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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
34
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:24:00 -
[391] - Quote
Dear CCP Fozzie,
Instead of introducing a new skill for armour tankers and widening the power gap between old and new (starting) players why not adapt the hull upgrades skill that most players will have already trained to a significant level:
"Hull Upgrades
Skill at maintaining your ship's armor and installing hull upgrades like expanded cargoholds and inertial stabilizers. Grants a 5% bonus to armor hit points per skill level."
SImply change to:
Skill at maintaining your ship's armor and installing hull upgrades like expanded cargoholds, armour plates and inertial stabilizers. Grants a 5% bonus to armor hit points and a 5% reduction in mass for fitted plates per skill level.
Job Done. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
975
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:27:00 -
[392] - Quote
Keko Khaan wrote:Well yea i can agree with this.. And yea maybe mass penalty is bit rough compared to sig penalty. But to give another skill that reduces its penalty while not giving anything to other..
Problem is, you can't compare shields and armor in a straight-up manner. For one, shields regen, armor doesn't. That alone invalidates a lot of direct shield vs armor comparisons.
Now, if CCP added passive armor repair via some new nanite technology, then shield vs armor comparisons would work better, but the cost would be shield and armor tanking being completely homogenized. Then again, with AAR being added on top of ASB, arguably the two ARE getting homogenized regardless.
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Dzajic
109
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:28:00 -
[393] - Quote
Just to note, with OH rigs currently off the table, only change conventional active armor tank receives is trading a lot of grid for some speed. |
Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
40
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:28:00 -
[394] - Quote
I have to say that this proposal is underwhelming.
Which to say is uncharacteristic of you Fozzie.
You and your co workers managed to bring Faction warfare to the forefront of PvP
You then made useless and redundant ships become not just useful but also unique, creating endless possibility's and a fresh atmosphere for the average PvPer
some people (including myself) would that it was your teams work that was the best part of Retribution.
But this just does not look healthy , i would prefer you took a better look at Armor tanking in both its active and buffer forms and do a real re vamp of the way armor plays. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
449
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:30:00 -
[395] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Keko Khaan wrote:Well yea i can agree with this.. And yea maybe mass penalty is bit rough compared to sig penalty. But to give another skill that reduces its penalty while not giving anything to other.. Problem is, you can't compare shields and armor in a straight-up manner. For one, shields regen, armor doesn't. That alone invalidates a lot of direct shield vs armor comparisons. Now, if CCP added passive armor repair via some new nanite technology, then shield vs armor comparisons would work better, but the cost would be shield and armor tanking being completely homogenized. Then again, with AAR being added on top of ASB, arguably the two ARE getting homogenized regardless. But the AAR and the ASB are functionally different, which was a great idea to do, I like the AAR in both what it does and that it is different from the ASB. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
36
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:35:00 -
[396] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Larger reply is still coming but I just want to quickly note that we're pulling the Overheating rig from this proposal until further notice.
As always thanks for all your comments on it. I started off with an early mistake with this rig and we're not going to re-add it unless it's properly balanced.
Too bad. I just calculated that with 3 of these T2 rigs, an overheated Repper would actually have had a NEGATIVE cycle time. And I believe THAT would have caused a severe disruption in time-space that might have been used to create wormholes to Jove space... :-(
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Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
303
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:39:00 -
[397] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:Eternal Error wrote:Hint: In addition to being incorrect on tracking (given that sig radius only matters if your sig radius is less than the sig res of the guns), http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damageMissile damage is capped at a % = sig res / explosion velocity. Do you have a reliable reference stating something similar for guns? Eternal Error wrote:armor rigs penalize speed, not mass. True. But plates penalise mass. And everything else I stated is still true. I don't want to de-rail the thread, but there's a similar topic up in ships and modules right now titled "target painter vs. web vs. tracking computer". You are technically correct that it is not capped. Realistically though, it's not that big a deal.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Larger reply is still coming but I just want to quickly note that we're pulling the Overheating rig from this proposal until further notice.
