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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2012.11.03 14:23:00 -
[151] - Quote
another option to nerf ecm is reducing the bonus on ecm rigs the op range rig adds 20% and the strength rig adds 10%. the rigs for the other e-war add only 5% strength and non for range slightly lobsided i would say as well as the sig distortion amp that boosts ecm only. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
808
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Posted - 2012.11.03 14:35:00 -
[152] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Hey Fozzie. These are all good changes. I have only one critisism. CCP Fozzie wrote: *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)
I think this skill should not affect ship sensor strength but the effectiveness of ECCM modules... That's it. Good work though Absolutely wrong. What you propose is buffing ECCM to make them mandatory just like these new skills, but unlike skills ECCM can not be put onto any ship requiring it.
Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen? 14 |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
22
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Posted - 2012.11.03 14:57:00 -
[153] - Quote
Fozzie, why can't we simply change the effects of ECM?
instead of preventing a ship from locking (effectively rending all modules useless, sans prop mods, as they require a lock), what about preventing individual modules from working in the event of a succesfull jam?
perhaps one type of ecm module would prevent a point or web from working, another might shut off high slots for a time, another might cause heat to build up faster (sort of like a stuxnet virus).
this gives the jammee a fighting chance to work with whatever remains working on his/her ship, instead of just shutting everything down. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
104
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Posted - 2012.11.03 15:09:00 -
[154] - Quote
The changes to tracking disruptor are a JOKE. 5%? Sensor dampners effectiveness DO NOT NEED to be increased. Sensor dampners are all ready effective. Which idi0ts have convinced you sensor dampners aren't effective?
Tracking disruptors SHOULD be NERFED to the level of target painters, but will only get 37% effectiveness with optimal or tracking scripts. You and your whole 'TEAM' is r3t@rd3d and have created and will implement a few SILLY forseen fails. I've already stopped commented on some of these threads because I have every intention of ABUSING THE FU*K out of your changes, but NOT THIS THREAD.
I suggest you REALLY think this threw. ECM should break locks ONLY (no 20 second wait for locks) and use ALOT of cap, but have short duration. All the modules mentioned should use ALOT of cap, except for target painters = / [SMUG]-áSORRY for party rocking! v0v
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ScoRpS
0utbreak Outbreak.
54
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Posted - 2012.11.03 15:18:00 -
[155] - Quote
ECM needs a radical overhaul. As it is it's abused and no fun at all and has been for a long long time.
A single module that totally negates jamming 100% similar to triage would be nice.
Or a sliding scale system based on sensor strength. jamming strength 24 cannot jam ship with sensor strength of 25. Taking the chance element completely out.
ECM drones should have same penalty reducing them to anti frigate/tackle only.
As it is 0utbreak condemns the use of ecm in our own gangs favoring tactics and strategies over jamming. We like our prey to be live and kicking! |
Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
110
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Posted - 2012.11.03 15:30:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category).
4 more unsexy skills to train.
I accidentally... the bookmark. How much is it worth? |
Eridanii
Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
7
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Posted - 2012.11.03 15:34:00 -
[157] - Quote
I welcome the slight buff to Sensor Damps but I don't think it really makes or breaks anything. It helps damps in normal scram-range situations.
Max skilled Arazu with two damp rigs before and after buff Range reduction 58.57% vs 64.43% Ship with 140km lock range vs 2 damps before and after ~28.5km / ~22.5km vs 3 damps before and after ~19.0km / ~14.0km
I don't think they will become the new go to ECM but I think we'll see increased effectiveness at locking down targets around scram ranges.
Range damps only work if you can dictate range and the gal boats bonus'd for damps are kind of bricks and can't always dictate range. Once you close to point-blank, the damps are worthless, leaving them as a situational ewar mod which I am alright with. ECM works the same at point-blank all the way to optimal leaving it the preferred ewar mod for neutralizing someone.
