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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 57 post(s) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2517
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Posted - 2012.10.10 14:00:00 -
[151] - Quote
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:From walking around a station (which you failed to accomplish) to this is one of the reasons why it will not work.
Great vision of ideas, zero vision of implementation.
There are so many reasons why this will not work they don't really seem worth mentioning.
But urm, good luck anyway I guess.
I am a little envious of the whole development thing youve got going on at CCP though, it must be nice to be able to just prototype things all the time.
Well you see, this is how things work in real companies... as opposed to the theoretical imaginings of armchair CEO's. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
39
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Posted - 2012.10.10 14:04:00 -
[152] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Well you see, this is how things work in real companies... as opposed to the theoretical imaginings of armchair CEO's.
Haha is that right? You think many companies spend resources like this on prototype software? The traditional cycle is Concept, greenlight development but TA started development before greenlighting the project, thats risky. Like I said though must be nice to have the resources available to do that. |
Brooks Puuntai
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
863
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 14:10:00 -
[153] - Quote
Omg its t0fi. I was wondering where you were hiding. Please take back over lead designer, probably a demotion but still.
No offense Soundwave. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2517
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 14:15:00 -
[154] - Quote
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:Unit XS365BT wrote:"This won't work but i'm not going to give any valid reasons why it won't... waah waah QQ QQ QQ' Do I really need to state the reasons why it wont work? No I don't, but it doesnt matter, I'm sure TA have done reels of concept work, anybody can see the reasons why it wont work and I hope TA can prove me and them wrong, but I don't see it. Ranger 1 wrote:Well you see, this is how things work in real companies... as opposed to the theoretical imaginings of armchair CEO's. Haha is that right? You think many companies spend resources like this on prototype software? The traditional cycle is Concept, greenlight then development, but TA started development before greenlighting the project, thats risky. Like I said though must be nice to have the resources available to do that. As far as I'm concerned they can work on these little ideas as long as they want, I don't expect it will make it into the EVE we know so I'll just forget all about it, just like WIS. CCP are unrivaled at ideas and future visions but the problem with this is it requires significant foresight into the future, foresight CCP don't seem to have, again I hope to be proven wrong though. We can only wait and see.
So.... you missed the whole "developing the concept" part of this project as it was being discussed on the forums and internally for several months I see.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 14:27:00 -
[155] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:So.... you missed the whole "developing the concept" part of this project as it was being discussed on the forums and internally for several months I see. Then once the concept was given the go ahead the (very quick to develop and comparatively inexpensive) prototype was developed.
... and yes, if you are going to make bold statements about how this concept won't work you need to back it up... preferably with fact rather than opinion.
According to
This thread
Development started prior to the greenlight.
Youtube video showing development
I don't think this is concept, this is development work. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
325
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 14:40:00 -
[156] - Quote
sounds like fun. Kinda like in Promeutheus. Too bad it will be years before it comes out but maybe Dust will bring in a ton of money and they can use that to pay for it Selective Pressure [FOVRA] is now recruiting! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1797934#post1797934 |
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CCP Bayesian
467
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Posted - 2012.10.10 14:43:00 -
[157] - Quote
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:So.... you missed the whole "developing the concept" part of this project as it was being discussed on the forums and internally for several months I see. Then once the concept was given the go ahead the (very quick to develop and comparatively inexpensive) prototype was developed.
... and yes, if you are going to make bold statements about how this concept won't work you need to back it up... preferably with fact rather than opinion. According to This threadDevelopment started prior to the greenlight. Youtube video showing developmentI don't think this is concept, this is development work.
It's a bit of a gray line, where does the concept end and the gameplay start? Just thinking about ideas isn't necessarily going to get good results. Making a simple version you can play does. Essentially what we've done is a period a taking a concept and trying to make some fun gameplay with it. Ideas are a dime a dozen, what matters is execution and this is a good way to short circuit part of the execution so that you haven't got months into development only to realise there isn't a good game forthcoming. Rather fail early and often without spending too much in order to get to an awesome idea than spend years making something with no clear idea of what the end result is going to be. I've been there and got that t-shirt at other companies, so I'm not anxious to repeat the experience. EVE Software Engineer Team Avatar |
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Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
61
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 14:46:00 -
[158] - Quote
It's missing a Space Compass. But almost!
In all seriousness, I do not know what CCP has planned for any sort of combat in the EVA exploration of Sleeper structures, but it would be unrealistic if we couldn't arm ourselves. |
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
61
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 14:49:00 -
[159] - Quote
Kan'loch Lacoud wrote:May have been asked before, but what happens to your ship when you are doing EVA, do you 'dock' in the structure or is it left there in space for anyone to board/steal?
As I recall (Maybe from Ten Ton Hammer interview?) it will be left in space for anyone to board or destroy, meaning you can be stranded.
