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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
932
   |
Posted - 2012.10.18 19:17:00 -
[211] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
They did nothing to protect themselves.
No time to. The mouse cannot avoid the owl. |
Lord Zim
1795
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:00:00 -
[212] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:baltec1 wrote:
They did nothing to protect themselves.
No time to. The mouse cannot avoid the owl. edit: By your reasoning, the residents of Hiroshima in August 1945 were all dumb for not 'protecting themselves'.
I hear putting tanking mods on hulks were a very hard task back then.
Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10001
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:09:00 -
[213] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:I hear putting tanking mods on hulks were a very hard task back then. To be fair, neither existed, so I would have been really surprised if it weren't awfully difficult.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1376
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:12:00 -
[214] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:baltec1 wrote:They did nothing to protect themselves. Fitting some tank would help them. Two Catalysts won't gank a tanked Mack.
That's why miners are dumb. They refuse to fit for anything but yield, even when CCP gave them added tools to be less gankable.
Caldari Militia |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
934
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:39:00 -
[215] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:baltec1 wrote:They did nothing to protect themselves. Fitting some tank would help them. Two Catalysts won't gank a tanked Mack. That's why miners are dumb. They refuse to fit for anything but yield, even when CCP gave them added tools to be less gankable.
When gankers are out 'to get you', they will, and nothing to do about it.
Like I said the other day in a thread.......if the miner chooses not to tank and goes for yield, that is the RISK factor in risk vs reward. But I guess you think that involves only combat ships.  |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
5202
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:43:00 -
[216] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:When gankers are out 'to get you', they will, and nothing to do about it. Like I said the other day in a thread.......if the miner chooses not to tank and goes for yield, that is the RISK factor in risk vs reward. But I guess you think that involves only combat ships.
Okay, so what's the problem?
This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Federation posting cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online posting.
fofofofofo |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1376
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:43:00 -
[217] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:baltec1 wrote:They did nothing to protect themselves. Fitting some tank would help them. Two Catalysts won't gank a tanked Mack. That's why miners are dumb. They refuse to fit for anything but yield, even when CCP gave them added tools to be less gankable. When gankers are out 'to get you', they will, and nothing to do about it. Like I said the other day in a thread.......if the miner chooses not to tank and goes for yield, that is the RISK factor in risk vs reward. What sides of the argument are we on? I'm no longer even sure.
I think it's great that it only takes two Catalysts to blow up Yield Macks. What is your position?
Caldari Militia |
Bane Necran
548
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 20:49:00 -
[218] - Quote
As much as i'm generally against ganking defenseless miners i have to agree those who don't fit for anything but yield are asking for it.
With some luck they'll just make the mistake once.
"It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
670
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 21:58:00 -
[219] - Quote
A maxed yield, but tanked mack has 17-25k EHP (depending on player skills and gang bonuses).
An untanked max yield mack has about 12-16k EHP...
A max dps t2 fit catalyst outputs up to 700 EFT dps, and runs about 10m isk...
A max dps cheapfit catalyst outputs around 500 EFT dps, and runs about 2.5-3m isk...
Unless it's changed recently, concord's response time in a 0.5 system is ~ 20s.
It is possible to gank mackinaws for profit with these values.... although the profit margin is slim....
It is fairly easy to balance yield and tank, but if everyone is going straight yield fits, then it's time for the gank-games to begin!
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Vanyr Andrard
Foo Holdings
Free 2 Play
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 23:18:00 -
[220] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:baltec1 wrote:They did nothing to protect themselves. Fitting some tank would help them. Two Catalysts won't gank a tanked Mack. That's why miners are dumb. They refuse to fit for anything but yield, even when CCP gave them added tools to be less gankable.
You base this statement on your exhaustive survey of 40 miners who were each ganked for being the ones in the belt who didn't fit tank?
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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
417
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 23:18:00 -
[221] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It is possible to gank mackinaws for profit with these values.... although the profit margin is slim....
It is possible that the mackinaws being ganked aren't being ganked entirely for profit.
It's got something to do with that place out there, you know, null, whatever the **** that is. Or so I got told anyway.
Thought for the day, can null actually exist?
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
|
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1378
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 23:49:00 -
[222] - Quote
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/10/as-usual-goonswarm-proves-us-wrong.html
I've gone on a couple of rants lately, bitching about the apparent intention by CCP to make highsec a safer place for carebears. Crimewatch, especially suspect flagging. Gangbang kill rights. Wardec costs. A lack of desire to balance highsec's risk versus reward.
And the mining barge and exhumer buff. Especially this.
Some of those, taken individually, are worthwhile and necessary changes. Taken as a whole, they spoke to an overhaul shift in philosophy. Perhaps that shift is not much of a shift at all. Take the miner buffs, for example.
The commonly held belief, since the buff, was that ganking these ships were now so unprofitable that they'd become effectively ungankable, even when the miners fit for mining yield only. I certainly took this notion at face value. As did many in the community.
It took Goonswarm to prove us wrong as they now embark on Gallente Ice Interdiction 2.0. Whereas highsec may be a bit safer, due to changes this past year, and mining ganking as a profitable solo profession is no more, there are still ways to turn a profit if you gank miners on a large enough scale.
