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Goons "legalising" botting!!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
Satav Latinum Exports 26	Posted - 2011.09.29 20:51:00 - [211] - Quote Vernn Miller wrote: I must have missed that part in the EULA that says alliances have to enforce CCP`s laws. Also, the copy pasta you quoted makes no mention of any botting activities, it just reminds members of a certain alliance and coalition of alliances not to shoot blues if they hoard all the havens or sanctums in a system for a large amount of time. Large entities have their own rules and if you fail to respect them I think it`s fair to get the boot. If you want to do some good in regards to botting, fly to some major mission hubs and have a look on dscan for CNRs that belong to characters not even two months old and are in a 1 man player corporation with 0% tax. And stop being a ******. No, we don't have to enfore CCP's laws. But we do obey them and don't condone those who break them. Yes, we respect each alliances way to run their group, cause that's just how they want to do it and if you don't like it then theres the door. (This is irrelevant when you openly tell people not to report someone that is known to bot. In effect, you're telling them to break the EULA to stay in the "brotherhood.") All the TEST and GSF postes here confirm that they think that this is "their" eve and that they can do whatever they want. And all the posts are obviously deliberately denying the truth and acting like something doesn't exist. Personally, i gave up on CCP being effective against botters a long time ago, so i now blast ratting and mining bots out ot the sky all the time because apparently there is so much corruption that nothing will ever get done about it.
Satav Latinum Exports 26	Posted - 2011.09.29 20:56:00 - [212] - Quote Mara Tessidar wrote: Satav wrote: Angry, angry words I don't see any bolded text. I do see CCP Sreegs and Vile Rat both saying that this thread is stupid, though. Update for you, This isn't the Italian mob. No one is above the law. I didn't right angry words. I wrote true words, which is more than i can say for anyone i've ever talked to in GS. Truth hurts don't it? Gives me the feeling of deja vu when BOB thought that because several of their leaders worked at CCP that they could do whatever they wanted and could get away with it. Recall history, dude. "Calling in you big dogs" won't work. Not anymore. Go fail troll someone else, like " give us your freighters" thread.
N1gella Laws0n Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 4	Posted - 2011.09.29 20:59:00 - [213] - Quote inb4 CCP lies, Goon lies, botter lies... oh wait... also, sack GM Rust, he could be more useless, I just can't figure out how.
Mara Tessidar Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 76	Posted - 2011.09.29 21:00:00 - [214] - Quote Where, oh where, did you read that Goons were "Above the law" outside of the OP? A CCP employee has told you that is not the case. Vile Rat has told you that is not the case. What, pray tell, leads you to the conclusion that Goons are a giant botting alliance that refuses to follow the EULA and gets away with it? Notify: You are eaten by the Whumpus http://goo.gl/uX5vk
Homo Erectus Evolution The Initiative. 41	Posted - 2011.09.29 21:15:00 - [215] - Quote I think you're missing the irritation. If best I could quote the wtf it would be: GoonSwarm Federation Alliance Update wrote: we have one rule in Goonswarm: we donGÇÖt ** other goons. and Vile rat wrote:** Consider this an official GSF response to this garbage thread. We do not condone botting. We think it is destructive to the game. So if a goon was being destructive to the game, would you break your one rule? If you throw in the repeated "we are not police" blow-offs, what do you think people think the answer to that question would be?
