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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 2.0

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CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 3267	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:33:00 - [1] - Quote Is my title pretentious enough? We've got the resources all properly committed so I'm now ready to share with you all our initial plan to fix some of the biggest problems that face armor tanking in this game. Sorry for the extended period of teasing, hopefully the happy ending will make it all worthwhile. I was going to go into this big spiel about all the problems with armor tanking in general and active armor tanking in particular, but you all know this so I'll jump straight to the interesting bits. Here's what we're looking for feedback on: Armor Rigs New rig called the Nanobot Overcharger that increased the overheat bonus on your local armor reps by 30% (40% for T2). So with one of the T1 rigs overheating gives the rep 13% more rep amount and 19.5% faster rate of fire instead of the default 10% and 15% respectively. This effect is stacking penalized and gives no bonus when the reps are not overheated. Same calibration and build costs as a Aux Nano or Nanobot Acc rig. Change the penalty on all active armor rigs (Aux Nano Pump, Nanobot Accelerator, and the new Nanobot Overcharger) to increase the powergrid use of local armor reps by 10% instead of reducing ship velocity. Plates Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) Reduce the mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20% Ancillary Armor Repairer Not the same mechanic as the ASB, please read to the end. Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper When not loaded with a cap booster, has 3/4 the rep amount as a T1 Armor Repairer Loaded cap boosters triple rep amount (so reps 2.25x a T1 repairer when loaded) Same capacity, charge restrictions and reload time as an ASB, but the longer cycle time of armor reps means it goes longer between reloads Limited to one per ship Quick Q&A about the AAR: Why limited to one per ship? The longer time between reloads is a big part of the playstyle we wanted to give the AAR, but that with multiple copies would completely negate the burst tanking ideal. In addition, there is more of a tradition of lowslot tanking modules restricted to one per ship so I made the call that in this case the restriction would be worthwhile. The ASB debate is a separate issue unconnected. Please note that nothing is preventing current dual or triple rep fits from swapping one of their reps into an AAR. Why keep the cap use consistent? The elimination of cap consumption when loaded is a huge advantage of ASBs, but we decided with the AAR to build the strengths in another direction, focusing on greater stability instead. In addition, one downside of the ASB's zero cap use is the inability of one player to influence the tank of another through neuts. This works ok for the ASB but I am not inclined to expand that mechanic further. Why not just buff all armor reps? One of the aspects I really like about the ASB is that it allowed CCP to decouple burst tanking from sustained tanking in a new and interesting way. Burst tanking is key for most PVP active tank scenarios while sustained tanking is more common for PVE. We wanted to carry that aspect over to armor tanking, allowing us to create new burst tanking gameplay without making current sustained tanking gameplay overpowered. So we are very interested in hearing your feedback on this proposal. Expect at least most of these changes to make it into the next Sisi build for playtesting (the AARs might not catch this upcoming build but they should at least be in the one after that). Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

DJWiggles Eve Radio Corporation 35	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:43:00 - [2] - Quote NOICE!!!!!!!!!! comments coming soon Live on Eve Radio Wednesdays 20:00 GMT with me & friends blabbering on about Eve and stuff-áFollow me on twitter http://twitter.com/WigglesGRN, like me on facebook http://facebook.com/wigglesGRN or check out my blog http://wiggles.gamingradio.net/blog
Destoya Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 50	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:43:00 - [3] - Quote Does the nanobot overcharger work on capital reps?
Two step Aperture Harmonics K162 3125	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:44:00 - [4] - Quote So much for catching up to you in likes.... CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Oddsodz Explorer Corps Exhale. 37	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:44:00 - [5] - Quote Hyperion pilots rejoice
Xenuria The Scope Gallente Federation 688	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:44:00 - [6] - Quote I look forward to experimenting with the potential uses of this. CSM 8 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 3275	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:45:00 - [7] - Quote Destoya wrote: Does the nanobot overcharger work on capital reps? No, although I'm hoping to do a more focused pass on capital tanking at some future point with one of the goals being to make bonuses consistent between capital and non-capital reps (without breaking everything) Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

TruthState Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion 15	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:46:00 - [8] - Quote Upset about 2k8 nano nerf. Fix nanos, not my fault most of the eve player base is ******* as and ccant take a ** up the ***. In short go ** icelandic *, fix nanos. danke inb4 suspension
Blake Armitage Procyon Holdings 143	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:47:00 - [9] - Quote Gallente love! I hope to see a drone UI rework soon(tm).
Bienator II madmen of the skies 1452	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 - [10] - Quote sounds all very interesting, two things which came in my mind while reading: - faction plates should be revisited. they have been forgotten as the T2 plates where balanced - wouldn't a "Ancillary Resistance Booster" be more interesting for armor as a ancillary reper? cool stuff! certainly looking forward to the changes a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked


CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 3284	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:48:00 - [11] - Quote TruthState wrote: Upset about 2k8 nano nerf. Fix nanos, not my fault most of the eve player base is ******* as and ccant take a ** up the ***. In short go ** icelandic *, fix nanos. danke inb4 suspension This is the wrong thread friend. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

NUXI7 B0rthole Test Alliance Please Ignore 122	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:49:00 - [12] - Quote When are you gonna give us hull tanking rigs?

