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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
771
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Posted - 2012.10.02 21:39:00 -
[211] - Quote
Spirocles wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:honestly, Pipa, I'm really disappointed with you taking a stand against a shift to player-enforced consequences rather than yet another dreary CONCORD boost. Especially one that promotes the holy grails of solo PvP and hi-sec PvP. Is non consensual PvP only desirable when it's against players in defenceless non combat ships or something? You're sounding like the stereotype "gankbear" in the badposts about piracy and ganking. Stop feeding those guys lines for the love of God. What's wrong with your targets being able to know they're being hunted, and be able to fight back? Suicide Gank Victims can do both. Scouts/Dscan, and Guards work wonders to foil most suicide gank. Blind Tradeable killright targets can't find out who's gunning from them and can't be effectively helped. I think both of you have valid points. Pipa, if there were a function where you could pay X amount of ISK to Concord, an agent at multiple stations, a certain corp, to find out who had what bounties on you, and who the owner of your killrights were, would that not satisfy the "unknown hunter" aspect of your argument? It would be a way for you to find out all of the relevant information that you're concerned with, yet still give the BH style of gameplay to those that chose that path. Not only that, it would be another ISK sink as well. Similar to the system SWG had for BH'ing. I thought that was a good system and wish it would be implemented similarly elsewhere.
The first victim can't pay concord to know when, where and by who is going to be gank, so why should the ganker (being THE CRIMINAL) get help from the police to ascape the consequence of his crime? brb |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
339
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Posted - 2012.10.03 01:35:00 -
[212] - Quote
Reaper gI wrote:(I was at the London meet)
[...]
Similarly a criminal could buy [kill rights] off their victim, so they didnt have to wait out the kill right (or lose a ship). This is one of my favourite parts by the way |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
111
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Posted - 2012.10.03 05:34:00 -
[213] - Quote
It would be my guess because of the way kill rights work right now in code that the transfer and notification of the transfer of those kill rights would be easy to code into the game. Most likely scenario. Or some form of notification maybe a bit more involved. CCP could do a lot with this a mini game almost if they wanted.
But to add in a bit to allow the ganker to shoot back first without a concord action would not code well as you currently can not do that to a kill right holder. So that is asking for the moon I believe. I mean you can and always should ask for the moon then be happy with what you get, which if anything, it will be some form of the former in my opinion.
Still even the knowing at least of who is gunning for you is something and as soon as he fires you can then fire back. So it is not surprise in your face. Or it would be on the same level as the original gank was. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4784
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Posted - 2012.10.03 06:47:00 -
[214] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button.
My new sig! GÖÑ
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4784
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Posted - 2012.10.03 06:56:00 -
[215] - Quote
Seriously, when it gets Matrix to say something like that, you know that CCP are doing the right thing with this new bounty system. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1265
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Posted - 2012.10.03 07:31:00 -
[216] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button. My new sig! GÖÑ That's an old-time quote.
And I think it's non-consensual, rather than unconsensual.
Caldari Militia |
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
48
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Posted - 2012.10.03 07:49:00 -
[217] - Quote
Why not make it so noone running and alt character or another account owned by the same person can collect on the bounty? I'm sure its possible unless they have completely different IP addresses/email accounts and credit cards. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4784
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Posted - 2012.10.03 07:49:00 -
[218] - Quote
I know it is. It's the fact that Matrix Skye said it that's remarkable. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1265
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 07:50:00 -
[219] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:Why not make it so noone running and alt character or another account owned by the same person can collect on the bounty? I'm sure its possible unless they have completely different IP addresses/email accounts and credit cards. Please catch up. The bounty system is changing. Using alts will become moot, because the payouts will not equal the ship that was lost.
Caldari Militia |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4784
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 08:33:00 -
[220] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:Why not make it so noone running and alt character or another account owned by the same person can collect on the bounty? I'm sure its possible unless they have completely different IP addresses/email accounts and credit cards.