Cypermethren Celtic Cartage And Hauling 9	Posted - 2011.09.29 21:58:00 - [216] - Quote CCP Sreegs wrote: Mallikanth wrote: CCP Sreegs wrote: ... I mean evidence of coordinated wrongdoing. CCP Sreegs, what do you mean by "coordinated "? It gives me the impression that because you need other people to coordinate anything then any evidence of a "lone" botter is not wanted? Surely that can't be right but I can think of no other logical meaning for the way this is phrased. A botter should be reported no matter what or who he's working with. And on a related note, can you give examples as to what classes as Evidence? Player logs definitely show nothing last time I checked. Thanks. I'm REALLY uninterested in interfering with this thread, or its allegations. I have no opinion on them specifically and if I did the opinion would be carried out either in the action or inaction of an administrative response. I don't really expect to get good feedback, but what I DO expect is that I can lay out for you quite clearly that we do not condone malicious behavior and that given proof of that behavior we will act on it. Some of you will say we won't, but I'm saying we will. It's really futile for me to argue with you on the internet about whether something I say is true, as only I can see what's occurring from my perspective. Getting into a war of words isn't what I'm here for. This thread is not about the lone botter. There's a mechanism in place, that we built, for you to handle such. This thread is about allegations of organized corporate misconduct, which then had the allegation that we were somehow implicit in this misconduct attached to it. So... the ONLY reason I even posted in this wonderful thread was to state quite categorically that our detection and action on botting activities is clinical. We're not taking sides. We're not choosing not to act because we're scared that insert x group of players here is going to get mad. We're acting on our results which are evidence based. What is evidence you ask? Words on a forum aren't it. If you believe that there is some ACTION which can be examined and responded to is occurring, then I'm happy to hear what you have to say, conduct an analysis and handle things on our end. What's simply NOT going to happen is for someone to paste some text on a forum and for us to run out and ban a bunch of people. That's just crazy speak. If you suspect someone of botting, report them using the tool. If you suspect greater misconduct, email me and if I'm able to prove your allegations they'll be acted upon appropriately. If you believe someone at CCP isn't acting appropriately, myself included, you're ENCOURAGED to report said behavior to IA. If you believe that CCP isn't acting on whomever you think should be acted on because we're somehow profiting from it I can tell you that's some tinfoil hattery. You can then call me a liar and a lot of people's time will be wasted reading it and coming away unfulfilled. We do not believe we benefit from people cheating and when we find such behavior we act on it. We don't have to go run to the CFO every time we catch someone doing something terrible because we lack the courage or desire to deliver a level playing field. tl;dr if you have something you think should be looked at mail it to me. Nice. Very nice CCP. So youv'e just said that you're not going to take action against people which you know damn well are botting/RMT, untill WE THE PLAYERS bring YOU evidance. In the meantime, we can have CSM's making posts that even a ****** chimp understands is telling goonswarm members to leave the other goonswarm botters alone as it causes alot of internal and external BS/Drama, both confirming that he knows its happening and requesting others that know about it to keep quiet or face the wrath of the boot. When a CSM is elected to represent the community, you make them sign NDA's. Do you realy not care or did not put any precautions in to stop you're CSM's from completely badmouthing/giving you're game an even more tarnished name? What will you do CCP if you dont give a CSM what they've been pushing for - and CSM decides to get even with you - not by breaking the EULA but by leaking more internal stuff - such as more in-depth proof of you/CCP's "look the other way" policy with botters. You're an absolute discrace, Scraag, to come here to tell us if we want something done about the obvious/rampant RMT/BOT issue - and people of power (coughCSM) decide to make a public post which RUBS IT IN OUR FACE, then turn around and tell us you're not going to do anything untill we provide you with the necessary evidance to remove them? No wonder subscribers are dropping like flies. Way to go to furher proove that you cater to specific alliances, are in the know to exactly what they are doing, and making excuses as to why you cant/wont do anything about it. Had this story been about a person whom Bots/RMT's in a smaller, lesser known alliance that did not have a CSM in their midsts you would have jumped at the oportunity to make a story about it to prove to us players that you're keeping you're word and doing what the playerbase wants. Instead, because of all the bad wrap and utter hell that will follow if the true workings of your're head CSM in regards to their botting/RMT ventures you choose to ignore it - the same reasons you've been ignoring alot of ** that has lost you so many subscribers in the first place. You choose to ignore things that you feel are too difficult to handle under the reasoning that players will eventualy forget and rage about something else. Absolutely Pathetic, CCP.
captain foivos State War Academy Caldari State 3	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:08:00 - [217] - Quote Obviously the conclusion we can draw from this is that T20 still works at CCP and all of the devs are busy botting with Goonswarm characters. There's no other possible explanation.