I like the idea of having ECM be the short-range ewar as Caldari's racial counter to Gal blasters and Damps being the long-range ewar for Gallente's counter to Caldari sniping. Reducing ECM optimal by a lot and increasing falloff would be a great way to implement this. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1601
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Posted - 2012.11.03 15:35:00 -
[158] - Quote
I'll just leave this here.. http://themittani.com/features/ecm-not-nerf-we-deserve-fix-we-need
ECM needs an overhaul, nerfing range, adding a bunch of skill to effect will do nothing and might even cause more problems along the way. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer |
Julius Foederatus
Hyper-Nova
140
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 15:42:00 -
[159] - Quote
Damp bonuses were not boosted enough. It needs 10% per level, not 7.5%. Either that or we need a targeting range nerf across the board. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
31
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Posted - 2012.11.03 15:49:00 -
[160] - Quote
ECM:
I hate the fact that we are getting 4 new skills that we'll just HAVE TO train. I don't know if what I'm about to ask is possible but:
Link these 4 skills together. So I could train Minmatar sensor str for L1, gallente sensor str for l2 minmatar again for l3 gallente agian for l4 and caldari for l5. With this I will end up with 10% minmatar 10%gallente and 5% caldari jam str. If I chose so I could also train all minmatar so I can get 25% sensor str bonus.
This would add a unique flavour to all characters. You would have to be careful when choosing as the changes are irreversible.
Furthermore, I think it is a technical problem to implement the stacking penalty for ecm. But there is another way around.
Make it so that each ecm effect beyond the first on the ship increases ships sensor strength by 10% (Capped at 150%)
This would cause the sensor strength to increase by 40% when being attacked by a single flight of ecm drones. It wouldn't have huge effect on dedicated ewar ships as their jam str is already high and they won't really put more than 2 jammers on a single ship. If they do then that ship probably has ECCM and I don't think it is a bad idea for an ECCM ship to enjoy this sort of protection.
TD:
I believe a flat -5% reduction on base effectiveness would have been a better tweak (i.e.15.1% instead of 20.1%) TD's are quite powerful atm.
Damps: I see no meaningful change here. Damps already had a decent range. I'm actually content with damps as they are. Maybe a little bit reduction on cap consumption???please???
Painters: Make painters scrpited. One script = target painting. Other script = target signature reduction. So that target painting ships can also be used defensively in gangs when a teammate is under heavy fire. Would give a nice flavour to minmatar ewar.
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fukier
Flatline.
92
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Posted - 2012.11.03 16:11:00 -
[161] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:Hey Fozzie. These are all good changes. I have only one critisism. CCP Fozzie wrote: *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)
I think this skill should not affect ship sensor strength but the effectiveness of ECCM modules... That's it. Good work though Absolutely wrong. What you propose is buffing ECCM to make them mandatory just like these new skills, but unlike skills ECCM can not be put onto any ship requiring it. Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen?
i dunno i like the idea of it increasing the effectiveness of eccm and backup arrays and also projected eccm...
cuss if they are just doing it to increase base stats why not just scrap the whole train more stuff thing and just increase the base strength of the ships by 25%?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
fukier
Flatline.
92
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 16:16:00 -
[162] - Quote
ScoRpS wrote:ECM needs a radical overhaul. As it is it's abused and no fun at all and has been for a long long time.
A single module that totally negates jamming 100% similar to triage would be nice.
Or a sliding scale system based on sensor strength. jamming strength 24 cannot jam ship with sensor strength of 25. Taking the chance element completely out.
ECM drones should have same penalty reducing them to anti frigate/tackle only.
