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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2795
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:43:00 -
[421] - Quote
Shpenat wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Keko Khaan wrote:Well yea i can agree with this.. And yea maybe mass penalty is bit rough compared to sig penalty. But to give another skill that reduces its penalty while not giving anything to other.. Problem is, you can't compare shields and armor in a straight-up manner. For one, shields regen, armor doesn't. That alone invalidates a lot of direct shield vs armor comparisons. Now, if CCP added passive armor repair via some new nanite technology, then shield vs armor comparisons would work better, but the cost would be shield and armor tanking being completely homogenized. Then again, with AAR being added on top of ASB, arguably the two ARE getting homogenized regardless. But the AAR and the ASB are functionally different, which was a great idea to do, I like the AAR in both what it does and that it is different from the ASB. I agree. I like the mechanics behind AAR. But unlike ASB it does not solve the issue with armor tanking. ASB solved 2 issues: It gives nice burst tanking capability. It decoupled active tanking from capacitor use. It granted shield tanked ships neuting immunity (together with capless guns), It has slighly lower fiting requirements than T1 variant. AAR tend to solve just single issue: Give armour repairs burst tanking capability. No other issues people have are being addressed. The high PG requirements of medium and large repair fits (as you need dual rep at lest to be able to fight). Quite large capacitor usage on medium and large armour repair modules. And relatively weak amount repaired per second eve on bonused ships.
Decoupling active tanking from capacitor use was a huge giant massive clusterfuck of a mistake, not a "fix".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2796
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:45:00 -
[422] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:If you take the Brutix and throw one tech one MAR on it you get 363 reps per cycle overheated. Add three armor nano pumps and that goes to 478 overheated. So 478 * 2.25 * 9 cycles = 9680 repaired? Still sounds nice to me.
Putting one on a non bonused ship nets 7047 hp.
These are all dependent upon capacitor. If you don't have capacitor, you don't get the reps. I think it would be a huge mistake to think of the AAR as anything like a plate, as people do to ASBs. Then again, I would happily go about my day humming and singing if they deleted ASBs.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Apostrof Ahashion
Viziam Amarr Empire
45
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:46:00 -
[423] - Quote
Im liking this less and less. Actually, i hate it now.
Ancillary shield booster makes sense. It frees your mid slots from shield boosters and capacitor batteries and lets you fit ewar, tackle and all the other essential pvp stuff. It was needed to make active shield tanking in pvp more viable.
Where it stops making sense is when you realize that one X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster on a Maelstorm takes 200 cpu and 500 pg and tanks 390ehp/s, and one X-Large Shield Booster II with Heavy Capacitor Booster II and Shield Boost Amplifier II takes 325cpu and 2476pg, and tanks 328ehp/s. And also takes 3 mid slot not just one, and uses batteries much less efficiently. Ancillary Shield Boosters made older active tanking modules completely obsolete, even in pve since you can fit two of them, witch makes no sense considering they are made to free your mid slots.
Ancillary armor repairer on the other hand make no sense at all from the start. It does nothing new, does not free your slots etc. Since it uses cap you will still need capacitor booster in the mid slot, and they will both use the batteries from the same cargohold, so you can say it does the opposite, it gimps your other slots not free them. If you think armor repairers need boost why not just boost them and increase pg to compensate and prevent triple rep fits, instead of adding a module that does the same thing only better? Also the problem with armor tanking was never the rep amount.
So please drop the entire Ancillary armor repairer idea, focus on real problems with armor tanking. And Ancillary Shield Booster should not be better in every way than Shield Booster+Capacitor Booster+Shield Boost Amplifier, it already does enough by freeing those slots, it should not restore more ehp/s as well while taking 5 times less pg.
Also pg increase for armor rep rigs is gonna kill armor tanking in pve completely.
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Dzajic
110
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:56:00 -
[424] - Quote
I think its 10% penalty base and 5% with armor rigging at 5. Could have screwed up the math ofc. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
80
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:00:00 -
[425] - Quote
Dzajic wrote:I think its 10% penalty base and 5% with armor rigging at 5. Could have screwed up the math ofc.
