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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Galatea Galilei
Profoundly Inquisitive Exploration
14
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:46:00 -
[241] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Only medium armor repairers scale poorly (as evidenced by the need to fit triple reps on the Myrm to make it a competitive ship)... It's not even competitive. That gets it into tanking range of a shield-tanked Myrm, but it then does ridiculously low damage compared to the shield Myrm (which still tanks a bit more DPS while fitting three Drone Damage Amps). It's really, really sad that a Myrm with every single low slot, every rig, and half it's med slots devoted to tank still doens't quite tank as well as a shield-tanked Myrm with half of its low slots devoted to Drone Damage Amps. The only reason anyone ever armor-tanks a Myrm is they foolishly read the description and thought that rep bonus should get used, but never actually ran the numbers.
The large armor reps aren't that great either, even fitting requirements aside. |
Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:53:00 -
[242] - Quote
So... What about if you aren't active tanking? Passive armour rigs still absolutely gimp your mobility. The mass reduction skill is great, and the 800mm Plate buff is good, but the real problem is the velocity penalty for being Armour rigged.
Also, Cruisers need their own Rig category, it's gotten to the point that putting two Field Extender rigs on a Caracal costs more than the Hull itself (meanwhile, Medium Trimarks cost 2m each, hint hint), it costs roughly as much to lose a Drake as it does a Caracal once you factor in Insurance. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
965
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:53:00 -
[243] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:General Foom wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:It will fit if you skip the plate. You will get about 1300 out of each of your 9 cycles. Hummmmm..... I need to play with it. -Liang Ed: Still kinda skeptical. But I'll withhold judgment. dudes the new Brutix has 7 lows and 50 extra grid I must have missed the +2 low slots. -Liang
7-4-6 there was only +1 low slot for a total of 17 slots. I have accounted for the 50 extra grid. You need a +3 implant for the fit. |
Styledatol
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
18
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:58:00 -
[244] - Quote
"Lets add more skillbooks, because its easier than balancing existing stuff."
Also, since you're doing this, why not cover all angles and work on capital armor tanking too? I don't get this half-baked job mindset. |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
298
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:00:00 -
[245] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:ghost st wrote:I mean if you look at turret tracking, speed (well Transvaal) is much more important than signature radius. You can have a high sig radius but be relatively unaffected if you can still move. But if you cant move, even a ludicrously small sig radius wont help you. A 10% speed penalty and a 10% increase in sig radius have an identical effect on the tracking calculation. Of course, it's not quite that simple. Mass doesn't affect nominal max speed, but it does significantly affect agility and max speed under prop mod. For added fun, the % affect to max prop mod speed is less than the % affect to the ship's mass, though it gets closer the greater the mass of your ship. In contrast, an increase in sig has no affect on ship handling, though it does also make the ship easier to lock. You're bad.
Hint: In addition to being incorrect on tracking (given that sig radius only matters if your sig radius is less than the sig res of the guns), armor rigs penalize speed, not mass.
DarthNefarius wrote:As an Incursion PvE armour fleet pilot I'm unimpressed with everything announced here narrowing the differences between shields getting thier reps at the beginning of thier cycles and being to load up on damage mods in thier lo's... they even have a tracking enhancer mod which goes in the low too which is the equivenant of the tracking computer mod in the mid.
I think the TC vs. TE comparison is something that really needs to be looked at given that one is active and one is passive.
@Fozzie:
I see a lot of people saying the exact same thing that I said: no new skills, no new modules, just start making some basic balance tweaks to EXISTING modules and rigs before introducing new stuff. Any reply? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2780
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:14:00 -
[246] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: 7-4-6 there was only +1 low slot for a total of 17 slots. I have accounted for the 50 extra grid. You need a +3 implant for the fit.
Sarcasm doesn't transmit well over the interwebs, I guess. ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Shaak'Ti
Shirak SkunkWorks
2
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:16:00 -
[247] - Quote
Quote: @Fozzie:
I see a lot of people saying the exact same thing that I said: no new skills, no new modules, just start making some basic balance tweaks to EXISTING modules and rigs before introducing new stuff. Any reply?
EXISTING modules are good.. just learn to use. Who cry because shield better, should use shield tank.. and who cry because armor is better, should use armor. Who can play, know which tank better in different situations, and can use it too. Doing more way of tanking make the game more EXITING! |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
397
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:18:00 -
[248] - Quote
nothing I see here will prompt people to think twice about skipping shield / kiting fits imo, especially for solo/small gangs. You have to do something about the speed or if you keep armor fits slow, you need to really buff something else. like DPS projection or better tanking How the **** do you remove a signature? |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
72
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:18:00 -
[249] - Quote
Styledatol wrote:"Lets add more skillbooks, because its easier than balancing existing stuff." Yes. Instead of adding new skills, just reduce the mass penalty to all plates by 20% across the board.