As always thanks for all your comments on it. I started off with an early mistake with this rig and we're not going to re-add it unless it's properly balanced. Thank you. Please consider scrapping all new module/rig/skill/etc. ideas until you work on balancing existing ones. I think you're trying to come up with big ideas and make big changes when it's simply not necessary. Additionally, a small tweak here and there is all you need to let people know that you understand the issue and are working on it. These balance issues have been around for years, we're not going to freak if you don't fix it all at once.
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Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
271
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:39:00 -
[398] - Quote
To be honest. All rigs should have their penalty removed and the bonus you get from them linked to the level of the skill you train for it.
I mean why not? The drawbacks on rigs on the whole tend to be stupid. Also there is so much imbalance between the rigs. Some rigs are far too good while others are just underwhelming |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
121
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:40:00 -
[399] - Quote
Why do we even still have 50mm plates? If you're plating a frigate it should be a 200mm or 400mm or it's a wasted slot.
still waiting on tristan rep bonus btw |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
449
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:42:00 -
[400] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:To be honest. All rigs should have their penalty removed and the bonus you get from them linked to the level of the skill you train for it.
I mean why not? The drawbacks on rigs on the whole tend to be stupid. Also there is so much imbalance between the rigs. Some rigs are far too good while others are just underwhelming In one of the other balancing threads someone mentioned the idea of a 20% reduction per rigging level instead of 10% per level, both improving the effectiveness of rigs and making there a reason to train them to level 5 Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
449
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:43:00 -
[401] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Why do we even still have 50mm plates? If you're plating a frigate it should be a 200mm or 400mm or it's a wasted slot.
still waiting on tristan rep bonus btw POWNAGE rookie ships Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
31
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:44:00 -
[402] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Keko Khaan wrote:Well yea i can agree with this.. And yea maybe mass penalty is bit rough compared to sig penalty. But to give another skill that reduces its penalty while not giving anything to other.. Problem is, you can't compare shields and armor in a straight-up manner. For one, shields regen, armor doesn't. That alone invalidates a lot of direct shield vs armor comparisons. Now, if CCP added passive armor repair via some new nanite technology, then shield vs armor comparisons would work better, but the cost would be shield and armor tanking being completely homogenized. Then again, with AAR being added on top of ASB, arguably the two ARE getting homogenized regardless. But the AAR and the ASB are functionally different, which was a great idea to do, I like the AAR in both what it does and that it is different from the ASB.
I agree. I like the mechanics behind AAR. But unlike ASB it does not solve the issue with armor tanking.
ASB solved 2 issues: It gives nice burst tanking capability. It decoupled active tanking from capacitor use. It granted shield tanked ships neuting immunity (together with capless guns), It has slighly lower fiting requirements than T1 variant.
AAR tend to solve just single issue: Give armour repairs burst tanking capability.
No other issues people have are being addressed. The high PG requirements of medium and large repair fits (as you need dual rep at lest to be able to fight). Quite large capacitor usage on medium and large armour repair modules. And relatively weak amount repaired per second eve on bonused ships. |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
36
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:46:00 -
[403] - Quote
Another comment on speeding up reppers:
1) as long as there is a fixed maximum conversion rate between cap and armor points, there will be a limit to how powerful these things become (measured in cap). In general that is an interesting mechanism. Making active Armor Tanking viable for PVP. Maybe Energy Transfer will play a greater role. Neuts aswell as they effectively kill armor.
2) I am a bit worried about the addition of more and more Skills that do not come cheap. While it's a good thing to have more things to train for veterans and it emphasizes specialization, I feel like recently added skills are a bit too narrow and expensive. Compare things like Armor Upgrades, Target Spectrum Breaker Amplification and Radar Sensor Compensation to Skills like Engineering and Navigation regarding usefulness. Ok, the Sensor Compensation skills could be healed by turning Sensor Strength into general E-War resists. Anyway. Off topic.
3) Heat. I believe the effect of heat in overheating a tremendously accelerated repper decreases. Cycles become so short that cap will always run out or become the critical issue long before heat even starts building up.
