literally nothing to do with Logistics. AND FURTHERMORE, Logistics were not buffed around the time that RRBS disappeared.
Quote: its not a terrible idea... its a great one... one that you PERSONALLY dont agree with... and using t3 bc is kinda cold as they have terribad HP and die easy... and to this i would suggest how about we just agree to not agree because neither of us is going to convince the other that thier ideas are wrong... but hopefully we have presented reasonable arguments that ccp then can use in internal convos to better enhance the game...
Fine. But do try not to talk **** for no apparent reason.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1934
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:20:00 -
[179] - Quote
MJ Incognito wrote: ******** arguement number 1... check.
You can just look to the alliance tournament as proof of reality versus theory. You only need 3-4 large repairer and gang bonuses to do massive **** tons of reps. First of all, not everyone is a maxed out implanted dps pilot. Secondly, most BS don't go above about 900 dps in optimal close range practically and fights under those conditions rarely if ever happen. Third if you look at most fleet comps in game these days, they all center around resistance based t2/t3 fleets, or resistance bonused t1 fleets (drake, rokh, abaddon), and range above 50km... again, factoring into the reasonable damage calcs for BS pilots.... 900 dps isn't going to happen at that range.
There are not 10-15 battleships duking it out in the alliance tournament. In fact, the fact that ANYTHING died in the alliance tournament is proof positive that your argument is just flat wrong.
Quote: When you start adding in the counter BS fleets, which are almost always low sig, AB fleets of some sort, their dps falls further off a cliff in most scenarios. Again requiring yet more ways to counter the logistics problem alone rather than having more reasonable counters.
This is an example of sig tanking. It's like saying that a shuttle can tank 1000000 titans of DPS. It's just not true and it's a perfect example of why damage application is what actually matters.
Quote:So my statement is true beyond your apparently clumsy eft faggotry math.
No, it isn't.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1934
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:21:00 -
[180] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:So it's looking like FW will become even worse after the winter expansion. Griffins and logistics everywhere, no fun allowed.
I wouldn't worry about Griffins. Worry about Crucifiers. A new Crucifier will be able to take a Scorch Geddon to a 500m optimal.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|

Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:25:00 -
[181] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We don't have any plans to release tech one ships made by the tech two ship producers.
Khanid faction ships would be cool, maybe someday.
I don't mean something like that. Inquisitor showed the new pilots that Amarr has a small line of ships that used rocket/missile weaponry. This way they can decide if they want to start branching off from the Laser Gunnery training toward Rocketry training after trying out the 'rocket' frigate for themselves. |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
259
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:25:00 -
[182] - Quote
Whoot!
Good to see not all the wall-o-texts generated by the FW crowd the past four plus years has gone unnoticed .. logi frigs has been a desired hull since the war began (would have wanted FW to be fixed though, but beggars ... ).
As for the ships: What is the reasoning for the silly cap use bonus? Frigate bouts rarely last in excess of two minutes and everyone know that if you have ammo in your barrels and juice in your capacitor when you pop then you just didn't want that ship!
My idea, was and is, to have look and feel like combat frigates that were refurbished to fill a need in the armed forces; - Give each two (or three) weapon slots of racial type. - Double the amount repped bonus, makes it an even 100% at lvl5 .. Smalls will in effect rep as much as a Medium. - Replace cap bonus with a racial damage (or RoF) bonus.
Avoids creating a one-trick pony which is I believe contrary to current design philosophy (T2 = focused, T1 = generic, T3 = TBA). Avoids having logi frigs being only flown by alts/dual-box characters as they will have nothing to do at all. Shifts the planned rep-over-duration-of-fight towards the front end of the fights (where it matters, see avg. frig fright duration above), with cap becoming an issue if it drags on. |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:30:00 -
[183] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:So it's looking like FW will become even worse after the winter expansion. Griffins and logistics everywhere, no fun allowed. I wouldn't worry about Griffins. Worry about Crucifiers. A new Crucifier will be able to take a Scorch Geddon to a 500m optimal. -Liang
Tracking disruptors have always been really great, we just have to hope people don't figure this out. Also I don't think my tristan will care much about crucifiers. |

Zed Jackelope
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:32:00 -
[184] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.
.... two things, no three
first, eve isn't balanced around 1v1
second, that's not a 1v1 scenario
third, biomass yourself /ingame |

Bryant21
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:33:00 -
[185] - Quote
Will we get T2 variants of these ships? I know the shaders are already in place to do so, this could also allow a potential new skill line to train as well. |

Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
263
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:34:00 -
[186] - Quote
Zed Jackelope wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed. .... two things, no three first, eve isn't balanced around 1v1 second, that's not a 1v1 scenario third, biomass yourself /ingame
So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate? |

MJ Incognito
Bad Teachers En Garde
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:40:00 -
[187] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:MJ Incognito wrote: ******** arguement number 1... check.
You can just look to the alliance tournament as proof of reality versus theory. You only need 3-4 large repairer and gang bonuses to do massive **** tons of reps. First of all, not everyone is a maxed out implanted dps pilot. Secondly, most BS don't go above about 900 dps in optimal close range practically and fights under those conditions rarely if ever happen. Third if you look at most fleet comps in game these days, they all center around resistance based t2/t3 fleets, or resistance bonused t1 fleets (drake, rokh, abaddon), and range above 50km... again, factoring into the reasonable damage calcs for BS pilots.... 900 dps isn't going to happen at that range.
There are not 10-15 battleships duking it out in the alliance tournament. In fact, the fact that ANYTHING died in the alliance tournament is proof positive that your argument is just flat wrong.
No, it isn't.
-Liang[/quote]
Are you so ******** as to say that 1 logistics is able to prevent an entire group of ships from dieing? no, 1 logistic can be killed, which is why my entire arguement surrounds scaling you ******** *******. My point about the tournament was how fights where the SOLO logistic wasn't targeted first showed massive tanking of 3 highly speced cr bs fits, or multiple command ships. Any normal fight won't see such ideal conditions for the offensive side as that tournament showed, and yet the logistics were still highly powerful.
The problem is, there's hardly a counter for logistics, and it wrecks combat to know that you can regularly design nearly unbreakable setups in this game. This game was far better off when logistics weren't so ******* retardedly strong.
Nobody in this game finds it fun when the other side is unbreakable... it just leads to fights that take way too long to decide, for hardly any real action. |

Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
100
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:41:00 -
[188] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?
Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?
Are you new to eve? |

Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 20:45:00 -
[189] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:Michael Harari wrote: So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?
Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?
Are you new to eve?
Apparently, the end is near. |

Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
315
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:28:00 -
[190] - Quote
BTW who want to fly with frigs against Supercapitals ? CCP u missed something and live in the stone age ? Make useable ship, dont make crap ship classes again. |
|

Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
125
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:28:00 -
[191] - Quote
T2 Variant PL0X.
TY. Rabble Rabble!! Don't mind me. I just enjoy crapping all over the forums and laughing at the people who take it too seriously. |

Deena Amaj
Community for Justice Resurrection by Election
29
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 21:29:00 -
[192] - Quote
Quote:The problem is, there's hardly a counter for logistics, and it wrecks combat to know that you can regularly design nearly unbreakable setups in this game. This game was far better off when logistics weren't so ******* retardedly strong.
I agree somewhat. But it is not just the logistics ships as there are several other ships that are far worse. Not to mention ASB on top of all, though that is another topic.
However, I was always under the impression that one could rely on Ewar or even Dampening; to some extent. confirthisposmed
Yes. I'm a writer. And I'm a writer. |

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
136
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:05:00 -
[193] - Quote
Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's. |

Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
234
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:17:00 -
[194] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder? You think a combat frig isn't going to get the better of a logi frig in a 1 vs 1.
Or do some of you have trouble with really basic math. 2 vs 1 isn't 1 vs 1.
As a manufacturer this a huge buff. |

BBQ FTW
The Hatchery Team Liquid
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:23:00 -
[195] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Zed Jackelope wrote:Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed. .... two things, no three first, eve isn't balanced around 1v1 second, that's not a 1v1 scenario third, biomass yourself /ingame So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate? Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates? Of course, numbers should always solely dictate who wins a fight, after all, that is balanced.
What, do you think that piloting ability should actually matter in any fight? Don't be silly. |

Lili Lu
351
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:37:00 -
[196] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:So does this mean you're gonna make armor reps start at the beginning of the cycle? Because 5 seconds is a long time to wait for a rep to land in a frigate.
Got to page 4 and saw no response to this Fozzie. While conceptually I like a tech I logi frigate and an improved tech I logi cruiser, you really need to rethink some of the current mechanics in the game. Having the remote armor reps take 5 seconds after lock forces more and bigger plates on armor frigs. This in turn reduces their mobility even more. Just another scenario of reinforcing the supremacy of shield kiting ships in the game (here at the frigate level). |

Praetor Abre-Kai
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
30
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:38:00 -
[197] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.
Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.
Well that wouldn't be a 1v1 situation now would it? People will find a way to break it this gives players a way to get their feet wet when it comes to being a logi bro with out a ridiculously long train. |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1122

|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:50:00 -
[198] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Tomytronic wrote:So does this mean you're gonna make armor reps start at the beginning of the cycle? Because 5 seconds is a long time to wait for a rep to land in a frigate. Got to page 4 and saw no response to this Fozzie. While conceptually I like a tech I logi frigate and an improved tech I logi cruiser, you really need to rethink some of the current mechanics in the game. Having the remote armor reps take 5 seconds after lock forces more and bigger plates on armor frigs. This in turn reduces their mobility even more. Just another scenario of reinforcing the supremacy of shield kiting ships in the game (here at the frigate level). 
Not going to rule out decreasing the cycle time of remote armor reps, but I also don't want to commit to anything at this point. They are already faster than small armor reps, but it's possible we may decide to tweak them a bit as part of this balance pass. |
|

Jiska Ensa
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 22:56:00 -
[199] - Quote
Call me nostalgic but I would have loved to see the Navitas made into the drone boat. It just looks so awesome, especially alongside the Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. The Tristan never looked very Gallente to me. I don't suppose you're willing to swap the models around, but maintain the same stats? You did it once with the Helios :) |

mkint
878
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 23:03:00 -
[200] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:Call me nostalgic but I would have loved to see the Navitas made into the drone boat. It just looks so awesome, especially alongside the Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. The Tristan never looked very Gallente to me. I don't suppose you're willing to swap the models around, but maintain the same stats? You did it once with the Helios :) Agreed. Navitas has the bulging forehead of the vex and domi. Tristan has the flat face of the exquror. |
|

Lili Lu
351
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 23:04:00 -
[201] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's. And this Fozzie. More current in-game mechanics that comibined with these new logi frigates will favor shield tanking even more, yet again. In a frig fight the frig shield logi will not care about the sig hit from their rigs. The mobility hits on armor frigs and frig armor logi will be heavily felt.
edit- and what time is it in Iceland atm? Seems you are at work sorta late. But I thank you for it.
Anyway, please consider that a lot of the rebalancing you are doing at this time does not appear to be fixing current imbalances brought about by racial straightjacket theories, and in fact may make the imbalances more pronounced. Armor and the armor races are in arather bad state atm. I recall hearing some talk about reducing or changing the penalties on plates and armor rigs. I'm wondering if you all care about the imbalances brought on by the new ASBs. Please don't just focus on ship stats/bonuses and remain cogniscent of how they interact with old and new mods in the game. |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1935
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 23:14:00 -
[202] - Quote
MJ Incognito wrote: Are you so ******** as to say that 1 logistics is able to prevent an entire group of ships from dieing? no, 1 logistic can be killed, which is why my entire arguement surrounds scaling you ******** *******. My point about the tournament was how fights where the SOLO logistic wasn't targeted first showed massive tanking of 3 highly speced cr bs fits, or multiple command ships. Any normal fight won't see such ideal conditions for the offensive side as that tournament showed, and yet the logistics were still highly powerful.
The problem is, there's hardly a counter for logistics, and it wrecks combat to know that you can regularly design nearly unbreakable setups in this game. This game was far better off when logistics weren't so ******* retardedly strong.
Nobody in this game finds it fun when the other side is unbreakable... it just leads to fights that take way too long to decide, for hardly any real action.
No, that was my entire argument. That one logistics ship is not able to prevent an entire group of ships from dying. 1 Logistics ship does not negate 10-15 battleships worth of damage. That's why I pointed out that the minimum requirement for that to be true is 96% lowest resist and a fairly large EHP buffer.
Furthermore, your point about the tournament is entirely negated by the fact that the commentators were making statements like: "At the beginning of a fight with so many people on the field logistics and ASBs really don't matter. That's why it's a great choice that XXX team just started burning down battlecruisers." Go watch the tournament again.
Additionally, there are numerous counters to logistics. Jamming, damps, neuts, direct damage and more. Just because you don't like the fact that logistics/healing plays any role at all in combat doesn't mean that it shouldn't. And finally, there are ALWAYS ways to break unbreakable setups. I mean, logistics are hard countered by high alpha ships. I'm not even talking about Alphafleet - just enough to volley through shields/armor works fine.
And really, we're living in the age that people legitimately talk about volleying linked slaved deadspace fit Aeons with 17-18 titans and "Eh, not that many Titans".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 23:16:00 -
[203] - Quote
@Fozzie
You have to consider the repping power of 400DPS that is way to much.This is more than Sentries in lowsec apply and about the DPS of a CR or gank Dessi. Either scale the repping power down or give them a huge sig, like CR sig.
The major problem with these Fr are the disposal factor, cheap and easy to use on an alt account. Take 1xBC add 1xlogi Frig on your alt account and you are golden, warp the BC in, engage and warp in the Fr at 0km, turn the reps on your BC, fire up your AB and set close orbit. This Fr won't die in a long time (with a low sig) and if it die/neuted it won't matter as they are throwaway ships. The worst thing is this scales up to 2and2, 3and3 etc.
You will completly change the small scale PvP style, noone will ever fit a buffer tank again just up the resistances and DPS. You will see soon just gank fitted ships with uber resistances ready to be rr'ed by those Fr.
To balance it the logi Fr shouldn't have far more repping power than a T1 Fr can apply DPS. That is in the range of 110DPS so the logi Fr should at best rep about 220DPS. |

Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.20 23:28:00 -
[204] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:aoeu Itonula wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Force multipliers as strong as logi should not be on throwaway disposable hulls You mean like EAFs? Let's be frank here, with the cost of a full t2/deadspace fit, the difference between a fully fit t1 frig and fully fit t2 frig is negligible. unlike eaf ewar remote reps stack infinitely. There is no reason to not spam these ships and b put every single new player in one
What are smart bombs, Alex.
I'll take inane complaints for 400... |

Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
134
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 00:03:00 -
[205] - Quote
Overall, these frigates look great. There are some issues as to fitting cost relative to hull cost, since a tech-1 frigate is very squishy and a Logistics ship will almost always be primaried first. A 28km remote repair range may be too short, but will have to see the ship in action before judging. Hope that they will make it to the test server soon.
I suspect that the deficiencies of these frigates: weak tank, weak sensor strength, low speed, and short repair range, are not at all a bad thing, since they leave room for tech-2 variants. But again, will have to see the final versions in action.
It may make sense to balance around tech-2/meta-4 as far as remote reppers go. For cruiser Logistics hulls, quite a bit of thought goes into whether to fit tech-2 or meta-4 reppers. But I am not familiar with the drop rates for small reppers.
I am not sure that remote armor repper cycle time will be a significant issue. A competent Logistics pilot can keep a frigate alive despite a five-second cycle time for remote reppers. If that does become an issue, one possible solution may be to give these ships an increased repper cycle time, with a proportional decrease in cap use.
|

Obsidiana
White-Noise
147
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 00:19:00 -
[206] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:serras bang wrote:wouldnt the logicl path here be to make the osprey and its counter parts into a full t1 logi criuser. ? I completely agree. I think everyone expects mining cruisers to go. The Osprey really did make sense in EVE's early age. The Raven, Scorpion, and Moa all had 4 turrets back then too. Caldari Cruiser 2 gave you 4.2 mining lasers with an 8 drone bay (pre-drone change). Now, with the Ferrox having recieved a 6th turret and the Rokh having 8, it doesn't make sense. The Osprey is a relic.
I just hope the the Exequor doesn't loose the cargo bay bonus. In fact, I wish each race had a uniquely bonused cruiser. All of this organization is also homoginization. The Exequor's bonus made it a great salvage ship. While it has be eclipsed by the Noctis, it still makes for a good trade vessel. For those that don't want to train industrials, the Exequor is a great alternative. Players find uses for ships like this.
Questions:
Have things like this come up in conversation with the CSM and other devs?
With ORE getting a frigate, everyone is already talking about ORE cruisers and even battleships. Is this something that you (just you or other devs) feel is worth considering? How would you feel about a mining Apoc/Domi love-child? >:}
CCP Fozzie wrote:Khanid faction ships would be cool, maybe someday. QFT |

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 00:27:00 -
[207] - Quote
Actually have a Navitas fitted with a joke set-up of remote reps. Joke no more? :D |

Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1783
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 00:40:00 -
[208] - Quote
I'd love to see reduced cycle time instead of increased repair amount on these things. Frigates are small, frigate fights are fast. No sense repairing 110% of my target's shields each cycle, know what I mean? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
310
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:01:00 -
[209] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:Call me nostalgic but I would have loved to see the Navitas made into the drone boat. It just looks so awesome, especially alongside the Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. The Tristan never looked very Gallente to me. I don't suppose you're willing to swap the models around, but maintain the same stats? You did it once with the Helios :)
yes please |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2756
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:06:00 -
[210] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:If we find that the range isn't enough it is open to possible changes after we roll out the testing. But I don't really want them to be able to sit so far away that catching them becomes extremely difficult.
Putting them right on the edge of longpoint and heavy neut range was intentional. Putting them in heavy neut range without the slots for a cap booster is kinda mean. ;-) -Liang
Yes it was. Good job Fozzie, smart thinking. :) Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|
|

Shegunna Blow
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:07:00 -
[211] - Quote
I'm disappointed to see each race frigate have the same exact bonus'. I'd like to see something more diverse along the lines of the current logi ships.
This along with the recent "inty" style frigates that were just updated, feels like each ship is more or less the same but painted different colors. (minor differences in tank and turret/launcher choice aside) |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2756
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:11:00 -
[212] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's.
We need to do one better, we need to tweak the armor rigs so that things that aren't strapping steel onto your hull (trimarks) aren't slowing your ship down. So you're pumping some juice through your reps. Give it a sig bloom. But slowing down Gallente ships further with the rigs they need to do anything at all is silly.
All that to say, speeding up the Navitas is a band-aid. CCP needs to revist changing the penalty on a few select rigs to not cripple a racial fleet style just for the sake of having a pattern in rigs. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2756
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:13:00 -
[213] - Quote
Jori McKie wrote:@Fozzie
You have to consider the repping power of 400DPS that is way to much. This is more than Sentries in lowsec apply ....
OH HO HO HO HO. 
Merry Christmas.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2759
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:I'd love to see reduced cycle time instead of increased repair amount on these things. Frigates are small, frigate fights are fast. No sense repairing 110% of my target's shields each cycle, know what I mean?
I do actually agree with this one, speed makes more sense that strength, ESPECIALLY with armor reps. There will be much work to be in testing, I'll be flying these myself alongside you guys once they're on SiSi. If they need some extra love to get functioning just right, that speed may be it. This makes a lot of sense when coupled with the cap bonus that many of you are questioning the existence of. Zippier reps need more cap to keep up the same amount of HP / s. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:38:00 -
[215] - Quote
Why the inquisitor exactly? It's the only amarr rocket ship. Hopefully another amarr frig gets rockets instead. |

CobaltSixty
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:41:00 -
[216] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, the Tormentor should be in the Inquisitor's spot. There's really no shame in admitting that the first, inexplicably early revision of one of the least used hulls in the game was incorrect. I'm still 100% expecting a missile Inquisitor that doesn't suck, so fix it. Besides, "Tormentor" is a much more appropriate name for something that prevents you from killing someone.
Also, I fully agree with switching the rep amount bonus to a cycle time bonus so armor is not as gimped with late reps. The remote repair capacitor reduction will have to be increased to support quicker cycles. Shouldn't really be a big deal, just switch the range and amount bonuses.
Example Bantam Frigate skill bonuses: 100% bonus to the range of shield transporters per level 15% bonus to shield transporter capacitor use per level Role bonus: 33% reduction in shield transporter duration
Instead of getting better repair performance as the pilot's frigate skill improves, they gain additional range. Thoughts? |

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2759
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 01:48:00 -
[217] - Quote
CobaltSixty wrote:CCP Fozzie, the Tormentor should be in the Inquisitor's spot. There's really no shame in admitting that the first, inexplicably early revision of one of the least used hulls in the game was incorrect. I'm still 100% expecting a missile Inquisitor that doesn't suck, so fix it. Besides, "Tormentor" is a much more appropriate name for something that prevents you from killing someone.
All the ridiculous sense of entitlement aside, he does make a good point at the end about the name :) Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
528
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:00:00 -
[218] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's. We need to do one better, we need to tweak the armor rigs so that things that aren't strapping steel onto your hull (trimarks) aren't slowing your ship down. So you're pumping some juice through your reps. Give it a sig bloom. But slowing down Gallente ships further with the rigs they need to do anything at all is silly. All that to say, speeding up the Navitas is a band-aid. CCP needs to revist changing the penalty on a few select rigs to not cripple a racial fleet style just for the sake of having a pattern in rigs.
they tried to do this a few months ago and got trolled pretty hard by the community... i think they need to rethink all rig penalties in the first place... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
872
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:15:00 -
[219] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mizhir wrote:Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder? I doubt Kil2 will like this. I expect I would get an earful from him and Kovorix if it wasn't for the fact that he completely ignores frigates.  Yes any change that extends the length of fights and makes killing key ships quickly harder makes soloing harder, and that's something we knew going into this. In the end we believe that the options this gives small gangs and new pilots outweighs the downsides. We have not forgotten solo pilots, even though this ship class does make things somewhat harder for them.
So, anything planned to improve the outlook for solo PVP pilots? The massively reduced ability to fight solo (over years of changes) is one of the key reasons I've cancelled all of my accounts. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |

Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:26:00 -
[220] - Quote
Logi frigates? What's logi? Wasn't he the fire dude in das rhinegold?
I can see why CCP is doing this, but these seem very specialized for a frigate class. What do you get when you cross an owl and a bungee cord? |
|

Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
172
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:40:00 -
[221] - Quote
I feel like everyone complaining in this thread is thinking about how hard it is to kill T2 logistics ships right now and imagining how much harder it will be to kill these things.
What people are forgetting is that these ships do not get the (idk what to even call it) "T2 sig radius" of the logistics ships.
These things are half the size of the logistics cruisers already, slap some shield rigs and a MSE on there and it will be huge.
Also its much easier to get 3-4 muninns at range to alpha strike a frigate than it is to get the 25 or so needed to alpha strike a regular logistics ship |