The "light armor" (50, 200, 800) vs "heavy armor" (100, 400, 1600) idea is a good one; just reduce these further, perhaps 40-45% compared to live. Then, the question is "you can get *some* tank and be quick, or you can get a lot of tank and be slow--which do you choose?"
Seriously, though, no new skillbooks!
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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
609
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:20:00 -
[250] - Quote
Roime wrote:I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by
- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway) - reducing armor rep fitting costs - reducing armor rep cap usage - increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%
This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.
This
This
This
/wishing i could put more than +1 There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly |
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Shaak'Ti
Shirak SkunkWorks
2
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:28:00 -
[251] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:Roime wrote:I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by
- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway) - reducing armor rep fitting costs - reducing armor rep cap usage - increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%
This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.
This This This /wishing i could put more than +1
! WARNING !
Carebears crying for permatanks !
Burst tanks FTW !
AAR made for PvP... hell yeah.. go back to your rainbowland with your shiney fitting farmers :P |
Cypher Decypher
xLegion of the dammedx.
17
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:37:00 -
[252] - Quote
I'm all for adding new skills. We have enough modules. Edit: Add skills for using Deadspace/Officer mods... |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.01.22 03:47:00 -
[253] - Quote
Shaak'Ti wrote:awesome.. but I think there is one more little thing to make active armortanking in line with active shield tanking..
..teh pirate implant set If you're going to do that then shield users will demand a pirate implant set for buffer shields. Bringing them in line in terms of balance =/= make them identical.
In terms of my general thoughts:
Personally I think these changes are fine and at the very least any additional buffs should only be released aftering seeing how these current changes affect armor tanking. Some of the additional buffs people here are asking for I feel will not balance armor tanking but will make armor tanking superior to shield tanking. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:00:00 -
[254] - Quote
Galatea Galilei wrote:Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Only medium armor repairers scale poorly (as evidenced by the need to fit triple reps on the Myrm to make it a competitive ship)... It's not even competitive. That gets it into tanking range of a shield-tanked Myrm, but it then does ridiculously low damage compared to the shield Myrm (which still tanks a bit more DPS while fitting three Drone Damage Amps). It's really, really sad that a Myrm with every single low slot, every rig, and half it's med slots devoted to tank still doens't quite tank as well as a shield-tanked Myrm with half of its low slots devoted to Drone Damage Amps. The only reason anyone ever armor-tanks a Myrm is they foolishly read the description and thought that rep bonus should get used, but never actually ran the numbers. The large armor reps aren't that great either, even fitting requirements aside. Shield Myrm sacrifices on either tackle (which gives it more DPS) or on the ability to permatank. Less EFT, more actual PvP please.
Large Armor Reps aside from their fitting requirements are fine with only a few number tweaks. No where near the ridiculous buffs the post I was replying to proposed. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
965
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 04:04:00 -
[255] - Quote
I say absolutely to the new mods and rigs. They offer fantastic opportunities. The new skill I'm kind of 'meh' about. You could just lower the mass of 400 and 1600 plates by 25% and all others by 45%.
I understand all too well that the 100m+ SP crowd needs new skills to train. But they need new skills at the top of the pyramid. I have always felt like there was a giant leap between BS and caps for example. And there is lots of room to flesh out the cap field. (After you burn them and supercaps to the ground and start over in that area of course.) |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
75
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:11:00 -
[256] - Quote
Gotta say, I am intrigued by the changes.
I'm now even more interested in seeing what happens with the Hype and the Domi when you get around to balancing Battleships.
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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
610
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:20:00 -
[257] - Quote
Shaak'Ti wrote:Zyella Stormborn wrote:Roime wrote:I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by
- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway) - reducing armor rep fitting costs - reducing armor rep cap usage - increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%
This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.
This This This /wishing i could put more than +1 ! WARNING ! Carebears crying for permatanks ! Burst tanks FTW ! AAR made for PvP... hell yeah.. go back to your rainbowland with your shiney fitting farmers :P
*chuckle* This is what you got from that? Troll on with your oddly named self. ;)
There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:20:00 -
[258] - Quote
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:Gotta say, I am intrigued by the changes.
I'm now even more interested in seeing what happens with the Hype and the Domi when you get around to balancing Battleships.
Battleship changes are going to be far less drastic. I'm guessing they're mainly going to just remove the difference in stats between the various tiers. Phoon will be changed to a missile boat and I think either the Raven will be buffed by giving it more slots or large missiles in general will receive a significant buff. |
Roosevelt Coltrane
Rupakaya
15
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:29:00 -
[259] - Quote
Armor rep bonus is still horrible and likely wasted on anything above Frig. These changes don't address that at all. |
Brinxter
Bite Me inc Bitten.