It is, but a lot of mission runners (who benefit most from these rigs) are unlikely to be at level 5, and not many newer players will have those skills high on their list for maxing out, so my good old dual rep mission domi will not work for them, it simply won't fit. I just wanted to point out the baseline numbers so the true scale of a 'tiny' penalty can be seen without being glossed by high skills. |
Dzajic
110
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:08:00 -
[426] - Quote
PVE circumstances have to be 2nd tier priority. In PVP rigging skills at 5 are still a luxury, but level 4 is near mandatory. But its still a god damn tough hit on grid. |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
443
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:10:00 -
[427] - Quote
so the AAR is supposed to give armor burst tank like the asb but is also supposed to be the sustainable version of the asb?
Perhaps the new repairer should use nanite paste instead of cap boosters? I mean im supposed to carry not only cap boosters for my capacitor that I chew through quickly but now I need them for my tank? Also some details about the reload rate and charge sizes are seriously needed. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
443
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:13:00 -
[428] - Quote
Armor ships will still be kited by shield ships and do less dps. Armor ships need a new ewar module in order to counter speed, which is still the supreme stat in eve atm. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
80
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:15:00 -
[429] - Quote
Dzajic wrote:PVE circumstances have to be 2nd tier priority. In PVP rigging skills at 5 are still a luxury, but level 4 is near mandatory. But its still a god damn tough hit on grid.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Burst tanking is key for most PVP active tank scenarios while sustained tanking is more common for PVE. We wanted to carry that aspect over to armor tanking
The change to rig penalty is still very much part of the pve plan for armour reps with CCP, not 2nd tier at all. The AAR is the pvp bone, and it's turning out to be rotten from the outset. Any change that prevents the standard and absolutely necessary dual lar fit for missioning is going to create a massive outcry of rage not heard since the Jita riots.
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Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
443
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:17:00 -
[430] - Quote
Nikuno wrote: Any change that prevents the standard and absolutely necessary dual lar fit for missioning is going to create a massive outcry of rage not heard since the Jita riots.
No its not.
Get a 3% pg implant they are very cheap. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
485
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:18:00 -
[431] - Quote
Was about to get a titan in my pants but then I read:
"New skill"
"..increase PG for 10%"
"trimarks keep speed penalty"
"AAR" (as it stands)
And I got my internet feelings hurt Mr Fozzie !!
Base ideas are good but this does not fix the problem at it's core completely. Liang explained his point of view earlier and I can't do anything else than support his point of view. Again, your ideas are great, but do not fix the main problem. -á-á-á-á-á-á / |__|-á-á-á This is a tears cup, fill it !
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
395
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:20:00 -
[432] - Quote
I wonder if this is being overthought.
SARs are fine. Buff the repair rate of MARs and LARs so that they are similarly effective. Maybe modify them to take cap boosters as an optional fuel; that would free up the mid slot taken up by the nearly mandatory Capacitor Booster, but still fill the cargohold with cap boosters.
If you want to do something new with armor, here are couple of ideas:
1) Ablative Armor Repairer: Essentially a protection against alpha, an activated AAR soaks up armor damage up to its rated capability, then disperses the damage in an amount per cycle that is, say, 80% of a comparable repper, while chewing at least as much capacitor. This AAR does not take cap boosters as fuel. Any damage beyond its capability is applied immediately. Likewise, If it is turned off before it has dispersed, any pending damage is applied immediately. The AAR does not function as a normal repper; it only disperses damage from its buffer. (This may be a long shot, because it would require some tricky UI support, but I like the idea.)
2) Instead of having reppers heal at the end of the cycle, have them heal linearly, with 1/n of the total repaired amount repaired every second for n = the cycle time of the repper. Do likewise for remote armor reppers.
Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Rubi Jackson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:23:00 -
[433] - Quote
Very disappointed with the proposed changes. Please try harder.
Especially a new skill to train when you could just as easily change the stats without the skill. Still, Greed is Good, etc.
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zerquse
Outsiders. Fusion.