Desert Ice78 Gryphon River Industries R-I-P 6	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:16:00 - [218] - Quote Vile rat wrote: Consider this an official GSF response to this garbage thread. We do not condone botting. We think it is destructive to the game. We tell people not to bot and strongly discourage it because it's stupid and easily caught, not to mention it cheapens the effort of players who play the game the way it was meant to be. We are also not CCP's policemen. It is not our job to police botting or EULA breaking activities in the game, this is CCP's job. CCP Sreegs is doing a wonderful job policing this and we support his actions. Asking a playerbase to police EULA infractions is dumb and it is not our place. There is a report bot mechanism, we encourage people to use it. I call utter Bullshit. Even a casual comparison between this statement and the original internal GSF communication shows how farcical your denials are. I am a Pod Pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1109/Hostile-Takeover-by-Marek-Okon[1].jpg
Vardec Crom Skyforger Tactical Narcotics Team 6	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:18:00 - [219] - Quote The Apostle wrote: We all know it goes on. We all *** and complain and moan about it. But THIS drew my ire. GoonSwarm Federation Alliance Update GÇô September 28th Quote: Blue-On-Blue Violence This is a sensitive GÇô even a touchy GÇô subject, so let me say that while he is, indeed, a keen ratter** GÇô a very keen ratter if we are honest GÇô we have one rule in Goonswarm: we donGÇÖt **** other goons. Oh and we donGÇÖt play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either: But if it were the case that he had been ratting just a little too exuberantly for peoplesGÇÖ liking, or if he had offended them by consistently ignoring their conversation requests for a brief window of, say, seventeen or eighteen hours, for instance, then it would be goon-**** to report him** or to kill him. This will land you and your corp in trouble as all we know is that someone shot blues. So at what point does an alliance, with it's head as THE CSM CHAIRMAN, allow bots, WHICH IS AGAINST THE EULA, and ACTIVELY THREATEN MEMBERS WITH EXPULSION if they should report said bots. I know for a fact that several corps/alliances have a zero tolerance for bots, including a DekCo kiss buddy alliance called FA. Hoorah to Zag for that! But for Goons to threaten expulsion flies directly in the face of the EULA. Surely even encouraging/harbouring such activity must be embedded into the EULA immediately. NO-ONE should have ANY tolerance for bots let alone SUPPORT them. I call on CCP to start banning CORPS and ALLIANCES for ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING botting, knowingly and in the face of it being downright illegal ingame. And for the sensible Goons (are there any?), if you think you can be threatened with expulsion for bot-reporting, just remember that no CEO will know, or can know, if you reported the cheating, thieving SOB!! Yep Ban 8000 accounts. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
Seymore Graves The New Era C0NVICTED 1	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:19:00 - [220] - Quote This thread is fantastic.
Barbelo Valentinian The Scope Gallente Federation 50	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:32:00 - [221] - Quote Jita Alt666 wrote: Barbelo Valentinian wrote: CCP Sreegs wrote: We already reserve that right... Expression of curiosity: weren't you leader of the Goons in EVE once? Request for verification of personal reminiscence: Didn't you claim that your aim was for the Goons to "break EVE" or something? Eager questioning: What happened with all that, and how come you're working for CCP now - and how can we trust you that your not still interested in "breaking EVE"? Because the company that makes the game hired him. Or do you believe that CCP are so terrible they would actively hire people they know who are going to aim to destroy their products? "Terrible"? I don't think that's quite the right word. "Silly"? Perhaps. After all, the game has been going somewhat downhill since ex-Goons were majorly involved. In the clear light of day, it seems singularly bizarre that a company would hire someone who had previously claimed that his aim was to "break EVE". To put him in charge of security seems the height of absurdity. Are we supposed to just forget all about that? You don't think it would be a bit of a jolly jape to bring down an MMO? Especially if you got paid for doing it?