I received a private tweet from Powers on the October 14th, hinting that I should check out the Oxygen Isotope market. I saw that something was going down. Volumes way up, and the price nearly doubled in a 24 hour period. But it didn't occur to me at all that they were ganking Mackinaws.
I've been poring over the Ministry of Love killboards. (Unfortunately, I won't be linking them, since I was asked not to make the URL public. I'll leave publicizing MiniLuv's killboards to Goonswarm or someone else.)
Since October 13, Goonswarm has destroyed 209 mining barges, exhumers, and industrial command ships (mainly Retrievers, Mackinaws, and Orcas.) Most Retriever kills require a single Catalyst. Mackinaw kills require two or three Catalysts (depending on whether the miner fits any tank whatsoever.) Orca kills are taking between nine and twelve Catalysts.
Two popular fits I'm seeing, one a Tech II fit, the other a cheaper Tech I fit.
Quote:[Tech II Catalyst]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Prototype Sensor Booster
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Light Ion Blaster II,Void S
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I This Tech II puppy costs approximately 7.5M ISK.
Quote:[Tech I Catalyst]
Linear Flux Stabilizer I
Linear Flux Stabilizer I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Anode Light Neutron Particle Cannon I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I This fit runs about 2.7M ISK.
The average module drop off a Mackinaw is about 3M ISK, plus another 20M salvaging an armor plate (75% drop rate.) Considering it takes between 7M and 20M ISK worth of Catalysts to gank a Mackinaw, profiting on the gank alone is slim to none.
(Hey CCP, release some faction/deadspace mining lasers, harvesters and upgrades. Give the yield miners an opportunity to bling out their ships. Bring back miner ganking for profit to some small degree.)
Check out the Oxygen Isotope market. Look at the volumes the last five days. This is how you profit. Not through ganking, but through destabilizing the market, which the ganking encourages. It requires a massive effort though, one that Goonswarm is readily capable of. No 100-person alliance is going to be able to accomplish this.
The oxytope volumes do speak further of Goonswarm's motivations here. They aren't so high that Goonswarm is in total control of the market, oxytope stocks volumes, pre-interdiction not so high, that Goonswarm is looking at profits in the hundreds of billions. I think this is more of a trial run, to see if an Interdiction 2.0 is feasible. Consider 2.0 a beta test. Make some profit, cover the costs of the exercise, but it doesn't appear Goonswarm's gone all-in on this little endeavour. I think it's most of the *****-and-giggles, and to prove to themselves that if they want to do Ice Interdictions in the future, turn massive profits, the ability to do so is well within their reach. I'd expect to see more of this in 2013, on a grander scale.
Caldari Militia |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
421
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 02:29:00 -
[223] - Quote
Quote:(Hey CCP, release some faction/deadspace mining lasers, harvesters and upgrades. Give the yield miners an opportunity to bling out their ships. Bring back miner ganking for profit to some small degree.)
lolz. just lolz.
Faction is usually == T2 so errr... why would they?
I used to fly with a faction booster for cap stability for naughty rats in lowsec? Would that help?
Maybe the Harvester drones I use to have?
The T2 rigs I used to fit?
No?
Maybe we just need gankers to realise that miners don't actually care and then we can move on a bit from this garbage.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
|
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1382
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 06:11:00 -
[224] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:lolz. just lolz.
Faction is usually == T2 so errr... why would they?
I used to fly with a faction booster for cap stability for naughty rats in lowsec? Would that help?
Maybe the Harvester drones I use to have?
The T2 rigs I used to fit?
No?
Maybe we just need gankers to realise that miners don't actually care and then we can move on a bit from this garbage. And you had the nerve to call me illiterate?
Caldari Militia |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
422
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 06:28:00 -
[225] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:
Maybe we just need gankers to realise that miners don't actually care and then we can move on a bit from this garbage.
And you had the nerve to call me illiterate?
My English was true,
My heart was so pure,
Of the things that I said,
I am definitely sure.
Poetic is here,
Once again so I see,
Trying to do a Tippia,
On lil' ol'me.
But you're 2 paragraphs short,
And a touch out of line,
Tippia you're not,
It's just a Poetic whine.
Is it Stanziel for Stanza,
Or Stanziel for Zeal,
The words that you speak,
Sorry, none of it's real.
(c) TL 2012
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
|
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
122
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 06:45:00 -
[226] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:
Maybe we just need gankers to realise that miners don't actually care and then we can move on a bit from this garbage.
And you had the nerve to call me illiterate? My English was true, My heart was so pure, Of the things that I said, I am definitely sure. Poetic is here, Once again so I see, Trying to do a Tippia, On lil' ol'me. But you're 2 paragraphs short, And a touch out of line, Tippia you're not, It's just a Poetic whine. Is it Stanziel for Stanza, Or Stanziel for Zeal, The words that you speak, Sorry, none of it's real. (c) TL 2012
Bravo. :slowclap:
It's The Legendary Extraordinary Me |
Siobhan MacLeary
BRG Corp
Ocularis Inferno
21
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 09:15:00 -
[227] - Quote
As I said in the other thread before permalock: This is going to make wormhole life irritating, though, truthfully, only for those of us who live in the lower class holes. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1382
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 09:24:00 -
[228] - Quote
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:As I said in the other thread before permalock: This is going to make wormhole life irritating, though, truthfully, only for those of us who live in the lower class holes. AFK miners will fill your holes?