1
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:27:00 -
[434] - Quote
could you possibly make rep bonus dependant on the charge size you use. so it will scale with size and you dont have to mix cap boosters. example domi with cap injector so it requires 800's. but your gonna want to put 400's in that AAR. Then they must choose a longer running bust tank or a short super tank. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
80
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:28:00 -
[435] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Nikuno wrote: Any change that prevents the standard and absolutely necessary dual lar fit for missioning is going to create a massive outcry of rage not heard since the Jita riots.
No its not. Get a 3% pg implant they are very cheap.
Dominix pg with lv5 engineering = 11,250
PG Cost of rig changes to dual LAR fit with lv5 rigging skill = 722
3% implant gives extra PG = 337.5
Even a 6% implant wouldn't offset these changes with MAXIMUM rigging skills. That's an isk cost of 500,000,000 to end up in a worse position than you are currently. Can't see that being popular with newer pve'ers, and those are the ones CCP is trying to encourage to stay.
I love the removal of the speed penalty, that is so needed, but the replacement penalty makes the situation far worse for a far greater number of players, and that just can't go live to tQ.
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Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
11
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:29:00 -
[436] - Quote
CCP, you realy think that main problem with armor tanking vs shield tanking - active repair\shield boost? No. Problem is shield tank get all low slots free. And u can: fit damage mods, fit tracking enh, fit nano, fit PDS (its boots shield tank too, lol!) And only 1 "-" with shield tank. That you "need" 1 slot for prop module (in most situation). And what i can fit in med slots, if i want armor tanking? Armor ships have 3-5 med slots (3-4 most of them). Prop module, 1-2 points (that i cant use coz of distance>coz of speed>coz of armor tank>coz of mass) EWarfare... No damage mods, no module that "boost" my armor tank (like PDS).
Yeah, new AAR is cool and new rig is realy cool (with my "fast math" i calculated like ~3,5k armor repair with AAR on Hyper with 3 different rig for armor repair in overload mod) . But it still not the solution for armor tank gangs\CTA fleets (with CTA armor fleets still useful but not like "nagassssssss" or rokhs, megathrone? what is it? PVP Hyper in fleet? Srsly? Dominix? Is he alive in fleet pvp?).
So, why not give armor tank ships module is med slots, that will boost armor tank? Like PDS. Or special "damage mod" or smth else? |
Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
43
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:30:00 -
[437] - Quote
Long story short.
Losing PG is not worth it.
Only weapon rigs effect fitting and it should stay that way. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
451
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:39:00 -
[438] - Quote
I have had this bad idea about making passive modules low slots and active modules mid slots ( this would exclude and module that fits in a high slot) Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
96
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:55:00 -
[439] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:SARs are fine. Buff the repair rate of MARs and LARs so that they are similarly effective. Maybe modify them to take cap boosters as an optional fuel; that would free up the mid slot taken up by the nearly mandatory Capacitor Booster, but still fill the cargohold with cap boosters. There you go, a simple change that actually makes things better, with no new modules or skills. This way lie good things. |
Dzajic
110
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:57:00 -
[440] - Quote
But then you literally make them into armor ASB. And we don't want armor and shield tank to be same... for whatever reason, but everyone keeps saying we don't want that. |
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Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
396
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:08:00 -
[441] - Quote
Dzajic wrote:But then you literally make them into armor ASB. And we don't want armor and shield tank to be same... for whatever reason, but everyone keeps saying we don't want that.
Hmm. I was hoping for a contrast, in that the armor module that most closely resembled the burst tank of an ASB did not take cap boosters, while the module that most closely resembled the steady recharge of a shield booster did. Does that not come through? Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
37
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:09:00 -
[442] - Quote
Jane Schereau wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:I updated the OP with something that is connected but that I forgot to put in at first since it isn't a main part of the changes.
At the same time as these changes we'd be reducing the Incrusus rep bonus to 7.5% to keep things sane. The Incursus is already not sane when dual reped. That said, it would seem you simply reduced it to the standard 7.5% bonus instead of actually doing the math of what you would need to reduce it by to keep it as powerful. This is a huge nerf to the one of the few ships new players could use for pvp and still have a chance of winning a fight.