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
137
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 02:52:00 -
[222] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's. We need to do one better, we need to tweak the armor rigs so that things that aren't strapping steel onto your hull (trimarks) aren't slowing your ship down. So you're pumping some juice through your reps. Give it a sig bloom. But slowing down Gallente ships further with the rigs they need to do anything at all is silly. All that to say, speeding up the Navitas is a band-aid. CCP needs to revist changing the penalty on a few select rigs to not cripple a racial fleet style just for the sake of having a pattern in rigs.
Agreed. |

Agnar Volta
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 03:12:00 -
[223] - Quote
Dear Fozzie,
If you really want to test this frigs, give a batch to us and we will put it to test.
I find the concept very appealing, and being part of the entity that uses tech I frigs the most, I think they will bring some special flavour to combat.
Range and speed seams good to me, also the amount of rep. Maybe you should look at the cycle a bit more, because a frig could easily be dead by the time the reps get to them.
This will also give a good use to that 4 high slot in the Attack Frigs, slap a neut in it and they will be the perfect logi killer.
I can see a much more dynamic battlefield with all this options available, not to mention lots of things for new players to do in a fleet besides orbit and press F1.
Thanks for the good work mate. Wish we had you doing this some years ago.
Edit: Do you still have some love for the Rifter? Seams to me that it will be the only frig that wont benefit from reps. |

Alara IonStorm
3006
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 03:53:00 -
[224] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's. We need to do one better, we need to tweak the armor rigs so that things that aren't strapping steel onto your hull (trimarks) aren't slowing your ship down. So you're pumping some juice through your reps. Give it a sig bloom. But slowing down Gallente ships further with the rigs they need to do anything at all is silly. All that to say, speeding up the Navitas is a band-aid. CCP needs to revist changing the penalty on a few select rigs to not cripple a racial fleet style just for the sake of having a pattern in rigs. I think they need to do one better then that and scrap the penalties all together.
Astronautics that nerf Armor, Electronics that nerf shield. That just shoehorns rigs by tank type. Armor penalties make most Armor Cruisers slower then Shield Canes. No wonder most people fit the Thorax, Hurricane, Harbinger, Brutix, Myrmidon and Rupture with Shield Tanks more often then not. Sig Rad Penalties don't amount to much realistically for Battlecruisers and Battleships in most fights but hurt smaller ships.
Honestly I think plate mass and extender sig is enough without these ships taking a second hit. Removing Rig Penalties would expand what types of ships use rigs and help ships like Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Armor Battleships that suffer the most from them.
|

Kalla Vera Quiroga
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 04:25:00 -
[225] - Quote
I like these new toys. |

Gus Machado
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 05:59:00 -
[226] - Quote
frigate logi fleets here i come. |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
262
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 06:10:00 -
[227] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:All that to say, speeding up the Navitas is a band-aid. CCP needs to revist changing the penalty on a few select rigs to not cripple a racial fleet style just for the sake of having a pattern in rigs. Problem is that they are not likely to start making different penalties for rigs within the same group, so has to either make more groups or shuffle rigs around. But the "slapping steel on.." comment made me think. Q: when does one not want to be in full plate/battle gear? A: In the sun and/or when its hot. New penalty option #1: Modifier for the heat damage attribute of all fitted mods. Harder to get rid of excess heat so builds up more quickly .. New penalty option #2: Modifier for capacitor drain of all fitted mods. Harder to get rid of excess heat so additional power needed to avoid build-up.
@Fozzie: Would love to have comment on feasibility of my first post in this discussion of what might just be the best thing since toast with proper bitter marmalade.
|

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
387
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 06:19:00 -
[228] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: Removing Rig Penalties would expand what types of ships use rigs and help ships like Frigates, Destroyers, Cruisers and Armor Battleships that suffer the most from them.
Seeing the outrage last time an attempt was made to change rig penalties, this might actually be the best solution (if also the least interesting) because few will object the removal of penalties.
Last time you were proposing a -20% reduction of penalties per level for each rigging skill, right? Drakes & Tengus online: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1208/fbaugust.jpg |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1942
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 06:24:00 -
[229] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote: Last time you were proposing a -20% reduction of penalties per level for each rigging skill, right?
Heh, I actually have several rigging skills at 5. I am totally ok with this.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
59
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 06:32:00 -
[230] - Quote
This is a bit of a tangent question, but does anyone here think that an over-proliferation of logi is going to be a problem? I hear from my nullsec contacts that more and more fleets consist primarily of logi ships (scimis), so would a stacking penalty of some sort on remote repping be a good way to constraint overuse of logi? I mean, the alliance tournament puts a hard limit on logi ships for this reason (boring unkillable stalemate fleets) so perhaps its something that needs to be considered if we're going to see hordes of logi frigates running around. |
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1942
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 06:34:00 -
[231] - Quote
Galphii wrote:This is a bit of a tangent question, but does anyone here think that an over-proliferation of logi is going to be a problem? I hear from my nullsec contacts that more and more fleets consist primarily of logi ships (scimis), so would a stacking penalty of some sort on remote repping be a good way to constraint overuse of logi? I mean, the alliance tournament puts a hard limit on logi ships for this reason (boring unkillable stalemate fleets) so perhaps its something that needs to be considered if we're going to see hordes of logi frigates running around.
I do believe I've heard the suggestion of removing healing in every PVP game I've ever played.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Alara IonStorm
3008
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 06:44:00 -
[232] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote: Last time you were proposing a -20% reduction of penalties per level for each rigging skill, right?
Yes. Either that or re-balancing Calibration Cost and having the skill lower it with 4-5 being primarily for T2 Rigs. I personally prefer the 20% solution. |

Vokradacka
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 07:28:00 -
[233] - Quote
Wtf ...? Slow , short range , 3k EHP frigates are problem for you guys? Seriously ? |

JamesCLK
Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners
192
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 07:32:00 -
[234] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote: Last time you were proposing a -20% reduction of penalties per level for each rigging skill, right?
Yes. Either that or re-balancing Calibration Cost and having the skill lower it with 4-5 being primarily for T2 Rigs. I personally prefer the 20% solution.
Changing drawbacks to reflect the actual use of the individual rig (not the type) is probably a better idea IMHO.
Fair enough that trimarks increase your mass, it's literally welding more armour to your ship (on a % base even). But isn't it somewhat ridiculous to imply that a rig that optimises the cycle time or repair amount (additional power feeds or additional repair nanite control feeds respectively) gives you the same kind of mass increase that adding tonnes of armour plating does; rather it might increase the PG or CPU use of a repairer. Just my 0.02 ISK.
/off topic?
I love the idea of logistics frigates as a logi pilot myself; flying these frigs is going to be a nice challenge (paper thin, relatively slow, limited range, etc...). I'm also going to echo the voices calling for armour mods in general to be looked at though.
|

Alexander Yukari
TerraNovae Workers Trade Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 07:56:00 -
[235] - Quote
Very welcomed change.
Now pass this info to team doing incursions, and re-balance scouts sites in incursions. From start they were useless, not worth doing. Consider making them worthwhile for 2 logi frigs and 2-3 AF/dessies. ISK somewhere between lv2 and lv3 missions per h. Low entry point into incursions, good practice for people before training up for logi cruiser. |

Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
59
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 08:00:00 -
[236] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Galphii wrote:This is a bit of a tangent question, but does anyone here think that an over-proliferation of logi is going to be a problem? I hear from my nullsec contacts that more and more fleets consist primarily of logi ships (scimis), so would a stacking penalty of some sort on remote repping be a good way to constraint overuse of logi? I mean, the alliance tournament puts a hard limit on logi ships for this reason (boring unkillable stalemate fleets) so perhaps its something that needs to be considered if we're going to see hordes of logi frigates running around. I do believe I've heard the suggestion of removing healing in every PVP game I've ever played. -Liang Fascinating but irrelevant, because that's not what I suggested. Buy new glasses perhaps? |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1943
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 08:01:00 -
[237] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Fascinating but irrelevant, because that's not what I suggested. Buy new glasses perhaps?
You damn sure did pull a "because of heals!!!"
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Benny Ohu
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 09:03:00 -
[238] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Galphii wrote:Fascinating but irrelevant, because that's not what I suggested. Buy new glasses perhaps? You damn sure did pull a "because of heals!!!" -Liang He expressed the opinion that too many logis might be boring. You started acting like a turd. |

feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 09:17:00 -
[239] - Quote
Pretty sure I'm posting in a stealth EAF buff thread.
This is a good thing  It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |

Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Silent Infinity
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 09:33:00 -
[240] - Quote
When will we have t2 versions of these firgs? seriously, these are just way too awesome to be left alone at this level. i was thinking of the possibility of frig logies for a long time, these would make nice additions to fleets :)
And what will happen to the cycle times of armor reps? shouldn't those be reconsidered also? 5 secs of repping on a frig is a lot of time, they don't always have that much of a buffer, especially when vagas and cynabals are on their neck.
Otherwise, so far so good :)
|
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
166
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 09:42:00 -
[241] - Quote
Destroyers are gonna have great fun welping these. |

Monster Dude
hirr Against ALL Authorities
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 09:56:00 -
[242] - Quote
It would be 100 times better to make logies endup in kill mails. E.g. If logistic repping a ship that getting in killmail (shoting it ) then logi gets in killmail too.
Then players would fit nano logistics for frig roamings... An no special frigates would be needed. |

Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
167
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 10:06:00 -
[243] - Quote
Agreed that there should be an "Assisted by" section on the kill mail which would have details of whatever assistance was supplied during the fight. This would include gang links 
I would imagine the kill mail would look more like this:
|>Killed by: Pilot Ship Weapon Damage dealt |> Assisted by: Pilot Ship Assistance (remote repair / shield transporter / remote ECCM etc)
This way people won't get "Solo" kills that aren't solo kills and if someone is using an off grid booster it will be known
|

Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko Tower of Dark Alliance
21
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 10:25:00 -
[244] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie, there's three questions about these ships.
1. Bantam without launchers, but you say you don't want to make noobie's train 'wrong' skills? 2. Exactly same bonuses within armor/shield tank, shouldn't there be more racial diversity? such as more range but less healing or vice versa? 3. No more drones for Navitas? Just one light drone for any of the ships? Maybe do Navitas as 'repair drone' boat? (also note the string above.) |

ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
131
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:34:00 -
[245] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?
how is it "solo" combat if there is a second person on a team involved?
PS: i love the fact that we have logi frigates now, but it sadens me deeply that i will not be getting my rocket inquisitor :( i was looking foward to it ALOT |

Klown Walk
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
133
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 11:53:00 -
[246] - Quote
More changes that makes pvp just about having more numbers. This will kill solo frigate pvp, I can't see myself using a Taranis trying to pick of tacklers/frigates in a gang after this change. |

Erim Solfara
inFluX.
57
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 12:04:00 -
[247] - Quote
This should be the tormentor, not the inquisitor, and the new tormentor should use the inquisitor hull.
Why the disparity between the races? |

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:30:00 -
[248] - Quote
Frigates live and die on their speed. Making this ships slower than the rest of the frigate gang means they are just going to die horribly, plus, the suggested rep range puts them in range of large neuts. They'll need some other boost to be functional. Interceptor warp speed would be my suggestion. It would allow them to bounce in and out of a fight fairly effectively. Plus, it would make them an ideal ship to bring in small gangs to suicidally rep the bait ship while the rest of the gang is inbound. |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1135

|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:49:00 -
[249] - Quote
Ok I'm gonna do another response post, try to cover the major themes so far. This is responding to subjects brought up both in this thread and on third party sites, although those of you hoping for me to respond directly on third party sites will be best served asking specific questions you want answered here on the official forums since this is where I will be replying.
Discussion of tanking imbalances: So some people have been asking if we care about some of the design problems inherent in our current tanking situation, and if we're going to redesign these ships to compensate for these problems. Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range. These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source. That being said there may be things we end up doing to these ships to help smooth things out, such as reducing cycle times and/or tweaking the mass of the armor tankers down a bit. We're going to keep working on these ships up to and beyond release in the Winter.
What about reducing the cycle times so the reps can hit fragile frigates faster?: It's definitely an option we're keeping open, both to help deal with the armor/shield imbalances and also because these ships will so often be repping low buffer allies.
Gonna quote one post since it sums up three good questions so succinctly:
Paul Clancy wrote:Dear CCP Fozzie, there's three questions about these ships. 1. Bantam without launchers, but you say you don't want to make noobie's train 'wrong' skills? Turrets are 100% a viable and correct weapon system for Caldari pilots. They have turret ships at all levels in every tech level. Also the hardpoints on these frigates are not intended to be primary weapons in most situations. There's two reasons I put them on: a) Because I think some people will experiment with fleets of combat fit logi frigates as a fun (but not generally optimal) setup b) Because part of giving people freedom and choice is allowing them to make choices like putting killmail grabbing guns on a logistics ship. Learning why you should not use those guns is a key step in the life of a logi pilot.
Paul Clancy wrote:2. Exactly same bonuses within armor/shield tank, shouldn't there be more racial diversity? such as more range but less healing or vice versa? In the case of logistics ships adding differences on the scale of range and rep amount will quickly create optimal ships and sideline the rest. We are separating the ships into the slightly more durable (Inquisitor and Bantam) and slightly more mobile (Navitas and Burst). We'll keep tuning those to make sure they're as distinct as possible without making any of them useless.
Paul Clancy wrote:3. No more drones for Navitas? Just one light drone for any of the ships? Maybe do Navitas as 'repair drone' boat? (also note the string above.) A Navitas built as a dedicated logistics drone ship was actually a design I spent a lot of time working on early in the process. There were definite issues balancing it, but the nail in the coffin was that logistics drones are much more SP intensive than normal reps. We needed all of these ships to be similarly viable for newer players.
Don't you care about the fact that the Tormentor used to be the mining frigate so it breaks the pattern of mining frigates becoming logi frigates? Not really, no.
What if these ships ruin solo pvp? So this is a big question and is the main reason I'm moving relatively carefully here. I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder. In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face. The rep amount is very low (even accounting for ship size) compared to the commonly used rep ships, and the logi frigates are sluggish enough that you can use speed and maneuvering to your advantage against them. We're going to be testing these ships for a longer period than we have ever tested new ships, and we will be taking all of that testing into account. If we need to tune these ships to reduce or increase their power, we have time to do so. And we're not firing and forgetting once they are on TQ as well.
Now for the big one. Why didn't we keep the Inquisitor as a rocket frigate so that the Khanid ships would have a tech one precursor?
This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable. CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide. a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships. b) Increase the use of drones on Amarr ships and turn drones into the full fledged secondary Amarr weapon. Create some pure droneboats in the style of the Arbitrator and Sentinel, as well as more ships that have a strong unbonused dronebay as a secondary weapon like the Armageddon. c) Attempt to do both
The choice was made to reinforce the use of drones in Amarr ships, which meant that there would not be room for a full line of missile ships at tech one. CCP would love to expand the missile capabilities on Amarr ships in other ways, but that would be a more long-term goal.
At the time that Ytterbium's blog was released discussing the summer balancing work, this was the point the de... |
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Kraschyn Thek'athor
Marquie-X Corp Ewoks
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 13:49:00 -
[250] - Quote
I'am looking really forward this. There were a breach in the repping chain, since an T2 Logistic Cruiser cannot keep pace with Frigattes.
I find the introduction of T2 Logistic Frigatte rather easy. Give them defensive boni, done! Something like 10% MWD Signature Reduction/Level, 5% Shield/Armor Resistances per Level, 10% Hitpoints for Shield/Armor per Level....
And all those "death to 1 vs. 1" talking.
Your 1 vs. 1 is also ruined with an Blackbird on the second account for example. There are dozens of ways that an Dualboxing vs. One gives advantages. A T1 Logi Frig against any other Combat Frig in a One vs. One is a sure thing lost to the Logi Frigatte.
But Logi Frigattes will open up some new opportunities.
For better one vs. one Fighting, we would need other "rules". Area that restrict Access, like long tunnels in an asteroid. Physical obstacles that can't be shoot through....
Like in the real world. Nobody stops the onslaught on a plain area without cover.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
263
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:42:00 -
[251] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:... We made the decision to drop the rocket Inquisitor and make it the Amarr logistics frigate, as the better of two good options... Why choose when you can have both without significant breakage?
Veshta Yoshida, on page 10 wrote: <.snip.> My idea, was and is, to have look and feel like combat frigates that were refurbished to fill a need in the armed forces; - Give each two (or three) weapon slots of racial type. - Double the amount repped bonus, makes it an even 100% at lvl5 .. Smalls will in effect rep as much as a Medium. - Replace cap bonus with a racial damage (or RoF) bonus.
Avoids creating a one-trick pony which is I believe contrary to current design philosophy (T2 = focused, T1 = generic, T3 = TBA). Avoids having logi frigs being only flown by alts/dual-box characters as they will have nothing to do at all. Shifts the planned rep-over-duration-of-fight towards the front end of the fights (where it matters, see avg. frig fright duration above), with cap becoming an issue if it drags on.
Give the Amarr logistics frigate launcher slots and a rocket bonus and you get to keep the missile line alive as well as giving players the option to go all-out combat, logistics or a mix of the two .. AND .. it partially solves the issue of armour coming in at the end of the cycle removing the need to speed SAR's up .. only need a 200mn plate to live long enough in most cases, tested with a Guardian using only SAR's.
Speaking of the Guardian, that ship is why I hate having another ship that only does one thing especially when it is a T1 hull which are supposedly the ones with the widest focus.
In short: Don't make the choice, leave that to us!  |

Lili Lu
353
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:48:00 -
[252] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Discussion of tanking imbalances: So some people have been asking if we care about some of the design problems inherent in our current tanking situation, and if we're going to redesign these ships to compensate for these problems. Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range. These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source. That being said there may be things we end up doing to these ships to help smooth things out, such as reducing cycle times and/or tweaking the mass of the armor tankers down a bit. We're going to keep working on these ships up to and beyond release in the Winter. Good to hear. I know for me it has been frustrating seeing the design changes on frigates and destroyers roll out an only too well reinforce the existing disparities in the game. It only elicits from me sarcastic posts as without any indication of concern on your part gets depressing. Thanks for this post, but please also consider expediting some of the module fixes as this has been needing to be addressed for years. ItGÇÖs almost all shield kiting all the time right now.
CCP Fozzie wrote: What about reducing the cycle times so the reps can hit fragile frigates faster?: It's definitely an option we're keeping open, both to help deal with the armor/shield imbalances and also because these ships will so often be repping low buffer allies. thanks again.
CCP Fozzie wrote: Gonna quote one post since it sums up three good questions so succinctly: Paul Clancy wrote: Paul Clancy wrote: Dear CCP Fozzie, there's three questions about these ships. 1. Bantam without launchers, but you say you don't want to make noobie's train 'wrong' skills? Learning why you should not use those guns is a key step in the life of a logi pilot. This. Enough said Fozzie. If a budding logi pilot wants to killmail ***** he can relase his one light drone and assign it to the killmail god in the gang. Good luck to him sometimes finding the moment to do so in a quickly beginning and fast moving frig fight as well  |

Lili Lu
353
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 14:58:00 -
[253] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Paul Clancy wrote: Paul Clancy wrote: 2. Exactly same bonuses within armor/shield tank, shouldn't there be more racial diversity? such as more range but less healing or vice versa? In the case of logistics ships adding differences on the scale of range and rep amount will quickly create optimal ships and sideline the rest. We are separating the ships into the slightly more durable (Inquisitor and Bantam) and slightly more mobile (Navitas and Burst). We'll keep tuning those to make sure they're as distinct as possible without making any of them useless. Thanks for this clarification as well. I was wondering why the hp disparities, and the slot disparites were puzzling as they meant a weaker tank on some. But please also remember that the Navitas in particular will have other difficulties to overcome. Its low slots will have competing interests unlike the Burst. If it chooses to armor tank then those mods will compete directly with mobility mods in the lows. Worse, it cannot try to rig for both as those rigs will directly nerf each other. Again, please consider module and rig fixes on an expedited timetable or the Navitas will simply not see much use.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Paul Clancy wrote: Paul Clancy wrote: 3. No more drones for Navitas? Just one light drone for any of the ships? Maybe do Navitas as 'repair drone' boat? (also note the string above.) A Navitas built as a dedicated logistics drone ship was actually a design I spent a lot of time working on early in the process. There were definite issues balancing it, but the nail in the coffin was that logistics drones are much more SP intensive than normal reps. We needed all of these ships to be similarly viable for newer players. Agreed. Training for the remote repair modules are of prime importance. The repair bot training can wait until cruiser or even tech II logi tbh.
|

Mascha Tzash
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:10:00 -
[254] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I'm not going to rule out creating t2 versions of these someday, but the t1 versions are all that's coming for winter and t2 versions would be a somewhat more difficult balancing problem if we ever do them.
By reading this, I fear BS are getting attention in 2014 or even later. Not that BS matter more than any other class, but there are also some... lets call it strange things happening. And these would be sitting there for at least 2 years from now.
It's 100% correct to take the first steps of a very new aproach more than carefully, like you do in this phase of redesigning ships. I also like the fact, that even design drafts are presented and discussed.
But I also fear, that this will go on like this:
Summer 13: Destroyers Winter 13: Cruisers Summer 14: redoing Destroyers Winter 14: BCs and so on....
Hopefully I will be prooved wrong...
best wishes and go on with your good work  |

Lili Lu
353
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:12:00 -
[255] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Paul Clancy wrote: Don't you care about the fact that the Tormentor used to be the mining frigate so it breaks the pattern of mining frigates becoming logi frigates? Agreed. Hull switcheroos are nbd. [quote=CCP Fozzie][quote=Paul Clancy] What if these ships ruin solo pvp? So this is a big question and is the main reason I'm moving relatively carefully here. I understand how much solo players rely on killing key enemy ships fast and how anything that helps gangs keep their ships alive is going to make solo harder. In the end I believe that the stats on these ships will make them managable for solo and small gangs to face. The rep amount is very low (even accounting for ship size) compared to the commonly used rep ships, and the logi frigates are sluggish enough that you can use speed and maneuvering to your advantage against them. We're going to be testing these ships for a longer period than we have ever tested new ships, and we will be taking all of that testing into account. If we need to tune these ships to reduce or increase their power, we have time to do so. And we're not firing and forgetting once they are on TQ as well. Sounds good. Solo in this game is such a rarity anyway. As long as the alt (formerly Falcon, now tech III booster) is brought into line (which please expedite in the case of tech III ssGÇÖd off-grid boosters) it becomes less of a concern. |