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Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
42
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:47:00 -
[404] - Quote
Keko Khaan wrote:[ Well yea i can agree with this.. And yea maybe mass penalty is bit rough compared to sig penalty. But to give another skill that reduces its penalty while not giving anything to other..
Yes it would be more fair to give a skill that reduces sig penalty, a Yin to a Yang.
But no one would train it because it is not needed.
The helpless cry's of poor unfortunate shield tankers who got killed because their sig was slightly bigger are a little drowned out by the massive hoard of pissed off armor tankers who got decimated by yet another faster, better ranged, harder hitting shield ship.
But why so many oppose this idea is not because we as armor tankers think this is a unfair idea.
Its more to do with the fact that shield users already have it all and then have the cheek to say that they want more "cause the armor tankers have something" despite the context in which it is given.
Point being armor needs that skill, but shield does not need one.
Even if its a **** way of fixing a problem. |
Edward Olmops
Sirius Fleet
36
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:48:00 -
[405] - Quote
Shpenat wrote: No other issues people have are being addressed. The high PG requirements of medium and large repair fits (as you need dual rep at lest to be able to fight). Quite large capacitor usage on medium and large armour repair modules. And relatively weak amount repaired per second eve on bonused ships.
Not entirely correct. If some effect like the proposed rigs allow to GREATLY accelerate reppers, you might find a single repper sufficient. This also affects slots and PG usage. The only remaining issue is cap. But there is always a catch, isn't it? |
Jane Schereau
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:50:00 -
[406] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:I updated the OP with something that is connected but that I forgot to put in at first since it isn't a main part of the changes.
At the same time as these changes we'd be reducing the Incrusus rep bonus to 7.5% to keep things sane.
The Incursus is already not sane when dual reped.
That said, it would seem you simply reduced it to the standard 7.5% bonus instead of actually doing the math of what you would need to reduce it by to keep it as powerful.
This is a huge nerf to the one of the few ships new players could use for pvp and still have a chance of winning a fight. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
450
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:51:00 -
[407] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:Shpenat wrote: No other issues people have are being addressed. The high PG requirements of medium and large repair fits (as you need dual rep at lest to be able to fight). Quite large capacitor usage on medium and large armour repair modules. And relatively weak amount repaired per second eve on bonused ships.
Not entirely correct. If some effect like the proposed rigs allow to GREATLY accelerate reppers, you might find a single repper sufficient. This also affects slots and PG usage. The only remaining issue is cap. But there is always a catch, isn't it? Well a skill to reduce cap usage would be nice. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Shpenat
Pafos Technologies
31
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:56:00 -
[408] - Quote
Edward Olmops wrote:Shpenat wrote: No other issues people have are being addressed. The high PG requirements of medium and large repair fits (as you need dual rep at lest to be able to fight). Quite large capacitor usage on medium and large armour repair modules. And relatively weak amount repaired per second eve on bonused ships.
Not entirely correct. If some effect like the proposed rigs allow to GREATLY accelerate reppers, you might find a single repper sufficient. This also affects slots and PG usage. The only remaining issue is cap. But there is always a catch, isn't it? Unfortunately the overheating rig is being removed for now. So no single repper fit viable (except for small size). |
Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
42
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:57:00 -
[409] - Quote
Its funny how i go for a **** then go get another beer and in that time we are onto a new page
I was planning on playing eve today, now im way more enthralled by this fourm. |
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
112
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:08:00 -
[410] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:Keko Khaan wrote:[ Well yea i can agree with this.. And yea maybe mass penalty is bit rough compared to sig penalty. But to give another skill that reduces its penalty while not giving anything to other..
Yes it would be more fair to give a skill that reduces sig penalty, a Yin to a Yang. But no one would train it because it is not needed. The helpless cry's of poor unfortunate shield tankers who got killed because their sig was slightly bigger are a little drowned out by the massive hoard of pissed off armor tankers who got decimated by yet another faster, better ranged, harder hitting shield ship. But why so many oppose this idea is not because we as armor tankers think this is a unfair idea. Its more to do with the fact that shield users already have it all and then have the cheek to say that they want more "cause the armor tankers have something" despite the context in which it is given. Point being armor needs that skill, but shield does not need one. Even if its a **** way of fixing a problem.
