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Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance
57
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:40:00 -
[781] - Quote
Katie Door wrote:*snipped also*
What you're saying is that his facts are not correct.
The things he said were not fact specific but a generalistic overview.
"Piracy isn't all that profitable either."
What you read was "piracy isn't profitable". What he said was "piracy is profitable but not exceptionally so". What he said is true, its not the most profitable endevor to take up. Though it may be fairly profitable, there are other things you could do that are "all that profitable."
"Eve pirates don't really affect commerce at all."
Sure you've killed and looted lots of isks worth over a long period of time. But has that really affected commerce? You ask for statistics for that basis but this is a statement of a non-affect. The fact that there is no big news article or readily availible statistics is testament to its non-affect. On the other hand there is one example of one such event that impacted commerce. The Goon's ice interdiction had a huge impact on gallente ice commerce and it can be measured. Piracy in general has had no such effect.
As for the rancer thing. Yes its possible to go around it, but it requires a massive detour. Rancer is rancer because its the only effecient way to move between the two areas. Rancer is what we'd like to avoid with this kind of a change becuase it would put too much emphasys on too small of an area.
Gatecamps... Starting to think you missinterperate his post. Nothing of substance to repy here to. No big ideas here for someone to really agree or disagree with.
The posts are based on the understanding of how these thing work. The only entity with the "facts" or what exists of facts for these things are at CCP. Or in another point of view, what we would like to change are the facts of the current stale empire area of space. We don't know what the fact of the future would be after the change nor does anyone else, all we can use is our understanding of how people (in general) work. And based on past experience what would be likely in the future. |

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
5
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 21:58:00 -
[782] - Quote
In my Eyes Gate Camps is the Mining for PvP Pilots just a lame excuse to have a lot of alts, i prefer playing with only one Char and TBH no one wants to fly a Spy in my Corp.
I like the idea of Splitting the Borders (but only Caldari/Amarr Border vs. Gallente/Minmatar Borders) because it would make sense.
But if this happens please change the current Spy "mechanics" (maybe with a Module [and no i dont mean Cov Cloaks!]) and rethink the Gate Camp mechanic aswell, oh and please give us more Routes from High to Low and High to Null.
(BTW i dont care about Gatecamps because i use WH for travelling into low and nullsec but sitting behind the comfort of a cluster change is just dull and again a lame excuse for more alts (which also a Pest for a MMORPG but maybe thats more imho)...
PS: Sry for my bad english |