13
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:32:00 -
[260] - Quote
Roime wrote:I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by
- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway) - reducing armor rep fitting costs - reducing armor rep cap usage - increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%
This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.
I have to agree with this. Why add even more skills, to an already skill intensive way of tanking, PLUS adding more modules, without fixing what you already have? This does nothing to decrease the disparity between armor and shield tanking. |
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Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
107
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:35:00 -
[261] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Why keep the cap use consistent?The elimination of cap consumption when loaded is a huge advantage of ASBs, but we decided with the AAR to build the strengths in another direction, focusing on greater stability instead. In addition, one downside of the ASB's zero cap use is the inability of one player to influence the tank of another through neuts. This works ok for the ASB but I am not inclined to expand that mechanic further.
So the module uses cap loaded or not then, the charge just makes it rep more (correct me if I'm wrong please)? Interesting, the only thing I can think of is that since you can't rep while neuted out, so you will still need a regular cap booster but you'll still want the smaller charges in the AAR and the large charges in the booster. Not necessarily a problem in itself I think unless you're really pressed for cargo space. I'm sure my dealer will approve of my worsening addiction to cap charges, but it sounds nice as you can tank very hard early in the fight when damage is highest and kinda try to coast out with whatever you have left once the AAR is empty if you shut off the auto-reload.
In the meantime, this makes the armor rep amount bonus on Gallente battlecruisers more appealing to me so now the question is if you are not going to give that bonus to both of them which do you take it off of? Honestly I can't decide which one I would like to see lose it and there's a case for either one so if necessary I'll close my eyes while you flip a coin.
In any event I love my new toys, good changes overall and I get happier every time I see a new sticky thread in Features and Ideas. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2782
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 04:40:00 -
[262] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:I say absolutely to the new mods and rigs. They offer fantastic opportunities. The new skill I'm kind of 'meh' about. You could just lower the mass of 400 and 1600 plates by 25% and all others by 45%.
I understand all too well that the 100m+ SP crowd needs new skills to train. But they need new skills at the top of the pyramid. I have always felt like there was a giant leap between BS and caps for example. And there is lots of room to flesh out the cap field. (After you burn them and supercaps to the ground and start over in that area of course.)
The introduction of Black Ops was good because it gave a subcapital reason to train for jump skills. We need more things like that and less intermediary support skills. I still haven't finished training the last round of skills. :(
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Violous
Vae Caudex Corporation
3
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:47:00 -
[263] - Quote
Firstly Awesome Job. You Fozzie thanks for being a hero at ccp. Seriously with all the witch hunt/rage threads(guilty myself) I think people rage when its off and when you guys nail it the response is.......ok cool whats next? So at least from me Thank You for the hard work.
Now this
"Change the penalty on all active armor rigs (Aux Nano Pump, Nanobot Accelerator, and the new Nanobot Overcharger) to increase the powergrid use of local armor reps by 10% instead of reducing ship velocity. Note this is increasing the PG use of the reps by 10% (or 5% at Armor Rigging V) not decreasing the total PG of the ship."
I think that you should look at the PG of this when compared to that of lazorz esp beams, i know meds got downgraded a bit (10%) but with this it can make some modules (beams) more useless than they are now.
Or maybe not just my .02, I think you have earned at least some trust by doing such a great job so Ill shut up and let you do what you think is best. |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
176
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Posted - 2013.01.22 04:59:00 -
[264] - Quote
Initial reaction:
AAR - gives a 68% bounus over current T2, but you're limited to 1 per ship. Plus it uses more cap boosters, when the only (large) active armor tanks are the hyperion and the myrmidon. Which both currently run triple rep setups, as that is the only way that active armor is actually worth it - otherwise it just has too little rep amount. Remove the limitation of 1 per ship and this might be useful. That would allow a triple rep myrm/hyperion to do the same with only needing 2 reps. As it is, still need 3 reps to be actually useful. Still doesn't have enough rep power for just one rep to be worthwhile, except maybe on frigates (which I don't fly).
The new armor rig - 20% bonus to rep amount and 30% cycle time when overheated. This causes a T2 armor rep to rep for 960 in 10.5s base. Compare this to an aux. nano pump and overheating. 1012 armor repped over 12.75s. Similar for nanobot accelerator (except cycle time instead of amount). This comes out to a 15% bonus over the standard, but only when overheated. Possibly useful, will withhold judgment.
Change to armor rig penalty. Meh - you are a smidge faster, but use more PG. But active armor repping still too bad to be worthwhile in most cases.
Reduction in mass from plates. Plated ships still fat and slow. Net effect - everyone will still try to fit a 1600 on everything that can, but they will now be marginally more agile, but still not enough to actually catch shield tanked ships.
Overall - Not impressed with changes. Come back to us when you have some changes that may actually be useful to show us.