Payout per kill is going to be capped at 20-25% of the hull cost. If you're willing to spend 1.25 bill on ships to collect a 250M bounty, then go to it and good luck. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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Pipa Porto
1109
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Posted - 2012.10.03 09:59:00 -
[221] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Except no. What does a killright hunter fly? Anything. What's their name? Anything. There's nothing to d-scan for. There's nobody to look for in local. There's nothing to stay alert for. The killright hunter has a game mechanically enforced element of surprise that the target cannot overcome. Except yes. Watch out for HACs, HICs, fast ships, ships normally flown by PVPers. You yourself should fly in fast ships. Being this is a PVP game be ready to PVP at a moment's notice. Don't fly ships you can't afford to lose. Learn who the bounty hunters are and add them to your contacts list. Fly with friends. The sooner you realize hi sec isn't safe the better. Also, stay aligned. Stay away from congested systems. Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button.
There's the rub. In HS, unconsensual, surprise PvP costs the attacker their ship. Why should the killright hunter get to keep theirs? Why shouldn't the defender be able to fight back effectively? A suicide gank victim's friends can effectively fight a suicide gank. A killright defender's friends can't. A suicide gank victim can tell at a glance that someone's hunting them (a half dozen destroyers isn't exactly subtle). A killright defender can't (any ship). A suicide ganker has to deal with the fitting constraint of losing their ship. A killright purchaser has no such constraint.
In other words, a potential suicide gank victim has plenty of effective ways to avoid or thwart the suicide gank. Someone with a blind transferred killright against them does not.
Again (for the fifth time), I'm not against transferable killrights. I'm against the free, risk free HS ganks, with no effective retaliation possible, that blind transferrable killright represent.
Quote:Quote:A Gank victim simply needs to set up a short range d-scan and look out for a half dozen destroyers or a couple tier 3s popping up on it. Same for the killrights victim. Be on the lookout for well-known and established bounty hunters. And remember that you are not meant to be 100% safe, even in hi sec. Most importantly, remember that you choose to generate a killright. You choose to undock. You choose to fly to congested systems where you may be ambushed. You choose what ships to fly. Don't like the heat, then stay out of the kitchen... Or docked. And stop generating killrights if you don't like the consequences.
Where did I suggest that HS should be safe? What distinguishes a person with a killright in local the way low sec status distinguishes successful suicide gankers?
There's no need for the system to be congested to be ambushed with blind transferable killrights, as there is no way to tell who owns your killright.
Again, I'm happy to have people who have killrights against me come at me. I'm asking why the people buying the killrights should have the benefit of surprise and first strike mechanically guaranteed and why they should have the benefit of overwhelming firepower and the knowledge that they're not walking into a trap.
Another thing to note is that buying a killright would give that purchaser an advantage in prosecuting that killright over the original owner. How does that make sense? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
1109
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Posted - 2012.10.03 10:05:00 -
[222] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:In other words, you're complaining that criminals will be in the exact same situation as suicide gank victims, never knowing who's going to attack them or when?
I'm trying to think of a reason not to say "Well suck it up then", but I can't.
Except that Suicide Gankers lose their ships. They get to say "Surprise" but it costs them their ship. People exercising kill rights do not lose anything. Don't gank = no consequence (aka KIllright sold to merc) Gank = consequence - aka expect someone to have as much fun as you did previously, the difference being the ganker is a CRIMINAL and the guy who bought that kill right represents JUSTICE. Eve is harsh, eve is not easy for any one and should be harder in high sec for players choosing the criminal path in high sec. If you want to kill ships/pods with total impugnity just move to null or low sec. If you stay in high sec and choose to be a criminal you must accept the consequences of your choice.
Since you insist on bringing up morality, why should an uninvolved third party get to shoot anyone in HS without consequence?
By the way, I do live in Lowsec. Transferable killrights (blind and broken or otherwise) will not affect me. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
1109
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 10:06:00 -
[223] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:The first victim can't pay concord to know when, where and by who is going to be gank, so why should the ganker (being THE CRIMINAL) get help from the police to ascape the consequence of his crime?