As it is 0utbreak condemns the use of ecm in our own gangs favoring tactics and strategies over jamming. We like our prey to be live and kicking!
what about revamping the auto targeting unit to be a back up targeting unit that will allow you to target when jammed but has simular negative effects like a cloak or warp core stablizer?
so when the mod is active it reduces max targeting range sig resoution? the cycle of the mod would be 40 seconds... so it would only negate one of two jams... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
kyrieee
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
100
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Posted - 2012.11.03 16:16:00 -
[163] - Quote
Adding four racial sensor strength skills doesn't strike me as a good way to balance ECM. The skills will become mandatory for everyone to train to at least level IV, which means that you're effectively just setting a new, lower baseline for ECM. Furthermore, the skills do absolutely nothing for you when you're not being jammed. That is a problem tied to the ECM mechanic, but it's still a huge problem. Tracking skills / modules help me track in all situations, sebos / targeting skills always help me lock faster, but sensor strength gives me a slightly higher chance of not being rendered useless.
It is a bad concept for a module and it's no better as a skill. Unless you already have a plan of what you want to do with these skills with regards to a future overhaul of the ECM mechanic then you should reconsider if adding them to the game is the right move. Otherwise you may very well end up in a situation where you need to redesign the skill or just reimburse everyone's SP. ECM is a broken mechanic, don't feed the monster by having everyone invest more SP into it.
If what you want to achieve is a slight ECM nerf, then just change the jam strength on all the jammers. Weeks of training time to maybe get jammed less isn't going to solve any problems. |
Super Stallion
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.11.03 16:32:00 -
[164] - Quote
kyrieee wrote:Adding four racial sensor strength skills doesn't strike me as a good way to balance ECM. The skills will become mandatory for everyone to train to at least level IV, which means that you're effectively just setting a new, lower baseline for ECM. Furthermore, the skills do absolutely nothing for you when you're not being jammed. That is a problem tied to the ECM mechanic, but it's still a huge problem. Tracking skills / modules help me track in all situations, sebos / targeting skills always help me lock faster, but sensor strength gives me a slightly higher chance of not being rendered useless.
It is a bad concept for a module and it's no better as a skill. Unless you already have a plan of what you want to do with these skills with regards to a future overhaul of the ECM mechanic then you should reconsider if adding them to the game is the right move. Otherwise you may very well end up in a situation where you need to redesign the skill or just reimburse everyone's SP. ECM is a broken mechanic, don't feed the monster by having everyone invest more SP into it.
If what you want to achieve is a slight ECM nerf, then just change the jam strength on all the jammers. Weeks of training time to maybe get jammed less isn't going to solve any problems.
These skills will also make it more difficult for someone to scan you down. since ship size, for probes, is ( sig rad / sensor strength ).
So, they do have an effect that goes beyond facing ECM ships. |
Yue Rubens
The Dancer. Initiative Mercenaries
2
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Posted - 2012.11.03 16:54:00 -
[165] - Quote
I agree with Fin that it would be pretty hard for allrounders to skill this for all their ships, however not all races/shiptypes need these skills *mandatory*, a falcon pilot will need them, just as a scimitar pilot will. Flying a dps ship in fleet will not make this skill to 5 mandatory, as ECM is usually not directed at the dps bulk of the fleet.
To those guys who call for a change to the scorpion, or complain that caldari has only one viable battleship:
Just no!
It is not a fault that caldari have a fun, different, ewar-based bs, the fault lies in that 2 of the other races don't. The dominix takes a similar position to the scorp as it is better at support/ewar/neuts/versatility than damage.
Buhu the scorpion has no armor tank? Well zang, first off, it's a caldari ship. Second, it can jam from up to 150km away, what does it need tank for. If you want a brawler/neut scorp you'll have to sacrifice mids for shield tank. And then you'll get the added goodie of a bonused burst lockbreaker with like 25+ km range.
A well fielded raven fleet can be quite useful, too, the doctrine wheel turns every day... |
Timothia Hodges
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
5
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:09:00 -
[166] - Quote
Does scanning really need to be made harder? |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
148
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:17:00 -
[167] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen? May be because unstopable ship is bad concept ?
What I don't understand is that people don't mind having kiting ship hard countering brawlers but hate EWAR even though EWAR can be countered the same way Lr fit counter SR fit.