Lili Lu
353
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:13:00 -
[256] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Paul Clancy wrote: Now for the big one. Why didn't we keep the Inquisitor as a rocket frigate so that the Khanid ships would have a tech one precursor? This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable. CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide. a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships. b) Increase the use of drones on Amarr ships and turn drones into the full fledged secondary Amarr weapon. Create some pure droneboats in the style of the Arbitrator and Sentinel, as well as more ships that have a strong unbonused dronebay as a secondary weapon like the Armageddon. c) Attempt to do both The choice was made to reinforce the use of drones in Amarr ships, which meant that there would not be room for a full line of missile ships at tech one. CCP would love to expand the missile capabilities on Amarr ships in other ways, but that would be a more long-term goal. At the time that Ytterbium's blog was released discussing the summer balancing work, this was the point the design was at. The Inquisitor and Tristan were both planned to be missile ships at that point, but neither race was planned to have further tech one missile ships in their lineup. When we made the decision to create the line of logistics frigates we also decided to scrap the missile frigates for those races. It was an easy choice for the Tristan since missiles for Gallente are so minor. It was a bigger loss for the Inquisitor for sure, as I am sure we could have created an enjoyable armor tanking rocket frig out of it. But creating the logistics frigates will open up so many more avenues for interesting tactical choices and provide a stepping stone into the chain of logistics ships (which will also include revamped tech one logistics cruisers). We made the decision to drop the rocket Inquisitor and make it the Amarr logistics frigate, as the better of two good options. This does leave the Khanid tech two ships without tech one introductions, but we believe that the ships will still provide good options for Amarr T2 pilots. The fact that individual classes of missiles are significantly faster to train to than turrets helps this situation as well. We may be able to add more missile ships in the future, but for now we do feel that the plan of expanding Amarr drone options will result in a solid lineup of ships. Good explanation. Essentially both Minmatar and Amarr will have to train all three weapons systems to a high level if they want access to the full range of ships. Caldari and Gallente will not. You may find an increase in people choosing those races then. But that has already been the case. I belive your stats would show top choice being Caldari, then used to be Gallente but now probably Minmatar, and Amarr usually at the bottom. If it becomes even more skewed please address it without letting too many years go by, heh. As for the Amarr use of drones, well it fits into rp. They would love some disobedient machines to command and whip when the obedience and moral fail to improve. |

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1077
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:20:00 -
[257] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
Please reconsider this.
The Inquisitor has always been a great little ship that offers something a little bit different.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:28:00 -
[258] - Quote
Releasing and proliferating logistics without first assessing how adversely logistics affects small fleet battles is an awful idea.
You say you've taken this into consideration, but I really don't think you understand how easy they will be to mass considering how little effort they will require to fly and how quickly new characters will be able to effectively repair remotely. Frigates keeping transversal at speed at 25km+ away are not viable targets for virtually anything that you can solo in. Their repairs are more than enough to push tanky ships easily into the unkillable category. Raw hitpoint transfers with no diminishing returns multiplied by a broken tank set-up that universally favors increased resistance bonuses means you are taking an existing problem and adding to it.
To try to make this more clear, I will do an example.
I have run multi-box PVP set ups before, with numerous differences in ship types and tactics (double to quad gank destroyer runs, dictor/falcon, double BC, etc). The benefit of doing this is being able to engage and kill targets that are difficult or impossible to kill with a single pilot. The downside is that for most of the effective set-ups (like dictor/falcon, logi/anything), there is a steep skill point demand for two effective pilots, piloting multiple ships can be difficult, and the losses from errors made while piloting multiple ships can be costly. What you are introducing is another force multiplier that requires minimal skillpoint investment, ease of piloting, and virtually no way to lose significantly by using them.
An example: say I created three new accounts to specifically sit in and remote repair effectively with these new ships. I estimate about two weeks to fly them at 80%, a month to 95% efficacy. Fit for speed on a deadspace entry with my main character sitting on the warp-in at 0. Set alts to orbit, train repairs, fit ships for speed and cap stability, minimize windows (as I never need to pilot that ship again and if I lose it, who cares it's a t1 frigate). Put main character in a resistance ship with all the tackle needed to lock down any ship that comes in, and anything short of a massive retaliation specifically designed to kill me will just flat out lose, and anything that may actually kill me I will spot a mile away via local and d-scan.
This is all assuming I am doing this alone, but you can extrapolate if I recruited more people to do this with me. How will you be addressing such concerns? Do you actually know how badly logistics harms small gang engagements? Do you realize how easy it is with a frigate or a frigate gang to avoid confrontations with a fleet that could even potentially have a heavy neut (why the god would these ships ever get within range of anything that can fit a heavy neut? Really?)? What you should realize is that what you are adding is a very easily piloted pocket healer role that will be exploited to no end to buff tanks on ships that are already approaching the point where engaging them with anything less than an alpha fleet is a waste of time. |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:31:00 -
[259] - Quote
How you should be viewing this is not as "oh cool newbies can get into new ships!" but rather "oh no vets are going to exploit the everloving hell out of these new ships," as the second is going to have more impact on the game as a whole and more of an impact on the new player experience, as they quickly realize that on top of off-grid boosters, they are facing veterans with multiple pocket healers and no viable way to lose their ship.
I genuinely cannot fathom a reason you could see this change as a net positive. |

Lili Lu
353
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:44:00 -
[260] - Quote
Fozzie, concerning the logi frigates and ewar being aimed at them. Currently ecm is the best choice against any logi. For tech II logis there is a slot for eccm and due to the high sensor strength it is effective.
However, on these frigs an eccm will be useless (aside from fitting and cap costs) as it is wholly percentage based. Is it not possible to alter the eccm modules to make them a combination of some small whole number bonus and then a percentage on top of that? Then it might be worth figuring out how to fit and power an eccm or even use a low slot eccm on these ships.
Also, with improved damp boats, damping logis will become more popular. Here one would probably use range damping as it will affect the much shorter ship lock range and engagement ranges. Might it not be possible to build into these ship some extended lock range even if the reps can't land at that range, much like is the case for tech II logis. Reagardless I suspect many folks will want sensor boosters, signal amps, or even sensor rigs to address the threat of range or scan res damping.
Lastly, returning to the perpetual ecm problem, CCP has tried to nerf it twice already and at the same time you rebuffed ecm boats to compensate. I do not think you can succeed at nerfing it, and logis do need to fear and compensate for ewar anyway, whether ecm or damps. Simultaneously the game could always use new skills. Presently there are skills to increase lock range and lock speed, tracking range and tracking speed, but there are not skills to reduce signature or increase sensor strength.
I propose that you consider introducing sensor integrity skills (e.g. ladar sensor integrity, etc.) and a skill for a very slight decrease in signature radius. As long as the sig skill does not wipe out the increase that will come from improved painting boat percentage it would be a good addition to the game. As for the eccm skills and module alterations they would help 1. reduce the rage against and op'd ness of ecm, and 2. increase the relative utility in fitting an eccm module. This indirect nerf to ecm boats is probaly the best way to address that problem. |
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:57:00 -
[261] - Quote
Maliatida wrote:Frigates keeping transversal at speed at 25km+ away are not viable targets for virtually anything that you can solo in.. stopped reading at this point... there are boat loads of ships that can do this... curse. ANY DRONE boat. and so on... just because you have a fav solo frig you might not beable to take out a logi frig with does not mean that you cant... you CHOOSE not too... which IMO is not mine or CCP problem. Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 15:59:00 -
[262] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:good post about local eccm.
i would try an projected eccm chain... remote eccm is alot more effective then local eccm...
like i would put on a mid slot for you longer range frigs have a remote eccm and put it on the logi ship...
i know we do this all the time with tech II logi ships and stuff so they dont get jammed... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1947
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:03:00 -
[263] - Quote
Maliatida wrote:How you should be viewing this is not as "oh cool newbies can get into new ships!" but rather "oh no vets are going to exploit the everloving hell out of these new ships," as the second is going to have more impact on the game as a whole and more of an impact on the new player experience, as they quickly realize that on top of off-grid boosters, they are facing veterans with multiple pocket healers and no viable way to lose their ship.
I genuinely cannot fathom a reason you could see this change as a net positive.
This is what I think about the new logi frigs: - They're heavy, which leads to being slow even with a prop mod. - They're about as agile as a brick. - They have extremely short range RR (close enough for heavy neuts to **** your day up) - They don't have a slot for ECCM - They don't have a slot for a cap booster - They don't have the fittings for fitting RRs, a prop mod, and any significant buffer. - They have enormous sig radiuses. - They have no real offensive power
Calling this a "pocket healer" is just a bit too much of a stretch for me to let slide. I mean, unless you think a level 1 cleric is going to do anything meaningful in a fight between level 80 warriors.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Mizhir
Club Bear
82
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:04:00 -
[264] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Now for the big one. Why didn't we keep the Inquisitor as a rocket frigate so that the Khanid ships would have a tech one precursor?
This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable. CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide. a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships. b) Increase the use of drones on Amarr ships and turn drones into the full fledged secondary Amarr weapon. Create some pure droneboats in the style of the Arbitrator and Sentinel, as well as more ships that have a strong unbonused dronebay as a secondary weapon like the Armageddon. c) Attempt to do both
The choice was made to reinforce the use of drones in Amarr ships, which meant that there would not be room for a full line of missile ships at tech one. CCP would love to expand the missile capabilities on Amarr ships in other ways, but that would be a more long-term goal.
At the time that Ytterbium's blog was released discussing the summer balancing work, this was the point the design was at. The Inquisitor and Tristan were both planned to be missile ships at that point, but neither race was planned to have further tech one missile ships in their lineup. When we made the decision to create the line of logistics frigates we also decided to scrap the missile frigates for those races. It was an easy choice for the Tristan since missiles for Gallente are so minor. It was a bigger loss for the Inquisitor for sure, as I am sure we could have created an enjoyable armor tanking rocket frig out of it. But creating the logistics frigates will open up so many more avenues for interesting tactical choices and provide a stepping stone into the chain of logistics ships (which will also include revamped tech one logistics cruisers). We made the decision to drop the rocket Inquisitor and make it the Amarr logistics frigate, as the better of two good options.
This does leave the Khanid tech two ships without tech one introductions, but we believe that the ships will still provide good options for Amarr T2 pilots. The fact that individual classes of missiles are significantly faster to train to than turrets helps this situation as well. We may be able to add more missile ships in the future, but for now we do feel that the plan of expanding Amarr drone options will result in a solid lineup of ships.
I do continue to welcome all of your opinions on the subject, as everything in an MMO like eve is always able to be changed. We're here to make the best game possible in partnership with the community, and although we may not always agree on every specific point we do welcome all your feedback.
I hope you are adding t1 armor tanked missile ships for minmatar. Otherwise there aren't really any choices to have cheap armor tanked missile ships. Except for shoehorning armor tanks on Caldari ships. I was a bit dissapointed when you designed the breacher as a shield based ship. I hope you dont continue the trend. I would love to see some armor based missile ships with bonused TP.
Likewise there aren't really any t1 shield drone ships excet for gallente ships which get fitted with shield tanks, but it would be nice to see shield tanking as an more open option for gallente.
|

Vakr Onzo
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:11:00 -
[265] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Now for the big one. Why didn't we keep the Inquisitor as a rocket frigate so that the Khanid ships would have a tech one precursor?
This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable. CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide. a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships. b) Increase the use of drones on Amarr ships and turn drones into the full fledged secondary Amarr weapon. Create some pure droneboats in the style of the Arbitrator and Sentinel, as well as more ships that have a strong unbonused dronebay as a secondary weapon like the Armageddon. c) Attempt to do both
The choice was made to reinforce the use of drones in Amarr ships, which meant that there would not be room for a full line of missile ships at tech one. CCP would love to expand the missile capabilities on Amarr ships in other ways, but that would be a more long-term goal.
At the time that Ytterbium's blog was released discussing the summer balancing work, this was the point the design was at. The Inquisitor and Tristan were both planned to be missile ships at that point, but neither race was planned to have further tech one missile ships in their lineup. When we made the decision to create the line of logistics frigates we also decided to scrap the missile frigates for those races. It was an easy choice for the Tristan since missiles for Gallente are so minor. It was a bigger loss for the Inquisitor for sure, as I am sure we could have created an enjoyable armor tanking rocket frig out of it. But creating the logistics frigates will open up so many more avenues for interesting tactical choices and provide a stepping stone into the chain of logistics ships (which will also include revamped tech one logistics cruisers). We made the decision to drop the rocket Inquisitor and make it the Amarr logistics frigate, as the better of two good options.
This does leave the Khanid tech two ships without tech one introductions, but we believe that the ships will still provide good options for Amarr T2 pilots. The fact that individual classes of missiles are significantly faster to train to than turrets helps this situation as well. We may be able to add more missile ships in the future, but for now we do feel that the plan of expanding Amarr drone options will result in a solid lineup of ships.
I do continue to welcome all of your opinions on the subject, as everything in an MMO like eve is always able to be changed. We're here to make the best game possible in partnership with the community, and although we may not always agree on every specific point we do welcome all your feedback. Thank you for addressing that subject, I never though to phrase it as a Tech 1 percursor. I'll be missing the Inquisitor as a rocket boat and looking forward to what CCP has planned for more missile ships in future; hoping for another Tech 1 Percursor for Khanid ships.
|

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
529
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:11:00 -
[266] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:good post
as much as i hate to agree with you...
you are spot on with this... koodos... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
803
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:28:00 -
[267] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is a big issue brought up by these changes, and I want to address it in some depth. Currently the Khanid line of Amarr T2 ships uses missiles but Amarr only has one tech one missile ship, and it was almost unusable. CCP had a choice to make when planning for the Amarr tiericide. a) Create a whole line of T1 Amarr missile ships that have similar styles to the Khanid ships to act as a stepping stone. This would mean making the Inquisitor into a mini-Vengance, and the Maller and Prophesy into HAM ships.
This statement bothers me. Like I already said, I really don't want to see EACH T1 ship class just simply be a "bigger Inquisitor/Maller/Prophecy".
I understand this is "simple", but it really just dilutes something and is gonna strip some variety.
I understand. I do.
I see the urge to do it there.
But, really, try and make each cruiser/bc/bs stand out and not just simply be a "Bigger T1 Frigate of X" Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |

Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
388
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:29:00 -
[268] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:This does leave the Khanid tech two ships without tech one introductions, but we believe that the ships will still provide good options for Amarr T2 pilots. The fact that individual classes of missiles are significantly faster to train to than turrets helps this situation as well. We may be able to add more missile ships in the future, but for now we do feel that the plan of expanding Amarr drone options will result in a solid lineup of ships.
I do continue to welcome all of your opinions on the subject, as everything in an MMO like eve is always able to be changed. We're here to make the best game possible in partnership with the community, and although we may not always agree on every specific point we do welcome all your feedback.
My problem with Amarr drone ships is the following:
The first bonus is the usual +10% drone damage and hitpoints. What's the second bonus? Unless it's a TD ship, probably -10% laser cap usage which is a real curse. So what options are there?
a) Make the second bonus 5% laser damage per level. That's better, but damage types are somewhat limited and active tanking won't work due to heavy cap drain. In contrast, Khanid ships are meant to give full damage type selection and allow strong active tanking because laser ships are lacking precisely in these areas.
b) Make the second bonus 5% HAM damage per level. That gives full damage type selection - but why not just make it a full blown HAM ship for consistency at this point?
This is as far as the Prophecy is concerned at least.
As far as the new destroyer goes, drones seem a subpar weapon system for the destroyer role. Mostly because they are slow. A drone speed bonus was found to have some problems when applied to the Maulus.
I just don't understand how drone ships can be seen as the better design path to take. Rockets & Heavy Assault Missiles make more sense given the t2 lineup and naturally complement laser ships.
Plus, who actually wanted drone ships? I've yet to see a player request that, while I've seen plenty of people that wanted to see more missle ship options in the Amarr lineup. In particular a torpedo BS is regularly requested. Drakes & Tengus online: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1208/fbaugust.jpg |

Hustomte
The Scope
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:51:00 -
[269] - Quote
LORE is bothering me.
1) Caldari is tied closer to Amarr so missiles over drones would be a plus right? And Minmatar are closer to Gallente so them having drones makes more sense.
2) The stealth bomber is going to need to be redesigned since it can't be based off a logi frig hull.
3) Then again the Vengeance having rockets always seemed like the wrong hull to me as well... ...Signature... |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:52:00 -
[270] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote:How you should be viewing this is not as "oh cool newbies can get into new ships!" but rather "oh no vets are going to exploit the everloving hell out of these new ships," as the second is going to have more impact on the game as a whole and more of an impact on the new player experience, as they quickly realize that on top of off-grid boosters, they are facing veterans with multiple pocket healers and no viable way to lose their ship.
I genuinely cannot fathom a reason you could see this change as a net positive. This is what I think about the new logi frigs: - They're heavy, which leads to being slow even with a prop mod. - They're about as agile as a brick. - They have extremely short range RR (close enough for heavy neuts to **** your day up) - They don't have a slot for ECCM - They don't have a slot for a cap booster - They don't have the fittings for fitting RRs, a prop mod, and any significant buffer. - They have enormous sig radiuses. - They have no real offensive power Calling this a "pocket healer" is just a bit too much of a stretch for me to let slide. I mean, unless you think a level 1 cleric is going to do anything meaningful in a fight between level 80 warriors. -Liang
-Please indicate to me a situation in which a logistics frigate would be in hostile heavy neut range. -They are heavy for a frigate and agility will mean little at the range you will be operating at and behind heavy tackle. -You need ECM on the field to have to worry about ECCM. ECM is not something present very often in small gang or solo situations (especially nano gangs) as you need all available DPS to hit your target and move or tackle and move. -Cap booster is irrelevant as anyone who is piloting these will never be in neut range. -Sig and speed tank called, they say a frigate with a signature radius of 30 is difficult to kill when they are at speed at range. -Their signature radius is in line with every other frigate (read: small) -Logisitics don't need offensive power? I don't even know what you are talking about here.
If you consider a pilot that is two weeks old transferring 100 raw hp a second to a heavy tackle ship with a resistance bonus miniscule, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Even assuming a terrible fit or a t1 ship with 66% omniresist, that is an effective tank of 300 paper DPS (assuming all dps is applied). With no diminishing returns on transfers, my three newbie logi set up will tank 900 paper DPS, and if I am not flying like an idiot I can tank much more (as not all DPS will be applied).
Your response will naturally be "lol just alpha through it!", which is kinda my point.
I also don't think you grasp the concept of tanking through anything other than EFT numbers (hint: paper DPS is higher than applied dps in 90% of situations) |
|

Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
172
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:53:00 -
[271] - Quote
I kind of hope the Prophecy and Maller do become missile boats. We don't have any T1 armour tanking missile sluggers and a RoF missile bonused Prohecy with 6 launchers vs a HAM Drake would be very interesting. |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 16:57:00 -
[272] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Maliatida wrote:Frigates keeping transversal at speed at 25km+ away are not viable targets for virtually anything that you can solo in.. stopped reading at this point... there are boat loads of ships that can do this... curse. ANY DRONE boat. and so on... just because you have a fav solo frig you might not beable to take out a logi frig with does not mean that you cant... you CHOOSE not too... which IMO is not mine or CCP problem.
You heard it here, all you really need to do is that out your solo Curse and drone boats and hope you don't have to go to any small deadspace plexes, or run into anything that isn't a frigate gang with logistics.
Edit: Sorry, I'll be less pithy. Curses are not very good solo ships, and even in contexts where they can be used effectively they are incredibly expensive relative to t1 frigates. Drone boats suffer from low applied DPS to begin with and any frigate pilot who has ever fought a drone boat knows how easy it is to kill the drones. |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1141

|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:02:00 -
[273] - Quote
Hustomte wrote: 2) The stealth bomber is going to need to be redesigned since it can't be based off a logi frig hull.
Why not? |
|

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2767
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:06:00 -
[274] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: You heard it here, all you really need to do is get out your solo Curse and drone boats or anything with large neuts, or ECM, or any semblance of speed to prevent a perfect transversal, or anything with light missiles and target painters, or anything with long webs, or any sensor damp platform, or......
Fixed that for you. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1952
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:23:00 -
[275] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: -Please indicate to me a situation in which a logistics frigate would be in hostile heavy neut range. -Cap booster is irrelevant as anyone who is piloting these will never be in neut range. -You need ECM on the field to have to worry about ECCM. ECM is not something present very often in small gang or solo situations (especially nano gangs) as you need all available DPS to hit your target and move or tackle and move.
They don't have the 70km optimal range of T2 logistics. According to the OP, they've got a T2 RR range of 28km - which means that they'll likely be in range of someone fielding heavy neuts if there are heavy neuts on the field. Assuming that they sit at exactly 28.2km the entire fight is simply foolish. Battlefields are very fluid and it will be very easy to partition the battlefield with neutralizers and other ewar. And once they smacked by a stray neut - even once - their ability to rep is harmed for a very long time (as far as frig fights go).
Furthermore, it's not like heavy neuts are the only danger here. There's an almost arbitrary number of ways to CC a logi frig out of the fight. ECM ships (and ewar ships in general) is and and always will be a threat to logistics ships. If you think it's reasonable for gangs to be bringing logi frigs, I contend it's reasonable for them to bring the newly boosted Griffin or Maulus.
But in the end, even if neutralization wasn't a factor at all, 30km is just really close for a fat slow frigate to be. There are innumerable ways for even frigates (never mind cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships) to reach out and vaporize people at 30km. I mean, without relying on everyone's newfound drone bays.
Quote: -They are heavy for a frigate and agility will mean little at the range you will be operating at and behind heavy tackle. -Sig and speed tank called, they say a frigate with a signature radius of 30 is difficult to kill when they are at speed at range. -Their signature radius is in line with every other frigate (read: small)
Well, so the thing about it is that they're heavy for their ship class and thus will be very slow on top of their already terrible agility. On top of that, they don't really have the slots to fit nanos/overdrives to do anything about it. Combine this fact with the fact that they basically don't have any transversal (if AB fit) or have a battlecruiser sized sig radius (if MWD fit) and they're just a paper target sitting at range.
Seriously man, I've got battlecruisers faster and more agile than these things.
Quote: If you consider a pilot that is two weeks old transferring 100 raw hp a second to a heavy tackle ship with a resistance bonus miniscule, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Even assuming a terrible fit or a t1 ship with 66% omniresist, that is an effective tank of 300 paper DPS (assuming all dps is applied). With no diminishing returns on transfers, my three newbie logi set up will tank 900 paper DPS, and if I am not flying like an idiot I can tank much more (as not all DPS will be applied).
Your response will naturally be "lol just alpha through it!", which is kinda my point.
So this doesn't even make any sense: - A two week old isn't going to have the fitting or cap skills to do for any length of time. - A 900 DPS tank is kinda meaningless when talking about frigates. They don't have the HP buffer for that to matter. I guarantee 4 DPS frigates can volley through that RR without a problem. Assuming they don't just all break off and snap up the logi kills first. What, you only want to talk about a 4v1?
Quote: I also don't think you grasp the concept of tanking through anything other than EFT numbers (hint: paper DPS is higher than applied dps in 90% of situations)
You know, I've put out FIVE PVP videos featuring this exact concept and I've got the content (but not disk space) to make 2-3 more. But I'm sure you know more about this than me. According to Battleclinic, we live in the same area. Why don't you drop by Amamake and school me in it? :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
42
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:25:00 -
[276] - Quote
I would prefer the both answer for Amarr in terms of drones and missiles.
I would love to see dedicated rocket, HAM and Torpedo ships.
Keep drones with the large drone bays on the EWAR ships, where neuts take up our highslots anyway.
Have other Amarr ships such as the Armageddon have or keep a balanced flight of one set of drones.
So the Crucifier would be the Frigate Drone boat. The Arbitrator the Cruiser, and add a new 4th battleship. (The Gallente and Minmatar can get an EWAR BS too.) No need for a Destroyer or BC, EWAR/Drone ship obviously.
The new destroyer would be rockets and the Prophecy would be HAMs unless you want are planning on adding a 4th BC.
For the Amarr missiles ships you would have, the Tormentor (or Inquisitor if you flip the hulls, name wise makes sense to me), the new Dessy would be rockets, the Maller, the Prophecy be HAMs, and you just need more BS hulls to make this work. Then when you get to it, adding a 2nd Marauder with Torps would be AWESOME.
In general I would love for you to add more hulls, I know art is a bottleneck. But at each level frig, crusier, BS. I would love to see, short range, long range, alt weapon, EWAR, and logistics. With as much racial flavor as you can throw in.
A dedicated subscriber can dream can't he?(er I mean she)
|