Were I a capsuleer I'd disconnect my pod and try to fit it in the structure somehow...getting stuck in J125125 without a ship would suck! At least with a pod you'd be able to leave the structure and use bookmarks to get back to kspace. |
Dersen Lowery
Knavery Inc. StructureDamage
115
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 14:50:00 -
[160] - Quote
While we're all revolutionizing CCP's development practices from the comfort of our armchairs, I note that TA's work on this project is postponed for a while, during which time the company seems to be focusing hard on things like customizable NPC AI, new ships, further work on fitting and inventory code, and other baseline work on the game that, besides being urgent and justified on their own merits, could be vital to making this development work well. I'm sure that nobody at CCP wants to build major new content on rickety old systems.
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
816
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Posted - 2012.10.10 14:59:00 -
[161] - Quote
Nope!
If I want to play a avatar based MMO, there is WoW (and I can play as a panda!) and if I want the more sci-fi direction, I have SWTOR and STO to choose from.
The only reason Team Avatar should even exist is to convince the rest of CCP that Dust 514 on a console being phased out is a ******* dumb idea. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1251
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:02:00 -
[162] - Quote
Alpheias wrote: The only reason Team Avatar should even exist is to convince the rest of CCP that Dust 514 on a console being phased out is a ******* dumb idea.
Because no way will a game built to be added on to perpetually like EvE will ever be updated to ps4. |
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:02:00 -
[163] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:It's a bit of a gray line, where does the concept end and the gameplay start? Just thinking about ideas isn't necessarily going to get good results. Making a simple version you can play does. Essentially what we've done is a period a taking a concept and trying to make some fun gameplay with it. Ideas are a dime a dozen, what matters is execution and this is a good way to short circuit part of the execution so that you haven't got months into development only to realise there isn't a good game forthcoming. Rather fail early and often without spending too much in order to get to an awesome idea than spend years making something with no clear idea of what the end result is going to be. I've been there and got that t-shirt at other companies, so I'm not anxious to repeat the experience.
Concept ends when you have a roadmap from start to finish of development, when you have discussed and brainstormed every possible outcome to every possible situation, when you have artistic representational drawings of the environment, characters effects, lighting, and miscellaneous models, You should have enough concept material that when you give it to another person not involved in the concept they can tell you exactly what is going to become of it, after many hours of boring boardroom meetings, the concept is a foundation, and with an unfinished foundation even if you do manage to build it, it will fall down around you.
CCP Bayesian wrote:So that you haven't got months into development only to realise there isn't a good game forthcoming
This is obviously a lesson you learnt from Incarna, but isn't this the point of concept? Surely you know what the end goal is, how can you not, you can't just make things and hope they turn into something fun.
Playing what you have is mostly irrelevant because you do it in isolated environments that can be predicted, the experience will NOT be the same when released to the general EVE population, whats fun in the office is not neccesarily fun for the people who haven't worked on it.
In my opinion if you cannot gaurantee it's going to be fun or worthwhile for the players, then your not ready to start development.
Regardless I don't know how much work you have done on this, concept or otherwise, there is no way for me to know (unless I secretely work for CCP) but if you do have a strong foundation, concept art and clear roadmaps, maybe you should release some of that instead of just creating a forum post trying to hype things up. talk is cheap as they say, typing cheaper. |
Alice Saki
9603
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:03:00 -
[164] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Nope!
If I want to play a avatar based MMO, there is WoW (and I can play as a panda!) and if I want the more sci-fi direction, I have SWTOR and STO to choose from.
The only reason Team Avatar should even exist is to convince the rest of CCP that Dust 514 on a console being phased out is a ******* dumb idea.
The hate is strong in this one. Scottish Interweb Spaceshippy Person, Very Easily Confused. I like to show my Love by Smashing people in the face with a big Hammer.
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
816
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:10:00 -
[165] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Alpheias wrote: The only reason Team Avatar should even exist is to convince the rest of CCP that Dust 514 on a console being phased out is a ******* dumb idea.
Because no way will a game built to be added on to perpetually like EvE will ever be updated to ps4.
Is it even realistic to assume that CCP can expect to recover the development costs from this generation and the next? Unless Dust 514 is a smashing success and I have my doubts about that, I don't think CCP 514 will be on the PS4 or whatever unless Sony goes in and fully funds it at that point.
Alice Saki wrote:Alpheias wrote:Nope!
If I want to play a avatar based MMO, there is WoW (and I can play as a panda!) and if I want the more sci-fi direction, I have SWTOR and STO to choose from.
The only reason Team Avatar should even exist is to convince the rest of CCP that Dust 514 on a console being phased out is a ******* dumb idea. The hate is strong in this one.