-Arazel |
Calsys
Monks of War
78
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Posted - 2013.01.22 05:21:00 -
[265] - Quote
t1 - 240 armor boost t2 - 320 armor boost
ancilary armor rep - 540
are you f****ing kidding?
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Sekket
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
45
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Posted - 2013.01.22 05:45:00 -
[266] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:fukier wrote:
how come you avoid talking about scaleability of active armor rep bonus and how its useless in fleet warfare?
its an easy fix just make the skill affect external incomming armor RR!
presto now the bonus is usefull for anything larger then 5 ships!
And also super overpowered.
Are resist bonused boats OP when they are remote repped? - CQ isn't a refuge, it's a cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE |
Vae Caudex
Vae Caudex Corporation
0
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Posted - 2013.01.22 05:48:00 -
[267] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:Galatea Galilei wrote:Coming from a PvE perspective, active armor tanking is not unusable, but it's so bad relative to shield tanking that I can easily fit a cap-stable shield tank on my Myrmidon that tanks more DPS than a cap-stable twin-MAR armor tank, even though the Myrm has bonuses for armor tanking! You're better off ignoring the bonuses and fitting a shield tank to maximize your sustained tank.
The new rig only helps when overheating, and besides I can't very well use it when I need three CCC rigs, two cap rechargers, and a cap power relay just to make the dual MAR fit stable. The other rig changes just remove the speed penalty, and do nothing to affect the fact that even a twin-MAR setup on a bonused ship doesn't heal as much damage as a passive shield tank on a ship that doesn't even have resist bonuses.
The proposed changes don't seem to come anywhere close to putting a dent into the inferiority of armor tanking... Pretty much this. This whole set of changes seems like just throwing a weird, needlessly tweaky and kinda useless new module and yet another batch of one-off "must train to V" skills at the problem instead of just making a balance pass on the fundamentals. If you wanted to get armor tanking back on track, you should have been looking at fundamentals like: - Having the rep hit at the start instead of the end of the cycle - Making standard reppers run faster with the same cap use, or just rep more - Buffing hull active rep bonuses across the board to 10% - Buffing base armor resist values across the board to give armor tanking some sort of basis for seriously competing with shield features like passive recharge and dual/triple/quad/lolASB tanking If you wanted to get clever dealing with the speed disparity, how about something really nice like a role bonus for some hulls that negates 80% of the armor rig / plate speed penalty for the designated buffer tank / PvP boats? As it is, this doesn't feel like "balance" at all, just a random set of things that will bring a bunch of unintended consequences, aggravate the already out of control SP bloat that is going on with the "rebalancing," and not even touch the fundamental issues that have been discussed over and over here for ages. This^ |
TOJICTOTA
True Power Team
19
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Posted - 2013.01.22 05:50:00 -
[268] - Quote
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Shaak'Ti
Shirak SkunkWorks
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 05:51:00 -
[269] - Quote
Many of people in here still don't understand what is tha main concept of these new stuffs and changes.
It's not a boost for armor reps in your favourite ratting ships.. (u get the resistance shifting stuff for it) It's not a boost afterall.. it's introducing the burst tanking style into armor tank.
With these new stuff you can boost your tank for a short while, on the cost of long time (perma) tanking. It's your choice when fitting, you made a long time permanen tank, or a burst tank, which tank harder when u need it.. ofcourse in PVE it's useless like ASB.
I only can repeat myself, it's made for PVP(!!!!).. Who don't do PVP can't understand what the hell is this, and why it will be awesome.
oh, and the cry about new skill: if u compare shield skills with armor skills, u can see there are more skill points needed for max your shield skills.. maybe until now.
(btw I'm a 100M+sp so i like new skill.. almost out of subcap skillz ^^) |
progodlegend
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
40
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Posted - 2013.01.22 05:52:00 -
[270] - Quote
progodlegend wrote:Fozzie, can we please get the armor rep to occur at the beginning of the cycle, or the shield rep to occur at the end of the cycle? One or the other, but right now, Armor tanking and shield tanking become further and further unequal the larger the fight gets, and once TiDi kicks in, shield tanking has a massive advantage with shield logi getting their reps in almost instantly.
If TiDi is here to stay, and I think its a great addition, than something needs to change with the armor reps and shield reps occuring at opposite ends of the cycle.
What is your opinion of this? I can show some pretty interesting evidence as to why shield tanking is just massively overpowered compared to armor tanking whats TiDi kicks in, especially at high TiDi levels.
Since i'm the only one talking about this, and this thread is filled with people talking about significantly more illrelevant things, I'm just going to keep quoting this massive issue until a dev reads it or more people who have some sense read it and keep posting the same thing. If you have some sense and know how massively unbalanced the difference between shield tanking and armor tanking can get at TiDi levels, then feel free to help me out by posting this message as well. |
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