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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 2.0

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 45 post(s)
1Of9 Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion 93	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:00:00 - [31] - Quote I like the proposed chances, and as a massive dual-rep armor tank old-stype nerd that i am, would like to point out: 1) dont let this nullify the potential mix of dual / triple reps, i mean, having dual "normal" reps + one Ancillary Armor Repairer if player wants to, and run all at once 2) If you are limiting the Ancillary Armor Repairer to a single unit per ship fitted, i dont think 225% bonus is enough, considering that on top of the reload time for cap boosters, and on top of cap boosters been a vital part of any active tank setup, taking in account the size they have and current cargo bay sizes, i would think a bit more "humph" would be a good idea 3) dont make them too hungry for cpu/power, any active tank setup is already super tight, usually we cant fit the ship without a cpu/grid rig or implants, if this module is "too" hungry it will basically means death to the normal reps.. just dont make them too hungry on fittings please. 4) Will there be a T2 variation? 5) maybe implants to affect this module and his shield variant? 6) How will this module be affected by ship bonus (kronos/hyper for example) and by boosters? (drugs)
Lord MuffloN Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 59	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:01:00 - [32] - Quote These changes are great Fozzie, but have the numbers been run so this won't break any active armor pvp fit that dares use anything above electrons for Gallente ships, if they use the new rig?
B'reanna Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 10	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:01:00 - [33] - Quote if the rigs now effect the power grid amount for reps are you going to be adjust power gird of the mods/ships? also while a aar with rigs might come some what close to the rep of a single asb the asb still has the option of having more than one. if the goal is to get better burst tanks on armor ships i think this still has some work to go. as the asb dosnt use/need riggs to increase its rep amount and thus can use those slots for other things. this armor rep will almost require some of the rep amount or rep overheat rigs to compare at all. while i like the new mass skill and the reductions of mass on some of the plates why not the 1600 as it is the one predomiantly used? lastly the different dynamic on the aar as far as rep and cap boosters is interesting and probably a better mechanic than the current asb one.
Elise Randolph Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 979	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:01:00 - [34] - Quote :thumbsup: ~
Milton Middleson Rifterlings Damu'Khonde 222	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:02:00 - [35] - Quote Quote: Reduce the mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20% Is the intent here to create a sort of light armor/heavy armor dichotomy, wherein you can either go for max brickage with a heavy plate or have a fragile armor tank and not lose much speed? Also, are there any ambitions to do something about the fact that 50/100mm plates are borderline useless, or the fact that past cruiser size, buffer modules stop scaling?
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 116	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:02:00 - [36] - Quote Very mad. I don't like cap boosters at all. Can't you just nerf buffer tanking loads, triple the cap drain amount on nosferatu and make them easier to fit? Also put a meaningful penalty on shield rigs and extenders.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13735	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:02:00 - [37] - Quote Liking it so far. Will think on it more. CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Xenuria The Scope Gallente Federation 688	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:02:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Xenuria wrote: I have a question, what about 1600mm Plates? Why are they excluded from the bonus? I personally never use anything smaller than those for plates. The fact that nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400mm plates is why they are excluded from the bonus The 800mm and 200mm change is to help narrow that gap a bit (I know it doesn't narrow it all the way) and the 50mm change is there just to keep OCD people happy. 1600s still get the benefit of the new skill. So.... Do they benefit or don't they? You said "The fact that nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400mm plates is why they are excluded from the bonus " Then you said "1600s Still get the benefit of the new skill." Which is it? Also if your logic behind not including 1600s in the bonus is anywhere along the lines of "Too many people use them" then I have some bad news for you. That is called being spiteful and is not what I have come to expect from CCP. That is the sort of reasoning that Blizzard uses when they nerf something or buff something else. "Nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400m" is NOT an acceptable argument and falls in line with the whole "Stop liking what I don't like" mentality that I came to eve to escape from. EDIT: I see you have updated the OP. I understand now what you are doing and why. You had me concerned for a moment. So you are incentiveising using other plates without spiting those that choose not too. Carry on. CSM 8 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero
Freighdee Katt Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 78	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:03:00 - [39] - Quote It looks like these changes will nicely address burst tanking and armor fit agility. How about the resist / rep bonus disparity? Are there plans to buff normal reppers across the board or raise all hull rep bonuses to 10% to address the problem that local rep bonuses are widely viewed as too weak and useless compared to active shield and resist bonuses?
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 467	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:03:00 - [40] - Quote I kinda groaned when i read Ancilliary... But they are different and they seem to be more... Fun.. although they kinda mean you're going to need a massive amount of cap boosters <.< What we really need now is a significant buff to the NOS...