Thanks. I do my best to be modest about it too. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Dersen Lowery
Knavery Inc. StructureDamage
115
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:12:00 -
[166] - Quote
Hiro Ceffoe wrote:Playing what you have is mostly irrelevant because you do it in isolated environments that can be predicted, the experience will NOT be the same when released to the general EVE population, whats fun in the office is not neccesarily fun for the people who haven't worked on it.
This is why every successful MMO has developed the game that the studio employees themselves want to play. It's how WoW started; it's how EVE started.
Considering that Team Avatar are prototyping the gameplay, and that's the important part, I don't know why you're so hung up on "foundations," whatever those are (EVE?) and concept art. CCP is not lacking for concept art for sleeper interiors and capsuleers out of pod. You can find it all over the place. There's even a video of guys in suits docking a ship and exploring a sleeper ruin.
You know a game will be fun when it's still colored blocks. In fact, there are several well-regarded indie games out now that are nothing but gameplay with colored blocks. No amount of lore and art can save a game if it doesn't have that core playability. See SW:TOR. And if you design for some imagined audience, and try to guess what they might like even if you don't like it... well, good luck. |
Alice Saki
9605
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:14:00 -
[167] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Alpheias wrote: The only reason Team Avatar should even exist is to convince the rest of CCP that Dust 514 on a console being phased out is a ******* dumb idea.
Because no way will a game built to be added on to perpetually like EvE will ever be updated to ps4. Is it even realistic to assume that CCP can expect to recover the development costs from this generation and the next? Unless Dust 514 is a smashing success and I have my doubts about that, I don't think CCP 514 will be on the PS4 or whatever unless Sony goes in and fully funds it at that point. Alice Saki wrote:Alpheias wrote:Nope!
If I want to play a avatar based MMO, there is WoW (and I can play as a panda!) and if I want the more sci-fi direction, I have SWTOR and STO to choose from.
The only reason Team Avatar should even exist is to convince the rest of CCP that Dust 514 on a console being phased out is a ******* dumb idea. The hate is strong in this one. Thanks. I do my best to be modest about it too.
I always go Darkside in Swtor as well :P Scottish Interweb Spaceshippy Person, Very Easily Confused. I like to show my Love by Smashing people in the face with a big Hammer.
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oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone Caldari State
707
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:37:00 -
[168] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Also, CCP, why do you develop prototypes of new features then pitch them to management? Management does not pay for them to be developed, we do. Pitch them to us, get our approval. Vincent, if you'll think back, Torfi and a few others did broach the idea of developing Avatar game play along this line and asked for feed back. Based on that generally positive feed back they proceded from there to put together a plan and a demo that they could pitch to the rest of the management team... which obviously have to give the final approval. Player input and feed back is extremely valuable, but you can't run a company by popular vote. It's nice in theory, but impractical in practice. To follow on from this its also about getting feedback in an appropriate venue. There were some fair concerns from some people in CCP that putting out what we developers wanted to would inevitably end up getting misconstrued. We're definitely hoping to get some good feedback at fanfest though and a more personal interaction will help that.
The feedback you get here is not good enough ? only the ones with the time and money to go to fanfest have good feedback?
You personally asked this community about ideas and feedback ,enough ideas and proposals came from the players who take the time to visit these forums only to get rewarded with silence and trolls. I know this was a management decision ,but still
Well then ,we have to be patient again , i am willing to AGAIN . I hope this time any videos about WIS shown on Fanfest will be on youtube
Ooh at least the word " Soon" is not used this time
Keep on prototyping and good luck If Dust has social areas ,then vanishing the blog is not an CCP decision ,but an all exclusive Sony decision |
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CCP Bayesian
469
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Posted - 2012.10.10 15:50:00 -
[169] - Quote
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:The feedback you get here is not good enough ? only the ones with the time and money to go to fanfest have good feedback?
No, the feedback here from what we've said and shown here has been excellent and helpful. I'm pretty sure there is a large group of people who could provide excellent feedback but fanfest is an opportunity for us to show things and get feedback face to face. If and when development actually goes forward I'd be pushing for lots of community involvement as early as possible. I don't see any other way of really developing a game feature in as complex a system as EVE Online where emergent behaviour and interesting social interactions are such a big part of the game. EVE Software Engineer Team Avatar |
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Hiram Alexander
Seraphim Securities
253
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 15:53:00 -
[170] - Quote
So is there anything you can tell us, in the meantime, about what the team plans to work on in the near future? - if progress on this is effectively shelved 'til resources are available. |
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CCP Prime
C C P C C P Alliance
18
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Posted - 2012.10.10 15:58:00 -
[171] - Quote
Hiram Alexander wrote:So is there anything you can tell us, in the meantime, about what the team plans to work on in the near future? - if progress on this is effectively shelved 'til resources are available.