However on other note did you know tengus price has dropped in jita because all the alliances are selling their tengus and replacing that doctrine with different armor doctrines. Do you know that loki hull costs alot more than tengu hull? What does it tells? It tells next fotm will be armor tanked ships and ahacs specially i believe.
And whatever if this skill giving advantage to armor tanking goes trough you can be sure next thing il be proposing will be skill that reduces shield tanks sig penalty to balance shield tank vs armor tank untill we get one..
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Herren Varno
Perkone Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:12:00 -
[411] - Quote
I'm not taken by the AAR proposal, or the direction in general that this patch is proposing. Armour and Shield tanking should be built around different mechanisms to enrich the game. Making armour tanking work more like shield tanking is far too homogenising for my liking (and I feel there's something of a trend developing towards this with the recent rebalancing).
Rather than making armour tanking into a slightly different flavour of shield tanking, why not focus on a different set of strengths and weaknesses to keep it distinct.
Active shield tanks have great burst ability, particularly with ASBs, but the trade-off is that it's relatively short-lived. Active armour tanks should be durable, resilient and efficient, offering more hp the longer a fight progresses. I believe the balance could be redressed in a more enriching way by further embracing the Reactive Armour Hardener:
-RAH should be balanced to provide, on average, more ehp/s per GJ than a second repper (if that's possible).
-New named T1 variants with lower fitting and/or cap requirements than the meta 0 mod, but the same resistance pool. Easier for smaller ships to fit and use.
-New T2 RAH with a larger resistance pool; it could have a longer spool-up time, and/or greater cap/cpu requirements. This would be targetted at cruiser-sized ships and larger (less efficient than a second small repper but more than a medium/large perhaps?)
-Change the resistance shifting from linear growth to logarithmic - giving a quick initial shift, then tailing off the longer it is active. This would give some countering ability to changing incoming damage patterns (by resetting the RAH and getting a quick initial resistance shift).
Possible effects would be more viable single repper, or repper + smaller plate setups (more mobile, and less cap-hungry options than we currently have). Knowing when to reset the RAH would be a vital skill in active armour tanking, and a range of new tactics would need to be devised to overcome this kind of tanking. This should open the door to a lot of fights going initially against the armour tanker before slowly being clawed back into their favour (or not ofc.)
TL;DR Leave burst tanking to shield tanks, focus on the durability aspect of armour tanking to keep it distinct. Use the RAH to achieve this rather than adding another new mod. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
971
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:13:00 -
[412] - Quote
If you take the Brutix and throw one tech one MAR on it you get 363 reps per cycle overheated. Add three armor nano pumps and that goes to 478 overheated. So 478 * 2.25 * 9 cycles = 9680 repaired? Still sounds nice to me.
Putting one on a non bonused ship nets 7047 hp. |
Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
42
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:15:00 -
[413] - Quote
Keko Khaan wrote: However on other note did you know tengus price has dropped in jita because all the alliances are selling their tengus and replacing that doctrine with different armor doctrines. Do you know that loki hull costs alot more than tengu hull? What does it tells? It tells next fotm will be armor tanked ships and ahacs specially i believe.
And whatever if this skill giving advantage to armor tanking goes trough you can be sure next thing il be proposing will be skill that reduces shield tanks sig penalty to balance shield tank vs armor tank untill we get one..
All of which has absolutely nothing to do with shield ships having so much sig radus.
I am sure that the reason that power blocs are changing there doctrines not because the Tengu is shield tanked instead of armor tanked it is more to do with the nerf to HML's. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
481
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:18:00 -
[414] - Quote
Dzajic wrote:Just to note, with OH rigs currently off the table, only change conventional active armor tank receives is trading a lot of grid for some speed.
Its an absolutely TINY amount of grid.
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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
578
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:24:00 -
[415] - Quote
Reposting in a way that is hopefully better understood.
@Fozzie: a system where the same armor plates, shield extenders and shield boosters are used across multiple ship classes is just a bad system that makes it hard to balance things. You have almost no flexibility to adjust things.