Actually, won't that be good? Lots of free killing.
Caldari Militia |
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
1855
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 09:49:00 -
[229] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:AFK miners will fill your holes?
The way you're wording that makes my tummy feel bad. :(
Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Marcus Alkhaar
Ready. Aim. Fire.
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 10:33:00 -
[230] - Quote
I just wanted to eft-warrior how tanky a skiff can get.... here's my result
[Skiff, skiff]
Internal Force Field Array I
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Ice Harvester II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
+5% shield hp implant (name: SM-705)
squad commander
130k ehp / 160k ehp
Tengu boost on
158k ehp / 191k ehp
if u place a rokh-alt(250k ehp) with 8x shield transfers next to the skiff fleet, any of them can recieve an instant 8,4k burst tank (3k shield per cycle). This makes catalysts pretty much useless at ganking skiffs.
If u use alpha tornadoes with 14k per volley you'll need 12 of them to 1-voley this skiff. thats equilant to (85x 12 =) 1020 mill isk worth of suicideships.
In all fairness, I wouldnt call this bad odds for the miners. Mining corporations start to make sense as they can defend their miners?
|
Mike Adoulin
Trans-Aerospace Industries
28
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 11:10:00 -
[231] - Quote
Seeing lots more Skiffs and Procs in the ice belts now.
They are learning..:) |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
946
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 12:47:00 -
[232] - Quote
So, gankers are 'always' supposed to profit....and want CCP to make ganking them even MORE profitable (see Poetic's Rant above).
But to play, and not be considered 'stupid', miners must be bad, low yield, inefficient miners.
We are expected for some insane reason to do badly at our profession in order to 'survive'. The ganker attitude is so that THEY can profit. THIS is the true un-balance in Eve. |
Ryhss
Short Bus Riders Group
20
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 12:55:00 -
[233] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Not invulnerable, just not cheap to do.
I think you missed the humor/sarcasm of this post.... |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 14:16:00 -
[234] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:So, gankers are 'always' supposed to profit....and want CCP to make ganking them even MORE profitable (see Poetic's Rant above).
But to play, and not be considered 'stupid', miners must be bad, low yield, inefficient miners.
We are expected for some insane reason to do badly at our profession in order to 'survive'. The ganker attitude is so that THEY can profit. THIS is the true un-balance in Eve.
So how's that tower of yours doing these days? Better than the mackinaws we've shot, I hope. |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 14:20:00 -
[235] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:baltec1 wrote:
They did nothing to protect themselves.
No time to. The mouse cannot avoid the owl. edit: By your reasoning, the residents of Hiroshima in August 1945 were all dumb for not 'protecting themselves'.
I apologize, I'm severely sleep deprived and missed this earlier. Did you compare shooting mining barges in an internet spaceship videogame to a nuclear attack on a civilian target? |
Josef Djugashvilis
700
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 14:22:00 -
[236] - Quote
When miners were easy to kill, it was their fault for not tanking.
Now CCP have made it easier for miners to survive a gank, it is the fault of miners for being too hard to gank.
This is not a signature. |
Jacob Kelbrand
Eve Defence Force
Fatal Ascension
17
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 14:28:00 -
[237] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:So, gankers are 'always' supposed to profit....and want CCP to make ganking them even MORE profitable (see Poetic's Rant above).
But to play, and not be considered 'stupid', miners must be bad, low yield, inefficient miners.
We are expected for some insane reason to do badly at our profession in order to 'survive'. The ganker attitude is so that THEY can profit. THIS is the true un-balance in Eve.
The entitlement is strong with this one. |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 14:28:00 -
[238] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:When miners were easy to kill, it was their fault for not tanking.
Now CCP have made it easier for miners to survive a gank, it is the fault of miners for being too hard to gank.
I think the whole point of this exercise is that they're still gankable, and still dumb as hell. I hope this assessment of the current internet spaceship situation helps.
e: what were you even trying to say in your post anyways
i mean honestly |
Killiana Lett
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 14:32:00 -
[239] - Quote
Clearly the solution is making highsec ice vastly smaller rocks that don't replenish nearly as fast. |
Vanyr Andrard
Foo Holdings
Free 2 Play
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.19 14:34:00 -
[240] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:
Maybe we just need gankers to realise that miners don't actually care and then we can move on a bit from this garbage.
And you had the nerve to call me illiterate? My English was true, My heart was so pure, Of the things that I said, I am definitely sure. Poetic is here, Once again so I see, Trying to do a Tippia, On lil' ol'me. But you're 2 paragraphs short, And a touch out of line, Tippia you're not, It's just a Poetic whine. Is it Stanziel for Stanza, Or Stanziel for Zeal, The words that you speak, Sorry, none of it's real. (c) TL 2012
This is why poetry has a bad name.
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