+1 to that, it's also a bad nerf because it assumes that every incursus will be fitted with a AAR, what happened to the strapline about an exciting variety of fits and more room for player specialisation. Please reconsider this Fozzie. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
486
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:29:00 -
[443] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:SARs are fine. Buff the repair rate of MARs and LARs so that they are similarly effective. Maybe modify them to take cap boosters as an optional fuel; that would free up the mid slot taken up by the nearly mandatory Capacitor Booster, but still fill the cargohold with cap boosters. There you go, a simple change that actually makes things better, with no new modules or skills. This way lie good things.
This could be something to dig. And also because sooner than latter you'll need 12 slots for active tanking + some dmg mods
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
490
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:31:00 -
[444] - Quote
The other armour tanker .. the venerable Punisher with its 'OMGOPtrollolol' resist bonus would be made completely redundant with AAR, rigs and Incursus 10% bonus ..
7.5% rep/lvl is roughly equal to 5% resist/lvl for the purposes of active tanking, which is the topic du jour, so with the reduced bonus they ought to be equal, right? WRONG!
Incursus has that godly third midslot (3 on armour frig is huge) that can make it all but immune to cap warfare whereas the Punisher gets a utility high for the, by comparison, grossly ineffective nos. No amount of range advantage (which is non-existent on frig level without range bonuses) can compete with an unbreakable tank.
So here is the thing: Incursus gets to keep its 10%/lvl but has a mid-slot moved to high rack, AAR and rigs are implemented as suggested and Punisher moves the high-slot to the midrack .. blasters don't really need the web after they had the tracking bumped.
Short: Burst tanking will break the balance unless repair bonuses are either nerfed into the ground or replaced with something else .. case in point: ASB .. those damn things find their way, even after being nerfed, onto everything with three mids or more, it is an abomination!
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:[This could be something to dig. And also because sooner than latter you'll need 12 slots for active tanking + some dmg mods So add a damage bonus to armour repairers, explain it with: "Excess energy from nano.manufacturering within repairer is shunted to weapons systems |
Apostrof Ahashion
Viziam Amarr Empire
51
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:36:00 -
[445] - Quote
Seriously the only major problem with armor is speed. Just make rigs give you %mass and not %speed reduction, so the penalty to propulsion speed will be slightly reduced for buffer tanks and considerably lower for active tanks that dont fit heavy plates. If you really think armor reps should get boost dont make a new module, especially not one so poorly designed, just boost reppers across the board and raise pg. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
38
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:37:00 -
[446] - Quote
why do we need a new skill to reduce the mass of armour? Why don't ccp make all armour 25% less massive.
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Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
80
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:43:00 -
[447] - Quote
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:Seriously the only major problem with armor is speed. Just make rigs give you %mass and not %speed reduction, so the penalty to propulsion speed will be slightly reduced for buffer tanks and considerably lower for active tanks that dont fit heavy plates. If you really think armor reps should get boost dont make a new module, especially not one so poorly designed, just boost reppers across the board and raise pg.
Not sure how well that would work, but it sounds like the sort of simpler fix we need. Some quick numbers
brutix + 10mn t2 mwd = 18,250,000kg add 3 active rigs at max rigging skill > 21,266,560kg
brutix + 10mn t2 mwd + 1600mm t2 plate = 22,000,000kg add 3 trimark rigs at max rigging skills > 25,467,750kg
I don't know how much difference that'd make to speed/agility - can anyone fill in the blanks? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
121
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:54:00 -
[448] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:blasters don't really need the web after they had the tracking bumped
you're funny |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
486
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:58:00 -
[449] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Short: Burst tanking will break the balance unless repair bonuses are either nerfed into the ground or replaced with something else .. case in point: ASB .. those damn things find their way, even after being nerfed, onto everything with three mids or more, it is an abomination! Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:[This could be something to dig. And also because sooner than latter you'll need 12 slots for active tanking + some dmg mods So add a damage bonus to armour repairers, explain it with: "Excess energy from nano.manufacturering within repairer is shunted to weapons systems
About ASB's: managed to tank about a dozen arty/autos cynas with a double xl-ASB sleipnir before nerf, couldn't take any of them down because they were getting reps but whatever, managed to tank all that incoming dmg until gate jump CD was ok, thy have never got in to more than half armor and were probably overheating their guns... felt ridiculously OP, but whatever.