Atomic Option Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness 33	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:03:00 - [41] - Quote AAR looks very cool for PVP. You mentioned not wanting to unbalance PVE armor tanking. I would argue that when looking at the premier PVE hulls it's either decidedly weaker or the ships themselves are unbalanced. Especially when comparing similar class hulls instead of drake vs dominix. This becomes even more true when looking at cap stability and damage output that are very important to min/maxing for PVE. Do you feel that armor tanking in PVE is currently balanced vs shield tanking, or are you hoping to do some follow up to balance armor tanking more generally at some point?
Ammzi Infinite Covenant Tribal Band 1299	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:06:00 - [42] - Quote Harbinger, here I come quote CCP Spitfire "Hello Im Blue,"
Freighdee Katt Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 78	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:08:00 - [43] - Quote Allison A'vani wrote: This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps. I have to say, the speed > powergrid penalty swap thing does appear likely to blow a crap ton of armor fits off the table. Bye bye to anything but the tiniest guns on any armor fit at all. Powergrid is a penalty typically applied to weapon fitting, not defense. This is going to be a double kick in the nuts for already grid tight fits with large plates or reppers. Shield rigs basically look "free" after this, since they don't hose your fit, but "only" hit you with a sig radius penalty, which is not that much of a penalty in many cases.
IamBeastx Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 38	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:09:00 - [44] - Quote Xenuria wrote: You said "The fact that nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400mm plates is why they are excluded from the bonus " Then you said "1600s Still get the benefit of the new skill." Which is it? Read his post again. Some plates have a decreased mass penalty. All plates have a new appropriate skill to further reduce mass penalty.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 116	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:09:00 - [45] - Quote Freighdee Katt wrote: Allison A'vani wrote: This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps. I have to say, the speed > powergrid penalty swap thing does appear likely to blow a crap ton of armor fits off the table. Bye bye to anything but the tiniest guns on any armor fit at all. But that's how it already is.
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 467	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:10:00 - [46] - Quote Freighdee Katt wrote: Allison A'vani wrote: This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps. I have to say, the speed > powergrid penalty swap thing does appear likely to blow a crap ton of armor fits off the table. Bye bye to anything but the tiniest guns on any armor fit at all. One thing, I really cannot see a reason why you would fit 2 vanilla reppers rather than a ancil and a vanilla. Like, sure it will rep a bit less once it runs out of charges but surely its massively worth that?
Mizhir Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 2905	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:11:00 - [47] - Quote Ohh sweet, but 2 things: Medium and large armor reppers already takes alot PG, with the new rigs that increase their PG it will just be even harder to fit ships for dualrepping. What about speed rigs? The armor penalty will still prevent armor ships from using them. What I got in mind is active tanked gallente ships, the penalty will just reduce their buffer too much. The AAR is a very brilliant idea. Both different and still very useful. +1 Alice Saki for CSM!
Xenuria The Scope Gallente Federation 688	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:12:00 - [48] - Quote IamBeastx wrote: Xenuria wrote: You said "The fact that nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400mm plates is why they are excluded from the bonus " Then you said "1600s Still get the benefit of the new skill." Which is it? Read his post again. Some plates have a decreased mass penalty. All plates have a new appropriate skill to further reduce mass penalty. Yeah for a moment I was worried but as always CCP ends up being the benevolent overlords I hoped they would be. CSM 8 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero
IamBeastx Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 38	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:13:00 - [49] - Quote Garviel Tarrant wrote: Freighdee Katt wrote: Allison A'vani wrote: This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps. I have to say, the speed > powergrid penalty swap thing does appear likely to blow a crap ton of armor fits off the table. Bye bye to anything but the tiniest guns on any armor fit at all. One thing, I really cannot see a reason why you would fit 2 vanilla reppers rather than a ancil and a vanilla. Like, sure it will rep a bit less once it runs out of charges but surely its massively worth that? Increased PG issues from active tanking a Hyperion AND increased cargo space needed for cap boosters to run the AAR, no thanks.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2745	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:13:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Armor Rigs New rig called the Nanobot Overcharger that increased the overheat bonus on your local armor reps by 30% (40% for T2). So with one of the T1 rigs overheating gives the rep 13% more rep amount and 19.5% faster rate of fire instead of the default 10% and 15% respectively. This effect is stacking penalized and gives no bonus when the reps are not overheated. Same calibration and build costs as a Aux Nano or Nanobot Acc rig. Change the penalty on all active armor rigs (Aux Nano Pump, Nanobot Accelerator, and the new Nanobot Overcharger) to increase the powergrid use of local armor reps by 10% instead of reducing ship velocity. Are you going to go back and adjust the fittings space on ships expected to active armor tank? Active tanked ships frequently have to drop to Electrons already, and now I guess we'll be left with undersized weapons? Quote: Plates Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) This skill affects all plates and is unconnected to the stat change listed below. Reduce the base mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20% Alright, sounds good. Quote: Ancillary Armor Repairer Not the same mechanic as the ASB, please read to the end. Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper When not loaded with a cap booster, has 3/4 the rep amount as a T1 Armor Repairer Loaded cap boosters triple rep amount (so reps 2.25x a T1 repairer when loaded) Same cycle time as T1 reps Same capacity, charge restrictions and reload time as an ASB, but the longer cycle time of armor reps means it goes longer between reloads Limited to one per ship That's interesting. Quote: Why not just buff all armor reps? One of the aspects I really like about the ASB is that it allowed CCP to decouple burst tanking from sustained tanking in a new and interesting way. Burst tanking is key for most PVP active tank scenarios while sustained tanking is more common for PVE. We wanted to carry that aspect over to armor tanking, allowing us to create new burst tanking gameplay without making current sustained tanking gameplay overpowered. I disagree with this reasoning. The ASB is one of the worst modules you've ever introduced into the game, and I feel it adds nothing that nanite repair paste and overheat wouldn't have already added. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

TijsseN NED-Clan Goonswarm Federation 4	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:14:00 - [51] - Quote The armor upgrades skill is a welcome skill to improve the mobility of armor fleets.
MashXX Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 14	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:14:00 - [52] - Quote As someone who flies mostly armour tanked frigates, thank you, these changes sound awesome.
Drew Solaert Wildcard Inc. 254	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:14:00 - [53] - Quote My Brutix just got a boner. I lied :o
fukier RISE of LEGION 737	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:16:00 - [54] - Quote and what about the rep bonus working for imcomming RR? i think thats the one thing missing from this boost. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Freighdee Katt Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 78	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:19:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: The fact that nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400mm plates is why they are excluded from the bonus Maybe that's the reason you should just take the other sizes out of the game and buff the ones people actually use instead . . . People prefer these sizes because when you're fitting for buffer you want the most buffer you can fit, and these are the "biggest" you can get on in the relevant ship classes. People put MSEs on frigates and LSEs on everything else, leaving SSEs to have not that much use really, once your fitting skills are up. You might as well buff SSEs for no apparent reason just because nobody uses them either. The problem here is that the "biggest" buffer modules we have are fittable on less than the biggest classes of ships, so you have pretty wide range where nothing else makes sense to use. Of course that's going to make them look "overused."
Heimdallofasgard Apex Overplayed Coalition Fatal Ascension 398	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:19:00 - [56] - Quote Just reading over these changes again... my beloved ishkur fit will not be possible after these changes due to a PG issue... here's how it currently sits: Fit And that's with ions :( ... looks like I'll have to refit to electrons post patch :( Kick Heim... MATE
GeeShizzle MacCloud 271	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:20:00 - [57] - Quote the new skill will be mandatory for anyone flying an armor doctrine definitely. most of the changes seem to be pointing towards making armor fit ceptors with an AAR on be comparable to their shield equivalents. most armor fleet fits arent concerned with active tanking so most of the rig changes wont affect them. But these changes are more for small scale armor pvp, and redress the dichotomy of small scale ASB tank pvp vs the equivalent armor forms. would be interesting to see what can be done with the celestis now! can see it being very popular in small scale burst-armor tanking pvp.
tgl3 Wormhole Engineers Greater Realms 250	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:20:00 - [58] - Quote With regards to the AAR - "Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper" Does this also include when being "fuelled" by a cap booster? If so, that means that cap boosters only fuel the increased rep amount, right? Member of the EVE Blog Pack - Through Newb Eyes Twitter - TG_3
Vilnius Zar Ordo Ardish 661	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:21:00 - [59] - Quote I'd like to know the reasoning to limit the AAR to one per ship while not limiting ASB in the same way, "it's different" is not a reason in and of itself and there needs to be a balancing logic behind it. Not saying I'd want to have more AAR per ship but rather that I'd like ASB to be limited to 1. Also fitting those AAR in combination with those new rigs is going to be hilariously difficult for some ships to a point where they simply can't do it. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything. Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 3309	Posted - 2013.01.21 19:22:00 - [60] - Quote Heimdallofasgard wrote: Just reading over these changes again... my beloved ishkur fit will not be possible after these changes due to a PG issue... here's how it currently sits: Fit And that's with ions :( ... looks like I'll have to refit to electrons post patch :( These changes would only increase the PG need of that fit by between 0.5 and 0.25 (depending on your armor rigging skill). Still fits. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie




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