Cahvus
Confederated Armed Traders High Rollers
23
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:27:00 -
[277] - Quote
I don't meant to beat a dead horse Fozzie but I seriously think you need to reconsider range. One of the most important tanking staples for frigates is their speed. If you are flying on a frigate roam there is no way you would fly in a train formation (everyone anchor on logi/fc). Because of their limited range (28km), you are putting the pilots of these new ships into a very difficult position that their cruiser flying counterparts do not have to face- Do you: A. Have everyone anchor within ~25 km of the logi frigates, making your fleet a perfect target for stealth bombers and simultaneously allowing your enemy to simple negate your transversal and fly parallel to your FrigTrain. Somewhat limits speed tanking because not all ships go the same speed, and everyone is anchored within range of the logi. B. Have everyone do their normal speed tank. But wait, this is a fight, not everyone is going to be at the same optimals/ranges! This means the logi either has to turn on its afterburner (which sucks out it's cap which would otherwise be used for running reps) or their MWD (sucking even more cap plus giving them sig bloom, painting a huge bullseye on an already enticing target C. Do your normal thing and hope everyone stays within 28km of you, otherwise tough luck for them
It's rather early for me so if anything doesn't make sense/isn't a coherent thought please show me and I will try and clarify. Hopefully the tone does not come off as rude or confrontation as that is not my intention at all. I am super excited for these new ships, I just want them to be viable and useful so that we can start educating and utilizing newer players, and welcome them into an aspect of PVP that is my personal favorite! |

Themick Mccoy
33
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:28:00 -
[278] - Quote
How good would these really be though?
With these frigates, would they actually matter in a fight? Look at how the t1 logi cruisers(please look at these!) handle, they are basically a joke. I see the t1 frigates ending up going the same route unless cap usage is seriously curtailed. Another point to go along with this is that these are suppose to be a gateway into logi for newer players, or at least one would presume so. The problem there is that a new player will have a low in game skill set, and probably therefore be so inefficient at logi that they wouldn't be repping for much/running out of cap very quickly.(basically, for a newbie to actually do well in these ships, a further tweeking of the cap usage bonus may be needed)
Another thing to look at is the raw output of the rep modules themselves. These mods, even with the ship bonus, seem to be fairly weak, to the point a small number of the higher dps frigates can quickly over take the rep amount. This does however not fully take into account resists, but on frigates in general, resists wont be spectacular.
In my opinion it has a good chance of making new players shy away from logi at the onset if they get destroyed in these things, unless you guys do a little more tweeking with a low sp pilot in mind. My new goal is to bubble a super....but who is going to kill it for me? |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:30:00 -
[279] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Maliatida wrote: You heard it here, all you really need to do is get out your solo Curse and drone boats or anything with large neuts, or ECM, or any semblance of speed to prevent a perfect transversal, or anything with light missiles and target painters, or anything with long webs, or any sensor damp platform, or......
Fixed that for you.
The large neuts thing has been thrown out repeatedly, but there is really not a single situation in which a logistics ship with an effective range equal to that of a heavy neut would ever be in heavy neut range.
If your logistics is moving in with your tackle or heavy dps brawl down a battleship, you probably need a new pilot.
Scram + Web ensures nothing that the logistics pilot doesn't want near him will ever get near him. ECM, as I've said before, is not a staple of small gang or solo work. Light missiles do absolutely absymmal damage.
Sensor damp platform reduces the range at which they can repair, but again in my example you'd need to fit at least two and still have enough tank and DPS to brawl down the primary ship (can't think of a ship that would allow this).
You are listing roles of force multipliers that require multiple ships, multiple pilots, and specific ship types (some T2 cruiser hulls? Really?) to fight against what literally every single person who plays EVE could put together in two weeks of training.
You are also discounting that the majority of the ships you are listing cannot go into a majority of deadspace plexes. |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:44:00 -
[280] - Quote
I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Edit: And before the "oh, so it's 4v1 then", it is one operator with multiple accounts and multiple ships. The simplicity and cost of these frigates makes it so simple to set up a multibox camp it's crazy. It's why I prefaced my original complaint with the pros/cons of multi-box PVP as it stands today. Combine that with how quickly you can set these up, and you have the genocide of mining barges you saw immediately after the destroyer buff all over again. Small barrier to entry = more people doing it. More people doing it = worse for solo or small gang work.
The only offsetting thing I can imagine is making them significantly more expensive than they currently are or have a higher threshold to get into (or both). Otherwise I will never leave station without at least three RR frigate alts, just like I never leave station without off grid boosting. |
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:50:00 -
[281] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot.
/shrug
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Kithian Hastos
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:52:00 -
[282] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;) Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
I was going to because you took away my drone frigate, but now I have a because it's going to be the Tristan. |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:57:00 -
[283] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote: I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot. /shrug -Liang
See my edit. There is already an issue with virtually needing multiple accounts to do anything solo, and this isn't going to make it any better. |

Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
180
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:57:00 -
[284] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote: I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot. /shrug -Liang
^THIS
they are FIGATES
hop in dessie and just voley trough them one volley at a time
Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |

Traykoff
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 17:58:00 -
[285] - Quote
Yes! Please do implement this. Would be a good addition to the wolf packs  |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:01:00 -
[286] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: See my edit ...
The only offsetting thing I can imagine is making them significantly more expensive than they currently are or have a higher threshold to get into (or both). Otherwise I will never leave station without at least three RR frigate alts, just like I never leave station without off grid boosting.
3 RR frigates is not something I'm going to overly worry about. Feel free - real PVPers will enjoy the killmails.
-Liang
Ed: Also, I think you DRAMATICALLY underestimate the amount of time and effort is going to be involved in keeping up a fleet of a dozen logi frigates. They're paper thin and even in the best case, setting up that RR is going to take a SUBSTANTIAL amount of time.
I think you'd honestly be better off with Vexors and RR drones. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:04:00 -
[287] - Quote
I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.
I think I can manage a few RR pilots. |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:13:00 -
[288] - Quote
Maliatida wrote:I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.
I think I can manage a few RR pilots.
Edit: Really, they are trivially priced frigates that can use equally cheap meta mods in free (<900ksp) clones. If you want to try to volley the ~1m ISK ship I don't care about in your significantly more expensive ship while I tackle you in whatever ship I care to kill you in, you are more than welcome.
Hahaha, I think you're dramatically underestimating the amount of time and cost of setting up 20 frigs to RR someone. But hey, feel free to bring your fleet of 20 logi frigs to Amamake. We'll rumble. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2767
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:14:00 -
[289] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: 3 RR frigates is not something I'm going to overly worry about. Feel free - real PVPers will enjoy the killmails.
QFT. I love these things, but really I'm just excited to kill them as much as I am to fly them. There are so many ships out there designed to kill frigates (including other frigates) that don't see much use these days because of lack of targets. With the prevalence of gang compositions that can tank gate guns in lowsec (in other words, not frigates) fast tackle is seen more and more infrequently in favor of faster locking battlecruiser gangs. There are fast anti-tackle ships (like the Claw / Taranis and now their tech 1 counterparts) that don't see much use these days (they are bested in 1vs1 by dessies and pirate frigs), that now should have a plentiful food supply once again given the wealth of useful tech 1 frigates added to the line-up.
Logi frigates will only serve to stir up the doldrums in small gang PvP and give a lot of surrounding ships from E-war frigs and combat interceptors, all the way up to Vagabonds and smartbombing Battleships, new life and a new role in combat besides just popping the occasional Stiletto or Malediction.
This paranoia about them breaking the game is completely misplaced. They were intentionally designed to be at the bottom of the food chain in terms of survivability, even Griffins can serve as a greater force multiplier in fleets and operate at much further effective range, and I see them die in droves every single day. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
|

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:25:00 -
[290] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Griffins
Speaking of which, a fleet of a dozen of these would be really infuriating as a solo PVPer. I guess I'd have to fit up an Ishtar?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:28:00 -
[291] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote:I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.
I think I can manage a few RR pilots.
Edit: Really, they are trivially priced frigates that can use equally cheap meta mods in free (<900ksp) clones. If you want to try to volley the ~1m ISK ship I don't care about in your significantly more expensive ship while I tackle you in whatever ship I care to kill you in, you are more than welcome. Hahaha, I think you're dramatically underestimating the amount of time and cost of setting up 20 frigs to RR someone. But hey, feel free to bring your fleet of 20 logi frigs to Amamake. We'll rumble. :) -Liang
Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).
No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.
You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem. |

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:35:00 -
[292] - Quote
I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.
The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.
I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.
Thoughts? |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:39:00 -
[293] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).
No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.
You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem.
You can feel free to multibox 3 logi frigs and a main and I'll be walking away with 4 kills.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Ryelek d'Entari
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:40:00 -
[294] - Quote
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but...
The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively.
However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead?
Here's the current list:
- Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
- Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
- Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)
Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay.
(also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group) |

Maliatida
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:52:00 -
[295] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote: Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).
No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.
You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem.
You can feel free to multibox 3 logi frigs and a main and I'll be walking away with 4 kills. -Liang
You should really read before responding.
The issue is that the logi frigs would not need to be piloted. Set assist, start reps, orbit, done.
You've now set up a situation in which a single player, with minimal investment, can shut down a deadspace area with ease to anything short of a significantly larger group. |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1957
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 18:58:00 -
[296] - Quote
Maliatida wrote: You should really read before responding.
The issue is that the logi frigs would not need to be piloted. Set assist, start reps, orbit, done.
You've now set up a situation in which a single player, with minimal investment, can shut down a deadspace area with ease to anything short of a significantly larger group.
And that's the thing about it. You set assist, start reps, orbit, and then the entire battlefield changes. They're slow and easily kited. They cap out easily and are vulnerable to neuts and ewar. They're paper thin. They're free kills. And after that, so are you. But no matter how you slice it, arguing for nerfs on the basis of 4-20 vs 1 is simply madness. And meaningless.
But whatever, you've said your piece. Everyone is going to fire up 5-20 accounts and multibox fleets of logi frigs for solo PVP. So Sayeth The Great Maliatida!!!! 
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1146

|
Posted - 2012.08.21 19:01:00 -
[297] - Quote
Ryelek d'Entari wrote:Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but... The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively. However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead? Here's the current list:
- Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
- Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
- Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)
Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay. (also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group)
Yep, those rewards have not been updated in quite a while. I'll double check tomorrow to make sure our NPE team has a defect in the system for it (I think they already do). |
|

Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1226
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 19:18:00 -
[298] - Quote
And to think I was called crazy when I was training people on the concept of frigate RR/logistics...
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |

Metal Icarus
Endless Destruction
251
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 19:52:00 -
[299] - Quote
With these new frigates being introduced, a new tutorial mission should be introduced.
The frigate logi rescue mission!
Mission: To rescue an NPC squad from pirates!
it would be an awesome introduction to logistics from the get-go!
|

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 19:55:00 -
[300] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.
The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.
I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.
Thoughts?
Alright some numbers. If I didn't miss any skills 3 small remote armor reps on the proposed ships would produce 120 hit points per second of rep amount . 3 small remote armor reps unbonused would produce 80 hit points per second. 5 light drones with a 20% per level bonus would repair 35 hitpoints per second. This would leave a difference of 5 hitpoints per second. You could solve this by changing the base repair amount of T2 light drones to be 16 instead of 14. This would make them produce the same rep amount per second. Or tweak the rep cycle vs rep amount.
Please help us battle the homogeneity of these frigates. Seriously 256k requirement is nothing compared to the long train into logistics. Again Drones V will help in every Gallente ship!
|
|

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:02:00 -
[301] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.
The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.
I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.
Thoughts? Alright some numbers. If I didn't miss any skills 3 small remote armor reps on the proposed ships would produce 120 hit points per second of rep amount . 3 small remote armor reps unbonused would produce 80 hit points per second. 5 light drones with a 20% per level bonus would repair 35 hitpoints per second. This would leave a difference of 5 hitpoints per second. You could solve this by changing the base repair amount of T2 light drones to be 16 instead of 14. This would make them produce the same rep amount per second. Or tweak the rep cycle vs rep amount. Please help us battle the homogeneity of these frigates. Seriously 256k requirement is nothing compared to the long train into logistics. Again Drones V will help in every Gallente ship! I agree, i would like to see the navitas a drone ship (still), but the idea of a drone logi ship would be unique and fun |

Martin0
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:18:00 -
[302] - Quote
i'm happy i have about 60 navitas in dodixie.... |

Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
251
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:18:00 -
[303] - Quote
I was going to make the suggestion that the Amarr and Gallente get drone logi frigates and Minmatar and Caldari use repper modules, however, that doesn't really work since they tank the same way.
What about this idea:
- Amarr uses Remote Armor Reppers - Caldari uses Remote Shield Reppers - Gallente uses Armor Repper Drones - Minmatar uses Shield Repper Drones
Each race has a distinct repair method... but the more I think about it, the more unusual it gets and the less I like it. |

Reppyk
The Black Shell
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:23:00 -
[304] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Turrets are 100% a viable and correct weapon system for Caldari pilots. They have turret ships at all levels in every tech level. > Navy cruisers ? > Navy BS ? > Pirate ship with hybrids and caldari skills at the fregate/cruiser/battleship level ? > T3 ? (the hybrid tengu doesnt exist) > Dread ? (the single turret point is a joke) > Titan ? (hi) And I would say, what about a caldari/hybrid HAC but people don't like trolls. :(
Caldari/hybrids are stuck, at "high level" to the harpy and the rokh. A terrible lineup, like the missile+amarr Khanid one.
Anyway. For these fregates. Bantam = burst Navitas = Inquisitor
This is bad. Make'em different.
Bantam = longer range Burst = the reps are more efficient (ie cap stable with 4 heads, instead of a bantam and the 3 heads).
Oh. And don't forget to add an agression timer when someone is remoting an agressor. Logistics are game-breaking and are why station games are so boring. |

Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:25:00 -
[305] - Quote
Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level Role Bonus: 50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7 Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric Signature radius: 36 Cargo capacity: 280
Would this be really insane or loads of fun? |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:30:00 -
[306] - Quote
This could be a chance to get gallente toward drones as a main weapon source, like missiles for caldari, projectiles for minmatar, and lasers for amarr |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
54
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:32:00 -
[307] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level Role Bonus: 50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7 Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric Signature radius: 36 Cargo capacity: 280
Would this be really insane or loads of fun? The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better, it is only T1 after all |

Zedd Al'thor
The Hatchery Team Liquid
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:32:00 -
[308] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maliatida wrote: I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.
Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.
You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.
I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.
What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?
Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.
Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot. /shrug -Liang
I think you missed part of his point. You don't have to pay for the account. If it can be trained in 30 days, just use a free 51 day account, and don't sub it at the end. It will cost nothing. And since this is eve, people will do it because they can.
Ignoring the extreme cases is why we have problems like stabbed afk alts farming fw plexes, tracking titans, goons "exploiting" the original fw changes, t2 gangs links (because the t1 versions weren't op enough), falcons, old jump bridges and the list goes on. Saddly it seems like CCP's game design only focuses on "they this would be cool" rather than looking at the consequences of the intended change.
On the surface logi frigs look fun & i can think of lots of potential uses, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. |

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 20:48:00 -
[309] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level Role Bonus: 50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7 Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric Signature radius: 36 Cargo capacity: 280
Would this be really insane or loads of fun? The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all
To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.
My suggestion would be:
Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)
With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones.
|

Reppyk
The Black Shell
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 21:03:00 -
[310] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones. Rep drones work even when jammed/damped/neut'd. |
|

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 21:12:00 -
[311] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones. Rep drones work even when jammed/damped/neut'd.
Did you read any other part of my post ?-)
5 unbonused light drones would only provide 20 hitpoints every second. The current proposal 3 T2 reps provide 120 hitpoints every second. That's a 6x difference! Even with the jammed/damped/neut'd argument the ship would be totally useless compared to the rest. Again I suggested a 66%/33% split for modules/drones. All the same arguments still apply for the majority of the repping it can do. |

Sudelle
NoVeL ConCEptS Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 21:21:00 -
[312] - Quote
Any chance of making a "Sisters of Eve" Logi ship instead with no racial frigate skill required, but requires Logi skills to get into instead. And then taking these ships and making them something else?
Amarr - rocket / missile Galante - dedicated drone Minmatar - rocket / missile Caldari - smartbomb? lol (sorry, i just couldn't think of anything they don't already have)
|

Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
174
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 21:29:00 -
[313] - Quote
Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)
I'd prefer this to what has been suggested. At least it's different from the others and seems as we're promoting "Drones all the things" for Gallente ships. Am I bothered that it requires more SP to use than the others? No. |

Alara IonStorm
3011
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 21:31:00 -
[314] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote: I think you missed part of his point. You don't have to pay for the account. If it can be trained in 30 days, just use a free 51 day account, and don't sub it at the end. It will cost nothing. And since this is eve, people will do it because they can.
You can't duel box a trial account so you might as well fly it on your main. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 21:38:00 -
[315] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level Role Bonus: 50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7 Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric Signature radius: 36 Cargo capacity: 280
Would this be really insane or loads of fun? The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones. My suggestion would be: Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!) With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones. If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 5% it will equal the same |

Zedd Al'thor
The Hatchery Team Liquid
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 21:41:00 -
[316] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote: I think you missed part of his point. You don't have to pay for the account. If it can be trained in 30 days, just use a free 51 day account, and don't sub it at the end. It will cost nothing. And since this is eve, people will do it because they can.
You can't duel box a trial account so you might as well fly it on your main.
51 day account isn't a trial account, and it is free. Send buddy invite to self (21 day trial account), buy 1 plex to upgrade account (now 51 day full privilege account) and receive 1 plex as a "thank you" for bring a "friend" to eve.
It costs nothing as long as you have the isk for the inital plex. And if you can't afford the first plex i recommend you go afk some fw plexes for a few hours. |

Alara IonStorm
3011
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 22:06:00 -
[317] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote: 51 day account isn't a trial account, and it is free. Send buddy invite to self (21 day trial account), buy 1 plex to upgrade account (now 51 day full privilege account) and receive 1 plex as a "thank you" for bringing a "friend" to eve.
That is the problem not entry level logistics.
Zedd Al'thor wrote: It costs nothing as long as you have the isk for the inital plex. And if you can't afford the first plex i recommend you go afk some fw minor plexes for a few hours (which can be done with a noob merlin with less than 8 hrs training...).
And of course this.
Bad game mechanics shouldn't stand in the way of fun new ships like these. |

Zedd Al'thor
The Hatchery Team Liquid
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:02:00 -
[318] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote: 51 day account isn't a trial account, and it is free. Send buddy invite to self (21 day trial account), buy 1 plex to upgrade account (now 51 day full privilege account) and receive 1 plex as a "thank you" for bringing a "friend" to eve.
That is the problem not entry level logistics. Zedd Al'thor wrote: It costs nothing as long as you have the isk for the inital plex. And if you can't afford the first plex i recommend you go afk some fw minor plexes for a few hours (which can be done with a noob merlin with less than 8 hrs training...).
And of course this. Bad game mechanics shouldn't stand in the way of fun new ships like these.
I agree that it is a problem, but you can't introduce a new ship/dynamic into eve with out considering the ecosystem it will be used in. That's the point I was making earlier about extremes. Right now it's a fun ship because we are just looking at the ship and not all the ways it will be used.
Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, POS Repping & Triage Carriers? A maxed triage carrier with 2 capital remote shield reps can repair 2640 hp/s If a logi frig can repair 120 hp/s (a number someone else put forward earlier) you only need 22 logi frigs to equal the repping power of 1 triage carrier.......WTF!! Since the logi frigs have a 28km rep range they can sit outside a large pos and rep and be afk.
Months of training & over 2 bil replaced by 1 month of training & ~200 mil...(Not to mention, CCP makes no money on this account)
Some may say "Well a single bombing run will destroy all those logi frigs" as a counter, but who cares. They are cheap, disposable & everyone can have multiple accounts & you can afk pos rep........
So you might say "Bad game mechanics shouldn't stand in the way of fun new ships like these" but yes they should. Anything less is shoddy gane development & obviously CCP hasn't learnt their lesson yet. You can't make changes with out looking at everything or EVE will become more broken than it already is. |

MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
533
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:10:00 -
[319] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level Role Bonus: 50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7 Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric Signature radius: 36 Cargo capacity: 280
Would this be really insane or loads of fun? The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones. My suggestion would be: Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!) With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones. If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 10% it will be the exact same
ccp muppet already said no to having drones because of the skills you would need... remember these are supposed to be noobish ships... wait for a tech II version for use skilled players...
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:10:00 -
[320] - Quote
So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed. |
|