Mendolus Aurelius Federation 48	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:41:00 - [222] - Quote Barbelo Valentinian wrote: In the clear light of day, it seems singularly bizarre that a company would hire someone who had previously claimed that his aim was to "break EVE". To put him in charge of security seems the height of absurdity. Are we supposed to just forget all about that? That's a rather naive outlook in the grand scheme of things I think, sort of the way felons in real life get branded as violent criminals in society even if they committed a victimless crime like growing too much herb for personal use in their own backyards or something. It's all a matter of perception, in some sense, Sreegs would be the perfect person to take charge of security, being that he may very well have been poking at and learning its ins and outs, weaknesses, shortcomings, and loopholes of EVE Online for years before he was hired, who else would know better from a player perspective where the weak spots are? CCP probably pays good money to have a guy who once tried to pry his way into those nooks and crannies instead now filling them up with putty, so to speak. Money is the great motivator after all, you think someone would choose the joy of dismantling an online video game over food on the table? I don't, unless they're mentally or emotionally unstable, or have some other such extenuating circumstances. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie.
Kengutsi Akira GloboTech Industries 14	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:46:00 - [223] - Quote The Apostle wrote: Oh and we donGÇÖt play cop for CCP in their own game by reporting or petitioning goons, either bolded for the ostriches who cant read Quote: In the clear light of day, it seems singularly bizarre that a company would hire someone who had previously claimed that his aim was to "break EVE". To put him in charge of security seems the height of absurdity. Are we supposed to just forget all about that? I believe the original quote was they dont want to destroy THE game, just YOUR game.
The Apostle The Black Priests 137	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:47:00 - [224] - Quote OK. I'm out of bed and I see this post has gone on a bit longer than I expected. Some of the reactions are sad but expected. I also understand the bias appearing. I need it back on track. This is obviously a hot item and I'd like to see something good come of it. Can we get a TL;DR'd by a CSM/Goon and CCP Screegs. There are 2 areas I need clarified. A) From CSM Vile Rat - Goon Quote: Asking a playerbase to police EULA infractions is dumb and it is not our place. There is a report bot mechanism, we encourage people to use it. First you're saying that it is NOT up to the playerbase. So why bother declaring a policy asking members to report botting ONLY to diplos? Then you state you encourage reporting. Well look. This has clearly been refuted. I am not going to quote/quote/quote this to infinity. Goons clearly state that reporting is Goon**ing and will neccessitate a boot. Even if this is "refuted" with clever wordplay it clearly does NOT encourage reporting. I understand not shooting blue-on-blue. Goons/anyone have every right to discourage that practise. That part is not at issue. So short version. i) If you don't care about bots why have a policy AT ALL? ii) Why did the OP specifically state that REPORTING bots is Goon**ing if you ENCOURAGE reporting? B) To CCP Screegs "If evidence" please report bla bla. We all know that 99% of 0.0, and specifically around Goontown is a no go zone to any bot hunters. How is this evidence to be determined? ONLY way I see is proactive CCP intervention or by alliance members reporting? For CCP to be proactive, I understand how difficult and costly it is to track bots so I accept it's a difficult task for CCP despite the naysayers. What I don't get is how you point-blank refuse to acknowledge the intent of the OP (in fact you go so far as to belittle the intent of this topic which I take exception to). I completely understand the need to remain objective and not being swayed on internet topics but the content and intent of the OP is very specific. I'm ignoring how it has been discussed, heated or otherwise. What I need (or we?) 1) Someone in CCP needs to categorically clarify the rules where an alliance has said their members CANNOT report a bot. I have personally been in trouble for threatening to use the petioning system. I suspect that threatening to prevent use of the petition is just as (if not more so) damaging to the integrity and intent of said system 2) Someone in CCP needs to categorically clarify the rules where corps/alliances harbour/secure bottting and deliberately obfuscate attempts by members to report said bots. It is this very public declaration of intent by an alliance (heavily CSM orientated) that sends an absolute and definitively bad message to everyone, in AND out of game. THAT is the part that needs to be addressed. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