Katie Door
the united Negative Ten.
9
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Posted - 2013.07.18 08:08:00 -
[783] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote: what you're saying is that his facts are not correct.
yes.
Erutpar Ambient wrote:The things he said were not fact specific but a generalistic overview.
ow really ? how is "there's no way around Rancer " anything but a statement of fact ? to me, that doesn't look like a generalistic overview.
Erutpar Ambient wrote:"Piracy isn't all that profitable either."
What you read was "piracy isn't profitable". What he said was "piracy is profitable but not exceptionally so". What he said is true, its not the most profitable endevor to take up. Though it may be fairly profitable, there are other things you could do that are "all that profitable."
you wanna argue semantics here ? you can make profit engaging in piracy. what I think you and OP are saying that the profit that IS made, is not enough for either of you. again, there is no way of ascertaining what you base this on. is this based on personal experience or what you've heard in NPC corp channel ? what you also seem to ignore is my request for credentials. how long has OP been pirating to make such a blanket statement?
Erutpar Ambient wrote:"Eve pirates don't really affect commerce at all."
Sure you've killed and looted lots of isks worth over a long period of time. But has that really affected commerce? You ask for statistics for that basis but this is a statement of a non-affect. The fact that there is no big news article or readily availible statistics is testament to its non-affect. On the other hand there is one example of one such event that impacted commerce. The Goon's ice interdiction had a huge impact on gallente ice commerce and it can be measured. Piracy in general has had no such effect.
Ow really ? so all the ships, modules and implants we have destroyed came out of thin air ? gotcha.....
Again, you are arguing semantics. previously mentioned ships,modules and implants have for the most part been bought of the market. after their destruction they'll hopefully be replaced by our "customer", AKA bought from market. I think what you are trying to say is that the magnitude of the effect piracy has on commerce ("the market") is negligible. since both of us do not have access to the volume of trading in New Eden, it is a personal opinion wether or not you think the effect is negligible. not a statement of fact. on the off chance of "commerce" is meant to entail trading, transporting and the likes: try to get Black Frog to move your stuff to Rancer or Tama, then come back to me, and tell me that piracy has not effected commerce.
Erutpar Ambient wrote: As for the rancer thing. Yes its possible to go around it, but it requires a massive detour. Rancer is rancer because its the only effecient way to move between the two areas. Rancer is what we'd like to avoid with this kind of a change becuase it would put too much emphasys on too small of an area.
ok, so you want effeciency AND safety. in low sec. No, just no. there are already tools you can use, in or out of game, to make an informed guess as to the status of certain low-sec systems (map> statics, Dotlan). you want efficiency, find a way through Rancer. you want safety, go around. At this point in time, you can't have both. deal with it
(ran out of alotted quotes, CBA to make this a 2 post reply)
As for "Gatecamping isn't fun or PvP" : the first part is (most likely) OP's personal opinion, not fact. the last part is just plain false.
So try harder next time. check your facts.
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Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
107
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 13:44:00 -
[784] - Quote
Just let doing mission for one side - will automaticly infilct the same negative impact on other faction standing.
Phantasm - 150% speed bonus in cloak - 2LY jump range
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Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:45:00 -
[785] - Quote
Katie Door wrote: *snipped*
A couple of things here. First the easy thing. Piracy has affected logistics to rancer sure. But in general piracy has not fad any noticable affect on commerce in general. Or as you put it, the affect is negligible meaning not noticable. When a person loses their pod or ship yes it stimulates the sales of implants ships and modules. But how much if this are pirates responsible? Blowing up what someone is hauling may increase demand or decrease supply, but are pirates destroying enough to affect commerce?
Nope. You would need to blow up a large portion of an individual item to impact commerce. And because most commerce doesn't have to go through low sec you wouldn't be given much of an oppurtunity.
Again on the profitability of piracy. First, how much isk could a single person make? Then, how many people could make this much through piracy?
Is piracy a viable profession for one person? Potentially Is piracy a continuous stream of money? Nope Is there a limit to the number of people that can profit from piracy? Yes
I just wanna make it clear, I'm not talking about high sec ganking.
This change would create a steady stream of haulers through low sec. And there will always be tards and unlucky risk takers out there looking to make a quick buck just waiting for someone to grab em. As of now, pirates don't have much to work with. The normal arguement is that they ran em all off by being pirates but that's probably true. There's no real reason for people to go to low sec nowadays other than FW or passing through to null sec. This would be a way to create a steady stream of traffic through. |

polly papercut
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 18:21:00 -
[786] - Quote
posting in a stealth buff gate camps thread.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
325
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Posted - 2013.07.23 18:29:00 -
[787] - Quote
I love the idea of a low sec separating the empires.
Play with the available pirates and sites a little bit and it means all things DON'T go through Jita, you would actually have regional markets that would create interesting oppurtunities and risks for the traders, haulers, PvPers, basically everyone if they do it right.
....and yes its quite easy to get around Rancer, and Ammamake for that matter.
Just not if you are in a hurry. |

polly papercut
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 03:20:00 -
[788] - Quote
If this happened you would have to revert back to full pay out on bounties to the killer, also anyone with a sec status less then 2.0 can not collect on bounties. Besides this will never happen but I bet the OP feels like he is getting somewhere . |

M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
184
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Posted - 2013.07.24 13:52:00 -
[789] - Quote
Yes. Yes, yes yes. Yes.
More regions like Solitude would be awesome! How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |

Vaihto Ehto
25
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 14:24:00 -
[790] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Yes. Yes, yes yes. Yes.
More regions like Solitude would be awesome!
Why would anyone live in Solitude? All the cons of deep lowsec and none of the benefits, basically. Why would you not use an alt to post on the forums? |
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3193
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 14:28:00 -
[791] - Quote
Deep lowsec has no cons
Solitude <3
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 03:15:00 -
[792] - Quote
polly papercut wrote:If this happened you would have to revert back to full pay out on bounties to the killer, also anyone with a sec status less then 2.0 can not collect on bounties. Besides this will never happen but I bet the OP feels like he is getting somewhere .
What in the world is your reasoning for these ideas??????
What does it impact at all? It makes absolutely no sense. Please explain. |