My semi joke about armor tanking slots is quite obvious with the number of low slots required to effectively set your resists without even add a single plate or rep Not only you can't fit a single dmg mod but on top you'll have to fit the lowest tier weapons on your ship.
I was almost happy at the beginning of this thread, but answer after answer I'm starting to think this is the bad way to balance armor if you need even more skills and even more mods. And adding insult to injury those mods are not replacing them but will be required on top of the old ones.
Rather see the older mods revisited and fixed, adjust affecting skills rigs/mods drawbacks. It's not a good solution to fix armor tanking than add more skills to train and stuff to fit when you have already hard time doing it now.
Gò¡Gê¬Gò«n+ên+¦n++n+¦n+ëGò¡Gê¬Gò«-á don't haten++ |
Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
10
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Posted - 2013.01.22 19:13:00 -
[450] - Quote
Warning: Wall of text incoming.
First things first: Thank you Fozzie for actually reading all this stuff and taking criticism serious. I must say, I really like your new way of doing things in close contact to the playerbase.
Now, since I believe one should not try and fix stuff before even knowing what's wrong with it, I would like to take some time to think about the problems of active tanking, and active armor tanking in particular. From my persepctive as a solo and small scale PvP'er, there are two kinds of armor tanked ships that are viable to use:
1) Those that have damage mitigation and maneuverability. Examples for this are an Enyo or a dual rep SFI. You don't take huge amounts of damage because of your small signature and an active tank doesn't slow you down as much as plates would. Main problems with this are the speed penalty of armor rigs but mainly vulnerability to neuts, jamming, and snipers. Such ships also tend to have low dps because the grid, CPU, and slot requirements of an armor tank are high. And low dps is obviously bad since you want to kill something before that enemy Falcon arrives that surely is already on its way.
2) Those that tank absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage, so you can just stand at a gate and deaggo when too many hostiles are coming your way. This is most notably done in Maelstroms, but also Myrmidons, Vindicators and other ships. This playstyle works fine for those who have all the tools at their hands, such as combat boosters, warfare links, and expensive implants. Mostly crystals come to mind, but slaves or a Numon Family Heirloom are also really useful. For a rather new player, however, this is almost impossible to do.
Of course, there are also other types of armor tanking ships that work, but i think almost all of them are somewhere between these two extremes.
Now, since everyone seems to agree that something should be done to help active armor tanking be more popular, what could be done to achieve this?
To help with style (1), I suggest reducing cap consumption, fitting requirements, heat generation, and tick rate of armor reps. (Reduce rep amount so hp/second stays the same.) This would have a lot of positive effects. There would still be a notable difference between shield and armor tanking: Shield tanks would offer higher tank numbers but require more cap while armor tanks would have less raw hp/second but be more sustainable in the long run and less vulnerable to neuting. Your intended rig changes also wouldn't hurt fittings that work well now since reps would use less grid in the first place.
To help with style (2), you should make the tanking power of a ships less dependent on additional bonuses. The only way I can think of to achieve this is by making the modules themselves more powerful but at the same time, nerf warfare links, booster drugs, and pirate implant sets. For example, you could increase the hp/second of all reps and shield boosters by 60% but reduce the tank multiplier of a fully skilled Legion/Tengu to 1.5x and also reduce the bonus of Blue Pills, Exiles, and crystal implants by maybe 25%. Then, in the end, you would have almost the same tanking numbers that are possible today but newer players without all the resources would actually also be able to actually get a decent tank out of their ships.
Concerning the AAR: I think it's a bad idea. The introduction of the ASB showed that it is near impossible to balance modules that are so similar to already existing ones. First the ASB was so powerful that no one would use normal shield boosters anymore. You went on to nerf it, now it's damn near useless. I'm afraid the same thing is going to happen here. The way you describe the AAR, it would be better than a normal armor rep in almost any pvp situation, so the only reason to still use a normal armor rep is because you can't fit multiple AARs. This doesn't sound like good balancing to me.
Kyang. |
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