Kengutsi Akira GloboTech Industries 14	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:52:00 - [225] - Quote Its pretty obvious, CCP are unwilling to ban paying players (bots) themselves so theyre putting the power into the hands of the players (who refuse to do CCP's dirty work for them). so CCP endorses botting :D They just cant say that outright or ppl will rage
Cypermethren Celtic Cartage And Hauling 9	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:52:00 - [226] - Quote Vile rat wrote: Homo Erectus wrote: i'm no one's friend and as vile rat knows i've never tried to be. but don't alt-backup a goon csm post when they get called out. you put on the csm badge, don't pull the "we're not policemen" No, you're not, and no one said you were, and no one elected you to be. But leading a 50,000,000 conglomeration of zombies with a "we're not policemen, and look the other way at blue bots" doesn't make anyone with 2 eyes happy. Are you suggesting I allow our guys to take the law into their own hands and shoot allies based on their own opinions? "this jerk who keeps hanging around my ratting spot sure rats a lot, but I want this system I'll say he was a bot and take him out!" This is not something I condone. Report bots. They have the technical ability to get rid of these jerks. I'm not interested in arbitrating drama. Stop twisting the origional statement The origional statement speficily entailed to NOT shoot the BOTTING Players ("extreamly keen ratters....that may notreply to pm's for 13-18 hours at a time...") And at the same time that you're not police for CCP. So yes - in part your'e statement is true - No big alliance wants players starting to shoot other players because it will cause a diplomatic nightmare, cause corps within the alliance to break off and leave , or worse stay and cause more drama because they wont work together. But you're trying to swing the focus away from the SINGLE POINT IN THIS THREAD THAT PEOPLE ARE PISSED OFF ABOUT. You told you're members NOT to "play cop" for CCP, meaning you do not want you're members reporting other members for botting, as it will cause teh same ****, plus way more because of you're CSM position/involvements in the matter. God this game you and CCP are playing shitts me. It's like going to you're boss about a position advertised at you're work - you ask them hey if X person was to apply would you be less interested in tehm because of their Age or certain work experience - and you're told right then to your'e face that it doesnt matter if you're black, white,blue, man, woman, shehe, abbo, brit or aussie, that you have the exact same chances of getting the job. But when it comes down to the actual matter peoples personal feelings, preferences and tastes are what decides who gets the job, nothing to do with the actual facts which you stated that you go after. The entire world runs off this bullshit notion - say one thing do another. Us consumers are not retards, you rubbing "this is what we realy do" when we know you do differently when push comes to shove - thinking us idiots that will believe it infuriates us more. Cut the crap - you're digging yourselves a deeper hole.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 20	Posted - 2011.09.29 22:59:00 - [227] - Quote Dunbar Hulan wrote: Storm in a tea cup. Relatively speaking, maybe so--I mean, they all do it, and we all know it, and we all know why they continue to get away with it--but this is just another symptom, not the disease. And if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor, the Pandora's Box of the actual disease has been wide-freakin-open for a long, long, time. And now, I'll play the Devil's advocate for a bit: I think one potential problem here is, that the EULA--as far as I know/recall--doesn't explicitly state: 1) What constitutes knowledge and/or approval of botting/other cheats 2) If, and if so, then how that constitutes being an "accessory before and/or after the fact" 3) What the penalties for same should be, or if there even should be penalties for it? regarding these, how do you prove this? In that sense, there should also be an explicit section in the EULA defining how Alliances/corps can, and why they must, "police themselves" strictly, with harsh penalties for non-compliance. But again, how to explicitly prove this? This is absolutely critical in the case of (2), especially. TL/DR: We do need explicit rules defining the role of non-botters in an organisation that is known/can be proven to be botting, and what, if any, penalties should be applied to them for not reporting them. But: I don't know if this is realistically possible, to be quite honest, given that evidence of botting is fundamentally circumstantial in nature, and that one "tacitly approving" of same is a purely subjective perception on the part of another--hello, potential for gross abuse, here??