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:16:00 -
[321] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level Role Bonus: 50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7 Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric Signature radius: 36 Cargo capacity: 280
Would this be really insane or loads of fun? The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones. My suggestion would be: Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!) With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones. If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 10% it will be the exact same ccp muppet already said no to having drones because of the skills you would need... remember these are supposed to be noobish ships... wait for a tech II version for use skilled players...
See my early comments about changing the skill requirements of the light drones. That one change will put them 4-5 days of training for T1 and T2. More than reasonable for a noob to try. |

Kraschyn Thek'athor
Marquie-X Corp Ewoks
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:22:00 -
[322] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:[quote=Alara IonStorm][quote=Zedd Al'thor]
Months of training & over 2 bil replaced by 1 month of training & ~200 mil...(Not to mention, CCP makes no money on this account)
Hmm... more a pro than a contra argument for me. Motivating people to lock in an do something should allways win. Spirit of Multiplayer Gaming. 22x Ospreys are doing the same for a bit more ISK nowadays, so Heaven will not fall upon us.
At the end, mass > quality. If you get 22 People do something, it has to count. To be equal with 22x people by investing ten times as much ISK... is a good deal. From all the secondary nice things owning an carrier not speaking. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:23:00 -
[323] - Quote
CCP Fozzie should reconsider about no drones, we got shafted with the Tristan this is a chance to make up |

Zedd Al'thor
The Hatchery Team Liquid
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:38:00 -
[324] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed.
Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures. |

Zedd Al'thor
The Hatchery Team Liquid
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:42:00 -
[325] - Quote
Kraschyn Thek'athor wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote:[quote=Alara IonStorm][quote=Zedd Al'thor]
Months of training & over 2 bil replaced by 1 month of training & ~200 mil...(Not to mention, CCP makes no money on this account)
Hmm... more a pro than a contra argument for me. Motivating people to lock in an do something should allways win. Spirit of Multiplayer Gaming. 22x Ospreys are doing the same for a bit more ISK nowadays, so Heaven will not fall upon us. At the end, mass > quality. If you get 22 People do something, it has to count. To be equal with 22x people by investing ten times as much ISK... is a good deal. From all the secondary nice things owning an carrier not speaking.
But as it stands now, its not going to be 22 guys getting together enjoying EVE's "wonderful" PVP content, it will be 5 guys quadboxing while watching a movie on netflix because repping structures is boring. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.21 23:46:00 -
[326] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed. Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures. Because logistic cruisers can't do that also, just not in 51 days |

Agnar Volta
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 01:07:00 -
[327] - Quote
Because of Falcon,
Because of heals,
Because of blobs,
Because of Titans,
Now a new villain:
Because of goons...
EVE is bigger then your point of view. No 00 fleet will be full of logi frigs. They can be 3000 EHP, how hard is to kill that? You can instapop them with almost anything but other frig.
This is a good addition to new players, and in this case, not even Malchanis law apply. They are only good for noobs. |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 02:05:00 -
[328] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.
My suggestion would be:
Navitas: Frigate skill bonuses: 20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)
With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones.
If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 10% it will be the exact same ccp muppet already said no to having drones because of the skills you would need... remember these are supposed to be noobish ships... wait for a tech II version for use skilled players... See my early comments about changing the skill requirements of the light drones. That one change will put them 4-5 days of training for T1 and T2. More than reasonable for a noob to try. If the ship is setup for use with 4 drones and the 30% increase to rep amount the only skill change would be "repair drone operation" would only have to require drones I rather than drones V. The rep difference between T1 drones and T2 drones would be 97.3/s with gallente frigates iv, repair drone operation iv, and T2 small remote armor repairers. T2 Repair drone operation V, Gallente frigates iv, and T2 small armor repairers is 102.6/s. Max skills is 107/s. All the other ships repair 108/s
|

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
187
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 02:57:00 -
[329] - Quote
Personally I'm excited by this proposal.
As long as CCP keep the tank on these ships at a decently easily alpha'd level, I think it will be a fantastic addition to the dynamic of frigate combat.
ECM is a really bad mechanic and is hurtful for the game imo. But these changes...
A couple of battlecruisers getting pinned down by a t1 frigate gang and devoured... well that's the beauty of this game :) Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1967
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 03:04:00 -
[330] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote: Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
You cannot be serious. Logi frigs in no way replace triage Carriers.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
|

xxxAlloxxx
Origin. Black Legion.
34
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 03:26:00 -
[331] - Quote
Love it, already planning how my future frig gangs will be setup.
As long as there is care taken in how these are implemented and it dos not get out of hand I think it will be a very nice addition to the game. Newest Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02OAZ3W0fXs |

Zedd Al'thor
The Hatchery Team Liquid
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 04:15:00 -
[332] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote: Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
You cannot be serious. Logi frigs in no way replace triage Carriers. -Liang
You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making.
The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?"
The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers.
Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers.
My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004 |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1969
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 04:20:00 -
[333] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making. The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?" The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers. Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers. My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004
No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
55
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 04:23:00 -
[334] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote:You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making. The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?" The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers. Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers. My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004 No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now? -Liang Could it be that despite being cheep and quick to train it is not practical? Your statements are understood better and easier than his arguments. |

Laktos
Gunpoint Diplomacy
187
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 04:44:00 -
[335] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zedd Al'thor wrote:You are right R&K are not going to be using logi frigs in place of Triage Archons in their next video, but that's not the point I was making. The question I asked was "Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?" & "What happens when the use of logi frigs is taken to an extreme?" The example I gave was for afk structure repping with logi frigs in place of triage carriers. Free 51 day accounts, cheap disposable logi platform & quick training times allow ~200 mil worth of logi frigs to afk rep structures which is currently the domain of triage carriers. My argument can be found in these links: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1828885#post1828885https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1829004#post1829004 No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now? -Liang
Have to agree with Liang on this (rare for me).
Don't forget the key difference between these and a carriers. The tank. Sure perhaps you could get a bunch of these frigs together to do the job of a triage carrier. But warp in an alpha fleet and it will be like cooking popcorn. And in a matter of moments, poof, the logi frigate menace is gone and you have an epic looking killboard to brag about :D Latest PVP Video: Perseverance
Sard Caid does not endorse this message. |

Selaya Ataru
Pink Kitten Kommando To The Moon
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 04:59:00 -
[336] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed. Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
Tell me how 10.000 people shouldnt be able to rep structures.
You are either a very, very bad troll, or you have serious mental problems.
|

Thryson
Bondage Goat Zombie
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 06:38:00 -
[337] - Quote
T2 cloaky logi frigs would be a hell of a boost to the lacking black ops usage and might be worth looking into. |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
264
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 08:32:00 -
[338] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:No, I understood your argument perfectly. But that's absolutely ludicrous. If that's such a good fleet doctrine, why aren't we seeing POSpreys doing that right now?-Liang Head of nail, meet hammer.
Try to run the numbers. The sheer amount of POSpreys, let alone proposed logistic frigates, needed to equal or surpass the output of a single dirt cheap triage carrier will probably make your brain explode 
There is not a single entity in Eve that would use 1000 people to do what a handful can do in the same time .. not even Goons (they supposedly do stuff for lulz and POS/module repping is NOT fun by any definition of the word).
|
|

CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
904

|
Posted - 2012.08.22 10:01:00 -
[339] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ryelek d'Entari wrote:Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but... The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively. However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead? Here's the current list:
- Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
- Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
- Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
- Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)
Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay. (also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group) Yep, those rewards have not been updated in quite a while. I'll double check tomorrow to make sure our New Player Experience team has a defect in the system for it (I think they already do).
I already have a defect on me regarding this We definitely plan to replace the old NPE given ships by the new ORE frigate when it comes out yes. |
|

Neotin Nahrain
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 10:54:00 -
[340] - Quote
A slight problem might be that this change is carried out at the same time as the destroyers re-balance would be. So when everyone would be trying the new and improved destroyers defined as anti frigate platform - this would be the worst time to test t1 frigates. I.e. - no high hopes as it is.
My main problem with this change is the durability of t1 ships. It is acceptable to be in hurricane/drake. But almost everything under that (merlin is an exception) is pretty much free target for destroyers. Same with t1 logi cruisers - they are good in logi output but the moment anything spits on them - they die. If there were t2 logi frigates - now that would change stuff a lot more. Otherwise - kitsunes - best logi in frigate gangs. |
|

Desiderya
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
64
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 12:22:00 -
[341] - Quote
Neotin Nahrain wrote: But almost everything under that (merlin is an exception) is pretty much free target for destroyers.
No. It always depends on the setups pitted against each other. Destroyers have an edge, but they can be killed by a lone frigate as easily as they can chew through them. |

Tamiya Sarossa
Hedion University Amarr Empire
185
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 13:47:00 -
[342] - Quote
All I can say is that I'd much rather run into one of these logi frigs than a griffin when soloing, and that despite being pretty confident that they'll have a battlefield life expectancy similar to that of Terran marines I'll have a lot of fun flying them as well. |

Nexus Controller
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 15:42:00 -
[343] - Quote
Given the fitting requirements (PG/CPU), it looks like deadspace medium RR fits in the logistics frigates with MAPC's. Is this by design? Looks pretty good if so.
:) |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 19:38:00 -
[344] - Quote
Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP. |

Anaphylacti
Catalyst ops
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 20:22:00 -
[345] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP.
They've clearly shown how much they love pirates by wanting to make gate guns kill triage carriers in 4 1/2 minutes. |

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
143
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 20:35:00 -
[346] - Quote
Anaphylacti wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP. They've clearly shown how much they love pirates by wanting to make gate guns kill triage carriers in 4 1/2 minutes.
I can't believe I am doing this and defending Greyscale, but please keep up with the times:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1830800#post1830800 |

Alara IonStorm
3014
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 20:54:00 -
[347] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote: but please keep up with the times:
The times become much harder to keep up with when they are posted on page 40.
No dummy there is peace in the Middle East now. How could you have not read it, it was posted right here at the bottom of the fall style section. |

Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
144
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 21:29:00 -
[348] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote: but please keep up with the times:
The times become much harder to keep up with when they are posted on page 40. No dummy there is peace in the Middle East now. How could you have not read it, it was posted right here at the bottom of the fall style section.
I'm pretty sure Greyscale responded before page 40, although no one listened to him. And those shoes they are coming out with this fall are absolutely fabulous. What was that about the Middle East? |

Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
51
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 04:48:00 -
[349] - Quote
Zedd Al'thor wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed. Removing 51 day accounts doesn't get rid of the problem of logi frigs replacing triage carriers. The CFC has over 10,000 pilots, with very little training all of them will be able to fly logi frigs. If you have the numbers logi frigs are still better than triage carriers for repping structures.
And most them can already fly an osprey, which can literally do the same. If you have the numbers still do not waste 14 pilots to do the job that can be done by a single pilot. Opportunity cost are too high. Actually you should be able to just buy a triage carrier from the income 13 pilots can generate in one hour ;-) |

Anaphylacti
Catalyst ops
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 08:26:00 -
[350] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:Anaphylacti wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Hey what's up with the align times on these? I can just about travel with GCC in my incursus, taking only occasional structure damage, but these will probably die instantly. Not helped by the fact that they will most likely have GCC permanently.
How about some pirate love CCP. They've clearly shown how much they love pirates by wanting to make gate guns kill triage carriers in 4 1/2 minutes. I can't believe I am doing this and defending Greyscale, but please keep up with the times: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1830800#post1830800
ah yes shame on you for defending Greyscale but thank you for pointing this out to me. Maybe they do have a spot in their heart for pirates after all |
|

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 17:50:00 -
[351] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Don't you care about the fact that the Tormentor used to be the mining frigate so it breaks the pattern of mining frigates becoming logi frigates? Not really, no
This is why CCP devs best devs 
Besides, they wanted to make the tormentor into a minigeddon, and it does really look like the front of the geddon  "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |

CaleAdaire
Research Industry Mining and Support Gatekeepers Universe
53
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:59:00 -
[352] - Quote
soooo... T2 Logi frigs?
I'm bored... Let's shoot the rocks. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 06:39:00 -
[353] - Quote
I'm kinda sad though because the inquisitor looks MUCH nicer than the tormentor... |

Tub Chil
Heretic University Heretic Nation
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 07:38:00 -
[354] - Quote
I applaud this idea.
Also what about TII logistic frigs? please don't make me read 18 pages. |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1166

|
Posted - 2012.08.24 10:29:00 -
[355] - Quote
Tub Chil wrote:I applaud this idea.
Also what about TII logistic frigs? please don't make me read 18 pages.
We have no concrete plans to make a T2 logi frigate. It's an option we're keeping open in case we see the need in the future. |
|

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
12
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 10:54:00 -
[356] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Tub Chil wrote:I applaud this idea.
Also what about TII logistic frigs? please don't make me read 18 pages. We have no concrete plans to make a T2 logi frigate. It's an option we're keeping open in case we see the need in the future.
don't do it
please |

Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
101
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 12:25:00 -
[357] - Quote
A T2 logi frig would be fine.
You just can't whine about it ruining 1v1, because it would be 1v2, and the other party could also bring a Kitsune and it would actually be worse than if a T2 logi frig landed on grid. |

Usagi Toshiro
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 17:44:00 -
[358] - Quote
I think these frigates area a great idea! They will provide a great learning tool for the mechanics of RR fleets. RvB would use these daily and educate a new generation of pilots for the rigors of low/null sec fleet ops.
RvB usually runs Cruiser down for it's fleet engagements. The bigger ships being called primary first. The ability to RR these larger hulls would add a new level of tactics to our fights. It would allow FCs to fly a larger hull and stay on grid longer to call targets. This is a huge plus.
Now I know that logistics ships are called primary in many engagements and would expect no less. What it does bring to the table is new tactics and more ways to learn. This is a huge plus in my book.  |

Griffin Omanid
IntersteIIar Moneymakers
13
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 03:31:00 -
[359] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:These ships will be replacing the mining frigates that are being displaced by the new ORE frigate, taking the Inquisitor from the Amarr lineup instead because we already stole the Tormentor to make a mini-Armageddon.
Inquisitor: Frigate skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers Slot layout: 3 H, 2 M, 4 L, 2 turrets Fittings: 51 PWG, 135 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 225 / 500 / 330 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 400 / 200s / 2 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 1470000 / 4.95s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 700 / 7 Sensor strength: 10 Radar Signature radius: 34 Cargo capacity: 250
Nothing against logi frigs, but you changed the Tormentor with Inferno so you should be easily be able to change it again and make it a logistc frigate. Otherwise the Amarr logistic frig would be the only one which becomes a Stealth Bomber which feels a little bit crazy somehow |

Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
231
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 05:58:00 -
[360] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.
They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).
I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.
An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.
This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships.
Wait, wait ... you're saying those cruisers are designed as frigate killers? Get out. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
|

Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko Tower of Dark Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 07:53:00 -
[361] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, please consider the option of hull repair role boni? In frigate size battles you're in hull fairly often. Also it hurts to repair incapped POS structures with slow battleship.
And, by same reasons, weak remote armor for strong shield healers? (and vice versa), so they will be field engineers ) |

Captain Robby
Kopasas SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 08:56:00 -
[362] - Quote
great stuff and now a new role has opened for new players instead of having to brake down a long skill chain to get aka tec 2 cruiser logi :D |

Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
223
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 09:45:00 -
[363] - Quote
So much of this "Solo (offgridboosted) hero" bullshit in this thread crying that they wont be able to safely dispose of multiple enemies "alone" anymore.
Ill give you the advice you give to your victims .. Learn to play.
I love the introduction of frig sized logistics ! |

Zedrich Ederech
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 11:28:00 -
[364] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
I have a problem with this - the Tristan is already good at what it does, and what it does is being a fast speedtanking DPS frigate with decent tackling capabilities. It should really stay that way - unless you intend to add drone fielding capabilities while letting the hardpoint loadouts stay. |

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
26
|
Posted - 2012.08.25 16:09:00 -
[365] - Quote
Zedrich Ederech wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
I have a problem with this - the Tristan is already good at what it does, and what it does is being a fast speedtanking DPS frigate with decent tackling capabilities. It should really stay that way - unless you intend to add drone fielding capabilities while letting the hardpoint loadouts stay.
Stop being bad. |

Deacon Abox
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 02:24:00 -
[366] - Quote
Paul Clancy wrote:CCP Fozzie, please consider the option of hull repair role boni? In frigate size battles you're in hull fairly often. Also it hurts to repair incapped POS structures with slow battleship.
And, by same reasons, weak remote armor for strong shield healers? (and vice versa), so they will be field engineers ) Not sure what you are saying in the second paragraph but I do like the suggestion in the first paragraph. Remote hull repping bonuses would give these ships something much needed and unique.
edit- Oh, and I think you have been lobbying for a drone centric Navitas. That would be a bad idea unless they do some serious work to fix the drone interface, game mechanics, and ai. |

Justin Cody
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 21:46:00 -
[367] - Quote
Fozzie has wakka wakka'd into mordor and delivered a slam dunk into the lava |

Justin Cody
Tri-gun Lost Obsession
27
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 21:53:00 -
[368] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Zedrich Ederech wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.
I have a problem with this - the Tristan is already good at what it does, and what it does is being a fast speedtanking DPS frigate with decent tackling capabilities. It should really stay that way - unless you intend to add drone fielding capabilities while letting the hardpoint loadouts stay. Stop being bad.
QFT |

Caldain Morrow
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 15:37:00 -
[369] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Awesome! now please make a tech II version!
these ships are just too awesome for us vets not to have one and a tech II version is just pure sweet!
make the gal have a bonus to remote ECCM
make the caldari have a bonus to remote sensor boosters
make the ammar have a bonus ( well i dunno what counters target painting remotely?) you would need some new mod thats a remote senor shadow (reduces sig raduis of target ship)
then tracking link for minnie to counter tracking disrupters...
This! I'm all for an ECCM platform. |

Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 19:26:00 -
[370] - Quote
One of the oldest Eve videos published by CCP shows the new missiles that were being tested, they showed a Bantam launching missiles, it's somewhat disappointing that the bantam cannot launch missiles, so give the bantam some missile hardpoints. |
|

GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 02:23:00 -
[371] - Quote
10/10/500 across all races.
It is reasonable to suggest a bit a mix with the ratios so that there is variety in the selection of races?
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount 10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use Role Bonus: 500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
and the other armor or shield can have something like:
12% amount 15% cap 400% range
|

Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 11:59:00 -
[372] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Felter Echerie wrote:what happened with the navitas being a drone boat? :( The Tristan became a drone boat instead. Please, please, please, please, please reverse that decision. |

Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 12:17:00 -
[373] - Quote
Looks like many people stocked up on Navitas in the hope of it being a drone boat. |

Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 12:57:00 -
[374] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:Looks like many people stocked up on Navitas in the hope of it being a drone boat. Not in my case.
Ever since joining EVE I've wondered why my Gallente main didn't have a nice basic drone frigate. Now he's getting one but if I want to use it I have to somehow grit my teeth and fly the ugliest, stupidest-looking ship in the whole EVE universe.  |

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
186
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 15:21:00 -
[375] - Quote
Hello ladies and gentlemen
I feel logistic frigates won't be used a lot unless you have a very good reason and I feel these ships require the ability apply moderate damage while doing logistic work in a secondary way... Here is a few suggestions:
First I feel RR modules (shield transporters, remote armor repairers) favours the bigger modules at all tasks which kind of goes against the core philosophy of Eve and prevents small and medium modules being utilized properly.
Currently we have: Large T2 modules doing 384 hitpoins pr. 4,5 seconds at 8.400m (71,4km on a logistic w/ Lv5) Medium T2 modules doing 192 hitpoins pr. 4,5 seconds at 6.000m (51,0km on a logistic w/ Lv5) Small T2 modules doing 96 hitpoins pr. 4,5 seconds at 4.800m (40,8km on a logistic w/ Lv5)
But why not switch around ranges so that small RR modules can reach the interceptors at long range and the large RR modules have to be closer to the slower big ships requiring more assistance? I would suggest to double the range of medium RR modules and quadruple the range of small RR modules. In return I would cut the logistic range bonus in half to 75% pr level resulting in:
Large T2 modules doing 384 hitpoins pr. 4,5 seconds at 8.400m (39,9km on a logistic w/ Lv5) Medium T2 modules doing 192 hitpoins pr. 4,5 seconds at 12.000m (57,0km on a logistic w/ Lv5) Small T2 modules doing 96 hitpoins pr. 4,5 seconds at 19.200m (91,2km on a logistic w/ Lv5)
Secondly I feel logistic frigates will HAVE to merge the logi bonuses into 1 bonus and using the 2nd bonus to gives them some dps being able to do about 100 dps while remote repairing... If you don't give the ship the means to be used as a combat vessel doing at least some dps it will end like the Osprey has been for the last few years: A pos asset...
Pinky |

Meditril
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
107
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 15:25:00 -
[376] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:Hello ladies and gentlemen Secondly I feel logistic frigates will HAVE to merge the logi bonuses into 1 bonus and using the 2nd bonus to gives them some dps being able to do about 100 dps while remote repairing... If you don't give the ship the means to be used as a combat vessel doing at least some dps it will end like the Osprey has been for the last few years: A pos asset... Pinky
This would make logistic frigates completely overpowered. Every non-solo gang would then consist just out of logistic ships repping each other and doing the damage. Therefore a clear NO. Logistic frigates should not do any damage without gimping logistics power. |

Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1670
|
Posted - 2012.08.28 15:43:00 -
[377] - Quote
If this is what Frigates get..... then I'm really looking forward to the capital revamp in a few years time.... |

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
187
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 08:38:00 -
[378] - Quote
Everything will have to be done carefully as always...
There are many parameters you can adjust to keep logi frigates fun without being OP:
- Reducing cap recharge making sure they have a limited action time
- Making sure logi frigates cannot lock up too many targets at once
- Keeping dps substantially below actual combat frigates
- Adjusting cap amount to give the desired time of action (no perma unless 100 gimped)
|

Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 09:55:00 -
[379] - Quote
Oraac Ensor wrote:Rick Rymes wrote:Looks like many people stocked up on Navitas in the hope of it being a drone boat. Not in my case. Ever since joining EVE I've wondered why my Gallente main didn't have a nice basic drone frigate. Now he's getting one but if I want to use it I have to somehow grit my teeth and fly the ugliest, stupidest-looking ship in the whole EVE universe. 
Come now, i think the Bantam looks a lot more ugly than the Tristan . But even tho the Navitas looks more pleasing to the eye, the Tristan has the history and look of a combat ship. Besides the sleek look of the Navitas will suit a logi, show a bit of love for the fat man  |

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
108
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 11:17:00 -
[380] - Quote
I, for one, welcome our new dual gun single RR frigate gang overlords. Fear God and Thread Nought |
|

Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 15:30:00 -
[381] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:Come now, i think the Bantam looks a lot more ugly than the Tristan  . But even tho the Navitas looks more pleasing to the eye, the Tristan has the history and look of a combat ship. Besides the sleek look of the Navitas will suit a logi, show a bit of love for the fat man  The only thing wrong with the Bantam is that it looks more like a Minmatar ship than Caldari. Tristan looks nothing like a combat ship - hell, it doesn't even look like a ship. Looks more like one of those ridiculous mechwarrior things.
In any case, I would think sleek looks are more appropriate for a combat ship than a logi. |

J A Aloysiusz
Precision Strike Brigade Pirate Coalition
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 19:40:00 -
[382] - Quote
Oraac Ensor wrote:Rick Rymes wrote:Come now, i think the Bantam looks a lot more ugly than the Tristan  . But even tho the Navitas looks more pleasing to the eye, the Tristan has the history and look of a combat ship. Besides the sleek look of the Navitas will suit a logi, show a bit of love for the fat man  The only thing wrong with the Bantam is that it looks more like a Minmatar ship than Caldari. Tristan looks nothing like a combat ship - hell, it doesn't even look like a ship. Looks more like one of those ridiculous mechwarrior things. In any case, I would think sleek looks are more appropriate for a combat ship than a logi.
Given this thread has degraded to bashing caldari's ugly ships, I think you really hit the nail on the head with this one. I love the idea of fairly inexperienced pilots being able to help veterans.
Since I'm a pessimist, I'll point out that this could strain the problems of high sec warfare... mass logistics means everyone has time to dock, therefore less BC/BS deaths. On the contrary, low speed, high sig frigates are easily gankable, even on station. I'm excited to see where this takes us. |

Ame Sonoda
Requiem of the Sinner
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 21:37:00 -
[383] - Quote
Thanks CCP, finally the last bastion of decent PvP in Eve is going to be **** up with the same EHP/lolgistics crap you see in every other form of combat. |

Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 03:53:00 -
[384] - Quote
J A Aloysiusz wrote:Oraac Ensor wrote:Rick Rymes wrote:Come now, i think the Bantam looks a lot more ugly than the Tristan  . But even tho the Navitas looks more pleasing to the eye, the Tristan has the history and look of a combat ship. Besides the sleek look of the Navitas will suit a logi, show a bit of love for the fat man  The only thing wrong with the Bantam is that it looks more like a Minmatar ship than Caldari. Tristan looks nothing like a combat ship - hell, it doesn't even look like a ship. Looks more like one of those ridiculous mechwarrior things. In any case, I would think sleek looks are more appropriate for a combat ship than a logi. Given this thread has degraded to bashing caldari's ugly ships, I think you really hit the nail on the head with this one. I love the idea of fairly inexperienced pilots being able to help veterans. Since I'm a pessimist, I'll point out that this could strain the problems of high sec warfare... mass logistics means everyone has time to dock, therefore less BC/BS deaths. On the contrary, low speed, high sig frigates are easily gankable, even on station. I'm excited to see where this takes us.
i do agree that BC/BS station games will get worse, i see it as a small price to pay for a richer target pool :) |

Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
52
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 14:25:00 -
[385] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote: i do agree that BC/BS station games will get worse, i see it as a small price to pay for a richer target pool :)
Station games cannot get worse when you can smartbomb the hell out of these frigs. No swarm of these frigates will be better than a standard T2 logi in most situations.
Damn, any destroyer or tracking cruiser/BC can slaughter these things like mosquitoes. How could they be a balance problem ? They are free killmails awaiting.
Though, in frigates gang, they will be as invaluable as quickly primiried. |

Rick Rymes
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 16:14:00 -
[386] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Rick Rymes wrote: i do agree that BC/BS station games will get worse, i see it as a small price to pay for a richer target pool :)
Station games cannot get worse when you can smartbomb the hell out of these frigs. No swarm of these frigates will be better than a standard T2 logi in most situations. Damn, any destroyer or tracking cruiser/BC can slaughter these things like mosquitoes. How could they be a balance problem ? They are free killmails awaiting. Though, in frigates gang, they will be as invaluable as quickly primiried.
I did say the target pool would be richer, but a few of these could make a difference for a bc trying to de aggro.
But they will be balanced im sure, they are only frigs, as awesome as frigs are :) |

Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
45
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 14:40:00 -
[387] - Quote
Oraac Ensor wrote:Not in my case. Ever since joining EVE I've wondered why my Gallente main didn't have a nice basic drone frigate. Now he's getting one but if I want to use it I have to somehow grit my teeth and fly the ugliest, stupidest-looking ship in the whole EVE universe. 
Oraac Ensor wrote:The only thing wrong with the Bantam is that it looks more like a Minmatar ship than Caldari. Tristan looks nothing like a combat ship - hell, it doesn't even look like a ship. Looks more like one of those ridiculous mechwarrior things.
Sir, you are out of your mind. It might not be as sexy as the Maulus, but the Tristan is still one of the best looking frigates in the game. If not one of the best looking ships altogether.
It is a work of art.  |

Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
232
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 17:07:00 -
[388] - Quote
Autonomous Monster wrote:Yo, Oraac Ensor, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but the Tristan is the best looking frigate of all time!
Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |

Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2012.09.02 00:49:00 -
[389] - Quote
Autonomous Monster wrote:Oraac Ensor wrote:Not in my case. Ever since joining EVE I've wondered why my Gallente main didn't have a nice basic drone frigate. Now he's getting one but if I want to use it I have to somehow grit my teeth and fly the ugliest, stupidest-looking ship in the whole EVE universe.  Oraac Ensor wrote:The only thing wrong with the Bantam is that it looks more like a Minmatar ship than Caldari. Tristan looks nothing like a combat ship - hell, it doesn't even look like a ship. Looks more like one of those ridiculous mechwarrior things. Sir, you are out of your mind. It might not be as sexy as the Maulus, but the Tristan is still one of the best looking frigates in the game. If not one of the best looking ships altogether. It is a work of art.  Dunno whereabouts in the world you're situated, but here in the UK we have an outfit called Specsavers. I can thoroughly recommend them. |

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
204
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 07:43:00 -
[390] - Quote
I love this idea!
Though despite there being 4 logi frigates, there appears to be only 2 real types. Would be cool if the Inquisitor had mixed armor and capacitor bonuses, and the burst had one of the shield bonuses swapped out with a tracking link bonus. Like this:
Inquisitor: +10% remote armor repair and +10% capacitor transfer amount per level +500% bonus to range of remote armor repairers and capacitor transfers
Bantam: +10% shield transporter boost amount and -10% shield transporter capacitor cost per level +500% bonus to range of shield transporters
Navitas: +10% remote armor repair amount and -10% remote armor repair capacitor cost per level +500% bonus to range of remote armor repairers
Burst: +10% shield transporter boost amount and +5% tracking link effectiveness per level +500% bonus to range of shield transporters and tracking links -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
|

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
422
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 06:30:00 -
[391] - Quote
NONE of ANY OF YOU have ever flown a Frigate with RR before. EVER.
I have.
Sudden Buggery has done Remote Rep Assault Frigate gangs for the past 2 years. Generally, this is best achieved with a Vengeance and A-type Armour RR, and we also use the Harpy, Jag, Wolf, Enyo, Ishkur. But you can even today do RR frig gangs with Punishers, because they get the resist bonus.
You cannot currently do RR AFs or ANYTHING with small shield transporters on a small hull because they are way too high on CPU. This is not changing substantially with this update: CCP you need to drop these to 35-ish per module, max. I mean, come on.
What is our experience? You know, the actual thing any of you hopeless EFT warriors and armchair ninjas actually lack?
Number one; RR frigs work best against big hulls with bug guns. BS's are a complete pushover, as the guns can't hit frigs well to start with. Drones are easily blapped by RR Vengeances before they can get back inside momma. Versus cruisers and BC's this is moderately harder, except for the Cynabal which gets OMFG tracking and can blap you fairly easily. Against drakes with HMLs you can take 3 RR AFs in against four drakes and survive as long as no one TP's you. Against HAM Drakes, probably infinite. Against smaller hulls and smaller guns and missiles the actual landed damage begins ramping up significantly.
The way it works is like this. RR sprays a certain amount of armour HP onto the target hull. Your tanked DPS is dependent on resists and sig. In the case, cited earlier of a single RR giving a Merlin 300 DPS tank, you also have to consider that the Merlin has a high sig radius, especially with an MSEII aboard (and you'll definitely be fitting that!). Armour RR, working off a low sig radius already (and for god's sakes use ABs) means you combine natively higher resists with stupidly low sig. Hence why the Vengeance is king, and will always be king for this.
Secondly. You have two or more highly maneuverable ships with, at best, a 400mm plate and 85% resists, orbiting one another. Or, actually, the target. If you have a Harpy, Ishkur or Jag you get a utility EWAR slot; every other hull struggles to fit webs, TD's, ECM plus the RR. You orbit your target at 500m, which with your velocity and your buddy's velocity slings you to 1800-2300m, which is within the elliptical orbit range of your small RR.
Sure, the range bonuses on the logi frigs equate to 24km or so rep range, but this is still going to be hard to effectively achieve.
Thirdly, any RR (especially spider-tanking AFs) is very, very player skill intensive. There is infinite opportunity to derp the hell out of it, resulting in dying within seconds. As pointed out, cycle times, available capacitor, the small buffer and the high speed of frigates makes this a very, very difficult gang to pull off. If some clown wants to fit a shield-tanked MWD Condor and hope to get shield reps on him he will have to orbit the logi frigate, or he'll be out of its range inside 3 seconds. Then, 10 seconds later he'll be dead.
Finally, capacitor monitoring on a frigate is hard. THe Vengeance fit we use, it is cap stable. But you will suffer in an ungodly fashion if a BC has a neut, requiring your gang to manage cap. Plus velocity. Plus transversal. Plus landing actual DPS on the foe, plus EWAR modules, monitoring drones, etc etc. It is intense work. Hardly anyone can do this properly first go because unlike RR BS, this happens extremely fast.
So. My opinin, being one of the few people to ever use RR with frigates?
In reality, what will happen is this. People will begin roaming mass frigate logi gangs. They will quickly discover this is extremely hard work, and the majority will give it up. They will lose whole gangs in Rancer to smartbombs, or get their logi blapped by Cynabals, arty ruppies,thrashers and give up.
It might be a lark, a monhly special luls event of EVE Uni. TEST will do suicide frig roams, with marginally more survivabilityfor their kamikazes, but it won't turn them into evil Blob Eats All because it takes skill, which TEST pubbies don't have. RvB will ban logi frigates immediately, and none of them will ever learn how to do it (believe me, I tried RR AFs on a few RvBers and they just wanted to keep welping Rifters).
However, people will begin farming plexes, sanctums, etc with dramiels backed up with logi frigs. People will begin farming sleeper sites up to and including C4s with Navitas/Inquisitor/Vengeance/Daredevil gangs working on small sig-uber RR theorems. This will no longer be the preserve of niche opportunists and masochistic FCs like myself. This will be hilarious if people hotdrop them.
In FW, you will get Loki-Legion boosted Daredevils camping small plexes with a pair of Navitas/Inquisitors. Mediums will be camped by a couple of Vengeances. Shield fleets will soon consist of AB Condor/Kestrel Burst logi gangs.
- shield RR CPU fitting requirements are still far too high. Take the Bantam: 215 CPU. You fit 3 T2 RR's (126), a Upgraded MWD (25), a MSE (34), T2 Invul (44) you have run out of CPU. You still have one midslot and 2 lowslots to fill. I guess one is a CPU, the other is a nano, becuse you are going to be 20 short o The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
11
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 10:33:00 -
[392] - Quote
i have never heard of rr frig spider tanking but on closer inspection on eve hq it looks good not sure how you fit your vengeance any cap trans chain? But yes even with cpu reducements on shield reps it still seems odd that they use so much cpu it kind of makes it unusable on anything other than a logi frig thats a shame and also the cap trans is also high on cpu why not reduce it it seems odd that you have to double the cpu of the armour logi frigs to use shield reps when its not so disparate on cruiser logi although not far off if its not usable on non logi ships then surely its unbalanced |

Chakarr
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 12:01:00 -
[393] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: RvB will ban logi frigates immediately, and none of them will ever learn how to do it (believe me, I tried RR AFs on a few RvBers and they just wanted to keep welping Rifters).
Errrm...confirming that RvB is very much looking forward to logi frigates and the new challenges they will bring - we don't just welp rifters 24/7 you know...don't be such an arrogant turd, even if some of what you say has merit....  |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
79
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 12:10:00 -
[394] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: - shield RR CPU fitting requirements are still far too high[/b]. Take the Bantam: 215 CPU. You fit 3 T2 RR's (126), a Upgraded MWD (25), a MSE (34), T2 Invul (44) you have run out of CPU. You still have one midslot and 2 lowslots to fill. I guess one is a CPU, the other is a nano, becuse you are going to be 20 short o
Ok so we start with 215CPU add 25% for skills which equals 286.75CPU -126 for RR = 142.75 142.75 -25 for MWD = 117.75 117.75 - 34 for MSE = 83.75 83.75 - 44 for T2 invuln = 39.75
so you have 39 cpu remaining everything looks ok to me |

Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
15
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 12:55:00 -
[395] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hustomte wrote: 2) The stealth bomber is going to need to be redesigned since it can't be based off a logi frig hull.
Why not?
You mean except from the obvious total ignorance of EVE lore? 
Obvioulsy, you can do whatever you want. Change the stats, and you can make the Bantam into a Tech 2 titan. I'm sure you would agree with me that that would be stupid.
So - even if CCP doesnt seem all that concerned with preserving the lore anymore - at least have the courtesy not to destroy it.
Stealth bombers should be based on combat hulls, like they are today. Its a very easy way to fix this. Just replace the Tormentor with the Inqisitor hull (same stats), and use the Tormentor hull as the basis for the new logifrigate. Problem solved. Lore consistent. |

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
11
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 12:56:00 -
[396] - Quote
also no mention of micro reps being changed if not then they are complete waste of space as they will use similar cpu at that point without the extra hp repaired why have micro mods anyway? did they ever serve a purpose maybe you could think of one :) |

Kesthely
Fleet of the Damned Happy Endings
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.04 21:00:00 -
[397] - Quote
All beeing said and done i personaly think the Logistic line, like all other lines should include Frigates and Battleships. Why have other TII lines available if you don-Śt include Logistics.
Its a role you can do, do it. Logistic frigates will not unbalance the game in any major way, the-Śll only add other options to counter already existing strong fleets.
As an armor hac gang can be used to extreme effectiveness vs a battleship gang, we might start to see an assault frigate gang to the same effectiveness against a armor hac gang. Will this need time to get used to? yes. Is it unbalancing? No.
Remember there are a lot of ways to easily destroy any frig. They are extremely vulnerable to alpha damage and neuting, if there speed and sig radius is reduced (scram web paint) they are killed with one or 2 volleys, there ranges are limited and with the huge difference between individual frigate speeds, extremely hard to manage well.
Yes we can all theorize that annoying scenario where you lose a fight due to the logistic frigate, but seriously its only role will be to keep other frigates alive. And it will be shot down first.
I'm a logistic pilot, with many hours as guardian, basilisk, and Archon, and i've also Fc'd quite a lot. Even with the 50 and 70 km ranges people burn out of rep range within seconds. With 30 km range and the speeds of frigates these situations will happen a lot more often. Most logistic frigate gangs will still take considerable losses due to not realizing the other ships can alpha trough your buffer, moveing out of range logistics getting jammed or neuted or any other mishap that can happen.
In some fleets haveing logistic frigs will only create a false sense of security
So why not stop complaining, and realize a few things.
1) haveing a role start at cruiser level instead of frigate level makes no sense 2) Haveing logistic frigates you will soon find out what best tactics to use against them wich also apply to the bigger variants 3) The "healer" role in any mmo appeals to some players. give them the oppertunity to fullfill that role in all sorts of fleets 4) Frigate logistics will only be used in specialized gangs 5) All other ships are getting rebalanced as well, although the frigates might seem unbalancing strong remember that destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers battleships capital ship and there TII and TIII rebalance is still to come. They will come in line with other ships |

Andy Landen
Born Crazy Kadeshians
59
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 00:10:00 -
[398] - Quote
Interesting idea, but the approach seems wrong. If you want players to train through logi frigs to get to logi cruisers, how about we have the logi frigs operate similar to the logi cruisers .. what a concept! While we are at it, might as well make the T1 cruisers operate similarly, too. So, the frigates would have similar bonuses as logi cruisers, and would be able to fit a full rack of medium RR (3-4) in their high slots plus a solid frig tank. While we are at it, let's get the Oneiros and Scimi ewar bonuses that are useful. Boost RSB amount and range on the Oneiros instead of the tracking link (or in addition to, since the number of slots is limited). Where is the ship that boosts ECCM with bonuses to the PECCM? Add those bonuses to the Basi for amount and range since Caldari is ECM king and logistics boosts friendlies? Sig radius reduction module for the Scimi as a friendly eWar boost along the MO of the logi in boosting friendlies. |

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
204
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 00:27:00 -
[399] - Quote
I have flown an RR frigate into combat as a matter of fact. Haven't done it much though, I'll admit. But I certainly noticed the stupidly high cpu cost of those shield transporters. You pretty much need a probe frigate to fit them, which doesn't even have enough slots to do it.
Harvey James wrote:why have micro mods anyway? did they ever serve a purpose maybe you could think of one :) I've assumed micro mods in general could fit where you don't have room for a small, though in my 2 years of playing EVE, I've encountered 1, maybe 2 scenarios where a small wouldn't fit and a micro would (that's considering ALL micro modules, not just RR). And I was never able to find a micro at a remotely reasonable price when I wanted it.
I think micro modules would be worth something if their fitting costs were MUCH lower than smalls, say 20-25% of the cpu/powergrid cost. After all, they take up a whole slot and only provide half a bonus. Any ship that would gain a lot from fitting several micros needs a big CPU or powergrid buff. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |

Andy Landen
Born Crazy Kadeshians
59
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 02:39:00 -
[400] - Quote
PS .. Why fly a logistics T1 frigate? Cost? Then fly a logistics T1 cruiser. You'll put out much more RR for similar cost. What's a few million ISK anyway when the value is SO much more? Speed? A T1 cruiser can get similar speeds, though admittedly slightly less. The list goes on. Is it just for HS FW? Aren't neut logis a problem with FW/wars in HS? I am running out of good uses for frig logis which can fit a couple of small RR. LS FW, maybe? Now give them a cov cloak and now we are starting to get somewhere. Do the same for AFs, so that frigs can fill their role of scout and stealthy small force ops. Give logi frigs access to medium modules and bonuses to CPU/PG/cap usage of RR and energy transfer, so that the logi frig begins to have a place; cruiser logi have lg RR, after all. And don't say that you are already bordering on OP because what difference will a few small RR make in any significant battle? Small RR and OP can't coexist in the same sentence, period. Not even medium RR can be OP, being so much less than large RR. Even with the faster lock time of frigates, the advantage is only slight on that point, because cruiser logi typically lock and RR their targets fast enough anyway, and they are much less vulnerable to neuts, ECM, eWar, etc than their frigate counterparts.
If this is just another, Let's make ships for low sp noobs, then please just say so at the start so I can quickly ignore this giant misplacement of CCP resources/development. |
|

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
206
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 02:45:00 -
[401] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:PS .. Why fly a logistics T1 frigate? You haven't flown frigates or cruisers much in combat have you?
If a t1 logistics frigate cost as much as a t1 logistics cruiser, it would still get flown more. It's partly the cost that will make a t1 logistics frigate popular, but more than anything its the size. The cruiser has MUCH lower speed and agility, and is a giant easy target for larger craft to shoot. Frigate gangs can fight other frigate gangs, but they mostly try to go up against larger targets. They're also useful for moving fast so that intelligence channels don't have time to track them very accurately and they can catch people unaware. Cruisers move, align, and warp slower. Also the medium modules have a longer cycle time, so the small modules are very nice to have. But that faster cycling advantage isn't worth much with a cruiser's sluggishness and slow targeting, so a logi frigate using small logi modules will be great to have. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |

Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
126
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 09:07:00 -
[402] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:I appreciate that they are slow and fragile but
1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.
2) Logi dont get +50% rep power, these do.
3) For PvE, the tank and speed on these is meaningless
4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin
Well if deadspace reps actually have a use the price will go up a bit. And they are a really flimsy hull so they are going to die alot (and thus deadspace reps actually get destroyed unlike now).
I think people are overestimating the rep power these things will put out anyway. Really the bad situation will be for people in a situation like you say, frig complex where the incoming frig is tackled and can't get to the logi frig thanks to lol frig range. That is a really really small area though.
|

Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
126
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 09:47:00 -
[403] - Quote
Blade Ripley wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Belsina wrote:its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor
because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)
think bout it ;) Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles. Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better. However, the Kestrel, Tristan, Breacher and Inqusitor also serves as the basis for the new stealth bombers. They are not the same hull anymore, but they are clearly enlarged derivates from the original hulls. So for the 3 other races, the stealhtbomber will be based of one of the combat frigates, while for the Amarr the stealh bomber will be based on the logistic frigate. That doesnt really makes sense. So in the interest of keeping a reasonable lore, I'd say switch the hulls. If you are not doing it now, players will probably bug you about it for the next 5 years anyway 
So how is the bomber being based on the laser frigate better than it being based on the logistics frigate?
|

Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
126
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 09:56:00 -
[404] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.
They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).
I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.
An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.
This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships.
3 v 1 is not a small advantage in numbers, its a factor of 3.
Really its your own fault for getting tackled out of range of the logi frigs anyway, what were you thinking?
Finally does anyone really have a problem with Fleet stabber, cynabal, vaga having something to fear? Surely the fact they can now be caught is good for game balance? |

Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
196
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 12:46:00 -
[405] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: Discussion of tanking imbalances: So some people have been asking if we care about some of the design problems inherent in our current tanking situation, and if we're going to redesign these ships to compensate for these problems. Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range. These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source. That being said there may be things we end up doing to these ships to help smooth things out, such as reducing cycle times and/or tweaking the mass of the armor tankers down a bit. We're going to keep working on these ships up to and beyond release in the Winter.
What about reducing the cycle times so the reps can hit fragile frigates faster?: It's definitely an option we're keeping open, both to help deal with the armor/shield imbalances and also because these ships will so often be repping low buffer allies.
Since there are a lot of issues regarding the diference between cycles of armor and shield modules, why don't we just simply make them equal ?
It's already a given that balance needs to be made, and the only proper way to do it is to fix the source of the problem as you say so, therefore, why not make them equal, the repair is done at the start or at the end on both armor and shield, pick one (I would pick at the start) and then balacing headaches decrease.
Then it would be a hell lot easier to balance repairs on any system, with equal cycle times for smal/med/large repairs/boosters and we wouldn't require any more 'bandage' like balances to fix something that clearly provides imbalance at it's source. |