Of course, ECM is a bit screwed mecanic, but the concept of fitting to protect against some threat should stay. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
352
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:20:00 -
[168] - Quote
Total newb question: How/why do these changes effect probing? "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
Kai'rae Saarkus
Ganja Labs Exodus.
26
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:26:00 -
[169] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Total newb question: How/why do these changes effect probing?
They make it harder (smaller signatures).
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Why the hell anyone still insists on making fights determined at the fitting screen? May be because unstopable ship is bad concept ? What I don't understand is that people don't mind having kiting ship hard countering brawlers but hate EWAR even though EWAR can be countered the same way Lr fit counter SR fit. Of course, ECM is a bit screwed mecanic, but the concept of fitting to protect against some threat should stay.
Because fitting a LR ship to kite SR ships doesn't immediately gimp me against every other possible gang comp out there. Fitting an ECCM gimps me against everything that is not ECM. This is why people are happier with damps / TDS: naturally, people fit modules to maximise the stats these types of EWAR affect.
The second reason is that there is only one place to counter ECM: before you undock. Every other type of EWAR can be countered in space (stay outside of Point / Web / Neut range, burn close to your target against damps, fly to optimise your tracking / range against TDs). The only thing you can do against ECM is blap it, which isn't really a counter because you can't do it if it's affecting you. |
fukier
Flatline.
92
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:35:00 -
[170] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Total newb question: How/why do these changes effect probing?
scanning works on how big your ships is i.e. your sig radius vrs how strong your sensor strength is...
if you have a low enough ratio it makes it litterally impossilbe to scan you down (ccp fixed this a while ago)
but with a 25% increase in a tengu sensor strength you could in theory now have unscanable ships again...
but tbh this would only last a little while as fozzie said he already has ideas for a counter to this... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
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Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1766
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 17:38:00 -
[171] - Quote
That website is **** and that article just proves it.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Suitonia
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
127
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:47:00 -
[172] - Quote
Fozzie, are there any plans to review ECM drones? (And all ewar drones to be honest, anything that doesn't have EC in it's name is worthless). Right now ECM drones are much stronger than a multispectral jammer on an unbonused hull which doesn't seem inline at all. Also, due to the way the ECM Mechanic works, 5x EC-300's for example don't have any stacking penalty, they are just extra dicerolls of the same strength, where as the 4th and 5th light sensor drone is applying the same stacking penalty as if you were putting 4-5 damp modules on someone for example, which means your 4% target range and scan resolution damp is actually 0.4% or something not even worth mentioning.
I think to get around the stacking penalty a good solution would be to maybe just roll all 5 drones into a single drone for each type of ewar.
i.e. instead of using 5x SD-300's you would use 1x SD-300 which takes up 25m3 space and is 1 drone and would have the cumulative stats of all 5 drones. Thus getting around the stacking penalty. Medium sized drones would take 50m3 space for 1, and heavy 125m3. Make it so it still takes up all 5x drone slots though so someone can't launch 5x new SD-300s
ECM drones are way too good right now and really need to be turned downwards. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
219
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:59:00 -
[173] - Quote
Timothia Hodges wrote:Does scanning really need to be made harder?
YES! "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
362
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:59:00 -
[174] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:That website is **** and that article just proves it. Website is indeed ****, but article is pretty much in line with what has been suggested repeatedly over the years .. not by me mind you, I want the jam mechanic gone as cinematic mechanics have no place outside of single player games, but I have no idea what to replace it with.
Makes a lot of sense to create a variable jam duration, smaller ships will unfortunately still be raped by ECM as they generally get the full cycle, but for larger ships lock times takes the place of part of the duration and if/when damps are sorted an ECM/Damp combo will be the way to go against larger hulls.
Problem for me remains the effect itself and that my precious light ships can be removed for the entire duration of a skirmish .. frig/dessie battles rarely go beyond 30s unless it is some gayass kiting contest.