Consider a system where each ship class gets real choice between two armor plates, two shield extenders, and cannot oversize its shield boosters. Then balancing becomes easy.
It could look like this:
"Reinforced Frigate Armor Plating" "Frigate Armor Plating"
"Reinforced Frigate Shield Extender" "Frigate Shield Extender"
"Frigate Armor Repairer" "Frigate Shield Booster"
"Frigate Ancillary Armor Repairer" "Frigate Ancillary Shield Booster"
Repeat this series for all ship classes (including destroyers and battlecruisers) and suddenly many balance problems would be easy to address.
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
451
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:29:00 -
[416] - Quote
The RAH needs to be more fluid to be used, as such is should shift resistances based upon the incoming damage % and not solely the damage type. Also it would need to be constantly check the incoming damage and adjust again Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Dzajic
110
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:30:00 -
[417] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Dzajic wrote:Just to note, with OH rigs currently off the table, only change conventional active armor tank receives is trading a lot of grid for some speed. Its an absolutely TINY amount of grid.
Please tell me how is 350 more grid per LAR II (if you fit 3 tank rigs) "tiny"? And that is with rigging 5. |
Rick Rymes
Caldari Advanced Technology Corporation
43
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:34:00 -
[418] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Reposting in a way that is hopefully better understood.
@Fozzie: a system where the same armor plates, shield extenders and shield boosters are used across multiple ship classes is just a bad system that makes it hard to balance things. You have almost no flexibility to adjust things.
Consider a system where each ship class gets real choice between two armor plates, two shield extenders, and cannot oversize its shield boosters. Then balancing becomes easy.
It could look like this:
"Reinforced Frigate Armor Plating" "Frigate Armor Plating"
"Reinforced Frigate Shield Extender" "Frigate Shield Extender"
"Frigate Armor Repairer" "Frigate Shield Booster"
"Frigate Ancillary Armor Repairer" "Frigate Ancillary Shield Booster"
Repeat this series for all ship classes (including destroyers and battlecruisers) and suddenly many balance problems would be easy to address.
Perhaps a better system is to remove the "mm" from plates and just organize them by small, medium, large and extra large like shield extenders.
But CCP is not developing a armor balance because of the way things are categorised.
As for forcing ships into specific mods is against what makes a sandbox, i can force a 10mn ab onto a dessie. it may not be great idea but it is possible. it just so happens that fitting larger plates/reps actual works. |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
80
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:39:00 -
[419] - Quote
Dzajic wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Dzajic wrote:Just to note, with OH rigs currently off the table, only change conventional active armor tank receives is trading a lot of grid for some speed. Its an absolutely TINY amount of grid. Please tell me how is 350 more grid per LAR II (if you fit 3 tank rigs) "tiny"? And that is with rigging 5.
350 pg? I see the penalty as 10% of rep pg per rig, so with 3 rigs the pg for a t2 LAR goes
2300 > +1 rig = 2530 > + 2nd rig = 2783 > + 3rd rig = 3061.3
That's an increase of 761.3 pg
For a centus x-type;
2800 > 3080 > 3388 > 3726.8
That's an increase of 926.8 pg
This is how all the rigs work currently, the bonuses and penalties are multiplicative, not additive
It's one thing to quote figures for an incursus with a single small rep but this penalty scales horrifically.
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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
578
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Posted - 2013.01.22 16:42:00 -
[420] - Quote
Rick Rymes wrote:
As for forcing ships into specific mods is against what makes a sandbox, i can force a 10mn ab onto a dessie. it may not be great idea but it is possible. it just so happens that fitting larger plates/reps actual works.
On the contrary, this would open up new possibilities. The game currently fails to provide meaningful choices because oversized modules are almost always the best choice. In concrete terms, a cruiser fit with a 1600mm plate is almost always better than one with a 800mm plate. Yet we cannot adjust these playes to give cruisers a real choice because the 1600mm plate is also used on other ships. Then the whole thing also has to be balance against shield extenders. The next lowest module is almost never a real alternative. Similarly, active armor tanking is simply inferior to active shield tanking. |
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