Suicide Gank victims can just hit D-Scan to get that information instead. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4784
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 10:47:00 -
[224] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Except no. What does a killright hunter fly? Anything. What's their name? Anything. There's nothing to d-scan for. There's nobody to look for in local. There's nothing to stay alert for. The killright hunter has a game mechanically enforced element of surprise that the target cannot overcome. Except yes. Watch out for HACs, HICs, fast ships, ships normally flown by PVPers. You yourself should fly in fast ships. Being this is a PVP game be ready to PVP at a moment's notice. Don't fly ships you can't afford to lose. Learn who the bounty hunters are and add them to your contacts list. Fly with friends. The sooner you realize hi sec isn't safe the better. Also, stay aligned. Stay away from congested systems. Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button. There's the rub. In HS, unconsensual, surprise PvP costs the attacker their ship.
It's not a surprise. Your character sheet lists active killrights against you.
In hi-sec you have to pay in order to aggress, but you don't necessarily have to pay with your ship.
Suicide gankers do pay with their ship.
War Targets pay with their wardec fees.
Killright owners pay with the ship they lost that granted them the killright.
Bounty hunters will pay for the killright they purchase from the original killright owner.
hth
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Pipa Porto
1109
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:19:00 -
[225] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:It's not a surprise. Your character sheet lists active killrights against you.
And the thing people have been proposing is that people whose killrights get purchased don't get informed.
You might try reading the bit that I've posted some 5 times in this thread. I'll be excited about killrights if the target gets notified and gets equivalent combat rights against the purchaser (like a one-man-wardec). Killright purchasers still have the major advantage that they can team up. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Spirocles
Metro Mega-Miners
0
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Posted - 2012.10.03 13:09:00 -
[226] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:It's not a surprise. Your character sheet lists active killrights against you. And the thing people have been proposing is that people whose killrights get purchased don't get informed. You might try reading the bit that I've posted some 5 times in this thread. I'll be excited about killrights if the target gets notified and gets equivalent combat rights against the purchaser (like a one-man-wardec). Killright purchasers still have the major advantage that they can team up.
I agree Pipa, there should be SOME mechanic in place for a criminal (who know's he/she is a criminal btw) to find out who owns the killrights to pewpew him/her wherever they want. I do think everyone is in agreement that the transferring of killrights can be a good thing. I merely suggest CCP implement it in such a way as to cost money to find out, and it's something that has to be initiated by the target. Not something automatically popping up on their screen saying "Pilot X bought killrights from Pilot Y". |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
875
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Posted - 2012.10.03 13:30:00 -
[227] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:In Highsec, you're talking about suicide ganking It's safe to say this is a major assumption at this point.
The word "safe" is a four-letter word in EVE. Even in English.
"safe" is not a word within our pixellated universe. The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Wilhelm Riley
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:31:00 -
[228] - Quote
Spirocles wrote:
I agree Pipa, there should be SOME mechanic in place for a criminal (who know's he/she is a criminal btw) to find out who owns the killrights to pewpew him/her wherever they want. I do think everyone is in agreement that the transferring of killrights can be a good thing. I merely suggest CCP implement it in such a way as to cost money to find out, and it's something that has to be initiated by the target. Not something automatically popping up on their screen saying "Pilot X bought killrights from Pilot Y".
Maybe the information could come from an agent that you need to pay, like how locator agents work? |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
95
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Posted - 2012.10.03 13:39:00 -
[229] - Quote
Wilhelm Riley wrote:Spirocles wrote:
I agree Pipa, there should be SOME mechanic in place for a criminal (who know's he/she is a criminal btw) to find out who owns the killrights to pewpew him/her wherever they want. I do think everyone is in agreement that the transferring of killrights can be a good thing. I merely suggest CCP implement it in such a way as to cost money to find out, and it's something that has to be initiated by the target. Not something automatically popping up on their screen saying "Pilot X bought killrights from Pilot Y".
Maybe the information could come from an agent that you need to pay, like how locator agents work?
Maybe just a button on the "can be killed by" tab that will cost a certain amount of isk, and will update with any people who can kill you who you don't know about. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4784
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:40:00 -
[230] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:It's not a surprise. Your character sheet lists active killrights against you. And the thing people have been proposing is that people whose killrights get purchased don't get informed. You might try reading the bit that I've posted some 5 times in this thread. I'll be excited about killrights if the target gets notified and gets equivalent combat rights against the purchaser (like a one-man-wardec).