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
182
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Posted - 2012.11.03 17:59:00 -
[175] - Quote
I am looking forward for these changes to go live - but it won't stop ECM QQ post since this tweak proves that the more threads about it are written (not how many people are concerned), the more likely it's going to be changed. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1766
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Posted - 2012.11.03 18:10:00 -
[176] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:That website is **** and that article just proves it. Website is indeed ****, but article is pretty much in line with what has been suggested repeatedly over the years .. not by me mind you, I want the jam mechanic gone as cinematic mechanics have no place outside of single player games, but I have no idea what to replace it with. Makes a lot of sense to create a variable jam duration, smaller ships will unfortunately still be raped by ECM as they generally get the full cycle, but for larger ships lock times takes the place of part of the duration and if/when damps are sorted an ECM/Damp combo will be the way to go against larger hulls. Problem for me remains the effect itself and that my precious light ships can be removed for the entire duration of a skirmish .. frig/dessie battles rarely go beyond 30s unless it is some gayass kiting contest. The real issue is people trying to keep the complete loss of locking. That is a terrible, terrible way to start. Any suggestions or ideas need to start from the ground up. Forget everything about the current form of ECM and do not begin to make a suggestion that is based on a 'all or nothing' mechanic.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc To be Announced.
6
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Posted - 2012.11.03 18:22:00 -
[177] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Damps will still be useless.
Damps are good now, they'll be even better after the ship changes and damp changes. A celestis can shut down two snipers like tier 3 battlecruisers at 100km with good skills each damp is -51% locking range, how is that useless? |
fukier
Flatline.
92
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Posted - 2012.11.03 18:28:00 -
[178] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:The real issue is people trying to keep the complete loss of locking. That is a terrible, terrible way to start. Any suggestions or ideas need to start from the ground up. Forget everything about the current form of ECM and do not begin to make a suggestion that is based on a 'all or nothing' mechanic.
3 ideas for ecm
one: make ecm the tracking disrupters for missiles
two: make ecm reduce the max targets you can lock.
tech I = 1 less target
tech 2 = 1.5 targets
you can always target atleast one target.
three:
instead of making it chance based for you not to lock its chance based for weapons to have a reduced damage in the applied damage formula (this would be outside of the tracking foumula) like they did for titan tracking but make it a mod that makes a simular effect. where damage is calcuated as = chance to hit against x (x is a random number and if chance to his is greater then you get damage if its lower then you dont do damage) what i am suggesting is ecm affects how x is generated... thus increase its chance to be greater then 0.5 thus making is harder to do damage. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
532
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Posted - 2012.11.03 18:29:00 -
[179] - Quote
:D ECM nerf idea...
Make ECM a high chance to break lock module, limit how many can be fitted to your ships by adding some sort of stacking penality (4 would be most optimal, anything more is not useful)
When the ECM breaks lock, the target can begin relocking again right away... the cycle time could be reduced to 10 sec. and jamming strenght doubled (or something), you would be able to jam most ships often, even perma jamming stuff when you take targeting time into consideration if you ballance the numbers right, ECM will be more useful vs slow locking ships, but frigs and cruisers can relock fairly quick compared to a bs (depending on size of target)
you could use damps together with the ecm to get even better results.
and again, the most needed nerf for retribution is duration of jams from ECM drones... it should only break locks like the ECM burst and such. Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
fukier
Flatline.
92
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Posted - 2012.11.03 18:36:00 -
[180] - Quote
Gneeznow wrote:Mortimer Civeri wrote:Damps will still be useless. Damps are good now, they'll be even better after the ship changes and damp changes. A celestis can shut down two snipers like tier 3 battlecruisers at 100km with good skills each damp is -51% locking range, how is that useless?
on grid probing is the problem to take full effect of the mod... as you said 100km but snipping used to mean around 180km which will result in you getting probed and interdicted and die to close range ahacs...
so damps are great they just need to fix on grid probing... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
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