Kengutsi Akira GloboTech Industries 14	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:00:00 - [228] - Quote Youd think being a CSM, endorsing not reporting ppl that are obviously botting would... matter cause you know... the CSM... matters oh yeah...
Simetraz State War Academy Caldari State 69	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:00:00 - [229] - Quote The Apostle wrote: ....... You need to let this go. This topic would have gone alot farther and been alot more productive if you would have not pointed fingers. Even your title is set up to inflame, you could have said 0.0 Alliance "legalising" Botting!! Nobody is argueing that what was done was questionable. But that is CCP's call on what to do about it and if it is bannable. You need to report it and move on. Capitals (Balancing and Roles)
Zirse Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:05:00 - [230] - Quote Do people seriously expect CCP to act on a leaked post from a private forum? tl;dr Goons exploit grey areas of EULA, more news to follow at 11. Now please let this pants-on-head retardation die already.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 20	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:06:00 - [231] - Quote SmashTech wrote: I could've guessed from the title that this was going to be a BoB-fest but jeeze oh man this exceeded all my expectations. I mean seriously: Goons "legalising" botting!! You sorry pubbie. Are you just trolling, or are you truly this dense and myopic?
Kengutsi Akira GloboTech Industries 14	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:08:00 - [232] - Quote How did this thread make it this far in the first place? I could be wrong but calling out a corp on the forums usually gets threads locked
SmashTech Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:10:00 - [233] - Quote Tarryn Nightstorm wrote: Are you just trolling, or are you truly this dense and myopic? Take a guess, given the quality of this thread.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 20	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:12:00 - [234] - Quote Mara Tessidar wrote: Post when you have a picture and aren't in the starter NPC corporation. Post with your main, Mittens.
SmashTech Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:13:00 - [235] - Quote Don't feed Mara's ego by comparing him to Our Dear Leader
Richard Hammond II Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:14:00 - [236] - Quote SmashTech wrote: Tarryn Nightstorm wrote: Are you just trolling, or are you truly this dense and myopic? Take a guess, given the quality of this thread. Im guessing trolling, cause thats all Goons ever do They dont seem to get snipped for doing it either. I wanna be a Goon so I can do whatever I want on the forums an not get moderated too! They hired actual clothing designers for WiS clothes "no wonder the monocle cost $80, they had to pay royalties" Screw "FiS" its called EVE CCP
SmashTech Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:16:00 - [237] - Quote That's not true, they censored one of our favorite peoples' names from the forums and permabanned him. Because that was a totally effective method of damage control. Really, it was. Mad props to whoever came up with that idea.
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative 7	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:18:00 - [238] - Quote Vile rat wrote: Consider this an official GSF response to this garbage thread. We do not condone botting. We think it is destructive to the game. We tell people not to bot and strongly discourage it because it's stupid and easily caught, not to mention it cheapens the effort of players who play the game the way it was meant to be. We are also not CCP's policemen. It is not our job to police botting or EULA breaking activities in the game, this is CCP's job. CCP Sreegs is doing a wonderful job policing this and we support his actions. Asking a playerbase to police EULA infractions is dumb and it is not our place. There is a report bot mechanism, we encourage people to use it. And this is exactly why null-sec is botting heaven compared to hi-sec.
Gaia Ma'chello V.I.C.E. 1	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:19:00 - [239] - Quote Vile rat wrote: Consider this an official GSF response to this garbage thread. We do not condone botting. We think it is destructive to the game. We tell people not to bot and strongly discourage it because it's stupid and easily caught, not to mention it cheapens the effort of players who play the game the way it was meant to be. We are also not CCP's policemen. It is not our job to police botting or EULA breaking activities in the game, this is CCP's job. CCP Sreegs is doing a wonderful job policing this and we support his actions. Asking a playerbase to police EULA infractions is dumb and it is not our place. There is a report bot mechanism, we encourage people to use it. People who do bad things have been known to lie on internet forums.
Brooson GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1	Posted - 2011.09.29 23:21:00 - [240] - Quote Goonswarm is actually a giant alliance run completely by bots all controlled by Mittani.

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