You've posted it 5 times and IMO it's still a false equivalence. The bounty target still has more information and a reduced threat than the prospective gank victim who sold his killright, and no one (certainly not you) is advocating giving them any more. I fail to see why the target of revenge should be allowed more information than the target of the original crime, the more so since they voluntarily placed themself in the situation to begin with.
I think at this stage we'll just have to agree to disagree, since repeating the same debate points at each other must be making some tedious reading by now.
Pipa Porto wrote:Killright purchasers still have the major advantage that they can team up.
I'm sorry, are you trying to imply that gankers and pirates can't or don't team up on their victims? If it's legitimate for 15 guys in artynados to blap a freighter (and I believe it is, and I'm pretty sure you do too) then why isn't it OK for several different bounty hunters to each purchase a killright on the same guy and hunt him down together?
In any case, this can only happen if a perp has multiple killrights open against him and his "crimes" are so egregious and the bounty on him so high that it becomes worthwhile to do so. In which case, yeah... so?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
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Pipa Porto
1115
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Posted - 2012.10.03 14:09:00 -
[231] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:You've posted it 5 times and IMO it's still a false equivalence. The bounty target still has more information and a reduced threat than the prospective gank victim who sold his killright, and no one (certainly not you) is advocating giving them any more. I fail to see why the target of revenge should be allowed more information than the target of the original crime, the more so since they voluntarily placed themself in the situation to begin with.
In what way does the blind killright target have more information on who's gunning for them than the gank victim? The gank victim can d-scan to discover an inbound gank fleet. A killright target can d-scan for... what? Any Ship? That's useful. A gank victim can be wary of pilots with negative sec statuses (not foolproof, but still effective). A killright target can watch out for... whom? Any Character? That's useful.
Everyone's volunteered to be the potential target of a surprise attack any time they undock in HS. The understanding, however, is that that surprise will cost the attacker their ship.
Why should killright buyers get a risk free, cost free, consequence free gank?
Quote:Pipa Porto wrote:Killright purchasers still have the major advantage that they can team up. I'm sorry, are you trying to imply that gankers and pirates can't or don't team up on their victims? If it's legitimate for 15 guys in artynados to blap a freighter (and I believe it is, and I'm pretty sure you do too) then why isn't it OK for several different bounty hunters to each purchase a killright on the same guy and hunt him down together? In any case, this can only happen if a perp has multiple killrights open against him and his "crimes" are so egregious and the bounty on him so high that it becomes worthwhile to do so. In which case, yeah... so?
Sounds like you really didn't read.
I'm saying that if purchased killrights worked both ways (like 1 on 1 wardecs[no defense allies, ofc]), 5 guys could buy killrights against one and work together to kill him, while the target can't get meaningful help from his allies. That's the advantage killright purchasers would have over their targets. I'm just saying why disallow the hunted from hunting the hunter? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
EglantinFinfleur
Pointy Teeth Society Ishukone Drug and Research Utilization Group
6
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Posted - 2012.10.03 14:39:00 -
[232] - Quote
I've been waiting nine years for some valid bounty hunting mechanic, it must really be 2012 the end of the world if it's going to be implemented, and we're going to have tools to effectively uphold common decency in New Eden. Therefore, LOL at all this abloobloo.
Just pretend Empire Space is tired of subsidizing costly CONCORD over-the-top interventions, and wants to put policing space lanes into the hands of pod pilots. It's a game, play pretend!
Also, don't fly what you can't afford to lose. At the moment you undock, be prepared to lose your ship. Check local, stay aligned, hit d-scan frequently and set it on a short radius so you can warp out when you see a gang inbound. EvE is harsh and cruel, maybe it's not the game for you? But anyway, it's only a game, so don't get mad!