Eran Cath
Danish Trade and Mining Inc. Frontier Trading and Co Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 13:52:00 -
[406] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:more drones for self defense would be nice
Agreed. Some more drone space but perhaps not being able to use rep-drones, would be "fitting" |

JonnyRandom
59
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:51:00 -
[407] - Quote
I'm not in favour of this change.
While a support frigate does open new options for frigate fleets I think it is counter-intuitive to the nature of frigate fleets. They are not long slug-fests. They are fast, deadly, and often end in the blink of an eye.
If support frigates are inevitable I would say it would be more fitting to provide offensive bonuses rather than defensive. Tracking links, etc. |

Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 02:11:00 -
[408] - Quote
Kitty Vintner wrote: My new player experience: "Logistics ships look cool, let's just plot it out in evemon-oh it'll take like five months to get into one ~nevermind~".
Yep. Had the same experience, somewhat mitigated by the overlap in prereqs between the Ishtar and the Oneiros.
I will definitely fit up one of these and try to get a 3v3 fight (1 logi frig + 2 damage vs 3 damage) to see how they work out. |

Imnothuman
Haxzors.
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 11:17:00 -
[409] - Quote
Tech 2 versions of these ships are much required it should not be too hard to make them balanced either
my thinking was the tech 2 bonuses should be something like
Amarr Logistics frigate Specialisation 5% to Armour resistances 5% increase to power grid per level Role Bonus also adds 500% bonus to energy transfer range
Gallente Logistics Frigate Specialisation 5% to drone rep amount and health 5% increase to capacitor recharge rate (25m3 drone bay) Role Bonus changes 650% range bonus for reps
Caldari Logistics Frigate Specialisation 5% shield resistances per level 5% to drone rep amount and health (5m3 drone bay) Role Bonus also adds 500% bonus to energy transfer range
Mimmatar Logistics Frigate Specialisation 5% bonus to ship Velocity per level 5% increase to capacitor recharge rate (15m3 drone bay) Role Bonus changes 650% range bonus for reps
Give each an extra mid and low slot along with the t2 resists but do something like give them a sensor strength of 8 at best, therefore people cannot use these as a constant because one griffin could jam you indefinitely.
Also if we are seeing the addition of these ships how long until Eve Uni + RVB wipes out test? |

Renier Gaden
Exanimo Inc Anger Management.
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 15:10:00 -
[410] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:My immediate gut reaction was "Well Done!", this certainly has the potential to shake up frigate combat and introduce some very fun mechanics into smaller hull combat. Needs testing though.
One concern I have is that this is going to further encourage multiboxing. Where currently everyone and their grandma has an off-grid booster and call it "solo", now they're going to have one more account for this "pocket healer". I mean it's great for CCP income-wise, but this will wreck a new player experience. Remember, no sane new player is going to pay for 2-3 subs (edit: especially now that F2P+store is becoming the norm, see SWTOR, GW2, etc.), and he won't be able to PLEX his account for a while, probably a month or two at best. When most people a new player fights, even at frigate level, are off-grid boosted AND logi-repaired, even ignoring the obscene advantage that the SP they have gives them...well...it just ain't gonna be fun.
Yes, I know, "join corp", "make friends", etc. All valid, but it still makes me ponder if this is pushing the game a little too much in the direction of "mandatory altagolism". GÇŁfurther encourage multiboxingGÇĽ - I have multiboxed two combat ships, and I might consider multiboxing two logistic/support ships, but I donGÇÖt fancy trying to multibox a combat and a logistic/support ship at the same time. - It would be quite a challenge to multibox two frigates in combat. I donGÇÖt think I could do it effectively. - Logistic/Support ships are dog meat unless there are at least two of them to support each other. How many people can effectively multibox 3 frigates in PVP?
Effect on solo PVP: - As Fozzie said 1v2 is not solo. - Kill the support frigate first. Unless there are two support frigates, they should be an easy kill. Even if you loose your frigate, killing the Support frigate in a 1v2 should make you the winner in Points and often in Efficiency as well.
Off Grid Links: - I thought they were planning on nerfing that? Multiboxing on-grid ships will not be the same as having your second account sitting at a safe spot. |
|

Plaude Pollard
Crimson Cartel
75
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 16:06:00 -
[411] - Quote
Looks lovely. Will definitely make it easier to get Logis when you really need them. I'm just worried that they'll become too powerful to make anyone bother with T1-Logi Cruisers. New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of your choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info. |

Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 01:14:00 -
[412] - Quote
Love it. As a dyed-in-the-wool frigate captain, I look forward to anything that gets me more wolfpacks to fly in. As a person who also flies logistics, I am sure I will see time in one of these, escpecially the Navitas; I love the look of it, and am glad I will soon have a reason to actually fly one.
As to all the nay-sayers talking about how much these will make this, that or the other thing non-viable: In any situation, adding another another ship of any sort changes things. Don't talk about solo combat since a combat frigate and a support frigate is no more solo than if you had added another combat ship to the mix instead, and solo combat won't likely involve one of these ships any more than you are going to see a Scimitar going solo.
Liang Nuren wrote: A few comments about the ships: - The fittings seem a bit low. I am concerned about being able to fit Prop mod, buffer, and a sufficient amount of remote repair. - I know you wanted them to be slow, but a 5 second align time? Jeeeeeeezee. - The mass seems pretty heavy. Frig fights are pretty fast moving affairs and I'm not sure that logi frigs would be able to keep up.
What do you say to two classes of logi frigs: - Amarr/Caldari: Heavy logi frigs (akin to AFs) expected to be in brawls - Minmatar/Gallente: Light logi frigs (akin to Inties) expected to be in kite gangs
-Liang
I am bad about theorycrafting fittings, so I won't comment on that part. I do agree they seem a bit too slow. I know they are supposed to be sluggish, but I agree they need to keep up at least with the heaviest T1 combat frigate.
I like the idea about having a pair of heavier support frigates that are useful in bigger, slower gangs, and a set for lighter, faster gangs, and I agree with the choice of those ships. I would also like to add, that it would be nice to see similar bonuses to the Logi cruisers, so the Bantam and Inquisitor should get bonuses to energy transfer arrays and pair up, making them good for frigate fleet support, while the Navitas and Burst are better for smaller groups. Maybe give the latter two the same tracking link boost the Logi Cruiser counterparts have. |

OT Smithers
Buccaneer's Den
146
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:40:00 -
[413] - Quote
Looks great!
Regarding Solo PvP: This is no way impacts it. If you engage in what you believe will be a 1v1 and they bring in help it is, by definition, no longer a 1v1. And if they were going to bring friends I would far rather face one of these than what we do today: seventeed Canes, two Drakes, a Falcon, a Rapier, and a Guardian all landing on the field to take out my shuttle.
The reality is that Eve PvP has never been 1v1 other than in formalized high sec duals or rare targets of opportunity, the game is not built that way and, so long as access to a fight is not restricted and the cost of admittance is high, it never will be.
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Heribeck Weathers
The Executioners Capital Punishment.
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:46:00 -
[414] - Quote
Im really really looking forward to these coming up. and anyone who says they are going to hurt small gang pvp is mostly wrong, i think of them kinda like a griffen, warps in at range and makes the fight harder, but you just have to send some one over to kill them and their fragile HP to get the fight back on track. Hell buffed griffens will be more annoyign than these in the winter
I do feel that they are a tad bit homoginized, yeah theur slot layout is diferant, but there should be some racial skill bonus in there to set them apart, like caldari one ges more rnage, but mimatar one gets more rep amount |

Bob Niac
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
20
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 04:33:00 -
[415] - Quote
My 2 cents ... I would prefer a bonus to cycle time .. not to amount would make it more interesting and feasable. correct me if I am wrong. I <3 Logistics: Pilot of all -áT2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use. |

Belsina
STAHLSTURM Test Friends Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 17:19:00 -
[416] - Quote
this idea is not half bad
EXEPT for one MAJOR FACT: the inquisitor is the tech 1 version of the purifier in the game
so the inquisitor is MEANT to be a tech 1 frigate that is able to use some kind of missile launching system
next thing: for the no missing place in ur "rebalancing mission" take the amarr-ex-mining frigate Tormentor
like the other mining frigates from the other races (no one cares if it was "rebalanced" already)
on the other hand i really like the idea of small logistic vessels |

Ashriban Kador
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
10
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 12:55:00 -
[417] - Quote
Progression is not and never has been via hull. In this case it's: Inquisitor -> Augorer -> Guardian.
Progression is based on the ships role/specialization not on what hull it's based upon.
Stealth Bombers are actually outside normal progression as they are a specialized ship where no other ship type performs a similar role. Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns. |

Jehan Markow
Militant Mermen LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
27
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 13:36:00 -
[418] - Quote
While I'm sure many players are excited at the prospect of frigate-class logistics, it is something that will transform the game into something entirely different. I don't know if CCP intends to make such a radical change, or if you guys are just doing it because you think you'll get more new players involved; but allow me to urge you to preserve the current setup for several reasons.
Let's start by reviewing your goals: 1) Create a new set of interesting gameplay choices when flying or fighting against frigate groups 2) Provide an upgrade path for new players on their way to Logistics ships
As to the first goal, I agree that logi frigs will add choices. But more choice is not always better. Under our current system, frigates can and should be expected to die when fighting an equal number of larger ships. Their advantage, though, is that they can hit-and-run and gtfo with minimal losses. The fact that frigates can die easily is an essential part of PVP. So is the fact that they can run away successfully from larger gangs. Adding logistics frigates gives what I would call unfair advantages to frig gangs above and beyond what they already have.
As to the second goal, does anybody really think we need a more complicated path to logistics ships? When I first came into the game, I saw that my corp needed people in logi cruisers, and I started training. The fact that the train was two months long and that they aren't high dps ships meant that I was one of two people out of 30 that even bothered. Once we had the ships, however, the reward was great, 8 months into the game. Creating a frigate path to the logi cruiser would diminish that reward, and still most players wouldn't train for it because they don't like the role. If you really want to diminish how long it takes to get into logi cruisers, why not strike some of the prerequisites instead?
Really, logistics is the sort of thing that should be risky, and the current setup of the game where players are discouraged from doing logistics is great for PVP. It means that only skilled players can excel in the role. If you flood the PVP player base with logistics by making it far more accessible, I shudder to think of the astronomical increase in logistics incompetence.
The great thing about the current balance of PVP ships in small gangs is that everybody aims for cruisers. You learn how to fly by using disposable frigates, and when you are competent, you move up to cruisers. When you have isk to invest, you fly T2 cruisers. New players for the most part are not interested in running logistics. Most new people barely know how to aim and shoot, and all the large PVP organisations know this. That's why we supply cheap frigates and destroyers for combat. Honestly, I don't want some noob mucking around in a logi boat, and I don't relish the thought of coming up with new guidelines for new players over new ships that are unnecessarily imbalanced. Of all the impending changes for the Winter, the addition of logi frigates has by far the most potential for revolutionising the game.
Why not think of what else you could do with these frigates besides logistics? One big thing missing under the DevBlog is CHOICE. It would be nice to have the option of two separate DPS roles for each race: Caldari - missiles, hybrid turrets Gallente - drones, hybrid turrets Amarr - energy turrets, drones Minmatar - projectile turrets, missiles It would be great if we could get three options, that way we can choose long-range or short-range turrets. Why not focus on expanding the frigate classes in that direction? If you don't like the DPS idea, how about a second ewar hull per race (capacitor combat, stasis webs, warp scram/disruptor)? Also, how about a totally different kind of support: we still don't have any sensor booster ships, or any ships that provide projected ECCM bonuses.
All that said, I still don't see any reason to remove the mining laser bonuses. Let the ORE frigate outclass us. This still enables new players to get into mining ships without having to train another skill.
Also, don't use the word "support". It is a terribly nondescriptive word. As far as my guys use it, support means "Ewar, command, tackle, and logistics". If you can't just call these things logistics frigates, you're going to confuse a lot of that lowest common denominator you're aiming at with these changes.
I remember when CCP revamped the tutorial missions with the idea that players should experience ship loss to help them learn and grow. Whatever happened to that line of thinking? Frigate swarms should remain highly maneuverable and highly vulnerable. These logi frigates will just end up being a pain in the ass for those who fly them, and players will be discouraged from training into cruisers, where all the fun is at. Is that really what CCP wants to do here? -JM |

Gelvina
Temnava Legion TEMNAVA
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 13:58:00 -
[419] - Quote
This is awesome!
I'm fly t2 logistics cruisers every now and again and I think this is an excellent new frigate platform!
I'm assuming these will firstly be used with tech2 frigate gangs. Therefore the repping targets will be things like jaguard having around 10k EHP. Should work awesomely! These small fleets is gonna make many tears :D
CCP: Have you considered a duration reduction rather than an amount bonus? (adjusting cap usage reductions accordingly obviously)
This will greatly help remote armour landing the reps in time. And since since reps comes in more consistently will make it harder to alpha these small ships.
So for example Inquisitor: frigate skill bonus: 10% reduction in remote armour repairer duration 20% reduction in remote armour repairer capacitor usage
Was wondering how much skill is needed on these to be cap stable with 3 reps and AB on?
|

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
147
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 13:55:00 -
[420] - Quote
ok ... so now when u have small gang u and enemy brings logies u start to think how to
a) break them b) blue ball them
It happens very rarely because logies are not used too much ....
now when everyone with the hole will use the logies .... will be less fights .... hmmm good move ....
or I will just bring arty thrahsers .... and some webs ....
I am quite neutral as I believe this move needs to be carefully tested IBS recruiting >>> http://ingloriousbs.wordpress.com -á>>> questionable ethics >>> tears >>> happy snakes>>>frog cocktails free?>>>????-áPublic ch.: Basterds on vacation Hans resign from CSM! |
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Kesthely
Fleet of the Damned Happy Endings
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 14:36:00 -
[421] - Quote
The inquisitor looks like a beast, 3 permarepping small armor, ab, eccm, 400 plate, dcu II eanm II anm II 1970+ real armor hp, nearly 6 k buffer with resistances above 55% and yet haveing used them on the testserver, i'm not convinced the'll pose a problem in the majority of situations. Why? because in most situations the targets you rep will be able to volley the buffers
The repping power and range of these frigates is to few and to short to have a major impact on cruiser sized and higher ships, and they certainly can't out rep assault frigate or destroyer dps They will however be able to rep up the damage of a few drones. Or possibly keep the tacklers alive long enough for them to survive there tackling
Fun little ships |

Siigari Kitawa
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
225
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:50:00 -
[422] - Quote
Serious suggestion: Give the Navitas a 20m3 drone bay and bandwidth with a 10% per level repair bonus for repair drones. Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX |

Reeves CZ
Wing 69 THE R0NIN
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 21:13:00 -
[423] - Quote
give them faster cap recharge rate .With my cap and remote rep skills at 5 is very hard for me to fit that logi (im only test navi and burst) cap stable (tried cap boosted fit too) with all 3 reps running (with prop mod off) and some reasonable tank. |

Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
210
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 21:24:00 -
[424] - Quote
Reeves CZ wrote:give them faster cap recharge rate .With my cap and remote rep skills at 5 is very hard for me to fit that logi (im only test navi and burst) cap stable (tried cap boosted fit too) with all 3 reps running (with prop mod off) and some reasonable tank.My fitting skills is at 5 too.
You sure about that? I get them both cap stable even running ab ....
|

Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 07:14:00 -
[425] - Quote
So I was thinking. All the other Stealth Bombers are built off Combat hulls.
Should you not then swap the Inquisitor and Tormentor so the Inquisitor is the Combat Ship and has the Purifier as the T2 version and the Tormentor (which was also a mining frigate like the rest of the ships you're turning into support ships) is the Support ship.
More nit-picky than important really. Could be important if you decide to make T2 Logi Frigates though (which you should. |

Andy Landen
Born Crazy
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 16:41:00 -
[426] - Quote
If T2 "Support" frigs can't fit and power 3-5 medium RR, I am not interested. T2 cruisers can fit and power 4-5 large RR. Let's have some tierification going here. |

Reeves CZ
Wing 69 THE R0NIN
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 21:40:00 -
[427] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Reeves CZ wrote:give them faster cap recharge rate .With my cap and remote rep skills at 5 is very hard for me to fit that logi (im only test navi and burst) cap stable (tried cap boosted fit too) with all 3 reps running (with prop mod off) and some reasonable tank.My fitting skills is at 5 too. You sure about that? I get them both cap stable even running ab .... i try fit mwd....
|

Lili Lu
483
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 22:11:00 -
[428] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:So I was thinking. All the other Stealth Bombers are built off Combat hulls.
Should you not then swap the Inquisitor and Tormentor so the Inquisitor is the Combat Ship and has the Purifier as the T2 version and the Tormentor (which was also a mining frigate like the rest of the ships you're turning into support ships) is the Support ship.
More nit-picky than important really. Could be important if you decide to make T2 Logi Frigates though (which you should. Oh no! No! Don't awaken him! Noooooooooooo 
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1932514#post1932514 |

Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
116
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 22:33:00 -
[429] - Quote
JonnyRandom wrote:I'm not in favour of this change.
While a support frigate does open new options for frigate fleets I think it is counter-intuitive to the nature of frigate fleets. They are not long slug-fests. They are fast, deadly, and often end in the blink of an eye.
If support frigates are inevitable I would say it would be more fitting to provide offensive bonuses rather than defensive. Tracking links, etc.
I find myself agreeing with this. |

Lili Lu
484
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 23:41:00 -
[430] - Quote
The problem Zyella is that if they become this way, slinging range and strength bonused remote sensor boosts, remote eccm, tracking links (and now for missiles ), they would just see use as throwaway alt ships for gate or station camping.
Think of poor Jita. The absolute cloud of ships on the 4-4 undock would break the servers and cause all our computers to start smoking.
edit - or any gate near any alternate market hub . . because yes the idea of Jita breaking has appeal. |
|

Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 12:54:00 -
[431] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Xindi Kraid wrote:So I was thinking. All the other Stealth Bombers are built off Combat hulls.
Should you not then swap the Inquisitor and Tormentor so the Inquisitor is the Combat Ship and has the Purifier as the T2 version and the Tormentor (which was also a mining frigate like the rest of the ships you're turning into support ships) is the Support ship.
More nit-picky than important really. Could be important if you decide to make T2 Logi Frigates though (which you should. Oh no! No! Don't awaken him! Noooooooooooo https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1932514#post1932514 I will only agree to accept that story as existing if all references to duvolle are replaced with Roden.
Of course while we're at it, the Enyo should be a Duvolle ship since it's a hybrid platform.
Other than a manufacturer snafu that has loong been ignored. I have no problem with it.
I still submit that the amarr frigates in question should be swapped both due to the model similarities and due to the stealth bomber requiring the Inquisitor to build. (if the model were changed to have similarities to the Tormentor, and that ship were made an ingredient in the Purifier instead of the Inquisitor, I would also be satisfied, but I imagine the just swapping the Tormentor and Inquisitor roles would be much easier.).
I take no issue at all with a drone platform becoming a missile platform as I imagine the hulls are extensively gutted and reworked. |

Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
22
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 13:04:00 -
[432] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:JonnyRandom wrote:I'm not in favour of this change.
While a support frigate does open new options for frigate fleets I think it is counter-intuitive to the nature of frigate fleets. They are not long slug-fests. They are fast, deadly, and often end in the blink of an eye.
If support frigates are inevitable I would say it would be more fitting to provide offensive bonuses rather than defensive. Tracking links, etc. I find myself agreeing with this. I am in partial agreement. I do agree that frigate engagements are quick and violent, but I don't think we should rule out slugfests. I am all for expanding the possibilities of frigate wolfpacks.
In a similar vein to how they are making the EWar ships so half are offensive support and the other half are defensive support, I think they should do the same with the Support ships. They should mirror Logistics ships with lesser strengths, so the Inquisitor (which should, in fact, be the Tormentor) and the Bantam (along with the Augoror and Osprey) should have repair and energy transfer bonuses while the Navitas and Burst (along with the Exequror and Scythe) should have repair and tracking link bonuses. So the Amarr and Caldari support and logistics ships form a cap chain to gain staying power in larger groups, while the Gallente and Minmatar ships are able to operate singularly and can boost the offensive power of a small group. |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1726

|
Posted - 2012.10.01 13:00:00 -
[433] - Quote
Hey everyone. I want to give a special thanks to everyone who came onto Duality to help us test these and other frigates. We'll be getting the testing open again as soon as possible for more feedback.
In the meantime we have a set of tweaks ready for these ships based on the experience testing them. To help them respond faster when repping low-ehp ships we're increasing their scan res significantly to just a bit below the attack frigs. For the same reason we are also proposing that the small rep cycle time be cut in half. Rep amount and cap use are also cut by the same amount so rep/s stays the same but pilots can respond faster to changes in the battlefield.
Let us know what you think! Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|

Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
91
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 13:04:00 -
[434] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: For the same reason we are also proposing that the small rep cycle time be cut in half. Rep amount and cap use are also cut by the same amount so rep/s stays the same but pilots can respond faster to changes in the battlefield.
Good idea, sounds like a way to make small logistics require epic reaction time and steel nerves, as repping should be :P
barely related:
next in the "nerf and buff two related things to change something else", increasing cruise missiles velocity 300% and decreasing their flight time 300%
...I WISH |

Mizhir
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
114
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 13:05:00 -
[435] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to give a special thanks to everyone who came onto Duality to help us test these and other frigates. We'll be getting the testing open again as soon as possible for more feedback.
In the meantime we have a set of tweaks ready for these ships based on the experience testing them. To help them respond faster when repping low-ehp ships we're increasing their scan res significantly to just a bit below the attack frigs. For the same reason we are also proposing that the small rep cycle time be cut in half. Rep amount and cap use are also cut by the same amount so rep/s stays the same but pilots can respond faster to changes in the battlefield.
Let us know what you think!
Sounds good. But does that also affect the local reppairers or is it only remote reppairers? |