Dues Incarnine
Haul Miners Union
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 23:18:00 -
[793] - Quote
ID love to see this change. That's all I have to say. Also the current bounty system is. Way better than the last |

Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
109
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 23:55:00 -
[794] - Quote
Respect. 
I don't think the OP and some others have fully fleshed this idea out taking into account the full ten year history of this game and the perspective of ALL of the players that pay and play the game.
Luckily, the devs have and that is why you see hi-sec,low-sec, null-sec in their present forms.
As a Merchant of Death I encourage all kinds of increased player interaction, but must draw the line at something that would ruin the game entirely.
I think that player emergant gameplay is the answer, not the artifically induced non emergant forced sheep herding that was originally proposed. |

Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 05:30:00 -
[795] - Quote
Darth Khasei wrote:Respect.  I don't think the OP and some others have fully fleshed this idea out taking into account the full ten year history of this game and the perspective of ALL of the players that pay and play the game. Luckily, the devs have and that is why you see hi-sec,low-sec, null-sec in their present forms. As a Merchant of Death I encourage all kinds of increased player interaction, but must draw the line at something that would ruin the game entirely. I think that player emergant gameplay is the answer, not the artifically induced non emergant forced sheep herding that was originally proposed.
What are you talking about? Has high,low,null sec been in any other form in the past? I wasn't aware of this.
Please explain how the "full ten year history of this game" has anything to do with this idea.
Please explain how this would "ruin the game entirely."
You could fully flesh out your ideas to tell us why you believe what you say.
On the other hand, there have been quite a few issues brought up in this thread that have all been thought through. I don't there's really anything new that hasn't already been given attention. |

Don Purple
Snuggle Factory
27
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 08:06:00 -
[796] - Quote
Interesting Idea but I never see it happening. How about add multiple low sec routes that shorten the distances between the trade hubs to 1-2 jumps. But then we have Rancer happening all over again. Idk fun idea though. |

Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance
77
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 06:33:00 -
[797] - Quote
There is something i want you guys to think about. What periods of time in history are the most interesting? Times of Peace or times of War? What period of time would you guys consider New Eden to be in right now?
Seriously though, who thought that peace time was the right time for the setting of this game in the first place? Wouldn't it have been grand to be playing at the time of the Minmatar rebellion instead of reading about it? Or the Caldari-Gallente war. Or the Amarr Jove war?
Seriously, peace time is a time for the real world. Not video games. Turn Eve into the Warzone it should be!!!
|

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 12:22:00 -
[798] - Quote
Erutpar Ambient wrote:There is something i want you guys to think about. What periods of time in history are the most interesting? Times of Peace or times of War? What period of time would you guys consider New Eden to be in right now?
Seriously though, who thought that peace time was the right time for the setting of this game in the first place? Wouldn't it have been grand to be playing at the time of the Minmatar rebellion instead of reading about it? Or the Caldari-Gallente war. Or the Amarr Jove war?
Seriously, peace time is a time for the real world. Not video games. Turn Eve into the Warzone it should be!!!
have you been to nullsec lately? its constantly war. its mostly just default war with peace between selected groups (blues) |

Afuran
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 15:49:00 -
[799] - Quote
I like it- would create more areas for pirates to operate and more 'escorts' for valuable cargo moving from one empire to the other.
Id also vote for system security to be variable depending on outcomes from faction war. So some .5 systems become .4 and vice versa as borders ebb and flow with the outcome of whatever is going on with faction wars. |

DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
39
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 16:29:00 -
[800] - Quote
Why not place command towers at the gates where one empire meets the other?
To enter into an empire's territory you would have to have the necessary standings plus an Empire Passage Certificate that would need to be purchased on a weekly basis.
The Command Towers would not allow a pilot to pass if they didn't have the necessary documents.
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Mr Barbeque
Mayhem and Ruin
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 19:18:00 -
[801] - Quote
DrysonBennington wrote:Why not place command towers at the gates where one empire meets the other?
To enter into an empire's territory you would have to have the necessary standings plus an Empire Passage Certificate that would need to be purchased on a weekly basis.
The Command Towers would not allow a pilot to pass if they didn't have the necessary documents.
Why? You already need appropriate sec status and faction standing to enter faction highsec as it stands. Your missing the purpose of this idea. All yours would do is make travel have an unneeded tax and quite irksome, without having a positive impact on the economic or pvp landscapes. Boo.
To the OP: This deserves dev attention. Conceptually this would fit well with eve's philosophy. +1
I see most opposition to this taking the stance of fear of camps, or that it will decrease Interhub trade. These positions are flawed.
Its clear that the OP is proposing the idea so that camping all routes should be infeasible. Cloaky haulers will work most times, as they're very hard to catch. There are may options to avoid destruction with a little ingenuity, and the idea that all gates will be hell camped is just fear talking.
Those that think this will hurt interhub trade seem to misunderstand the difference between difficult, and worse. True it will make trading between hubs more difficult, and as a result some people will stop. But traders are opportunists, and will seek to cover the emergent gaps to claim the profit for themselves. This adds more opportunities for competition to the market, making for a much more dynamic climate. This is a positive effect, not worse. If you find yourself thinking that this would make your gameplay more challenging and that's a bad thing, I question your choice of MMO. Why choose eve compared to its much less challenging competitors? Recruiting |

Erutpar Ambient
Real Nice And Laidback Corporation Black Core Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 01:47:00 -
[802] - Quote
Yes, if this and a handful of other changes got implemented we could have some amazing new game features. Maybe a bit more racial distinction. ;) |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3809
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 04:18:00 -
[803] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:The borders between allied empires could be also insecure, since they may be frontier areas since this idea comes with adding new regions that disrupt gate travel, these areas would be a frontier, thus not very well secured.
Seems pretty safe to me.
Anyway, sure, why not. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

Cross Barret
Pod or be Podded
14
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 09:52:00 -
[804] - Quote
no time to read this entire threadnaught, but u get my +1 |

Yandros Soban
ExoGen Foundation The DEAD Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 11:09:00 -
[805] - Quote
Sounds to me like you just want to jump back in time to 2003 when the empires were divided by low sec. CCP didn't seem to like that system though, thus:
3 July 2003
New Superhighway system up and running!
03.07.2003 14:59| By Svarthol Under the leadership of CONCORD a new superhighway system has been constructed to link distant parts of the empires together. The hub of the new highway system is in the Yulai system, the location of the CONCORD Headquarters. From there space travelers are in easy reach of every empire region in just 2 or 3 jumps. All systems that are part of the highway network have a beefed-up security, so using the highway network offers a secure and comfortable way to travel. The superhighway network grid is still in its experimental stages, so people are advised to show caution while using them. Downtimes and operational failures are to be expected. To compensate, using the highway gates will be free of charge until all problems have been ironed out. Welcome to the internet where men are men, women are men and children and the FBI. |

Janna Sway
22
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 13:51:00 -
[806] - Quote
Dear OP,
I cannot comprehend how the isolation of empires would fit into the lore and even if the lore was ignored overall, still would it be very unplausible and strange to isolate the empires and turn them into four islands surrounded by the lawless waters you call "lowsec" in your thread.
Whenever two empire's territories approach one another, a border forms naturally and border zones are the most guarded areas. Border zones are hot zones with pressure and tension between the nations.
The "purposes of CONCORD is to ease the fragile tension and create a foundation for the empires to work their differences out in a peaceful manner." (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CONCORD). Therefore, CONCORD's core interest is to be the most active at the empire's borders and not to be absent, for that's what lowsec means - CONCORD's absence.
Your thread is literally an outcry to abolish CONCORD and its noble values and its replacement by detestable piracy, which is an abomination.
Chaos and disorder are not from God and God through the Empress opposes the proposed conditions in disgust. ALL four empires oppose the proposed condition of isolation and the ulcer of piracy. All four empires are and will keep supporting CONCORD's deeds and values with all force. |