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
416
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Posted - 2012.10.03 14:41:00 -
[233] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Seriously, when it gets Matrix to say something like that, you know that CCP are doing the right thing with this new bounty system. I'd love to try out the bounty hunter profession. I can say it would definitely motiviate me to PVP :P.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4784
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Posted - 2012.10.03 14:42:00 -
[234] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:You've posted it 5 times and IMO it's still a false equivalence. The bounty target still has more information and a reduced threat than the prospective gank victim who sold his killright, and no one (certainly not you) is advocating giving them any more. I fail to see why the target of revenge should be allowed more information than the target of the original crime, the more so since they voluntarily placed themself in the situation to begin with. In what way does the blind killright target have more information on who's gunning for them than the gank victim? The gank victim can d-scan to discover an inbound gank fleet. A killright target can d-scan for... what? Any Ship? That's useful. A gank victim can be wary of pilots with negative sec statuses (not foolproof, but still effective). A killright target can watch out for... whom? Any Character? That's useful. Everyone's volunteered to be the potential target of a surprise attack any time they undock in HS. The understanding, however, is that that surprise will cost the attacker their ship. Why should killright buyers get a risk free, cost free, consequence free gank? Quote:Pipa Porto wrote:Killright purchasers still have the major advantage that they can team up. I'm sorry, are you trying to imply that gankers and pirates can't or don't team up on their victims? If it's legitimate for 15 guys in artynados to blap a freighter (and I believe it is, and I'm pretty sure you do too) then why isn't it OK for several different bounty hunters to each purchase a killright on the same guy and hunt him down together? In any case, this can only happen if a perp has multiple killrights open against him and his "crimes" are so egregious and the bounty on him so high that it becomes worthwhile to do so. In which case, yeah... so? Sounds like you really didn't read. I'm saying that if purchased killrights worked both ways (like 1 on 1 wardecs[no defense allies, ofc]), 5 guys could buy killrights against one and work together to kill him, while the target can't get meaningful help from his allies. That's the advantage killright purchasers would have over their targets. I'm just saying why disallow the hunted from hunting the hunter?
At this stage the only advice I can give is that if you're such a bad PvPer that hunting you is "risk free", then you should perhaps try another profession. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1270
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:46:00 -
[235] - Quote
Could Pipa Porto now shut the hell up? We get it. You've posted it nearly a hundred times. New Eden is a big scary place for the professional highsec ganker when it is the ganker who may be ganked. Caldari Militia |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
416
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Posted - 2012.10.03 14:50:00 -
[236] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:It's not a surprise. Your character sheet lists active killrights against you. And the thing people have been proposing is that people whose killrights get purchased don't get informed. You might try reading the bit that I've posted some 5 times in this thread. I'll be excited about killrights if the target gets notified and gets equivalent combat rights against the purchaser (like a one-man-wardec). Killright purchasers still have the major advantage that they can team up. Ok then. Let's make it so that before a suicide gank happens the ganker shall register his target's name and said target is automatically informed he is being hunted specifically by this ganker individual . Now both parties know exactly who's hunting them. What? Don't like it?
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Pipa Porto
1115
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Posted - 2012.10.03 14:53:00 -
[237] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:At this stage the only advice I can give is that if you're such a bad PvPer that hunting you is "risk free", then you should perhaps try another profession.
Hunting someone who cannot know you're coming for them, who cannot shoot first, and whose friends cannot effectively shoot at all, when you are not constrained by a guaranteed ship loss, is risk free, no matter who your target is or how skilled they are. I mean seriously, if you can't win and profit with those conditions against anyone, you're pretty pathetic.
Feel free to hunt me in LS. I live out around Okagaiken. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
1115
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:55:00 -
[238] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Ok then. Let's make it so that before a suicide gank happens the ganker shall register his target's name and said target is automatically informed he is being hunted specifically by this ganker individual . Now both parties know exactly who's hunting them. What? Don't like it?
You already can tell when someone's coming for you in a suicide gank. A half dozen destroyers showing up on d-scan isn't particularly subtle. What can a killright target d-scan for? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
1115
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:57:00 -
[239] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Could Pipa Porto now shut the hell up? We get it. You've posted it nearly a hundred times. New Eden is a big scary place for the professional highsec ganker when it is the ganker who may be ganked.
Where have I ever asked for Suicide Ganking to be eliminated?
In HS, the element of surprise costs you your ship or some effort. That's how it works. You're asking for it for free and with no effort invested. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1271
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:58:00 -
[240] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:.... and with no effort invested. It is that easy to kill you?
Caldari Militia |
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