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 3284	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:49:00 - [13] - Quote Bienator II wrote: sounds all very interesting, two things which came in my mind while reading: - faction plates should be revisited. they have been forgotten as the T2 plates where balanced - wouldn't a "Ancillary Resistance Booster" be more interesting for armor as a ancillary reper? cool stuff! certainly looking forward to the changes - All faction stuff is in need of a balance pass, however I cannot give a date for such. - ARB would be very powerful but I didn't want to buff armor resistance tanking in fleets further than it already is Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

Xenuria The Scope Gallente Federation 688	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:49:00 - [14] - Quote I have a question, what about 1600mm Plates? Why are they excluded from the bonus? I personally never use anything smaller than those for plates. CSM 8 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero
Heimdallofasgard Apex Overplayed Coalition Fatal Ascension 398	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:51:00 - [15] - Quote You had me at "Nanobot Overcharger"... Changing the active armor rig penalty from speed to PG is amazing... it's going to make those small active tank ships so much more nimble, myrm, thorax, brutix, proteus... can't wait to try out a deimos or vigilant with these! Not sure about the AAR just yet... triple the active rep amount of a t1 repper sounds quite a lot... guess it'll be balanced if deemed OP... are the AAR's affected by the Active armor tank rigs as well? Kick Heim... MATE
Legash Silden Reliables Inc THORN Alliance 0	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:51:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Plates Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) Reduce the mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20% If i'm reading this correctly, 1600 plates are unaffected by the new skill? That would definitely be a small step towards making other plates viable - though tbh 1600s will most likely still dominate.
Calmoto Magellanic Itg Goonswarm Federation 16	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:51:00 - [17] - Quote Hopefully the change in active rigs isnt some terrible slight of hand to get people to use the new rig by no longer allowing triple rep/dual rep setups i like the myrm as it is

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 3284	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:52:00 - [18] - Quote Xenuria wrote: I have a question, what about 1600mm Plates? Why are they excluded from the bonus? I personally never use anything smaller than those for plates. The fact that nobody uses anything other than 1600mm and 400mm plates is why they are excluded from the bonus The 800mm and 200mm change is to help narrow that gap a bit (I know it doesn't narrow it all the way) and the 50mm change is there just to keep OCD people happy. 1600s still get the benefit of the new skill. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

IamBeastx Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 38	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:52:00 - [19] - Quote So your screwing over active tanking armor ships by limiting there PG for weaponry: Or are you changing the PG requirements of repppers. I see no changes to buffer fits, we gonna still be fat and slow when we fit trimarks/resists. This over complicated AAR does not entice me to active armor tank anything with a small cargohold.
MainDrain 7th Deepari Defence Armada 115	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:53:00 - [20] - Quote You mention that it decreases the mass penalty of 800mm plates and smaller, why not 1600??

Luna Deos GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:53:00 - [21] - Quote Legash Silden wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Plates Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) Reduce the mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20% If i'm reading this correctly, 1600 plates are unaffected by the new skill? That would definitely be a small step towards making other plates viable - though tbh 1600s will most likely still dominate. I'm reading this as the plates get a flat mass reduction and the skill would add further reductions. Edit: to clarify, that the 1600 plates wouldn't change in the vanilla mass but the skill would skill affect them.
Destoya Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 50	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:53:00 - [22] - Quote What about the sad, sad 100mm plates?
Gothikia Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion 40	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:54:00 - [23] - Quote Do this, and my starfish is yours. Love the proposed changes. <3 Gothie
Two step Aperture Harmonics K162 3127	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:55:00 - [24] - Quote Legash Silden wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Plates Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) Reduce the mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20% If i'm reading this correctly, 1600 plates are unaffected by the new skill? That would definitely be a small step towards making other plates viable - though tbh 1600s will most likely still dominate. No, the skill effects all plates, and the listed plates get a base mass reduction as well (without the skill) CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 3284	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:56:00 - [25] - Quote Two step wrote: Legash Silden wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Plates Add a new skill to the game called Armor Upgrades. This skill reduces the mass penalty of all armor plates by 5% per level. (Int/Mem, rank 3, requires Mechanics 3) Reduce the mass penalty on all 800mm, 200mm and 50mm plates by 20% If i'm reading this correctly, 1600 plates are unaffected by the new skill? That would definitely be a small step towards making other plates viable - though tbh 1600s will most likely still dominate. No, the skill effects all plates, and the listed plates get a base mass reduction as well (without the skill) I have updated the OP to hopefully make that more clear. Game Designer \| Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

Roime Shiva Furnace 1735	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:57:00 - [26] - Quote Overheating rigs and AAR are simply genious, way more awesome than I could have expected. Small plate mass reduction and active rig penalty change <3 Hull bonuses affect AARs? -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Allison A'vani North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 6	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:57:00 - [27] - Quote Quote: Change the penalty on all active armor rigs (Aux Nano Pump, Nanobot Accelerator, and the new Nanobot Overcharger) to increase the powergrid use of local armor reps by 10% instead of reducing ship velocity. This makes the hyperion very hard to fit, also your new mod is not as good as two faction reps.
Christopher Hillan Sacred Templars Unclaimed. 3	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:57:00 - [28] - Quote Two thumbs up for this. I fly armor all the time and I felt bad because of the speed disadvantage, now that got fixed, and we got new reps to boot. Not bad CCP, not bad at all.
Hans Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance 3890	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:59:00 - [29] - Quote Ahhhhh, so THIS is what you had in mind for active armor tanking Fozzie. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
Akturous Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel 50	Posted - 2013.01.21 18:59:00 - [30] - Quote Changes seem mostly quite good, I like that there's some distinction between asb and armour rep. What size cap charges will the reps use? couple of points: Many active armour ships (myrm, hype, brutix) are very very tight on pg and will get even tighter post tiericide. Now that the rigs make the reps use more pg, the situation is going to be dire. Secondly, I really think you should stop adding support skills to the game, you keep widening the gap between old and new players, you need to REDUCE support skill training time and INCREASE ship and weapon skill training time, so maximising in a particular specialty is quicker instead of needing 20mill sp in support skills to get the maximum from your t1 frig, it's fracking stupid and not at all condusive to keeping new players.



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