We certainly are still prototyping, but now we're not dealing with organic material. |
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Hiram Alexander
Seraphim Securities
253
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Posted - 2012.10.10 16:01:00 -
[172] - Quote
CCP Prime wrote:Hiram Alexander wrote:So is there anything you can tell us, in the meantime, about what the team plans to work on in the near future? - if progress on this is effectively shelved 'til resources are available. We certainly are still prototyping, but now we're not dealing with organic material. Hmm... mysterious ;)
Any news on releasing previous (organic?) work, like racial blending? |
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone Caldari State
707
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 16:02:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:The feedback you get here is not good enough ? only the ones with the time and money to go to fanfest have good feedback? No, the feedback here from what we've said and shown here has been excellent and helpful. I'm pretty sure there is a large group of people who could provide excellent feedback but fanfest is an opportunity for us to show things and get feedback face to face. If and when development actually goes forward I'd be pushing for lots of community involvement as early as possible. I don't see any other way of really developing a game feature in as complex a system as EVE Online where emergent behaviour and interesting social interactions are such a big part of the game.
I am not gonna try to change the mind of CCP and you ,but this does not convince me. Like i said , i am willing to have the patience
But first starting a discussion on this forum and then move it on to fanfest doesn,t add up ,for me personally The only reason i see , a marketing trick for fanfest But ok ,its your and CCP,s call
But what about the CQ ,can we expect at least some changes there ? Like i said before those screens could use some usability And who knows even maybe something more then 1 room?
If Dust has social areas ,then vanishing the blog is not an CCP decision ,but an all exclusive Sony decision |
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
267
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 16:03:00 -
[174] - Quote
Any dev types care to respond to my concerns voiced here? What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Nyla Skin
Maximum fun chamber
88
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Posted - 2012.10.10 16:10:00 -
[175] - Quote
Well this looks remotely interesting. As in, Im all for extravehicular activities involving my avatar, but I'm skeptic as to when I'll get to see it. Looking forward to some extravehicular activity in 2021. |
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
125
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Posted - 2012.10.10 16:18:00 -
[176] - Quote
Gotta say, this sounds very interesting... |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
913
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 16:41:00 -
[177] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Any dev types care to respond to my concerns voiced here?
Yes, it will be years.
Probably at least 2 years before we see this.
2013 will be all about POS' and Ring mining, hopefully. Then you're going to have a null sec Sovereignty Fix, and then there is openings for Avatar Gameplay.
Meanwhile, Dust is getting along somewhere in between all of this.
Where I am. |
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone Caldari State
707
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 16:45:00 -
[178] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:Anabella Rella wrote:Any dev types care to respond to my concerns voiced here? Yes, it will be years. Probably at least 2 years before we see this. 2013 will be all about POS' and Ring mining, hopefully. Then you're going to have a null sec Sovereignty Fix, and then there is openings for Avatar Gameplay. Meanwhile, Dust is getting along somewhere in between all of this.
Dust is getting all the attention its needs right now ,not somewhere in between. If Dust has social areas ,then vanishing the blog is not an CCP decision ,but an all exclusive Sony decision |
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
61
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 20:22:00 -
[179] - Quote
I have to say I love the idea of being able to do EVAs. Be it in stations/ships (old/broken or operational), in space or even entering hostile structures.
If you do end up going the route proposed here, especially the resource gathering for implants (or whatever their use ends up being) please oh PLEASE make sure it isn't just repetitive. Missions are, as an example, quite repetitive. Include some sort of generated content, so it's not just a matter of learning the 3 or 4 existing layouts of a site to gather resource X, and after having done those it's just grinding. Surely creating content like this will be much more work intensive than creating any 'normal' mission, so it stands to assume there will unlikely be as many as there are missions (which already is too few).
Build modules that have many optional connections, generate levels (or whatever you want to call it) dynamically. Floating around in space surely gives much more options in that regard than a closed off station or ship, where walls and corridors are needed. I imagine something where you are in your space suit, floating through wreckage field. You might have to float to the remnants of the engine room to restore enough power to make one of the miraculously intact tools operational. Using that could allow you to pry open a container containing something of value or similar. The positions and models of all that can quite easily be generated, having a few options each. This would allow for great diversity in objectives, layouts and rewards with relative ease as only components need to be made, not complete arrangements/settings. |
Flamespar
Woof Club
474
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 22:26:00 -
[180] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:The feedback you get here is not good enough ? only the ones with the time and money to go to fanfest have good feedback? No, the feedback here from what we've said and shown here has been excellent and helpful. I'm pretty sure there is a large group of people who could provide excellent feedback but fanfest is an opportunity for us to show things and get feedback face to face. If and when development actually goes forward I'd be pushing for lots of community involvement as early as possible. I don't see any other way of really developing a game feature in as complex a system as EVE Online where emergent behaviour and interesting social interactions are such a big part of the game.
When you say community involvement from an early stage, what do you mean? I can post on a forum, therefore I represent everyone. |
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