BOS Hydra
Ubiquitous Hurt
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 16:13:00 -
[807] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:
If you want to be a pirate, what is stopping you being a pirate today?
There is nothing to shoot but other pirates. You don't make isk pirating, you make isk doing merc contracts or something completely unrelated to pvp. The reason that nobody cross low sec in freighters except for the very rare extra stupid idiot is that you can do it afk with 0 risk through hi-sec. It does happen occasionally but it is a very rare occurrence to see someone enter low sec with a freighter. It isn't even a question worth asking really it is so obvious. Their is 0 advantage to using low sec for trade right now, what requires thought and actually being at the keyboard in lowsec is done in hisec without you even being there at the cost of only 5 extra jumps. (some posts later) You say that it would increase the price of all goods but how exactly would that happen? You have to provide some justification, otherwise it is a completely baseless and irrelevant statement since this change would only increase the price of certain goods in certain areas.
There's plenty of people in FW space, though it may not always be the kinds of fights you are looking for. Also the only relevant means of low sec trade is Black Frog.
Your argument is flawed, that just because jump freighters are expensive and take a bit to get into means that no one will train them, or that the ones who have the skills for one won't consider hopping in one. If anything it will mean increased alts trained for them, the market is not going to simply stop just because the means got a little harder. That doesn't mean regular freighter pilots are going have an epiphany that they must take their freighter through low sec.
I realize you have said before that you don't like jump drives, but jump freighters are a major reason why null sec entities can behave the way they do, and also why very few people fly freighters in low sec. If each empire was on an island there would be virtually no meaningful trade travel between regions; only those with jump freighters or the money to consistently use Black Frog would ever move anything of notice on a large scale between hubs. That's great for those already established and Black Frog because supply goes down and demand should stay about the same, prices rise, and thus makes it harder for newer players to play. How much would prices rise?
Based on some napkin math and looking at trade volumes in Amarr, the increased use of JFs to carry the same amount of goods in volume between hubs, assuming that regular freighters are around full, meaning 3 JF trips for each freighter trip, would increase the DEMAND of isotopes by __20-30%__.This is only counting what is hauled through _Red Frog_ since I don't know how much is hauled outside of it. This would put more pressure on null sec alliances to mine their own fuel AND export their ice to high sec (high sec ice, when mined perfectly from EVERY site spawn, provides 80% of EVE's _CURRENT_ fuel usage, the MINIMUM amount of increased isotpoe demand makes that to 67%.) This will encourage some indy corps to migrate out of high sec into null to mine ice. Most likely this will mean some trillionairs get 15 mackinaw alts and hell bubble some backwater systems. Due to the high opportunity cost of mining in null sec (which would almost certainly be increased because of the knowledge that fuel demand has gone up by a great margin, thus more possible hunting/harassing of mining ops), null alliances will charge more for their exported ice, increasing Black Frog costs, increasing trade costs between null<-->high and high<-->high all without seeing the presence of normal freighters traveling through low to be ganked.
Speculate all you want about the prices this will imply, but a minimum of 20% (let's be generous and say 15%) increased isotope usage is not something you can just brush off as a side effect.
This is more than just jump freighter fuel costs rising, this directly intertwines into BPO research, capital, T2, T3, and drug manufacturing costs. I'm sure there are plenty of other facets of EVE affected that aren't covered by my explanation of what would likely happen. This is also not counting what might happen with the shifting supply/demand of particular isotopes. Everything would become more expensive everywhere, thus quite possibly less PvP due to lack of funding or production ability due to fuel constraints.
The only way this change would cause growth in low sec is creating a few more Rancers for Black Frog routes and the occasional freighter lemmings who didn't get the memo, only the first week of this change would produce many freighter kills after witnessing Burn Jita 2.0. I imagine there would be more instalocking camps and low sec intel channels being marginally more useful. |

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1525
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 21:04:00 -
[808] - Quote
Yandros Soban wrote:To compensate, using the highway gates will be free of charge until all problems have been ironed out. I think they've been ironed out. Where's the toll booth??!!
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Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
63
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 22:10:00 -
[809] - Quote
+1
Make the game crazier! It's already been 10 years, let's do it. |

Heather Tsukaya
Feather Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 23:14:00 -
[810] - Quote
I think this would be neat. |
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