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
30
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 13:16:00 -
[436] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to give a special thanks to everyone who came onto Duality to help us test these and other frigates. We'll be getting the testing open again as soon as possible for more feedback.
In the meantime we have a set of tweaks ready for these ships based on the experience testing them. To help them respond faster when repping low-ehp ships we're increasing their scan res significantly to just a bit below the attack frigs. For the same reason we are also proposing that the small rep cycle time be cut in half. Rep amount and cap use are also cut by the same amount so rep/s stays the same but pilots can respond faster to changes in the battlefield.
Let us know what you think!
so the ships get the bonus to cut cycle time? or the better option of changing the modules themselves? |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1730

|
Posted - 2012.10.01 13:19:00 -
[437] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Sounds good. But does that also affect the local reppairers or is it only remote reppairers? Just remote.
Harvey James wrote:so the ships get the bonus to cut cycle time? or the better option of changing the modules themselves? Modules. I've updated the OP but unfortunately the lack of tables makes the module specs a bit hard to read. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
30
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 13:22:00 -
[438] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Mizhir wrote:Sounds good. But does that also affect the local reppairers or is it only remote reppairers? Just remote. Harvey James wrote:so the ships get the bonus to cut cycle time? or the better option of changing the modules themselves? Modules. I've updated the OP but unfortunately the lack of tables makes the module specs a bit hard to read.
well its certainly confusing me now typos perhaps? |

Khaim Khal
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 14:07:00 -
[439] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Modules. I've updated the OP but unfortunately the lack of tables makes the module specs a bit hard to read.
It might be easier to read if you linked to an image (or spreadsheet - GoogleDocs comes to mind). |

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
901
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 14:09:00 -
[440] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to give a special thanks to everyone who came onto Duality to help us test these and other frigates. We'll be getting the testing open again as soon as possible for more feedback.
In the meantime we have a set of tweaks ready for these ships based on the experience testing them. To help them respond faster when repping low-ehp ships we're increasing their scan res significantly to just a bit below the attack frigs. For the same reason we are also proposing that the small rep cycle time be cut in half. Rep amount and cap use are also cut by the same amount so rep/s stays the same but pilots can respond faster to changes in the battlefield.
Let us know what you think!
I think that's a brilliant resolution.
My main concern would become the sensor res becoming used for tackling rather than logistics. :) Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
|
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1734

|
Posted - 2012.10.01 14:20:00 -
[441] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to give a special thanks to everyone who came onto Duality to help us test these and other frigates. We'll be getting the testing open again as soon as possible for more feedback.
In the meantime we have a set of tweaks ready for these ships based on the experience testing them. To help them respond faster when repping low-ehp ships we're increasing their scan res significantly to just a bit below the attack frigs. For the same reason we are also proposing that the small rep cycle time be cut in half. Rep amount and cap use are also cut by the same amount so rep/s stays the same but pilots can respond faster to changes in the battlefield.
Let us know what you think! I think that's a brilliant resolution. My main concern would become the sensor res becoming used for tackling rather than logistics. :)
Scan res is still lower than attack frigs Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
30
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 14:26:00 -
[442] - Quote
i also noticed the hp of the ships are now odd numbers :( |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
43
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 14:37:00 -
[443] - Quote
do they still have ridiculous bad align time that'll get them killed by gateguns? Because if so it's going to be yet another ship that roaming pirate bros can't really use unless they like doing nothing for 15 minutes after every fight. |

Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
91
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 14:42:00 -
[444] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:do they still have ridiculous bad align time that'll get them killed by gateguns? Because if so it's going to be yet another ship that roaming pirate bros can't really use unless they like doing nothing for 15 minutes after every fight.
please wait for crimewatch changes to be finally announced before commenting as such |

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
43
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 14:51:00 -
[445] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:do they still have ridiculous bad align time that'll get them killed by gateguns? Because if so it's going to be yet another ship that roaming pirate bros can't really use unless they like doing nothing for 15 minutes after every fight. please wait for crimewatch changes to be finally announced before commenting as such
Are we really expecting some sort of pirate love? I thought it was just some bounty stuff and more visible (potentially less broken?) timers. |

Nagarythe Tinurandir
Random Rule Conform Corpname A Point In Space
53
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 15:30:00 -
[446] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Are we really expecting some sort of pirate love? I thought it was just some bounty stuff and more visible (potentially less broken?) timers.
well, they are talking about "bounty hunting coming of age" on the features site. this implies imho, that pirates need to get some love to. bounty hunters need dirty scum as prey to hunt ;)
|

SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Volition Cult
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 15:39:00 -
[447] - Quote
Like the changes overall so far, glad to see you listened to the locking and cycle time issues.
For everyone's viewing pleasure, I made two quick tables for the modules stats in the OP so its a tad easier to read.
Small Armor Reps Small Shield Transfers |

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
30
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 15:46:00 -
[448] - Quote
thats very helpful thanks i wonder whats going to happen to the micro shield transporters then deletion maybe? |

Akili Unik
Secure Arms Trade Coalition Secure Arms Trade Coalitions
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 02:59:00 -
[449] - Quote
So what will happen to the rigs we've applied to those mining frigates? |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
1863

|
Posted - 2012.10.05 13:30:00 -
[450] - Quote
Akili Unik wrote:So what will happen to the rigs we've applied to those mining frigates?
You can use them to hold more cap boosters, or alternatively replace them with another set of rigs. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|
|

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
223
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 14:08:00 -
[451] - Quote
Would giving these ships 3 weapons for their 3 slots (compared to the 2 they have now) bring these ships too close to designated combat frigates? I really love the special roles, but the more frigates actually being viable in combat the better... All other frigates would still be better for combat, but it gives people an extra choice for whatever reason they have and the ability to surprise an enemy when they expect an unarmed combat ship is a big force to Eve Gameplay. Please... None of the stats I see could be a threat towards the other combat oriented ships even with a full rack.
Pinky |

Blastil
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 17:26:00 -
[452] - Quote
Am I the only one who sees these as pretty much useless in frigate fights? even with the range bonus it will be hard to keep up with faster attack frigates.
Where I DO see these working well (and this is a good thing) is working in groups helping sniper battleships since they do as much rep as an un-bonused large rep. Alternately in supporting groups of t1 cruisers or t2 sniper ships (but they're more vunlerable against medi |

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
65
|
Posted - 2012.10.06 20:36:00 -
[453] - Quote
@ CCP Fozzie how about reducing the pg/cpu on energy transfers aswell? |

Djakku
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
123
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 12:36:00 -
[454] - Quote
Fix ECM whilst you're at it. |

VNX
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 12:36:00 -
[455] - Quote
Only time will tell, but my only concern is that this might kill solo frig pvp, and thats a shame..  |

TriadSte
IronPig Sev3rance
116
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 12:47:00 -
[456] - Quote
CCP Fozzie
It seems that yourself [especially yourself] as well as CCP seem intent on fixing things which are not broken yet refuse to fix things which are broken.
I very much doubt that I myself will ever see a frigate logi cruiser down in null sec. It will be a killed in seconds.. end of story
You'll probably make these really easy and fast to get into also? a week to train frigate to 5 is all you'll need? then you can train logistics.
Fix POS....we've only been waiting to fit subsystems for how long now?
When will you actually sort out railguns? They're still epicly rubbish, can they even track a frieghter? [had to for lulz]
There is much too fix, yet you continue to implement stuff into the game which is not needed. I think a long hard look at the priorities is a must.
|

unbless83
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
9
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 13:17:00 -
[457] - Quote
um, if ur cutting the cycle times on the reps... how are these lil frigs gonna have enough cap to stable rep anything?
|

Shalua Rui
FEROX AQUILA
5876
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 14:20:00 -
[458] - Quote
Nice... how about redesigning the Bantam while you're at it... hm?  Ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire! |

standsalone
Deaths Head Brigade Extinction Level Event.
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 14:36:00 -
[459] - Quote
I like the idea.
i love frig combat, many think its a waste of time...
you can now have fast cheap escort fleets.
A cheap way to help a friend out
i think that this will bring more people into it which means more chances of running into other frigs to engage
theres quite a bit of complaining about how this will make things harder or how its too overpowered with a logi frig against you... well, whats stopping you from getting a couple destroyers?
the low-sec guys might not like this logi thing but in nullsec. i expect to run into a lot of frig roams and i cant wait!! |

Snow Iskold
Arturis Coalition TERRA FIRMA.
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 14:39:00 -
[460] - Quote
This seems WAY too normalized. It seems that as time progresses Eve is suffering from the same problem that destroyed Starcraft 1. As the game progressed and more and more "balancing and improvement" patches came out, there became little to no difference between the races.
Almost identical slot layouts, exactly the same mod bonuses, it's lazy game balancing. Why not give the gallente and amarr logi frigs a larger drone bay and a boost to logi DRONES and drop them to 1 HI slot to avoid OP logi frigs.
Give the minmatar a little more capability for firepower and speed, smaller sig radius, but make them a little weaker on the defense, so that they are in line with the entire idea for minmatar, Offence > Defense.
All things in this game do not need to be 100% equal, they need to be powerful in some ways weak in others, so that in some situations they are strong, and others not. Come on people! |
|

Stegas Tyrano
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
7
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 14:54:00 -
[461] - Quote
Please give them alternate boni for Tracking Links, Remote Sensor Boosters, Remote ECCM and Energy Transfer pleaaase  |

The Bazzalisk
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
21
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:18:00 -
[462] - Quote
New ship roles are great and all, but other than lulz frigate roams, I can't see any practical use for these. inb4 they are purely used for cynos. |

Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 15:40:00 -
[463] - Quote
I'm gonna take a guess that hopefully the new destroyers are gonna be as cheap as currently existing destroyers, and then hopefully smaller and faster so they can have the speed and agility to keep up with frigs too, so they can be a good counter to these new logi frigates, making small gang pvp a bit more varied, and again hopefully will have more balanced slots 'cos the coercers single mid-slot at the moment makes it useless as anything other than a cheap salvage ship since 8 lasers plus an armour rep makes it cap drain unmanagebly fast.
May try and convince my corp to get into frig PvP once these are going though 'cos it sounds like a lot of fun.
Any chance that the size of destroyers will be altered? At the moment they're as large as cruisers and that doesn't make all much sense... |

Gaara's sniper
Raging Ducks Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:18:00 -
[464] - Quote
solo pvp is dead. Now for sure. |

Daniel Essig
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 16:33:00 -
[465] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone.
The exact opposite of what you just said, is one of the reasons EVE has issues attracting new players.
Think . |

Borachon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 17:50:00 -
[466] - Quote
And here I was hoping the Navitas would get a hull rep bonus to help all of the Taranis pilots out there.  |

Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
67
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 18:05:00 -
[467] - Quote
Borachon wrote:And here I was hoping the Navitas would get a hull rep bonus to help all of the Taranis pilots out there. 
Lol but you have a point there most gallente blaster frigs hull tank It would be nice if they did make it viable at hull repping that's a area that could do with some love. |

Quontor Zarrkos
Zervas Aeronautics WHY so Seri0Us
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 19:01:00 -
[468] - Quote
Quote:Please give them alternate boni for Tracking Links, Remote Sensor Boosters, Remote ECCM and Energy Transfer pleaaase
I second this, this is great. However the one with energy transfer bonus could be a bit unbalanced. |

Bruce Destro
HIFI INDUSTRIAL
7
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 20:57:00 -
[469] - Quote
Having seven targets in a frigate is a bit ridiculous. i feel it should be more around 5, and require target switching in somewhat larger fleets. this will also help younger pilots get the feel of much larger fleets, as well as give solo pilots a BIT of a chance. |

Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
22
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 19:10:00 -
[470] - Quote
I thought the logi frigs were supposed to fit medium remote reps (same as logi cruisers fit larges) |
|

GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
18
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 05:57:00 -
[471] - Quote
I knew there was a reason i stock piled 50 centii a-type small remote armour reps at 10k each =D Cha Ching! |

Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
65
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 06:52:00 -
[472] - Quote
Looking back on all of this, these logi frigs just make more and more sense as other changes are revealed. You won't be seeing the annoying neutral RR in hisec with the Crime Watch changes. The new missile destroyers will just alpha these out of existence, or the Amarr one will neut them dry, or the Gallente one will droneswarm them. Nevermind the EW frig changes.
There are so many counters to these things. Don't declare solo dead just yet. |

Brego Tralowski
T1 Module Supplies.
67
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 15:18:00 -
[473] - Quote
What a great addition to the game I sense RvB will have a field day with these in their fleets!
Supplying Quality goods to the masses.
See 'T1 Module supplies' for all your T1 needs or T1.com in game chat. |

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
212
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 18:35:00 -
[474] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:serras bang wrote:wouldnt the logicl path here be to make the osprey and its counter parts into a full t1 logi criuser. ? I completely agree.
Doing the same with existing T1 logi cruisers? Does that mean there will also be a new ORE cruiser mining ship in the spring 2013 expansion?
|

Dersen Lowery
Knavery Inc. StructureDamage
144
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 19:00:00 -
[475] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:I thought the logi frigs were supposed to fit medium remote reps (same as logi cruisers fit larges)
T2 logi cruisers fit larges. The new T1 logi cruisers are designed around medium reps, so it makes sense that the new T1 logi frigates would be designed around small reps.
Now, if T2 logi frigates ever appear... |

Reppyk
The Black Shell
193
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 22:31:00 -
[476] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Now, if T2 logi frigates ever appear... T2 navitas with capital hull repairs is a go. |
|

CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
2044

|
Posted - 2012.10.25 22:40:00 -
[477] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:serras bang wrote:wouldnt the logicl path here be to make the osprey and its counter parts into a full t1 logi criuser. ? I completely agree. Doing the same with existing T1 logi cruisers? Does that mean there will also be a new ORE cruiser mining ship in the spring 2013 expansion?
ORE has a complete line of mining barges in T1 and T2 variants for your excavation needs. Game Designer | Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
|

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
552
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 22:49:00 -
[478] - Quote
Switch Navitas armor repping bonus with a hull repping bonus and we're good to go. 
|

S1dy
Twinstar Universal Services Ewoks
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 08:37:00 -
[479] - Quote
Because of this changes and that comment, i made a few runs in the new EFT.
It is possible to fit Medium Shield Transfer but not viable cause the Burst is only able to fit 1 Meta Medium Shield Transfer that boosts 288 HP in 5 s. With 3 Small Shield Transfers it is able to boost 216 HP in 2.25 s. So you have 480 HP in 5 s. There's also the EHP issue, as always, where a Small Shield Transfer Burst has 5799. A Medium Shield Transfer Burst got only 3712 EHP with MWD (not capstable) and 3809 EHP with AB. And even the range isn't that much better. A Medium Shield Transfer has 36 km range, the small one 28.8 km.
Here's another one:
[Burst, PvP Burst Medium] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter 'Regard' Power Projector
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Ancillary Current Router I
It needs a 2% Power Grid Implant (or you fit a T2 Rig) and capacitor lasts for 48 s all online or 1m 8s with Invu offline. It's capstable with only 1 Medium Shield Transfer online (-15,6/+21,6), so you could pulse with the second one if the fight is in its heat. But then again there are nearly no EHP (2919 at max), no Propulsion with only 414 m/s and the Energy Transfer has a 4.2 km range. Even with its 576 HP boost in 5s it's not viable in my opinion.
The Bantam needs no futher look at because its slotlayout is even crappier for Medium Shield Transfers. So i don't see any advantage with this new fitting requirements. |

Cadava Mendosa
Blackstar Privateer Consortium Enigma Project
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 09:23:00 -
[480] - Quote
Am I missing something? I didn't think the support frigates were meant to be able to fit medium reppers? I thought that was the realm of cruisers and RR setups? |
|

androch
River-Rats in space The Ditanian Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.11.04 15:17:00 -
[481] - Quote
frigs with reppers... what a worthless idea |

Executus Primus
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
5
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 15:19:00 -
[482] - Quote
Not exactly well balanced, the bantam is worse in any configuration than the burst.
Lets assume a standard fit:
[NEW Burst, New Setup 1] Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Damage Control II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
cap stable at 41% without mwd on, goes 2463 m/s, EHP 5553, sig 40
[NEW Bantam, New Setup 1] Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Damage Control II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II
NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
comes closest:
not cap stable last 31m without mwd, goes 2151m/s, ehp 5400 and has 40sig (due to meta shield externder, other config would be higher)
I tried the config the bantam in many ways, but in all cases it comes out worse than the burst, even with "special fits". |

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
119
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 16:05:00 -
[483] - Quote
It has a fuckton of sensorstrength though, compared to the Burst. |

Executus Primus
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
5
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 16:50:00 -
[484] - Quote
Sheynan wrote:It has a fuckton of sensorstrength though, compared to the Burst.
ecm resistance is arguable not that important with frig fleets where your power projection is distributed. Unless all people start to fly griffins. |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
373
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 19:29:00 -
[485] - Quote
Executus Primus wrote:Sheynan wrote:It has a fuckton of sensorstrength though, compared to the Burst. ecm resistance is arguable not that important with frig fleets where your power projection is distributed. Unless all people start to fly griffins. Not necessarily. Strengths on frigate scale are so small that ECM on unbonused ships are frequently successful and then you are of course under the constant threat of dishonour drones being deployed against you ... many/most frigate pilots in FW took to the strength implants like it was the second coming for just that reason, just no other viable way (read: not enough slots in the world) to buffer against ECM on that scale. |

Executus Primus
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
5
|
Posted - 2012.11.10 19:58:00 -
[486] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Executus Primus wrote:Sheynan wrote:It has a fuckton of sensorstrength though, compared to the Burst. ecm resistance is arguable not that important with frig fleets where your power projection is distributed. Unless all people start to fly griffins. Not necessarily. Strengths on frigate scale are so small that ECM on unbonused ships are frequently successful and then you are of course under the constant threat of dishonour drones being deployed against you ... many/most frigate pilots in FW took to the strength implants like it was the second coming for just that reason, just no other viable way (read: not enough slots in the world) to buffer against ECM on that scale.
I don't quite agree that a 15 sstr compared to a 11,3 sstr is going to be that huge of an advantage given the other drawbacks of the bantam:
a.) due to the lowslot compared to the midslot on the bantam, the burst has better cap regen. b.) The burst has higher pg, the bantam has a higher cpu. As i see it, the cpu is wasted on both frigs, it would make sense IF you wanted to fit an MASB, but that makes no sense - if you fly with logi frigs you want buffer, because in that frig scenario, alpha/burst dps is your main enemy.
The stats are worse on the bantam (since i dont see much use for cpu, feel free to come up with a fit that uses it...), and the slot layout is worse considering its primary function (repping, for that you need energy). I dont see a way to use that extra mid slot of the bantam for anything else than a cap recharger, without compromising its rep ability. And that module is just plain worse than a power relay. |

Sunglasses At Midnight
Concordiat Tribal Band
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 00:47:00 -
[487] - Quote
Executus Primus wrote:Not exactly well balanced, the bantam is worse in any configuration than the burst.
Lets assume a standard fit:
[NEW Burst, New Setup 1] Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Damage Control II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
cap stable at 41% without mwd on, goes 2463 m/s, EHP 5553, sig 40
[NEW Bantam, New Setup 1] Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Damage Control II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II
NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter NEW Small S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
comes closest:
not cap stable last 31m without mwd, goes 2151m/s, ehp 5400 and has 40sig (due to meta shield externder, other config would be higher)
I tried the config the bantam in many ways, but in all cases it comes out worse than the burst, even with "special fits".
The Bantam has more sensor strength. Also, even with these new logistics frigates, not many small gang frigate battles last 31 minutes... so the Bantam guy probably won't cap out, just because the difference because lasting 31 minutes and being stable at 41% probably isn't that big. Yes, the speed advantage is nice, but the Bantam is more resistant to damps. |

Holy One
261
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 01:39:00 -
[488] - Quote
This looks great on paper but in reality, it will just turn frigate pvp in to static slugfests and the rr frig will just become the new fotm for dual boxing trolls.
|

androch
River-Rats in space The Ditanian Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 10:41:00 -
[489] - Quote
frigs with repping mods... am i the only one tho sees this as completely useless? |

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
67
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 15:31:00 -
[490] - Quote
androch wrote:frigs with repping mods... am i the only one tho sees this as completely useless?
Yes |
|

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
122
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 20:35:00 -
[491] - Quote
Terranid Meester wrote:androch wrote:frigs with repping mods... am i the only one tho sees this as completely useless? Yes
"A burst fitted with deadspace shield transporters and backed up with Tengu boosts reps as much as a standard Scimitar"
*flies away* |

Erim Solfara
inFluX.
57
|
Posted - 2012.11.14 21:03:00 -
[492] - Quote
MisterNick wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Don't you care about the fact that the Tormentor used to be the mining frigate so it breaks the pattern of mining frigates becoming logi frigates? Not really, no This is why CCP devs best devs  Besides, they wanted to make the tormentor into a minigeddon, and it does really look like the front of the geddon 
The inquisitor also looks like the front of a geddon, that's not really an argument.
It's such a simple fix, and the vast majority of people that are expressing an opinion about the tormentor/inquisitor in this thread are in favour of swapping the models to keep things consistent.
I also happen to hate the tormentor model based on the thruster placing meaning it'd just spin like a tomahawk through space, that bugs me. |

Mr John Smith
State War Academy Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 06:04:00 -
[493] - Quote
Question; Why do the Amarr and Caldari variants have an extra low and medium slot compared to Gallente and Matari, respectively?
I looked over the stats and there doesn't seem to be anything really compensating for this. At frigate level a single slot can make a huge difference to the ships overall performance, was this taken into consideration? |

Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
184
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 11:25:00 -
[494] - Quote
Mr John Smith wrote:Question; Why do the Amarr and Caldari variants have an extra low and medium slot compared to Gallente and Matari, respectively?
I looked over the stats and there doesn't seem to be anything really compensating for this. At frigate level a single slot can make a huge difference to the ships overall performance, was this taken into consideration? They don't, they all have 9 slots... |

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
174
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 14:32:00 -
[495] - Quote
While a fun idea, after playing with fittings and cap on Buckingham, i'm not sure these are going to be the 'game' changers some people think they will be.
They might help you win a 2 vs 1 fight, but then again, 2 frigates vs 1 is normally going to win anyway.
As for force multiplier, I'm not convinced at all that bringing these instead of more DPS is going to have any realistic out come of any fights above these numbers.
The shield transfer amount is far too small, and the capacitor is a nightmare to manage.
Fitting it with a MWD and even resists and tiny tiny tiny buffer is doable, but again, no capacitor to maintain that for any real use.
Limited range, tiny buffer and poor resists, and other frigates capable of coming in at 3000 m/s and doing 200-300 DPS on your ass, mean these ships will pop like bubble gum. 100% Caldari focused fleet PvP and FW: Join us.
www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/recruitment
Is that a rocket in your pocket, or are you just excited to fly Caldari? |

Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
108
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 23:34:00 -
[496] - Quote
I have not tried these out. However, I'm against more logistics ships in game. [SMUG]-áSORRY for party rocking! v0v
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Garr Earthbender
Justified Chaos
81
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 21:52:00 -
[497] - Quote
I'm for it. I don't want to fly T2 100+ mill logi every day, but I don't mind losing a ship that costs a total of 10 mill ( or much less for frigates) every day. -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1351

|
Posted - 2012.12.04 10:38:00 -
[498] - Quote
Unsticking, let's make some space for future threads. |
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